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The Dark Truth of The Sexual Revolution (Nobody Wins) | Louise Perry, Jordan Peterson and more — Transcript

by Alliance for Responsible Citizenship · 3,992 words · 585 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00so we're well set up for this
0:01conversation so I'm going
0:03to outline a proposition to you and then
0:06we'll we'll start the discussion
0:09so in when when n announced the death of
0:13God in the late 1800s he said we will
0:16have to create our own values we will
0:19have to create our own values and I
0:21suppose one rejoinder to that is out of
0:24what and also what do you mean by we
0:27precisely and so part of what we've
0:30heard in the uh previous discussions in
0:33this session is is a a a hinting toward
0:37something which is that that vision of
0:40the untrammeled isolated atomistic
0:43liberal individual pursuing their own
0:46values is really indistinguishable from
0:49something approximating an immature
0:53immediate gratification hedonistic
0:56satiation model of the self right
0:59because what what seem seems to have
1:00happened is that the values that we
1:02ended up creating were the same values
1:04that drive a 2-year-old and and I mean
1:08that I actually mean that technically is
1:10that two-year-olds pursue their own
1:12hedonistic whims without higher order
1:14integration and the pro and you might
1:16say well what's the problem with that
1:18the problem with that is well
1:20two-year-olds in the absence of a more
1:23sophisticated ethic just
1:26die right it's not a sustainable mode of
1:29being
1:30and so and I think all of the work that
1:32the work that all three of you do
1:34pertains to that topic and Louise maybe
1:37we'll start with you you you've written
1:39against the sexual Revolution now I
1:41presume by that you don't mean against
1:43sex you mean against against what and
1:46for what as an
1:48alternative so I mean I would Define the
1:50sexual revolution in two ways you know
1:52one of it one aspect of it is material
1:54it's the introduction of the pill it's
1:56all the technological changes that we've
1:57seen over the over the course of 20th
1:59and 21st centuries that has transformed
2:01our lives and transformed gender
2:03relations it's also ideological though
2:05and I think this is this is the the meat
2:07of what we're talking about it I think
2:10that the the neatest way of
2:12understanding the ideology of the sexual
2:14Revolution is the rejection of
2:16traditional sexual
2:17Norms the idea that we can just throw
2:19them out the window and have one very
2:22simple rule which is that everyone
2:23should be able to consent and then apart
2:26from that you sort of make it up as you
2:28go along and I think what we discovered
2:31is that that doesn't work that actually
2:34I there was a line actually a reader
2:35sent to me from all places from a um a
2:38book about wine making it would be a
2:41very politically explosive thing to say
2:42in any other context but in a book about
2:44wine making you can say it and the line
2:45was Traditions are experiments that
2:48worked MH and I think what we've found
2:52from having
2:53rejected all of the sexual norms and
2:55laws of past is that they were there for
2:58a reason
3:00and I mean I argued very um uh strongly
3:03in my book and in my work that uh the
3:06winners of the sexual Revolution have
3:08not been women in general maybe some
3:10individuals you know I think
3:14some I think some individual men have
3:17definitely done well at of the sexual
3:18Revolution although not all men you know
3:19it's a complicated story when we're
3:20talking about men and women but um I
3:22think what's clearly true is that the
3:24great Losers of the sexual Revolution
3:26have been
3:28children
3:30so so one of the things one of the
3:32things we
3:34might in an effort to tie these sorts of
3:36things together one of the things we
3:38might point out is that that that offer
3:41of unlimited sexual gratification I
3:43think to some degree you could
3:45understand the desire for that and the
3:46wish for that and the hope that that
3:48might be true as a consequence say of
3:50the introduction of the birth control
3:51pill because it put forward to us the
3:54proposition perhaps that sex sexuality
3:56could be divorced sexual pleasure could
3:58be divorced from from everything except
4:01sexual pleasure but the consequences of
4:03that haven't been what has been intended
4:05intended so you say you're you're
4:07claiming in your response that children
4:09and women in particular have not been
4:11the winners and and so that means
4:13something like the sacrifice of their
4:15medium to long-term well-being for the
4:17short-term gratification you said maybe
4:19of a tiny minority of men yeah what we
4:22know too that the men who engage in what
4:24are called short-term mating strategies
4:27so that would be many women sequential
4:29with no relationship also tend to be
4:32Psychopathic Machiavellian narcissistic
4:34and sadistic that's what the CL I'm
4:36telling you that's what the clinical
4:38literature indicates and so not only are
4:40the winners a very tiny minority of men
4:42let's say but they're exactly the men
4:44that we wouldn't want to have win what
4:46what do you see the price that children
4:47and women have
4:49paid 50% of children in this city will
4:52reach the age of 15 not living with
4:54their biological fathers right so
4:56they've lost their so that means they've
4:58lost the good men so you can say the
4:59good men have been sacrificed to the
5:01predatory psychopath yes I think what
5:03culture does what good what good culture
5:06does is it recognizes the fact that as
5:08as as animals we are quite short-termist
5:11that you know sparkly things dangle
5:14before us are very alluring and that
5:16instinct towards making short-term
5:17decisions is is one that we all fall
5:19into you know not just when we're not
5:21just when we're two right when we're
5:22adults that's all too easy to do what
5:24good culture does is it channels our
5:27instincts in the best possible Direction
5:29and encourages us to make decisions that
5:31are good for us long term and also good
5:32for our descendants long term and I
5:34think that's exactly what we're not
5:36doing right now with our current sex so
5:37there's an implicit definition of the
5:39best there Mary you've written a fair
5:41bit about your dis dissatisfaction with
5:45a kind of mindless conception of
5:46progress we heard progress celebrated as
5:49a concept this morning but you're
5:51concerned about um misapprehended
5:54progress I suppose and also about
5:56technological progress def technology
6:00and pro technology being conflated with
6:02progress that's right um I mean te the
6:05Technologies of the sexual Revolution
6:07are the foundation on which we base the
6:10illusion that we can escape from
6:11traditional sexual Norms because they do
6:13go some considerable way to flattening
6:15the the fundamental differences between
6:17the sexist which are what produced those
6:18Norms I mean if you think that if you
6:20think the what what's now called the
6:22sexual double standard really arose out
6:24of the fundamental asymmetry in who gets
6:27pregnant you know the idea that we women
6:29are punished more heavily for having sex
6:32outside marriage um comes
6:33straightforwardly from the fact that
6:35it's women who get pregnant and and
6:37fatherless babies are everybody's
6:38problem you know they're not just um
6:40they're not just something which can be
6:41pmed off on an individual so there's a
6:43there are real in absent reliable
6:45contraception there are real practical
6:47problems which however unfairly were
6:49managed by these asymmetrical social
6:51norms around who who Who's allowed to do
6:53what and with who um and then they and
6:55then birth control semi Fairly reliable
6:57birth control comes along and suddenly
6:59it seems as though we don't we don't
7:00need those we don't need those
7:02constraints anymore because actually
7:03women can have sex just like men as it
7:05turns out and as Louise has written so
7:07persuasively in in fact it doesn't quite
7:10work out like that and in fact it's
7:12there there are as many negatives as
7:13there are positives to that that
7:16apparent increase in Freedom um but I
7:18think the point I made in feminism
7:19against progress is that these these
7:21supposedly liberatory Technologies the
7:24the sexual Revolution isn't the first
7:25application of them in fact since the
7:27beginning of modernity since the
7:28beginning of the Industrial Revolution
7:30we've been using technology to overcome
7:32the apparent limits of The Human
7:34Condition we've been using those to
7:35expand how quickly we can travel how
7:37fast you know what how much energy we
7:39can put through how comfortably we can
7:40live you know a billion and one
7:41different ways that we've changed our
7:43our state our condition through through
7:45the use of Technologies and seem to
7:47escape what were previously understood
7:49as given limits of our human State um
7:51the the sexual Revolution is distinctive
7:53because that was the point at which we
7:54turned those Technologies inward to the
7:57human body you know in that sense I see
7:59the sexual Revolution more accurately as
8:01the transhumanist revolution that was
8:02the the 19 we we're 50 years into the
8:04transhumanist Revolution and we've been
8:07we've been living in that world for all
8:08of that time to me you know if if you
8:10look at how how it's going I have some
8:12questions about how well it's how well
8:14it's contributing to human flourishing
8:15at this point and I feel on you know I
8:18heard some very enthusiastic words about
8:20progress this morning and I would I
8:22would challenge everybody here to think
8:24to try and think as concretely as
8:26possible about what we what we really
8:28mean when we mean when we say progress
8:30and what we really mean do we just mean
8:32more more Freedom underwritten by
8:34technology because I would put it to you
8:36based on the evidence from the sexual 50
8:38years of transhumanist Revolution that
8:41it comes with as many downsides as costs
8:43and I think the challenge we face now is
8:46to try and try and grapple with our
8:48Technologies and the and the apparent
8:50freedoms they give us such as to be able
8:52to reorder those Technologies to human
8:54flourishing rather than to Bear
8:56individual
8:57liberty so
9:02maybe I'll get you and Louise to comment
9:04to comment on this so so you made a case
9:06and I think it's a case that everyone
9:08can appreciate is that since the radical
9:12transformations of the technological
9:14Revolution we have been freed from what
9:17appear to be some of the more onerous
9:19constraints that were placed upon us by
9:21brute necessity but both of you seem to
9:24be making a case that there are limits
9:27to how much we wanted maybe you could
9:29put it this way there are limits to how
9:30much we actually want to transcend our
9:32limits because some of the things that
9:34we might perceive as limits so those
9:36might be limits on unbridled sexual
9:38Freedom aren't limits they turn out to
9:40be actually uh features that we want to
9:43keep and so how do you we'll start with
9:45you how do you how is it that you've
9:48been able to discriminate between those
9:50aspects of the technological Revolution
9:52that might have been beneficial to
9:53people and those elements where you know
9:56we're pushing against limits we actually
9:58don't want to trans send know so so I
10:01guess that's it's a Live question for me
10:03all the time honestly Jordan and I would
10:04certainly not be confident in saying I
10:06always get it right I mean I'm far too
10:08addicted to Twitter for example you know
10:10far you know I'm fully I'm a fully paid
10:12up cyborg in that sense um but the I I
10:16mean an example I often give of where I
10:18think where where I see particularly
10:21young women using Technologies in ways
10:23which could potentially be more more
10:25aligned with human nature as as it
10:28really is rather than as we as we want
10:30to imagine it being is for examp in
10:32using using digital technology to
10:35support natural Family Planning and to
10:37me that seems that seems a powerful way
10:39I mean there there are a huge number
10:40there are there are a number there are
10:41platforms and Technologies out there
10:43which enable women to attune to their
10:45natural cycles and and to manage their
10:47fertility um without having to interfere
10:50using chemicals or you know other
10:52artificial means and and there are great
10:54I've spoken to a great many women who
10:55report feeling more in tune with
10:57themselves more more align with their
10:59with their natural cycles and and no
11:01longer affected by the by the the the
11:04the mood altering impacts for example of
11:06oral contraceptives so that's one
11:08example of how how we might approach it
11:10but but really I think the the the
11:12question behind your question is what is
11:13a human yeah you know that's the
11:15question we need to answer if we're
11:16going to if we're going to make any any
11:18sort of attempt at at grappling where we
11:21need to step back from technology and
11:23where we can actually you support our
11:24flourishing with it so Louise it seems I
11:28don't want to misread what what you've
11:30done and so tell me if I am but it seems
11:32to me that maybe in the early 1960s we
11:35flirted with the idea that sex could sex
11:38could be reduced to sexual pleasure and
11:41that in consequence it could be divorced
11:43from from Love and from children let's
11:46say and maybe what you're pointing to is
11:49the fact that that's actually not a
11:51separation first of all if we make that
11:53separation the whole Enterprise comes to
11:55a collapse you know like I think it's
11:5730% of Japanese young people under 30
12:00are now virgins by the way so we' kind
12:02of dispensed with the notion of sex as
12:04such but it may also be that it turns
12:06out that if we start to become conscious
12:08of this that we don't want to divorce
12:10sex from Love and reproduction we want
12:12to optimize their balance you're
12:14pointing to that with this alternate use
12:15of technology so I I maybe you could
12:18make a comment or two about that
12:20proposition I mean I think that one of
12:22the things that we discovered um from
12:25the the rapid changes it technologically
12:27has brought to our lives is we still
12:29basically have Stone Age brains you know
12:31our species spent 95% of its history uh
12:36in Hunter Gathering mode right our first
12:38and most successful adaptation there are
12:40many important ways in which our minds
12:43have not been able to keep Pace with
12:45technology the pill is a great example
12:47of that the pill has has existed in our
12:49in our in our in our lives you know in
12:51terms of a species for all five minutes
12:53is incredibly new thing and the thing
12:55that I continually find from talking to
12:58with women who have tried their darnest
13:01to have sex like men to pretend that
13:03these differences don't exist is that it
13:04makes them utterly miserable mhh 99% of
13:07the time it makes it naturally miserable
13:09I'd say the same thing I mean I always
13:10think of that um something a friend told
13:12me about someone who knows who um
13:16decided with his wife to experiment with
13:18polyamory right having multiple partners
13:20having convinced themselves that all
13:22this monogamy stuff was just
13:23oldfashioned nonsense whatever who cares
13:25and the first time he um his wife had
13:29sex with another man and he knew that
13:31this is what was happening he found
13:32himself vomiting on the floor of his
13:34bathroom because he had tried so hard to
13:37override
13:39his supposedly socialized ideas about
13:43monogamy and so on he tried so hard to
13:45override them and actually in the end he
13:47couldn't at a gut literally at a gut
13:48level he couldn't do that and I think
13:50that that is once you see that in Modern
13:53Life this these these various ways in
13:55which our environments are are Mal
13:57adapted to our instincts
13:59you see it everywhere and the the task
14:02we have now I suppose is trying to I
14:04mean you can't uninvent the pill it's
14:06not going to happen the advice I give to
14:08women is to behave as if the pill
14:10doesn't exist and you will probably make
14:12better sexual decisions if you're having
14:15sex with someone on the condition that
14:17he absolutely does not become the father
14:18of your children that's probably a
14:20really good indication that you
14:21shouldn't be having sex with him you
14:24[Applause]
14:27know so there is scope for us to be
14:31making different decisions within the
14:34very tight constraints in which we find
14:35ourselves and accepting the existence of
14:38technology and also accepting that we
14:39don't actually have to use it but the
14:42trade-offs are painful you know Stephen
14:45um I'm going to ask you two questions
14:49that are united the first one very
14:50difficult I would say is because um a
14:53transhumanist skeptic listening to this
14:55conversation might say to Louise for
14:57example well why don't don't we engineer
14:59ourselves to override the disgust
15:01response that the gentleman who
15:03delivered his wife into the hands of
15:04some reprobate experienced right what
15:07well because maybe we could re-engineer
15:09ourselves so that we would have no guilt
15:11about the pursuit of hedonistic pleasure
15:13and so and then I guess I'd align that
15:15with another question I know that's dear
15:17to your heart which is your the
15:19educational Enterprise that you're
15:21engaged in is designed to inculcate in
15:24its students or to guide them towards
15:26the the as Bishop Baron pointed out the
15:29the um embodiment of a higher order set
15:31of Virtues and so we could subordinate
15:34our biology to our transhumanist
15:36technology and live for Hedon hedonistic
15:39pleasure I don't think you think that's
15:41a good idea why is it not a good idea
15:43and and what would you propose as a
15:46better story let's say well let's just
15:48say as a as as a starting point that uh
15:51human nature is not a construct we are
15:53some would say created others would say
15:55evolved as self-conscious creatures that
15:57means that
15:59that any culture that cannot enable us
16:03to realize ourselves in a way that we're
16:05living lives that we ourselves regard as
16:07worth living has failed from the most
16:09basic standpoint of heav human evolution
16:12and so we're living right now in a
16:14culture clearly that is not facilitating
16:16that realization in a deep sense and if
16:19human meaning were something you could
16:20simply create a construct well you just
16:22you know go home in the weekend and make
16:24a whole bunch of it and you'd have
16:25enough to live on for the rest of your
16:26life that's not how it happens that
16:28happens by locating yourself within some
16:31frame of genuinely Transcendent things
16:33to which you give your life and and
16:35that's that's why fundamentally it's a
16:37mistake to think that freedom and
16:38responsibility are opposed because
16:40there's no substantial account of what
16:41freedom is that isn't realized in the
16:44real world in relation to difficult
16:47things so if you think about anyone that
16:48you've really admired or loved your
16:50mother from his whether it's from a
16:52person in your life who has influenced
16:53you or anyone from history that you
16:55really admire well they've substant
16:58they've made substantial and difficult
17:00commitments and very often those things
17:02were not arbitrary they they were they
17:04were growing in you might say the
17:06determined soil they were already in you
17:08know their whether that's their sex
17:09their time in history their family their
17:12their political cultural moment and and
17:14they they Rose to the occasion of
17:16finding their freedom in that and so you
17:20know a culture is really just the soil
17:21we're growing in that's that's really
17:23cool to us in the Latin so culture is
17:25really just the soil we're growing in
17:26and the question is we've talked a lot
17:27about human beings made in the image of
17:29God well what does it mean to have a
17:31culture that enables young people and
17:34not only the young but young people in
17:35particular to think that is actually
17:38true of them I mean Jonathan height told
17:40us yesterday about the leading
17:41indicators of social media and the ways
17:42in which it just it actually you might
17:45say communicates a profound nihilism to
17:47the young what does it mean to Pro to to
17:50posit to create an alternative to that
17:52to have a culture in which you know
17:55let's just say quickly that you can have
17:56an acorn that falls on bad soil it's
18:00contaminated there's no water there's
18:01there's no exposure to Sun it can't
18:03become what it is and I think the big
18:05question we facing at ARC and in our
18:07culture at at large is precisely how we
18:10can realize the Transcendent dignity and
18:14free nature of the human being and and
18:16certainly at Ralston College what we
18:17find is that you know you don't have to
18:20persuade the young people that they
18:22should be seeking alternatives to to
18:23nihilism they are profoundly committed
18:26to that already they are they they come
18:28to us in in thousands
18:31seeking ways of discovering their true
18:34nature and living it out in a way in the
18:36world that is profoundly meaningful
18:38they're seeking truth beauty goodness
18:40freedom justice Redemption all of these
18:42things and it's as if we're living in a
18:43time in which which you know the grocery
18:46stores had no food and we can talk about
18:48oh the food chain and what happened and
18:49what were the problems and so on we've
18:50just got to go out there and you know
18:52plant some Orchards and some farms and
18:54give give the young the things they need
18:57to nourish their own own Souls such that
18:59they can realize what is in them
19:07already so I just maybe I'll make one
19:10comment on this from a neurological
19:12perspective let's say we talked a little
19:13bit about Child Development today you
19:15know as the as the brain
19:19matures and this is actually what the
19:21higher reaches of the brain are are for
19:24when you're born you're under the
19:26primary influence of your your basic
19:29emotions and your basic motivations and
19:31so you are a programmed hedonistic
19:34organism from day one and what happens
19:37as you mature and the the the the the
19:41more sophisticated brain areas are
19:45trained in in the particulars of the
19:47civilization is that those lower order
19:50hedonic whims don't get inhibited they
19:54get integrated and they get integrated
19:56into a mode of app apprehending the
19:58world and behaving in the world that
20:00enables those underlying impulsive whims
20:03to also get gratification but in a way
20:06that isn't self-destructive and in a way
20:08that can be United with everyone else
20:10you know so there's there's no utility
20:12in pursuing your own subjective
20:14self-gratification if that means that
20:16everyone hates you and won't have
20:17anything to do with you because it won't
20:19even result in the gratification of your
20:21own subjective desire and so one of the
20:23things we we can know I think now I
20:26think the scientific enterpris has moved
20:28to this point is that there is no
20:30difference between the claim that
20:32maturation involves the activation of
20:35the more recently developed neurological
20:37systems and that human beings move
20:40towards lower order values towards
20:41higher order values and that there is a
20:44rank ordering of values from lower to
20:46higher not least physiologically
20:49practically philosophically and
20:52theologically and your the work of both
20:54of you also seems to indicate I would
20:56say that we make a dreadful and culture
20:58undoing mistake if we Elevate the the
21:02the impulsive vices to the highest
21:04possible place and so maybe we'll end
21:09and gratify our hedonic desires at lunch
21:12to the degree that's necessary before we
21:15turn our attention to higher order
21:17things once again thank you very much
21:19[Applause]
21:27everyone

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