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The Dark Side of Nigerian Politics Nobody Talks About — Chude Jideonwo — Transcript

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0:00I disliked Boheri intensely. First two
0:03times he ran for office. I've done
0:04multiple campaigns just as a job. You're
0:06a client. You hire me. This one I
0:09believed it. So even me drank from my
0:12own supply. One of my dearest friend
0:13called me after he had won and said
0:16today I think we created a monster.
0:17Immediately he won. Everything changed.
0:20It shocked some of the most powerful
0:22people in this country. Even they had
0:24forgotten that this is the man that did
0:25a cool in 1984. We forgot
0:27>> Chud Jono as the co-founder of red he
0:30helped build platforms like why Niger
0:33and the future awards Africa giving an
0:35entire generation of young Nigerians a
0:37place to see their ambitions reflected
0:39and through with he created a space
0:42where some of Africa's most recognizable
0:44people could finally tell the stories
0:45behind their public identities you don't
0:47come from money in Lagos what does
0:49ambition force you to become
0:50>> desperate is such a brutal place it
0:54gives you so much hope because you see
0:56so much money and then it crushes you
0:58mercilessly. My dad lost his job and I
1:00was in a private school. I would be
1:01called to front of our assembly
1:02constantly and be flogged for not to pay
1:05school fees. I remember being so
1:06desperate as a young person. I must
1:08succeed. I must survive. I shall not be
1:10poor. It will never happen. I was with
1:12good luck Jonathan in 2011. I was in his
1:15sitting room when he received the call
1:17from the INC chairman that the elections
1:19were going to be postponed. And I went
1:20to the internet and people were saying
1:22Jonathan wants to rig this election. He
1:24has postponed the election to rig it.
1:25There was no grand conspiracy. Most of
1:27the problems in Nigeria are not
1:29brilliant conspiracy, stupidity. The
1:31presidency about 2011 puts me Transcop
1:33Hilton Penthouse. First time in my life.
1:35I looked at it and I wrote down in my
1:37phone, it is impossible to see Nigeria's
1:39problems from the rooftop of the
1:41Transcop Hilton.
1:42>> I want you to do an analysis for us.
1:43You're an expert in this OB.
1:45>> Sounds like danger is coming, but let's
1:47go. So the one thing that PTO's campaign
1:48doesn't have deliberately is claus is
1:51one of the sharpest deepest densest
1:54political talents we've had in two
1:57generations. PB has done more interviews
2:00than all Nigerian presidents in Babanga
2:03combined. When last did you see a PT
2:04billboard? Nobody has ever won anything
2:07close to a tenth of PTB's votes without
2:10considerable outdoor campaigns. as PTO B
2:13is the billboard.
2:14>> Ah,
2:15>> people don't understand when you say
2:17people change when in office, it's the
2:18people that don't change that are the
2:19weirdos. And many politicians in Nigeria
2:22grew through the ranks. They were house
2:23boys. They were protocol. They were
2:26thugs. And so when they get in there,
2:27they know that they can go back to zero.
2:29They are mass.
2:31>> The governors that supported Bhari
2:34believed that Nigeria was about to
2:35change. What was it about Bare that made
2:38so many people willing and want to
2:40project onto him something he himself
2:43was not and did not claim to be?
2:48Quick one before we jump into the
2:50Afropolitan podcast. I have a problem.
2:53So my issue is that 72% of you are not
2:56subscribe to the Afropolitan podcast. So
2:58I need you to click the subscribe button
3:01so you can join the Afropolitan family.
3:03Now we can jump back to it. Shoot. So,
3:07someone is going to click your specific
3:08video. They may be they now tell us
3:10they're working. So, sometimes they're
3:12actually working when they're watching
3:13an episode or they're calming down from
3:16a long day or maybe they're doing a
3:17quick workout.
3:18>> So, the first thing I want you to tell
3:20the Afropolitan community is you have
3:22been in the media industry for over 20
3:25years, right? And so, I want you to talk
3:28about what's something that you
3:30understood about media that most people
3:32missed.
3:33>> Right. That's when I was starting. Yeah.
3:35>> Yes.
3:35>> You know, so first I can pretend that I
3:37don't know this is the first question
3:38you're going to answer. [laughter]
3:39But I'm a fan of the show, SO I CAN
3:41PRETEND.
3:43>> So I was ready.
3:44>> Yeah. You're [laughter] ready. You're
3:45ready for the big question.
3:47>> Um I think it was how and I I I thought
3:50about it cuz I just wrote about it a few
3:51weeks ago. It was how the media
3:55>> colors the way we see everything. So
3:57explain I started my career my first
4:00jobs before I was 19 producer on new
4:02dawn with fum
4:04>> and on the Mondays we used to have the
4:05editorial panel we have the biggest
4:07editors across the country
4:10you know all these people and after they
4:12finish saying all the things they can
4:14say on TV then they will say the truth
4:16[laughter]
4:17>> outside TV and I'll just be a fly on the
4:19wall listening
4:21>> and I remember then the present
4:23president Baratinu was fighting his
4:26deputy
4:29And I knew that when I was reading the
4:31media, I wasn't reading the media for
4:32the truth.
4:34>> I was reading the media for the
4:35narratives.
4:36>> Interesting.
4:37>> I'm a 19 yearear-old. I know that what I
4:39see in the media is not what is really
4:41happening. It's who's winning the PR
4:43war? Who are people sympathizing with?
4:45Who do people believe? Who's going to
4:47survive?
4:48>> Yeah. And so from very young, I was very
4:50young, I just knew that the like
4:53something can happen here and what
4:55people think happens is completely
4:57different
4:58>> because of the filter of the media. And
5:01so on a very visceral level from the
5:04from my teens, I knew how powerful the
5:07media was. When I tell people that the
5:08media can do anything,
5:10>> yeah,
5:10>> I literally mean it.
5:12>> Yeah.
5:13>> You know what I'm curious about is now
5:16let's fast forward to today,
5:17>> right? Do you still see that? Do you
5:20still believe that in Nigeria media and
5:22African media as a whole? Are we telling
5:24the truth now when it comes to media or
5:26we're still shaping the narrative
5:28>> when it comes to politics? Almost
5:30nobody's telling the truth. [laughter]
5:33You know, I just finished watching The
5:34Diplomat season 4 and I'm just thinking
5:36how many good people are telling so many
5:37lies.
5:38>> Yeah.
5:38>> And that's and and that's not
5:40necessarily an immoral thing.
5:42>> Yeah.
5:42>> Unless you are fidious about lies.
5:44>> Yeah. Because
5:46communication to millions of people
5:47doesn't come naturally to us as animals
5:49because we human beings are literally
5:52evolved animals. And so [clears throat]
5:53talking to one million people each with
5:55their biases and their histories is
5:57difficult. It's literally impossible on
6:01that level. [clears throat] So what
6:03you're looking for is not people lying
6:05or not.
6:06>> It's more are they doing their best
6:09>> to be truthful.
6:10>> Yes.
6:11>> Yeah. And that's why across the
6:13continent is a bit crudder. So people
6:15don't even try their best. So in many
6:16African countries, especially in
6:17dictatorships, people just lie. People
6:19just treat citizens as idiots.
6:22>> But in certain countries, what people
6:24are doing, they're trying to balance
6:26>> what will cause the least damage, what
6:29will lead to the best good, what is best
6:31for this audience. If you watch any
6:33politician, if you follow, you can do it
6:35tomorrow. Go on YouTube, follow. Okay,
6:38Ted Cruz is not a good example.
6:39[laughter]
6:40Go on YouTube, follow I don't know,
6:43Talico, James Tarico. Follow YouTube, go
6:45follow Peter, go follow article, follow
6:48anybody
6:48>> and just watch them speak to 20
6:50different audiences over a twoe period.
6:53you will struggle to get structural
6:55consistency,
6:57you know, and so when you are dealing on
7:00that level and you're not lying to
7:01yourself, you say, "Okay, I want to see
7:03the person that is doing their best to
7:05reach for as much structural honesty as
7:07possible, not
7:09who lied [laughter] because you will not
7:12be able to work with anybody."
7:13>> You know, it's funny as you're saying
7:15this. So, um, Telerico Yeah.
7:18>> Texas,
7:18>> right? Yes.
7:19>> So, I've I used to be in a blue state,
7:21California, right? And then I've moved
7:23to Texas.
7:24>> All right,
7:24>> bro. When I tell you the level of I got
7:27a text, I don't know if I told you this,
7:28but I got a text from the rep um the
7:30Republicans who were running against
7:31Tarico. And in the text messages,
7:33they're basically campaigning and
7:35they're like, "Thico supports
7:36transsexuals. Uh he supports them. They
7:39and I'm talking about they were so
7:40explic exploitive in the text. I'm like,
7:43they sent the text." Yeah. You know, in
7:45my text [laughter] messages. So, I'm
7:46like, "Ah, Nigerians think that we're
7:48doing politics. THESE PEOPLE ARE OKAY.
7:50THEY'RE NOT PLAYING at all." And I used
7:52because one of the
7:54>> good guys in the narrative now they're
7:56not playing like let me tell you like I
7:58mean now the level of lies in American
8:00politics is crazy because of you know
8:03>> but
8:04>> when you look at politact
8:06>> which tracks lies
8:07>> over the past 20 years when you actually
8:10look at politact or you look at your
8:11your icons
8:13>> say Barack Obama say Kamala Harris you
8:16be like ah
8:18>> life is [laughter] hard because and I
8:20don't think that I think even sometimes
8:21they deliberately lying.
8:23>> I think sometimes they deliberately
8:24misremembering. I think sometimes they
8:26are struggling. Okay, how do I maintain
8:28the peace? So there are people who
8:31outright lie and that's where Africa is
8:32deeply unlucky.
8:34>> So they are not trying
8:36>> they're just like let us lie and the
8:38worst part are those people that say
8:40every when you hear somebody start with
8:41everybody is lying which is not what I'm
8:43saying.
8:44>> That's the person to run away from
8:46>> because the idea is not to be like
8:47everybody's lying so let's not try our
8:48best. The idea is to say, "I'm going to
8:50do my best,
8:51>> but
8:53strategic communication. If I don't get
8:55it all right, I'll forgive myself and
8:57I'll do better tomorrow."
8:59>> That's where we miss it.
9:00>> You know how every week we sit down with
9:02people who've done it, people who've
9:03built, people who've led movements,
9:05people who've created culture.
9:07>> What if you could do more than just
9:08listen to them? That is why we built
9:10Convoy by Afropolitan. On Convo, you're
9:13able to book one-on-one video calls with
9:15in- demand experts from Africa and the
9:17diaspora. go to convo.vip
9:20to get access to your next mentor
9:22because sometimes one convo can change
9:24your entire path.
9:26>> So, you know, speaking of, you know,
9:28media and narrative, what I'm curious is
9:30when you were building Red Vision with
9:32Tibola, I'm curious what was the
9:34original vision and did you set out to
9:36build eventually a PR company
9:38consultancy or was it just No, not at
9:40all. Okay, tell us tell us.
9:41>> So, the the original idea was content.
9:44>> Okay.
9:44>> Media content. Now the the vision has
9:47remained remarkably consistent over
9:49three two and a half decadesish which
9:52was to build a media company where we've
9:54later crystallized it as the media
9:55company to reach and inspire the largest
9:57number of African youth at any time.
10:00>> Now some parts of that have remained
10:01consistent Africa inspire
10:04>> largest number but we thought we're
10:07going to do it through content.
10:09>> So so the first things we developed were
10:11content. We had a column in um Guardian
10:14newspapers. We had a column in uh um the
10:17comet newspapers. Funny story, the comet
10:20newspapers is a newspaper that became
10:22the nation. So the comet newspapers is
10:24still owing me owing us salaries.
10:26>> Really?
10:26>> And the comet newspapers said so when
10:29but they were changing owners about 3
10:30months after we went. So we went to the
10:32guy and said, "Oh, 3 months payment is
10:34owing." The man knows himself. He said,
10:36"Ah, no, no, it is comments that he's
10:38owing you. This is now donation."
10:40[laughter]
10:42So sad story. And so we're doing that.
10:45We had a TV show with the NTA called
10:47Youth Talk and all of that. So it was
10:49content, but there was no sponsorship. A
10:52problem that has not changed in this in
10:53this in this sector.
10:56>> And so and so we kept talking to brands
10:59and they would say, "Oh, we love what
11:01you're doing and they really love
11:02sometimes like the future awards the
11:04first edition much of the actual cash we
11:06used was brand managers saying my brand
11:09can't sponsor but I really like what you
11:11guys are doing so I'm going to give you
11:13my personal money
11:14>> interesting
11:14>> I'm telling you that's how we knew that
11:16we're on to something and they were not
11:18lying but there was no youth segment at
11:20the time and we were targeting the youth
11:22market so marketing organizations didn't
11:24have youth segment so they didn't really
11:26know where to place us why not become a
11:28music award why not become a fashion
11:29award why and we said no we're youth
11:31culture. Now I'm thinking about it. I'm
11:33thinking this culture is it? [laughter]
11:36But we kept saying that and so we're not
11:38making any money. So as we kept
11:40engaging, we became faves with the brand
11:42managers. And so I think out of pity,
11:45they would say, you know what, do this
11:46thing for us. We're trying to do this
11:48thing in Enugu. Can you guys get us in
11:50the newspapers? Um we're trying to we're
11:53organizing this event. Can you guys get
11:54us the cost of the billboards? Or we're
11:56doing this magazine. Can you guys, you
11:58know, ATC? And that's how we began to
12:00get into communication and consulting.
12:03>> And so the model now became the
12:05consulting was producing the money that
12:09we're using to run the content.
12:10>> Ah okay. Okay. Okay.
12:13>> And at some point we just thought at
12:14some point it clicked like I think we
12:17should stop struggling to build what we
12:19to stop struggling to build what is not
12:21easily being built. And so we just went
12:23all in. I remember in the per just like
12:25you know what and I hated the word at
12:27the time peer. I just we're not a PR
12:29company, you know, we we're building
12:31brands, we are redefining culture, we're
12:33doing all of these things and PR just
12:35seemed like a reductionist view of what
12:38we were doing. But at some point, it
12:40just made business time said, "Look, I
12:41need we need to restructure this
12:43business, accepting that PR is over 80%
12:48of both revenue and profit." And that's
12:50when we focused on PR. M
12:52>> so how you know I discovered red media
12:56and you as well was during the Bhari
12:59administration right I think
13:00>> I'm a political science background
13:02that's my background and so when the
13:05campaigns were happening I just remember
13:06just being like
13:08>> I saw Bhari I think he ran three times
13:10before that right so the first three
13:12times
13:13>> it's almost like a a man that's toasting
13:16a woman and woman is like I'm not
13:17sending you right and she's like I'm
13:20focused on these other people she reject
13:21rejects you the first time. That's what
13:23Nigerians did. You the second time
13:25>> and the third time
13:26>> and the fourth time he pulls up in a
13:28Rolls-Royce. You're like, "Ah,
13:29[laughter]
13:29>> what's going on?"
13:31>> And I remember that time because I was
13:32like, "Ah, this packaging."
13:34>> Yeah.
13:34>> It cannot be the same bag that we saw
13:36three times before. So, something has
13:38entered his environment.
13:40>> Yes.
13:40>> And then it was really wellrun. The
13:42campaign was really wellrun. Right. And
13:44I I I loved how that campaign showed
13:47what was possible in Nigerian politics.
13:49Right. Now I want you to do an analysis
13:51for us because this is you're you're an
13:53expert in this, right? Peter Obi.
13:55>> Yes.
13:58>> Sounds like danger is coming, but let's
13:59go.
13:59>> Pet.
14:00>> Yes.
14:00>> Right.
14:02>> From my perspective does not seem to
14:04have the same sort of campaign.
14:06>> Yes.
14:07>> Management. Perception management.
14:09>> Now obviously he is who he is.
14:11>> But can you if you were in if you were
14:13to consult for Peter would be today
14:15>> this is free master class.
14:17>> What are some of the feedbacks you would
14:18give? Right. So h that's because you
14:21know that I can get into all kinds of
14:22jobs. Of course, but let's do our best.
14:24Let's do strategic communication
14:25hypothetically.
14:26>> Yes. Hypothetically. So
14:27>> Lagos life. [laughter]
14:31>> Imagine your Legos life.
14:32>> I'm just trying to get this through.
14:33[laughter]
14:34>> So the one thing that PW campaign
14:35doesn't have deliberately is gloss.
14:38>> Is what?
14:38>> Gloss. Gloss. Gloss.
14:40>> Gloss.
14:40>> Okay. Explain gloss.
14:41>> Which means that so for in talking about
14:43the Rolls-Royce filter. [laughter]
14:44>> Yes. It doesn't do filter. M
14:46>> and that's because he built his entire
14:48brand luckily for him.
14:49>> Yeah.
14:50>> On not doing filter luckily for him. And
14:52and it's not it's not luckily it's just
14:54strategic for is one of the sharpest
14:58sharpest
14:59>> Mhm.
15:00>> deepest
15:02>> densest political talents we've had in
15:05two generations.
15:07So that everything is authentic but
15:09everything is strategic.
15:11>> Yeah. And so he figured out that we had
15:15political political campaigns are in
15:16cycles. It's just like how you know that
15:17if the Democrats are in office the
15:19midterms are going to go to so it's
15:20cycles. So when when a citizenry has
15:23seen gloss really next thing they really
15:25want is not gloss you know they think
15:27they think they but they responding to
15:29what just passed. So Peter B understood
15:31the moment perfectly and he was also
15:34temperamentally suited for the moment.
15:37So the gloss is not a a bug it's a
15:40feature. the lack of gloss. Now the one
15:42thing that Peter will be that I would
15:44add to the campaign because the campaign
15:46is already running well. There are two
15:47things. One is structural which is he's
15:49already figuring out with his deputy
15:51conquest um and then trying to figure
15:54out by focusing a lot more on the north
15:56in these elections behind the scenes.
15:58But what the one thing that Peter
16:00struggles with I think and I think he
16:01himself would admit this is um
16:07interview discipline.
16:09[snorts]
16:10And that is important because his most
16:13his leader tool his most legal tool is
16:17interviews.
16:18>> Interesting.
16:19>> PTO is in politics almost exactly like
16:23Trump.
16:24>> Yeah.
16:24>> Not in policy. Which means that what
16:27PTOB does is he starts talking and he
16:30doesn't stop.
16:31>> So it's an endless conversation. He's
16:33talking at nursing homes. He's talking
16:35at political rallies. is he understands
16:38that his most important asset is his
16:40voice and him showing up.
16:42>> Yeah.
16:42>> And he gives a lot of that. Peter Obi
16:45does has done more interviews than every
16:49Nigerian president
16:51since Babanga.
16:53>> Wow. Okay.
16:55>> Peter Obi has done more interviews
16:58than all Nigerian presidents in
17:00Babangida combined.
17:01>> That's crazy. [laughter]
17:03>> Someone I love president.
17:07AND I'M SURE IT includes those before,
17:09but I said I did this data. We did this
17:10for a client. So I did it from Babanga
17:13because we're safer. We could kind of
17:14tie Babanga did a lot of a lot more
17:16interviews than normal president.
17:18>> Yeah.
17:18>> And so we kind of look for how many tell
17:19magazine interviews did he do? How many
17:21news watching all of that has done more?
17:24>> Wow.
17:24>> Peter. So I asked people when last did
17:27you see a PB billboard?
17:28>> I haven't seen it.
17:29>> I haven't seen Exactly. Yeah. I I
17:31haven't seen that. Nobody has ever won
17:34anything close to the a tenth of PTO's
17:36votes without considerable outdoor
17:39campaigns.
17:40>> Ah
17:42>> because PTO is the billboard. [laughter]
17:45>> Interesting.
17:45>> He goes he takes so there's a lot of
17:48research about how much free air time
17:50Trump got.
17:51>> Yes. Cuz he was on the podcast
17:52>> because he was on podcast. He was on
17:54radio. He was on TV calling to Fox News.
17:56PB would call him to a show. PB would
17:58do. He says he's going to do Pella. PTO
18:00would do you know that's the same
18:02strategy. So he deliberately realized he
18:05could get a lot of free he studied
18:06Nigerian politics and realized that many
18:08of the conventions that I had been
18:10saying were false for a long time
18:12>> were false and that he could do it a
18:14different way especially in the digital
18:17media space directly to people. So that
18:19is his largest strength but because it
18:21is his largest strength and because he's
18:22a freewheer
18:23>> again like Trump.
18:25>> Yeah. So I always say that if you look
18:27at it politically,
18:29Tinubu is like Hillary Clinton.
18:32>> Every interview is arranged, aligned.
18:34He's an establishment candidate. He went
18:36literally through the ranks like ah
18:38senator first governor's mansion. Obi
18:42went the other way. Just went to the
18:43back door, knocked [laughter]
18:45the door, walked and that's why they
18:47don't like each other.
18:48>> Yeah.
18:49>> I tell people that if you don't notice,
18:50this president has never wished Obi
18:52happy birthday. [laughter]
18:53>> Never.
18:55Never. So people who are establishment
18:58>> people don't usually like people they
18:59see as supper.
19:00>> I built it brick by brick.
19:01>> I built it brick by brick. This is how
19:03it's done.
19:04>> Both have their merit. So so Peter
19:06because he's a freewheeler.
19:07>> Yeah.
19:08>> He doesn't have a lot of interview
19:09discipline.
19:10>> And so anytime his his opponents come
19:13for him if you notice it's the words
19:16that he said.
19:17>> And so yes it's not now they've come for
19:20him for you know he states things the
19:22dodgy really is the words that he says.
19:24Yeah.
19:34>> PR people is that they riding you need
19:37to stop doing interviews and the man is
19:38thinking
19:40>> but that's how I got that's even how why
19:41you are here.
19:42>> No. So you have to how do you get keep
19:45the person's essence?
19:47>> Yeah.
19:47>> But plug the length.
19:49>> Yeah.
19:49>> I think that's the only thing that his
19:50campaign is at this time
19:52>> actually. You know, speaking of this,
19:53because I was thinking about the outdoor
19:55campaign the other day. Um
19:57>> I think I was driving on Felmore Bridge
19:59and I'm like, where are the other
20:01candidates?
20:01>> Yeah. Yeah.
20:02>> Like why don't I see anybody else's like
20:05I think I saw one small poster like on
20:08the side
20:09>> with Peter Obger,
20:11isn't it? Yes. It's a bigger problem. I
20:13think I think I I don't I don't know
20:15this for sure,
20:16>> but just on conversations in the campus,
20:18I think that most people think it's a
20:20waste of time. Most candidates think
20:22running up against ruling party
20:24incumbents in this cycle that's a waste
20:26of time focusing on adverts
20:28>> really.
20:29>> So the thinking again I've not heard
20:31this from the candidates directly and in
20:33politics [clears throat] rumors are the
20:34name of the game but this is like
20:36>> maybe three three degrees of separation
20:39>> that they just feel it's a waste of
20:40time. So it's like first we're not going
20:43to out run the incubent in Lagos and
20:46federal on money. Secondly, we all the
20:50candies apart from PB have almost
20:52universal name recognition.
20:54>> So there's really no way you there's no
20:56marketer. You mention article. People
20:57will be like who is that?
20:59>> So campaign is kind of organically
21:01figuring out that it's not by
21:03outspending on media. It's by how do we
21:06shape the at least on paid media. How do
21:08we shape the end media narrative? That's
21:12the whole conversation about subsidy. M
21:14>> how do we
21:15>> a market woman is not going to vote
21:17because she sees one more picture of
21:19>> the market didn't vote the last time
21:21because she saw any picture of Peter
21:23>> like that's not the field where they
21:25will win the field is word of mouth what
21:28will people be saying if somebody asks
21:30them about the candidates
21:32>> I don't think they're wrong and I can
21:34easily say that because I'm not in I
21:35don't have any billboards so my business
21:38doesn't suffer [laughter] for that I
21:41honestly don't think they're wrong it's
21:43complete media saturation you know so
21:46paid media now there's a reason why the
21:47ruling party is doing it
21:48>> the ruling party is doing it so that if
21:50the ruling party wins you kind of see it
21:52as obvious
21:54>> it's like there's a governorship
21:55candidate I'm not going to mention his
21:56name
21:57>> who is inviting here
21:59>> now we just call him now and say we are
22:00here can you call shop [laughter]
22:04so what he's doing is that he's making
22:05you already imagine him as governor
22:07>> yeah everyone keeps saying incoming
22:09governor in I'm like incoming vote so
22:12when it [laughter] happens it's not
22:13going to sound strange because he's
22:15already keynote speaker at every event
22:18he's already panelist on every panel
22:20he's doing everything from win be I'm
22:22sure he's going to be a moonshot
22:23[laughter]
22:24>> so when it happen so the winning party
22:26has a strategic necessity
22:29>> in continuing to do as if we are running
22:31we are
22:32>> we are fighting for votes
22:34>> because you want to have legitimacy
22:36>> yes
22:37>> so that's why they're doing that so I
22:38honestly that's why I'm one that's why
22:40that's why I'm so good AT MY JOB
22:41[laughter]
22:43WE look at things and say not what is
22:46everybody what's the convention what are
22:48the talking heads saying what really is
22:50making the difference on the ground and
22:53so of course if I was doing the campaign
22:54for a candidate I put in billboards and
22:56all of those things because you'd look
22:57incompetent if you didn't
22:59>> but I don't think there's any
22:59malpractice in these guys not doing that
23:01that's not where they'll win this
23:02campaign if they will win. So, I know
23:04the Afropolitan fam wants to know, okay,
23:07what does Chica and Etch do outside the
23:10couch, right? Sometimes we get to meet
23:12y'all in person, but a lot of y'all have
23:14a lot of questions around what do me do
23:16dayto-day? How do we manage our life?
23:19Some people even comment and say, "Oh, I
23:21didn't know they're married." So, we
23:23have a solution for that. I want y'all
23:25to follow us on Snapchat. And we're
23:26going to put down individually how you
23:29can follow me, Chica, and Etch on
23:31Snapchat. So you get closer to us. You
23:33get to know what we're doing when we
23:35travel. You know, a lot of times we go
23:36to New York and LA to even record these
23:38episodes and really just get a chance to
23:40see behind the scenes. So I want you to
23:42follow us on Snapchat. A lot of times
23:44you guys ask for introductions to
23:46investors. You want to see our investor
23:48deck. You want introductions to other
23:51people. So we have finally created the
23:53room on Patreon. And in this room, it's
23:56a membersonly exclusive place where we
24:00show you the behind the scenes. You get
24:02to connect with other people. We share
24:05our playbooks. We do deep dives into
24:07specific industries. Everything for an
24:10entrepreneur. It is like your total
24:12toolkit in real time.
24:14>> I always like to say this is the room
24:16where the most ambitious people in the
24:18diaspora find each other, right? Like
24:20again, sometimes it feels lonely
24:22building. Sometimes it feels like you're
24:24the only one in your circle who might
24:25understand what you really want to
24:27achieve. In this room, you will not feel
24:29alone. So again, join us on Afropolitan
24:31Patreon, right?
24:32patreon.com/afropolitanodcast.
24:35All right guys, let's pay some bills.
24:38>> I want you to tell people what you're
24:40currently using because you know we
24:41always have to get Naira. So what app do
24:43you like?
24:44>> So now I use Zobo Money. Um Zobo Money
24:47you could get the highest rates pretty
24:49fast, right? People get your money
24:50straight. No voila, no the bank has
24:53failed or bank is waiting. Um, and I
24:56really like it and it's not just because
24:57they're sponsoring the show. I actually
24:59use it, right? So, if you're somebody
25:00who's in the diaspora, you're looking to
25:02send money back home to places like
25:03Nigeria, Cameroon, Ghana, etc., you're
25:07able to use Zobo money to send money
25:09back home. And because they're such
25:11lovely people, they've given us a promo
25:13code with Afropolitan for you to be able
25:15to use to send money back home.
25:17>> Download it on your Apple and Google app
25:19today. Afropolitans let's pay some
25:23bills. So recently I was reading about
25:25the Nigerian stock exchange and I was
25:28pleasantly surprised that it is really
25:30outperforming the market and at first I
25:33was a bit skeptical cuz I was reading in
25:34Nigerian local news and I was like I
25:36don't know if this just is like some
25:38funny promotion. But then I started
25:39reading international news and I was
25:41like wow okay I need to start investing
25:44in Nigerian stock. So tell me more about
25:46like how can I do it cuz I don't even
25:47know where to start. Well, I use HISA.
25:50It's an all investment platform where
25:52you're able to invest in Nigerian stocks
25:56in US stocks as well. And if you
25:58download HISA today, you'll be able to
26:00get access to those stocks.
26:01>> Amazing. And so, can I just download it
26:03on my phone like with Apple Google like
26:05where do I Apple store? It's pretty
26:08seamless, too. And if you use the promo
26:10code afropolitan cuz we have partnered
26:12with HISA, you'll be able to get your
26:14first two trades for free.
26:15>> Okay. So, Afropolitans, you hear that?
26:17because I'm trying to get up my money.
26:19All right, so we're going to download
26:20HISA either on the Apple or the Play
26:22Store and make sure you'll see the link
26:24in the YouTube description.
26:27>> You know, we've been talking about how
26:29quiet things seem to have been and this
26:31is just trying to get your perspective
26:32perspective cuz I know you're not in
26:34politics and you're not um
26:35>> you're not running for office yourself,
26:37but I'm saying
26:38>> for an election that's coming up in
26:39almost like what 3 months,
26:41>> it just feels quiet from the opposition,
26:43right? And you know, some of us on on
26:46the team were talking about how that
26:47seems more like strategy
26:49>> than um just people not doing anything.
26:52Like do you get that same feeling too
26:54where it's like things are just moving
26:55in the background and people are waiting
26:57till what do you call is it DDay or
26:58Normandy where you're like okay you'll
27:00see what we're going to do on this day.
27:02Right. So what do what do you think?
27:03>> I do feel that things are eerily quiet
27:05on a national level. Eerily quiet.
27:07>> Yeah it is. But I was discussing one of
27:09my guys who is actually working on the
27:11campaign and we we we looked at it and
27:14we said and we said to each other that
27:16we say this every year every cycle
27:19>> really.
27:19>> Yes. So if this airy quietness continues
27:24until end of November then I'll be
27:27worried. But what typically happens
27:29>> is that there is so much intense
27:31activity
27:33November to January.
27:36>> Yeah. that we often think it started
27:38much earlier.
27:39>> Okay.
27:39>> So, if you actually go and look at it
27:41now, it's a bit quieter than usual.
27:43>> Yeah, it is more quiet.
27:44>> More quiet, but usually quiet before the
27:46storm kicks off. And that's because
27:47people are, especially the opposition
27:49candidates, they have less money
27:51>> and so they are kind of waiting.
27:53>> They want to compress it
27:54>> and go hard at the end. So, so you're
27:57not wrong that it's a teeny weeny bit
27:59quieter.
28:00>> Yeah.
28:00>> But I I I think that it's not unusual.
28:04But it's again part of it also. So what
28:06these guys are telling me in the
28:07campaigns and you see if I say I say
28:10what they telling me because sometimes
28:11the fact that somebody's in the campaign
28:12doesn't know that they know what they're
28:12doing in the campaign. True.
28:13>> This how campaigns run. [laughter]
28:15>> You have you have so many people running
28:17around saying they this that taking
28:19picture with this one son going to
28:21summit all of that.
28:22>> They don't know what's happening.
28:24[laughter]
28:26>> But the candidates and the political
28:28party have to keep them busy because
28:30they are better in house
28:31>> than outside
28:32>> than outside. you you going to be a
28:33nuisance outside then you have to be
28:35calling people out but
28:37>> the real strategy is often decided by
28:38six people [laughter]
28:40>> and those people may not tell the other
28:42people
28:43>> what's going on because there's no need
28:45>> so but this what these people who are
28:48two degrees separate are saying which
28:50may be true
28:52>> that everybody essentially believes that
28:54you can't outspend
28:56>> the in this particular increment
28:59>> yeah this one is a heavy [laughter] one
29:01heavy
29:02So you and you better wait until closer
29:06>> to the campaign.
29:08>> Then you take all the firepower you have
29:10and you pour it in.
29:11>> Bazooka.
29:12>> Yes. But again, you also have to
29:13remember that we're in Lagos. It's not
29:16the same in Jigawa.
29:18>> There are certain states
29:21parts of Patakot where there's heavy
29:24artillery going on.
29:26>> Do you understand? And for a number of
29:27reasons, the governors need to win their
29:28own election. They need to show their
29:29loyalty to the president. So, so again
29:32don't use Lagos
29:34>> and Abuja. Lagos is much quieter than
29:35usual for these reasons. But in certain
29:38states, if you go to Cano, there is
29:40activity. That's base. So, in certain
29:42states, things are going as usual,
29:45>> but at the center, you're right, a bit
29:47quieter.
29:48>> Yeah. And that's the reason.
29:49>> So, you know, I want to switch gear on
29:51another person, Denote, cuz he's had a
29:54very interesting media run. I I'm
29:56curious what are your thoughts on how
29:58you feel he's been ruling out talking
30:00about this IPO, you know, cuz I feel
30:02like for the first time he's present
30:05like we've always seen him. He's done
30:07interviews, but I I feel like this time
30:08it's been [laughter] a bit more Yeah.
30:10Yeah. It's more deliberate. Yes.
30:12>> He's giving he's giving people like us a
30:14chance [laughter]
30:16>> to
30:19people like you like your wife spreading
30:22well. That video cracked me off so much.
30:24[laughter]
30:26>> You know when I watch people interview
30:27I'm just like what are you really
30:28thinking [laughter] as you saying the
30:29thing I say? Yes.
30:32>> I don't need the body. I just [laughter]
30:35>> Yes. Um so you what do I think of you?
30:38>> Yeah.
30:38>> I think that it was inevitable.
30:41>> Dangote
30:43I've met him once before. I could never
30:44forget myself and I did but I met him in
30:46his offices. I could write a book about
30:47that entire hour.
30:48>> Really?
30:49>> Um
30:50>> an hour. You spent an hour with him.
30:52Okay.
30:52>> It wasn't really an hour alone. People
30:54were coming in and out, you know, weing,
30:56we stopping
30:57>> and this was many years ago
30:59>> and Deote is a historic figure
31:04like the world has never seen
31:07because he's from Africa. [laughter]
31:09So you want to think since mansa or
31:11whatever I like mana I like to see or
31:14whatever they call everybody feels that
31:15they know mana
31:17[laughter] story
31:18>> and you have to think about the last
31:20time
31:21>> a business leader was a cultural figure.
31:24>> Yeah. The last time an African business
31:28leader was a cultural figure that you
31:31will call his name in Sabo [laughter] in
31:34Unilag in Pen in Can Saberi walking on
31:40the road between two villages. I be like
31:42Dan be like we know that guy and not
31:44just we know that guy we like that guy
31:46>> in the worst PR period for capitalism.
31:49>> Yeah. True.
31:50>> In world history.
31:52>> So Danguti is a cultural figure.
31:54>> Yeah. not just a businessman. And I
31:57think he's finally enjoying it.
31:59[laughter]
31:59>> Legacy.
32:00>> I think he's Yes. I think he's finally
32:02figured out what his legacy would be.
32:04And I think it happens
32:06>> when Dango is one of my business role
32:08models. It doesn't make sense. And it's
32:10not because I hate it now. When I talk
32:11about Dango, people think it's because
32:12of IPO. I'm like, I've been talking
32:13about Dangote [laughter]
32:15>> since whatever. I say you people don't
32:17know what this man is doing
32:18>> because
32:20Dangot has gone through the worst few
32:23years of his life. Okay, explain.
32:25>> A few years ago, Nangod said in an
32:26interview and I think people didn't take
32:28him seriously because he's so rich that
32:30in the midst of setting up this refiner,
32:32it was about four or five years ago, he
32:33thought of committing suicide.
32:34>> It's crazy.
32:35>> Said it in an interview on stage
32:36actually in a public thing. Now, he
32:38didn't say in a dramatic way, you know,
32:39the way we millennials say it. We sit
32:41down, we talk about it, he just kind of
32:42said it and moved on. So, he at a point
32:44he felt like he had poured all his
32:46resources into this.
32:48>> Wow.
32:48>> And had given it all and it wasn't
32:50working.
32:52And so he cually thought of giving up.
32:55Now that's one. Two, you have to
32:57remember that before this final
32:58breakthrough, it was a fight of his life
33:00with the NNPC.
33:03The NNPC group MD was not all these
33:06people were doing was not part of it.
33:07[laughter]
33:08And Dangote had to come out in public.
33:11>> Yeah.
33:11>> And call out Dangote has never in his
33:15life.
33:16>> Yeah.
33:16>> As far as I know, called out anybody in
33:19politics or anything. He knows Nigeria.
33:21That's not the way you really do it if
33:23you're playing on that level. Dangote
33:25had to fight for his life.
33:28His friend, you know what everybody
33:29thinks, everybody calls him like they
33:31his friend. Fei people say Al Fe had to
33:34come and tweet
33:36in the midst of this PR war. Dangote
33:39survived that. That's the point at which
33:42in Nigeria you have to understand this
33:43sluck allies. This is Bened. This is man
33:46people have died in this country. People
33:48have died. [laughter] Look.
33:51YOU SAY THAT SOMEBODY is big. You know
33:53[laughter] the other day when say
33:54something Peter said better they can
33:58just shut you down. You better listen to
34:00what you see what happened to me now.
34:02>> Exactly. Can you imagine that me is not
34:05what we talking about [laughter]
34:07like look at
34:09>> the country can just move just
34:11>> and move on.
34:12>> So you have to understand that Dangote
34:14survival is not taking you can't take it
34:17for granted.
34:18>> Yeah. And he knew that more than anybody
34:21else. He knew that he fought the battle
34:23of his life. So when he survived that,
34:26>> I think this is amateur psychoanalysis.
34:28I think he felt he could play a bit
34:30>> and you know, I think he just felt, you
34:32know, we can let's have a blast. Let's
34:33have fun.
34:34>> This is [laughter] it.
34:36>> Just the posit. You know, people assume
34:38cuz you know, they're saying, okay, Dang
34:40Tay um obviously donates to like just
34:42campaign contributions and things like
34:43that. And you assume that well, if
34:46>> maybe this was under Bl's term, then NPC
34:49person should be cool with me or
34:52>> for whatever reason I'm
34:54>> like the Elon Musk I'm like I'm Elon
34:57Musk of Africa what are we talking about
34:58right so
34:59>> is it not better for you to be my friend
35:01than to be my enemy but in places like
35:02Nigeria
35:03>> you can have enemies behind so many
35:05doors right so I think helping us
35:07understand like the NNPC chairman now
35:10from your perspective what are his own
35:12incentives to not want to align with a
35:14dangote versus try to go up against
35:16somebody like that and What makes him
35:18them even think they can even win,
35:20>> right?
35:21>> Cuz [clears throat] that's another
35:22thing. It's like if you're going to go
35:23up against the king, how do you think
35:24you're going against this? Right. So,
35:25yeah. How how do you
35:26>> Have you ever been part of a a
35:28politician's mage before? [laughter]
35:33>> Yes. Exactly.
35:36>> It's you are not in the same Nigeria
35:38when you are there. See, let me read in
35:40my first book. I my second book with I
35:41turn generation. remember the presidency
35:43in about 2011 put me um Hilltop um
35:47Penthouse Transcop Hilton Penthouse
35:49first time in my life transcop Hilton
35:51>> and I remember and he left me and said
35:53stay as long as you want [laughter]
35:55not the president the presidency yes I
35:57was doing work
35:58>> and and I looked out from that top
36:01>> into Abuja you know when the devil told
36:03Jesus look [laughter] at the world I
36:05give it to you I'm telling you you don't
36:07understand
36:09>> I looked at it and I wrote down in my
36:11phone It is impossible to see Nigeria's
36:13problems
36:14>> from here
36:14>> from the rooftop of the Transcop Hilton.
36:16>> Yeah.
36:17>> Now when you are in the midst like there
36:19was a time in this life when I used to
36:20enter the villa like in and out and I
36:22used to feel so powerful as a 20 year
36:24old and I thought I could do anything. I
36:27thought I could do anything
36:28>> and I wasn't even in government.
36:30[laughter]
36:32>> I wasn't in government. That was the
36:33time when there was rumors I was going
36:34to be minister of so and so
36:36>> and I wasn't even in government
36:39>> and I felt I could do the through your
36:42veins you know I walked into a minister
36:45one of the most powerful minister's
36:46offices at that time walked in there was
36:47another minister waiting in the waiting
36:48room
36:49>> came in he said he was waiting for like
36:5030 minutes the psy came in then the
36:53minister said can come in now I didn't
36:56have any political office
36:58>> I felt I could do anything
36:59>> imagine you are now the DJ I'm not
37:02saying this what happened though the DJ
37:04of the NNPC
37:06>> which is the cash cow of the country
37:08>> of this economy really
37:11It's difficult to maintain a stronghold
37:13on reality.
37:15So people don't understand when say
37:18people change when in office, it's the
37:19people that don't change that are the
37:20weirdos.
37:22>> Nigerian power [laughter] is not one
37:24party.
37:25>> People lose their touch on reality. They
37:28think they can do anything. They think
37:30they can see. They think they can do and
37:32undo. Dangle. And they're not wrong
37:35because sometimes they have look the
37:38biggest airline in this country. People
37:39don't understand used to be Iguin air.
37:42>> Yeah.
37:42>> Then after that there was a time when
37:44all juice or was owned the airpiece of
37:46this country and the passenger came in
37:48allegedly
37:50[laughter]
37:51>> and that whole thing came crashing down
37:52one day.
37:53>> Yeah.
37:53>> So he's not whoever it is that thinks
37:55they are strong enough to pull down
37:56Dangote might not be wrong except that
38:01they met their match.
38:04>> So that's what I mean by Dangot is a
38:06singular historic figure. Yeah,
38:09>> what I'm saying that that Dangodi
38:10survived. So people now look at it and
38:11think it's of course he would have.
38:14>> But anybody who understands Nigerian
38:17power knew that this is the one time
38:19when he wouldn't have.
38:21>> And so without knowing the [laughter]
38:22specifics,
38:23>> somebody somewhere saw enough weakness
38:27>> to assume that the might of Nigerian
38:29power could make a difference here.
38:31>> Yeah.
38:31>> But they met a historic figure.
38:33>> He said they're going to say they
38:34pressing [laughter] my neck. No, but to
38:37follow up on that question, right, I
38:38think um the IPO just happened or is
38:40happening right now. I think he's
38:41extended it.
38:42>> Um and some of the things people have
38:44said is he's looking to bring 10 million
38:46Nigerians with him to also give him
38:48leverage. Have you heard Have you heard?
38:50>> I've heard it. I don't know that I
38:51believe it.
38:52>> And the reason you don't believe it is
38:54why or does it usually matter or what?
38:56>> It's because it doesn't I don't think he
38:57really needs it. Also, Nigerians are
38:59fickle like many human beings. I think
39:01it's strategic enough to know that
39:0210,000 people 10 million people today
39:05don't mean anything. 10 million people
39:06were behind Jonathan then they moved on
39:09to [laughter] they moved on. Look, I
39:11don't think so. I think that I think you
39:13know most pe most things people think
39:16are strategy are actually emergent
39:19strategy.
39:20>> That means the person didn't really go
39:22in thinking I can do this.
39:23>> Yeah.
39:24>> And to Nigerians we like conspiracy
39:26theories and now the rest of the world
39:27does. So we and I've worked in
39:29government. I worked with the biggest
39:30MDs across this country. And so let me
39:34tell you, let me share a story. Am I
39:35allowed to share a story?
39:36>> Yeah, of course. [laughter] Of course.
39:37>> So I remember um I remember I was in the
39:42I was in the villa. [laughter]
39:45>> Yes.
39:48Let's say it. We're just saying the
39:49real.
39:50>> I was with Jonathan
39:52>> in 2011. I [clears throat] was in his
39:54sitting room.
39:55>> Yeah.
39:56when he received the call from the INC
39:58chairman that the elections were going
40:01to be postponed.
40:02>> Interesting.
40:03>> So elder they were doing an elaborate
40:04drama for us. I doubt it but I was
40:07there. And Gulanta put down the phone
40:11and I can [clears throat] say cuz he
40:12looks good in this story. That's why I'm
40:13sharing it. And says people would think
40:16that I'm the one that did this thing now
40:18[laughter]
40:20and I do not know. And I went to the
40:23internet and people were saying Jonathan
40:25wants to read this election. HE HAS
40:26POSTPONED THE ELECTION to read it.
40:28>> This the 2015 president 2011 has the
40:31first time we were really on Twitter.
40:34What was GOING ON IS A STRATEGY. THEY'VE
40:37PLANNED IT. THEY'VE DONE IT. THEY KNOW
40:39WHAT THEY ARE DOING. [laughter]
40:41>> He was just sitting there
40:43>> and everybody thought it was a big plan.
40:442015 the same thing happened. Can I
40:47share this? [laughter]
40:492015
40:50Bhari was missing for a while during the
40:53campaign
40:55>> and then somebody issued somebody issued
40:58a photo. I can't tell you the full back
40:59end because these are my bonds and they
41:01you know I love them and respect them
41:03>> but everybody was panicking.
41:04>> Yeah,
41:05>> we need to say something. The candy
41:07cannot be missing and I was in charge of
41:08his Twitter handle
41:10>> and there was spread and that Twitter
41:12handle was like gold like finding an oil
41:13well [laughter] because essentially
41:14anything you say is what the candy said.
41:17Like you have to tweet you're
41:18incompetent. I'm like, I've been in P
41:19for so long. I don't know where the MAN
41:21IS. [laughter]
41:23WE CAN'T TWEET WHERE he is. What he
41:24might say is in K and he shows up in
41:26Cano.
41:28So we said, no, this is unprofessional.
41:30It's counterproductive. You have to have
41:32comfort with uncertainty.
41:33>> Yeah.
41:34>> And so we didn't. But somebody who was
41:36just trying to do their job saw a
41:37picture and released it [laughter]
41:40>> that he was in a meeting in Transcop
41:42Hilton. Then fire and some other
41:45candidates
41:46now said LOOK AT THEM THEY'RE DECEIVING
41:49US. PEOPLE WERE LIKE LOOK AT THE
41:50STRATEGY THAT they did. They did a fake
41:52picture. I'm like they didn't do fake
41:53[laughter] picture. A desperate person
41:56trying to there was no grand conspiracy.
41:58Most of the problems in Nigeria are not
42:00brilliant conspiracy stupidity.
42:01[laughter]
42:03What the dang so Nigerians when they see
42:05things
42:06>> Yeah.
42:06>> because there's so many things wrong in
42:08our country. We like to think it's
42:09strategic. [laughter]
42:10So you're like, "No, Dangote must have
42:12planned it." Maybe he did. I don't know.
42:16>> But more likely, Dangote had an IPO that
42:19was going to do multiple things for him.
42:20Going to build his brand.
42:22>> It's going to build his business. It's
42:23going to create knock on effects across
42:25several African markets. It's going to
42:27signal to the world. Remember, he's
42:29trying to list internationally that this
42:31is a serious-minded business from
42:33Africa. Yeah.
42:35>> 10 million people did this IPO means
42:38that for a long time
42:39>> anybody wants to come and do business on
42:41this continent has to talk to
42:42>> any president any minister WTO AFDB KKK
42:47CCP [laughter]
42:49>> there is no reason why he shouldn't
42:51follow that path that has opened up then
42:53later he can now think to himself what
42:55can I do with this 10 million people
42:57>> but at this time if there is any
43:00strategy he's just discovering it as
43:02he's going [gasps]
43:03>> I I wanted to ask and honestly today
43:06like I said it feels like you've come in
43:07here hat trick like I don't know where
43:10to go how to start cuz I feel like all
43:12the questions we've never got to any of
43:14the questions [laughter] WE HAVE
43:16>> YEAH that's what I'm saying we're not
43:18>> this is this is sorry [laughter] but I
43:20wanted to ask
43:22>> get excited
43:25>> I know every time we have [laughter]
43:26somebody like you here so we need to I
43:28need to enjoy it I heard ABOUT YOU THAT
43:29I I NEED TO [laughter] I need to enjoy
43:32it
43:33>> when you don't come from money in Lagos.
43:34What does ambition force you to become?
43:37>> H desperate.
43:38>> Okay,
43:39>> that word just came to I was going to
43:40think about it, but the word just came
43:41desperate.
43:42>> Desperate
43:44and afraid.
43:46>> And I know that because that's me.
43:47>> Yeah,
43:49>> is good. [laughter]
43:50>> Switch the energy.
43:54>> Oh, the spirits. Here I tell people that
43:58I think that if you come to my house for
44:00instance, I always have people come into
44:02my living room and they like we can do
44:03events here. I said maybe because I
44:06lived in a matchbox all my life
44:08>> and now I can't believe how much space
44:10was possible in this life.
44:11>> Yeah.
44:12>> And Lagos is such a brutal place.
44:17[snorts]
44:17>> Lagos is so brutal. It crushes dream.
44:20Nigeria generally does Lagos
44:22particularly.
44:23>> It gives you so much hope because you
44:25see so much money and then it crushes
44:27you mercilessly. You lose your job, you
44:29can't pay your rent, you know. I saw my
44:31dad, my dad lost his job with the AP. So
44:34my dad was, you know, upwardly mobile.
44:36Now I can think oh that's what upwardly
44:37mobile meant you know
44:39>> and um you know we had we had his pou
44:43505
44:45you know we're balling he had you know
44:47all of that and he lost his job with the
44:48AP. I think they were made redundant and
44:50I was in a private school kung
44:53just changed
44:55>> you know I always joke and people don't
44:56understand that this comes from
44:57experience I'm like I'll go into a
44:58restaurant now because with fame and
45:00with money people will be so nice to you
45:02it is it and I'm like just let me not be
45:04able to pay [laughter]
45:06>> all these waiters smiling at me Mr.
45:09Trudy I'm your fan Mr. True day. I love
45:11you. Just not be able to pay and see how
45:13it is switch. I know that
45:15>> because I've been there.
45:18>> I've been there. I'm just like how much
45:20[laughter] like why are you embarrassing
45:22me like this?
45:24>> So that's that that is I [laughter]
45:26think it's that peculiar mixture of
45:27hope. So it's like it's like you can
45:29almost touch the hope.
45:31>> You can almost touch it like oh I'm
45:32going to be this big man or this big
45:34woman
45:35>> and you can just lose it like this. I
45:37think it makes people really
45:41desperate. So it's almost like because
45:43the the the turn is so sharp. Look, I've
45:46had mentors
45:48>> who have called me in the morning, dude.
45:50I don't know what to feed my children.
45:52>> Okay.
45:52>> People who were the kings of the media.
45:55>> Really? Kings kings and queen. We got we
45:56got to put that pin in there cuz we got
45:58to talk about that. But continue.
46:00>> And come later and say I don't have many
46:03one came to meet me at Lagos business
46:04school. was in cash just to cash. I just
46:07thought [gasps] how can you you were the
46:09one we're looking up to when we were
46:11coming in
46:12>> and so that kind of thing that
46:13desperation people know that they're not
46:15going from zero they're not going from
46:1710 to seven
46:19>> most people have seen people go from 10
46:21to zero
46:22>> and so it's a hustle it will never be me
46:26>> it will never be me and so that leads to
46:29a desperation and that desperate so
46:31people always ask said this to ask why
46:34do Nigerian politicians steal so
46:36So I usually do this. I ask them about
46:38certain governors that were popular in
46:391999. When does he hear about this
46:41governor? When does he hear about that
46:42deputy governor? When does he hear about
46:44this minister? I say no. They say no.
46:45And I tell them this minister has been
46:47broke. She was moved chased out of her
46:48house in Ecoi because she got it under
46:51government. Later realized the document
46:52was fake. Had to move out. I said people
46:55in this country have moved from 100 to
46:58zero. And many politicians in Nigeria
47:00grew through the ranks. They were house
47:02boys. They were protocol. They were
47:04thugs. Yeah,
47:06>> they saw it happen and these are not
47:08systems builders. These are not these
47:11are
47:12>> and so when they get in there they know
47:13that they can go back to zero.
47:15>> So they keep because they don't have the
47:16capacity to build
47:18>> they are mass.
47:19>> Yeah.
47:19>> Is because of what I saw as a child.
47:21>> Rent seeking too.
47:22>> Yes. Yes. So renting all of that comes
47:23from that desperation of so that's what
47:26that's what growing up in in in Lagos is
47:28I mean I remember just in the school and
47:31I'll be called to in front of our
47:32assembly constantly and be flogged for
47:35not even to pay school fees
47:36>> and the and so I was already one of the
47:38less privileged in the school. My
47:40parents were really just pushing
47:42everything. Imagine I remember one of my
47:44classmates day his father used to have
47:45this jeep. I can never forget it. And
47:46when I'm coming out of school picking,
47:48I'll find a way to just hide [laughter]
47:49so that they don't see that my mother is
47:51taking me to the bus stop. And so I'm
47:52already feeling inferior
47:55then you now flog me from the front of
47:56the whole school.
47:57>> Wait for not paying school.
47:58>> For not paying school. So the idea of
47:59it, the logic of it, human beings are
48:01always rational even though they're
48:02illogical. Logic of it was when you go
48:05and tell your parents how much pain
48:07>> that you are going through, they will
48:09now rush [laughter] and pay the school
48:10fees.
48:10>> You know, this actually used to happen.
48:12So when I I went to Enugo, I was I was
48:14born in Enugo. So they actually used to
48:16flog and I think the school fees back
48:18then was as little as maybe 250 naira,
48:20500 naira and they would flog you in
48:22front of the
48:22>> Oh yeah. So you know it's not even a
48:24thing. It happened in many schools. They
48:25learned it was a cultural thing
48:27>> you know. So for that I never thought
48:28about how strange that was or so you
48:30just started talking about it right now.
48:31[laughter]
48:32>> It's Nigeria
48:34THE KIDS BECAUSE THE PARENTS CAN'T PAY
48:37THE school fees. Just send the kid home.
48:39No, they don't want you to go home. They
48:40want you to pay the fees. [laughter]
48:43If you only money, the person goes, how
48:45you going to get the money back? So, let
48:46me tell you this is classic Naz.
48:50>> People are often illogical, but they
48:51irrational
48:52>> and if you're trying to do public
48:53communication, you have to understand
48:54why are they doing the things they
48:55doing. So, that's why it was. So, that's
48:57what desperate. I remember being so
48:58desperate as a young person just like I
49:00must succeed.
49:02>> I must survive. I shall not be poor. It
49:04[laughter] will not happen. It will
49:06never happen.
49:07>> Yeah. No, but
49:09how much time DO YOU [laughter] HAVE?
49:11LET'S GO. LET'S JUST START BECAUSE
49:13BECAUSE THIS PODCAST IS FOR ME. I DON'T
49:14KNOW ABOUT WHO ELSE IS [laughter] watch
49:18because this this is so fascinating. So
49:21then I wanted to then ask student today,
49:23right? Having been through that like I
49:26must succeed. I cannot be poor.
49:28>> You have been through the depression.
49:30You've been through therapy. I was doing
49:31all the research on that. Even the book
49:32that you read.
49:33>> Yeah.
49:34>> When you think about where your nervous
49:36system is today,
49:37>> right? How much more work did it take to
49:40just get to regulation?
49:41>> It's good I ask that question because
49:43for the first time in my life, this is
49:45exclusive breaking news.
49:48>> For [laughter] the first time in my
49:49life,
49:50>> my blood pressure has been consistently
49:52below 80 lower. You know about
49:55>> for the first time in my life this year.
49:57>> Yeah.
49:57>> Wow.
49:58>> Now I've had high blood pressure since I
50:00was 18.
50:01>> Yeah. It's crazy.
50:02>> I was diagnosed with high blood pressure
50:03in it.
50:05>> Yeah.
50:05>> By the Lansing market. this where the
50:07hospital was at the age of 18 and I've
50:10been taking better blockers and all of
50:11that for the past 23 years and that's
50:15what hustling in Lagos did to me when
50:18the doctor was looking I was working
50:19full-time for when I was 15 not holiday
50:21job not ancient ship full two 9 to5s
50:24back to back
50:25>> and so the doctor was asking me how can
50:27an 18-year-old child have pleasure so
50:30we're tracing it's like so I was and he
50:32just stumbled upon a question about my
50:33work schedule
50:36>> and I wasn't really poor. I was doing it
50:38because I wanted to not be poor. My
50:39parents could take care of me, but I
50:40just knew this money we have is not the
50:42money that we need in this Lagos.
50:44[laughter] We need to proceed. Now, what
50:46happened now is that progressively,
50:48that's such a good question. Over the
50:50years, I've come down.
50:52>> Yeah.
50:53>> And this year in particular, it's even
50:55straight. I didn't even make the
50:56connection. This is the first year that
50:57I've given up operations completely on
50:59my businesses.
51:00>> So, actually, there's a link, I'm sure,
51:03between that and my blood pressure
51:04coming down. Cuz the reason why I'm
51:06asking you is I've been going through
51:07the same. I feel like maybe I'm like 8
51:11years to getting to where you're at.
51:13[laughter] So the reason why I'm asking
51:14the reason why I'm asking is because
51:16>> you know for so long like you're you're
51:18saying like
51:19>> I must not be poor. I must succeed. um
51:22what all the talks in your head right
51:25and then for the first time I was like
51:27wait my actual flow state is like
51:31gentle soft like I should be attracting
51:34not hustling
51:36you understand what I'm saying so get to
51:38that point where you're like you know
51:39what all this whole thing I was doing I
51:41striving for and then the most important
51:42part because we're both people who read
51:44I was asking you while we were reading
51:45is you now look throughout history
51:47>> and look at the patterns
51:48>> and look at the patterns
51:49>> of what actually worked and gave you the
51:50most number one, but also you observe
51:53other people and we talked about how
51:54power is transient, right? And you now
51:56start saying, "Ah, okay, this one
51:57hustled his life to death.
52:00>> Steve Jobs dead at 54. Okay,
52:02>> why are we doing it?" And you're now
52:04saying to yourself like, "What is what
52:06does success truly actually mean?"
52:08>> And what does it mean to you? Like you
52:09said, to me, not to my people, not to
52:12what does it mean to me? What does
52:14should they consider success? I wanted
52:16to ask you that but even with that is
52:19>> what other things did you see because
52:21you've been somebody who's been at the
52:23forefront of this country you've been in
52:24the rooms you've been behind the rooms
52:26you've been inside the rooms where
52:27they're talking about these things and
52:28what else did you see from the the
52:31standpoint of how transient power is
52:34where you just said to yourself I cannot
52:35come myself
52:36>> that's so powerful
52:37>> what were some of the stories there
52:40>> so you're right in the direction so but
52:43is it I'll take the essence I I think
52:45the thing was that
52:50>> you know if you spent enough time and
52:54you guys have with people who are
52:55powerful
52:57>> they say don't get too close to your
52:58heroes [laughter]
53:01>> I'm just like okay human beings are
53:02flawed deeply flawed very flawed
53:05extremely flawed [laughter]
53:07>> and they are also incredibly good so
53:10what happened was
53:12>> I got bored with powerful people M
53:15>> it wasn't what I thought. [laughter]
53:17>> Yeah,
53:18>> it wasn't. You know, it's like I say
53:20about Nigerian billionaires. I I like
53:22Ellen Musk
53:23>> because I'm like, if you're going to be
53:24a billionaire, that's how you should do
53:25it.
53:26>> Do what you want to do. Be interesting.
53:28>> Yeah. Yeah.
53:29>> Follow your convictions. Even if four
53:31nations hate you, even if an entire be
53:33yourself
53:34>> here, they didn't impress me. The
53:36quality of their thoughts,
53:38>> the long-term vision, the enjoyment of
53:42life. Yeah,
53:43>> but this is a game.
53:48So, let me tell you what made me global
53:51global economic forum 2014.
53:53>> Global shapers. You were global shap.
53:56Yes.
53:56>> Global shapers. It was held in Abuja.
53:58>> Yeah.
53:59>> 2014.
54:01Everybody was there. Everybody in
54:03Nigeria, Dangote, everybody was there.
54:05President everywhere.
54:07>> And I was watching. I'm a young boy. I'm
54:08trying to build business. This is where
54:10I began to switch. And I write it in my
54:11book. They were all hustling. The MDs
54:15were hustling to meet the minister. The
54:17minister was hustling to meet the vice
54:19president. Vice president take picture
54:21with Bill Gates or not with Gordon
54:23Brown. So I stopped and said
54:25>> these are people. These [laughter] are
54:26the people I want to be like.
54:29>> All the work I'm doing is to be like
54:31these people
54:32>> and they're not even settled.
54:33>> Yeah. [laughter]
54:35>> Like am I going to become the MD of the
54:37most powerful bank in the country?
54:39>> Yeah. and still be hustling for a photo.
54:42[laughter]
54:43I'm telling you. So, I got I realized
54:45that ah for the kind of life I want to
54:47live,
54:47>> it's not for me.
54:48>> This is not the pathway.
54:49>> Yeah, [clears throat]
54:50>> it might be the same. I might still have
54:51the same money,
54:52>> but this hustle,
54:54>> the way they doing it, it's not. I think
54:56I began to really rethink my life. And I
54:58writing books, so I know that I'm not
55:00just saying it now.
55:01>> I think that's when that hits me that
55:02there has to be a better way to do the
55:03things I want to do.
55:04>> Wait, is it this book here?
55:06>> I'm not even sure which one. I think
55:07it's this one. [laughter] I think it's
55:08this one. Is this one? Okay, it's this
55:10one. Okay.
55:11>> You know the other thing too, it's like
55:12how depression save my life. We're
55:14alwaysing
55:16a book everywhere. [laughter]
55:17People tell me I feel that's why I'm
55:19supposed to be in life. I'm like,
55:20there's a BOOK COMING OUT. [laughter]
55:21>> I FEEL SO BAD BECAUSE I WENT THROUGH
55:25TRADITIONAL publishing and literally I
55:27get an email from my team and they're
55:29like, "Oh, WE'RE MOVING INTO NOVEMBER."
55:30I SAID, "YEAH, [laughter]
55:32WE'RE GOING TO FIGHT TONIGHT. MORE.
55:36>> SO, it's coming some lines with what I
55:39got.
55:40>> No, I was going to say um
55:42>> you know there's something else that
55:44people always say I see online too is
55:46how a lot of Nigerian elites or we have
55:48lowlevel Nigerian elite low quality
55:50Nigerian elites, right? And you're so
55:52right because again you say to yourself,
55:55is this the best like with all the money
55:57you've accumulated with everything, is
55:58this the best thing you could have done
56:00with it? like why is it that it just
56:03ends up being so like lowquality stuff
56:06you know so I I definitely understand
56:08that I would not want to switch back to
56:10talking about Bhari and the campaign
56:12>> and the reason is this right again
56:14political science and political
56:16philosophy and reading all the books
56:18right
56:18>> and one of the things I've always loved
56:20is a person let let me just tell you my
56:23thoughts
56:23>> okay
56:24>> I felt that the campaign you guys did it
56:26was such a great campaign but what it
56:29then allowed people to do was to put
56:31their
56:32it was almost like Barry became a canvas
56:34>> projected
56:35>> and then people projected onto him.
56:36>> Yes.
56:37>> And now I'm a student of history.
56:39>> I'm going through history. I'm like I'm
56:40so I'm confused. So this was the same
56:42man
56:42>> from the 1980s
56:44>> that you guys
56:45>> said he had to go. They put him on house
56:48arrest and you rejected him three times.
56:50[laughter]
56:51>> Your nervous system rejected him three
56:52times.
56:53>> Yes. Yes.
56:55>> So you know so there must have been
56:57something was going on. like seeh not
57:01you everybody else who's ready just know
57:04it's not you three times
57:06>> and at the fourth time you've not forced
57:08yourself to do and the only way you
57:09could force yourself to do it is you had
57:11to project onto him that's where the
57:13campaign comes in
57:14>> I wanted to ask from your perspective
57:17what was it about Bare
57:18>> that made so many people willing and
57:21want to project onto him something he
57:24himself was not and did not claim to be
57:26>> yeah you said it all you answered the
57:27question with Hillary Clinton. Hillary
57:29Clinton testifying I think about the
57:30Iraq war. No,
57:31>> I think she was interviewing David
57:32Patrius about the Iraq war called it the
57:34willing suspension of disbelief.
57:36>> Yeah.
57:37>> Otherwise known as hope. [laughter]
57:39>> So in this book interestingly that we
57:42brought it here um when I sent it to my
57:44editor my editor said you didn't explain
57:46your bhari participation.
57:48>> This is a book about how depression
57:49saved my life. It's like no you're
57:51dodging it.
57:52>> Yeah.
57:52>> And I realized that I was because by the
57:54time I stopped doing politics I was
57:55tired of all the drama. So I think that
57:57the quality of some of the analysis on
58:00the B campaign is poor. Like other thing
58:03people got paid that's not the issue.
58:05People getting paid is not the issue.
58:07There were deeper psychosis in the
58:09Nigerian subconscious and unconscious
58:12that led to that political moment. You
58:13you're the first person that but of
58:15course it's you guys now. First has come
58:16to that. So now so I said anybody
58:18anybody wants to understand there's a
58:20chapter where I tackle it and I'm going
58:21to shorten it. And I said this not
58:23because I care what people think but I
58:25say I don't lie. I try not to lie in
58:27public. Anybody who really wants to
58:28understand, No, I don't lie, it's not
58:30true. I try not to lie. [laughter]
58:32Anybody wants to understand what happens
58:34should read that chapter.
58:35>> Okay. So, this book,
58:36>> yes, this book.
58:37>> All right.
58:37>> Yes. I explained even my mindset.
58:41>> Yeah.
58:41>> I explained it. I explained what the
58:44people in the campaign felt. Governors,
58:46so Nigerian can be terrible. But the
58:48governors that supported Boohari
58:51believed that Nigeria was about to
58:52change.
58:53>> Really? See, it doesn't mean that they
58:55didn't think they also going to make
58:56some money by the side. They didn't
58:57think they also didn't want power. Human
58:58are complex. We have multiple
58:59motivations.
59:00>> But they thought that this machine that
59:02we're about to bring in.
59:03>> You have to understand how Bhari's
59:05campaign was. It wasn't just the Bhari
59:06campaign wasn't Bhari. It was a
59:09candidacy that had PDM,
59:11>> as much as you can call it PDM, the art
59:13political movement. It had AC, one of
59:16the most powerful political movements
59:17this country has ever seen. Tinus
59:19movement. It had Quanquas movement. It
59:22had it was a superpower. HAD YOU NEVER
59:25forget this campaign people the
59:28governors I know some of the governors
59:30who were sitting they thought that look
59:32with this man in political power was
59:34shimai handling the economy you know
59:36this this this this we enter this man
59:39will just step back we just want to
59:41change this country [laughter]
59:44>> they thought he was going TO STEP BACK
59:45>> YES THAT'S HOW IT IS WHEN YOU SAY we
59:48thought a a president is going to
59:50[laughter] step back
59:52so I'm telling Nobody look nobody even
59:56the most say nobody almost nobody even
59:58the most cynical
1:00:00>> that worked in that campaign for saw the
1:00:02next 88 is not about me I'm not I'm
1:00:04talking about I s I had conversations
1:00:06with them
1:00:07>> again unless they elaborate and I do not
1:00:09think they
1:00:10>> now I disliked Bhari intensely
1:00:15>> first two times he ran for office
1:00:17>> disliked him intense in intensely
1:00:21but we We did that thing that H said
1:00:25>> when it came we had anger towards the
1:00:28person who was in office
1:00:31and we had waited for somebody else to
1:00:34come and collect this anger and run with
1:00:36it. [laughter]
1:00:38Nobody did. And so it's like when you
1:00:40stop every I always say you never know
1:00:41who you're going to have sex with unless
1:00:42you're the only two people in the world
1:00:43[laughter]
1:00:44about to renegotiate. Ah she doesn't
1:00:46look that bad. Ah she's not as bad as
1:00:48she looks.
1:00:49>> So that's what happened with began to we
1:00:50began to transform in our minds. Oh,
1:00:53he's a born again democrat. Oh, he's
1:00:56this.
1:00:56>> He wears slippers.
1:00:57>> Yes. Exactly. We now began to project
1:00:59onto him.
1:01:00>> And he had finally learned to shape
1:01:02shift. [laughter]
1:01:04>> He understood. So the man finally rose
1:01:06up to the moment.
1:01:07>> And so what happened was because people
1:01:08just wanted people just wanted the
1:01:11ruling party to live.
1:01:14So the fact that he had now learned to
1:01:16do now this includes me because unlike
1:01:20other campaign I've done I've done
1:01:21multiple campaigns as a job. [laughter]
1:01:24>> Yeah.
1:01:24>> Just as a job. You're a client you hire
1:01:26me. This one I believed it.
1:01:29>> Interesting.
1:01:30>> So even me [laughter]
1:01:33drank from my own supply.
1:01:37>> You know and at a point I write it in
1:01:40the book. One of my dearest friend
1:01:41called me after he had won
1:01:44>> was with him
1:01:46and said today I think we've created a
1:01:47monster
1:01:49>> that I thought oh it's not us it's the
1:01:51he's the ex governor that created this
1:01:52you know I'm not part of it said
1:01:55immediately he won
1:01:57everything changed it shocked some of
1:02:01the most powerful people in the country
1:02:02in this country
1:02:03>> so what happened that even they had
1:02:06forgotten that this is the man that for
1:02:08did a coup in 1984 We forgot
1:02:10>> this is the man that chased the might
1:02:12that did the mighty sa attack
1:02:13>> war in discipline.
1:02:14>> This is the brain of all this because he
1:02:16become a grandfather. [laughter]
1:02:19>> I'm telling you a nation can be deluded.
1:02:21>> Yeah.
1:02:22>> Interesting.
1:02:23>> A nation. So that's what happened. We
1:02:24projected
1:02:26>> all our hopes, all our anger,
1:02:28>> all our dreams into a willing
1:02:31receptacle.
1:02:32>> Do you think it's that we can be deluded
1:02:34or that we're not good students of
1:02:35history?
1:02:36>> No, no, no. Hold on. As well, I have a
1:02:38point to add. Right.
1:02:40>> So I think cuz I'm I'm also an American
1:02:44citizen. So
1:02:46>> if I had not seen Trump
1:02:49>> the first time.
1:02:50>> First time.
1:02:51>> Yes. [laughter] Yes.
1:02:52>> This thing you're saying I would not
1:02:54belong. I'd have said
1:02:56>> shoot you need to go deeper. I don't
1:02:58think you're being honest.
1:03:01But now that we're here with Trump
1:03:04>> Yes.
1:03:04>> and I'm seeing it can happen even in
1:03:06America. super educated system even
1:03:09though our our our voting block is not
1:03:12as educated but
1:03:13>> yes it's happening in educated countries
1:03:15happen in Italy it's happening in France
1:03:16everywhere it's happening in the UK they
1:03:18forgot that removing prime ministers
1:03:20shortly after they come let me see how
1:03:22this one is going to do [laughter]
1:03:24>> so look history when Nigerian says
1:03:25because we don't read history I'm like
1:03:26first of all what history are we read
1:03:28>> the history was bad history we I read
1:03:30history it wasn't high quality history
1:03:32>> it has nothing to do with history now me
1:03:35I hold myself responsible
1:03:37I consider myself to be cosplay.
1:03:44>> So this is not even excusing myself. I
1:03:47should have read deeper and known
1:03:48better.
1:03:49>> Yeah.
1:03:49>> I didn't know. So I didn't know
1:03:52>> Yeah.
1:03:53>> the details of Bhari's past. I didn't
1:03:56allow And then I also didn't allow
1:03:57myself know.
1:03:58>> Yeah.
1:03:59>> It's like we've chosen
1:04:00>> to put a blind spot.
1:04:01>> Blind spot to see.
1:04:02>> I don't know if I would have done
1:04:04differently.
1:04:04>> Yeah. But I know that I won't have
1:04:05entered as I would have entered I don't
1:04:07want to say blindly because I own my
1:04:09choices.
1:04:10>> I would have entered
1:04:11>> expecting some of the things I expected.
1:04:14>> My expectations would have been
1:04:15different.
1:04:16>> So it's not history.
1:04:18>> Look delusion.
1:04:21>> When a nation is desperate for hope,
1:04:23>> it will cling on to anything. But okay,
1:04:26so now with the benefit of hindsight,
1:04:28right? Sometimes I say it's better to
1:04:30take a small L than a bigger L that was
1:04:32coming down the line, right? what was
1:04:35going through and maybe this is for our
1:04:37viewers and maybe paint a picture of
1:04:39>> cuz now when you look at how bad things
1:04:41are and you're saying but good luck you
1:04:43guys were saying that it was so bad.
1:04:45>> What was going on back then at that
1:04:47period of time? Can you take us back to
1:04:48that period?
1:04:50How bad it
1:04:54has rejected three times now compared to
1:04:58obviously in hindsight if we knew that
1:05:00in this life there's levels of shaking
1:05:01right that the what God has been telling
1:05:03you ABOUT
1:05:05>> YEAH EXACTLY because right now if you
1:05:07tell Nigerians if I take you back to
1:05:09[laughter]
1:05:09that time give us
1:05:12>> so what was going on that we thought
1:05:13that this was not thought that clearly
1:05:16was very bad for people what was going
1:05:17on can you take us back to that time
1:05:18>> see this
1:05:19Why you guys need to win a web?
1:05:21[laughter]
1:05:22>> Let me tell let me remind people.
1:05:24>> For the first time in our history as a
1:05:28nation,
1:05:28>> yeah,
1:05:29>> our capital was bombed under Jonathan.
1:05:32>> Okay. Abuja
1:05:34>> 2014 or 2013. It was bombed twice.
1:05:37>> People forget.
1:05:40>> People forget. People forget.
1:05:42>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. like and it was
1:05:45bombed just before we went to Abuja for
1:05:47the World Economic Forum in 2014.
1:05:49>> Yeah.
1:05:49>> So, so we're in the world. We were in
1:05:52fear
1:05:53>> because they had promised us and we you
1:05:55know of that and but there was fe the
1:05:58insecurity. So insecurity is bad now.
1:06:00>> Yeah. Yeah.
1:06:00>> But it continues getting bad. So it took
1:06:03orders it got orders of magnitude bad in
1:06:06a very short period.
1:06:07>> It felt like
1:06:09>> Yes.
1:06:09>> felt like there was no president. So
1:06:12just to just to remind you
1:06:14>> and it has not happened since.
1:06:15>> Yeah. Yeah.
1:06:17>> Yeah.
1:06:17>> So there WAS THAT. SO THAT ONE I can
1:06:19never forget the cheaper girls kidnap.
1:06:22Now schools kidnaps students kidnap has
1:06:24unfortunately become part of the body
1:06:26politic.
1:06:27>> But then
1:06:28>> it wasn't a thing like that's
1:06:30>> this number of girls.
1:06:32>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
1:06:33>> At once
1:06:34>> and you attacking the protesters.
1:06:37>> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. Yeah. So it
1:06:40was that the insecurity
1:06:43was horrendous
1:06:45>> that for me was lives and property is
1:06:49the number one job of a government
1:06:52national security not regime security
1:06:54>> and so there was that second now this
1:06:56wasn't part of my own issues security
1:06:58was my own issue but I can talk about
1:06:59other people
1:07:00>> remember that the order of [snorts]
1:07:02corruption [laughter]
1:07:05>> in you have to go back to 2013 that was
1:07:07when the central bank Governor of the
1:07:10country.
1:07:10>> Yeah.
1:07:11>> Effectively accused his president of
1:07:13robbery.
1:07:14>> This is Sani, right?
1:07:15>> Sani.
1:07:15>> Yeah.
1:07:16>> Never happened before. Never happened
1:07:18since. [laughter]
1:07:20>> So not me. Corruption is not really my
1:07:22own voting issue.
1:07:23>> Yeah. Yeah. Cuz everywhere is corrupt.
1:07:24>> My sister, look, if you talk about
1:07:26people that they think are saints, they
1:07:29have to choose between the options
1:07:30available. That's what democracy.
1:07:32>> Yeah.
1:07:32>> So that was it. Nigerians thought
1:07:35remember Nigeria were like THEY USING 1
1:07:37BILLION NAIRA to eat in aso rock now
1:07:40that's really scandalous because as rock
1:07:43is not just the president and his wife
1:07:44as an entire ecosystem
1:07:46>> but that's what Nigerians were thinking
1:07:47that was the image that the Jonathan
1:07:49government had
1:07:50>> of irrevocable corruption
1:07:52>> and rudlessness
1:07:54>> so by the time and those things I'm just
1:07:56I always compare I'm like it wasn't
1:07:58really any better during yoda first term
1:08:03Obasan Jo was like this you know I I I
1:08:05have a film G of contemporary history.
1:08:08>> Yeah.
1:08:09>> But by the time it now touched my own
1:08:11voting issue
1:08:13>> which was security which is like I can
1:08:14forgive you for corruption. It's a
1:08:16complex system. I can forgive you for
1:08:18this. Your polit your opponents are
1:08:20liars. I can forgive you for this. And
1:08:22Jonathan is everything said and done a
1:08:25fundamentally decent man.
1:08:26>> One of the most decent people to ever
1:08:28take office in Nigeria.
1:08:29>> Fundamentally decent. that thing he did
1:08:32nobody before after can I imagine doing
1:08:34that
1:08:35>> conceded. So it wasn't about him.
1:08:37>> It was that the country just felt as if
1:08:38anything could happen at any time.
1:08:41>> So anything could happen. Which one is
1:08:42next? Is it Lagos next? Which one is
1:08:44next? Do you know that they've not
1:08:44finished recovering all girls till
1:08:46today?
1:08:46>> Yeah,
1:08:46>> that's crazy. [laughter]
1:08:48>> They've now I'm not supporting anybody.
1:08:50Okay, let me not say. But they've
1:08:51recovered the last time we all came and
1:08:53shouted they recovered those people.
1:08:55>> Yeah. You have to understand what it
1:08:56feels like to be like the president
1:08:59cannot even recover
1:09:00>> people that are within Nigerian
1:09:02territory.
1:09:03>> Yeah.
1:09:04>> And so look there are levels of
1:09:06culpability.
1:09:07>> Yeah.
1:09:07>> And again I also remind people that you
1:09:09know this whole thing that we elites say
1:09:11in Lagos in you know the government was
1:09:14so bad. There are
1:09:15>> it's half of this country doesn't agree
1:09:16with us. really
1:09:18>> if you think body was a bad president,
1:09:19you've not seen public opinion polling
1:09:21in his second term in office.
1:09:23>> In in almost all of northeast and north
1:09:27central Nigeria, Bhari is considered a
1:09:30success.
1:09:31>> Why why is that?
1:09:32>> You can ask them. [laughter]
1:09:34But I'm saying that sometimes those of
1:09:35us who are elites since I've never
1:09:37really shared an opinion whether I think
1:09:39okay now I have before but later um
1:09:42people think so this thing is not really
1:09:44a consensus. There are parts of this
1:09:46country that think Abbacha is one of our
1:09:47best presidents.
1:09:49>> So what you should do is the next time
1:09:51um Abbacha's anniversary comes on go and
1:09:54search Abbacha presidency. I'm not
1:09:55talking about random people. I'm talking
1:09:57about intellectuals
1:09:58>> historians. But that's not even on this
1:09:59level. That's not on the bachelor level.
1:10:00That's a minority.
1:10:01>> Half of the at least nearly half of the
1:10:03countries think that Boohari was a bad
1:10:04president. So let's hold that if you
1:10:07really want to change our country and
1:10:09and be humble about that. But in this
1:10:11case there are levels of culpability for
1:10:13those who now think it was a bad
1:10:14decision. One was some of us it was that
1:10:16there was no history. We didn't spend
1:10:18time really understanding recent
1:10:20history.
1:10:21>> There was people who allowed themselves
1:10:22to project and obliterate reality. There
1:10:25was all of that. But you have to
1:10:26understand that there was approximate
1:10:27cause that made that possible. It was a
1:10:31country we had never seen before
1:10:33>> and we're angry and frightened.
1:10:36>> Okay.
1:10:37>> Now I wanted to switch to Ghana,
1:10:39>> right? Because [laughter] you know you
1:10:40know me when
1:10:42we do this research
1:10:44>> when we do THIS I [laughter] GO DEEP
1:10:47>> I stud I study those all weekend so I
1:10:51was I'm ready for you this what I'M
1:10:53READY FOR [laughter] YOU
1:10:54>> BECAUSE AN ARGUMENT CAN BE MADE
1:10:56>> AN ARGUMENT CAN BE MADE if in history an
1:10:59argument can be made that
1:11:00>> yes
1:11:01>> you YOU ARE SOLELY RESPONSIBLE
1:11:04for 220 million PEOPLE IN NIGERIA
1:11:07[laughter]
1:11:0860 MILLION PEOPLE meeting people in
1:11:09Ghana
1:11:11>> and that they shake it up. Some people
1:11:12meet in the last 8 years. You play a
1:11:14hard in it now at least you're in the
1:11:16history booksh
1:11:17but [laughter] you're going to they're
1:11:18going to put you there somewhere
1:11:19somehow. So I was reading this and I was
1:11:21like this is so fasc I don't know if you
1:11:23if [snorts] you actually reflect on it
1:11:25because I'm like I do
1:11:26>> first of all
1:11:28>> the work you did by the way excellent
1:11:30like nobody nobody is saying that it was
1:11:32bad [laughter] work reforming my money.
1:11:34No, no. But what we're saying is that
1:11:35the work that you did and the people you
1:11:37did it for, granted all of us were with
1:11:39you. Yeah. All of us were with you.
1:11:41>> All of us were deluded with you.
1:11:44>> That's in Ghana.
1:11:45>> No. Ghana and Nigeria. All of us were
1:11:46deluded with you.
1:11:47>> You did some good
1:11:50relax. [laughter]
1:11:51I want to I want to be very clear with
1:11:53my question. All of us were with you.
1:11:55>> But you know if it's French revolution,
1:11:57somebody has to go first. First best
1:12:00first best first best first best first
1:12:00best first best first best first best
1:12:00first best first best first. Okay.
1:12:01>> The reason why I say this is the Ghana.
1:12:03Yes.
1:12:04>> Nana aku.
1:12:06>> Yes.
1:12:07>> All of us that Koolaid, if you think we
1:12:08drank Koolaid,
1:12:10>> they over drank in Ghana. I remember the
1:12:12first time I think we see him one of
1:12:14those world something he's speaking like
1:12:16ah no this guy this guy has for Ghana.
1:12:19Ghana is about to be Ghana is about to
1:12:21be this. Ghana is about to be that. Yes.
1:12:23Very personable. He's a very personable.
1:12:24Very personable.
1:12:26>> And then obviously the next eight years
1:12:27too came and went. What happened in
1:12:29Ghana? So, I'm going to be honest with
1:12:31you, and you know,
1:12:33>> I only have one life to live, [laughter]
1:12:35>> let me tell you. And I want to live it
1:12:37as authentically as possible.
1:12:38>> So, sometimes I know that I'm a peer
1:12:40person. I know that something is going
1:12:40to put me in trouble because people hear
1:12:42what they want to hear.
1:12:43>> But I feel like there always people who
1:12:44are actually paying attention
1:12:46>> and for those people, it's necessary to
1:12:48share.
1:12:49>> Yes.
1:12:50>> Now, one of I'm going to I'm going to
1:12:52confess I'm going to declare my
1:12:53conflict. [laughter]
1:12:54>> Yeah.
1:12:55>> Unlike Bhari.
1:12:56>> Yeah.
1:12:57The Akuad family has been personally
1:13:01gracious
1:13:02>> and kind.
1:13:03>> Yeah. [laughter]
1:13:04>> The the president of Ghana when he
1:13:06became president, he came and gave the
1:13:07keynote
1:13:08>> at the the future awards the year
1:13:10aftering
1:13:11>> because he was that thankful for the
1:13:12work that we did. [clears throat]
1:13:14>> So it's going to be very difficult for
1:13:15me to be as unvarnished.
1:13:17>> Yeah.
1:13:18>> As I am with other people because I
1:13:19treasure relationships and I've been
1:13:20kind to you.
1:13:21>> So So let's not talk about the
1:13:22president. Let's talk about the
1:13:23campaign.
1:13:24>> The campaign. So I honestly don't know
1:13:26what happened in Ghana.
1:13:27>> Yeah.
1:13:28>> And [laughter] it's easier for me with
1:13:30Nigeria because I'm a Nigerian so I
1:13:31understand when I hear that a minister
1:13:34has been arrested in [laughter] the US
1:13:36and he's a minister that I knew. I don't
1:13:39understand [clears throat]
1:13:41and like I don't know and these people
1:13:43were bright the bright the Akuad
1:13:46government had some of the brightest
1:13:48people from across the world that were
1:13:49Ghanaian
1:13:51it intellectuals
1:13:52>> and they really cared about Ghana at
1:13:54least during the campaign as far as I
1:13:56knew
1:13:57>> I don't know how it ended up being seen
1:14:00so catastrophically
1:14:02>> especially on the economy
1:14:05>> which was supposed to be
1:14:06>> the strongest suit of this incoming
1:14:08administration
1:14:10>> and it had everything going for it. It
1:14:12had a local audience. It was passionate.
1:14:14Had an international audience. You guys
1:14:20>> so there was everybody was rooting for
1:14:22it and
1:14:23>> it was if it was that people if there
1:14:25assessment of history that oh it wasn't
1:14:26as great as we thought there went below
1:14:30>> the expectation. So I don't know
1:14:33honestly when I think about my
1:14:35[laughter] life I really think about
1:14:37that I honestly don't know I think that
1:14:40maybe the closest I've come to
1:14:43>> is that sometimes we think we are so
1:14:45better than the so-called bad guys
1:14:48>> that we don't have the humility of
1:14:49really checking ourselves
1:14:52>> you know
1:14:52>> I like that
1:14:53>> I think so
1:14:54>> you know it's funny because like I said
1:14:57year of return we we participated in
1:14:59that
1:15:00>> and I reflect I think What all these
1:15:02things as somebody who reads what it
1:15:03does to me as somebody who considers
1:15:05myself a builder is it makes me also be
1:15:07more humble.
1:15:07>> Humble.
1:15:08>> Yes.
1:15:08>> And it makes me realize that you would
1:15:10think that you would do it differently
1:15:12until you get in there. But also in that
1:15:14humility now it makes me seek out people
1:15:18who have scars.
1:15:20>> I can't I can't be like all the all the
1:15:23like yes you come in you're like this is
1:15:25what I want to do. I'm like cool. I want
1:15:27to see where you have bled first because
1:15:28in that bleeding as we're now making
1:15:30plans you now be saying okay I remember
1:15:32where it pained here I remember where it
1:15:34pained there I remember where pain there
1:15:36so I think for I make this joke it's
1:15:38like I feel like Nigeria just influenced
1:15:39them like [laughter]
1:15:40>> like at some point they're like okay
1:15:42what's our neighbor doing let's let's
1:15:44>> when we got into Ghana
1:15:46>> for first and for the first thing I do
1:15:48when I do any particular candies is
1:15:50focus grouping I don't really believe in
1:15:51polls I believe in focus groups focus
1:15:54groups you get the context you get the
1:15:55data you can really align things.
1:15:58>> And when we finished doing the focus
1:16:00group, when I we don't need to develop a
1:16:02new strategy,
1:16:03>> we literally carried the Bhari strategy,
1:16:06>> copy and paste
1:16:06>> and copied and pasted it,
1:16:08>> feckless president, all of those.
1:16:12>> It was and it wasn't a dishonest thing.
1:16:13It was honestly what the voters, what we
1:16:15felt was ground. So, you're right. It
1:16:18was just like
1:16:19>> Nigeria and Ghana were like twins
1:16:21>> in that election. You know, it's tragic
1:16:24for me how that ended up tragic.
1:16:27>> And it felt I don't, you know, again,
1:16:30>> maybe [snorts] I'm being naive, but I
1:16:32felt like
1:16:34>> his his star, which I I felt like he
1:16:38could have carried it. And then I don't
1:16:40know if that star also brought something
1:16:42into the situation, which is
1:16:45>> that come home to the diaspora, right?
1:16:48Um, I was there the first one, you know,
1:16:51um, you know, when they did it in 2018.
1:16:52And I remember
1:16:54>> I remember people crying, you know,
1:16:58African-Americans when they went to the,
1:17:00um, to the Cape Castle.
1:17:02>> Cape Castle. Yeah.
1:17:03>> And I remember the the energy they felt.
1:17:05There was this
1:17:06>> feeling of connection. Wakanda for real.
1:17:09I I remember them meeting, you know,
1:17:11different um kings in Ghana and how they
1:17:14felt
1:17:15>> um and they were
1:17:16>> they were excited, you know, and then it
1:17:18brought them to come and buy land and
1:17:20invest. I'm like, even in Nigeria, we
1:17:21haven't been able to do that.
1:17:23>> We have to be able to do it, you know,
1:17:24AS POWERFUL AS NIGERIA IS.
1:17:26>> Um
1:17:27>> so I I was like and I I remember meeting
1:17:29him and I was like, ah, [laughter] you
1:17:30know,
1:17:30>> let me say something I can say. It was
1:17:32not just about different presidents.
1:17:34>> People treat and this is Nigeria, isn't
1:17:36Nigeria,
1:17:37>> they do it a lot. We disrespect
1:17:38expertise.
1:17:39>> Yeah.
1:17:40>> To be like, so I've literally heard some
1:17:42people that worked in certain campaign
1:17:44say, "What did I do?" [laughter]
1:17:47I've heard it.
1:17:47>> Yeah.
1:17:48>> We disrespect expertise. We think that
1:17:49nothing happened. It's like anybody that
1:17:51disrespects the political machine of the
1:17:52current president and what it has done
1:17:54over 16 election 16 years is just
1:17:57doesn't know what they're saying. This
1:17:58is expertise. This is discipline,
1:18:00emotion.
1:18:01And often when we finish we think that
1:18:04communication is something for politics
1:18:07>> not for governance.
1:18:09>> We think that it is just an addition. No
1:18:12>> good communication can allow an a
1:18:14citizenry give you grace.
1:18:16>> Yeah.
1:18:17>> Can allow them reinterpret your actions
1:18:19in the best way possible.
1:18:21>> Now you know what I'm saying without me
1:18:23saying it.
1:18:24>> Zuran mani is an example.
1:18:25>> Exactly. Too many Niger too many African
1:18:28presidents
1:18:29>> and their political machines once they
1:18:31win
1:18:32>> they disregard the communication people
1:18:35>> they just think what do you even do now
1:18:39this one Ghana didn't think so but many
1:18:41of them think so
1:18:42>> but they many of them are uniformly in
1:18:45that trap of when they entering they
1:18:47think power is the end of it
1:18:48>> we've arrived
1:18:48>> we've arrived so they don't take
1:18:50strategic communication seriously now in
1:18:52some of these elections we just talked
1:18:53about
1:18:54>> that happened
1:18:56>> where people just disrespect it. Do you
1:18:58understand? And realize that even when
1:18:59you have goodwill, you have to calibrate
1:19:02it. Goodwill is like a sugar high.
1:19:05>> You know, people that are bringing in
1:19:06from across the world, they're not your
1:19:07family, they don't have an interest in
1:19:09continue to defend you after they've
1:19:11gone. If you don't give them the
1:19:12information, if you don't translate it
1:19:13in language you can understand.
1:19:15>> Strategic communication is not an
1:19:16appendage to governance.
1:19:18>> Yeah.
1:19:18>> It's fundamental.
1:19:20And the best presidents in Africa across
1:19:23the world know it. Mandela took look
1:19:26forget all the grandfather Mandela
1:19:29[laughter]
1:19:30>> political machinery. Mandela
1:19:33>> did not play.
1:19:34>> Yeah.
1:19:35>> With communication
1:19:36>> first stepped into a room. He had
1:19:37talking points.
1:19:38>> They had meetings. Makisal Sagal didn't
1:19:42play. These two in Sagal now both the
1:19:44one that is president and the one that
1:19:46is
1:19:47>> just been sent away. They understand
1:19:49communication. Thomas Sanka understand
1:19:51communication. Our friend in Bkina
1:19:57public.
1:19:59>> Exactly.
1:20:00>> Exactly. So, one of the challenges, it's
1:20:02not the real thing because we're talking
1:20:03about governance, perceived governance
1:20:05failures, but a disregard for
1:20:08communication leads to a reputation that
1:20:10you can't change after you leave office.
1:20:12>> Interesting. Actually,
1:20:15>> I want to go here cuz I'm I'm genuinely
1:20:17curious just based off of some data I
1:20:19was looking at, um, media and politics.
1:20:22>> Do you feel a Nigerian company in
1:20:24[clears throat] media
1:20:26>> can exit or do very well without
1:20:29>> genuinely interacting with politics?
1:20:32>> H like do well financially.
1:20:34>> Yeah. So, what I'm saying is like I
1:20:36won't call them names. [laughter]
1:20:39>> Yes.
1:20:39>> I won't call names. Um, but when I was
1:20:41doing some research, the chagi
1:20:43[laughter] frauds,
1:20:45>> it does a REALLY GOOD JOB FINDING all it
1:20:48does a great job. I'm not that
1:20:50pretending like I'm above [laughter] GP.
1:20:52Sometimes I see the thing and I'm like,
1:20:53damn.
1:20:55>> Where which DRAM
1:20:59asked your GP randomly without I
1:21:01pretended and I did it with CL. I
1:21:03pretend that tell me the estimated
1:21:05revenue of these 10 media companies
1:21:07including mine. Yeah,
1:21:09>> I have no I have no data in public and
1:21:12American. I'm a private company.
1:21:14>> It got it right.
1:21:15>> The ranges I knew I knew. So all the
1:21:17companies I knew kind of like how much
1:21:19their range was tragic got it right. So
1:21:22let's move.
1:21:22>> Oh okay. [laughter] That's interesting.
1:21:25So I'm curious is there a point where to
1:21:28survive going back to this thing you
1:21:30talked about media companies have to
1:21:32give into politics? is I want for the
1:21:35first time for us to have this honest
1:21:36conversation because a lot of people
1:21:38will say, "Oh, this media company is is
1:21:40this um this party, this one, this one."
1:21:42And I'm like, even I'll call this one
1:21:45because everyone knows this one, Linda
1:21:46Ki, right?
1:21:47>> People say things about it. I'm like,
1:21:49well, maybe that was the only way for
1:21:51her to survive. MAYBE THAT WAS AN EXIT
1:21:52because there lack of sponsorship and
1:21:54advertising like other places. So, I'm
1:21:56curious.
1:21:57>> But to even add some color so you can
1:21:58give answer, I think uh weekend does
1:22:00these media days and stuff, right? So I
1:22:02think one of them earlier this year he
1:22:04had channels TV there
1:22:06>> and then he now said I guess they asked
1:22:07him a question now said but didn't I
1:22:09give you guys land [laughter]
1:22:12yeah he said it out there so the reason
1:22:14why I'm saying this is
1:22:16>> in doing this show
1:22:17>> I think we've come to understand how
1:22:19much media in Nigeria is paid media
1:22:21versus earned media and [laughter] I I
1:22:24didn't think we realized how much
1:22:27>> it was paid versus like earned so can
1:22:29you just explain that for our audience
1:22:31from your perspective.
1:22:32>> So first and foremost, Linda can do no
1:22:34wrong in my eyes. So even whatever this
1:22:36like Linda is I can Linda is is a
1:22:38historic figure. I don't know whether
1:22:39she gets her flowers for how
1:22:42>> for how she committed to that vision and
1:22:43build something great. So I just want to
1:22:45use this I want to use the opportunity
1:22:46to plug my friend. She's incredible.
1:22:49>> Now
1:22:51you are right [laughter]
1:22:54>> and I don't even say this from a place
1:22:55of judgment. Yeah. See, in my own
1:22:56personal life, I always tell people that
1:22:58talk to any of my ex staff, anybody
1:23:00who's done business with me, in my own
1:23:01personal life, I hold myself to the
1:23:02highest ethical standards.
1:23:05>> It's difficult. And I challenge, you
1:23:06know, it's difficult to find out, oh,
1:23:07the people who have done business with
1:23:09me know, I've walked away from deals.
1:23:11I've said that's why sometimes what
1:23:13people do the bar say because of money.
1:23:15People who know inside like if these
1:23:17people knew. So, I hold myself to a
1:23:19standard not because of others, because
1:23:20of myself. I like myself. I want to like
1:23:22myself and I sleep at night.
1:23:23>> Yeah.
1:23:25But that doesn't mean that I don't give
1:23:27people grace
1:23:29>> because I understand.
1:23:30>> Yeah.
1:23:31>> So this is the first part of it. Too
1:23:34many Nigerian media owners of the old
1:23:36school I'm not I I understand why they
1:23:39do that. They went to schools with these
1:23:40guys. They went to K with these guys
1:23:41want to run a low margin business as if
1:23:43it's a high margin business.
1:23:45>> That means at the base of it the media
1:23:48globally
1:23:50is lower margin compared to many
1:23:52industries.
1:23:52>> Yeah.
1:23:53>> Many industries. some part of the media,
1:23:55at least media content, media owners,
1:23:58lower margin. So if you if you're going
1:23:59to take the same $1 million and put it
1:24:01in the New York Times or put it in
1:24:03Glacos Smith line, [laughter]
1:24:06you are better served putting it in
1:24:08Glacos Smith line
1:24:09>> than the New York Times. You must really
1:24:10love the media
1:24:11>> to put it.
1:24:12>> And if you notice all unlike other
1:24:14industries, all the media owners, the
1:24:16old school media owners in Nigeria were
1:24:17journalists themselves. Yeah.
1:24:18>> The biggest. So they love media. They
1:24:21were reporters, they were writers, they
1:24:23were all these things.
1:24:24They did this thing because they love
1:24:25it.
1:24:25>> Yeah.
1:24:26>> But then when I enter, they now got to
1:24:28the this this now got to the airport and
1:24:31the dollar in in St. Gro walks up to his
1:24:34private jets [laughter]
1:24:36and they walk up to commercial and it
1:24:39didn't seem fair.
1:24:42So they thought to themselves, how do we
1:24:44close this unfair competitive gap?
1:24:47>> And government patron, this is not a
1:24:48real thing. I'm obviously going
1:24:49speedballing. and government patronage
1:24:52knocked and walked into the
1:24:53conversation, joined the chat room.
1:24:54>> That's what has happened.
1:24:56>> Yeah.
1:24:57>> Um because they realized that it it
1:25:00wasn't fair how
1:25:03poorly media platforms had to do for
1:25:06those who wanted to ball
1:25:08>> and so they thought how do I pluck the
1:25:09gap and many of them realized that
1:25:11government patronage was going to do
1:25:13that.
1:25:13>> Yeah.
1:25:14>> Um there are models. So that's on the
1:25:18one hand
1:25:20and the second hand is that doesn't mean
1:25:22that that was the only option available.
1:25:24I use this as an example. Most people
1:25:26know everybody in I taught media and
1:25:29communication at the panelic university
1:25:30taught media across the world and I
1:25:33always use the example of punch
1:25:34newspapers. Punch newspapers is an is
1:25:36one of there are many exceptions but
1:25:37it's one of the exceptions. Um that
1:25:40decided okay this is how the system
1:25:41looks. I'm going to create uh system.
1:25:44I'm going to drive up um um what's it
1:25:47called? Circulation numbers. I'm going
1:25:49to do all these things. I'm going to
1:25:50reduce numbers. All of that. So, so it
1:25:52wasn't the only option available, but it
1:25:54was a tempting option available.
1:25:56>> Mhm.
1:25:56>> Now, it doesn't mean that any of them
1:25:58are necessarily immoral cuz sometimes
1:26:01they do it in a very ethical way and
1:26:03nobody that has worked in Nigerian
1:26:05telecoms or banking can say anything bad
1:26:08about what people in media have done.
1:26:09They all in the same WhatsApp group.
1:26:10>> Yeah. Yeah.
1:26:11>> So for instance, what happens sometimes
1:26:14is I don't know whe I don't know how I'm
1:26:16going to look this but I'm not I as you
1:26:18know I try not to attack particular
1:26:19people but
1:26:21>> for instance what a a politician would
1:26:23do is buy art space
1:26:26>> for four years [laughter]
1:26:28>> for four years.
1:26:29>> Yes.
1:26:32>> So the invoice will be
1:26:34>> four years.
1:26:34>> Four years at space. Now, of course, you
1:26:36can always mark do a markup for
1:26:39political communication. It's all legal.
1:26:42It's all ethical even, [laughter]
1:26:45you know. And then what that happens is
1:26:47that when you do that,
1:26:48>> Yeah.
1:26:49>> then whenever you want your opinion put
1:26:52in the public, then you can use the ad
1:26:54space that you supposedly bought.
1:26:57>> Yeah.
1:26:59>> There are two ways I look at that. One
1:27:00way is that every market decides the
1:27:04intuitive ways it's going to respond to
1:27:06pricing and all of that.
1:27:08>> It's bad if it's in a corrupt system
1:27:10like ours. So we don't really know where
1:27:12does competitive pricing end
1:27:14>> and where does just good old corruption
1:27:17[laughter]
1:27:17>> start from. But that's what's happen. So
1:27:20that's what's happening. So what's
1:27:21happening is that individual actors some
1:27:23of them high integrity actors are now
1:27:26navigating these questions. Plus the
1:27:29idea that media owners the old school
1:27:32know that they have to have enough money
1:27:36in case they are shut down.
1:27:38>> They have to understand that a lot of
1:27:40media tell magazine was the magazine one
1:27:43of the magazines that ushered in our
1:27:44democracy. When last did you read
1:27:46magazine? When last did you see
1:27:48magazine? When last did you hear
1:27:49magazine spoken about? Exactly. You can
1:27:52only be prescribed so long by the
1:27:54government before you can develop a
1:27:57business model that can outrank
1:27:59adversity. So many of our media owners
1:28:02learned in the crossable of the min of
1:28:04the military and a dictatorship that you
1:28:06need to have a lot of cash flow.
1:28:09>> Yeah.
1:28:10>> That these citizens, these readers are
1:28:12not going to go on the streets and
1:28:14protest
1:28:16when you are shut down for saying the
1:28:18truth.
1:28:20And so when you have that kind of a
1:28:24miasma [laughter] I'm speaking a lot of
1:28:25big words today
1:28:27you now it's now unfortunately left to
1:28:29the individual ethical guidelines.
1:28:34>> So I tell people that the Nigerian
1:28:35journalism code doesn't say anything
1:28:36about journalists not being in PR.
1:28:39>> So when you come and say it's unethical
1:28:41and how is unethical there's literally
1:28:43the ethical code doesn't it it doesn't
1:28:45happen in America. It doesn't happen in
1:28:47South Africa. It doesn't happen. But
1:28:49here, so what happens is that because of
1:28:51the collapse of different structures,
1:28:53media owners have found themselves in a
1:28:55jungle
1:28:56>> where they have to now use their own
1:28:58personal moral compass to determine. So
1:29:00sometimes it looks like patronage.
1:29:03>> Yeah.
1:29:03>> Sometimes it is not patronage. It's
1:29:05competitive pricing. Sometimes it's
1:29:07innovative ways of keeping the
1:29:09government at bay while surviving.
1:29:13And none anybody that you accuse of that
1:29:16and most of them do excellent journalism
1:29:18but any of them that you accuse of that
1:29:20you have to come up with an alternative
1:29:22model. You have next newspapers.
1:29:25>> I didn't see you on the streets
1:29:26protesting when you shut down. So if
1:29:29you're not going to not you I mean
1:29:32if somebody has a different model
1:29:35>> they can share. Now we were lucky my
1:29:38sets our sets that the internet came.
1:29:42>> Yeah. M
1:29:43>> because if not we would have to have
1:29:45answered the same ethical questions.
1:29:46>> Yeah,
1:29:47>> we would have to answer the same ethical
1:29:48questions and we'd have fallen on our
1:29:49own ethical
1:29:51>> compasses.
1:29:52>> Compasses the internet K made it easier.
1:29:54So you can now point confidently to a
1:29:55lot of models that don't require that.
1:29:57You can point to a lot of creator models
1:29:59that don't do that. You can point to big
1:30:01cabal media. You can point to so we are
1:30:03lucky that and that's why people are
1:30:05talking down to down globalism down
1:30:08capitalism like Nigerian should not join
1:30:10them. No saying let's stay capitalism
1:30:13because capitalism and globalism is
1:30:16responsible for our entire new media
1:30:18industry.
1:30:19>> If it was depending on us
1:30:21>> with our politics and our economics and
1:30:24no single investor want to invest in
1:30:26media would have been gone.
1:30:28>> You know how every week we sit down with
1:30:30people who've done it, people who've
1:30:31built, people who've led movements,
1:30:33people who've created culture. What if
1:30:35you could do more than just listen to
1:30:36them? That is why we built Convoy by
1:30:38Afropolitan. On Convo, you're able to
1:30:41book one-on-one video calls with in-
1:30:43demand experts from Africa and the
1:30:45diaspora. Go to convo.vip
1:30:48to get access to your next mentor
1:30:50because sometimes one convo can change
1:30:52your entire path. So, I know the
1:30:54Afropolitan fam wants to know, okay,
1:30:56what does Chica and Etch do outside the
1:30:59couch, right? Sometimes we get to meet
1:31:01y'all in person, but a lot of y'all have
1:31:03a lot of questions around what do me do
1:31:06dayto-day? How do we manage our life?
1:31:08Some people even comment and say, "Oh, I
1:31:10didn't know they're married." So, we
1:31:12have a solution for that. I want y'all
1:31:14to follow us on Snapchat. And we're
1:31:16going to put down individually how you
1:31:18can follow me, Chica, and Etch on
1:31:20Snapchat. So, you get closer to us. You
1:31:23get to know what we're doing when we
1:31:24travel. You know, a lot of times we go
1:31:26to New York and LA to even record these
1:31:28episodes and really just get a chance to
1:31:30see behind the scenes. So, I want you to
1:31:32follow us on Snapchat. I saw a creator
1:31:34who recently talked about sponsorship in
1:31:37Nigeria.
1:31:38>> Um, and I'm I'm curious because you I
1:31:41think you've worked with a lot of the
1:31:42brands, so you have an idea. So, my
1:31:45challenge right now with this new set
1:31:47and I don't know if it's a it's a lack
1:31:49of education
1:31:51>> is so I play in as a US influencer. I've
1:31:54done brand deals, right? I'm very aware
1:31:56>> of course.
1:31:57>> Where are my prices?
1:31:58>> Yes. Yes. [laughter] Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
1:32:02in Nigeria.
1:32:03>> They enter through the airports.
1:32:06[laughter]
1:32:08>> Yes. Yes.
1:32:09>> Going like this. So, I'm curious. Number
1:32:12one, are there creators and media
1:32:15companies being paid
1:32:17>> somewhat at the same level as us
1:32:20creators? I'm saying somewhat.
1:32:21>> Somewhat. Yes. I thank you for that cuz
1:32:22I say somewhat.
1:32:23>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Somewhat.
1:32:25>> Or is it that
1:32:28>> we still have a long way to go for that
1:32:30model? because I don't know if people
1:32:32can solely depend on [clears throat]
1:32:34brand partnerships which is why people
1:32:37start doing paid media.
1:32:38>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Interestingly enough,
1:32:40my latest Substack post is called No One
1:32:42Ow. I open it up this morning and I'm
1:32:45answering specifically this question.
1:32:47You know,
1:32:47>> put the link up too.
1:32:48>> It was fantastic and I'm explaining why
1:32:50you cannot charge the same thing as they
1:32:51charge in LA because first and foremost,
1:32:53the entire net worth I think of Apple or
1:32:56their last year's revenue is more than
1:32:57entire GDP. [laughter]
1:32:59>> So, let's just start from there. Yeah.
1:33:00Yeah.
1:33:01>> You cannot. So Apple can afford to pay
1:33:03you more than Nigeria. [laughter]
1:33:05>> So there's that.
1:33:06>> Um, yes.
1:33:08>> A small sliver. So for instance,
1:33:11>> Linda Ki could match any blog globally
1:33:14at a time.
1:33:15>> Wait, still today?
1:33:17>> Maybe today possibly at the time.
1:33:19[laughter]
1:33:19>> Oh, at time people are still going to
1:33:21>> We now because web is making less money
1:33:23generally could but that's because Lindi
1:33:26was the number one in the market.
1:33:28>> Yeah.
1:33:28>> And it's still number one when it comes
1:33:30to blogs
1:33:31>> and so she sucked all of the
1:33:33>> the energy
1:33:34>> energy resources for web
1:33:37>> both Google and
1:33:38>> the ones that came from brands
1:33:40>> in this economy for instance almost all
1:33:42the top 12 in um YouTube film making and
1:33:46matching their counterparts across the
1:33:48world
1:33:49>> for free I can tell you and I can say it
1:33:51because it's a good thing so I can plug
1:33:53my friends Oman is killing it
1:33:55>> y
1:33:55>> rose is killing it those are the ones
1:33:57you know you've not heard about
1:34:00he's the OG of YouTube film making.
1:34:03>> He has three different channels.
1:34:06>> All of them are killing it.
1:34:08>> These people are making they can be
1:34:10making up to a million dollars per year
1:34:11on one channel.
1:34:12>> Yeah.
1:34:13>> Uch Nancy and her sisters winners.
1:34:17Morisan
1:34:18TV killing it. So the YouTube film
1:34:22makers.
1:34:23>> Yeah. specifically
1:34:24>> currently now
1:34:25>> can match
1:34:27>> in terms of gross profits
1:34:29>> at the very least counterparts across
1:34:31the world for the number of reasons.
1:34:32One, nobody across the world makes films
1:34:35with the cost of [laughter] sales that
1:34:36we do.
1:34:38>> So you're saying it's cheaper here, not
1:34:40even the word.
1:34:41>> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter]
1:34:41>> It is cheapest
1:34:44>> but but incidentally of the actors get
1:34:47paid more per unit than they were paid
1:34:49for
1:34:49>> for normal. In fact, you know how the
1:34:52rest of the industry we are tal but tal
1:34:55actors love talisportion.
1:34:58It happens with many the YouTube
1:35:01filmmaker because they have freed up
1:35:03>> money so they can spoil the actors.
1:35:06>> Um so because and then most of the
1:35:09Nollywood films are watched by the
1:35:12>> diaspora. Yeah.
1:35:13>> So the money is high quality currency.
1:35:16So that's why so you're getting the best
1:35:17of expenses and the best of revenue. So,
1:35:20so there are people angel in his prime
1:35:23possibly today
1:35:25>> wiping the floor
1:35:26>> with it
1:35:27>> and so yes it's possible it's just rare
1:35:30>> it's just not like I'm collect we have
1:35:32do you know how many creators we have
1:35:34>> too [laughter] many
1:35:37elevation program and we don't have
1:35:40money there's no lower barrier to entry
1:35:43everybody can be a content creator from
1:35:45anywhere and so most too many a lot of
1:35:48every day I'm just like which one is
1:35:49this one they give Like I don't know if
1:35:50you guys do this, but we have a master
1:35:51list for possible guests and every I'm
1:35:53looking at I'm seeing a new person like
1:35:54who is that one? 1.3 million Tik Tok
1:35:56followers. I'm like what?
1:35:58>> So we have so many creators because we
1:36:00have so much of a population
1:36:02>> the mass of them like when people say oh
1:36:04Afro beat is doing well worldwide. I say
1:36:05you're talking about David do Whis Kid
1:36:07>> Boner Boy Fire Boy it's not really.
1:36:10There are so many others
1:36:12>> that are streaming. So what's happen the
1:36:14winners when they win they really win.
1:36:17>> It's the same thing. So you have to be a
1:36:18winner. You have to be a winner. You're
1:36:21the first mover, first choice. So that's
1:36:24but it's so if you win,
1:36:26>> it is possible to make that. But for the
1:36:28rest of the people,
1:36:29>> they're cosplaying it.
1:36:30>> Yeah.
1:36:31>> And you have to also cosplay because the
1:36:33brands respond to
1:36:34>> cosplay. [laughter]
1:36:37>> Is that why every time there's a bed,
1:36:38there's a full photo shoot?
1:36:40>> Exactly. [laughter]
1:36:42So that's what's happening. And it's
1:36:45unfortunate that people have to that's
1:36:46why you know I announced the fund last
1:36:48year. So I'm looking for those models
1:36:50that don't depend on brands because
1:36:51that's not sustainable.
1:36:53>> But let's talk about the fund. I I want
1:36:54to I was curious about that. I'm curious
1:36:56how did you start it? Why like
1:36:59>> but also the fund because before we even
1:37:01leave here you know with um interview
1:37:03talk show
1:37:05>> um it's behind a paid wall. Yes.
1:37:07>> Can you talk a little bit about the
1:37:09decision to put it behind a paid wall
1:37:11cuz obviously you see you've seen these
1:37:12numbers and there's no reason to that
1:37:14you're a
1:37:15>> winner. [laughter]
1:37:20So, so the decision behind that and the
1:37:22thought process behind that as well talk
1:37:25about the fun.
1:37:26>> I'll start from there.
1:37:27>> So, it was an accidental. It was an
1:37:29emergent strategy thing.
1:37:31>> I thought my show was going to fail.
1:37:32>> Yeah. Really?
1:37:33>> I'm telling you there's no Look, anybody
1:37:35who was around me, go and ask them. My
1:37:36long time producation William asked them
1:37:38>> why why why
1:37:39>> because people were watching skits and
1:37:41action films [laughter]
1:37:42and I'm coming talk about depression
1:37:44divorce
1:37:46>> anxiety I always thought Nigerians were
1:37:48going to be like
1:37:49>> get the [laughter]
1:37:51girl
1:37:52>> honestly I recorded the first step
1:37:54season in 2018 I didn't release it until
1:37:562020
1:37:58>> that's how much I was afraid so I didn't
1:38:00put it on YouTube because I thought it's
1:38:01you know YouTube I just I don't want to
1:38:03put on my sh 73 views [laughter] like
1:38:05three views.
1:38:08>> Yes. And then my show was so people
1:38:09don't know because I don't talk a lot
1:38:10about it. My show is one of the most
1:38:11syndicated on the continent. It's on
1:38:13channel on TV.
1:38:17[screaming]
1:38:17>> Yes. Because they have their audience.
1:38:20I'm trying to build a detailed audience
1:38:22>> and so when I so I was like using that
1:38:24as my bragging right. Why you not on
1:38:26YouTube? No, it's because I'm on TV.
1:38:27>> I'm a talk show not podcast [laughter]
1:38:29>> but underneath is like so you can't
1:38:31disgrace me on this. So I didn't put my
1:38:33show on YouTube really for the first
1:38:34year. Yeah.
1:38:36>> And then what had happened was that a
1:38:38guest of mine had come on the show
1:38:39Pamela and she talked about putting her
1:38:40film behind the pay wall on Vimeo or
1:38:42whatever on website. Yes. And so I
1:38:45thought hm this really say we can't find
1:38:48your show online. I thought online put
1:38:50it online so we can watch okay I can put
1:38:52it on Vimeo.
1:38:53>> And when they asked me I just tell them
1:38:54go and watch. I thought nobody was going
1:38:55to pay for it.
1:38:57>> I thought nobody just it was just an
1:38:59answer
1:39:00>> to Chud and Pamela had done it. That's
1:39:02what that's how the Vimeo strategy came
1:39:04out because it was Vimeo we started
1:39:05using at first before we went to our own
1:39:07URL and so and then I just told my and I
1:39:10said I was going to build a tech
1:39:11company. I knew that one of the biggest
1:39:12messes for media companies is to try and
1:39:14build tech.
1:39:15>> Yeah.
1:39:15>> So I'm like I'm not building my website.
1:39:17I'm not handing a back end. I remember
1:39:18having a call with Jason J. said he said
1:39:20no matter tell you to do website don't.
1:39:23[laughter] So I'm like I didn't do
1:39:26the best advice he g
1:39:29>> and so I didn't do I put it on VO. I
1:39:31thought it was never going to work.
1:39:32Nobody was going and Vmail charges you
1:39:34based on who subscribes. I was there was
1:39:35no cost of sales for this. No cost.
1:39:38>> Then my tech lead me came and tell me
1:39:42comes and tells me CJ we have gotten
1:39:44$1,000 first month. [laughter]
1:39:48The whole set of brand sponsorship
1:39:51>> the total amount we had gotten was 3
1:39:53million [laughter]
1:39:56>> and it was paid decremented. So if you
1:39:57breed it over 2 years it actually comes
1:39:59to about 1.5.
1:40:00>> Yeah. So in one month,000
1:40:02>> we matched almost what we were earning
1:40:04for 2 years from brands and because when
1:40:06I came in because of you know I wasn't a
1:40:08fresh face so I didn't want to do and
1:40:10there's nothing wrong with it. We all
1:40:11have to build our own media model. I
1:40:12didn't want to do paid guests.
1:40:14>> I don't want to do all of those things
1:40:15at the time.
1:40:16>> So I didn't I wanted to do this thing
1:40:18for my heart and so 1 month I'm like how
1:40:21I'm going to die here. [laughter]
1:40:22>> So everything became paid.
1:40:24>> Yeah.
1:40:24>> I'm like I'm not putting my free
1:40:25podcast. I'm like which platform Spotify
1:40:28didn't have a pay. That's I wasn't on
1:40:29Spotify. I'm not on Spotify essentially
1:40:31because I'm on Apple Premium.
1:40:32>> Yeah.
1:40:33>> I'm like even if it's only $500 we make
1:40:35for Apple Premium.
1:40:36>> That $500 you know how many salaries you
1:40:37can pay.
1:40:39>> So that's what happened. That's how that
1:40:40strategy emerged.
1:40:42>> Then I realized two things that YouTube
1:40:44was temperamental as you know
1:40:46>> you do something you like this show is
1:40:47going to this episode is going to blow.
1:40:49>> It doesn't blow.
1:40:50>> It doesn't blow. So my YouTube revenue
1:40:52would go when I check him on YouTube off
1:40:55my video revenue would stay
1:40:56>> consistent. Yeah.
1:40:59this what all them Joe Rogan and Donald
1:41:00Trump enjoy with it doesn't matter who's
1:41:02counseling you
1:41:03>> if your people stay with you then you
1:41:06win so that's why I came up with that
1:41:08and I realized that if I can build this
1:41:10and I'm not going so because I I want
1:41:12people to to learn
1:41:14>> it hasn't been all rosy it has we've
1:41:17it's been the best model we've had
1:41:19>> it's makes the show profitable
1:41:21>> highly profit but
1:41:23>> we've struggled but even with the
1:41:25struggle [laughter]
1:41:26>> I wouldn't choose another over it. The
1:41:28fact that I can know how much my subs my
1:41:31annual subscribers, my monthly subs are
1:41:33going to pay and I can plan based on it.
1:41:35>> So that's what happened and I learned
1:41:37how freeing that can be. It also means
1:41:39that I don't even have to hustle. So
1:41:41sometimes because the show gets viral a
1:41:43lot you know and some before I used to
1:41:45say people say oh it does so when I
1:41:48interview Bobriski for said it was
1:41:50because I wanted to make money on
1:41:52YouTube and I'm like my subscribers have
1:41:55women who have four children in Canada
1:41:58>> and business women you know when I look
1:42:00at my back and I see people that are
1:42:01subscribing I'm like maybe I should mail
1:42:03them and ask them for sponsorship
1:42:04[gasps]
1:42:05>> and they don't care about Bob Brriski
1:42:06the way that the mass audience cares
1:42:08>> they care at one time I had an interview
1:42:10with my auntie B. I told her and it was
1:42:12another big celebrity and I'm like
1:42:14auntie look at the back end. You want
1:42:15more subscribers for me
1:42:17>> than these people.
1:42:18>> So I'm like so it so it made me not have
1:42:21to pander
1:42:23>> audience capture because my my um um my
1:42:27my mathematics didn't depend on
1:42:29virality. So incredible model. I highly
1:42:31recommend it. Now because of that
1:42:33success and it's still on till date if
1:42:35it doesn't I always say this how you
1:42:36know that something is not working in
1:42:37Nigeria. Somebody does something the
1:42:39first time and says it succeeds. But
1:42:40let's not do it again.
1:42:43It didn't work. [laughter] That's just a
1:42:45good test. Of course, it doesn't work
1:42:46all the time. So, if it wasn't working,
1:42:48I'll be doing it for 5 years now.
1:42:50>> So, because of that, when I see young
1:42:52creators coming into the space and
1:42:55they're waiting for brands, I feel sorry
1:42:57for them
1:42:58>> because the brands are temperamental and
1:43:01you have to massage the ego of the brand
1:43:03manager.
1:43:03>> Yeah.
1:43:05and Nigerian brand managers [laughter]
1:43:08many of them you know are my mentees
1:43:12but they say something like getting into
1:43:13a store when they become brand manager
1:43:15>> DJ NPC [laughter]
1:43:17amount of massaging of ego and I know
1:43:19it's when people are asking them for
1:43:20money
1:43:21>> yeah of course
1:43:22>> and so I'm like you don't want to build
1:43:24your destiny
1:43:26>> based on a brand manager it doesn't mean
1:43:27you should say no I've said no for three
1:43:29years until this year
1:43:30>> said no to and I stopped talking to
1:43:32brands
1:43:32>> the only reason I talking about now is
1:43:34My show is now under Fort Millland and
1:43:36Fort Mill has a new CEO and he's great
1:43:38at that. I'm like, well, it's your
1:43:40company what you like. But after one
1:43:42brand manager [laughter]
1:43:44>> showed me this, I'm your I'M YOUR FAN.
1:43:47SEND ME A PROPOSAL. Then took me on a
1:43:50run around.
1:43:50>> I looking at my life and I look at my
1:43:52life. I should I said I should have I
1:43:53should have become a minister.
1:43:55[laughter]
1:43:56>> I should
1:43:58because of that I stopped talking to
1:43:59brands. I just thought this doesn't make
1:44:00sense. So when I see young people doing
1:44:02that, I'm like
1:44:03>> you're losing a lot of power.
1:44:04>> Yeah.
1:44:05>> Waiting for the brands
1:44:06>> and leverage. for a lot of leverage.
1:44:09Pella doesn't do this.
1:44:11>> You say people say anything about Pella.
1:44:12I mean you it was here that the whole
1:44:14thing exploded from now, you know. I'm
1:44:16just looking at one of my one of the
1:44:17creators responded to that an eloquent
1:44:19defense of his generation coming out
1:44:21next week.
1:44:21>> And I'm just like Pella doesn't do that.
1:44:24Gage doesn't do that. You know, all
1:44:26these guys and you don't understand what
1:44:28they're doing. They juroring it.
1:44:30>> Yeah.
1:44:30>> They're creating a pipeline that is
1:44:32independent of the gatekeepers.
1:44:34>> Yeah. You know there so if and it's
1:44:37possible it just requires a level of
1:44:40focus
1:44:42that's so down it requires tire you know
1:44:45level of focus it requires Steven and
1:44:47Duku level of focus it requires Mike
1:44:49Angel level of focus but these are
1:44:50people that brand they don't when brand
1:44:52monies come they like no I don't want
1:44:53brand money no it means that the brand
1:44:54monies come on their own terms
1:44:56>> and with or without the brand monies
1:44:58they have the monies rolling in so for
1:45:01creators
1:45:02>> and it's not easy like I said I already
1:45:03said you know but Most of them don't
1:45:05have the discipline
1:45:07>> to stick with a model that doesn't give
1:45:09quick wins.
1:45:10>> Interesting.
1:45:11>> So eventually they give up.
1:45:13>> You understand? Because they're like and
1:45:15then a brand can just give you the $5
1:45:16million that he takes you videos, you
1:45:18optimize, you change your thumbnail, you
1:45:19do this. You're like, can I just wear
1:45:21clothes and be paid? So that's the
1:45:24challenge. So I set up the fund
1:45:26>> because I think that those creators,
1:45:29imagine if we had an industry of
1:45:31harmonies with kadis and Mac angels.
1:45:33>> Yeah. And it's possible
1:45:35>> because the mathematics is there. We
1:45:37have the audience, we have the whatever
1:45:40we need to think about the mathematics a
1:45:41bit differently, you know, and that's
1:45:43why I set up the fund and how the fund
1:45:44was set up. Literally, I was about to
1:45:45buy new stock,
1:45:47>> you know, on shop.
1:45:48>> Nvidia, I've been hearing a lot of noise
1:45:50about Nvidia. And I thought, oh my god,
1:45:51I've missed another I've missed another
1:45:53cycle cuz like they always say, if
1:45:54you're hearing about it,
1:45:56>> it's too late. [laughter]
1:45:57>> It's too late. So, even if it's too late
1:45:59now, some people have heard about it.
1:46:01And I just thought, but where this is
1:46:02literally in my in my apartment in
1:46:04London and like
1:46:06>> but where can I have an where can I have
1:46:07an advantage
1:46:08>> comparative advantage comp all the
1:46:10people I had predicted were going to be
1:46:12the winners
1:46:13>> in the creative in the creator industry
1:46:16from 2020 including how you know by the
1:46:19way have won the way I thought they were
1:46:21going to win.
1:46:22>> Interesting. [laughter]
1:46:23If you had invested in them back then,
1:46:25>> if I had invested in them back then,
1:46:28>> we will be talking something different
1:46:29now and and also I was thinking about
1:46:31how to go off operations. I'm I've done
1:46:3320 years of this. I'm not doing again.
1:46:35>> And so that's why that's how the fund
1:46:36came about. I said, "Okay, I should go
1:46:37and find this
1:46:39>> this
1:46:41people who
1:46:42>> so this I'm saying is a thesis. If I
1:46:44truly believe in the thesis, then I
1:46:46should put my money where my mouth is."
1:46:48And that's how the Fort Millland fund
1:46:49emerged. And and the thing is people
1:46:50don't realize cuz you know going back to
1:46:52the conversion around the brand managers
1:46:54right you always say to yourself that
1:46:57>> if Nigeria if there was more oxygen if
1:47:00people were much more balanced and
1:47:02nourished you would really be able to
1:47:05nourish his nourishment right because
1:47:07it's like you've seen I remember at one
1:47:10time I don't know if Ty knows this but I
1:47:12remember I was driving around Leki at
1:47:13some point this was maybe 2021
1:47:17or 2020
1:47:18>> and I saw Tio come down from a thing
1:47:20with his his crew, right?
1:47:22>> The sun that was shining that day.
1:47:24>> Yes. Yes.
1:47:25>> You nobody needed to be outside. And I
1:47:27was just imagine just saying to myself
1:47:28like Ty is out here
1:47:30>> doing this thing grinding. And then you
1:47:32now say to yourself, why wouldn't you
1:47:34bet on somebody like this? Because as
1:47:36long as he has great health, as long as
1:47:38he's he's he will
1:47:40>> he's following his passion, he will win.
1:47:41>> He will win. Like I should have
1:47:42invested. You know, Steven.
1:47:44>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He does the real
1:47:45estate.
1:47:46>> Watching 2021. I looked at his page and
1:47:49this guy's going to blow.
1:47:51>> I should have given him some money.
1:47:52[laughter]
1:47:54>> Just hold
1:47:56two channels.
1:47:58>> His audience is
1:48:00>> global, so the income is global, you
1:48:04know, and Stephen is such a fantastic
1:48:06businessman and I like talking about
1:48:07creators. Look, I love creators. I like
1:48:08that we can give the middle finger to
1:48:10the system and just go build our things.
1:48:13Like sometimes I see a chick's post and
1:48:15then she ble from LinkedIn and she's
1:48:16like, "Go and read the rest of stuff
1:48:17back." I'm like, "THAT'S [laughter] MY
1:48:18SISTER. THAT'S MY SISTER. THAT'S MY
1:48:19SISTER.
1:48:21PAY FOR THAT THING." [laughter] I'M
1:48:23TELLING YOU BECAUSE IF you can make that
1:48:24work, and you're already making it work,
1:48:26but if you grow that and blow that up,
1:48:28imagine people who are drawn to your
1:48:30particular voice.
1:48:31>> And if we can, it's like, again, I hate
1:48:33using fintech cuz it's not a cliche,
1:48:35>> but if we can think about our sector,
1:48:37>> the way that those guys think about
1:48:39their ecosystem,
1:48:40>> then it can be a real thing. So you say
1:48:43and you can look at talent and see what
1:48:45they can become and help them. You see
1:48:47now with these creators you're thinking
1:48:49thinking look think of it as a business
1:48:50and like what we what I'm investing is
1:48:52IP. So now I want you just collect your
1:48:54money back. So Nigeria like no just give
1:48:57us money we'll give you the profit. I'm
1:48:58like who is who is doing profit to you?
1:48:59You cannot have a business [laughter]
1:49:02I'm not hungry. I want to own the IP
1:49:06>> because then we can sell it to Canal
1:49:08Plus and then we can sell it and then we
1:49:09can sell. So even they don't realize how
1:49:12valuable their IP is. The person that
1:49:15did living in Bondi didn't think that
1:49:17play studio is going to come in 20 years
1:49:19and be like I want to get the rights.
1:49:21>> They were trying to sell their cassette.
1:49:22You know the original story of they were
1:49:24not thinking that oh Netflix is going to
1:49:26come to Nigeria. No
1:49:27>> but if somebody had seen it
1:49:30>> and showed them
1:49:31>> it would have been a different story you
1:49:33know. And so this we are doing the same
1:49:35thing because of poverty.
1:49:37>> We're selling away our rights.
1:49:41>> We're not aggregating it. We are not
1:49:42systemizing it. We don't even have a
1:49:44library. The content creators don't have
1:49:45their library.
1:49:46>> They don't have backup.
1:49:48>> Basic backup drive.
1:49:50>> Yeah. Catalog
1:49:51>> for all the content I have created on
1:49:53Instagram.
1:49:54>> Don't have it.
1:49:55>> Not saved in the cloud.
1:49:57>> So tomorrow somebody's like, "Oh, I have
1:49:58a kid's channel. You are, you know, Gen
1:50:00Z influencer. I want to do this.
1:50:01>> I want a license. Can't
1:50:04>> there was a content you did went viral
1:50:05want to use that want to get that as IP
1:50:07and develop a film out of it can't
1:50:10>> publishers don't have the original and
1:50:12whatever for some books from it's a less
1:50:14so I'm like I don't want to be coming
1:50:16like I was in this team one now I don't
1:50:18want to come back in 7 years I say ah
1:50:20>> I saw this person I thought was going to
1:50:21blow that's why and it can happen if we
1:50:24take this as seriously as banking has
1:50:26taken theirs
1:50:27>> no I mean there's nothing you've said
1:50:28here that is not our own thesis so we're
1:50:30basically we're wasting [laughter]
1:50:31we're wasting
1:50:33I want to lean into this because what I
1:50:35just flashed in my mind was um
1:50:39>> was it I don't know if it was for I
1:50:41don't think it was Forbes um I know it
1:50:43was a media property I can't think of
1:50:45the name right now but they were naming
1:50:46the top it was Forbes
1:50:48>> so I think for the first time Forbes
1:50:50announced the top maybe 20 30 podcasters
1:50:54globally right
1:50:55>> right
1:50:56>> um and people were shocked
1:50:58>> by the numbers they were shocked yeah
1:51:01they were
1:51:01>> shocked Yeah.
1:51:04>> I said and you know this is what trended
1:51:06all across Twitter and threads I didn't
1:51:08see any black people. [clears throat]
1:51:11>> Yeah.
1:51:11>> So the only black person
1:51:14>> I saw
1:51:15>> Steven Barlet right
1:51:17>> half you know he's Nigerian he's on a
1:51:19good day he may claim it. [laughter]
1:51:25>> STEVEN STEVEN IS MY Nigerian brother. I
1:51:28don't KNOW WHAT SHE SAID BUT THAT'S
1:51:30NIGERIAN. [laughter]
1:51:30NIGERIAN I'VE EVER MET. BOTH NIGERIANS
1:51:32ARE SCREAMING to the top DOWN NIGERIAN.
1:51:34HE'S THE QUIETEST ONE I'VE MET. SO
1:51:35BETWEEN HIM AND CHARLEMAGNE, RIGHT? And
1:51:37I would say
1:51:38>> Charlemagne reminds me of you in certain
1:51:40ways as far as understanding media and
1:51:42and owning it and building things around
1:51:45it, right? So and that's probably why he
1:51:47was on the list.
1:51:48>> But it was it was quite thin.
1:51:51>> And so I'm I'm curious, you know, I
1:51:53think,
1:51:55>> you know, and it's not even because of
1:51:56what we're doing. I've been podcasting
1:51:58for a long time, right? This is just now
1:51:59like
1:52:00>> maybe podcast. YEAH, I'VE BEEN
1:52:02PODCASTING. You know, I'm curious what
1:52:05do you see in that landscape? Because
1:52:07interestingly enough, when I was looking
1:52:08at the data recently,
1:52:10>> it was saying that more Nigerians listen
1:52:13to podcasts than Americans.
1:52:15>> H really? I didn't know that. I
1:52:16>> didn't know that either.
1:52:18>> I did not know that either. And I said
1:52:20this is very interesting and I I'll even
1:52:22give another layer
1:52:24>> um you know recent story um for you to
1:52:26really reflect on and and then answer is
1:52:29>> so when we were coming back to Lagos
1:52:31recently um I was um we were looking for
1:52:34our bags. It was just taking 10 years,
1:52:36you know, and eventually I sat down on
1:52:39the conveyor belt, right? So an
1:52:41immigration officer walked up to me,
1:52:44[laughter] right? I was just like, "Oh
1:52:46god, like this bag, this bag, where is
1:52:49it?"
1:52:49>> So eventually this immigration officer,
1:52:51he came up to me. So I'm THINKING IN MY
1:52:54MIND, I'M LIKE, "THIS MAN IS ABOUT to
1:52:54say, "Get up here. What are you, what
1:52:56are you doing sitting here?" So he said,
1:52:58"Are you Afropolitan?"
1:52:59>> Oh, wow. Yes. That's a blown.
1:53:01>> YES. RIGHT. [laughter]
1:53:03>> AND I was like, look at him. And he was
1:53:05like, "Huh?" You know, I wasn't shocked
1:53:06because cuz funny enough, people
1:53:08sometimes don't connect until they see
1:53:10both of us together. That's how they see
1:53:12each other.
1:53:12>> Exactly. SO IT'S SO I'M WALKING AROUND
1:53:15looking for bags. EJ's on the phone
1:53:17dealing with the matter. So wasn't until
1:53:19we both sat down together on that belt
1:53:20that now the man came up and said, "Are
1:53:23you guys? I wasn't sure. You guys even
1:53:26made me late to work this morning. I'm
1:53:28always watching you guys, you know, and
1:53:29I and I've noticed that our podcast I
1:53:32thought was at a certain level, but I'm
1:53:35seeing security guards, people in the
1:53:37streets, people, different people.
1:53:38>> You've had quite the year. [laughter]
1:53:40>> Yes, you've had quite the year. SO, I'M
1:53:41BUT I'M CURIOUS BEYOND US, RIGHT? Cuz
1:53:43I'm seeing more podcasts. What do you
1:53:45see in that
1:53:46>> space? Cuz I think it's it's a different
1:53:48>> I don't know if we can rely on that skit
1:53:51thing. I don't think we can rely on, you
1:53:53know, these film thing. I think it's
1:53:55different. But so many Nigerians are
1:53:57consuming it.
1:53:58>> Well, also adding to it, just to give
1:53:59you color for your answer, is
1:54:01>> you know you're seeing this year with
1:54:02Netflix investing in video, right? I
1:54:06think something came out yesterday that
1:54:07apparently Netflix is now the number
1:54:08three platform for podcasting. Obviously
1:54:12Exactly. So,
1:54:13>> and the math is also the same math.
1:54:15They've realized, hey, people are
1:54:17spending 2 hours watching these
1:54:20>> podcasts,
1:54:24>> but the podcast less to make and then
1:54:26they're more consistent. So, if I
1:54:27license J Shetty for 50 million for 5
1:54:30years, I know J Shetty is giving me
1:54:32content every week. Whereas I might pay
1:54:3450 million for a movie, you may not get
1:54:36>> it may not get it back, right?
1:54:38>> Or it might be a dud. So, I want to know
1:54:40your your thoughts on the evolving
1:54:41space.
1:54:41>> So, this one, you know, you don't call
1:54:42people out generally in life. My friends
1:54:45in Netflix [laughter]
1:54:47look I made this case to them
1:54:49>> years ago.
1:54:50>> Crazy.
1:54:51>> But I understand.
1:54:52>> Yeah.
1:54:52>> When it comes to multinationals, most of
1:54:54those deep subjective decisions are made
1:54:56>> somewhere else and then the people here
1:54:58have to mind the decision and so
1:55:01you know but it made it just made sense
1:55:03when they invest in Nigerian movies.
1:55:04Look
1:55:06>> Nigerians. So
1:55:09many years ago I was in my driver many
1:55:12years ago. I went to the movies a film
1:55:15house s and I was watching a movie and I
1:55:16told him I want to be a nice
1:55:18compassionate boss. So I asked my driver
1:55:20pay for the ticket to come. So he came
1:55:21into the cinema he's watching with me.
1:55:23Then if 10 minutes inside he say sir
1:55:24please I'm sorry [laughter]
1:55:26can I go? Yes because it he wasn't
1:55:29feeling it.
1:55:31And ask any of our mothers, any of us
1:55:33that has mothers that are really
1:55:34Nigerian mothers, not you know,
1:55:36>> they don't it's going to be incredibly
1:55:37difficult to get a Nigerian mother to go
1:55:39to a Nigerian to a cinema.
1:55:41>> And even on the phone,
1:55:43>> yeah,
1:55:44>> the movies that we like
1:55:45>> are not the ones that made Nigerian
1:55:47mothers like
1:55:48>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
1:55:48>> They're not.
1:55:49>> The Nigeria is a funny country. That's a
1:55:51taste issue.
1:55:52>> Our taste are so bifocated, right?
1:55:54>> That there are some things that don't
1:55:56cross over. Yeah.
1:55:56>> So me in my room just
1:56:02>> I knew from the scratch.
1:56:04>> Yeah. Now I didn't
1:56:06know by being an expert. I'm like let's
1:56:09see. They might prove me wrong because
1:56:10these are smart guys. [laughter]
1:56:12>> Yeah. So maybe there's something they
1:56:13know
1:56:14>> that I don't know. But all that I know
1:56:16tells that this cannot work with this
1:56:17model.
1:56:18>> Yeah.
1:56:18>> And so I kept saying to them, okay, so
1:56:20why not? Well, not all of them. I said
1:56:22to a few people but invest in podcast is
1:56:24the same risk but at less cost.
1:56:27>> It's the same risk.
1:56:29>> We don't know whether people are going
1:56:30to watch or not. I'm not even promising
1:56:31you that podcast are going to succeed
1:56:32but I'm saying you're going to end up
1:56:34getting the same amount of viewers.
1:56:35>> Yeah.
1:56:37>> At a fraction.
1:56:39>> A fraction. Oh my god.
1:56:41>> It just seemed to me to be common sense.
1:56:44>> So I was not even thinking about it as a
1:56:45global Netflix model. I was thinking
1:56:47about it as an African Netflix model.
1:56:50>> Interesting. It was as if I was talking
1:56:51trash. [clears throat]
1:56:52>> So, you know, who am I? I said,
1:56:54[laughter] you know, I'm building my own
1:56:55podcast now rather than listening to it.
1:56:57Then when I went to go into podcast, I'm
1:56:59like, so I'm not mad or so I'M NOT
1:57:01CRAZY. [laughter] LIKE THIS MAKES SENSE.
1:57:04>> UM, so I agree with you.
1:57:06>> It's a no-brainer as an Africa strategy
1:57:09for Netflix, Amazon, and any streamer to
1:57:12urgently pivot
1:57:14>> to podcasts.
1:57:16>> It's a no-brainer. We know that they
1:57:17don't see Netflix loves movies that
1:57:19much. They love money.
1:57:20>> The math is pure.
1:57:22>> Yeah.
1:57:23>> The audience is already validated.
1:57:25>> Yeah. Yeah.
1:57:26>> The [laughter] thing is cheap.
1:57:28>> Yeah. Yeah.
1:57:28>> And the and the podcasters are stars. So
1:57:32promotion is locked in. Distribution is
1:57:34locked in. I don't know what they're
1:57:36doing, you know. That's why I'm so glad
1:57:38that you in LA because people talking to
1:57:40them. I know. [laughter] So on that
1:57:42handle, I think now, but this is the
1:57:44danger. And this what I was writing in
1:57:45my Substack this morning.
1:57:47Nigeria
1:57:49has what my p my go at MFM look call the
1:57:53spirit of almost there
1:57:56[laughter]
1:58:02>> there's a book
1:58:03>> which means you get to the edge of
1:58:05success
1:58:06>> but you never quite get there
1:58:08>> Nigeria has it's happened in Mollywood
1:58:10many times happened with our fashion
1:58:12industry it's happened and I worry that
1:58:15it could happen with podcast because
1:58:16it's how Nigerian economy works.
1:58:18>> This how industries die.
1:58:20>> Yeah.
1:58:21>> People, a lot of people come in cuz you
1:58:22know people are doing podcast cuz they
1:58:23think that there's a lot of money will
1:58:25not be doing this.
1:58:26>> Chick not be doing this will not be
1:58:29doing they don't because most people
1:58:30don't see vision and they don't think
1:58:31long term. They think money is there
1:58:33now. Let's go. So many people and what
1:58:35is podcast not two chairs and the
1:58:37microphone [laughter]
1:58:38>> so they do it.
1:58:39>> So think a lot of money now when they
1:58:40come in I tell people that you need to
1:58:42if you track the number of podcasts have
1:58:43died.
1:58:44>> Yeah. There are at least three times the
1:58:45number of podcasters that exist at the
1:58:47moment. Most people start and stop. They
1:58:48realize there's no money. They're trying
1:58:49to figure out
1:58:50>> why are you doing this?
1:58:52>> So what happens in Nigeria is when
1:58:54people do that pure water business,
1:58:56beauty pageantss, all of that. They get
1:58:58in expecting a big payday. They realize
1:59:00that there's no big payday. They exit.
1:59:04Industry collapses.
1:59:05>> Oh yeah.
1:59:05>> That's what happened to the cassette
1:59:06business. That's what happened to all of
1:59:09that. My worry is and it's so people
1:59:12only sorry people only keep doing it if
1:59:14there's money there.
1:59:15>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
1:59:16>> Once there's no money there, they stop
1:59:18doing it.
1:59:19>> And for an industry to reach a tipping
1:59:21point, you need to have enough people
1:59:22consistently.
1:59:23>> Yes. Yes.
1:59:24>> So my worry is that if this thing
1:59:27doesn't turn over to big money soon
1:59:29enough,
1:59:30>> people begin to drop off.
1:59:31>> Yeah.
1:59:31>> Drop off.
1:59:32>> Drop off.
1:59:34>> Drop off.
1:59:34>> Yeah.
1:59:35>> And the entire industry will be almost
1:59:36there.
1:59:37>> Yeah.
1:59:37>> Interesting. So we either need to think
1:59:39about institutional investment. I you
1:59:42see I hate talking to tech investors
1:59:45about the creative industries even local
1:59:48tech investors. You all know yourself
1:59:49>> when they contact me by you're not
1:59:51serious. You're not ready to listen
1:59:52>> because this you're talking about taste
1:59:54and culture. It works differently from
1:59:56transactions
1:59:57>> and code
1:59:58>> and code.
1:59:59>> And you have to respect it and you have
2:00:00to submit to those who know it.
2:00:02>> Not because there's any arrogance.
2:00:05to understand
2:00:07you want to do
2:00:09the NFL you have to talk to people who
2:00:11know it
2:00:12>> so and the way that they're going to
2:00:14make it into a billion dollar business
2:00:17is going to be by aligning the tech to
2:00:19fit [laughter] the organic method
2:00:21>> and unless we have those kind unless
2:00:23those of us in the media have the money
2:00:25>> to build because we know what is
2:00:26possible
2:00:27>> the decision investors have the humility
2:00:29to win in underserved markets
2:00:32>> or this is the one that's likely
2:00:33unlikely to
2:00:35a consortion of policy makers suddenly
2:00:36become high quality thinkers who are
2:00:38able to [laughter] build an industry.
2:00:40>> I mean they did it in Korea though South
2:00:42Korea.
2:00:42>> Yes. But on Nigeria
2:00:44>> yeah so a Netflix if for instance if
2:00:47Netflix had succeeded in with his
2:00:50visions for the Nigerian movie industry
2:00:51on Amazon they could have remade our
2:00:53entire industry. But it's not often that
2:00:55outsiders remake our industry. So if
2:00:57Netflix decides to look here for video
2:00:59podcast and we that we are the players
2:01:01find a way to put in the monies that's
2:01:05why I say one of the most exciting
2:01:06things that ever happened was to see the
2:01:07ladies that I said what I said partner
2:01:09with to create carousel
2:01:11>> because that's systemic institutional
2:01:13thinking
2:01:14>> if we can have enough of institutional
2:01:16thinking across our sector it can be a
2:01:20bastard money maker
2:01:22>> podcasting can be and I'm dedicating my
2:01:25life to my own thesis. So you know when
2:01:28I started doing podcast cuz everyone
2:01:29knew what I done. I done politics.
2:01:31People thought I'd lost my mind.
2:01:32>> So my friends were asking me so what are
2:01:34you doing now?
2:01:35>> Just after they told me they saw my
2:01:36episode.
2:01:37>> SO I'M TELLING THEIR mind what you are
2:01:41doing.
2:01:41>> SO [laughter] SO WHEN YOU MEET PEOPLE
2:01:43SOMEONE is like what are
2:01:44>> what are you doing now?
2:01:45>> You just finished watching my episode.
2:01:46Maybe they don't know my show. No say oh
2:01:48I was watching this episode. So I'm like
2:01:50they began to clock it later like they
2:01:52say that. know they think that this
2:01:53podcast just you're playing
2:01:54>> your hobby
2:01:56>> that you still do your things. Maybe
2:01:57you're working for a politician or
2:01:59something and you're hiding it.
2:02:00>> I'm like I'm dedicating my life to the
2:02:03thesis. So it's either two things
2:02:05happen.
2:02:06>> It's either the industry grows
2:02:07[clears throat] to meet my vision or I
2:02:09am one of the winners. [laughter]
2:02:10>> No, you're going to be so I'm saying
2:02:13whatever it is I would rather it was the
2:02:14other because it makes it easier for
2:02:15everybody. And I'm not saying it's one
2:02:16of those fake ways of maybe be more
2:02:18successful than me. No, it's like if an
2:02:20ecosystem is lifted up. Yeah,
2:02:22>> then everybody becomes a bit easier. But
2:02:25if not, I am convinced just because of
2:02:28what you said when I knew I had blown
2:02:30through a market in like true. I'm like,
2:02:33"Hey, [laughter] God, I've blown."
2:02:36>> It's different. It's different. It's
2:02:38different. It's different. It's
2:02:39different. And so I'm thinking that if I
2:02:41can have a podcast
2:02:42>> that all these women are watching and I
2:02:44have the trackable numbers, you know,
2:02:46and we're influencing things,
2:02:48>> you know, and my model, my subscriber
2:02:51model keeps growing,
2:02:52>> it's going to be a thing. So you don't
2:02:55even I'm the proof that I agree with you
2:02:57is that I am taking
2:02:59>> my personal energies instead of doing
2:03:02forex.
2:03:03>> You know, we had LJ on the podcast,
2:03:05right? and he was talking about um how
2:03:08>> you know we kept on saying afrobeast to
2:03:10the world
2:03:10>> and then the world came
2:03:12>> and it's like we not we're seeing the
2:03:14issues that you know we're having and
2:03:16it's because a lot of it we didn't have
2:03:17the infrastructure set up to for the
2:03:19world to come and I was thinking about
2:03:21and then the other thing is now there's
2:03:23this thing where a lot of the folks in
2:03:24Afro beats always think from the lens of
2:03:27oh will this perform well globally first
2:03:29before they even think about Nigeria
2:03:31forgetting that the reason the world
2:03:32cared about you was from your
2:03:33authenticity to begin
2:03:35>> [gasps]
2:03:35>> I think podcasting can be that role cuz
2:03:38my mindset and I think mindset has also
2:03:40evolved from that was before we would be
2:03:42like okay
2:03:43>> where is our audience coming from like
2:03:45is it diaspora is it this is it that and
2:03:47then now it's like I've started to not
2:03:49to say that there's anything wrong with
2:03:50diaspora but I've started to really take
2:03:51deep pride in the market woman
2:03:55>> in Okun states or inugu or in Nasara
2:03:58wherever because there's something about
2:04:01>> being known by your people
2:04:03>> yes
2:04:03>> where money cannot buy it. [laughter]
2:04:07>> Fame and everything else cannot buy. And
2:04:08it's one of those things where and I
2:04:10think I was watching Steve um Steven's
2:04:12um video and then the architect says to
2:04:15him, "What is you guys' own cultural
2:04:17heritage?" And do you remember watching
2:04:20when I watched it? I remember just being
2:04:21like, "This is our problem." Cuz he's
2:04:23like, "Why are you trying to copy Venice
2:04:25and copy all these other What is
2:04:27Nigeria's own architectural cultural
2:04:30heritage? Build that and then the world
2:04:33will come. And he was making reference
2:04:35to Morocco and like this how Morocco's
2:04:37architecture is Morocco and you see
2:04:39people boring it. And I was just like
2:04:40man this is the problem. We don't take
2:04:42pride in our own stuff in our own we
2:04:46don't we don't like ourselves. We don't
2:04:50think that we are good. We don't think
2:04:52that anything valuable comes out of
2:04:53here. I'm telling you
2:04:55>> every year this year is going to happen.
2:04:56Art November is coming now. It's already
2:04:58here. Celebration kicks off November.
2:05:01You're going to have panels all over
2:05:02this continent. How do we get our
2:05:04stories to travel? [laughter]
2:05:06>> That question irritates me.
2:05:10>> Chica,
2:05:10>> if I'm going to write my next book is so
2:05:12I've g I gave a TED talk last year.
2:05:15>> Stop trying to tell African stories to
2:05:16the world.
2:05:17>> Yeah.
2:05:18>> Now people think I'm mad. I'm not mad
2:05:20and I'm proving I'm going to prove it.
2:05:21>> Yeah.
2:05:22>> I said stop telling me how can I make
2:05:24travel.
2:05:25>> Stop [snorts] asking for a model. There
2:05:27is already a model.
2:05:29>> Kindle has a model.
2:05:31has a model
2:05:34any
2:05:39model to nobody ever says let's go and
2:05:42on look in any society
2:05:44>> if Abraham was successful schools media
2:05:47schools will be calling her as a guest
2:05:49lecturer
2:05:50>> they how do our students learn your
2:05:52model
2:05:52>> HBS
2:05:53>> HBS will be doing commissioning papers
2:05:56>> on Tony Ibraham will be keynoting
2:05:59>> yeah yeah
2:05:59>> but because your mind what we want what
2:06:01we are saying is that no how can we make
2:06:03the stories we like successful but I'm
2:06:06like there's already a model that model
2:06:09respects the local taste [laughter]
2:06:12>> yes
2:06:13>> that model respects the local taste it
2:06:16builds from the ground up
2:06:18>> we keep talking about disposable your
2:06:19guys said it now one of your guests that
2:06:21we're talking about what are you talking
2:06:22about Nigerians don't have the
2:06:23disposable income have you walked into
2:06:24Lagos Island on any Saturday or Friday
2:06:27[laughter] you cannot drive parties is
2:06:30people are forget AFCC people are
2:06:32spraying money. People are spending
2:06:34money in Nigeria regularly
2:06:36>> on the things that they consider to be
2:06:39native to them.
2:06:41>> One will never go broke will never go
2:06:44broke and bre all these people will
2:06:46never go broke because they understand
2:06:49the local taste. Now many of them not
2:06:52demot some people might not scale but
2:06:55they will never they will have a lot of
2:06:57cash flow because they aligned to the
2:07:00local taste. Yeah.
2:07:01>> So on TV, one of the biggest media
2:07:04conglomerates in the country is my
2:07:05uncle. I call him my uncle because he's
2:07:06making so much money. Consolidated media
2:07:08associates aduet.
2:07:11People don't know him on TV. Sound city
2:07:13radio. These three radio stations are
2:07:15the most listened to at any time in
2:07:17Lagos because he doesn't speak English
2:07:19on panels. He's think what do they want
2:07:22to consume? How do we create a platform?
2:07:24You are the one that wins award. We do.
2:07:26So there is a local taste and I get very
2:07:29passionate about this
2:07:30>> and we are not going to explode this in.
2:07:32So you got it right which is
2:07:35>> it's not the is when we try to reverse
2:07:37engineer it like tech people and say
2:07:39where our audience every time look in my
2:07:41in my show
2:07:42>> every time I've tried to engineer it
2:07:44based on data I failed
2:07:46>> every time I've done it based on
2:07:47instinct and taste I succeed. So we
2:07:49stopped doing I used to have I used to
2:07:50boast that I had a report of every
2:07:52single thing on Excel on a Google sheet
2:07:54every single you know you know I stay
2:07:56back there to do it you know we optimize
2:07:58[laughter] everything I said I did it
2:07:59before you it didn't work
2:08:02>> when I say using my gut
2:08:04>> and your taste
2:08:04>> and my taste it worked so what we don't
2:08:07so you're getting right because they
2:08:09were saying okay there people can watch
2:08:11batlet
2:08:12>> they can watch Jetty
2:08:14>> they can watch call her daddy no they're
2:08:16looking for something Yes,
2:08:19>> the elephant that only comes from home
2:08:20and you know it because I lived in the
2:08:22UK for about 3 years just because and I
2:08:24was looking for Nigerian things so
2:08:26desperately once I was away I wanted
2:08:28mozzik sala [laughter]
2:08:31so I realized that that was the issue
2:08:33once I was away I wanted mozik sal that
2:08:35was the issue that they don't they're
2:08:36not looking for that thing you think
2:08:38they are looking for they're looking for
2:08:41why does pastor Jerry fill out stadiums
2:08:43anywhere in the world
2:08:44>> and didn't he just do it in Atlanta and
2:08:46we do it if he in Japan they will come.
2:08:48>> You've seen the Nigerians are in Japan
2:08:50>> but it's [laughter] true because this
2:08:52because Nigerians want
2:08:54>> a feeling of home a sense of home
2:08:56>> to they want it. That's why our jelloof
2:08:58enter into not eat anybody's food eating
2:09:00jelloof fries. [laughter] It will not
2:09:01scale
2:09:03>> but it will sap YOU MUST FIND [laughter]
2:09:07SOMEWHERE. WHY DO we think I'm not sure
2:09:09but it's very likely Nigeria is one of
2:09:11the only countries in the world where a
2:09:13can I call brand names a Burger King
2:09:15will advertise that they doing jello
2:09:17fried
2:09:17>> stick
2:09:18>> because that's our taste they small
2:09:21>> chops [laughter]
2:09:23>> the multinationals get it
2:09:26>> it's multinationals will do a s we
2:09:28sitize here and not in any market this
2:09:30what I always say if you're importing
2:09:32rice if you were doing rice
2:09:34>> and you were doing a conference of
2:09:36people that were doing rice do I think
2:09:37the first question they ask is how do we
2:09:38get our rice to travel?
2:09:39>> Yeah. No, [laughter]
2:09:41>> it's only creative people.
2:09:42>> Yeah.
2:09:43>> That's not how you get No, they will say
2:09:44how do we first get every single person
2:09:46here to buy our rice? Then if it remains
2:09:50>> Yeah.
2:09:50>> will now export it. The creative sectors
2:09:53have gotten it all wrong.
2:09:55>> We will only succeed not when we have
2:09:58enough people winning the can.
2:10:00>> Yeah.
2:10:00>> When we have enough people following the
2:10:01phone delay model.
2:10:03>> Interesting. will only succeed if the
2:10:06investors CAX
2:10:07>> AFDB
2:10:08>> all of them
2:10:09>> all of them
2:10:10>> the World Bank
2:10:12>> all of them if they go and study what
2:10:15makes today's interview with an EU
2:10:20actress that we didn't even know was in
2:10:21the mainstream go viral
2:10:24>> what made Oasabi auntie such a huge
2:10:28success
2:10:29>> that's it now the Afrobate people they
2:10:30don't you see David do is not a fool now
2:10:33as we must we must surely know
2:10:35>> you see David do on gay podcast you
2:10:36think he's an idiot [gasps]
2:10:38>> then you that you just said you want to
2:10:39increase your streams you're trying to
2:10:40engineer for what people abroad are
2:10:42going to listen to when David do is
2:10:44constantly listening to what people
2:10:45internally
2:10:46>> are doing
2:10:46>> are doing why do you think that boner is
2:10:48in the clubs why do you think that he's
2:10:49talking to people why do you think that
2:10:51he's cavotting with BDM
2:10:52>> that he still [clears throat] lives here
2:10:53too
2:10:53>> why do you think he still lives here
2:10:55they understand it's the local taste and
2:10:59the local approval that scales
2:11:01>> is a comparative advantage Wait, wait,
2:11:03wait. You over [laughter] said what he
2:11:04said. Say it again.
2:11:05>> It's the local taste that scales.
2:11:09>> It is Chinese people. So sometimes
2:11:11they'll tell you, "Oh, but want to win
2:11:12an Oscars." Like the Chinese film, the
2:11:15Indian film that won Oscars was an
2:11:16accident. It wasn't a strategy.
2:11:18>> Yeah.
2:11:19>> The Indian people, no Chinese filmmaker
2:11:21first started by how do I get my Chinese
2:11:22stories to travel?
2:11:23>> So they don't even care.
2:11:24>> They don't know that you exist.
2:11:26>> That's why we not beat our social media
2:11:28platforms here. So I don't know how I'm
2:11:30going to say. When people go to our my
2:11:31holding company website, they always ask
2:11:33me ask me everybody says want so we say
2:11:35we want to build we want to tell African
2:11:37stories to Africans. I've been saying it
2:11:38for 20 years that's what I want to do.
2:11:41They say why Africans cuz everybody else
2:11:42is saying look I say look I understand
2:11:44people can say that gives you more
2:11:45money. Institutional investors
2:11:46understand that language but look so I
2:11:49say this and I don't say it to spite
2:11:50people. I say so they can understand
2:11:51what I mean. No Nigerian movie
2:11:54>> Mhm.
2:11:55No Nigerian movie [snorts]
2:11:58>> that has done well on the international
2:12:00awards or festival circuit
2:12:02>> has done well at the local box office
2:12:06>> if I'm wrong it will be by one or two
2:12:08and I don't think I'm wrong
2:12:10>> no Nigerian movie that has won the
2:12:13highest awards at the cans at Venice or
2:12:15whatever has done by the local box
2:12:17office it doesn't mean that they are bad
2:12:18films I love them they're my taste you
2:12:20know because you know we went to Yale
2:12:22and all these places so we have that
2:12:23kind of taste but can't.
2:12:25>> My mama is not going to watch that film.
2:12:28>> My driver is not going to watch that
2:12:29film. My mother has two master's
2:12:30degrees.
2:12:31>> She's not going to watch it. So, until
2:12:33we scale the local taste,
2:12:37>> this industry is not going to grow.
2:12:39Until we have institutional thinkers who
2:12:42decide, okay, let's humble ourselves.
2:12:45>> Let's serve jelloof rice. Let's scale
2:12:47it. [laughter]
2:12:48>> It's not I swear to God, this is my pet
2:12:50peeve. Let me stop it because I can go
2:12:52on.
2:12:52>> No, no, no. But you know, so so I I want
2:12:55to cuz I know he'll jump somewhere. So I
2:12:58want to I want to [laughter] look at
2:13:00>> massage.
2:13:01Yeah. CUZ I KNOW
2:13:04I know I know my husband [laughter] is
2:13:05looking at me. BUT I THINK IT'S VERY,
2:13:08you know, I feel like this is a
2:13:09watershed moment even for me. I'm
2:13:12hearing what you're saying and it's it's
2:13:14giving me like h like something for me
2:13:17to think about, right? Because so I
2:13:20think there's two things I want to talk
2:13:21about. So I want to talk about you. with
2:13:23Parker here cuz I think she's very
2:13:24important to this story you're saying
2:13:26from a different media angle.
2:13:28>> Um but also, you know, it's interesting
2:13:31because
2:13:33>> I think when we started this podcast,
2:13:35you know,
2:13:36>> um we grew up in the US. Again, I've
2:13:39done brand deals abroad. So, in my mind,
2:13:40I'm like, we need to figure out how to
2:13:42export this thing now now, now, now,
2:13:44now, now, now, right? And then I don't
2:13:47know what happened with us. I'm not sure
2:13:50where the change shifted, but I think at
2:13:52some point me and a were like, you know
2:13:54what? Let's just tell good stories.
2:13:56Let's let's find [clears throat]
2:13:57those local stories that people have not
2:14:00said really told yet. You know, we just
2:14:02started focusing on them because like
2:14:04you said, it was the DIO EPISODE FIRST.
2:14:07[screaming]
2:14:07>> NOBODY KNEW KNOWS HIM. WE know him.
2:14:10Nobody knows him.
2:14:11>> That's how I became a fan of the show.
2:14:12It was I saw him the other day. I saw
2:14:14him at an event. I was, you know, WHEN
2:14:16YOU SEE A STAR, I [laughter] WAS TO NIP
2:14:17UP AND BE LIKE, HE DOESN'T KNOW ME. I
2:14:20mean, WE'RE NOT FRIENDS, BUT THAT WAS
2:14:21THE EPISODE. SUCH A Nigerian story.
2:14:25>> VERY NIGERIAN GROUNDED. YES. GROUNDED
2:14:27INDEED, you know, and I, you know, and
2:14:29it it's people like him. There's even
2:14:31another guy. We haven't interviewed him
2:14:33yet, but we've heard his story and we're
2:14:35like, we need to bring it here. So, and
2:14:37I realized that when I looked at the
2:14:39data each week,
2:14:40>> right,
2:14:41>> it travels
2:14:42>> and we don't have to. You don't have to
2:14:44even DO THE EFFORT OF TRAVELING.
2:14:46>> WE DON'T HAVE TO. WE DON'T HAVE TO
2:14:47because for example the bank head we're
2:14:49talking about
2:14:50>> it made us 13 on the charts for UK right
2:14:54>> for UK
2:14:55>> for the UK in business category.
2:14:58>> Uh I think 14 in Canada
2:15:01>> for the entrepreneurship you know thing
2:15:03and then Japan Dubai sorry it just keeps
2:15:06keep going. So I was like, we don't have
2:15:08to because when we just tell our
2:15:09stories, people are looking for that
2:15:12information. And then interestingly
2:15:14enough, I was I posted online about like
2:15:17publicist and things like that. And then
2:15:18a bunch of like, you know, Americans
2:15:20said, "Oh, I love your podcast. I want
2:15:21to be in your podcast." [laughter] So it
2:15:23goes back to this thing of I think if we
2:15:25ground ourselves, it's going to travel.
2:15:28But I want to now talk about Chimamanda
2:15:30because I think she's an early example
2:15:32and I don't know if it was strategy
2:15:34>> or emerging strategy. [laughter]
2:15:37I don't know what world is. I don't I
2:15:38don't know. But when you think about she
2:15:40started here
2:15:41>> and then she kept building and kept
2:15:43building, kept building. Now she's
2:15:44global, you know, and so I'm I'm I feel
2:15:47like
2:15:48>> I want more podcasters to understand
2:15:51that new one.
2:15:52>> Yes.
2:15:53>> Um because I think so many of them are
2:15:56struggling but they want to build what
2:15:58they're building.
2:15:59>> Yes, I agree with you. Yes. And that's
2:16:01what this is the switch that needs to
2:16:02happen. That's why that's look look for
2:16:04four years of 5 years doing my show I
2:16:06stopped I didn't do interviews you know
2:16:09I was just like I've started doing
2:16:10interviews at the age of 15 I'm tired
2:16:12other people [laughter] should go and do
2:16:13it but I remember screaming into my TV
2:16:14in my London apartment cuz I left
2:16:16Nigeria just because I just thought I
2:16:17never really lived anywhere let me just
2:16:19go somewhere and this one only is 6
2:16:20hours you know let's go there I remember
2:16:21I'll be screaming into the mic I'll be
2:16:23somebody I'm LIKE BUT THAT'S RUBBISH
2:16:25[laughter] I HAVE COMPANIES THAT ARE
2:16:26succeeding they doing millions of
2:16:27dollars this you're saying is not true
2:16:29LIKE THIS NOT HOW THE MARKET WORKS like
2:16:31I'll be selling I said okay you know The
2:16:33only way to solve this problem is to go
2:16:34and tell them. [laughter]
2:16:36>> Enter yourself.
2:16:37>> I'm telling you like you can't be
2:16:38screaming at the microphone. Tell them
2:16:39with your words. Tell them with your
2:16:40actions.
2:16:41>> That's why I'm putting my money where my
2:16:42mouth is.
2:16:43>> You see the reason why most people may
2:16:45not even believe this podcast thing is
2:16:46because they don't understand why Masu
2:16:48succeeds.
2:16:50>> They don't understand why the top
2:16:51podcast are not even podcast. They're
2:16:53just pastor's messages
2:16:55>> sometimes that he just puts that he
2:16:56doesn't even know that they on podcast
2:16:57cuz maybe one of his church members just
2:16:59puts it there now. was to sell man
2:17:00sometimes to be number one, number two,
2:17:02number three on the Apple podcast chart.
2:17:04>> Yeah. Yeah.
2:17:05>> Because Nigerians want to learn have
2:17:06always been a radio people.
2:17:07>> Yeah. Audio
2:17:08>> audio people. Sorry. And so this is just
2:17:10it. It's a miracle. You can even listen
2:17:11to video podcast and turn from video to
2:17:13audio if you have a TV. So
2:17:15>> the market is already there. The problem
2:17:18is this is what the problem is. Those of
2:17:21us Nigerians Nigeria has a cultural
2:17:23problem.
2:17:24>> Yeah.
2:17:24>> Our culture didn't organically evolve.
2:17:28It evolved in different stages. There
2:17:30was colonialism, there was importation,
2:17:31there was all of that. So we have we
2:17:33have we do have one Nigeria with many
2:17:35types of Nigerians. And the loudest ones
2:17:38are the ones that went to schools
2:17:40abroad.
2:17:41>> Not their fault. It's not their fault.
2:17:42Now what are they going to do? They went
2:17:43to school abroad.
2:17:45>> Now how I go now?
2:17:46>> Yes. Now the world is a capitalist
2:17:48economy. That means
2:17:50>> by implication we listen to the people
2:17:52that have the most money.
2:17:53>> Yeah.
2:17:53>> And we're a poor continent. That means
2:17:56the money institutional monies flow like
2:17:58this.
2:17:58>> Yeah.
2:17:59>> And that and and money has a point of
2:18:01view.
2:18:02>> Sat on my board many years ago and he
2:18:03said it in a board meeting. I'm like I'm
2:18:05just like capital has a point of view.
2:18:08Stop trying to explain this thing to
2:18:10them. No. Listen to what they
2:18:11understand. And then now pitch to so
2:18:16what typically happens is we want to
2:18:18speak the language of the people who
2:18:19have the resources.
2:18:20>> Yeah.
2:18:20>> And unfortunately because they have a
2:18:22billion dollars they really don't have
2:18:24time. I was one of the fascinating
2:18:25things I read was the conversation that
2:18:26Elon Musk had with one of his
2:18:28lieutenants about Sam Bachman Freed and
2:18:30I just it was just fascinating how power
2:18:32works. It's like I don't want to talk to
2:18:33me about crypto. I'm just like these are
2:18:34decisions are made like a rich man's
2:18:35like I don't want to hear this and so if
2:18:37you're trying to convince the man you
2:18:39have to speak the language that he
2:18:41understands and it's too difficult this
2:18:43all the things I say it's difficult
2:18:44sometime to explain it if you don't
2:18:46understand it. So many of the
2:18:47translators,
2:18:50>> which is where we fall,
2:18:51>> which is where we fall, just speak the
2:18:53language of the person that has the
2:18:54money.
2:18:55>> And we can never say we really I really
2:18:57don't understand why my mother doesn't
2:18:58watch Netflix.
2:19:00>> So we pretend like we understand. You
2:19:02and I have sat in too many rooms where
2:19:03the person that's given the pitch to the
2:19:04people at the World Bank doesn't know
2:19:06what you're talking about.
2:19:06>> JACK,
2:19:08[laughter]
2:19:09>> but he has said it with enough. He has
2:19:11quoted he has quoted disruption. He has
2:19:14quoted he has quoted HBS 1999 Clayton
2:19:19Christensen and because I'm also reading
2:19:22Christensen I'm like but that's not what
2:19:24he said first on the phone was and he
2:19:26did apply to this market cuz he didn't
2:19:27have the research about this market
2:19:29>> and so that's what happened. So the
2:19:30translators and people listening to the
2:19:33translators are dancing to a different
2:19:34beat.
2:19:36>> You you know it's funny because I'll
2:19:38tell you that was my Kool-Aid
2:19:41>> for a while, right? And it took me I
2:19:44would say over the last 3 years, four
2:19:46years where
2:19:47>> you know whether you get invited to
2:19:48speak or conferences and all those type
2:19:50of things and you're like like now
2:19:52>> I tell her cuz we get invited to speak
2:19:55or do things I'm saying no no no not to
2:19:57say not because I'm but it was just more
2:19:58of like I'm making up for all that loss
2:20:02because now you start to say to yourself
2:20:03like I'm tired of that game. I'm trying
2:20:06to play an eternal game now. And to play
2:20:08an eternal game, I can't be wasting my
2:20:10time on all these things, right?
2:20:12>> And it's just that thing of
2:20:15>> and I'm glad that we're having this
2:20:16discussion cuz that's the work that's
2:20:18before all of us, right? So, it's like
2:20:19focusing on it and executing on that
2:20:22level. Yeah.
2:20:22>> Absolutely. Bit of a tangent. I'm like
2:20:24most creators, you ask me what they
2:20:26should do.
2:20:26>> Pay attention to Pella.
2:20:28>> Yeah.
2:20:29>> Pay attention to real J. Yeah.
2:20:32>> You see how can people [laughter] if you
2:20:34ask a young person what are your models
2:20:36for building a media business they will
2:20:37say Vice which is dead by the way
2:20:39>> BuzzFeed which is dying by the way
2:20:41>> all those models that me and you were
2:20:42going to die
2:20:43>> because it's not this media business
2:20:45globally.
2:20:46>> Why can why would you be looking at
2:20:49Shalom the God as your model instead of
2:20:51Tund
2:20:54>> Tund is a multi-million dollar
2:20:56enterprise. If you want to
2:20:58[clears throat] doubt it, go now as you
2:21:00are watching
2:21:00>> on Twage and throughout today count how
2:21:03many paid adverts
2:21:05>> paid posts are on that page.
2:21:06>> Now assume that the minimum that Ted not
2:21:08charges is 200,000 NRA
2:21:10>> times it. [laughter]
2:21:13>> Then you do your maths.
2:21:15>> Insta blog is a media startup. It's one
2:21:19of the most successful media startups
2:21:21Nigeria has ever produced. M
2:21:24>> almost zero cost expenses [laughter]
2:21:28>> a clear taste
2:21:30>> you can know a instab blog capture
2:21:34>> massive revenue across multiple
2:21:36verticals so you see you see Insta blog
2:21:38doesn't know how to discuss the language
2:21:39of verticals
2:21:40>> but Insta blog has different verticals
2:21:43about four channels
2:21:44>> they are all money killers so they
2:21:47didn't create channels out of
2:21:48inspiration because they couldn't put so
2:21:49many adverts on one channel
2:21:51>> so they create another channel these are
2:21:54media startups that young people should
2:21:56be when you want to start their own
2:21:57blog. They will pack color daddy,
2:22:00they'll [laughter] pack shade room,
2:22:02[clears throat]
2:22:02>> THEY'LL PACK THAT. I'M TIRED OF IT. THE
2:22:05REALITY is in front of your lying eyes.
2:22:08>> SO THAT'S WHAT WE NEED TO DO. STOP
2:22:10DESPISING PELLA. LOOK, you know has
2:22:14every time you bring Simon Syn put Green
2:22:18>> um
2:22:20Jordan Peterson,
2:22:21>> we have our own version. Look, put
2:22:25>> Yeah.
2:22:25>> on your podcast.
2:22:27>> Put
2:22:29on your podcast. Put
2:22:33>> Put Emanuel. We have our own version.
2:22:37>> But because it doesn't sound like what
2:22:39the elite, the cultural and educational,
2:22:41not the financial elite because fincial
2:22:42elites are politicians, they're making
2:22:44money. [laughter]
2:22:45>> When you put them, so that's what the
2:22:47young people need to observe the real
2:22:49culture movers. They need to observe the
2:22:52real podcasters who may not be on the
2:22:54stage at KX or whatever and these are
2:22:56good platforms. I'm not attacking them
2:22:58>> but they but they are winning. Rachel
2:23:01Okonqua those people observe them. They
2:23:05know how this audience consumes. That's
2:23:07how to succeed.
2:23:08>> So even like um what's the guy's show?
2:23:12Curiosity made me ask. You say that
2:23:14>> of course now and he he will we tell you
2:23:16his story now. He fed made the mistake
2:23:18that many people make. He focus on what
2:23:19everybody else is doing. Then he did
2:23:21skits. Then because I interviewed him
2:23:23many years ago, I didn't really
2:23:24interview for personal reasons
2:23:26>> and he extended it to me and then he
2:23:27extended recently and then he just
2:23:28thought how do I become special?
2:23:30>> Yeah. Unique.
2:23:31>> How do I become unique? But he didn't do
2:23:32it the way we do it. They were now being
2:23:34Potter's five forces. Maybe one of the
2:23:36forces died on the way at the airport s
2:23:38on the motor and died. We don't we we
2:23:41don't understand that these models apply
2:23:43in particular context. M
2:23:45>> and so he took it but he didn't do it
2:23:46the way that other people would do it
2:23:47which is just to copy.
2:23:49>> He now adapted it
2:23:51>> to Nigerian content. Even that wearing
2:23:53of shorts
2:23:55>> came from skit culture.
2:23:56>> Yeah.
2:23:57>> And skit culture is one of the realest
2:23:59expressions of Nigerian culture that
2:24:01exists.
2:24:01>> Interesting.
2:24:02>> So he brought that gave it to a high
2:24:05concept platform and one both ways
2:24:09>> one on the streets and one in the
2:24:11boardroom.
2:24:12That's how you do it.
2:24:15>> I'm telling you. I'm I'm So that's I say
2:24:17you see there's a difference between
2:24:18success and scale.
2:24:19>> Yeah.
2:24:20>> The challenge with many of us is that we
2:24:21succeed but we don't scale cuz scaling
2:24:24requires institutions. This is where I
2:24:26people's models work. People are good
2:24:28>> at scale
2:24:29>> at scale at the models that even my five
2:24:32joke that didn't even enter. It's not
2:24:34even true because at some point
2:24:37>> globally the same things operate. But
2:24:39what must not change is the taste,
2:24:43>> the input
2:24:44>> and the respect.
2:24:46>> So what change is the taste and the
2:24:48respect for the taste
2:24:50>> scale everything else. David is doing it
2:24:51already. BONAB IS DOING SCALE EVERYTHING
2:24:53ELSE. The the concerts internationally
2:24:56are global standard.
2:24:58>> But the arrogance is Nigerian standard.
2:25:00[laughter]
2:25:01>> It's true. It's true. It's true.
2:25:03>> Who else would do what
2:25:05>> Bona did with Beyonce
2:25:06>> or even with Coachella?
2:25:07>> Who's your That's what I'm saying.
2:25:08Coachella Coachella. Who's your father?
2:25:10It is that same thing that Bon did, the
2:25:12same thing that that guy did to WIK.
2:25:13>> Yeah.
2:25:13>> I am not a fool sir.
2:25:15>> Yeah.
2:25:15>> I am Are you feeding me?
2:25:16>> Yeah. Yeah.
2:25:17>> Are you feeding me is Nigeria's cultural
2:25:21cannon? [laughter]
2:25:23>> If your driver who has been paying who
2:25:24has been taking your insults,
2:25:25>> yeah,
2:25:26>> the day he decides, are you feeding me?
2:25:28>> He's done. He's done.
2:25:29>> So that guy, it resonated because that's
2:25:31why Wik is one of the most popular
2:25:32politicians in I don't want to spend
2:25:33time on that. But
2:25:35>> because he understand politicians
2:25:36understand Nigerian taste.
2:25:38>> They don't joke with it. People always
2:25:39say stomach infrastructure really not
2:25:40really. If you go into states, you see
2:25:43the way the way people the people that
2:25:44came from Harvard are campaigning and
2:25:46you see the way that the people that
2:25:47understand are campaigning.
2:25:49>> So people say things like again this is
2:25:51a private people say things like oh it's
2:25:53people is it by speaking Euroba that you
2:25:55win elections.
2:25:57Okay. go to Texas [laughter] and speak
2:26:00French
2:26:02to Democrats
2:26:04and just if you say it in the other way
2:26:08it will make sense to you that what
2:26:09you're saying doesn't make sense. It's
2:26:11not because we know the voters know that
2:26:13Euroba will not
2:26:14>> produce water.
2:26:16>> But just like can I can I get to know
2:26:17you?
2:26:18>> What's your context?
2:26:19>> What's your
2:26:20>> what's your context?
2:26:22>> That's it. So we need to understand our
2:26:24context. We need to respect our
2:26:26audience.
2:26:27>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
2:26:27>> So, we're almost going on 3 hours now.
2:26:30So, I I know that.
2:26:31>> Is that what they said?
2:26:32>> No, no. I'm saying it's almost about to
2:26:34be Yeah. You said at 11. [laughter]
2:26:37>> So, I wanted to Yeah, exactly. I wanted
2:26:39to um transition quickly and you also
2:26:42have to let me know. Designing it,
2:26:43>> right? All right. [laughter] Is that a
2:26:45topic you want to touch on a little bit
2:26:46or is it still
2:26:47>> I don't mind, but I won't talk in depth.
2:26:48I talk about it. Yeah.
2:26:50>> Um Yeah. Yeah. Of course.
2:26:51>> So, I think uh with the designing case,
2:26:54investigative journalism.
2:26:55>> Yeah. Would you would you still find
2:26:58yourself doing more investigative
2:26:59journalism work or how do you feel about
2:27:01that these days?
2:27:01>> So two things I have two answers to that
2:27:03question. One is organically no I
2:27:06decided notic [laughter]
2:27:08>> yes let me tell you why it's not worth
2:27:10it. Yeah.
2:27:11>> So if those who have watched the
2:27:12documentary, many people have know that
2:27:14it's not even about I use as a point of
2:27:16view. I end it literally by saying it's
2:27:19not about it's just the one that's going
2:27:22viral. The is the symptom of a larger
2:27:24issue.
2:27:25>> Um
2:27:27but you see in Nigeria because of how
2:27:29it's like when people say when people
2:27:30are talking about my partation in the B
2:27:32campaign they say you were paid. I'm
2:27:33like that's just that's the stupid
2:27:34argument. The more important argument is
2:27:37how could you what you ask how could you
2:27:38know ining all his history have done
2:27:40this there how could we as a citizenry
2:27:43have made this decision what is it about
2:27:45us those are the important questions not
2:27:48this because of poverty everybody thinks
2:27:49everything is about money
2:27:51>> so when you talk about a candidate
2:27:53because we interviewed there's any
2:27:55documentary and I didn't release
2:27:57documentary until I interviewed her
2:27:58>> because I wanted her side and I want to
2:28:01interview Dean of course I was saying
2:28:02that in this Nigerian context I must be
2:28:04mad Because people think because I did
2:28:06documentary on her I hate her. I don't
2:28:08hate her. I understand her. I understand
2:28:10the country I'm born in. I understand my
2:28:12politicians.
2:28:13>> I understand that. I don't judge them
2:28:16>> because judging them will not do
2:28:17anything for me for the country. So the
2:28:19reason I won't do it is that once you do
2:28:22a documentary, people think you hate the
2:28:27larger point becomes lost.
2:28:30>> Do you understand? And my larger point
2:28:31is I want to point us to the deeper
2:28:33issues that affect the Nigerian soul.
2:28:36>> I want to use highprofile people to
2:28:37point it out, but it's really not them.
2:28:40It's the society that is sick. So
2:28:42because of that, it doesn't make sense
2:28:46for me to do a design documentary if the
2:28:48point is missed by partisans.
2:28:50>> Yeah.
2:28:51>> They turn it into PDP, APC, you work for
2:28:54this. I'm like, it's no point. Now, if
2:28:55somebody gave me the resources to do it,
2:28:58I'd do it
2:28:59>> because I love telling stories. And let
2:29:02me tell you, there are two things that
2:29:03were the honor of my life. Working on
2:29:05the 2015 campaign and doing the
2:29:07documentary. Let me tell you, there's a
2:29:09point where we're going to get on a
2:29:10dangerous boat to our village. I never
2:29:12felt more alive.
2:29:14>> I felt I'm doing the work I was made to
2:29:16do.
2:29:17>> And it makes me sad. If you criticize
2:29:20the film making, if you I'm like, that's
2:29:22fine. But if you just reduce it to PDPC,
2:29:25>> it irritates me because it's bigger than
2:29:27that. So that's the reason why I
2:29:29wouldn't do it. So now if you notice
2:29:31when I went to Obama, I was the first
2:29:32journalist on the scene when the kids
2:29:33were kidnapped.
2:29:35>> There was no villain.
2:29:36>> There was no Tinubu is Mind Day. I don't
2:29:39have the energy for that because people
2:29:41think those are those things don't make
2:29:42me money. But in this country because of
2:29:44who I am, people think, "Oh, you are
2:29:46doing it because you know you're trying
2:29:48to demonize the I'm like so it's boring.
2:29:50And that's why I wouldn't do it with my
2:29:52own money.
2:29:53>> Yeah.
2:29:54>> But if somebody if a Netflix
2:29:56commissioned it on Amazon commission it
2:29:57or BAT commissioned it or cannot plus
2:30:00I'd be happy to do because I really
2:30:02enjoyed doing that documentary.
2:30:05>> What lesson cost you the most that
2:30:07someone listening can now have for free?
2:30:10>> Listening to outside listening to
2:30:12people.
2:30:14[laughter]
2:30:15I love it. listening. Let me tell you,
2:30:18listening to people on Twitter will
2:30:20destroy you.
2:30:23[laughter]
2:30:24>> YES.
2:30:26>> THAT'S why we laugh.
2:30:27>> YOU DON'T HAVE TO TRANSLATE IT. I DON'T
2:30:29KNOW IF YOU CAN TRANSLATE.
2:30:31>> Listening to the people in the outside.
2:30:34>> That's way listening to other people's
2:30:36voices
2:30:38>> is the most wicked thing you can do to
2:30:39yourself. M
2:30:41>> I knew that I would be orders of
2:30:43magnitude more commercially economically
2:30:45successful if I had done things
2:30:48>> that I knew were right.
2:30:50>> Even if my friends on Twitter were
2:30:51attacking me, you know this now, right?
2:30:53Of course,
2:30:54>> you're not the top person. Don't worry.
2:30:56[laughter]
2:30:57>> ignoring the public is underrated.
2:31:01>> And do the joy retreat when people say,
2:31:03"Oh, what will society think this is I
2:31:05will quickly I'll give them 50 naira. go
2:31:08and buy me two bottles of society.
2:31:10[laughter] Say it doesn't exist. There's
2:31:12no real thing called society. It's just
2:31:14voices in your head. So people say
2:31:16Twitter is not a real place.
2:31:18>> They nudging to something true, but it's
2:31:20not completely true. Twitter is a real
2:31:21place cuz people make voting decision on
2:31:22Twitter. What they saying is that
2:31:24people's opinion is not a real place.
2:31:27>> Yeah.
2:31:27>> Before it was in the supermarket malls.
2:31:30It was comment sections. Now with social
2:31:32media, it's not a thing.
2:31:34>> It's not a thing. I made oh my god I
2:31:37have fought with one of the biggest
2:31:40regrets and I do have regrets in my
2:31:41life. People say they don't have
2:31:42regrets. I'm like something you must be
2:31:43a social. I have regrets one of the most
2:31:46powerful people in the world.
2:31:47>> I didn't do anything wrong to this
2:31:48person but I should have just kept my
2:31:50mouth shut
2:31:52>> rather than respond to somebody on
2:31:53Twitter.
2:31:54>> Because of that the person doesn't trust
2:31:55you anymore.
2:31:56>> Sure.
2:31:57>> Because you're trying to impress who the
2:31:59even found out that while I was
2:32:00defending myself these people just
2:32:01wanted me to move so they into the
2:32:03position.
2:32:04>> [laughter]
2:32:05>> And I'm like, and it's not even bad
2:32:07because you I didn't really do I didn't
2:32:09do anything to this person, but just
2:32:10shut up your mouth. Don't even explain
2:32:14yourself.
2:32:14>> Yes.
2:32:15>> Don't release stray bullets. [laughter]
2:32:16>> Yeah.
2:32:18>> So, I'm telling any young person for
2:32:19free, I don't respond to any comments
2:32:21like like let me tell you, I was doing
2:32:23an interview. This is an interview
2:32:25sometime and so and so. I don't look at
2:32:26my comment sections until they do a
2:32:28summary because I'm grateful. I don't
2:32:30want to be proud and be like, I care
2:32:31about comments. engagement is our
2:32:32business but I don't really need to see
2:32:34the individual comments. So we do a
2:32:35systems an analysis of this is where the
2:32:37comments is. I need to see people's
2:32:38comments because sometimes when I'm
2:32:40hearing things my fans are tell me so I
2:32:42did an interview people say it went
2:32:43viral. I went I was interviewed so I
2:32:46don't know people were tying it to Bhari
2:32:48whatever. I'm like this was a month I
2:32:50didn't know I don't know what you're
2:32:51talking about
2:32:52>> and I didn't I wasn't performing
2:32:54>> and and I realized that but it's true
2:32:56because whatever they say didn't affect
2:32:58me.
2:32:58>> Yeah.
2:32:59>> Because when actor was apologizing I'm
2:33:01like ah such a rookie. You don't know
2:33:03that this they don't you it doesn't
2:33:05matter explain yourself
2:33:07>> if that means if you have to wait for
2:33:08the public to have for your moral
2:33:10compass you don't have good friends
2:33:12>> before somebody criticizing you in
2:33:13public your friend should have told you
2:33:15that thing is that's it so that's what
2:33:17what you should do is now go and get
2:33:18good friends don't listen to so I'm
2:33:21telling you chica I can write an entire
2:33:22book about this [laughter] I made so
2:33:24many strategic mistakes building a
2:33:26business as a young person cuz I cared
2:33:28so much what my peers thought about me
2:33:30>> and now I don't Oh, that's why I wrote a
2:33:33book about it. [laughter]
2:33:34>> Yeah. No, I know. But before we do this,
2:33:36cuz it's very important, you and Adola
2:33:38Williams have been friends and partners
2:33:40for almost 20 26 years, right? I want
2:33:43you to talk about the value of
2:33:45>> playing [snorts] long-term games with
2:33:47long-term people.
2:33:48>> Oh, I love that.
2:33:51[snorts]
2:33:51>> I mean, the short answer is that it is
2:33:53the only type of game you really should
2:33:54be playing. Um Dea is my brother you
2:33:57know and and when you say interviews
2:34:03that we're like a married couple and I
2:34:04used to hate it as because I'm an only
2:34:06child so my individuality is very
2:34:08important to me but I realized oh that's
2:34:10that's that was like a marriage a
2:34:11partner business partnership is like a
2:34:13marriage you forgive a lot
2:34:15>> you forgive a lot [laughter]
2:34:18about marriage I'm like that sounds
2:34:20familiar to me he's my brother he's my
2:34:22friend he's my rider
2:34:25die.
2:34:26>> He's just he's just like, you know. So,
2:34:29and what I learned is and I was lucky. I
2:34:32didn't know that a great friendship was
2:34:33a great hack.
2:34:34>> When I became friends with Dala,
2:34:36>> I thought that life will just gain that
2:34:37we get good friends until they betray
2:34:39[laughter]
2:34:42until you know when I was young one of
2:34:44my board one of my man said. So, when
2:34:46you are betrayed in the future, I'm like
2:34:47I reject in just [laughter] so you
2:34:49cannot reject him.
2:34:51>> You will be betrayed. Yeah, even Jesus.
2:34:54[laughter]
2:34:56>> So, I was I got I struggled with Deba
2:34:59and now I know because I'm older now and
2:35:01I know and that's all I want to do. One
2:35:04of my the person I spoke to the most in
2:35:05a member of staff was with me for about
2:35:0714 years and just the freedom of being
2:35:09able to talk to him every day about
2:35:10anything, you know, and still have the
2:35:12boundaries respected. The greatest case
2:35:14is to have an employee that's like a
2:35:15friend
2:35:16>> who is still who still understands the
2:35:18boundary of an employee.
2:35:19infinite games, you know, the it's the
2:35:22only thing
2:35:23>> if the thing like we know if the thing
2:35:25that you are playing at has a limited
2:35:27time,
2:35:28>> you're not really on that level where
2:35:31you are doing something that's going to
2:35:32last a lot of time. So, yeah. So,
2:35:33investing in those things, trust,
2:35:36loyalty, [laughter]
2:35:38>> you know, faith in people. I mean,
2:35:40hiring [clears throat] a CEO is a
2:35:42fundamental act of faith. Your business
2:35:43that you own, you surrender the signing
2:35:45of the checks
2:35:47>> to somebody that's playing the infinite
2:35:48game. And I won't be able to do that if
2:35:50I didn't have a friend like Debola who
2:35:52learned taught me that a person who is
2:35:54not your family
2:35:56>> can be stronger than family.
2:35:58>> And there might be others like that in
2:35:59the world.
2:35:59>> You know how every week we sit down with
2:36:01people who've done it. People who've
2:36:03built, people who've led movements,
2:36:05people who've created culture. What if
2:36:07you could do more than just listen to
2:36:08them? That is why we built Convoy by
2:36:10Afropolitan. On Convoy, you're able to
2:36:12book one-on-one video calls with in-
2:36:15demand experts from Africa and the
2:36:17diaspora. Go to convo.vip
2:36:20to get access to your next mentor
2:36:22because sometimes one convo can change
2:36:24your entire path.
2:36:25>> So, I know the Afropolitan fam wants to
2:36:28know, okay, what does Chica and Etch do
2:36:31outside the couch, right? Sometimes we
2:36:32get to meet y'all in person, but a lot
2:36:34of y'all have a lot of questions around
2:36:36what do me do dayto-day? How do we
2:36:39manage our life? Some people even
2:36:41comment and say, "Oh, I didn't know
2:36:42they're married." So, we have a solution
2:36:44for that. I want y'all to follow us on
2:36:47Snapchat. And we're going to put down
2:36:49individually how you can follow me,
2:36:51Chica, and Etch on Snapchat. So, you get
2:36:53closer to us. You get to know what we're
2:36:55doing when we travel. You know, a lot of
2:36:57times we go to New York and LA to even
2:36:59record these episodes and really just
2:37:01get a chance to see behind the scenes.
2:37:03So, I want you to follow us on Snapchat.
2:37:05>> So, we're going to switch to our rapid
2:37:07fire segment presented by Yes. No,
2:37:11actually after the rapid fire presented
2:37:13by Glenn Morangi.
2:37:14>> [laughter]
2:37:15>> Uh, so you already know how it works.
2:37:17You watch the show. So, who is one
2:37:19person in the African creative economy
2:37:21who doesn't get enough credit?
2:37:23>> Kusbecka.
2:37:24>> Kusbecka.
2:37:25>> Yes.
2:37:26>> Okay.
2:37:26>> But that's too that's too
2:37:28>> high concepts. So, I'll say Funka.
2:37:30>> Okay.
2:37:31>> Kbeca is Nasp.
2:37:32>> Nasp. Okay.
2:37:33>> Dedicated with But doesn't get enough
2:37:35credit. People think she does, but she
2:37:36doesn't.
2:37:36>> Yeah, I I would agree with you.
2:37:38>> Yeah.
2:37:38>> Most expensive lesson you ever learned
2:37:40in three words? H
2:37:47f their opinions. [laughter]
2:37:52>> I love that. I love that. Okay. We
2:37:54always ask, "What's your favorite
2:37:55Nigerian food?"
2:37:57>> Um, bang and starch.
2:38:00>> Yes. And Delta. So, I
2:38:01>> I like something a little different.
2:38:03People always say jelloof fries.
2:38:04>> No, jello fries is boring.
2:38:05>> Beans or beans? They always say beans.
2:38:07[laughter]
2:38:08>> Okay.
2:38:08>> One thing you'd never do for money.
2:38:11H
2:38:14um there are a lot of things I would
2:38:15never do for money, but one thing is
2:38:19work for somebody that I don't respect.
2:38:22>> Have you ever worked for somebody you
2:38:23didn't respect?
2:38:23>> When I was younger, and so I I learned
2:38:25the hard way.
2:38:26>> Yeah.
2:38:26>> I [laughter] don't do it. No amount of
2:38:27money is worth it.
2:38:28>> Yeah. What does it cost you when you do
2:38:30that?
2:38:31>> Your self-esteem and your sense of
2:38:32reality.
2:38:33>> You don't even know. I worked with
2:38:35>> I can't say you don't say names.
2:38:37>> I worked with somebody very high up in
2:38:38this country. I just sit down in the
2:38:40office and I just nobody everybody
2:38:42everybody was doubting themselves and
2:38:44because of everybody was backbiting
2:38:46>> and then we say let us pray at the
2:38:47beginning of the meeting [laughter]
2:38:49>> but none of you like yourself and so
2:38:50what I didn't like was not you know you
2:38:52know what it means to feel your life
2:38:54>> every day you are gaslighting your
2:38:56intuition of your life
2:38:58>> yes it wasn't worth it
2:39:02I would never work with a person that
2:39:03>> even want maybe even respect no I never
2:39:05work with a person that makes me doubt
2:39:07reality Yes. No, I wouldn't.
2:39:09>> I walked away from a job like that once.
2:39:10>> Yes. Yes. You would know. Yeah.
2:39:11>> Because I don't know about you, but did
2:39:13you ever feel anger about that situation
2:39:15where you're like
2:39:16>> anger at yourself too? Really? Cuz it's
2:39:18like not even them. But like why do I
2:39:22>> Because I've learned how to divide
2:39:23division of labor. No, this person is
2:39:25the bastard, not me. You know, I was the
2:39:27wrong person there, not the person. So
2:39:28yeah. So, so but I can imagine how that
2:39:30happens because if your if your intu if
2:39:32your reality is gas lit,
2:39:33>> then you begin to question your own
2:39:35self. Yes. I'm just lucky that's not one
2:39:36of the things that has happened to me in
2:39:38that context.
2:39:39>> Yes.
2:39:39>> And what is a book that you recommend?
2:39:43>> Don't do that. Don't do that. I have so
2:39:45many books. Books. Books have changed my
2:39:49life.
2:39:52>> Okay. Braving the Wilderness.
2:39:54>> Oh, okay.
2:39:54>> By Breny Brown.
2:39:55>> Of course. Breny Brown. THAT'S HOW
2:39:57[screaming] THAT'S HOW IT SITS.
2:39:59>> OKAY.
2:40:00THE WILDERNESS. That is when I finally
2:40:03stopped caring what people thought.
2:40:05>> Is this is this the moment where she
2:40:06talks about belonging?
2:40:07>> Yes.
2:40:07>> Yes. Yes. That's literally that's my
2:40:08that's my status on WhatsApp. Yes. Yes.
2:40:10Yes.
2:40:11>> I belong everywhere and I belong nowhere
2:40:14nowhere.
2:40:14>> I belong to myself.
2:40:16>> Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep.
2:40:18>> So good.
2:40:18>> Yeah. Yeah.
2:40:19>> It's funny. Two of her books I'll say
2:40:21like you know cuz we're speaking the
2:40:23same language, right? Two of her books
2:40:25just helped shape my emotional IQ to be
2:40:28great.
2:40:28>> Yes, I read that.
2:40:29>> This this was the book we read in Kenya
2:40:31when
2:40:34I read every book.
2:40:35>> Yeah. Every single one. We read one.
2:40:37[laughter]
2:40:38Was so good. Anybody who is dealing with
2:40:40sense of identity and self and I quote
2:40:41her liberally in my book cuz she helped
2:40:43me build the base of my identity,
2:40:46>> you know. Yes.
2:40:47>> Sister Bnee.
2:40:47>> Yes. Sister [laughter] B.
2:40:49>> And then I have to give you this
2:40:51custommade.
2:40:52>> Thank you. I love it with my name on it.
2:40:55[laughter] But your name is on the
2:40:57bottle, too.
2:40:59>> Yes. As a collector.
2:41:01>> Thank you so much. Thank you very much.
2:41:03You know, like you know, one of the
2:41:04things too cuz with our brand sponsors,
2:41:06they really wanted to make sure that we
2:41:08honor you. [snorts] And you know, the
2:41:10the question we always ask is, "What
2:41:12else in your life has gotten better with
2:41:13time?" Cuz these bottles, I think they
2:41:15aged for like 10 years or stuff like
2:41:17Yeah. So, what else in your life has
2:41:19gotten better with time?
2:41:20>> With time.
2:41:21>> Yeah.
2:41:22Um,
2:41:25this is going to sound so jenzy. I hate
2:41:27it. [laughter]
2:41:29>> I hate it. You know when they say
2:41:30they're doing the work.
2:41:33>> Falling in love with myself.
2:41:35>> Ah, I love that.
2:41:36>> Chica, you know, cuz I read some of your
2:41:38know some things you read person, this
2:41:40person knows what they're talking about.
2:41:41They not [laughter] they're not
2:41:41cosplaying this.
2:41:43>> I know exactly. This year is the day I
2:41:45said my blood pressure literally went
2:41:47down
2:41:48>> because I suddenly woke up
2:41:50>> and decided that I'm not going to do or
2:41:53say things I don't want to do or say
2:41:54anymore.
2:41:55>> And that means that the people who make
2:41:58me do or say it, I love them dearly.
2:42:01>> Boundaries.
2:42:01>> I'll be there for them if they truly
2:42:02[laughter] need me,
2:42:04>> but they're not going to be around me.
2:42:06>> Boundaries.
2:42:07>> And I wake up [clears throat] every
2:42:08morning which is even in I said
2:42:10something on internet loneliness is an
2:42:11acceptable cause for peace. Yeah.
2:42:12>> And I'm not even necessarily lonely, but
2:42:14I'm trying to raise the
2:42:15>> stakes.
2:42:16>> And I'm like, I wake up in the morning
2:42:18and I'm like, I love myself. [laughter]
2:42:23>> I love it.
2:42:24>> Let me say this. There's something. Yes.
2:42:26There's something that may Angela used
2:42:27to say. There was an interview with
2:42:29Oprah, one of my best interviews ever.
2:42:30So, she says, so Opra asked my Angelo,
2:42:32"Oh, do you enjoy getting old?" She
2:42:34said, "Opra, [laughter]
2:42:37when I was in my 40s, I thought that was
2:42:39the best. Oh, then I got into my 50s and
2:42:43I thought I was having a blast.
2:42:44[laughter]
2:42:45Then I got into my 60 and oh Oprah, you
2:42:48should totally do your 70s and when you
2:42:51GET TO THE 80S, [laughter]
2:42:53you have such a blast. And then I used
2:42:56to think this my acting. But I realized
2:42:58that when you fall in love with
2:42:59yourself,
2:43:01>> when you truly you really get to the
2:43:03point where no matter what chica
2:43:05>> orche
2:43:07>> or every single person in this room
2:43:09thinks about me
2:43:11>> I approve of myself. [laughter]
2:43:15>> When you get to that every year and
2:43:18every day it feels like you're having a
2:43:21blast.
2:43:21>> It gets sweet and sweet.
2:43:22>> It gets sweet and sweet. What what are
2:43:24your thoughts on legacy? And this is
2:43:25like personal thoughts on legacy.
2:43:26>> Yeah, that's right. So before last year,
2:43:28this is one of the good things about
2:43:29talking. Talking helps you listen to
2:43:31yourself better. I used to say I don't
2:43:32care about legacy.
2:43:33>> Then my staff, my ex staff of over 15
2:43:35years organized a 40th birthday party
2:43:37for me.
2:43:38>> And I just stood there looked up and I
2:43:39realized, oh, I do care about legacy.
2:43:41>> Yeah.
2:43:42>> And my legacy and I realiz is the things
2:43:44I'm what am I proudest of?
2:43:47Every time I see people who and I'm not
2:43:50serious this is you know I know I know
2:43:52how this is going to make me sound like
2:43:54a saint
2:43:55>> you know some people are going to roll
2:43:56their eyes that's fine
2:43:59>> whenever I see people who my work with
2:44:04them not people that I show I like that
2:44:08>> change their lives
2:44:10>> employees partners you know I always
2:44:13share this story when uh bank was going
2:44:15to start teabar He was working for Y
2:44:18Niger at the time and just came to my
2:44:20house and he was saying and he said he
2:44:23shared this in public that's why I'm
2:44:24sharing it I want to start this blog it
2:44:26is and I was just going on I'm like so
2:44:29just start I need stuff I didn't know
2:44:32bank you need you [laughter]
2:44:34>> writing the first blog
2:44:36>> to start this anytime I see big cabal
2:44:39and the next week he started [laughter]
2:44:41>> if I see big kabal and I'm proud of his
2:44:44success I think of that conversation
2:44:46And I think nobody needs to know this
2:44:48but that's my legacy. Yeah,
2:44:50>> when I see my staff and I walk into an
2:44:52office I went to speak at an event and I
2:44:54introduced one of the members of red who
2:44:56is now head of business and I shared the
2:44:58story of when she was going to resign
2:45:00and she was crying in front of the
2:45:01office and I knew that she was going to
2:45:02be a star and so I called my other
2:45:04member of staff who is now head of meta
2:45:08which I say of meta which I say with
2:45:10incredible pride
2:45:12>> and I said come and talk to her because
2:45:14she's going to be a star but if I talk
2:45:16to her now because I'm the one that was
2:45:18upset with her and she came I talked to
2:45:20her and Brook was now number two in the
2:45:23red group.
2:45:24>> Wow.
2:45:25>> 12 years after when I look at her I
2:45:27think that's my legacy
2:45:28>> when I walk into a place and somebody
2:45:29says because of started my podcast
2:45:32>> that's my legacy and I know it's my
2:45:34legacy at least I think because I'm so
2:45:36proud of it. It makes me so so when I
2:45:40invested one of the first investies I
2:45:41announced for the fort mainland fund and
2:45:44I put up the post I didn't even know
2:45:45this my producer my longtime producer
2:45:48Shu Yi comes and posts and said CJ do
2:45:51you realize that the producer
2:45:54the director and the DP of this films
2:45:58worked in Y Niger
2:46:00>> it's crazy
2:46:01>> crazy
2:46:03that is what I consider to be my legacy
2:46:05>> it's so beautiful [laughter] That's so
2:46:08beautiful. Okay, I feel I feel like
2:46:11that's a very good way to end
2:46:13>> because you know the last question.
2:46:15[laughter]
2:46:16>> Who's the next person?
2:46:17>> Who's the NEXT PERSON?
2:46:18>> I'M A FAN OF THIS QUESTION.
2:46:21>> HE KNOWS THE SYSTEM.
2:46:23>> You know what where it's coming. You
2:46:24know, you know me. One of two people
2:46:26kindly or Linda K.
2:46:28>> Okay.
2:46:28>> The reason is that and there you see
2:46:30this people like Funka Linda they don't
2:46:33they know themselves completely. They
2:46:34don't care who doesn't know them, who
2:46:36doesn't respect what they've done.
2:46:37They're having fun.
2:46:38>> Yeah.
2:46:39>> But I think that a generation needs to
2:46:42understand that these are institutional
2:46:44builders.
2:46:47>> These are deep thinkers. I think one of
2:46:49the greatest things Nigeria has done
2:46:51>> is to hire Obia for the National Council
2:46:54of Culture because
2:46:55>> chatting with him last night,
2:46:56>> right? Because for a long time I thought
2:46:58people don't understand how big in his
2:47:01mind in his influence in his experience
2:47:02oba was. when she was hired,
2:47:06>> I blessed her Natu for that. I said,
2:47:08"You did this one."
2:47:09>> People like Linda and Fuka because then
2:47:12that replication
2:47:14are visionaries.
2:47:16>> These are our Shane Smiths. These are
2:47:18our, you know, uh, what's the Twitter
2:47:21guys founders name?
2:47:22>> Jack Dossi.
2:47:23>> Jack Dossi. These are our
2:47:25>> these are our visionaries that these are
2:47:28people that remade an entire industry
2:47:31>> in their image.
2:47:33And people of course love them and
2:47:35respect them but they don't respect them
2:47:37enough
2:47:38>> cuz don't understand how significant
2:47:41>> open a new bank in a country with
2:47:43advanced financial policy is not that
2:47:45great.
2:47:46>> Go and build a studio in a country that
2:47:49doesn't understand the economic value of
2:47:51studios.
2:47:52>> So Linda the fact that Linda is still
2:47:54winning till now you're calling the top
2:47:56Instagram blog still calling the K blog
2:47:59is a masterpiece of innovation. That
2:48:01thing that you keep talking, they keep
2:48:03talking about
2:48:04>> at Stanford, innovation, adjusting
2:48:07through errors. Linda is doing it
2:48:09without even knowing that she's doing it
2:48:10because she's like, "Okay, what am I
2:48:11supposed to do? Am I not supposed to
2:48:12innovate?"
2:48:13>> Then having her on a podcast like this,
2:48:15she is it's now to translate that
2:48:19>> for an entire generation that needs to
2:48:20learn from the masters and mistresses.
2:48:23>> Yeah.
2:48:25I'm going to go down
2:48:30[laughter]
2:48:32>> because I think that they don't get
2:48:34enough credit for what they have done
2:48:36>> for an entire industry.
2:48:38>> Amen.
2:48:39>> This was
2:48:39>> Thank you so much. [laughter] This was
2:48:41so much
2:48:46time. [laughter]
2:48:47>> Yeah. No, [clears throat] definitely.
2:48:48Definitely.
2:48:50This was good. This was great. Thank you
2:48:51so much.
2:48:53Everybody watching knows that I'm a fan
2:48:54of the show. [laughter]
2:48:57>> Thank you.

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