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The Case for We-before-Me | Brad Wilcox — Transcript

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0:00marriage has kind of lost ground has
0:03retreated the most among working class
0:04and poor Americans and so what that
0:07means practically of course both
0:09economically and socially is that that
0:12leaves poor and working-class adults and
0:15kids doubly disadvantaged
0:17[Music]
0:29my guest today is Brad Wilcox
0:33he's the director of the national
0:34marriage project at the University of
0:37Virginia
0:37professor of Sociology at the University
0:39of Virginia
0:41visiting scholar at the American
0:43Enterprise Institute and a senior fellow
0:46at The Institute for family studies
0:49his research has been featured in The
0:51New York Times The Wall Street Journal
0:53the Atlantic
0:55NBC's The Today Show and many other
0:59media Outlets
1:01he earned his PhD from Princeton
1:04University
1:05he's held Fellowship
1:07research fellowships at Princeton
1:09University Yale University and the
1:11Brookings institution that's quite a
1:13list Brad thank you so much for giving
1:15us your time it's good to be here John
1:17thanks your research is very wide and
1:21very well put together
1:24but if we could open up you recently
1:27wrote and I'm quoting when it comes to
1:29confronting some of our most serious
1:31problems from Child poverty to school
1:35failure to mass incarceration one of the
1:39biggest factors driving these problems
1:41cannot be uttered in our national
1:43conversation
1:44you were talking about for one of a
1:46better term the f word right family sure
1:50why is it because this is common right
1:53across the West now that families such a
1:55forbidden topic when diagnosing these
1:59social Melodies and and why is that such
2:02a serious problem in your view yes I
2:04mean it is striking I think both in the
2:06US and Australia as well that you know
2:08when we're kind of addressing things
2:09like poverty and crime and opportunity
2:12and whatnot that we're kind of reluctant
2:14to sort of talk publicly about the role
2:16that families play in all of these
2:17topics and what we see here in the
2:18United States for instance is that when
2:21Raj Chetty is one of our our top
2:22economists at Harvard was looking at
2:24what's sort of the the best predictor of
2:27Mobility for poor kids in terms of what
2:30factor lifts poor kids up and into
2:32adulthood into sort of the upper class
2:34at kind of the community level
2:36what he found was it wasn't inequality
2:39that wasn't the biggest Factor it wasn't
2:41sort of school quality it wasn't race
2:44um but it was family structure that was
2:46sort of the best predictor
2:48um that he found in his research and yet
2:51this kind of finding is mainly ignored
2:55in our in our newspapers and our media
2:58outlets and in our universities as well
3:00it's kind of like the family elephant in
3:01the room everyone kind of knows it's
3:03there but no one wants to kind of talk
3:05about this sort of just they sort of
3:06circle around it I think that's the case
3:08for a couple of reasons I think one
3:10thing that's obviously very important
3:12here is that since the 1970s there's
3:14been a dramatic increase we call
3:16expressive individualism this idea that
3:19kind of like what makes you feel good is
3:21the most important thing what makes you
3:22happy is the most important thing and so
3:25kind of older Notions of sort of family
3:29stability the importance of sort of
3:32sacrificing for your marriage and for
3:34your kids
3:35um kind of in some way days were
3:38questioned because people were kind of
3:40putting a priority on this more
3:41individualistic approach I think that's
3:43one reason why we don't want to talk
3:44about
3:45chemical means often we have to
3:47sacrifice in some important way for our
3:49marriage for our kids for our parents um
3:52so I think that's one thing I think a
3:54second thing that's really important
3:55here is there's also been a kind of
3:57particularly again since the 60s a kind
3:59of anti-traditionalism that's sort of a
4:01foot and people kind of think that sort
4:04of the newest thing the most Progressive
4:06thing is the best thing you know that
4:08changed by its very nature is a good
4:10thing and so again that has certain
4:13implications for how you think about you
4:15know what's going on in our families
4:16since 1960s and the third thing that I
4:19would say is there's a kind of
4:21um a kind of Marxism that's a foot and
4:24what I mean by this kind of an
4:25assumption that you know what really
4:28matters when it comes to family life is
4:30economics and that if we kind of get all
4:32of our economic factors aligned
4:34correctly then family life will kind of
4:36just you know go well
4:39and that assumption which is also often
4:41aligned with the idea of sort of the
4:43state must play an important role in
4:45securing the economic foundations of
4:47family life you know makes people often
4:49kind of reluctant to sort of uh think
4:52deeply or consider
4:54um you know seriously how much you know
4:56marriage stable family life you know
4:58play an important role in securing both
5:02the economic dimensions of family life
5:04and just you know the quality of family
5:05life
5:06um more generally as well so those are I
5:08think three things help to kind of
5:09explain why we're often reluctant to
5:12confront
5:13the family factor on public discourse
5:16I'm often asked by the media in
5:18Australia when there's a mass shooting
5:20in America what I think right and I'm
5:22asked that because I was part of a
5:23government that introduced gun laws in
5:26Australia
5:27uh even now sometimes
5:30controversial in a way but uh I've a
5:35couple of times said to the journalists
5:38part of the problem I think that we need
5:40to address is that nearly every one of
5:43those nearly always young men that have
5:46committed those atrocities
5:48if you look at it they've had a
5:50seriously dysfunctional environment that
5:52they've grown up in which has left them
5:54sure badly damaged right
5:57I I suppose I'm asking you a sort of
5:59question is that uh yeah so I mean we do
6:01see now that in terms of the mass
6:03shootings in the US there's obviously a
6:04lot going on in terms of our own gun
6:06culture and gun policies uh mental
6:09health intersex obviously in a big way
6:11with with this in the United States
6:13um I think also kind of an inability to
6:15sort of give our young men a kind of a
6:17clear and constructive model of
6:18masculinity but it's also I think the
6:21case too that you often see that there's
6:22some kind of you know absent father or
6:24family dysfunction that's at play as
6:26well
6:27um and when you look kind of Beyond just
6:28the sort of the mass shootings to sort
6:30of crime more General United States
6:32violent crime in particular what you do
6:34see is there's a lot of empirical
6:35evidence indicating that young men
6:38who've grown up without their fathers in
6:40the household are more likely to have
6:41difficulty with the law they're more
6:42likely to be imprisoned incarcerated
6:44they're more likely to be suspended or
6:46expelled in our schools so it's a very
6:49strong connection just more generally
6:51between sort of family breakdown if you
6:53will and young men struggling on a
6:56number of fronts um including when it
6:58comes to you know any number of criminal
7:01activity as well
7:02yeah I I was looking at some numbers the
7:05other day and I gather since the mid 70s
7:07the American population is roughly
7:09doubled but the number of people in jail
7:11has gone up about about 750 percent
7:14quite staggering and overwhelmingly
7:17overwhelmingly their men it does seem to
7:21be a real problem
7:23right so starting in the late 60s and
7:25especially in the 70s just a huge up
7:27upsurge in violent crime and murder in
7:30the United States and then they came
7:31down in part because so many young men
7:33were incarcerated and of course now
7:34we've seen an uptick again in violent
7:36crime and in Murder in the U.S
7:39um and that's actually a topic I'm
7:40investing with some colleagues and
7:42here's what's the connection there
7:43between family and crime but in general
7:45we do see in the U.S a very strong
7:47association between
7:48violent criminal activity incarceration
7:51and
7:53um and young men growing up in homes
7:54without their fathers my real Point here
7:57being that you know it's as you said we
8:00don't want to talk about
8:02the impact of family structures and the
8:04environment in which people grow up in
8:06right there's a factor here it's as
8:08taboo and yet I think it'd be very
8:10helpful if we were to be more honest and
8:12to talk about it more
8:13right and again I think the probably the
8:15most fun reasons taboo is that you know
8:17all of us have you know you know have
8:19failed in some way in our families yeah
8:21all of us know folks who have messed up
8:23their marriages
8:24um and it's I think it's difficult for
8:26us to kind of confront this reality but
8:28I think it's still it's still necessary
8:30and we could do more I think
8:33um you know as as a culture uh more as
8:36individuals more on the policy front to
8:39kind of give parents and adults kind of
8:42the the skills the norms and the
8:44incentives that they need to kind of do
8:46better on the family front
8:49coming back to a more immediate issue
8:51we're still coming out I guess of the
8:54whole social upheaval created by covert
8:56right and
8:59in Australia in particular I I Americans
9:02talk about it a lot uh in some of our
9:04bigger cities some very tough lockdown
9:07policies and so forth were put in place
9:09I suspect and I just I'm seeking your
9:12views on this that the whole impact on
9:16on employment education social life
9:18family life has been quite profound
9:21right how would you see the impact that
9:25the whole covert experiences had on
9:27family and math yeah I think there are a
9:29couple things one could say one is that
9:31um as we kind of look at the data at
9:33least the United States there's a number
9:35of different kind of academic pieces
9:37indicating that married families
9:39navigated kind of the lockdowns more
9:42successfully than single adults and on
9:45the one level it seems like obvious but
9:46I think just sort of it's worth I think
9:48underlying that in a day and age we can
9:50intend to sort of devalue the importance
9:52of marriage and the importance of Family
9:54actually having your own Community you
9:57know on the home front there with you
9:59and for you is important and I and I
10:01would respect that kind of even beyond
10:03covid that in a world that's
10:05increasingly economically unequal in a
10:08world where we spend too much time on
10:09screens and enough time in person
10:12um and in a world where we could see
10:13more pandemics you know having a family
10:15you know that you're living with I think
10:18will become more and more valuable in
10:20having a spouse there to be with you and
10:22for you is I think more and more Bible
10:23going forward now in terms of other
10:25things about kind of covet and marriage
10:27what we saw is that there was a decline
10:30both in in divorce and in marriage in
10:332020 in the United States we've seen an
10:35uptick in um in marriages
10:39um in 2021 as people kind of recovering
10:41and this year as well 2022 and how it's
10:44going to kind of fall out for divorce is
10:45not entirely clear
10:47um what we did see about you know 12
10:50years ago with the Great Recession was
10:52it
10:53in the middle of the Great Recession
10:55people kind of hunker down and divorced
10:58less and then once the recession lifted
11:00there was a bit of an uptick in divorce
11:02and then after that divorce came down
11:04yet again so divorce kind of overall is
11:07down in the U.S and I think that's in
11:09part because people recognize that kind
11:11of in the face of some major social
11:14tumult major social trauma
11:16it's you know it's good to kind of stick
11:18with your spouse but it remains to be
11:20seen how this will kind of play out in
11:22the next couple of years with respect to
11:23sort of covid
11:25um and it could be that again folks
11:26appreciate how much it matters to have a
11:28spouse in the corner but for of course
11:30some couples kind of the intensity of
11:33being together
11:34um locked down was uh was too much for
11:37their marriage so we'll see I think in
11:39the next year or two how this all plays
11:41out in terms of marriage
11:43um stability and also kind of people
11:45entering into marriages as well
11:48you write uh in 2019
11:52or you co-wrote that
11:54shifting family patterns can have
11:56profound Economic Consequences fueling
11:59poverty insecurity and inequality and a
12:01moment ago indeed you made the comment
12:03that family structures have a huge
12:05impact on social Mobility right um Now
12:08by shifting family patterns I I'd
12:10imagine you're talking to some extent at
12:13least about what we might have called
12:14fairly recently
12:16um uh broken homes sure
12:19um could you go to a you know a bit more
12:21detail about your thinking of the the
12:22legacy of
12:24the breaking of homes you know and
12:26family members in society sure one I
12:28think one point to make here is that
12:31um people often assume the family is
12:33kind of like this private thing you know
12:35it's just sort of it's you your
12:37girlfriend boyfriend spouse and kids and
12:39that's about it
12:41um kind of you know in the American
12:42connect center with like what happens in
12:44Vegas stays in Vegas kind of what
12:46happens in the home stays in the home
12:48but what the science actually tells us
12:50is that what happens in our homes
12:52doesn't just stay in our homes it kind
12:54of it bleeds over into our neighborhoods
12:56and our schools and our communities and
12:58our states and our country
13:00um and so what that means practically
13:01then in response to your question is
13:03that when families are flourishing
13:06um you know communities are flourishing
13:08as well states are flourishing as well
13:09and so my research suggests with Robert
13:11Lerman at the urban Institute here in
13:13Washington DC and with Joseph price an
13:15economist is that basically states with
13:19more married parents see markedly higher
13:22growth rates than other states that
13:24don't have as many married parents
13:26um have much lower rates of child
13:28poverty and also of higher rates of what
13:30we call economic Mobility that's it sort
13:32of Rags to Riches Mobility over the life
13:34course for you know kids growing up in
13:35the states so these are kind of just
13:37some examples of the way in which how
13:39when families are flourishing both kids
13:42and adults are more likely to be
13:44flourishing as well in both kind of you
13:47know the education a context and then
13:50later on the you know the economic
13:51context and
13:54um you know that's worth noting of
13:55course the other point to make here is
13:56that unfortunately we've seen I think
13:58this is true in Australia as well is
14:00that sort of marriage has kind of lost
14:02ground has retreated the most among
14:04working class and poor Americans and so
14:07what that means practically of course
14:09both economically and socially is that
14:12that leaves poor and working-class
14:15adults and kids doubly disadvantaged so
14:18they've got less economic resources you
14:20know coming into the household because
14:22dads are often now absent from those
14:24households
14:25um and they've got you know fewer
14:27parents on scene to help the kids
14:28navigate school
14:30um and you know their sons are more
14:32likely to have difficulty with the
14:33police you know daughters have more
14:35difficulty with things like a teenage
14:36pregnancy and it just reinforces again
14:40the sort of larger economic and social
14:42divide playing out in our countries
14:44because the family is more fragile for
14:48working class and poor Americans I think
14:50also it's true again for Australians as
14:52well
14:52something you said there uh but they uh
14:55stop and think you can actually assess
14:57state by state in America can you the
14:59that some states have stronger right
15:02marriage structures uh commitments than
15:06others correct yeah so there's that you
15:07know a lot of heterogeneity uh places
15:10like Utah have you know quite stable
15:12families true for Nebraska as well uh
15:15places like you know New Mexico and
15:17Louisiana
15:19um South Carolina have
15:21um have high rates of family instability
15:23so that difference allows us to kind of
15:25figure out how
15:27um our differences and these sort of
15:29broader ecological patterns of family
15:31life been linked to a variety of Social
15:33and educational economic outcomes
15:36um you know at this sort of aggregate
15:37level but the point here is that again
15:39families don't just matter for
15:41individual adults and kids they matter
15:44for the larger social environment and we
15:46often I think fail to kind of recognize
15:49that in the current political and
15:50cultural context
15:52flow on question to what extent has that
15:54been the result of those States being
15:56culturally different for historical
15:58reasons
15:59and to what extent is it because of
16:01different government policies
16:03issued in those states can you any yeah
16:06does government policy have an effect on
16:09family structures and Community Harmony
16:12so I think a lot of these differences
16:13are are deeply rooted in cultural
16:16patterns including religion as you can
16:18you know obviously our number one state
16:20is is the Mormon state of Utah so that's
16:22certainly part of the story there you
16:25can think though too com that sort of
16:26the longer impact of a very kind of
16:29perverse law and that of course is the
16:31whole law around slavery in the United
16:32States so when you look at in which
16:34regions is sort of the family most
16:37fragile in America it's in those
16:40counties where slavery was most Salient
16:44so you can kind of look at the
16:46Mississippi Delta for instance
16:48um and that's an expression in some ways
16:50of obviously in both culture but also of
16:52law but then more recently I you can
16:56certainly look at there's been work done
16:58by economists at MIT for instance
17:01showing how the first states to pass
17:05no-fault divorce were the states that
17:08saw their kids sort of educational
17:11attainment come down you know more
17:14quickly than states that did not pass
17:16no-fault divorce laws so that's an
17:20example of how kind of
17:22family policies at the state level were
17:25then reflected later on in this case
17:28kids educational performance
17:30that really is interesting after all
17:33this time the slavery intense States if
17:36I can put it that way are still showing
17:39uh different patterns yeah it's it's
17:41much more actually kind of discreet I
17:43mean there is actually a you know a
17:46piece published in National Review by
17:47Senator Mike League just geographically
17:50laying out these patterns in terms of
17:52where slavery was most common and then
17:54patterns where single Parenthood is you
17:56know is most common and it Maps out you
17:59know very closely and again it does
18:01suggest that sort of invoice the the
18:04unique American sin is is our Legacy our
18:07history of slavery and that's continued
18:09to kind of have an uh an effect on our
18:12current American Family Life
18:14extraordinary yeah to move to the issue
18:17of
18:18happiness contentedness and what it has
18:20to do with family structures I'm
18:21interested that you recently wrote an
18:23article the surprising case for marrying
18:26young and your own research found that
18:28couples who cohabitated were 15 more
18:31likely to get divorced than those who
18:33did not
18:34and
18:36I'd be interested in you telling us a
18:38bit more about the advantages of people
18:41considering earlier marriage in an age
18:44when most people were delaying it right
18:46quite a bit yeah I mean I think you turn
18:48on almost any show these days that sort
18:50of focusing on on young adults and
18:52there's kind of like this narrative
18:53about waiting until you're about 30 to
18:55start you know getting serious about
18:57finding a spouse and and settling down
18:59and that's really kind of the view that
19:00I see among a lot of my students at the
19:02University of Virginia kind of that idea
19:03we should wait in our late 20s to kind
19:06of look to get married
19:08um so the surprising thing is when you
19:09actually look at the research
19:12um on marital happiness it looks like
19:13folks who kind of get married roughly
19:15speaking in their mid-20s report the
19:17most happiness in their marriages and
19:21then some work that I did with Lyman
19:22Stone who's a demographer and an
19:24economist indicates that in the United
19:26States anyways couples who are getting
19:28married in their 20s or actually women
19:29getting married in their 20s a big
19:30sample of women and who don't cohabit
19:33prior to marriage had some of the lowest
19:36divorce rates in you know in our study
19:38in in that survey so it suggests that
19:42um at least kind of today uh folks who
19:45are getting married in their in their
19:4720s you know mid-20s roughly speaking
19:50and are doing so without cohabiting
19:53prior to marriage
19:54um have a pretty good shot at being both
19:56happily married and stably married
19:58and you know this runs against again
20:00this conventional wisdom that getting
20:02married in your 20s is
20:04um you know an unwise idea and I think
20:07what's Happening Here is at least two
20:10things one is that couples who are
20:12getting married in their 20s are able to
20:14kind of grow together you know and this
20:16is sort of more of a more of a
20:18Cornerstone model of marriage and less
20:20of what's called now a Capstone model so
20:21they can kind of they can develop you
20:24know Common traditions in the household
20:27um common sort of expectations about
20:29what their kind of you know family and
20:31work future looks like
20:33um I think that's part of it but I think
20:34the other part of this story here is
20:36they're not kind of accumulating a lot
20:38of different relationships before
20:40getting married and we've seen the
20:42research is that you know in many
20:45domains of life more experience is
20:47better so more teaching you know more
20:48playing tennis you know more throwing
20:50the football
20:52um more playing the piano tends to make
20:54you a better you know teacher a better
20:57tennis player better football player a
20:59better pianist but when it comes to
21:01marriage it's a very different story The
21:04more experiences you have with serious
21:06relationships prior to marriage the
21:08worse you do and so I think you know not
21:11having had you know lots of Partners
21:13before marriage
21:14makes people I think probably less
21:17likely to sort of critically compare
21:18their spouse to some you know prior
21:21boyfriend or some prior girlfriend that
21:23also I think helps to explain why folks
21:25are kind of getting married directly
21:26without cohabiting you know in their
21:29mid-20s tend to be more likely to
21:31flourish but again it is a kind of
21:32surprising finding for a lot of young
21:34adults today I can imagine a lot of
21:35people would be surprised yes very much
21:37so yeah
21:39um you've done a lot a lot of work
21:40actually on this issue of
21:42younger Americans and their state of
21:45mind their happiness sure and you've
21:47looked at the influence of a number of
21:49things uh on on their happiness
21:53I understand that there's there's quite
21:56a low level of relatively speaking
21:59of satisfaction with life of people
22:01saying I'm really enjoying my life now
22:03compared to the historical Norm
22:06yeah so Leominster and again in the
22:09Atlantic wrote a piece on kind of the
22:10decline in happiness among adults and we
22:14attribute that in part to less religion
22:16in part to less marriage and in part
22:19also to less sex
22:21um and you know
22:22I if you had told me like even five
22:24years ago that I'd be worrying about
22:26young adults not having sex I would have
22:27laughed you out of the room but we are
22:29seeing kind of like this amazing pattern
22:31um both in the U.S of course and even
22:34more so in eastern Asia and Japan for
22:36instance in South Korea for instance
22:37where for a variety of reasons young
22:40adults are not having sex
22:42um and um I think it's sort of it's It's
22:46partly reflection of the fact people are
22:48spending just much more time on screens
22:50and less time in person you know
22:53socializing less time in person dating
22:55and less in time in personal course
22:56being married
22:58um and so all these factors have kind of
23:00combined but you know again we are
23:03social animals and so things like being
23:05involved in religious community uh you
23:07know being married being in a
23:08relationship
23:10um you know having sex these things are
23:12all you know linked to young adults um
23:14being more likely to flourish and that
23:16that in person socializing on a variety
23:19of different levels and ways is is less
23:21common today day than it would have been
23:2410 or 20 years ago what does it say
23:26about the sexual Liberation movement of
23:27the 1960s that we've now got to a point
23:30where people are having not more sex but
23:31less sex
23:33yeah that's the big irony right that
23:35we're kind of we're celebrating if you
23:36will the sort of 50 you know well uh
23:39sort of now it's sort of the 54th
23:41anniversary in a sense of the sexual
23:42Revolution and
23:44um and we're seeing you know a dramatic
23:46decline in sex it's quite striking
23:48um I think in part What's Happening Here
23:50is that
23:52um when you kind of take out all the
23:54Norms around sort of sex and dating and
23:57courtship
23:58um it becomes more difficult for some
24:01young adults to navigate that
24:03um both kind of in terms of dating and
24:05marriage and also in terms of sex but I
24:07think it's also the case that the sort
24:09of the new technologies that were you
24:11know that were um we're using especially
24:13smartphones
24:14um are you know leading to a a dramatic
24:18decline in in-person socializing and
24:20that's one of the factors in play as
24:22well
24:23uh your your research I was quite struck
24:26by
24:28what appeared to me to be the moderate
24:30importance of religion to people feeling
24:32satisfied with their lives yeah and the
24:34the moderate importance of a couple of
24:36other factors but some very high
24:37importance of having sex right and
24:40here's the irony right it's it's the
24:42married
24:44who are having the most sex sure and
24:47that's playing into their happiness yeah
24:49yeah I mean it's you know it's one funny
24:51I don't want to make a mountain out of
24:52you know one particular story that we
24:54that we did but it is striking that sex
24:56was a you know a big factor in the story
24:59um
24:59you know so yes I think
25:02um again the irony is that none of us I
25:04think would have predicted you know
25:05again five or ten years ago that we'd be
25:08sort of
25:09um beginning to worry about the decline
25:11of sex among adults um but here we are
25:17Life's a strange Beast it's not quite
25:19what it looks to be on the surface sure
25:21yeah
25:22another issue I I I'm amazed at how
25:25often I hear
25:29women saying this when it comes to
25:33marriage uh understandably a girl wants
25:36to find a good man sure right and then
25:39you hear them say but where are all the
25:41good men right they may in fact be sound
25:43reasons I think for them asking that
25:46question right research suggests that a
25:49lot of young men really are struggling
25:51to find their feet in an age uh when the
25:56job Market's changing it's starting to
25:58I'm going to be very careful here but it
26:00is the emerging jobs are starting to
26:03provide real opportunities more for
26:06perhaps or more real opportunities but
26:07that way for women
26:10um boys are not doing as well at school
26:11they seem to be suffering more with
26:14family breakdown if I can put it that
26:16way more of them are going to jail
26:19sure so yeah I think maybe there's
26:21something in this idea you know there is
26:22a shortage of Good Men we do see at my
26:24own University about
26:2656 of the students now are male sorry
26:30are female at about 44
26:33um are male and we're seeing you know
26:35across the country uh women dominating
26:38kind of academic you know achievement
26:41um
26:42kind of contests in their middle schools
26:44high schools and being much more elected
26:46at both matriculate and graduate from
26:49college and graduate programs and we are
26:53seeing a growing number of of young men
26:55who are not in the labor force in the
26:57U.S as well
26:58so there are a lot of you know young men
27:01who are flounder and of course Jordan
27:02Peterson's success is an example I think
27:04part of there's a lot of young men are
27:06kind of looking around for you know
27:08models ideas
27:10um and and Peterson and some I think
27:13some really powerful things to say to
27:14young men so
27:16um but in terms of what's driving this I
27:18think um part of the story is we don't
27:19offer a constructive model of
27:21masculinity to our teenage guys and
27:23young men well I hardly need to go out
27:24and slide dragons to look after the
27:26women their children anymore
27:28that's part of it but I'm just saying
27:30like you know there's the pop culture or
27:31the schools don't really offer much in
27:33the way a kind of a constructive model
27:35of how one could be a a dragon slayer of
27:37sorts in the 21st century
27:40um you know we also know that young men
27:41who are growing up without their fathers
27:43are more likely to be struggling in
27:44school and in work and with the and with
27:46the police which is part of the story
27:48here as well
27:50um and then I think there's also
27:52um you know a way in which the new
27:54economy often makes guys particularly
27:56guys who are not in the college track I
27:58feel like they don't have you know a a
28:00good future
28:01um economically a good future
28:03professionally so these are some of the
28:06factors that are you know I think making
28:07it more difficult for you know boys and
28:10young men to flourish because I also
28:12would add too just the way in which our
28:14schools tend to prioritize a more kind
28:15of feminine style of of schooling they
28:18don't tend to give I think boys enough
28:20time for
28:21um you know recess being out you know
28:24outside
28:25they tend to kind of minimize risky
28:28activities at school at least in the U.S
28:32context and tend to kind of promote
28:34activities and and forms of learning
28:36forms of pedagogy that are often more
28:39suited I think to young women than to
28:41young men so all of these things I think
28:43have created a context where we're less
28:46boy friendly less male friendly than we
28:48used to be and what people don't always
28:51realize is that means that there are
28:52fewer men who are kind of marriageable
28:55you know because they haven't gotten the
28:57training in school they don't have the
28:59opportunities in the workforce that
29:00would make them attractive candidates
29:02for for marriage and so I see it at my
29:05own institution at the University of
29:06Virginia a lot of young women coming
29:08into my office and you know expressing
29:10concern about the lack of of available
29:12men that they could sort of date and
29:15imagine a future with and that's sort of
29:17one way in which I think this failure to
29:19serve serve the needs of boys and men
29:21ends up actually hurting women as well
29:24this is interesting isn't it because
29:26in one way the first thought that comes
29:28to my mind is is the idea that if
29:32what you've got here is a situation
29:33where it's terrific the girls are doing
29:35well sure but if the boys are not doing
29:37well that's bad for the boys but there's
29:39a whole lot of girls out there too who
29:41are finding it hard to find a
29:43the right person to share their lives
29:45with so so exactly yeah if one sex is
29:48not doing well neither sex is reaching
29:50their optimal sort of level of happiness
29:52and contentment and right and meaning
29:55because again we're social animals to
29:57use Aristotle's term and because we're
29:59social animals if women can't find young
30:02men or men to you know to date and to
30:06marry and to form a life with that's
30:08going to make them on average a lot less
30:10happy it's going to deprive them
30:13opportunities to find a unique form of
30:16meaning in life as a wife and mother
30:18um it's going to be implicated probably
30:19too in lower levels of childbearing and
30:22you know family formation so
30:25um there are a whole bunch of ways in
30:26which what happens to men ends up having
30:28a pretty big impact on women and and
30:31families more generally as well
30:35we get a lot of talk about toxic
30:36masculinity and I want to say up front
30:38that that I think there are a heck of a
30:40lot of really decent young men out there
30:42who feel troubled and defronted and
30:45alienated by the idea that they're
30:47masculinity is toxic and I think they're
30:49the people who go to hear Jordan
30:51Peterson
30:52um because they're struggling with that
30:54they're saying I don't want to be toxic
30:55I want to be a decent human being right
30:57we'll come to the ones that are toxic in
30:58a moment sure
31:00um but I do think this is very damaging
31:02this this sort of blanket assertion that
31:05that that sometimes seems to imply it
31:08seems to be out there that that men are
31:10just inherently toxic and somehow we've
31:12got to develop programs to demasculize
31:15them
31:16yeah so again I think one of our
31:18challenges today is we're actually not
31:19giving our young men a kind of
31:20constructive model of masculinity and so
31:22they tend to you know Retreat either
31:24into the basement
31:26um or into you know other forms of
31:27anti-social
31:29um kind of hyper masculine Behavior
31:31that's not good
31:32um and it actually is toxic but I think
31:34if we kind of gave them a more
31:36constructive model of what it means to
31:38be a man in the 21st century we would
31:40avoid some of these problems
31:42um but to kind of follow up on your
31:43point I think it's no doubt as well too
31:45that there is toxic forms of masculinity
31:47which we do see in say you know spiking
31:50crime rates in the U.S we do see in
31:53terms of things like domestic violence
31:55and it's I think important to note it's
31:58often when men are failing to kind of be
32:00integrated into our core institutions
32:02that they act in toxic ways so if
32:05they're failing in school if they are
32:07not married if they're not gainfully
32:09employed they're often more likely to
32:12for instance engage in domestic violence
32:13so we know that for instance race
32:15domestic violence are much higher among
32:16happening couples they're among married
32:19couples they're higher for men who are
32:21unemployed than for men who are employed
32:24so again I think men are more likely to
32:25flourish on average when they're
32:27embedded in core institutions
32:29institutions like marriage and work and
32:32when they're not they're more likely to
32:33succumb to a kind of toxic form of
32:35masculinity
32:38and is it in part that we don't provide
32:41best provide opportunities for men young
32:44men to exercise responsibility and
32:47expect them to step up and accept
32:49responsibility we sort of we don't do
32:51adulting anymore
32:56yeah across the board I mean I think you
32:59know this is true for young adults both
33:01female and male but I think we it's
33:03especially the case that we're not doing
33:05enough to kind of basically scaffold the
33:07transition into adult masculinity for a
33:10young man you know of course across time
33:12and space most cultures have had strong
33:14rights of Passage that have taken you
33:17know teenage boys basically and ushered
33:19them into adulthood um and then given
33:22them kind of like a to-do list you know
33:23this is what you've got to do as an
33:24adult male and we don't do enough of
33:27that today in our contemporary culture
33:30the pain now on the horrific issue of
33:33Family Violence or
33:35domestic violence
33:37there's been a bit of controversy in
33:39Australia
33:40built around some research done in
33:43America and I not sure about the quality
33:46of the research all the way and it was
33:47interpreted in Australia genuinely
33:49uncertain but in an attempt to link
33:51particularly in sections of the media
33:53that are hostile to Christianity
33:55a link between conservative ideas of
33:59gender roles
34:01right and and sure what have you uh
34:06and and domestic violence it's an area I
34:08understand you've done products in my in
34:11my in my book on sort of religion and
34:14family life for for American men what I
34:16found was that uh men who were basically
34:19nominal evangelicals or nominal
34:21conservative Protestants were the most
34:23likely to be
34:25um reporting domestic violence whereas
34:27men who were
34:29um attending church regularly as
34:31conservative Protestants or as
34:32evangelicals have the lowest reports of
34:35domestic violence
34:36um and you know
34:39don't know entirely what's sort of
34:41happening there but I think one
34:43possibility is that men who are kind of
34:45exposed to sort of
34:47you know Christian or religious Notions
34:51of sort of patriarchy and Authority
34:54um in a very kind of
34:56um you know thin way in a very kind of
35:00you know cursory way
35:02could take that as a sort of a license
35:05to be authoritarian or abusive to
35:07justify them yeah justify their own bad
35:09behavior just their desire to Lord it
35:11over
35:12um you know a wife or girlfriend and
35:14kids so I think that's certainly part of
35:16the story there
35:17but at least in the U.S context in the
35:20day that I was looking at men who were
35:21engaged in religious communities where
35:23you know they're encouraged to kind of
35:25be of service where there's some kind of
35:28accountability you know in their own
35:29religious community where they're seeing
35:31other husbands kind of
35:33um you know making an effort to be good
35:34good Fathers and good spouses seem to
35:38have you know a lower risk on that front
35:41um so I think that's you know that's
35:43noteworthy we've also seen kind of a
35:45newer research in the United States that
35:47when you're looking at kind of men and
35:49housework on the home front we're seeing
35:51that religious men
35:53um are now reporting the highest levels
35:55of domestic stick work you know child
35:57care you know doing dishes things like
35:59that
36:00um and I think this is kind of a
36:01reflection of this sort of new
36:03recognition that the family is in in
36:07important ways under threat and so as
36:10husbands and fathers we need to kind of
36:11step up and do more to help out on the
36:14home front but I think you know anyone
36:15who's been involved in religious context
36:18knows that you know domestic violence is
36:21a reality and I think you know we could
36:23do more both from the pulpit and other
36:25context to kind of communicate the
36:27message of a that's not acceptable and B
36:31that if you're having difficulties in
36:32your marriage there are resources out
36:34there that you can you know plug into to
36:39um to you know strengthen and improve
36:43your marriage as well
36:46I think it's fair to say that there'd be
36:48a broad view in modern society that
36:52people who take their religious Faith
36:54seriously are uptight and probably less
36:57happy and less free right than those who
37:01have discarded those old superstitions
37:03sure your research suggests something
37:05quite different but people who take
37:08Faith seriously
37:10actually record higher levels of
37:13happiness right including uh women right
37:17sure uh in in
37:20deeply faithful households
37:24yeah you know actually I was just
37:25reading another study this morning
37:27um and found this is a study of British
37:29women that more religious British women
37:32um you know reported more sexual desire
37:34than their less religious peers which is
37:36kind of another sort of part of this
37:38puzzle but to kind of answer your
37:39question we do see
37:42um that religious
37:43um in the in the US context Americans
37:45are happier in their marriages and
37:47Report more sexual satisfaction and both
37:50on the sort of on the sexual
37:52satisfaction side of of The Ledger and
37:54on the marital happiness sort of
37:57outcomes we see that religious women who
38:00attend church with their husbands are
38:03are doing their best and I think that
38:05that's in some ways surprising because
38:08we've had kind of like this whole idea
38:09in the U.S of sort of like there was a
38:12this famous show called Saturday live
38:14and they had this sort of skit
38:16um with with the church lady and she was
38:18a very uptight kind of prudish you know
38:21probably Southern woman
38:24um and I think one could kind of be this
38:26sort of sense from this
38:28um pop cultural perspective that you
38:32know religious women are
38:34um again sort of dour and unhappy and
38:37and you know uptight but I think there's
38:39something about the
38:41um the sense of security and Trust
38:44um engendered in a religious marriage on
38:46average
38:48um the commitment to things like you
38:49know forgiveness
38:51um that end up translating into higher
38:54quality relationships and even higher
38:56quality sexual relationships and so what
38:58we're seeing kind of in general in the
39:00research is is sort of what happens
39:01outside of the bedroom ends up mattering
39:04for what happens inside the bedroom and
39:07one of those things that happens outside
39:08of the bedroom in some context of course
39:09is a sort of a strong faith and a strong
39:11religious community and couples who have
39:13the benefit of those kinds of things are
39:16more likely to be flourishing in the in
39:17the bedroom as well I think because
39:19you know their um their their sense of
39:23commitment and trust and emotional
39:24security then kind of feed into a
39:27stronger sexual relationship as well so
39:28that's I think for some folks that's
39:30kind of surprising
39:32coming to the impacts of social media
39:36uh it's one of the things that's really
39:38changed rapidly with the Advent of the
39:41smartphone in particular I would have
39:42thought right and I hear a lot of
39:44Educators saying that they are really
39:47dangerous you yourself uh
39:50and also Jonathan height and and Greg
39:53looking off in their book The coddling
39:55of the American mind right you know
39:57you've been warning us of the real
39:59dangers here
40:00uh you point out and I think in one of
40:02your pieces that between 2011 and 2016 a
40:06social media smartphones really I guess
40:08really hit the the the marketplace sleep
40:12deprivation but Among Us teens increased
40:15by 17 percent
40:17and sleep deprivation is very
40:19significant for example in depression
40:21then there's anxiety over body image and
40:24bullying there's Predators there's sure
40:26pornography to some extent you'd think
40:29letting your kid take a mobile phone to
40:31schools like letting them take a machete
40:33to school
40:35um
40:36how do we handle those what do we know
40:38about the metal health impacts of social
40:40media on children yeah I mean I think
40:43there's obviously a lot of controversy
40:44among academics about how much you know
40:46the smartphones have played a role in
40:48you know helping to fuel this sort of
40:50spiking Trend in anxiety spiking Trend
40:53and depression spiking Trend and suicide
40:56um in you know in many contexts
40:59um and I from the way that I kind of
41:02read the research I think that social
41:03media per se has been a big part of this
41:06um because it promotes as you were
41:07saying kind of like the sort of spirit
41:09of comparison like you know you you
41:12never measure up to you know your peers
41:15online because they're always presenting
41:16the best stuff online to you and so
41:17that's I think part of the story uh
41:19there's other kinds of material online
41:21that's that's toxic in one way or
41:23another
41:24um whether it's in terms of pornography
41:25or violent or whatever else it might be
41:27and then the other piece too is that you
41:30know we all need a good you know seven
41:33eight hours of sleep a night and you
41:36know our teenagers need even more sleep
41:37and of course if you give a kid you know
41:39an iPhone
41:41um and you don't kind of collect it at
41:4310 o'clock at night they're often going
41:45to just spend you know hours
41:47um you know scrolling through a screen
41:49and the problem with that in part is
41:53that it makes people much more likely to
41:54be vulnerable to depression when they
41:56don't get enough sleep so here's just
41:58some of the different things that our
41:59smartphones I think have have done to
42:00sort of reduce the emotional and the
42:03social welfare of our of our teenagers
42:05both in the US and probably also in
42:07Australia as well
42:09any sort of particular thoughts on your
42:11part as to what schools and indeed even
42:16um you know uh
42:18political forces or to try and do it in
42:21this area yeah are there helpful steps
42:23we could take well I mean and I don't
42:24know but certainly schools should
42:26basically prohibit I think you know
42:28phones obviously during class and maybe
42:30give kids just sort of discrete times
42:32you know maybe you know during
42:35just before lunch whatever to sort of
42:36check in with their parents whatever
42:37else it might be or you know a study
42:40break but just sort of have them have
42:41the phones kind of basically out of the
42:43schooling it's always constructive
42:46um and our kids have been in schools at
42:47a very different policies but the
42:48schools have the sort of the most strict
42:50policies seem to have the best
42:52um you know social environment for you
42:54know for the kids and then policy makers
42:56I think could do more to
42:59circumscribe the the role of phones in
43:02the lives of of kids so one idea would
43:05be kind of to shut down social media for
43:07kids from say 10 o'clock in the evening
43:09to seven in the morning or something in
43:12that in that you know framework to
43:14address the Sleep issue um another idea
43:16would be to require social media
43:17companies to get the permission of
43:19parents and there are ways to have to do
43:21that you know through verification
43:22processes
43:24um that are fairly straightforward now
43:25online so
43:27um I think that would kind of reduce the
43:29number of platforms that kids have
43:30access to and give parents more more
43:33opportunities to sort of
43:34um you know
43:36um
43:37scan their kids social media sites as
43:40well I meant to sort of really do a
43:42better job of age verification for
43:44pornography as well at least for and
43:46there are some you know some sites that
43:47are easily identifiable and kind of make
43:49sure that those are
43:51um much more removed from kids access
43:53would be good so these are the kinds of
43:54things we could do common sense reforms
43:56to kind of Reign in big Tech to some
43:59extent when it comes to our kids
44:03finally if I could
44:06um do you have any thoughts on
44:09those who uh and the you know I'm sure
44:12it's a huge number of people in our
44:14communities who are committed to their
44:16marriages but wondering how to
44:18strengthen them and keep them fresh
44:19those sorts of things
44:21um because it does seem to me that all
44:23relationships require refreshing on a
44:26regular basis any thoughts on what that
44:28looks like practical tips yeah so we
44:30have seen obviously since the 1970s a
44:32pretty dramatic uptick in divorce
44:35um and so I think you have to be you
44:36know if you're
44:38um if you're married you have to kind of
44:39be thinking about and sensitive what do
44:40I do to sort of
44:42protect my marriage from divorce and
44:45then also what do I do to sort of make
44:46it stronger and better I think about
44:48this in terms of five different
44:50C's so the first C is about communion uh
44:55about a kind of we before me mentality
44:57in your marriage this is I think both
44:58kind of very practical so things like
45:00for instance
45:01um having a joint checking account is
45:03linked actually better marital outcomes
45:05kind of it forces people to kind of see
45:08their finances as kind of a wee thing
45:10not not a me thing and to talk through
45:12financial difficulties and challenges in
45:14ways that you know hopefully are
45:15generally constructive so that's sort of
45:18one idea on that but also in terms of on
45:19the emotional front for communion I
45:21would definitely encourage couples to go
45:23on a regular date night you know and and
45:25mix it up so doing doing novel things
45:27with your spouse whether it's you know
45:29dancing or movies or going on a hike
45:32whatever it might be tends to engender a
45:35sense of romance because there's
45:36something about novelty that is is
45:38linked um I think in a very profound way
45:40in our brains and and our hearts with
45:43with a kind of more romantic Spirits
45:45that's a one piece the second C is about
45:48children kind of recognizing that your
45:49marriage matters not just for you but
45:51for your kids and couples who have that
45:52sense that they're kind of engaged in
45:54Enterprise to raise kids and then maybe
45:57raise help raise grandkids I think are
46:00more likely to be flourishing with this
46:01kind of common project they're working
46:02on together as a couple
46:04the third C is about commitment kind of
46:07recognizing that you've got to protect
46:08your marriage and that partly is about
46:10Fidelity
46:12um so you know one sort of negative
46:15example here is a very famous Republican
46:17governor governor Mark Sanford
46:19who would go away every year with his
46:22sort of college buddies I think it was
46:24um you know a bunch of guys and they
46:26would kind of go do Adventures but these
46:30friends were not really kind of
46:31committed to Fidelity
46:33um and so one you know one trip he met
46:36this woman in South America and you know
46:38things went from there and then that
46:41ended up you know basically destroying
46:43his marriage
46:44um so the point constructively is sort
46:46of like picking your friends well and
46:48and paying attention to kind of in the
46:50norm of Fidelity by having some degree
46:53of prudence in terms of how you relate
46:55to to folks who might be attractive
46:57alternatives to your spouse the fourth C
46:59is about cash and it really relates to
47:01men in particular
47:03we know that marriages where men are
47:05doing a decent job at least in the
47:07workforce are markedly less likely to
47:10end in divorce whereas the woman's
47:13employment has no implication for
47:15divorce risk so basically kind of
47:17encouraging husbands you know to be
47:20um deliberate about you know
47:22um being good workers and kind of
47:25attending to their financial
47:26responsibilities on that front is is
47:28still even in 2022 important this is
47:32based upon some Harvard research done by
47:34Sasha kilowald and the final scene is
47:36about community and we know that folks
47:38who have friends who are family oriented
47:41are more likely to be flourishing in
47:42their marriages and particularly friends
47:44who are religious I think about this in
47:46terms of three different factors
47:49um what I'd call Norms you know people
47:51who kind of embrace Norms like
47:52forgiveness for instance in marriage
47:54often from religious basis
47:57networks are being you know connected to
47:59other for instance religious friends is
48:01linked to better outcomes and memory
48:03called in sociology nomos a sense of
48:05like there's a there's an order out
48:07there that is
48:09um kind of superintending your life and
48:11so when you confront things like
48:13unemployment
48:15um the loss of a loved one or some other
48:17major uh trauma in your life if you have
48:20a kind of a community and a Nomo sort of
48:24basically gives you a sort of we call
48:26sacred canopy in sociology
48:28that lends meaning to your difficulty
48:31into your suffering you're much more
48:33likely to successfully navigate it and
48:35not to see your marriage dragged down by
48:37this um you know this this challenge
48:41um you know the slings and arrows of of
48:43you know of Fate so to speak so
48:46um those are kind of the five C's again
48:48so it's communion it's children it's
48:50commitment it's cash and it's Community
48:52are all factors that are linked to both
48:55stronger and more stable marriages in my
48:59research
49:00that's really valuable there's two
49:02things I'd just like to Sure uh so that
49:06I really picked up on there the first
49:08was forgiveness
49:10um
49:10we don't do it very well in our culture
49:12now Rabbi Jonathan sacks in a
49:14conversation that I held with him before
49:16he tragically died right he said one of
49:19the things that's really destructive in
49:21our modern Community now is the
49:22judgmentalism
49:24in this day of cancer culture say the
49:27wrong thing whatever right and the
49:30judgment is very harsh there's no mercy
49:33there's no forgiveness right it seems to
49:36me that family environments and
49:38marriages in particular
49:40there are going to be mistakes they're
49:42going to be misunderstandings if there's
49:43no forgiveness it's going to be very
49:46hard to keep the ship in good shape
49:49isn't it yeah there's obviously a lot of
49:51wear and tear in any long-term
49:52relationship particularly in marriage
49:53and so if you don't have the capacity to
49:55kind of
49:56um both acknowledge that you've messed
49:58up
49:59um and to ask for forgiveness
50:02um from your spouse and then to have the
50:04capacity to extend forgiveness to your
50:07spouse you know
50:08you're probably going to fail in one way
50:11or another that is you're gonna have a
50:12miserable marriage you're gonna get
50:13divorced so I think that you know
50:15forgiveness is just absolutely essential
50:16to kind of
50:18um you know picking yourself up again
50:21um and helping your spouse pick
50:22themselves up again as well on a kind of
50:24daily or weekly you know or a regular
50:27basis in one way or another
50:29and the other thing uh you've been very
50:31generous with your time but just to
50:32close yourself but that you said the
50:34companionship
50:35that's right it strikes me that women
50:37are innately better at that than men
50:40particularly once I've finished
50:42University and they go out into the
50:43workforce
50:44men tend not to be very good at keeping
50:48a few good close we're saying Australia
50:50mates around them and I heard a fellow I
50:54know and respect uh an older man so that
50:58a lot of women had said to him
51:00throughout his working life I wish my
51:03husband had more friends and he made the
51:05observation that
51:06that women are much better at it than
51:08men and but that women actually wish
51:12their husbands did have
51:14deep and meaningful relationships with a
51:17few friends yeah although I'd say it's
51:19you know it's important for both
51:21husbands and wives to have some good
51:23friends outside of the marriage and
51:24these are friends of course who are
51:25there for the marriage as well not
51:27friends are going to kind of you know
51:28basically from the sidelines throw rocks
51:31a relationship but yeah but having kind
51:34of other outlets not kind of investing
51:36all of your emotional apples in the
51:39marital basket but kind of being able to
51:41kind of see
51:43um and seek out you know other
51:45um other needs and interests with with
51:47friends I think is very is very valuable
51:50for for both wives and and husbands and
51:53again you're right I think husbands have
51:55more difficulty doing that so but it's
51:57it's still very important
51:59well thank you so very much so somebody
52:01said to me the other day I seem to have
52:03had training courses in everything
52:04except marriage yes so I think your
52:07insights and your tips uh are gold and
52:11thank you very much indeed okay thanks
52:13John appreciate it
52:17[Music]

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