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The #1 Exercise to Stay Physically Independent as You Age | World's Top Strength Training Researcher — Transcript

by The LIVING Room Podcast | Inside The WNDR Lab · 14,645 words · 2,173 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00If you do not do resistance training,
0:02you will begin to lose fundamental
0:04muscle mass [music] at the rate of about
0:061 half% per year, sometime in your 30s.
0:09The average person, 20% of people in the
0:11United States are regularly doing what
0:14would be considered the recommended
0:16amount of muscle strengthening exercise
0:18every week. 50% of all older adults who
0:22experience a hip fracture never regain
0:24their physical independence. One of the
0:26coolest studies was in 90 year olds in
0:28nursing homes and they had them do just
0:30leg extensions three days a week. They
0:33experienced strength gains of 150% in
0:36their knee extensors. 50% improvement in
0:39functional capacity. Three out of the 10
0:42subjects were able to walk without
0:43assistance of their canes after an 8week
0:46training program. Resistance training
0:48the muscle itself secretes various
0:51substances called myioines. Several of
0:53them affect the brain and [music] it's
0:55been shown over and over that depression
0:57is ameliated with resistance training
0:59and aerobic training as well just
1:01exercise in general.
1:02>> One thing that's become incredibly
1:04popular now is this hot cold therapy
1:06[music]
1:07contrast. Also some controversy about
1:10doing cold plunge.
1:11>> If you do cold plunge or cold water
1:13application within 20 minutes or so
1:16after the end of a resistance training
1:17workout, you compromise muscle growth.
1:19What would you say is the most overrated
1:21trend in longevity right now?
1:23>> My humble opinion, it's that.
1:38We all know that exercise is incredibly
1:41important and beneficial, certainly as
1:43we age. But what if some of what we're
1:45doing in the gym right now is working
1:47against us or isn't getting us the
1:49result we both want and need? My guest
1:51today is widely regarded as the world's
1:54leading strength training researcher.
1:56Brad Showfield has spent decades
1:58separating what the science really shows
2:00from what the fitness industry often
2:02tells. And so we're going to talk today
2:04about the minimum effective dose of
2:06training, exercise selection, what GLP-1
2:09drugs can do to your muscle mass, which
2:11supplements we should actually take, and
2:13most importantly, what are the things
2:15that you should be doing today to
2:17protect against the signatures of aging.
2:19Please enjoy my conversation with
2:20Professor Brad Shenfeld. Brad,
2:24>> welcome.
2:24>> It's a pleasure, Chris.
2:26>> It's such a pleasure to have you here.
2:27And I want to tell you firstly why this
2:29is a real full circle moment for me.
2:32because 22 years ago I was studying your
2:35textbook at university to graduate as an
2:37exercise physiologist. So two decades
2:41later here we are having the privilege
2:43of interviewing you in person.
2:45>> It's awesome. It's my pleasure Chris.
2:46>> Yeah. So hey, a good place to start I
2:48think would be um to give the listeners
2:51a bit of context as to why you are
2:54widely regarded as the sort of godfather
2:55of of the exercise physiology world.
2:58>> Yeah. So I started out as a personal
3:01trainer. Um my career path was very
3:03windy and I was a bodybuilder as well
3:06and I trained a lot of physique athletes
3:09and um basically the research at that
3:12point you're going back now to the late
3:1490s early 2000s.
3:16>> Um was mostly for strength and
3:19conditioning for sports
3:21>> and there was very little research on
3:23hypertrophy and whatever research there
3:25was was kind of an adjunct. It wasn't
3:26even was really mo much more focused of
3:29course on power and strength which are
3:31the uh under underpinnings of sports.
3:34And all my clients were coming in. They
3:36didn't care about jumping a a inch
3:38higher or you know running a second
3:40faster. They cared about getting more
3:42jacked and losing body fat. And I was
3:44like why don't we have more research on
3:46this? Anyway, long story short, I
3:48transitioned to becoming an educator.
3:51And I'm a kid in a candy store at this
3:53point because I'm I'm now studying. I'm
3:54saying, "Well, now I want to study this.
3:56This has never been studied." And I
3:58think that's what made my research so
4:00popular is that certainly amongst
4:02personal trainers, this this is stuff
4:04that everyone really wanted to know and
4:07we just didn't have a lot of evidence.
4:09And since then, certainly I'm only one
4:11researcher. There's been a lot of
4:13terrific research facilities that have
4:15carried out. I think it's been a
4:17snowball effect and I'm very proud to
4:20have been to contribute to that.
4:22>> When did you start? When did you take
4:24that leap from being coach, trainer to
4:28academic?
4:28>> Yeah, it's kind of an interesting uh
4:31I'll keep it brief, but um I got a I was
4:34offered a position teaching a a uh
4:38teaching a vocational course to personal
4:41trainers or for personal trainers for
4:43people who had no degree. So basically,
4:45it was a six-month program to get people
4:47who are bartenders and actresses. It was
4:50actually in the meatacking district here
4:51on 14th Street. Yep. Huh.
4:54>> And um anyway, long story short there is
4:57once I started teaching I just it was
4:59like a bug that bit me and it's like
5:01this is what you know I'd been training
5:03doing personal training for a long time
5:05but as a personal trainer it's like how
5:07you showing someone how to do a lat pull
5:09down and trying to and don't get me
5:11wrong it was very gratifying for a long
5:12period of time but I just got more joy
5:14out of teaching the science. They didn't
5:16personal training clients generally
5:18don't care about the science. They don't
5:19Yeah. this is actually doing aduction of
5:22the shoulder. That's they don't care
5:24about that. They just just get me get me
5:26jacked.
5:26>> Yeah.
5:27>> And uh I said this is my calling and I
5:30went back I got my PhD and long story
5:32short um where I am now.
5:34>> Here we are. How how has that changed
5:37over those I mean what year was that
5:38that you
5:40>> 2007? So over the past 20 years you know
5:45how has that evolved because you know we
5:48say we started with this very high level
5:49athletic performance today we exercise
5:52has very much become synonymous with
5:55longevity you know living a longer and
5:57healthier life.
5:58>> How have you seen that evolve over those
6:0020 plus years when it comes to what
6:02you've researched? Yeah, I I think the
6:05uh one of the things that's really
6:07heartened me is that resistance training
6:09has become much more accepted uh as a
6:13not [clears throat] only for
6:14bodybuilding and for strength and
6:16aesthetic purposes but as a health
6:19intervention. um the focus like the
6:22American College of Sports Medicine
6:24their focus was almost always their
6:25position stance were really focused on
6:27aerobic exercise and its effect on
6:29longevity and really going back
6:31certainly in the n in the before 2000.
6:34Uh very little hard research on
6:38resistance training as a
6:40>> uh lifestyle modality for longevity and
6:43for quality of life etc. And I think
6:46we're becoming more and more attuned now
6:48to not only what resistance training can
6:51do, but that it actually has probably in
6:53my humble opinion, now I am a resistance
6:56training researcher primarily, but it it
6:59is the most important intervention I
7:01think that anyone can do not only for
7:04their for looks and strength, but for
7:06their overall health.
7:07>> Yeah, I agree. And and protecting
7:10against some of these signatures of
7:12aging.
7:12>> Correct.
7:13>> Right. And and we often say, and I've
7:14said it in in the past on this podcast,
7:17you know, I don't love using the word
7:19longevity anymore. I think it's getting
7:20a bit bastardized, but um you know, that
7:24longevity in my eyes is, you know, we
7:26take these two, you know, 90 year olds
7:29and we you can do this exercise right
7:31now. Think of all the 90-year-olds, you
7:33know, you know, how many of them are
7:35running around a football pitch with the
7:36grandchildren on their shoulders? Not
7:37that many, right? Most are unfortunately
7:41struggling with fragility, weakness,
7:43sometimes codependence, immobility,
7:46yet the ability to produce force
7:49quickly, the ability to produce a higher
7:51level of force, to be mobile, to have
7:52high heart and lung function. We know
7:54how to achieve those things. And if we
7:56can do that, we can get we have a much
7:58much higher chance of being that
7:5990-year-old running around the football
8:01pitch. I think and and what one
8:04discussion we've had previously was if
8:06that's the case and we have this huge
8:08corpus of evidence, human evidence to
8:11know that that works, why isn't everyone
8:14doing it?
8:15>> Yeah. So, look, that's certainly
8:17multiffactorial. And to your point, I
8:19couldn't agree more that longevity,
8:21we're we're becoming now so efficient
8:24and proficient medically that we're able
8:26to keep people alive for very long
8:28periods of time. But many of the people
8:30were keeping alive are being kept alive
8:32in a very
8:34>> un
8:36they have a dependency on others to tend
8:38to them during [clears throat] this
8:39period.
8:40>> And to me, it's quality of life is much
8:42more important. you could just be
8:43living, you can be breathing and and
8:46eating, but if you're having someone
8:47spoon feed you and have to, you know,
8:49wheel you around to get anywhere in a
8:52wheelchair, uh how how is that really
8:54living? You know, to me, uh it's our
8:57physical independence is is prominent
9:00here.
9:02>> And again, why I think it is certainly
9:04multiffactorial when you're talking uh
9:07some people who are quite old. I think
9:09it's more just how they were raised. You
9:12know, if you go back, we just were
9:14talking that resistance training really
9:16hasn't come into prominence since the
9:18past 20 or so years. Certainly for older
9:21individuals, for lifestyle. Um I I think
9:25women it's uh are coming around much
9:28more slowly again because of societal
9:31norms that it was first of all if you go
9:33back one of the things a course I took
9:35in my master's program was the tradition
9:38of how women it was women in exercise
9:41and how it was promoted and if you go
9:44back like to early 1900s women were told
9:48that if they exercise they'd be
9:49infertile I mean some of the myths these
9:51are medical these were doctors that were
9:53giving these uh prescriptions to women
9:56and um and it wasn't feminine. Then of
9:59course we'll get too bulky. My god,
10:01we're gonna
10:02>> um so I think that still is somewhat um
10:05prevalent prevalent this standpoint.
10:09>> Again, some people I mean there's time
10:11factors. A lot of people think that it
10:13just requires too much time to
10:15resistance strain. Uh I think a lot of
10:17people just still aren't aware of the
10:19benefits of it that it's still uh some a
10:23lot of people don't keep up with
10:24research and uh
10:25>> let's talk about some of those benefits.
10:27Why why do we now widely consider the
10:31retention of lean tissue but strength
10:33and power as protective? You know why
10:36why is that the currency of longevity?
10:38Certainly when we look at this very wide
10:41corpus of evidence, right, and we've
10:42spoken about this in depth in the past,
10:45we're being told in the media that there
10:48are dozens of different things we should
10:50be taking, doing, investing in to
10:53protect our against, you know, physical
10:55and cognitive decline. None of them have
10:57more evidence in humans than exercise
11:00yet. I mean, what was this? You you told
11:01me a statistic recently about the number
11:04of people, percentage of US population
11:07who resistance train. about 20% of uh
11:10Americans, people in the United States
11:14>> uh regularly are regularly doing what
11:17would be considered the recommended
11:20amount of muscle strengthening exercise
11:22every week.
11:23>> Okay. So, let's let's start by talking
11:25about if if people were doing the
11:28recommended amount and we'll move on to
11:29what that is. What are the associated
11:32benefits?
11:33>> Yeah. Well, the obvious one is how
11:35someone looks, which is a very important
11:37thing to most people. They want to look
11:39in you look better, you feel better. The
11:42another obvious one is strength, but and
11:45strength and power, which I'll get to in
11:46a second. But a lot of people think,
11:48yeah, I can lift things. It makes you
11:50more functional to do your activities of
11:52daily living. One of the really
11:54important things to understand that if
11:55you do not do resistance training, you
11:59will begin to lose fundamental muscle
12:01mass at the rate of about 1 half% per
12:04year, sometime in your 30s, the average
12:06person.
12:07>> Some of this will depend how sedentary
12:09they are. Uh that starts to go up
12:11exponentially after someone is in their
12:1450s to 60s. So it goes up to one, one
12:16and a half, even two% per year during
12:18that time. Um the I don't want to get
12:22too technical here but there are two
12:24basic types of muscle fibers. There are
12:26type one muscle fibers which are
12:28enduranceoriented fibers and we have
12:30type two fibers which are strength
12:32oriented fibers. They fatigue more
12:34easily whereas the type one fibers they
12:36as the name would imply they're
12:38enduranceoriented. They don't fatigue as
12:40much. But the type one fibers do not
12:42allow you to produce as much force. Your
12:44type two your strength related fibers
12:46are our force producing fibers.
12:48Muscle power is produced primarily
12:51through your type two muscle fibers and
12:53you actually lose there's good evidence
12:56that there's a loss of type two fibers.
12:58It's very specific and you can lose 25%
13:02is when you start getting into your 60s
13:04and 70s 25% of your type two fibers. Why
13:07is that really important? Well, beyond
13:09the fact that you're going to be less
13:10functional to do your activity
13:12activities of daily living, uh, one of
13:15the biggest threats to longevity and
13:18certainly physical independence is a hip
13:20fracture.
13:22>> And older individuals are much more
13:24prone to hip fractures if they lose
13:27their type two muscle fibers because
13:30they're when let's say they have
13:32experience a fall. Number one, balance
13:34itself is going to be improved during
13:35resistance training. But even if you
13:37just somehow lose your balance, you're
13:39you need to be able to quickly reverse
13:41that fall. And that's done again through
13:44having greater power.
13:45>> Uh there's really good evidence, and
13:48it's been a while since I looked at
13:49these stats on this, but going back 10
13:53years or so when I actually did a deep
13:54dive here, it was something like 50% of
13:57all older adults who experience a hip
14:00fracture never regain their physical
14:02independence. And I think within two
14:04years they are they're dead. uh the
14:08average individual
14:10>> which is frightening
14:12>> and I guess it's safe to say in the
14:15absence of modality to protect against
14:19that that will happen right like we will
14:21atrophy time
14:22>> for everyone right and I think yeah
14:25>> those numbers are frightening and I
14:26think like 20 to 30% I think you've
14:28already mentioned but that's per decade
14:30after the age of 60 I believe so like we
14:33could be
14:34>> correct yeah yeah could be
14:36>> and So, it feels like there is this very
14:39obvious urgency for us all to be doing
14:42this thing. And again, correct me if I'm
14:45wrong, anytime after the age of 30, that
14:48feels urgent, but we should probably be
14:50starting earlier. But given that this
14:53is, you know, we have a lot of research
14:55now to to lean in that direction and we
14:58know that it works and we know that it's
15:00important. But for the people who are a
15:04little bit older and didn't have access
15:05to that knowledge until very recently,
15:09it's still not too late to start, right?
15:11And I think that's one of the most
15:12encouraging things about this field,
15:14about exercise in general. we see some
15:16incredible improvements in people in
15:18their 70s, 80s, 90s even when they're
15:21starting late. C can you speak to that?
15:24>> So, to your point, the earlier you
15:26start, the better. Uh there's some good
15:29evidence in Mast's athletes who've
15:31trained their whole lives that they
15:32retain the majority of their muscle mass
15:34as they did when they were in their 20s.
15:36You don't really lose much. But for
15:39those who are older, I mean, a
15:41compelling amount of evidence shows that
15:44there's huge benefits even with
15:46relatively short over short periods of
15:47time. So our lab carried out a meta
15:50analysis on this topic and the oldest of
15:52old which are 75 and older or or not
15:56necessarily the oldest but older you
15:58know the more old individuals
16:01>> and we found that within 8 to 12 week
16:05programs
16:07uh there was a
16:08>> and this is in effect sizes which gives
16:10you a a magnitude of effect but it
16:13almost doubled the amount of strength
16:15over a 8 to 12 week time. effect size
16:18was one for strength. And again, that's
16:20just huge. We're talking a three uh two
16:23to three month period. The one of the
16:26coolest studies that I've ever that has
16:28ever been done in my opinion was carried
16:31out in the uh I think it was 1990, but
16:33it was in 90 year olds in nursing homes
16:35and it was 10 subjects.
16:38Uh Maria Fidone was the lead author here
16:41and they had them do just leg extensions
16:44three days a week. It was three sets of
16:46eight, eight to 10 reps, I believe.
16:48>> And some people would say leg extension
16:50is like the least functional exercise
16:52you can do. Yeah.
16:54>> Just
16:55>> they experiencedund
16:57um strength gains of 150% in their knee
17:00extensors.
17:01>> 50% improvement in functional capacity
17:04with the just leg extension. But here's
17:06the coolest thing. Three out of the 10
17:08subjects were able to walk without
17:10assistance of their canes after an 8week
17:13training program. Wow. to walk with the
17:15without the assistance of their canes.
17:17And what is more functional than being
17:19able to walk unassisted?
17:20>> Yeah.
17:21>> So again, it's just profound and again
17:24doesn't take long. The real take-home
17:27here is that not only do you see huge
17:28benefits, but it happens very rapidly.
17:31The body is very plastic in this regard.
17:34So we we know it works
17:38for I think it's safe to say everyone
17:40every time you know in the absence of of
17:43any contra indications or injury history
17:45you know if you do the thing that it
17:47works it has this profound impact on
17:49quality of life which is I think
17:51>> the most frightening thing about aging
17:54certainly for me but I think for most
17:55people is that loss of function physical
17:57and cognitive we're all fighting this
18:00losing battle and this is one of the
18:02best if not the best tool to protect
18:04against that loss of function.
18:07But yet 80% of people in the US are not
18:09doing it. And I think you know we can
18:12attribute some of that to knowledge and
18:15access kind of um you know it's a lot
18:18more accessible than it was both the
18:20knowledge and the ability to do it. I
18:22think the hardest thing is it's just a
18:24lot of effort right and I think however
18:28you slice it lifting heavy things is a
18:30lot of effort. And so I think one one
18:33question I get asked a lot is how do I
18:36get the highest possible yield on my
18:38time? Like how do I get the outcome with
18:40the minimal amount of effort? And I
18:42don't think that's an unreasonable
18:43question. I think that's kind of how
18:45what I want to do as well. You know, we
18:47want to get we want to get the result
18:49but not have to spend hours and hours in
18:50the gym every week or every day. So is
18:54there a I'm sure we get asked this a
18:56lot. Is there a minimal effective dose?
18:58Is there a sort of benchmark at which we
19:02see things work but for not a huge
19:04amount of time and effort?
19:05>> Yeah. So I I think we need to
19:07distinguish uh time from effort in terms
19:10of the effort that you put into your
19:11training. Yeah.
19:12>> Uh timewise it really does not require
19:16much time. It actually requires a lot
19:18less time than aerobic exercise does to
19:20see huge benefits. Our minimum effective
19:23dose is somewhere around four to perhaps
19:26six sets per muscle per week. And how
19:29does that how do we put that into
19:30practice? We're talking about two
19:32halfhour training sessions, resistance
19:34training sessions per week. You can see
19:36huge benefits. That's just doing one set
19:40of of each maj of an exercise for each
19:44major muscle group. And again, that can
19:45be done in literally 30 minutes uh per
19:48session. So, two 30 minute sessions,
19:50you're talking one hour can get you very
19:53large benefit.
19:53>> One hour total per week.
19:55>> Total per week. Uh, now again, you're
19:57not going to step on stage as a
19:59bodybuilder with that type of routine,
20:01but you can get a very large bang for
20:03your buck and most people are not
20:05looking to step on stage as a
20:06bodybuilder. So,
20:08>> uh, again, goals of course are going to
20:10be relevant here. If you want to start
20:12training for athletic prowess and other
20:14things, that's going to require is a
20:16principle of specificity.
20:18Uh but what I will say and this goes to
20:20the effort aspect, the sets do need to
20:22be hard. You have to put in a intensity
20:25of effort where the last several
20:27repetitions are challenging to complete.
20:29If you're not struggling, uh that's
20:31you're not going to achieve the results
20:34that you you'd want. Again, at the
20:35beginning, if you just do almost
20:37anything, you'll get some results, even
20:39training with
20:40>> very light weights to way far from
20:42failure. You don't necessarily have to
20:44go to failure, but uh you need to be
20:46relatively close to so you need to be
20:49struggling on the last few reps. That of
20:51course can be somewhat intimidating for
20:53people because discomfort is not
20:55something that people it's goes against
20:58human nature. Uh but you have to be
21:00willing to uh to train relatively hard.
21:04>> Can can you explain this concept of reps
21:06in reserve? Yeah. Um because you know I
21:09think that's a great way of helping
21:11people to understand know really what
21:13does that mean you know what does it
21:14mean to work hard yes so repetitions in
21:17reserve is how far someone perceives
21:20they are from failure and failure the
21:23definition that I use and that we use in
21:25research is the inability to complete
21:27another repetition with proper form
21:29>> right
21:30>> or assistance
21:32>> uh so if you're let's say at a ri which
21:34is repetitions and reserve abbreviated
21:37if you're an RA of one, that means you
21:39could have done one more rep or you
21:40think you could have done one more rep.
21:42If you had an RI of two, you could have
21:44done two more. Here's the problem.
21:46Unless you've trained to failure, you
21:49don't have a good gauge of what your RA
21:51is. And there's been some good research
21:54showing that most people
21:55>> think they are a lot closer to failure
21:57than they are because they've never
21:58really trained to failure.
22:00In our lab when we do we carry out a
22:02research study
22:03>> and we get people and some of them are
22:05quite
22:06>> impressively jacked but a lot of that's
22:08genetics. These are young individuals.
22:10We get them in and they
22:12>> they start getting really good results
22:13and they say I've never trained this
22:15hard in my life and
22:16>> they thought they were training a lot
22:17harder than they were.
22:18>> Yeah. So again I think um the important
22:21thing is you do if you want to gauge
22:23RAIR you do need to train to failure at
22:26some point early on particularly early
22:28on in your training to understand now
22:30>> you don't necessarily have to use an RA
22:32you can use what's called an RP which is
22:35a rating of perceived exertion which is
22:37usually on a 1 to 10 scale and like nine
22:39would be extremely hard
22:42again for the uh average individual if
22:45you're training where you're perceiving
22:47it's really hard you're probably going
22:49to be close. You don't have to gauge
22:51exactly, you know, I'm at a 2IR.
22:54>> If you if you can I think if you can
22:58accurately assess that you're training
23:00really hard, you'll be somewhere in that
23:01range.
23:02>> But again, people sometimes don't want
23:05to do that and they can say, "Yeah, I
23:07think I'm training really hard." When
23:08they actually know they're not.
23:10>> Well, I think sometimes as well, we can
23:12let perfection become the enemy of done.
23:14Right. And if 80% of people are not
23:16doing it at all or or to at least that
23:20minimal effective dose,
23:22I would say they don't have to concern
23:24themselves too much with what that
23:26actually means.
23:27>> Correct.
23:27>> Just make it hard, right? Hard enough at
23:30least.
23:31>> Um,
23:32>> okay. Interesting. So for the people who
23:34are not doing anything, it appears that
23:36or we have good evidence that you know
23:38two well structured half an hour
23:41sessions a week would be a great place
23:44to start, right? And that would be
23:46focusing on you know one exercise for
23:48each major muscle muscle muscle group.
23:51Um and then at what rep range did you
23:53say would be a good start? So in the
23:56early phases if you're just starting out
23:58I generally recommend somewhat higher
24:00repetitions somewhere like 10 to 15.
24:02Yeah. The reason is there's a motor
24:04learning aspect. So if you're just first
24:06of all number one you wouldn't want to
24:07do very heavy loads anyway because
24:09there's greater chance of injury. It's
24:11just not a good riskreward. Um, but when
24:14you're doing more repetitions,
24:16repetitions reinforce neural patterns
24:19and basically you're learning to to uh
24:22to perform movement patterns. So, if
24:24you're just doing let's say you're
24:26stopping at six reps or eight reps, uh
24:29you're just not going to get enough rep
24:31or it's going to require a longer time
24:33to get that those neural patterns. the
24:35more repetitions you can get in, which
24:37by the way, so that would be your again
24:39your minimal dose. If you want better
24:41results and results more quickly, add on
24:44another day and do three days a week,
24:46hour and a half instead of an hour.
24:47>> So, let's talk then for the people that
24:49are already doing some form of
24:52resistance training. What does gold
24:54standard look like for you? And I
24:57realize that that is a loaded question
24:58because it depends on what you're trying
25:00to achieve. But for someone trying to
25:02protect against phys physical decline
25:05and they were like, "Look, Brad, you can
25:07design my whole program in any way that
25:10you please. I'm injuryfree." What would
25:12that look like?
25:13>> Well, they looking to be a bodybuilder
25:14and maximize their genetic potential. or
25:17they look just looking because again
25:18this is where tradeoffs are going to
25:20start to happen in terms of how much you
25:22you need to pre-plan your routine
25:25periodize it over time and do other
25:27things. So
25:28>> I would I would say the case study here
25:29is for someone who wants to build lean
25:32tissue
25:34um they're not looking to compete as a
25:35bodybuilder but they're looking to
25:37maximize performance function for that
25:41stage of their life.
25:42>> Yeah. I would say then you want to bump
25:44that up. the uh recommendation I gave
25:46earlier and do about six to 10 probably
25:49or eight to 10 sets per muscle per week.
25:53uh that generally could be accomplished
25:55probably around four day uh in a four
25:57day I'm sorry four hour a week training
26:00uh so you could either do that probably
26:02you don't want to do that in two days
26:04because a two-hour training session is
26:05just not
26:06>> there you're a maniac if you're doing
26:07two
26:08>> right right but you know three days a
26:09week you can fairly uh easily accomplish
26:12that or a four day let's say 1 hour four
26:14days a week type of thing 45 minutes
26:16even to an hour um you want to have a
26:19little more variety of training because
26:21muscles have different attach
26:22attachments and you're looking to work
26:23muscles from different angles to to
26:25maximize development on those muscles.
26:28So a little more variation in movement
26:31patterns I think come start becoming
26:33important. Um
26:36I think training across and again this
26:38is where nuances start coming in but
26:40training across a spectrum of repetition
26:42ranges potentially can uh can be
26:46important there or I want to say
26:47important it might squeeze out a little
26:50more
26:50>> bit more juice from the lemon
26:51>> juice from the lemon. Yeah. Yeah. Uh so
26:53I mean that's kind of a just basic
26:55protocol and then the more you want to
26:57start saying now I want more and more
26:59then that's where the more planning
27:00comes into play and varying the routine
27:02over time
27:04>> uh even manipulating repetition ranges
27:07changing exercises around. So training
27:09can be a very hard science. Yes. Or or
27:13you know have a lot of require a lot of
27:15planning and scientific knowledge or it
27:17can be very basic where you just go in
27:19and do a basic routine. the more you
27:21want to optimize, the the more you need
27:23to really have an understanding of what
27:26science shows and then then be your kind
27:28of your own n equals one experiment
27:30where you're willing to do different
27:32things and figure out what's working.
27:35>> One thing I've noticed over the years is
27:38we we obviously have this um appetite
27:42for variety, right? like as individuals
27:44and I'm I'm certainly guilty of this
27:47where you know I know that there is
27:50tremendous value in consistency and
27:52progressive overload gradually making
27:55the same workout slightly harder whether
27:58that's adding a rep or a set or reducing
28:01rest just volume in general
28:04but it's kind of boring sometimes right
28:06and I think the one thing I've noticed
28:08is that people love creating variety
28:12within in the modality of exercise they
28:15do, but also like intra workout, like
28:17doing different exercises, different rep
28:19range, different sets. And I know you
28:20just mentioned that there is some value
28:22to that, but there's also some downside
28:24to that, right? When it comes to
28:26actually making progress and I think
28:27everyone listening will be familiar with
28:30the feeling that they're not making much
28:32progress even though they've been doing
28:33this for a long time. Can can you speak
28:35to that because I think that's really
28:36important. So, first of all, there's
28:38going to be a trade-off. And uh the most
28:40important thing in a resistance training
28:42program or in any exercise program is
28:44adherence.
28:45>> You just talked about can you can you
28:46design the optimal program? Yeah, sure.
28:48But is the person going to follow that
28:50program? Yeah.
28:51>> And to your point, variety. People like
28:55I look I was a bodybuilder for many
28:57years and fun did not enter into my my
29:00mindset. It was what is going to give me
29:02my best results. If you would have told
29:04me to eat the grass off my lawn because
29:05it was going to make me more jacked or
29:07more cut, I would have done that.
29:09>> Um, but that's the minutia of the
29:14population. Most people, they want it
29:15fun. And varying your routine can be
29:18something that gives more interest to
29:20the routine. If that does, if that's
29:22going to be kind of a deal breaker
29:23where, yeah, it's not fun. I'm bored.
29:25I'm not going to do something else. Then
29:28do, you know, that's
29:29>> do the thing you're going to stick to.
29:31stick with. Now, to your point, too much
29:34variety can be detrimental because you
29:36start particularly on your more complex
29:39movement patterns. If you're going to do
29:40free weight type exercise like a squat,
29:42let's say you do a squat, uh, and you
29:45have that as part of your routine, and
29:46you do it today, you don't do it again
29:48for three months or two months, your
29:50squat's going to suck. Yeah. You're not
29:53going to be able to, your form is going
29:55to start to deteriorate.
29:56>> It's less somewhat less of an issue with
29:58a lot of machine-based exercises.
30:00Certainly single joint, if you're doing
30:01a biceps curl, generally there's not
30:03much motor learning to those types of
30:05movements. So you can vary those
30:07movements a little more frequently, but
30:09certainly on your more complex
30:11movements, keeping them in a regular
30:12rotation becomes, I think, more and more
30:15important, particularly as you want to
30:17get keep progressing if that's your
30:19goal. And I'd also say that um it allows
30:23you to understand your progression
30:24because you're going to need to progress
30:26over time.
30:27>> Yeah. uh if you're going to again
30:29challenge your muscles that what you're
30:31training today, the weight load you're
30:33training with the number of reps are not
30:34going to be the same in three months.
30:36>> Yeah.
30:36>> You're going to get stronger. You're
30:38going to be able to handle more more
30:39load.
30:40>> You really want to to to some extent be
30:43able to track that. Yeah.
30:44>> And if you're just all over the place,
30:46it becomes more difficult to get a sense
30:48of
30:49>> so so remove as much guesswork as you
30:51can and then you'll know that the time
30:53that you're putting in is actually
30:54getting you a result. And we often talk
30:56about using some of these tools to build
30:59a suit of armor to protect against some
31:02of these hallmarks of aging. And I think
31:03that's such a great uh analogy for
31:06resistance training, right? We are
31:08literally doing that.
31:09>> And and if we are Do you track all of
31:11your workouts?
31:12>> I don't anymore. No, I don't anymore. Uh
31:15certainly when I was a bodybuilder, not
31:16only did I track it, I mean I
31:18>> Were you maniacal about? I yeah, I
31:20detailed every set of every every rep of
31:23every set every week in a notebook. That
31:26was the old school before we even had
31:28Excel spreadsheets and and uh apps to do
31:32that type of thing.
31:33>> Uh but I mean I know I don't have to
31:36track it at this point because I just
31:37know I've been intuitively
31:38>> I'm old. I've been training long enough
31:40where I I know all this stuff. So
31:43>> you've probably got a very good grip on
31:46reps and reserve and Yeah. Yeah. Huh? I
31:50noticed you did some work recently on
31:52rest periods.
31:55What's the coup there, Brad? Because
31:57I've heard conflicting opinions there.
31:59You know, my perspective
32:01is do everything quickly because I like
32:03to just get it done. Um, but I know
32:05there's some there's some evidence to
32:08show that slightly longer rest periods
32:09might yield a better return. Is that
32:11right?
32:11>> Correct. That's when doing straight
32:13sets. So, when you're doing, let's say,
32:14a set of bench press and then you rest
32:16and then you do another set of bench.
32:18There's other ways we could talk about
32:19to make workouts more time efficient,
32:21but uh in straight sets uh we did a meta
32:25analysis that was published last year
32:28and quite interesting the cut point
32:30seemed to be somewhere around 90 seconds
32:32when it was below 90 seconds rest. Uh
32:35there was you compromised your your this
32:38was just hypertrophy. We didn't look at
32:40strength. You compromised muscle growth.
32:42>> Now that said, you still grow grew. It
32:45wasn't like you didn't get any gains at
32:48that point
32:49>> and you got more efficient workout. The
32:51workout took less. So the question
32:53becomes
32:55because you just do one minute rest and
32:56then take do another set to make up for
32:58the because really increase the volume.
33:02>> Correct. The reason that it seems or at
33:03least that we speculate there was a uh a
33:07decrease in in muscle growth was because
33:10if you're resting very short periods,
33:12it's going to compromise the amount of
33:13load or the number of reps. either way
33:15that you're doing on your subsequent
33:17sets,
33:18>> right?
33:18>> So, if you make that up with an extra
33:20set because you still have more time in
33:22the gym, conceivably, there's not been a
33:24study, well, I shouldn't even say that.
33:26We actually did a study that some
33:29somewhat looked at that where we had I
33:31collaborated with a group in Brazil
33:33where we had one group rested three
33:35minutes, another group rested one minute
33:37and then we had a third group that
33:39rested one minute but made up the sets
33:43>> uh of the to be equated to with the
33:45volume load that was done in the three
33:47minutes equal hypertrophy.
33:50Um and if I recall it was slightly and
33:53it was less time. So the one minute rest
33:56was able to do that with less time
33:58total. Uh so again that was one study
34:01was just on um quads. It was a quad
34:04exercise. So uh you can't draw too much
34:07into that but I think it gives us some
34:10insight. Now I'll give you some an
34:13interesting uh tidbit here. We're
34:17currently in the process of carrying out
34:18a study on self- selected rest.
34:23So, I I never time my rest intervals.
34:26>> Uh I just I train. When I feel I'm ready
34:29to do another set, I do another set. Um
34:32so, we have one group that's resting two
34:34minutes. The other group, we just say
34:37rest as long as you need to until you
34:39feel that you are recovered enough. And
34:42[clears throat] there's a key here. We
34:43took away their cell phones. We do not
34:45let them use their cell phone.
34:46>> I bet those breasts dropped. Yeah.
34:48>> Yeah. Well, it gives a true sense of
34:49what they're actually feeling recovered.
34:52>> We do. We're just finishing up this
34:54study now, so I don't have any results
34:55for you. But interestingly, the um self-
34:59select
35:00>> rested over a minute longer than the
35:03which yeah, I it was somewhat surprising
35:06to me that I would have thought they
35:07would
35:08>> would have thought they were coming. And
35:09there was some other acute studies. This
35:12is the first study actually to measure
35:14muscle growth. So, we're going to
35:15actually look at strength and muscle
35:16growth. So, the results will be
35:18interesting. Now, if it does show that
35:21the extra rest translated into greater
35:24gains, I'm somewhat skeptical that's the
35:26case based on our previous literature,
35:28>> then maybe it's worth, you know, or we
35:31can re re-evaluate those
35:33recommendations. Do you think there is
35:36um for the people that are really trying
35:39to maximize or minimize the amount of
35:42time they take doing these sessions, the
35:45like concept of sort of supersetting
35:47different muscle groups, different body
35:49parts, you know, if I were to bench
35:51press and then go on to, you know, a
35:54walking lunge for example, I'm giving my
35:56upper body time to recover. That would
35:58yield then the same return as doing
36:00nothing. But you're condensing the
36:01amount of time it takes to do the
36:03session. Can I get away with that?
36:05>> Yeah. So, well, we carried out a study
36:07in my lab um a little over a year ago.
36:09One of my master students did it for his
36:12thesis where we we didn't do upper
36:14lower. We did um supersets agonist
36:17antagonist. So, it's like biceps,
36:18triceps. You do a bicep exercise, then
36:21you go immediately to a tricep. You do a
36:22quad exercise immediately to a hamstring
36:25versus doing straight sets of the same
36:26exercise.
36:28>> No different. The uh superset finished
36:30the workouts in almost 40% less time.
36:33and the hypertrophy was very similar.
36:35>> Love it.
36:36>> Let's talk quickly about different
36:39modalities of exercise. I want to hear
36:40your perspective on this. So, you know,
36:43we're often, and again, I think there's
36:44a lot of confusing, conflicting advice
36:47about, you know, the time we spend
36:49exercise. Should it be cardio? Should it
36:51be resistance training? Should it be a
36:53hybrid of both? How how do you split
36:55your time across those modalities?
36:57>> Yeah. So, personally, um, I am a big fan
37:00of doing cardiovascular exercise. I do
37:02want to point out that resistance
37:04training particularly in the type of
37:06modality if you're not powerlifting or
37:08weight you know Olympic weightlifting
37:10which are somewhat different but you get
37:12cardiovascular benefits respiratory
37:15somewhat less you don't train your
37:16respiratory system nearly as much but I
37:18think combining as much as I'm a fan I
37:21said I think resistance training is the
37:23most important uh intervention that you
37:25can do physically
37:26>> y
37:27>> um I do not discount aerobic training
37:30and I think that the combination of the
37:31two certainly I want to say I think
37:33there's huge amount of evidence that
37:35they're synergistic healthwise and
37:38>> uh what I do personally is I resistance
37:41train I I resistance train four days a
37:43week I do 45 minutes to an hour sessions
37:46kind of like what we talked about
37:47earlier I do an upper lower split so I
37:49do my upper body twice a week lower body
37:51twice a week
37:52>> and then I look at a step count um
37:55>> so I I I have a dog soon to be two
37:59>> and I walk my dogs uh and I listen at uh
38:03my Spanish lessons so I can get better
38:05at learning Spanish. But anyway, I
38:06listen to audio books on my headphones
38:09and I look to to get at least 10,000
38:12steps a day. There's nothing magical
38:14about 10,000 steps. But it's kind of a
38:16good gauge within the literature
38:18somewhere in that range. If I miss
38:2010,000 one day, fine. If I'm I'm over it
38:22a lot too.
38:24>> Um now there is benefit to doing
38:26highintensity interval training.
38:28>> Yeah. uh you get better
38:30cardiorespiratory fitness so your V2 max
38:33but walking gets you a lot again the
38:36bang for your buck uh is very high I
38:39have in the past um done uh
38:42high-intensity interfraing as well it's
38:45just my schedule is such that I've kind
38:47of let that slip
38:48>> but I I don't think
38:50>> the added effect I think it you probably
38:53get some but again you're now talking
38:54like the cherry on top of the Sunday
38:57>> yeah But prioritize I I think certainly
39:00as you get older prioritizing resistance
39:03training is a very smart idea based on
39:05the literature.
39:06>> Correct. And you can get again the for
39:08me the uh cardiovascular step count is
39:11kind of gotten just within my daily
39:12activities. It's not like I need to I
39:15don't walk on a treadmill to do that.
39:16Yeah.
39:17>> I try to just get that in within uh
39:19within my lifesty. I think there's some
39:20huge benefits as well to this sort of
39:23middle ground that's becoming a lot more
39:24popular and this sort of hybrid style
39:27training where um you know you're just
39:30doing the if you break it down you're
39:32really just doing resistance training
39:33exercises a bit quicker, right? Like
39:35you're doing still kind of a high volume
39:37but it's getting heart lung function
39:39working a little harder. I think there's
39:40value there because it seems to be
39:42something that people enjoy a little
39:44more at times and it's, you know, a bit
39:46more engaging and there's variety. I
39:48think you just got to be careful not to
39:49do not to use that in the absence of
39:53structured resistance training. I would
39:54say
39:55>> agreed. I mean there's something called
39:56circuit training where you move around
39:58the circuit with very little rest and
40:00that does get you even more
40:01cardiorespiratory cardiovascular
40:03benefits but still not as much as
40:06cardiovascular exercise.
40:07>> Yeah.
40:08>> So there's again the trade-off. It
40:09depends how you know what what are your
40:12ultimate goals. How how much of that
40:15Sunday do you want to get to the top
40:17where you get the cherry?
40:18>> I we always say to our to our members um
40:20and on the podcast, I think this is one
40:23of the things obviously we have and I'm
40:27banging my head against the brick wall
40:28here. We have tremendous evidence that
40:30this works for helping you live a
40:32longer, healthier life. We know that.
40:35The the challenge then is how do I do
40:37this with consistency and then how do I
40:38do it in a way that doesn't suck the fun
40:40out of life? I think that's also
40:41important because to what end are we
40:43doing it otherwise
40:44>> and one really good sort of takeaway I
40:47think is to make
40:48>> this time whether it's 30 minutes twice
40:52a week or whether it's an hour four
40:53times a week but carve that into your
40:55schedule in a way that is non-negotiable
40:58right and so everyone in your life
41:00should be aware that this time is for me
41:03to refill my cup and this time is for
41:06specifically for doing something that I
41:08know to work whatever modality that
41:10might be. Would you agree with that
41:12principle? And a second layered part of
41:15that question is at what time of the day
41:17do you think is most optimal to carve
41:19that in?
41:20>> So to your first question, I consider my
41:24exercise routine the way I do brushing
41:26my teeth. I don't particularly enjoy
41:28brushing my teeth. Uh but at least twice
41:31a day I make in the morning and the
41:33evening I brush my teeth. Sometimes
41:34three
41:35>> and flossing, you know. I mean this is
41:37just stuff that's part of my routine.
41:40uh I if I don't make my routine, I feel
41:43that I have neglected my health. It's
41:45just like if I didn't brush my teeth.
41:47>> Uh so it is non-negotiable.
41:49>> As far as timing, it's again whatever
41:52time is best for you. Personally, I like
41:54doing it in the morning. That way stuff
41:56can't get away from me in the evening
41:57and all of a sudden now I have to miss
41:58my workout. Like if I do it early in the
42:01morning, I know I'm getting that in and
42:03>> if for some reason something fails, I
42:05can always work out a little later. I
42:07can try to to get that in. But to me,
42:09there is no I do want to point out there
42:11is no best time of day. There's like
42:13tracadian rhythm research and stuff in
42:16my opinion. I I'm not saying that it's
42:18not valid research, but it it kind of
42:21misses the forest from the trees in my
42:23opinion
42:24>> that number one, by the way, I used to
42:26work out uh you know earlier in my
42:29career when I had different job and uh
42:32different responsibilities later in the
42:34day. And when I first started uh
42:37training in the morning, it was awkward
42:39for me and I didn't feel good, right?
42:40>> I adapted very quickly. So, a lot of
42:42this research, they do acute research
42:44and say, "Oh, this people do better
42:46training in the evening or whatever."
42:47Well, yeah, if you take them and their
42:49evening trainers, if they're generally
42:51training in the evening, and you move
42:52them to the morning, and you ask them
42:54how they're feeling, well, yeah, they're
42:56they're not woken up yet and they're
42:57just not used to it. If you have them do
42:59that, ask them in two months how they're
43:01feeling.
43:01>> Well, if they do it consistently,
43:02>> consistently. And we actually carried
43:05out a mate analysis on this and showed
43:07that that there was no difference in
43:08hypertrophy when people were training
43:10morning or evening because again that
43:11[clears throat] would reflect the fact
43:13that they're doing it consistently over
43:15time. So it comes down to um adherence.
43:19If you like training in the morning and
43:20and even if you don't by the way if you
43:24um if you try to do something usually to
43:28me you kind of I enjoy training in the
43:30morning now so I didn't at the
43:31beginning. So it's not something you
43:33might say oh I hate doing that. You
43:35might not know because you haven't tried
43:37it.
43:37>> Sure. And it might it then you hope it
43:40becomes habitual. Yeah. Do you have um
43:43have you done any research around
43:45nutrient timing for this is a loaded
43:48question because I know you have but um
43:49around nutrient timing preworkout
43:52periodout post-workout.
43:55>> Yeah. So we've done really the
43:56post-workout. Well no we've done both.
43:58We've done pre versus post and one of
44:00the studies but we've done a lot with
44:02postworkout.
44:03Uh, and this is something I've done. I
44:06don't want to say 180 degree, but
44:07certainly like a 120 degree turn in my
44:11opinion really to what I used to
44:12believe. I was a new I was the uh guy
44:15back in the day when I was bodybuilding
44:16that would carry the shaker to the gym
44:18the minute my the
44:19>> I were a Tupperware guy, weren't you?
44:21>> I Oh, yeah.
44:22>> Yeah.
44:23>> A lot of Tupperware, stacked Tupperware.
44:26Um, pre pre-portioned meals. Um, but I
44:30would bring my shaker to the gym with my
44:32protein shake. The minute my last set
44:34was over, I'd slam that shake and got to
44:36hit my anabolic window of opportunity.
44:38And for those who don't know, there's
44:40there was early research showing that,
44:43and this was mostly acute research that
44:45looked at muscle protein synthesis,
44:47uh, that you had this anabolic window of
44:50roughly 45 minutes after the end of a
44:53workout. And after if you missed that
44:55window of opportunity, you went
44:57catabolic and you missed on gains.
45:00>> Yeah.
45:00>> And yeah, the evidence that we've
45:03accumulated over the past 15 years or so
45:06really refutes that it. Now, here's what
45:09I would say. If someone again, it's
45:11somewhat context dependent on goals. If
45:13you're a bodybuilder, if I was still
45:15bodybuilding, I would still slam my
45:17shake pretty quickly. Yeah. Because
45:18there may be a very slight game. We
45:20don't have the research we carry out
45:22isn't sophisticated enough, if you will,
45:25to tell if there's very
45:27slight differences, particularly in very
45:29high level athletes or bodybuilders. So,
45:32it's not there's no downside to doing it
45:34>> other than the stress that you know of
45:36making sure you're carrying your shaker
45:38with you.
45:39>> But for the vast majority of the
45:41population, it's not going to make any
45:42difference in my opinion, your gains. So
45:45uh I I would say that the most important
45:48factor is getting particularly protein.
45:51We're talking uh that was the most
45:53important factor for muscle development
45:55hitting your target protein intake which
45:57is somewhere around 1.6 grams per
46:01kilogram per day uh of protein.
46:05>> Is that 1.6 grams per kilogram of lean
46:09tissue or per kilogram of of total body
46:11weight? It's total body weight, but the
46:13evidence that we have on the topic is
46:16generally done on people who are
46:17relatively lean, right?
46:19>> So like our MPS, muscle protein
46:21synthetic data is done on males that are
46:2313 to 15% body fat, women that are 20%
46:27body fat. So you can't extrapolate. If
46:29you're 40% body fat, that is not going
46:31to work. You're taking a lot more
46:33protein than you're actually using. So
46:35you want to
46:36>> structure it to what you would be at
46:38that target. you know, 20% for women,
46:4115% for men roughly.
46:43>> And what was the what was the
46:45recommended amount of protein
46:47post-workout?
46:49>> Well, it used to be that you'd have 25
46:52to 40 grams of protein slammed after
46:54your shake. The general gist, and again,
46:58we've done research on this, seems to
47:01show that spreading out your protein
47:03intake relatively evenly over three to
47:06four meals, uh, within that 1.6 6 grams
47:09per kilogram. So let's say you're taking
47:11in 120 grams uh per day.
47:14>> Yeah,
47:14>> just giving a you know a number. Uh that
47:17would be 40 grams roughly at each meal
47:20that you'd want to get. Or if you're
47:21taking in four meals a day, 30 grams
47:23over four meals.
47:24>> Uh there is not good evidence at least
47:28up until fairly high protein intakes
47:30that
47:31>> you can't use. There's been some pe um
47:34research and certainly influencers who
47:36claim that you can't use more than or
47:39certainly you can't absorb more than 25
47:41grams of protein. That's just kind of
47:43silly just even from a survival like the
47:45body just is not meant to be that way.
47:48Absorption you absorb almost everything
47:50you're taking in absorption just means
47:52it goes through your goes into
47:53circulation. Now whether you actually
47:55use that for tissue building, I mean
47:57there's some pretty in my opinion
47:59compelling evidence at least 40 to 50
48:02grams and there's been a was a more
48:04recent study that looked at 100 grams
48:06being used over the course of 24 hours
48:09as opposed to 25 grams.
48:11>> Wow.
48:11>> So again, there was some we didn't have
48:13a midpoint, you know, like more it was
48:1625 versus 100. didn't look at 50 versus
48:19100 and see if there's starting to be
48:21and and certainly I would say at a
48:22certain point you're going to see
48:23diminishing returns there.
48:25>> Uh but we don't really have fine
48:27evidence on that.
48:29>> Huh. Brad, let's talk about some of
48:31these myths, misconceptions,
48:34the overreaching. You know, before we
48:36started recording, we were talking about
48:38the fact that, you know, there was just
48:41a lot of different perspectives on what
48:43we should and shouldn't be doing within
48:44this field. Um can I go through a few of
48:47them and get your perspective? So one
48:49thing that's become incredibly popular
48:51now is this hot cold therapy contrast
48:54whether it's a sauna or cold plunge. And
48:57I know there is some debate as to the
49:00efficacy certainly for hypertrophy the
49:02building of lean tissue for doing uh a
49:06sauna after which would make sense to me
49:08but then also some controversy about
49:11doing cold plunge. What's your
49:13perspective on both of them? I'm glad
49:15you asked because we have made analyses
49:17on both of those. So we had we did a
49:19meta analysis that was published last
49:21year on cold water immersion. So cold
49:24application po immediately post
49:26exercise. So there's some gaps in the
49:28literature here. But if you do um a cold
49:31plunge or cold water application within
49:3420 minutes or so after the end of a
49:36resistance training workout, you
49:38compromise muscle growth. And that was
49:40pretty clear from all the evidence we
49:41have. Um, and there's been some evidence
49:44that strength is compromised as well
49:46from it.
49:47>> Um, we don't have evidence. So, then of
49:50course I get questions, well, what about
49:52if you delayed the cold water plunge for
49:55six hours? And I would could say, I
49:57don't know. But the here's the theory is
49:59that cold water immersion blunts um
50:03blood flow to tissues. How do you
50:06recover? How is muscle um protein
50:08synthesis uh initiated? through nutrient
50:11delivery through the blood. So if you
50:13are
50:14>> cramping your blood supply to the target
50:16muscle, yeah,
50:17>> you're going to inhibit the muscle
50:20growth. It's just a natural rationale.
50:23So again, now it doesn't mean you don't
50:25grow the both groups. So if the one who
50:28didn't do any cold water application
50:29just grew more, but you still grew with
50:31cold water application
50:33>> and that's doing it every time. So, if
50:36someone is just really sore and they
50:38like doing an occasional cold plunge,
50:40it's probably not going to do anything.
50:42Yeah.
50:42>> So, I mean, I'm not saying never do a
50:44cold plunge if that's your game, but
50:46doing it repeatedly over time after each
50:49workout as a recovery strategy.
50:51>> If you don't care [clears throat] about
50:52muscle growth and you know, you're still
50:54going to grow to some extent, that's
50:56fine. Just un It's important to
50:58understand the limitations.
51:00>> It's not all that fun. I mean, one thing
51:03I I think this about both exercise and
51:06cold plunge.
51:08I don't actually enjoy doing either of
51:09them. You know, I enjoy the feeling that
51:11I get from like post-workout or after a
51:14cold plunge. I don't love the process.
51:17And so, I would say, you know, unless
51:19there is
51:21unless you really,
51:23in fact, I'm going to take that back. I
51:25don't love the process. I love the
51:27outcome. If you could split them and get
51:29the outcome for both without
51:30compromising, that seems like the right
51:31thing to do, right? What about sauna?
51:33Sauna on the flip side, I would imagine
51:36mechanistically you're getting more
51:38nutrient-rich blood to the muscle. So,
51:40does that have the opposite effect? Is
51:41it?
51:42>> I'll give you a scoop on this. We just
51:44completed a ma analysis literally a
51:46couple weeks ago, right,
51:47>> on that exact topic. And and for those
51:48who don't know, a ma analysis is where
51:50you look at all the research on a given
51:52topic. And basically you pull the
51:54studies to make one large study out of
51:56all the studies that are have looked at
51:59just doing heat application post
52:00exercise versus not nothing,
52:03>> no heat application.
52:04>> And there actually was a small positive
52:06effect of heat. Uh it was not it's not
52:09like it's a huge factor you're going to
52:11get jacked from doing heat after, but it
52:14certainly was not negative. There was a
52:16non- negative effect. And it was a small
52:19uh but potentially meaningful again
52:21depends upon I think for the average
52:23person it's not much to brag about but
52:25if you're a bodybuilder again something
52:27or a strength athlete
52:30>> I have a request then can you please
52:32study
52:34what would happen if they do their
52:35resistance training then they do the
52:36sauna and then they finish with cold
52:39plunge. Does that negate the downside of
52:42the cold plunge? So again, going back to
52:45the
52:46>> that's how I would feel optimal. Like
52:48that would be my ideal
52:50sequencing.
52:51>> We don't to my knowledge there's never
52:53been a study that's looked at that. But
52:54here's the what I would say just from a
52:56an applied standpoint from a logic
52:59standpoint. Heat enhances blood flow to
53:02tissue. So that does give a rationale
53:04why it may
53:05>> be positive. If you then supplant that
53:08with a cold later on, you're going to
53:10then blunt blood flow again, which to me
53:13just logically wouldn't work. Now, you
53:15have to carry out the study to be sure,
53:17but um I I would think that it probably
53:20anytime you're cutting off I shouldn't
53:22say cut off, but diminishing blood flow
53:25to tissues, it's not going to be good
53:27for muscle muscle development.
53:29>> No, that makes sense. Hey, can we switch
53:32it up a little because there is
53:33something that's been on my mind
53:34recently and I haven't brought it up
53:37with you since I last spoke to you.
53:38Sure.
53:38>> And that is, you know, there is this
53:40incredibly huge wave of GLP1 agonist use
53:44now. And obviously, we know they are a
53:47tremendously effective for people
53:49looking to or needing to lose a lot of
53:52weight. And I'm being very intentional
53:54when I say weight and not fat. My
53:57concern, and I've voiced this on the
53:59podcast a few times, is that given how
54:03important it is to retain this currency
54:05of longevity, lean tissue as we get
54:08older,
54:10if we are
54:12making people or sort of sacrificing
54:14people's appetite to then reduce total
54:17energy intake to lose weight is going to
54:21have a catastrophic effect on muscle.
54:23Right? I don't know the whole corpus of
54:26evidence. I know that you have been
54:28working on this recently.
54:30>> Um my worry, I guess, is long-term
54:34>> people that don't necessarily need to
54:35use that drug are sacrificing their
54:38long-term function for an aesthetic.
54:41>> Yeah. So, first of all, we do have a
54:43study that is actually uh going to be
54:45carried out very shortly on this topic.
54:47But there's a couple things to
54:48understand here. When you lose weight
54:52and you do not resistance train, you're
54:54going to lose lean tissue regardless of
54:56whether it's GLP-1 induced or you just
54:58go on a diet. Roughly 25% 20 to 25% of
55:03the weight loss on normal diets
55:06uh tends to be through lean tissue. With
55:10GLP1s, they tend to induce greater more
55:15rapid weight loss. And the more rapid
55:16the weight loss, the more lean tissue
55:18generally used. So some of the research
55:20has shown that
55:2330 to 40% of the weight loss is from
55:25lean tissue. Now a couple things with
55:27this though, you have to understand that
55:29lean tissue, the way that usually it's
55:31been studied here is through dexa.
55:34>> That is not necessarily muscle mass.
55:36Lean tissue is all we talk about lean
55:38tissue, it's fat free mass, which is all
55:40non-fat tissue in the body. What's the
55:42major component of that? Water weight.
55:45fat tissue has roughly is is atapose
55:49>> is comprised of roughly 20% water. So
55:51when you lose particularly more obese
55:53people, they have a lot of excess water
55:55in their fat cells which is being lost
55:57and that would be counted as lean mass
55:59loss
56:00>> in the dexa that's being looked at. And
56:04again, it's not looking the vast
56:06majority of these studies, people aren't
56:07resistance training as we know and
56:09particularly those who are overweight
56:10tend not to be on the resistance
56:13training
56:14>> uh bandwagon. So our study we're
56:17carrying out, we're going to have one
56:18group that's using resistance training
56:20and another that's not and then looking
56:22at the not only lean tissue we're going
56:24to do dexa but we're going to use MRI
56:26and actually look at the actual muscle
56:28development. I would certainly speculate
56:30that a large amount if not most or all
56:34of the muscle mass will be retained even
56:37with GOP1. Now if you start going really
56:39rapid weight loss I again this is where
56:42I think there's a lot of nuance. If
56:44you're very overweight or obese, uh you
56:47can lose weight more rapidly without
56:48losing nearly as much muscle mass. Where
56:51muscle mass starts to lose much more
56:53quickly is you start getting down. Now,
56:55I do know there are people who are
56:57actually fairly lean and they're using
56:59GLP1s
57:00>> because they want to get shredded and
57:02that's problematic or can be.
57:05>> Um but I I think that again the more
57:08important thing is to engage in
57:10resistance training while you're doing
57:12weight loss. And we see what's called
57:13recomp all the time, body recomposition,
57:16where people who are losing weight
57:17actually do gain muscle uh as they're
57:20losing weight if you're doing it
57:21properly.
57:22>> Yeah,
57:22>> that has been something that has been
57:24hotly debated over decades. This this
57:28concept of recompositioning that in the
57:30absence of enough energy is very
57:32difficult to build lean tissue and it is
57:34difficult, right? Like there's no
57:36there's no arguing there. But you can
57:37approach that with precision. We've seen
57:39it hundreds of times. How does someone
57:42who wants to hold on to as much lean
57:44tissue as possible but still drop that
57:47bit of excess body fat and maybe they
57:49are using a a GLP-1 receptor agonist?
57:53What would be your sort of uh advice
57:56approach for those people because I
57:58suspect there's a lot of people in that
58:00camp.
58:01>> Yeah. So one of the things that I think
58:03the literature is starting to show
58:06uh I don't want to say conclusively but
58:08really it's pointing to is having a
58:10higher protein intake. So I mentioned
58:11before roughly 1.6 grams per kilogram is
58:14a good target general target could be a
58:17little higher uh for resistance training
58:19provided you're in a at maintenance or
58:21in a surplus.
58:22>> Yeah. if you're in a deficit. And my
58:25interpretation of the literature and a
58:27study that actually we have in review
58:29that hopefully will be published soon
58:31shows that having a greater protein
58:33intake as much as two or more two grams
58:36per kilogram. In our study was 2.4,
58:38right?
58:39>> Uh preserved muscle mass more than 1.6.
58:42>> And when you say deficit, you mean an
58:44energy a calorie deficit.
58:46>> Energy deficit. Correct. And
58:48>> so for those people who are, you know,
58:50intentionally or not, when you're taking
58:51those those um GLP1s, you're in a
58:54deficit, right? Because you you lose
58:56>> forcing you into a deficit.
58:58>> So for those people, the advice would be
59:00to potentially raise your protein intake
59:03higher.
59:04>> Correct.
59:05>> In combination with just be really
59:07consistent with the resistance training
59:08is going to be protected.
59:10>> Correct. Do you think it's worth,
59:13this could be controversial, do you
59:15think it's worth removing
59:18aerobic exercise for those people which
59:20you know can be catabolic,
59:23right? So, like is there an argument to
59:26be made that if your ambition is retain
59:29if not build lean tissue, still lose
59:31body fat,
59:33but you've got to be very careful with
59:35this energy balance, would could there
59:37be an argument to be made that if you're
59:39doing long distance runs, that's
59:41probably counterproductive for those
59:43goals?
59:44>> I would look at it somewhat differently
59:45and saying that if you do aerobic
59:47exercise, you don't have to go into as
59:49large a deficit.
59:50>> So, your aerobic exercise is going to
59:52help you to create the deficit. So it
59:53all comes down if you're going to have a
59:55really severe deficit. So if you're
59:56doing a ton of aerobic exercise and ter
59:58and also having a very low caloric
1:00:00intake that of course can be put you
1:00:02into a catabolic state. But if you're
1:00:05going to add in aerobic exercise which
1:00:06we've already talked about the
1:00:08importance to health and other factors
1:00:10you can just not you can eat more which
1:00:13I think that's to me is a positive. So
1:00:16it really depends how you look at it. I
1:00:19think the real challenge is for everyone
1:00:21that that are taking them is it's all
1:00:24well and good saying eat more protein or
1:00:27do more resistance training but the very
1:00:29like mechanistically
1:00:31>> you lose the um motivation to do those
1:00:35things. So how do we how do we overcome
1:00:38that? Yeah, motiv exercise psychology
1:00:41and just psychology of food etc comes
1:00:44very complex and it's this norms
1:00:47particularly food because food is around
1:00:49>> all day and drives as the certain
1:00:52driving factors survival factors that
1:00:54are related there. So, you know, I
1:00:57trying to touch on that. It's so
1:00:59individual as to how people's
1:01:01relationships with food and exercise
1:01:03enter into play and and relate to
1:01:05motivation that it's really becomes more
1:01:07of a one-on-one
1:01:08>> Yeah.
1:01:09>> Uh, I guess just, you know, appreciating
1:01:12the value and urgency of doing the thing
1:01:15should be, you know, motivating enough
1:01:17for a lot of people. What I would say
1:01:18just as a general rule having intrinsic
1:01:21motivation you basically having certain
1:01:24goals that are important to you uh
1:01:27really in my opinion at least in my
1:01:29experience
1:01:30>> helps to drive uh retention of
1:01:33motivation over time. Yeah. If there's
1:01:34something that's very important to you,
1:01:36you know, someone who's suffered a
1:01:38cardiac event and is told that yeah, if
1:01:40you exercise it can prevent another
1:01:42cardiac event, that's very potent
1:01:45internal motivation that you don't want
1:01:46to suffer another cardiac event. This is
1:01:49kind of the one of the big challenges
1:01:51certainly for um you know convincing
1:01:55people to do the things that they have
1:01:58the agency to do to protect against
1:02:01decline aging whether that's cognitive
1:02:03or physical.
1:02:06It's upstream of having any symptoms of
1:02:08decline usually. Right? So the best time
1:02:11to be engaging in these things is before
1:02:14you get weak and fragile and immobile.
1:02:16>> No question. And so like that's why I
1:02:18think there is you know this huge rise
1:02:21in popularity of screening and MRIs and
1:02:24CT andagrams which I think have their
1:02:25their place and their value but we need
1:02:28to be taking action so far upstream of
1:02:30that if we really want to live our
1:02:32longest healthiest best life and I think
1:02:34that is one of the challenges is you
1:02:36combine the fact that it doesn't feel
1:02:38all that urgent with the fact that there
1:02:40is so much misinformation. Sometimes for
1:02:44some people it might be like I'll
1:02:46address that another time or or it feels
1:02:49overwhelming or I feel guilty that I'm
1:02:51not doing all of these things. What
1:02:54would be your your sort of key takeaways
1:02:57piece of advice for people who are just
1:02:59feeling a little overwhelmed right now?
1:03:01>> First of all, to your point about myths,
1:03:03uh one of the big myths is that there's
1:03:05a best routine,
1:03:06>> right?
1:03:07>> There's a best routine for a given
1:03:08individual based on their needs,
1:03:10abilities, and goals. Uh, I would say
1:03:13that it's kind of a lot of noise what
1:03:16you're talking about on certainly on
1:03:17social media that a very basic routine,
1:03:20we've touched on this already. It
1:03:22doesn't require an exercise scientist to
1:03:24say get into the gym twice a week, 30
1:03:27minutes, train, do one exercise for each
1:03:29major muscle group, one set where you're
1:03:30pushing, you're challenging your muscles
1:03:32on the last few reps. That's that's all
1:03:35for the vast majority of people. That'll
1:03:38get you really what you need and what
1:03:40you're looking for. Now if you want to
1:03:42then start progressing more then that
1:03:44can start to involve more complex uh
1:03:47exercise recommendations but
1:03:50>> the most pe 20% of people are training
1:03:5280% of people are not training so just
1:03:55getting into the gym is going to do the
1:03:57majority of what uh people need without
1:04:00paying attention to any of this noise.
1:04:02>> What would you say is the most overrated
1:04:04trend in longevity right now?
1:04:08Um, I I think kind of towards what you
1:04:11said, when you say overrated, I'm not
1:04:13sure who does the rating, but in my my
1:04:14humble opinion, it's that there is some
1:04:17magic bullet that there's some best way
1:04:19to go about training.
1:04:21>> Uh, and there's just basic principles to
1:04:23follow. Uh, again, it's
1:04:27don't rather trying not to beat a dead
1:04:29horse, but
1:04:30>> you very simple advice can get you the
1:04:34majority of what you're looking for. Now
1:04:36again, I'm not I'm an ex scientist and
1:04:39as a personal trainer, I was a former
1:04:41bodybuilder. That requires, you know,
1:04:43real manipulation of variables and a
1:04:45much more attention if you want to
1:04:47optimize your own genetic potential for
1:04:50athletes. I've worked with athletes
1:04:52before.
1:04:53>> Uh you're just in a different ballpark.
1:04:56No pun intended.
1:04:57>> Yeah. Uh but for the vast majority of
1:04:59people I think uh what is really
1:05:01overrated is that they some some
1:05:04influencer has the magic bullet because
1:05:06they take their shirt off and look what
1:05:08I did. You know it's and by the way as a
1:05:11as an aside there the biggest mistake
1:05:13that I made when I was an upand
1:05:15cominging bodybuilder when I first
1:05:16started getting into resistance training
1:05:19was following the routines of my
1:05:21favorite bodybuilder. So I'll date
1:05:22myself. Yeah. You know, there it was the
1:05:24time when magazines, we still had
1:05:26magazines delivered in subscriptions
1:05:28through through the mail, through the
1:05:30regular mail. And I'd go to my mailbox.
1:05:32I'd know when my Flex magazine was
1:05:34coming or my Muscle and Fitness. It was
1:05:37in plastic wrapping. I'd wrap open the
1:05:39rip open the plastic and I'd go straight
1:05:41to, okay, who's my favorite bodybuilder?
1:05:43And I do like the leg routine of Lee
1:05:45Haney and the
1:05:47>> uh Rich Gaspar's chest routine. Anyway,
1:05:50these bodybuilders uh from the era and
1:05:52somehow think that well they look at the
1:05:54gains they're getting. I'm going to get
1:05:55those gains. not appreciating that the I
1:05:58was quite naive at that point
1:06:00>> uh my early 20s and not appreciating
1:06:03that uh I don't have the genetics that
1:06:05they do and certainly I didn't have the
1:06:07quote unquote special supplements if you
1:06:09know what I mean that they're using
1:06:11>> and uh I I mean I saw some gains
1:06:13certainly at the beginning because doing
1:06:14almost anything is going to get you
1:06:16gains but I rapidly plateaued and it
1:06:18wasn't until I started to become my own
1:06:20N equals one started to approach it more
1:06:23somewhat scientifically at that point
1:06:24from what I could out of my my own
1:06:26knowledge of science that I started to
1:06:28make better gains.
1:06:29>> Let's touch on the supplement piece and
1:06:32and include in that this wild
1:06:36um wave of peptides and the this the the
1:06:40promotion of peptides at least and this
1:06:42potential re-regulation of them of a
1:06:45bunch of them. Um first part of that
1:06:49this question is what are your like
1:06:52go-to supplements that you think you
1:06:54know we have really robust evidence for
1:06:56what do you take yourself and then
1:06:58secondly I want to hear your highle
1:07:00perspective on these exercise mimetics.
1:07:03>> Yeah. So, uh, to address your question
1:07:05on, um, what supplements work, very few
1:07:08from a muscle build, I I'll touch on
1:07:10muscle building because when you start
1:07:12getting into health, then that's going
1:07:13to come down to what's in your diet and
1:07:15other factors like whe whether you
1:07:17should take vitamins or something,
1:07:19>> right?
1:07:19>> But from a muscle building standpoint,
1:07:21the only one with really true efficacy
1:07:24is creatin.
1:07:26Um, creatin is a is three amino acids
1:07:30that are basically it regenerates your
1:07:33ATP stores. ATP is your high high energy
1:07:36production um molecule in your body that
1:07:39facilitates muscle contraction.
1:07:42Um
1:07:44the literature shows you can make gains.
1:07:46We have a made analysis on this. It's
1:07:49not a steroid first of all does not give
1:07:52you steroid like effects. 30% roughly of
1:07:55the people who take it will be
1:07:57non-responders. It's somewhat dependent
1:08:00on your meat intake because it's very
1:08:02high in in meats and fish.
1:08:05>> Uh so found in very high concentrations
1:08:07and those who are vegan will tend to see
1:08:10better results because they're not
1:08:11getting as much in their diet.
1:08:13>> Um but you you can get modest gains from
1:08:16it and certainly it can be uh if your
1:08:18goal is um muscle building it's I think
1:08:21worth worthwhile. you take it.
1:08:24>> I have. It doesn't really work for me.
1:08:25I'm a pescatarian and I eat a ton of
1:08:28fish
1:08:29>> and it just does not really do much for
1:08:31me. So,
1:08:32>> I'm not sure it does much for me either,
1:08:33but I do take it regardless.
1:08:36>> Um, some people get some GI discomfort
1:08:39from it, but
1:08:40>> So, I it did give me some GI discomfort
1:08:42when I um melted it, if you will, in in
1:08:45warm water and tea. uh didn't have as
1:08:48bad an effect, but it just really to me
1:08:50did not do the quest benefit wasn't uh
1:08:53wasn't good for me, so I stopped.
1:08:55>> A lot of people do get a a good benefit
1:08:56from it, though, I think.
1:08:57>> Yeah. No, it's 70% will see something.
1:09:00And
1:09:00>> what what else do you take if anything?
1:09:02>> Uh well, personally, I take fish oil
1:09:04supplements, um
1:09:06>> which I I think is more from a health
1:09:09perspective.
1:09:10>> I take vitamin D. As you can see, I'm
1:09:12not much of a sun bather. So, um I think
1:09:15that's an important uh supplement to
1:09:17take from for health. Yeah. Yeah.
1:09:20>> But that's it really. Uh no and well I
1:09:23am a coffee drinker so I take I don't
1:09:25take caffeine supplements but I take
1:09:27caffeine and caffeine by the way has
1:09:30efficacy for performance.
1:09:32>> Lots of data right?
1:09:32>> Yeah. Yeah. Quite good data on improving
1:09:36performance.
1:09:38Outside of that, really not much is uh
1:09:41works or at least has been shown to work
1:09:43well through science from a supplement
1:09:45standpoint. Protein uh supplements, they
1:09:48are only beneficial. So, do they work?
1:09:51Well, they work if you're deficient in
1:09:53protein.
1:09:54>> Sure. Yeah.
1:09:54>> But if you're getting I'm a food first
1:09:56person, uh so I don't uh I don't believe
1:09:59in taking supplements and like
1:10:01supplements should be supplementing your
1:10:03diet and things you're not able to get.
1:10:05Uh but to that you know to that point a
1:10:08lot of people do not are not either able
1:10:11to get uh they're eating on the go or
1:10:14whatever they don't get sufficient
1:10:15protein and then it can be beneficial
1:10:17older individuals
1:10:19>> uh they tend to number one have their
1:10:21taste buds tend to be uh diminished so
1:10:24they don't generally they have
1:10:26difficulty eating as much. Yeah.
1:10:29>> And liquid of course taking it in
1:10:31through liquids can make it easier to
1:10:33digest.
1:10:35Um, so it can be beneficial if you're
1:10:37not getting your target protein intake.
1:10:40But other than that, again, I think of
1:10:42supplements, legal supplements,
1:10:45>> as the cherry on the Sunday, if you
1:10:47will.
1:10:48>> The the overarching theme I'm hearing
1:10:50from you, Brad, is keep it simple and
1:10:53consistent.
1:10:53>> Yeah.
1:10:54>> Can we can we talk about I mean, we'd be
1:10:56remiss to not talk about peptides
1:10:59because it's just everywhere right now,
1:11:00and I think you and I share the same
1:11:02opinion here. Um, do you think there
1:11:05will ever be a a true exercise mimemetic
1:11:08or something that can allow us to cheat
1:11:10the need to put the time and effort in?
1:11:13>> Yeah, look, that's somewhat outside of
1:11:15my uh area of expertise. I'm not a uh uh
1:11:20I don't study drug compounds or um but
1:11:25>> I can edit this out if it's too
1:11:26controversial.
1:11:27>> No, no, it's not controversial at all.
1:11:29Uh I just want to speak when I speak. I
1:11:31speak from what I'm I'm an expert on.
1:11:33>> What I would say in my humble opinion, I
1:11:37think we're going to as time goes on,
1:11:39we're going to be able to use genomics
1:11:42and other uh proteomics to individually
1:11:47target people and and do things that may
1:11:50be highly beneficial on an individual
1:11:52basis. I don't think we're anywhere near
1:11:54close to that yet. Yeah. Yeah.
1:11:56>> Uh the way AI is going, I don't if you
1:11:59asked me, you know, a few years ago how
1:12:02long it would take, I would have thought
1:12:03it was going to take quite a lot longer.
1:12:05I think the way things are going AI
1:12:07wise, it'll allow us to develop some of
1:12:09these things more quickly. But um I I
1:12:12don't think it'll ever or I shouldn't
1:12:14say I never say never so I shouldn't say
1:12:17never but I would be skeptical that it
1:12:19can ever fully replace exercise just
1:12:22because when you're exercising there's
1:12:23multiple systems that are involved.
1:12:25Basically when you're talking about
1:12:26these types of drugs
1:12:28>> uh they're targeting specific pathways
1:12:31>> uh that don't work function the way that
1:12:34exercise does and targeting blood flow.
1:12:36There's just so many factors that are
1:12:38involved when you're exercising. So, I
1:12:40find it difficult to imagine that it
1:12:42will ever replace it. But could it be an
1:12:44adjunct? Uh, could it help? I don't
1:12:46certainly don't doubt it. I just don't
1:12:48think at this point we have certainly um
1:12:52the safety knowledge on any of these
1:12:54things to recommend them. And even the
1:12:56efficacy the efficacy standpoint of what
1:12:59I've seen, they're just not well
1:13:01studied. You talk about peptides,
1:13:04>> very little research on these certainly
1:13:06that's been controlled. that's not
1:13:08funded by a supplement company that's uh
1:13:11trying to promote these things. You got
1:13:13to look at who's funding the studies as
1:13:16well. So, uh I personally everyone has
1:13:20to make their own decisions. I never
1:13:21judge people in terms if they're going
1:13:23to do something that will affect them
1:13:24and no one else and that's in my humble
1:13:27opinion that's their decision. But
1:13:29personally, I would not go near a
1:13:31peptide at this point because I just
1:13:33don't I can't speak to what it might do
1:13:36in five 10 years from now to you.
1:13:39>> Brad, can we talk about what's coming
1:13:41next because we're seeing some really
1:13:45exciting things and and all of the
1:13:46conversations that we are privileged to
1:13:49have with our scientists. There's loads
1:13:51of cool things happening um within your
1:13:53specific field. What are you most
1:13:56excited about that's on the horizon when
1:13:58it comes to the research?
1:14:00>> Yeah, I think what's really needed is
1:14:03greater a greater understanding of the
1:14:05mechanisms that underly muscle
1:14:08development, muscle growth.
1:14:09>> So, um we've come a long way. Uh my
1:14:12master's capstone project was called the
1:14:16mechan was on the mechanisms of
1:14:17hypertrophy and their application of
1:14:19resistance training. That paper catchy
1:14:22>> that paper got published in journal
1:14:24strength and conditioning research 2010
1:14:26and is now the number one most viewed of
1:14:29all time in the journal. Uh and I look
1:14:33back on it and this was 16 years ago 17
1:14:36years ago now. Um,
1:14:39so much has changed. Like people still
1:14:41cite that paper and I say that's very
1:14:44dated at this point just because we've
1:14:46but with that said we still have so far
1:14:49as much as we as far as we've come we're
1:14:51still kind of scratching the surface in
1:14:53my opinion. We have so much more to
1:14:55learn and develop an understanding of
1:14:58>> you know what the underlying um
1:15:00mechanism mechanistic aspects are. And
1:15:02when we really have a handle on that,
1:15:04that can help to to fuel uh application.
1:15:08>> So when you understand what's behind
1:15:11muscle growth, you can then start to
1:15:12develop programs that target it better.
1:15:15>> Yeah.
1:15:16>> And I think that it's just very
1:15:18difficult. So one of the real challenges
1:15:19is trying to tease out other mechanistic
1:15:22factors, trying to isolate one
1:15:24mechanism. when you're manipulating one
1:15:27variable to try to cause a mechanism,
1:15:28you end up uh causing other factors,
1:15:31mechanistic factors to potentially be
1:15:33manipulated.
1:15:35>> And this becomes problematic. And much
1:15:36of the research still is on rodents, I
1:15:39mean, in animal models because you're
1:15:41just not going to be able to do things
1:15:42to humans that you can with animals to
1:15:45try to tease out these factors. Um, so
1:15:48anyway, but bottom line is I think that
1:15:50this will over the next 5 10 years
1:15:52really continue to progress and we'll
1:15:54have a much better understanding. If you
1:15:56have me here five or 10 years from now,
1:15:58hopefully we can chat on that.
1:16:00>> We will for sure. I mean, one thing that
1:16:02you touched on earlier which I think is
1:16:04the most exciting I always say this um
1:16:06and that is that we are we are able to
1:16:08now get much more personalized with the
1:16:10data, right? And it and it starts off
1:16:12expensive like everything does in
1:16:14science, but you know, we're we're able
1:16:16to contextualize these um different uh
1:16:20variables, these different verticals
1:16:21within our biology now. And you know,
1:16:23you mentioned genomics and the
1:16:25multiomics in general. I think there's
1:16:27some really cool um trends that we'll
1:16:30start um we'll be able to start
1:16:32observing on a big scale, but then on an
1:16:35individual level, and that's pretty
1:16:37exciting.
1:16:37>> Yeah. So one of the big issue when I say
1:16:39issues one of the realities of of
1:16:42research is that they look at the means
1:16:45the averages. So basically when we do a
1:16:47study we don't look at it it's not
1:16:50targeted to an individual we look at
1:16:51what what did the group see and what is
1:16:53the variability within that group and we
1:16:55then try to generalize that to the
1:16:57population. That gives you a guideline
1:16:59as to where to start but that doesn't
1:17:01tell you what to do. Research is not
1:17:02telling you what to do. If we can really
1:17:05and I think you're right that we're
1:17:06going to get into the genomics
1:17:09proteomics to a greater extent that can
1:17:11help to guide individualization of the
1:17:13guidelines that were given and the more
1:17:15we can do that combining generalized
1:17:18research with individualized research
1:17:20that's where we can really see big make
1:17:23huge differences in individuals.
1:17:25>> What what would can you give me some
1:17:27examples of things that you used to
1:17:31believe to be true that you no longer
1:17:32do? Right. because I, you know, I've
1:17:34been fortunate enough to be doing this a
1:17:36long time now. You know, um into my
1:17:39third decade of of applying these these
1:17:41principles with with clients, members,
1:17:43patients, and I used to think I knew
1:17:46everything about everything. And the the
1:17:48more I've been doing this, the more I
1:17:51realize I know very little about
1:17:52anything. And I think the pendulum
1:17:54swings with the research specifically
1:17:55for for exercise physiology, things that
1:17:58we used to believe to be true, we no
1:17:59longer apply with our members, patients.
1:18:02Yes.
1:18:02>> Are there some good examples of that?
1:18:04>> So many.
1:18:06>> I'll start with the
1:18:08>> I don't want to say number one, but
1:18:09certainly one of the biggest revelations
1:18:12is that uh you don't necessarily need to
1:18:14train to allout muscle failure. So I I
1:18:17came again from a bodybuilding mindset.
1:18:19And the pros were all talking about, you
1:18:22know, not only doing sets to failure,
1:18:24but using forced reps and uh you know,
1:18:27where you actually had a spotter lifting
1:18:29or drops. So, I mean, I'd go to the gym,
1:18:32it was go all out or go home. If I
1:18:34wasn't if the vein in the side of my
1:18:37forehead wasn't bulging like a serpent
1:18:40>> uh on every set by the time I finished a
1:18:42set, I was not training hard enough. And
1:18:44to me, it didn't uh didn't pay to go to
1:18:47the gym almost. And the research that
1:18:49we've had over time has actually shown
1:18:52that you can be, as I mentioned earlier,
1:18:53a couple reps uh short of failure and
1:18:56see very comparable results in terms of
1:18:59your muscle develment even more for
1:19:00strength. You can be even a little
1:19:01further for uh further away from
1:19:04failure. So you don't necessarily need
1:19:05to train to allout failure. Um, which is
1:19:08not only cool just for I think for
1:19:11everyone, but for people who certainly
1:19:14think that discomfort is a a reason not
1:19:16to train, it gives greater it helps with
1:19:19adherence that you don't need to really
1:19:22feel the pain of
1:19:23>> Yeah. scratching out that last rep.
1:19:26>> Brad, I know. It's a pleasure and a
1:19:28privilege as always. Well,
1:19:29>> that's awesome. It's my pleasure, Chris.

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