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The Dangers of Lectio Divina — Transcript

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0:00what is lectio deina what's all this
0:04about contemplative
0:06practice what is gnosticism and
0:10mysticism have you ever heard of
0:13perennialism today I'll take you on a
0:15journey that I experienced a couple
0:18years ago when an organization I was
0:20involved with started using some of
0:22these practices so I'll try to answer
0:25all your questions on contemplative
0:27prayer Leo deina Mystic ISM perennialism
0:31and all other questions surrounding
0:33those things let's get into
0:38this How firm a
0:42foundation ye Saints of the Lord is laid
0:47for your faith in his excellent word
0:53what more can he say than to you he has
0:59said to you who for refug to Jesus has
1:07[Music]
1:12flood welcome to firm foundation podcast
1:15my name is Richard Moore in this podcast
1:18I talk about everything that's moving me
1:20in relation to church and theology
1:23hopefully to empower you to build a firm
1:26foundation in Jesus Christ hey before we
1:29go any further if you would mind doing
1:30me a huge favor in clicking the like
1:32button hitting the Subscribe and
1:34smashing that Bell it helps us get this
1:36content out to more people thanks so
1:39much that's right folks lectio deina
1:42will be our topic today along with sort
1:45of side issues that relate to that
1:47contemplative prayer
1:49perennialism and the Mystic movement so
1:52let's jump into today I wanted to give
1:55you guys a view into what lectio deina
1:59is first def Define it and then describe
2:01it and describe the dangers I do believe
2:04on the front end that lectio deina is a
2:06dangerous practice that Christians
2:08should not be involved in from the front
2:11I'll just tell you where we're going
2:12today that's where we're going and I'll
2:14describe it and then we'll go into some
2:17details I'm connected in my missions
2:19work with so many different
2:21organizations and I want to show you how
2:24organizations all across the Christian
2:26Spectrum are starting to get into and
2:29practice lectio deina among other things
2:32contemplative
2:34spirituality and the light we'll focus
2:36today on lectio deina but again like I
2:39said these other experiences these other
2:42practices are very adjacent to lectio
2:45deina so let's jump in like I said I'm
2:48in my mission work I have touch with all
2:50sorts of different Christian
2:52organizations and lectio deina has come
2:55up as of late with a Vengeance I mean
2:58this practice is becoming more and more
3:00popular it is a little bit off the topic
3:03of my discussion that I typically
3:05discuss which is the New Apostolic
3:07reformation and its sort of uh movements
3:11and other uh issues related to that but
3:14this has lots to do with that I believe
3:17that contemplative life the
3:18contemplative movement is making Headway
3:21into the New Apostolic reformation and
3:24it is very very popular anyways
3:28listening to God the whole type that
3:30whole type of thing and so it is very
3:32related to my main topic which I
3:35typically deal with but this is uh extra
3:38special in that uh the progressive
3:41Christian also does this practice quite
3:45a bit and we'll have a look at that
3:48today so I was first alerted to this
3:50recently again I knew about it of course
3:52grow in Bible college going to Bible
3:55College you see all this stuff and
3:56you're you know the history of the
3:57church and so I'm aware of Leo deina
4:01since since then since Bible College at
4:03least and historical theology as well so
4:07we go through church history and those
4:08things and I knew that and and was aware
4:11of it of Leo deina as a practice but
4:13most recently uh I was became aware of a
4:17retreat from a mission organization that
4:19offered lectio deina as a part of their
4:23Retreat as matter of fact it was a
4:24silent Retreat and so they offered it
4:28and we'll go over what I experienc and
4:30how I um experienced that and experienc
4:33the materials for that Retreat and I
4:36will give you the people that they
4:38talked about the resources all that
4:41first of all let me just kind of lay out
4:43what lectio deina is lectio De is a
4:46practice where the participant seeks to
4:49immerse themselves in the text of
4:51scripture now from the beginning let's
4:53say that this is a noble effort a noble
4:56thing that people would want to immerse
4:58themselves in Scripture to understand it
5:00better to have a better grasp and uh but
5:04but the way in which it's done I believe
5:07is not spiritually safe for us it's also
5:11not prudent and it actually doesn't line
5:14up with common hermeneutical principles
5:17and hermeneutics is just the science of
5:20interpretation of ancient texts and we
5:24basically mostly apply the word
5:26hermeneutics to scriptural
5:28interpretation now there's a there's a
5:30particular science a way that the Bible
5:33ought to be understood and interpreted
5:35and I believe that Leo deina steps
5:37outside of that proper hermeneutical
5:40principle and how we ought to interpret
5:43the Bible I'll hopefully give you an
5:44idea of that today so Leo deina is this
5:47practice through which the participant
5:50visualizes or repeats or or or does
5:53repetitive reading of a text um as well
5:57as speaking or repeating div Divine
6:00words that they find in the text and
6:03everyone who practices this as I'm
6:04looking as I'm researching practices it
6:06sort of differently but many start with
6:09a form of preparation and in that
6:12preparation they invite God to speak to
6:15you or speak to the participant and
6:18prepare your mind by emptying your mind
6:22uh collecting your thoughts calming your
6:24mind Etc so again like I said there's
6:27many many ways to do it but most people
6:29do it with some step of preparation
6:32where they come to they open their Bible
6:34in some way and then invite God to speak
6:37preparing your mind by emptying it or
6:39collecting your thoughts or or calming
6:42yourself or or any other means of
6:44preparation of of centering yourself
6:47calming yourself which centering is also
6:49not a a a Biblical or a scriptural
6:52practice it is uh centering prayer which
6:56is also part of these things there's all
6:58sorts of
7:00practices that could be uh taken on in
7:03this practice so centering yourself
7:06coming to uh to rest coming to peace and
7:11all that type of stuff th those can be
7:13preparations within Leo deina then uh
7:17the participant does the lectio which
7:19actually I'm sorry to back up a little
7:21bit lectio deina means divine reading in
7:24Latin actually the name is sort of a
7:27misnomer is that this type of reading
7:31that you're going to be participating in
7:32is more Divine or more Divine than just
7:36reading it by studying it so that's
7:38already a misnomer in that you would say
7:41that I'm coming to the text and doing
7:43this practice it is more Divine or I
7:46will get more from God than I would if I
7:49just read it for what it says and that's
7:53a misnomer it's a it's a deception I
7:56believe actually because the scriptures
7:59are perspicuous there's a theological
8:03perspective called the perspicuity of
8:05scripture in which the text of scripture
8:08it says the text of scripture is
8:09perspicuous it's understandable it's
8:12clear God sends a message there's no
8:16hidden meaning that you have to unearth
8:18by digging digging digging it's
8:21perspicuous for all people all times at
8:23all places and so this is one of the
8:27main problems I have with this form of
8:30scripture reading is that it assumes
8:33that there is a more Divine way to read
8:35a text and that really lends itself to a
8:40few things it lends itself to a elite
8:42Christian Perspective that says well I
8:44have a more Divine reading than let's
8:48say Joe Schmo over there who's not doing
8:50lectio deina or reading he's just
8:52reading the text for what it says and so
8:55uh This lends to that I know it I'm have
8:58a deeper
8:59spirituality than that person over there
9:02so this is mainly the the overall
9:04overarching problem with this form of
9:08reading of the text so then they move
9:10into after they PR prepare they go into
9:12the lectio which is the reading so
9:14lectio dein the participant reads the
9:17passage on the first read and only looks
9:19for words that stick out um they just
9:23see what hits them basically and so
9:25they're looking for words though not
9:27necessarily what the word Al together
9:30mean which is also another improper
9:32hermeneutical principle if if I were to
9:34read a book of any type and I just look
9:37and I read you maybe a paragraph and I
9:39only look for words that sort of stick
9:41out to me I'm not actually understanding
9:44the entire meaning of what the author
9:47has written so if I'm just reading a
9:48book and I'm looking for information
9:51actually I'm it's a sort of an
9:52informative book I read it and I only
9:55look for words that stick out then I'm
9:57reading it improperly I'm reading for
9:59the message that the author is trying to
10:01communicate not particular words now
10:04particular words might put together a
10:07message but you have to put them all in
10:09context that's why context is King
10:13context context context is one of the
10:16most important hermeneutical principles
10:18you only understand scripture through
10:21its context and same goes for any
10:24reading if I'm reading any literature I
10:27have to understand the context first of
10:29all the context of where the author
10:31wrote maybe the context of who he's
10:33writing to his audience maybe I'm not
10:35his number one me audience then I have
10:38to understand the context within the
10:42context of what he's written say I read
10:44one chapter only that's just a part of
10:47the context of the entire book so
10:50context is king that's the principle of
10:53hermeneutics so when you actually read
10:54this and you read a the lectio the first
10:57reading that you would read of a passage
10:59of scripture within this Leo deina
11:01practice it is saying I'm taking the
11:04things that jump out at me and not
11:06taking the passage for the whole then
11:09the second reading you would read
11:10through a second time in the Leo deina
11:12practice and it was it's called the
11:13medito or the reflection or reflecting
11:17then the person reflects on what they
11:19believe God is saying so they take those
11:21Impressions those few words maybe and
11:25they try to understand what God is
11:27saying what they believe God is saying
11:29saying so Leo deina says not to fall
11:32into the Trap of Bible study as well
11:35don't just study it or study the Bible
11:37or read it as if you were studying it
11:40and so that's also a a challenging
11:42dangerous thing because a book whatever
11:46a book you H happen to read is trying to
11:49get a message so sometimes you have to
11:52study things and to understand what that
11:55message may be then comes the third
11:57reading so you after you we've read it
11:59twice now with this letio the first
12:02reading meditatio the second reading and
12:04then oratio comes the response either
12:07you journal or you respond in some way
12:09to God what God is saying by
12:12highlighting words from the text again
12:13this is where that first reading kind of
12:15comes into play you go back and say okay
12:17what were those words again and pull
12:20those out of the text and again this
12:23conflicts with basic hermeneutical
12:25principles that you would look at the
12:28text in the context and not try to take
12:31those things out of its context
12:33otherwise you might actually be
12:35misunderstanding the text of what was
12:38written there so when you actually take
12:41words out of its context or take even
12:44verses out of its context if you just
12:46take individual verses of scripture out
12:48of their context sometimes they can
12:50reflect or portray a meaning that is not
12:54reflected by the context so that's the
12:57danger of taking anything out of of
12:59context if you take my words out of
13:01context or another person's words out of
13:03context we're in the middle of the
13:05presidential elections and the the other
13:10parties are taking each other's words
13:12out of context and that's pretty typical
13:14because you know that that they're not
13:17really reflecting what they wanted to
13:19say and you're creating a meaning for
13:22that person's words of which they did
13:24not mean by taking them out of context
13:27so that's pretty typical in politics
13:29it's not a new thing in this election
13:32cycle friends I promise you um so
13:35politicians have been doing that for
13:37quite some time taking people's words
13:39out of context because they know that it
13:41can create a bad look for the political
13:44their own political opponent so that's
13:47um the problem here as well you take
13:49this atio then you respond and then you
13:52take these words and then the final step
13:54of of Leo deina is
13:56Contempo or rest or contemplation
14:00uh this is where the most participants
14:02are asked to spend about 10 to 15
14:04minutes in silent
14:06contemplation not saying anything
14:09listening opening themselves up emptying
14:11yourselves not talking only silence
14:13Allowing God to work so in Leo deina the
14:17chosen spiritual text is read four times
14:19in total giving an opportunity to think
14:22deeply about it and respond
14:24thoughtfully um when we practice like
14:27diina we can imagine were actually
14:29involved in the events of scripture
14:31that's another thing they try to ask you
14:32to do is to insert yourself into the
14:35text of scripture I received the program
14:38for a retreat that this Mission
14:40organization funny enough was putting on
14:42and they had a section of Leo deina
14:44involved in the program and in this
14:47program they asked the participants to
14:50place themselves into the text of
14:51scripture and the text that they had
14:54chosen was blind bartus and they asked
14:58the participants what does it feel like
15:00in Jericho Place yourselves there what
15:02is the what are the smells the tastes
15:04the touch what do you sense when you and
15:08then you see blind bmus and what do you
15:10sense what do you see what do you feel
15:12what do you hear all these things so
15:14placing yourselves in the text of
15:17scripture and I'll come back to that a
15:19little bit later Leo deina is a
15:22distinctly Catholic form of scripture
15:25interpretation Leo deina is a practice
15:28that has also produce Catholic
15:30theologies that evangelicals and
15:33Protestants disagree with deeply so why
15:36would evangelicals practice something
15:38that has produced Catholic mysticism so
15:42let's go over to my desktop here and I
15:44have uh lots of things to go through
15:47with y'all to show you what Leo deine is
15:52I found this as well this describing
15:56what I kind of just described to you
15:58this is is uh a Blog I take it and uh so
16:04one of the things that has become really
16:06popular here's a tool I found how to do
16:08the lectio deina prayer and and Bible
16:12reading and so it goes through and
16:14describes it and this was if I'm not
16:17mistaken I found this on the
16:21247 prayer website which is
16:25here let's go to the homepage 2 247
16:29prayer website so let's just go back
16:31real quick this is the homepage of the
16:33247 prayer
16:36movement which also has
16:39connections naturally of course to IHOP
16:43into the 247 Global prayer movement now
16:46this prayer movement the one that this
16:49website has relation to is Pete Greg uh
16:53was the guy who wrote this famous poem
16:56on the wall in a prayer housee that they
16:58had and here's the here's the prayer
17:01it's a vision you know we're untethered
17:04to things and you know this kind kind of
17:07thing every Soldier take a bullet for
17:10his comrade in arms we're waiting we're
17:12watching we're a better generation it's
17:15very very arrogant very very proud we're
17:18better than everybody else let me just
17:20actually read it to you so uh the vision
17:23the vision is Jesus obsessively
17:25dangerously undeniably Jesus the vision
17:27is an army of young people
17:29you see bones I see an army and they are
17:32free from materialism we are free from
17:35materialism no everybody else struggles
17:38with materialism not us not this
17:41generation which struggle with
17:43materialism I was part of the generation
17:44I remember when this
17:46started it's just laughable honestly
17:49sorry Pete Greg might be a nice guy a
17:52great guy but the the hubris is
17:54astounding we were all in that
17:56generation we were the most materialist
17:58real istic up to that point our Boomer
18:01parents gave us everything we wanted we
18:04had video games we had Nintendo the the
18:09the outset of video games was our
18:12generation okay so but people who
18:14involved in this prayer movement were
18:15free of materialism they laugh at
18:18nine-o-five little prisons again people
18:21have to
18:23work anyways they could eat caviar on
18:26Monday and crust on Tuesday sure sure
18:28they could they wouldn't even notice of
18:30course they wouldn't cuz they're above
18:33all of that you
18:35know they know the meaning of the Matrix
18:37I don't know what he's talking about
18:39that is he talking about the movie um or
18:41is he talking about getting stuck in
18:43that Matrix the yeah anyways the way the
18:47West Was one they are mobile like the
18:49wind they belong to the Nations they
18:51need no passport people write their
18:53addresses and pencil and wonder at their
18:55strange
18:57existence like we are homeless people we
18:59don't need place to
19:01live kind of all right I don't know why
19:04why this was such a powerful Vision to
19:07him I guess he thinks this is more
19:10biblical than not I don't know they are
19:14free yet they are slaves of the hurting
19:16and dirty and dying what is the vision
19:17the vision is Holiness that hurts the
19:19eyes it makes children laugh and adults
19:22get angry all right so yeah it gave up
19:25the game on minimum Integrity long go to
19:29research Reach for the Stars it scorns
19:31the good and strains for the best it's
19:33dangerously pure yeah
19:35so so much more so much more than the
19:38last generation the last generation
19:39wasn't dangerously pure
19:41enough it's just the whole I read the
19:45whole thing I just think we're better
19:46than y'all that that's just what it
19:48feels like to
19:49me um so I don't need to read the whole
19:52thing you can go read it it's on the 247
19:54prayer website but I wanted to point
19:57this out I wasn't even trying and I just
19:59came across this and then here's the
20:0124/7 or 25 years of prayer so they also
20:04claim as the IHOP does there was 25
20:07years of uninterrupted prayer which is
20:09not accurate there were portions and
20:11times and gaps when no one was praying
20:15but it
20:16also just let me just let it play for
20:18you the hubris that comes out is really
20:20amazing it's like no one was praying
20:23before we started 25 years ago no one in
20:25all of history prayed and so let's just
20:28have a look at this this is interesting
20:30it open up with this if the only prayer
20:33you ever say in your entire life is
20:35thank you it will be enough and that's
20:37from Meister
20:40eart start starts off on a wrong foot
20:43here we go Meister eart was a monk a
20:47Catholic priest a theologian in the from
20:501260 to
20:521328 he was born in gotha um in turingan
20:56in central Germany eart uh came into
20:59prom minist during the uh Aon papacy at
21:02the time of the increased tensions
21:04between the orders um Art's Dominican
21:08order and The Franciscan order in later
21:11life he was accused of heresy and bought
21:13up before the local Franciscan Le
21:15Inquisition and tried as a heretic by
21:17Pope John the 22nd um so interesting uh
21:21even in I mean of course people who are
21:24condemned Jan hus was condemned as a
21:26heretic and he was was not a heretic he
21:30was probably the most faithful man of
21:32the word of God in his day and age but
21:35so I'm not saying that just because you
21:36were condemned as a heretic means that
21:39you you know were a heretic even
21:42Catholics can't claim Meister eart he
21:44was a heretic he was condemned as a
21:46heretic so and probably died before he
21:49was even be able to be executed as a
21:52heretic he also is well known for groups
21:54with Pious lay groups as the friends of
21:56God this is also has uh influence in the
22:02IHOP and 247 prayer movement he has
22:04acquired his status as a great Mystic
22:06within contemporary popular spirituality
22:09and so people in the prayer movement
22:12people in the 247 movement people in the
22:15IHOP movement call on me eart a lot but
22:19I'm going to say he's a dangerous source
22:21for truth or for spirituality let's just
22:24I'm just going to say that and then even
22:26the quote if the only prayer you ever
22:27pray in your entire life is is thank you
22:29it will be enough so but the 247 prayer
22:32movement wants you to pray for 24 hours
22:34a day and 7 days a week so which is it
22:36is it thank you is enough and that's all
22:39you need to pray or you need to pray for
22:42247 just a
22:45question sometimes a moment seeds a
22:51movement and I think this if I'm not
22:53mistaken this is Pete Greg in the in
22:56this video here
23:00Jacob oh and then he says a place
23:02receives a certain Grace this is also
23:04part of the N so these these crossovers
23:06here uh n has special uh thin places or
23:12places with more grace than other places
23:15for instance bethl who might cover quite
23:17a bit is a place where there is thinner
23:20The Space Between Heaven and Earth is
23:21thinner it's a cancer free zone all this
23:24stuff and I've quoted all that at length
23:27Benny Johnson before she passed away
23:29said that bethl was a thinner place and
23:32that and all people throughout the N
23:34says there's places with extra special
23:37Grace on them so you got to go to those
23:39places so prayer houses especially have
23:41special Grace it's a little diversion
23:43from this idea but this is what he's
23:47saying in here there's places with extra
23:49special
23:50Grace and that's actually good that
23:52actually goes against what Christ said
23:54all right so let's just jump over here
23:55real quick to just show that there are
23:57no special extra special places where
24:00people ought to worship or that there
24:02are extra places with special Graces
24:04he's wrong that's a deeply deeply
24:07problematic Theology and here's why
24:09Jesus said to the woman at the well if
24:11you remember in John 4:21 he said to
24:14Heroman believe me the hour is coming
24:18when neither on this mountain nor in
24:20Jerusalem will you worship the father
24:23you worship what you do not know we
24:25worship what we know for salvations of
24:26the Jews but the hour is coming
24:28and now is here when true worshippers
24:31will worship the the the father in
24:34spirit and in truth for the father is
24:36seeking such people to worship him God
24:39is spirit and those who worship Him must
24:42Worship in spirit and Truth there are no
24:45high holy places anymore in Christianity
24:48there are no places with extra special
24:50Grace you can worship God right where
24:54you are right where you are and your
24:57church your where wherever your church
24:59family gathers where your Ecclesia the
25:02called out ones who Christ has saved
25:04wherever y'all gather to worship that is
25:08where you worship we don't have these
25:11places you don't have even your church
25:13building down the street if it has a
25:15steeple and a bell tower that is not a
25:17high holy place that is not the extra
25:20special presence of God place that is
25:22just a place to gather for worship of
25:25the most holy God the hour is coming and
25:28now is here true worshippers will
25:29worship the father in spirit and in
25:31truth not on this mountain or in
25:33Jerusalem Jesus meaning no extra special
25:37holy place all right let's go back to
25:39this video then celebrating 25 years of
25:41the 247
25:46movement okay so a place with extra
25:50special Grace for him was Penny Lane for
25:52the
25:53Beatles okay and then heren hood for
25:57Zinzendorf you mean the
26:00strange sexual
26:02cult Zinzendorf the more I look into it
26:05the more I find that that was also
26:09probably a quite an aberant movement and
26:12not a Christian move of God they were a
26:14cult and they you know made
26:17people worship and pray 24 hours a day
26:20seven days a week kind of like these
26:21guys so let's have a look further and
26:24like all the thousands of prayer rooms
26:26right now around the world
26:28pubs and clubs and churches festivals
26:31Cathedrals campuses and
26:35schools
26:37father I guess I'm still just bewildered
26:40still surprised still struggling to find
26:43the words to thank you for planting this
26:47movement 25 years ago and for what you
26:51have been planting ever since in so many
26:54places so many people all around yeah I
26:57think that's PE Greg the guy there with
27:00the seed imur more we could have asked
27:04or
27:06imagined back then before we started
27:09praying before red moon rising in the
27:11vision
27:14po you see you see the huus I don't know
27:17if you catch it but before we started
27:19praying before people were praying
27:21nobody was praying before
27:25this do you catch that I I hope you
27:27catch
27:28the extreme arrogance that this movement
27:33is the beginning of
27:35prayer and so yeah I caught that before
27:39I just watched it once this is the first
27:40second time I'm watching it so
27:43those come
27:44on before I beat the first Boiler Room
27:49Before classroom so boiler rooms were
27:52also part of the N um that became part
27:55of the N boiler rooms the 24 27 prayer
27:58movement the 24 the the 24/7 burn these
28:02are uh boiler rooms where uh worship and
28:05praise will happen 24 hours a day seven
28:07days a week Sean Foy is part of that um
28:11his his burn the burn 247 that's also
28:15part of this movement so these are all
28:16spin-offs and and connected uh
28:20adjacently not all connected straight
28:22away but mainly adjacently the boiler
28:24rooms are as as far as I understand it
28:2724/7 worship is taking place prays
28:32before we knew and
28:35monaster before we knew anything about
28:38monasteries abies Leo deina or anything
28:42and then here are people doing Leo deina
28:45apparently but let me go
28:49back so iisa was the is the island the
28:53party island for all the Germans Who
28:54funny enough all Germans go to Aba for
28:57for vacation I know a ton of people who
28:58go to
29:00Aba there's lots of clubs apparently and
29:02so they went to Aba to try to be
29:04missionaries and witness to people and
29:06great motives uh but this is what
29:09happened then before classrooms started
29:12turning into prayer rooms before we knew
29:14anything about abies and monasteries
29:16lexio deina the mustard seed order the
29:20mustard seed order that's also I think
29:23Franciscan order I don't exactly know
29:26true it all you've been Catholic utterly
29:29faithful utterly kind
29:33amazing so thank you Lord that for
29:3725 years you've been choosing to use
29:41idiots like
29:43us people without money Influence People
29:48Too Young and idealistic to know what we
29:50can't yet do that is very telling people
29:55too young and idealistic to even tell
29:56what they can do and that's how this
29:59movement the IHOP movement and the 247
30:02prayer movement have abused and
30:04manipulated youth with their passion and
30:08idealism to get them to be part of this
30:10thing and in my opinion it's abusive and
30:15they
30:16yeah asking people to pray at 3:00 a.m.
30:20and and fast and do all this radical
30:23radical stuff it's a Fool's
30:26errand God does not demand this of us he
30:30does not demand this of us this and this
30:32is the Leo deina app and so this girl is
30:34doing Leo deina and I'll show you that
30:36in a second they have a full thing on
30:39their app where you can walk through and
30:41do Le deina here she you know meditates
30:44anyit whatever for what you have been
30:47doing for a quarter of a century in us
30:50with us and through us and for
30:53us and in spite of us
30:56too but father it feels like we're just
31:00getting
31:01started got to keep going got to keep
31:04that thing moving you got to always 25
31:08years this turns out to be the
31:11beginning maybe it's time to take what
31:14you have given us and plant something
31:17new oh something new is coming always
31:21coming it's always around the corner you
31:24know you got to pull that pull the
31:26return it come on Jesus Jus and they
31:28actually say it they talk about it in
31:29this come on Jesus come on back we need
31:31you come on back and they always they're
31:34always around the corner it's always you
31:36gotta you
31:38gotta in German sorry I got to use some
31:40German to kind of give that effect you
31:43have to really really really try try
31:46really really really
31:48hard means to like extend
31:52yourself and put yourself way out there
31:56to try really hard to make something
31:58happen that's what they're
32:07doing urgency of the
32:14hour you raised us up for this moment we
32:17are the extra special ones that you have
32:19raised up now God does God raise people
32:21up certainly but there's this there's
32:24this elitism in this movement and that
32:26that's what Leo de to in my opinion Le
32:29de leads to an elitism that you hear
32:30from God extra special Al as that guy
32:34down the road he can't hear from God
32:36because I'm practicing something that's
32:38extra special that God really speaks to
32:41me through so still
32:46cry9 come on Jesus come on let your
32:50kingdom
32:52come come on
32:58on
32:59Jesus come on Jesus come back so part of
33:03it is just what IHOP did too now I don't
33:06know how much they're connected Pete GGG
33:07is connected with with Mike ble but they
33:10were trying to you know call Jesus back
33:14they believe that there's this that if
33:17the fire on the altar goes out that
33:19Jesus will not come back they are
33:22hastening the day of Christ there's the
33:24hastening doctrine that believes that
33:26Jesus will come back if
33:28we if we plead with him enough if we
33:31call him enough come on come on come
33:33soon here you go all this
33:37stuff and so now to him who is able to
33:41do immeasurably more than all we ask or
33:45imagine according to his power that is
33:48at work within us to him be the glory in
33:52the church and in Christ Jesus
33:55throughout all generations forever and
33:59ever
34:02amen so that's the 25y year prayer
34:06movement and um here is their website
34:10like I said with the vision and then
34:13here's the podcast they have 247 Hour
34:16podcast I'm going to go back to this
34:18page over here which shows the lectio
34:22365 app I guess it's an app not exactly
34:26sure yeah for iPhone for Android Daily
34:30Devotional app that helps you Leo the
34:32Bible read the Bible every day pray the
34:35Bible sorry the Bible is not meant to be
34:37prayed I mean there are sections that
34:39are prayers for sure and we we are we
34:42should be feel free to repeat those and
34:43pray those to God but it's meant to be
34:47read it's meant to be understood it's
34:48meant to be it's it's a teaching it's
34:51teaching tool anyways so this is Leo oh
34:54and look the Moravian fire what is this
34:58okay copying the moravians yeah just SC
35:02this is me just going through this the
35:03first time what is Leo
35:05deina so this is before he said they
35:08discovered Leo deina if they didn't
35:10Discover it it it they were looking for
35:13ways to go deeper and this is the thing
35:15you have to go deeper always going
35:18deeper deep the deeper life there's a um
35:21AB Simpson the founder of the uh
35:25Christian and Missionary Alliance talked
35:27about the Deeper Life there's always
35:29this deeper thing and and it really it
35:31really leads to spiritual elitism we're
35:33better than you and that's that's what
35:34you that when I hear this statement over
35:37here we're better we're Holier we don't
35:40care about the nino5 we don't care about
35:43materialism and it's just garbage like
35:45literally garbage look at the hipsters
35:49and all their I mean they're going to I
35:51of course I mean it's just it doesn't
35:55make any sense that they don't care
35:56about those things of course they do so
36:00um let's move on then here's the prayer
36:02tool Leo deina so I wanted to show you
36:04now the hollow app here this is just a
36:08this popup came up actually when I came
36:10on the website pray every day with 30
36:12days free and this is Jonathan roomy as
36:15well as some other movie stars and a
36:17Catholic priest I don't know who the
36:19Catholic priest I think is pretty
36:20popular I don't know his name but uh
36:22Jonathan if Jonathan roomy the Jesus the
36:25Jenkins Jesus prays with the hollow app
36:27then we definitely need to pray with the
36:29hollow app sense my sarcasm please do
36:32not use the hollow app I know I'm sorry
36:35some of you actually may be getting in
36:38this video a advertisement through
36:40YouTube from the hollow app I'm sorry
36:41for that I have no control over what
36:45advertisement comes up really no control
36:48and I think they probably realized that
36:50my material is religious and so they put
36:52the hollow app up there for sure and I'm
36:55sorry please please please if you get
36:57this I'm going to make an internal
36:59advertisement do not use the hollow app
37:03also don't use this lectio 365 app
37:06please please please do not use it the
37:09247 prayer movement Global prayer
37:11movement not just this 247 Pete Griggs
37:14which is the sort of the European 247
37:16prayer movement do not be a part do not
37:20it it is not necessary as a Christian
37:24now you may pray certainly I'm asking
37:27can you please please please please pray
37:30but do not be involved in these
37:32movements they have dangerous dangerous
37:35backgrounds dangerous theological
37:37perspectives Catholic perspectives the
37:39Mystic monks founded the thing and
37:42created it it is not Protestant it is a
37:46dangerous movement so please do not get
37:49the hollow app but the hollow app right
37:52here I'm going to click this off I
37:53wanted y to see that Jonathan roomy the
37:54Jenkins Jesus promotes the hollow app
37:58as well as other guys so how to pray
38:00with Leo deenet on their website here's
38:02Hollow how to pray and how to pray the
38:05Leo Latin translation Divine reading
38:08here you go here's the origin many
38:10historians and theolog theologians
38:11credit St bened Benedict of nura as the
38:14first teacher of the Leo deina St
38:17Benedict spoke to the importance of
38:19divine reading in his rule of St
38:20Benedict encouraging readers to live a
38:22life devoted to work and prayer
38:25especially through Reading however this
38:26method of prayer likely originated even
38:28earlier than the time of St Benedict who
38:30passed away during the 6th Century it
38:32wasn't until a few centuries ago that
38:34you could find a Bible in homes hotels
38:37Etc so forth yeah so here's where uh it
38:40says actually that the the practice
38:43started actually with St Gregory of
38:45Nissa in 330 to 395 and also encouraged
38:49by St Benedict so here's the hollow app
38:52please do not get it but this shows that
38:54they are doing it they are practicing
38:56this practice
38:58so we went over Meister eart also
39:01dangerous that the 247 prayer mov would
39:04quote Meister eard you see actually when
39:07I just look at these movements um the
39:09247 prayer IHOP Etc I see no reformed I
39:13see no
39:14Mainline Christian theological voices
39:18none not a single one I when in my
39:21coverage of IHOP and Mike ble and these
39:25movements I have never ever ever seen a
39:27quote from someone who is in the
39:30mainline Protestant Evangelical movement
39:34reformed or even on the left of the
39:38reform side I've never ever ever seen it
39:42so that just tells you something I I'm
39:44trying to think I cannot think of a time
39:47when I have ever seen someone even that
39:49would say that guy's Armenian or that
39:52guy is may be a little liberal within
39:54the Protestant Camp I've never ever seen
39:56them quote a Mainline Protestant leader
40:00historian Theologian
40:02Etc I can't think of one if you can
40:06think of one time where Mike ble or any
40:08of these guys in these movements in the
40:11Progressive Movement has quoted someone
40:13in the mainline Protestant Camp left
40:16Center or right please hit me up I'd
40:19love to see that that'd be great I've
40:21never seen it here's a quick history of
40:23Leo deina um this is the soul sheering
40:26website ite how to do lecto deina so
40:30here is one thing I highlighted down
40:31here I wanted you all to see this six
40:33centuries later guo guo a cian monk
40:38known for being contemplative and
40:39aesthetic that's another thing so the
40:42Bible's clear we do not have to be
40:45athetic now there may be some benefit
40:49for denying yourself for some reason but
40:52aestheticism is not necessary here's
40:56what it says in Colossians 2:18 it says
40:59let no and I'm going to keep pounding
41:01this I'm just going to keep pounding and
41:02pounding and pounding this till people
41:04get it till you you as my audience get
41:06it this scripture is so clear it says
41:10let no one disqualify you insisting on
41:13aestheticism if these movements 247
41:15prayer Andor the Catholic movement Andor
41:18the athetic monks insist on aestheticism
41:22they are trying to disqualify you how
41:25would they disqualify you they would
41:27disqualify You by insisting that works
41:30are necessary for salvation asceticism
41:33is not necessary they are trying to
41:36disqualify you insisting on works and
41:41they're insisting on the worship of
41:42angels going on in details about Visions
41:45puffed up without Reason by a sensuous
41:47mind how could someone disqualify You by
41:49saying that I saw this and that I went
41:52to the third heaven Mike ble claimed he
41:54saw all sorts of visions and dreams none
41:57of them happened he's a liar and so
42:01anybody who tries to disqualify you
42:03they're trying to disqualify You by
42:04saying you have to do certain things to
42:07be in relationship with God to be right
42:10with God to have certain Visions to
42:12believe my Visions those people are
42:15puffed up without Reason by their
42:17sensuous Minds so going back these
42:21people who insist on aestheticism known
42:23for being contemplative and aesthetic
42:25elaborated on St Benedict's practice of
42:27lectio deina he systematized the process
42:30of lectio with the four steps that form
42:32a spiritual ladder of intimacy with god
42:35let's scroll down here I think there is
42:37something down here the spiritual ladder
42:40so basically that that's what Leo deina
42:43in the end does I don't think that may
42:44be something I saw somewhere else but
42:46Leo deina in principle asks you to climb
42:50a spiritual ladder of intimacy with God
42:54that
42:55contradicts every everything that
42:57scripture says about salvation by
43:01faith not of Works lest any man should
43:05boast let's go over here here's the
43:07spiritual ladder I believe yeah gu guo's
43:10ladder of
43:11monks I mean this is it just gets Wilder
43:14and Wilder as I I just dig in a little
43:16bit today um an excerpt from the latter
43:19of monks so you reading the sweetness of
43:22the Blessed Life meditation perceives it
43:25prayer asks for it contemplation tastes
43:27it reading as it were puts food whole
43:30into the mouth this actually is saying
43:33that you have to do this type of Bible
43:35reading lectio reading to be nourished
43:39by the text of scripture this means that
43:41you would have to go through this
43:42process to be nourished and uh I just
43:46reject it uh so reading it will put
43:48Foods into the mouth meditation chews it
43:50and breaks it up prayer extracts it its
43:52flavor contemplation is a sweetness of
43:54itself which gladdens and refreshes
43:57reading words on the outside meditation
44:00on the pith soft inner part of the
44:03feather or the hair the essential part
44:05core prayer asks for what we long for
44:08contemplation gives us Delight in the
44:10sweetness which we have found so these
44:13four rungs yeah concerning these four
44:15rungs and you know the deeper you get
44:18into Leo deina the deeper you could get
44:20into all these practices and say well I
44:21need these things to be able to
44:23understand the text of scripture and uh
44:25this is the latter
44:27reading meditation prayer and
44:29contemplation like I said in the
44:30beginning I introduced that I think it
44:33was Leo medito
44:36arao um responding Contempo this is the
44:39four ladder method you're you're
44:43climbing your way to God basically so
44:47and uh so yeah that's that I found this
44:50as well as I was doing research so Chris
44:51rosebery over at fighting for the faith
44:53has done a dangers of Leo deina he has
44:56some lihe hearted moments where he tries
44:59to go through and do the lectio and and
45:01uh finds that he was doing a text where
45:04it says and Judas went out and hung
45:05himself and had to do Leo deina to
45:09meditate through that passage of
45:10scripture and that kind of could be
45:12challenging with this model you're
45:14supposed to pull out the wonderful
45:16nourishing things not the I mean what do
45:19you do with that text if you're doing
45:21lectio with it yeah so then here of
45:23course of course of course of course The
45:27Remnant radio fellas have on a lectio
45:30deina expert named Hans Burma he's a
45:34Catholic Theologian and so yeah so
45:36here's a few articles Master's Seminary
45:39has put an article I'll put these all
45:40these links in the show notes later on
45:43the Bible and Leo deine a helpful tool
45:45or a dangerous practice I found that
45:47article helpful I found this one
45:49especially helpful from Tim
45:52chal's over at his website a danger of
45:56lectio Vena and I definitely got a lot
46:00out of that so I will put that in the
46:02show notes now there's another one here
46:05as well this one was also a good one Leo
46:07deina what is it what is not and why is
46:10it a dangerous practice so that was
46:13helpful as well so I got my hands on the
46:15program of that Retreat that was
46:18incorporating lectio deina in its
46:21material and this was some of the names
46:24that were being promoted in that program
46:28and you can go find resources and stuff
46:31and I looked up Ruth Haley Barton she
46:34also is an author spiritual director
46:37teacher founder of the transforming
46:39Center so one of her visions and what
46:42she wants to do I care about the soul
46:45your soul my soul and the soul of our
46:47leadership she writes in her materials
46:50on her website encountering the richness
46:51of the broader Christian tradition in
46:54the midst of my own desire has led me to
46:56reclaim
46:57practices and
46:59experiences that spiritual Seekers down
47:02Through the Ages have used to open
47:04themselves to God's transforming work
47:08that is Ruth Haley Barton those are just
47:11little blurbs that that obviously show
47:14and you can go through her podcast
47:17speaking it's all this
47:20contemplative movement work so let me
47:23come out here and uh kind of go through
47:26some of my not notes of what I wanted to
47:28say today and um it has produced
47:31Catholic theologies so the Benedictine
47:34monks have gone through Leo deina and
47:36those the results of their study through
47:39Leo deina has produced Catholic theology
47:42which has pushed us further and further
47:45away from Solus
47:47Christus the sole work of Christ Alone
47:50in Salvation And so why would
47:54evangelicals why would Protestants even
47:57practice something that has produced
47:59Catholic mysticism that's my
48:02question uh another troubling aspect of
48:05Leu deina is taking one word of
48:08scripture out of its context and
48:10repeating it so they'll try to search
48:12for divine words in the text they'll ask
48:15you to take the Divine word a word and
48:18pull it out of its context and kind of
48:20meditate on that word and this goes
48:23against hermeneutical principles I'll
48:25put in the link in the show notes uh
48:28hermeneutics for dummies uh I did a
48:30video quite a long time ago about
48:32hermeneutics and kind of just some basic
48:35principles of how we understand the text
48:37of scripture what is the science of
48:39understanding hermeneutics is just the
48:41science of understanding ancient texts
48:44and so you do that on all the ancient
48:47texts of scripture trying to understand
48:49its meanings and so we do that in
48:53Christian the Christian faith we study
48:55the text of scripture
48:57and use hermeneutics to understand it
48:59and context is King that is one of the
49:02man I've said that already today in the
49:04show but you can't only interpret
49:07scripture with taking those text out
49:10those words out of its context words
49:12taken out of their context and repeated
49:14as Divine words basically belongs to
49:16Eastern mysticism and not to Christian
49:19practice individual words have no more
49:22Divine Authority than the whole context
49:25of what the authors were meaning when
49:28they tried to communicate when they
49:29tried to write scripture like I said an
49:31author writes a book they don't mean to
49:33write a whole paragraph to give you one
49:36word they're trying to communicate and
49:38convey something with the whole of the
49:41text not one word out of the text now
49:45there are words that are important of
49:46course in understanding the whole that's
49:49why we look at our Greek and try to
49:51understand the Greek as well because
49:54that's holds a let's say a a uh more
49:57fundamental meaning when we have it
50:00translated it can lose some of its
50:02effect and lose some of its meaning same
50:03thing in German and English I speak
50:05German and English and when I try to
50:07translate stuff from German it's very
50:10difficult because you sometimes can't
50:13get it like a one for one meaning and
50:16there's cultures and languages and all
50:18all that same stuff so that's why it's
50:19very helpful to understand Greek Hebrew
50:22and portions of scripture are written in
50:24Aramaic but uh we can go to the those
50:26are ancient texts and look at those
50:29words sometimes the words together look
50:31at that in the con Fuller context and
50:33that helps us understanding you can't
50:35take a word out of its context and that
50:38word does not have deeper meaning than
50:41the words alog together or is not more
50:44Divine than another word in that context
50:47so Leo deina found strong support among
50:50the Ben Benedictine Aesthetics like I
50:52like we talked about and Roman Catholic
50:55Mystics and his current Curr ly employed
50:57by such modern-day Heretics as Richard
50:59roar I am planning on doing a whole
51:03handling of Richard Roar and his
51:04teachings there's lots out there but I
51:06came across Richard Roar several years
51:08ago myself and the first person the
51:11first time I ever came across it was in
51:13a meeting where someone was teaching and
51:16they quoted Richard Roar and then
51:18someone came up afterwards to me in the
51:20meeting funny enough because they knew
51:22my writing and knew my book and were
51:23very appreciative of my book Divergent
51:25Theology and they said Richard how could
51:28this person this speaker use Richard
51:31Roar he's a heretic that's what they
51:34said to me and I was like okay you know
51:36I mean I'd heard of him a little bit but
51:39I mean actually I thought me he's
51:41Catholic so he started a Catholic uh
51:46monastic order and so I thought yeah of
51:49course well what what do we need to even
51:51worry about him for because and she was
51:53actually saying you should really look
51:55into him please Richard look into him he
51:57is making a huge impact on evangelicals
52:01he has huge influence with Evangelical
52:04thinker thinkers and or progressives and
52:07so his movement is well employs Leo
52:12deina we should really take take heed of
52:15that if we do not agree with their
52:17Doctrine with Richard roar's Doctrine
52:20how can we freely employ a methodology
52:23that they use to produce it theolog
52:26ological ideas have consequences and
52:28methodologies that produce these
52:30theologies cannot be disassociated from
52:33their
52:34methodologies here I I thought it might
52:36be interesting to deal with a portion of
52:39my book that I quote and talk about
52:42contemplative and
52:44meditative Christianity or contemplative
52:47and meditative spirituality I don't
52:49actually want to call it Christianity so
52:52here let's go over here I have a long
52:53quote from my book some other n
52:56practices are contemplative or
52:58meditative where they teach emptying the
53:00mind or repeating one word from the
53:02Bible such as Leo deina which is not a
53:06historical Christian meditative practice
53:08meditation for the Christian is filling
53:10our minds with scripture some of these
53:13practices include chanting and soaking
53:15which are taught in bethl so schools Soo
53:19Ministry Soo is the Greek word
53:21translated saved healed and delivered
53:23and some of youall have gone through Soo
53:24you're actually asking me to deal with
53:26with Soo and cover it I've got lots of
53:29stuff on the on the burners but I we'll
53:31try to get to it uh according to their
53:34website uh it means this this Greek word
53:37I remember when soaking centering and
53:39contemplative prayer sprung up out of
53:41the Toronto blessing movement John and
53:43Carol AR not in around 2005 launched
53:46this idea and certified other prayer
53:48centers worldwide the N has
53:51wholeheartedly adopted this practice and
53:54now many n churches are Ste deeped in
53:56the practice of contemplative centering
53:59or soaking prayer these practices have
54:02added mystical experiences to the blood
54:04of Christ when we add contemplative
54:07prayers soaking prayers labyrinths the
54:11silence which also is practice in in Leo
54:15deina centering prayers breath prayers
54:17or any other additional work to Faith we
54:20demean Grace and slip back into Faith
54:23built on Works only the blood of Christ
54:26can Usher us into the presence of God as
54:29shown in Hebrews 10:19 I have a few
54:32observations at this point about soaking
54:34or centering prayer first soaking
54:36centering is a new age OCC cult-like
54:40practice and historically not accepted
54:42as a practice in
54:44Christendom but rather often been
54:46rejected for instance within Gnostic
54:49mysticism irus book against heresies
54:52deals with this quite at length was one
54:54of the first Christian books written the
54:56first book was against heresies second
55:00these practices open people up to all
55:03sorts of spiritual powers that could be
55:05demonically influenced thirdly there is
55:08an order of worship laid out for us in
55:10the New Testament that we should he to
55:12and soaking prayer centering prayer or
55:15meditative prayer is nowhere found in
55:18that order of worship fourth meditation
55:21is meant to be practiced by faithful
55:23Christians but not the forms of
55:25meditation that are taking place in
55:27soaking prayer where participants empty
55:31themselves and use sacred words mantras
55:35they empty their minds they receive
55:37healing from his presence etc etc
55:40Christian meditation is Holy other we
55:43are commanded to fill our minds with his
55:46word we fill it we don't empty it and
55:48prayer and telling God his worth which
55:50is worship the psalmist showed us how
55:54Christian meditation operates when he
55:56wrote on his law he meditates day and
56:01night so I just wanted to share that
56:04section of my book with you because I I
56:07feel like that is really helpful in
56:09understanding what the Christian
56:11practice actually is because there is a
56:14Christian practice of meditation and how
56:17these other forms of meditation are
56:19actually dangerous for us I want to read
56:21another section quickly of my book uh by
56:24Miller I quoted Miller J Eric on his
56:27definition of gnosticism gnosticism was
56:30an early heresy that has always kind of
56:33followed the church and in different
56:35forms come back in the church and reared
56:37its ugly head so here's how he defines
56:40gnosticism the Gnostic position asserts
56:42that over and above the simple gospel
56:45which is all the ordinary Spirits can
56:47understand there is a secret higher
56:49knowledge reserved for an elite it is
56:53natural enough for people to ask more
56:55questions than the gospel answers the
56:57Gnostic movement attempted to give the
56:59answers and did so by drawing on
57:02religious sources alien to Christianity
57:06and amalgamating them with elements of
57:09the Gospel Faith so nosism is
57:12particularly devastating to the message
57:15of the gospel because it says that there
57:17is a higher knowledge reserved for an
57:21elite this flies in the face of the
57:23simple gospel that everyone no matter
57:26status in the world can comprehend
57:30receive and Trust the Everlasting
57:33Gospel of Jesus
57:36Christ The Gospel message and the
57:38message of scripture are for all men not
57:41an Elite Class of people who have the
57:43ability to uncover it and its
57:47Mysteries despite the acknowledgement of
57:49gnosticism heretical History its ideas
57:53of Insider Secrets continue to this day
57:56and our practice obviously here in this
58:00practice called lectio deina in which
58:03people try to uncover secrets in the
58:06text of scripture and then even record
58:09them like in their Diaries so gnosticism
58:11relates to lecto deina because it is the
58:15same principle you're trying to uh
58:19understand the secrets of the Kingdom so
58:21there are more problems I have with Leo
58:23deina it often tried to picture where
58:26Jesus was in the room or in the storm or
58:29in the Steep path or in a boode etc uh
58:32in this actually this program that I got
58:35my hands on which had Leo deina as part
58:38of its program offered you to the
58:42participants to try to picture yourself
58:44in all the stories of Christ this is
58:48very problematic what we can do if we do
58:51this if we try to imagine ourselves in
58:54the pages of scripture we emot aliz and
58:57actually decouple our Christian Life
59:00from the life of the authentic Christ we
59:02can imagine something that might not
59:05have happened the only authentic Christ
59:07that we can find is in the pages of
59:10scripture so if we say well Jericho must
59:14have been like this if you imagine
59:17yourself you can actually create an
59:20identity create a Christian Life coupled
59:24to A Jesus Christ that you have imagined
59:28that did not exist so the only true
59:31authentic Christ that we can know and
59:35worship is found in the pages of
59:37scripture so if you try to just imagine
59:40what it might have been like even if
59:43it's
59:44plausible then you might actually be
59:47imagining something that did not happen
59:50and the Christ who does not exist he's a
59:52figment of your own imagination the
59:55Jesus of our imagination may be similar
59:58to the Jesus of scripture but mostly
1:00:00private Revelations of Jesus diverge
1:00:03deeply from the Jesus revealed in
1:00:05scripture if you've been following my
1:00:06show you've hopefully seen the coverage
1:00:08I have of Mike ble and IHOP and I went
1:00:11through lots of his sermon material in
1:00:14those episodes and every single time he
1:00:17had a vision of Jesus Christ it was
1:00:19different than the Christ of scripture
1:00:22similar but different it was and the
1:00:24reason I can say with one 100% assurance
1:00:28that Mike bickle's Visions were false
1:00:31Andor figments of his own imagination
1:00:34were that they did not they diverged
1:00:36from who Christ
1:00:39was and created experiences and things
1:00:44like an asp like a snake falling from
1:00:47the ceiling in his office that is not
1:00:50the we we just can say beyond a shadow
1:00:53of a doubt those Visions did not happen
1:00:55he did not go to heaven and and the like
1:00:58so when you imagine Jesus in a certain
1:01:02way you put yourself
1:01:04into you project yourself actually into
1:01:08the text of scripture into the story of
1:01:10the pages of scripture you have possibly
1:01:13created a Jesus that does not exist just
1:01:17like Mike ble did and just like all
1:01:19these other
1:01:20Mystics so listening to God letting God
1:01:23talk and recording what he says this is
1:01:26also tantamount to individual private
1:01:30revelation we think of the book that
1:01:32Jesus call which was actually written
1:01:35because she wanted more from the text of
1:01:37scripture she did the text of scripture
1:01:39was not enough she wanted more from
1:01:41Jesus and so Jesus in her own Sarah
1:01:44Young her own ideas wrote down the text
1:01:47of what Jesus was saying to her and in
1:01:50the end she has Jesus talking to her so
1:01:54what is that that if Jesus is saying
1:01:57anything and he is actually speaking
1:02:01then it's tantamount to scripture if the
1:02:04true Jesus the Jesus that is in heaven
1:02:06sitting at the right hand of the Throne
1:02:08of God is speaking to someone and they
1:02:11are also then writing it down and
1:02:13Publishing it giving it to a broad
1:02:16audience then that is equal or tant
1:02:19amount to scripture it must be because
1:02:21Jesus speaks when God speaks it is his
1:02:26word his Eternal Word and should be
1:02:29understood then as scripture there's no
1:02:32difference but we know most of these
1:02:35private Revelations diverge deeply from
1:02:37the revealed Jesus of scripture same
1:02:39thing with Sarah Young many of the time
1:02:42I think there's four or five instances
1:02:45where Christ said something or did
1:02:46something in her book The Jesus calling
1:02:49that really contradicts the Christ of
1:02:52scripture so listening to God letting
1:02:54God talk and recording what he says this
1:02:57is tantamount to individual private
1:02:59Revelation when you record what God has
1:03:02said to you in your lect deina you could
1:03:05easily place that Revelation on par with
1:03:08the revelation of scripture often Leo
1:03:11deina participants are instructed not to
1:03:13evaluate or judge the validity of the
1:03:16messages they receive trying not to
1:03:19discern or judge if something has come
1:03:21from God or not is very problematic
1:03:24discernment is Noble and a Godly
1:03:26characteristic as seen in the bereans in
1:03:30Acts 17 um Ephesians 5 first John 4
1:03:34talks about discernment Romans 12 1 and2
1:03:38Philippians 1 9-10 discernment is a
1:03:42noble noble thing and it's actually a
1:03:45spiritual gift in the New Testament so
1:03:49yeah let's take for instance an extreme
1:03:52case if a participant of Leo deina had
1:03:55the the feeling that God told them to go
1:03:57harm someone or commit a crime or some
1:04:01kind of immoral thing would that not be
1:04:04called into question turning off your
1:04:07evaluation and judgment are deeply
1:04:10problematic because they're asking you
1:04:12not to judge if God has spoken to you or
1:04:15not and actually just accept all
1:04:18messages as if God is unequivocally
1:04:20speaking to you this is very problematic
1:04:24again because I said the one of the
1:04:26spiritual gifts the holy spirit gives to
1:04:28people when they are saved one of them
1:04:30not everyone probably has this gift is
1:04:33the gift of discernment and if you don't
1:04:36have if you if you actually have the
1:04:38gift of discernment and Leo deino asks
1:04:41you to turn off your discernment turn
1:04:43off your judgment don't judge whether
1:04:45God has spoken to you or not this could
1:04:48be very problematic often Leo deina then
1:04:52ask the participants to ask God to
1:04:54confirm the validity of these messages
1:04:57how does one do that outside of the
1:04:59scripture how does God validate a
1:05:01personal message this is very very
1:05:04subjective most personal messages quote
1:05:07unquote from God in any sense are
1:05:10unverifiable often because the personal
1:05:13nature of them such messages cannot be
1:05:15verified in the pages of scripture
1:05:17namely because of their personal nature
1:05:20they're directed at the person's
1:05:22profession private life Family Life Etc
1:05:27where can such things be verified in the
1:05:29Bible that they just can't because it's
1:05:32personal to you Leo deina also uh asked
1:05:36participants to Center or tune into
1:05:39Jesus that was also in the materials
1:05:41that for this Leo deina Retreat and how
1:05:45do we do
1:05:46that we have to tune in to the right
1:05:50frequency um to have to get the same
1:05:53wavelength as Jesus this adds also works
1:05:57to Faith how do we tune in actually what
1:06:01radio station can Jesus be found on is
1:06:04Jesus on am or FM bandwidth or maybe
1:06:08he's actually on a microwave bandwidth
1:06:11not even on am or FM how do we Center or
1:06:14tune in these are actually Eastern
1:06:17meditative practices so again let's go
1:06:20back over here to Ruth Haley Barton she
1:06:25is
1:06:26often cited and used as a resource in
1:06:29Leo deina for instance I saw a
1:06:32contemplative program provided by an
1:06:35Evangelical Mission Society another one
1:06:37and Incorporated Leo Leo deina and Ruth
1:06:41Haley Barton's citations and resources
1:06:44so she's got lots of books she's written
1:06:46books over here embracing The rhythms of
1:06:49work and rest from Sabbath to sabatical
1:06:52and Back Again strengthening the soul of
1:06:55your lead leadership invitation to
1:06:56retreat I'm not sure if she has Leo
1:06:59deina stuff in
1:07:01there pursuing God's will together
1:07:04sacred rhythms I'm sure that has Leo
1:07:08deina stuff in it sacred
1:07:11rhythms invitation to Solitude and
1:07:15silence all these things have Leo deina
1:07:18type principles and she is quoted and
1:07:21cited quite often another mission leader
1:07:25talking to one of his missionaries and
1:07:28recommending Ruth Haley Barton for the
1:07:32material to come into Solitude quiet
1:07:36places Etc so like I said Ruth Haley
1:07:39Barton on her website there says we
1:07:41should reclaim practices and experiences
1:07:43that spiritual Seekers down Through the
1:07:45Ages have used to open themselves to
1:07:48God's transforming work by reclaim
1:07:50practices I'd be pretty sure she's
1:07:52talking about reclaiming the Catholic
1:07:54tradition the Benedictine monks the
1:07:56monastic orders and all this where Leo
1:08:00deina comes from So within a Ruth Haley
1:08:03Barton's bio she says she was affected
1:08:07and influenced by The shalum Institute
1:08:10for Spiritual formation here is that
1:08:14website The shalum Institute and on the
1:08:18shalum institute's website they say
1:08:21shalum Institute is grounded in
1:08:22Christian contemplative spirituality and
1:08:25at the same time draws on the wisdom of
1:08:27Many religious traditions we welcome you
1:08:30wherever you are on the path of
1:08:32spiritual Discovery first of all by this
1:08:35I'm pretty sure she's talking about
1:08:37Catholic mysticism and maybe they are as
1:08:39well the Benedictine tradition where Leo
1:08:42deino comes from on their website here
1:08:45shalum talks about communities of men
1:08:48and women who gather around the presence
1:08:50of Christ for the purpose of spiritual
1:08:52transformation in order to discern the
1:08:55will of God it says the presence of
1:08:57Christ is where they seek to gather
1:08:59around to discern the will of God but
1:09:01the question is how can you discern the
1:09:04will of God how can you discern the
1:09:06presence of Christ do you know it's the
1:09:08presence of Christ my understanding of
1:09:12how we can discern the will of God is
1:09:14Sola scriptura and the sufficiency of
1:09:17scripture we can know the will of God
1:09:20through his word scripture says it
1:09:23clearly we have everything we need for
1:09:25life and godliness it is all we need we
1:09:30need not add or take anything away from
1:09:33any contrived presence of Christ you
1:09:36might just get warm and fuzzy feelings
1:09:37and say that's the presence of Christ
1:09:40every person who calls himself a
1:09:41Believer has the presence of Christ with
1:09:44them already you don't have to go
1:09:47searching after you don't have to go
1:09:48seeking after it you don't have to go
1:09:49finding it and it says in the scriptures
1:09:52and lo I am with you always even to the
1:09:56end of the age or where two or more are
1:09:58gathered in my name there I am among
1:10:01them Christ said all these things we
1:10:03cannot conjure it up create an
1:10:06atmosphere for it duleo deino long
1:10:08enough in the scriptures we have all we
1:10:11need for every good work when we renew
1:10:13our minds with it we are able to test
1:10:16and approve what God's will is his good
1:10:18pleasing and perfect will says it in
1:10:20Romans 121 and2 and in uh 1 Timothy we
1:10:24see what scripture is and what its
1:10:27effect is it says it here in 1 Timothy
1:10:303:14 but as for you continueing what you
1:10:33have learned and have firmly believed
1:10:35knowing from whom you learned it learned
1:10:37it from his grandmother and his mother
1:10:39and how from Child you you have been
1:10:41acquainted with the sacred writings of
1:10:43the Holy scriptures which are able to
1:10:45make you wise for salvation through
1:10:48faith in Jesus Christ that's what the
1:10:50holy scriptures are useful for they're
1:10:52able to make us wise unto salvation
1:10:56and then he says what scripture is here
1:10:58this is the nature of scripture all
1:10:59scripture is breathed out by God and
1:11:02profitable for teaching for reproof for
1:11:05correction and for training in
1:11:07righteousness that the man of God may be
1:11:10complete or thoroughly equipped for
1:11:14every good work we have everything we
1:11:16need we can be completed we can be
1:11:18thoroughly equipped for
1:11:20everything and then um he says what to
1:11:24do with the word and we miss that we you
1:11:26know sometimes we just read verse 16 and
1:11:28we don't jump to chapter 4 Paul says to
1:11:31and charges Timothy I charge you in the
1:11:33presence of God and of Christ Jesus who
1:11:36is to judge the living and the dead and
1:11:37by his appearing in his kingdom preach
1:11:40the word be ready in season and out of
1:11:43season reove rebuke and exhort with
1:11:47complete patience and teaching for the
1:11:49time is coming when people will not
1:11:51endure sound teaching having itching
1:11:53ears they will accumulate for them M
1:11:55themselves teachers to suit their own
1:11:56passions and this is actually what is
1:11:59happening in Leo deina people are not
1:12:01satisfied with sound teaching they won't
1:12:05endure it it says right here they will
1:12:07not endure sound teaching but having
1:12:10itching ears they want to something to
1:12:13sound lovely to them something to tickle
1:12:16their senses to suit their own passions
1:12:20they will gather together
1:12:23themselves accumulate El people who will
1:12:26suit their own passions that's actually
1:12:28what's happening in Leo deina it's not
1:12:30enough the Bible's not enough even Sarah
1:12:32Young Who wrote the Jesus Calling she
1:12:36said it was not enough she wanted more
1:12:39she was looking for more and she wanted
1:12:41to suit her own passions in the end the
1:12:43question is is Christ and his word
1:12:46enough for you is it sufficient do you
1:12:50believe that God through the writers of
1:12:53scripture has given you everything you
1:12:55need or do you actually think you need
1:12:58more are you content with what God has
1:13:02given you is the question is really what
1:13:03it comes down to so here this shalum
1:13:06institute basically says um we draw from
1:13:10the wisdom of Many religious traditions
1:13:13and that is perennialism perennialism is
1:13:16the belief that all religions share one
1:13:18common truth or Divine reality and come
1:13:22from the same core truth or Source no
1:13:27matter how different they appear
1:13:28externally different religions they have
1:13:31the same core truth in this idea of
1:13:34perennialism God is usually spoken of in
1:13:37the abstract terms or abstract forms
1:13:40like presence the Divine the one
1:13:44perennialism also teaches that there is
1:13:46a Divine reality underneath and inherent
1:13:48in the world of things there is the
1:13:51human soul or natural capacity similarly
1:13:54and long longing for this Divine reality
1:13:57and finally the god of existence is
1:14:00Union with Divine reality these are all
1:14:03ideas in perennialism which stand
1:14:06completely opposed to Christian belief
1:14:08and the exclusivity of Christ so that's
1:14:13perennialism this is shalum Institute
1:14:16who promotes
1:14:17perennialism and it is not a part of the
1:14:22Christian Life and practice that is a
1:14:25dangerous dangerous belief drawing on
1:14:29the wisdom of Many religious
1:14:32Traditions so again these movements and
1:14:35contemplative spirituality draw on Many
1:14:37religious Traditions meaning other
1:14:39religions new age and ultimately OCC
1:14:41cult-like practices also on their
1:14:43website they say living contemplatively
1:14:46is essential in today's often chaotic
1:14:48and challenging world it's a way to live
1:14:50a truly authentic life anchored in
1:14:52prayer spiritually Discerning and
1:14:54responsive to God so again the huus
1:14:57comes forward they're only if you live
1:14:59contemplatively you're only living the
1:15:01truly authentic life no one else is
1:15:03authentic except those who engage in Leo
1:15:07deina or contemplative lives so that is
1:15:11also where the hubris and the extreme
1:15:15pride and the arrogance come in that
1:15:18they are only alone able to live truly
1:15:22authentic lives so that's the Shay
1:15:25Institute and that um these two people
1:15:29authors this author Ruth Haley Barton is
1:15:34offered up as great resources in the Leo
1:15:38deina practice and shalum Institute is
1:15:41the Institute the spiritual Life
1:15:43Institute that Ruth Haley Barton has
1:15:45learned quite a bit from and they are
1:15:48perennialists they believe that their
1:15:50all truth is God's truth and the light
1:15:53and so coming down to but I as far as I
1:15:55can tell from the shalom's website there
1:15:57is no emphasis on gospel belief but just
1:16:00this nebulous path of spiritual
1:16:03Discovery and so I I've not seen any
1:16:05gospel presentation I've not seen a
1:16:07Christian value I've not seen a
1:16:09Christian statement of faith anywhere on
1:16:12their website the question for me arise
1:16:14is can can I create my own path of
1:16:17spiritual Discovery or must I believe
1:16:19the gospel and Trust in Christ and
1:16:21Christ alone and then my spiritual life
1:16:24be begins it seems like according to
1:16:27this institute and to Leo deina
1:16:29Advocates that spiritual formation is
1:16:33what you make of it basically the
1:16:35Christian regeneration is not
1:16:38necessary but Christian regeneration is
1:16:41absolutely necessary otherwise we are
1:16:44dead in our trespasses and sins as
1:16:46Ephesians 2:1 says and we cannot be
1:16:49truly spiritually alive until God makes
1:16:53us alive to together with Christ in
1:16:56Ephesians 2:5 so this is also on their
1:17:00website shalom's website again which
1:17:03offers lecto deina and other spiritual
1:17:07practices which Ruth Haley Barton also
1:17:11is very influenced by and so here is a
1:17:13section on there what is
1:17:17spirituality and I'll just read here in
1:17:19many Traditions the word Spirit refers
1:17:21to life force the Basic Energy of being
1:17:25symbolically spirit is the Breath of
1:17:27Life the Hebrew ruach Greek Numa Latin
1:17:30spiritus and Sanskrit
1:17:33Prana P PR I don't know exactly how to
1:17:36say that hope I'm getting it right all
1:17:39mean both breath and spirit
1:17:40traditionally this life force is seen as
1:17:43Manifest in our love in the passions and
1:17:46Inspirations that motivate us and
1:17:48connect us with the world and with one
1:17:51another this last statement is found on
1:17:53their website like I said under their
1:17:56contemplative spirituality section this
1:17:59is an anti-trinitarian and treats the
1:18:02spirit as an impersonal life force not
1:18:05as a personal being the third person of
1:18:07the Holy Trinity the spirit of God is a
1:18:11personal being this is a new AG Spirit
1:18:15not the spirit of Christ as he has been
1:18:17revealed in
1:18:19scripture it's also the basis or what
1:18:21you you could say this is pantheism
1:18:23basically pantheism is the belief that
1:18:27God there's a spirit the spirit of God
1:18:29is in all things in
1:18:31creation this is not a Christian view
1:18:36that there is a life force in all things
1:18:38think Star Wars you know the force be
1:18:40with you according to my quick Research
1:18:43into Ruth Haley Barton and this shalum
1:18:46institute it's pretty clear to me that
1:18:47this form of spiritual he finds its
1:18:49roots in
1:18:51perennialism that belief again that
1:18:54God's truth is all truth or all truth is
1:18:56God's truth this is not Christian folks
1:19:00in a sweeping look at these two
1:19:01resources which were provided in a
1:19:04spiritual Retreat on a weekend in a
1:19:07Christian missions ma
1:19:10materials these
1:19:12people I would very strongly encourage
1:19:15you your church your mission
1:19:17organization your Christian School your
1:19:20Seminary and any other Christian
1:19:22organizations to stay away way stay away
1:19:26from Leo deina stay away from this
1:19:29shalum institute if you've ever had any
1:19:32encounters with it in connections with
1:19:34it Ruth Haley Barton stay away and I'll
1:19:38just keep that quote up there for you to
1:19:40show you that it is Star Wars the Force
1:19:43basically I recently saw the print out
1:19:45for a contemplative program that
1:19:47employed Leo dein they asked the
1:19:49participant to think and visualize what
1:19:52you hear smell think feel see what do
1:19:56you see around you what does the Jericho
1:19:59look like what is the temperature where
1:20:01is bardus how big is the crowd what's
1:20:04the mood of the crowd this right here is
1:20:07actually borderline astral projection
1:20:09you project yourself into the scenario
1:20:14in that time and uh so I found this very
1:20:19very troubling and maybe even to travel
1:20:22outside your physical body to explore
1:20:24other Realms of time and space again
1:20:27this is not a Christian practice we
1:20:29don't look into the text of scripture
1:20:31this way to place ourselves or imagine
1:20:34ourselves into the text or into the time
1:20:37and the story of the Bible we can be
1:20:40taught what it was like and and and we
1:20:43can understand the context and maybe
1:20:46think about and try to picture what it
1:20:48was like but to see ourselves there and
1:20:50imagine the details literally feeling
1:20:54stuff touching things smelling things
1:20:57sensing things seeing things imagining
1:21:00what the crowds were talking about or
1:21:02looking like that is very very tenuous
1:21:05and possibly even dangerous because
1:21:07astral projection is dangerous it is a
1:21:10dangerous dangerous thing to practice
1:21:13Christians should not be practicing
1:21:15projection of any type where you project
1:21:18yourself into some other time and space
1:21:21for instance so we have covered quite a
1:21:25bit of ground here today and I wanted to
1:21:28jump over here now we've kind of
1:21:29interspersed the scripture but I want to
1:21:32come over here and look at what we ought
1:21:36to be doing with scripture Leo deina is
1:21:38something I believe we should not
1:21:40practice it is a Catholic Mystic
1:21:43practice and should not be practiced by
1:21:46faithful Christians whether you belong
1:21:47to the 247 prayer movement or not if you
1:21:49belong to the 24/7 prayer movement I
1:21:51would beg you please please come out it
1:21:53is not necess Neary prayer is absolutely
1:21:56necessary it is a part of the Christian
1:21:57life but it is unnecessary for you to be
1:22:01pressed to pray 24 hours a day s days a
1:22:03week overnight in the middle of the
1:22:05night fast and pray and do all these
1:22:07things that this movement begs of you to
1:22:10do expects of you to do it's not
1:22:13necessary now fasting and prayer are
1:22:16wonderful things when you choose to do
1:22:18it but to demand that of people is not
1:22:21necessary all right so here is what
1:22:24scripture says what we how we ought to
1:22:27use scripture in a continual way is 1
1:22:30Timothy 4: 13 He says until I come
1:22:33devote yourself to the public reading of
1:22:35scripture to exhortation to teaching do
1:22:39not neglect the gift you have which was
1:22:41given you by prophecy until the when the
1:22:43Council of Elders laid their hands on
1:22:45you practice these things immerse
1:22:47yourselves in them so that all may see
1:22:50your progress keep a close watch on
1:22:52yourself and on your teaching meaning
1:22:56teach the word pay attention to the word
1:22:58but also watch your own life persist in
1:23:01these things for him so doing you will
1:23:03save both yourself and your hearers
1:23:06preach the word read the word publicly
1:23:09teach it watch your own life take care
1:23:12that your own life is an order and if
1:23:14you persist in these things you will
1:23:16save both yourself and your hearers
1:23:19another scripture I wanted to focus on
1:23:21so in other words the word of God should
1:23:23be read out loud in public to us as the
1:23:27body of Christ so and what else is
1:23:29scripture it is in second Peter 1:20-21
1:23:34Peter writes this knowing first of all
1:23:36that no prophecy of scripture come from
1:23:39someone's own
1:23:41interpretation for no prophecy was ever
1:23:43produced by the will of man but men
1:23:45spoke from God as They Carried were
1:23:48carried Along by the Holy Spirit God
1:23:50spoke to these men and they have given
1:23:52us these things they're not their own
1:23:55interpretation they are produced by God
1:23:59men spoke from God carried Along by the
1:24:02Holy Spirit and thus we have the
1:24:05scriptures so we can know in the pages
1:24:07of scripture we have what God wants us
1:24:11to know let's conclude here with saying
1:24:14a few things instead of personal ELO
1:24:17Divina practices what could we do what
1:24:20what should we do Richard what would be
1:24:23if you're thinking about taking Retreat
1:24:24so the reason I became aware of this and
1:24:27being used largely in the Evangelical
1:24:30movement and Evangelical missions
1:24:32movement was because I uh was be me
1:24:36became aware of a organization that was
1:24:39having a personal Retreat offering it to
1:24:41their missionaries and so this Leo deino
1:24:45was included as part of the personal
1:24:47Retreat that people that was being
1:24:48offered so what could we do in lie of
1:24:52Leo deina what would be some good
1:24:54spiritual practices for me and so I just
1:24:57got a list of a few things here if you
1:24:58wanted to do a personal quiet time or
1:25:01personal Retreat or some personal
1:25:03reflection here's what you could do just
1:25:06a quick real simple outline read
1:25:08scripture maybe large books maybe
1:25:10chapters or look for certain themes you
1:25:14say you want to address a theme then get
1:25:15together several scriptures to put
1:25:17together a theme read scripture don't
1:25:20read it in Leo deina looking for certain
1:25:22things looking for divine words you read
1:25:24scripture maybe even a whole book maybe
1:25:27take the book of Ephesians and that is a
1:25:30powerful powerp packed book that will
1:25:33really blow you away read it then
1:25:36Journal about what you've read through
1:25:38scripture and learn through that process
1:25:40that journal however is not scripture
1:25:44it's not that God is speaking to you you
1:25:46have what you have read in scripture now
1:25:49Journal about that yeah then pray pray
1:25:53ask God to
1:25:55help you adore God I like the acts of
1:25:58prayer acts adore God confess your sin
1:26:02confess where you fall short thank him
1:26:04for all he's done for us in Christ Jesus
1:26:06if you happen to read through Ephesians
1:26:08it's amazing so thank him for all he's
1:26:10done for us in Christ Jesus and then
1:26:13supplication is just a fancy way of
1:26:15saying giving your prayers and
1:26:18repetitions and requests to God so acts
1:26:22adoration confession Thanksgiving and
1:26:23supp ation that's a great you've already
1:26:26got an hour gone right there in a
1:26:28personal Retreat then maybe take a group
1:26:31with you fellowship with others on what
1:26:33they've learned and are hearing from God
1:26:35through the word of God and not through
1:26:37their feeling hearing contemplation
1:26:39tuning their ears to hear centering
1:26:42themselves or anything like that what is
1:26:44the word of God saying to you all
1:26:47mutually encourage each other then sing
1:26:51the Bible says make music in your hearts
1:26:54addressing one another of Psalms hymns
1:26:57and spiritual songs singing and making
1:26:59Melody of the Lord with your heart
1:27:01giving thanks always for everything to
1:27:03God the father in the name of our Lord
1:27:05Jesus Christ so that's a real simple I
1:27:07mean you could fill up an entire day
1:27:09with that you could have more than one
1:27:11session you could uh organize it any way
1:27:14you wanted but read scripture Journal
1:27:16about it have people write about it have
1:27:18people speak to each other pray
1:27:21fellowship with each other speak to each
1:27:22other mutually encourage each other and
1:27:24then sing together and worship God so
1:27:27let me close with this the challenge
1:27:31with Leo deina is that you actually
1:27:34treat scripture as something that it's
1:27:37not scripture is God's message to man
1:27:42and when you do Leo you actually take it
1:27:44and you cut it up and you sparse it up
1:27:46and you take words out and you take
1:27:48thoughts out and you let things jump out
1:27:50to you in Scripture that is the first
1:27:53words that hit you or whatever and
1:27:55scripture is not meant to be read that
1:27:57way the hermeneutical principle is that
1:27:59scripture is meant to be read how the
1:28:00authors intended you to understand it so
1:28:04in hermeneutics in scripture
1:28:06interpretation and understanding we are
1:28:09trying to get as close as we can to the
1:28:13author's intent the authorial intent is
1:28:16what hermeneutics seeks to get us to we
1:28:19want to try as best we can through
1:28:22context through understanding the times
1:28:24through understanding background through
1:28:26understanding the language of the time
1:28:28to get as close as we can to the
1:28:30author's original intent when you
1:28:34practice likeo deina you do not seek out
1:28:37the author's original intent which was
1:28:40if we're looking at the authors Paul the
1:28:42Apostle Peter John who wrote the
1:28:45Revelation and uh the gospel when he
1:28:49wrote those things he had an intent and
1:28:53God had G given him that inent intent so
1:28:56when you actually read the scripture and
1:28:59try to get to the author's original
1:29:02intent then you're getting to understand
1:29:05what God's message is for you and for me
1:29:09so when we try to do Leo deina or other
1:29:12contemplative way ways of understanding
1:29:14scripture we are departing from
1:29:18authorial intent and thus we're not
1:29:21actually hearing God and what his
1:29:24message is to man so another challenge
1:29:27with uh Leo deina and other practices
1:29:31like this contemplative practices is
1:29:34what we understand as private
1:29:36Revelations and John Owen spoke quite at
1:29:41length on private Revelations and I
1:29:44appreciate I think I've mentioned this
1:29:45in a show previously that John Owen had
1:29:49written all this and ji Packer
1:29:51summarized it for us so we don't have to
1:29:53get through the difficult the weeds of
1:29:55John Owen's language he said J jip
1:29:58Packer summarized John Owen's
1:30:01understanding of private revelations in
1:30:04this way he said if private Revelations
1:30:06agree with scripture they're
1:30:08needless and if they disagree then
1:30:10they're false so there's also this
1:30:13challenge of if God is speaking to you
1:30:15and saying that you have uh to go to
1:30:18this job or giving you some private
1:30:20Revelation according to your personal
1:30:22life it's unverifiable able according to
1:30:24scripture so that's the problem now does
1:30:27God lead and guide and direct certainly
1:30:30he led us to the mission field here and
1:30:33that was his will of course a and so
1:30:37there is a sense of course in which you
1:30:39are LED and guided and directed by God's
1:30:43omniscient omnipotent and Sovereign hand
1:30:47he does lead us but private Revelations
1:30:50must agree with scripture if they do not
1:30:53agree with scripture then they are
1:30:54redundant and
1:30:55unnecessary if they disagree then
1:30:58they're not from scripture nor from God
1:31:01with this movement with contemplative
1:31:04ways of trying to have private
1:31:06Revelation they display that they
1:31:08disagree with the sufficiency of
1:31:10scripture the sufficiency of scripture
1:31:12says that the scriptures alone are
1:31:14sufficient and as a source of Revelation
1:31:16from God with no other sources of
1:31:19Revelation either prudent or necessary
1:31:22for Faith and life and if anything were
1:31:24to be added as revelatory sources then
1:31:27it displays that the scriptures are
1:31:29neither sufficient nor authoritative for
1:31:32that person I also want to reiterate
1:31:35that scripture
1:31:37is understandable there is this
1:31:39theological concept of the perspicuity
1:31:42of scripture scripture is perspicuous
1:31:44it's understandable perspicuous just a
1:31:46fancy word for saying that things should
1:31:48be understandable they're clear they're
1:31:50they're you can enough to know God's
1:31:54will for man and so scripture is
1:31:57perspicuous it gives us everything we
1:31:59need to understand how we ought to
1:32:02relate to God how we can find peace with
1:32:04God through Jesus Christ and how we are
1:32:06to know the will of God so scripture is
1:32:09all we need for life and godliness we
1:32:12need not Leo deina we need not
1:32:14contemplative prayer we don't need
1:32:16perennialism because perennialism is a
1:32:18false religion anyways it's trying to
1:32:21syncretize or mix and match
1:32:24other sources other religious sources
1:32:27with that of Christianity and Jesus
1:32:30Christ is the way the truth and the life
1:32:32and no one comes to the father but
1:32:35through him that's his own claim of
1:32:37himself and so if we add or mix and
1:32:41match other religious sources to that of
1:32:44Christianity we falsify it so that is a
1:32:47long show longer than I had imagined but
1:32:50I hope and pray it was beneficial for
1:32:52you and that you will please please I
1:32:55beg you avoid contemplative forms of
1:32:59spirituality avoid lectio deina avoid
1:33:03perennialism avoid Richard Roar I'll do
1:33:06in show later on him and why we ought to
1:33:08specifically avoid him avoid these other
1:33:11teachers avoid other teachings please
1:33:14please please if you are involved in the
1:33:16247 prayer movement come out Leo deina
1:33:20and the other things that they mentioned
1:33:21even in that video of 25 years of
1:33:23Celebration
1:33:24are harmful to your spiritual life
1:33:27scripture is all you need for life and
1:33:30godliness and Christ will help you build
1:33:33the foundation on the solid rock that is
1:33:36Jesus Christ and his word and you need
1:33:39no other source so I hope and pray that
1:33:42helped you today if you like what you
1:33:44heard please do me a favor and click the
1:33:46like button hit the Subscribe and smash
1:33:48that Bell it helps us get this
1:33:50information and content out to more
1:33:52people if you'd like more information
1:33:54about my Ministry you could look up
1:33:56Richard PM more.net I also blog at
1:33:59Richard PM more. blogspot.com you're
1:34:01welcome to follow me on X formerly
1:34:04Twitter Richard M23 is my handle please
1:34:08feel free to email us at Firm Foundation
1:34:11show atgmailcom that's Firm Foundation
1:34:15show atgmailcom thanks for tuning into
1:34:19this episode until next time God bless
1:34:21you and take care all that on Jesus has
1:34:26leaned for
1:34:29repose I will not I will not desert to
1:34:35it f that so the W hell should endeav to
1:34:42shake I'll never no never no never
1:34:48forsake
1:34:57[Music]

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