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The Boy Crisis Explained - Why America is Producing Weak Men — Transcript

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0:00my guest today is dr warren farrell who
0:02is a new york times best-selling author
0:04written many different books he's been
0:06on many different tv shows i'm talking
0:07oprah winfrey phil donahue
0:10wrote a book called the myth of male
0:12power as well as boy the boy crisis he's
0:15got millions of views online and he's
0:17very comfortable making others
0:19uncomfortable and i would even take it
0:22as far as he's very comfortable
0:24sometimes
0:25unintentionally or intentionally pissing
0:27other people off so with that being said
0:29doc thank you so much for being a guest
0:31on valuetainment
0:32[Music]
0:55why do you think some people get
0:56uncomfortable when you talk about
0:58you know i i don't know what university
1:00was you were speaking at
1:01people were writing against you
1:03protesting against you they were not
1:05happy about you speaking some people
1:06just wanted to hear your argument but
1:08they tried to silence your message why
1:10do you think this message of the boy
1:12crisis
1:14you know some people have a hard time
1:15listening to
1:17well to answer that question we're going
1:18to have to go deep quickly
1:20which is that historically and
1:22biologically
1:23men were programmed to be disposable
1:26and we would be programmed to be
1:28disposable to be uh able to save the
1:31lives of women
1:32so every generation had its war and
1:34every generation had some version of
1:36uncle sam saying we need you
1:38um and and they and we we all knew as
1:42males that you know uncle joe who was in
1:44the marines was the respected um person
1:47in the family and we wanted to be you
1:48know we were being criticized by our
1:50parents we wanted to be respected so we
1:52accept the social bribe what i call the
1:54social bribe of being called hero
1:57to get that type of respect and then
1:59women learn to fall in love with the
2:01officer and the gentleman not the
2:02private and the pacifist
2:04so we knew we would be if we were
2:06willing to risk our lives to save women
2:08to save children to save other men um
2:11save the country uh that we would be
2:13more loved we would be uh the person
2:16that was you know fallen in love with um
2:18by the woman who wanted the officer and
2:20the gentleman and not that private in
2:22the pacifist uh we learned on some level
2:25that lois lane had no interest in clark
2:27kent of the same person in superman
2:30uniform uh what she fell in love with
2:33and so we
2:34so when when men complain uh women are
2:37programmed to fall in love with alpha
2:39men not whining men
2:41and so when men complain it spiels to
2:44women like
2:47let's say a chalk on a blackboard
2:50scratching his nails scratching on a
2:52blackboard how he feels it doesn't feel
2:55right to women women instinctively
2:57withdraw from men who express
2:59what concerns them
3:01they want them to be there to deal with
3:04what concerns the women and so
3:07in the in the process of becoming
3:09successful as a man
3:11is inversely related to the process
3:14of becoming successful in love and so
3:18since we have a lot of entrepreneurs in
3:19the line i'll be glad to take that one
3:21at a much deeper level but
3:23that's the
3:24the underlying biological and historical
3:27background as to why we don't we're not
3:29as empathetic to boys and men
3:31complaining or expressing their hurt
3:33their pain their feelings their fears
3:35now you know to go to go and i want to
3:37unpack that but to go back where the
3:39audience kind of knows your history
3:41you're not somebody that started
3:43thinking like this your entire life you
3:45were originally part of the
3:47uh feminist movement matter of fact i
3:49think there's a picture with you and
3:51gloria steinem who was the spokes person
3:54or spoken or even the leader for the
3:56american feminist movement in america
3:59and uh you were kind of going in that
4:01direction can you kind of walk us
4:03through your history and what made you
4:05flip and switch
4:08yes first of all i don't feel i have
4:09flipped and switched but it's definitely
4:11true that um i was the only man ever
4:14elected three times to the board of
4:15directors of the national organization
4:17for women in new york city and i spoke
4:20all around the world on women's issues
4:23and
4:23and my income came completely from
4:26speaking around the world on women's
4:28issues and i i suppose i was probably
4:30the um
4:32the best known male spokesperson for
4:34women's issues and so i guess that was
4:36very close to gloria steinem betty
4:37friedan and all the initial leaders of
4:40the women's movement
4:41and i think things began to
4:44and so i i never considered i always
4:46considered myself i would say
4:48a gender a person in favor of a gender
4:51liberation movement i never wanted women
4:54to be criticizing men or women's
4:56movement to be focused on criticizing
4:57men i never wanted a men's movement to
5:00be focused on criticizing women i always
5:02wanted both sexes to understand that for
5:04the first time in human history
5:06we had an opportunity to not be
5:08dominated by not patriarchy but because
5:11i don't think we were dominated by
5:12patriarchy we were dominated by a need
5:14to survive
5:15and to survive
5:17women and men in most societies played
5:19roles women's role was essentially
5:21raised children men's role was
5:23essentially raised money
5:25women didn't feel that they would get
5:28much social praise so uh they had social
5:31bribes to be mothers and to raise those
5:33children and to do that well and men had
5:36social bribes that you weren't worth
5:38much of anything if you didn't
5:40either participate in the possibility of
5:42being disposable in war
5:44or being disposable in the workplace
5:46either by
5:47working the hazardous jobs or by
5:50working 60 70 80 hours a week where you
5:52might die at the desk from stress and
5:54overwork uh but your job was to earn
5:56enough money to be able to support not
5:58just your wife and your children and so
6:01you didn't think much of yourself and
6:02other people didn't think of much of you
6:04if you are an unemployed person living
6:06in your family's basement um and hoping
6:08that a woman would save you but you were
6:10really good looking and uh sweet and
6:12kind and had a good emotional
6:13intelligence
6:16so
6:17then maybe let me ask the question
6:19differently
6:20i'm sorry i didn't
6:22do the second part of that question
6:23which is how you know what made me
6:25evolve from that and i thought but you
6:27said you said not much has so let me let
6:29me ask the question in a different way
6:31so
6:32if you've been the same from the 60s and
6:3470s till today
6:35then it would only be the right question
6:37to ask has
6:39the movement of feminism changed from
6:41what it originally was to what it is
6:43today
6:45the answer is three answers to that yes
6:48yes and yes
6:50yeah got it so the the original focus in
6:53the women's movement was
6:54um that there was that you know helen
6:57ready i am woman i am strong um it has
7:00increasingly become
7:02i am one i've been wronged
7:05hashtagged me too i've been wronged um
7:08women and then and then uh there was
7:11always an anti-male dimension to the
7:13feminist movement even in the early days
7:15my former wife who was a very wonderful
7:18woman
7:19said to me you know you don't want to
7:21get involved with the women's movement
7:22it's really anti a lot of anti-male and
7:25my response was well it may be anti-male
7:28for a while but i don't think that that
7:30will um increase um as men start
7:34listening to it and men and women men
7:36and women's roles tend to change and to
7:39modify i think both sexes roles will
7:41change and modify however i do think
7:43men's roles will change much more slowly
7:46than women's roles will change and my
7:48former wife um said it was that because
7:50you feel men have the power i said no
7:52they don't have the power to speak up
7:54about the limitations of their roles uh
7:57we
7:58are we are programmed to protect women
8:00and to be able to do what women ask for
8:03and right now women are the first ones
8:05speaking up um to be able to be more
8:07flexible at who they want to be
8:09to be able to when children come
8:12women express
8:13because
8:14they have three choices um choice number
8:17one is to be full-time with the children
8:19if they're married in middle class or
8:20above
8:22your choice number two is to be
8:23full-time with the workplace um choice
8:25number three is to be
8:27part work part-time
8:29and men also have you know say well we
8:31have three options too and option one is
8:34to work full-time option two is to work
8:36full-time option three is to work
8:38full-time or if they're working class
8:40men to work to um jobs and if they're a
8:43a corporate executive it's too um or uh
8:47in involved in their middle and upper
8:50middle class man it's often to work more
8:52hours at the same job or to become more
8:54successful so a person who was a local
8:58sales person for product x
9:00might feel
9:01much more inclined to accept a position
9:04as national sales person but as a
9:06national sales
9:07he finds himself um leaving his um
9:10experiencing the father's
9:12couch 22 and the father's catch 22 is
9:14learning to love his family by being
9:16away from the love of his family
9:18and um and so he um then feels he's he's
9:23he's doing this increased amount of
9:25money earning to be able to give his
9:28families his family options that he
9:30never had he wants to buy a better home
9:33and a better neighborhood with a better
9:35school system for his kids
9:37and a better home for both his wife and
9:39his kids and and so he gets caught up in
9:42that but then spends less and less time
9:44for the kids and wife that he really
9:46loves and he's working for until
9:48sometimes he does things that he learns
9:51he learns things to be successful at
9:52work
9:53that are the opposite of what it takes
9:55to be successful in love and he doesn't
9:58know that he's doing that and the wife
10:00and the wife and children don't know
10:01that he's doing that but you know i'll
10:03be happy to share with you what that
10:05tension is now that often leads to many
10:08successful men um ending up getting
10:11divorced or not getting divorced because
10:14their wife needs the security
10:15economically that he provides but he
10:17senses underneath uh that his wife is
10:20really hanging around to to love the
10:22children and have that security rather
10:24than feeling loved himself
10:26well let me let me ask this do
10:29so common reasons why women get a
10:31divorce common reasons why men get a
10:33divorce it's a different in my family i
10:35i've seen both
10:36uh my dad filed a divorce against my mom
10:39so it was more from that side but from
10:40your experience what are reasons why men
10:42filed for divorce over women filing for
10:44divorce well bigger picture first
10:48when
10:49women have a college education
10:51they are 92
10:53of the people who are
10:55filed for divorce when they don't have
10:57an education much like they've only
10:59graduated from high school as opposed to
11:00college um they're the percentages are
11:03lower um has so
11:05why so what
11:07was that why so um
11:09because when a woman has economic
11:12security she
11:15needs the man less for economic security
11:18she senses that if she sues she if she's
11:21a plaintiff she has some advantages
11:24legally that
11:26that allow her to be to make it
11:29likely that she will both get um a
11:32significant amount of economic security
11:34in the future and will also prompt the
11:37children he she basically has the right
11:39to the children he has to fight for the
11:41children and he has to if he fights for
11:43the children it will cost him maybe
11:45125 000 to a quarter million dollars to
11:48fight for the children
11:49and uh that that oftentimes
11:52it just breaks his heart so men and
11:55women who go who are going through
11:57family court
11:58men often get so depressed by the
12:00process that they're eight times as
12:02likely as the mother is
12:04to commit suicide
12:06and so it's it's a very
12:08um challenging process and because the
12:11the court system is really designed
12:14at its current um
12:16state um to um
12:19when a woman most judges feel that
12:21children do best with both parents have
12:23to divorce that's accurate and most
12:25judges agree with that however when a
12:28woman says i'm afraid of my husband not
12:30just physically but you know he might he
12:33shouts at me and he raises his voice and
12:36she gives a couple of examples of that
12:39then the judge often fears um
12:42um giving the custody equally to both
12:45sexes
12:46because if there's one time out of a
12:48thousand um that that in fact you know
12:51that man um is violent or uh physically
12:54abuses the woman or just uh overly
12:57shouts at the woman and she records it
12:59on a video cam uh that he feel he
13:02becomes he or she the judge becomes
13:05vulnerable to um being um
13:08losing her his position as a judge
13:13okay so so why do men file the divorce
13:17and you know again
13:19you hear stories about women
13:21why are some reasons why men follow
13:23divorce yeah well first of all both
13:25sexes file for divorce largely because
13:29neither sex feels heard
13:33that is the single biggest problem the
13:35achilles heel of all human beings is our
13:38inability to handle personal criticism
13:40without becoming defensive
13:42and that's true of both men and women
13:46when men do file for divorce it's often
13:49because they um they feel that they just
13:52can't take it anymore uh they feel that
13:55their alcoholism or their
13:58ideations of suicide
14:00or
14:01the the feeling that the uh the mother
14:03really doesn't like him anymore not even
14:06just not love him but not like him
14:08um and and then often and then usually
14:11somewhere along the way particularly if
14:13he's an executive or a corporate person
14:16and he moves around a lot and owns his
14:17own business he might go from branch to
14:20branch of his of his business and
14:22eventually meet somebody that really he
14:24feels respects him oftentimes his own
14:26secretary might
14:28be much more respectful of him than his
14:30wife and um and so he feels like there's
14:33somebody else that can love me that does
14:35understand me that that is proud of me
14:38um and um and verse and then he has an
14:41affair with her um and um
14:45and that leads uh to him feeling that um
14:48and then usually the new woman
14:50wants uh wants more than just an affair
14:53wants some security wants some lifetime
14:55intimacy he does too and so that
14:58accounts for the eight percent um of
15:00people who are men that file for divorce
15:02usually and or the greater percentage of
15:05the woman has um
15:07um less of a of an education and is less
15:11likely to file um then um that starts
15:14increasing to about 20 25
15:16of males filing for divorce
15:18so so doc you know the boy crisis i mean
15:22the
15:23crisis of education christ of mental
15:24health crisis of father and crisis of
15:26purpose you know you you talk about this
15:28and then i saw one of your speeches
15:30where you're talking about at the age of
15:31nine
15:32boys and girls suicide rate is the same
15:35at 10 or 14 boys are twice
15:38the chance of committing suicide then
15:40the girls do twice the amount of
15:41suicides as boys as girls do
15:4415 to 19 it's four times the amount boys
15:46to girls
15:4720 to 25 it's six times the amount boys
15:50to girls so if you don't if you don't
15:52mind unpacking the boys crisis i have
15:55some follow-ups whether anything to do
15:57with the upper again has to do with the
15:58divorce but i'd like to start with the
16:00boy crisis first
16:02yes
16:03when i first submitted my proposal to
16:06my publisher for the boy crisis book
16:08i had 10 causes of the boy crisis i was
16:11going to write a chapter in each
16:13and then the more i studied it the more
16:16i realized that the single most
16:18important cause by a long shot was that
16:20basically the boy crisis resides where
16:24dads do not reside
16:26um and when boys don't have when when
16:29usually
16:31when there's one parent
16:33in the game um and the other parent
16:35minimally involved or not at all
16:37involved it's usually the mother that's
16:39the primary parent and the the dad
16:41that's the secondary parent and in those
16:44situations the girls have challenges and
16:46more than the daughters have challenges
16:48in more than 50 different areas
16:50but the boys have challenges in more
16:53than 50 different areas also but their
16:55challenges are more intense they're more
16:58likely to commit suicide than the girls
17:00are by the by the data that you just
17:02gave they're more likely to move into
17:04depression when you remember when you
17:06measure depression come by male
17:09standards which is almost completely
17:11unheard of as opposed to just the female
17:14measures of depression almost all of our
17:16measures of depression our female
17:17measures the boys are much more likely
17:19to become addicted to video games uh
17:22girls and boys both play video games
17:24video games are very healthy at a
17:27reasonable proportional amount of level
17:29to the rest of life
17:30but when it comes to addiction to video
17:32games boys are far more likely to be
17:34addicted to video games than than girls
17:36are
17:37um boys are far more likely to be
17:39addicted to drugs to alcohol um their
17:43depression leads them to feeling that
17:44they're they're worthless and they
17:46become ashamed of themselves and
17:49they fear that they're going to be
17:50rejected by girls so they're much more
17:52likely to turn into pornography because
17:54pornography is basically access
17:57to a variety of attractive women without
18:00fear of rejection
18:02at a price they can afford
18:04and so guys as they as they don't do as
18:07well in school
18:08they don't feel as admired by girls
18:10girls tend to date winners not losers
18:13and so they feel that they're a loser
18:15and that they fear that they can't risk
18:17rejection because they know that the the
18:19girls they're most attracted to are
18:21taking the quarterbacks or the student
18:22body president or some other guy that's
18:24really sharp
18:26and on the basketball team etc
18:28and so they start
18:30fearing um becoming introspective
18:32becoming withdrawn becoming rebellious
18:35becoming um
18:37very coercive to their parents and their
18:40they feel badly about themselves and
18:42that leads them into depression into
18:43suicide into drinking into drugs into
18:46death from opioid overdoses and into
18:49addiction to pornography
18:51and so and that addiction to pornography
18:53is very dangerous because what happens
18:55from for boys
18:57who are addicted to pornography is that
18:59you know the first time
19:00they they are watching pornography and
19:03just watching a woman
19:04an attractive woman take her clothes off
19:06is really exciting for them but after
19:08they've watched that 15 times it loses
19:10the the excitement and so they have to
19:13keep upping the ante until uh they're um
19:17requiring things like um the only way
19:19they can get turned on is a woman doing
19:21something like um
19:23letting him come in her face and so but
19:27then they finally get a woman that is
19:29really interested in being with them and
19:31the woman um is um and they get together
19:34and she and he wants to do that and she
19:37goes you know and withdraws because she
19:40feels treated like a porn object because
19:42she's being treated like a porn object
19:44and so that's really um very um
19:47challenging um for the woman and
19:50therefore is challenging for the
19:52guy as well have you ever spoken to
19:54pamela anderson
19:56i have never spoken to pamela anderson
19:59no i think it may not be a bad idea to
20:00speak to her because one of the things
20:02she talks to her boys about is
20:04when she says sometimes when i would go
20:06home with a guy they would try to have
20:08sex with me as if they watched the porn
20:10and she said i taught my boys don't have
20:12sex with girls with what you see in porn
20:14because that's not how they like it i
20:16think it's a very good conversation for
20:17the two of you guys to have but that's a
20:19completely different subject that's just
20:21a suggestion for you so i would agree
20:22with her 100 yeah so going back to uh
20:25going back to what we're talking about
20:26here with porn
20:28uh the the visual you gave was very
20:30helpful
20:31uh i'm sure it inspired a lot of people
20:33to make some bright adjustments in their
20:35lives uh uh so
20:38but uh going back to this so you talk
20:40about a fatherless boys okay
20:42and statistics we see nowadays and the
20:44consequences of it one
20:47uh what is the number between fatherless
20:49boys and motherless boys is it a 98 to
20:52two like the boys that are raised
20:53without a mother how small of a
20:54percentage is that well we don't even
20:56have a lot of data on it
20:58yes um boy boys are far more likely to
21:00be raised by their mom than their dad
21:02it's about a nine to one ratio
21:03nine-to-one ratio okay so so let me let
21:06me go a little bit more deeper without
21:07the question so so boys okay so we know
21:09that we know that's going to be taking
21:10place is there an event that
21:13incentivized
21:14incentivized uh
21:16you know mothers to say i don't need a
21:18man to help me raise my kids i can do it
21:20on my own or has this number nine to one
21:23been historically the same where we've
21:25had a lot of you know fatherless
21:28you know homes where boys are raised
21:30without a father is there is there a
21:31trend that took place
21:33very good question and uh the answer is
21:36what in the 53 largest developed nations
21:40with the emphasis on the word developed
21:44in developed nations survival is not as
21:47big an issue in the middle and upper
21:49middle class as it is in less developed
21:51nations
21:52when survival is not as big an issue the
21:54society starts giving more permission
21:56for there to be
21:57divorces if you want that because you're
21:59moving from
22:00survival what you need to what you want
22:03and if two people are unhappy most
22:05societies that are developed allow some
22:08permission for divorce
22:09the churches are usually not as
22:12significant a role they play a role um
22:15but the
22:16pressure to to not be just uh to be
22:19disgraced at yourself if you uh if you
22:22get a divorce is not as great
22:25so you have
22:26so in the
22:28end you have more freedom to raise
22:30children um by yourself if you're a
22:33woman so in the united states at the
22:35present moment 53 percent of
22:38women who have children who are under 30
22:4153
22:43have have uh children without being
22:45married
22:46um and
22:47in general
22:49without the under 30 part put in uh 42
22:53of women in the united states at the
22:56present moment who have children have
22:57children without being married
22:59most of the time even among those
23:02who who have who are not married but
23:05they're living with a man at the time
23:06that they have children those
23:08relationships last on average about
23:10three years
23:12and then usually after that three years
23:14the children
23:16have minimal or no contact with the dad
23:18uh when there's a split up and so the
23:21boy crisis resides
23:23among those boys who have minimal or no
23:27contact with the dead and even and
23:30they've had that contact for the first
23:32few years but then they feel abandoned
23:34and lost by that dad and boys you know
23:37the girls at least have the role model
23:39of a mother as to what it is to be a a
23:41female but the boys don't have the role
23:44model of a father or if they have a role
23:46model the father that father after the
23:48mother and father break up or the father
23:51is often bad mouthed by the mother he's
23:52very narcissistic that's why we broke up
23:54he's very self-centered and he's very
23:57he's not reliable he's not um
24:00you know he's a liar things like that
24:02and the boy begins to look in the mirror
24:04and worry that maybe he's looking in the
24:06mirror because he's a narcissist or he's
24:08you know he remembers lying to this a
24:10friend of his or he remembers being
24:12unreliable in this way or that way and
24:14he begins to fear that the qualities
24:16that
24:17that the father is being condemned for
24:19that led to the breakup of the mother
24:20and father are also qualities that he
24:22has and but he can't talk to the father
24:24about that because that'll only
24:26destabilize the relationship when the
24:28father and mother have a fight can't
24:29talk to the mother about that from the
24:31same destabilization fear and so he just
24:34shuts up about that keeps that inside of
24:36himself and it becomes a problem that
24:38leads to you know depending on the
24:40personality of the boy it either leads
24:42to minor problems or very major
24:44psychological problems that that
24:46oftentimes boys don't go to the
24:47psychologist and they don't work those
24:49things out
24:50and so among divorced families
24:53the challenge is even greater
24:55because the the children are often
24:57seeing the mother and father argue
25:00the the arguments are not compassionate
25:03arguments where gee i heard you say this
25:06tell me more about what you said that i
25:08had to sort anything about um here's
25:10what i heard you said did i distort
25:12anything am i missing anything is there
25:13anything more that you want to ask
25:14sweetheart
25:15tell me more that is not the
25:17conversation that the the children of
25:19divorce tend to hear
25:20and so for the past 30 years i've been
25:23conducting couples communication
25:24workshops around the country because i
25:26wanted to prevent the divorces i wanted
25:29children to have
25:31parents that had happy relationships
25:33positive relationships that that had
25:36that had differences of opinion but they
25:38knew how to hear each other to work
25:40those differences through and so
25:42therefore there would as a result of
25:44that be fewer divorces and therefore
25:46they would as a result of that um be
25:48fewer boys that didn't have uh very much
25:50father involvement and so um i've sort
25:53of gone back to the root cause of the
25:55boy crisis which really wasn't um boys
25:58alone but it was
26:00families breaking up
26:02builder boys not having a dad to work
26:04with and not having good communication
26:06role models
26:08in their parents and therefore those
26:09boys and the daughters of these of these
26:12divorced families are far more likely to
26:15have divorces themselves uh when and and
26:18bad communication um methods as they
26:20grow up
26:22do our taxes does our tax system benefit
26:26uh
26:27single mothers
26:28having more kids without relying on a
26:31husband just to say you know if i have
26:33another kid i'm going to make an
26:35additional xyz amount of money per year
26:37so i don't need another man because i'm
26:39going to get a benefit that's coming
26:40from the government
26:42does that take into account because
26:44again as somebody that's been in the
26:45financial industry all i'm looking for
26:47is data to show me what flip did a tax
26:49incentive flip did a new program flip
26:52did a new method of teaching in our
26:54educational system flip what was it that
26:56caused this to become
26:58the number that it is today
27:00the main flip was the option of
27:04developed nations that didn't have to
27:07worry about survival
27:09the second flip
27:10was the government became a substitute
27:13husband
27:14when it started to make
27:16laws saying that if a woman
27:19didn't have a man that she was living
27:22with or was not married to a man
27:25that she could get money from the
27:27government
27:28and so the government became a
27:30substitute husband and this was
27:32institutionalized through many many
27:34programs like women infants and children
27:37which makes it clear that it's not men
27:39infants and children it's not couples
27:41infants and children it's not infants
27:43whose parents don't make enough money
27:46so particularly in inner-city
27:48communities where that were poor
27:50oftentimes and particularly in
27:52african-american black communities uh
27:54there was often times the the the black
27:56male uh was not making a lot of money
28:00and in those cases what he wasn't um the
28:03woman and the black male um both usually
28:07a black woman and a black male man
28:09calculated that there was um a an
28:12inadequate amount of money that was
28:13coming from the father to support the
28:15children effectively so she
28:18made sure that the father did not live
28:20with her and so then
28:23so she could get the money from the
28:24government
28:25and that money came in multiple forms
28:27but not just through the women infants
28:29and children forms and um and so the
28:31woman felt that the best way to protect
28:33her children
28:35was to not have the father around but it
28:37turned out and that that that was the
28:40worst way to protect her children
28:41because of the children without children
28:44without a dad are most vulnerable now
28:47we've known this since
28:491965 when the moynihan report came out
28:52and
28:54daniel patrick moynihan was a
28:55sociologist a u.s senator a department
28:57of labor
28:59a cabinet executive under both
29:01republicans and democratic presidents
29:04and he
29:05was asked because he had such
29:07qualifications to do a report of what
29:09was created crime in the inner city and
29:12everybody was going oh my god this is
29:14going to end up you know blaming crime
29:16on blacks because we know that in the
29:18inner city very frequently blacks commit
29:20crimes and
29:22what came out was a very different
29:23report than many people expected and
29:25which was that that crimes were not
29:27created by blacks per se
29:29that crimes were created by the that
29:31those people
29:33in the inner city who were being raised
29:37uh without debts
29:39and that at the time in 1965 was 25
29:43of the males in the inner city uh
29:46almost all blacks um that that would be
29:50among black males
29:52among black families uh 25
29:55of the children were being raised
29:57without their dads in 1965.
29:59today
30:00the percentage is more than 70
30:03among black males
30:05among caucasian males at the 1965
30:09it was only 3.2
30:12of caucasian males that were being
30:14raised without their dads today
30:17it is 35 percent of caucasian males
30:21being raised without their dads so the
30:23caucasian males being raised without
30:25their dens today
30:27is higher than it was for black males in
30:301965 and we're seeing a huge amount of
30:34dysfunction among both black males and
30:37caucasian males today
30:40and much
30:41more among caucasian males than we were
30:44seeing among black males in the
30:461960s and mid 60s do we know why
30:51yes because the lack of father
30:54involvement
30:55leads many boys to feel that that they
30:58um
31:00they don't usually have postponed
31:02gratification so i'll give i'll give you
31:05an example
31:06of what happens so
31:08moms and dads tend to set boundaries the
31:11same way they both care about their
31:13children they say sweetie you can't have
31:15your ice cream until you finish your
31:16peas
31:17children intended to test boundaries the
31:19same way
31:21they want to have as few peas as
31:23possible before they get their ice cream
31:25the difference between moms and dads on
31:27average and sometimes this is reverse
31:30the roles are reversed on average the
31:32the um difference is that when the child
31:36says to mom you know i don't want to
31:38have my p's i had a bad day in school
31:41today i was bullied by somebody where
31:43the mom and dad are divorced and then
31:45mom feels guilty about the divorce and
31:47that feels this the child must be very
31:49stressed
31:50her empathy tends to step forward about
31:53uh and she says to herself some version
31:55of i'm not going to get into a big
31:57argument about a few p's this is
31:59ridiculous now when they're married and
32:01the father does get in
32:03in forces they can't have the peace
32:04until the um the uh they can't have the
32:07ice cream until they have the peas uh
32:09the mother feels the dad is being
32:11insensitive uh when they're divorced and
32:13the thoughts and the children are going
32:14over to the father's house the father
32:16says i'm sorry we had a deal here now
32:18the deal is you can't have your ice
32:19cream until you finish your beans and
32:21the child says you're so mean you know
32:23mom that lets me have my peas when i've
32:25had a bad day like this and so with her
32:27dad the children learn that they have to
32:29focus on finishing their peas
32:33in order to get
32:34their ice cream
32:36and because that's not going to give in
32:39and empathy will not
32:41the the the child cannot coerce or
32:44manipulate the father's emotions in
32:46order to get the ice cream uh before he
32:50finishes the piece
32:51whereas with mom the child is learning
32:54ah i can manipulate a better deal here
32:57mom says okay i know you're you know
32:58you've had a bad day so i'll tell you
33:00what just have half the piece and so the
33:02child realizes ah this is negotiable so
33:05it begins to try to have half the half a
33:07piece and um and then and then the mom
33:10says okay i'm again the child at least
33:12tried it's had they've had a bad day
33:14okay so now the child is learning that
33:16with mom i can manipulate better deals
33:19and so the skill set that the child with
33:22mom often learns is that of manipulation
33:25but also a lack of respect for the mom's
33:27boundaries
33:28and so the mom finds herself repeating
33:31and repeating the boundaries um
33:34and where dad
33:36after a while does not have to repeat it
33:38because dad's made clear
33:39that when the child does not finish the
33:41peas
33:42there's no ice cream so the child learns
33:45to focus on doing what he or she needs
33:48to do
33:49in order to get what she or he wants the
33:52ice cream and so the child is learning
33:54with the dad is postponed gratification
33:57and as most people know post bone
34:00gratification is the single biggest
34:02predictor of success or failure so the
34:05boy without postponing gratification
34:07goes to school uh has homework to finish
34:10but is much more likely to get
34:11sidetracked by an invitation from a
34:13friend to play a video game and so or he
34:16has a real great of potential as a
34:18basketball or a football player or as an
34:20actor or a musician but he doesn't have
34:22the discipline um to uh to become one of
34:25the best actors musicians basketball
34:27players
34:28so other is beat him out that are even
34:31less talented than he is for that role
34:33and he begins to feel ashamed of himself
34:35and sometimes depressed and again no
34:37girls are interested in the losers
34:39they're interested in the winners and so
34:41he starts turning in on himself and
34:43becoming withdrawn and his own only
34:45friends are the online friends that he
34:47doesn't have real friends that will help
34:49him move or do something when it really
34:51counts and so this leads to depression
34:54and in worst-case scenarios uh the
34:56increase in suicides and a lot of that
34:59comes from not having a dad
35:01that is there to
35:03guide him to help him take risks to help
35:06him be disciplined at doing what he
35:08wants to do
35:09moms are very good at helping their
35:11children both girls and boys identify
35:14their talents and pursue them but very
35:17frequently the children without a dad
35:20does not have the discipline to
35:21successfully become outstanding at the
35:24most fulfilling things you want to be an
35:26engineer or um you need um you need that
35:30discipline but also if you want to be an
35:33artist a writer a musician if you want
35:35to ever make a living at it
35:37or a basketball player and join the nba
35:40you've got to be extremely disciplined
35:45uh that was great so on your points
35:48you've written here you know in the book
35:50the christ of education christ and
35:51mental health christ the father christ
35:53of fathering purpose
35:54all that stuff but
35:56how much how much of um
35:59the crisis i know you said yeah 10 so i
36:00don't know the other six what they were
36:02but how much do you think the role of
36:04media and movies play
36:06in uh who this kid wants to be meaning
36:10uh i'm growing up who's the hero if the
36:12hero to me was like this strong
36:15military general uh you know what when i
36:17grow up i want to be general patton or
36:19whatever you know when i grow up i want
36:21to be like you know uh
36:23a john f kennedy i want to be like
36:25reagan i want to be like whoever it is i
36:27want to be like uh
36:28you know um
36:30clint eastwood i mean he's a man's man
36:33you know i want to be like this guy
36:35how much has the media change would
36:37portray
36:38who the ideal male is
36:41that is loved admired and respected and
36:45does that have a big influence on how
36:47boys adjust
36:49to get that necessary attention like oh
36:51my gosh today's boys are a little bit
36:52more silly i'm going to be silly because
36:54that gets the right attention versus man
36:56today's men are strong i want to be
36:58strong because that gets the respect i
37:00want do you think media plays a big role
37:01in that
37:03you know media does play an important a
37:04very important role um and
37:07we still have the same basic image of
37:10men uh today um
37:12on one level uh that is the man that the
37:16woman is interested in and attracted to
37:20is some version of superman however the
37:24images of the father on tv
37:27are the archie bunkers are the um you
37:29know the fathers that are just um that
37:32are the that are the goofballs and
37:34the
37:36analysis of advertising on tv where one
37:39parent is focused um uh it looks like a
37:41jerk or looks like a bumble you know a
37:43well-intended but bumbling um parent
37:46is not 90
37:48males as dads that are looked at away
37:50but 100
37:52males when there's only one parent being
37:55portrayed as a jerk
37:57100 of the time on your advertising
38:01it is the male being portrayed as some
38:03version of the jerk or a well-intended
38:06but bumbling sort of quasi idiot if you
38:09will and so we've gone to from father
38:12knows best
38:13to fathers no less
38:16as in our media images of dads and so
38:19it's the dad image that has really been
38:22um
38:24neglected that said
38:26there is recently an increasing number
38:28of positive father images and
38:31advertising
38:32and that's uh and that's but there's
38:34nothing close to what i feel needs to
38:37happen uh when i spoke to when i greece
38:39the white house of the the white house
38:42but i briefed the white house on the boy
38:45crisis book uh one of the things i
38:47talked with them about is developing a
38:49father warrior program w-a-r-r not
38:52worker um but warrior program um to
38:56encourage boys to um overcome the social
38:59biases uh that it takes uh to become to
39:03be valued as a dad uh right now if you
39:06if a girl in college or young woman in
39:09college uh approaches a male in college
39:12at a at a party let's say and she says
39:14oh you know let's you know what are you
39:16um planning to do when you get out of
39:18college and he says oh i want to be a
39:19full-time dad
39:21uh she's you know she's likely to find a
39:23journalist um in the in the room to come
39:25back and interview him
39:26but she's likely to not come back for a
39:28second and drink herself and so the guy
39:31gets the hint that you know i'm an
39:33aspiration to be a full-time dad or uh
39:36while the woman goes off and maybe
39:38earns the primary source of income or
39:40all the source of income
39:42that's the role that would be perfectly
39:44fine for her to play and he will be
39:46still attracted to her if she said that
39:48she wants to be the primary parent
39:51but very few he gets it that very few
39:53women are going to come back and and
39:55want to be with him if that's what he
39:58states as his life goal
40:00yeah i have a friend who's a full-time
40:02dad and the wife works and they've been
40:04together for 12 years 13 years
40:06and happily married so
40:09are you starting to see an increase in
40:10that and if yes why
40:13yes there is an increase in that
40:15fortunately why though
40:18why why is that happening
40:19because there is an increased amount
40:22well first of all um we are now at a
40:25place where
40:26two out of three
40:28of the people who graduate from college
40:32are female
40:33not
40:34not 60 40 60 40 are the ones that enter
40:38college but among college graduates the
40:40ratio is two female to one male
40:44so 60 40 get into college but men
40:48males in college are much less likely to
40:49graduate from college for a lot of
40:52reasons but the emphasis the the end
40:55product is uh the woman where we're
40:58twice as likely to have young women who
41:00are recent college graduates um that we
41:03are a male who's a recent college
41:04graduate so the the female is oftentimes
41:07um
41:09as available to her
41:10men who
41:12may be good-looking maybe taller than
41:14she
41:15um but she knows that she's going to be
41:17earning more money than he
41:18and so then a big issue a big issue
41:21happens
41:23is she wants to be a habitable woman and
41:24she's really interested in um you know
41:27in developing uh you know breaking a
41:29glass ceiling uh she knows that to do
41:32that but she usually wants to have to be
41:34a habitable woman she wants to be
41:35happily married and she wants to have
41:37children and children that are well
41:38raised
41:40so she begins to adjust to say well one
41:42way that i can do that is to marry a man
41:46who is a nurturer connector type of man
41:48as opposed to a provider protector type
41:50of man and um but um oftentimes and she
41:55does that and the marriage will that
41:58type of marriage that is a woman who is
41:59the primary breadwinner and a man who's
42:02home taking care of the children
42:04if she truly respects him
42:08that marriage has a high percentage
42:10chance of working out very well
42:12so two things three things have to be in
42:14place she has to really want to be a
42:17career person and want to have a lot of
42:19her approval and respect for the korean
42:21person
42:22she has to adjust ahead of time to the
42:25fact that the man that she can respect
42:27the man who's taking care of the
42:29children well
42:30taking care of the social schedule
42:32cooking the dinner as well and so on and
42:35as she loses respect for him and she
42:38if she gets attracted to another man at
42:41work who's really successful who also
42:43seems to be attracted to her
42:45that can make her divided in her love
42:48and the marriage will very frequently
42:50end
42:51but if she
42:52has the fortitude to know that the
42:55reason she has a happy marriage and and
42:58the man is raising children that men
43:00will only
43:02do that
43:03with gusto
43:05if they feel the respect from their
43:07wives
43:08because almost every man instinctively
43:10knows that a woman who does not respect
43:13a man is not able to love that man
43:17so so in the case of jeff bezos
43:20and mackenzie
43:22you have a mckenzie marital guy who
43:24who's now the richest man in the world
43:26and they get a divorce
43:28and she goes and marries a school
43:29teacher got him dan i don't know jewett
43:31or some some you know
43:33you know
43:34nice guy i'm sure but he's a school
43:36teacher so you go from here to here
43:39is there is there also an element of i
43:42am so burned out with being with a
43:44driven alpha guy that i just want a
43:46regular guy like you know how we go
43:48through a breakup we're dramatic right
43:50we'll go from
43:51somebody that is you know driven
43:53competitive you're like oh my gosh she's
43:56so attractive to me and overbearing like
43:58i just want to date a regular girl and
43:59then you're like oh my gosh i'm so bored
44:01and you go back to this why why do we
44:03why do we and the reason why is this
44:05question from you is because you brought
44:07up your first wife and i think your
44:08first wife was a mathematician i may be
44:10wrong i think she was a mathematician or
44:12either you were a mathematician or she
44:14was a mathematician and you guys were
44:15married for night for 10 years you spoke
44:17very highly about her here on the
44:19uh you know
44:21interview and then your second wife i
44:23think has been together for 20 years now
44:25i i want to say it's 20 years give or
44:26take a little over 20 years so
44:30where do we get
44:31marriage wrong like
44:33i don't even know if most most men even
44:36know like
44:37the purpose of getting married like what
44:39we're looking for are we confused half
44:41the time when we're getting married
44:43yes to be fair and honest um both sexes
44:46tend to fall in love with the members of
44:48the other sex who are the uh who are
44:51often opposites and and often the least
44:53capable of loving them uh so men fall in
44:56love with beautiful younger women who
44:58are less mature uh than they are and end
45:01up um being very highly you know look up
45:04looking up to the man at the beginning
45:05and we feel really proud and approved of
45:08and so on um but then it turns out that
45:11we're a little bit disgusted in their
45:12lack of maturity and they're disgusted
45:14at our uh propensity for dominating and
45:18and having all the answers and the more
45:19mature she becomes the more she wants to
45:21have an equality in the relationship
45:23which was different from the dynamic
45:25that attracted the two of them
45:27but there's a lot of bigger issues that
45:29often happen here too so the jeff bezos
45:31case i don't know the situation
45:33personally but normally speaking or very
45:35frequently as a sort of model um the the
45:39woman will initially be attracted to a
45:40man who is very successful powerful dumb
45:43confident in himself able to be has a
45:46sense of efficacy um and so um but she
45:50doesn't realize that it's ex
45:52but that it's exactly those
45:54characteristics that will lead to their
45:57divorce here's why
45:59so
46:01what both sexes have an equal need for
46:03is a need to feel heard and understood
46:06but as the male
46:08who is successful becomes more and more
46:10successful he often learns a series of
46:13behaviors that are
46:16that are that help him become successful
46:18at work
46:20that is are exactly the behaviors that
46:23lead him to be unsuccessful in love so
46:25for example let's say you're a ceo and
46:28you're looking for a a new type of plane
46:32and you get a sales person trying to
46:34sell you a special engine um that they
46:37have for a new plane that will that they
46:39say will be perfect for you well as as a
46:41ceo you're listening to that sales
46:44person speak and you're thinking to
46:46yourself okay is this salesperson as
46:49convincing as another salesperson i had
46:51before and should i also interview
46:53somebody else will this work for my
46:55chinese market well will this work for
46:57these infrastructure that i already have
46:59set up for my chinese market uh will
47:01this um you know and and is asking a
47:04hundred questions like this
47:05while the person is talking
47:08um and so that person the a good ceo has
47:13learned to self listen
47:15um to be juggling the listening process
47:18with the uh with the yes but process or
47:21what about process and the
47:23cross-examination process
47:25that skill set for the good ceo becomes
47:28so ingrained
47:30that when he takes that that skill set
47:32home and by the way this can sometimes
47:35be happened to women as well
47:37not as frequently but i'll explain why
47:39both frequently and not frequently so
47:41that the male sales of the male ceo
47:43comes home
47:44and his wife says you know i've had a
47:46really difficult day at work or i've had
47:48a difficulty with the children but
47:50something's happened in the family and
47:52um and the male
47:54sees his wife the woman he loves the
47:56woman he'd probably die for
47:58um to is having a problem and so our
48:01instinct when our wife is having a
48:03problem is to while she's talking to
48:05figure out a solution because
48:07instinctively when our wife who i we
48:10love is bleeding to death the only way
48:13to handle that is to solve the problem
48:15to get the band-aids on her quickly to
48:17get it to the emergency room quickly and
48:20so um we we're we're behaving with our
48:22wife in a way that is looking for the
48:25solution while she's talking
48:27very few ceos or top level entrepreneurs
48:31realize that there is a solution for
48:33your wife's complaints and challenges
48:37and that is to listen
48:39not only listen by keeping your mouth
48:42shut
48:43but also listen by when she's finished
48:46the complaining not coming up with a
48:49solution
48:50but rather saying so sweetie what i
48:53heard you say was was this is and then
48:55asking is that accurate and then if she
48:58says no actually it's mostly accurate
49:00thank you for listening but i i think
49:02you got this wrong not saying no no i
49:04said that
49:05not becoming defensive about what she
49:07feels we got wrong but being right in
49:10there saying so it's not what i said but
49:12it's this is that correct and then she
49:15goes yes that's correct okay did i miss
49:17anything and uh understanding what
49:20you're saying
49:21um yes i think you've missed this no no
49:23no i think i got that i said that
49:24because this no
49:26shut your mouth listen
49:28work on what she feels you miss because
49:30the only thing that counts
49:33is what she feels that you've missed and
49:35then when she begins to feel safe
49:37because you didn't distort anything you
49:39didn't miss anything say is there
49:41anything new that you'd like to add
49:43that leads to a woman or when a woman
49:46does the same thing for a man in reverse
49:49that leads to your partner feeling heard
49:52but the great majority of men
49:55move to fixing the problem
49:58as opposed to understanding that you can
50:02fix the problem by not fixing the
50:05problem the fixing of the problem is the
50:07listening process
50:09hearing
50:11and then letting your wife or your
50:13daughter or your son
50:15say
50:16here's what i heard you say son
50:18daughter wife
50:20uh mom dad
50:22um and then mom and dad daughter wife
50:25uh she a son feels really hurt
50:28and then
50:29and being open to anything you distorted
50:32open anything that you missed
50:34and so this is what i teach in my
50:36couple's communication courses in much
50:38greater depth than i've explained here
50:41and invariably one of the men in the
50:42chorus will say well no i'm not really
50:45fixing it then i'm not really attending
50:47to
50:47her real need she's hurting why am i not
50:50solving the problem for her and i have
50:52to work with him that hearing the
50:54listening process
50:56in the way i just described it is the
50:59solution
51:01the fixing of it leaves your wife
51:04children or parents feeling unheard
51:07people need to be heard
51:09before they are asking for a solution
51:12beyond being heard
51:14so let me let me ask you a question i
51:15think i'm getting a read on what you're
51:17saying are you insinuating that we
51:19should add term limits to marriage
51:22absolutely not um the term limits to
51:25marriage should be
51:28there should be no term limit to
51:29marriage like i'm talking like you get
51:31married four years and you campaign with
51:32all the family i think we should go one
51:34more four years
51:35you are you saying that's a good idea
51:37term limits
51:38yeah so you can do it that way but i
51:41think the the um i i think it's the
51:43second best way of doing it i think
51:45that's giving you a hard
51:49let's this time i was i was involved
51:51with my wife for 27 years and we took
51:53eight years before we decided to we
51:56actually got married and during those of
51:58um first eight years it was sort of like
52:01you know re-examining whether this was
52:03the right person for us we were very
52:05different people and so we really needed
52:07my couple's communication course to
52:09really hear each other really well
52:11in order to see that the differences
52:13made much less differences the
52:15difference in the love we had
52:17then um 17 years ago we got married
52:19married and my attitude when i got
52:22married
52:23i'm in this forever
52:24um you know there's no
52:26i may find another woman attracted but
52:29i've made my commitment and
52:31and that
52:33level of commitment that i made when i
52:35got married really was meaningful to me
52:38and there's there are things that
52:39happened in the ceremony of marriage in
52:41the ceremony of marriage you bring the
52:42people you love and care for around you
52:45they see you make that commitment when
52:48you make that commitment and you see the
52:50people you love
52:51see you make that commitment something
52:53changes in your brain your r c z your
52:56rostral cingulate zone in your brain
53:00is is special knowing that the people
53:03who you love are approving of you
53:06getting married and they will approve of
53:08you more when you remain married and
53:11that gives you a little extra oomph to
53:13go through the hard times um to um to to
53:16work things through that are that are
53:18challenging and then we had the couple's
53:20communication course where
53:22the the
53:24the the very
53:26disciplined process of teaching men and
53:29women how to listen to each other uh
53:31that goes beyond anything that i've seen
53:33um so far so let me um is if you don't
53:36mind going to the the the because i only
53:39have like seven minutes and i want to
53:40make sure i get these two other
53:41questions in there as well uh in on in
53:44the area of pay gap
53:46so you know it's a very common debate
53:48that you always hear on the political
53:50side that happens well women are not
53:52getting paid it's not fair it's not this
53:53so one side says female athletes should
53:56get paid as much as male athletes and
53:58then the argument will be made as female
53:59athletes in certain sports like
54:01gymnastics is more but maybe in
54:03basketball it's not more doesn't get as
54:05many viewership as male athletes do
54:08where did this pay gap argument come in
54:10and does it have any credence uh and if
54:13it does in certain industry is there
54:15some areas where it has no credence in
54:18yes well first of all this is such an
54:21important question that i literally
54:22wrote an entire book to answer this
54:24question
54:25called why men earn more the startling
54:27truth behind the pay gap and what women
54:29can do about it and the most important
54:31part of why men earn more i think is my
54:34discussion of the 25 differences between
54:38what men do
54:40in the workplace
54:41and in their work life balance and what
54:44women do in their work life balance
54:47so
54:48some quick insights
54:50never married men
54:52and never married women
54:54who have never had children
54:57that never married women out earn and
55:00their married men
55:02by 17
55:05and the never married women who have
55:07never had children
55:09have out earned the never married men
55:12who have never had children
55:14since the 70s wow
55:16that gives you some sense that
55:18the pay gap predominantly
55:21is not just about these 20 is about
55:23these 25 different um decisions
55:26that men and women make but it's usually
55:29not just men and women or single men and
55:31women
55:32it is rather
55:33married men and women with children the
55:36pay gap is much much less about men and
55:39women than it is about dads versus moms
55:42when dads become dads
55:44they tend to
55:46um
55:47give up jobs that they are fulfilling
55:49that pay less
55:51they love being an elementary school
55:53teacher but they realize that being a
55:55superintendent of schools or a principal
55:57will pay them twice as much even though
55:59they hate administration
56:01so they give up becoming that passionate
56:03elementary school teacher to do
56:05something that will support their family
56:06better they love being a musician an
56:09artist a writer or an actor
56:11but they all pay very little and
56:13starving artists so they give up those
56:16gigs and that those passions of
56:18fulfillment to pace to get something
56:21that pays more
56:22but the more fulfilling the job the less
56:25it pays on average the road to high pay
56:28is a toll road men when they become
56:32when they're just men who are who don't
56:34have children they they want to do
56:36what's fulfilling like women do but when
56:38they have children they're willing to
56:40give up doing what's fulfilling to and
56:42look at the things that pay more that
56:44they may like a lot less that they
56:46usually do like a lot less work more
56:48hours than they want to work because
56:50their job is no longer to please
56:52themselves their job is to make sure
56:55that their wife and children are secure
56:57and move to good neighborhoods with good
56:59schools and that their wife that their
57:01children have opportunities that they've
57:03never had as a result of those
57:05sacrifices and so that's where the pay
57:08gap resides
57:09and if you wish to really understand the
57:12pay gap look at those 25 differences and
57:15work life choices and i'll explain
57:17explain in the white men and learn more
57:18book exactly what those differences are
57:21worth financially and why the great
57:24majority of men do work that they like
57:27less that earns more and the great
57:29majority of women are more likely to do
57:31more fulfilling jobs that earn less and
57:34if you really do want to earn more
57:37you could look at any of those 25
57:39careers and jobs and decisions that men
57:42and women make
57:43that lead to earning more money but
57:46usually the earning of more money leads
57:48to less fulfillment
57:51so i asked i asked you earlier i said
57:53our goal on today's zoom is to be able
57:56to solve the boy crisis in 59 minutes
57:58i think we're making some progress i
58:00don't know what you say about that but i
58:01think we made some progress today doc i
58:03appreciate you for uh getting on the
58:06zoom here i've really enjoyed talking to
58:07you we're gonna put the link below to
58:09your book
58:10uh the boy crisis uh below for people to
58:13be able to find it we'll also put the
58:14link to your website where folks can go
58:15and find you but with that being said
58:17thank you so much for your time and
58:19being a guest on valuetainment
58:21it's a total pleasure i also want to say
58:23that a lot of men tell me that they
58:25commute or they're working out of the
58:27gym and the audible version is really
58:29more helpful for them to take in the um
58:31the um the boy crisis book fantastic
58:33we'll put the link below thank you very
58:35much great to take care real life
58:38so do you think there's a boy crisis yes
58:40there is thumbs up no i don't think
58:42there's a boy crisis thumbs down uh but
58:45i thought it was very interesting cena's
58:46perspective if you want to get his book
58:47we'll put the link below if you enjoyed
58:49this interview i did another interview
58:50with jordan peterson
58:52this was uh at the same event when i
58:55interviewed kobe the late kobe bryant
58:56and george bush if you've never seen
58:58this interview with jordan peterson it's
58:59a must-watch click over here to watch it
59:02and if you haven't subscribed to the
59:03channel please do so thanks for watching
59:04everybody take care bye

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