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The Best Relationship Advice That Everyone Needs to Hear (From the World’s #1 Love Researchers) — Transcript

by Mel Robbins · 12,798 words · 2,062 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00Today, you and I are here with Dr. Julie
0:02and Dr. John Gottman. They are the
0:04world's leading experts on love and what
0:07[music] it takes to make a relationship
0:09work.
0:09>> We had couples talk about a conflict
0:11issue for 15 minutes. [music] We could
0:13predict with almost 90% accuracy whether
0:17they would divorce or stay together and
0:19if they stayed together, how [music]
0:21happily married or unhappily married
0:23they would be.
0:24>> Wow. They're teaching you [music] and me
0:26everything we need to know about the
0:28four things that'll blow up your
0:29relationships and what you can do to
0:32break these [music] patterns of
0:34conflict. So the first one is criticism.
0:38Criticism means [music]
0:39blaming a problem on a personality flaw
0:43of your partner. Secondly is contempt.
0:47And contempt [music] is the worst one we
0:50have. You're coming from a place of
0:52superiority. looking down your nose at
0:56your partner. The third horseman is
0:59defensiveness. And then there's
1:02>> How do you tell someone that [music]
1:04it's not that you're worried about them,
1:05it's that you're losing interest in
1:07them?
1:07>> No.
1:08>> I love you so so so much.
1:11>> That's nice to hear.
1:13>> But
1:13>> Oh, there's a butt. [laughter]
1:15>> I'm sorry I'm laughing, but I You two
1:17are adorable. And we have all been in a
1:20relationship like that. Within 3 minutes
1:23flat, [music] you can predict whether a
1:25couple is going to break up or still be
1:26together in 6 years. What are you
1:28looking for?
1:28>> If I was going to boil it down to one
1:30[music] thing.
1:32>> Hey, it's Mel. I am so excited about
1:34this episode. I know it's coming. It is
1:37extraordinary. You're going to love
1:38this. But one thing that my team just
1:40showed me that I don't love so much, 51%
1:43of you who watch here on YouTube, you're
1:45not subscribers. So, here's my request.
1:48Our goal as a team is to get that number
1:50to 40%. If the subscribe button is lit
1:52up, would you please just hit subscribe?
1:54It's free. It's the best way to say,
1:56"Hey, thanks everybody. Thanks for
1:57putting out free content here on YouTube
1:59for me. Thanks for all the worldrenowned
2:01experts that are helping me improve my
2:02life." I appreciate you doing that. And
2:05that way you also won't miss a thing.
2:06Thank you for doing that for us. We love
2:09you and you're going to love this
2:11episode. So, let's jump into it. Please
2:13help me welcome the extraordinary Dr.
2:16John and Dr. Julie Godman to the Mel
2:18Robbins podcast. No, we're so happy to
2:21be here, Mel. Thank you.
2:22>> Oh, honor is mine. Honor is mine. You
2:26know, I would love to have you start by
2:29just thinking about the thousands of
2:32couples that you have researched and
2:35this extraordinary body of work that
2:39spans 50 years. and speak to the person
2:43who is listening right now and share
2:46what might change about their
2:48relationships
2:50if they really take to heart all of this
2:52research and wisdom and they apply it as
2:55soon as they're done listening.
2:57>> Beautiful. You know, I think uh two
3:00things I would say that really change.
3:04One is that hopefully conflict, which is
3:08absolutely normal in every relationship,
3:11becomes more calm, more gentle, and more
3:14constructive, also [snorts] more
3:17compassionate. Because the real theme of
3:22conflict is to understand your partner
3:25better. It's not to tear your partner
3:27down. [snorts] It's to really get inside
3:30their world and understand where they're
3:33coming from. So hopefully that might
3:37take place after listening to your
3:41beautiful show. And I would say
3:44secondly,
3:45maybe they do more to express gratitude.
3:49Maybe they ask more questions of their
3:51partner to really understand where their
3:54partner is at here and now internally.
3:58They may have known them when they were
4:00first dating, knew that world, but
4:03people evolve and change. So, who are
4:06they now? Asking questions draws that
4:09out. Mhm. Yeah. I would I would say that
4:13um in all the 54 years of of studying
4:17couples and my friend Bob Levenson and I
4:21started this research way back then and
4:24neither of us had a clue about what
4:26makes relationships work. We went from
4:28one disaster to another. And if I was
4:31going to boil it down to one thing, I
4:33have this invention that I keep in my
4:36back pocket and it's a little notebook
4:40and I keep it there all the time. And if
4:44Julie utters the four terrifying words,
4:49we need to talk. I get out my notebook
4:52very slowly so I can delay my reaction.
4:56I get out my pen very slowly and I open
5:00the book up very slowly and and then I
5:04say, "Okay, baby, talk to me. What's on
5:08your mind? What's on your heart?" And I
5:10write down what she's saying. And the
5:14more defensive I feel, the more I take
5:17notes and slow her down. Because I think
5:20the one thing we've discovered is that
5:22the masters of relationships, the ones
5:25who are happy and stay together,
5:27really seem to have a model that when
5:31your partner's upset about anything, the
5:34world stops and you listen. And this is
5:37my way of listening, taking notes, and
5:41doing it very slowly so I can calm down
5:44and not react quickly by saying
5:47something I' I'll regret later
5:49[laughter] on.
5:51>> I want to just pause.
5:52>> Okay, that's okay.
5:54>> You know what's adorable about you two,
5:56and if you're listening, I'm just going
5:59to describe it. If you're watching this
6:01episode, you will have already seen it.
6:04Is that you both keep turning toward one
6:08another and smiling
6:12and you have this very
6:15warm,
6:17loving gaze at one another as the other
6:20is talking.
6:21>> How can you not love [laughter] this?
6:23This is beautiful.
6:25And you also are like holding hands and
6:27there's a there's a physical touch
6:29connection. Oh yeah.
6:30>> Which is extremely noticeable
6:33>> because you don't see it all that often
6:36in couples. And I wanted to just
6:39>> unpack
6:41the genius of your response, Dr.
6:44Gottman, to those four terrifying words,
6:47we need to talk.
6:49>> Right. Um, which I'm also realizing
6:53sometimes I don't give Chris the grace
6:55of preparing him for the fact that I'm
6:58about to blast at him like a volcano.
7:01[laughter]
7:01But what I loved because I do think
7:05there is something very intentional
7:08about what you just described
7:11that as you're imagining Dr. gotman and
7:14he leaned forward and he reached into
7:16his back pocket and he pulled out a a
7:19notebook that's like the size of a 3x5
7:22card, right?
7:23>> And or you opened it up slowly and then
7:26you said you started to write
7:29>> and that is your way of listening. But
7:32it's so important to also point out as
7:35you're as you're hearing this that you
7:38are also managing your reaction
7:41>> exactly
7:42>> in the middle of what could become an
7:44argument or conflict.
7:45>> Yeah. Delay is the way of engaging the
7:49frontal loes instead of reacting direct
7:52from your amygdala you know which is
7:55terror right and defensiveness comes
7:57out. So when you engage the brain uh the
8:01thinking brain then you can be a little
8:04little less defensive.
8:05>> Yeah. Let me add that you can be uh less
8:09physiologically aroused. You know, one
8:11of the things that we found in our
8:13research is that often times people can
8:16be sitting as calmly as John and I are
8:19right now having a conflict, but one of
8:22their heart rates will be over a 100
8:25beats a minute and they've gone into
8:27fight or flight, which means blood has
8:31left this preffrontal cortex, moved back
8:34into the motor cortex. They cannot think
8:37clearly, listen clearly.
8:41problem solve and be creative. It's
8:43impossible because this is offline.
8:46>> So by John pulling out that notebook
8:50very slowly, there's a couple of ways
8:54it's wonderful. For one, it keeps you
8:57calm. It keeps you more more focused on
9:01>> kind of the cognitive element Yeah. of
9:04what I'm saying as opposed to [gasps]
9:08did he did she really say that or or for
9:13me what it tells me is that gosh he's
9:16going to take me seriously
9:19>> right he's not going to be thinking
9:21about okay when do I get the oil changed
9:24in the car I can tell that he's
9:27listening because he is taking notes and
9:30that's meaningful for me it helps me to
9:33feel his presence and it's a wonderful
9:36thing for all of you to do as well.
9:39>> I love that. And I I could imagine Dr.
9:42Gottman reaching Hold on, let me get my
9:44notebook [laughter] out of my pocket
9:46here. Um, you study love in a lab. What
9:51does that mean for the person that's not
9:53familiar with your groundbreaking
9:56foundational research on relationships?
9:59What do you do?
10:00>> Yeah. So, um, Julie and I, uh, after we
10:04first met, you know, we designed this
10:07apartment where 130 newlywed couples
10:11just a couple of months after the
10:12wedding would spend 24 hours, cameras
10:15rolling, no instructions, you know, they
10:18have an opportunity to eat together,
10:23clean up together, you know, read the
10:25newspaper, watch TV, whatever they want
10:28to do. And the cameras are just rolling.
10:30And while they're walking around, we're
10:33measuring their heart rate. They're
10:34measuring all kinds of physiological
10:36measures. Every time they urinate, we
10:38take a blood we take a sample and
10:40measure stress hormones. And then we
10:43take blood from them the next day and
10:45and look at the immune system and stress
10:48hormones and immune system. So, we're
10:50just kind of watching couples. And it
10:53turns out that we can predict the future
10:55of the relationship six years later from
10:58the way they interacted in that
11:00apartment lab.
11:01>> So the prediction is really 94% accurate
11:06>> at predicting the future.
11:08>> So you could predict with 94% accuracy
11:10who was going to make it and who wasn't.
11:12>> That's right.
11:13>> This is like the original reality TV. It
11:16sounds like you guys invented the
11:17format.
11:18>> That's right. Let me add also that this
11:21brilliant man over here created a
11:24fantastic
11:26system for codifying emotions. That
11:29means looking at the face, looking at
11:32the movements of the body, looking at
11:34the words, the tone of voice, the eye
11:37gaze and assessing from that what
11:41emotion is that individual feeling when
11:44they speak. Then what's the other
11:47individual going to respond with? What
11:49kind of feeling is that? So we call that
11:52spaf specific affect which means emotion
11:55specific affect coding.
11:58And that in itself tells us a huge
12:02amount about the dynamic. Who's being
12:06belligerent? Who's being doineering? Who
12:09is being subordinate?
12:11Who's being kind? who's trying to make a
12:15repair if they said the wrong thing so
12:20that the other person doesn't get their
12:21feelings hurt
12:22>> or using humor as a way to wind things
12:25down. Humor turns out to be very
12:27important,
12:28>> right? Why is how we handle conflict so
12:32important in a relationship?
12:34>> Because we fight all the time.
12:36[laughter]
12:37We are human beings. You know, one of
12:40the things, Mel, that I have really
12:42tried to understand since I was a kid is
12:46how come people are mean to each other?
12:49>> Why is that? What's evil? What does that
12:51even mean?
12:53>> What I've really understood from lots of
12:56archaeological reading and so on is that
13:00people have aggression. They've also got
13:03altruism. They can be very, very kind.
13:06But all of us have those aggressive
13:08instincts inside of us. [snorts] So what
13:11happens with it? Typically it goes to
13:15the person that's closest to us because
13:20that person we assume is not going to
13:22abandon us, is not going to run away.
13:26They're going to be there to listen to
13:28us. And so we have personality
13:32differences from our partner, lifestyle
13:35preference differences from our partner.
13:39Everybody has those. And 69%
13:44of the issues couples struggle with are
13:46perpetual conflicts. They never ever go
13:50away.
13:50>> That was a big surprise to us.
13:52>> Yeah. So they just keep coming up,
13:55right, over and over and over again in
13:57some different format through the side
13:59door. So what do you do with that? Well,
14:04people can avoid those, sweep them under
14:07the rug, but you know, they don't have
14:10conflict, but they grow more distant
14:12typically over time. Or they can learn
14:16to really talk in a way that's calm,
14:20little bit of emotion, maybe a little
14:23more intellectual, you know, trying to
14:25solve the problem very fast. We call
14:28those validators. And then there's me.
14:31I'm a volatile like maybe you are. And
14:35we love to explode. We love to be
14:39passionate about expressing our
14:42emotions. and I'm a conflict avoider.
14:44>> It's a great combo. So,
14:47>> we figured it out over time.
14:50>> Um, we're going to get into these
14:52different types,
14:54>> but before we do, I want to just talk a
14:57little bit about the research because
14:58it's so fascinating.
15:00>> Sure. Um, you've already mentioned that
15:02by observing a couple in this apartment
15:06love lab, you could predict with 94%
15:10accuracy,
15:10>> right,
15:11>> whether or not they were going to be
15:12together in 6 years.
15:13>> That's correct.
15:14>> And we're going to get into what you
15:16were looking at that really was the
15:19signal that they're not going to make
15:20it. But there's also interesting
15:23research that you have around how the
15:25first three minutes of a fight predict
15:29everything,
15:30>> right?
15:31>> Let's hear about that.
15:32>> You know, Bob and I found that um that
15:35if we we had couples talk about a
15:37conflict issue for 15 minutes, we could
15:40predict with almost 90% accuracy whether
15:44they would divorce or stay together. And
15:46if they stayed together, how happily
15:48married or unhappily married they would
15:50be. But then somebody in my lab, civil
15:53career, said, "What if we lop off the
15:56data from the last 3 minutes and we only
15:58have 12 minutes? What's the prediction
16:00like with only 12 minutes of data?" And
16:03it was just fine. And she said, "Well,
16:06let's lop off another 3 minutes." And it
16:09was just fine. She got down to the first
16:12three minutes and we were still
16:14predicting the future of the
16:16relationship very accurately by just
16:18looking at that first three minutes
16:21because couples who really are going to
16:25wind up divorced or together unhappily
16:28start off the conversation really
16:30differently from couples who are we call
16:33the masters of relationship. That
16:35beginning is so important.
16:37Now I'm like, "Okay, well, what's the
16:39beginning that predicts divorce and
16:41breakup
16:42>> versus the beginning that doesn't?"
16:45>> I have an idea. Let's role play it.
16:46>> Let's do it.
16:47>> Let's role play it.
16:48>> Sure.
16:48>> All right. So, this is predictive of
16:51going down. [laughter]
16:53>> Yeah. Well, so I I wanted to talk to you
16:55about this. I really think that you're
16:57you're really ruining this marriage and
17:00it's it's it's your responsibility
17:02because you're being so obsessive
17:06compulsively looking at Let me finish.
17:09>> I'm not going to let you finish. You're
17:10such a slob that you know I can't even
17:14walk through the room.
17:16>> I am charmingly uh sloppy. But you are
17:20really a nut. I mean you're you need
17:23therapy. You really do. I mean,
17:26everything has to be perfect for you.
17:28Everything's got to be perfect.
17:30>> Well, that's right. And I need just to
17:32live with you.
17:33>> I don't even want to talk about this
17:34anymore.
17:35>> All right.
17:38>> I feel like I now know what it's like to
17:41be a marriage therapist watching
17:43[laughter] the two of you.
17:44>> You ain't seen nothing.
17:46>> That could be worse. I once had somebody
17:49who was so upset, so flooded, and she
17:54was all of about 4'10
17:56and her husband was 6'5 and had cheated
17:59on her, etc. So, I tried to calm her
18:03down. She finally sat down on the couch
18:07and my couch was a beautiful red
18:10leather, gorgeous couch. When she left,
18:13there were scratch marks on the couch.
18:16Wow. that that
18:18>> I bet her heart rate was up. I bet it
18:20was. So, unpack what was happening
18:23>> in that because I think that we've all
18:27experienced those kinds of fights,
18:29whether it's about the relationship or
18:30now you're arguing about, well, you're
18:32you're you're giving the kid too much
18:34money and d and you're overparenting and
18:37like, you know, aiming it like what was
18:39happening in that fight you just had. So
18:42I was describing the problem in terms of
18:46her personality being deficient
18:49>> that there was something wrong with her.
18:51It was all her fault.
18:52>> So you you you
18:56that's all he was saying. And of course
18:59I got defensive and I counterattacked.
19:02That's a classic form of defensiveness.
19:04You counterattack, right? [snorts]
19:06>> So then I moved into you, you you you.
19:10And it was all about character flaws.
19:14>> He's a slob.
19:16>> That's right.
19:16>> And all I'm doing is trying to give her
19:18feedback about what's wrong with her so
19:20she can improve cuz I'm pretty much
19:22perfect as far as I can tell.
19:24>> See this? It's a halo. It's a halo.
19:26[laughter]
19:26>> It's not a yamaka. It's a halo that God
19:29gave me. So I'm always innocent and it's
19:31always her fault. [laughter]
19:34>> That's the way the disasters argue.
19:36>> And notice, did you see any listening
19:39there?
19:40No, zero listening. Zero.
19:43>> That's right. So, people were talking
19:45over each other and immediately coming
19:49up with their rebuke before even hearing
19:52the last words of their sentence and the
19:55partner.
19:56>> Right away, persuasion enters.
19:59>> I'm trying to persuade her that I'm
20:01right and she's wrong, you know, and I
20:04haven't even listened to what what her
20:06concerns are. Right. The other thing
20:08that happened is the volume,
20:11>> right,
20:12>> started getting higher and higher and
20:15higher, right? Right.
20:16>> Because neither one of you were
20:18listening and you're both blaming and
20:20now you're trying to talk over one
20:22another and then you both went like,
20:25>> and if I'm if I'm physiologically
20:27flooded,
20:29>> I think all I need to do is repeat
20:31myself louder in order to be more
20:34persuasive. That's the way I reason when
20:37I'm flooded.
20:38>> 63 times later. Have I listened?
20:41[laughter]
20:42No.
20:44What does a positive
20:47argument look like?
20:49>> Okay. Let's Let's role model that. We
20:51can use the same top.
20:52>> Okay. Yeah.
20:53>> Okay. So,
20:55>> what's going on, honey?
20:56>> Well, I'm I'm I'm kind of thinking that
20:58um I can't do anything right. You know,
21:01I I've tried I've tried, you know, being
21:04neater, more tidy, cleaning things up,
21:07and you know, it's never good enough for
21:09you. It feels like that, you know, like
21:10like I can't satisfy you. It's just like
21:14I I kind of give up, you know, what am I
21:17supposed to do to make you happy?
21:20>> Oh god, that sounds actually like a
21:22pretty terrible feeling.
21:24>> Yeah. So, you're really frustrated
21:27because there's nothing you can do that
21:30you feel is good enough. Is that right?
21:32Am I making you feel that way?
21:34>> Yeah.
21:34>> Oh, dear. What am I doing that leads to
21:38you feeling that way? Cuz I don't want
21:40you to feel that way. I don't want to
21:42treat you.
21:42>> Well, you know, like for example, you
21:44asked me to clean up the kitchen, you
21:46know, so I I clean it up, you know, and
21:50it doesn't meet your standards. So, I
21:52don't even know what your standards are.
21:54I mean,
21:54>> do you want me to tell you what they
21:56are? Probably not.
21:57>> Well, no, that would help. I really
21:59would like to know. Yeah.
22:00>> Oh, god.
22:01>> Cuz I think I've done it
22:02>> just fine.
22:03>> Okay.
22:04>> And then you're disappointed.
22:06>> I just don't get it.
22:08>> I see. Well, I tell you what, what would
22:11make a huge difference for me, right,
22:14>> is after washing
22:16>> Let me Let me write this down.
22:17>> Okay, that's a great idea. Get out your
22:20notebook.
22:21>> Yeah.
22:23Hang on a minute.
22:25>> Okay,
22:26>> let me just breathe a little bit.
22:28[laughter]
22:29Okay,
22:29>> I promise I won't hurt your face.
22:32>> After after washing the dishes.
22:34>> Yeah,
22:35>> it would be wonderful if you would wipe
22:38down the counters,
22:40>> you know, just get all those crumbs into
22:42the sink and then rinse them down the
22:46sink. That's really all I need, just to
22:50have counters that are clean. That would
22:53make a huge difference for me.
22:55>> Okay.
22:55>> It would feel great.
22:57>> You know, I really can't tell when uh
22:59counter is clean or not cuz it's got,
23:02you know, you got this pattern of, you
23:05know,
23:06Yeah,
23:07>> this is true. This is why I chose a
23:11counter with brown in it. It would
23:14disguise all of your
23:15>> Just wipe it down really well.
23:17>> Just wipe it. Yeah, just wipe it. That's
23:19all you have to do.
23:20>> All right. All right. I I can do that.
23:22>> Would you Would you mind doing that?
23:24>> I'll do that.
23:25>> Yay.
23:26>> Oh my god. I love you, too.
23:28>> Makes sense. [laughter]
23:29>> I You are adorable.
23:32>> We're okay.
23:34>> Can you explain what just happened
23:37in that
23:39conflict?
23:40>> Yeah. Yeah. Easy. So, it started it
23:45started in a perfect way, which was John
23:49bringing up that he's feeling bad about
23:52an interaction of ours.
23:55>> But notice he's not saying you're a
23:57schmuck and that's why I feel bad. He's
24:00saying, I feel like I can't do anything
24:04right. So, is you in there? No. He is
24:09having that feeling which pulls on my
24:13heart. Mel,
24:14>> he's being vulnerable with me and
24:17telling me what his feeling is like. And
24:20that feeling I'm translating into, oh
24:23god, he's feeling hopeless.
24:25>> He's feeling despair. I don't want him
24:28to feel that way. But here's the kicker.
24:32I want to understand what's making him
24:35feel that way. So instead of just
24:38responding
24:40with, you know, just a comment, I ask a
24:43question
24:44>> to try to understand, tell me more. Tell
24:48me more. Because, you know, it's sort of
24:51like if something pretty smelly is
24:54bubbling up from the earth, I want to
24:58know what's under the earth. you know
24:59what's going on down there that is
25:03creating something that feels bad for
25:05him. So I ask him a question and that
25:09gives me information about, oh,
25:13that's what's happening inside. That's
25:15something that we can change.
25:18It leads to a solution. I love this
25:21example and I'm going to tell you why.
25:24I
25:26personally know that Chris and I for
25:29years would have this reoccurring fight.
25:32And when I'm volcanoing and he's
25:36turtling, when he pokes his head out of
25:38the shell to say something, it would
25:40literally be nothing's ever good enough
25:42for you.
25:43>> Yeah.
25:44>> And I think that's a very common
25:48like way that people then bark at each
25:51other. And it's very different to say,
25:54"Well, nothing's good enough for you. I
25:55don't even know what to do because it's
25:56never enough for you."
25:59>> Versus what you just taught us,
26:02>> Mhm.
26:03>> which is instead of accusing nothing,
26:05it's you,
26:07>> I feel that no matter what I do, it's
26:11never enough. And you're right. As soon
26:14as Chris started saying that to me, I
26:17immediately feel like a monster. And
26:19then I want to know, okay, well, what
26:21what exactly? I'm sorry.
26:23>> Yeah.
26:23>> And I can see why this works.
26:25>> Sure. Right.
26:25>> Right.
26:26>> You know, if couples fight the first
26:28way, yelling at each other, it's never
26:31enough for you. Fine. Door slams. Go
26:34into your corners. Is there hope? Sure.
26:38Of course. You know, the thing is this.
26:42When in our lab we saw couples who were
26:45going down the road of distress,
26:48remember they weren't getting any
26:50intervention.
26:51>> They weren't reading anything. They
26:53weren't listening to fabulous podcasts
26:56like yours. They weren't trying to learn
26:59a different manner of relating to one
27:03another. So without intervention,
27:05they're falling back on old habits, on
27:08what they learned at the feet of their
27:10parents or caretakers, which didn't
27:13work. So, you know, nobody takes
27:16relationships 101 in high school. You
27:19got to learn different ways of talking
27:22to one another. The Mel Robbins podcast
27:25is proudly sponsored by AMA Insurance,
27:28our exclusive auto, home, and life
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28:28When somebody says to you, "Oh, we never
28:30fight."
28:33>> What do you think?
28:36>> I think they're probably conflict
28:38avoiders. And I think, oh dear,
28:42[laughter]
28:43we've got to help this couple surface,
28:47unear
28:49[snorts] the differences, the things
28:51that are irritating, annoying. Because
28:54if you hold them inside and you don't
28:57bring them up, after a while they
28:59accumulate and then you may end up with
29:03an eruption, right,
29:05>> which doesn't help anybody.
29:07>> One thing that can happen, um, we saw in
29:11this study that the Sloan Center at UCLA
29:14did on dual career couples with young
29:17children, and they spent less than 10%
29:20of an evening in the same room. They
29:23talked to each other an average of 35
29:25minutes a week and mostly what they
29:28talked about was errands. Who's going to
29:30do what when. So they they wound up
29:33really living these parallel lives where
29:37they ignored the relationship. They
29:39ignored friendship, intimacy,
29:42fun, adventure. They were just their
29:46lives had devolved into this infinite
29:49to-do list that they did together. But
29:52that was the only contact they had. So
29:54they lived life in parallel. You know,
29:57he he goes to work, she goes to work,
29:59they come home, they you know, they're
30:01with the kids, but they're not really
30:04talking to each other. They're not
30:05saying, "God, you know, we used to have
30:08so much fun and we don't have any
30:09anymore. We're just kind of becoming
30:11drudges." They don't say that to one
30:14another.
30:14>> They say roommates.
30:16>> They stay roommates. They avoid
30:18conflict. They avoid saying how lonely
30:21they are, how unhappy they are, how much
30:23they miss the way they used to really
30:26pay attention to the relationship.
30:27>> If the person listening is thinking,
30:29"Well, that's me."
30:30>> Because I can think of periods of Chris
30:33and my marriage where we have three kids
30:35who are now all in their 20s,
30:37>> but when they were little,
30:39>> that was us.
30:40>> That was you. We were two ships passing
30:42in the morning and the night and arguing
30:44about who didn't go to the grocery store
30:46and that no matter what I do, it's never
30:48enough.
30:49>> Yeah. You have to build in rituals of
30:51connection in the relationship. build in
30:54times that you can count on having your
30:57partner's ears. And you know, we have an
31:00annual honeymoon that we do. And for 27
31:03years, we've gone to the same bed and
31:05breakfast and took took our kayak and we
31:09spend two weeks asking each other three
31:12questions. What sucked about last year?
31:15What did you hate about last year? What
31:18did you love about last year? And what
31:20do you want next year to be like?
31:23So we we have that ritual where we know
31:26we can connect and it's romantic and
31:29it's fun and we kayak and you know we
31:31hike and you know it's always magic. Let
31:35me point out though what John is talking
31:37about especially for really busy two
31:41career couples
31:42>> are those rituals of connection but they
31:45don't have to be great big uh you know
31:49broadcasts. They can be something so
31:52simple like how do you say good morning
31:56first thing when you wake up? How do you
31:59say good night and you look forward to
32:02that?
32:03What do you do on the weekends when you
32:06get to sleep in?
32:08How about a date night? You know, I
32:12mean, lots of people talk about that,
32:13but do they actually do it?
32:16>> So, there's so many ways we can connect
32:19with one another that sustains the sense
32:23that uh they're right beside me. They're
32:26right there even though they're in a
32:28different office. I love that
32:30recommendation because I do think when
32:32you're in that moment as the research
32:34suggests, which I think most couples are
32:37both probably working because of the
32:38reality of how expensive life is.
32:41>> That's right.
32:41>> And coming and going and that only 35
32:46minutes a week in the I mean that's just
32:49>> and I appreciate the small thing like
32:52could you create something first thing
32:54in the morning? Could you create
32:55something that's part of the windown at
32:58night? One of the things that I remember
33:00that made a big difference and I'll just
33:01share it in case it's helpful for the
33:03person listening is since logistics was
33:05the reality and it was also the source
33:07of all of our conflict that we the one
33:11connection ritual that really changed
33:13things was we had a Sunday night
33:14calendar meeting.
33:15>> Now that doesn't exactly sound like a
33:17date night.
33:18>> Yeah. But it became
33:20a consistent thing we could do every
33:23week that helped us be aligned
33:27>> and helped us coordinate the logistics
33:30at one point.
33:32>> You were a team.
33:33>> Yes. And to this day, we do it.
33:37>> That's great.
33:38>> And it's just the smallest of things.
33:40And the other thing that I'll I have to
33:42give a huge shout out to Chris that he
33:43does that makes a big difference for me
33:46is he puts little notes just kind of
33:50like the the notebook you have. He'll
33:52rip out a page and just put I love you
33:53and I'll open up my eyeglass case in the
33:56middle of the day
33:57>> and there it is.
33:58>> Or I'll open up my wallet and there it
34:01is. And I had no idea that he had done
34:04that. And so it's kind of this little
34:06signal that I'm still here with you even
34:10though I may not be standing next to
34:12you.
34:12>> You know, a consistent research finding
34:14is that you cannot just focus on
34:17conflict as a therapist. You have to
34:20work on friendship and intimacy,
34:23>> romance, passion, play, and fun. You
34:26have to work on all of that together. It
34:28It's not enough to just make conflict
34:31better. You really have to bring you
34:34know the two souls together [laughter]
34:36in a way that is it brings joy into the
34:41relationship. Let me just mention
34:43something about your meeting which is
34:46fabulous doing that as a ritual of
34:48connection. One thing that we also talk
34:52about is a weekly meeting which often
34:55takes place on Sundays. We call it the
34:57state of the union. Right? And so um
35:02what we suggest is that first you begin
35:06with gratitude. You think of something
35:10your partner has done that maybe you
35:13haven't yet thanked them for and you
35:16express your gratitude and your
35:18appreciation to your partner for having
35:21done that. You know so often we take our
35:25partners for granted right especially
35:26after years of being together. So all of
35:30us however still need to be seen. We
35:34need to be appreciated. [snorts] And so
35:37starting with that is lovely. And then
35:40in the middle piece maybe there is a
35:42complaint that you have you haven't
35:44talked about or maybe you had a little
35:47regrettable incident that you need to
35:49process. [clears throat]
35:50Clear the air about that. Try and
35:52understand what went wrong during that
35:54and what to do right next time. And then
35:59you end the meeting with another
36:01appreciation, another expression of
36:04gratitude. I mean, there's there's
36:06nothing better than hearing gratitude as
36:11a sign that look, you're visible. You're
36:16important to me. I see who you are. I
36:20love what you do. And I want you to know
36:25I recognize you. And it's you're
36:28beautiful.
36:28>> And a great question to end the meeting
36:30with is what can I do next week to make
36:33you feel loved?
36:35>> Is that the best question in the world?
36:37>> I know.
36:38>> I would love to have us just really
36:42highlight the warning signs around
36:46conflict. And there are four horsemen of
36:49the apocalypse in your relationship.
36:51What are they?
36:52>> Okay, so the first one is criticism.
36:56Criticism means blaming a problem on a
37:00personality flaw of your partner.
37:03>> Like you're so selfish, you're so lazy,
37:05you're so inconsiderate, thoughtless,
37:07whatever. So a characteristic that's bad
37:12that you're seeing in your partner.
37:14That's criticism. Okay. Secondly is
37:18contempt.
37:20And contempt is the worst one we have.
37:23Contempt is like criticism, but you're
37:27coming from a place of superiority,
37:30looking down your nose at your partner,
37:33and you're sneering a little bit. You've
37:37got a look of disgust maybe on your
37:39face. There's scorn. There's mockery.
37:42Sometimes sarcasm
37:45is contempt. And contempt is not only
37:48the best predictor of relationship
37:51demise, but as John was saying, and I'll
37:54fine-tune it a little bit, the number of
37:57times a listener hears contempt in a
38:02conflict for 15 minutes predicts how
38:06many infectious illnesses they're going
38:08to have in the next four years.
38:12>> Right? because it is sulfuric acid for
38:15the immune system.
38:17>> Yeah, it's a big deal. The third
38:20horseman is defensiveness.
38:23We all love defensiveness. Everybody's
38:26defensive unless they have an ego of a
38:28rock. I haven't met a rock lately. So
38:32defensiveness
38:33gets manifested as either counterattack
38:37as we described or whining.
38:42>> Oh, I did too. Clean the kitchen. What
38:46do you mean? Okay. I love whining. It's
38:49It's great. And then there's
38:52stonewalling. And stonewalling is
38:55completely shutting down. But it's not
38:57shutting down for just a few seconds,
38:59you know, to come up with the right
39:01phrase. It's shutting down completely
39:05>> for minutes, minutes, minutes, long
39:08minutes, maybe hours at a time. And what
39:11brilliant John here and his colleague
39:14Bob Levenson discovered with physiology
39:18is that when a person was flooded, they
39:21were in fight or flight. Their heart
39:23rates were often over a 100 beats a
39:26minute as they sat there
39:28>> and they started stonewalling
39:29>> and they started stonewalling in order
39:33to go inside and try and soothe
39:36themselves because being in fight or
39:39flight while you're sitting there feels
39:41awful. Makes you sick.
39:44>> So that turtle thing that Chris does,
39:46right? Yes. you know, and he's just
39:48starting to calm himself down, but to
39:49the person speaking to him, it looks
39:52like he doesn't care.
39:53>> Correct.
39:54>> You know, and he's out yelling. I'm
39:57yelling cuz he's like not responding.
39:59>> That's right. So,
40:00>> and it makes it worse. Yes. I can see
40:02that. Well, the other thing is that uh
40:04Bob and I also as we kept following
40:07couples, we found there was a group of
40:08couples who didn't do the four horsemen,
40:12but when they talked about the events of
40:14the day,
40:16there was no connection.
40:18>> And they even went out of their way to
40:20show that they were bored with their
40:22partner talking about their day. So,
40:25it's not that they had all this negative
40:27stuff. They didn't have very much
40:29positivity, not very much interest in
40:31one another, not very much shared humor,
40:34affection, and those couples divorce an
40:37average of 16 years after the wedding.
40:40>> They last longer,
40:41>> but you know, it's still disaster.
40:44>> I would love to go deeper into all four
40:46of the horsemen of the apocalypse of a
40:49relationship. Could you describe for the
40:51person who's listening right now, what
40:54do you mean by flooding? So if
40:56somebody's never heard this term
40:59>> um
41:00>> and they're not quite and you know I
41:03think there's a it's kind of obvious if
41:04you're like the stonewaller or rather
41:07you shut down and you're like the turtle
41:09or you're a volcano like me but can you
41:12describe what does it mean to have this
41:15emotional flooding and what are the what
41:18are the kind of personality types of
41:20flooding if you will so the person can
41:22see themselves as we unpack back the
41:26four different horsemen if that makes
41:28sense.
41:28>> Sure. Sure. So first of all there is no
41:33correlation between personality type and
41:37flooding. Anybody can get flooded.
41:40>> Anybody first of all
41:42>> and what does that mean when you use
41:43that term flooded?
41:44>> Okay. So what it means is that you are
41:48so overwhelmed
41:51by what feels like facing a saber-tooth
41:55tiger.
41:56>> So what's happening is you're hearing
41:59what feels like an attack. It may not be
42:02one, but it feels like one. And because
42:05it feels like an attack, right? [snorts]
42:09And it's a dangerous attack. It's
42:11threatening. It sets off this
42:14fightor-flight response. And so men who
42:18experience this and get flooded are
42:20going to look like this. They give
42:22themselves permission
42:25to
42:25>> to look away to look away. But a female
42:29doesn't typically. And here's why.
42:32Because you know as women from you know
42:36this high we are trained to relate to
42:41others to nurture others to take care of
42:44others right to be sensitive to others
42:47feelings. So we don't give ourselves
42:50permission to break contact and look
42:53away. So what flooding for a woman looks
42:57like is very different. It looks like
42:59this.
43:02And you're just kind of staring.
43:05>> Nobody's home.
43:06>> No one's home.
43:07>> Nobody's home. Blank face.
43:08>> That's right. You may be meeting the
43:11other person's eyes, but nobody's home.
43:14You've taken yourself out.
43:16>> I just realized my daughter does that.
43:19>> Ah.
43:19>> When I get like scary
43:23that she
43:26>> a deer in the headlights.
43:27>> Yes. Doesn't know what to do.
43:28>> That's right. Yeah. Okay.
43:30>> That was very helpful. Because you're
43:32right. If and I know that this is all
43:35based on your research that for a lot of
43:37men it's the crossed arms. It's the
43:39looking away. It's the walking out of
43:41the room
43:42>> or going to make a drink as you're
43:43walking
43:44>> like following them yelling at them.
43:47>> Yes.
43:49>> Yeah. Yeah.
43:50>> And it and it feels kind of awful in
43:52your body, you know. It's it's it's
43:54almost like having a panic attack. you
43:56know, you're, you know, the breathing is
43:58more shallow and more rapid and, you
44:01know, it really feels like uh there's no
44:04way to win here, you know. I mean, you
44:07you just have to escape.
44:09>> Yes, I can see that. And you're escaping
44:12your body or the room.
44:13>> That's right.
44:14>> That's that was super helpful. Let's dig
44:17into each of the four horsemen and start
44:20with criticism.
44:22>> Okay. How is criticism defined in the
44:24research and
44:26>> I'd love to have you role play.
44:29>> Sure.
44:29>> A example and
44:32>> teach us how we can shift out of it.
44:36>> Okay.
44:37>> When we're in the middle of it,
44:38>> let me just mention that the shifting
44:41that you are pointing out which is very
44:44astute is what we call repair.
44:47>> Okay. So making a repair during
44:51a conversation is a great way to step
44:54aside from those four horsemen and make
44:56the conversation flow better.
44:59>> Okay. Okay. So um again I think the
45:03definition of it would be blaming a
45:06problem on a personality flaw of your
45:08partner. That's what it is.
45:10>> So let me start.
45:10>> Okay. Go ahead. I've been
45:12[clears throat] uh meaning to talk to
45:15you because I think that uh I have
45:18something to teach you.
45:21You know
45:21>> what do you mean?
45:22>> Uh well, you know, I noticed that, you
45:24know, you kind of get upset when the
45:26house is in some kind of disarray and I
45:28don't have that problem. You know, I can
45:30concentrate really well, you know,
45:32whatever's going on around me. So I can
45:35kind of teach you to focus your mind
45:37more cuz I think your mind is kind of um
45:41weak, you know. I think your your mind
45:44is not
45:44>> You think my mind is weak?
45:47>> Yeah. I think you have a weak mind and I
45:49can help you strengthen your mind better
45:52not as much as I am.
45:53>> You did.
45:55>> What?
45:56>> I don't have a weak mind. What are you
45:58talking about?
45:58>> Well, I'm just trying to be helpful to
46:00you. I you know I'm trying I'm trying to
46:03help you strengthen your mind so it's
46:05more like my mind.
46:06>> I tell you what, go help the dog. Okay.
46:10Not me. Okay. So that's criticism.
46:13>> All right. Got it.
46:14>> The antidote for each of those.
46:17>> Yeah. So how do I do that?
46:18>> We're going to So I'll make a repair.
46:20>> Okay.
46:20>> Okay. Okay. So why don't you pick up
46:23>> Yeah. [snorts] You know, [clears throat]
46:25like I was saying, you know, I really
46:27can help you focus your mind better and
46:32be more much more like me, you know,
46:34>> honey.
46:35>> Yeah.
46:36>> I need to tell you, I'm really feeling
46:38defensive right now.
46:40>> You are.
46:40>> I don't want to be defensive, but I feel
46:43that way. The way that you're describing
46:47me feels to me like a put down.
46:50>> Oh. Can you say what you want to say in
46:53different words?
46:55>> Um,
46:58well, okay. Um,
47:02I think it would be great if even when
47:05there were a lot of books around and
47:07papers around that you were okay with
47:10that, you didn't get upset.
47:13Tall order. [laughter] Yeah. Well, I
47:17tell you what, I I hear you and I know
47:22that I probably come across as a nag
47:24sometimes. I'm sure I do.
47:27>> Uh
47:28>> I would say that. Yeah,
47:29>> I bet you would.
47:31>> Um but I, you know, I think I can spend
47:35some of the time feeling comfortable
47:38with everything
47:40scattered around.
47:42However,
47:44I think you probably know me well enough
47:46to understand that when my environment
47:50[snorts]
47:50feels chaotic just to me, it may not be
47:54to you, but it is to me.
47:57>> Then I get all discombobulated inside. I
48:01feel really disorganized.
48:04And so all the papers and so on
48:07contribute unfortunately to my having
48:11that feeling. I wish I wasn't like that,
48:13but I am
48:15>> cuz I I I think that a house ought to be
48:17a little bit messy to be comfortable.
48:19>> Yeah, I know you do.
48:20>> You know, just [laughter]
48:21my mom used to clean clean the place to
48:25within an inch of its life, you know.
48:27>> I love your mom.
48:28>> And she put plastic on all the
48:30furniture.
48:30>> She was crazy. That's true. I remember.
48:33Yeah.
48:33>> Yeah. Okay. Well, you don't have to sit
48:36on plastic. Okay. [laughter]
48:38>> It's okay.
48:39>> Yeah.
48:39>> Right.
48:40>> Beautiful. And I saw you repaired by
48:43using I
48:44>> That's right.
48:45>> I feel
48:46>> That's right.
48:47>> I feel defensive. So, when you're
48:49getting criticized, saying I feel
48:51defensive right now
48:52>> instead of going defensive.
48:54>> Right.
48:54>> Right. Or instead of counterattacking.
48:57>> Yes. Or stop criticizing me.
48:59>> Yeah. Exactly.
49:00>> I feel defensive. That's the repair for
49:03criticism.
49:03>> Yep.
49:04>> Got it. Beautiful. Let's move on to
49:08contempt.
49:09>> Okay. You want to define that one,
49:11honey?
49:11>> Yeah. Contempt has this air of
49:14superiority. You know, I'm better than
49:16you.
49:17>> Can you show us what contempt looks and
49:20sounds like and how it is different than
49:25criticism?
49:26>> Mhm. Mhm.
49:28>> You can't do anything right, can you?
49:31What are you talking about? God, I mean,
49:34you know, even when you go shopping, you
49:36spend too much money. You know, you
49:38spend too much money on clothes. So, you
49:40know, I you know,
49:41>> so what?
49:42>> Well, we're we're trying to save for a
49:44down payment on a house and you're
49:46ruining the whole thing. You just spent
49:49it.
49:49>> I'm ruining the whole thing.
49:51>> Right.
49:52>> How dare you? You just went out and
49:55bought a Porsche for God's sakes, and
49:57I'm
49:57>> I need that for my work. I need that.
50:00I I wouldn't spend it if I didn't need
50:03it for my work
50:04>> to take it back. I need to take it back.
50:06Okay. So, that's one example. So, it's
50:09judgment
50:10>> but from a place of superiority.
50:14What about the eye rolling
50:18>> and the like your example
50:20>> like you get another one
50:22>> with eye rolling and the cheek? Well, I
50:25I I was thinking of an example that uh
50:28one of our therapists talked about. He
50:31seeing this couple
50:32>> and she was being contemptuous and he
50:35said, "Do you think you're better than
50:37me?"
50:39And she said, "Better than I."
50:46Boom. Wow. Isn't that a killer? Correct
50:49their grammar. That's a great way to be
50:52contemptuous.
50:55>> Ouch. [snorts]
50:56I have a couple in my life that's
50:57uncomfortable to be around because as
50:59one person's talking, the other one is
51:02like rolling their eyes. That's right.
51:04>> As they leave the room, they complain
51:07about them.
51:09And why is contempt the most harmful?
51:15And let's start there. It's really it's
51:17really a murder attempt
51:20>> at the person's sense of self
51:23>> and the Jewish Talmud talks about it as
51:27murder.
51:28>> You know, you're destroying the other
51:30person's sense of self and you're saying
51:33you are worthless.
51:36>> And that's the worst attack. You know,
51:40it's not just something you do that I
51:42don't like, but I don't like you.
51:45>> Right? M
51:45>> I call it
51:47>> I call it character assassination.
51:50>> That's what it is.
51:51>> And do people that are contemptuous
51:53actually are they able to recognize it?
51:57>> Uh not always. Usually the listener is
52:01the one who recognizes it. You know, um
52:05the other person usually has a pretty
52:07heavy sense of entitlement
52:09>> that they deserve to say that. But let
52:12me also add something about why it's so
52:15destructive
52:17>> that you know a lot of people don't
52:19really think about and acknowledge but
52:22none of us got parented perfectly right
52:26none of us got taught with absolute
52:30appreciation in school. So all of us
52:34have at base at least a part of
52:37ourselves that's insecure,
52:40>> that needs to be loved, that needs to be
52:43cared about. And some people like to say
52:47that that's immature
52:50or, you know, you're just not a
52:51grown-up. And I would like to say to
52:54them, no, that's wrong. We all have that
53:00inside ourselves. We don't lose that
53:04core of insecurity
53:07and the need to be looked at with care,
53:13with love, with understanding,
53:16to be spoken to with respect, even
53:20admiration.
53:21>> None of us lose that. We just add layers
53:25on top of it as we grow older. But it's
53:28still inside there and it can still get
53:32hit if somebody expresses contempt.
53:36>> That makes a lot of sense.
53:38>> So if you're the one that's getting
53:40stepped on and demeaned and interrupted
53:44and corrected
53:46by your partner, how do you repair this?
53:49>> Okay, so here's how I would repair it.
53:53Let's say he's just been contemptuous.
53:55>> Mhm.
53:57So,
53:59you know, John, there's no way that I
54:03can hear what you're saying right now
54:06because I feel so insulted
54:10>> by what you're saying. I don't know if
54:12that's your intention or not,
54:14>> but
54:16I feel like shrinking away.
54:18>> I want to just disappear. No, I don't
54:21want that
54:22>> because it it it really I feel really
54:26hurt
54:27>> by what you're saying.
54:29>> So, I wish you would flip what you just
54:33said on its head and tell me what you do
54:37want
54:38>> or you do like rather
54:41>> than this wave of negativity I'm
54:44getting.
54:44>> I feel like I'm judging you
54:47>> big time.
54:47>> Yeah.
54:48>> Yeah. Okay,
54:50>> that's what it looks like.
54:52>> And when you get somebody that says, "I
54:54am judging you." Now you're like
54:56realizing, "Okay."
54:57>> Okay. Well, that's okay. So, let's say I
55:00am, you know,
55:01>> I'm just trying to give you feedback,
55:04>> honey. The effect of the feedback and
55:07the way that you're giving it to me
55:10pushes me away.
55:12>> It makes me want to run away from you
55:14because it hurts so much.
55:17Feedback. I can hear if you're telling
55:20me what you do want,
55:22>> not what you don't.
55:23>> Okay.
55:24>> Or what you don't like.
55:25>> Good point.
55:29>> Amazingly helpful. I love that. I I feel
55:32insulted. I feel hurt cuz what ends up
55:36happening when it's you that is getting
55:38stepped on is you tend to flood
55:41>> and you don't know what to do.
55:42>> That's right.
55:43>> Yes.
55:43>> That's right.
55:44>> Wow.
55:44>> Yeah. Respect is is as important as
55:47affection.
55:48>> Respect is as important as infection.
55:51>> Yeah. Especially for women. I think you
55:54know today
55:56women need to feel that their partner
55:59values and respects them and
56:03as much as they respect anybody,
56:05>> you know. So, one of my New Year's
56:08resolutions was, let me try to treat
56:12Julie with the kind of respect that I
56:15treated my father with.
56:18>> And I had to work on that and
56:23become self-aware of ways in which I was
56:26not communicating respect. For example,
56:30it takes her longer to get ready than it
56:32does me. So, you know,
56:35>> I would get in the car and wait for her.
56:38And while I was in the car, I was
56:39saying, "What the heck? Why does it take
56:42so," you know, by the time she came out
56:44to the car, I had worked myself into a
56:47frenzy, you know, of anger about this
56:50thing? And you know, instead I sat in
56:53the car and said, you know, she there's
56:55a lot of really important stuff that she
56:57sees that I don't see at all and she
57:00needs to get those things done before
57:03she feels ready to leave the house.
57:06>> So, I think I'll just read my novel and
57:09whenever she comes out, you know,
57:12>> this was an issue in our marriage, too.
57:14>> Yeah. [laughter] Chris would be sitting
57:16in the pickup in the driveway running
57:19and I'm still putting my makeup on and
57:21then I'm running around the house
57:22looking for my keys cuz I forgot that
57:24he's driving [laughter] and when I would
57:27then get in the car he would be really
57:30frustrated.
57:30>> Yeah.
57:31>> And I'd get an earful about it and now I
57:36try a little harder and he's usually
57:39listening to an audio book when I get in
57:40the [laughter] pickup truck that's been
57:42running for 11 minutes. I've shaved like
57:44four minutes off.
57:46He is the best ever. [laughter]
57:50I love Marshalls. I mean, come on. Don't
57:53you love Marshalls? Of course you do. I
57:56am so excited that Marshalls is now a
57:59sponsor of the Mel Robbins podcast
58:01because at Marshalls, you get the good
58:04stuff. Brand names and styles that you
58:06love for way less. And isn't it so fun
58:09to walk into Marshalls and you're like,
58:12"Okay, I wonder what's in here, and I
58:15bet there's some really good deals." It
58:18instantly puts you in a good mood. How
58:21do they do it? Well, the buyers at
58:24Marshalls, they are hustling behind the
58:25scenes 24/7 to bring you really cool
58:29things and all the great deals. That
58:31means you only have to worry about
58:33having fun shopping everything from
58:35dresses to denim to shoes. Another
58:38reason why I love shopping at Marshalls,
58:40I can shop for the whole family. And I'm
58:42so impressed by the designers and all
58:45the styles they stock. Marshalls, they
58:48get the deals, you get the good stuff.
58:50Shop now at marshalls.com or find a
58:52store near you. The third horsemen uh of
58:56the apocalypse of your relationship is
58:59defensiveness.
59:01What is defensiveness? And why is it so
59:04automatic? You know, like it's just like
59:07you you just kind of feel like you
59:09should defend yourself. What should you
59:11do instead?
59:13>> You know, that lawyer that I talked
59:15about, he was amazing at not getting
59:17defensive when his wife was criticizing
59:19him. And he he really was saying, "She's
59:22got an important point. I just don't
59:24know what it is. I have to help
59:25[laughter] her. I have to help her get
59:27to it, you know. Uh, but I'm sure she's
59:30she's got something she really wants to
59:32tell me that's important. And he had
59:34that attitude. Very respectful, you
59:37know, and
59:39I think that's the attitude you got to
59:41take. Instead of saying I'm innocent,
59:44you know, I have I have no
59:45responsibility in this. I'm I'm pretty
59:48much perfect. If there's anybody
59:50defective, it's you. That's a really bad
59:52attitude [laughter]
59:54because you're not going to listen if
59:55you have that attitude. I would love to
59:57hear you guys role play and if you could
1:00:00do an example where one of you wishes
1:00:04the other one would either lose weight
1:00:07or take a little better care of
1:00:08themselves or you know get a trainer or
1:00:12actually pick up the weights that we
1:00:14bought last year and use them. You know
1:00:17what I'm saying? And then you know and
1:00:18then the other ones that because I think
1:00:19this is something that is
1:00:21>> Oh boy.
1:00:22>> Yes.
1:00:22>> That's a hot issue.
1:00:23>> Yeah. It's a hot issue.
1:00:24>> Yeah. Okay.
1:00:26>> So, let's say let's say you criticize
1:00:28me, you know. Yeah.
1:00:30>> For, you know, having a tummy in, but
1:00:32you're really worried about my health.
1:00:34It's really,
1:00:35>> right? Yeah.
1:00:36>> Okay. Uh, let's see, [clears throat]
1:00:41>> John.
1:00:43Uh, I need to talk to you about
1:00:44something. You know, I know that you
1:00:48love sitting and reading your books,
1:00:52especially your mathematic books, which
1:00:54I can not understand one page of.
1:00:58>> Yeah.
1:00:58>> But honey, I'm you know, you really,
1:01:02really, really should go to the gym more
1:01:04often. You really should. You're only
1:01:06going to the gym like once a month.
1:01:09That's not going to do anything for your
1:01:11body. That's I mean, you know, your
1:01:14body's starting to get a little kind of
1:01:18flabby or something. I mean, just that
1:01:22belly is
1:01:24going out further and further.
1:01:27>> Well,
1:01:30I think I'm fine.
1:01:32>> You think you're fine?
1:01:34>> Yeah. Honey, the thing that I'm worried
1:01:37about, and this is true for both of us,
1:01:40is that we're both getting older, right?
1:01:44And you know, you've read all the
1:01:46newspaper articles about being fit
1:01:50really adds years to your life, being
1:01:54healthy, exercising is one of the best
1:01:56things you can do.
1:01:58I just read this article about a guy
1:02:00who's a long-distance runner and he had
1:02:02a heart attack while he was running and
1:02:04he was 40 years old.
1:02:06>> So, I don't think I don't think exercise
1:02:08is such a great thing.
1:02:09>> But honey,
1:02:09>> a lot of these athletes are pretty
1:02:11stupid.
1:02:12>> Well,
1:02:13what they found is that there was a
1:02:15heart defect there. It wasn't the
1:02:19running that caused it. It was the heart
1:02:21defect.
1:02:22>> But
1:02:23>> you don't think he overdid it?
1:02:24>> No, I don't think so. But if you don't
1:02:28exercise, I'm really afraid that you may
1:02:32suffer a heart attack,
1:02:34right?
1:02:35>> Yeah.
1:02:36>> I mean, I don't want to lose you. I do
1:02:40not want to lose you.
1:02:42>> And so, I'm wondering, how can I support
1:02:47you going to the gym more often? Or does
1:02:50that feel too controlling?
1:02:53No, I think what if we went together?
1:02:56>> Love it. Would you be [clears throat]
1:02:58willing to make the time?
1:03:00>> Yeah, if I can swim.
1:03:02>> Sure.
1:03:02>> I like to swim.
1:03:03>> Swimming is great.
1:03:05>> Yeah,
1:03:05>> swimming is wonderful.
1:03:06>> I haven't been in a long time.
1:03:07>> You haven't?
1:03:08>> Yeah.
1:03:08>> You want to do it again?
1:03:10>> Yeah.
1:03:11>> Well, yay.
1:03:12>> All right.
1:03:13>> That would be terrific.
1:03:14>> Okay.
1:03:15>> I'll work on it.
1:03:15>> Okay.
1:03:16>> Yeah.
1:03:19How do you tell someone that it's not
1:03:22that you're worried about them, it's
1:03:23that you're losing interest in them?
1:03:25>> Oh, okay. That's a good one.
1:03:28>> Cuz I think the exercise thing is a big
1:03:32one.
1:03:32>> Yeah. And you know, like really taking
1:03:36care of yourself. And yes, there's the
1:03:38I'm afraid something that's going to
1:03:40happen, but it's also like I actually am
1:03:43pulling away from you because I'm not
1:03:46proud to be with you or I am losing my
1:03:49attraction to you.
1:03:50>> Okay.
1:03:53I have something I want to talk to you
1:03:55about that is super sensitive.
1:03:59>> Uh-oh.
1:04:00>> I know.
1:04:00>> Let me get my notebook. You better get
1:04:02your notebook.
1:04:03>> And let me preface it. Let me preface it
1:04:06by saying I adore you. I love you so so
1:04:11so much.
1:04:13>> That's nice to hear.
1:04:14>> Yeah.
1:04:16>> But
1:04:17>> Oh, it is a butt.
1:04:18>> Yep. Here comes the sensitive part.
1:04:22I don't know exactly what's happening,
1:04:25but as you've been gaining weight,
1:04:30>> becoming more of a sphere
1:04:34instead of a triangle. [snorts]
1:04:39I don't know. My libido is going down.
1:04:43My sexual interest
1:04:47is declining.
1:04:48>> Oh, that sucks.
1:04:50Well, it does because I love you and I
1:04:54really really want to express that
1:04:56physically to you,
1:04:59but at the same time, I really, really
1:05:02loved it when you were working out. And
1:05:07I could feel the muscles in your back,
1:05:10in your shoulders, your arms. It It felt
1:05:14really wonderful.
1:05:15>> So, I wrote down lose weight and get
1:05:18more sex.
1:05:20That's a possibility.
1:05:21>> All right. Okay.
1:05:22>> What do you think? Would you like that?
1:05:25Would you like to get more sex? Because
1:05:28>> if about 20 lbs melted away,
1:05:34>> I bet you my sexual interest.
1:05:40>> Great idea.
1:05:41>> Yeah.
1:05:42>> Okay.
1:05:43Tada.
1:05:46>> [laughter]
1:05:46>> I'm sorry I'm laughing, but I You two
1:05:49are adorable and
1:05:51and we have all been in a relationship
1:05:54like that. The fourth horseman that's
1:05:56going to destroy your relationship
1:05:58potentially is stonewalling, right?
1:06:00>> We've talked a little bit about it, but
1:06:02just so we're clear about what it is.
1:06:04Okay.
1:06:06Well, you know, we actually didn't
1:06:08understand it when we first saw it. And
1:06:11we brought men back in and said, "What
1:06:14was going through your mind right
1:06:16there?"
1:06:18And so we got this sort of internal
1:06:22monologue that guys were going through
1:06:25and they really were saying, "This is
1:06:28hopeless. I just gota I got to endure
1:06:31this. I got to get through this." and
1:06:35you know,
1:06:37don't say anything because whatever you
1:06:39say, you're going to make it worse and
1:06:42you know, I'm just going to go get a get
1:06:45a beer and watch the game, you know, and
1:06:48not think about this. Let me out of
1:06:50here. That's what they were thinking,
1:06:53you know, and it was sad, you know, is
1:06:56really like I'm overwhelmed, you know,
1:06:59I'm in a war zone,
1:07:01>> you know, and there there aren't any
1:07:03shelters,
1:07:05>> you know.
1:07:07>> Can you give us a example of what this
1:07:09sort of sounds like in a relationship?
1:07:13>> Uh,
1:07:13>> when one when you know the man go or
1:07:16typically the guy, but often it can be
1:07:19the the the woman
1:07:20>> can be. Yeah. Yeah. 15% of the time it
1:07:23was a woman stonewalling,
1:07:25>> right? Well, let's let's do you
1:07:28stonewalling.
1:07:29>> Okay.
1:07:29>> Okay. Uh so I don't understand why you
1:07:34haven't paid the bills. I mean, the
1:07:37bills have got to be paid. Why aren't
1:07:39you paying the bills, man? They're
1:07:41sitting there on the table.
1:07:43>> This is not a big deal. I just
1:07:46>> I don't want to talk about this,
1:07:47>> John. It's a huge deal. You're going to
1:07:50ruin our credit if you don't pay the
1:07:53bills. Would you please pay the bills?
1:07:57So, what are you doing now? You're
1:07:59pretending I don't exist. You're just
1:08:02blocking me out.
1:08:05Honey, pay the frigin bills. What's the
1:08:08big deal?
1:08:13[sighs]
1:08:14God
1:08:16there. that
1:08:19>> that's what it looked like
1:08:21>> cuz we've all seen it and experienced
1:08:23it. And if you were listening and not
1:08:25watching this episode as Julie was, you
1:08:29know, basically telling him what to do
1:08:32and criticizing him and then the huff at
1:08:34the end is contempt that [snorts]
1:08:36>> Yes.
1:08:37>> Right. Right. that exclamation point of
1:08:41uh you John crossed your arms and looked
1:08:44down and looked away and it is this act
1:08:48of like there's nothing to do. I just
1:08:50need to endure this until she shuts up.
1:08:52>> Right.
1:08:53>> And that's the only option here.
1:08:55>> Yeah. And and also
1:08:59if I say anything it'll get worse.
1:09:02>> Yes.
1:09:02>> It's bad now but if I say anything it
1:09:04I'll make it worse. How the heck do you
1:09:06repair something like that if you're the
1:09:09stonewaller
1:09:10and you've got somebody who's critical
1:09:12of you?
1:09:13>> Okay, like can the stonewaller like can
1:09:16you teach a stonewaller to repair? Cuz a
1:09:18stonewaller does not trust that it's
1:09:21going to get better if I say anything.
1:09:22>> Okay, don't forget
1:09:24>> Yes.
1:09:25>> that what goes along with stonewalling
1:09:27is a heart rate over a 100 beats a
1:09:30minute.
1:09:31>> Oh, true. It looks like you're calm.
1:09:34>> Yeah. Yes, it does. But because John and
1:09:38Bob had g their couples hooked up to
1:09:42physiology that that measured heart
1:09:46rate,
1:09:48we saw those heart rates like through
1:09:50the ceiling 140, 150 and so
1:09:53>> 10 seconds before they started
1:09:55stonewalling. I never ever ever looked
1:09:58at stonewalling
1:10:00as somebody who's panicked and
1:10:03overwhelmed.
1:10:05>> I've always seen this as a power play.
1:10:08>> Yes.
1:10:08>> That you're denying me attention and you
1:10:14are trying to just block me out as a way
1:10:17to control me.
1:10:18>> Exactly.
1:10:20And that is wrong.
1:10:22>> Stonewalling is an attempt to self soo.
1:10:25>> Right. going inside. Okay.
1:10:28She can't touch me when I watch the
1:10:30game. So, the game starts in 10 minutes.
1:10:33I'm going to go watch the game.
1:10:35>> I'll have a beer. I'll calm down.
1:10:37>> Yeah. So, let me tell you
1:10:39>> now. Well,
1:10:41>> yeah. Let me tell you what the antidote
1:10:44is. It's not saying something. Exactly.
1:10:47[gasps]
1:10:48>> The only antidote is to do something to
1:10:52calm your physiology down.
1:10:55Okay, so we've seen the antidote. It is
1:11:01you tell your partner you need to take a
1:11:03break, that you're flooded, you need to
1:11:07take a break, and you tell your partner
1:11:11when you will come back to continue the
1:11:15conversation. And typically, the minimum
1:11:19a break takes is 20 to 30 minutes. the
1:11:23most would be 24 hours. Okay.
1:11:26>> What do you do during the break? You do
1:11:29not think about the fight because if you
1:11:33keep thinking about the fight and oh, I
1:11:35should say this when I go back,
1:11:37>> you'll stay flooded
1:11:39>> because you're still hooked into the
1:11:42fight that is elevating your heart rate.
1:11:46You need to do something else like
1:11:48reading a book, reading a magazine,
1:11:51watching TV, playing with the puppy,
1:11:54even going for a run is fine. Uh taking
1:11:58a walk, doing your email,
1:12:01something that takes your mind off the
1:12:04fight,
1:12:05>> okay?
1:12:06>> So that
1:12:08those stress hormones can metabolize out
1:12:11of your body. You see? So when you feel
1:12:14it's especially hard for guys,
1:12:16>> I would imagine
1:12:17>> because uh you know Bob Levenson did a
1:12:19study of startle. You know you have a
1:12:22gun a blank gun go off behind somebody.
1:12:27>> Women
1:12:29feel fear. Men feel a desire to get even
1:12:36>> get angry.
1:12:37>> Get angry. Get even with the experiment.
1:12:40They feel, you know, an rage about
1:12:43having been startled. And so that
1:12:46maintains the physiological arousal. And
1:12:49it was probably adaptive in our, you
1:12:52know, ancestors time to stay
1:12:56physiologically aroused when you're
1:12:58hunting or protecting the tribe. But
1:13:00during a conversation with your lover,
1:13:04it it's not helpful to stay
1:13:06physiologically aroused. It's
1:13:08counterproductive. can't listen, right?
1:13:10So you So it's a challenge for men
1:13:13during the break to really distract
1:13:15themselves and do something entirely
1:13:18different.
1:13:18>> But the big breakthrough is to utter the
1:13:23words, I am emotionally
1:13:26shut down or I'm emotionally flooded or
1:13:28I'm flooded right now.
1:13:29>> I'm flooded. I'm flooded.
1:13:31>> I'm flooded.
1:13:32>> I need to take a break.
1:13:35>> [snorts]
1:13:35>> And you know the good thing about saying
1:13:39I'll be back in 30 minutes is that a lot
1:13:43of people when you say I'm going to go
1:13:45take a break and they go
1:13:48the other person feels rejected
1:13:51thinks oh great we're never going to get
1:13:54back to this topic we're never going to
1:13:56solve this we're never going to talk
1:13:58about it right
1:13:59>> so saying
1:14:01let's come back in a half an hour when
1:14:03I'm calmer and let's try again
1:14:07makes a huge difference.
1:14:09>> It makes a lot of sense. Why is Can we
1:14:12just move on? Why is that one of the
1:14:14biggest mistakes that you can make after
1:14:17a blowup?
1:14:19>> Flooding, you mean?
1:14:20>> Oh, can we
1:14:20>> just saying that? Can we just move on?
1:14:22>> Oh,
1:14:23>> let's not talk about this.
1:14:24>> Let's not talk about this.
1:14:25>> Oh god, that's so terrible. Well, the
1:14:27problem in the relationship when you
1:14:30say, "Let's just not talk about this
1:14:32anymore."
1:14:34It's another way of saying
1:14:38whatever you're thinking isn't
1:14:40important, so let's just drop it. You're
1:14:43not important.
1:14:45>> What a message, right? It's a terrible
1:14:48message.
1:14:50>> So, tell you, don't do it.
1:14:53>> Yes. I I that is you're absolutely
1:14:57right.
1:14:57>> And then there's a loss of trust,
1:14:59>> right?
1:15:00>> Which is really damaging to the
1:15:02relationship,
1:15:03>> right?
1:15:03>> I can't trust you to really keep your
1:15:06promises
1:15:07>> or be there for me.
1:15:09>> Or be there for me.
1:15:10>> Yeah.
1:15:10>> Yeah.
1:15:11>> Let's talk about turning toward each
1:15:13other. So important. So important. So
1:15:17that's something that that one of my
1:15:19graduate students, Janice Driver, really
1:15:21noticed in the apartment lab. There'd be
1:15:24these small moments when one person
1:15:27would try to get their partner's
1:15:28attention or interest or a conversation
1:15:30or show them something they were reading
1:15:33and the cameras turned to the other
1:15:35person and we recorded the response and
1:15:39they either responded, you know, or, you
1:15:42know, turned toward we called it or they
1:15:45didn't respond at all turning away or
1:15:47they responded irritably turning
1:15:49against. And what Janney discovered was
1:15:53that when you look back at the couples
1:15:55who divorced 6 years earlier, their
1:15:59average percent of turning toward their
1:16:01partners' bids for connection was 33%.
1:16:06And the couples who are still married
1:16:08look six years earlier, their average is
1:16:1186%.
1:16:12>> Wow.
1:16:13>> Rather than 33%. So these small moments
1:16:16are really important. Plus, she also
1:16:18discovered the secret to having a sense
1:16:21of humor during conflict was having a
1:16:24lot of history of turning toward
1:16:27>> building an emotional bank account of
1:16:29connecting,
1:16:30>> right?
1:16:31>> Then people had a sense of humor about
1:16:32themselves during conflict.
1:16:34>> I want to make sure that as you were
1:16:36listening to John say that that you got
1:16:39the very helpful distinction of the
1:16:42three things that people do in those
1:16:44micro moments. And obviously what we
1:16:47want to learn to do, right,
1:16:48>> is turn toward one another.
1:16:50>> Right.
1:16:51>> But the thing that a lot of people do is
1:16:53you either turn away
1:16:55>> or you turn against.
1:16:57>> Right.
1:16:58>> Right.
1:16:58>> And I think it's a very useful tool to
1:17:00ask yourself, am I turning against them
1:17:03when they're trying to hold my hand or
1:17:05engage in a conversation or tell about
1:17:08their day? Am I turning away from them?
1:17:11So what turning away means, a lot of
1:17:14people misinterpret that. They think it
1:17:16means, oh, you turn your body away. No,
1:17:19it doesn't at all. It means you
1:17:23completely ignore what they've said. Oh,
1:17:26>> you ignore it.
1:17:27>> So, [snorts] let's say I'm reading a
1:17:29book and John calls to me from the
1:17:32kitchen, Julie.
1:17:35I ignore him. I keep reading the book.
1:17:39He says again, "Honey, do you know where
1:17:42the big fork is?"
1:17:46I ignore him
1:17:48as if he never said anything. That's
1:17:51turning away.
1:17:52>> Turning against
1:17:55would be, "Would you stop interrupting
1:17:58me? I'm trying to read."
1:18:01>> That's the hostility you see that comes
1:18:04in turning against.
1:18:07>> Wow. They're really small moments, but
1:18:10the probability that a person will rebid
1:18:15>> after their partner's turned away is
1:18:1822%.
1:18:19>> Wow.
1:18:20>> So only 22% of the time do they say,
1:18:23"Honey, where's the fork?" Or, you know,
1:18:26listen to this. They they kind of
1:18:29crumple a little bit when their partner
1:18:31turns away.
1:18:32>> Well, of course.
1:18:33>> Yeah.
1:18:33>> You know what it reminds me of? You know
1:18:36what a sea anemone looks like? You know,
1:18:39it's this little circle of a of a being
1:18:44in the water in the ocean that has
1:18:46little tiny fingers and when it's
1:18:49relaxed, all those fingers are spread
1:18:52out towards the center of this little
1:18:54circle.
1:18:54>> Yeah. Like if you saw the movie Finding
1:18:56Nemo, all the baby nose are in one. Yes.
1:18:59>> Yeah. Exactly. Okay. So if you poke that
1:19:04sea anemone
1:19:06gently all those fingers pull back
1:19:10>> and then very slowly it'll start
1:19:13stretching stretching stretching
1:19:16stretching again
1:19:19let's say you poke again that c anemone
1:19:22is not going to stretch out its fingers
1:19:25it's going to hide
1:19:27>> that's what happens
1:19:28>> good image
1:19:29>> that makes a ton of sense And I would
1:19:31just love to have you speak directly to
1:19:34the person who's been with us this whole
1:19:36time because there's a lot that you have
1:19:38shared. There are so many tools and
1:19:40frameworks, things that you can put to
1:19:42use right now and also things that you
1:19:45can really reflect on in yourself cuz
1:19:48you can't change them.
1:19:51>> You can use these tools to connect more
1:19:53deeply and to strengthen your
1:19:56relationship, but ultimately you can't
1:19:58change them. But a lot of what has
1:20:02happened for me with your work is it's
1:20:04made me understand the things that I'm
1:20:08doing that I need to change that can
1:20:11strengthen the relationship
1:20:14>> and the things that I can proactively do
1:20:17differently that build better
1:20:19connection. And so I'd love to have you
1:20:21just speak to the person directly. And
1:20:24if they take everything to heart, but
1:20:28they want to do one thing
1:20:31right after they finish listening,
1:20:34what's the most important action to take
1:20:36today?
1:20:37>> Well, I would say that [clears throat]
1:20:41when you realize conflict has a goal,
1:20:44which is mutual understanding.
1:20:46And what you need to do is postpone
1:20:49persuasion and problem solving until you
1:20:53can really hear what your partner is
1:20:56saying, what your partner feels, what
1:20:59your partner needs, what your partner's
1:21:01hopes are, and get that notebook out
1:21:05slowly. Open it up. Slowly get your pen
1:21:09out and take notes and listen. Because
1:21:14when you do that, you realize your
1:21:16partner is not your adversary. Your
1:21:18partner is your ally at solving a
1:21:21problem together. You you can be a team
1:21:24that together is more powerful than
1:21:27either person individually and you solve
1:21:30that problem together. So buy a little
1:21:32notebook and a pen and take notes.
1:21:36Slowly get out your pen so you can wait
1:21:39at least two beats before you respond.
1:21:43Well, I cannot wait to listen to this
1:21:45again with my husband Chris. Maybe it's
1:21:48what we'll do on our to celebrate our
1:21:4930th wedding anniversary. And I now know
1:21:52what I'm going to get him.
1:21:53>> I'm going to get him a little notebook.
1:21:55Right. [laughter]
1:21:56>> Right. That's a great idea.
1:21:58>> And you know what?
1:21:59>> And a pen. And a pen. And one of the
1:22:02other things that I really loved about
1:22:04being with you two is that you reminded
1:22:07me of one of my favorite pieces of
1:22:11advice and truths about relationships
1:22:14that really go the distance and are
1:22:16satisfying for both people. And I first
1:22:20heard this from James Ston, but it's
1:22:22just this idea that you're my favorite
1:22:24person.
1:22:25>> Mhm.
1:22:25>> And being [clears throat] in the
1:22:26presence of the two of you and
1:22:29experiencing
1:22:31in person your warmth towards each
1:22:34other, your fondness towards each other,
1:22:38your kindness towards one another, the
1:22:41fun that you have as you are sitting
1:22:46together.
1:22:48It is the little things that are
1:22:50available and right in front of us. And
1:22:53I am so excited to get home to Chris
1:22:56tonight in southern Vermont because I
1:22:59feel rejuvenated in terms of just that
1:23:02that what that energy between you two,
1:23:05the warmth.
1:23:06>> You know, Helen Fischer uh taught us
1:23:09that being in love has no shelf life.
1:23:13You can be in love for 35 years, 40
1:23:16years, 50 years, and we are, you know,
1:23:19and uh I feel enormous joy in the
1:23:23morning when Julie's in my arms.
1:23:27>> Every morning,
1:23:28>> you are going to make me cry. The
1:23:30Gottmans, [laughter] everybody, thank
1:23:32you. Thank you. Thank you.
1:23:34>> Thank you, Mel.
1:23:36>> I just love you, too.
1:23:38>> Thank you.
1:23:38>> Thank you.
1:23:40>> And thank you. You know, I told you at
1:23:42the beginning of this episode you would
1:23:44fall in love with the Gottman's. And
1:23:45didn't you? I mean, how could you not? I
1:23:48am so excited for everything that's
1:23:49going to happen in your relationships
1:23:51and in your life based on what you just
1:23:53learned. Because the truth is, you
1:23:55deserve love. You deserve connection.
1:23:59You deserve respect and kindness. And
1:24:01now you have researchbacked tools from
1:24:04the worldrenowned Gottmans to use and to
1:24:07share for the rest of your life. How
1:24:10cool is that? And in case no one else
1:24:12tells you today, as your friend, I
1:24:14wanted to be sure to tell you that I
1:24:16love you and I believe in you and I
1:24:18believe in your ability to create a
1:24:19better life. And the thing that's going
1:24:21to make your life better is stronger and
1:24:23more loving relationships. And now you
1:24:26have everything you need to know, do,
1:24:28and say to create them. So go do it. All
1:24:31righty. I'll see you in the very next
1:24:33episode. I'll welcome you in the moment
1:24:35you hit play. All righty. Thank you for
1:24:37watching all the way to the end here on
1:24:39YouTube. The next video that you want to
1:24:42check out, you're going to love this one
1:24:43too, is this one.

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