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The Divorce Expert: 86% Of People Who Divorce Remarry! Why Sex Is Causing Divorces! — Transcript

by The Diary Of A CEO · 26,905 words · 4,087 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00All marital problems stem from two
0:03things.
0:04And that's What about sex? How often is
0:08sex the issue in divorce? Oh my god.
0:11James Sexton, the world's number one
0:13divorce lawyer, specializing in
0:15billionaires, athletes, and celebrities
0:17for over two decades.
0:18Giving him a unique insight into how
0:21relationships fail and succeed. There's
0:24about a 56% chance that your marriage
0:26will end in divorce. Yet, 86% of people
0:29who remarry within 5 years.
0:31But most people have no idea what they
0:33are getting themselves into. And a great
0:35example of that would be Prenups. Who
0:38gets what when they break up?
0:39Correct. And the most shocking prenup
0:41I've ever seen said that for every 10 lb
0:44the wife gained, she would lose $10,000
0:46a month in alimony. 10 lb of weight. And
0:49that was enforceable. Do good money
0:51issues lead to divorce? Oh, it's
0:52controversial. What's the quickest
0:54someone's gone from marriage to divorce?
0:56To 48 hours. Who cheats more, men or
0:57women? You'll be shocked to hear it's
1:00Have you ever seen violence during a
1:01divorce? They ran her over four times
1:03and stabbed her. Jesus Christ. So here's
1:06the question then. Should we get
1:07married?
1:08And then do you think love is a terrible
1:09idea? I think it's insane to love
1:11anything. Because someday
1:15that'll be gone. And this thing's going
1:16to break my heart. No matter what I
1:19lose.
1:25But that's not a reason not to love. And
1:28I I think there's something really
1:30important there.
1:33Congratulations, Diary of a CEO gang.
1:34We've made some progress. 63% of you
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1:56Thank you and enjoy this episode.
2:02James, I've never spoken to somebody
2:04that does what you do.
2:06What do you do?
2:08I'm a divorce lawyer. I'm a divorce
2:09lawyer who
2:11represents people in contested divorce
2:14and custody proceedings in court. So,
2:16it's the fact that you've never spoken
2:18to someone who does what I do is a good
2:20thing. It It It means that either you've
2:22not married or it means that you've
2:23successfully married to the point where
2:25you would never end up in my office. By
2:26the time someone sets foot in my office,
2:29something's gone terribly wrong in their
2:31life because no one ever meant to meet
2:34me. No one ever meant to be in my office
2:36ever.
2:37What is the probability
2:39that someday I do meet somebody like you
2:41and not in this context?
2:43Well, if you marry,
2:45there's about a 56% chance that your
2:47marriage will end in divorce.
2:49Now, that doesn't take into
2:50consideration how many people may
2:52consult with a divorce lawyer because
2:54they're having difficulty in their
2:56marriage, but they choose subsequent to
2:58meeting me not to divorce for some
2:59particular reason, whether that's they
3:01don't want to part with half of their
3:02funds or they've just decided it's
3:04easier to stay miserable and with a
3:06person, or they're staying together for
3:08the kids, but they wanted to know what
3:09their rights were. So, if you marry, the
3:12the chances of meeting someone like me
3:14are are more likely than not if we look
3:16at it that way cuz it's more than 50%.
3:18So, it's a It's a high number, you know.
3:21But if we define failure as all of the
3:22other things you've described that where
3:23we kind of stay together but we're
3:24miserable or we stay together for some
3:26other reason,
3:27how what percentage of marriages
3:30on that basis do you think actually
3:32fail?
3:34I mean, if we consider the part If we
3:36consider failure staying together
3:38miserable for the children or staying
3:39together for financial economic reasons,
3:43and then we add that to the 56% that end
3:46in divorce, then I mean, it would be
3:48very hard to track that, but I I think
3:50it's generous to think it's another 20%
3:52probably. But but I mean think about
3:54what that adds up to. That means that
3:56you've got you've got something that
3:58fails 70, 75%
4:02of the time. That's a that's a negligent
4:04activity. That's you know, that's that
4:07is more likely than not to cause
4:09significant harm in your life. So I I I
4:12don't say that to sound like the Grim
4:14Reaper when it comes to marriage. I I
4:15actually really think marriage is a
4:17lovely thing and I get misty-eyed at
4:19weddings like anybody. Um and not just
4:21for you know, future business purposes.
4:24Um I I
4:25I I think I think the statistic that's
4:28even more interesting to me than how
4:31many marriages end in divorce or how
4:32many people stay together miserable
4:35is that 86% of people who divorce
4:39remarry within 5 years.
4:41So think about that. Now you've you've
4:44done this thing.
4:45It's
4:46failed.
4:47You've gone through this difficult
4:49process of having to undo it.
4:51And now within 5 years, 86% of people
4:55remarry. I mean so that that tells you
4:57how important this is to us as humans.
5:01How drawn to this idea, this technology
5:03of marriage we are. And and that to me
5:06is fascinating because
5:09I I've often said like I'm not sure what
5:11marriage
5:13was designed What problem is marriage
5:15designed to solve?
5:20See, the fact that it takes this long to
5:22think. If I said to you, what what
5:24purpose does this technology, this mug,
5:27what does it serve? Well, that's easy,
5:29right? It's hard to drink out of your
5:30hands and someone would have to keep
5:31coming up and pouring things in our
5:33hands. Okay, well, that's pretty
5:34straightforward. What what problem does
5:36this solve? Well, that's easy, right? We
5:38we don't want to get you know, the ring
5:39stains around and get yelled at by our
5:41significant other for not using a
5:42coaster. So these are easy things. But
5:44marriage, something so ubiquitous that
5:46it's assumed, it's assumed if you're
5:49dating someone for a few years and you
5:52say
5:53guess what, we're getting married.
5:55Everyone goes, of course, phenomenal,
5:57congratulations, that's great, of course
5:59you're going to do that. You know,
6:00you're making an honest woman of her, of
6:01course.
6:02Whereas if you say, you know, we we've
6:04been together for 3 4 years, we decided
6:06we're not going to get married, people
6:07go,
6:07what's wrong with this guy? He's got
6:09intimacy issues, he's not getting
6:10married, you know, what's the problem
6:11that you don't want to get married?
6:13Whereas
6:14rationally, the response should be, you
6:17know, oh yeah, we're getting married.
6:19What, are you kidding me? Why are you
6:20doing that? It's like someone saying I'm
6:21going to go skydiving, it's like, wait,
6:23are you crazy? That's a dangerous thing
6:26to do, you know, and it's not even, I
6:28mean, listen, skydiving, it's not like
6:29it's 75% 76% of people die who go
6:32skydiving. So, the truth is, like it it
6:35it makes very little sense to me
6:38that marriage is assumed to be a thing
6:42you will do when in fact we as a species
6:45are so unbelievably bad at it.
6:49That's sort of 86% that then get
6:51remarried after divorce.
6:54Are they then have they learned from
6:56their mistakes? Are they better at
6:57marriage?
6:57it's different.
6:59This time it's different. It's this time
7:02I'm really in love. That other time when
7:04I thought I was in love, that wasn't it.
7:06This time it's different. It really it's
7:08a it's it's a blind spot, you know, and
7:11again, where does it come from? You'd
7:13have to ask people smarter than me. You
7:15know, it could be neuroscience, it could
7:16be the realm of a real
7:19deep social psychology, it could just be
7:21a cognitive bias, I have no idea. It
7:23could be a delusion brought on by
7:24inadequate lighting.
7:26You know, but but the whatever it is, we
7:29go, oh yeah, but this one's different.
7:31This one I I did a pre-nup last week for
7:34a guy
7:35who went through the one of the ugliest
7:37divorces I've ever seen and that's not
7:39hyperbole. Like I've been doing this for
7:4125 years, just to say so for me to say
7:43the ugliest divorce I've ever seen is
7:45that's amazing. That's like that's a
7:48really big that's like a Michelin chef
7:51saying this was the best meal I've ever
7:52had. So this guy had a horrific divorce
7:55that lasted four or five years. He's
7:57remarrying a woman 30 years younger than
8:00him who he met
8:014 months ago.
8:03And when I said to him as artfully and
8:06tactfully as I could, you know,
8:09you you've only known this person for a
8:10short time and you know, have you
8:12thought about maybe just you know, being
8:14a little cautious in terms of what
8:16you've seen how difficult a divorce can
8:17be. You know, do you think maybe it
8:19might be he did I was oh no, this is not
8:22I've never felt anything like this. I've
8:24never been this in love. I've never been
8:26so connected with someone we just get
8:28each other.
8:29And you know, that that
8:31it would be very indelicate and rude for
8:34me to say like snap out of it man. You
8:37got to get your like really
8:39you know, bring your logical brain to
8:41this this equation. Do not bring the
8:43part of you that's just filled with
8:45romance and has Christmas in your eyes.
8:47Like really you got to look at this
8:49honestly.
8:51Do you see a lot of gold diggers?
8:53Do you see a lot of gold digger sort of
8:55um patterns? I you see someone that's
8:58incredibly wealthy. You see someone
8:59that's I don't know 40 years younger
9:01than them.
9:02Yeah. Yeah, I see a lot of that. I mean
9:04I
9:04you know, I'm I'm hesitant to say gold
9:06diggers because I think that has a a
9:08pejorative like built into it that that
9:11that somehow I think that that people
9:13bring different things to the table in
9:16relationships. I I I think love is an
9:18economy.
9:20And I don't I'm not saying that in a way
9:22that that devalues love. I think that
9:25love is a verb. I think that love is an
9:27emotion. And I think that love is an
9:29economy. You know, there there is a a
9:31giving and taking of value. And and that
9:34can be incredibly symbiotic. You know,
9:37they can be incredibly healthy and
9:38wonderful. That that you know, I am way
9:42too serious and the person who I'm with
9:44is going to bring lightness and levity
9:45to the relationship and I'm going to
9:47help them be a little more serious. And
9:49they're going to help me lighten up, you
9:50know? And I'm hard charging and hard
9:52working and everything's like 10 moves
9:54ahead and and my partner's going to like
9:57help me calm down and help me, you know,
10:00not be so hard charging and and be a
10:02little softer and be a little kinder and
10:04rest my head and give me a sort of warm
10:06place to do that. Like that's beautiful.
10:09We're each bringing something different.
10:10So, if I'm a powerful, hard working,
10:14financially successful, financially
10:16secure man and I meet a young, beautiful
10:20woman who has energy and excitement and
10:23who has tremendous gifts, but doesn't
10:26have the resources to be able to do much
10:28with that, you know? Like she's a
10:29talented artist, but you know, she's
10:31busy working, you know, a
10:33thankless, awful job, you know, like
10:35slinging cappuccinos, you know? And and
10:37she she's not able to in this prime of
10:40her life focus on this thing she's so
10:42talented at. And I can say to her, "Hey,
10:45listen, why don't you focus on that?"
10:48And I have resources, an abundance of
10:50them, and I'm happy to share them with
10:51you and and feel like I'm part of your
10:53success and you in turn are part of my
10:56success because you give me this
10:57wonderful respite from the chaos of my
11:00work and and like I don't think that
11:02that's a dishonest economy. I don't
11:05think that So, like to say a gold digger
11:07sort of implies like, "Oh, she's in it
11:09for the money." And it's like, "Okay,
11:10well, I'm in it for the beauty." You
11:12know, so does that mean I'm a horrible,
11:13shallow person or is beauty beautiful?
11:15Is beauty something you want to be
11:17around? And and if we're honest about
11:20the interaction,
11:22how is that predatory? How is that
11:24unfair to either of us? You know, if if
11:27we're honest about it. Like what's
11:29harder for me to deal with is when I
11:31have a client who is, you know, 150 lb
11:34overweight, 5 ft 7,
11:37um and and there is just nothing about
11:40him that aesthetically or even
11:42personality-wise
11:44a woman would go, "Oh, that's my guy."
11:46But he's a billionaire.
11:48You know, and and he's got a young,
11:50gorgeous woman who's allegedly madly in
11:53love with him, and he really believes
11:56that it's his personality.
11:58And it's nothing to do with the fact
11:59that he's a billionaire or that that is
12:01a very small consideration. That feels
12:03to me like the worst kind of of
12:06delusion, you know? Whereas, you could
12:08very honestly say, like, yeah, we each
12:10bring different things to the table, we
12:11each bring different things to each
12:13other's lives. And then yeah, so it is
12:16it is a {quote} {unquote} gold digger.
12:18But, you know, it's also a man who wants
12:22to to to buy the company of someone who
12:26might not otherwise be interested in him
12:28if he wasn't so successful. So, I think
12:30there's a there's a give-and-take in
12:32that relationship. I think that's very
12:33fair. Have you Have you seen examples of
12:35the the latter example where you know,
12:37you describe that billionaire where
12:38there's not many redeeming qualities
12:41where
12:43they're heading towards marriage,
12:45they don't yet have a pre-nup,
12:49you're maybe advising them that they
12:50should get a pre-nup, and they're not
12:52interested because they're so deluded by
12:54the belief that the person is interested
12:56in their wonderful personality or Yeah,
12:59so so the pre-nup conversation is a
13:01really interesting one because I I I do
13:04a lot of pre-nups. Just just to define
13:06what a pre-nup is. Sure, a prenuptial
13:07agreement is a contract between two
13:09people that defines the rule set
13:12essentially for their marriage. So, so
13:14marriage, when we talk about marriage,
13:16you know, people tend to just sort of
13:17use the word marriage, and they're
13:19actually talking about a number of
13:21different things. Like, in some contexts
13:23marriage is a spiritual commitment,
13:25right? It's a religious commitment. It's
13:27tied to In Catholicism, it's a
13:29sacrament. In in Judaism, it's a
13:32covenant with God, you know, in Islam,
13:34it has its own status. So, marriage
13:38exists as a religious concept. Socially,
13:42we have a definition of marriage, right?
13:44Like I am married to this person. We
13:45have married our destinies to each
13:47other. We have agreed that we are each
13:49other's person.
13:51And then, marriage has a specific legal
13:54definition.
13:55And my job as a divorce lawyer is to
13:58take that piece apart for someone or to
14:01create protections for people who are
14:03contemplating entering into that legal
14:05status. So, like, you you've been to
14:07weddings, right? I'm sure you've never
14:09at the end of the wedding said, um,
14:12"Great, guys. I had a wonderful time.
14:13The cake was delicious. Um, I need to
14:15see the paperwork."
14:16"Can I Can I see the license now?" I I
14:18just want to make sure everything was
14:19done properly and that there were
14:20witnesses. You've never said that.
14:22You've never said to your your parents,
14:23"Can I see your marriage license? I'd
14:26like to make sure everything's in order
14:28here." That's not how it works. Like, we
14:29don't do that. So, you could go have a
14:33wedding
14:34and tell people that you're married and
14:36never actually legally marry. You could
14:38just tell people that you're married.
14:40You don't check people's paperwork.
14:41Like, you could just wear a ring if you
14:43want to. And similarly, if you don't
14:45wear a ring, it doesn't mean you're not
14:47legally married. Like, you could be
14:48legally married and still take your ring
14:50off and you're still legally married. If
14:51it was just as easy as taking the ring
14:53off, I'd be out of a job. So,
14:55marriage is a legal status. That's one
14:58of the meanings of marriage. And a
15:00prenuptial agreement,
15:02the way I would describe it
15:04is two people
15:05deciding that they, having picked each
15:09other out of 8 billion people to choose
15:11from in the world,
15:13are in a better position to make the
15:15rules that will govern the economics of
15:18their relationship than the legislature
15:20would be, than politicians would be. And
15:23anyone who's ever been to the Department
15:25of Motor Vehicles, or who's ever been
15:27to, you know, any government agency,
15:30very rarely would you interact with a
15:32government agency and go,
15:34"We should definitely put these people
15:36in charge of our our family life. Like
15:38they're going to do a great job. They're
15:39they're really crushing it, you know?"
15:41Like that's not something people Yet,
15:44most people who are married have almost
15:46no idea what legal rights and
15:48obligations were conferred on them by
15:50getting married. They they just have no
15:52idea. It's the most legally significant
15:53thing they're going to do in their life
15:55other than die.
15:56And they have no idea what their rights
15:58and obligations are. And those rights
16:00and obligations can change.
16:02So, like
16:03politics and the legislature and the way
16:05that rules that govern the spousal
16:09support rights, child support rights,
16:11the division of property,
16:13those are subject to change by
16:15government change. So, for example, in
16:18the United States, um alimony, spousal
16:20support, maintenance, whatever we want
16:22to call it, which is a payment a person
16:23makes to their spouse when there's been
16:26an economic disparity in the marriage
16:28and now they're getting divorced,
16:30that used to be tax-deductible. It used
16:33to have no formula. It was at the
16:34discretion of a judge. Then in 2016,
16:37Trump came into office and he said,
16:38"Yeah, I'm not letting it be
16:39tax-deductible anymore." So, completely
16:41changed. Now, you're already married at
16:43this point. And now the rules about what
16:46governs your marriage have changed. So,
16:49there aren't a lot of contracts in the
16:51world that people could enter into that
16:53the terms could wildly change due to
16:55circumstances beyond your control and
16:56you're still in that same contract. So,
16:59prenuptial agreements
17:01are designed for two people who at that
17:04moment have an abundance of affection
17:06for each other. If they didn't, then
17:08there's no reason that they should be
17:09getting married, that they make up a
17:11rule set that's going to govern their
17:13relationship.
17:14And that typically, as we see it in
17:16movies and such and we hear about it in
17:17culture, is really deciding who gets
17:19what when they break up, right?
17:20Correct. Now, it's hard to say in
17:24advance who gets what when we break up
17:26sometime in the future.
17:29Because we don't know what we're going
17:30to have
17:31in 10 years, in 20 years. So, what do
17:33you do? You create structures.
17:36Like you create, you know, I refer to
17:39the simplest pre-nup as a yours, mine,
17:40and ours.
17:42Which is if it's in my name, whether
17:44it's an asset or a liability, it's mine.
17:47Free from any claim by you, free from
17:48any obligation to you.
17:50If it's in your name, it's yours. Free
17:52from any claim by me, any obligation to
17:53me.
17:54Ours, if it's in our joint names, then
17:56we're equally responsible for it if it's
17:58an obligation, or we're equally entitled
18:00to half the value of it if it's an
18:03asset. That to me, just creating those
18:06three buckets.
18:08Now, here's the problem. You create
18:09those three buckets, you both sign off
18:11on it, and you get married.
18:13You can't just set it and forget it now.
18:16You actually have to have conversations
18:18with this person that you're married to,
18:20which theoretically you should be able
18:22to do, right? Like if you've decided
18:24this is going to be my primary
18:25relationship, this is the person I'm
18:27going to tie my destiny to, you should
18:29be able
18:31to talk about, "Hey, I just got this big
18:33bonus at work.
18:34I'm going to put this much in my sole
18:36account, and I'm going to put this much
18:37in the joint account." And then you
18:38should be able to say if you're the
18:39other person, "Well, why why are you
18:40putting so much of it in your personal
18:41account? Like are things weird with us
18:43or something? Or is there You know, have
18:45some conversation." Again, about why are
18:48we marrying? It's a It's that economy
18:50concept, which is, "Look, what do I owe
18:53you if I marry you? I'd like to know
18:55that in advance because
18:58people say to me all the time, you know,
19:00"Well, I married this person, and when
19:02we got married,
19:04uh he had nothing. He had nothing, and
19:06he built his business while he was
19:08married to me.
19:09And I was very, you know, there for him
19:11while he was building it. So, therefore,
19:14I believe I'm entitled to half the value
19:16of that business. Now,
19:18that's a logical argument. I don't know
19:20that I agree with it, but it's logical.
19:22But, keep going with that logic, right?
19:26So, if that was true, and I built this
19:29business and my wife, who was married to
19:31me while I was building that business,
19:33she helped make that. Okay, well, her
19:35mother and father
19:37helped make who she is. So, I owe them
19:41something, right? Like I cuz if they
19:43hadn't done what they did, I wouldn't
19:44have her and if I didn't have her, I
19:46wouldn't have my business. So, how much
19:48do I owe them? And you know, now that I
19:50think about it, her grandmother
19:52definitely influenced who her mother
19:54was, which influenced who she was, which
19:56influenced what she did for me. So, just
19:58can you let me know in advance how far
20:01down the chain do I owe people and how
20:04much do I owe them? They can't all get
20:05half. So, do they get half of the half
20:07of the half? Or do I like and and and if
20:10this is the logic that we're going to
20:12follow,
20:13then I would like to know in advance
20:16what that is because there are no other
20:19transactions where if you went in to
20:21purchase a car and you said, "How much
20:23is this car?" and they said, "Money."
20:26They said, "Well, how much?" "You know,
20:27it's a good amount." Okay, I again, we
20:29just keep talking in abstractions. I'd
20:31like to know what does this add up to?
20:33How much is it? You know, and it even if
20:36you can't make it a dollar number,
20:38it's X percent of last year's earnings
20:40or like give me a formula, something to
20:42tie it to and at least have that
20:44conversation cuz then you can decide
20:47am I going to sign up for this thing or
20:49not? You must meet a lot of people who
20:51are in a relationship where one of the
20:54people doesn't want to have a prenup.
20:56Yes. I cuz I cuz I when I think about
20:58having a prenup, I'm with a
21:00woman at the moment. We've been together
21:01for 5 years.
21:02Um frankly, if I said to her, "I want to
21:04get a prenup." she would be all for it.
21:07She would That's the type of person she
21:08is. She'd be all for it. Doesn't care.
21:09She'd be all for it.
21:10Excellent. You've done well. But I can
21:12imagine in other relationships, I'd be
21:14nervous
21:15Yeah. to even say the words, because
21:17immediately you're thinking about how
21:18you're getting out before you get in.
21:19Yeah.
21:20Well, and you know, there's a lot to
21:22that. There's a lot to unpack there. So,
21:24the first thing I would say is
21:27all marriages end.
21:29They end in death or they end in
21:30divorce, but they all end, right? And
21:33so, if you said, "I'm going to get life
21:34insurance." It would be foolish for
21:37someone who's with you to say, "Wait,
21:38are you planning on dying soon?" Like it
21:41No, but in the event that I do, I'd like
21:43to make sure that things are taken care
21:44of in a certain way, and in the event
21:46that I do, there's going to be enough
21:47things to be upset and sad about for the
21:49people around me, so I'd like them to
21:51have one less thing. You know, and I I I
21:53also know that there's a possibility. I
21:55hope I won't, but there's a possibility
21:57that I'm going to die in an hour. So,
21:59I'd really hope it doesn't happen, but I
22:01can't say it's definitely not going to
22:02happen. So, divorce, you know, when we
22:04look at statistics like that, it's okay
22:07to say, "Hey, look, you know what? I
22:08hope this never happens, but if it did,
22:11what do we owe each other?
22:13You know, what would you need? Like it's
22:15not just a conversation about what do I
22:16want to keep? What am I entitled to
22:18keep? It's also what what would what
22:20would you need? Have you seen it break
22:21down a marriage because someone
22:23mentioned a pre-nup? Have you seen it
22:24Yeah, I've seen marriage I've seen
22:26marriages that were scheduled to happen
22:29not happen because the pre-nup
22:30discussion happened. But more often than
22:32not, I've seen the threat
22:35of not marrying someone because they
22:37want you to sign a pre-nup
22:41cause a person to fold in their request
22:43for a pre-nup, which to me is a really
22:45bad start for a marriage. So, I've had a
22:47lot of clients who come in, say, "Look,
22:50I I want to have a pre-nup. I have a lot
22:51of confidence in this marriage. I really
22:53love this person, but I would like to,
22:55you know, have a pre-nup in place." And
22:58I draft a pre-nup for them, and it has
22:59reasonable terms, and they give it to
23:01their fiance, and their fiance says,
23:03"Yeah, I'm not signing that. It's not
23:04happening."
23:05And instead of saying, "Okay, like then
23:09you're choosing for us to not marry, you
23:11know, that's okay, but like I love you
23:14and I'd love to marry you, but this is
23:16something that I need in order to feel
23:18comfortable with that."
23:19Um they they just go, "Okay, yeah, never
23:21mind."
23:22And they walk away from it. And and um
23:25because they're intimidated. And I think
23:26that's a that's an awful way to start a
23:28marriage. Like I think that's much worse
23:31than having a discussion about difficult
23:33things. Like
23:35I don't think you would think it's
23:37irresponsible.
23:38You've been with with a woman for 5
23:40years
23:41to say to her, let's say a year ago, or
23:44let's say 4 years ago,
23:47to say to her,
23:49"You know, we're going to get in a fight
23:50sometime.
23:51It's going to happen. Like we're going
23:53to disagree about something. It'll
23:54probably be my fault. I'll probably say
23:55something stupid. I do that sometimes.
23:57So, when we get in a fight someday,
24:00which again, I hope we don't. I'll do
24:02everything I can and not ever get in an
24:03argument with you.
24:04But at some point um something's going
24:06to happen. You're going to say something
24:07that's going to hurt my feelings. I'm
24:08going to take it the wrong way. I'll say
24:09something, you'll take it the wrong way.
24:10Or maybe I'm just an idiot. Sometimes
24:12I'll be in a bad mood and I'll say
24:13something, or I'll have too many drinks
24:15and I'll say something to you that'll
24:16upset you.
24:17When that happens,
24:19how do you how do you like to fight?
24:21Like what's best? Do you need a minute?
24:24Like do you need a minute to calm down?
24:26Do you need to like sleep on it? Or do
24:29you need to like we got to fix this
24:30right now. I can't go to bed angry. Like
24:32I won't be able to sleep. I won't be
24:34able to function. Like Like do we have
24:35to address it right then and there? Cuz
24:37you know the best time to talk about how
24:41we're going to argue when we're not
24:42arguing. You know the worst time to
24:44learn how to fight? In the middle of a
24:46fight. That's the worst time to learn
24:48how to fight. So, I like a pre-nup. I
24:51think a pre-nup can be a very romantic
24:53thing. Cuz it's basically saying, "Look,
24:57I love you, you love me, we want this
24:59thing to work, or else we wouldn't be
25:01signing up for it.
25:02But in the event it breaks down,
25:04you have a right to know what you're
25:06entitled to, I have a right to know what
25:07I'm entitled to. We both have an
25:09interest in making sure that we both
25:11have the things we need, so that neither
25:13of us feels like we're crawling out of
25:15this relationship instead of walking out
25:17of it. Like if I lose you,
25:19I'm going to have a lot more to be sad
25:21about than my stuff.
25:23Well, boy, let me tell you, not knowing
25:25where I'm going to live, or how I'm
25:26going to pay my bills, that's going to
25:28add a layer of pain and complexity to
25:30what is undoubtedly going to be a really
25:32hard situation. So, let's take that off
25:34of each other. Let's Let's know that
25:37because I don't ever want the person who
25:40lays their head on the pillow next to me
25:42to be there cuz they don't want to get
25:44divorced.
25:45I I would rather that it be that they
25:47like having me there next to them, that
25:49their life is better because I'm there,
25:52that they feel like I bring value to
25:54their life and they bring value to mine,
25:56not, "Well, I don't want to go through
25:58all that."
25:59In that case of that person you
26:01referenced there where they came to you
26:03for a pre-nup, their partner gave them
26:04an ultimatum and said, "Listen, no, I'm
26:06not signing that."
26:07How would you kind of draw the line
26:08between being a lawyer
26:11versus like a therapist or an adviser,
26:14sort of like a relationship adviser?
26:16Yeah, I mean, I have to tell you, it's a
26:17very seamless. I I don't um
26:21I don't think it's easy to distinguish
26:22between. We're attorneys at law. I might
26:26I have an undergraduate degree in
26:27psychology.
26:28And I think I use it as much as I use my
26:30law degree because this is so personal
26:34that it's very hard to not give human
26:37advice while I'm giving legal advice.
26:40And I'm dealing in the clay of of, you
26:43know, human emotion and human human
26:45connection and human frailty and human
26:47emotional complexity.
26:48I thought pre-nups were illegal.
26:50I thought they were like people went and
26:52got them, but they when it comes to
26:54enforcement enforcement, they don't hold
26:56up. You know, it could be true in the
26:57UK, but certainly not in the USA. It's
26:59They are They are enforceable. They are
27:01binding. Sometimes they're crazy how
27:03enforceable they are.
27:05Oh, really? Like it's Because the nature
27:06of a pre-nup is
27:08as long as it was not what's called
27:10unconscionable. Unconscionable is a
27:12contract that is so unfair that no
27:17fair-dealing person would offer it, and
27:19no sane person would accept it. So,
27:22that's what unconscionability is. So,
27:26you have to be A contract has to be
27:28unconscionable for it to be set aside,
27:31okay? Now,
27:33I have seen some pre-nups
27:36that were in their interpretation
27:39unconscionable, meaning
27:42you know, at the time they entered into
27:44it, he had nothing and she had nothing.
27:47And now they're getting divorced, and
27:49under the terms of this, he's going to
27:51walk out with a hundred million dollars,
27:53and she's going to walk out with almost
27:55nothing.
27:56But as long as it was not unconscionable
27:59at the time it was made,
28:02if it's unconscionable in its
28:03performance, it's still binding. So,
28:07I have seen the outcome of pre-nups
28:10sometimes be shockingly unfair,
28:14but you have a right to contract. As
28:16long as it wasn't fraud, as long as it
28:18wasn't duress or undue influence, or if
28:20someone was under the, you know,
28:22influence of drugs or alcohol when they
28:23signed off on it, it's a binding
28:25contract because we believe in in in
28:27human autonomy and agency and the right
28:30to make decisions about your life and
28:32your future. So,
28:33Is that exa- Is exa- Is that the most
28:35real one? Is that the the most shocking
28:36one you've seen? No, the most shocking
28:38pre-nup I've ever seen,
28:41which was enforceable,
28:43um had a provision that said that for
28:46every 10 lb the wife gained in the
28:49marriage, she would lose $10,000 a month
28:52in alimony. 10 lb of weight. Yes. Yes.
28:56So, so it it it was a very wealthy man
28:58who was wearing marrying a very
29:00attractive woman. But, he was very
29:02concerned that she was going to become
29:04less attractive and he was going to
29:06become more wealthy. So, his solution to
29:09this
29:10was in the prenuptial agreement, he
29:13wanted a clause that said she would get
29:15if they divorced, she was going to get
29:16like $70,000
29:18a month
29:20for alimony.
29:22But, for every 10 lb she gained from the
29:26date of marriage, she would forfeit
29:2810,000 a month worth of alimony. And it
29:31was designed to sort of create an
29:32incentive that she would remain thin.
29:37And that was enforceable.
29:38Meaning, they tried to challenge and set
29:41aside that provision.
29:43And the court said,
29:45"This is a disgusting provision. I don't
29:47know why you married this person,
29:50but it's enforceable. It's a contract.
29:52The two of you signed it and you had a
29:53right to sign it and you agreed to these
29:55rules and they may be ridiculous rules,
29:57but you agreed to them and you have a
29:58right to do that." Do you think that was
30:00love?
30:01Again, I I think it's a kind of love. I
30:04think it's a form of love. I Is it a
30:06form of love I'd be interested in? No. I
30:08think it's very shallow in some ways.
30:10There's something very honest about it.
30:12I mean, you can't argue with the fact
30:14that there's something very
30:16upfront about it. He was making very
30:19clear and putting in writing, "Here's
30:21the value you bring to this
30:22relationship. You know, I consider your
30:25physical appearance
30:27vitally important to this relationship."
30:30And by the way, don't skip the other
30:31side of that equation. Yeah. She was
30:34going to get $70,000
30:36a month. That's very impressive number.
30:39So, you know, I I think she she also
30:42understood there was a value to be
30:44attached to him as well. You know, and
30:46and it's so it's
30:49Is it something I would be interested in
30:52on either side of that equation? No.
30:54But, do I have a right to say to someone
30:57that's not love? I I don't think I have
30:59a right to say that to someone. I think
31:00that if this is an economy the two of
31:02you have agreed on that, you know, as a
31:04lawyer see my my job as a lawyer is not
31:07to look like I don't look at it that
31:09way. I look at the engineering of it.
31:12So, like if I'm representing her
31:15in that transaction,
31:17all I could think is, okay, so we're
31:19going to want her baseline weight to be
31:21as high as possible.
31:23So, I'm going to want her to have
31:24pennies in her pockets after at the day
31:26we sign the pre-nup cuz you'd have to
31:28establish a baseline, right? Cuz if you
31:29say gaining 10 lb, you'd have to
31:31establish a baseline weight on the date
31:33of the marriage. So, she was weighed on
31:34the date of the marriage. Well, in or
31:36about the date of the marriage. The
31:37parties acknowledge that on on or about
31:39the date of marriage she weighed
31:40approximately X pounds. So, if I'm her,
31:42I want that to be as high as possible.
31:44So, I'm going to be putting pennies in
31:46my pockets and eating as many
31:47cheeseburgers as I can before the
31:48weigh-in. Now, we're getting divorced,
31:51I'm going to be like a wrestler. I'm
31:53going to be in the sauna.
31:54I'm going to be sweating as much as I
31:57can. I'm going to take diuretics. I'm
31:58going to eat nothing but like grilled
32:00vegetables for a week or two, you know?
32:02And I'm going to I'm going to take off
32:03every ounce of clothing I can cuz I want
32:06to minimize my weight. This is why this
32:08is why lawyers don't get invited to
32:09parties cuz that's how we analyze
32:11problems. Like I didn't hear that and
32:13go, what is the nature of their
32:14coupling? I looked at it and I went, oh,
32:16I could play with that. I could work
32:18I get it I get it whoever I'm
32:19representing in that transaction I could
32:21figure out a way to, you know, kind of
32:22make that work.
32:24You become a coach.
32:26Kind of is. I mean, it it turns into an
32:28engineering question as opposed to a
32:30human question.
32:33I heard about this thing when I was
32:34reading your book of these um
32:36I've watching some of your stuff online
32:37that I didn't know existed, which was
32:38fidelity contracts. Fidelity clauses,
32:40yeah.
32:41Fidelity clauses.
32:42Yeah, yeah. So, it's something people
32:43include in prenuptial agreements, and
32:45also sometimes in what's called a
32:46postnuptial agreement. So, a postnuptial
32:48agreement, you know, nuptial meaning
32:50marriage, pre meaning before marriage,
32:51post meaning after marriage. So, if you
32:54didn't get a prenup, but your marriage,
32:57for whatever reason,
32:59becomes fragile, maybe someone learns of
33:01an affair, or maybe you're starting to
33:03have difficulties with each other, but
33:05you don't want a divorce,
33:07but you'd like there to be some clarity
33:09as to if we divorce, what will the rules
33:13be? You can do something called a
33:14postnuptial agreement.
33:15Okay. And and that would, in the event
33:18you divorce, make the divorce a little
33:19less acrimonious because you've resolved
33:21certain issues. It's basically like the
33:23prenup you should have had.
33:24Okay. So, I have seen people in both
33:28prenups and in postnups put in what's
33:29called fidelity clauses, which
33:31essentially are a clause that say that
33:34if you cheat on your spouse,
33:37here's what the penalty will be. And it
33:38could be a financial penalty.
33:41It could have, you know, a
33:42support-related context. It could have
33:44be a percentage of certain ownership
33:46rights, you know, things that you have.
33:48Are they a good idea from what you've
33:50seen? Are they useful in
33:51I think they're a terrible idea. Yeah,
33:53from a legal standpoint, they're a
33:54terrible idea.
33:55For for a couple of reasons. One,
33:57defining cheating is very tricky. Uh you
34:00know, if if if if you're
34:03if we're going to define cheating as a
34:04specific form of sexual contact,
34:08I guess that's a pretty clear
34:09definition. But but even infidelity,
34:12it's not all created equal. I mean, I
34:13think we could all agree that
34:16if you if your partner
34:20when they were drunk on vacation or at a
34:23party,
34:24you know, had some kind of fleeting
34:27sexual contact with another person, and
34:29then woke up the the day and went, "Oh
34:30my god, what did I do? I regret this so
34:33much." But, they're never going to see
34:34this person again. It was just a stupid
34:37dalliance. It happens, you know. Again,
34:38not excusing that behavior, but
34:41that's different than if you were having
34:42an ongoing affair with another person.
34:46Or I think there are probably some
34:47people if they were being honest,
34:50if they said, "Would you rather that
34:52your spouse on a drunken night out
34:54kissed somebody
34:56or was texting
34:58another person five times a day for 6
35:01weeks and sharing the most intimate
35:02thoughts?"
35:04You know, and what we call an emotional
35:05affair. Well, I mean, I think we can
35:07agree that like something about an
35:09emotional affair like someone becoming
35:11your confident. They're They're I once
35:14heard someone say and I In my
35:15professional life, I found it to be true
35:18that when men find out that a woman who
35:21they're with has had an affair,
35:24their first question is, "Did you sleep
35:25with them?"
35:26When women find out a man had an affair,
35:28their first question is, "Are you in
35:30love with her?"
35:32And I think that tells you a lot about
35:34men and women's relationships because
35:36there's a sense of, "Okay, what what was
35:38this?
35:39Was this sex
35:41or was this like I'm I don't love you
35:44anymore. I don't want you in my life
35:46anymore?" Because those are two really
35:47different things. And And so, a fidelity
35:50clause is a one-size-fits-all
35:52concept that just says, "Okay, we're
35:54going to define cheating
35:57and then there's going to be a penalty
35:58for you doing it."
36:00Now, again,
36:02in what I've observed in life, cheating
36:04is its own penalty.
36:05Cheating turns your life at best
36:07cheating turns your life into like an
36:10unbelievably complicated like jumping
36:13from one foot to another, lying to
36:15everyone involved. Like rarely
36:18does anybody get out of infidelity
36:21without hurting themselves and a bunch
36:23of other people.
36:24Like whether it's not only their
36:25partner, but even the person who they
36:27cheated with, or or that person's
36:29partner. Like there's so there's so much
36:31pain to go around when when cheating
36:33happens.
36:35And so, to say, "And there's going to be
36:37an economic penalty." You know, it's a
36:40bit like,
36:41you know, using drugs is illegal in a
36:44lot of places, but I can't imagine that
36:47there's a heroin addict who goes, "You
36:48know, I'm going to shoot up. Oh, wait,
36:50it's illegal. I don't want to get in
36:51trouble." And And I'm going to Like
36:53that's not how it works. Like you're
36:55adding insult to injury, you know? This
36:56person They're already in a very
36:59difficult position. I don't think making
37:01it illegal is going to do much except
37:03create an underground economy. Same kind
37:05of thing. I I think that infidelity
37:08there should be sufficient incentives in
37:11a relationship to not cheat.
37:14And there there are already, by
37:17definition, so many consequences for
37:19cheating, that adding to that an
37:21economic penalty, I don't know that a
37:23person's going to be about cheating and
37:25then go,
37:26"This could cost me like 20 more grand.
37:28Uh no, I'm not going to do it." Are you
37:30seeing more and more people getting
37:31those prenups?
37:32Yeah, prenups are
37:34I have to tell you, there's a
37:35generational shift happening. I I see a
37:37lot of people in their I've been doing
37:40this job for 25 years.
37:42And I will tell you,
37:44the people currently in their 20s and
37:46early 30s, like the prime demographic
37:49for marriage, mid mid 20s to mid 30s,
37:53are getting prenups at a rate that I
37:55would say is probably 5x what it was 10
37:59years ago, 15 years ago, certainly 25
38:02years ago from when I started. I I think
38:04there's a more
38:05pragmatic view of relationships. I think
38:08that there's there's a lot more open
38:12discussion. I mean, although there is a
38:14tremendous increase in the amount of
38:16like performative,
38:17"Look how happy we are," you know,
38:19meanwhile, it's like, you know, white
38:21teeth and rotting gums. You know, like
38:23we're we're we're doing the performative
38:25social media, look at how great, hashtag
38:26blessed, and meanwhile our life is, you
38:28know, is our relationship is is rotting
38:30from the inside. Um and we see a lot of
38:33that. Like I I I'll tell you something,
38:34I see people in my office
38:37who publicly are having the greatest
38:39relationships ever. Like if you believe
38:41their social media,
38:43they are so madly in love, and it shocks
38:45me because I think about all the people
38:48that are dissatisfied in their perfectly
38:50acceptable relationship cuz it's not as
38:52amazing as that relationship. And
38:55meanwhile, that relationship is nowhere
38:57near that amazing as they'd have you
38:59believe it. And and we've got the
39:01audacity now as a culture that people
39:03without any apology,
39:05you know, do the we're perfectly happy,
39:07these hateful rumors that we're unhappy
39:09are terrible, and then we've decided to
39:11amicably part ways. We ask you to
39:13respect our privacy during this
39:14difficult time. And you're like, okay,
39:15but wait a minute. Like a month ago when
39:18there was rumors that the two of you
39:19were splitting up, you yelled at all of
39:20us for saying it's so mean that we're
39:22speculating, and now you're like, yes,
39:23we've split up. So we were right. So we
39:25you were making us feel awful about
39:27ourselves and how madly in love you were
39:29with each other, but now, you know, we
39:32were basing our lives, like we're we're
39:33basing our our our level of satisfaction
39:36on watching your greatest hits while we
39:38live our gag reel. Do you think there's
39:40something in the idea that those that
39:42endeavor to convince the world that
39:44they're happy in their relationships
39:46are often not as happy?
39:48100%. I'll actually extrapolate that
39:50further. My my father's a southerner, so
39:53he has a lot of southern folksy things
39:55he says, and one of them was empty
39:56barrels make the most noise.
39:58And he used to say that to me when I was
40:00a kid all the time. Whenever somebody
40:01had something fancy that they owned, cuz
40:03I grew up without a lot of money, and
40:04then someone would drive a beautiful
40:06car, and I'd say, "Wow, that car is so
40:07cool." He'd say, "You know, empty
40:08barrels make the most noise." That that
40:10the people that that have true joy in
40:13their relationship really don't feel
40:15like they have to advertise it. People
40:17who have a like I I represent some of
40:19the wealthiest people in the world. Like
40:22New York is the epicenter of commerce
40:25and finance for the United States and to
40:27some degree for the world.
40:29You know, in the UAE you're more likely
40:31to find a gold plated Ferrari, but in
40:34New York like finance, Wall Street, like
40:36it is it is the home of it. So I
40:38represent I have a client who's worth $8
40:40billion. You would walk past him on the
40:43street, you would never know he has very
40:45much money at all. He drives a Jeep
40:46Grand Cherokee,
40:48which is like a very mid-range car. He
40:50wears like, you know, totally
40:52nondescript clothing. Like he just looks
40:55like a typical middle-aged dude and you
40:57would not look at him and go like he
40:58gets his hair cut at like Supercuts for
41:0025 bucks. Like he's not posh in the
41:03things that he owns and does. And he's
41:06he could buy,
41:07you know, he his income annually is like
41:10the gross domestic product of a few
41:11company of a few countries.
41:13And, you know, he's not But then again I
41:16have clients who appear
41:19to be incredibly wealthy. And as a
41:21divorce lawyer I get to see
41:23the absolutely unfiltered version of
41:25people's finances and I can tell you
41:27they are deeply in debt many of them.
41:30You know, this is particularly true of
41:31celebrities.
41:32You know, celebrities have to live these
41:34big performative lives cuz if they're
41:37they don't, you know, drive a posh car
41:39and they don't wear the the latest
41:41designer labels, there's this sense of
41:43oh are they not doing well? And
41:45especially with sort of influencer
41:46culture, you know, there's just so much
41:48like, you know, everything everyone's
41:50wearing and doing has to be the best of
41:52the best and the most expensive.
41:54I I find very often these are the more
41:57people have to flaunt their wealth,
42:00the less wealth they probably have.
42:02Like, you know, money talks like wealth
42:04whispers and it's very comfortable just
42:06whispering. It doesn't feel like it has
42:08to prove to the world. In fact, it it
42:09would rather that everyone not know who
42:12it was. There was a time
42:14where fame was an unfortunate side
42:18effect of talent.
42:20So, you were really good at something.
42:22So, then everybody heard about who you
42:23were, and all of a sudden everybody knew
42:25who you were. And that was unfortunate
42:27cuz you couldn't go out to eat anymore.
42:29You couldn't just live your life
42:30anymore. Now, of course, there were
42:32times where it probably felt really
42:33nice. You know, it feels good. Listen, I
42:34I walk down the street in New York City
42:36sometimes. People today, guys said to
42:37me, "Hey, man, love your stuff." Thanks.
42:40That's great. Feels nice. Definitely
42:41nice. There's times where it doesn't.
42:43There's times where I'm on my phone. I'm
42:45I'm in the middle of talking to a
42:46client, and somebody's standing there
42:47next to me waiting to talk to me, and I
42:48know they're waiting to say something so
42:50lovely.
42:51But there's a part of me that's like,
42:52okay, man, I I got to like do what I'm
42:53doing right now. I'm I'm I'm doing the
42:55thing, you know.
42:57And now being famous is the goal for so
43:00many people. So, I I think there is
43:03definitely, when people say, "Look at
43:06how happy we are. Look at how happy we
43:07are. Look at
43:09You know, it's like, please, tell me how
43:11happy we are because if you don't tell
43:13me how happy we are, I'm going to have
43:14to look at this relationship, and I'm
43:16going to see how unhappy we are. You
43:19know, when someone wants to be famous,
43:21it's like, tell me I have value. Please
43:23tell me I have value. Oh, God, please
43:24tell me I have value.
43:26Because,
43:27you know, the the reason I was never
43:29really interested in being famous
43:32is that
43:33the praise of strangers never really
43:35felt that important to me. Like if the
43:38people in my life think I have something
43:40interesting to say, and care about me,
43:42and like me, that's really meaningful to
43:44me. And I'm touched for anyone who's
43:47ever appreciated my work or enjoyed it.
43:50But I never said like, oh, I really want
43:52to get out there, and you know, have
43:53people know who I am, and tell me I'm
43:55smart because cuz I I know I'm smart.
43:58Like it's okay. Like you don't My
43:59beliefs don't require you to believe
44:01them.
44:01And and so, I I think this performative
44:05culture when it comes to relationships
44:07is an unfortunate thing because again,
44:11we're comparing ourselves we can't help
44:14as a species but compare ourselves to
44:17the things we see around us.
44:18But you must see so much of that in your
44:20office where someone comes in and they
44:21say my marriage isn't working and they
44:23use the
44:24they use a comparative measure. They say
44:26well, you know, Jenny and Dave they're
44:28like this and we're not so But how much
44:31sex are they having? How much like how
44:33much sex is enough sex? Like honestly.
44:36Like we don't talk about these things.
44:38We don't we don't there's so much of our
44:40day-to-day life
44:42that we're constantly feeling like we're
44:44not doing well
44:46based on nothing.
44:48Like I don't think I'm doing that well.
44:50Compared to what? I'm not good-looking
44:52enough. Compared to what? A photoshopped
44:55image of a person on steroids? Yeah,
44:57you're right. You don't look like a
44:59photoshopped person on steroids. You're
45:01not supposed to. Like women are going
45:04into doctor's offices saying make me
45:06look like this and showing the doctor
45:08something that's been photoshopped. That
45:11person doesn't look like that. Like how
45:14would you know you're not having enough
45:15sex? How much sex are people having? Is
45:18that frequent one sex? Yeah, sex is
45:20huge. Sex is huge. It's well, I mean
45:22first of all, it better be
45:24because what's the difference between a
45:25spouse and a roommate otherwise? Like it
45:27was just like oh, we're going to be
45:28partners in a home together. Like you
45:30don't have to marry each other to do
45:32that. You can just live together and be
45:34I mean sex is the glue. Sex is the thing
45:36that brings you together. Sex is what
45:39makes a romantic relationship a romantic
45:41relationship. And again, it can be any
45:44number of varieties of sex. It can be
45:46preferences of sex. It can be anything.
45:48But we don't talk about we talk about
45:51all kinds of things in in polite society
45:53now if you can call it that. I mean we
45:55talk more than we ever did about, you
45:57know, transgender issues and LGBTQ+
45:59issues. And I think that's progress. I
46:01think it's great that people can talk
46:03about anything. We can talk about kink.
46:05We can talk about like I'm a big fan of
46:07people being able to speak openly about
46:09the things that make them happy and make
46:10them feel good and, you know, not having
46:13to feel ashamed about certain things.
46:15But, baseline?
46:17Like,
46:18how how Well, we're not having enough
46:20sex. Okay, compared to what? The sex we
46:22used to have as a couple? That makes
46:24sense. That makes sense to me. Like, if
46:26we set a baseline and say, we used to
46:28have sex every day.
46:31When we first started dating, we had sex
46:32four times a day. Okay, but then the you
46:34know, luster wears off.
46:36You know, now we we we used to have sex
46:38once a day. Now, once a week.
46:41Is that okay? Is that natural? Is that
46:44part of the progression of a
46:45relationship? Or is that a sign that one
46:47or both of us are feeling dissatisfied
46:49with each other? Can we talk about that
46:51and not have it be a fight?
46:53Can we talk about that and not hear it
46:55as a as a something that we have to
46:56react defensively to? And that's that's
46:58the stuff I tried to talk about in my
47:00book is that people come in and they go,
47:03well, you know, we're unhappy with each
47:04other. I was cheating on her. I was
47:05cheating on her because she wasn't
47:06sleeping with me. Well, I wasn't
47:08sleeping with him because he's never
47:09nice to me. Well, I'm not nice to her
47:10because every time I talk to her, all
47:11she does is put me down.
47:13Okay, and you sit here going, okay, so
47:15you guys have just been in this death
47:16spiral.
47:18You know, just going down and down and
47:20down. You started at I love you more
47:23than eight billion other people in the
47:25world. But, somehow you just started to
47:28do this death spiral. And now you're
47:30right, you won. You guys you won. You're
47:32both right. You don't have to sleep with
47:35him. You don't have to be nice to her.
47:37You don't have to say a kind word. You
47:39don't have to do any of that. You don't
47:40have to be married. Great news. You
47:42don't have to be married. But, you
47:44decided to be married. You signed up to
47:47be married. So, at some point this made
47:49sense to you. You liked each other that
47:52much. And you were both pointing in the
47:54same direction and at some point you
47:56lost the plot. So, my feeling is
48:00wouldn't it be better
48:02before you completely lose the plot
48:05to just do the preventative maintenance?
48:07To just
48:08maintenance?
48:10Talk about what Are we still as
48:12connected as we were? Are we still as
48:14excited as we were? Are we still
48:17you know, are we still attracted to each
48:19other? Are we still enjoying each other
48:21physically, mentally, like emotionally?
48:24want to do that though cuz it's
48:25uncomfortable, right? Okay. Lots of
48:27things are uncomfortable that are so
48:28good for you. You know, exercise is
48:31uncomfortable until you get in a rhythm
48:32of it and that feels really good, you
48:34know? So, how how would you know if the
48:37first time you went to the gym and you
48:38worked out and you went home and you
48:39were like, "Oh my god, I'm so sore. I'm
48:41never working out again." Then you will
48:42never get into an exercise routine. You
48:46have to get through that part where
48:47everything's really sore. And you're
48:49still sometimes going to be sore. You
48:50overdid it, you know? But you start to
48:53realize, "Yeah, but it's also bringing
48:54tremendous value to my life, you know?"
48:57And so, why not? Like why not trade what
49:00you want now, which is comfort in the
49:02moment, for what you want most, which is
49:06real connection, real intimacy, like
49:08real joy? And and and that can be And
49:12again, we want it.
49:1486% of people who get divorced wouldn't
49:15get remarried within 5 years if we
49:17didn't want it. If we didn't believe it
49:19was possible. And if you've ever met
49:21someone
49:22who is happily married over a long
49:25period of time,
49:27you won the lottery.
49:29Like they're so Their lives are just so
49:31much better because they just go, "I
49:33have this partner." Cuz this is
49:35terrifying.
49:37Like life is terrifying and it's brutal.
49:40And it and it and it ends. It invariably
49:42ends. We're all going to die. Everyone
49:45we love's going to die. Like we're
49:47playing a game you can't win to the
49:50utmost. And to me,
49:52to have a partner in that, someone who
49:54you can hold their hand and go, you
49:56know, when you're scared, I'll be here
49:58for you, and when I'm scared, you'll be
50:00here for me, and you'll help me see my
50:02blind spots, and I'll help you see
50:03yours, and let's just do this thing,
50:05we'll never be alone. Like, what a
50:08gorgeous thought that is. What a
50:10beautiful thought that is. What a worthy
50:12pursuit that is. But, yeah, you got to
50:15be uncomfortable once in a while. You
50:17got to tell it each other something
50:18other than what the other person wants
50:20to hear once in a while. But, to me,
50:23like, if the payoff is real connection,
50:27keeping real intimacy, keeping your
50:30partner happy and satisfied with you, so
50:33that the thought of splitting up or
50:34running off with somebody else is just a
50:36fleeting thought that maybe occasionally
50:38jumps into their head, like, that seems
50:40such a worthwhile investment to me.
50:44Preventative maintenance.
50:47I wanted to drill down a little bit into
50:48what that actually looks like, cuz
50:49there'll be a lot of people right now,
50:50including myself, who heard you use this
50:52term preventative maintenance.
50:54And immediately I thought, "Jesus
50:56Christ, I probably should do that a
50:57little bit more." Sure. What do you mean
50:59by preventative maintenance? It can be
51:00lots of things. I think it can be I try
51:02to give a lot of examples, but I
51:04I think some of the simplest examples
51:06are very small gestures of courtesy. I
51:10mean,
51:11think about when you first started
51:12dating.
51:14All the little things that made the back
51:16of your neck tingle about this person.
51:18Like, they would say the littlest thing
51:20about you, and it made you so happy cuz
51:23they were noticing you.
51:24You know, and they they they saw
51:26beautiful things in you, and that made
51:28you see and feel those things in
51:30yourself.
51:31You know, that that's a beau- amazing
51:33thing we can do for each other, you
51:35know? And and so,
51:37I mean, at its core level, like, the the
51:40the the example I've given to a lot of
51:42my male friends,
51:44and and several of them have done it,
51:45and I've got a lot of really good
51:46feedback on it, is leave leave a note.
51:49Just leave a note in the morning when
51:50you leave for work or wherever it is
51:52you're going, just leave a note. You
51:53know, it was so great hanging out with
51:55you last night. I'm with the prettiest
51:56girl in the whole world.
51:58Can't wait to see you again. That's it.
52:00What does that take? 10 seconds?
52:0210 seconds.
52:03And and every guy I meet
52:06who I say that to,
52:07they go, "Yeah, the first time I did it,
52:09she was like, what is going on? Why did
52:11you leave me that note? What are you
52:12What What What is What's going on?" But
52:14then after a little while, like if this
52:16is just something you do that you go,
52:18"Yeah, I just, you know, I want to make
52:19a practice of like how I want to tell
52:21you this stuff I forget to tell you
52:23sometimes."
52:24You know, like what does that take? Like
52:26what does it take for your partner to
52:28say to you, "You're so smart. Like I
52:30just love being around you. Like you're
52:32so handsome. I'm so lucky." Like what
52:35does that take? That's nothing. Doesn't
52:36cost anything. Takes nothing to do that.
52:39Why don't we do it? I don't know. I
52:41don't know. I I think we just whoever
52:44discovered water it wasn't a fish, like
52:46I think you're just in it and you just
52:48stop seeing it. And that person's just
52:50there. And again, I don't know And I
52:52also think culture is antagonistic to
52:54it. Cuz the example I give to people cuz
52:56people love their dogs, and I love my
52:57dogs.
53:00But like dogs are a great
53:02way to look at this rationality. Because
53:05I've got a 13-year-old dog.
53:08I got him when he was a puppy. Now he's
53:0913. And like me, he's slowed down a lot.
53:11His back hurts. He's not quite the puppy
53:14he used to be.
53:16I have never once looked at that dog and
53:19gone,
53:20"I got to get a puppy.
53:21This old This old dog. He doesn't look
53:24as cute as he used to." And like, "Oh my
53:25god, have you seen how cute puppies
53:27are?" Like I would never. That's my dog,
53:29man. I fall more in love with that dog
53:31every single day. You know?
53:33And yeah, sure, puppies are cute and
53:34they're great, and I'll pet them, but
53:35that's my dog, man. I wouldn't trade all
53:37the puppies in the world for that dog.
53:41Your partner? Your romantic partner?
53:43Like what What it become acceptable
53:47as it as it is in in culture to just
53:51just piss all over your partner. Like
53:54every guy it's like the
53:56I'm married to the most loathsome harpy
53:58ever to castrate a man. Like this one,
54:01the old ball and chain. And women, it's
54:03like the guy is like, "Oh, this idiot.
54:05Like this just lovable idiot, you know,
54:07he doesn't know. He doesn't know
54:08anything. He's so stupid. Men are so
54:10stupid." Like when did that What do you
54:13think's going to come from that? Other
54:15than this disdain that we can then have
54:17for each other and this sort of
54:19disrespect as opposed to being like so
54:22into each other, which is what you were
54:24when you were strangers. You know, when
54:26you didn't know each other, you know,
54:28every all the same women sitting around
54:31in a group of women talking about how
54:32much their husbands suck.
54:35When their female friend goes, "Oh my
54:37god, I'm seeing this guy I just started
54:38seeing. What did he Oh my god, he sounds
54:40so great." All All this is All this is
54:44is your guy 5 years ago.
54:47But somehow now, you're you're really
54:50going to buy the delusion
54:52that if she it all works out with him
54:54and they get married and they do their
54:55little fairy tale thing and the cake and
54:57the dress and the whole thing that in 5
54:59years she's still going to be like,
55:00"He's so great." No, it's going to be
55:03"Oh, he's a uh" again. Just like the
55:05rest of you. So, we need to start
55:08as a culture
55:10you know, perhaps changing the way cuz I
55:13think there is something about that
55:15where we you know, we're trying to like
55:17not make people self-conscious. So, we
55:18just like take the piss out of our
55:19partner all the time in front of, you
55:21know, people or around other people. And
55:23I I don't find that charming. Do you
55:25think that when we get to the lovable
55:26idiot Oh my god, happy wife, happy life,
55:28all that stuff, which is part of culture
55:30Happy wife, who Whoever said that should
55:32just be beaten to death. Happy wife,
55:34happy life. Like if I hear one more
55:36person give that advice to somebody, I
55:38have to tell you, that is just the most
55:39ridiculous What does that even mean?
55:42Happy wife, happy life. If she's happy,
55:44then I'm happy.
55:45Because Is that true? I think it I
55:48I think it's used by men who believe
55:53that their wife is always unhappy.
55:56So, if she's not shouting at me, and I
55:58can just sit here and watch the
55:59football, Yeah. then all all is well.
56:02that something to aspire to?
56:05You know, man, I can't wait what? For
56:08someday for my kids to just sit there
56:11while the up person in the other room is
56:13just mildly dissatisfied with them, and
56:16they can just sit and watch, you know,
56:18the football. Get really? That's That's
56:20what we're aspiring to? That's what you
56:21hope for? Like, I got to tell I just
56:23don't I think our goals are really
56:25misaligned. You know, my greatest
56:28accomplishment in life is my children.
56:30Really? That's your greatest
56:31accomplishment in life is your children.
56:33What Let me ask you this. What will your
56:35children's greatest accomplishment in
56:37life be? Having children? Cuz guess
56:39what? This is the ideology of a cancer
56:41cell.
56:43Growth for the sake of growth for the
56:44sake of growth for the sake of growth.
56:46Reproduction for the sake of
56:47reproduction. I don't think that's the
56:49highest, noblest goal. I think there
56:51should be something in there about
56:54quality of life, about making the world
56:57where the experience of others better.
56:59Like, again, it's not for me to define,
57:01but but I certainly I don't
57:04Intelligence is hard to define, but I
57:06can spot stupid a mile away.
57:09And I have to tell you, a good
57:10relationship, you know, it's kind of
57:12hard to quantify, but man, I know what
57:14sucks. I know a bad relationship when I
57:17see one, and we all know them. So,
57:20what's more uncomfortable?
57:22That relationship where, you know, at
57:25least she's not yelling at me, and she's
57:26only mildly dissatisfied, and I can just
57:28be left alone for an hour and watch the
57:30football.
57:31Or having having conversation, again,
57:34while you still like each other,
57:37but there's a little slippage. There's a
57:38little something going in the other
57:40direction, and I don't want it to go too
57:41far. I mean, put it into the physical
57:43context. It is a whole lot easier to
57:46maintain a healthy weight
57:48than to gain 100 lb and then try to
57:50figure out how to lose it. That's much,
57:52much harder, and it's much worse for
57:54you. And the chances of you actually
57:56accomplishing them are way lower.
57:58Whereas, maintaining a healthy weight,
58:01that's not an unrealistic thing to be
58:03able to do. Is there I had sat here with
58:05a one psychologist, um, who I'm sure
58:08you'll know, a very famous individual.
58:09Um, called Jordan Peterson. And he said
58:12to me, he said
58:14he was shouting when he said it. He
58:15said, "Listen, he was you're going to
58:17have to sit down for 90 minutes a week,
58:19and you're going to have to listen to
58:20her. And she's going to tell you
58:22everything that's wrong." And he goes,
58:23"If you don't listen to her for 90
58:24minutes a week, you'll be listening to
58:26her in divorce court." And he was he was
58:28almost shouting when he says it. The
58:29analogy he's making
58:31What he's saying is what you're saying.
58:33Yeah. Is you're going to have
58:34Yeah.
58:34I You know,
58:36Jordan I I find Jordan Peterson very
58:38entertaining. I've been a fan of his
58:39work a long time. Um, and I I loved
58:42actually your conversation with him. Um,
58:45what I will say is I think that he's
58:47sort of hyperbolic in his presentation
58:48sometimes, which I I enjoy. But I think
58:51we totally agree on this. I think that
58:53that what he's saying more than anything
58:55is that you can invest now
58:57in candor
58:59and in listening to this person in a
59:01non-defensive manner. And And so,
59:04there's a chapter in my book called Hits
59:06and Now,
59:08where I talk about exactly that, where I
59:10say, "You need to be able to have these
59:12conversations, but have them in a way
59:15that that you're hearing it, and you're
59:18saying it. You're agreeing. It's a
59:19contract
59:21that we know we love each other. So,
59:23we're going to try to say it with love.
59:24We're going to try to hear it with love.
59:26Because I'm only saying it cuz I this is
59:28important to me, this relationship, and
59:30I want it to be good for you and for me.
59:33So, I'm going to go out on a limb here.
59:35I'm going to take this risk cuz you're
59:36worth it. You are worth it for me to
59:38take this risk. It's scary. I'm not
59:41excited about having to say it. But you
59:43know what? Like I care enough. And when
59:44you say things to me, I'm going to hear
59:46it. I'm going to hear it as you saying,
59:48I care so much about this relationship,
59:50I'm going to say this harder thing to
59:51say. And it might be little.
59:53It might be, you know, you said the
59:54other night you were talking about my
59:55sister and you made that little joke
59:57about her and it felt like you were like
59:58kind of making fun of my sister and I
1:00:00thought you liked my sister and it's
1:00:02really important to me that you like my
1:00:03sister cuz I really like my sister. So,
1:00:05maybe I misunderstood you and if I did,
1:00:07okay, great. Let me know that. Hit send
1:00:09now. Just hit send now. The reason I
1:00:11said hit send now is when you
1:00:15You ever like write an email where you
1:00:17said something important and you like
1:00:19write it, rewrite it, and you craft it
1:00:21and you're like about to hit send and
1:00:23you're like, oh boy.
1:00:25And then you hit it and you're like,
1:00:26well, it's there now.
1:00:28Can't unsend it now. Like it's done. I
1:00:30hit send now. That's where I got the
1:00:32term hit send now. Because But I But I
1:00:34said like make it a technique. Like say
1:00:36to your partner,
1:00:38I want to do this. I want you to do it
1:00:41and I want to do it. But I want to make
1:00:43it clear. Like make the subject heading
1:00:45of the email hitting send now. Okay, so
1:00:48they know. So, they know
1:00:50this is not an attack.
1:00:52This is something I want to get off my
1:00:53chest. You don't have to respond right
1:00:56away.
1:00:57You don't have to respond in writing if
1:00:58you don't want to. But I just want to
1:01:00put this out there cuz I want you to
1:01:02digest it. And the key to this is I read
1:01:05in your book is to do it quickly Yep.
1:01:07and do it honestly. Yep. Yep. And And
1:01:09And to again, to make a point of calling
1:01:13this out as a technique when you're in a
1:01:15good place. So, when you're already in a
1:01:17good place, there's an abundance of
1:01:18goodwill between us. We're in a a spot.
1:01:21That's a good time to say, "Hey, look,
1:01:22this is good, man, and this is
1:01:23important. So, let's keep it good." And
1:01:26the way we're going to do that is if I
1:01:27say to you,
1:01:29you know, we used to I'm making an
1:01:30example. We used to have sex five times
1:01:32a week, and now I feel like it's like,
1:01:35you know, once a week, maybe. And I I
1:01:38think you're so attractive. I love I
1:01:39love it. Like, I don't feel any less
1:01:40attracted to you. And I know, you know,
1:01:42we've been busy and things like that,
1:01:43but like, I don't want to see that slip.
1:01:45I want you to be the person that fills
1:01:47all my desires and all my fantasies. I
1:01:49don't want to look at porn. I don't want
1:01:50to think about other things. I want to
1:01:52really be focused on you. Is there
1:01:53something I'm doing
1:01:55that's causing you to be less interested
1:01:57in me? Is there something I could do
1:01:59that would spark things better? Is there
1:02:01something going on that I need to know
1:02:03in terms of how you feel about me? But
1:02:05what if it's personal? And what if it's
1:02:07offensive?
1:02:08What if it's Isn't it better to know?
1:02:11If it's personal and it's offensive,
1:02:12isn't it better to know?
1:02:14Like, cuz I tell you, I'll come up with
1:02:15a thousand different reasons it might
1:02:16be, and only one of them might be
1:02:18accurate. And the other 999 might be
1:02:20complete garbage in my mind. Like, I
1:02:23might be convinced that it's cuz you're
1:02:24cheating. I might be convinced that it's
1:02:26I'm not attracted to you all of a sudden
1:02:28cuz, you know, my hair got grayer or I
1:02:29got a bad haircut or something stupid.
1:02:31What if it's that? Then wouldn't you
1:02:33rather know? Wouldn't you rather know?
1:02:35Wouldn't you And find some other And
1:02:37listen, I'm not saying, by the way,
1:02:39everything isn't everything, right?
1:02:42Like, there are things in relationships
1:02:43that you might just say, "Yeah, I don't
1:02:45know, that's changed. Like, I used to be
1:02:47really into that, and now I'm not
1:02:48anymore, you know?" Or that used to mean
1:02:50a lot to me, and now it doesn't. And
1:02:52that gives your partner a chance to say,
1:02:54"Well, look, it's still really important
1:02:56to me. So, can we find some common
1:02:58ground?" How frequent is sex the issue
1:03:02in divorce? As in not I'm not talking
1:03:05about affairs. I'm saying sexlessness.
1:03:07Yeah, that's a great question. So,
1:03:10And also, is it increasing? Yeah, so
1:03:12here's what I'll say. There There's
1:03:14reverse engineering the demise of a
1:03:16marriage is a very difficult thing for
1:03:18anybody to do because the two people in
1:03:20the relationship aren't even really
1:03:21fully aware of what's going on in
1:03:23themselves, much less each other. And
1:03:26then an outside observer asking them.
1:03:29So, like you can do all the studies you
1:03:31want of people's self-reported
1:03:33satisfaction or lack of satisfaction in
1:03:35a relationship or what caused them to
1:03:37become dissatisfied. That is so loaded
1:03:40up with people's delusion and people's
1:03:42projection and all these other things
1:03:44that I only even quantified. So,
1:03:45everything I'm saying, I'm saying as a
1:03:48divorce lawyer who I think is empathetic
1:03:51and who I think for a living puts myself
1:03:53in other people's mind to try to
1:03:56understand what they're doing and why
1:03:58they did what they did and come up with
1:04:00the best and worst possible excuses for
1:04:02it and then to tell that story, right?
1:04:04Like I'm a full contact storyteller.
1:04:06That's my job. So, and my job, if you're
1:04:09really honest, is to manipulate people's
1:04:11emotional state.
1:04:13My job is to make a judge feel good
1:04:14about my client, bad about the other
1:04:15side, make the other side feel scared,
1:04:17make my client feel safe. That's my job.
1:04:19It's to manipulate everybody's emotional
1:04:21state through the power of storytelling.
1:04:23That's what being a divorce lawyer is.
1:04:25It sounds sexier when I say it that way.
1:04:27But, that is what it is. So, when we
1:04:29look at that as the job,
1:04:32where does sex fall into that equation?
1:04:35It's
1:04:36it's everywhere in that equation.
1:04:38Because again, it is the thing that
1:04:40separates this relationship from other
1:04:42kinds of relationships. Sex is the thing
1:04:45that is definitional to a romantic
1:04:47relationship. Now again, will it always
1:04:50be the same? Will it always stay at the
1:04:52same level of importance? No. But, is it
1:04:55a great canary in the coal mine?
1:04:57That you know, like something's off with
1:04:59the sex now, that that that that that
1:05:01tragedy's not far behind? Yeah. Like
1:05:05because almost every couple
1:05:08when I talk to my side of the equation
1:05:11about when did this thing start when did
1:05:12the ship start to sink?
1:05:15There was certainly some change in sex.
1:05:17Because again, sex is definitional in
1:05:19terms of what distinguishes a romantic
1:05:22relationship from a platonic
1:05:25relationship. Cuz listen, guys, we can
1:05:27do this however we want as a society. We
1:05:30don't have to get married. We do not
1:05:31have to get married. We just have to We
1:05:34just have to reproduce.
1:05:36But we could just decide, "Hey, we're
1:05:37just going to reproduce and we're going
1:05:39to live in like colonies of platonic,
1:05:41you know, relationships and we'll just
1:05:43have sex for the purposes of breeding at
1:05:45certain times and then we'll figure out
1:05:46who gets to raise what kids and that'll
1:05:48be that." We don't do that. And And it's
1:05:51not like Well, we don't do that cuz we
1:05:53made a set of rules. Societies don't do
1:05:55that. They've never really done that.
1:05:58Like this There's somehow this
1:05:59permutation in the human and animal
1:06:01kingdom keeps coming up where we have
1:06:04pair bonds and we reproduce with the
1:06:05person who's our partner and then we
1:06:07sort of work together and you know, how
1:06:09much does the tribe, how much does the
1:06:10rest of the world get involved in that,
1:06:12how extended is the family, how extended
1:06:15is the tribe? That varies, right? From
1:06:17species to species, from culture to
1:06:18culture, from time to time. But we this
1:06:21fundamental idea of like reproduction
1:06:24between, you know, the male and the
1:06:25female of the species and there being
1:06:27some then continued interaction and a
1:06:29sharing of responsibilities towards the
1:06:31rearing of the young
1:06:33it's pretty common, right? So, what's
1:06:35the thing
1:06:37that makes
1:06:38A and B? It's the sex. Like there's
1:06:41there's there's sex. There's some
1:06:42romantic or sexual component to that
1:06:45relationship that then leads to
1:06:46reproduction of some kind. So, I think
1:06:49when you take that out of the equation
1:06:52or when there's a change in that,
1:06:53there's a disruption in the force,
1:06:55right? There's a disruption in the
1:06:56system. And then
1:06:59you can trace it back.
1:07:01Like yeah, we And again, sometimes it's
1:07:03not direct cause and effect. Like oh, we
1:07:05started having less sex and then we
1:07:06stopped being nice to each other.
1:07:08Sometimes we stop being nice to each
1:07:09other so we stopped having as much sex.
1:07:11But it's an element. It's always an
1:07:13element there, you know? And then that's
1:07:16my key piece of advice to everyone in
1:07:18the book that I try to say over and over
1:07:20and over again. If you had to like
1:07:21summarize it is pay attention.
1:07:24Just pay attention.
1:07:26To to what you're feeling and to what
1:07:28your partner's feeling. And then say it.
1:07:31You know, I I I say that
1:07:33all marital problems stem from two
1:07:36things.
1:07:37I don't know what I want and I don't
1:07:40know how to express it.
1:07:43And I think if you can figure that out,
1:07:44if you can figure out what you want
1:07:47and figure out how to express it, that's
1:07:49like 99% of the battle.
1:07:53When someone gets to you,
1:07:55how often do they go from getting to a
1:07:56divorce lawyer, having that
1:07:57conversation, we want to separate, to
1:08:00repairing and rebuilding and getting
1:08:02back to happiness?
1:08:03Yeah, it's a great question. So I
1:08:06as my career has progressed,
1:08:10I am now a guy who you hire when you're
1:08:12in a really bad situation. So I'm a
1:08:14trial lawyer. So now
1:08:17you know, you can do things with a
1:08:18scalpel and you can do them with a
1:08:19chainsaw. I'm a chainsaw now. Like now
1:08:22I'm you hire me cuz your situation's
1:08:25bad. Because you're more expensive? Is
1:08:28that it? No, I'm more expensive because
1:08:30I'm really good in high conflict
1:08:33situations. I'm really tactical. Mhm.
1:08:36I'm really strategic. I think 10 moves
1:08:38ahead and I outpace everyone with my
1:08:41work ethic. I wake up at 4:00 a.m. and I
1:08:43wake up very sharp and I wake and I'm
1:08:46immediately thinking about clients and
1:08:48cases and I'm dedicated to this work in
1:08:50an absolutely insane way. In a way that
1:08:53is in no way good as a human being. It's
1:08:56really really I'm a great lawyer. I'm
1:08:58questionable as a human being. But I'm
1:08:59really really good as a lawyer because
1:09:01I'm better at this than I've ever been
1:09:03in anything in my life. Have you ever
1:09:05seen someone get to you and then go back
1:09:07to perfect that like Yeah, for many
1:09:08years in my career, early in my career,
1:09:11the first decade or more of my career,
1:09:13when I handled more sort of regular
1:09:16people's divorces, you know,
1:09:18um
1:09:19yeah, I would frequently I would
1:09:21frequently try to steer people if I
1:09:23thought that that was possible. I still
1:09:24to this day, if I think it's possible
1:09:26for people to work something out either
1:09:28in individual counseling or in
1:09:31individual counseling and then maybe
1:09:32couples counseling, I will steer them in
1:09:34that direction, of course. Who cheats
1:09:37more, men or women?
1:09:38I think both men and women cheat with a
1:09:40tremendous amount of frequency. I think
1:09:43that
1:09:44um
1:09:45I don't think that you could really say
1:09:47one does it more than the other. I think
1:09:51that
1:09:52more
1:09:54more men are accused of having ruined
1:09:58the relationship by cheating
1:10:00than women are. Who's more dissatisfied
1:10:03with the the amount of sex, men or
1:10:05women?
1:10:05Men, generally. Men want more sex?
1:10:07want more sex. Just
1:10:09Women want more quality sex. Men are
1:10:12quantity-based in my experience coming
1:10:14to sex. And that's like men would rather
1:10:17have frequent
1:10:20sex that may not be the highest possible
1:10:22quality, but it like kind of gets the
1:10:24job done. I mean, it's the same reason
1:10:25why pornography is more popular with men
1:10:27than women. I think that men are just
1:10:29like I got to get the poison out of my
1:10:30system here. I got to get on with my
1:10:31day, and I'm not going to be able to
1:10:32think straight until I just get that
1:10:34over with. And so, I I think that that
1:10:36um
1:10:38women it's it's a it's a different I
1:10:41don't think women, you know, have don't
1:10:43find sex important. I I hate to make
1:10:45generalizations about about gender. Um
1:10:48but I from my seat,
1:10:51the number of men that come in and say
1:10:53to me like, yeah, like she's just not
1:10:54sleeping with me. Well, what did she
1:10:55expect? Like of course I slept with
1:10:57somebody else. Like, she was like
1:10:58sleeping with me once a week. She was
1:10:59sleeping with me once a month. I've had
1:11:01clients who came in and were like,
1:11:02"Yeah, we hadn't had sex in 6 years."
1:11:046 years? Like, first of all, why would
1:11:07you put up with that? Second of all, if
1:11:09you're this person's spouse, how what
1:11:11the hell did you think was going on? You
1:11:13thought things were okay? Like, "Yeah,
1:11:15we hadn't had sex in 6 years. We just
1:11:16forgot to do that." Like, I get if you
1:11:18didn't clean your gutters in 6 years or,
1:11:20you know, maybe like I get it if you
1:11:22didn't change your oil in a year. Like,
1:11:24it's a bad idea, but like I get it how
1:11:25it could slip your mind. Like, "Oh my
1:11:26god, I haven't been to the dentist in a
1:11:28year." But, sex? You must have heard a
1:11:30lot of affair stories. Oh my god.
1:11:33Please, if you could have like a PhD in
1:11:34infidelity, I would have it. Yeah, I
1:11:36mean, it's cuz cheating is a huge
1:11:38component to divorces. So many divorces.
1:11:41But, the the question is always cause or
1:11:43effect. And the danger
1:11:46of putting so much emphasis on cheating
1:11:48is that it it's an oversimplification.
1:11:51So, someone comes in and goes, "We're
1:11:52getting divorced." Why? "Cuz he's
1:11:53sleeping with his secretary."
1:11:56I get it. Like, yes, that's true. That
1:11:58is one of the variables that has led to
1:12:00your divorce. But, you you hadn't slept
1:12:03with him in 3 years. So, I'm not saying
1:12:06that makes the cheating forgivable, but
1:12:09you're saying you had a really super
1:12:11awesome healthy marriage and then this
1:12:12nefarious secretary came into the
1:12:14picture and suddenly he was wooed away.
1:12:16No, there were conditions
1:12:19that made that very likely to happen,
1:12:22right? And so, let's start going back a
1:12:25little further in the cause. Like, the
1:12:26truth is at the bottom of a bottomless
1:12:28pit.
1:12:29So, we can try to reverse engineer this
1:12:33and say, "Well, he slept with his
1:12:34secretary cuz you weren't sleeping with
1:12:35Well, I wasn't sleeping with him cuz he
1:12:36wasn't nice to me." Well, I wasn't nice
1:12:38to him because he was never paying any
1:12:39attention to me. Well, I wasn't paying
1:12:40attention to her because what did I want
1:12:42to pay attention to? She's hasn't
1:12:43changed at all or she's changed so much
1:12:45and she's nothing like she used to be.
1:12:46There And And again, everyone, you'll be
1:12:49shocked to hear,
1:12:51when they tell the story of their life,
1:12:53they're usually the hero.
1:12:55They rarely come into my office and go,
1:12:57"Listen, I'm a piece of garbage."
1:13:00You know? But, I will tell you when it
1:13:02comes to cheating, sometimes they do.
1:13:05I was going to say, you must have had
1:13:06people come in and admit things to you
1:13:07about their current affairs that you
1:13:09just blow your mind. Is there a
1:13:10particular example where you go, "That
1:13:12was the most shocking example that I had
1:13:15heard of someone
1:13:17deceiving
1:13:18the marital commitment?" Yeah, I mean
1:13:22I've had people come in and tell me
1:13:23stories that I just think to myself,
1:13:25like, how how did you actually like just
1:13:29the engineering of it. Like, I've had
1:13:30people who came in and they had multiple
1:13:32They had two families happening at once
1:13:34and neither of them knew about the
1:13:35other.
1:13:36Like that that
1:13:38the mistress who he started a family
1:13:41with, like, thought he was divorced and
1:13:44the wife thought that he was traveling
1:13:45for business and like he would literally
1:13:48have Christmas with both. He would have
1:13:50Thanksgiving with both. Like, he would
1:13:52and he just found a way to sort of
1:13:53logistically do it and I've I've seen
1:13:55things like that many times. I mean,
1:13:57I've seen people I I It's almost become
1:13:59a cliché that people who sleep with
1:14:02their
1:14:03their sister-in-law or their
1:14:04brother-in-law or their cousin. Oh, and
1:14:07I haven't seen mother-in-law yet.
1:14:09Father-in-law? Um I have seen
1:14:10father-in-law. Yeah, I have seen
1:14:11father-in-law. Yeah, I saw that saw that
1:14:13one. I There's a chapter in my book
1:14:15about nannies. About people sleep with
1:14:17the nanny, that's pretty common.
1:14:18Why do you you talk in the book about
1:14:20how wealthy clients like to sleep with
1:14:21the nanny? Yeah. I don't know what
1:14:24that's about. I mean, I do I have a
1:14:25theory about it and I I I think that
1:14:27what I call the nanny fascination I
1:14:30think that it's not that hard to
1:14:32understand. Like, the nanny is a lot of
1:14:36the
1:14:38characteristics of the wife, right?
1:14:40She's good with the kids. She's there to
1:14:42be a supportive other to the husband. Um
1:14:45she's a helpmate, you know, but without
1:14:48any of the autonomy and agency, without
1:14:51any of the Like, she's an employee at
1:14:53the end of the day.
1:14:55So much simpler of a relationship in the
1:14:57sense that it's like, you got to do a
1:14:58good job or I'm going to fire you, you
1:14:59know? So Not talking back. Yeah, don't
1:15:02talk back cuz I'm your employer, you
1:15:04know, and you're not going to So, I
1:15:06think I get it, you know, I get it. I
1:15:08also think too that
1:15:10And this is the This is the This is
1:15:12dangerous ground, especially in the year
1:15:14of our Lord 2024, but
1:15:17I think she's also a version of the
1:15:19wife.
1:15:20Like
1:15:21she's a version of the wife when the
1:15:23wife was just a woman. Like, she has a
1:15:25life outside the home. Like, she
1:15:28when she's not nannying
1:15:30she's out doing stuff. And so, she's got
1:15:33things to talk about. Like, she's gone
1:15:35places, she does things, there's
1:15:36something mysterious about her, you
1:15:38know? And I I think that's
1:15:40one of The advice I give in the book is
1:15:42is that I think that um wives can
1:15:45can embrace the part of themselves
1:15:47that's the nanny. Like, take the time to
1:15:50like don't let your spouse and your
1:15:52children eclipse who you are. Like, who
1:15:55you are is who your husband fell in love
1:15:56with. Like, your your your kids exist
1:15:59because a man and a woman found each
1:16:01other attractive, you know? And and so,
1:16:04don't don't forget in your desire to be
1:16:07a good parent and your desire to be a
1:16:09good partner, don't forget to be really
1:16:11good to yourself and to to cultivate
1:16:13your interests and your passions and to
1:16:15try to enjoy them as best you can, you
1:16:17know, without shirking Obviously, none
1:16:19of us wants to shirk our
1:16:20responsibilities to our families and to
1:16:21our children, but you're important.
1:16:24Like, I think I think people are The
1:16:26husband and the wife, you know, are
1:16:27important. Or or in a same-sex marriage,
1:16:29husband-husband, wife-wife, so you're
1:16:31important to each other, you know?
1:16:32Remember who you are. Remember the value
1:16:34you brought to the relationship. People
1:16:37often go to divorce lawyers when their
1:16:38marriages break down. But listen, I'm a
1:16:40huge fan, maybe the biggest fan you'll
1:16:41ever meet, of
1:16:43serial killer documentaries. Sure. And
1:16:46just murder documentaries period.
1:16:47There's not one I haven't seen. I've
1:16:48seen them all. And in those
1:16:49documentaries, the first one of the
1:16:50first things you learn is that if the
1:16:52wife goes missing,
1:16:54Like 80% of the time it's
1:16:55it's the husband.
1:16:57Um and I was I was just thinking about
1:16:59how that kind of some people might see
1:17:00it as a choice. Good for you. Yeah. I
1:17:04shouldn't be laughing here, but or take
1:17:05care of myself. Listen, there's a reason
1:17:08because
1:17:10I I understand how trapped people feel.
1:17:14I think that
1:17:16you sign on for this thing that feels so
1:17:20good. Love we fall in love so fast. Have
1:17:24you seen that documentary on Netflix,
1:17:25American Dream? Was American
1:17:28What was that documentary on Netflix
1:17:29where the guy has a wife and two kids
1:17:32and then he meets a younger woman Mhm.
1:17:35out and about at work and he instead of
1:17:37getting a divorce, he decides to murder
1:17:41his wife and the two baby girls, smother
1:17:44them both, and dump them in a barrel at
1:17:45work. And he's seemingly And I obviously
1:17:50he's not, but seemingly He's still
1:17:51working. No, he's still seemingly a
1:17:53normal guy Yeah. who, as you say, just
1:17:56looked like he was trapped in a
1:17:58situation where he met someone new, had
1:18:00this family, didn't know how to handle
1:18:01it, and made this horrific decision.
1:18:04Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think um I mean,
1:18:07that's an extreme example, but I
1:18:10I actually, when you spend enough time
1:18:13with people who are in
1:18:15horrifyingly awful situations, like
1:18:18they've they're having an affair for
1:18:20many years,
1:18:22they've
1:18:23hidden money, or they've done, you know,
1:18:25like they
1:18:26they've engaged in transgressions that
1:18:28if their spouse found out about it, they
1:18:30would just be like, are you kidding me,
1:18:32you know?
1:18:33And I think most of the time like it
1:18:36starts
1:18:38with just one sort of bad choice, you
1:18:40know, and then that bad choice leads to
1:18:42a series of choice like it you know,
1:18:44they always say I mean if you watch
1:18:45enough serial killer things, it's not
1:18:47the crime, it's the cover-up. Mhm. You
1:18:49know, you don't get caught for the
1:18:49crime, you get caught for the cover-up.
1:18:51It's like the things you do to try to
1:18:53cover your tracks is the thing that
1:18:54leave the tracks. And it's it's the
1:18:57same. I I I think Have you seen murder
1:18:59in your practice? Do you deal with that?
1:19:01Is that part of your work?
1:19:02I you know, thank God, I I've only had
1:19:05one client in 25 years of practice who
1:19:10there was an active effort made by their
1:19:12spouse to try to kill them. And they
1:19:15they ran her over four times and stabbed
1:19:17her. Um thought she was dead, left her
1:19:20for dead, and 6 months of surgeries and
1:19:23all kinds of things later, she survived.
1:19:25She's well. She has injuries for the
1:19:27rest of her life that will plague her,
1:19:28but she is alive, and he is in prison
1:19:30for the rest of his life.
1:19:32Uh that's thank God the only time I've
1:19:34ever seen that happen. I mean, I see a
1:19:36lot of domestic violence. I see a lot of
1:19:38intimate partner abuse. She was your
1:19:40client in that case?
1:19:40She was my client in that case, yeah.
1:19:42She was your client before that happened
1:19:43to her?
1:19:44Yeah, she was my client before that
1:19:45happened to her. He was a he was a
1:19:47a perpetrator of domestic violence for
1:19:49many years, but there was nothing in his
1:19:51history that would lead you to believe
1:19:53that he had that propensity towards
1:19:55violence. The divorce was going very
1:19:57badly for him. I was doing my job very
1:20:00well. Um and he you know, he I don't
1:20:04want to say he snapped cuz it gives it
1:20:05too much credit. Um I I I think he just
1:20:09got it in his head that she was his
1:20:10enemy and the cause of everything bad
1:20:12that had ever happened to him and that
1:20:13killing her would be better choice, and
1:20:16he got her to meet him in a
1:20:18a a a sort of remote location, a parking
1:20:21lot of a hotel under a false pretense
1:20:23that he wanted to give her something
1:20:24related to the kids or something. And uh
1:20:27he stabbed her several times, then ran
1:20:28her over several times. He did it
1:20:30himself?
1:20:31himself, yeah, he did it
1:20:33And it was it was shocking.
1:20:37I mean, you you don't want it What's
1:20:39happened more commonly is I've had
1:20:41clients who've committed suicide and
1:20:44self-harm. And I've had clients who
1:20:46their spouse
1:20:48you know, committed suicide. That's
1:20:49happened many times where people I think
1:20:51feel
1:20:52they've they're losing everything. Their
1:20:54whole life's falling apart. They can't
1:20:55imagine what their post-divorce life
1:20:58will be or they're so horrified by the
1:21:01behavior they engaged in during that
1:21:03they they think that it's just
1:21:05impossible to get out of this situation.
1:21:08So, you would be working with a client
1:21:10and then you get a notification, an
1:21:11email, a message saying that they've
1:21:13ended their life.
1:21:13Yeah.
1:21:14Yeah. It's more
1:21:16commonly happened to me. It's only
1:21:18happened to me where I a client I lost a
1:21:20client that way once. It's happened four
1:21:24times on the other side.
1:21:26Where I got an email saying this
1:21:27person's been found and
1:21:29um
1:21:30you know, it ends the case, obviously.
1:21:32So.
1:21:35It's a hard
1:21:37thing as a professional because I know
1:21:41that I've done a lot to make this
1:21:43person's life very difficult because
1:21:46that's my job. But if that person had
1:21:49hired me
1:21:51you know, a month before their spouse
1:21:54did, I would have been arguing for their
1:21:56benefit. I would have been arguing as
1:21:58their advocate. I would have been trying
1:21:59to help them as best I can. And instead
1:22:02I was hired by their spouse and my job's
1:22:04to kind of take them apart as best I
1:22:06can. Like I'm a weapon.
1:22:07You know, a divorce lawyer is a weapon
1:22:09and a weapon in the hands of a good
1:22:10person is protects things and a weapon
1:22:13in the hands of a villain is very
1:22:14harmful. So.
1:22:17Has your work ever made you cry?
1:22:19Yeah. Sure. Absolutely.
1:22:21I think I've cried for a lot of reasons
1:22:23about my work. I've cried from
1:22:25frustration when I couldn't
1:22:27when justice wasn't served and and I
1:22:30felt
1:22:31that I could have done more or different
1:22:34um out of frustration I've cried. I've
1:22:37cried I think I've cried more often out
1:22:40of beauty. I I
1:22:43I I'm much more welled up by
1:22:46what I by things that are beautiful to
1:22:48me than things that are upsetting to me.
1:22:51Like I
1:22:52I'm astounded by the strength of people
1:22:54sometimes. I'm astounded by the
1:22:57resilience of people. Um Can you think
1:22:59of an example?
1:23:02On either end of the spectrum? Yeah,
1:23:03yeah. Um
1:23:07You know, I had a client I got him his
1:23:09dog back.
1:23:11You know, there's something about
1:23:12animals that I think is just so
1:23:14like it's just so pure how much we love
1:23:16them. Like they don't really
1:23:18they don't care what we make, they don't
1:23:19care
1:23:20if we're impressive or not or if anybody
1:23:22bought our book, if anybody how many
1:23:23views we have or clicks we have. Like
1:23:25they don't They just love us, you know?
1:23:28Maybe it's cuz we feed them.
1:23:29Maybe it's cuz we scratch them the right
1:23:31way, but I want to believe that it's
1:23:32just that they're just so much heart and
1:23:34so much love, you know?
1:23:36And I had this guy who
1:23:38at the beginning of the case he just
1:23:39said, "Look, man, I don't care. Like I
1:23:41don't care what I have to pay her. I
1:23:42don't care what it get me my dog.
1:23:44Like just get me my dog. She doesn't
1:23:45really love the dog, but she took the
1:23:47dog cuz she knows how much I love the
1:23:49dog. So just get me my dog back. Like I
1:23:52just want my dog back." And he was this
1:23:53older gruff guy. He's like the last guy
1:23:57you would think, you know, would like
1:23:58that the dog would be that important to
1:24:00him.
1:24:01And we fought really hard. We And we got
1:24:03him his dog back. And I remember when I
1:24:05came out and I ran down the like, "Okay,
1:24:07I got you this. We got you this. We got
1:24:09you this." And you And the dog and he
1:24:11started crying. And I started crying
1:24:13like a child, you know? Because I There
1:24:15was just something so beautiful about
1:24:17like that Yeah, that's what mattered to
1:24:18him. Like that he got his dog back, you
1:24:20know? And And I I could imagine in my
1:24:23head like the the reunion between those
1:24:25two and that was very moving to me.
1:24:29The impermanence of a relationship with
1:24:32a dog is something that I've heard you
1:24:33talk about before.
1:24:35And how we can sort of the impermanence,
1:24:37the fact that we only have dogs for a
1:24:38short time. I've got a dog as well and
1:24:40I've had it since it was a puppy and and
1:24:41now it has gray hairs and it's older and
1:24:43it doesn't run like it used to and
1:24:45little Pablo I'm get I'm now realizing
1:24:46that he's in the last season of his
1:24:48life.
1:24:49Yeah.
1:24:50Um and it just makes you want to
1:24:52play with them more and cherish those
1:24:54moments more and be kinder and give them
1:24:56another treat and
1:24:58Yeah, and we're we're
1:25:00if we're honest
1:25:02we're we're always losing everyone all
1:25:05the time.
1:25:07Like and and that's why to love anything
1:25:11is insane.
1:25:13Right? Because to love anything is to
1:25:16expose yourself to the inevitability of
1:25:18losing it.
1:25:19And I've learned that I learned that as
1:25:21a hospice volunteer for many years
1:25:23and I've learned that as a human being
1:25:25and I've learned that as a divorce
1:25:26lawyer. That like we're all losing
1:25:28everything all the time. Even our child.
1:25:31Like you have a child
1:25:32that child tomorrow the child they were
1:25:35the day before is dead. It's gone.
1:25:37They're a new thing every day until
1:25:40you know, until all of us are ghosts.
1:25:42Until all of us are gone. And so to me
1:25:48keeping that awareness in your mind
1:25:51is everything. Like like you you honor
1:25:55that dog by saying, you know what? I I
1:25:58took for granted when this was a puppy
1:26:00peeing on everything and running around
1:26:03and
1:26:03eating all my shoes, you know, like I I
1:26:07didn't realize like there was a limited
1:26:09amount of time. Like there is a there is
1:26:11a finite number of times you will watch
1:26:14the sunset.
1:26:15You don't know that number but it
1:26:17exists. You just don't know it yet.
1:26:21There's only so many more summers that
1:26:23you will be here to see. You just don't
1:26:26know the number. It could be one.
1:26:28It could be a hundred. I I It's probably
1:26:30not a hundred. Right? So, I think to me,
1:26:36when people say like, "Well, how is a
1:26:37divorce lawyer so like, you know, into
1:26:39love and such a romantic at heart?"
1:26:41Like, how could you not be?
1:26:43How could you not be? When you're
1:26:45confronted every day with how fragile
1:26:48love is and how transient it is and how
1:26:51powerful it is. It's It means so much to
1:26:55us. So much of what we do all day is to
1:26:58find love and to be loved and to feel
1:27:00worthy of love. And And And then we have
1:27:03it
1:27:04and we just kind of forget we have it
1:27:07until it's going away. And then it's too
1:27:10late or it's gone and now it's
1:27:12completely too late. Like, if you
1:27:13realize it was Pablo, You're done.
1:27:15Yeah. If you realize how amazing Pablo
1:27:19is when Pablo's gone, shame on you.
1:27:23Like, you should When you pick him up
1:27:25and smell him, you know, like that's the
1:27:26To me, like that's everything. There
1:27:28There's a I don't know if you ever read
1:27:29Thich Nhat Hanh's work, the Buddhist
1:27:31monk. So, Thich Nhat Hanh was a a a um
1:27:34a Vietnamese Buddhist monk. He was
1:27:36nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize in
1:27:38like the '80s. He wrote some beautiful
1:27:40books. He passed away a few years ago,
1:27:41but he wrote um several books. One of
1:27:43them being Peace is a beautiful one.
1:27:46He's written a whole bunch of books.
1:27:47Peace in Every Step.
1:27:48But, he he as a Buddhist monk has this
1:27:51mindfulness exercise.
1:27:53And I've said it to people I've shared
1:27:55it with people a couple times. They
1:27:56always look at me like I'm insane when I
1:27:58say it. So, I'll share it with you
1:27:59because you you brought up death.
1:28:01If I bring it up too much in polite
1:28:02conversation, people just think I'm
1:28:04morbid and then they're like, "All this
1:28:05guy does is talk about death and
1:28:06divorce. We got to hang out with like
1:28:08nicer, more fun people."
1:28:10But, he has this mindfulness exercise
1:28:11and it's this. He says, when you hug
1:28:13someone,
1:28:14think about the fact that they're there
1:28:16and you're hugging them.
1:28:18Then, close your eyes
1:28:21and they think about that they've died.
1:28:25And this is the last time you're hugging
1:28:27them before you let go of their body and
1:28:28it's taken away.
1:28:31And then remember that they're alive and
1:28:33you're hugging them.
1:28:35Like,
1:28:36how could that not choke you up? Like,
1:28:39how could you not Like, when you hug
1:28:41your dog,
1:28:43you you will someday most likely have to
1:28:46put your dog down, right? You will have
1:28:48to make the very painful, but very
1:28:50responsible and loving decision that the
1:28:53best of this dog's life is over and that
1:28:56there's nothing but pain ahead. I've had
1:28:57to do it several times in my life. It's
1:28:59heartbreaking, but it's the final act of
1:29:02love and service to something that
1:29:03you've had dominion over and taken care
1:29:05of and have the duty of taking care of.
1:29:08And I I know every time you
1:29:10I've had to do that three times and just
1:29:14smelling it and going, "Oh, that's it.
1:29:17Like, that's it.
1:29:19It's gone now."
1:29:26And the memory of that scent,
1:29:30it'll fade.
1:29:33But like right now,
1:29:36that dog's alive. Pablo's alive. And you
1:29:38can smell him.
1:29:40And and and and you're not letting go of
1:29:43him now. He's there. He's there right
1:29:45now. Like, so how do you not
1:29:48right now
1:29:50just breathe that in every chance you
1:29:52have?
1:29:53Because you don't know how many more
1:29:55times you'll have. And and
1:29:57I don't when people say to me like,
1:30:00"Well, how can you think so much about
1:30:02death? Or how can you think so much
1:30:03about breakups?" Like, how can you not?
1:30:06Haven't you ever lost anything? Have you
1:30:08forgotten
1:30:10what it was like to have it?
1:30:11Like, did you not
1:30:13keep in your mind like how beautiful
1:30:16this was and how it's gone? Like, my
1:30:18mother died 8 years ago.
1:30:20And
1:30:22I I found a old video tape that I didn't
1:30:25even know like existed and it was
1:30:27my dad had like gotten a video camera
1:30:29and he'd like shot, you know, all these
1:30:31video and I could hear my mother's
1:30:32voice.
1:30:34And like hearing it, I went
1:30:36like it
1:30:37Oh my god, like that was her voice.
1:30:39Like, I haven't heard it in 8 years.
1:30:41And I heard it again and it was so
1:30:43familiar, you know, and I thought to
1:30:45myself, "Oh my god, like I'm so glad I
1:30:47got to hear that." But when she was
1:30:49alive,
1:30:51I never thought like, "Oh my god, she's
1:30:53here. Like, I get to hear her voice
1:30:55because someday
1:30:57that'll be gone. Like, it'll be gone.
1:30:59The memory of her voice will be gone. It
1:31:01will fade. Every like tears in rain, it
1:31:03will just fade."
1:31:05And so,
1:31:06to to me, like that if we could just
1:31:09have that presence of mind when it comes
1:31:12to love, like love is not permanently
1:31:15gifted. It is loaned.
1:31:18And the people you love, the dog you
1:31:20love, the people they're loaned to you
1:31:23and you're loaned to them. And if you
1:31:25could just remember every day to treat
1:31:27it like something that's impermanent and
1:31:30that you're losing all the time. Like,
1:31:31cuz I I'll tell you something, I think
1:31:33it's insane to love anything
1:31:35because of the pain that it's going to
1:31:36cause. But oh my god, man, I love that
1:31:39pain because it means I got to feel it.
1:31:42Like, I I I know when I got my dog Coba,
1:31:47I only got Coba
1:31:49because Buster died.
1:31:51If he hadn't died,
1:31:53then I never would have had room in my
1:31:54life to get another dog.
1:31:56So, in some horrible way, I guess I'm
1:31:59glad that he died like but that's not
1:32:02how it works. How it works is that he
1:32:04died, Buster, and I went, "I will never
1:32:07love again. I will never do this to
1:32:09myself again. I will never feel this
1:32:11pain again. It's the worst thing in the
1:32:13world. I will never expose myself to
1:32:15that."
1:32:16And then
1:32:18a friend called me up and said, "Hey,
1:32:20man, we're doing an adoption event with
1:32:22this dog, and I just need you to watch
1:32:23him for the night. He's a puppy. He's
1:32:25got mange. He's a little goofy thing,
1:32:27but like I just need you to watch him
1:32:29for the night." And I was like, "Yeah,
1:32:30you know what? I don't have the kids
1:32:31this weekend. Like, I'll watch a dog for
1:32:33a night."
1:32:35And then You fell in love.
1:32:37brings this stupid dog, this little
1:32:39stupid mange-ridden worms,
1:32:43and he walks in to my apartment, and he
1:32:46pees immediately on the floor, and I
1:32:48thought, "Oh, I just got a dog.
1:32:52I just got a dog again. I'm doing this
1:32:54again."
1:32:55And that was 13 years ago.
1:32:58And man, I'm so glad. Like, I'm so glad.
1:33:01And and he'll
1:33:02he'll sit there, you know, with his
1:33:04little gray face now,
1:33:06and he'll sit there next to me, and
1:33:07he'll look at me. He's as as crazy about
1:33:09me as I am about him, cuz he knows I
1:33:11saved him, and I know he saved me.
1:33:14And he looks at me, and I think to
1:33:16myself,
1:33:18"Oh, you're going to kill me.
1:33:20Like, you're going to kill me when I
1:33:21lose you."
1:33:22And it's going to happen sooner rather
1:33:23than later. I'm not going to have
1:33:24another 13 years. I'm lucky if I have
1:33:26another year.
1:33:27But man, like
1:33:29I don't know. I'll I'll do it I I'm so
1:33:32glad I did it. He saved you. Yeah. Yeah,
1:33:35cuz he
1:33:36he he reminded me of a thing I forget,
1:33:39that we all forget, that I have an
1:33:41infinite capacity for love.
1:33:45No matter what I lose.
1:33:49Cuz we're just
1:33:51losing all of it all the time.
1:33:54But
1:33:55that's not a reason not to love. That's
1:33:57not a reason not to like it's
1:33:59it's so brave to love.
1:34:03And it's only brave because it's scary.
1:34:06Like
1:34:07if you're not scared, it's not brave.
1:34:08It's only brave cuz it's terrifying.
1:34:11It's terrifying to know like this
1:34:14thing's going to break my heart.
1:34:17Then I'm going to let it. I'm going to
1:34:18let it break my heart because the joy
1:34:20that it's going to give me in the
1:34:21interim like I wouldn't trade that for
1:34:23anything in the world. And you know,
1:34:25right now if you say to me when Kaba
1:34:26passes away
1:34:28will I ever do it again?
1:34:30I'm like, nope, absolutely not.
1:34:32Absolutely not. But you know what? I'm
1:34:34lying. I'm lying. Like I'm lying. I'll
1:34:37I'll love again. I know it. I know it.
1:34:39And and I think it's the same thing with
1:34:42romantic love.
1:34:43Our hearts get broken.
1:34:45We we we you know, we fall apart. We
1:34:48break in relationship and we heal in
1:34:50relationship.
1:34:52And we recover from that breaking in
1:34:53relationship. And I I think there's
1:34:55something
1:34:57really really important there.
1:35:04You You've really accomplished
1:35:05something. You're the first person to
1:35:06get me to cry on a podcast. It's pretty
1:35:08it's really something to be proud of. I
1:35:10cry all the time though to answer your
1:35:11question. Yeah, I cry constantly. For a
1:35:13guy who's like tattooed up and down and
1:35:15does Brazilian Jiu Jitsu for fun, I cry
1:35:17constantly. Usually because something's
1:35:19beautiful.
1:35:21I think that that's
1:35:23what moves me the most is how beautiful
1:35:25it all is. Like I
1:35:27I think this is all
1:35:29it's a game we can't win, you know? And
1:35:31we just keep playing it. And that's so
1:35:34lovely. Like it's so brave. It's so
1:35:37it's so cool that like it's all ending
1:35:39all the time and we just keep doing it,
1:35:41you know? We just keep doing it cuz if
1:35:44there's something in our hearts that
1:35:46wants it, you know? Maybe that's I don't
1:35:48know. Like I'm not a religious person,
1:35:49but
1:35:51maybe that's some insight into the
1:35:53nature of God that that like we we come
1:35:56from something and we disconnect and
1:35:58then we spend all our life trying to
1:35:59reconnect to something.
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1:37:01It's interesting cuz you're I saw in
1:37:02your face when we halfway through the
1:37:04conversation that um you were talking
1:37:06about how beautiful love was. Yeah. And
1:37:08I could see the emotion in your face
1:37:09when you're talking about how beautiful
1:37:10love is. And it's it's contrasting
1:37:11because at the start of the
1:37:12conversation, I would have thought that
1:37:13you thought marriage and love was just
1:37:15this like terrible idea. Obviously,
1:37:16there's there's a distinction between
1:37:17the two. It's everything. No, it's
1:37:19everything. I I think
1:37:21I think doing what I do for a living, I
1:37:23see that better than most people. Like
1:37:25they because we just keep putting these
1:37:27giant bets on the table. And we wouldn't
1:37:29do it if we didn't think the prize was
1:37:31worth it, you know? But see, I also
1:37:33believe too
1:37:37that we need to start looking at
1:37:39romantic relationships like chapters in
1:37:41a long book.
1:37:43Like I don't Soulmates. We But but then
1:37:46Well, see, a soulmate I have to tell
1:37:47like I owe them a tremendous debt of
1:37:49gratitude because they they really
1:37:51helped facilitate divorces an industry.
1:37:55Because the idea
1:37:56that we have a soulmate
1:38:00and that that's the one
1:38:02always creates the possibility that A,
1:38:05this person's perfect for us. Well, how
1:38:06could I be dissatisfied with them if
1:38:08they're perfect for me? I must have
1:38:09picked the wrong one. And look, that one
1:38:11over there, that might be the perfect
1:38:14one.
1:38:15Why? Because I feel as great about them
1:38:17as I did about this one when I first met
1:38:18it, but I just don't remember that as
1:38:19much anymore. So, the soulmate thing,
1:38:22oh, it's great for business for me, but
1:38:24I think it's terrible for human beings.
1:38:26I think you probably could have a whole
1:38:28bunch of people
1:38:30that you could have had a very
1:38:31satisfying romantic relationship with.
1:38:33Again, not to keep comparing things to
1:38:35dogs, but like
1:38:37because you love the dog you have now,
1:38:39does it mean you didn't really love the
1:38:41dog you had before? Like, that's
1:38:42ridiculous. It's like people have
1:38:44children don't go like, well, I you
1:38:47know, I couldn't love anything more than
1:38:48this other child, so I'm not having any
1:38:49more children because, you know, I
1:38:50couldn't possibly love. It's like, no,
1:38:52you have an infinite capacity for love.
1:38:54So, if you have two children, you have
1:38:55five children, like you love all the
1:38:56children that you have, you know? So,
1:38:58It's chapters. You're saying it's I
1:39:00think you should look at relationships
1:39:01as chapters. Just because
1:39:04a relationship ends
1:39:07in something other than death, right? It
1:39:09ends in divorce, it ends in a breakup,
1:39:11whatever it might be.
1:39:13It doesn't mean it wasn't successful.
1:39:15Did Did you leave it a better person
1:39:17than than you came to it with? Did Did
1:39:19they? Did your partner? Did Did you
1:39:21learn from it? Did you learn what you
1:39:24want or don't want? Did you learn how
1:39:26you should behave or how you shouldn't
1:39:28behave? Did you learn something about
1:39:31how you want and need to be loved
1:39:34or how you
1:39:36fail in your attempts to convey love to
1:39:39someone else? Like, it Why not look at
1:39:42it as what was good for me in this
1:39:45chapter
1:39:47may not be the sustaining thing. Like,
1:39:49who you find attractive and what's
1:39:51compelling in your 20s and your 30s and
1:39:54your 40s and your 50s is going to be
1:39:55different. You talk to a lot of
1:39:5620-something year olds and say, "What
1:39:57car do you want when you're in your
1:39:5820s?" Lambo. "I want the Lambo." Great.
1:40:01You going to put a car seat in a Lambo?
1:40:02If you get one car and that's car you're
1:40:05going to drive for the rest of your
1:40:06life, okay? And you've never been 50
1:40:10yet. So, you don't know what you're
1:40:12going to want when you're 50. Now,
1:40:14there's this idealized thing where
1:40:15everybody goes like, "Well, but you
1:40:17know, you'll grow together and then what
1:40:19you'll want you'll grow together and
1:40:20you'll change to you." Okay,
1:40:22where what are you basing that on? Like,
1:40:24is that is that a thing? Is that
1:40:26demonstrably true? Or is that just like
1:40:28your hope? Like, we we hope we'll grow
1:40:31together and we'll grow in complimentary
1:40:33ways. Cuz why? Cuz of proximity?
1:40:36Cuz we're near each other, we're going
1:40:38to grow in complimentary ways? Like, is
1:40:40that naive? I think that might be naive.
1:40:42Like, I don't have any proof of that.
1:40:45But, so many of the
1:40:46couples you see,
1:40:48they must be confused as to whether this
1:40:52relationship is actually broken or we're
1:40:54just like not doing the work. I think
1:40:56that about a lot of my friends. Like,
1:40:57they'll they'll come to me and say, "My
1:40:58relationship is struggling." And the
1:40:59first thing you try and figure out is
1:41:01whether this is something that is
1:41:02fixable or it's they're the wrong And
1:41:05what do you do in that equation? You
1:41:08compare, right? Yeah.
1:41:10You compare. And what are you compared
1:41:12to? Something fake. Yeah, you
1:41:15compare to something fake. You compare
1:41:18it to the rom-com. Yeah. Which is
1:41:20basically porn for women.
1:41:22Yeah.
1:41:23Right? Like, it's it's an idealized,
1:41:25stylized version. You saw Titanic. You
1:41:29You know why they had that perfect
1:41:31romance? Cuz he died before he could
1:41:33screw it up. You think 10 years later
1:41:35she'd have been like, "Keep painting
1:41:37your French girls." Go, "No, she
1:41:38wouldn't have." She'd have been like,
1:41:39"Forget it. What are you doing? Get a
1:41:41job." You know, there would have been
1:41:42issues in that relationship. So, it only
1:41:45was perfect because it ended. It ended
1:41:47before they could screw it up. You know,
1:41:48they end the movie like the the old
1:41:50thing I think was Orson Welles who said,
1:41:52you know, whether something's a comedy
1:41:53or a tragedy depends on when you end the
1:41:54story.
1:41:56You know, so it's relationships. Like,
1:41:58you ever want to test that theory in the
1:41:59reverse? Go out with a couple that's
1:42:01unhappy with each other.
1:42:03And then say to them, "So, tell me about
1:42:05how you met."
1:42:06All of a sudden they like soften
1:42:07tremendously.
1:42:09And they start like talking about who
1:42:11the who they were and who their partner
1:42:13was back in that day when they when it
1:42:15was all a possibility and and they were
1:42:17choosing each other, you know? And so, I
1:42:20think there's tremendous value
1:42:24in
1:42:25you know, a great example.
1:42:27I always try to like take
1:42:28non-relationship examples of
1:42:29relationship items.
1:42:33So, one of my sons, when he was a
1:42:34teenager,
1:42:36was very critical of me as a father. He
1:42:38was very like sort of dismissive of me
1:42:40as a father. We were talking about
1:42:42something and he sort of said like,
1:42:43"Well, Dad, you know, you're not like
1:42:45the perfect father." And I said, "Well,
1:42:46first of all, like, I don't know what a
1:42:47perfect father is."
1:42:49I was like, "But, what are you comparing
1:42:51me to?
1:42:53Your idea
1:42:55of a perfect father?
1:42:57Or like a father you actually know and
1:43:00have seen?
1:43:02Because here's the thing, if you compare
1:43:04me to your perfect father in your
1:43:06imagination, I'm going to compare you to
1:43:08my perfect son in my imagination. And
1:43:11guess what? You suck.
1:43:13Cuz cuz we all suck compared to the
1:43:16ideal of our imagination. And by the
1:43:19way, I said to him, "Learn this lesson
1:43:21now. Because if you compare a woman
1:43:24you're in a relationship with with your
1:43:26imagined ideal of a woman,
1:43:29I promise you you will be dissatisfied
1:43:32for the rest of your life in your
1:43:33relationship.
1:43:35And if she compares you to her idealized
1:43:37imagination of what the perfect man
1:43:39would be, she's going to be
1:43:41disappointed. We need to start comparing
1:43:43relationships
1:43:45to real relationships. But how are we
1:43:47going to do that if we're so deeply
1:43:50committed to lying to each other about
1:43:53how great our relationship is? What's
1:43:55the quickest someone's gone from
1:43:57marriage to divorce that you've seen? In
1:43:59terms of how long the relationship
1:44:00lasted? Yeah. 48 hours. You're joking.
1:44:02No, 48 hours. But that's usually an
1:44:04annulment. That's I mean, Vegas, baby.
1:44:07Um
1:44:08yeah, that happens sometimes. That
1:44:09happens sometimes. Where people just
1:44:10have like immediate immediate regret,
1:44:13you know, or they married on a whim. I
1:44:15mean, you can there's no Like there's a
1:44:17waiting period to get a firearm, you
1:44:19know, there's a waiting period for
1:44:21almost anything. Marriage, go right now,
1:44:23get married, no problem. You just go You
1:44:25just go to justice of the peace, pay $40
1:44:27license fee, and you're married. That's
1:44:29it. Go to Vegas, you can get a guy named
1:44:31guy dressed like Elvis will marry you
1:44:33for 50 bucks.
1:44:34You said there's two main reasons why
1:44:36people get divorced. Infidelity, which
1:44:38we've talked about, and the other one we
1:44:39haven't talked about, which is money. I
1:44:41found this very interesting
1:44:43because um
1:44:44I wouldn't imagine that money issues,
1:44:46and it's not the money issues we think
1:44:47about. It's not someone going broke.
1:44:50Yeah, it's not that. In your book, you
1:44:51talk about it being transparency.
1:44:54Yeah. So so I mean, money is power,
1:44:57right? Money has a lot to do with power.
1:45:00And
1:45:03I I think there's a lot, you know,
1:45:04there's a it's a misattributed to Oscar
1:45:06Wilde, but it's not something he would
1:45:07have said. There's the saying that that
1:45:09everything in the world is about sex
1:45:10except sex, which is about power.
1:45:12Mhm.
1:45:13And I think money is about power. Money
1:45:16is about control.
1:45:18Money is about opportunity, security.
1:45:20It's about a whole bunch of things, but
1:45:21it's not really about money. Like
1:45:22money's just a a a currency, right? That
1:45:25we trade in.
1:45:26So, I think money has a whole bunch of
1:45:29complicated stuff tied up in it. It's
1:45:32why we can't in polite conversation like
1:45:33talk about what did you pay for that?
1:45:36How much do you make? You know, it's
1:45:37it's considered sort of indelicate to do
1:45:39that.
1:45:40Because we've loaded it up with all
1:45:42kinds of emotional things about worth
1:45:44and relative worth and so, you know, it
1:45:47it's not uncommon
1:45:49that people are dishonest with
1:45:51themselves and with each other about
1:45:53money.
1:45:54It's also not uncommon in a relationship
1:45:57that one of two dynamics emerges.
1:46:00Either
1:46:02one person has a tremendous amount of
1:46:04economic
1:46:05disparity like leverage
1:46:08or they have economic
1:46:09power
1:46:10that they can or or can't leverage
1:46:14because of marriage.
1:46:16Or both people have somewhat equal
1:46:17bargaining positions and then something
1:46:20changes. So, like I see a tremendous
1:46:22number of divorces
1:46:24when husband and wife are both working
1:46:26and husband loses job.
1:46:29Big big precipitant for divorce because
1:46:32men it sends them spiraling into a
1:46:34depression that they've lost this job,
1:46:37that much of how they define themselves
1:46:40in sort of the traditional masculine
1:46:41gender role is that of a provider and a
1:46:43protector and now I've failed at that
1:46:45through no fault of my own. They laid
1:46:46off the entire northeast region. It's
1:46:48not my fault, but I no longer have a job
1:46:50and then I have to go around and try to
1:46:52find one and redefine myself and at the
1:46:54same time
1:46:56my spouse has managed to keep their job.
1:46:58And I've seen a lot of women
1:47:01that when their spouse loses the job and
1:47:04they become the breadwinner
1:47:06they find that very unappealing. That
1:47:08they they
1:47:09that a man as the breadwinner was
1:47:12appealing, the man as economic equal is
1:47:14appealing, the man as I have to take
1:47:17care of him financially and provide for
1:47:19him, very uncomfortable. So, I see when
1:47:22a man loses his job, I I would love if
1:47:25they kept statistics on these kinds of
1:47:27things, but I can tell you in my
1:47:28practice,
1:47:30I've seen plenty of women lose their
1:47:31job, it has no impact on the marriage.
1:47:33Men lose their job in a heterosexual
1:47:36male-female marriage, it it it is it is
1:47:39disastrous consequences a great deal of
1:47:41the time.
1:47:43And I think that has a lot to do again,
1:47:45it's not about money, it's about what
1:47:48the money symbolizes, it's about
1:47:50providing, it's about power, control,
1:47:53respect for the ability to to to go out
1:47:56there and like forge something from the
1:47:58world. We said at the start of this
1:47:59conversation, on the subject of money,
1:48:01sometimes you give legal advice and
1:48:02sometimes you give human advice. As it
1:48:04relates to money, should I be telling my
1:48:06partner how much money I have? Because I
1:48:08imagine there's kind of two different
1:48:09legal There's a legal answer and a human
1:48:10answer. Yeah, I mean, they're entitled
1:48:12to find out. So, like part of Yeah, part
1:48:15of part of Well, in a divorce, you have
1:48:17what's called mandatory discovery, which
1:48:19is that I have a right to review all of
1:48:21your financials in that process. So, a
1:48:23tremendous amount of what I do all day
1:48:25and my team
1:48:27is they we go through people's books.
1:48:29Like we go through the credit card
1:48:30slips, we go through all the economics
1:48:33to find out like where the money is,
1:48:35where it went, you know, and and that's
1:48:37how we find out what everybody spent on
1:48:38their girlfriend or boyfriend and all
1:48:40the Only fans. credit card receipts
1:48:42really. When someone says, "I've got the
1:48:43receipts." Like, "No, I've got the
1:48:45receipts." Because I can I can subpoena
1:48:47them, meaning I can get them directly
1:48:48from the credit card company. I can get
1:48:50them directly from your employer. All
1:48:52your information about what you actually
1:48:54were given. And it's very hard to move
1:48:56money around without leaving a trace
1:48:57these days. Like Well, a lot of people
1:48:59then must be trying to hide money cuz I
1:49:00think I've I've heard of cases where
1:49:02There was one particular case of a
1:49:03footballer who apparently put everything
1:49:05in his mother's name. Did you see that
1:49:07meme?
1:49:07Yes, and the problem with that
1:49:10is it's a great story, makes for a great
1:49:12story.
1:49:14But
1:49:15there are in most jurisdictions
1:49:17protections against that because it's
1:49:19what's called a a transfer in
1:49:20contemplation of divorce. So, it's
1:49:22essentially a form it's like a
1:49:24fraudulent conveyance. It's it's
1:49:26designed to thwart someone's otherwise
1:49:29appropriate legal remedy. So, if I know
1:49:33I'm being sued
1:49:35and that this person has a valid claim.
1:49:37So, I sell my Lamborghini for $5 to my
1:49:40brother,
1:49:41the court can void that transaction.
1:49:44But, what if I before that, before there
1:49:47was any, you know, suspicion of divorce
1:49:49or any issues, I put everything in my my
1:49:51brother's or my mom's name?
1:49:52You can do that. You're allowed to do
1:49:53that. As long as it was not Yeah, I
1:49:55actually have seen that many times. I
1:49:57I've seen
1:49:58Well, I represent a lot of people in
1:50:00finance and people in finance have a way
1:50:02of seeing money very differently.
1:50:05And I've seen people who over a 20-year
1:50:08period like did things to take things
1:50:10out of the marital estate
1:50:13so that they were beyond the reach of
1:50:15the court. Must be quite surprising when
1:50:17you're the other partner and you assume
1:50:18that your partner's super rich. You go
1:50:20for the divorce and you find out that
1:50:21they they have nothing. It's more common
1:50:24that people don't realize the debt
1:50:26structure that they're living under
1:50:28because a lot of people live under a
1:50:29tremendous debt structure. This happens
1:50:31in celebrity divorces a lot because a
1:50:33lot of it is the appearance of wealth,
1:50:34but it's not actual wealth.
1:50:36Mhm. And so, you know, they're they're
1:50:39highly leveraged. And so,
1:50:41that mean for the average person? That
1:50:43doesn't know what leverage
1:50:44card debt primarily. Credit card debt is
1:50:46a big thing or the cars that you don't
1:50:48own the cars, you lease the cars. So,
1:50:50they're actually owned by the bank. Even
1:50:51your home, if your home, you know,
1:50:5370-80% of the equity in your home is the
1:50:56bank's mortgage, then you don't really
1:50:58have much. You don't own your home, the
1:51:00bank owns your home. I think this is
1:51:01something people misunderstand is that
1:51:04you get 50% of your partner's assets and
1:51:07you get 50% of their debts.
1:51:08Of course. Well, you get your you get
1:51:10the assets net of liabilities. Yeah. And
1:51:13most people like their net worth is what
1:51:16do you own net of liabilities. So, there
1:51:20are a lot of people making a very, very
1:51:22good living, but they don't really have
1:51:23a lot of assets because what they've
1:51:25done is they've leveraged in a
1:51:27tremendous way. They have they have
1:51:28mortgages and and they have debts
1:51:30accumulating. They have leased
1:51:31automobiles. They have, you know,
1:51:33jewelry that they took a personal loan
1:51:35to guarantee where that they purchased
1:51:38jewelry knowing that it will immediately
1:51:40depreciate in value. You know, that the
1:51:42resale on it is much, much lower than
1:51:44the value that they just paid for it.
1:51:46So, it's a it's a it's an illusion in
1:51:48many ways. What about the opposite of
1:51:50that where
1:51:51someone was in a relationship and their
1:51:53partner thought they were like
1:51:56broke or didn't have much money and it
1:51:58turns out they're selling a fortune.
1:52:00Yeah, what's actually funnier is when
1:52:02somebody
1:52:03when someone really through no fault of
1:52:05even their own comes into some massive
1:52:08amount of money. Uh
1:52:10Like I've had people I actually had a
1:52:11client who won the lottery.
1:52:13And so, he went from like nothing. He
1:52:17had like a minimum wage kind of a job
1:52:19and they lived a very modest life.
1:52:22And they were unhappily married, but
1:52:25they were like, well, you know, can't
1:52:26really afford to live as a couple. We
1:52:28certainly can't afford to live apart.
1:52:29Like it's bad enough we can't pay with
1:52:31our electric bill to have two electric
1:52:32bills. We'd have a hell of a time. And
1:52:34he won the lottery. He used to play the
1:52:35Powerball and he won like, you know, it
1:52:37was some insane amount. It was like I
1:52:39don't know, 50 million dollars. So, then
1:52:41after taxes, it's like a 50% tax, it was
1:52:44like 25 million dollars. And he was
1:52:46beyond thrilled until he got told,
1:52:48"Yeah, she gets half."
1:52:50She gets exactly half. And he was like,
1:52:52"Wait, why? I bought the ticket." I'm
1:52:54like, "You are one person in the eyes of
1:52:55the law. If she won the lottery, you'd
1:52:57get half of it. You won the lottery, she
1:52:59gets half of it. That's how it works."
1:53:01Did they stay together?
1:53:02No, of course not. She was like I would
1:53:03they're miserable with each other. I
1:53:05mean, at that point he was suddenly very
1:53:07motivated that maybe we should stay
1:53:08together. But she was like, I get Wait a
1:53:10minute. I get I get, you know, half of
1:53:1225 million and I don't have to deal with
1:53:14you anymore? See you. And that was it.
1:53:17That was it. That's why he was in my
1:53:18office. She had served him with divorce
1:53:19papers. What about
1:53:22LGBT couples?
1:53:24Yeah. Does everything we've said apply
1:53:26in equal measure? Do they Do they get
1:53:28divorced in the same Do they have the
1:53:30same issues with talking about sex? Do
1:53:31they
1:53:32Yeah. I You know,
1:53:33I don't I I don't think I think a lot of
1:53:37the same things are true. Meaning
1:53:39impermanence, soulmates, all of those
1:53:42kinds of issues.
1:53:44But I think because
1:53:47gay and lesbian couples were forced to
1:53:50the outskirts
1:53:51of the culture, they were the outsider
1:53:54for so long, so much of my life even as
1:53:57a 51-year-old man, so much of my life I
1:54:00saw my gay and lesbian friends
1:54:03ostracized, marginalized, and put on the
1:54:05periphery.
1:54:07That when you are put on the periphery,
1:54:10there is, as awful as that is, it is
1:54:12unfair as that is, an injustice that is,
1:54:15and how much it should rightly offend
1:54:16our sensibility to see people
1:54:18marginalized and ostracized,
1:54:21it creates a certain freedom
1:54:23where it's like, okay, then we we don't
1:54:25have to follow those rules. We can make
1:54:27our own rules.
1:54:28Invention. Yeah, we can just we can do
1:54:30it how we want to do it. Cuz you know
1:54:32what? They think we stink. They think
1:54:34we're the worst. They think we're just,
1:54:36you know, okay, so then we can we can do
1:54:38it how we want to do it. Cuz no matter
1:54:40what, they're not going to accept us. So
1:54:42we might as well do it the way that
1:54:43makes sense for us instead of, you know,
1:54:44tradition is peer pressure from dead
1:54:47people.
1:54:48So, if you're someone who's like, my
1:54:50parents have rejected me,
1:54:52Sorry, tradition is is peer pressure
1:54:54exerted by dead people.
1:54:56I mean, it's really what it is. I'm not
1:54:57saying traditions aren't valuable. But
1:54:59at their core, tradition is peer
1:55:01pressure from dead people. Like your
1:55:03grandma did it this way, so you should
1:55:04do it this way. Like okay, your grandma
1:55:06lived in a whole different time. Your
1:55:08grandma did not have the entire totality
1:55:10of human wisdom in her hand that she
1:55:14could press a few buttons on. So to say,
1:55:18"Oh yeah, like the same rules, the same
1:55:20institutions, the same ways of being,
1:55:22they should be exactly the same." That's
1:55:24insane. We didn't make rules for
1:55:27non-heterosexual relationships, so they
1:55:28they're getting to make their own rules
1:55:31and it turns out And they did. And they
1:55:32did. Like I have a lot of gay male
1:55:34friends. I live in Chelsea, which is a
1:55:36section of New York City that for many
1:55:37years was a primarily gay male section
1:55:40to live in. And so I happen to have a
1:55:42lot of gay male friends. And it's very
1:55:45funny to me because when I would talk to
1:55:47them even before marriage equality and
1:55:49before the sort of widespread acceptance
1:55:52of gay and lesbian families um and gay
1:55:55and lesbian lives and relationships as
1:55:57being valid. Like it wasn't that long
1:55:59ago that Will & Grace, like Will
1:56:01couldn't kiss his boyfriend on TV. This
1:56:04was like the '90s that that was going
1:56:06on. So this isn't that long ago.
1:56:09Yeah.
1:56:09I have suits older than that. Like this
1:56:11is a thing.
1:56:13So what you know, they they used to my
1:56:15gay male friends used to have these very
1:56:18kind of non-conventional permutations of
1:56:20relationships. They were like, "Yeah,
1:56:21you know, we we can kiss other people,
1:56:23but like we can't have sex with other
1:56:25people or we can do oral sex with other
1:56:28people, we can't do but we have to let
1:56:29them know that we're doing." Like it
1:56:31because they were like, "Hey, we're on
1:56:32the outskirts. We get to kind of make up
1:56:33our own rules." And there's something
1:56:36very and what's funny to me about that
1:56:39is when marriage equality was coming
1:56:41about and I I've been a consulting
1:56:43attorney for for something called Lambda
1:56:45Legal, which is a a
1:56:47gay and lesbian legal defense, which you
1:56:50know, 20 years ago it meant like the
1:56:52right to exist. Like the right to like
1:56:55not be fired from your job because
1:56:58you're gay. Like that seemed to me like
1:57:00basic human rights. You know, the idea
1:57:04now like we've gone quite far in terms
1:57:06of now there's some controversies that I
1:57:08kind of go, okay, wait, I'm not quite
1:57:10sure. Even as someone who's identified
1:57:11as a progressive liberal for quite some
1:57:13of my life, I don't know that I can go
1:57:15this bridge too far.
1:57:17But but the basic fundamental right,
1:57:20like the right to marry, I always felt,
1:57:22you know what?
1:57:23If you want to be able to participate in
1:57:25this unbelievably
1:57:28failing technology, you have every right
1:57:30in the world. Like if you hate gay
1:57:32people,
1:57:33let them marry. Why should they be
1:57:35having all the fun? Like let them marry.
1:57:38And I remember sort of thinking that
1:57:39jokingly. And when marriage equality
1:57:41finally happened in the United States, I
1:57:44went to a good friend of mine who will
1:57:46remain nameless and I said to him, he'd
1:57:48been in a long-term relationship, maybe
1:57:49like 2 years.
1:57:51And I said, so man, are you psyched? You
1:57:52like, you know, you get married? He
1:57:53goes, no, I'm not psyched. Why would I
1:57:56be excited about this?
1:57:57And I said, what do you mean? Like you
1:57:59can get married now. He goes, yeah. Like
1:58:01I never had to deal with that. I never
1:58:03had to have the conversation.
1:58:06It never had to be like, you know,
1:58:08where's this going? You know, are we
1:58:10going to have He's like, I I I if
1:58:11anything I could go like, oh, I would
1:58:13marry you but oh, the government, they
1:58:15won't let me. Oh, I wish I wish we could
1:58:18but the government, it's out of my
1:58:20hands. He's like, now
1:58:22now I have to have this conversation.
1:58:24Now I have to like, well, where is this
1:58:25going? And are we getting married and
1:58:27what do you think? And if we should we
1:58:28move in and should we have even kids?
1:58:30Should we have kids? Like it used to be
1:58:31we were barred from having kids or
1:58:33adopting kids. Now we can adopt kids,
1:58:36it's no problem. He's like, great, now I
1:58:37got to have that conversation. So again,
1:58:40I'm not suggesting
1:58:42that that we shouldn't have marriage
1:58:44equality, we shouldn't have the freedom
1:58:46to adopt and to have children. But I I
1:58:48think it's a Faustian bargain for
1:58:50everybody. And and so, my experience of
1:58:54of gay and lesbian couples currently,
1:58:57cuz I'm currently doing a number of
1:58:59divorces for lesbian couples and gay
1:59:00couples,
1:59:02I think that, you know,
1:59:04the honeymoon period isn't quite over
1:59:06yet.
1:59:07Like marriage equality's only been the
1:59:09law of the land for like, you know, 10
1:59:11years, something like that. So, give it
1:59:13some time. We'll see. Maybe they're
1:59:14better at it. Maybe they'll be worse at
1:59:16it. Maybe they'll be just as equally
1:59:17awful at it as we are. What about open
1:59:20relationships? Do they work
1:59:23more? You know, I'm I'm not qualified to
1:59:26answer that question for the following
1:59:27reason.
1:59:29I meet a lot of people who have tried
1:59:32various
1:59:34types of ethical non-monogamy,
1:59:36polyamory,
1:59:38but they all have in common that they're
1:59:39in my office. Yeah, of course. So, I see
1:59:42all the ones that didn't work. Yeah. So,
1:59:45me saying, well, I've met a lot of
1:59:48couples where they tried the polyamory
1:59:50thing or they tried ethical non-monogamy
1:59:52and it didn't work and it led to
1:59:53divorce, is like an oncologist saying
1:59:56like, "Dude, everybody's got cancer. I
1:59:58met like 10 people today who have
2:00:00cancer." Right, you're an oncologist.
2:00:01Like, of course you meet a lot of people
2:00:02that have cancer. Like, a guy who's a
2:00:04cab driver doesn't meet that many people
2:00:06who have cancer. Like, he might meet one
2:00:07or two, but he's not going to meet all
2:00:09of them. But, you work in cancer, so
2:00:11you're going to meet people. Like, I
2:00:12happen to meet people getting divorced.
2:00:14So, all of the I've met a lot of people
2:00:18that gave that a shot and it did not
2:00:20work. Now, again, was that the like in
2:00:22case of emergency break glass, like
2:00:24let's just try this? Have you ever seen
2:00:26it work?
2:00:28I've never in any of my
2:00:30friendships, in any of my personal
2:00:32relationships, I've never seen
2:00:34non-monogamy
2:00:37successful, but
2:00:39I don't think we're quite at a place as
2:00:42a culture
2:00:44where we're really being honest about
2:00:47monogamy. Like Esther Perel, some of her
2:00:50work
2:00:51I think is brilliant about monogamy,
2:00:54infidelity, because I I don't think it's
2:00:57quite
2:00:59I think there are a lot of couples where
2:01:01there is non-monogamy happening,
2:01:05but there's sort of a don't ask, don't
2:01:07tell policy.
2:01:08And there's a sense of, you know, if
2:01:10this is what you need to do
2:01:13to sort of stay happily committed. Cuz
2:01:16if we're honest, a a marriage
2:01:19is a whole bunch of different
2:01:21relationships in one relationship. It's
2:01:23your roommate, it's your co-parent, it's
2:01:26your travel companion, it's your family
2:01:29companion, meaning like they have to
2:01:31deal with your mother-in-law and your
2:01:32father-in-law, too. And like it's a
2:01:35whole bunch of relationships.
2:01:37And
2:01:38it may be that men and women,
2:01:41or a particular man and a particular
2:01:43woman
2:01:44in a relationship, have a different
2:01:47sense of how important sex is.
2:01:49And, you know, it's okay
2:01:52to delegate.
2:01:53It's okay to say, you know, "Listen, I
2:01:56don't really like football. So, go watch
2:01:59football with your friends." Do you see
2:02:01that a lot, where the the partner or the
2:02:03the other partner that you're not
2:02:04dealing with has accepted
2:02:06Yes.
2:02:07the other partner cheating? Or well, not
2:02:09cheating, but they've allowed them to
2:02:10just quietly go and
2:02:11had a lot of people who come in and say
2:02:14to me, "He had a bunch of affairs over
2:02:16the years, and I just let it go." Like
2:02:18or she had a bunch of affairs over the
2:02:20years, and it wasn't we didn't make an
2:02:22issue of it. Yeah, really? And see, just
2:02:24the fact that you, and it's
2:02:26understandable, I'm not criticizing you,
2:02:27but the fact that you go, "Really?"
2:02:29is
2:02:31Okay, why would that be that shocking?
2:02:33Like people cheat all the time, people
2:02:35step outside of their relationship all
2:02:36the time, people like diversity of
2:02:38sexual partners. Okay, so here's the
2:02:40question then. Have you ever seen an
2:02:42affair in the presence
2:02:45of someone being in love?
2:02:47I don't know that I'd be qualified to
2:02:49say whether someone was in love or not.
2:02:51Here's what I will say, because love is
2:02:53an emotion and love is a verb. Do you
2:02:55know what I'm saying? I've seen I've
2:02:56certainly seen people that were having
2:02:59affairs
2:03:00and in every aspect of their outward
2:03:03life appear to be deeply committed to
2:03:05their marriage.
2:03:06Okay, so they were Okay. They were an
2:03:08economic provider, they were a diligent
2:03:10parent, they were
2:03:12attentive to the emotional state of
2:03:13their partner, they still had an active
2:03:15sexual relationship with their partner,
2:03:17but it wasn't a
2:03:19let's say a terribly prolific one
2:03:20perhaps.
2:03:22Um So you can cheat and be in love?
2:03:24Sure. I mean, listen, just the term
2:03:26cheat, you know, like like Okay, well,
2:03:28then a cheat meal. Like you can be on a
2:03:30healthy diet and enjoy a cheat meal. You
2:03:32know, and and it There's something great
2:03:34about it cuz it's a cheat meal. It's
2:03:36like a little thing you do to treat
2:03:37yourself and then you go back to eating
2:03:39healthy and regular, right? Cuz Look at
2:03:42there's something about the human desire
2:03:44for variety. There's something about
2:03:46passion. I mean, you know, I always say
2:03:48this. I'm not a religious person, but
2:03:50like we're all familiar with the 10
2:03:52Commandments, you know? And and
2:03:54theoretically, if that story is true,
2:03:56which again, it's not provable or
2:03:58disprovable, but God
2:04:01handed down 10 rules. Like that's a
2:04:03talked to humanity and said, "Here's 10
2:04:06rules.
2:04:07Don't kill." Good one.
2:04:10Honor the Sabbath. Good one, okay?
2:04:14Don't cheat on your spouse.
2:04:17Don't covet your neighbor's wife. It got
2:04:20two. It got two rules. Like he didn't
2:04:23say thou shalt not kill. Like seriously,
2:04:25don't kill. That's No, but but don't
2:04:28sleep with other people got two out of
2:04:3110 rules from God, theoretically. Like
2:04:35that's amazing. That should show you how
2:04:38long this has been a thing. How human of
2:04:41a problem or issue or compulsion this
2:04:45is. It's the most human thing. This
2:04:47desire like yeah, we want to you know,
2:04:49Freud civilization and its discontents.
2:04:52You know, all of these all of these
2:04:54brilliant minds from all over the world
2:04:57over the whole span of time have
2:05:00struggled with monogamy. Have struggled
2:05:03with sex. Have struggled with the desire
2:05:05for sex. Wars are fought over sex.
2:05:08People rise and empires rise and fall.
2:05:11People rise and fall. I I I used to say
2:05:13that like I think 90% of what most of
2:05:16the men I do they do to get laid.
2:05:20They do. They Why work hard? So I can
2:05:22make money. Why? So I can get a nice
2:05:23car. Why? So I can attract beautiful
2:05:24women.
2:05:26Like look at look at the red pill space,
2:05:28the manosphere, all that stuff.
2:05:29Everything is about making yourself
2:05:31appealing to women or making yourself
2:05:33appealing to potential sexual partners,
2:05:35whether it's just one or a whole
2:05:36diversity of them. Okay, that's a
2:05:38different thing. But it's about that.
2:05:40It's about that.
2:05:44So should we get married?
2:05:47Should we get married?
2:05:49I mean
2:05:51from a job security place I hope people
2:05:52continue to get married because if they
2:05:54don't I'll be out of a job.
2:05:55But in seriousness, I I don't think
2:06:00I think we will continue to get married.
2:06:02Should we?
2:06:05I don't think we should say all of us
2:06:06should. I think we should ask the
2:06:08question.
2:06:09I think we shouldn't assume we should
2:06:12get married. That's what I think. I
2:06:13think that we should ask the question,
2:06:16what is the problem to which marriage is
2:06:17a solution? And do I have that problem?
2:06:21And will it solve that problem? Because
2:06:24the fact that it's an odd question
2:06:28to say when someone says, I want to get
2:06:32married.
2:06:33that it would be odd for me to go,
2:06:35"Why?"
2:06:37Yeah. Why is that weird? Like, if you
2:06:39said, "I want to have a podcast."
2:06:43"Why?"
2:06:44It's perfectly reasonable question. "I
2:06:46want to go to Florida."
2:06:48"Why?"
2:06:49"I like the weather. I have a friend
2:06:51there." Whatever. "I want to get
2:06:52married." "Why?"
2:06:54What do people respond when when you
2:06:56typically ask that question? What's the
2:06:57most frequent response to
2:07:00the reason for the invention of the
2:07:01technology of marriage? Cuz I I posted
2:07:03many years ago that I I was suspicious
2:07:05about marriage, and I remember all the
2:07:07comments that I got, and different
2:07:09people arguing different things. Well,
2:07:10it's it holds them it holds the
2:07:12It's super controversial. People get a
2:07:13very attached to it. I remember One of
2:07:15them I remember was a case that it's the
2:07:18best environment to raise kids in when
2:07:20the parents are in that kind of bond. I
2:07:21heard another one which means that you
2:07:23stay and you solve the problems instead
2:07:24of running away, so marriage is really
2:07:26good for that regard. But you know the
2:07:28reasons why people say marriage makes
2:07:30sense. What are those key reasons why? I
2:07:33think that there's religious reasons.
2:07:34That's a big one I get all the time.
2:07:36Like, like in the comments there will be
2:07:38like a billion people that go, "Marriage
2:07:40is a covenant between God and as if like
2:07:43I hadn't heard of this." You know, as if
2:07:45I didn't go to Catholic school my entire
2:07:47life. Like, yes, I get it. I get it.
2:07:50That's the belief you have, and that's
2:07:52okay. Like, my beliefs don't require
2:07:54that you believe them. Yours may
2:07:57require that I believe them, and that's
2:07:58okay. Like, we're just going to agree to
2:08:00disagree if your fundamental thing is
2:08:02that God spoke to you and told you a
2:08:05thing, whether it was in written form or
2:08:07verbally. Like, I can't argue with that.
2:08:10You sound like you're a big fan of love
2:08:12and not a big fan of marriage.
2:08:14I'm a fan of marriage to the extent that
2:08:16it facilitates love, but I just don't
2:08:18see a nexus between those two things. I
2:08:20don't think these two two things have
2:08:21that much to do with each other. And I
2:08:23think to the extent that they have
2:08:24something to do with each other, they
2:08:26probably could have existed without the
2:08:27marriage. Like I think I think marriage
2:08:29is a symbol
2:08:31of something,
2:08:33and I don't think you need the symbol to
2:08:35have the something. It's confusing a
2:08:37finger pointing at the moon with the
2:08:38moon. Like it's it's confusing the the
2:08:42the symbol like marriage is supposed to
2:08:44be, I think, a symbol, and I love it for
2:08:48that. I love the idea of two people
2:08:52who are so excited about how they make
2:08:55each other feel
2:08:56and how the effect they have on each
2:08:59other and the effect that the other has
2:09:00on them,
2:09:02that they want to get up
2:09:04in front of a bunch of people who they
2:09:06know
2:09:07and say,
2:09:08"This is my person.
2:09:10I found them.
2:09:11And I'm I'm going to stick with them
2:09:13through good and through bad, and I'm
2:09:15going to see their blind spots, and I'm
2:09:18going to
2:09:19not be a yes-man. I'm going to tell them
2:09:20when they get it wrong, but with love.
2:09:22And I want them to do the same thing for
2:09:24me. I want them to to cheer for me, and
2:09:26I want them to be on my side, and I want
2:09:28them to disagree with me when I need to
2:09:29be disagreed with, so I don't make
2:09:31really dumb decisions just cuz I got a
2:09:32cheerleader all the time behind me. Like
2:09:34I got a cheerleader cuz I need one. The
2:09:35world sucks, and everybody's always
2:09:36criticizing me, and I criticize myself
2:09:38constantly, but having this person next
2:09:40to me who goes, "Man, you can do this.
2:09:42Come on, get up. You can do it, you
2:09:44know?" Or "I fell down. It's okay,
2:09:45people fall down. You're great. Get up.
2:09:47Come on, you can do it." Or who's going
2:09:49to say to me, "You know, yeah, that's I
2:09:52know you're doing this for this reason,
2:09:53and I get it, but I don't I don't think
2:09:55it's going to make you feel what you
2:09:56think it's going to make you feel, so
2:09:57maybe don't do it." And I'm going to go,
2:09:59"Okay, they wouldn't say that if it
2:10:00wasn't out of love, so I'm going to hear
2:10:01that, and I'm not going to be afraid of
2:10:03it." Like and I want to get up and we're
2:10:04going to say this to a bunch of people,
2:10:06and then we're going to wear rings cuz
2:10:07it'll be a reminder for us and for the
2:10:09world that I got a person. I got a
2:10:12person, and that's my person, you know?
2:10:14Dude, how do you not cheer for that?
2:10:16That's incredible. It's great. But you
2:10:18can have that without the Yeah, of
2:10:20course.
2:10:20Without the contract.
2:10:21want to get the government involved?
2:10:23Like, would you have to get the
2:10:23government involved? Really? Like, you
2:10:25That story I just told
2:10:28That's That's the story. That's the
2:10:30feeling. That's the interpersonal
2:10:32connect When you say to most people
2:10:35they say, "I'm getting married." You go,
2:10:37"Why?"
2:10:38They First of all, they look at you like
2:10:40you have lobsters coming out of your
2:10:41nose. Like, they've never The question
2:10:43never even occurred to them. Why? Well,
2:10:45cuz you get married. That's what you do.
2:10:47That's insane. But, if you say to them,
2:10:49"Why?"
2:10:50They'll usually say something that's a
2:10:53total non-answer. Well, I'm in love.
2:10:56Okay. What What does that mean you have
2:10:57to get married? Well, cuz I want to
2:11:00you know, I want to maintain that
2:11:01connection. Okay, but how How
2:11:03specifically is marriage going to
2:11:06maintain that connection?
2:11:07And again, if it's a public declaration,
2:11:10okay. I think there's value in a public
2:11:12decla- If I want to I don't smoke
2:11:14cigarettes, but if I wanted If I was
2:11:15smoking cigarettes, I want to quit
2:11:17smoking cigarettes, there's value in
2:11:19getting up and saying, "Hey guys, just
2:11:21so y'all know, I'm going to quit
2:11:23smoking. And if you love me, I want you
2:11:25to help hold me accountable. So, if you
2:11:27see me smoking or if I ask you for a
2:11:29cigarette, don't give me one cuz I
2:11:30really do want to quit smoking, you
2:11:32know? There's value in that. There's
2:11:34value in the tribe all going, "All
2:11:35right, man.
2:11:36You know, that's what you want. Let's do
2:11:38it. We're going to We're committed to
2:11:39it."
2:11:39It's the same thing with marriage. If
2:11:41mar- If the purpose of marriage is to
2:11:42say, "Hey guys, it's really hard to be
2:11:44monogamous. I don't know if anyone's
2:11:45noticed.
2:11:46So, and like the world is really
2:11:48antagonistic to marriage. But, like I
2:11:49really want all the great things that
2:11:51come from having a person who sees my
2:11:53blind spots and who's supporting me and
2:11:55I'm supporting them and the symbiosis,
2:11:57the beauty of that relationship and the
2:11:59connection of those two people. So, I
2:12:01want you to hold me accountable. I want
2:12:03you, my friend, that when I you see me
2:12:06looking at the other girl that you go to
2:12:07me, 'Hey, hey, hey, bro.
2:12:09Forget about what you got at home. Come
2:12:10on, man. You got a good You got a good
2:12:11one. What are you doing, you know? Like,
2:12:13I want you to hold me accountable. I
2:12:15want women out there to see that wedding
2:12:17ring and to go, "Yep, not him.
2:12:19Not him. Even if he talks to me, not
2:12:21him. He's married. Let's let's leave
2:12:22that one." Why? Cuz if if it was my one,
2:12:26I wouldn't want him talking to some
2:12:27other girl, so I'm not going to talk to
2:12:29him, you know? Instead, it's not what we
2:12:31do. That is not what we do as a culture.
2:12:34You ever want to get laid, put on a
2:12:35wedding ring and go out. Suddenly,
2:12:37you're safe. Suddenly, you're a guy they
2:12:40can talk to and he's not on the make cuz
2:12:41he's married. He's obviously wearing an
2:12:43outward symbol of his relationship.
2:12:44Again, like this is crazy. It's crazy
2:12:49because we're just not being honest
2:12:51about what this thing really is.
2:12:54Marriage is a legal status. It's a
2:12:57government intervention. It's a it
2:13:00Everything else is just stuff we're
2:13:02putting on top of it and calling it that
2:13:05thing, but you can have all that stuff
2:13:07without having legally the status of
2:13:10marriage.
2:13:11James, we have a closing tradition on
2:13:12this podcast where the last guest leaves
2:13:14a question for the next guest not
2:13:15knowing who they're going to be leaving
2:13:16it for, but I might have told them who
2:13:17they're leaving it for.
2:13:20And the question that's been left for
2:13:21you is a brilliant one because it's very
2:13:23on topic and once in a while this
2:13:24happens.
2:13:27When was the first time you experienced
2:13:30true love?
2:13:34Oh boy, you made me cry again.
2:13:37Um
2:13:40When was the first time I experienced
2:13:42true love?
2:13:44Gosh, that's a great question. And just
2:13:46the fact that
2:13:48just the experience of being asked that
2:13:50question
2:13:51is running my mind
2:13:54through the most lovely slideshow
2:13:56of so many times I felt loved
2:13:59and felt deep love. So,
2:14:02boy, what a lovely thing to ask every
2:14:05morning if I could. Like that's a lovely
2:14:07question because
2:14:09just the fact that there's just the fact
2:14:11that there's a competition going on in
2:14:13my brain right now is the greatest thing
2:14:15in the world cuz all the stuff that's
2:14:17running through my head and it's so
2:14:19diverse.
2:14:20There's me kissing
2:14:22an amazing woman for the first time
2:14:25and feeling that.
2:14:27There is my sons, each of my sons
2:14:31kissing me or hugging me.
2:14:33There is Cava and Buster Pickles and
2:14:37Lady and Maggie, every dog I ever had.
2:14:40And there's an image I can imagine of
2:14:42it.
2:14:43There's my
2:14:45The first thing that popped into my
2:14:46head, which is going to sound crazy,
2:14:49but maybe it's the stage in life that
2:14:50I'm in.
2:14:52When I was a little boy
2:14:54my my father my father was a
2:14:57not a particularly
2:14:59effusively loving guy. He was a Vietnam
2:15:02veteran. He was a bad alcoholic.
2:15:05Um he's been sober now for 8 years. I'm
2:15:07very proud of him.
2:15:08Um
2:15:10and
2:15:11he's in his 80s now.
2:15:13But growing up he was very unemotional
2:15:15to me.
2:15:16And I remember
2:15:18um
2:15:19I had this best friend Tommy and we had
2:15:22pizza one night at my my parents house
2:15:25and um you know, pizza's cut into like
2:15:27eight slices.
2:15:29And Tommy and I were like, you know,
2:15:30growing boys. We wanted to eat, you
2:15:31know, like crazy. We ate really fast,
2:15:33you know, we each ate our three slices
2:15:35and my dad would have two left, you
2:15:37know, for him.
2:15:39And uh we ate so fast that that our six
2:15:42slices were gone and there was just two
2:15:43left. And I I know my dad was like super
2:15:45hungry.
2:15:47But he was like, if you guys want, you
2:15:48can have you know, you can have them.
2:15:51And I remember, you know, we just ate
2:15:52them like you would obliviously like a
2:15:54kid.
2:15:56And a couple of weeks later, I was at my
2:15:58friend's house, same friend. And his
2:16:00they ordered pizza.
2:16:02And there was like, you know, same
2:16:03thing, eight slices. And and his dad ate
2:16:05like four slices.
2:16:08And I remember thinking
2:16:11my dad would never do that.
2:16:14And I remember I felt very loved.
2:16:17Cuz I remember thinking like this is a
2:16:18guy who had never said he loved me.
2:16:20Like ever. It just wasn't his
2:16:22vocabulary. It wasn't who he was.
2:16:25But I just remember thinking like oh, he
2:16:27loves me.
2:16:28Like
2:16:29it it satisfied him more to see me
2:16:34eating that extra piece of pizza
2:16:36than what eating that piece of pizza
2:16:38would have given to him. And I remember
2:16:39thinking like oh, he loves me.
2:16:43So I would say to me
2:16:46that was a very pure and true kind of
2:16:49love.
2:16:50And when I had my sons
2:16:53I remember thinking oh, I get I get
2:16:56that.
2:16:57Like they can have the whole pizza.
2:17:00So to me
2:17:02that's
2:17:03you know, that's true true love.
2:17:06Is when it's
2:17:07it's not even sacrificing to give that
2:17:09the joy of the other person just gives
2:17:11you so much joy and fills you so much
2:17:13that
2:17:15that it's just the greatest thing.
2:17:21James, thank you. Thank you for um all
2:17:23the work you do. You've given me
2:17:26so interesting. You know, I went into
2:17:28this conversation thinking I'd learn
2:17:29about divorce and relationships, but I
2:17:31leave this conversation
2:17:33with a
2:17:34profound appreciation for love. That's
2:17:37great. In a way that I don't think I've
2:17:38ever had before. And I also with that
2:17:41profound appreciation, I think causes
2:17:43you to want to take a certain set of
2:17:44actions. I hope so. The and you I think
2:17:47about the what you said about the
2:17:47impermanence of love. You've made me
2:17:49want to
2:17:50cuddle Pablo cuz I know that I don't
2:17:52have many years left with him. But also
2:17:54there's many people in my life that
2:17:55maybe I do have many years with. I don't
2:17:57know how many years I have with them.
2:17:59You don't. And I have to tell you I I
2:18:00think
2:18:02I'm really grateful to hear you say
2:18:03that.
2:18:04I hope you do that
2:18:05because I really think we are the most
2:18:09we are the most aware of the joy of our
2:18:12good health
2:18:13when we're in the presence of illness.
2:18:16We are most aware
2:18:18of the beauty of life
2:18:20when we're in the presence of death and
2:18:22the impermanence.
2:18:24And we can be the most aware of the
2:18:27power and presence and beauty of
2:18:30romantic love
2:18:32when we remember
2:18:34that that it is impermanent, it is not
2:18:36permanently gifted, it's loaned, and
2:18:39that we're blessed to have it for
2:18:41however long we have it. So, if if
2:18:45that's what anyone walks out of talking
2:18:48to a divorce lawyer thinking about,
2:18:51then
2:18:52then mission accomplished.
2:18:55Thanks for having me, Steve.
2:19:00We released it the first time and it
2:19:01sold out instantly. We released
2:19:03conversation cards again and they sold
2:19:05out instantly for a second time. We've
2:19:07updated the cards, put all the new
2:19:09questions in, and we've introduced a
2:19:11twist. On the back of the conversation
2:19:14cards now, we've got different levels of
2:19:16vulnerability. So, level one, these are
2:19:19more sort of surface level questions.
2:19:21And by the time you get down to level
2:19:22three, the questions become a little bit
2:19:25more challenging, a little bit more
2:19:27vulnerable, and that's really where
2:19:29connection happens. The brand new
2:19:31version two updated conversation cards
2:19:34are out right now at the
2:19:36conversationcards.com.
2:19:55Oh.
2:19:56Oh.
2:19:59Oh.
2:20:02Oh.

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