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The Bible and Slavery — Transcript

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0:00And one of the things that sort of
0:03really threw me for a loop is that Roots
0:07written by Alex Haley was a piece of
0:12fiction that he plagiarized from a white
0:15man.
0:21Well, today we have Dr. Harold C.
0:24Felder, which a few years ago I
0:26discovered the C stands for Chris, which
0:30was kind of weird to me because I always
0:31knew you as Herald. And uh so what do
0:35you like to go by?
0:37>> HC.
0:38>> Not Pope.
0:41>> No, not
0:43>> your majesty. None of that.
0:45>> I've been called many of things, but
0:47never your majesty.
0:51>> Well, uh Dr. Felder. Uh I'm glad to have
0:54you today on uh at Underground Theology
0:57talking about this subject of the Bible
0:59and slavery. And uh of course this is an
1:02important topic. There's a lot of people
1:04on YouTube that have attacked the Bible
1:07um on this issue. And there's a lot of
1:11Christians who have uh deconverted
1:14and gone into agnosticism, atheism, or
1:17maybe some some other, you know, more
1:20liberal forms of Christianity. And this
1:23is one of the issues that that they
1:24bring up. Uh the Bible condones slavery.
1:29In fact, uh there's this one particular
1:31person uh on YouTube name is Christy
1:33Burke, and she doesn't just say that the
1:36Bible condones slavery. She says that
1:39God commands you to own slaves. And so
1:43really, there's a lot of misinformation
1:45out there, misunderstanding. Uh but
1:48let's admit this is a a challenging
1:50topic because
1:53bi the Bible clearly regulates slavery
1:56and clearly permits slavery in certain
2:00circumstances. And so you have uh you're
2:03the author of a of a book called let me
2:06get it
2:08the Africanamean
2:11guide to the Bible. Let me get the glare
2:13off there. Going the wrong direction
2:15there.
2:17So that's that's your uh this is a
2:20second edition but your your book this
2:21is the only book you have published so
2:23far right?
2:24>> Yes.
2:25>> Okay. So what is the the name of the
2:28book that you're working on now that or
2:30at least your working title that
2:32directly addresses slavery.
2:36>> Black Christian apologetics.
2:37>> Black Christian apologetics. Oh, cool.
2:39Okay. And you're you're qualified to
2:42speak on black Christian apologetics.
2:44Why?
2:46Well, because I'm apologist and I'm
2:48black.
2:50>> Well, this was what you're supposed to
2:52say because I went to Southern
2:53Evangelical Seminary and I have a PhD in
2:57apologetics.
2:58>> Let me tell you how I got involved in
2:59this topic.
3:00>> Okay.
3:01>> But I was working I was trying to come
3:02up with a dissertation
3:05and
3:07I was trying I was I was originally
3:09going to do like black um black cults,
3:12black religions and stuff like that. And
3:14I was actually speaking with some
3:16people, some Hebrew Israelites, and they
3:19just kept stringing me along. I would
3:21have conversations with them. I I
3:23couldn't make heads or tails out what
3:24they were saying. And then eventually
3:26they just ghosted me. And this is like
3:31three months in. And so now like the
3:33clock is ticking on my dissertation. I
3:34have to I have to come up with a, you
3:36know, with something for my
3:37dissertation. So you know, I decided I
3:40want to have to just come up with
3:41something new. And I went to um here in
3:44Charlotte they have a place called
3:46Freedom Park and I went there on Junth
3:50and there was a lot of you know music,
3:53good food and
3:57having a good time. It was hot but I I
3:59remember was having a good time. But I
4:01saw this picture and this picture sort
4:04of led me down the road that we're at
4:06now. And it was you know they say
4:07pictures worth a thousand words. So it
4:10was a picture of a black baby. There was
4:13a hand I mean painted picture. Wish I
4:16could finally do that. Of a black baby
4:19and he was being fed by a large spoon.
4:22And in the spoon well and and the uh the
4:27spoon was being like I said were being
4:28held by a white hand. You didn't see the
4:30person just a white hand. And in the
4:32spoon were a cross chains in the Bible.
4:37So
4:39that is when I decided to write the
4:41African-American guide to the Bible
4:42because that implies that Christianity
4:45is racist, that Christianity is all
4:47about slavery and I knew better. So
4:51that's why I had to write my book and
4:53because I wrote that people have just
4:56been asking me to speak at places and it
5:00sort of become my niche.
5:02>> So that's how that's how I'm here. Okay,
5:05cool. And And so, uh, how far along in
5:08this book are you?
5:11>> Um,
5:13well, I wouldn't count on seeing it this
5:15year.
5:17>> I knew I'd put you on the spot. So,
5:19>> here's the thing. I would get rolling. I
5:22mean, I'll get rolling. I'll be just,
5:24you know, first of all, it's a research
5:26book, so it's it's very tedious. It's
5:28very it's very challenging. I have to
5:30read a lot of books. I have to do a lot
5:32of quoting and a lot of footnotes and
5:35you know one day I may turn out 10 pages
5:38and then then something will happen and
5:40I stop and then when I stop I may stop
5:43for two or three months then once I stop
5:45I'm good.
5:46>> Yeah.
5:46>> But when I stop I'm stopped for a while.
5:49>> Life happens.
5:50>> Oh, you are. Well, maybe this will jump
5:52start you back into to writing and uh
5:55>> Yeah. Yeah. you know, so I'm I'm looking
5:57forward to that book and um you know
6:00that we we've known each other since
6:02what 2003
6:042004 something like that. Uh
6:07>> u but so I know that you've you've been
6:10uh into apologetics for a long time. We
6:11went to the Southern Evangelical
6:13Seminary together and and so you you
6:15actually achieved something and got a
6:17got a doctorate. I did not. And and so I
6:20I have to uh bow to to your perseverance
6:24there. and uh acknowledge you has and
6:26and you know what this this lump in my
6:29throat say Dr. felder
6:32and had to spit it out, you know.
6:36No, no. I'm I'm proud of you, man. You
6:37did
6:38>> tell a funny story. I I imagine we're
6:41just we're just going off the cuff here,
6:42right?
6:42>> Oh, yeah.
6:43>> Because I did work hard for my
6:44doctorate. And I remember um once I got
6:48my doctorate, so my daughter called me
6:50to uh congratulate me. She said, "Dad,
6:52congratulations on your doctorate." I
6:55said, "Oh, that's Dr. Dad to you."
7:00Absolutely. You earned it. You earned
7:02it. Well, so in the u
7:07in the process of writing this book, you
7:10you put some arguments together and
7:12defended the scriptures um uh in
7:15relation to uh the issue of slavery. And
7:18so I want to bring up some of those
7:19problems. Uh the um I want to watch a
7:23video right quick and just kind of get
7:25your thoughts on what this this lady is
7:27saying. This is uh Christy Burke. She is
7:30actually um
7:32deconverted and and she does a lot of
7:36videos critiquing scripture, critiquing
7:39the Bible and and she'll say, you know,
7:41I'm not trying to undermine anybody who
7:44who believes in the Bible, that's all
7:46fine. But for those who are also
7:48deconstructing, but really I mean
7:51honestly,
7:53she sounds like the devil in the garden,
7:55you know, just just whispering and and
7:58trying to to turn people away. So, let
8:00me let me uh start this here and let's
8:04let's check this out and see what she
8:06has to say. in Leviticus 25:44-46.
8:12As for your male and female slaves whom
8:14you may have,
8:16as for your slaves whom you're allowed
8:18to have, you may buy male and female
8:21slaves from among the nations that are
8:23around you. So you can go to other
8:25cities and you can buy slaves too. You
8:27may also buy from among the strangers
8:29who sour with you and their clans that
8:32are with you, who have been born in your
8:34land, and that they may be your
8:36property. You may bequeath them to your
8:38sons, after you inherit as a possession
8:41forever. You may make slaves of them,
8:43but over your brothers, the people of
8:45Israel, you shall not rule one over
8:48another ruthlessly.
8:50So, this is giving you different
8:52standards for different kinds of slaves,
8:55a hierarchy of people because, you know,
8:57some people are chosen by God and some
8:59people aren't chosen by God. Um, and it
9:02says in verse 44, "As for your male and
9:04female slaves whom you may have, you may
9:07have slaves. Go ahead, own people as
9:09property. I want you to do it. I want
9:11you to go around to the the foreign
9:13cities. I want you to buy slaves up. Own
9:16them. That's fine. You can even give
9:18them to your kids. You can, you know,
9:20your kids can inherit your slaves."
9:22Again, God is very much endorsing and
9:25encouraging the owning of people as
9:27property.
9:30All right. So, that ought to get us
9:32going.
9:34What do you What do you think of what
9:35she's saying there? Any problems with
9:36what she's saying?
9:38>> Oh,
9:39problems are legion.
9:44I yeah I I of course I hear this
9:46argument and I think um what people
9:50don't realize is that they are somehow
9:53under the impression that God you know
9:56out of all the nations in the world God
9:59created Israel and told them you can
10:01have slaves. All right. So the fact is
10:05is that we live in a time where we know
10:09slavery is wrong. Right?
10:12This is unique in the history of
10:14mankind.
10:16Slavery has always existed.
10:19Always existed since mankind. Since
10:22since since the since the beginning of
10:25foundations, slavery has always existed.
10:27>> And it still exists.
10:29>> Yes. In in pockets. That is how society
10:33always did it. That's that's how society
10:35always um um transacted with other
10:39societies. Slavery is just weak nations
10:42being taken over by strong nations and
10:44it's happened all over the world by all
10:47kinds of people. Slavery happened in
10:49Africa long before the white man came.
10:52Slavery happened in America long before
10:56the white man came. Native Americans
10:57were taking Native Americans as slaves
10:59long before the white man came. Um
11:02slaves, blacks Africans took Europeans
11:05as slaves. um uh Muslims took Christians
11:09as slaves. Slavery is something that's
11:12been one of the constants in the history
11:15of mankind. So she made it sound like
11:19God is out of all the nations. He's he's
11:22coming up with this whole idea about
11:25slavery. Now when God
11:29I'm gonna give you a little insight
11:30here, too. Do you remember the curse of
11:34Ham?
11:35>> Yeah.
11:36Okay. So, the curse of Ham
11:40uh and and it's been used to support
11:43slavery. So, the curse of Ham is
11:45basically for those of you who don't
11:46know the story.
11:48When Noah got drunk, his three sons or
11:52well actually Ham was the son who saw
11:56him naked. He told his two brothers, Jeb
12:00and Shem,
12:03and they went into the tent, but they
12:06did not look at their father's necklace.
12:07Instead, they covered their father.
12:10And when Noah got up, he he cursed Hank.
12:14He cursed Hank because he found out what
12:17Ham had done. And he said that your
12:19descendants are going to be slaves to
12:21your brothers. Now a lot of people have
12:23used that to justify to justify slavery
12:27in America. All right. It is my it's my
12:30position that that actually was prophecy
12:34of what happened when the Israelites
12:37took over the land of Canaan. Now before
12:40God was going into the land of Canaan
12:42and he said he said long before when he
12:46was talking to Abraham that their sin
12:47had not risen up to the level yet. So
12:50once their sin had risen up to a certain
12:52level, that is why God gave them that
12:55land. As a matter of fact, God told
12:56them, God said, "I'm not giving you this
12:58land because you are so great. I'm
13:01giving you this land because they are so
13:03vile."
13:04>> And so God wanted them to to erect them
13:08out of the land. And there's a passage
13:10in Deuteronomy, I didn't know these
13:12questions, so I didn't I didn't prepare
13:13the scriptures. There's actually a
13:14passage in Deuteronomy where God says
13:16when you come to a city
13:20offering peace.
13:22If if they will become your slaves, then
13:25they will become your slaves. If not,
13:27then kill everyone. This was God enacted
13:30judgment upon that nation.
13:34But if we tend to think that this has
13:37something to do with the Israelites
13:39being um uh somehow better than the
13:42other nations, let's not forget that the
13:44Israelites were in slavery in Egypt for
13:47400 years.
13:49>> Yeah.
13:49>> Let's not forget that the Israelites
13:51went into slavery in the Babylonians.
13:54Let's not forget that the Israelites
13:56went into slavery at the Assyrians. God
13:59used slavery to punish those that he
14:01wanted to punish. Now all the nations
14:04around Israel, all the nations practiced
14:06slavery. God put up guard rails that
14:09actually protected the human dignity of
14:12the people. And I remember we had a
14:14conversation about this one time and and
14:17um and and we can actually see slavery
14:21as being
14:22humane because what are the options?
14:25What are the options when you take over
14:26a nation? What are the options? There's
14:28no get mo. There's no get mo. So either
14:32you're going to take them as slaves and
14:33and maintain that culture or you're
14:37going to kill them and commit commit Jew
14:40genocide.
14:41So actually slavery was the lesser of
14:44the evils available.
14:47>> And when we're looking at Leviticus,
14:49we're looking at these passages. They
14:52are written to a specific people at a
14:55specific period of time. This is not
14:58God's ordainment for people all times.
15:03He's dealing with those people in that
15:05time who knew slavery, who understood
15:08slavery, who dealt with slavery, who
15:10were going to be slaves or take slaves.
15:12And that's those are the people he was
15:13dealing with at that narrow window of
15:16time.
15:17>> So I I take it you you uh don't think
15:19that God wants you to own slaves,
15:23that God commands you to own slaves. No
15:26God God allows certain things because in
15:32sin we bring some some things into
15:35existence and God allows it. It is not
15:37God's will that people die. But death
15:40exists because of us.
15:42>> Slavery exists because of us. He uses
15:44those things. It's not his perfect will,
15:46but he uses those things.
15:48>> Right? That's a good point. Slavery
15:50exists because of us, not because God
15:52wants it to exist. Yeah,
15:54>> God didn't go to the first people and
15:56say, you know, I want you to go and take
15:58people slaves. No, people decided to do
16:00that.
16:01>> Weak nations have been taken by strong
16:03nations in every country everywhere in
16:06in Asia. You cannot find a nation or
16:09continent or a place where slavery has
16:11not existed. You cannot.
16:14>> And to make it sound like and and to
16:16make it even more interesting, the only
16:18reason why slavery isn't rapid today is
16:20because of Christianity. M
16:22>> that is the only reason.
16:24>> Yeah, I I agree. And and
16:26>> and the only reason she thinks slavery
16:28is wrong is because of the Christian
16:30Judeo influence.
16:31>> That's right. That's right. She wouldn't
16:33even be thinking it was wrong without
16:35the Bible.
16:36>> You know, there's so many uh holes in
16:38this argument that that just is amazing
16:41to me that it's still getting passed
16:43around. uh you know that I can think of
16:46just a few responses just even from the
16:49Old Testament context that as you
16:51pointed out the you know the cure is
16:53worse than the disease sometimes and and
16:56so we look at uh the Moses permitting
17:01a divorce in the in the law you know and
17:03they asked Jesus about that why does
17:05Moses do that of course it's God doing
17:07that we know but Jesus says because the
17:09hardness of your hearts there there's a
17:12reason why God doesn't say it's wrong to
17:16own people. There's a reason why he
17:19doesn't prohibit slavery outright
17:22because doing so would cause more
17:24problems, more harm, more destruction
17:27than simply allowing it. A and so uh you
17:31know she makes claims elsewhere that you
17:33know the Bible and the New Testament
17:35never says that it's wrong to own
17:36somebody. Uh but it does in first
17:39Timothy talk about the the law being for
17:41kidnappers and that word is for those
17:45who kidnap someone and sell them into
17:47slavery. So stealing
17:50>> Yeah.
17:50>> Yeah. Yeah. And so there's plenty of
17:53condemnation for that kind of slavery.
17:56Uh there's no condemnation for war
17:58slavery that I remember of.
18:00>> Yeah. And and here's an interesting
18:01thing as well and um when we're talking
18:04about the New Testament, it's important
18:05to realize that uh under the Roman
18:09Empire, one in two people were slaves.
18:11>> Yeah.
18:12>> Out of every two people were slaves.
18:17>> I I and I got to go look at this. Um and
18:20in let's see in first Timothy yeah
18:23chapter 6 verse1 says let as many
18:26bondervants as are as are under the yoke
18:28count their own masters worthy of all
18:30honor so that the name of God and his
18:33doctrine may not be blasphemed. And she
18:36makes a big deal out of that in this in
18:38this video. you know that that uh you
18:41treat somebody like Jesus just because
18:43they're they're the master and stuff and
18:46and the she's missing the point. The
18:50gospel is so important.
18:52It it's it's more important than
18:55eradicating slavery.
18:57That anything that would actually harm
19:00the gospel and Paul getting on a social
19:03crusade to eliminate slavery would
19:07prevent him from being able to freely
19:09preach the gospel, prevent him from from
19:12Christianity from spreading around the
19:13world. So So he says, "Hey, for the sake
19:17of God that's not bl that he's not
19:18blasphemed and the and the doctrine of
19:20God's not blasphemed." In other words,
19:22so the whole point of Timothy is that
19:24the gospel not be hindered. That's why
19:27you're praying for leaders and stuff.
19:29And he says, "Hey, here's a way that you
19:31might hinder the gospel to go around the
19:33world is if you're not uh submitted to
19:36your masters." And and so by not being
19:40submitted, and especially if Paul's
19:41teaching them not to be submitted, the
19:44the whole social fabric is threatened.
19:47And so the gospel becomes a complete
19:49threat to the Roman system, which it is
19:52in and of itself, but let's not make it,
19:56you know, a threat in such a way that it
19:59actually hinders the gospel. It's
20:02nations know that the gospel is a
20:04threat. I mean, you know, North Korea
20:07knows that the gospel is a threat.
20:08That's why they try to to to stomp it
20:10out. But if you're adding on to that a
20:13social crusade to rid the world of
20:15slavery, uh, in that context, it's going
20:18to be it's it's going to hinder the
20:20gospel.
20:22>> Like saying before also is that slavery
20:24was not considered a problem. Slavery
20:27was just something that existed.
20:29>> It was a part of society. It wasn't
20:31considered to be something that had to
20:32be eradicated. That wasn't until
20:35Christians came along and decided it
20:36need to be eradicated.
20:38>> Yeah.
20:38>> Which kicked off the abolitionist
20:40movement. So people are trying to look
20:42at at the uh past and saying why didn't
20:45they rise up? Why didn't they address
20:48this? It wasn't seen as a problem.
20:50>> Yeah. Yeah.
20:52>> We see as a problem with 2020 hindsight.
20:55>> Yes. That's right. And you know, it's
20:57it's it's to me it's interesting that
21:00that
21:02only people really uh that have had that
21:05influence from Christianity uh can can
21:08stand on this quote moral high ground
21:11and condemn Christians for for you know
21:14in the Bible for this understanding of
21:16of slavery and this permission of
21:18slavery. But like you said, they don't
21:21they don't have any ground to stand on
21:23because if they didn't have the
21:25Christian worldview
21:27bringing us to the conclusion that
21:28slavery is wrong, they would be right
21:30back there saying, "Oh yeah, own them.
21:33In fact, I want one." You know,
21:35>> you know, you know what I find really
21:37interesting, especially in the black
21:39community where there's this notion that
21:42Islam is somehow friendlier to blacks
21:45than Christianity. What a lot of people
21:47don't realize is that Islam was in
21:51Africa uh during the slave trade before
21:56the Europeans arrived. As a matter of
21:58fact, oh, we had a lot of people that
21:59crossed the Atlantic and died, but just
22:02as many, if not more, died crossing the
22:06Sahara Desert to the Middle East. And it
22:09was by some accounts there were one out
22:12of two of those slaves died along the
22:14way. So Islam is no friendlier to blacks
22:18and to Africans than Christianity.
22:21And and not only that, when when when
22:24the abolitionist movement started,
22:27the British government decided that they
22:30were going to stamp out slavery because
22:33because of the abolitionist movement.
22:35And where did the abolitionist movement
22:37uh begin? It began with this simple
22:39idea. Man is made in the image of God.
22:43you see that nowhere else.
22:44>> That was the sp that that that started
22:47the abolitionist movement. And when the
22:49British when the British started um uh
22:53taking a hold of that, they start they
22:55tried to wipe out slavery everywhere. I
22:57mean, they used everything they could.
22:58They used their military might there and
23:01they had the world's best navy. They
23:03would they would destroy ships. They
23:04would board ships that were involved in
23:06slavery. They would patrol off the coast
23:08of Africa. They would try to get uh
23:11African um um uh tribe leaders to to to
23:15to disavow it. Some would, some would,
23:18some wouldn't. But but and and actually
23:22actually I sort of lost my train of
23:24thought.
23:26I was definitely going I was definitely
23:28going somewhere. But yeah, they they
23:31actually risked their lives in order to
23:33do that because they had this
23:35understanding now that a man is made in
23:37the image of God and that slavery
23:39therefore was wrong and that was
23:43responsible for getting rid of slavery
23:46pretty much well everywhere that we know
23:48in the in the free world now. So
23:50Christianity, not only is the slave not
23:53only is it not a slave religion, it is
23:55responsible for the fact that we don't
23:57have slavery rampid today.
23:59>> Right. Right. Yeah. And and you know, I
24:02know that some people will say, "Well,
24:03that's contradictory to the Bible.
24:05That's that's not consistent with what
24:07the scripture teaches." I think it's
24:08very consistent because uh you you have
24:11to understand that slavery was an
24:13allowance to sinful man. If you don't
24:16have that basic presupposition,
24:20then yeah, you can make this claim that
24:22it's contradictory. But once you
24:24understand that it's an allowance to
24:25sinful man, that it's not the ideal.
24:28Just like divorce is an allowance to
24:30sinful man. God's ideal was one man, one
24:32woman for a lifetime. God's ideal was
24:36there's no slavery in the garden. There
24:39that comes after the fall. So, you know
24:42that you had to have that presupposition
24:45that this is an allowance. Not as as
24:49Christie was trying to paint it out as
24:50something God wants you to go do. He
24:52commands you to go do it. You know,
24:54>> you're not a good Christian if you don't
24:56have slaves.
24:57>> Yeah.
24:59Yeah. You know, every every good Jewish
25:02person should have a slave. You know,
25:03it's like what? Uh, no.
25:06>> And well, and also we were talking about
25:08that there are pockets where slavery is
25:10is today and one of those pockets, very
25:13few pockets is is in Africa and it's
25:15Muslims.
25:16>> Yes.
25:16>> Muslims taking Christians as slaves. And
25:18I know they do this today. I actually
25:20paid to free a slave. So I know this
25:22happens.
25:24>> But you don't see Christians today
25:25practicing slavery.
25:27>> Wow. Yeah.
25:28>> And the reason the world isn't
25:29practicing slavery is because of
25:31Christians. Whether you acknowledge that
25:32or not.
25:33>> Right.
25:34>> Whether When the when the when the
25:35Muslims were told by the British that
25:38this is where this is where I was going
25:39to go and I lost my train of thought.
25:41When the Muslims were told by the the
25:44Ottoman Empire were told by the British
25:46that you got to you got to stop dealing
25:47with slavery. And the the the caliphate
25:51made a decree, okay, we're going to stop
25:53doing slavery. There was a riot. There
25:57was a riot because they said that
26:00Muhammad
26:01Muhammad told them that they needed to
26:03keep slaves and that slaves were
26:04ordained by Muhammad. And it was crazy
26:08that he had to walk that thing back. And
26:11then he he kept running into clashes
26:14with the uh with the British government
26:16because the British government was was
26:17like the most powerful government in the
26:19world. If you want to do trade with
26:21them, you had to you know you had to
26:22like
26:23>> you know you had to do what you had to
26:25do. So it was only because of the
26:27pressure applied by the British
26:29government and then later on some of the
26:32other governments that joined the
26:33British government that slavery was
26:35actually eradicated in the Ottoman
26:37Empire. The Ottoman Empire was the last
26:40stronghold of slavery because they felt
26:42like it was owed to them that it was
26:44condoned by Muhammad.
26:48>> So So Dr. Felder, what is um uh what is
26:52it that you're studying right now that
26:53has your interest that that you're
26:55learning that maybe you didn't know
26:57before? Uh some things that have caught
27:00your attention that you're going to put
27:02in your book and talk about in your
27:03upcoming book that's going to be out in
27:052039.
27:08>> Yeah, I I think I touched on a little
27:10bit of it and that's the fact of how
27:11pervasive slavery really was in the
27:15entire world.
27:16>> You didn't catch that, did you?
27:18What's that?
27:19>> I said it's gonna be out in 2039, right?
27:22>> No, I did not catch that.
27:27>> Sorry, I just had to do that. Go ahead.
27:30>> Yeah. Is that how pervasive slavery was
27:32in the entire world? Um, I mean, I grew
27:36up when I heard slavery and most black
27:40people when they hear slavery, they
27:42think the Annabellum South. And slavery
27:46goes back so much further than that.
27:48Like I said, this has there's not a
27:50place in the world where slavery has not
27:52been. Whether it's Russia, whether it's
27:55China, whether it's the Middle East,
27:59everywhere slavery has existed. So
28:01slavery has been something that has
28:02always been part of of the human um
28:06experience.
28:08Um, one of the things that I I sort of
28:10found interesting and and and let me
28:13give you a little bit of background
28:14about um
28:18about where I got my idea of slavery
28:21from. And so I got my idea of slavery
28:23from Roots. All right. So I watched
28:26Roots and I remember and I was in high
28:30school when Roots were coming out and I
28:32remember coming home, you know, getting
28:34on the bus every day, coming home, you
28:35know, from work because I had work like
28:37like a bad bagger at a grocery store and
28:40I remember coming home so I can watch
28:41because you know we're doing no DVRs
28:43back then.
28:44>> Yeah. I had to watch it when it was on.
28:48>> And I remember I remember that that that
28:52first episode where where Ka Kinte was
28:56captured and they had the they had the
28:59white man there and and how they went
29:02out in the jungle and and and captured
29:04Ka Kinte and I was just so upset about
29:09that. And as a matter of fact, I was I
29:12mean I was growing I I grew up in DC
29:14which you know was like 90% black and it
29:18had an effect on a lot of people and and
29:20and for and for generations.
29:23>> Yeah. It had affected me for generations
29:26until uh I started doing my studying.
29:30And one of the things that sort of
29:33really threw me for a loop is that Roots
29:37written by Alex Haley was a piece of
29:42fiction that he plagiarized from a white
29:45man.
29:46>> Oh man. It is a piece of fiction that he
29:52plagiarized from a white man.
29:55>> And we noticed because he was sued
29:59and the guy who sued him won.
30:02>> Wow.
30:03>> And Alex Haley admitted to stealing some
30:07of this stuff. He had been to all of it
30:08now, but other people have come along
30:10and looked at his notes and said, "Yeah,
30:11the whole thing is pretty much stolen."
30:13But he said, "Well, I wanted to give
30:15people a myth. something like a myth to
30:18live by and he called it fraction is
30:21what he is what he called it.
30:23>> So it was it was all made up. And as I
30:28did my research
30:30the only people the only white people
30:32who went to Africa and took slaves were
30:36the Portuguese. And that was back in the
30:391400s. And the Portuguese stopped doing
30:42that pretty quickly because the
30:45Portuguese realized that it was just too
30:48dangerous.
30:50A lot of the men died from malaria and
30:52all kinds of diseases. So what they did
30:55was they bought them from Africans. So
30:59this is the way the slave trade went.
31:02Africans would take other tribes slaves.
31:09Then they would bring them to the coast
31:10and would sell them to the white man.
31:12When they came in on the ships, all they
31:14had to do was just buy them. White
31:17people didn't go there trapping through
31:19the jungle to take uh black slaves. No,
31:22it was the blacks who were taking their
31:24own people's slaves. And it was it was
31:29it was rampant before the white man
31:31came. Slavery was rampant before the
31:34white man came. But it sort of stepped
31:37up when the white man came because now
31:38there was a market.
31:40>> And remember I said I said uh I said
31:43earlier
31:45that the British tried to convince some
31:48of these these these uh these chiefs to
31:51not engage in slavery anymore. And I'm
31:55trying to remember his name. Like I said
31:56I didn't know I was gonna be talking
31:57about this but it'll be in my book. But
32:00uh there was a a chief of like he was
32:03like the the chief of like the biggest
32:05tribe in Africa. Um and he said no. He
32:10said no. He said we he said look the
32:12Muslims don't have a problem with
32:13slaves. Why do Christians all of a
32:14sudden got a problem with slaves? He
32:16said we're going to continue to do
32:17slaves. We're going to continue to take
32:18slaves. He said now he said now if if
32:22you don't want to deal with us in
32:24slavery, he said we're going to continue
32:25to capture them because it it was part
32:27of their culture. That's what they
32:28taught their children. When you grow up,
32:30you know, you show your manhood by
32:32killing the other tribes, by taking them
32:34slaves. That's how that's how, you know,
32:36that's how you exerted your power.
32:38That's how you became powerful. That's
32:40how you knew a tribe was was powerful by
32:42how many slaves it had and how many
32:44people that it killed. Matter of fact,
32:46there was there was this one tribe that
32:48they they one time took a neighboring
32:52tribe
32:54and killed about 5,000 in one day,
32:58sacrificing it to their their god.
33:01>> Oh man.
33:03>> Now, this this chief said that if you do
33:06not take these slaves, we're still going
33:09to take them. We're just going to kill
33:10them.
33:12Because it goes back to what we were
33:13talking about before, the lesser of two
33:15evils. So if one tribe is going to take
33:17over another tribe,
33:19historically before the slave trade,
33:22they would kill the men
33:25and take to women and children.
33:28>> With slavery, at least the men had an
33:31opportunity to live because they could
33:33be sold. Now,
33:36I'm just I'm going on a rant now. I'm
33:38just, you know, I'm just going my taste.
33:41I I used to I used to think about that
33:43and I used to think to myself I used to
33:45think to myself if I was on that slave
33:47ship I would jump off. I would want to
33:49be dead before that before I become a
33:50slave. Right? But then I think about
33:52God's plan, right?
33:55What if my ancestors had done that? I
33:58would not be here today.
34:01>> My ancestors would not have, you know,
34:04even been exposed to the the gospel
34:06message. I wouldn't have been exposed to
34:08the gospel message because I wouldn't
34:10even now. Yeah. Some Christians who use
34:14Christianity as a weapon,
34:18but it did expose him to Christianity.
34:20>> Yeah.
34:22>> How and and another thing that I found
34:25so interesting about um roots is that we
34:31hear about you know how count was from
34:33the Mandingo. He was a Mandingo warrior.
34:36Medingle tribe, right?
34:38What is so ironic about that is the
34:41Medinkas were notorious slavers.
34:45>> Notorious. They are the ones who will go
34:48into the center of Africa into the Congo
34:52into the center and march these slaves
34:55back out to the coast hundreds of miles.
34:59>> Wow.
35:00>> And there are accounts of people who've
35:02seen it that talked about how horribly
35:04they treated them. These people would be
35:06like wounded at open gashes and just if
35:09if you fell behind they would just kill
35:11you. So so it was ironic to me that the
35:14mandinka were now the medikos some of
35:16the mandinkas were were taken slaves
35:18because they were taken slaves by other
35:19medas
35:21but and a lot of and a lot of um African
35:25uh um kings would would raid their own
35:29village if they were running low on
35:30slaves. they would ra their own village
35:32and take their own their own people as
35:34slaves. Or if you were not on the king's
35:37good list, he would sell them.
35:39>> If um if if you know if if if he just
35:43had a bad day, he would sell you and
35:45your whole family.
35:46>> Wow.
35:47>> So there was a lot going on. I mean, we
35:50want to talk about the evil of the white
35:51man. Look, evil is evil is something we
35:54are all capable of.
35:56>> Yeah.
35:56>> Evil is not dependent on someone's skin
35:59color. Not at all.
36:01>> So, so that I found that was very
36:04interesting, especially the stuff about
36:07uh coutente
36:10and when the um when the when the slaves
36:14did arrive to America. Um man, okay,
36:19that was interesting, too, because a lot
36:21of people don't realize that, you know,
36:24uh we had the native the native
36:26Americans were here, right? They were
36:27taking each other as slaves. The Native
36:29Americans actually
36:31had African slaves at some point
36:35>> and you know everybody was was slaving
36:40everybody,
36:41>> right?
36:42>> There were Africans who had African
36:45slaves. As a matter of fact,
36:48>> as a matter of fact, the first
36:51instance of perpetual slavery, and what
36:54I mean by that is before this time,
36:57slavery was it was like more like an
36:59indentured servitude. You know, people
37:01would come over, they would serve for
37:02seven years, and then, you know, they
37:05going about their American business. At
37:06least in theory. A lot of times it
37:07didn't work out that way, but at least
37:08in theory.
37:10But
37:12this one particular slave master, black
37:14slave master, sued his slave into
37:17perpetual slavery and the courts agree.
37:19That's what opened up the door to
37:21slavery. Now, I I want to I want to say
37:23something here now because people
37:24sometimes they really really
37:26misunderstand me because I've been
37:28called a I've been called a slave
37:31denier. I've been called all kinds of
37:33I'm not telling this I'm not saying this
37:36to give an excuse to white people for
37:39what they did. I'm not doing that at
37:40all. I'm just trying to demonstrate that
37:43slavery has always existed and that evil
37:46is not uh something that's a gene in
37:49white people.
37:50>> That we all have it and that ultimately
37:54we would still be enslaves or or
37:57enslaving other people if it were not
37:58for Christianity.
38:00>> That is the main point that I want to
38:02bring around is that Christianity is the
38:04reason why we don't have slavery today.
38:06I'm not trying to give anybody a pass.
38:08And and if you really think about it, if
38:11you really a matter of fact, a a a high
38:13percentage of blacks who were free had
38:17slaves. But if you think about it, you
38:19really think about it, it sort of makes
38:21sense because if you are a free black
38:24person, who's going to work for you?
38:29>> You couldn't call Indeed. You couldn't,
38:31you know, I mean, there were there were
38:32no internet where you could go and and
38:35or or an employment office or a white
38:37person definitely wasn't going to work
38:39for you.
38:40>> So, who was going to work for you?
38:42>> You you would have to buy a slave.
38:44That's the way going to work.
38:47>> But a lot of people don't don't realize
38:50this. Everybody just wants to point the
38:52finger and say that just wiping away the
38:54evil. No, I say evil. There's enough
38:55evil to go around for everybody,
38:57>> right? And you know, I know people come
39:00people come to me all the time. You you
39:02trying to give them a give them a pass.
39:04No, I ain't trying to get nobody.
39:06Slavery is evil. Slavery is wrong for
39:08everybody. But we all participated in
39:10it. The first Europeans that came to
39:12Africa came as slaves. You know why?
39:14Because I told you that the that the
39:19powerful enslaved the weak in Egypt. We
39:24we know why them been having enslaving
39:26the uh the uh Israelites, but they
39:29enslaved much of Europe too
39:31>> and brought them to to uh to Africa as
39:34slaves. And even even recently, do you
39:38know that up till 1962,
39:43they were in Africa, they were still
39:45selling Europeans on the slave block.
39:48>> Wow. Up until 1962,
39:51>> Africans were selling Europeans on the
39:53slave block. There's just it's a lot
39:56more complex than just white people are
39:59evil and that black people are victims.
40:02It's just not.
40:03>> There there was a a a a
40:06tribe owner in Africa.
40:08>> I can't remember detail because I didn't
40:10know I was going to talk about all this.
40:11who took his whole tribe, marched them
40:14to the coast and sold his whole tribe
40:17into slavery. His whole tribe.
40:23>> There's enough to go around for
40:24everybody.
40:25>> Yeah.
40:26>> Go around for everybody.
40:28>> And again, the Bible is clear that that
40:30kind of slavery is condemned.
40:33>> You know, I mean, yes, war slavery in
40:36Israel was permitted. the Roman slavery
40:39was a little bit I mean there was war
40:40slaves in Rome but there was there was a
40:42lot of uh you know there was a lot that
40:45was indentured type slavery or people
40:48debt slavery if you will there's a lot
40:49of that in Rome uh but a lot of slavery
40:52in Rome was more workforce type slavery
40:54>> it was you know
40:56>> like I said before there was no like
40:58employment agency when Rome took over a
41:00country I mean what were they going to
41:02do with the people they were going to
41:03they were going to make them slaves they
41:05were going to make them work for them
41:07that's
41:08That's what's has happened throughout
41:10history,
41:10>> right?
41:11>> They didn't have this notion that we
41:13have, you know, of free enterprise and
41:16the capitalist system of selling that
41:18didn't exist.
41:20>> Right. Right. And and and so, you know,
41:23I mean, I I'm not I understand, you
41:25know, make your critiques against the
41:26Bible, make your critiques against all
41:28that. Um, but be prepared to to, you
41:33know, have to face the fact that that
41:36there's a pretty strong push back,
41:38especially when people paint the Bible
41:41in a in a light that it it shouldn't be
41:43painted in that that all slavery is, you
41:47know, like slavery in the South,
41:48American South, and and we just get that
41:51in our brain. We think that that's the
41:53the way all slavery was. We think that
41:55that's the kind of slavery that's being
41:57uh permitted and allowed in the Old
42:00Testament. And it never was. There was
42:02the kidnapping aspect was never allowed.
42:05Uh kidnapping was always against the
42:07law. Uh you know, and and you know, I I
42:11just
42:12it it it was so culturally
42:16I don't say accepted, but just such a
42:19norm in society.
42:22When when you read the story of non uh
42:26the leper,
42:29the the little Jewish slave girl who had
42:32been enslaved by the Assyrians
42:36says to her mistress, "Hey,
42:40uh there's a prophet down in Israel that
42:42can heal my master."
42:44She doesn't sit there wishing that he
42:46would just get worse and worse and
42:48worse. you know, you've got me enslaved.
42:50You're so evil and all this stuff. And
42:53she's not in this bitter resentment.
42:55She's like, "Helps him out. Hey, you
42:57don't go to Israel, you can get healed."
42:59You know?
42:59>> Yeah. Abraham before Isaac was born,
43:02before um um um I forgot the son. I
43:07don't wait. But but um well, you know,
43:10his first son, but he was going to give
43:12his entire inheritance to his slave.
43:15>> Yeah.
43:18Ishmael.
43:19>> Yeah.
43:20>> Yeah. So, yeah. So, a lot of times the
43:23slaves were would get the inheritance. A
43:25lot of times the slaves were trusted and
43:28considered to be, you know, very very
43:31important people in the family. Um, a
43:34lot of times there's even a passage that
43:36talks about if you want to remain a
43:37slave for life, then you can do that.
43:39You know, getting this thing in your ear
43:40and all that type of stuff. So, and and
43:42and and when especially when it came to
43:44other Jews, I mean, if slavery wasn't
43:46around, a lot of them would have
43:48perished because that was the only way a
43:50lot of them got to eat
43:52>> because of someone may sell his daughter
43:55into slavery because he couldn't afford
43:57to feed her and they would be able to
43:59feed her. And then there were and then
44:00there were laws that guarded the dignity
44:02of the slave. What you didn't see there
44:04was slavery going on all around uh
44:06Israel. You got the law of Arabi. You
44:09got if you read the law of Harabi and
44:12the laws on how they treat their slaves
44:14and then you look at the Old Testament,
44:16you see that there's a different author
44:19because the Old Testament maintained the
44:21dignity of the person. You know, it you
44:24couldn't kill them. I mean, if if if you
44:27hurt them, you know, that was a problem.
44:31>> Well, if if you knock their tooth out,
44:33then they could be set free because
44:35their you you've damaged them
44:36permanently.
44:38>> Yeah. Yeah, the eye for an eye and the
44:40tooth for a tooth. That's what it's
44:41talking about.
44:42>> So, you know, you had to treat them with
44:44respect. You had to treat them like they
44:46were not just property. You had to treat
44:48them like they were like they were
44:49people. But those laws agreed
44:54those laws existed. Nowhere else,
44:56>> right?
44:57>> Nowhere else in that entire area was any
44:59other culture ex um um examining those
45:03type of laws and rules of holding the
45:06dignity of the person. Right.
45:08>> And to me, that is an example of
45:13proving that God exists because people
45:18wouldn't make that up because all the
45:20people around them didn't make that up.
45:21They would have had it to where they
45:22could do anything they want to a slave,
45:24especially a slave from another place.
45:26>> But these people, they were told they
45:28had to treat them in a certain way with
45:30dignity and respect.
45:33>> That's not something they would have
45:34come up with.
45:35>> Right. I agree. I agree. and and so that
45:37there's something unique about Israel
45:39and and Israel's laws even though it was
45:42written in a very uh culturally relevant
45:45way and and in a way that God affirm the
45:49natural law in man. Uh and so some of
45:52the laws are very uh uh close to what
45:57you would find in the law of Hammurabi
45:59or uh you know some of these other laws.
46:01Yes, there is a lot of repetition, a lot
46:03of a lot of similarity, but it's those
46:07differences that matter,
46:08>> right?
46:09>> And so God is is saying, "Yes, your law
46:11is good, but here's the better way.
46:14Here's here's the way it should be." Um
46:18and and of course and he he even limits
46:19that because as we said he he he's he's
46:23he you know God has a plan and a purpose
46:27and God's plan and purpose isn't to
46:30eradicate slavery and evils in this
46:33world. It's to eradicate it.
46:35>> God,
46:37>> huh?
46:38>> God has a bigger plan,
46:39>> right? He has a bigger plan. He's going
46:41to eradicate that in the next world. And
46:43he allows certain evils to fester and
46:46continue so that we understand that evil
46:49is wrong. I I mean why did God allow uh
46:53slavery to continue? So that someday
46:56when the gospel comes and we really
46:58begin to understand we're really
47:00transformed we begin to go, "Oh, the
47:03scriptures are indicating to us that
47:05that we shouldn't be treating people
47:07that way. That we should not consider
47:09them property. They're made in the image
47:11of God. in fact that we should walk in
47:13love towards them and love them as we
47:16love ourselves. And so, you know, we're
47:20evil is allowed so that we can come to
47:24understand it as evil. And that's that's
47:28the the idea that that a lot of people
47:30have that the Bible should eradicate it,
47:32should should condemn it. And you know,
47:34some things ought to just be obvious
47:36enough to us that it's wrong.
47:38>> The lady listening to do you know what a
47:40worldview is? Is she an atheist?
47:42>> Uh, she's kind of an agnostic
47:45probably.
47:47She's definitely no longer affirming
47:49Christianity. She may believe there's
47:51some kind of God or I I don't know. But
47:53but because I haven't kept up with her,
47:55she was kind of progressing along a a
47:57path somewhere. But
47:59>> but reason I ask is because under Islam
48:03there, you can't condemn slavery.
48:05There's nothing wrong with slavery under
48:06Islam. under under uh atheism, there's
48:09nothing wrong with with with um with
48:13>> with slavery. There's absolutely nothing
48:14wrong with it. You can't
48:16>> people only have the value that you give
48:18them,
48:19>> right? And yeah, for the atheists, they
48:22would claim that it's wrong. You know,
48:25I've argued with atheists that claim
48:27that that that that oh, it's it's it's
48:30wrong to to destroy a sentient being.
48:33Why? Where are you getting that value
48:36from? You know, uh,
48:39>> go ahead.
48:40>> There were places in because I say Asia
48:42had slavery as well. There were places
48:44in Asia that condemned slavery until the
48:47next ruler came along.
48:49>> Yeah.
48:50>> Because it was based upon the ruler
48:51because there was no real inherent value
48:54in people. It was just a value given to
48:56them by whoever was the ruler at the
48:58time.
48:59>> It wasn't that they were made in the
49:00image of God. It was just that this
49:02particular ruler says okay, this
49:04particular ruler says no, but they had
49:06no inherent in value worth.
49:08>> Yeah. So if somebody is particularly
49:10sensitive to people and and might have a
49:13generally kind heart towards somebody
49:15says, "Hey, that's I don't like that,
49:17you know, and I'm in control, so we're
49:19going to stop that." But like you said,
49:20next guy comes along. Uh, and it's
49:23happening now as we move into a
49:26post-Christian America, post-Christian
49:29world in other places. Some of this kind
49:31of stuff's coming back. The sex
49:33trafficking stuff, you know, uh, they
49:36may not be slaves on the on the same
49:37level that they were back then.
49:39>> Uh, there's still people in bondage and
49:43being used and abused by other people
49:45and they have no way out. They they they
49:47can't escape and at least in some senses
49:50they think they have no way out. And and
49:52so again, none of this justifies
49:54slavery.
49:56>> It's it's an evil that that will the
50:00world it's an evil that God will rid the
50:03world of.
50:04>> Uh you know, except uh that there is the
50:10biblical concept, and I'm interested to
50:12see what you say about this, that we are
50:15slaves of God.
50:17>> Yeah. service. A
50:18>> and so another reason why I think that
50:20God didn't
50:22um just eradicate slavery or tell us to
50:26eradicate it is because he wants us to
50:29understand that on some level we're all
50:32slaves. Jesus said if you if you sin,
50:36you're a slave of sin and and you're
50:39either a slave to your sin and then
50:43therefore the devil or you're a slave to
50:46God. And and so on some level, everyone
50:50has a master that we serve. That that is
50:54part and partial. And I think that's why
50:56God didn't just say it's wrong in and of
51:01itself because in some sense he might be
51:04condemning himself because we are his
51:07servants. And you can make a false leap
51:10there. Oh, God's evil because, you know,
51:12he calls us his bond his bondervants and
51:15stuff, you know, but he gave us life. He
51:19he he created us. We should serve him
51:23and we should see him as master. We
51:26should have that that, you know, every
51:28knee shall bow to him thing. And well,
51:32it's either it's either that option or
51:34you serve yourself, the devil, and your
51:36sin. And that's destruction. At least
51:39God is benevolent, good and loving, and
51:43kind and wants you to move from slave to
51:46friend, you know, and that's the gospel.
51:50>> You made you made a very good point
51:51there, and I didn't mention this before,
51:53but I was an atheist, right? So, and I
51:58can tell you when I became an atheist. I
52:00became an atheist. Did you ever tell you
52:03this story before? You ever hear this
52:04story before?
52:04>> Oh, yeah. But it's a good one. Go ahead.
52:08So I became an atheist March of 1982.
52:14Now before that I wasn't a Christian but
52:16I would say I was a pist. I believe that
52:17God exists but I wouldn't call myself a
52:19Christian because I didn't know what
52:20that meant. But when I was in the
52:22Philippines I it was my first day being
52:24stationed at the Philippines and I
52:26walked outside the gate and I saw all
52:28the beautiful women and I saw all the
52:30bars and I knew that believing in a God
52:33was going to conflict with the way I
52:35wanted to live my life. So, I actually
52:38said to myself right then and there,
52:40>> I no longer believe in God
52:42>> because I wanted to do what I wanted to
52:44do when I wanted to do
52:47>> whoever I wanted to do it with. And I
52:48didn't want nobody telling me I was
52:50wrong.
52:51>> And I imagine in heaven, God was like,
52:52"Thy will be done." Now, I didn't want
52:56to believe in God. I didn't want to
52:58serve God because I wanted to be free to
53:00do the things that I wanted to do. The
53:03point that you made is that what I did
53:05not realize until much le later later is
53:07that I was not free at all.
53:10>> I was a slave to those things.
53:13>> Yeah.
53:13>> Every day I they consumed me. I turned
53:18into an alcoholic. I was a whoreonger.
53:23My whole life revolved around those
53:25things. I was not free at all.
53:28>> I was the furthest thing from free.
53:30Thought I was free. Never free. Wasn't
53:32free until God delivered me from those.
53:34Then I became free.
53:36>> Amen.
53:36>> Now I'm
53:38>> Yeah. The truth will set set you free.
53:40That's that's the that's the thing is
53:41that you know this this whole
53:45this whole discussion
53:48I if you don't bring in the
53:51presupposition of sin and understanding
53:54our rebellion against God and and that
53:57God uh does condemn all he has judged
54:01he's going to judge and has judged uh
54:04every slave trader every kidnapper
54:08everyone that has participated
54:10in an unloving
54:12uh possession of other people, he's
54:15going to judge them. Now, in their
54:17culture, if if that was it was uh you
54:21know, like in Rome, often it was debt
54:23slavery and all that kind of stuff and
54:24they were a benevolent master, they're
54:25not going to be judged for that because
54:27that's you know that that in that
54:29culture debt slavery was not wrong. A
54:32and so
54:34but but we're going to have to answer
54:36whether we take people as slaves or we
54:39cut them off on the highway. You know,
54:42whatever selfish act that we commit, God
54:46is going to bring it under judgment.
54:48>> Yeah. And and so yes, he permitted and
54:51allowed people to uh you know, he
54:54regulated slavery, but he also regulates
54:58divorce and other evils because wiping
55:01them out would be worse than just
55:04regulating them. In a world when he's
55:06not yet ready to bring in the new
55:09creation, new heavens, you know, new
55:10heaven, new earth, when he brings in
55:13that, he will eradicate all those evils.
55:16And those who want to cling to those
55:19evils will be removed too. So there will
55:22be no room for those people who enjoy
55:25that kind of thing, who who live for
55:27that kind of thing, who, you know, I'm
55:30um
55:32DA Carson uh at least this is what I'm
55:35told that I didn't actually read Carson
55:37myself, but somebody was telling me
55:38about his interpretation or in some
55:41insight that he had on the rich man and
55:44Lazarus.
55:46And you notice when the rich in the
55:48story of rich man and Lazarus, the
55:50Lazarus is outside the gate, you know,
55:52he's beggar and and he's, you know, not
55:56being taken care of by the rich man at
55:58all. The dogs come and lick his sores
56:01and then he dies and then the rich man
56:04dies and they both end up in Abraham's
56:07well in Hades and rich man I mean uh
56:11Lazarus is in Abraham's bosom and the
56:13rich man's over there in torment and the
56:16rich man says father Abraham
56:20send Lazarus to me to to bring some
56:23water to cool my tongue.
56:26His
56:28understanding of who Lazarus is has not
56:31changed. He still thinks of him as
56:34beneath him and a servant. You serve me
56:38and you come bring that water to me. And
56:42and Abraham says, "Oh, I can't do that.
56:44There's a big gulf between us. You know,
56:45even if we wanted to, we you know,
56:47you're you're you got your good things
56:49in life. Now you've got, you know,
56:51torment. He got the bad things. He's got
56:53the good things now." And so the rich
56:55man says, "Well, send him to my my
56:57brothers and warn them." And Abraham
57:01says, "Well, uh, if they they have the
57:03law and the prophets, let them believe
57:04that." And and Lazarus, I mean, the rich
57:06man's like, "No, no, no, no. They they
57:07need somebody to come back from the dead
57:09and warn them about this place."
57:12Abraham's like, "You know, even if I
57:15send Lazarus and he comes back from the
57:18dead and he warns them, they won't
57:20believe. If they don't believe the law
57:22and the prophets, they won't believe.
57:23Even if somebody rises from the dead,
57:25but he that the the rich man still has
57:27that same mentality.
57:29Even in torment under the judgment of
57:32his own sin, he cannot escape his
57:35mentality of seeing Lazarus as his
57:38servant.
57:39>> Now,
57:40>> that's a good observation.
57:42>> Yeah. Yeah. Supposedly come from DA
57:44Carson. Somebody taught it one time in
57:46one of our Bible studies and and I was
57:48like, "Wow." And he said, "Oh, don't
57:49don't get excited about me. That's
57:50Carson."
57:52So,
57:53so anyways, uh uh the the point that I'm
57:56making is is that God is going to bring
57:59all that under judgment. He is going to
58:02to deal with people in their context and
58:05according to their circumstances and and
58:07according to their own conscience and
58:09the laws that they had and and he's
58:12going to judge fairly and righteously
58:15and and justly.
58:18And everybody ought to be scared of
58:19that.
58:21We ought to be in absolute fear that God
58:24is going to judge us one day. Whether
58:27you're a slave trader or you're a
58:29anti-slave activist,
58:32you're going to be judged because even
58:35those who are, you know, oh, that's evil
58:38and and we need to stand up and, you
58:41know, you got the whole climate change,
58:43you know, group now out there showing
58:45how righteous they are by by trying to
58:48save the planet and all that.
58:51They're going to fall under God's
58:53judgment and they're going to be judged
58:55on the basis of whether or not they love
58:56God and loved others as themselves.
58:59Whether they went the whole full route
59:01of slavery or just the the mild route
59:06of, you know, being selfish and eating
59:08all the food it left on the table or or
59:11cutting people off in traffic or, you
59:13know, divorcing their spouse because
59:15they got fat or, you know, whatever, you
59:18know, whatever. selfish things that
59:20they're doing, God is going to bring it
59:22under judgment. And we all know that
59:24because we all have a conscience. And
59:26our conscience is just a preview of the
59:30judgment to come. And and so for those
59:33who would would, you know, condemn the
59:36Bible because it, you know, there that
59:39God allowed Israel to own slaves and
59:42stuff, they had to understand they're
59:44going to be under judgment, too. and and
59:47you know, I'm sorry to say, they're not
59:49going to measure up. And without Christ,
59:53without the the gift of righteousness
59:55that comes through Christ, they're not
59:57going to stand in the judgment. And and
59:58and so I want to encourage our
1:00:00listeners, you know, if you're if you're
1:00:02not a believer, if you're not a
1:00:04Christian and you're condemning, you
1:00:07know, the Bible and condemning God and
1:00:09condemning Christians because of this
1:00:10slavery issue, okay, that's fine. Go
1:00:13right ahead and do that. But guess what?
1:00:16What can you be condemned for? Where
1:00:19does where is your righteousness? Don't
1:00:21don't you know, don't come here telling
1:00:24us that that you don't sin. We know
1:00:26better because we're human beings, too.
1:00:28And we know what kind of sins that that
1:00:30go through the human heart. And people
1:00:32just I don't think they realize how
1:00:34utterly sinful they really are. And so
1:00:36they they latch on to these kind of
1:00:39things where they can make themselves
1:00:40feel better that oh those that terrible
1:00:43Bible it you know permits slavery. I
1:00:46can't believe in the Bible because it
1:00:47did that. Well all of that's going to
1:00:50become become quite clear in the end the
1:00:52day of judgment. All that's going to be
1:00:54stripped away and they're going to have
1:00:56to face the reality of who they are. Not
1:00:59who the Bible is or what the Bible is or
1:01:01not any of that. They're going to have
1:01:02to face who they are. And without
1:01:06Christ, man, I wouldn't want to be
1:01:07there. I would not want to be on, you
1:01:10know, facing God on the day of judgment
1:01:12and be exposed all of a sudden for who I
1:01:14really am. So, you know, I'm like, God,
1:01:17show me now. Show me now so I can
1:01:20repent.
1:01:22>> There are people who say when I go
1:01:26before God and he's trying to judge me,
1:01:29I'm gonna give him a piece of my mind.
1:01:31No, you won't.
1:01:34I believe that when we stand before God,
1:01:36God's going to show us through his eyes.
1:01:40>> And when he does that, we're going to
1:01:41drop to our knees.
1:01:43>> We're going to drop to our knees. And
1:01:44we're going to be completely in complete
1:01:46agreement with him because we are going
1:01:49to know at that moment how how wretched
1:01:51we truly are.
1:01:53>> Yeah. And and there's going to be
1:01:54something in those folks who do not have
1:01:56Christ that's going to uh uh I mean,
1:01:59think about it. people actually want to
1:02:02be judged. I mean, they they they self
1:02:05flagagillate. They do all that that
1:02:07self- condemnation, you know, they they
1:02:10somehow people know that they're that
1:02:13they're sinners. And so, they're going
1:02:15to agree with God's judgment on them.
1:02:17Even if they don't change their mind
1:02:18about sin and and they still think of
1:02:21people as their servants or whatever,
1:02:23there's some sense in which they don't
1:02:25change at all. The let the let the
1:02:27wicked be wicked still, you know. uh
1:02:30Revelation says, and so their their
1:02:32wickedness is not going to disappear,
1:02:34but there is going to be an
1:02:36acknowledgment of it, and they're going
1:02:38to understand that they deserve what
1:02:40they're getting. And and so, you know,
1:02:43that breaks my heart that that people
1:02:46are just
1:02:48>> they would rather go to hell
1:02:52than face their own sin now and
1:02:54acknowledge their sin now. They'd rather
1:02:56face it on that day, fooling fooling
1:02:59themselves, deceiving themselves,
1:03:00thinking that they're going to, you
1:03:01know, tell God how it is. You know, Job
1:03:04kind of thought that, too. Job's like,
1:03:07you know, if I could just talk to him
1:03:08without fear, I'd let him know, you
1:03:10know, hey, what what are you doing? And
1:03:12at the end, he's like, oh, I'm I'm
1:03:13repenting dust and ashes. I shouldn't
1:03:15have said all that
1:03:18cuz I I seen God. Oh, no.
1:03:21Hide me dirt. You know, something. Well,
1:03:25it's been a great conversation. I've
1:03:27enjoyed it. Um, you know, we're just
1:03:30kind of flying off the cuff here. I've
1:03:32been looking looking forward to the to
1:03:34the book. Uh, I still haven't had a
1:03:36chance to read I've kind of read some of
1:03:37it, but I haven't finished this. Uh, I'm
1:03:39looking forward to the opportunity to
1:03:41finish um, let me get this over here.
1:03:43The African-American guide to the Bible.
1:03:45And you do address the slavery issue
1:03:47here in some. And, uh, and so people
1:03:50want to know more about this topic, they
1:03:51can get your book. And then also look
1:03:53forward to the one that's going to be
1:03:54coming out in 2039. And uh
1:04:00I might have to
1:04:01>> I'm not going to let it take that long.
1:04:03>> I'm I'm going have to interview you
1:04:04about every six months just to just to
1:04:06get the book made. You know,
1:04:07>> that might keep me on track.
1:04:10>> But um anyways, I appreciate you coming
1:04:12on. Uh you know, uh hopefully 25 people
1:04:15might watch this and uh still a small
1:04:18channel, so we'll see what happens.
1:04:20Well, let me pray for our audience. So,
1:04:22Father, we come to you and just uh pray
1:04:24that you would be with the folks that
1:04:25have watched this, Lord, to help them to
1:04:28understand that Lord, we don't condone
1:04:31slavery because when we read the Bible,
1:04:34we we see what the Bible teaches uh
1:04:37about people being made in the image of
1:04:40God. We understand the gospel is for
1:04:42everyone and that it actually is a
1:04:44gospel of freedom from bondage. And and
1:04:47so Lord, um to to affirm and condone
1:04:51slavery,
1:04:52especially the kind of slavery that went
1:04:55on in America
1:04:57is to be contrary to the gospel. And but
1:05:01we also know, Lord, that that in the
1:05:03world we live in, it's not going to be
1:05:04perfect. And you have allowed evil to to
1:05:07uh in some ways flourish because you
1:05:09want us to understand the difference, to
1:05:11make a distinction between good and
1:05:13evil. And we're allowed to see the
1:05:15horrors of evil. so that we can make
1:05:17that distinction. And uh and Lord, I I
1:05:20pray that that those who who see the
1:05:23horrors of of evil and and fail to make
1:05:27that distinction, Lord, that they call
1:05:30um evil good and good evil. And Lord,
1:05:33they they try to change the the the the
1:05:37things that they know in their hearts,
1:05:39Lord,
1:05:41as as right and wrong, and that they try
1:05:43to switch that up. Lord, I pray for
1:05:44them. I pray that God that you would
1:05:46help them to see uh clearly that you
1:05:49have put in our hearts a knowledge of
1:05:52right and wrong on some level and that
1:05:54that knowledge is clarified in the word
1:05:56and in the gospel and in the two
1:05:58commandments which fulfill the law that
1:06:01is to love you and to love others as
1:06:02ourselves. And I pray that um anyone in
1:06:05our audience that that watches this
1:06:07would Lord come to understand that you
1:06:10have given them you've offered them the
1:06:13gift of salvation in Jesus Christ the
1:06:16gift of righteousness and that they can
1:06:18receive that when they repent and turn
1:06:20to you and forsake their sins by
1:06:22agreeing with you that it's wrong and
1:06:24asking you to deliver them from it.
1:06:26Lord, they don't have to straighten
1:06:27themselves out. They have to ask to be
1:06:29saved from their bondage because indeed
1:06:33Jesus said that that those who sin are
1:06:36slaves of sin, Lord. And so tonight, we
1:06:38hope that this message goes out and and
1:06:42impacts people to to for the gospel and
1:06:46and they in fact are released from the
1:06:49slavery of their own sin. We thank you
1:06:52in Jesus name. Amen.
1:06:54>> Amen.

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