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The Body Language Expert: 4 Body Language Tricks That Will Make People Love You & Respect You! — Transcript

by The Diary Of A CEO · 14,945 words · 2,286 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00is body language really that important
0:02yes for example when you change the
0:04posture of people who are depressed it
0:06reduces their symptoms tiny tweaks lead
0:09to big changes Dr Amy Cuddy expert on
0:12the Behavioral Science of power Harvard
0:14Professor coined the term power pose the
0:16second most watched Ted Talk of all time
0:18now posture can affect some of the
0:20biggest moments of Our Lives your body
0:22language is betraying you fifty percent
0:25of our first impression is based around
0:27body language so the way that we carry
0:30ourselves really affects your life
0:32because if people feel utterly powerless
0:34they see challenges as threats instead
0:36of opportunities they are less creative
0:39less authentic so that's my mission to
0:43help people feel more powerful and
0:45become more socially Brave and there's
0:48all kinds of ways in which we can fix it
0:50is there a relationship there as well
0:52between our body language and
0:54attractiveness yeah there's research
0:56showing that if you
0:58that body language
1:02and in dating situations how we tell our
1:05stories to ourselves matters as I've
1:08read through your story there was
1:09bullying in your life
1:11it's the worst thing that ever happened
1:13to me I had to leave my job after I'd
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1:22them still
1:24um
1:28I think this is fascinating I looked at
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2:02[Music]
2:06Amy
2:08[Music]
2:09there's lots of um myths around body
2:12language and how important it is and you
2:14hear all these phrases about oh 80 of
2:16our communication is non-verbal or 90 I
2:19can't remember the numbers but you hear
2:20all of this stuff
2:21is body language really that important
2:23yes it is important absolutely and and
2:27it it is it probably affects you know
2:30about about half of our impression of
2:33others
2:34our first impression is based around
2:37body language
2:39I'm not maybe it's higher than that but
2:42I would say it's at least 50 body
2:44language isn't just us speaking to
2:47others we're also speaking to ourselves
2:49the way that we carry ourselves is
2:52sending messages back to our our brain
2:55about whether we're safe or unsafe are
2:58we threatened or not threatened are we
3:00you know confident or not confident and
3:04so how do we know that well the the sort
3:08of earliest studies looking at this idea
3:11about
3:12um Body Mind feedback we're focused on
3:15facial expressions
3:17and so we know that there are some
3:22mostly universal expressions of emotion
3:25that are facial and when I say mostly
3:27there is some debate about
3:30um you know whether they're entirely
3:32Universal to every single culture and
3:34exactly which emotions they are but you
3:37have things like happiness and smiling
3:39sadness and crying
3:41um you know widened eyes and surprise
3:43those things are Universal
3:46regardless of where you grew up and what
3:48you were exposed to so if they're
3:50Universal that indicates that they are
3:53hardwired that we're born with some
3:55Association in our brains
3:57so if they're hardwired can you reverse
3:59the direction of that wiring can you can
4:03you tell people to smile and will it
4:05make them happier and so the facial
4:07feedback studies showed that yes indeed
4:11you can uh that you you know and the
4:13first ones were were smiling and and
4:16mood uh so you know they had people some
4:20people hold a pencil between their teeth
4:22in a way that made them smile and others
4:25hold a pencil between their teeth in a
4:26way that didn't make them smile the
4:28people who were in this forced smile
4:30which did cause the contraction of the
4:34muscles around the eyes which which is a
4:35real smile even though it was a fake
4:37smile it's not just your mouth it's your
4:40mouth and your eyes they were in a
4:42better mood their mood lifted they liked
4:45the experimenter better they liked
4:47anything put in front of them better
4:48they felt happier than the people who
4:51were not in this forced smile it was
4:54then expanded to look at some of these
4:56other Universal facial expressions like
4:58crying and sadness
4:59and then
5:01people started to look at things like
5:04movement posture I would say the
5:07earliest work really was on breathing
5:10um you know when we get anxious we
5:13breathe quickly and shallowly
5:15and if you think about
5:18and I'm not sure that you ever had this
5:20experience but if you know you were
5:23called on in class say in high school
5:25and you weren't prepared or you had the
5:26first time you had to give a speech in
5:27front of class you know a lot of
5:29students speak very quickly and you can
5:32tell that their their breathing is
5:34shallow and they're they're breathing
5:35quickly that's that's a fight or flight
5:39response and so
5:42you know can you turn that around
5:45um and and so the the people who started
5:47studying this called this the relaxation
5:49response where they got people to change
5:51their breathing and I'm gonna I'm
5:53oversimplifying this but in essence
5:55you're breathing more slowly and deeply
5:58and that triggers a nervous system
6:00response that makes people feel much
6:03more relaxed and more confident and safe
6:06which impacts performance of their
6:08speech whatever they're doing yes or the
6:10context in which it was first studied
6:12was medicine and trying to get patients
6:15to feel calmer before stressful
6:17procedures
6:19her Benson at Harvard Medical School did
6:22some of that early work I think you know
6:23going back to the 60s and 70s so you
6:27know that was but it wasn't sort of
6:30linked quite to psychology because it
6:31was coming from medicine when you have a
6:34person who is suffering from major
6:37depressive disorder
6:38uh open up open their posture just for a
6:41couple of minutes
6:43and then have them fill out a depression
6:45scale afterwards they are less depressed
6:48when you treat people with PTSD
6:52by teaching them you know yoga poses
6:56that open them up
6:58it it reduces their PTSD symptoms so you
7:01know this is coming from all different
7:03fields of study not just from social
7:07psychology so there's a clear two-way
7:10relationship between my posture and how
7:14I'm feeling and then also how I'm
7:16feeling in my posture which communicates
7:18outwardly to the world about who I am
7:20and exactly I don't know if you know the
7:22answer to this question but it made me
7:23wonder as you were talking do you know
7:25how old language is I actually don't
7:27know the answer I don't know it's like
7:29how old is language
7:31between 150 to 200 000 years old
7:34and how old are humans
7:39okay so we have
7:41about 50 000 years of people not having
7:44sophisticated language and having to
7:47read each other's body language which a
7:49lot of non-human animals are doing all
7:51the time yeah exactly I mean you know
7:54it's it's funny we have these squirrels
7:56in our front yard
7:58um and they're really active and there
8:01are all kinds of body language signals
8:03but also these different kinds of chirps
8:05that they make and of course I was
8:09curious I looked this up you know is are
8:11they do these different chirps mean
8:13different things like certain bird calls
8:16really clearly mean certain things and
8:18the ethologists the animal behavior
8:21Specialists say that in with squirrels
8:24they don't mean specific things but it's
8:27it's still it's it's a body language
8:29signal so even it's not formal language
8:33but but they they still get the sense
8:36that there's something threatening
8:38happening or not
8:41or you know sometimes it's mating
8:43related but they're not as specific as
8:46bird calls which are closer to our
8:48language than say these squirrel chirps
8:51when you did that Ted Talk some 10 years
8:53ago I think from what I read it became
8:55the most viewed Ted Talk of all time in
8:57its moment it's it became second most
9:01viewed
9:02um and it has remained there for a long
9:05time
9:06so it it was never it was never the most
9:09viewed but it certainly went viral
9:10quickly
9:11why why do you think people care so much
9:15about this subject matter
9:17it's funny because you know it still
9:19gets five or ten thousand views a day
9:21and it that's it's 10 years old
9:25and I still get
9:2710 emails a day from strangers who've
9:29just seen it for the first time
9:31thanking me
9:33saying they felt that I was speaking to
9:35them
9:36and
9:38so there must be something Timeless
9:40about it that I that I didn't know I was
9:42tapping into
9:44but I think there was some universal
9:46truth that resonated across people
9:50across cultures and a lot of it was
9:53about
9:54feeling like an imposter I mean that you
9:57know I talked about imposter syndrome
9:58and the feeling like you don't belong
10:00there and it turns out almost everyone
10:04has this imposter experience and in fact
10:07the women who who originally studied
10:09imposter syndrome says she wishes she
10:12had called it the Imposter experience
10:15because syndrome indicates that it's
10:17pathological and it's not it's just it's
10:20so common so what I found you know I I
10:24was getting emails from first generation
10:26you know
10:29um
10:29um uh black college students I was
10:33getting emails from
10:34white males literally Swiss Bankers all
10:38of these different people retired people
10:41um uh 12 year old kids who felt that
10:45they didn't belong there what I think
10:48resonated was first it's okay you're not
10:52the only one who feels that way it's
10:54normal but also there are some things
10:56that you can do to to to get out of
11:00feeling that way and so it very much is
11:03about to me
11:06um people feeling understood I feel like
11:09it's when you
11:10you know you love a song it speaks to
11:13you it it it evokes a certain emotional
11:17response because something about that
11:18song makes you feel connected
11:21and
11:22I think something about the talk did the
11:25same thing it made people feel
11:27understood
11:29um and not alone in their feelings of
11:31powerlessness and not belonging
11:34and it gave them a blueprint as such to
11:37to be more
11:40to feel more powerful yes and something
11:42that was you know didn't require
11:44technology that didn't really require
11:46much of anything
11:49um
11:49to to change the way they felt yes and
11:52what is that blueprint
11:54I feel like there's we know so much more
11:57now than we knew then
11:59then we we were having people adopt
12:02these expansive you know what we call
12:04power poses for a couple of minutes and
12:07looking at how it changed the way they
12:08felt
12:09um you know standing with their hands on
12:12their hips for example or in the victory
12:14pose with their arms up as if they had
12:16just crossed the finish line and won you
12:18know Usain Bolt for example and it
12:21changed the way they felt so that was
12:24the blueprint was was before you go into
12:26this stressful situation you know find a
12:29private space it's funny I said a
12:31bathroom stall I had not scripted that
12:34that's just what came out and so many
12:36people say I stood in a bathroom stall
12:38and um Power pose before the job
12:41interview or before pitching an idea or
12:43something like that uh and and it
12:46changed the way I felt
12:47and so that was the blueprint but I I
12:50feel like the idea of being expansive is
12:52so much more expansive than that
12:55um it's it's the way we walk it's taking
12:57longer strides
12:58um swinging our arms more it's uh it's
13:02talking more slowly it is which is
13:05taking up temporal space it's that
13:07breathing breathing more deeply and more
13:10slowly it's all there are all kinds of
13:13ways in which we can expand
13:17that will change our feeling of agency
13:20of power
13:21not power over others but power over
13:24ourselves or power too
13:26and when that happens it activates what
13:30psychologists call the behavioral
13:31approach system and the approach system
13:35causes us to see challenges not as
13:39threats but as opportunities it causes
13:41us to see other people not as potential
13:44Predators or competitors but as possible
13:47allies and Friends
13:49it makes us more creative because we're
13:52not feeling cognitively limited we have
13:55more of an abundance mindset than a
13:57scarcity mindset we don't feel as
13:59defensive we're more able to trust and I
14:03think maybe most important we're more
14:05likely to act so when we feel powerful
14:08we are more likely to take action not
14:11just on behalf of ourselves but also on
14:13behalf of others so when you look at
14:15research on say bystander intervention
14:18you know when do people step in and help
14:20in emergencies one of the best
14:22predictors is personal feeling
14:24personally powerful when people feel
14:27personally powerful they step in and
14:29help they go hey something's wrong they
14:32don't second guess themselves and think
14:33well maybe I'm not the right person to
14:35help they just do it they step in and
14:37help
14:38so you know it it has it has so that
14:41that feeling of power is linked to so
14:44many other
14:45uh feelings and and sort of aspects of
14:50our mindset that change how we approach
14:52life
14:53so as we expand
14:56and step forward the world expands
15:00so many people listening to this now
15:01will be
15:03unaware that they've been going through
15:05their lives signaling to themselves and
15:07to others a sense of they're in
15:10powerlessness yes
15:12um which is one of the first things that
15:13I I was thinking about when I had was
15:15reading through your work and watching
15:16the videos was that most people don't
15:18even know these are all unknown unknowns
15:20so they're feeling a certain way they're
15:22showing up in a certain way they're on
15:23stage hiding behind the lectern in a
15:26certain way and they have no idea the
15:28profundity of that signal that they're
15:30sending to themselves and others right
15:31what is how do I know that I'm signaling
15:35that to myself and to others what are
15:37the signs I think I ask people to do a
15:40kind of audit of their body of how
15:42they're holding themselves and it's
15:44funny when I when I'm giving a talk and
15:46speaking to a big group of people and I
15:48say you know now check your posture I
15:50can hear everyone immediately moving in
15:53their chairs even if the lights are low
15:55but I say no don't move yet check your
15:57posture because what you think you think
16:00that when you're not the one performing
16:03it your body language doesn't matter
16:04because you again we're thinking we
16:07think of body language as Just One
16:09Direction what we're saying to others
16:10but our body language is always speaking
16:13to us as well so I ask them to think to
16:15pay attention to what is their default
16:17even just seated position are they
16:21holding their shoulders up and forward
16:23collapsing their chest are they wrapping
16:26their hands or arms around their torso
16:28or
16:29powerlessness so like what's the it
16:32really is you know your your limbs are
16:35pulled in your shoulders are pulled
16:37forward your chest is collapsed
16:40um legs might be crossed and ankles
16:43wrapped I think the wrapping of the
16:45ankles matters more than the crossing of
16:47the legs if you watch sports and watch
16:51what's happening what what is the
16:53winning team doing versus the losing
16:55team you really see it I mean you see
16:58you know these big basketball players
17:01who are holding their heads in their
17:03hands and you know leaning forward and
17:07and they they look absolutely defeated
17:10um even though they're they're just as
17:12physically strong as they were five
17:14minutes earlier when things were going
17:16well so watching the body language of
17:18like athletes for example and then
17:21paying attention to what you're doing
17:22yourself I think helps us to become much
17:25more aware of how we're carrying
17:27ourselves but you can do little things
17:29like just when you get up in the morning
17:31you know if you wake up all curled up in
17:34the fetal position which is the most
17:37common sleeping position 40 of people
17:39sleep in the fetal position
17:41and we know that when people wake up in
17:44the fetal position
17:45they are more anxious than people who
17:48don't that is obviously correlational we
17:52don't know the the causal Direction
17:54because it might be that you're anxious
17:55and that's why you're sleeping in the
17:57fetal position nonetheless say you wake
17:59up in the fetal position stretch out you
18:03know into a starfish pose you know be
18:05Usain bold in bed before you put your
18:08feet on the ground on the ground one of
18:11my research assistants said that he
18:13would uh hold one of his hands on his
18:15hip while he brushed his teeth like
18:17little things that like that that sort
18:20of
18:21forced him to spend a little bit of time
18:23expanding
18:25really helped and I hear so many stories
18:27like this people rearrange their desks
18:29so that they have to stretch out a bit
18:32more when they're working instead of you
18:34know working like this over their phone
18:35you know how are you sitting in your car
18:38are you you know really close to the
18:40steering wheel and kind of collapsed or
18:42more open little things like that can
18:44really change the way you feel so I
18:47think it starts with just noticing how
18:50we carry ourselves how we carry
18:52ourselves physically how we speak how we
18:55breathe it's so interesting because I've
18:56got a
18:58a guy friend of mine who is
19:01um
19:02would be the first to say that he's very
19:04low self-esteem he's very disparaging of
19:07himself so when he walks into a room
19:09he'll
19:10insult himself so he'll say sorry I
19:12smile or sorry he'll apologize for
19:14himself take up very little room sit on
19:16the floor
19:18um all the time and all of these things
19:20which um
19:22we've always kind of noticed it but when
19:24you say all of these these things about
19:25people can Contracting when they're they
19:28feel powerless and taking up less space
19:30and being sort of self-disparaging I've
19:32always looked at that behavior in him
19:34and thought I I don't I don't know it's
19:36something deeper I don't know I don't
19:37know what we can do to or he can do to
19:39help himself what would you say to
19:41someone like that who's feels like a you
19:43know I mean like I was saying if you
19:45look at the clinical studies the
19:48research is pretty clear that you know
19:50sort of Body Mind feedback
19:54has significant benefits to people who
19:58are feeling because that sounds like
20:01sort of
20:02unusually low self-esteem right I would
20:05say that's several standard deviations
20:07below the mean if if that's how he
20:10carries himself and speaks about himself
20:12yes so everything you described was I
20:15just saw him
20:17I would say you know and again I'm not a
20:19clinical psychologist but if you look at
20:21the Clinical Psychology literature it
20:23very clearly shows that if you get
20:25people to change the way they carry
20:27themselves they feel better they feel
20:30different
20:31um I think you know I think to me some
20:34of the most compelling work is the work
20:36on combat veterans with post-traumatic
20:39stress disorder who feel utterly broken
20:42and often feel that they their bodies
20:45betrayed them
20:47and
20:49you know are living at home are unable
20:52to keep a job or you know keep a
20:55relationship going
20:58and the research you know there are
21:00researchers who have worked with them
21:02and taught them these you know expansive
21:03yoga poses and the effects are dramatic
21:07it it just makes it restores their sense
21:11of personal power their sense of agency
21:14and you know these are self-reports when
21:18I talk about the behaviors they're
21:20self-reports but the researcher who did
21:22a lot of these studies Emma sepula who's
21:25at Yale says that she would hear from
21:28these people a year later saying I no
21:31longer live at home I have a job I'm so
21:34much happier I'm dating
21:36and it's because of this because of the
21:38expansive yoga poses yeah breathing the
21:41expansive breathing expensive yoga poses
21:43but getting into the practice of doing
21:45that changes their lives
21:47you know I feel strongly that
21:51encouraging people to open up even if
21:56it's when they're alone you know because
21:58sometimes people close up in social
22:00situations because they have you know
22:02complex PTSD they have experienced
22:05trauma and they've or they've been
22:07assaulted they've been harassed
22:10um and they feel that they're protecting
22:11themselves so I think you start at home
22:14alone you start in PRI the privacy of
22:17your own home where you don't feel
22:18threatened
22:20um and then maybe you build it into
22:21these more social situations so instead
22:24of worrying about the impression you're
22:25making on others you think about the
22:27impression you're making on yourself
22:28first that's what matters how we tell
22:31our stories to ourselves matters
22:34100 agree
22:37I've been really compelled by this idea
22:39of what I've been calling the self story
22:40which is kind of what you're describing
22:41there which is
22:43um we all have this kind of story about
22:45who we are and how valuable we are and
22:47what we're good at and what we're
22:48capable of that governs Our Lives yes
22:50and it's written in every small thing we
22:52do that I sat here with um
22:54it's a bit of a different example but I
22:56sat here within a championship boxer and
22:58he was telling me that when he's on the
23:00treadmill at home it's a very different
23:01example when he's on the treadmill at
23:03home if he's told himself he's going to
23:05do seven miles and he gets to six and a
23:07half miles and gets cramped in his leg
23:08he will limp the remaining half a mile
23:10because he doesn't want to want to let
23:12in his own words the demons in and what
23:14he what he's really saying there is this
23:15idea that even though I'm alone and I'm
23:18No One's Gonna know or see I'm gonna
23:20know and I'm gonna write him to myself
23:21story just a new paragraph about who I
23:23am when things get tough yeah and that
23:25and I I thought so much about this
23:27because
23:28um lying kind of links to this in many
23:29ways because lying is this kind of decay
23:31of trust but also lying to yourself so
23:33like making a commitment to yourself
23:34that I'm going to do something and
23:36continually breaking the commitment to
23:37yourself even if nobody knows I think is
23:39just so detrimental to our our
23:41perception of ourselves like it's a
23:44downward spiral of the perception of
23:45ourselves absolutely I I I you know we
23:49we own our narratives and
23:53you know there's research even on
23:54looking at older people
23:57um and physical health outcomes I mean
24:00mortality and and the researchers found
24:03that older people who had more positive
24:06personal narratives about how they got
24:08to where they are in life lived
24:10significantly longer than people who had
24:12these negative narratives even if they
24:15had the same job the same kind of sort
24:18of on the surface they look the same
24:20they controlled for all those
24:22differences and still found that these
24:24the older people with these more
24:25positive personal narratives live longer
24:28again that's correlational but uh it's
24:31you know it's powerful and one of the
24:33things that happens when people feel
24:34powerless is uh that they are less able
24:37to be authentic right so when they when
24:39they present themselves
24:41say they are in a job interview they
24:44don't come across as authentic as
24:47somebody who feels more powerful and
24:49what's interesting is that the body
24:52language associated with sort of lower
24:55authenticity
24:57is sort of on the same Spectrum with the
25:00body language that's associated with
25:01outright deception
25:03right so when people are lying to
25:07somebody else I mean knowingly lying
25:11the body language that matters the most
25:13is not eye contact that's what people
25:15focus that they think eye contact is the
25:18most important signal it's not because
25:19people learn very different things in
25:21different households and cultures
25:24personality differences that change how
25:26people
25:27choose to make eye contact in different
25:29situations
25:30what matters is the asynchrony between
25:35the emotions conveyed with the words and
25:38the emotions conveyed with the body
25:39language so if you're telling a happy
25:43story but you do not look happy your
25:45body language doesn't look happy you
25:47know you don't come across as authentic
25:49if you think about you know being a kid
25:51and maybe you lied to get out of going
25:53to school and you told your parents that
25:56you were sick and you really weren't
25:58you're telling a story that's not true
26:00that's you know supposed to be sad so
26:04you're trying to get the the emotions
26:06right with your words but your body
26:09language is probably betraying you
26:11um you know because you're actually
26:13excited that you're going to sit at home
26:15on the couch and eat chips and watch
26:16reruns or at night rerun is probably a
26:19word that nobody uses anymore but TV
26:21um uh YouTube Tick Tock whatever so
26:26that that those asynchranies are the
26:29same as the asynchronies that you see
26:31when people aren't able to be authentic
26:33and of course in those cases that's not
26:36that the intention is not bad they're
26:38not in any way trying to lie to the
26:41other person in a way they're kind of
26:43lying to themselves
26:45um and then that spills over into not
26:49being able to show an honest expression
26:52of themselves to the other
26:54and people and and the funny thing is
26:57that people
26:59don't can't quite articulate so if
27:02you're an interviewer say in that
27:04situation
27:05it's very hard to articulate what was
27:08off but they know something was off and
27:11they'll say the person didn't seem
27:13authentic but they're not going to say
27:15oh well their words didn't match their
27:16body language yeah they would no because
27:19we you know when people are lying they
27:22can choreograph they can script the
27:24words but it's very hard to choreograph
27:25all the body language to go along with
27:27it it takes up too much cognitive
27:29bandwidth so but it does come across to
27:31other people I think one of the fun
27:33places to watch for this is on Shark
27:36Tank
27:38um is to to watch the the sort of the
27:40body language of these people pitching
27:42and sometimes you have people who come
27:44across at first as like super confident
27:46but the something about the way they
27:50tell their story does not match their
27:52body language and and the Sharks feel
27:55that you see them you see them almost
27:58cringe there's something off and they
28:01don't get the money
28:03and then you might have somebody who is
28:05you know let's say uh doesn't have a
28:09business school education uh doesn't
28:11have as much experience but really
28:15believes in what they're doing and and
28:17knows what they're doing you know yes
28:19I'm not saying that you can be
28:20incompetent you have to be at a certain
28:23level of confidence
28:25but they're able to convey their
28:27authentic conviction and passion about
28:29this project about what they're doing
28:31and the Sharks warm toward them you see
28:35them lean in toward those people and
28:38those people are more likely to be to to
28:41to to to find investors and the thing is
28:44those those signals aren't just
28:46short-term signals those people are also
28:49more likely to stick with it to inspire
28:53other people to uh to be promoted to to
28:57be successful in the long run it's a
29:00real signal that you're picking up on
29:01that you just can't fake and it really
29:04starts with how you tell your story to
29:06yourself is there a relationship there
29:08as well between our body language and
29:11our attractiveness I does my is there a
29:14certain body language that's associated
29:16with me being attractive if I'm single
29:18and I'm like you know I wanna
29:20I want to increase my chances of finding
29:21a mate yeah it's well it's interesting
29:24because you know people I think there
29:27were skepticism about whether women
29:30would be punished for
29:33um using more dominant body language and
29:37which I thought was kind of sad because
29:38it just reinforces The Stereotype but
29:40but there's Recent research showing that
29:43first of all they're not they're not and
29:46I'm not talking about super Alpha body
29:47language I'm talking about body language
29:50that's confident and warm right that
29:53that shows I feel good about myself and
29:55I want to be here and I'm interested in
29:57you that body language is is more more
30:01effective both in the workplace and in
30:03dating situations so people
30:05there was a study that looked at dating
30:08profile pictures on dating apps and both
30:11men and women with more open body
30:13language more confident body language
30:15were seen as more attractive
30:18so I I thought that was that that was
30:20very reassuring and also suggested to me
30:23that we're making some progress if that
30:25was true for for for you know across
30:28genders
30:30so yeah people want to be with somebody
30:32who is confident but not arrogant who is
30:37comfortable in their skin and your body
30:39language conveys that even in a still
30:42picture it conveys that
30:45wow if I am the type of person that is
30:49feels powerless inside of myself I'm
30:51suffering with a variety of a variety of
30:53different reasons
30:54um I know I know that there's as you've
30:57described there's there's things that I
30:59can do to tell a different story to
31:02myself publicly and privately is this is
31:05this a form of practice that one has to
31:07do is this like a yes is there a CIS
31:10like a like I go to the gym and I do
31:13some of my favorite work in social
31:14psychology is on what's called
31:16self-affirmation Theory when people
31:19think of self-affirmation they think of
31:21someone looking in a mirror saying I'm
31:23awesome I'm you know I'm the best I'm
31:26gonna win I'm a winner we kind of know
31:29that when we feel bad about ourselves
31:31saying I'm great doesn't help because
31:34now we just feel like we're lying to
31:35ourselves so we feel bad already and now
31:38we're like well I feel bad and I'm a
31:39liar sounds
31:41exactly so
31:43so
31:44self-affirmation is not that
31:46self-affirmation is this what what these
31:50experiments and there are hundreds of
31:52experiments now in self-affirmation they
31:54have people list the top two or three
31:58values or qualities that make them who
32:02they are like if I took that value or
32:05quality away from you you would say I'm
32:07just no longer myself like you are just
32:09taking a piece of me away
32:12they then have them kind of rank them
32:14and then take the top one and write a
32:17couple of paragraphs one paragraph about
32:20um you know a time when they expressed
32:22it and another maybe about how it felt
32:25to express it that is it that's the
32:28exercise they then have them do do
32:31difficult things like take a difficult
32:34math test for example or do a debate you
32:37know do it be in a debate competition or
32:40or
32:41um whatever something challenging that's
32:44unrelated right so if say I said
32:48um
32:49I value music you know I if if you took
32:53the experience of of Music away from me
32:56I just would not feel like myself and
32:59then I I did a math test
33:01I would do better on the math test
33:04after doing that self-affirmation
33:06exercise I likely I would be likely to
33:09on average people perform better
33:12they also even show decreases in levels
33:16of stress hormones like epinephrine so
33:19the idea is that you're anchoring
33:20yourself in who you are and what you're
33:23doing is reminding yourself that no
33:24matter what happens on that math test
33:26you're still going to be that person
33:28when you walk out and so it that math
33:31test becomes less important which
33:34ironically or paradoxically makes you do
33:36better on it and so I think that's a
33:39really good start is to just spend time
33:42you know kind of journaling about who
33:44are you what do you value but really
33:46what are those qualities that make you
33:48who you are to you not to others not how
33:52would others describe you what removes
33:55you like what really moves you
33:59it's not so interesting I've never heard
34:00that before because a lot of the time
34:01you kind of have to have the two camps
34:03where one campus says look in the mirror
34:05and tell yourself a bunch of lies and
34:07there's a whole industry about yeah
34:10I don't like it yeah and then there's
34:12the other cam which is Maybe
34:14uh I don't know if this is the other
34:15Camp necessarily but it's probably the
34:16school of thought I've always lived in
34:18which is you need to go and build
34:20evidence somehow new evidence about
34:22yourself right like counteracting the
34:24evidence that the limiting evidence or
34:26the limiting beliefs that are standing
34:27in your way yeah it's like
34:28self-perception Theory right if you see
34:31yourself doing it you you become it yeah
34:33and that's just a reflection on the
34:35areas in my life where I was like very
34:36low confidence and how I got from that
34:38place to being higher confidence came
34:41from
34:43straying outside of my comfort zone and
34:45going and doing nothing more
34:47um building evidence that I wasn't going
34:48to die I feel and I that works too I'm
34:51not saying that that self-affirmation is
34:53the only way to do it I I'm much more by
34:56the way in Europe I'm in your Camp I
34:58I get really frustrated with
35:02um it's all your mindset and you just
35:05got to tell yourself that you you you
35:07can create your life you know like how
35:09yeah you know I just there's so much of
35:12that and I feel like it's so confusing
35:15and discouraging for people because they
35:18watch people who they think are doing
35:20that
35:22in short clips and they're like well
35:25there they did it why can't I do it but
35:28but a lot of those people didn't get to
35:31where they are by doing that lots of
35:33people helped them get to where they are
35:35yeah
35:36um or you know they did other work but
35:39it's it's just or or maybe they're not
35:42where they aren't even where you believe
35:44they are they're actually really unhappy
35:46and just putting on this Brave face
35:49because simple cells right simple cells
35:52simple cells and you know
35:54um simple inspiration cells
35:57so just just just to close off that
35:59point about because I feel like there's
36:00going to be people listening right now
36:02um that identify with feeling powerless
36:05in their everyday lives and their
36:06working lives and relationships they uh
36:09they can spot all the symptoms you
36:10described of that sort of like
36:11contracted posture the self-affirmation
36:14piece loved it never heard that before
36:17um
36:19what else to get me out of that
36:20situation I'm thinking in terms of
36:22things that I can like either practice
36:24or you know how do I get from there to
36:26there
36:27well it's funny because I I talk a lot
36:30about
36:31how tiny tweaks lead to big changes and
36:34I I called you know there was a whole
36:36sort of nudge movement like how do you
36:38change people's behavior through these
36:39little nudges
36:41and I I talk about self-nudging you I'm
36:45not a I'm not a big believer in New
36:46Year's resolutions because they're two
36:48they're grandiose they require a million
36:50steps you're going to fail somewhere
36:52along the way and then quit I believe in
36:56just doing a little bit better the next
36:58time okay so the next time you go into
37:02uh give a talk for example to anyone if
37:07somebody's afraid of public speaking but
37:09has to to do to lead team meetings for
37:12example
37:12I want you to focus on changing one
37:15thing maybe it's your breathing you
37:17breathe more slowly and deeply maybe you
37:20make sure that you're not wrapping your
37:22hands around your body by holding a
37:24bottle of water or a slide advance or
37:28something something that forces you to
37:30keep your hands away from your body each
37:33time you get a little bit better and
37:36eventually you find that you're there
37:38and my advisor my grad school advisor
37:40Susan Fisk who I just adore
37:43taught me that because I almost quit
37:45grad school
37:46the night before my first year talk
37:48which is where you present the first
37:50year of research you've done just to the
37:52people in your department I was so
37:54scared
37:55that I called her and I said I'm I can't
37:58do this I'm going to quit and she said
38:01you're not quitting
38:02she said you're going to do it and even
38:05if it doesn't go perfectly which it
38:07won't
38:09you will have done it and learned
38:11something and gotten a little better and
38:13each time it's going to get better she
38:15said and I want you to give every talk
38:16you're asked to give take every
38:18opportunity that you're that that's
38:21given to you to improve and eventually
38:24you won't notice the moment when you
38:29know suddenly you've gotten there you'll
38:30just look back and go oh my gosh I'm
38:32here how did I get here through these
38:35tiny nudges so go easy on yourself focus
38:38on only one change in that next
38:41challenge focus on the situations that
38:45you approached with Dread that you
38:47execute with anxiety and distraction and
38:50that you tend to leave with a sense of
38:51regret
38:52each those challenges vary for different
38:54across people you know for some people
38:56it's public speaking for some people
38:57it's giving negative feedback for some
39:00people it's
39:02um having a difficult discussion with a
39:03family member whatever that challenge is
39:06for you
39:07I want you to do change one little thing
39:10each time you go into it
39:13so that you can in the end approach it
39:16with confidence execute with this calm
39:19confidence and leave it with a sense of
39:22satisfaction that you showed up that you
39:24did what you could do a lot of things
39:26that you can't control
39:28but it's much easier to accept a
39:30negative outcome if you controlled the
39:33things you could right if you know how
39:36often do people walk away from those
39:37situations and go I feel like they
39:39didn't see who I am
39:41you want to walk away and say they saw
39:44who I am and now they get to make the
39:46decision and I can't control whether
39:48they you know how how they evaluate me
39:52Beyond this I did I did my best that's
39:54where you want to get to I always think
39:56of um confidence and self-esteem and now
39:59powerlessness or powerfulness the
40:01feeling of it as an upward or a downward
40:03spiral that we're all kind of on like a
40:05self-reinforcing upward or downward
40:07spiral if that kind of I think it is so
40:09if I just to kind of I think that
40:13say something I'm confident at public
40:15speaking on stage for example I will
40:17show up better which means I'm likely to
40:19get a better reaction I'm likely to feel
40:20better after which means next time I
40:22show up better which means and the
40:23Spiral goes up or conversely it can go
40:25the opposite way downwards and the
40:27people that are on that downward so
40:28there's many areas of my life that I
40:30think come on and up would spiral I'm
40:31like I'm building positive evidence it's
40:33all going well and everyone's black and
40:35then there's some areas of my life that
40:36I might be on a downward spiral um I
40:38know I've got some good friends that I
40:40think are so far down that downward
40:42spiral that even telling them
40:45what your lovely professor she was a my
40:48advice my yeah she was a professor my my
40:50graduate school advisor they're so far
40:53down the bottom of that spiral that they
40:55would have quit yeah a lot of people are
40:57living in a state of survival which I
40:59actually think of like self-preservation
41:00or defense yes they're like just remove
41:02all chance of threat from my life
41:05and in that situation you never do get
41:07to go upwards on that spiral no oh God I
41:09just so many people are at the bottom of
41:11that spiral in their lives I know and I
41:13don't know what to do about it I I it's
41:15you know it's my responsibility but I
41:18just think no responsibility no it's not
41:19but but also I I do think that more
41:23people are in that state now than they
41:25than that compared to three and a half
41:27years ago how come I do I think the
41:29pandemic really took a toll on people's
41:32mental sort of
41:35um stability their their sense of self
41:38and I think we're going to be grappling
41:41with that for quite a while I mean
41:43people who we why did it why did it have
41:46that impact because we are wired to deal
41:51with a crisis that lasts
41:54like a couple months not one that lasts
41:57three years and not one that is yanking
42:02us around back and forth like oh we're
42:04emerging oh Delta we're emerging Omicron
42:08you know like it was just this
42:10constant back and forth and we so we
42:12were living in this liminal state where
42:15we had one foot on the safe side and one
42:18foot on the threatened side we get
42:20through crises using what's called surge
42:22capacity which is you know it's called a
42:24network of physical and and
42:25Psychological Resources that help us
42:28survive but that runs out pretty quickly
42:31and a lot of people say for the first
42:33two months of the pandemic they felt
42:34very productive that was Surge capacity
42:37and it's studied in the context often of
42:41um of of combat soldiers so like the
42:44first battle it's it's the emergency
42:46phase and they they are focused the goal
42:50is clear it's shared teams operate at
42:53their best good leaders operated their
42:55best then they go into this regression
42:57in between where they don't know what's
43:00going to happen next they lose a sense
43:02of purpose they become disconnected from
43:04each other they withdraw then they're
43:07back in battle in that's how this is
43:09gone it's going to take a little while
43:11to put the pieces back together again
43:12but I think I think that we we have to
43:15have some Grace
43:17and I mean toward each other with each
43:20other with ourselves
43:23I don't think it's going to be fixed by
43:26if we're too hard ourselves I think we
43:29do have to let ourselves off the hook a
43:30bit and go oh we've never lived through
43:32something like this earlier and we were
43:34talking about the things that make you
43:36feel powerless in your body language and
43:38the way you conduct yourselves and all
43:39these things the things that make
43:40someone look and feel powerful
43:43um
43:44I imagine it's the opposite in many
43:46respects but specifically if I if I want
43:49to and I want to because I really want
43:51to leave people with actionable things
43:52that they can they can do in their lives
43:54if I want to
43:56um
43:57become a better speaker present myself
44:00better show up better for my employees
44:04um or be a better podcast host and I
44:06think about this people I've never said
44:08this before people I spend so long
44:09thinking about how I'm sitting when I'm
44:11speaking to someone really yeah because
44:13because when I'm not thinking I might
44:14like fall into a certain posture I was
44:16I've even been thinking about these
44:17bloody arms on this chair
44:18sometimes I'm like this and this is my
44:21favorite situation to be in so like my
44:23body's open right and then sometimes I
44:25go like this and sometimes I crunch over
44:28into a ball and stuff yeah and when I'm
44:29having these kind of conversations with
44:31people I think that the best approach to
44:32take is to be open with my body language
44:34yes and then hopefully they'll open up
44:36with me yeah you know that's exactly
44:38right so I think
44:40to really simplify it and again as I
44:43said I don't love like choreographing
44:45but the body language that is I think
44:48the the most uh effective is to be open
44:53to be kind of leaning forward you know
44:55Palms up not wrapping yourself up not
44:58the whole time yeah but what what you
45:00want to be showing is I'm comfortable
45:02and relaxed with you I'm interested in
45:04you yeah and so I think that's that's
45:06the posture that you want to take on and
45:08people will mirror that one thing that
45:11people in general people mirror each
45:14other's body language right that's a way
45:15that we sync up but there's one
45:19exception and that's when there's a
45:20power differential so if a powerful
45:23person is interacting with somebody
45:24that's clearly less powerful the
45:27powerful person tends to become more
45:30dominant in their body language and the
45:33powerless person becomes more powerless
45:35and we call that complementarity so I
45:38think it's very important for people in
45:39leadership positions to be aware that
45:42when one of their you know employees
45:45comes to talk to them they're probably a
45:47little nervous and
45:50to be very mindful of their body
45:52language because you don't you don't
45:54want them to shut down you want them to
45:55feel comfortable and tell you what's
45:58going on share their interests or their
46:00problem or their challenge
46:02penguin arms I never had that expression
46:05until chapter nine of your book what's
46:07penguin arms it's when people people
46:09don't know what to do with their head a
46:11lot of people don't know what to do with
46:12their hands when they're speaking and so
46:15they kind of like pin
46:17they pin their wrist to their like
46:19around their hips and their hands kind
46:22of stick out
46:23oh okay you're gonna look like a penguin
46:25yeah it's it's really common for people
46:28who are afraid of public speaking you'll
46:31like they're like kind of moving their
46:33hands but they're afraid to move their
46:35arms away from their body besides
46:37penguin arms let me just get I've got
46:38this correctly is this penguin arms you
46:41mean this yeah but you're talking I'm
46:43like
46:44yeah exactly that's penguin arms okay
46:47and it's again because I'm I'm
46:49I mean one of the this correlation
46:51between how much space you take up and
46:52how powerful you feel right again that's
46:54me trying to take up less as little as
46:55space as possible right and I'm
46:57signaling so I'm speaking to you by
46:59doing that even though regardless of
47:01what my mouth is saying and if I'm like
47:03this
47:04yes I'm saying you're sending a
47:06completely different message exactly and
47:07people are remember the audience like
47:09even a whole audience is responding to
47:12you so if there's this whole
47:14self-reinforce there's reinforcement
47:16between you and the audience and within
47:18the self so if you're acting that way
47:22they might be mirroring you or feeling
47:25kind of uncomfortable because you're
47:27feeling anxious but you can make the
47:28audience feel uncomfortable because
47:29you're so uncomfortable for sure and
47:31then and then you read that and you feel
47:34more uncomfortable so it becomes you
47:36know kind of re reinforced through the
47:39interaction
47:41this is this
47:42interesting thing that happens to me
47:43once in a while where I'll be speaking
47:45to someone and it's usually someone I'm
47:48gonna be honest right so it's usually
47:49someone where
47:50there's a lot of things about them but I
47:52haven't told them
47:53and I find it hard to hold eye contact
47:54with them
47:56and I notice this about myself to
47:57certain people in my life where there's
47:59like unaddressed things that haven't
48:00fully spoken about and when I speak to
48:02them I tend to not look at them and I
48:04tend to just like be looking away or
48:06looking down and I I will occasionally
48:08glance over and look at them but this
48:10broader point about eye contact and you
48:12mentioned it briefly earlier on
48:14what significance does it have in our
48:16Communications and because I I find it
48:19the hardest thing I can kind of I think
48:20I can feign the body language I wish I
48:23could make that I I can't give you a
48:25simple answer and I that because there
48:28are so many cultural differences oh
48:30really in in when you make eye contact
48:33so kids learn such different rules about
48:36making eye contact
48:38UM you know a lot of kids are taught you
48:41don't make eye contact with an authority
48:43figure right so and then they're seen as
48:45lying because they're not making eye
48:47contact uh you know um but but but
48:50seeing it as rude to make eye contact it
48:53means you know in a lot of East Asian
48:54cultures eye contact you you don't hold
48:57eye contact for as long it's seen this
48:59very aggressive
49:01um
49:02in the U.S you can hold eye contact for
49:04quite a while before people feel
49:05uncomfortable
49:07but it's you know it so yeah it's I
49:10think it's one of the more culturally
49:11constrained Expressions what am I in
49:14primates I mean if I've watched all
49:16these primate documentaries and it's
49:18often the case that when primates kind
49:19of look at each other for too long it
49:21can it's often aggressive aggressive
49:23yeah I I don't I and again I I would
49:26have to defer to something like Bob
49:27sapolski on that one but I think um I I
49:30think that in non-human primates it you
49:34know great apes it is it is a sign of
49:36aggression
49:37it is like bring it on yeah
49:40and in certain contexts
49:42yeah again it's so contextual and
49:43cultural because as we were saying
49:46before we start recording in the US if
49:48someone stares at me in a lift I would
49:50imagine that they're about to say hello
49:52whereas in I don't know a rough part of
49:55the UK
49:56if someone stares at me I would check
49:58where my wallet and my keys are and
50:00assume that we had there's going to be a
50:02problem yeah so yeah yeah I mean and
50:06there are differences cultural
50:07differences within the U.S too is it
50:09possible to learn how to read people
50:11better in terms of their body language
50:12is that also something you can play oh
50:14for sure I just think there's some
50:16really great books like I I love Joe
50:19Navarro's work he's a former FBI agent
50:22he has a lot of images he really he's
50:24not a researcher but grounds in the
50:26research and has a lot of personal
50:28experience the book that I love is is
50:31what everybody is saying
50:34um by Joe Navarro so I would recommend
50:36that as a great way to start I think
50:38there are some that are sort of like
50:39more like
50:41how to pick up women yeah yeah and I
50:44don't like those this is just really
50:46understanding people and what's
50:48happening in an interaction I'm gonna
50:50confess that when I was 18 I read one
50:52such book about pickup artistry
50:55and um it actually it actually was very
50:59useful
51:00had this conversation with my husband
51:01it's so funny and
51:03it's like the one thing he was like I
51:05did read that oh yeah I mean yeah so it
51:07was it was useful because I love
51:09psychology I studied psychology at in in
51:12school as well and um I chose that for
51:14one of my a levels and it was useful
51:16from that perspective I mean it's
51:18probably why I do this now I was so
51:19compelled to understand why humans do
51:21what they do then I read this book which
51:23I didn't intend to buy I'm gonna be
51:24honest okay I've told the truth the
51:25whole time so believe me when I say I
51:27didn't intend to buy this book about
51:28pickup Artistry my older brother ordered
51:31it for home in the southwest of the UK
51:33when he'd gone he put the wrong address
51:34in when he was at University so it came
51:36home and he goes I'll just keep it so I
51:38open it and I opened up my bedroom floor
51:40and I did not move until I'd finished
51:41the entire book the first book where
51:43from the first page till the last I
51:45didn't move and it fascinated me because
51:47it was just it was like someone turned
51:48the lights on to this whole other
51:50language that I'd been communicating my
51:52whole life without knowing someone one
51:54of the really things I always talk about
51:55with my friends is this idea of pecking
51:57which is this kind of invasion of
51:59personal space that happens when you're
52:01when you meet someone you're attracted
52:02to yeah the music style out you lean
52:05into their personal space
52:08and how that signals like low value then
52:09they lean out
52:11um but all those things I found oh geez
52:13I am the worst if I'm in a restaurant
52:16and I see it a first date yeah
52:19it is it can be so I want to slip a
52:23napkin to the woman sometimes and like
52:26like the guy will get up to go to the
52:28bathroom and she is like you I'm I feel
52:30like slipping a napkin and saying run
52:33you know like it's just you can it's so
52:36clear so quickly how it's going what are
52:40the signs they are talking too much and
52:42not asking questions oh my god um I mean
52:44that that's I would say the most common
52:47and and believing that they're very very
52:50interesting
52:51they are yeah so interesting
52:54um and and it is leaning in and taking
52:57into too much taking up too much space
53:00and you can see the and I'm sorry I'm
53:02talking about straight couples and so
53:04because I I don't know enough about
53:08um
53:09other dyads but I mean in this in the
53:12context of body language but
53:14you see the woman clearly tensing up
53:19she's making herself smaller to get away
53:22she may not be literally leaning away
53:24she's closing herself up and she women
53:29were people in that situation when they
53:31want to get away they often do these lip
53:33presses like this
53:36um and so you start to see the lip
53:39presses
53:40and then making themselves smaller and
53:43you know and and leaning right in fact
53:45um we were watching a TV show last night
53:48that might be called The Bachelorette
53:49this happened and the the guy was
53:53holding her The Bachelorette like
53:55hugging her
53:57and like she wasn't
54:00forcefully lean away but I was like oh
54:03it's too close she really does not like
54:05that but she was being very polite it
54:07was like painful to watch so in real
54:10life well I've had to bite my tongue at
54:13times what's the opposite of that then
54:15when you look over in a restaurant
54:16because me and my girlfriend do this I
54:17think everybody does this well not
54:19everybody clearly but just weirdos like
54:21us that are into psychology who look
54:23over another couple and go they're
54:24getting on really really great they're
54:26into each other this is not because me
54:28and my girlfriend we go to restaurants
54:28we always think like is this a first
54:30date how long have they been together
54:31are they married are they into each
54:33other obviously the really bad examples
54:36is when they're both leaning out on
54:37their phones yes and I'm like oh my God
54:39yeah so not picking up their phones
54:42leaning in toward each other yeah um
54:45yeah good eye contact about balance and
54:49in conversation expressions of genuine
54:52curiosity where you can kind of see
54:54their face light up when they hear the
54:56person the other person say something
54:57like they're really intrigued the other
55:00one always one of them gets up to go to
55:03the bathroom yeah and to me the the tell
55:06is what does the other person do when
55:10that person this makes me look like I'm
55:13not watching you all on your dates I
55:15swear you learn so am I
55:17we both are and that's fine
55:20but
55:22when the other person goes to the
55:24bathroom if the ones that at the table
55:26is like you can tell their smile like
55:28they can't stop smiling
55:31um and maybe they're texting somebody
55:32and they're but their cheeks like almost
55:34you can tell her cheeks almost hurt from
55:36smiling they're it's like they're
55:38letting the they're so excited they
55:40don't want to act over the top with the
55:42person but when the person steps away
55:44they allow themselves to feel that joy
55:47that to me is the talent that's exciting
55:50you're like oh that's so nice Something
55:52Beautiful is happening and the little
55:53grooming signals as well like when you
55:55know they you know they might yeah that
55:58they smell well and things like right
56:00I guess the I guess the last piece is
56:02about
56:04being able to fake body language
56:08can people do that can we fake it I mean
56:11you can try is it effective I usually
56:14not it because you get those
56:17asynchranies right so it's too much
56:20think think about all of the non-verbal
56:22challenge channels you've got vocal cue
56:26they call it the paralinguistic cues
56:28like tone of voice range of voice how
56:31quickly or slowly you speak you've got
56:33your your fingers your hands your arms
56:36there's too much
56:38to do to fake it for you know uh
56:44and and to make it consistent with what
56:46you're saying probably you know the
56:48greatest actors can
56:51pretty well
56:52but I mean to me it's just it's it's so
56:56likely to fail that it's not even worth
56:58trying and I I don't think it's honest I
57:01super interesting for me because between
57:03the age of I'm gonna say 14 and
57:07let's go for 21. I was in my view I
57:11think I was kind of rejected by every
57:13um woman that I pursued
57:15and I think I was inherently low value
57:17and didn't realize it so when I read
57:18these books about pickup Artistry and
57:20all this stuff I read all this work I
57:22tried to do what the book said and it
57:24was unsuccessful like fundamentally
57:26unsuccessful my life changed when I
57:29actually changed like when my actual
57:31opinion of myself changed and I was
57:33saying this to my friend the other day
57:34who's who's going through a bit of a
57:35process where
57:37um they're struggling with that same
57:38thing I said you know what I wasn't able
57:40to lie to myself I tried waiting longer
57:42to text back I tried this I tried all of
57:45these things and my conclusion from that
57:47chapter of my life is there's a thousand
57:49little things that ways we communicate
57:51it's exactly what you just said I said
57:52to my friend the other day there's a
57:53thousand ways we can communicate and you
57:55might think you can control three or
57:56four of them but as humans that have
57:58evolved over those 200 000 years were so
58:01good at knowing what someone really
58:02thinks and feels
58:04and so I guess my question here is like
58:06I came to the conclusion and then this
58:07was when I was giving my friends some
58:09advice through the days you can't fake
58:10it you have to actually go and change
58:12yourself story like you can know the
58:15tips and tricks but that wasn't enough
58:16for me
58:17to actually get the you know
58:19and it was honestly the thing that
58:21changed in my life was when my opinion
58:22of myself changed right and it's and I
58:25it sounds so weird to say but I'm sure
58:27nobody's listening
58:29um the profunda the profundity of the
58:31change I just can't I can't describe it
58:34not not even in the relationship being
58:36able to attract people but just in every
58:38context like I don't know what changed I
58:41don't know what I did all I know is that
58:42something deep within me my story of who
58:44I am changed and that means that when I
58:46show up in places I stand differently
58:48yeah your non-verbal sort of experts
58:51talk about Inside Out change yeah right
58:54as opposed to outside in yeah
58:56um because people have clicked this
58:57video right now click this podcast
58:58because they went outside in chain I
59:01know they do I know and it's like I
59:03always feel like look I'm a body
59:04language person but that doesn't mean
59:05I'm going to give you a hat full of
59:07tricks
59:08it just doesn't because it's not going
59:09to work that wouldn't be right and it's
59:11funny too because the quote that I'm
59:14best known for is fake it till you
59:15become it and
59:17what I mean by that it is fake it till
59:22you make it to me has always meant
59:25pretend that you know things you don't
59:28know for pretend that you are a person
59:30that you're not until you get the job
59:33but what do you do then you keep faking
59:36it
59:36so fake it till you make it is fooling
59:39other people
59:40fake it till you become it is expand
59:43allow yourself to feel powerful enough
59:45to really understand who you are to know
59:49what your story is to be to be more
59:52focused on the impression you're making
59:54on yourself than on others
59:56um to grow to be less afraid of these
59:58challenges
1:00:00and eventually
1:00:02you know maybe you know standing in
1:00:04those big positions
1:00:06alone feels a little awkward at first
1:00:09and you're faking it but eventually you
1:00:11become that person and you know that's
1:00:14what happened with my student who I talk
1:00:16about in the Ted Talk who had not
1:00:19participated at all the whole semester
1:00:21and I I was gonna have to fail her and I
1:00:23said you have to participate
1:00:26and she finally raised her hand on the
1:00:28last class I said I'll call on you and
1:00:30first of all her comment was amazing and
1:00:32people's head spun like they hadn't
1:00:33noticed her but she continued to use
1:00:36these ideas and she came back to me
1:00:38later like six months or a year later
1:00:42and she said she said to me I want you
1:00:45to know I'm so happy now because she had
1:00:48come into my office and said I feel like
1:00:49an imposter I don't belong here I'm from
1:00:51this small town I was like so am I if I
1:00:54belong here you do
1:00:56she came back to me after graduating and
1:00:58finding and actually getting into
1:01:00education and not business and she said
1:01:04those things that we talked about I did
1:01:07and I realized I wasn't faking it till I
1:01:09made it I was faking it till I became it
1:01:11and now I'm the person that I wanted to
1:01:13be
1:01:16that makes so much sense
1:01:19so expand yourself
1:01:21so that you can get the evidence you
1:01:24need to become the thing that you
1:01:25exactly our parents and grandparents
1:01:27told us to sit up straight as a show of
1:01:29respect to others and kids hate that
1:01:32it's
1:01:34kids you know to teach kids to sit up
1:01:36straight as a show of respect to
1:01:38themselves
1:01:39and that allows you to be more open to
1:01:44to be less defensive to allow the truth
1:01:48of who you are in
1:01:51it's hard to confront ourselves
1:01:54it takes courage
1:01:56so by adopting those powerful postures
1:02:00by feeling personally powerful you are
1:02:04generating the courage to confront
1:02:05yourself to know yourself to introduce
1:02:08yourself to yourself
1:02:10ladies and gentlemen today is a very big
1:02:13day for me because the Diary of a CEO
1:02:16book is finally out it's been published
1:02:18today the 33 laws of business and life
1:02:21I've spent many years writing this book
1:02:23but I've spent even longer about a
1:02:25decade and a half compiling the
1:02:27information that exists in this book if
1:02:30you are somebody that has any intent at
1:02:32some point in your life of building
1:02:34something whether it's building a great
1:02:36team at work whether it's a football
1:02:38team a netball team a business an
1:02:40organization a charity anything at all
1:02:42that you want to build that's going to
1:02:44require you to understand people
1:02:45understand how to tell great stories and
1:02:48maybe most importantly of all understand
1:02:49yourself then I believe this book is a
1:02:53must read and you know what I've written
1:02:55a book before
1:02:56this is my second book but this is the
1:02:59one this is the book that will give you
1:03:00the most value there's a link right now
1:03:02in the description below and for 30
1:03:04people that order the book
1:03:06and post it on their social media and
1:03:08tag me you'll be getting a very special
1:03:10Gold version of the book
1:03:13please read it then please message me on
1:03:15every social media platform and let me
1:03:17know what you think
1:03:18thank you a quick word on huel as you
1:03:21know they're a sponsor of this podcast
1:03:22and I'm an investor in the company one
1:03:24of the things I've never really
1:03:25explained is how I came to have a
1:03:27relationship with huel one day in the
1:03:28office many years ago a guy walked past
1:03:30called Michael and he was wearing a
1:03:32heeled t-shirt and I was really
1:03:34compelled by the logo I just thought
1:03:35from a design aesthetic point of view it
1:03:37was really interesting and I asked him
1:03:39what that word meant and why he was
1:03:40wearing that T-shirt and he said it's
1:03:42this brand called heal and they make
1:03:44food that is nutritionally complete and
1:03:46very very convenient and has the planet
1:03:48in mind and he the next day dropped off
1:03:51a little bottle of fuel on my desk and
1:03:53from that day onwards I completely got
1:03:55it because I'm someone that cares
1:03:57tremendously about having a
1:03:58nutritionally complete diet but
1:04:00sometimes because of the way my life is
1:04:02that falls by the wayside so if there
1:04:04was a really convenient reliable
1:04:06trustworthy way for me to be
1:04:08nutritionally complete in an affordable
1:04:10way I was all ears especially if it's a
1:04:12way that is conscious of the planet give
1:04:14it a chance give it a shot let me know
1:04:16what you think
1:04:17as I've read through your story I came
1:04:19across this moment where there was some
1:04:22academic bullying in your life and this
1:04:24appeared to me to be the a real pivotal
1:04:30um hurtful chapter of your life it's now
1:04:33the basis for
1:04:35some of the work that you're doing and
1:04:36some of the things you're writing about
1:04:40what what do I need to know about what
1:04:42happened there to understand the lessons
1:04:45that you've taken from that
1:04:46um chapter
1:04:49I I would rather endure any physical
1:04:53pain than go through that and I have
1:04:55interviewed I mean it went on for years
1:04:58I became
1:05:00just fair game it was because the
1:05:05bullies had been so successfully
1:05:08diminished demeaned stigmatized me
1:05:12that anyone else who felt the need to
1:05:14act out could act out against me it was
1:05:17okay so
1:05:20the mountain of you know social media
1:05:25um uh evidence of of this bullying is
1:05:29overwhelming and I can't even look
1:05:30through it I have to have someone else
1:05:33sort through that I am not talking about
1:05:35Anonymous trolls this was other
1:05:38academics
1:05:39this was about me it was personal they
1:05:42they they're they were not
1:05:45hiding behind anonymity every person
1:05:48I've interviewed for this book has been
1:05:50been bullied every adult has said
1:05:53it's the worst thing that ever happened
1:05:55to me
1:05:56and
1:05:57I felt like I was dying or I wanted to
1:06:00die
1:06:01for a long time because it is social
1:06:04death it is social death and without
1:06:06community
1:06:08we we are we are in a bad place I mean
1:06:11we we do need each other
1:06:13the facts of my life were stolen from me
1:06:16my story was Rewritten so much so that I
1:06:21could not do an interview without having
1:06:24to correct
1:06:25all kinds of disinformation about me
1:06:28right so the whole you know telling the
1:06:31way you tell your story to yourself
1:06:33matters peace wow that was hard I had to
1:06:36keep doing that to survive it because
1:06:39other people were telling a story that
1:06:42was a lie and that was deeply hurting me
1:06:45I mean emotionally professionally
1:06:50um hurting my family I mean it was
1:06:52terrible I was
1:06:55I I almost died I almost decided to die
1:07:00and
1:07:02um
1:07:04and that's very common for people who
1:07:07are bullied
1:07:08and
1:07:13I'm not through it it's those I mean I'm
1:07:16I'm through the worst of it but it still
1:07:18it still comes up and and and there are
1:07:21there are there's disinformation in news
1:07:24articles that that these bullies sort of
1:07:27got out there
1:07:28that will always circulate I can never I
1:07:31can't get rid of all of that right it
1:07:33will pop up every once in a while and
1:07:36people go but yeah but I heard you did
1:07:37this and you're like no
1:07:40that's incorrect
1:07:42um and so every time that pops up
1:07:45it's it's just like a dagger again it it
1:07:49is an absolute theft of your life it is
1:07:52it is
1:07:55absolutely
1:07:58it is absolutely devastating
1:08:00and in the workplace it's remarkably
1:08:04common
1:08:05and
1:08:07the estimates by people who study
1:08:10workplace bullying are that
1:08:13oh more than 90 of people who become
1:08:16targets of workplace bullying
1:08:19dis disappear from that job and when I
1:08:22say disappear I mean they're either
1:08:24fired because the bully flips it around
1:08:27and they're seen as the difficult person
1:08:30or their move to a different department
1:08:32or they quit because they can't endure
1:08:34it
1:08:35or they die of a stress related illness
1:08:37or they take their own lives
1:08:40um
1:08:41suicide rates are very high for for
1:08:43adults for children and adult bullying
1:08:45targets
1:08:47if I was in your household around that
1:08:49time what would I have seen and I asked
1:08:51that question because
1:08:52people never get to see that right they
1:08:54get to see either silence or they might
1:08:57get to see a statement but
1:09:08um
1:09:13you know what I'm thinking right now is
1:09:15that my boys are going to hear this and
1:09:17they're gonna be laughing and they're
1:09:19gonna be they're gonna be saying that
1:09:21I'm exaggerating you know like but who
1:09:24cares why if they say that but I it's
1:09:27still like I'm so afraid of them still
1:09:31um
1:09:35I was you know Raising a Son who is just
1:09:40a lovely remarkable person I'm like
1:09:47I can't believe that he
1:09:50grew up to be such a wonderful person
1:09:53because for so much of his teenage life
1:09:55I was going through this and it was
1:09:59so hard to be present but I had to be
1:10:04like I need
1:10:07there was this constant conflict that I
1:10:09had how much do I tell him about
1:10:13um
1:10:15how much do I Shield him from it can I
1:10:18Shield him from it because
1:10:21you know my God my husband who
1:10:27was just like wanted so desperately to
1:10:31fix it for me and he he's a scientist
1:10:34and he understood very well the
1:10:37statistical arguments as better than
1:10:39than most people in my field do and he
1:10:41would engage with these bullies and that
1:10:43would escalate he was he was for sure
1:10:46traumatized by it
1:10:48um
1:10:50I was just curled up in a ball and then
1:10:54amazingly I was still able to go out and
1:10:57speak and for that hour
1:10:59I was safe
1:11:02and and then I would I would hide again
1:11:05and
1:11:08I was just so afraid
1:11:10uh
1:11:11I just felt like I was dying I would
1:11:13just I think almost every day I said I
1:11:15feel like I'm dying
1:11:17uh it was it was I
1:11:22it just the darkest of dark
1:11:25um
1:11:28they
1:11:29like I'm grieving
1:11:31still the loss
1:11:34of
1:11:35again the facts of my life
1:11:38and a future that I thought I was going
1:11:40to have even though
1:11:42I and this is that whole Silver Lining
1:11:45thing I'm actually happier now
1:11:48in the life that I'm in
1:11:51I had to leave my job I wasn't forced
1:11:54out at all and in fact I want to be
1:11:56clear because this isn't the bullies
1:11:58love to say that I was denied tenure I
1:12:00was not denied tenure I chose to leave
1:12:02my Dean was incredibly supportive of me
1:12:05I could not live in that toxic house
1:12:08anymore it was filled with fumes it was
1:12:11I I I would have died if I had stayed so
1:12:15in Academia period you left your job yes
1:12:19my my full-time you know tenure track
1:12:22position and that's after I had been
1:12:25promoted twice like I had worked so hard
1:12:28to get there
1:12:30I had an excellent record of research
1:12:34um
1:12:36I wanted to stay there I I wanted to
1:12:40continue to do work around sexism and
1:12:42racism I
1:12:43I thought maybe I would eventually get
1:12:45into the administration I wanted to like
1:12:49that was the life that I thought I
1:12:52hadn't and
1:12:55they made it impossible for me to stay
1:12:59yes it was my choice and no it wasn't my
1:13:01choice
1:13:03um they sold my future
1:13:06now I have a different one maybe that's
1:13:08maybe that's better but it doesn't take
1:13:10away the pain of that loss it's sort of
1:13:13like
1:13:14it's like
1:13:16losing a spouse a spouse dying Young
1:13:22and then you get remarried a few years
1:13:24later and you're happy in your new
1:13:26marriage and maybe you're even happier
1:13:28but you'll never stop grieving
1:13:30the loss of that first person right it's
1:13:33that's how this feels
1:13:36um
1:13:38and that's why it's taking me like four
1:13:41years to write this book
1:13:43because it's a lot it's a it's a lot to
1:13:46tell my own story I'm scared and it's a
1:13:49lot to
1:13:50hold other people's stories because I
1:13:53know how they feel I know how hard it is
1:13:55I mean
1:13:56I've interviewed people whose adult
1:13:59children have taken their own lives
1:14:01because they were so badly bullied in
1:14:04the workplace
1:14:07it was it was just torture
1:14:13my
1:14:14collaborators were tortured
1:14:19and
1:14:22lost so much
1:14:25fighting this
1:14:27disinformation and just this this
1:14:30meanness
1:14:32my son in the last six months has had
1:14:35two friends who were taking psychology
1:14:37courses
1:14:40learn this disinformation about me in
1:14:43their psychology courses because again
1:14:45it just sort of lives on and so now he's
1:14:48coming going
1:14:50I don't understand
1:14:52can I ask you everyone's question here
1:14:53because I
1:14:54did lots of research on you didn't
1:14:56really come across any of that
1:14:59it's amazing I didn't so I don't know
1:15:01the details of it um what I what I've
1:15:03have inferred from what you're saying is
1:15:05that people try to discredit you yes and
1:15:06your intentions yes is that accurate yes
1:15:09okay so they try to discredit you me my
1:15:12intentions my my actions
1:15:15um
1:15:16and to prevent me from
1:15:19doing more work doing more work right
1:15:21makes sense yes
1:15:26what do you think their motivations were
1:15:29I can tell you that
1:15:33a small percentage of people I believe
1:15:35are what I call primary bullies like
1:15:38they are the ones who get the ball
1:15:40rolling
1:15:41if they're alone and I you know we
1:15:44chatted about this earlier but if
1:15:46they're alone they're just yeah
1:15:49but when they recruit people then they
1:15:52become bullies
1:15:53and
1:15:55they tend to be repeat offenders
1:15:59what they want is status and recognition
1:16:03they feel that they have not gotten as
1:16:08much as they deserve
1:16:10and they resent people who they perceive
1:16:13as getting more than they deserved
1:16:16and so when they perceive that
1:16:20they'll start to go after that person in
1:16:23little ways and I call that the bully
1:16:25test the bullies testing to see if
1:16:28people will
1:16:29allow that to happen and if people don't
1:16:33push back and this is where bystanders
1:16:36could get involved right away and say
1:16:37that's not okay
1:16:39I so wish more people had done that in
1:16:42my case
1:16:44then they escalate very quickly and they
1:16:47are basically they are gaining status by
1:16:50taking away your status
1:16:52it's I don't think it's about
1:16:54power as much as it is about status
1:16:57there are people who are very powerful
1:16:59but still feel like they're not getting
1:17:02the recognition and status that they
1:17:03deserve and their bullies it is
1:17:06motivated I believe in general again I
1:17:10don't know what motivated my bullies by
1:17:12a need for status
1:17:14and
1:17:16one of the commonalities across bullies
1:17:19is that they tend to have a scarcity
1:17:22mindset
1:17:24they see the world as everything is zero
1:17:27sum everything's affixed buy and that
1:17:31means if if somebody else is getting
1:17:33status or success it's somehow taking
1:17:37away from their from them
1:17:39you know Einstein once said the most
1:17:40important question that you'll answer
1:17:43for yourself
1:17:44is sort of is the universe fundamentally
1:17:48hostile or friendly
1:17:50because the way you answer that will
1:17:53affect the way you do your work
1:17:55and how you interact with people and
1:17:58what what you aspire to
1:18:01these are people who would say the world
1:18:04is fundamentally hostile
1:18:06the bullies are yes
1:18:09and that's the commonality across
1:18:12bullies I think there are some myths
1:18:14about bullies like the idea that bullied
1:18:17people become bullies
1:18:18some do
1:18:20and most don't in fact a lot of the
1:18:24people who I call bravehearts who stand
1:18:26up against bullies were bullied
1:18:28so it's it's not that bullied people
1:18:31become bullies it's not that you know
1:18:35you know it's not that they're they have
1:18:37such low self-esteem and they can't
1:18:38sleep at night they actually they can
1:18:41sleep at night they're okay with what
1:18:43they're doing they think they're right
1:18:46um yeah
1:18:49but we there are way there's so many
1:18:51ways and I I this is maybe another
1:18:53conversation for next year
1:18:55there's so many opportunities for
1:18:58bystanders to get involved early so that
1:19:01it doesn't escalate to this full-blown
1:19:04bullying campaign because once you're
1:19:05there the person is is is is is is
1:19:08socially killed
1:19:10do you think this is an inevitable
1:19:12byproduct of being successful
1:19:14because you talk those primary bullies
1:19:17they see status as the the game so you
1:19:21become really successful in your
1:19:22industry you get a TED Talk which
1:19:23becomes one of the most watched ever you
1:19:25know your podcast becomes big those
1:19:27Primary people are going to say
1:19:29he or she is getting too much credit
1:19:31what can I do to tear them down give me
1:19:35a little bit of credit take back some of
1:19:36that zero some status
1:19:39um so you know so is it a inevitable
1:19:42what do they call it um occupational
1:19:43hazardous yeah so I don't think I think
1:19:47it's common
1:19:48for you for successful people to have
1:19:51haters
1:19:53that doesn't always turn into bullying
1:19:56also
1:19:58the people who tend to be targets
1:20:01tend to be people who have okay so if
1:20:05you if you think about the kind of the
1:20:07workplace or the profession and then
1:20:10the rest of the world
1:20:13they have lower status in their
1:20:15profession than they do with the rest of
1:20:17the world
1:20:18and so I was a junior researcher I
1:20:22wasn't you know supposed to get this
1:20:24much attention and
1:20:28I just gave a TED talk like that you
1:20:30know I
1:20:31I wasn't going out looking for status
1:20:33that's what happened it happened to go
1:20:36viral but the targets tend to be people
1:20:40who are below the average on status in
1:20:45with with the in-group and then cross
1:20:48what some researchers have called the
1:20:50line of resentment and then they become
1:20:53targets or they're viable targets they
1:20:55don't necessarily become targets but
1:20:57they're viable targets so people who
1:20:59have very high status in inside and get
1:21:02high status outside they're much less
1:21:04likely to be bullied
1:21:07interesting so to sort of clarify that
1:21:09in words that I just make sure I
1:21:10understand if I am
1:21:13in a school yeah and I am maybe in the
1:21:18lower
1:21:20quartile of popularity I'm not so
1:21:23popular but then something happens which
1:21:25means outside of school I become super
1:21:26famous yes you know I blow up in the
1:21:29news outside of school and everyone's
1:21:30talking about me and they love me the
1:21:32people in school yeah there's going to
1:21:34be a group of people in school that go
1:21:35we need to Reign this guy back in
1:21:36there's going to be a couple of people
1:21:38and you hear those stories and you've
1:21:40interviewed a lot of celebrities and you
1:21:43know when you talk to celebrities like
1:21:44people who who got famous as kids
1:21:48a lot of them were bullied and people
1:21:51are shocked they're like but you but
1:21:52everyone else loved you yeah yeah but
1:21:54that's exactly
1:21:55why they got bullied in their schools
1:21:58yeah because they weren't supposed to
1:22:00succeed I I've heard this story many
1:22:03times on this podcast Amy I
1:22:05you know like as in this someone doing
1:22:07well
1:22:08um a group of people thinking that
1:22:10they've punched too far above their way
1:22:11yep and then exactly trying to tear them
1:22:14back down with disinformation
1:22:15misinformation whatever it's so common
1:22:18um
1:22:19are you optimistic that it can change
1:22:21honestly really yes I think it's human
1:22:25well I would like to see it change but I
1:22:27part of me goes I think this is just
1:22:29humans yeah but but this is you know
1:22:31what we if so if we said that about
1:22:34racism and misogyny and ageism it's just
1:22:37human nature people would go that's not
1:22:39okay like a lot of people would object
1:22:41on that statement and say yes we can do
1:22:44better but no I absolutely believe that
1:22:47if people can understand the anatomy of
1:22:50bullying how it works and what it looks
1:22:53like in the beginning what are the early
1:22:55signs what are the little things they
1:22:57can do to be socially Brave
1:22:59and collectively turn things around
1:23:02I think that that that we will see
1:23:05change in in workplaces first the
1:23:09psychological
1:23:11research shows that we can turn this
1:23:14around
1:23:16I think you're right actually
1:23:18thank you no I do think you're right
1:23:19just because because when you make the
1:23:21similarity between things like racism
1:23:22and sexism it's it's really really about
1:23:24cultural acceptance isn't it whether we
1:23:26whether we someone performs that
1:23:28behavior whether we go that's that's
1:23:29fine whether we clap whether we go you
1:23:31know we're going to reject you if you do
1:23:32that again exactly
1:23:34um and we're all governed by incentives
1:23:36in this Society aren't we so it's just
1:23:38about an incentive disincentive yes
1:23:40interesting
1:23:42what's the most important thing that we
1:23:44haven't talked about that maybe we
1:23:45should have
1:23:46yeah I mean we've talked a lot about
1:23:48trust but I guess
1:23:50so so I guess I just want to summarize
1:23:52sort of all of that talk about trust
1:23:55it just that
1:23:56you know a lot of people in the business
1:24:00World make the mistake of thinking that
1:24:02they gotta go in and be the smartest
1:24:04person in the room
1:24:05so they've got to show confidence
1:24:08and they do that at the expense of
1:24:10demonstrating their trustworthiness
1:24:13and and if you do not establish earn
1:24:16trust build trust
1:24:18you you have no medium through which
1:24:21your ideas can travel so trust is the
1:24:23conduit of influence it's not a soft
1:24:26idea it's a true idea this is just the
1:24:29way people are if you come in and and
1:24:33you start talking at them and you
1:24:35haven't listened to them you don't know
1:24:37what they're about they don't feel like
1:24:38you care it doesn't matter if you have
1:24:41the best idea in the world you're
1:24:42throwing it against a brick wall you
1:24:44know you have got to earn an established
1:24:47trust
1:24:48in order to influence people
1:24:51and how do you establish trust not
1:24:53thinking that you have to take the floor
1:24:54first so a lot of people feel that
1:24:56especially in business settings they
1:24:59like a negotiation they feel like
1:25:01they've got to drop the anchor they have
1:25:03to talk first
1:25:04when in reality
1:25:06it's
1:25:08often much more effective to ask
1:25:12questions and learn about the other
1:25:14person you're showing first that I
1:25:16you're interested that you understand
1:25:18them and you're actually gaining
1:25:20information right so so that you when
1:25:23you respond you're not giving up power
1:25:26at all you're building trust and
1:25:28learning and and then you when you when
1:25:32you respond
1:25:33they trust that your response is based
1:25:37on
1:25:38you actually knowing them right so they
1:25:40feel seen they they've been seen so
1:25:43that's I think you know there are so
1:25:45many things but I I that that's one that
1:25:48I think is is really effective
1:25:50we have a closing tradition on this
1:25:51podcast where the Alaska leaves a
1:25:52question for the next guest not knowing
1:25:53who they're going to leave the question
1:25:54for
1:25:55and the question left for you is
1:25:58if we discovered a cure for sadness
1:26:03such that we would never need ex need
1:26:06experience it again
1:26:09would you support
1:26:11the development of that cure
1:26:18I'm on the
1:26:22oh geez I I feel like I'm gonna get
1:26:25myself in trouble but
1:26:26you know I referred to Susan Kane
1:26:28earlier her book quiet her new book is
1:26:31called Bittersweet and it is about
1:26:35allowing ourselves to feel sadness to
1:26:38grieve that it is in many ways healing I
1:26:41mean why do we listen to sad songs it we
1:26:44get some pleasure from it we heal from
1:26:46it so I I'm gonna have to say I I'm
1:26:49going for the Bittersweet and not the No
1:26:52No sadness
1:26:53imagine a world without sadness I don't
1:26:55think that would be a nice world I think
1:26:56sadness is like hot and cold and sad and
1:27:00happy I don't think you have one without
1:27:01the other unfortunately I don't think so
1:27:03either and it's in a signal right it's a
1:27:04human signal that our bodies send us to
1:27:06tell us it's information yeah process
1:27:09loss and things like that yes I
1:27:12completely agree with you and to feel
1:27:13empathy and compassion and want to help
1:27:15others so
1:27:17thank you so much thank you thank you so
1:27:19much it was delightful really really
1:27:21delightful I like so much and um in the
1:27:23process of reading your work and
1:27:25watching your videos I learned an
1:27:27incredible amount and um
1:27:29you've really helped me I've had so many
1:27:31little personal epiphanies as we've been
1:27:32speaking
1:27:33so many of them and I'm actually really
1:27:35really excited about your upcoming book
1:27:37about bullying and bystanders because
1:27:38there's not really a big conversation
1:27:39happening but if there was ever a time
1:27:42for this conversation in the world we
1:27:44live in in these like
1:27:45pants or culture mobs and the Twitter
1:27:48sphere and all of this stuff it's a big
1:27:50conversation in the UK at this exact
1:27:52moment for a variety of reasons there's
1:27:54been a big couple of big moments in the
1:27:56UK
1:27:57um it's it's it's it's now is the time
1:27:59to have a really like professional
1:28:00nuanced conversation about it yes and to
1:28:03see if there is a way yes to have a
1:28:05language so we can actually talk about
1:28:07it yeah I would love to speak to you
1:28:09again when that become when that book
1:28:11comes out wonderful to do but thank you
1:28:14so much for all of your time today it's
1:28:15been really really fascinating really
1:28:17opening conversation and you know what I
1:28:19I think you're a wonderful human being I
1:28:21think you're a warm competent which is
1:28:25what I aspire to be one day thank you I
1:28:28think you're wonderful too thank you so
1:28:30much Amy means a lot to me thank you
1:28:32thank you
1:28:32[Music]
1:28:39oh
1:28:41[Music]
1:28:49foreign
1:28:49[Music]
1:28:55you got to the end of this podcast
1:28:57whenever someone gets to the end of this
1:28:58podcast I feel like I owe them a greater
1:29:00debt of gratitude because that means you
1:29:01listen to the whole thing and hopefully
1:29:03that suggests that you enjoyed it if you
1:29:05are at the end and you enjoyed this
1:29:07podcast could you do me a little bit of
1:29:09a favor and hit that subscribe button
1:29:11that's one of the clearest indicators we
1:29:13have that this episode was a good
1:29:14episode and we look at that on all of
1:29:15the episodes to see which episodes
1:29:17generated the most subscribers
1:29:19thank you so much and I'll see you again
1:29:21next time

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