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The Art of True Happiness | Dr. Arthur Brooks — Transcript

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0:00There are three macronutrients to the
0:02happiest life. The happiest people have
0:04enjoyment, satisfaction, and meaning.
0:07Those are the three macronutrients. Now,
0:10that's important because it means you
0:11need to enjoy your life and and you need
0:13to know the difference between enjoyment
0:15and pleasure, which many people don't. I
0:17mean, the pursuit of pleasure is not the
0:19secret to happiness. It's the secret to
0:21rehab. Satisfaction, which is the joy of
0:24an accomplishment or an activity after
0:27struggle. And last but not least is
0:29meaning. The why of your existence. The
0:32happiest people have a bead on those
0:34three things and they pursue those three
0:36things really, really actively. Now,
0:38inside all three of those things,
0:40there's this funny thing called
0:41unhappiness. Inside each of the
0:44macronutrients of happiness, you find
0:46discontent and frustration and a lot of
0:49suffering. If you spend your life, which
0:51many people do today, trying to avoid
0:53unhappiness, trying to avoid and
0:55eliminate suffering, they will
0:57paradoxically miss their own happiness.
0:59Welcome to the Hubberman Lab podcast,
1:01where we [music] discuss science and
1:03science-based tools for everyday life.
1:07[music]
1:08I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor
1:10of neurobiology and opthalmology at
1:13Stanford School of Medicine. My guest
1:15today is Dr. Arthur Brooks. Arthur
1:17Brooks is a professor at Vanderbilt
1:19University and a senior fellow at the
1:21Harvard Business School. Today we
1:23discuss what makes people truly happy
1:25and what this thing we call happiness is
1:27really all about. What I love about
1:29Arthur Brooks and what you'll realize
1:31today is that he looks to experimental
1:32data, philosophy, his and others
1:35experiences to arrive at specific
1:37questions that you can ask yourself to
1:39determine what matters most to you and
1:42what stands in the way of you actually
1:44getting those things. In fact, I must
1:46say this episode with Arthur Brooks is
1:47one of my favorite ever on the Hubberman
1:49Lab podcast. He is brutally honest. He's
1:52open. He's generous with knowledge that
1:54can help you, the listener. And he's
1:56incredibly humble. Thanks to Arthur, the
1:58conversation you're about to hear is one
2:00that I'm confident you'll want to think
2:02about, act on, and come back to
2:04periodically. I can say for myself with
2:06certainty that it's the conversation I
2:08wish I'd heard long ago. Arthur doesn't
2:10have all the answers, nor does he claim
2:12to, but I do think he has a sort of
2:14hardearned compass and a set of maps
2:16that we can all apply to have a much
2:18better and indeed a great life. Before
2:21we begin, I'd like to emphasize that
2:22this podcast is separate from my
2:24teaching and research roles at Stanford.
2:26It is however part of my desire and
2:27effort to bring zero cost to consumer
2:29information about science and science
2:31related tools to the general public. In
2:33keeping with that theme, today's episode
2:35does include sponsors. And now for my
2:37conversation with Dr. Arthur Brooks. Dr.
2:40Arthur Brooks. Welcome.
2:42>> Thank you, Dr. Andrew Huberman.
2:44>> We're only going to call each other
2:45doctor once at the beginning of this
2:46podcast. I'm so happy you're here.
2:48>> Me, too.
2:49>> Yeah. I consider you a friend. And um
2:51>> before we became friends, uh
2:53>> you were already my teacher. I was
2:55learning a ton from you. You have a a
2:57ton of wisdom. before you like step into
2:59your humble self and
3:01>> push aside. I just really want to
3:03highlight that because um that there are
3:05a lot of people influencing, educating,
3:08uh advising, coaching, etc. But uh you
3:12represent like really the the confluence
3:15of of ideas and practices and wisdom in
3:18ways that I and and people can really
3:20understand and benefit from. So really
3:22looking forward to having you here.
3:24>> Thank you. Likewise. I mean, what you've
3:25done over the past now 5 and a half
3:27years with this podcast
3:29>> just about. Yeah.
3:30>> You changed the whole way that educators
3:32can reach a lot of people. What we want
3:35as educators, science in the public
3:37interest. We want to touch people's
3:38lives. We want to lift them up and bring
3:40bring them together using science, using
3:42ideas, and how how how do you do that?
3:45You showed the way because what you did
3:46was you started this podcast within 6
3:48months. It was a big deal. And what you
3:51showed was a whole generation of people
3:53younger and older than you. I'm I'm
3:55older than you, that this is something
3:57that people can do, that we can reach
3:59people. You made that possible. You made
4:01that possible for me. It was an
4:02incredible gift.
4:02>> Oh, well, I'm honored and um thank you.
4:06Um I realized today that perhaps the
4:07toughest part about this conversation is
4:09going to be make sure that I keep you
4:11focused on you a little bit. You're so
4:13humble and uh but I appreciate the kind
4:15words and I consider us colleagues and
4:17friends. So you're known as uh the
4:20happiness guy.
4:21>> You know a lot about it, what it is and
4:22what it isn't.
4:23>> So let's start with um first principles
4:26there that people can really wrap their
4:28head around and apply. Uh what's the
4:31difference between unhappiness and
4:33happiness or is that even the right
4:35model?
4:35>> Yeah, most people start with the wrong
4:38model of what happiness actually is. So
4:42you can't define unhappiness until you
4:43can define happiness. And happiness is
4:45not what most people think. Most people
4:47conceive of happiness as a feeling, as
4:50as an emotion. And that's quite wrong in
4:52the same way that the smell of your
4:54turkey is not the same thing as your
4:55Thanksgiving dinner. The smell of the
4:57turkey is evidence of your Thanksgiving
4:59dinner. And the feelings of happiness
5:00are evidence of happiness. And when I
5:03first came into the field, I mean, I've
5:05been a behavioral scientist for 30
5:06years, but I started specializing in the
5:08science of human happiness exclusively.
5:11I wrote the first book of mine on this
5:13in 2008. But but I decided in 2019 after
5:16I took a hiatus from academia to go run
5:18a big think tank in Washington DC that I
5:20was going to specialize for the rest of
5:22my career in this thing that most people
5:24believe they wanted. I was going to
5:26really make it make it work. And there's
5:28of course happiness. People want to be
5:29happier. And the first thing that I
5:30realized is there wasn't a very good
5:32definition of happiness. It was just so
5:34[snorts] crazy. The thing that everybody
5:36wants, they can't quite define it. Uh, I
5:38can't put words to it, but I know it
5:40when I feel it. This is what I would get
5:42when I would ask my classes. So, what do
5:44you think you're studying? Or it's how I
5:46feel when I'm with the people that I
5:47love or or or doing the things that I
5:49enjoy. And I recognized that this would
5:52be completely inadequate in any other
5:54area of science. And so, I went back to
5:56try to find the right metaphor, the
5:57right parallel field to define
5:59happiness. And I felt that the field of
6:01nutrition did it really well by taking
6:04food and breaking it into macronutrients
6:07and micronutrients. So I asked myself,
6:09okay, what are the macronutrients of
6:11happiness? What are the fundamental
6:13elemental building blocks of happiness?
6:15And to figure that out, you go and you
6:17look at the people who have the highest
6:18life satisfaction that's measured in
6:20robust and proper ways, good construct
6:23validity, good science behind it. And
6:25what you find is doing kind of a factor
6:27analysis is that there are three
6:28macronutrients to the happiest life. The
6:30happiest people have enjoyment,
6:33satisfaction, and meaning. Those are the
6:35three macronutrients. Now, that's
6:38important because it means you need to
6:39enjoy your life. And and you need to
6:41know the difference between enjoyment
6:42and pleasure, which many people don't. I
6:45mean, the pursuit of pleasure is not the
6:47secret to happiness. It's the secret to
6:48rehab, right? And so, so you have to
6:51understand, right? For sure. And uh um
6:55satisfaction, which is the joy of an
6:58accomplishment or an activity after
7:00struggle. And last but not least is
7:02meaning, the why of your existence. The
7:05happiest people have a bead on those
7:07three things and they pursue those three
7:09things really, really actively. Now,
7:11inside all three of those things,
7:13there's this funny thing called
7:14unhappiness.
7:16Inside each of the macronutrients of
7:18happiness, you find discontent and
7:20frustration and a lot of suffering. And
7:23so the first or I should say the second
7:26uh uh misunderstanding about happiness
7:29is that it's incompatible with
7:30unhappiness. It's not. If you spend your
7:33life, which many people do today trying
7:35to avoid unhappiness, trying to avoid
7:37and eliminate suffering, they will
7:39paradoxically miss their own happiness.
7:42So that's the first thing to understand.
7:44Could you drill a little bit deeper into
7:46enjoyment, satisfaction, and meaning?
7:48Yeah. And maybe just put some contour on
7:50each of those. We'll go back to
7:52unhappiness and suffering and how it
7:54relates to all three.
7:55>> For sure. So, so enjoyment um is very
7:58much related to pleasure. But pleasure
8:00is fundamentally a limbic phenomenon. I
8:02mean just if you if you touch in
8:04experiments you've done these you've
8:05seen these experiments forever the the
8:07vententral stratum or the vententral
8:08tegmental area you can get this inc you
8:11can get the stimulation of these parts
8:13of the brain that will give you this
8:14sense of a booleiance this sense of you
8:16know immediate joy from anything from
8:18your girlfriend saying
8:21I love you or a big bump of cocaine not
8:23that you would because the brain is so
8:25unbelievably thrifty right that's not
8:28part of happiness that's a phenomenon
8:31from sort of the place to scene brain
8:34from something the middle place to scene
8:35what 250,000 years ago
8:37>> saying that's rewards you go get more of
8:41that is kind of what it comes down to
8:44>> you don't want to have that as your goal
8:46in life I mean like the hippies used to
8:48say if it feels good do it my dad said
8:50that's the end of America he was kind of
8:52right
8:52>> I think your dad and my dad either were
8:54friends I don't think we have the same
8:55dad but um [laughter]
8:56>> separated from
8:57>> yeah my dad and no disrespect to the
9:00hippies Uh but my dad had very clear
9:02thoughts about how the children of
9:05>> people with that mindset were um at a
9:08disadvantage because of that message
9:10specifically.
9:11>> What will happen of course very quickly
9:12is that your pleasures which are
9:14fundamentally animal I mean your your
9:16your your dog your beautiful new dog
9:19friendly new dog that I just met. He has
9:21a lyic system not that different than
9:23yours and he feels emotions that are not
9:25that different than yours. Right? I mean
9:28this he has amygdala amygdala you know
9:31he has a dorsal anterior singulate
9:32cortex he has a vententral straight I
9:34mean he's got all these different parts
9:36and just kind of like we do but he's not
9:38human
9:39>> because he's managed largely by these
9:41emotions and we have this choice we have
9:44this incredible prefrontal cortex this
9:47this human cortex that's enormous your
9:49dogs is wafer thin ours is like 30% of
9:51the weight of our brain and what that
9:54supercomput allows us to do is to choose
9:56between animal impulses and moral
9:58aspirations. We get to make that choice.
10:01That's a conscious executive choice.
10:04When we convert pleasure into enjoyment,
10:06it's because it takes on moral
10:09aspiration to it. We take our pleasures
10:11and we add people and memory, thereby
10:14kind of delivering them to an an
10:16executive experience that we're
10:17managing, that we we understand, that
10:19we're conscious of, that we can
10:20remember, and that's fundamentally
10:22social. It's quintessentially human. As
10:25a matter of fact, that's what it's all
10:26about. So I, you know, I talk to my
10:28students and
10:29>> who are graduate students or 28 years
10:31old on average and my and my kids who
10:33are 28, 26, and 23.
10:35>> You know, what does this mean? And and
10:38for most people, what it means is if
10:39there's something that makes you feel
10:41good, cuz we all have our thing, whether
10:43it's highly glycemic carbohydrates or
10:45any kind of addictive behavior. And in
10:48point of fact, it can be
10:50dependenceprovoking, which many things
10:52can. and they when they when they're
10:53when they when they wire into the
10:55dopamine system. You've talked about
10:56this ad at Nauseium so many times. I've
10:58heard you talk about this. If you're
11:00doing it alone, you're probably doing it
11:01wrong. Probably it's uh it's probably
11:04more about pleasure and less
11:06[clears throat] about enjoyment. It's
11:07not a perfect rule. I like to walk in
11:08the woods by myself and say my prayers,
11:10but those things aren't addictive.
11:12>> And so that that's how to how to how to
11:14think about it. You need to enjoy your
11:16life. And that means there there are
11:18things that give you pleasure at a at a
11:21metaphysical or physical level, but they
11:23also have people in memory and you're
11:25managing them and they're not managing
11:26you. So that's kind of the in a nutshell
11:29how I think about enjoyment. Now many
11:31people are bad at that, especially
11:33stvers. Who who listens to your podcast?
11:36People who are serious about their
11:37lives. There's nobody who's like, "Ah,
11:38whatever. Who's going to listen to your
11:40podcast?
11:40>> We're not a whatever podcast.
11:42>> You're a Strivever podcast.
11:43>> We should do a title card sometime. How
11:45to whatever."
11:45>> Yeah. I know it won't go very well April
11:48Fool's episode.
11:49>> I know, right? This is not one of those
11:50podcasts.
11:51>> You had guys like me on, right?
11:53>> And and what strivvers, one of the
11:55things they often struggle with if
11:56they're very very very uh uh um
11:59competitive, if they're ambitious, if
12:00they're successful, is that they want to
12:03be special more than they want to be
12:05happy. And so they want to put points on
12:07the board. And if it's not putting
12:08points on the board, they're not going
12:10to do it. And these are the people that
12:11I have to work with to be to to work on
12:13the macronutrient enjoyment. Is there
12:16fear that were they to
12:19>> enjoy life more, be happier, I'm
12:21probably using these terms incorrectly,
12:23that somehow they would lose their drive
12:25because as you were describing
12:27enjoyment, satisfaction, and meaning and
12:29by the way, I love this
12:31>> uh description of enjoyment as you know,
12:33we we have animal impulses and then but
12:35then there's this other end of the
12:37spectrum which are moral aspirations.
12:39Wouldn't at least some component of a
12:42great life be to marry those two things
12:44so that your pursuit of of these animal
12:47impulses actually raised you up morally?
12:50I mean that's the ultimate I mean we
12:51have so many examples now in the media
12:53of of uh prominent politicians in
12:56particular with all the elections going
12:58on where their careers [clears throat]
13:00are tanked. I do believe they might have
13:03been trying to be good people on
13:05average, but they they temptation ruined
13:09that career anyway. Totally. Totally.
13:10And so it's clear it exists in them and
13:12and in many in everyone, right? But the
13:15fact that that can happen to
13:17>> it's almost feels like a a misuse of the
13:20animal impulse.
13:21>> Yeah.
13:22>> Is there a a way to marry uh animal
13:25impulse to moral aspiration in a way
13:27that's seamless or does it always work?
13:29>> No. No. You you have just defined
13:31enjoyment. Proper enjoyment is one where
13:34you are you're doing what you what you
13:36think is prudent and natural and good to
13:38do. It's something that you want to see
13:40yourself doing and at the same time is
13:42pleasurable.
13:44>> You know, that's why that the best
13:46moments over the course of my 35 year
13:49marriage are highly pleasurable and
13:51extremely enjoyable. M and it's the kind
13:53of thing where I could get, you know,
13:55found out by the press that I'm having
13:58another beautiful night with Esther.
14:00[laughter] You know, that's good is what
14:02it comes down to. And and the truth is
14:04we all struggle with these things
14:06because we are biological creatures. You
14:08know, I'm fundamentally a a behavioral
14:10scientist, but psychology is biology.
14:12One of the things I've had to retrain in
14:14so many of these areas, especially over
14:16the past 10 years, is because the
14:18biology has become so salient in our
14:21field. And one of the things that you
14:22find is that the the trouble that people
14:24actually have is when animal impulse and
14:26moral aspiration go in different
14:28directions. And one of the great
14:29strategies for life is how to point them
14:32in the same direction.
14:33>> How to and and sometimes you have to
14:35choose.
14:36>> Sometimes you have to choose and and
14:37people feel like it's I should you know
14:40if it feels good it must be good for me.
14:42But that's have the and so I'm going to
14:44do it. That's having the same life goals
14:45as prozzoa or something you know.
14:48>> Or if it feels bad it must be bad for
14:49me. And there probably a lot of things
14:51that people should could benefit from
14:53doing that are going to feel quote
14:55unquote painful in the process.
14:57>> Now we're in the gym. I'm I'm a gym rat.
14:58So are you.
14:59>> Do you do you like training? I like
15:01training. I
15:01>> I really do like training. But it's a
15:03funny thing because when leg day I still
15:06want to throw up. I've been in the gym
15:09almost every day for 30 years.
15:11>> Wow.
15:12>> And and you're in great shape, by the
15:13way. It's obvious to anyone watching,
15:15but you know what? I feel good.
15:16>> Is it okay to share? You're 62.
15:18>> 62 years old. Yeah.
15:20years old. Yeah. And and it's and you
15:22know, I've got genetics that keep me
15:24really lean. So, it's not like it's any
15:25any flex that I can stay at, you know,
15:2810% body fat or something like that.
15:29That's not that's just that's just
15:32nature. But the truth is I I I really I
15:35recognize that that I I need to keep the
15:37machine in good shape because the brain
15:40is part of the machine. And as we both
15:42know, hard exercise, picking up heavy
15:45things and and and running around is
15:47fundamental to affect management and
15:49also to the maintenance of the overall
15:51functioning of how the machine works. I
15:52don't want to fall prey to, you know,
15:55type three diabetes, which is what we're
15:57calling Alzheimer's these days. I don't
15:59want metabolic disorders that are that
16:00are avoidable. So, I actually I do that.
16:02Now, leg day sucks, man. I mean, I've
16:05been doing leg day every fourth day for
16:08four for 30 years, and I still don't
16:10like it. I would still skip leg day.
16:12Every day would be chest day because
16:14everybody likes chest day, right?
16:16Because it feels better. But the truth
16:17is that I do it because I actually know
16:19how the muscle protein synthesis works.
16:21I know that for hormone balance, leg day
16:23is the most important day for these
16:25really large muscle groups. And and and
16:27what am I doing? I'm making the decision
16:30to do something that foregoes my my
16:32comfort, my pleasure, even a moment of
16:34my happiness for the moral aspiration
16:36that I actually have. And and that leads
16:38to this important conclusion from the
16:40research in this area, which is that
16:42mother nature
16:44doesn't care if you're happy. This is
16:47it's you know, we all think it's like if
16:48I'm not happy, then something's not
16:50right. No, no, it might very well be not
16:54right. You know, there there all kinds
16:55of suffering that you actually need to
16:57grow a as a person. You need negative
17:00emotions because negative emotions are
17:02an alarm system that show that your
17:04reptilian brain has has has registered
17:07signals sending these signals to your
17:09lyic system and and and and setting off
17:12alarms in, you know, from sadness and
17:14anger and disgust and fear.
17:16>> That's unpleasant, but that doesn't mean
17:18anything's wrong. It means everything's
17:19right. How you react to it can be how
17:23you want to in so doing have a better
17:25having a better life notwithstanding the
17:26fact that it doesn't feel good. And
17:28that's a life of discipline. That's a
17:30life of of the kind of behavior that you
17:32actually want. That's worth moral
17:34aspiration.
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20:39to get up to 27% off. I've got this
20:42statement that um you just mentioned
20:45like ringing in my ears in in the best
20:48way, which is that you're saying uh this
20:50moral aspiration piece is uh has a lot
20:53to do with or reflects doing uh what you
20:56want to see yourself doing. I really
20:58like that because I think for many
21:00people um they want to see themselves
21:04doing things that others would approve
21:06of, right?
21:07>> And from a young age we're told what we
21:09should do and why,
21:10>> right? You need to like get dressed up
21:13for this event or you need to, you know,
21:15sit up certain way, eat a certain way,
21:18be polite and these things which are all
21:20important parts of our training, right,
21:23as humans,
21:23>> right? But there's something really
21:25special that happens when we as you
21:27pointed out when we see ourselves doing
21:29something and it feels good and we it's
21:31a positive self-reflection of the
21:34non-egotistical kind.
21:36>> Right. And I don't think we
21:39>> talk enough about this because there's
21:41so much out there now about how social
21:43media is all about comparisons. So
21:45people are showing other people here's
21:46what I'm doing. But there's a different
21:48version of that where somebody does
21:49something that they're proud of and puts
21:51it to the internet and they're seeing
21:54themselves do something that they're
21:55proud of and they get the feedback and
21:58>> you know provided that their ego is in
22:01check and they don't let the positive
22:02comments go to their head or set them up
22:04for disappointment when they don't get
22:05as many of them the next time. All
22:07things that are wired into those
22:08reinforcement circuits.
22:10>> I think that's great. They're seeing
22:11themselves
22:13>> exercising. Oh, by the way, it could be
22:15painting. It could be time with family.
22:17It could be being in volunteer and
22:19service. And we tend to look at that
22:20stuff and say, "Oh, you know, they're
22:22just doing the display." So my
22:25>> question is to really get the ideal
22:28match between this uh animal impulse and
22:30and moral aspirations piece that we see
22:33ourselves and experience ourselves doing
22:35what we want to see ourselves doing and
22:37that we not share it because I'm open to
22:39the idea that the sharing diminishes it
22:41somehow.
22:41>> It can. [clears throat] Yeah,
22:42>> it can. But fundamentally, I think it's
22:45actually quite important that you
22:47declare what your moral aspirations are.
22:49And part of the reason is because this
22:51gives you a commitment bias. So there's
22:53a lot of behavioral science about that.
22:54A lot of psychology that actually talks
22:56about commitments bias when you say,
22:57"Here's the thing that I'm actually
22:59going to do. I'm going to finish my
23:00PhD." Right?
23:01>> This is a big part of weddings. I
23:03attended a lot of weddings. And it's
23:04kind of an amazing thing, this wedding
23:06ceremony.
23:07>> Yeah. Makes you path dependent toward
23:09your own aspirations. people stand up
23:10and give a bunch of really amazing
23:12promises in front of all their friends
23:14and then they get a bunch of gifts and
23:16that there I'm not cynical about this at
23:17all like from a reward pathway
23:19perspective it's like you're rewarding
23:21the promises that they're making in
23:23addition to the union that they're in
23:24right then a lot of the reward is like
23:27you're giving them things for their life
23:28going forward sadly I have a number of
23:30friends who've been divorced and they
23:32depending on how long ago the wedding
23:34was
23:34>> they often feel quite sheepish about all
23:36the gifts like what they got all these
23:38gifts for the promises they made. Now
23:40they've changed their mind,
23:42>> right?
23:42>> Some cases broken those promises, but
23:44they've changed their mind, right? It's
23:46not till death do us part. It's now
23:48until it got inconvenient enough that
23:50we're going to part ways. And
23:52>> it's an incredible still occurring kind
23:56of ancient display of promising
23:59publicly, I'm not going to quit.
24:02>> Yeah. No, totally. This is this is my
24:04person through thick and thin, through
24:07sickness and in health and all the
24:08things that you actually talk about.
24:10You're actually talking in the in the
24:11wedding promises. You're saying it's
24:13going to suck sometimes.
24:15>> That's what you're saying. I mean, it's
24:16like richer and poorer and we're going
24:20to stick this thing out despite the fact
24:21that we're we're stating right up front
24:24that there's going to be times of
24:25poverty, there's going to be times of
24:26sickness, there's going to be there's
24:27going to be trouble ahead. And that's
24:29basically saying that happiness has
24:31unhappiness in it. I'm defining
24:34happiness. How am I defining happiness?
24:36That I'm going to get 80, 90 years and
24:39as I take my dying breath, I'm going to
24:41be looking. I'm like donote and this is
24:43my dulin. And I'm going to be I'm going
24:46to be looking into her eyes as I as I
24:49recite the holy scriptures and take my
24:51dying breath. That's basically what
24:53you're saying. And you're defining that
24:54as your bliss. I mean, if it weren't
24:56your bliss, you'd be like, "Why are you
24:58doing it? I want it." Because that's a
25:00good life. That's what you're stating.
25:02and you're and and you're laying out
25:03what actually happiness looks for and
25:06you're saying it's going to be full of
25:07unhappiness. That's what you're saying
25:09and that's the thing for people to
25:11understand that that's what it comes
25:13down to when you are laying out publicly
25:16your moral commitments when you're
25:18actually saying this. What you're saying
25:20is you're recognizing that happiness and
25:22unhappiness are intertwined and you want
25:24the full you're basically saying bring
25:26it on.
25:27>> It's like courage. Mhm.
25:29>> It's a declaration of of your
25:31independence from the world and your
25:34dependence on each other, which is a
25:35beautiful thing. It's what you do when
25:37you're publicly baptized as an adult.
25:39Anytime that you're taken into a new
25:41religion, there's always these
25:42commitments about these moral
25:44aspirations that you're making.
25:46Recognizing, yeah, sometimes this is
25:48going to go contrary to my animal
25:50impulses. Absolutely. And you know, this
25:51is one of the things that I love about
25:53sort of the modern internet culture.
25:54There's a lot to regret. There's a lot
25:56that you and I look at like, oh man, you
25:58know, but the other thing I really
26:00really like is it's facilitated this
26:03wholesale movement of aspiration for
26:06excellence.
26:08>> A lot of people they want to be
26:09excellent,
26:10>> you know, it's like I so this isn't just
26:13the heroin podcast is not just
26:14entertainment, high class entertainment.
26:16People want an edge. They want to know,
26:18you know, why why are they so attracted
26:21to the protocols? Protocols toward what?
26:22Toward being better. They want to be
26:24more successful. They want to be better
26:27liked. They want things to go better for
26:29them. That's a that's a human drive for
26:31excellence. And when people can finally
26:33make peace with the fact that your
26:35animal impulses will not gen will not
26:39always and frequently not lead you to
26:42excellence, then you can finally be
26:44free. Do you think that a lot of the
26:46friction out there um politically uh
26:50socially is basically about drawing the
26:54line between what is animal impulse and
26:57what is moral aspiration?
26:59>> I mean I don't want to take us too far
27:01down.
27:01>> Tell me more. What do you mean?
27:02>> I mean some of the animal impulses are
27:05obvious, right? Um, and they're all for
27:07the neurobiologists, we would say
27:08they're very like limbic, hypothalamic,
27:09right?
27:10>> But, you know, some people would say,
27:13okay, like here's the quote unquote
27:15traditional model of marriage and um and
27:19morality.
27:20>> Yeah.
27:20>> And some people would say actually we
27:22want to kind of bend that a certain way
27:23where um people could have quote unquote
27:26unconventional relationships or
27:27unconventional families or I mean I
27:29think everyone would agree that lie
27:31lying, cheating, and stealing is bad.
27:33Right.
27:34>> Right. But there's a an attempt, I
27:36think, to draw a kind of jagged line
27:37between moral and immoral that, you
27:40know, certain things that are not of
27:44biblical traditional morality are okay
27:47because as long as they're done
27:49consensually and in the and in the name
27:50of love.
27:51>> Right.
27:52>> Right. And we're not talking about
27:53breaking laws here, although some people
27:55really push this to the extreme, but
27:56that's not what I'm talking about.
27:57That's that's
27:58>> and I'm staying off specific issues not
28:01not to be like politically careful here
28:03but just because I feel like a lot of it
28:05is like where are we going to draw the
28:06line between limbic and higher order in
28:09fact it gets it actually gets inverted
28:11where people will say no that the more
28:13evolved way of thinking is past all that
28:15where you can really get beyond this
28:18this this very uh you know black and
28:22white morality and really say no there's
28:25all sorts of versions of of what uh
28:27love, family, marriage, commitment, um
28:30child rearing could look like.
28:32>> Conscious pilot. What is truth?
28:33>> Right.
28:34>> Right. It's very postmodern.
28:35>> Yeah, it is very postmodern. But I think
28:37that I mean I feel like
28:40>> this is that like people are pulling
28:41back and forth on this line just like in
28:43science people are trying to say the
28:44scientists and doctors that are all you
28:47know uh traditional scientists and and
28:49physicians they have the knowledge and
28:51then the general components of the
28:52general public are saying actually
28:54during the pandemic you lied you know
28:56like a teenager following their and like
28:58you need to admit you lied and then
28:59they're like I didn't lie you know you
29:01know and so there's just trying to pull
29:02back we have the torture of truth no we
29:04have the torture of truth and of course
29:05>> there are elements of truth on
29:08But with this in this case it's sort of
29:10>> I think at the extremes we all
29:11understand murder is bad right lying
29:13cheating stealing bad right but then
29:16what constitutes a a moral aspiration
29:19>> right
29:20>> to one camp is actually a moral insult
29:23>> right
29:23>> and vice versa
29:24>> so John height you've had him on the
29:25show right yes John height's great and
29:27John I height and I go way back we go
29:29back to the early part of the 21st
29:31century so and John heighten are just
29:33the same age and and we've had these
29:34sort of parallel careers writing about
29:36about science of human happiness. The
29:38guy's a visionary. He's probably the
29:42greatest social scientist of our
29:43generation.
29:44>> Wow.
29:44>> He's that great. I mean, it's he's
29:46unbelievable. He wrote book a book about
29:48moral foundations. And he talked about
29:51the fact that there are two moral
29:53foundations that everybody has in
29:55common, and that's care and fairness.
29:57Care for others and fairness. Now, we
30:00define those things differently. I mean,
30:01what does care mean? Does the care mean
30:03giving everybody, you know, taking care
30:05of them at the base level or does it
30:07mean everybody gets an apartment and
30:08free groceries? I mean, you figure out
30:10what that means.
30:11>> And that uh that's a legitimate argument
30:13about, you know, what it means. Fairness
30:14is really really different, especially
30:16between political polls where one side
30:19is about redistributive fairness and the
30:21other side is about meritocratic
30:22fairness. You know, what fairness
30:23actually means, but everybody wants a
30:25fair and caring society and you believe
30:27that you should be fair as a parent. You
30:29should care for your kids. Then what he
30:31shows empirically with his work which no
30:33doubt has a huge neurobiological basis
30:35and I'm sure has a huge genetic basis as
30:38well because these personality
30:39characteristics generally do are usually
30:41between in the in the identical twin
30:43studies it's usually 40 to 80% genetic
30:45all the aspects of personality which is
30:47super interesting in and of it in of
30:49itself is that there's three elements of
30:51morality that are very different between
30:55the political polls. They are loyalty,
30:57purity and authority. And so loyalty is
31:00like flag burning is bad, right? You
31:04know, I come from a very progre mostly
31:06progressive family, politically
31:08progressive family. And and if I asked
31:10somebody, you know, from my family of
31:11origin, what do you think about flag
31:12burning? They'd be like inadvisable,
31:15right? As opposed to morally evil,
31:17right? Soft answer.
31:18>> Yeah. When it comes, right? And the
31:20second is is is loyalty, you know,
31:23loyalty to tribe. And what you find is
31:26that people who are more on the
31:27politically conservative side, they have
31:28a different sense of loyalty. Loyalty
31:30towards sports teams. So you find that
31:32when you in these interesting studies
31:34that you go into a political
31:35conservatives office and you'll find
31:37like a a sports poster where for
31:40political liberals office, you're very
31:42very much less likely to find this is
31:44what you find. And then of course this
31:46what what it where it really has teeth
31:47is toward you know national identity.
31:49you know, where you're loyal toward
31:50national my it's like my country right
31:53or wrong which is one of the reasons you
31:55find such a strong political
31:57prepoundonderance of one side in the
31:58military forces in the American military
32:01as opposed to the other not to say that
32:02one side's right or wrong but that's
32:04just you know how it comes down height
32:06would say that's that's a difference in
32:08moral foundations and the last that you
32:10were really touching on here is purity
32:12is moral purity and the moral purity is
32:15about in for example in sexual matters
32:18is very very profound, you know, and so,
32:21you know, there's a there's a you know,
32:22I've seen a bumper sticker in San
32:23Francisco that says, "Your body may be a
32:26temple, but mine is an amusement park,
32:29right? It's funny in its way, right?"
32:32But what that is basically saying,
32:33>> it's very it's very what I would call
32:35because I'm from the Bay Area, sort of
32:37uh old older San Francisco like circa
32:40'7s to now. Now there's a there's a kind
32:43of a growing conservative movement
32:45somewhat tucked into the tech community
32:47although you find a mix of both.
32:49>> You find a mix of both too but it's kind
32:51of a libertine thing
32:52>> where libertarianism and libertinism
32:55diverge which is a really interesting
32:56boundary too is what you find but that
33:00actually describes those differences are
33:02you know so so you know each side will
33:03say the other side is immoral. No
33:05they're differently moral and you decide
33:07you know which you think is right. And
33:09if you tell me in a structured survey
33:12what you think is right on those
33:14particular issues, I have a very high
33:16degree of certitude in in guessing how
33:18you vote,
33:19>> actually. Now, some people are in these
33:21weird things. You can be in kind of a
33:23you can be a political conservative, but
33:25a cultural liberal,
33:27>> right? Those aren't very many people,
33:28but you do find them. They tend to be
33:30the political libertarians. As a matter
33:31of fact,
33:32>> it's fascinating because ultimately here
33:34we're talking about um drawing
33:36boundaries between different brain
33:37areas. At least that's what the
33:39neurobiologist in me thinks. But um
33:42>> I mean obviously
33:43>> politics, laws and behavior matters a
33:47lot.
33:47>> It really matters because ultimately
33:49people can say all sorts of things about
33:51what they believe, what they want to be,
33:52but
33:53>> we are ultimately judged on what we do.
33:56>> And I think we probably judge ourselves
33:58on the basis of what we do or ideally we
34:00would we would look at that. Let's talk
34:02a little bit about
34:04>> we've gone through one macronutrient,
34:05>> right? One macronutrient. What exercises
34:08do you suggest to um students to start
34:12to explore their own relationship
34:14between animal impulse and moral
34:17aspiration?
34:18>> Yeah. So, one of the things that I talk
34:20about is is how they understand leisure.
34:25>> So, leisure is what you do and they're
34:27not compensating you for in the time
34:29that's actually free. How you understand
34:31leisure. M so and and the greatest
34:35writer about this is Yseph Peeper the
34:37the mid 20th century German philosopher
34:40his most important book was leisure the
34:42basis of culture that's his most
34:44inflecting it's actually a long essay
34:46>> it's very very beautiful he says I can
34:48tell you everything you need to know
34:48about a culture by how they actually use
34:51leisure
34:51>> interesting
34:52>> he doesn't want to know what you do for
34:53money he wants to know how you use your
34:56time when nobody's paying you that's
34:58because he says that's what reflects who
35:00you actually
35:02That's why I never liked the Oh, you can
35:03tell by the books on somebody's shelf
35:05cuz books on somebody's shelf doesn't
35:06mean they actually read those books
35:07first.
35:08>> They own those books,
35:09>> right? Exactly. Many people own my books
35:11who haven't read them.
35:12>> Well, I've spent some time with it. I
35:14still need to pour through it uh again,
35:17but uh
35:17>> can't wait to wait to read Protocols, by
35:19the way.
35:20>> It's Oh, thanks. If nothing else,
35:22Protocols Will Cure Insomnia. The thing
35:23is almost 600 pages long. Thank you. Um
35:26I Your book's awesome and I I I spent
35:29some time with it. I want to spend more
35:30time with it. Um, in part because it
35:32marries theory with practical steps and
35:35prompts, not AI prompts, but the kind of
35:37prompts to really give oneself. So, this
35:39thing about leisure is fascinating.
35:41>> Yeah, leisure is really interesting.
35:42It's like that that tells you what you
35:43need to know about a culture, but also
35:45about a person in a way. And so, if you
35:48find somebody who's using their leisure
35:50time to meet animal appetites, that's
35:52one thing. if they're actually using it
35:54to for for personal betterment for
35:57personal betterment not career
35:59betterment not for the compensation
36:00actually comes from the worldly rewards
36:02there's four worldly rewards money power
36:05pleasure and honor and if you're doing
36:07something such that it doesn't reward
36:09you in one of those areas that actually
36:11comes from Aristotle and Aquinus etc
36:14then you're actually doing what he would
36:15call proper leisure you're doing proper
36:17leisure toward you know moral aspiration
36:20which is ultimately the most rewarding
36:22thing That's ultimately what will take
36:24you from the world of pleasure into the
36:25world of enjoyment and give you greater
36:26happiness. That's the theory and it's
36:28and it's it's actually been verified a
36:31lot in a lot of these ideas the best
36:34questions they come from the
36:35philosophers and then and then the
36:36structural mechanisms come from
36:38neuroscience and then the testing of
36:40these ideas comes from the behavioral
36:41sciences right the the experiments etc.
36:44Then of course applying them to your
36:45life is a different kettle of fish. And
36:47so what he says is that there's kind of
36:49three areas that make proper leisure and
36:52ultimate enjoyment. You want me to tell
36:54you the
36:55>> please. Okay.
36:56>> Number one is deepening relationships on
36:59purpose, man. I mean on purpose. And so
37:01leisure is this weekend I'm envisioning
37:05myself
37:07not touching my phone while I'm with my
37:09wife, right? Deepening my relationship,
37:12being fully present for my wife. and and
37:15I'm going to go someplace not because I
37:16want to chill on the beach, but because
37:18I want to be on the beach with the love
37:20of my life. So, deepening relationships
37:22on purpose with, you know, a real focus
37:24on that. The second is learning
37:26something you don't need to learn. And
37:28the third is actually developing
37:30yourself metaphysically. Is your
37:32spiritual, your religious life, or your
37:33philosophical life is is to transcend
37:36what's going on here for for no other
37:38reason than the fact that you seek
37:39transcendence. Those are the three areas
37:40of proper leisure. And that's how he
37:42would say, "I know that you're going
37:45from pleasure to enjoyment." That's how
37:46I know by based on what you're doing,
37:49even though you don't have to.
37:50>> I love this. I'll tell you several of
37:53the reasons why I love it. One is um
37:56people from time to time will say, "What
37:57do you do for fun?"
37:58>> I know.
37:59>> It's a very difficult question for me to
38:00answer because people
38:02>> But your work is fun, by the way.
38:03>> My work is so much fun. Like I'm reading
38:05this book about sunlight and how the
38:07dermatology world is revising their
38:09understanding about sun and skin cancer
38:11and um and I'm loving that. I love my I
38:15mean I could I could list it off but I I
38:16just say those things to just get people
38:18to think about what what they enjoy
38:20doing.
38:21>> But the word that you know keeps coming
38:23up in my mind because I have a hard time
38:25with the fun thing because yeah I do
38:27other things that are purely
38:28recreational is
38:30>> this word enrichment. I mean it sounds
38:32kind of you know uh you know like
38:35somebody's trying to be an academic when
38:37they say like like what do you do for
38:40enrichment? It doesn't it's not it's not
38:41as natural a question these days as like
38:43what do you do for fun it's like what do
38:44you do for your own enrichment it it it
38:47reshapes the question a little bit
38:49because the implication is it's not just
38:50about immediate pleasure
38:52>> which fun kind of
38:54>> kind of falls into the group of pleasure
38:55>> personal excellence.
38:56>> Yeah. you come out of you come out of it
38:58better,
38:59>> right?
38:59>> Not just for having exper experienced
39:02the the whatever it was the activity
39:04was, but like there's something carried
39:06forward into other things that you do
39:08and in a good way. And so the word
39:10enrichment, you know, feels good. It's
39:11the reason why even though I was in the
39:12sciences as an undergraduate, I you
39:14know, decided to take a course in Greek
39:16mythology and like loved it. Loved loved
39:18loved it.
39:18>> Was leisure
39:19>> and and it turns out it was neuroscience
39:20too, right? [laughter] You know, years
39:22later, like we talk about, you know, the
39:23myth of the cyclops is all about anger
39:25and it has everything to do with the
39:26lack of depth perception that when you
39:28have one eye versus two eyes. It turns
39:30out like the Greeks like really
39:31understood stereopsis and depth
39:33perception there. I couldn't help
39:34myself. In any case,
39:36>> that's interesting.
39:37>> So, like this notion of enrichment and
39:39and I love that in the example you gave
39:41of going to the beach uh with a friend
39:43or with a spouse or someone else you
39:45care about. It's not about your own
39:47experience of it. You said because not
39:49just because you want to be there, but
39:51because you're actually there. That's a
39:54that's a physical grounds for creating
39:56something else. So, it's not really
39:58about the beach. It's about what you
40:00leave the beach with. That's right. And
40:01it's not just memories of the beach. You
40:03actually both change as a consequence of
40:06being there. Maybe in small ways, maybe
40:07in big ways,
40:08>> but you you've enriched the
40:10relationship. And so, the beach becomes
40:12incidental. When people talk about
40:15wanting to go out drinking, what I want
40:17to know is is it about the drinking or
40:18is it the people you're drinking with?
40:19That's what it comes down to. Now, I I
40:21strongly recommend that people
40:23reconsider that decision. I mean, I've
40:25heard you two drinks a week is the safe
40:27level. I've got it, Andrew. I've got it.
40:29>> Yeah. More than that, it's probably not
40:30a good idea for most people.
40:31>> I'm at zero. You know, I'm I'm a
40:34non-drinker. Um because it's the right
40:36it's the right cadence for my life. But,
40:37you know, people who do use alcohol
40:39responsibly, I'm not I wish I were a
40:41person who could use alcohol
40:42responsibly. I'm not right. So, so I
40:45don't and I don't use it at all. But,
40:47you know, when people say I'm going to
40:48go out drinking, I mean, I I I don't
40:50know if that's pleasure or enjoyment. I
40:52don't know if that's animal impulse or
40:54moral aspiration. I need more
40:56information. I need to know the reason
40:58for that. When people are talking about
41:00getting a beach house, I'm going to get
41:02a beach house. I don't know whether or
41:04not that's animal impulse to towards
41:06social comparison toward actually a a
41:10scoreboard effect so I can actually feel
41:12like I mean something. That's all animal
41:14impulse. All it is that's just like your
41:16trogodite brain actually saying you're
41:18not
41:19>> you're not good enough unless you have a
41:20beach house like old Bill over there at
41:22the office, right? But on the other
41:24hand, if you tell me it's like I I got
41:25to create bait so that my kids and
41:27grandkids are here a lot. Okay, now I'm
41:29listening. Now I'm actually paying
41:31attention. And so a lot of things that
41:33people will say, I I need a little bit
41:34more information such that I can
41:36categorize it in the right way. Whether
41:38or not we're on the right side, we're on
41:40the animal impulse side or the moral
41:41aspiration side, whether we're on the
41:43pleasure side or the enjoyment side,
41:44whether it's actually going to bring
41:45happiness. I'm pausing um because I I
41:50have so many questions about this, but I
41:52want to make sure we touch on the other
41:54macronutrients because otherwise I I'm
41:56going to um
41:57>> I'm going to encourage you to give a a
41:59tutorial on how to really uh maximize
42:02every single choice in not just my life,
42:04listeners,
42:05>> enjoyment protocols. We should have
42:06leisure protocols.
42:08>> Absolutely. Absolutely. you know the we
42:10all know that like one of the major
42:11pillars is social connection and
42:12relationships but
42:14>> the idea that leisure is is part of
42:16that.
42:17>> Yeah.
42:18>> Uh as a substrate for enriching those is
42:20obvious once we hear it
42:22>> but it reframes everything. if um
42:24exercising with somebody, you know,
42:26turns out to be a way you deepen the
42:28relationship, which actually has been my
42:30experience with a lot of male friends,
42:31frankly. Like,
42:32>> yeah, totally.
42:32>> One of the best ways to get to know
42:34somebody in my experience is to have an
42:36intellectual conversation with them,
42:37like really deep dive with them or to go
42:39do something difficult. Yeah. Yeah.
42:41[laughter] Yeah. Rob, our produ producer
42:43and close close friend, he's sitting to
42:45my left right now. I mean, one of the
42:46first things we ever did was like go for
42:48a run where he kicked my butt.
42:49>> And by the way, a Vanderbilt graduate.
42:51Very pleased.
42:53places that [snorts]
42:54>> Yeah. And um I don't recommend people
42:56box, but years ago I boxed and I'd spar
42:58on Wednesday nights. Don't recommend it.
42:59Yes, I wore headgear. Yes, I probably
43:01took some damage. I don't recommend it.
43:03Um but you feel so close to people that
43:06you've actually tried to hurt and they
43:09tried to hurt you, but with rules
43:11>> in it's a it's an amazing it's very
43:13primitive and yet you there's a bond
43:15there that is obviously nonverbal. It's
43:18a lifelong bond. you see that person the
43:20next time and it's a like
43:22>> especially if they played fair and they
43:24hurt you. Yeah. You're like,
43:26>> "Yeah, like we know one another. I've
43:28seen you, you know, there's a respect
43:31level." I'm not suggesting people do
43:33this, but
43:34>> you added people in memory to a strong
43:36experience, thus rendering it enjoyable
43:38and being part of happiness. Yeah. In in
43:40point of fact, it wasn't strictly
43:42>> pleasurable, but that wasn't exactly the
43:44point.
43:44>> No.
43:44>> Yeah.
43:45>> No. The point was to to suffer together
43:47in some way. There's a great book by a
43:49guy named Sam Sheridan uh called A
43:50Fighter's Heart. He's actually a Harvard
43:52grad.
43:52>> Yeah.
43:52>> I think he was an art major there. His
43:54dad was a Navy Seals. Very interesting
43:56guy. And he has this joke that you know
43:58uh
43:59>> you know that sparring is like a
44:01>> it's like a one night stand or
44:03something. You you've like done
44:04something very intimate with someone you
44:05barely know. And so it has both a
44:08feeling of connection but it's also the
44:10illusion of connection.
44:11>> So he hits it better than I did. Don't
44:13run around and start sparring with your
44:14friends. Well, the military why it has
44:16it creates such, you know, bonds for
44:18life. I mean, my son's my son is a
44:19sniper, scout sniper in the US Marine
44:21Corps, and these are friends for life. I
44:23mean, these are guys who would literally
44:25give their lives for each other, who
44:26looked out for each other in very, very
44:28dangerous situations. And they were
44:29suffering together. Now, the word
44:31compassion in Latin means to suffer
44:33together.
44:34>> That's what it means to be compassionate
44:36with somebody to to suffer alongside
44:39that person. That's what it comes from.
44:40Um and it's you know it has this the
44:42passion of Christ in the Christian
44:44religion is all about the suffering of
44:46Christ. That's what it comes and and for
44:48to have compassion towards somebody to
44:49suffer with that person through that and
44:51when you even induce that suffering as
44:53dumb as it is beating each other up you
44:55know doing getting into the octagon and
44:57you know that that is what you're doing
44:59is this is this is the experience of
45:01compassion which gets us to a a
45:03primordial need to move beyond the
45:06animal impulse into the moral space that
45:08actually makes us quintessentially human
45:10that makes us fundamentally different
45:12than all the other beings that makes us
45:13the dominant species.
45:15By the way, it also renders us the most
45:18miserable of all these species as well,
45:20which is so interesting.
45:22>> There's some uh dark and uh terrible
45:24examples of this. And sometimes people
45:26will call it trauma bonding, like the
45:27sort of Siden Nancy story, like to they
45:30like kill them kill each other at the
45:31Chelsea Hotel in like a drug induced
45:33rage or but then like if you watch um
45:36that great movie with Phoenix and Reese
45:38Witherspoon, right? walk the line like
45:40their relationship between Johnny Cash
45:43and and uh
45:44>> June Carter, right, was um Jun Carter
45:47Cash, I think was eventually her her
45:48married name was it was a contentious
45:51one. It was like that it was the it was
45:52the feistiness. It was the fighting like
45:54they were forged in this challenge. She
45:56was divorced at a time when divorce
45:58wasn't
45:59>> um was really frowned upon and and she
46:01was religious and so there was there was
46:04just a lot of contention and then then
46:05there's this peace that they achieve in
46:07being together. But you always sense
46:08that it's like that that there's this
46:12>> recognition that that there's fight in
46:14them and they've been through it.
46:16>> And that's part of like we tend to we
46:18used to kind of hold up relationships
46:20like that. Now we like to see everything
46:22look perfectly
46:23>> smooth,
46:24>> right? But this gets back to like the
46:26marriage vows and this gets back to
46:27relationships of all kinds. It's the
46:29suffering.
46:30>> The suffering suffer with I'm going to
46:31suffer with my wife until I take my
46:33dying breath. And it's like because and
46:35we have a relationship.
46:36>> She's going to suffer with you. My god,
46:38you know the width is there. The both of
46:39you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. To
46:41be clear. Yeah.
46:42>> No, for sure. I mean, it's no walk in
46:44the park being married to me. That's for
46:45sure. I mean, it's a pain for sure. But
46:47she will. I mean, this is like the bond
46:49that we've actually taken for life. And
46:50that and and central to the the and we
46:53have great enjoyment. It's fantastic.
46:56But that enjoyment is everything to do
46:58with the fact that it's pleasurable.
46:59It's interesting. It's it's fascinating.
47:02It's funny. And it's also hard and it's
47:05also there's a lot of suffering and
47:07there's a lot of it's dagger strong. I
47:09mean my wife is Spanish so you have to
47:10understand that there's a high level of
47:11complexity and suffering you know there
47:13>> and words per word density per moment.
47:16>> Yeah. Exactly. Right. And we have a
47:1750/50 Spanish and English marriage which
47:20means that we can you know we can suffer
47:22in you know two languages is what it
47:25comes down to. But the truth is you know
47:26that's what that's what people need to
47:27expect. You know that's what people need
47:29to expect that it's like okay let's
47:31suffer together baby. Come on honey.
47:33Let's just let's just bring it on. And
47:36that's a beautiful thing.
47:37>> Mhm.
47:37>> That's really what it means.
47:38>> And people talk so much about peace and
47:40ease as the goal.
47:42>> Yeah.
47:42>> I'm not I'm hearing some of that, but
47:44I'm hearing a bunch of other things too
47:46here.
47:46>> I get it. And and particularly true that
47:48that men, they want peace at home. They
47:52do want peace at home. And and and I see
47:55that, by the way, women want peace at
47:58home, too. But you're not going to get
48:00peace all the time. You don't want peace
48:02all the time. You want a full life,
48:04fully lived. You want to be It's like
48:06the to be fully alive. What does that
48:08mean? That means the whole range of your
48:10emotions. You're using all the parts of
48:12your lyic system. We're wonderfully
48:14made, Andrew. And it's just like I I
48:15want the dorsal anterior singulate
48:17cortex to give me this sense of
48:19suffering and grief when I'm feeling
48:20social exclusion or the sense of loss.
48:23You know, I want the insula to be highly
48:26active when I have this sense of disgust
48:28or whatever it happens to be or the
48:29amygdala to be active with fear and
48:30anger, etc. I want that. I want my brain
48:33to work the way it's actually supposed
48:34to. I mean, I want to suffer and I'm
48:37going to if I'm actually being fully
48:39alive and and if I'm taking the chances
48:41and if I'm doing the things that I
48:42actually need to do because that is
48:45ingrained in the full experience of what
48:47human happiness is properly understood.
48:50I'd like to take a quick break and
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50:08So we have the second chapter in the
50:09book that maybe we write together.
50:11Although you're the real writer. I
50:13confess I I I yet to decide I'm a writer
50:17which you're good at when you do, man.
50:18>> Oh, thanks man. [laughter] Appreciate
50:19it. One will be one chapter will be on
50:21leisure.
50:22>> Yeah.
50:22>> You've told us that how one spends their
50:24leisure time is a is a critical window
50:27into self and um and the other uh will
50:30be to how to suffer more.
50:32>> Yeah.
50:32>> In in pursuit of moral aspiration
50:35>> but also how to experience pleasure in
50:39pursuit of moral aspiration.
50:40>> Absolutely. Absolutely. So we've gotten
50:43through enjoyment.
50:45>> Yeah. Let's let's talk about uh
50:47satisfaction
50:48>> because [clears throat] because it
50:50sounds similar but it sounds like deeper
50:52more pervasive more like an I don't
50:55define a satisfaction.
50:56>> Yeah. So I mean again and the the
50:58definition everything is in the
51:00definitions and and one of the problems
51:01with happiness is that everybody can
51:03they define it in different ways and
51:05etc. So I I try to stay out of the
51:07linguistic wars
51:08>> and
51:09>> it's like [clears throat] consciousness.
51:10Yeah.
51:10>> No neuroscientist really wants to talk
51:13about consciousness anymore because it's
51:14like it's so circular.
51:15>> It for sure. Yeah.
51:17>> Absolutely. It's being awareness and
51:18being aware of the fact that you're
51:19aware because you're aware or something.
51:21I what you know [laughter]
51:22>> many billions of dollars and euros in
51:24particular. That's a joke aimed at one
51:26Swiss scientist in particular.
51:27>> You've read Michael Poland's new book.
51:29>> I haven't read the new books, but I I
51:31think the world of him.
51:32>> He's fantastic. And the new book is
51:33actually the book to read for people who
51:35are not either, you know, philosophers
51:38or neuroscientists or or even
51:40psychologists for that matter on a world
51:42awaits is what it's called. I really I
51:44I've never met him, but I love the book.
51:46I think it's absolutely fantastic. And
51:48at the end of the book, you know a lot
51:49more and you still don't understand what
51:50consciousness is. You don't understand
51:52what it is. It's it's a lot of things.
51:55It's many things. It's sentience and
51:59it's feelings and it's awareness of
52:01others and it's awareness of yourself
52:04and we don't know where it is in the
52:06brain and oh my goodness but the truth
52:08is that that's one of the problems in in
52:10the field that I have too which is the
52:12the
52:12>> the definition of terms and satisfaction
52:14is one of these things satisfaction as I
52:16define it as many people define it is
52:18the joy that you get from an
52:21accomplishment after struggle that
52:24satisfaction so the satisfaction that
52:26you got from your PhD was proportionate
52:28to the suffering that actually went into
52:30getting your PhD and mine too, right?
52:32And they were like, "Oh man, I'm not
52:34doing that again." But it was so
52:35awesome. And you know, I think about,
52:36you know,
52:37>> but it was so awesome. Those those are
52:39the key words.
52:40>> I know. And it's like I talked to, you
52:41know, my kids my kids in the military
52:43there. I mean, being a Marine is no,
52:45you're not screwing around.
52:47>> And you know, I saw what my kids went
52:49through and you know, the infantry
52:51training battalion and the scout sniper
52:54indoctrination. And my daughter is, you
52:55know, and she's an officer. She actually
52:57had got her first salute from her
52:59brother. He's 6'5 and she's 4'11. It was
53:02awesome. You know, actually, your older
53:03brother has to salute you. It's great.
53:05So cool.
53:06>> Yeah, it's great. But, you know, it's
53:07it's people talk when I say, you know,
53:09tell me the story of your success.
53:11>> I mean, the people make jokes about it.
53:13You remember David Ko, one of the Koch
53:15brothers, you know, of of KO Industries
53:17in Witchah, Kansas. And he was a very,
53:19very funny guy. And he used to say,
53:20people say, "How did you get so rich?"
53:22And I say, "Well, it started when I was
53:2412 years old and I found an apple and I
53:27was shining it up and I had paid a
53:28nickel for it and somebody offered me a
53:30dime and I said, "Oh, it's a 100% profit
53:32margin." So, I went back and bought two
53:34apples and I doubled my money. And I
53:35started doing this every day and every
53:37week, doubling my money and doubling my
53:39money. And you can do the math week
53:40after week and year after year. And
53:42finally, my father died, left me $100
53:44million. [laughter]
53:46>> That's good. And the reason that that's
53:49funny is because that flicks the
53:50parhipple gyrus and it makes you feel
53:52like that surprise like in every joke,
53:54right? But the reason it's funny is
53:56because real satisfaction from your
53:58accomplishments comes from the struggle,
54:00not from the accolades. That's what it
54:02really comes to because you earned it.
54:04And human beings are made to earn their
54:07success. This is the reason that they'll
54:08convince themselves that when somebody's
54:11giving them absolute utter large that
54:13they actually earned it in some way. If
54:16you want to get have your career
54:17destroyed as a politician, go to a bunch
54:20of senior citizens and tell them you're
54:22getting a lot back more back from social
54:24security than you ever paid in. Your
54:27career is over because you basically
54:29just, you know, flicked their
54:30parippocample gyrus in a very unpleasant
54:32way. You kicked it, right?
54:34>> So cool.
54:35>> And they don't like it. and and and so
54:37so the truth of the matter is that that
54:40he was saying that because the the
54:42answer that people are expecting is I
54:45suffered and I had three bankruptcies
54:48and you know I almost lost my marriage
54:50and I had to raid my kids' college fund
54:52and I was afraid you know like Bernie
54:54Marcus talks about the Home Depot and
54:56they were down their last dollar and it
54:59was and it was a it was grim is how he
55:02talked about it and and so that's really
55:03really important and that's one of the
55:05reasons that satisfaction which is so
55:07important you know we got to make
55:08progress why arrival leads to
55:11frustration but but progress toward
55:13goals is what is how we're wired purpose
55:16in life comes from goals of direction
55:18and progress called toward purpose and
55:20goals that's what purpose where our
55:22purpose in life actually comes from and
55:23and so the result of it is that we need
55:26to to have this sense that we're we're
55:28sacrificing for something that we're
55:30doing something that that that's bigger
55:32than who we are and we're willing to
55:33give something up. That's really one of
55:37the great secrets. It's one of the
55:38reasons also that when people hit their
55:39goals, they get so depressed is because
55:42there's no more progress. You know, it's
55:43why Olympic athletes are so likely to
55:45fall into a clinical depression after
55:47they win their their, you know, their
55:48gold medal. And why people are so when
55:50they win a billion dollars, they're
55:52like, I guess I need another billion. I
55:55guess I need, you know, because I don't
55:57I'm not feeling it, man. Because we're
55:58we're actually made for this progress.
56:00But the progress entails the struggle.
56:01We we judge your students, my students.
56:04There's no satisfaction that comes if
56:06they cheat on an exam. But if they work
56:08hard and get an A, that's very very
56:10satisfying. And you teach your kids
56:12this. Don't eat before dinner. It's not
56:14because of nutrition. It's because you
56:16want their synaptically plastic little
56:18brains to register the fact that that if
56:21they come to dinner hungry, dinner's
56:23better.
56:23>> Definitely.
56:24>> And you you you tell Junior, you know,
56:26don't eat before dinner because it's
56:27unhealthy. But if you were being honest,
56:28you'd say, I want you to suffer. That's
56:31why you can't have a snack.
56:32>> A few years ago, I was out a lot on the
56:34internet saying, you know, dopamine that
56:36comes without effort before it is is
56:39very pernicious. And um
56:41>> so true.
56:42>> I stand behind that. But some people
56:43like took the interpretation too far. It
56:46in part in an attempt to malign me,
56:48which is fine. Like, you know, I'm out
56:49there, you know. Yeah, sure. That that
56:51comes with the territory. But they it
56:53sort of implied I didn't have the
56:55language for it, but now I do, thanks to
56:57you. It's sort of implied that I don't
56:59believe in leisure,
57:00>> right? I don't want to return us to the
57:01first macronutrient um in a way that
57:03distracts us, but I think this is
57:05appropriate now. So, of course, leisure
57:07is great, but I would say leisure is way
57:10better when you've been working hard.
57:13And and so if you've been working hard
57:14towards something that has its own
57:16intrinsic reward, you the work itself
57:18can become intrinsically rewarding or
57:20not. You know, there are a lot of things
57:21I did in graduate school that absolutely
57:23loved the process. And there were some
57:25of them that like
57:26>> the only word for it is it sucked.
57:29>> It just it sucked.
57:31>> Allnighters like two days recording
57:33experiments and like just like breathing
57:35all that is in the room and it was just
57:38was like it sucked. But it and it was
57:40awesome. But there are forms of leisure.
57:42Like on those Fridays when we finished
57:44those experiments, I would drive out to
57:47this um this this orchard outside of
57:50Davis where I did graduate school to
57:51Winters and I would just there would be
57:52four phones. I would just listen to
57:54music in my car
57:56>> and I just felt like I felt like I'd
57:58been transported in time. That's right.
58:00>> And I felt connected to all the people
58:02who had worked a hard week and then were
58:04just listening to music in their car.
58:06And then eventually my girlfriend and I
58:07would drive out there and now I could
58:09share that experience with her and she
58:11was a scientist and worked really really
58:12hard too. Um arguably even harder than I
58:15was because the experiment she was doing
58:17took took a yet another level of of um
58:20persistence that really remarkable. So
58:22it's not that um saying that effort has
58:25to be there before dopamine is like
58:27means you're a onetrack like
58:28self-optimization junkie,
58:30>> right? It's just an important pie slice
58:34in in being a like a good human being in
58:36my opinion. So like so I kind of bristle
58:39at the idea that a concept like that
58:42could be construed as as um
58:45anti-pleasure but in a sense it's really
58:49like there's something about the human
58:50mind where we want we hear one piece of
58:53this we hear about one pie slice we say
58:55oh so that means like
58:57>> leisure doesn't exist for this person
58:59but but what I love about your work and
59:01what you're telling us today is that
59:02>> it's really about the complete pie chart
59:05>> it's not about
59:07working with our with our brains,
59:09working with our biology. We are built
59:11to earn our rewards.
59:12>> We are built to earn our success.
59:14>> We have no concept of what anything is
59:17worth if we don't earn our success. And
59:19and you know the the reason that we want
59:21to do things, we think that you know
59:22that a a Snickers bar gives you
59:25pleasure. No, no, no, no, no. It's
59:26actually the neurochemicals that are
59:28giving you pleasure that are
59:29[clears throat] actually making you feel
59:30this pleasure. It just happens to that
59:32through the the way that the brain
59:33works. Getting your PhD didn't give you
59:35pleasure per se. There was nothing about
59:36the piece of paper. It was actually the
59:39knowledge that you had done this thing.
59:41And so, one of the greatest secrets to
59:43excellence and success in people's lives
59:45is the sense of earning it. And that
59:47means making peace with suffering,
59:49making peace with with pain, making
59:52peace with struggle is what it comes
59:55down to. Now, that doesn't mean and and
59:57one of the biggest mistakes that strive
59:58often make is that it's all struggle.
1:00:00You mean you remember this the the the
1:00:02not discredited but complicated Walter
1:00:06Michelle marshmallow experiments at your
1:00:08fine institution and and and what they
1:00:10you know the followup you know the kids
1:00:12who ate the marshmallow within 5 minutes
1:00:14they were they had no impulse control
1:00:16and they went on to actually get worse
1:00:18grades and worse jobs etc. And the 20%
1:00:20of the kids in the marshmallow
1:00:21experiment who were able to not eat the
1:00:23marshmallow and they got the second
1:00:25marshmallow they did much better in
1:00:26life. And the whole point was the
1:00:28deferral of gratification is a big
1:00:30signal of how well you're actually going
1:00:32to do. One of the biggest problems the
1:00:33strivers have and I'm speaking to all
1:00:34the stvers watching us right now is that
1:00:37they don't know what their marshmallow
1:00:39even is. And so they're just going to
1:00:41wait their whole lives and that's not
1:00:43what you've been saying. That's not what
1:00:45you're talking about to never never
1:00:47never drive out into the out to winters.
1:00:50to never actually listen to the music,
1:00:52to never actually wait for the second
1:00:54marshmallow and enjoy that second
1:00:56marshmallow. That's a mistake, too.
1:00:57That's actually a huge mistake. But the
1:01:00whole point is we're trying to find the
1:01:01golden mean between earning it and not
1:01:04earning it. That doing enough and
1:01:06struggling enough and then actually
1:01:07taking the reward and then starting
1:01:09again. This actually feeds into a lot of
1:01:11experiences that people have. A big part
1:01:13of my work is how to age well, about how
1:01:15to get happier as you age. You
1:01:18>> do tell.
1:01:18>> Yeah. I mean, it's super important. And
1:01:20part of the reason is because, man, I'm
1:01:21no spring chicken. And and and and this
1:01:24is me search, right, for all of us.
1:01:26We're always doing me search instead of
1:01:27research. And so, I want to know how can
1:01:29I be happier at 60 than 50. And now I
1:01:32want to know how I can be happy years
1:01:33down the road at 70 instead of 60. I
1:01:36want to know how to retire. And so, when
1:01:38I'm giving people advice, I'm doing
1:01:39public education about these things
1:01:41because I've been trying to answer these
1:01:42questions for myself. Retirement is a
1:01:44classic case of screwing up the
1:01:46satisfaction part of happiness. It's
1:01:49like, I'm going to work and work and
1:01:50work and work. I'm going to be a
1:01:51miserable sob and then at 65 I'm going
1:01:54to stop completely and just goof around.
1:01:56That's the recipe for misery all the way
1:01:59through because it was no fun. It was
1:02:01all suffering without reward and then
1:02:03it's all reward without suffering.
1:02:06That's neurohysiologically unound, but
1:02:09it's also philosophically unound. it
1:02:12doesn't actually make sense. So, I help
1:02:14people retire constantly, but I also try
1:02:16to help them have the best life as they
1:02:17do to move through the course of their
1:02:19careers, do what they're actually
1:02:20naturally good at that is both hard and
1:02:23rewarding, which changes over the course
1:02:25of your career. There's there's a lot of
1:02:26research on that, but it all gets into
1:02:28how can I maintain satisfaction. The
1:02:30mystery comes when we actually do get
1:02:33the thing that we actually want and then
1:02:36we find that it leaves us cold.
1:02:38>> That seems like a real tyranny. like
1:02:40mother nature had a trick up her sleeve
1:02:42which kind of she did. I mean you
1:02:45actually people if I can get that watch
1:02:47that car that marriage then I'll be
1:02:50happy forever. I mean guys will say to
1:02:52women you know if you marry me you'll
1:02:54make me happy forever. That's not right.
1:02:58You know it doesn't matter what she says
1:03:00when you propose. It doesn't matter what
1:03:01she says on her wedding day. It's what
1:03:02you say to each other over the course of
1:03:04your entire marriage
1:03:06>> that actually will give you net net the
1:03:08best possible life. That's why MC Jagger
1:03:12saying I can't get no satisfaction. He
1:03:13should have saying I can't keep no
1:03:15satisfaction. And that that's a whole
1:03:18different as we say in Seattle a whole
1:03:20another problem mystery.
1:03:22>> Is that a Seattleism?
1:03:24>> I guess so. I don't know. as I did.
1:03:26>> There's so many articles out there and
1:03:28websites and blogs that are like
1:03:31>> the six things that people say on their
1:03:33deathbed. Nobody says, "I wish I worked
1:03:35more." I don't know. My dad, he's in his
1:03:38early 80s and he's still rocking and he
1:03:40loves his work, right?
1:03:42>> And he loves his wife and he loves his
1:03:43kids and he loves his coffee and he
1:03:45loves his meditation. He loves life.
1:03:46>> He's a happy guy.
1:03:47>> And he would say like work has been a
1:03:50he's giving just still working,
1:03:52consuming ideas, giving lectures. He I
1:03:55think he would say he was really glad he
1:03:57worked as much as he did, not more than
1:03:59that.
1:04:00>> But these lists to me are not useful,
1:04:03whether it's about work or whether it's
1:04:04about anything because the lists to me
1:04:08are really about the question when I
1:04:12look back on my life, I want to be able
1:04:14to say blank. Okay, I feel like that
1:04:17analysis peeled back to like when I
1:04:20finish my college degree, I want to be
1:04:21able to say, "All right, that can inform
1:04:23some choices going forward. Make good
1:04:25friends, got enriched myself
1:04:26intellectually, etc., etc. didn't, you
1:04:29know, got healthier as opposed to less
1:04:30healthy." You could do that, but it's
1:04:33not I feel like it's the wrong question.
1:04:35>> Yeah.
1:04:35>> Like it's the wrong thing when I look
1:04:37back on my life. I like how about now
1:04:39and the decisions you can make today,
1:04:41this week, this month, this year.
1:04:42because that's how you end up in a place
1:04:44where
1:04:45>> and let's face it most likely those last
1:04:47moments they could be very peaceful and
1:04:48beautiful but you don't know
1:04:50>> so we we imagine this kind of like
1:04:53before the curtains closed moment that
1:04:55some people get
1:04:57>> but I don't think most people get that
1:04:59I've watched people die it's not it's
1:05:01usually not like that it's I feel like
1:05:04we tend to integrate our levels of
1:05:06satisfaction pleasure lack pain etc on a
1:05:09much shorter time scale so is there a
1:05:11better set of questions questions and
1:05:13answers that we can come up with for
1:05:15living in the now so that we are
1:05:17steering right through
1:05:19the more of the time that we have
1:05:21between now and whenever it is that that
1:05:23curtain closes.
1:05:23>> Yes, for sure. There's a lot actually on
1:05:25this and there's it touches on a couple
1:05:27of different things. Now, to begin with,
1:05:28this really gets into the third
1:05:30macronutrient, which is meaning and and
1:05:32what what are we doing to understand the
1:05:34meaning of our lives? Ultimately that
1:05:36knowledge is the most important
1:05:38macronutrient the most philosophical the
1:05:40most I mean it gets closest to the you
1:05:42know the the problem the hard problem of
1:05:44consciousness to to use Chowmer's his
1:05:46his his formulation on this etc etc but
1:05:49there's a lot that goes into it to begin
1:05:51with it's you know it's like these are
1:05:53David Brooks talks about no no relation
1:05:55friend but no relation he talks about
1:05:57resume versus eulogy virtues and you
1:06:00know you it's true you know it's
1:06:03probably better if you don't imagine
1:06:04people at your funeral saying he had 5
1:06:07million miles on Delta. I mean, that's
1:06:09probably
1:06:10>> I got some friends who are like really
1:06:11into their points on their cars. It's a
1:06:13video game. It's an adultish.
1:06:15>> Yeah. They're trying to count their
1:06:17scoreboard. And and part of the reason
1:06:18is because that's that's a sense of
1:06:20satisfaction, you know? It's it's
1:06:22they're trying to get that they they
1:06:23want to make progress, progress toward a
1:06:25goal, goals and direction, making
1:06:27progress. We're progressoriented
1:06:28animals, which is why the scoreboard is
1:06:30so important. The trouble is that when
1:06:32once you run up the scoreboard after a
1:06:34certain point, I mean, you die and stay
1:06:35dead and you realize that nobody
1:06:37actually cares. And so if all anybody
1:06:39talks about is this is this score this
1:06:42this trivial scoreboard, which is
1:06:45frequent flyer miles or money in a bank
1:06:48account, right? Or or any of these other
1:06:50worldly things that's a problem. And
1:06:52that really leads to the first criterion
1:06:54for what actually is going to lead to
1:06:56regret and what isn't. And that that's a
1:06:59deep philosophical thing that has has a
1:07:01lot of roots in in in classical
1:07:04philosophy but but also a lot of
1:07:05behavioral science behind it as well. So
1:07:07Aristotle v visav St. Thomas Aquinas in
1:07:11in the 13th century he he asserted that
1:07:15we want to be happy. Okay, fair this is
1:07:18pretty good. Now he his definition of
1:07:20happiness was beatitudo
1:07:22which is the the the luminescence of
1:07:25presence of god right to the
1:07:27relationship with god. Other people
1:07:28define it in different ways who are not
1:07:30traditionally religious but I think
1:07:31everybody would agree yeah we want to be
1:07:33happy. He said that to do that I mean
1:07:37you you have a tendency to to to follow
1:07:40your animal impulses. So far so good.
1:07:42Gets back to an early part of the
1:07:43conversation. And he said, "Your animal
1:07:45impulses tell you one fundamental lie."
1:07:49And that fundamental lie is that these
1:07:51the following four things when they
1:07:54beguile you and you get them that you'll
1:07:57be actually happy and you'll be finally
1:07:58satisfied. You'll finally be there.
1:08:00Those four things are money, resources,
1:08:03power, which is influence over other
1:08:05people, pleasure, which also is comfort
1:08:08or security, right? or honor which means
1:08:12you know for you and me as academics
1:08:14it's like hey that's Andrew Hubman he
1:08:16wrote that paper in the journal of you
1:08:18know seven dimensional you know
1:08:20disappearing manifolds or you know some
1:08:22academic journal nobody's ever heard of
1:08:23but still academic prestige admiration
1:08:26whatever it happens to be those are
1:08:28beguiling idols that if you pursue those
1:08:31things as an end per se there's nothing
1:08:33evil about them they can be used for
1:08:35great good but if you use them as an end
1:08:37per se that's when you'll wind up in
1:08:40trouble. That's the problem that we
1:08:42actually get. So they say, nobody says,
1:08:44I wish I'd worked more. What they should
1:08:46say is nobody says, I wish I'd gotten a
1:08:49little bit more famous. I wish I had
1:08:51had, you know, a million more dollars in
1:08:54my 401k that I have no idea what's going
1:08:56to actually happen to it. That's really
1:08:58what they're saying. And so back up from
1:09:00that and to for us to be happier, we
1:09:03need to assess whether or not we are
1:09:04serving these worldly idols. And that's
1:09:07incredibly good behavioral science
1:09:08because that is an almost perfect uh
1:09:11taxonomy of the things that we that we
1:09:14actually chase. I have a game I play
1:09:16with my students at HBS. They don't know
1:09:18what their idol is. They don't know what
1:09:20it is. And again, I got nothing against
1:09:22money. I think money can be does
1:09:24wonderful things. Jobs, opportunity,
1:09:26growth, taxes, philanthropy. There's
1:09:29nothing wrong with power. Influence
1:09:31other people wielded in a virtuous way.
1:09:34Pleasure. I mean pleasure leads to
1:09:36babies. So great fame. You can refract
1:09:40your fame. I mean there are lots and
1:09:42lots of people I promise you Andrew
1:09:43there are lots of people pursuing their
1:09:44PhDs right now because of your fame
1:09:47which is a beautiful and a good thing
1:09:48for humanity. The problem is it'll hurt
1:09:51you if one of these things is your
1:09:53primary objective is your primary goal
1:09:56and you endow it with with mythical
1:09:59power. So I play a game with them.
1:10:01What's my idol? They don't know. They
1:10:03don't know what their idol is. You want
1:10:05to play?
1:10:06>> Yeah.
1:10:06>> Want to play? What's my idol?
1:10:07>> Yeah, I'm a little scared, but let's do
1:10:08it.
1:10:09>> Let's do it.
1:10:10>> I'd like to take a quick break to
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1:11:20know what your idol is and again what
1:11:21Aquinus suggests and what modern social
1:11:24science absolutely verifies is that
1:11:27again nothing wrong with these things
1:11:29but if you pursue this this winds up
1:11:31being the source of your later
1:11:32bitterness and regret. The reason is
1:11:34because when you pursue these things
1:11:36you're doing it at cost and the cost is
1:11:38almost always love.
1:11:40>> Love is the secret to happiness. To love
1:11:42and be loved is what we want. And when
1:11:44you pursue something that's not real,
1:11:46that's not alive, then you're you're
1:11:49sacrificing opportunities to love and be
1:11:50loved if you pursue it as a goal, per
1:11:52se. But when you know what your idol is,
1:11:54you'll still make mistakes. You're still
1:11:55going to mess up. You're still going to
1:11:57be miserable a lot, but you will
1:11:59sometimes avoid the error and which is
1:12:02incredibly powerful. The way to play
1:12:04this game is to eliminate because you
1:12:07always do elimination when you're trying
1:12:08to do these things. It's much more
1:12:10robust. It's actually better.
1:12:12Eliminate the idol that you don't have
1:12:14one by one by one. It's going to get
1:12:16harder as we go along. It's going to
1:12:17start off really really easy. I can even
1:12:20make predictions about you about what
1:12:21what you would eliminate, but eliminate
1:12:23them until you until you've got the last
1:12:25one. And that's the one that's most
1:12:27likely to beguile you and lead you down
1:12:28the wrong road. So, money,
1:12:31resources, power, pleasure,
1:12:35fame, or adoration of other people. You
1:12:37you're going to get rid of one. And this
1:12:39doesn't mean you don't have it. It just
1:12:40means you're the population average.
1:12:42>> Get get rid of one of those.
1:12:43>> Yeah. If you got rid of money, for
1:12:44example, you say, "I don't care about
1:12:46it." That just means you're the most
1:12:47average American economically, which by
1:12:50world standards is unbelievable. And
1:12:51historical standards is fabulously
1:12:53wealthy.
1:12:54>> So you said it was money.
1:12:55>> Uhhuh.
1:12:56>> Power,
1:12:57>> pleasure. And pleasure can also be
1:12:58comfort or security,
1:13:00>> right? Or and and honor, which is
1:13:03prestige or fame or adoration or
1:13:05whatever it happens to be or respect.
1:13:06>> And power can be uh benevolent too,
1:13:09right?
1:13:09>> Totally. All these all could be great
1:13:11because the most virtuous happy people
1:13:13have these things.
1:13:14>> Yeah,
1:13:14>> they have a lot of these things.
1:13:16>> Yeah. I don't I don't care about uh I
1:13:18don't care much about um the notion of
1:13:20like honor and accolades. In fact, just
1:13:23as a very brief anecdote, it was right.
1:13:25I'd been tenured for maybe three, four
1:13:27years. Yeah. And I was struggling
1:13:29financially as a professor despite what
1:13:32people might think about Stanford and I
1:13:33was happy to one of those. And so I had
1:13:35a conversation with uh my then chair or
1:13:39was it vice chair? And he said well you
1:13:41know at some point
1:13:42>> you know you'll be chair and then of the
1:13:44department because it's rotating chair.
1:13:45I'm still in this department by the way.
1:13:47We'll see if I still am at the end of
1:13:48this conversation. What what the heck?
1:13:49And he said you know it comes with a a
1:13:51pay increase. And I was like, really?
1:13:53And I I thought about I'd seen what
1:13:54happened to chairs of departments
1:13:57couldn't focus too much on science. A
1:13:58totally it's a um punishment disguised
1:14:00as an honor.
1:14:02>> It's a punishment to any real scientist,
1:14:04but they may but they cloak it and they
1:14:05say, "No, this is service to the
1:14:07department."
1:14:08>> And that's true,
1:14:09>> right?
1:14:11>> Some people are exceptional at I have a
1:14:12close friend of mine for childhood. He's
1:14:14a chair. And but the chair needs certain
1:14:16attributes
1:14:17>> that that um are important. And I and so
1:14:19my the response out of my mouth was how
1:14:22do I make sure I never become chair?
1:14:25[laughter]
1:14:26Well, so I think now it's very unlikely
1:14:27I'll be chair of the department. I'm not
1:14:29around enough. But um [clears throat]
1:14:31like how do I make absolutely sure that
1:14:33I'm like not like like I'll do anything
1:14:36to not be chair by virtue of the fact
1:14:38that my dad's a scientist and I grew up
1:14:40seeing a lot of scientists and hearing
1:14:42about a lot of luminaries of science. I
1:14:43heard I heard this story about Richard
1:14:44Fineman, the great Richard Fineman where
1:14:47apparently I don't know if this is true
1:14:48or not, but he was elected into the
1:14:50National Academy of Sciences and I think
1:14:52at the inaugural dinner he said like to
1:14:54someone like, "Well, what happens now?"
1:14:55And they go, "Oh, you elect other people
1:14:56in." And he goes, "Wait, so this is like
1:14:58a club where like we pin medals on each
1:15:00other." He go and he goes, "I quit.
1:15:02[laughter] If it's not true, it's
1:15:03awesome. If it's true, it's awesome."
1:15:05That's funny.
1:15:05>> And and I knew
1:15:07>> that true or not, what the what the
1:15:09story illustrates is that like those
1:15:11honors mean nothing. In fact, the most
1:15:14important thing about a Nobel Prize, I
1:15:17believe, is that it allows the winner in
1:15:19addition to the value of the discovery,
1:15:21but it allows the winner to be a great
1:15:22fundraiser for other people at the
1:15:24university.
1:15:26>> That's it.
1:15:26>> Yeah.
1:15:27>> And so, and the discovery obviously, but
1:15:30um anyway, so honor doesn't really like
1:15:32like I'm not interested in medals or
1:15:34things. I got a PhD because I needed one
1:15:36to get to know.
1:15:36>> But you become super famous as a public
1:15:38intellectual. Is that important? Does
1:15:40that motivate you? Because that's, you
1:15:41know, that's a different kettle of fish,
1:15:43isn't it?
1:15:43>> I will go on record saying that uh fame
1:15:48increases your opportunities
1:15:50exponentially and limits your freedoms
1:15:52exponentially.
1:15:53>> Um, no, it's not important to me. It's
1:15:55it's a it's a um it's a byproduct of the
1:15:59pursuit of other things.
1:16:00>> Are you an introvert or an extrovert?
1:16:01strongly introverted despite how much I
1:16:03talk. Got it. I need a lot of time. I
1:16:06get it. I need a lot. You should see me
1:16:07when I'm alone. I talk even more. No,
1:16:08I'm kidding.
1:16:09>> You're probably exhausted after a
1:16:10podcast.
1:16:11>> Yeah, I love my team and but I interact
1:16:14with very few people on purpose. No, I
1:16:16um very I need time um to think and I
1:16:21love people, but I'm very very
1:16:23introverted.
1:16:24>> I got it. Yeah, I got it. Okay. Go. So,
1:16:25I I believe you. And so, you'd go to the
1:16:27normal the most normal. You'd be as
1:16:29famous as your mailman. Oh, that would
1:16:31be awesome. Okay. I have the best like
1:16:33the people that clean up my
1:16:34neighborhood. I live in a pretty grungy
1:16:36neighborhood. My place I do my best to
1:16:38keep really nice. These people are like
1:16:40my heroes. I'm always bringing the
1:16:41matina and like they they're out there
1:16:43like they're literally scraping up
1:16:46from [laughter]
1:16:48animals people. Like I love these people
1:16:50and they're so like the ones I know so
1:16:53happy. They're so happy. And I'm like,
1:16:54man, one, maybe someday I just like
1:16:56throw on one of those orange vests and
1:16:57just like disappear into like,
1:16:59>> you know, I won't name a town, but Yeah.
1:17:02>> You don't don't name the town or pretty
1:17:03soon they'll find you.
1:17:04>> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter]
1:17:05>> So, okay. Good, good, good. Now, we got
1:17:07rid of the easy one in a way.
1:17:09>> Money, power, pleasure.
1:17:12>> What's next? That means it's going to be
1:17:13a little harder because all these things
1:17:15are, you know, have their rewards.
1:17:17>> Yeah.
1:17:17>> So, which one do you get rid of next?
1:17:19>> Pleasure.
1:17:20>> Pleasure. And then because you're pretty
1:17:21austere. I mean, you're you're I mean,
1:17:23look, your book's called Protocols.
1:17:24>> Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. I inherited my my
1:17:28mom's um
1:17:30people I was this kind of like um
1:17:34observer comes on where like people are
1:17:35going to think I'm like scripting this.
1:17:37My mom has a save the world piece of her
1:17:39that's very real and very alive in me.
1:17:41But the thing we also share like a
1:17:44desire to to save change, positive
1:17:46change. But the thing that comes alive
1:17:48in me that I definitely got from her,
1:17:50it's like if an emotion like gets to me,
1:17:53if it comes up, it's big. Like I like
1:17:56the people I love, I love so big that
1:17:58sometimes I think the top of my head's
1:18:00going to explode
1:18:01>> like or that I think like my heart's
1:18:02going to explode.
1:18:04>> And and it's and it's not comfortable.
1:18:06>> It's a um it's I've gotten better at
1:18:08tolerating that.
1:18:10>> Yeah. It makes me emotional cuz I I do
1:18:12think that like grief is proportional to
1:18:14love and but so I don't walk out of my
1:18:16podcast studio where I work with my best
1:18:18friends. Not all of them but all of them
1:18:20are my best friends. It's not but I have
1:18:22best friends elsewhere too. But I walk
1:18:23out and I don't think oh god like
1:18:25>> one of them might die on the road
1:18:26tonight. I just think I'm the luckiest
1:18:29>> human being on the planet to work with
1:18:31these people doing. So but it fills me
1:18:33so much sometimes. It's a lot. It's a
1:18:35lot to to tolerate. So pleasure is not
1:18:38something that I like I don't need more
1:18:41intense experiences. I'm having intense
1:18:43experiences from the moment I wake up
1:18:44until the moment I go to sleep.
1:18:46>> Yeah. Yeah. And you and you're and
1:18:47you're not a drinker. You're not a
1:18:49>> I'm not a drinker. I've never been a
1:18:50drug guy.
1:18:51>> So let me say something nice about your
1:18:52mom. Okay. So the fact that you kicked
1:18:56out uh honor right from the very
1:18:58beginning. You know what honor addicts
1:19:00all have in common? They think that love
1:19:01is earned.
1:19:03>> That's what they all have in common.
1:19:04They usually have this common childhood
1:19:05where they're really really good at
1:19:06something. I know you were a good
1:19:08student and you were a good skateboarder
1:19:09and you were good at I was wait to be
1:19:11fair before the the internet comes for
1:19:12me. I was not a very good skateboarder
1:19:14which drove me toward academics because
1:19:16I kept getting hurt. I loved the sport
1:19:18and I was a I was a good student but I
1:19:20was not I I always had to work hard.
1:19:22>> Yeah. It's very easy for for for a lot
1:19:25of young people, particularly the young
1:19:26people of of those who are of
1:19:27intellectuals and and excellent people
1:19:29to learn from their parents that they
1:19:31get attention and affection when they do
1:19:33something unusual.
1:19:35>> And the result is that their little
1:19:36brains register the idea that love is
1:19:38earned. And love isn't earned. Love is a
1:19:39free gift freely given. Love is a grace.
1:19:41Mh.
1:19:41>> And if you go through life, particularly
1:19:43in the most plastic part of your of
1:19:46your, you know, your psychological
1:19:48formation, thinking that love is earned,
1:19:50you'll surround yourself with people who
1:19:51will make you make you earn their love.
1:19:54You'll marry somebody who who will make
1:19:56you earn her love
1:19:58>> and friends who kiss up to you and say,
1:20:00"You got to earn my love." And the
1:20:01result is you'll go from person to
1:20:03person to person. You'll be a real honor
1:20:04addict. And and what what people have in
1:20:07common is that they have a big public
1:20:08life which happened to you that you'll
1:20:11crave the adoration of strangers. You'll
1:20:13actually crave it because that's the
1:20:15addiction is trying to earn the love
1:20:17even of strangers. And that's a big
1:20:19problem. So who actually made you whole?
1:20:22>> Probably your mom,
1:20:24>> probably your parents because they loved
1:20:26you unconditionally and they probably
1:20:27still do.
1:20:28>> That's good parenting. Yeah, that's
1:20:31>> they definitely did and they and they uh
1:20:33love love us unconditionally and they
1:20:34definitely do. And um yeah, I get a zero
1:20:39zero dopamine hit from people saying,
1:20:41"Oh, you're so and so. Can I get get a
1:20:43picture?" It doesn't bother me,
1:20:44>> right?
1:20:45>> What does fill me is when I get an email
1:20:47that somebody's like, "I'm going to go
1:20:48study neuroscience or I did this thing
1:20:51and it really, you know, I learned from
1:20:52so and so on your podcast and and it's
1:20:54and it's enriched my life." That feels
1:20:56really good because then I feel like,
1:20:58okay, great. Like I at least I know I'm
1:21:00not wasting my time.
1:21:01>> Yeah.
1:21:01>> You know,
1:21:01>> money and money and power
1:21:03>> and money just means resources. It's the
1:21:05ability to do stuff. It doesn't mean
1:21:07that it makes you more whole as a
1:21:08person, but it and and often this can
1:21:10the answer can come from a sense of
1:21:13identity. So often money idol will come
1:21:16from people who grew up rich because
1:21:17that's what it means to be a normal
1:21:19person. They or they grow up poor
1:21:21because they know how bad it is when you
1:21:22don't have it. So there's all kinds of
1:21:24circumstances that can provoke this and
1:21:25and and power is just like I I want to
1:21:27be in charge. I really really want to be
1:21:30in charge,
1:21:31>> which is not it's not it's not a vice.
1:21:33It's not a you know, but but it's really
1:21:35what drives you. So which one do you get
1:21:37rid of next?
1:21:38>> Money.
1:21:38>> Money, which is you you become the most
1:21:40you become economically just like your
1:21:41postman.
1:21:43>> Yeah, I I'd be fine.
1:21:44>> Who probably has?
1:21:45>> And I'm saying that now from a position
1:21:46of financial security. So it like
1:21:48>> No. No. And look there in the comments
1:21:50somebody's going to say, you know,
1:21:51>> easy to say. Hubberman and Brooks are
1:21:53yeah like completely full of it because
1:21:55they're you know right I got it but I
1:21:56believe you
1:21:57>> yeah but
1:21:58>> because you look you have been in both
1:22:00situations
1:22:01>> definitely so my chairman in San Diego
1:22:03before I moved my lab to Stanford he had
1:22:05the I went to him for a salary increase
1:22:06so in that department you could set your
1:22:08own salary as long as it wasn't higher
1:22:10than his
1:22:11>> and I had a lot of grants
1:22:13>> get him a raise
1:22:14>> what what what do you want to earn what
1:22:15do you want to earn and I told him and
1:22:17he said no there was no parody in that
1:22:19department in our in my department at
1:22:21Stanford there is you I you can't make
1:22:23more than someone more senior than you,
1:22:25right? So parody is important in certain
1:22:26departments, not in others.
1:22:28>> And uh I had a lot of grants. I'd like a
1:22:30raise of $20,000 this year, which on the
1:22:34significant fraction of what I was
1:22:35making.
1:22:36>> And um and he said, "Just remember, he
1:22:39like did the whole like pivot and look
1:22:41thing like that like you're not allowed
1:22:42to do anymore like like male chairman
1:22:44pivots towards you like like sitting
1:22:46with his knees open and he like did like
1:22:48you can never get away with this
1:22:49anymore." And he said, "Just remember,
1:22:52you're going to make a lot less money
1:22:53than you deserve." He was talking about
1:22:55then and he's like, "And then in the
1:22:56later part of your career," he was
1:22:57talking about himself, "you're going to
1:22:58make a lot more money than you deserve
1:23:00because you're going to have 10 year
1:23:02guy." And he was absolutely right.
1:23:03There's Bill Mobly. He's still alive and
1:23:05and um he's actually a meditator. He's
1:23:06friends with the Dollaly Lama. So, hi,
1:23:08Bill. He was absolutely right.
1:23:10>> I didn't know how that was going to
1:23:11happen or anything. I didn't know it was
1:23:12going to happen, but it turned out that
1:23:14that's true. So if I were to average my
1:23:16income
1:23:17>> back across two and a half decades of
1:23:20>> yeah I I was perfectly happy to live in
1:23:22a lab sp and save up a little bit of
1:23:24money to be able to go snowboarding once
1:23:26a month in graduate school. Like why pay
1:23:28rent? They have showers in the building.
1:23:30They're called monkey cage washers
1:23:32>> you know like you know like [laughter]
1:23:34you can't turn the heat on you know like
1:23:36they have a bathroom with a sink. Like
1:23:38people thought I was crazy right? But
1:23:39then then I didn't have to commute, you
1:23:41know. Now granted, I wasn't married with
1:23:42kids or anything, so I've lived both
1:23:44ways. I wouldn't say I've ever been
1:23:45poor. I won't I want to be honest.
1:23:49>> Money is not like
1:23:50>> it's great.
1:23:51>> It's not that fun.
1:23:53>> I mean,
1:23:54>> it's not that much you can you imagine
1:23:55like having a boat.
1:23:57>> No, that'd be a pain. Save me from the
1:23:58boat.
1:23:58>> No, no. I had to go on a long boat thing
1:24:01with my grandfather. It was It was like
1:24:02It was torturous. I want to go out on
1:24:04the boat for a day. I like seeing boats
1:24:05on the ocean. I like scuba diving. I'm
1:24:07not No. I it would be nice. We're
1:24:09talking extremes here, but no, money is
1:24:11not a a big motivator for it's nice to
1:24:13have, but I'll tell you
1:24:15>> I'm sort of answering what I think will
1:24:16be the next question. The best thing
1:24:18about having money is that I can use it
1:24:20to do things for other people. And that
1:24:22falls to me under this thing that you're
1:24:23calling power, but benevolent power,
1:24:25>> but also gives you freedom. And freedom
1:24:28is nice.
1:24:28>> Freedom is nice. And being able to make
1:24:32I'm not just making this up to make life
1:24:34easier.
1:24:35>> Yeah. by way of money or by way of
1:24:38connections. Like we were talking
1:24:39earlier about I know a lot of people who
1:24:41either have or know people with serious
1:24:43medical issues and I can connect them to
1:24:45the
1:24:46>> like to the one of three people that
1:24:48might actually be able to help them when
1:24:50no one else can.
1:24:51>> Like I've got story after story about I
1:24:53don't take credit. I just happen to know
1:24:54the best people in these little
1:24:56subdomains
1:24:57>> and it doesn't always work out that way
1:24:59but a lot of times they're like
1:25:01>> wow.
1:25:02>> And so I'm not the physician. I'm just
1:25:05the concierge. But the fact that I have
1:25:07this job allows me to do that,
1:25:09>> right?
1:25:10>> And the degree allows me to do that.
1:25:12Money doesn't allow me to do that,
1:25:13>> right?
1:25:14>> It's just my network is insane.
1:25:16>> Yeah. No, for sure.
1:25:17>> And the ability to use it for to help
1:25:19other people like and part of that is
1:25:21having people like you on this podcast,
1:25:23>> right? Like I Rob and I sometimes talk
1:25:26like I was like I can't believe it. Like
1:25:27we had like FA Lee on here. It's a
1:25:29colleague of mine at Stanford. You can't
1:25:31get an hour with her at Stanford, but
1:25:32she came here and talked for three hours
1:25:34about AI.
1:25:35>> Yeah.
1:25:35>> Like, and I can share that with the
1:25:37world
1:25:38>> that or share what you're teaching to
1:25:40the world that we're not just having
1:25:41this conversation on a walk
1:25:43>> and we can share it with the world. That
1:25:45to me is like
1:25:46>> power. Now, power
1:25:49>> which is the ability to to be in charge
1:25:51>> to to be the maestro
1:25:53>> to which is to say I I'm I'm going to be
1:25:55in I'm not going to be subject to the
1:25:57authority of another person. Oh,
1:25:59>> that is tricky. Which is which it is
1:26:01tricky to be sure. Now, you're not a
1:26:03vice filled person. I mean, you're a
1:26:05person who's actually you you don't have
1:26:06big problems in these in this regard.
1:26:08But what Aquinas suggested is that when
1:26:10you've eliminated the others that what
1:26:13you found is something that might make
1:26:15you stumble and that might distract you
1:26:17from the things that really matter, the
1:26:19the the ways that you can actually have
1:26:21love in your life. And what the funny
1:26:23thing about it is that if I said, "Okay,
1:26:24just tell me your idol from the very
1:26:26beginning." you might not have
1:26:27eliminated it to that particular point.
1:26:29>> Yeah. Because I think that uh it's it's
1:26:31really an interesting exercise.
1:26:32Obviously, I'm doing this with you now,
1:26:34but I I hope people are doing this in
1:26:36parallel because that's what it's all
1:26:37about. It's not about me and the
1:26:38example.
1:26:38>> Yeah. No, it's we we want people to know
1:26:40their idol.
1:26:41>> Definitely is that the words carry
1:26:44they're loaded words. Money, power, uh
1:26:47honor sounds actually cool until you
1:26:49really dissect it and then you realize
1:26:50it's just as uh you know nuanced as the
1:26:52others. That's that's the ancient that
1:26:54that's how Aquinus would have understood
1:26:56uh holores.
1:26:57>> Yeah.
1:26:58>> Right. Which is not virtuous inherently.
1:27:01[laughter]
1:27:01>> Right. Right. So the words are are can
1:27:04be a little misleading. I will say where
1:27:06I've tended to stumble on the backdrop
1:27:08of all this before people, you know,
1:27:09it's not about avoiding the comments. Um
1:27:11in fact, please comment.
1:27:12>> Yeah, totally. And we love them all.
1:27:14>> And and like and suggest like and
1:27:15[laughter] share. Just kidding.
1:27:16>> Don't forget to subscribe. subscribe
1:27:17button is, you know, but a big part of
1:27:20it also is,
1:27:21>> you know, that of course I'm susceptible
1:27:23to like the lure of pleasure, the lure
1:27:26of I mean like I'm human, right? We're
1:27:28all wired for it, right? The place where
1:27:31I've stumbled consistently is when
1:27:34overresourced in a particular place. I I
1:27:38don't always think about what the full
1:27:40arc of requirement is when trying to I
1:27:45believe in a benevolent way share
1:27:47resources,
1:27:48>> right?
1:27:48>> So, it's much easier to to like connect
1:27:52somebody to somebody and then if it's
1:27:53not going well to be like, well, that's
1:27:55their problem now. as opposed to really
1:27:57continuing to to like make make sure
1:28:00that happens, right? So, sometimes the
1:28:02the big learning for me has been
1:28:05>> whenever over resourced in any area,
1:28:07whether it's money, energy, generosity,
1:28:11whatever, that I need to be careful
1:28:15because the misperception is that
1:28:17because there's more than enough of it
1:28:18for me, I can just share whatever's
1:28:20left,
1:28:21>> right? But there's a hidden cost
1:28:24>> and it's the cost of making sure that
1:28:26all of that goes smoothly.
1:28:28>> That's and that's a cost that's hard to
1:28:30quantify. And the most painful thing in
1:28:32my life nowadays is actually pulling
1:28:35back the places where I I l my team
1:28:37knows this. It's like if I meet someone
1:28:38on the street and they are like they
1:28:40tell me something and then they want to
1:28:41tell me about like they have a question
1:28:43because they have an uncle who has a
1:28:44stroke and like I know a really great
1:28:46person for certain kinds of stroke. I'll
1:28:49take their I'll give them my phone
1:28:50number. Yeah,
1:28:51>> I've given up, you know, like I'll do
1:28:52this whole thing, but then later it's
1:28:54very hard to find the time to make sure
1:28:56that if they're not getting feedback
1:28:58that I can do the the call where I
1:29:00connect the two.
1:29:00>> And so there's this the hardest part for
1:29:02me is I I can't do it. And I got this
1:29:04from my mom.
1:29:05>> She sees a homeless person on the
1:29:06street.
1:29:08>> And when we were kids, we discovered she
1:29:10was putting homeless people up in hotels
1:29:13like and we'd have people living in our
1:29:15garage and like she can't help herself.
1:29:18>> Now she's better about it. Um but it it
1:29:21comes from a good place.
1:29:22>> She wants to fix stuff. She wants to fix
1:29:24stuff. She wants
1:29:25>> people suffering is very very and by the
1:29:28way our vices are our virtues.
1:29:32>> When I'm weak then I'm strong said St.
1:29:33Paul the Apostle. But also when I'm
1:29:35strong then I'm weak. Our strengths and
1:29:37weaknesses are opposite sides of the
1:29:39same coin. The weakness that you have,
1:29:40the idol that you have is also the
1:29:42opposite side of the greatest virtue
1:29:44that you possess. So that's one of the
1:29:46reasons that we shouldn't beat ourselves
1:29:47up about this, but we need to know what
1:29:49it actually is because that's what will
1:29:50actually lead you astray a lot of the
1:29:52time.
1:29:53>> Now, it's it's completely different for
1:29:54me. I would kick out power first,
1:29:57control first. The second thing I'd get
1:29:59rid of is pleasure. I'm a protocols guy,
1:30:01too. I'm very austere, right? I'm every
1:30:05day in the gym and, you know, I don't I
1:30:06eat a very strict diet and Okay. The
1:30:10third thing I would get rid of is money,
1:30:12resources. It's not I mean and and again
1:30:15like let's watch the comments light up.
1:30:17I got it.
1:30:18>> But what does that leave? That leaves
1:30:20honor.
1:30:21>> And the truth is I want people to love
1:30:23me. I want people to love me. I want
1:30:27this. It's so Look, dude. I'm 62 years
1:30:31old and I still want that.
1:30:33>> It feels good. What do you It's not even
1:30:35feeling good. It's like
1:30:37>> I'm not a human being. I'm a human
1:30:39doing. Hm. I'm trying to earn
1:30:42everybody's love. It's so dumb. And I
1:30:44recognize it now. That's power right
1:30:47there. Is power because I know when I'm
1:30:49doing it and and and I'm held
1:30:51accountable for it because my wife does
1:30:52not have this. Absolutely have this. And
1:30:55she'll say, "You're doing that stupid
1:30:56thing again." You know, why would you
1:30:58marginalize the people that you actually
1:30:59love for the adoration of strangers for
1:31:01Pete's sake? Why would you go do that
1:31:02thing that that you know people really
1:31:05want you to do? You want it because you
1:31:06want people to appreciate you is what it
1:31:08comes down to. you I say you're right is
1:31:10the whole point and the whole point is
1:31:12also that this is what I do for a living
1:31:13this is what I study and I'm weak and
1:31:16and I'm frail in this particular way and
1:31:18when I resist that idol when I fight
1:31:20against that idol then I choose the
1:31:22better path and I choose the space of
1:31:24moral aspiration and that space of moral
1:31:26aspiration is to love and be loved
1:31:29that's what the space of moral
1:31:30aspiration that's where it actually
1:31:31takes me to love and be loved not by the
1:31:34strangers not the prestige of the crowd
1:31:37not the the the the the the honor that
1:31:40comes from rising in the hierarchy.
1:31:42We're a tropical kinbased species
1:31:46hierarchically arranged. This the animal
1:31:48impulse comes from rising in our band of
1:31:5030 to 50 hundred gatherers, you know,
1:31:53250,000 years ago. I mean, this is all
1:31:55biologically wired. But when I
1:31:56understand that, then I can actually do
1:31:59what the what the you know that Dante in
1:32:02in the inferno um he he talks it's
1:32:05arranged around the seven deadly sins
1:32:07but he also talks about the seven um the
1:32:10heavenly virtues you know and so so
1:32:12pride humility right envy admiration is
1:32:17what it comes you know this that the
1:32:19heavenly virtue of this is is the of of
1:32:24the four are what you truly want what
1:32:27you truly deeply want in your soul. To
1:32:29love and be loved means that you're
1:32:31spending your time on your faith, the
1:32:34love of the divine, your family, the
1:32:37people that are biologically or by
1:32:39adoption related to you, your friends,
1:32:42the people that you actually choose and
1:32:44serving the whole world through the way
1:32:46that you earn your daily bread, which is
1:32:47to earn your success through your work,
1:32:49faith, family, friends, and work. And
1:32:50then only when you know that that idol,
1:32:53you can pivot to the thing that that
1:32:55your soul actually wants, the thing that
1:32:57you actually hunger for. And that's
1:32:59where real satisfaction comes in. That's
1:33:00where you gain the satisfaction that
1:33:02you've always wanted.
1:33:03>> Can I ask you a question about the
1:33:04adoration piece and applause and that
1:33:06kind of thing.
1:33:07>> So embarrassed.
1:33:08>> No. Well, I'm embar you know I mean it's
1:33:11like that it is it it's a vulnerable
1:33:14place to like reveal cuz the word is is
1:33:17is are tough like power like you know
1:33:18like you know like Hubberman admits that
1:33:20he is driven by no it's like power I
1:33:22want to help people
1:33:23>> no you want you have you want to have
1:33:24control over what you can control it
1:33:26yeah
1:33:27>> yeah and um but so when let's say you
1:33:30you give a lecture to to a a group that
1:33:34um you respect them as an audience
1:33:36whoever happens to be there like you
1:33:37respect your audience which so
1:33:39important, you know, like you um and
1:33:41>> they love their
1:33:42>> and they Yeah. And and and you you get
1:33:45the feedback that you really like you
1:33:47knocked it out of the park. Yeah. You
1:33:49knocked it out of the park.
1:33:50>> When you go back to your room at night,
1:33:52are you the sort of person that thinks
1:33:54about um that and how great it feels or
1:33:57are you thinking about this one thing
1:34:00that you said that you wish you had done
1:34:01differently? Are you the like the one
1:34:02the one thing that I wish I hadn't said
1:34:04kind of person or are you the or are you
1:34:06like basking in it? No, I'm not basking
1:34:08in it. I mean, I'm actually
1:34:09self-critical. I'm thinking about what
1:34:11it could be differently because it wears
1:34:13off and it's eancent. It's like a summer
1:34:15rain.
1:34:15>> You know, the the adoration of strangers
1:34:17feels good in the moment. I mean, in
1:34:19neurochemically, it it wears off very
1:34:21quickly, of course, because what you're
1:34:23getting is, you know, when when you look
1:34:24at people who are deeply addicted to
1:34:25success, it looks very much in in what
1:34:29in under brain scans to people who are
1:34:31actually getting highly glycemic
1:34:33carbohydrate treats or even a hit of
1:34:35cocaine. you know, you win in some
1:34:38little game and and you know, and
1:34:40obviously we were talking about dopamine
1:34:42here is you actually see it's the same
1:34:44thing, but that doesn't last. That's not
1:34:45supposed to last. That's supposed to
1:34:47wear away. And the first thing that
1:34:48somebody wants who's an addict is
1:34:50another hit, whether it's a line of
1:34:52cocaine or another round of applause.
1:34:55>> So, by the time I'm back in the hotel,
1:34:56I'm think
1:34:58that different.
1:34:59>> Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Actually, what it
1:35:00comes down to. But, by the way, we got
1:35:03to know what the solution is to this.
1:35:04And the solution to this is not to say,
1:35:06"Okay, I'm a horrible human being." But
1:35:09[snorts] it's actually to pivot to
1:35:11choosing the path of the man that I want
1:35:14to be.
1:35:15>> You know, I I I I don't give into the
1:35:17animal impulse to stay under the covers
1:35:19past 4:30. The man that I want to be is
1:35:22down in the gym by 4:45.
1:35:23>> 4:45 a.m. [clears throat]
1:35:24>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
1:35:25>> That's right.
1:35:26>> Yeah. I mean, the the man that I want to
1:35:29be um when I'm either thinking about
1:35:33something I did wrong and I'm beating
1:35:34myself up or, you know, wishing there
1:35:36was another round of applause is
1:35:38somebody who is deep in prayer.
1:35:39>> That's the man that I want to be
1:35:41>> because I do know that that my
1:35:45metaphysical fitness depends on this and
1:35:47that's a choice that I can actually
1:35:48make.
1:35:50I have a question about um who we I
1:35:54don't want to say idolize but among
1:35:56humans can you name people
1:36:00alive or dead that um sort of embody or
1:36:04collectively sort of embody who you
1:36:06aspire to be like or do you not put
1:36:08humans in that category because one
1:36:10thing that I realized in this discussion
1:36:12around power and I'm not trying to uh
1:36:14soften anything around that is I've
1:36:17always had this list of people whose
1:36:18like careers and art and music and stuff
1:36:20I really admire. And in looking over
1:36:22that list, I try and like sometimes see
1:36:25like the through lines,
1:36:26>> right?
1:36:27>> And I can tell you that almost all of
1:36:28them brought together unique things
1:36:31based on their past, their
1:36:33circumstances, etc. to to like change
1:36:35the game.
1:36:36>> Like to me, that's kind of the ultimate.
1:36:38It's like
1:36:39>> in our business,
1:36:40>> Yeah.
1:36:40>> people think differently. The paradigm
1:36:42change.
1:36:42>> Yeah. It's like to change the game like
1:36:45um and it for me this is a very
1:36:47important like time space dilation where
1:36:49I can look back on the history of
1:36:51science and the couple of
1:36:52neurobiologists who were there at the
1:36:53beginning like
1:36:54>> Ramoni Kahal you'd say he changed the
1:36:56game because he kind of like
1:36:58>> made the game he created the game
1:37:00basically slicing up brains and
1:37:02understanding function but like but a
1:37:03few people came along even in my career
1:37:06in the time of my active lab career and
1:37:10I was like they really changed the game
1:37:13and then I asked so why did how and why
1:37:16did they change the game and you realize
1:37:18that every technique is fleeting because
1:37:20it gets replaced almost always right and
1:37:22so you start to realize that oh like it
1:37:24was always this unique kind of like
1:37:27artist scientist poet intersection and I
1:37:31realized like oh that that's like that's
1:37:33the thing was people that are like
1:37:34outside the box because they found a
1:37:36unique confluence of things striving for
1:37:38that is way more important to me than
1:37:40quote unquote power Yeah.
1:37:42>> It's like to be able to say like I did
1:37:43it not my way, not their way, but I did
1:37:46it my way. Period.
1:37:48>> Like a unique expression that could only
1:37:50have been me
1:37:52>> coming out of me.
1:37:53>> And I don't And so I'm not in
1:37:56competition with with some with some
1:37:58structure with other people. That to me
1:38:00is above the four idols that you
1:38:03describe.
1:38:03>> No, I get it. I completely get because
1:38:05it's like
1:38:06>> like that's like winning.
1:38:08>> That's what you admire and that's what I
1:38:10really kind of like an ideal type.
1:38:13That's what it actually means to be
1:38:16>> successful. That's what it means to be a
1:38:18success and that's what excellence means
1:38:19to you. That's that's the
1:38:21personification of excellence is
1:38:22actually that kind of intellectual
1:38:23entrepreneurship.
1:38:24>> Yeah. It's almost like it it moves from
1:38:26the because you said like to lead. I
1:38:28actually am not concerned with leading.
1:38:29I also didn't want to be a chairman,
1:38:31right? Like I don't want to run
1:38:32businesses, my podcast. I let someone
1:38:34else do that. He's way better at it than
1:38:35I could ever be. It's what I'm
1:38:38interested in is being outside of that
1:38:41but still ethically completely free.
1:38:45>> Yeah.
1:38:45>> Like I can't lead because I can't show
1:38:47anyone how to
1:38:49>> be me cuz they're them.
1:38:51>> I can show them how to I can get some
1:38:52ideas about how they can be them, but
1:38:54that's like an internal process for
1:38:55them. So that to me is like the ultimate
1:38:57when I think about Ramoni Kahal is a
1:39:00good example who by the way the greatest
1:39:01neurobiologist of all time ever by by
1:39:06huge huge margin
1:39:07>> also is like really into weightlifting
1:39:09he was an artist like he was an
1:39:10incredible like he drew images of the
1:39:12brain and inferred from that function
1:39:14from dead tissue amazing amazing human
1:39:16being like he's an end of one
1:39:19>> but it was the confluence of his
1:39:20interest in physical exercise and neuro
1:39:23anatomy and art that made him. Ramon
1:39:26Kahal, no one else can do that,
1:39:28>> right? Like, so I don't want to be like
1:39:30him.
1:39:31>> No, I got it.
1:39:31>> Because he did it the best. Like, why
1:39:33would you want to be like him ringing?
1:39:35>> You want to be excellent like him, but
1:39:37as Andrew Huberman.
1:39:38>> Exactly. To me, the unique expression
1:39:40and like, you know, we I think we'll
1:39:42eventually get to notions of like not
1:39:43notions. We'll talk a little bit about
1:39:45God and faith because that's actually
1:39:46where you and I connected in person for
1:39:47the first time was talking at Stanford
1:39:50about science. Very openly. But that to
1:39:53me feels I could be misinterpreting the
1:39:55message but I feel like that's what God
1:39:58wants for all of us whether it's and in
1:40:00the different domains of of life.
1:40:02>> Yeah.
1:40:03>> And of course adhering to ethics like
1:40:05there are rules there are structures we
1:40:07have to obey within that but our unique
1:40:09expression.
1:40:10>> I feel like that's why we're here.
1:40:13That's I I tell myself this.
1:40:15>> No like I I completely agree with you
1:40:16and you know so people often ask so who
1:40:18who's your hero? I I don't know. I don't
1:40:21know. my dad, you know. Um,
1:40:24>> you're like Jesus. You say Jesus.
1:40:25>> Jesus. Yeah, I know. It's like like
1:40:27I mean it's like who's hero, but it's
1:40:29like no, I mean Jesus is the master, but
1:40:32the hero it's like the hero. No, it's
1:40:35not like some sort of hero's journey,
1:40:37some yungian, you know, archetype that
1:40:40we're talking about here. I I struggle
1:40:42with that as well. But I do see people
1:40:44that I I deeply admire precisely for
1:40:46this for this reason. So somebody I
1:40:49really admire the guy in my field the
1:40:51social science scientist par excalance
1:40:54is James Q Wilson [snorts] you know
1:40:56James Q Wilson James James Q Wilson who
1:40:58won the Congressional Medal of Honor you
1:41:00know which is pretty hard to do as a
1:41:01social scientist for you know for
1:41:03[snorts] no he died in 2012
1:41:05>> and and he was the greatest political
1:41:07scientist of the 20th century and and
1:41:10somebody I knew he sat sat in on my
1:41:12dissertation defense which went very
1:41:13poorly. I mean, it was rough, man. I had
1:41:16two Nobel Prize winners in economics and
1:41:18James Q. Wilson. I was super nervous and
1:41:20it was it was it was it was not a great
1:41:23dissertation. It got signatures.
1:41:25[laughter]
1:41:26That's the scoreboard effect on that.
1:41:27That's all I can say. It passed.
1:41:29>> But he said to me after that, you know,
1:41:30he had written
1:41:33monumental books. He had done works. He
1:41:35had written a great book called the
1:41:36moral sense. That was the first time
1:41:38that a social scientist had actually
1:41:39used the tools of of empirical social
1:41:43science survey based data to understand
1:41:45the the moral sensibilities, the complex
1:41:47moral sensibilities that they actually
1:41:48possessed and just quantifying it. I
1:41:50read that I said I just want to do that.
1:41:52I want to do that. I don't want to be
1:41:53James Q Wilson though. I want to be
1:41:54Arthur Brooks, you know, and doing it my
1:41:56own in my own way. And he said, you
1:41:58know, at my dissertation defense, he
1:42:00said, you know, nice try. You're going
1:42:02to be fine. When you need something,
1:42:04give me a call. And so some years later,
1:42:07I was an assistant professor at Syracuse
1:42:09at the time. And I was I wrote my first
1:42:11commercial book, my first trade book,
1:42:13and it was about charitable giving. And
1:42:16it was it was it actually changed my
1:42:18life because the president read it for
1:42:20some odd reason and talked about it. And
1:42:22then suddenly I was my career was
1:42:23changed forever as a result of that, for
1:42:25for better and for worse. But when I was
1:42:28working on it, I wrote to James Q.
1:42:29Wilson and I said, "Would you read this
1:42:31manuscript?" And he said, "Sure." I sent
1:42:33it to him. and he said, "You know, I was
1:42:35going to write a book on this, but
1:42:36you've written I don't have to." Um,
1:42:37I'll write the forward.
1:42:38>> Awesome. Unbelievable. Yeah.
1:42:40>> Unbelievable. Later, he recruited me to
1:42:43be the president of the American
1:42:44Enterprise Institute. Uh, because he was
1:42:46on the board of that. And he was on the
1:42:48board until he passed away and then I
1:42:50spoke at his funeral. I had the honor of
1:42:52speaking at his funeral at the at the
1:42:54memorial chapel at Harvard where his
1:42:56funeral was held. And it was just this
1:42:58guy. He was a a one of a kind. And I
1:43:04want to be a social scientist too, but
1:43:05not just like him. Not even studying the
1:43:07same things that he does, but to have
1:43:08this this intense curiosity
1:43:12and and using the tools of science
1:43:14completely in the public interest.
1:43:16That's what I want to do. And so that's
1:43:18what inspires me. So my hero I I guess,
1:43:21but it's the admiration that I have
1:43:23because he was fully alive. He was fully
1:43:26alive in the way that I think that it
1:43:27was his destiny to be in all of us. And
1:43:29everybody watching us, like everybody
1:43:30watching us and listening to us is got
1:43:32their thing. That's what our destiny is
1:43:35to actually find that thing and be truly
1:43:36excellent and use it to serve. Be as
1:43:39excellent as you can possibly be in in
1:43:40being a, you know, drywall hanger and,
1:43:42you know, and and being a cook at a
1:43:44restaurant, in being a college
1:43:45professor, god forbid, being a
1:43:47politician, in the public interest, in
1:43:50the private interest in in in showing
1:43:52people that this is an expression of
1:43:53your love. You see, in this way, it's
1:43:56godly in this way. You know, in the book
1:43:58of Genesis, it's, you know, God created
1:44:00heaven and earth. That was his gig. That
1:44:02was his job. And it was an expression of
1:44:04his love. This is what you and I can do.
1:44:07This is what you do. This is, by the
1:44:09way,
1:44:11you're popular because you're good at
1:44:13your job, for sure. But because you want
1:44:16the best for everybody, because this
1:44:18podcast is an expression of Andrew
1:44:20Huberman's love. That's why it's
1:44:23successful. And everybody can be su
1:44:25successful in their way can be, you
1:44:28know, have their own humor and podcast,
1:44:30not in podcasting necessarily, by
1:44:32actually having it be an expression of
1:44:34your love, love for humanity through the
1:44:36way that you're earning your daily
1:44:37bread. That's the quintessential
1:44:38expression of excellence in my view.
1:44:40That accord with yours?
1:44:41>> Very much so. And I, you know, it occurs
1:44:43to me like, you know, um, and maybe I'm
1:44:48a little bit bothered by this word
1:44:49powering
1:44:51and I'm striving for it to not
1:44:52misconrue, but but if No, no, no, no. I
1:44:55I just I mean, but but I'm I'm embracing
1:44:57it today. But what to me the ultimate
1:45:00win I realized um a few moments ago is
1:45:04like what I'm really trying to do in
1:45:07this podcast thing is I love learning
1:45:10>> and when I find something that I think
1:45:12can be of use to people.
1:45:13>> Yeah.
1:45:14>> Uh I teach it because what's most
1:45:16satisfying to me is if people change
1:45:18their behavior and it leads them to a
1:45:21better place mentally, physically or
1:45:23both. Right. And then they also
1:45:25understand why it did that,
1:45:28>> right?
1:45:28>> And then they pass it along.
1:45:30>> Like and and there's no need for
1:45:32attribution in that,
1:45:34>> right? There's no need for attribution.
1:45:36And I hope that like I have a few
1:45:37friends who are actors, a few friends
1:45:38who are musicians, and I have to imagine
1:45:40that they love acting and playing music,
1:45:42and those sorts of people provide
1:45:44incredible enrichment to my life. I love
1:45:45music. I love I love film and as a
1:45:47consumer. But I've heard them say things
1:45:50like, "Yeah, you know, like you can
1:45:52transport somebody, you can inspire
1:45:53them." And I think ultimately that's
1:45:55what it's about is like I think that we
1:45:56do at our best. I think we all want to
1:46:00find the thing that we love to do, put
1:46:02it out there, and I think we have this
1:46:04sense that it that it could possibly
1:46:06ripple through time without attribution.
1:46:10>> To me, that's like the ultimate power,
1:46:13right?
1:46:13>> Totally. I want to create happiness
1:46:14teachers. I I I want people to go be
1:46:18teachers because that's leverage. I want
1:46:19a better world. I want to lift people up
1:46:21with these ideas. I can't do it by
1:46:23myself. Well, the only reason we have
1:46:25like the microphones and the cameras are
1:46:27here, right, is to ripple it out
1:46:28further. These are lit, you know, they
1:46:30literally amplify things, right? So, but
1:46:32yeah, the the best way to amplifies
1:46:34amplify through space is the internet.
1:46:36The best way to amplify through time
1:46:38might be the internet, but the way to
1:46:41really reinforce that whole thing is to
1:46:44teach people things I believe in a way
1:46:46that they understand the process
1:46:47underneath so that a little bit of it
1:46:50>> so that they can and they pass both
1:46:53things along. This is why I think like
1:46:55cuz nowadays like I could go on any
1:46:58website and just go what are the 10 top
1:46:59things that people on their deathbed say
1:47:02are keys to happiness and I can get a
1:47:04list. Yeah. But people choose to listen
1:47:06to the mechanics of it because there's
1:47:09something about the human brain. I'm
1:47:10certain that when we understand a bit
1:47:12about the mechanics that gives rise to
1:47:14that thing,
1:47:15>> that's our buy in. That's the per that's
1:47:17the cost of admission and then it
1:47:19becomes worth something. That's the
1:47:20effort that comes before the
1:47:22>> Yeah. Well, you know what they say in
1:47:22medical schools? They say at Stanford
1:47:24Medical School to become a surgeon, you
1:47:25need to watch one, do one, teach one.
1:47:27>> Watch one, do one, teach one. And and
1:47:29you know the truth is that the that the
1:47:30the process of learning and you know
1:47:32there's a ton of research on how people
1:47:34learn and the way that people learn best
1:47:36is that they have to learn how something
1:47:38works then they have to actually
1:47:40practice it then they actually have to
1:47:41teach it. So my dad was a math professor
1:47:44he was a brilliant biostatistician. I
1:47:46one time watched him as a math professor
1:47:48giving an advanced calculus lecture and
1:47:5090 minutes no notes. It was like
1:47:52watching Yasha hyitz and I was old
1:47:54enough that I had admiration for him. I
1:47:56was in my 20s before he died. He died
1:47:58young, but I was still in my 20s and he
1:47:59was still going. And and I said, "Dad,"
1:48:01I was like, "That was a virtuosa
1:48:03performance. How'd you do
1:48:04[clears throat] it?" He said, "I've done
1:48:06it hundreds of times." And and he said,
1:48:08"The process is simple. You learn
1:48:10actually what's happening. You look at
1:48:11the proof. You admire the science and
1:48:14then you actually do a ton of problems
1:48:17and then finally you explain it over and
1:48:18over and over and over again." And the
1:48:20same thing is true for golf. And the
1:48:21same thing is true for speaking Spanish.
1:48:23And the same thing is true for for
1:48:24understanding how to live a better life.
1:48:26You need to know the science. The reason
1:48:27that I'm so fascinated with the science
1:48:29and I want to talk about it in my
1:48:30podcast every week is like it's so cool
1:48:34when you understand the science then
1:48:35you're more likely to change your habits
1:48:37and then you're more likely to spread it
1:48:39and share it with other people in which
1:48:40case you will be a virtuoso in it and
1:48:43you'll actually keep the cycle unbroken.
1:48:46>> That's magic.
1:48:47>> That's like it's [clears throat] a it's
1:48:48a complete miracle that that's actually
1:48:50how we do it. and and we have this
1:48:52moment, this miraculous moment where you
1:48:55and I can actually talk about serious
1:48:57science. We're not I mean this is not a
1:48:59doctoral seminar at Stanford or Harvard
1:49:01to be sure, but we're we're talking
1:49:03about the real thing and people will
1:49:04watch this like yeah that's like you
1:49:06know they're they're learning some
1:49:07things and they're going to go to
1:49:07someone going to go to PubMed and we're
1:49:09going to have show notes and and the
1:49:11whole thing and and then we talk about
1:49:12here's how you use it. Okay. So, don't
1:49:14when you go to the beach, make sure that
1:49:16you're going to a beach with a friend.
1:49:17And here's your pro your book is called
1:49:19Protocols for a reason with several
1:49:21hundred pages of footnotes. Right now,
1:49:23go share it. You know how many times
1:49:25people have told me, "Hey, you know what
1:49:26about coffee? You should wait for 90
1:49:28minutes because you know the the
1:49:30caffeine molecule the caffeine molecule
1:49:32blocks the A2A adenosine uh receptors
1:49:35and and you won't get the crash at 2 in
1:49:37the afternoon." I'm like, "Yeah, I know
1:49:39where you got that. I know where you got
1:49:41that. You got that from Andrew." and and
1:49:43without attribution because they don't
1:49:45know they got it from you. But the whole
1:49:46point is the world's better. The world
1:49:49is better. That's how we can bless the
1:49:51world with what we actually do. And
1:49:53that's so great. I'd like to take a
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1:51:00raspberry, the citrus, and I really love
1:51:01the lemonade flavor. So, if you'd like
1:51:03to try Element, you can go to
1:51:05drinkelement.com/huberman
1:51:07to claim a free element sample pack with
1:51:09any purchase. Again, that's
1:51:11drinkelement.com/huberman
1:51:13to claim a free sample pack.
1:51:15>> So, we got through enjoyment,
1:51:17satisfaction, and meaning.
1:51:19>> We got through enjoyment, satisfaction,
1:51:20not meaning.
1:51:21>> Well, we have not gotten all the way
1:51:22through, but we um So, tell us more
1:51:24about meaning. So, we got the idols.
1:51:26Yeah.
1:51:26>> So, those are the things to be aware of
1:51:28and
1:51:28>> that will block your satisfaction that
1:51:30they promise satisfaction and they don't
1:51:32deliver.
1:51:33>> They won't deliver the satisfaction that
1:51:35you seek, but but your brain tells you
1:51:37that they will. That will put you on
1:51:38what we in in my community call the
1:51:40hedonic treadmill.
1:51:42>> Hideonic simply means feelings or or or
1:51:45in your vernacular, you know, is
1:51:47activity. The lyic system
1:51:48>> and and that the treadmill means that
1:51:50the the lyic system resets because
1:51:52emotions are not there to give you a
1:51:54nice day. They give you, you know, set
1:51:55of signals about threats and
1:51:56opportunities so you can react and they
1:51:58reset immediately.
1:52:00>> You always think they're going to last
1:52:01forever. So, you have an incentive to
1:52:03either avoid or approach things.
1:52:05>> This is the uh you don't see it much
1:52:07anymore, but there used to be a a bumper
1:52:10sticker out there that said that the the
1:52:13person who dies with the most toys wins.
1:52:15>> Yeah. Right.
1:52:15>> It's that one. Uh which reminds me about
1:52:17quantification. Can I share this with
1:52:18you? It's not it's not it's not my
1:52:20original idea, but Anolky, Dr. Dr. Anna
1:52:23Olympia,
1:52:23>> she's been on I've had her on my podcast
1:52:25and and yeah, she's fantastic.
1:52:26>> Yeah, she's amazing. She she told me
1:52:28that there's something you um
1:52:29interesting uh one particularly
1:52:33interesting lens on any behavior is
1:52:35whether the person tends to quantify
1:52:38that behavior very carefully and kind of
1:52:41covet the thing. She said addicts will
1:52:43like constantly check back and see how
1:52:45many like pills they have, how many bags
1:52:47they have, how many um uh people who are
1:52:51obsessed, perhaps even addicted to
1:52:53making money will constantly check every
1:52:56single day.
1:52:56>> And it's and it's cloaked as feeling as
1:52:59the need to feel safe, but it has
1:53:00nothing to do with that. It's the libic
1:53:02system is very very good
1:53:04>> at charting profits and losses
1:53:07>> in whatever context that like making
1:53:10lists, quantification. So, we have to be
1:53:12very This is not a a call to not track
1:53:15your sleep or something or your HRV.
1:53:17>> But, by the way,
1:53:18>> Mhm.
1:53:18>> it can be a problem. It can it can be a
1:53:21I check it fitness trackers.
1:53:22>> I check my sleep once a week against a
1:53:24subjective quick line
1:53:26>> or your HRV or
1:53:27>> Yeah.
1:53:28>> Yeah. So anyway, I I it's something that
1:53:30I we don't hear often enough even in the
1:53:32neurobiology uh crowd that the libic
1:53:36system loves to quantify and if we get
1:53:39to the extreme of quantification in a
1:53:41given area we um of life of behavior of
1:53:45obsession
1:53:47it very likely not always but very
1:53:49likely reflects that that healthy
1:53:51behavior has become either an obsession
1:53:53or or full-blown addiction which I find
1:53:55really interesting.
1:53:56>> So interesting. So what are we what are
1:53:57we actually what is the lyic system
1:53:58actually trying to do with that kind of
1:54:00control that that's expressed through
1:54:02quantification
1:54:02>> never experience the drop. It's like a
1:54:04way it's not getting more of but it's
1:54:07it's in the getting more of it's it's
1:54:10it's it's right you're you're working
1:54:11against losses by telling yourself you
1:54:13have this
1:54:14>> it's based on loss aversion.
1:54:15>> It's loss aversion. Thank you. Yes. It's
1:54:17based on loss aversion. And I said it's
1:54:19funny. She said I said what do you mean?
1:54:20She said, "Oh yeah, like people who are
1:54:22are like addicted to like uh certain
1:54:24kinds of barbituates or painkillers or
1:54:26whatever will like line them up and like
1:54:28look at them and count them." There's a
1:54:29very pathologic uh instance of this
1:54:31which is very tragic too uh because they
1:54:33often die sadly. But uh one of the
1:54:36hallmark traits of like true anorexia is
1:54:39that the these reward circuits become
1:54:41such that the aversion of food becomes
1:54:43rewarding.
1:54:44>> Uhhuh.
1:54:44>> Which is
1:54:45>> you know deadly in its ultimate form.
1:54:48>> And
1:54:50people with true anorexia can look at an
1:54:53article of food and they have a
1:54:54calculator that can tell you within a
1:54:57very small margin how many calories, how
1:54:59much fat, how much protein. They they
1:55:01know they can they're like visual
1:55:03computers when it comes to food, right?
1:55:05And food aversion avoiding that stuff
1:55:07becomes their it's like a the addiction
1:55:10the the pleasure pathways get all
1:55:12inverted and they off it's the most
1:55:13deadly of the psychiatric disorders.
1:55:15That's an extreme pathological case. But
1:55:17she said heroin addicts who you would
1:55:20think can't get their life together can
1:55:21tell you exactly how much heroin they
1:55:23have and how much they they think
1:55:25they're going to get how much things
1:55:27they're often very good at math
1:55:28>> you know they understand you know and so
1:55:31quantification is kind of a hallmark
1:55:32feature of the of these rewards these
1:55:35reinforcement circuitries I thought
1:55:37perhaps that's an interesting point that
1:55:39I don't think we discuss enough so when
1:55:41I think about whether something is a an
1:55:43addiction a compulsion unhealthy or
1:55:46healthy the pursuit like how tightly am
1:55:48I quantifying every little bit of it and
1:55:51thinking about what I've done like you
1:55:52know
1:55:53>> yeah how many articles are on my VA you
1:55:55know whatever you know because we
1:55:56quantify your success and the more that
1:55:57we look at the you know you're not
1:55:59trying to pat yourself on the back
1:56:00you're trying to make sure that you're
1:56:01not falling behind
1:56:02>> I remember followers on you know I do
1:56:04think the social media platforms have
1:56:06have
1:56:08>> intentionally brought this in
1:56:09>> it's not like the number of likes can be
1:56:12reinforcing some but the number of
1:56:14followers people are monitoring their
1:56:16increases and decreases and they they
1:56:18kind of covet them.
1:56:19>> Yes, absolutely. And and the rate of
1:56:21change of your followers, for example,
1:56:22>> and the media will say like so and so
1:56:23lost x number of followers or whatever.
1:56:25Like it's like a thing. So I think
1:56:27there's something there around
1:56:28quantification.
1:56:28>> Wait till your book comes out. Wait till
1:56:30you experience the New York Times
1:56:31bestseller list for the first time.
1:56:33>> Oh, it's incredible. It's incredible.
1:56:34You know Ryan Holidayiday, right? You
1:56:36ever had him on your show?
1:56:36>> I have not had him on the show, but I'm
1:56:39great. and and you know he he one time
1:56:40he said to me it's like I was sure that
1:56:43I was finally going to feel like
1:56:44completely alive if I if I someday he
1:56:47said I'm going to I'm going to visualize
1:56:48it I'm going to have a number one New
1:56:49York Times bestseller and he said and
1:56:51finally it happened and one week later I
1:56:54got knocked off the list by Trump's kid
1:56:57[laughter]
1:56:59>> Baron
1:57:01>> no I don't know one of his sons but you
1:57:03know it's like I don't know and and and
1:57:05his whole point is that it's so absurd
1:57:08because it's completely arbit arbitary,
1:57:09right?
1:57:10>> The metric is arbitrary,
1:57:11>> but what you're trying to do is you're
1:57:13trying to quantify your sense of self.
1:57:15>> Am I enough yet? Am I good enough yet?
1:57:17Am I enough yet? And so on the one hand,
1:57:20you're actually talking about the
1:57:21addiction. But one of the things that I
1:57:22see again and again and again and again
1:57:23is that people are trying to prove to
1:57:25themselves that they actually are enough
1:57:27and and they don't feel like they are.
1:57:29And the way that they earn it is
1:57:31actually by looking at the scoreboard.
1:57:32This is what a lot of wealthy people do.
1:57:34It's what a lot of academics do. It's
1:57:35like how many what's this? What's his h
1:57:37index? You know, like how high is the H
1:57:40index? And oh yeah, so and so is such a
1:57:41big shot. H index is like 36. Joke and
1:57:46nobody even knows what that means,
1:57:47>> right? 1% of the people watching us, but
1:57:49you and I know what that means.
1:57:52>> Yeah. Because it's about impact, right?
1:57:54Ultimately, people or they tell
1:57:55themselves it's that. But putting a a
1:57:57numerical score on something, I mean,
1:57:59the brain has circuits that are pretty
1:58:01much hardwired for counting.
1:58:03>> Yeah. I mean, my dog isn't as smart as
1:58:05my assistant's dog. He has a a hurting
1:58:07dog. They can count. They know how many
1:58:10people in he has he has a little major
1:58:12uh uh
1:58:13>> they look at you like it's like you look
1:58:15at like, "Stop judging."
1:58:16>> His dog is tracking how many in the
1:58:19group are here and how many are missing.
1:58:21That's what makes them really good at
1:58:22their job. And that's where they get
1:58:23rewarded by making sure they're all in
1:58:25the
1:58:25>> And here's the interesting part about
1:58:26this, Andrew. that function, that
1:58:29quantification function, that that the
1:58:31essentializing function of how much,
1:58:34that's what we're really good at using
1:58:36the left hemisphere of our brains.
1:58:37That's that whole theory of hemispheric
1:58:39lateralization that McGillchrist brought
1:58:41back. When I was a kid, there's right
1:58:42brain, left brain people, right people
1:58:43are artsy and left brain people are
1:58:45analytical. That's not right. But the
1:58:47how to and what side requires hardcore
1:58:50quantification, and that's a
1:58:51fundamentally a leftbrain function. The
1:58:54right side, that's complicated. Those
1:58:55are complicated problems, solvable but
1:58:57complicated problems if you've got the
1:58:59data. The right side of the brain deals
1:59:01fundamentally more with complex
1:59:04questions which don't have quantifiable
1:59:06answers. All they have is understanding.
1:59:08All they have is intuition. That's the
1:59:10why side of your brain, not the how to
1:59:12and what side. And that's where meaning
1:59:14resides, which is the last macronutrient
1:59:17of this. the right side of our brain,
1:59:18the the the the the love side, the
1:59:20meaning side, the God side, the the
1:59:23complex side, all the problems that are
1:59:26most important to you, but you'll never
1:59:27solve. I mean, my car is left
1:59:30hemisphere. My marriage is right
1:59:32hemisphere. I will never solve my
1:59:34marriage. Never. I mean, before we
1:59:36stepped in here, my wife texted me. Good
1:59:38luck. I love you. She does. I'm going to
1:59:40call her later. She might be pissed off
1:59:42at me. I don't know.
1:59:45I don't know. I've been married 35
1:59:47years, Andrew. I don't know.
1:59:49>> I mean, she's Spanish, so it's really
1:59:50complex, but you get my point, right? I
1:59:53do.
1:59:53>> And and [laughter] and but but this is
1:59:56the thing, and this is the this is the
1:59:58problem that we face. You need an
2:00:00integrated brain. You get two
2:00:02hemispheres for a reason. And a corpus
2:00:03colossum to to connect between the two
2:00:05hemispheres. You get that because you
2:00:07got the the I'm going to go to work. I'm
2:00:09going to earn money. How to and what?
2:00:11Why? Because I love my family. Because I
2:00:13want to create value. because I want to
2:00:15do something important in the world.
2:00:17Right hemisphere, left hemisphere, right
2:00:18hemisphere. And when that's cut off and
2:00:20when you're stuck in the left
2:00:22hemisphere, for example, looking at your
2:00:24phone 205 times a day and taking, you
2:00:27know, an endless algorithm of useless
2:00:29information is fed to you, then meaning
2:00:32will be absent because you can only
2:00:35assess it on the complex side. And
2:00:37that's the biggest problem we face. You
2:00:38want to know the biggest crisis we face
2:00:40in happiness? It's meaning. And that's
2:00:41why [snorts]
2:00:43>> so how can somebody take steps to enrich
2:00:48the um the amount and the type of the
2:00:52array of meaning in in their life. You
2:00:55and I have done both a lot of work um in
2:00:57the world of addiction personally and
2:01:00professionally. And addiction is
2:01:02unbelievably interesting. It's endlessly
2:01:05fascinating how the human brain is is is
2:01:07captured. And and one of the things that
2:01:09you find is when people finally are not
2:01:12in the grip of addiction, there's three
2:01:14things that have to happen. Number one
2:01:15is they get pissed. That's what all
2:01:18addicts do. They they they get pissed
2:01:20and they rebel and they're like, "No, no
2:01:22more." You ever seen, you know, and
2:01:24you've seen people in 12step programs
2:01:25and they're like they might laugh about
2:01:28the crazy things that happened to them,
2:01:30but they finally like no more. I'm not
2:01:33going to put up with this anymore. You
2:01:34got to get pissed and rebel. The second
2:01:36thing that they do is they actually they
2:01:38understand something about the mechanism
2:01:41of becoming deaddicted and it's
2:01:43different in different ways. You're
2:01:44addicted to gambling, you're addicted to
2:01:45pornography, if you're addicted to
2:01:46alcohol, addicted to drugs, there's
2:01:48different mechanisms for becoming
2:01:49deaddicted. And of course, that's that's
2:01:51very complicated and very very hard and
2:01:54it requires science and you know and and
2:01:56and clinical practice etc etc. But the
2:01:58last part is actually the most difficult
2:02:00which is living in a new way living with
2:02:03you. You know, it's like it's one of the
2:02:06things that alcoholics always do. They
2:02:07always do this is they move. They always
2:02:10move. And they're like, "Dude, if I
2:02:12move, I'm it's like all these losers
2:02:15that are around me and I'm not going to
2:02:16see any of those people and I'm not
2:02:18going to be living upstairs from a
2:02:19liquor store and for God's sake, moving
2:02:22is going to do the trick. I'm going to
2:02:23change my circumstances." And of course,
2:02:24it never works because the first thing
2:02:26that jumps out of your suitcase is you
2:02:29with your alcoholic brain. That's the
2:02:32problem. And so you have to learn to
2:02:33live with you is the hard thing that
2:02:36actually comes from this. We [snorts]
2:02:38are deeply deeply deeply addicted. We're
2:02:40deeply technologically addicted. We're
2:02:42hooked into this thing. We all know
2:02:43this. You've talked about it at Infin
2:02:46Item. So have I. John Height, who's been
2:02:47on your show, has talked about the the
2:02:49affliction that we actually have. That's
2:02:51what we have to do. My work is
2:02:53fundamentally about how to rage against
2:02:55the machine to get pissed off enough.
2:02:58And even more than that, it's
2:03:00fundamentally about how to live with
2:03:01you, how to live differently. Cuz when
2:03:03you live with you, then you're in the
2:03:05right hemisphere of your brain. And you
2:03:07have to have right hemispheric
2:03:08experiences. Which, by the way, my
2:03:10great-grandfather, Leroy Brooks, he was
2:03:13in the right hemisphere all day long. He
2:03:15spent all day looking at a mule's butt.
2:03:18And he never came home and said to my
2:03:19great-grandmother, "Honey, I had a panic
2:03:21attack behind a mule today." No. And he
2:03:24also had never said, you know, my life
2:03:26is so boring.
2:03:28And and part of the reason was because
2:03:29his brain wasn't broken. His brain was
2:03:31working the way it was actually supposed
2:03:32to. But that's not ordinary today. And
2:03:35so what we need to do number one is we
2:03:37need to break the cycle. And then we
2:03:39need to live in an old-fashioned way.
2:03:42That's what it comes down to. That's how
2:03:43we find the meaning in our lives. And
2:03:45and breaking the cycle, by the way, I
2:03:47mean, we all know the research. You've
2:03:48had it on your show. I've taken huge
2:03:51amounts of knowledge from you
2:03:53>> on this. You can break the cycle of of
2:03:55technological addiction in your life
2:03:57simply by doing first hour of the day,
2:03:58last hour of the day, and meal times
2:04:00simply doing that. There's tons of
2:04:02research that shows that the
2:04:03neurokcognitive programming that happens
2:04:05in your first hour awake, the
2:04:07relationship programming and the sleep
2:04:08architecture that you wire in the last
2:04:10hour of your day and then and then and
2:04:12then the the the neuropeptides that
2:04:14you'll actually elicit by eating with
2:04:16other people without devices. Your bra
2:04:17your your relationship to technology
2:04:19will change, but you got to break the
2:04:21cycle. And there's tons of resources out
2:04:23there. How [snorts] do you live in a
2:04:24different way? Well, how do people
2:04:27illuminate the right hemisphere of their
2:04:29brains? They they they ask ungooable
2:04:32questions,
2:04:33>> right? Like why am I alive for? What
2:04:36would I give my life? You know, the deep
2:04:37philosophical questions. And that's what
2:04:40philosophy and spirituality and religion
2:04:42bring to you is the deep questions that
2:04:45are fundamentally ungooable. And that's
2:04:46one of the reasons that the hemispheric
2:04:48lateralization literature shows that
2:04:50when you're when you're in these spaces
2:04:53that your right hemisphere is
2:04:54fundamentally illuminated. You can train
2:04:57a gorilla to answer all kinds of
2:04:58questions but not ask interesting
2:05:00fundamental questions. That's humanity.
2:05:03That's godlike is to ask questions. It's
2:05:05to fall in love as a right hemispheric
2:05:09experience. It's deep deep mystery. It's
2:05:11like I that's the reason it's so scary.
2:05:14I don't know. I can't solve this
2:05:17problem. Somebody answer this question
2:05:18for me. No, man. You got to live it. You
2:05:21got to live it for the end of your days.
2:05:23That's why finding your calling. Why you
2:05:25and I were we have so much meaning
2:05:27through our work because we're living
2:05:29our calling. This is what we're meant to
2:05:31do. That's why a calling is what you're
2:05:32meant to do. It has the word meaning in
2:05:34it. That's why worshiping God, living in
2:05:37the the luminescent divine. That's why
2:05:40trying to become a syasi as the Indians
2:05:43would say is so critically important.
2:05:45That's why beauty, moral beauty,
2:05:47artistic beauty, natural beauty, these
2:05:49are right hemispheric experiences. And
2:05:51that's why suffering is so important
2:05:53because suffering helps you understand
2:05:55the meaning of your life per se.
2:05:58Suffering is where everybody's like when
2:05:59did you know who you really really were?
2:06:01How did you know what you were made of?
2:06:02They'll tell you something bad. Oh, that
2:06:04week at the beach in Etha.
2:06:07No. When my mom died, I loved her. When
2:06:12somebody left me at the altar, when I
2:06:14got fired, when I lost my business, god
2:06:18forbid, when I lost a child, people look
2:06:20back and they say, "That was the moment.
2:06:23That was when I knew." Why? Because
2:06:25that's when we were truly integrated.
2:06:26That's when we became integrated human
2:06:28beings. That's what it means to be fully
2:06:30alive, to find meaning. And ultimately,
2:06:32that is the path to happiness.
2:06:34>> Let that sink in for people. That's the
2:06:38real wisdom. And I I I'm going to stop
2:06:40you cuz I know you're super humble and
2:06:42you're going to pass it off on to
2:06:43someone else or something else. But um
2:06:45uh you really have a gift. Uh and it it
2:06:48comes through.
2:06:49>> Thank you, Andrew. That means a lot
2:06:50coming from you.
2:06:51>> Yeah, you really do because it like a
2:06:54lot of different ways people can say
2:06:55important things, but sometimes things
2:06:57just land and they just need to sit for
2:06:59a sec. So, um,
2:07:01>> I have some questions from that were
2:07:03prompted in your book, but I want to
2:07:05make sure that we return to this notion
2:07:06of faith. It's not something we talk a
2:07:08lot about on this podcast. I've talked
2:07:09about as a guest on other podcasts, but
2:07:11but you and I had a conversation about
2:07:12that. And I think probably by the time
2:07:14that this episode airs,
2:07:16>> that conversation at Stanford will also
2:07:18be public.
2:07:19>> Yes.
2:07:19>> And I recommend people watch it because
2:07:22that was really moving for me to have
2:07:25that conversation with you.
2:07:26to talk about your journey and you know
2:07:28the the the
2:07:30I mean it's really easy to get into the
2:07:33the physical fitness of life but the
2:07:35metaphysical fitness of life is a
2:07:37different
2:07:38>> different experience.
2:07:39>> The real like eye opener the first one
2:07:42for me was oh like
2:07:44striving for perfection it it might be
2:07:48perfection in quotes might be the goal
2:07:51but like no one attains that no human
2:07:53attains that. So be careful to not ask
2:07:56humans for answers that are not
2:07:59>> possible to come from human beings. And
2:08:01that's where that eventually moved to a
2:08:03a a real a real faith, a belief in God,
2:08:06a uh a prayer practice that is at least
2:08:09for me it's it's the most consistent
2:08:12feature of my life for the last now
2:08:14almost 3 years. And it's been
2:08:15interesting to be in a relationship
2:08:16where we've like gone to church together
2:08:18and and to pray together or to just pray
2:08:21with somebody, right? And when [snorts]
2:08:22we parted ways at Stanford after the
2:08:24Veraritoss meeting, um it was so
2:08:27interesting because we said goodbye. We
2:08:28did the usual like hug like, "See you
2:08:29soon, brother. Look me up." And you
2:08:31said, "I'll pray for you." And you said,
2:08:33"And if you don't mind, pray for me,
2:08:35too." And I've been doing that. And it's
2:08:37it's a Now, some people might hear this
2:08:39and be like, "Oh, boy. Here we go."
2:08:40Couple of scientists talking about
2:08:42>> But if one just like entertains the
2:08:45possibility that maybe humans don't have
2:08:47all the answers.
2:08:48>> Yeah. That's like a great vista to like
2:08:51skeptically look out. Yeah,
2:08:53>> that's kind of how I think felt like a
2:08:55couple of years ago. It's kind of like
2:08:58and then you know over time I've
2:08:59migrated very far forward. But I think
2:09:02that the whole thing of being um
2:09:06like faith I realize isn't this thing
2:09:09that one necessarily especially like me
2:09:10if you didn't grow up with a lot of it
2:09:12in your family you know just like run
2:09:13and fall like in like like new best
2:09:15friend you know [laughter] it takes some
2:09:17it it doesn't have to happen that way
2:09:20but I think people see that
2:09:20>> and if it does it can be very brittle by
2:09:22the way
2:09:22>> and people see baptisms and they assume
2:09:24okay like into the water and you just
2:09:26like embrace right
2:09:27>> born again
2:09:27>> right
2:09:28>> right it's this like like thick black
2:09:30line that you
2:09:31type thing. And and one thing that I've
2:09:33learned from observing you and from
2:09:35>> conversations with you is that like
2:09:39>> it's allowed to be gradual.
2:09:41>> Yeah.
2:09:42>> You it's okay
2:09:44>> to be skeptical, to move forward, to
2:09:46move back, to um to explore, to to
2:09:50wonder like because that's all the stuff
2:09:51of being of having a human brain.
2:09:53>> Yeah.
2:09:54>> And God probably wants that for us.
2:09:56>> Yeah. And so I' I've been very very
2:09:59moved by your teachings on what at
2:10:01Veraritoss that day because for those
2:10:03that haven't seen it yet and and weren't
2:10:05there, it was very clear that there was
2:10:06like a seasoned pro in there. Arthur
2:10:08grew up with a lot of structured
2:10:10religion and prayer practice in his in
2:10:11his home and I did not and coming to
2:10:13this rather late. So I was like the
2:10:15newbie and it was so much it was so
2:10:17liberating for me to be on a stage where
2:10:19in a room full of people where I was
2:10:21certain I was in the bottom 1% of
2:10:23knowledgeable about the topic and that
2:10:25was what I could talk about and not
2:10:27knowing. Right. It was so beautiful the
2:10:30humility that you actually brought to
2:10:31that to say I don't know. I don't know
2:10:33man. I'm just fumbling around here. I'm
2:10:35just doing my best. I what what I have
2:10:37written on my heart is that there is
2:10:38something here and I want more.
2:10:40>> And this is somebody who's you
2:10:42>> that's it. By the way, this is
2:10:44>> according to the you know the great
2:10:45sages. This is not proof of God but it's
2:10:49evidence of something. Evidence of the
2:10:51existence of water is thirst. Evidence
2:10:54of the existence of sex is sexual
2:10:55desire.
2:10:57We want and there are no
2:10:58anthropologically any evidence of
2:11:00societies that are systematically
2:11:02secular. On the contrary, all human
2:11:04societies that we've been able to
2:11:05ascertain have a sense of the divine,
2:11:08have a sense of the things that we
2:11:10actually cannot see and we have an
2:11:12innate desire for it. Not every single
2:11:14person watching us and not everybody in
2:11:16the exact same way. This is something
2:11:18that's characteristic of humanity.
2:11:19Otherwise, it would be absolutely
2:11:21evolved out of us. And by the way,
2:11:22that's evidence
2:11:24that the divine exists is that we want
2:11:27the divine.
2:11:28>> It's our desire. It's like the thirst.
2:11:30>> It's evidence of of an appetite is
2:11:33evidence of the existence of its object.
2:11:36That's a classic philosophical argument.
2:11:40It's and and and again, that's not ev
2:11:42that's not evidence that God exists.
2:11:43That's not proof that God exists because
2:11:44you can't prove it. that faith is is is
2:11:48belief in a non in something that is
2:11:50fundamentally based on a non-estable
2:11:51hypothesis which is super hard for you
2:11:53and me because testable hypothesis
2:11:55that's where the action is. That's how
2:11:58we got hired at these fancy universities
2:12:00is testing testable hypothesis and yet
2:12:02the essence of living on the edge of the
2:12:05adventure of life as a scientist is to
2:12:08be in the realm of non-estable
2:12:10hypotheses of things that you deeply
2:12:12know in your heart exist. That's
2:12:14hardcore. That's what I want. That's the
2:12:17That's the bite out of life that I want
2:12:18to take.
2:12:19>> But in keeping with this analogy earlier
2:12:22about anorexia, and I'm not trying to
2:12:24insult anyone here. I'm also speaking
2:12:26about,
2:12:27>> you know, many many people whom I deeply
2:12:30respect who will say, "I don't have that
2:12:32craving. I don't they don't have that
2:12:34that wish. They don't have that thirst."
2:12:36Right?
2:12:36>> And I can imagine there probably two
2:12:38responses to that. One is that um
2:12:40something has been um deafly slid in
2:12:43front of them to give them the illusion
2:12:45that they're getting that thing, but
2:12:47it's not that thing, right? That they've
2:12:49made other aspects of life their I don't
2:12:52want to say their god, but it sort of
2:12:53filled in that that
2:12:54>> maybe the terror of death, all that
2:12:56Ernest Becker stuff and Yeah.
2:12:58>> Yeah. Or at the other extreme, it could
2:12:59be a sort of um spiritual anorexia,
2:13:02right? Like the circuits have like let's
2:13:04give them some credit. Maybe the
2:13:05circuits have actually modified to the
2:13:07point where the reward is in not wanting
2:13:10to satisfy the cra the craving cuz the
2:13:13brain will do this too. This is what's
2:13:15so weird about these uh uh reinforce I I
2:13:18prefer the word reinforcement to reward
2:13:20because it involves a it's it's more uh
2:13:23accurate because it's about closing a
2:13:25loop with desire and behavior. Reset
2:13:28desire behavior.
2:13:29>> That's the wanting, learning, liking
2:13:31cycle. It's based on reinforcement,
2:13:32>> right? So the reinforce like dopamine
2:13:34and reinforcement always works. Dopamine
2:13:36and reward it's complicated like you can
2:13:38stimulate dopamine through pain
2:13:40[clears throat]
2:13:41>> and no and part of it is the offset of
2:13:43pain. It's rewarding.
2:13:44>> This is one of the reasons that heroin
2:13:46addicts like the feel of the pinch of
2:13:48the needle going into the vein,
2:13:51>> right? That that that part that is the
2:13:53pain is part of the reward per se
2:13:54because it's actually reinforcing the
2:13:56behavioral pattern. Exactly your point.
2:13:58If there was such a thing as a a mild
2:14:02spiritual anorexia where people are
2:14:04actually getting pleasure from the fact
2:14:06that they are not interested in any of
2:14:08that
2:14:09>> and they got enough and they feel good
2:14:11not knowing right
2:14:12>> you hear this and I want to give um in
2:14:14fairness I want to acknowledge those
2:14:16people exist
2:14:17>> and they're like good with the fact that
2:14:20they don't have a relationship like a
2:14:23higher power relationship of belief in
2:14:24God they don't have faith they don't
2:14:26seem to have this thirst
2:14:28And the lack of it almost sounds in some
2:14:30cases like it's rewarding to them.
2:14:32>> There's a pride that actually comes from
2:14:34being nun, not an nu, n o n e. It's a
2:14:37designation. It's an identity actually.
2:14:39It's who I am as a person. I don't
2:14:41actually need that.
2:14:42>> And and by the way, there are all very
2:14:45compelling explanations that are not
2:14:47consistent or necessarily consistent
2:14:49with the idea that there's an all-
2:14:50knowing, allloving God. I mean Steven
2:14:53Cave at Cambridge has written a has a
2:14:55really beautiful book called
2:14:56immortality. Have you actually seen it?
2:14:58Have you read it? And and he's a
2:14:59philosopher and he talks about the fact
2:15:00that the human brain is able to is able
2:15:02to cap to capture the concept of
2:15:05physical death. You know you're going to
2:15:07die and you're you're completely
2:15:09comfortable in that knowledge. You don't
2:15:11might not like it. You might not want it
2:15:12now, but you know you're going to die.
2:15:14But your brain is incapable of of
2:15:16understanding non-existence. So, you
2:15:18know you're going to die, but you can't
2:15:20understand non-existence because that's
2:15:21goes beyond our cognitive capacities.
2:15:24And so, you got to resolve it. One way
2:15:26to deal with it is to not deal with it,
2:15:28to never think about it. Stay drunk and
2:15:30high or stay busy and be a complete
2:15:32workaholic. Stay busy. Another way to
2:15:35deal with it is to create a resolution
2:15:37that says, "I'm going to die, but I'm
2:15:38I'm going to continue to exist." And so,
2:15:41I can understand that. And that would be
2:15:43a social explanation for the concept of
2:15:44religion. Some neurobiologists, you
2:15:47know, back in the day in the 1990s and
2:15:49early 2000s were doing work on the God
2:15:51module in the brain and they were using
2:15:53these these mag, you know, remember
2:15:54those magnetic helmets that they were
2:15:56doing on this thing and and what they
2:15:57would do is they would stimulate the
2:15:58same part of the brain that's that's
2:16:00touched with people who have, you know,
2:16:02grandma seizures. And so a lot of people
2:16:04who have epileptic seizures events that
2:16:08they'll have it'll be a mystical
2:16:10experience. And you know, if you're, for
2:16:11example, a Catholic nun and you have an
2:16:13apparition of the Blessed Virgin Mary,
2:16:15the protocol from the bishop is to check
2:16:17you for epilepsy first because it might
2:16:21just be that you had undiagnosed
2:16:23epilepsy and you had a seizure and it
2:16:25made you have a mystical experience,
2:16:26right? Okay, I get it. You know, and
2:16:28then these are ways to actually say
2:16:29that, you know, Andrew and Arthur are
2:16:30going off the reservation here. They're
2:16:32not being good scientists. There are
2:16:34plenty good philosophical and
2:16:35neuroscientific explanations for the
2:16:37experience of God, per se. For me, that
2:16:40is uncompelling. And part of the reason
2:16:42that that's uncompelling for me is that
2:16:44I've been walking through across the
2:16:46earth for the last 62 years, and I can't
2:16:48get it out of my mind. I'm not worried
2:16:50about not the problem of non-existence.
2:16:52It's not that it's been resolved, but
2:16:53this is not a preoccupation of mine. And
2:16:56and quite frankly there are lots and
2:16:58lots and lots of times that I don't feel
2:17:00a single you know a single molecule of
2:17:04emotional faith on the contrary but I
2:17:07have a strong sense of the existence of
2:17:09the creator song strong sense of the
2:17:11divine do I understand him no I have a
2:17:14very imperfect physics for full
2:17:16disclosure I'm a Catholic and I go to
2:17:18mass every day why do I do that I do
2:17:21that because not because I feel it not
2:17:24even because I leave, but because I'm
2:17:26serving this intuition through practice.
2:17:31And by the way, for everybody who's
2:17:32watching us who's like, I don't know,
2:17:34maybe, but I don't feel it. So what? So
2:17:37what? You know, if I if anybody who's
2:17:40married, they know that if you went
2:17:42according to your feelings, you will not
2:17:44stay married a month. You absolutely
2:17:45won't. You don't even go according to
2:17:47your belief in the in the institution of
2:17:48marriage. You go you stay married
2:17:51because you practice marriage. And the
2:17:53same thing is true with your
2:17:54relationship with anybody, including
2:17:56with God. Start with practice.
2:17:58Occasionally, you'll believe and very
2:18:00occasionally you'll feel it. That's the
2:18:02way the whole relationship actually
2:18:04works. Andrew, that's the protocol.
2:18:07[laughter]
2:18:07>> I was happy to hear that the bishop has
2:18:09protocols.
2:18:10>> They do. But the protocol for individual
2:18:13faith is not feeling, belief, practice.
2:18:16It's practice, belief, feeling. without
2:18:19any attempt to take away from the the
2:18:21depth and and um and impact of what you
2:18:25just described. Uh I sat across at this
2:18:28very table from Pavl Satsulan who's one
2:18:31of like the most revered strength
2:18:32trainers in the world, right? And and he
2:18:34said like
2:18:35>> and he he said my as you occasionally
2:18:38he'd say my name Andrew and he like tell
2:18:40me something and I you know and he and
2:18:41he said
2:18:42>> you don't weightlift, you don't work
2:18:45out. He's like you practice strength
2:18:47training. Yeah.
2:18:48>> And it and I was like, "Oh, I sort of
2:18:51get it. I Okay. Yeah, we can call it one
2:18:52thing or another." He's like, "No, no,
2:18:54you every time you do it, you're
2:18:55practicing to get better at it." And
2:18:57that changes the whole motivational
2:18:59structure is is what he essentially was
2:19:01saying. And that changes your
2:19:02expectation of what you're going to get
2:19:04out of it,
2:19:04>> right?
2:19:05>> It's yes, you expect to get stronger,
2:19:08but it's this this notion that you're
2:19:10always the student of yourself. you're
2:19:12always the student of this process and
2:19:14you never really expect to like conquer
2:19:16it because there's always more weight
2:19:17you could add. Yeah. Now this is a very
2:19:20mechanical physical analogy to what
2:19:22you're describing but there's an
2:19:24important I think um elegance um in what
2:19:27he said and what you said and the
2:19:28similarity there I think is synergistic
2:19:31which is
2:19:32>> when something is a practice we are not
2:19:34focused on the outcome as much as we are
2:19:36the process that's you know fairly
2:19:39straightforward
2:19:40>> but then there's this almost like higher
2:19:42order thing that comes from that because
2:19:44it predicts with near certainty that
2:19:46you'll continue doing it. Whereas if
2:19:49you're trying to obtain the like grab
2:19:50the ring, get the prize, get the ribbon,
2:19:53lift the weight, that has a ceiling to
2:19:55it. And so what you're really talking
2:19:56about in the the real form of the word
2:19:58is ascension. Like through practice
2:20:00there's like ascension like otherwise
2:20:02like there's only there's the top
2:20:04podium,
2:20:05>> right?
2:20:05>> There's in science there's a Nobel
2:20:06Prize, you know, like there are these
2:20:08awards like you know, but the like those
2:20:11are things again that are human like we
2:20:13set those levels. But the laws of
2:20:16physics have an upper limit,
2:20:18>> but what you're talking about doesn't
2:20:19have an upper limit. Like like we can't
2:20:21say this person experienced God more
2:20:24than anybody else. And that's the goal.
2:20:26Yeah.
2:20:26>> Like there's there there is no ceiling
2:20:29to this this relationship.
2:20:30>> The way that the that that in Vadic
2:20:32wisdom, the way that this is understood,
2:20:34they have a very very elegant way of of
2:20:36understanding this. And and by the way,
2:20:37the idea of practice, no joke. You you
2:20:40practice your marriage. You practice in
2:20:43in your job. You practice friendship and
2:20:45you practice your religion for precisely
2:20:47the same reason that you practice
2:20:50lifting weights as opposed to just
2:20:52lifting weights. You practice it because
2:20:54practice you get better. You the
2:20:56progress principle. We've already talked
2:20:58about that. But the way the Indians talk
2:21:00about that over the course of a life is
2:21:01this and it's based on this empirical
2:21:03regularity. This is a weird thing.
2:21:05People tend to get more religious as
2:21:06they get older. And you know, James
2:21:08Fowler, the sociologist, wrote about
2:21:09this. He says, "People, you know, they
2:21:11wander away and they're in their 20s."
2:21:12I'm like, "Yeah, come on, man. I mean, a
2:21:15an all knowing, all loving God." Well,
2:21:17explain kids getting sick and dying. And
2:21:19and so they're like, "No, explain
2:21:21suffering, right? Explain suffering."
2:21:22And you and I have talked about this
2:21:23before. You know, we were at Stanford.
2:21:24We talked about the problem of pain and
2:21:26the problem of suffering. But when
2:21:27they're in their 40s, what what Fowler
2:21:30uh notices is people get more religious
2:21:31for the following reason. When you're in
2:21:33your 40s, that's when you're like,
2:21:35"Yeah, you know what? Nothing makes
2:21:36sense." [laughter] Actually, nothing
2:21:39makes sense.
2:21:39>> You've done enough that you can say
2:21:40that.
2:21:41>> Yeah. You can actually I I'm not going
2:21:42to resolve everything. You you want a
2:21:44closed form solution to life all the way
2:21:47through your 20s and 30s. You think that
2:21:49there's a a kind of a calculus to it
2:21:51>> and you realize that these are these are
2:21:53computational methods to everything that
2:21:55you're doing, which means you no there's
2:21:57no closed form solution. You got to get
2:21:58a simulation going here to to just to
2:22:01use I'm an old operations research
2:22:02analyst. So yeah, there's no closed form
2:22:04solution to anything you really care
2:22:05about which is you know the result of it
2:22:08is everything's messy and and you're
2:22:11much more comfortable with the cognitive
2:22:12dissonance of the problem of pain and
2:22:14the result of it is that you actually
2:22:16look for something that has these
2:22:18transcendent properties notwithstanding
2:22:20the contradictions that you actually see
2:22:21around you. The way that the Indians
2:22:23talk about that interest is as follows.
2:22:26Life is in four quarters. This is called
2:22:28the theory of the ashramas which is a
2:22:30Sanskrit word you know for for quarters
2:22:32of life and the ideal life is 100 years
2:22:34long and each one of these is 25 years
2:22:35but your results may vary right the
2:22:38first quarter is brahmacharia which
2:22:40means the student phase learn learn the
2:22:42second is grihasta which is the
2:22:43householder phase earn build earn build
2:22:47family business
2:22:48>> that's up to 50
2:22:49>> that's up to 50 but at 50 you have a
2:22:51second adolescence that leads you into
2:22:53vana prrasta which is a a a word in
2:22:56Sanskrit that means It's from two words
2:22:58vana and prosta meaning retiring into
2:23:01the forest retirement and forest and
2:23:03it's a metaphor you back into the forest
2:23:06right and and what you're doing is
2:23:07you're actually gradually moving away
2:23:09from not from doing your job you know
2:23:12not from your relationships but from the
2:23:15scoreboard from the honors of the world
2:23:18and what are you doing you're getting
2:23:19into an elite training for the last
2:23:21quarter which is sasa which that is the
2:23:25to sit in the luminescence of the
2:23:27divine, of the godhead, of Brahman in
2:23:29Hinduism is the whole idea. But that
2:23:31requires super elite training. You're
2:23:33not going to get to 75 and and and
2:23:36experience time because time for people
2:23:38who are very religious or very
2:23:39spiritual. Time is completely different
2:23:42than the success addict who's like
2:23:43time's running out. [groaning]
2:23:45Got to do more more more like hideonic
2:23:48treadmill. For people who are very very
2:23:50spiritual, time becomes less forward
2:23:53moving and and more sort of lateral. It
2:23:55kind of spreads out like the delta of a
2:23:57river where it slows down and you can't
2:23:59tell where the ocean begins and the
2:24:01river finishes. That's your life. That
2:24:04that's what it means to sit in the
2:24:05luminescence of God. And when death
2:24:07comes, it's simply it's a it's a
2:24:09process. It's gradual. It's not binary
2:24:12at all. Notwithstanding the fact that we
2:24:14can actually say where the electricity
2:24:15of the brain stops. It it is a deeply
2:24:17deeply spiritual and comfortable thing.
2:24:20But that requires the elite training of
2:24:22anoprasta. not after 50 necessarily
2:24:25because most people listening to us if
2:24:27they're enlightened it might be they're
2:24:2929 or they're 36 but the the elite
2:24:33training of and the elite training is
2:24:35actually not you know memorizing the
2:24:36whole Bible it's asking the deep
2:24:38questions who am I who is God who
2:24:41created this what is love am I loved can
2:24:45I love these are the deep metaphysical
2:24:47questions that actually lead us to the
2:24:49ultimate source of that love and the
2:24:52imperfect physics that is organized
2:24:54religion.
2:24:55>> How are you as a 62year-old
2:24:58um exploring this third phase? You
2:25:01described your you go to mass every day.
2:25:03Is that sometimes online or always in
2:25:04person?
2:25:05>> Always in person. So, and the great
2:25:06thing is, you know, the Catholic church
2:25:07is like Starbucks.
2:25:09>> It's like it's it's a very uniform
2:25:11available product with high quality.
2:25:14>> Mhm. [laughter]
2:25:15And uh and so you know I go with my wife
2:25:17at 6:30 in the morning every when I'm
2:25:19home and I'm home usually four days a
2:25:22week. I'm on the road 48 weeks a year
2:25:24but usually about 3 days a week that I'm
2:25:26out sometimes four days a week and you
2:25:28know I've got an app click next mass.
2:25:30It's great because it's literally the
2:25:32same product every place in the world
2:25:34450,000 times a day. It's I'm very lucky
2:25:37in this way.
2:25:38>> So you're like playing a gym.
2:25:39>> So you're up at 4:30 in the morning.
2:25:41>> Yeah. And you're in the gym working out
2:25:43>> for an hour
2:25:44>> six, seven days a week.
2:25:45>> Seven days a week.
2:25:46>> Seven days a week.
2:25:47>> Seven days a week. But it's a 4 day
2:25:48cycle. I'm not I'm obviously not doing
2:25:49the same thing, right? Have unbelievable
2:25:51stress injuries.
2:25:52>> Push pull legs yoga. Push pull legs.
2:25:55Zone two and yoga.
2:25:57>> Super impressive diligence. Um and then
2:25:59you're in mass.
2:26:00>> Mhm.
2:26:01>> And then you move about your day.
2:26:02>> Yeah.
2:26:02>> Do you have a prayer practice at the end
2:26:04of your day?
2:26:04>> I do. I I pray the rosary over the
2:26:06course of the day. Generally speaking, I
2:26:07pray the divine office with my wife,
2:26:09which is an ancient monastic set of
2:26:11prayers that that monks have been saying
2:26:13since St. Benedict in the sixth century.
2:26:15>> And that's a that's that that that
2:26:17punctuates the day. My wife and I, we do
2:26:18it on FaceTime or on the phone. Um, no
2:26:21matter where I am, almost any place in
2:26:22the world, as a matter of fact, before
2:26:24the end of the day. Sometimes if I'm in
2:26:26India, which I try to go every year, um,
2:26:29while I'm going to sleep, she's saying
2:26:30the divine office for for nighttime
2:26:32prayers at lunchtime.
2:26:35But we do that and we do that together
2:26:36because that's a deep deep right brain
2:26:38melding. One flesh for a married couple
2:26:42should be the union of the right
2:26:43hemispheres where you have a deep
2:26:46intuitive understanding of life itself
2:26:48that you can't quite explain but you
2:26:50both understand. That's the satisfaction
2:26:52of a marriage.
2:26:53>> So this right brain connection you know
2:26:56Dr. Alan Shore, right, who's been a
2:26:57guest on this podcast and and it I loved
2:27:00his book
2:27:01>> and um I mean he really emphasized the
2:27:04importance of this
2:27:05>> right brain connection between
2:27:07especially mother and child but also
2:27:09father and child uh
2:27:11>> husband and wife close friends.
2:27:13>> Yeah. that you know that the
2:27:15joining you know synchronizing the the
2:27:18rise in likeulation and then and then
2:27:20and also the troughs right and and and
2:27:22then the calm uh piece of no need for
2:27:26excitement like that as really the the
2:27:29core he was mostly talking about the
2:27:31psychology and neurobiology of of what
2:27:33real connection is about and so
2:27:35beautiful to hear you talk about that
2:27:37[snorts] in the context of of a romantic
2:27:39relationship
2:27:40>> and that's you know the nice thing about
2:27:41that we talk about faith family friends
2:27:43at work, for example, the apex of family
2:27:46and friendship is the spousal
2:27:48relationship. That's the apex because
2:27:50that's somebody that you've adopted as
2:27:51your kin. And it's the neurobiology of
2:27:53falling in love is so interesting,
2:27:55right? starting with attraction and sex
2:27:57hormones, but then but when the
2:27:59catakolamines get involved for for you
2:28:01know intense desire and and and
2:28:04anticipation of reward and the
2:28:07abullience that comes from the you know
2:28:09the norepinephrine release that actually
2:28:10comes and wondering does that text from
2:28:13her? It's one word, who cares, right?
2:28:15And then the serotonin drop, the deep
2:28:17serotonin drop that actually happens
2:28:19when you start to ruminate on the other
2:28:21person. The sweet misery that comes from
2:28:23the rumination on the other person,
2:28:24which is, you know, pretty much
2:28:26indistinguishable neurobiologically from
2:28:28clinical depression, right? It's like
2:28:31there's no serotonin in the syninnapse.
2:28:34And then last but not least is the is
2:28:35the these neuropeptides like oxytocin,
2:28:38vasopressin, but especially, you know,
2:28:39that that that bond you together and
2:28:41companion at love. Mhm.
2:28:43>> which is what you actually want. You've
2:28:44adopted that person. That's your person.
2:28:47That's your kin. That's your best
2:28:48friend. That's your lover. That's the
2:28:50person who actually shares the right
2:28:52hemisphere of the deep meaning of your
2:28:54life. And you know, one of the beautiful
2:28:55things about romantic love is it helps
2:28:57me understand how the philosophy and the
2:29:00theology and the neuroscience and the
2:29:02psychology. It's all one thing, man.
2:29:04It's all one thing. It all comes
2:29:06together in this beautiful way. That's
2:29:07why it's such a a powerful thing that
2:29:10that you and I want in our lives. as you
2:29:12and I need in our lives.
2:29:14>> Anyone can really start to clearly
2:29:16understand how while there are wonderful
2:29:19technologies and things available in the
2:29:20world that um so much of what we're
2:29:23offered and fed and paying for with our
2:29:26time, especially our time are ways to um
2:29:30shortcircuit the building of these
2:29:32things. Whether it's with a romantic
2:29:34partner or a vocation or with our
2:29:36friends or
2:29:37>> workism, alcoholism, pornography, all
2:29:40these things.
2:29:41>> Pornography is sort of like it like it
2:29:43it literally shortcircuits the circuit
2:29:45that is supposed to be this magnificent
2:29:49immensely complicated like cocktail of
2:29:52things that you would call like a really
2:29:53truly amazing relationship. And it's
2:29:56just it's tapping into one thing. I I'm
2:29:58sort of living in the land of analogies
2:30:00today, but not unlike when I had a guy
2:30:02on my on this podcast uh Chris McCertie
2:30:05who studies plant-based uh medicines but
2:30:08not psychedelics and he was talking
2:30:09about how you know the problem in this
2:30:11country is that we learn to isolate and
2:30:13synthesize the most potent of the plant
2:30:15molecules and they become very
2:30:17addictive. So whether they're painillers
2:30:18or they're cocaine or they're
2:30:21>> but that in the whole plant form these
2:30:23things actually had balance.
2:30:25>> And so there's a really I think an
2:30:27appropriate perhaps um uh analogy there
2:30:30that like when we try and get one slice
2:30:33of this in high potency and not have to
2:30:36risk anything to get it, you lose the
2:30:38whole thing.
2:30:39>> When you shear something off from the
2:30:40whole experience, that's when it
2:30:42actually becomes addictive. That's when
2:30:43it becomes pathological. Naturally
2:30:46speaking, a lot of these processes, a
2:30:47lot of the things that we actually
2:30:48experience are supposed to be there.
2:30:49Look, I mean, we're so good at at at
2:30:53taking at at solving a little problem
2:30:55and creating a major crisis, you know,
2:30:57[laughter] like, man, that's like I got
2:30:59a headache. I need something stronger. I
2:31:01need something stronger. I need
2:31:02something stronger. 100,000 people died
2:31:04of, you know, opiate overdoses or
2:31:06something last year. This is what
2:31:08actually happens. And then there are
2:31:09other things that we do as well. And by
2:31:11the way, you know, lest we look like
2:31:13we're, you know, holier than thou,
2:31:15workcoholism is a classic case of this
2:31:17as well. It's just that that particular
2:31:19addiction sheared off from the natural,
2:31:22you know, humane and and even divine
2:31:24process of creating value on this earth
2:31:27when we become workaholics. The result
2:31:29is that people congratulate us for it.
2:31:32You know, can you imagine somebody who
2:31:33said, "Andrew, you are unbelievably good
2:31:35at drinking vodka. You put away two
2:31:40750ml bottles of that last night and and
2:31:42and you were completely blacked out, but
2:31:45I was amazed at how a great you are.
2:31:47You're talented. You're great drink.
2:31:48>> This was the college I went to.
2:31:50>> Uh you know, and I'm I wasn't a big
2:31:52drinker there, but people would try and
2:31:53impress each other with how much they
2:31:54could drink.
2:31:55>> By the time you're our age, however, if
2:31:57you're doing that, people are you think
2:31:58that you're you're a pathetic drunk. But
2:32:00if you're our age, my age, and if I'm 62
2:32:04years old, completely neglecting my
2:32:06family,
2:32:07>> and doing only stuff to run up the
2:32:08scoreboard on money and power and fame
2:32:11or whatever, people are going to be
2:32:12like, "Dude, you're good at your job.
2:32:14>> You're awesome." You know, it's like I
2:32:16Yeah, you know how many speeches I gave
2:32:18last year? You know how many frequent
2:32:20flyer miles? People are going to be
2:32:21like, "That's really, really
2:32:22impressive." But the whole point is
2:32:23that's sheared off from the natural
2:32:25human experience. It's an addictive
2:32:27behavior. It's dangerous. It's
2:32:28pathological. It's bad for us and it
2:32:30leads to misery.
2:32:31>> Yeah. I think what saved me was hearing
2:32:34the phrase, I don't know where I heard
2:32:35it was, "Everyone loves a young drunk."
2:32:37>> Yeah.
2:32:38>> And I was like, "Oh, yeah." Like this
2:32:39this rolled forward does not look good.
2:32:41>> How old were you when you started
2:32:43>> in college? I mean, and
2:32:44>> you stopped really early.
2:32:45>> No, I drank, but I I noticed early on
2:32:47mostly because I was doing a lot of
2:32:48catchup with my academics and then got
2:32:50into physical fitness and I drank
2:32:53basically until my early 40s, but less
2:32:55and less and less and less and less. Oh,
2:32:56you did?
2:32:57>> Yeah. And then finally was just like no
2:32:58more. I'm done. I'm done.
2:33:00>> And um
2:33:01>> I drank more and more and more and more
2:33:02of this stuff.
2:33:03>> But I probably it was very socially um
2:33:06unacceptable and isolating to not drink.
2:33:08People like academics would be like
2:33:10you're boring. But I'd kick their butt
2:33:12the next day at the meeting when they're
2:33:13all kind of like worked. And then I'd
2:33:15see them and I I'm not one of these
2:33:16people like things like oh aesthetics
2:33:18and muscle and leanness are are all it.
2:33:20But I'd see people get tenure and I was
2:33:22like you look like you look like
2:33:24you aged 25 years and your kids are
2:33:26miserable and all I hear are complaints
2:33:28about this and I'm like you're not
2:33:30taking care of yourself so I don't want
2:33:31to be like that.
2:33:32>> So I figured
2:33:33>> I'm not the smartest but I can work hard
2:33:36>> right
2:33:37>> u and if I get more years then
2:33:39eventually I can catch up or get ahead
2:33:41but it wasn't really competitive for me.
2:33:42I also just didn't like how it felt. I
2:33:44lucked out but in any case with the
2:33:46workcoholism as you're describing it
2:33:49that is a very dangerous one. Yeah,
2:33:50that's usually a secondary affliction
2:33:52based on success addiction, the
2:33:54addiction to success which comes down to
2:33:56that reward, that reinforcement that re
2:33:59you get that little reward, the the
2:34:00reinforcement of your goodness, the
2:34:02understanding of yourself. And so
2:34:03success addiction leads to workcoholism.
2:34:06Success addiction once again is down is
2:34:08really downstream from you know earning
2:34:10love from the belief that I can I can be
2:34:12enough if I do enough.
2:34:13>> The human doing phenomenon is that
2:34:16actually what we see. The beautiful
2:34:17thing about this is that, you know, I I
2:34:20you know, I talk about the behavioral
2:34:21science principles. We've touched on the
2:34:23philosophy. We've talked about the
2:34:24theology. You've talked so much about
2:34:26the mechanisms on this show and in your
2:34:28writing and in your scholarship about
2:34:30the neurobiology behind it. And it we're
2:34:31all wonderfully made. This all ties up
2:34:34in the same area. There's no it's not
2:34:36like one thing leads in one direction
2:34:38every and something else leads in
2:34:39another. On the contrary, you can get
2:34:41there many paths to these truths. The
2:34:44real pity is when we're not looking for
2:34:45the truth. The real pity is when we're
2:34:47distracting ourselves from what it
2:34:49actually means to be the people that we
2:34:50want to be. Which leads us, you know, to
2:34:52the very beginning of this conversation.
2:34:54What if you were the person that you
2:34:56wanted to be? You know, that's and the
2:34:59fact that we can actually do so by
2:35:00looking at the space of moral
2:35:01aspiration. I think that's a miracle. I
2:35:04think that's an incredible miracle.
2:35:06>> Before we wrap, I have two things. Um,
2:35:09first a question
2:35:11>> and then and then a a consideration. So
2:35:14I suppose both are questions because the
2:35:16consideration is for you. The first
2:35:18question is for somebody listening to
2:35:20this conversation today. I mean earlier
2:35:22we were talking about um exploring one's
2:35:25uh choices about and um relationship to
2:35:28leisure and you you touched on a number
2:35:30of other important points that um you
2:35:33know people can return to because we've
2:35:35we time stamp these of course. But if
2:35:37there's a question or a small set of
2:35:39questions that anyone at any age can ask
2:35:41themselves that can help them redirect
2:35:44or or just better orient in space and
2:35:46time and choice making what are those I
2:35:49mean or do those do those sorts of
2:35:52questions self assessment actually does
2:35:54>> no well just you know like if we were
2:35:56going to if we would you know share this
2:35:58time on an airplane I'm like hey thanks
2:35:59and we didn't have cell phones I' be
2:36:00like anything else I should think about
2:36:02before we part ways like you got any
2:36:04suggestions
2:36:05>> you know or or a book, recommend,
2:36:07whatever. So much of what you've said
2:36:08today is fodder for more questions.
2:36:10>> Yeah. Um, which is which is means you've
2:36:12done which is
2:36:13>> our work is so awesome. Yeah.
2:36:15>> Like our work is like a self-licking ice
2:36:17cream cone.
2:36:17>> Yeah. Well, oh man, I haven't heard that
2:36:19analogy in a long time. That's how we
2:36:21used to describe some grants that we
2:36:23were about to deny. [laughter] So, let's
2:36:25not do that. So asking about how one
2:36:27spends leisure, understanding this
2:36:28relationship between um pleasure and
2:36:31moral aspiration and and and seeking to
2:36:33to fuse those because that clearly is a
2:36:36powerfully
2:36:37>> great thing to do. Who wouldn't want to
2:36:39do more of that? Are there any other
2:36:41sort of probe questions that we might
2:36:42ask ourselves like once a day or once a
2:36:44week? Um
2:36:46>> you know while we're leaving the gym or
2:36:47mass or whatever.
2:36:48>> Yeah. Yeah. What is the Yeah. you know
2:36:49and and there are certain things that
2:36:51you know inventories that I actually try
2:36:52to take you know to make sure that my my
2:36:54my my hygiene is appropriate
2:36:57>> right
2:36:58>> holding yourself to high account is
2:37:00unbelievably important holding yourself
2:37:02to much higher account than anybody else
2:37:04would hold you that's one of the reasons
2:37:05that pe the happiest people are the
2:37:07people who have a a strong sense of
2:37:09propriety that they practice when no one
2:37:11sees them
2:37:12>> you know that's the essence of being
2:37:14honest with yourself you know it's one
2:37:16thing to you and I know so many famous
2:37:18people and and and and typically they
2:37:19have a public persona and a private
2:37:21persona just because you have to
2:37:22separate those particular things but the
2:37:23happiest of famous people which is hard
2:37:26because fame is the only one of the
2:37:28worldly rewards you can only ever be
2:37:29happy in spite of never because of right
2:37:33and
2:37:34>> that's a better answer to what I I was
2:37:36asked earlier but like yes opens
2:37:38opportunities limits freedoms but you
2:37:40nailed it
2:37:42>> those people the people who are happy in
2:37:44spite of being famous are the same
2:37:46people when you're alone at dinner with
2:37:47them as they are in front of 10,000
2:37:49people in an arena. They are. And I know
2:37:51people like that. I know people like
2:37:52Oprah Winfrey is like that.
2:37:53>> Oprah Winfrey is the same person at the
2:37:55dinner table as she is in a screaming
2:37:57arena full of people. And she's a
2:37:59well-integrated person. And she's happy
2:38:01in spite of the fact that she's one of
2:38:02the probably five most famous people in
2:38:04the world. You know, it's extraordinary.
2:38:05I mean, I just co-authored a book with
2:38:07her which was incredible learning
2:38:09experience about my own field by
2:38:11observing her life, right? But there
2:38:13aren't very many people like that. So
2:38:14the way to do that is to subject
2:38:16yourself to you know the the the queries
2:38:19that you would use on somebody else. you
2:38:22know what are the what are the probing
2:38:23questions and you know and protocols
2:38:25that we have it's usually based on you
2:38:27know asking people a set of questions
2:38:30you know I could walk through what's my
2:38:32idol am I serving my idols or a bunch of
2:38:34things like that but [snorts]
2:38:36fundamentally for example we all can
2:38:39fall into suffering about you know sort
2:38:41of the sense of emptiness the onwei that
2:38:44comes from you know the modern world we
2:38:45all feel depressed from time to time
2:38:48there is a a set of questions why
2:38:50questions
2:38:51that interrogates whether or not we
2:38:54actually are in touch with the most
2:38:55important macronutrient of our own
2:38:57happiness, which is the meaning of our
2:38:58lives. Here are the three questions, the
2:39:00three big wise that I ask myself
2:39:02continuously that I I I I probe and I
2:39:06have to answer honestly because being
2:39:09honest with myself is the essence of
2:39:11getting into the moral space. Number
2:39:13one, why do I think things actually
2:39:15happen the way that they do and am I
2:39:17acting accord accordance with that?
2:39:20And and for for for a religious person
2:39:22like me, if I say, "I think things
2:39:24happen the way they do because of the
2:39:25will of God, but I'm not acting that
2:39:27way," that's going to be a source of
2:39:29misery. Am I acting like I believe that
2:39:32the will of God exists and is true? Or
2:39:35am I acting like everything has to do
2:39:37with me, which means I'm freaking out
2:39:39about everything. I'm I'm I'm super
2:39:41stressed out about, you know, what's
2:39:43going to happen tomorrow that's
2:39:44completely out of my control. I'm
2:39:46anxious all the time. I'm worrying
2:39:48continuously. Worry is evidence of a
2:39:51lack of faith. And so therefore, if I
2:39:54say I'm committing to my faith, it
2:39:56immediately extinguishes worry. Right?
2:39:59You don't shouldn't feel guilty about
2:40:00it. You should act according to the
2:40:01person that you are. Number one, that's
2:40:02the coherence question for philosophers.
2:40:05Why do things happen the way they do? Am
2:40:07I acting that way? Second, why am I
2:40:09doing what I'm doing? That's the purpose
2:40:11question. You know, that's the purpose
2:40:13in life. That's purpose and meaning are
2:40:15not the same thing. Purpose is a
2:40:16subcategory of meaning. Why am I doing
2:40:19the things that I am actually doing? And
2:40:22then the next question beyond that is
2:40:25is that in accord with my beliefs? Am I
2:40:28doing the things that I'm doing in
2:40:29accord with my beliefs? But why am I
2:40:31doing them? And and and by the way, for
2:40:32you and me, it might be because I'm
2:40:34chasing my idol, because I want more
2:40:36control, because I want more adoration
2:40:37of strangers, because I want more money.
2:40:39Because I want to feel good. Is that in
2:40:41accord with my beliefs? And then the
2:40:44last part is
2:40:46why does my life matter? And that's
2:40:48really to whom am I acting according to
2:40:51the people to whom my life actually
2:40:53matters? Am I acting that way? Am I am I
2:40:56marginalizing? And by the way, Andrew,
2:40:58I've screwed this up so many times. When
2:41:00I was a CEO running this big nonprofit
2:41:01organization, which was so important,
2:41:04right? I was at one point at the very
2:41:07end of it, I was interviewing um a bunch
2:41:10of very famous and rich financial
2:41:12professionals for a book that I was
2:41:14starting to write that came out after I
2:41:15left and and when I was already back in
2:41:17academia called From Strength to
2:41:19Strength. It was a book about getting
2:41:21happier as you get older. And this woman
2:41:23is like a billionaire. I mean,
2:41:25unbelievable. Named firm, famous. And
2:41:28she's telling me about her achievements.
2:41:29I'm like, "Congratulations. That's
2:41:30great." She says, "I'm so unhappy." I
2:41:33said, 'Well, talk to me, sister.
2:41:35[laughter] What gives? She said, "My
2:41:37husband and I were married, but we're
2:41:39roommates. You know, I have adult kids
2:41:42with a cordial relationship. I think my
2:41:45employees are they do what I say, but I
2:41:47think they're afraid of me. I don't
2:41:49think my decision-m is crisp anymore. I
2:41:51don't love it, but I don't know what
2:41:51else to do." She said, "I go to the
2:41:54doctor, and the doctor says, "You need
2:41:55to stop drinking and get into the gym,
2:41:56but I keep drinking. I don't go to the
2:41:58gym." She said, "I when I grew up, I I
2:41:59went to church when I was a little girl,
2:42:01and I loved that. I always wanted that
2:42:02and I I don't go to church and I don't
2:42:05know why. And she says, "Professor, what
2:42:07am I supposed to do?" And I said, "You
2:42:09don't need a Harvard professor. You just
2:42:12wrote your own prescription.
2:42:14Take a souvenir in your company and step
2:42:16back. Go away with your husband and get
2:42:18to know him. Go move closer to your
2:42:20kids. Get into AA. Go to the gym. Go
2:42:22back to church. Look, it's right there."
2:42:24She says, "I know. I know. I know." I
2:42:27said, "So why not? Why didn't you do
2:42:29that? Why don't you?" She and she was
2:42:30silent for a long time and finally she
2:42:33said because I've always chosen to be
2:42:36special rather than happy. And that was
2:42:38like a knife to my heart because at that
2:42:41point in my life, me too. You know how
2:42:43many little league games I didn't go to?
2:42:45Look, little league games are boring.
2:42:48Let's be honest. But it's my kids. You
2:42:51know how many birthdays that I missed
2:42:53because I was trying to be special and
2:42:54successful and adored by people who
2:42:57don't care about me and and and and it
2:43:00and that specialness is that's that's an
2:43:02animal impulse that is hardwired into
2:43:06us. The moral aspiration is to choose
2:43:08happiness over that particular
2:43:10specialness. And that's the that's the
2:43:12significance question. Why does my life
2:43:15matter and to whom? and am I acting in
2:43:18accord and responsibly with my answer to
2:43:21that question? That's the interrogation.
2:43:25You do not disappoint,
2:43:27Professor Arthur Brooks.
2:43:30>> Awesome. [snorts] Those are great, great
2:43:31questions that I will be asking over and
2:43:33over and um that uh everyone should
2:43:37consider asking and uh trying to answer
2:43:40over and over for themselves. So, um I'm
2:43:43really moved. I uh me too. You know,
2:43:45I've been doing this podcasting thing a
2:43:47while now, and every once in a while,
2:43:48someone someone sits down here and and
2:43:50takes us someplace else. I I I knew you
2:43:52were that guy because we had shared the
2:43:54conversation before, but you you've
2:43:56given me so much to think about. I'm
2:43:58going to be listening to this and taking
2:43:59notes for for my own reasons.
2:44:02>> No, thank you. Thank you. What what an
2:44:03honor it is. Um you've blessed me again
2:44:05and again and again and again with the
2:44:06scientific knowledge you bring to it.
2:44:08But the soul you actually bring to the
2:44:09science, that's the magic formula
2:44:12>> that you actually bring to all your
2:44:13work.
2:44:14Well, thank you. Um, I have a couple of
2:44:16people in my life who are about I've
2:44:18always had a couple people in my life
2:44:20who are about 10 years older I really
2:44:22look up to. I look up to you. I really
2:44:23do. I I admire you and um it's a short
2:44:26list. Um,
2:44:27>> but it's a potent one. And I
2:44:29[clears throat] won't tell you who else
2:44:29is on camera who else is on there, but
2:44:32like it's an it's it's an all-star team.
2:44:34I aspire to to to be um more like you.
2:44:38And I say that with with like with all
2:44:40the respect that you're a human and you
2:44:41have your struggles, but I think it's
2:44:43important for
2:44:44>> uh anyone at a given developmental stage
2:44:48to look at people who've you know
2:44:50migrated the path more or less that
2:44:52they're on and but are ahead of them and
2:44:54get some some useful information. So I
2:44:56appreciate that. So whether you like it
2:44:58or not, you're a mentor to me.
2:45:00>> Thank you. Thank you. That means that
2:45:01means a world and and we're we're all on
2:45:03the path. We're all on the path. We're
2:45:04all we all have our life is you know
2:45:07that every religious tradition has
2:45:08pilgrimages almost every religious
2:45:10tradition. Um if you go across India you
2:45:12see mendicants that are actually walking
2:45:14toward a holy city. In the Christian
2:45:16faith we have we have three big
2:45:18pilgrimages to Jerusalem to Rome and to
2:45:20Santiago the compostella which is the
2:45:22Camino de Santiago.
2:45:24>> And and these pilgrimages are are
2:45:26metaphorical for what we're actually
2:45:28trying to do with our lives which is why
2:45:29they're they're such deeply mystical and
2:45:31spiritual experiences. I recommend that
2:45:32everybody go on a 500 mile walk across
2:45:34northern Spain from the from the French
2:45:36border to Santiago the complet do it on
2:45:38your knees did you
2:45:39>> I did not do it on my knees but I've
2:45:40done it just the last eight days two
2:45:42times because my wife won't do more than
2:45:43eight days and I love my wife but but
2:45:45the point is you have that what you
2:45:46realize is that that's a metaphor for
2:45:48your life
2:45:49>> we're walking through this life we're
2:45:51all learning on a pilgrimage Arthur is
2:45:53on a pilgrimage every single person
2:45:55watching us is on a pilgrimage and that
2:45:57means progress but that actually means
2:45:59the excellence that actually comes from
2:46:01making prog progress in little ways
2:46:03every single day and being open to to to
2:46:05metaphysical truths.
2:46:07>> So, it moves me a lot that that I could
2:46:09be, you know, some little stone church
2:46:12on the on the side of the road on your
2:46:14pilgrimage. Well,
2:46:15>> you absolutely are. And in sharing this
2:46:17with other people, you are to them, too.
2:46:19So, I did say I had one more question
2:46:22slashconsideration. So, I'm so inspired
2:46:25and and struck by what what you shared
2:46:27that I I think it would be um worth
2:46:31considering perhaps and don't feel
2:46:33obligated to answer here. Maybe we just
2:46:35leave it a cliffhanger and then and not
2:46:37answer on here or if you want you can.
2:46:39People would really benefit from hearing
2:46:42from you more in the context of
2:46:44structured sets of questions. I know you
2:46:46do this on your podcast and we've
2:46:47touched on some of that today. of uh
2:46:48your books and so forth, but it'd be fun
2:46:51to explore the possibility of doing a
2:46:53like a self exploration series or uh
2:46:56with you at some point and and we could
2:46:58figure out the venue if it's on here or
2:47:00it's elsewhere. But I if you'd be
2:47:02willing to consider like ways we could
2:47:04explore things um more fully, also
2:47:07selfishly so I can learn more from
2:47:09[clears throat] you.
2:47:10>> Likewise, my answer is yes.
2:47:11>> Awesome.
2:47:12>> Let's do it, man. Let's do it. Let's
2:47:13like let's get a band together.
2:47:14>> Fantastic. I love it. God bless you. God
2:47:17bless you too, Andrew. Thank you for all
2:47:19the things that you're bringing to me
2:47:20and for all the people who are watching.
2:47:21I'm honored to be part of this.
2:47:23>> Thank you for joining me for today's
2:47:24discussion with Dr. Arthur Brooks. To
2:47:26learn more about his work and to find
2:47:28links to his many excellent books,
2:47:30please see the show note caption. If
2:47:32you're learning from and or enjoying
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2:47:50Please also check out the sponsors
2:47:51mentioned at the beginning and
2:47:52throughout today's episode. That's the
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2:47:57have questions for me or comments about
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2:48:00you'd like me to consider for the
2:48:01Huberman Lab podcast, please put those
2:48:03in the comment section on YouTube. I do
2:48:05read all the comments. For those of you
2:48:07that haven't heard, I have a new book
2:48:08coming out. It's my very first book.
2:48:10It's entitled Protocols: An Operating
2:48:13Manual for the Human Body. This is a
2:48:14book that I've been working on for more
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2:48:38There you can find links to various
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2:49:42Thank you once again for joining me for
2:49:44today's discussion with Dr. Arthur
2:49:45Brooks. And last, but certainly not
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2:49:50science.
2:49:53[music]

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