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THB the West is Right to be Suspicious of Islam - Full Debate — Transcript

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0:04I'm pleased to open this evening's
0:05debate and I'm pleased to call on Mr.
0:08Oliver Jones Lions to open the debate
0:10for the proposition. Mr. Jones Lines.
0:13[applause]
0:18>> Thank you, Mr. Chair. It be remiss of me
0:21not to begin by noting what an honor it
0:23is to be speaking today in what will
0:26ultimately prove to one of those
0:28historic debates that shows why this
0:31place matters.
0:33Despite external pressure, internal
0:35pressure, political minations, and every
0:38type of motion under the sun,
0:41this house voted clearly and decisively
0:46two weeks in a row to have this debate
0:50and live up to this society's name
0:53of being the last bastion of free
0:55speech.
0:57We are here tonight because that
1:00principle matters and this motion
1:02matters.
1:03I rise to propose the motion that this
1:06house believes the West is right to be
1:08suspicious of Islam.
1:11The rise of Islam in the West has been
1:14the most notable and significant
1:16demographic change in the West over the
1:19course of the last few decades.
1:21Its effects, both positive and negative,
1:24are well known.
1:26But if we are fully honest with
1:27ourselves, it is certainly not a secret
1:30that the West is in fact suspicious of
1:33Islam.
1:35Tonight, the proposition will not cower
1:37away from the issue being debated here.
1:40It is not whether the enlightened West
1:42should be suspicious of every religion.
1:45It's about Islam.
1:47The burden for side proposition will be
1:49to prove the good reason exists to find
1:52uniquely justifiable reasons
1:57uh to be suspicious in the religion of
1:59Islam.
2:01It is my belief those good reasons
2:03exist. It's my hope that this debate
2:06won't descend into being a series of
2:09increasingly technical theological
2:11gotchas,
2:13nor the slinging around of anecdotes.
2:17This debate, if it is to be honest, will
2:20examine how Muslims actually live their
2:22lives in accordance with their beliefs
2:25and the teachings of their faith and its
2:27leaders.
2:29Members of the House, I will set out
2:31during my speech the incompatibility of
2:33Islam with the values of religious
2:35tolerance and pluralism that underpin
2:37our society. I will then set out how
2:41Islam is more widely irreconcilable
2:45with the fundamental principles of
2:47Western liberal democratic society. And
2:50I will end with a call to action. This
2:53discussion should not be as fraugh or as
2:56well frankly you can hear it as
2:58protested as it has been and
3:01fundamentally the west must move back to
3:04its fundamentally liberal roots and
3:07accept that no culture no religion no
3:10belief may not be subject to the
3:13scrutiny of reason and virtue
3:15but before that Mr. Chair, it is my
3:18obligation to introduce speakers on site
3:20opposition to this honorable house. In
3:23the union, we have a tradition uh of
3:25introducing uh the opposition speakers
3:27via roast. Given however is the last
3:29week of term and I'm feeling in a very
3:32um unlike the protesters tonight,
3:34constructive mood, I thought I'd say
3:36some thank yous. Firstly, you will hear
3:39from Aisha Khan Aziz, the union's chief
3:42negotiations officer. I'd like to thank
3:44Aisha for all her work on this debate.
3:47She seems to have an extensive amount of
3:49contact in the global Muslim community
3:51and some very entertaining anecdotes
3:54about every niche Muslim celebrity.
3:57However, the way Aisha could be more
4:00helpful to any future president she may
4:02serve is perhaps by improving her
4:04matchmaking skills by finding them a and
4:08I must emphasize quote snuggle buddy who
4:11won't dedicate eight weeks to
4:14jettisoning their partner's biggest
4:16debate.
4:18Next up will be Michael Daward. Michael
4:20is a podcaster from Luton. I'd like to
4:22thank Mr. Dard um for being willing to
4:25speak in this debate despite all the
4:26difficulties and pressures many speakers
4:29on this side have face.
4:31I also hear though despite both
4:34supporting Luton Tang that Mr. Daward
4:37may not exactly share many other views
4:40with his fellow hatter on side
4:41proposition.
4:44Then you will hear from Sir Ree Smog uh
4:48Sir Jacob I was corrected outside. I'd
4:51like to thank Sir Jacob for being a
4:53tireless defender of both this debate
4:56and freedom of speech.
4:58My biggest concern having heard Sir Sir
5:02Sir Jacob in my first debate as a
5:04fresher
5:06was that he was debating on side
5:08opposition and that he'd decide to go
5:11woke. But then I realized there is
5:14nothing woke about defending the right
5:16of all peoples to practice
5:18ultra-conservative values that should
5:20have been left in the 19th century.
5:23Something Sir Jacob is famously familiar
5:26with. Next up would be Abdullah and
5:29Alandalooi.
5:30Much like many of the faces on side
5:32proposition, Mr. Lucy has been a vocal
5:35defender of the president's decision to
5:37have this debate
5:39and I want to be absolutely clear that
5:41having the balls to defend your faith
5:43and put up to scrutiny is something I
5:46can literally only have that most
5:48respectful.
5:50However, I was a bit confused when I
5:52heard Mr. And Lucy is so popular in the
5:54Muslim community for being its answer to
5:57and I hate to say I'm quoting Muslim
5:59committee members here. Who is the
6:01Muslim Tommy Robinson?
6:03And finally, you will hear from our
6:05president awar
6:08this term has been what we have began
6:10colloally referring to as a glazing.
6:14But I'll do it again one last time.
6:16Always has faced so much grief for
6:19having this important discussion,
6:20including most especially from her own
6:22community. The bravery and courage she
6:25has exhibited to stay steadfast in the
6:28face of all, from every hourly press
6:30request to every daily smear campaign to
6:32every weekly motion challenging her
6:34authority and her decisions exemplifies
6:38exactly what this institution is about.
6:42[applause]
6:49>> [applause]
6:51>> I hate to say she's not getting off that
6:54easy. If nothing else, if her desired
6:57career as a green member of Parliament
7:00fails, I'm sure after her term she'll
7:02enjoy a safe back stop in Reform UK.
7:06Mr. Chair, Madame President, these are
7:08your guests and they are most welcome.
7:11[applause]
7:18Debates about exclusivism are familiar
7:20to any student of philosophy. Islam, as
7:23many religions do, has a doctrine that
7:26is the final re revelation of truth. And
7:30that all of a revelation is either not
7:33divine, not final, or simply wrong.
7:37This isn't unusual.
7:39But Islam presents a unique challenge to
7:42the secular liberal order.
7:44While many belief systems engage in
7:47internal moral dialogue, Islam
7:49encompasses an overarching political and
7:53legal framework referred to as Sharia
7:55that makes explicit actionable demands
7:58on the governance of the state.
8:01This system includes a system of
8:03taxation called, and I'm aware I'm going
8:05to butch this, but Jazia, whereby
8:08non-Muslims are in Muslim lands as
8:10envisaged by the Quran, required to pay
8:13a tax for the extension of freedom of
8:16belief and the right to autonomy of
8:18life.
8:21We talk a lot about how we should be
8:22tolerant, how we should be accepting of
8:24beliefs, and I'm sure that different
8:26presentations of Islamic law will be
8:28presented when we examine concepts like
8:31the Jaza or specific Jewish prudence
8:33regarding apostasy.
8:35We need not quote trade quotes from
8:38scripture.
8:40We can debate the more essential tension
8:42between a political doctrine that
8:45legally categorizes citizens by their
8:48faith status
8:50and a western liberal system that
8:52mandates equality under law regardless
8:55of belief.
8:57Take Jazia. is not fundamentally a
9:01liberal. And is it not fundamentally
9:03liberal and unwestern to believe in
9:06discriminary taxes against those of
9:08different faiths that are requirement
9:11to be guaranteed the most basic of what
9:13we in the west would call human rights
9:16such as the right to even like feel
9:18free. Um it's not discriminatory tax uh
9:22taxes. It's that in Islamic state there
9:24there's only one level of citizenship.
9:27Non-Muslims are the citizens. Muslims
9:29are the subject of the state. We have
9:30obl ob obligations to the state that
9:32non-Muslims are not subject to. And if
9:34you go to Pakistan for example, they
9:36have some aspects of Islamic law there.
9:37In the constitution, Muslims are not
9:39allowed to drink alcohol. But Pakistani
9:42Christians are actually allowed to drink
9:44alcohol and follow their practices. So
9:46if anything, an Islamic state is more
9:48oppressive to Muslims and is to
9:50non-Muslims.
9:52>> So what you're saying is fundamentally
9:54there is a discrimination there between
9:56Muslim and non-Muslims.
9:59not insist.
10:00>> This is but one example. Scholars may
10:03disagree on the interpretation of
10:05various verses of the Quran andifs from
10:09again a quote kill the polytheists
10:12wherever you find them in surah 95 to
10:15quote whoever changes religion put them
10:18to death in the words of the prophet
10:20Muhammad in the hadiths. But with these
10:23verses, even if not literal
10:25instructions, go on.
10:27>> In the surah that you mentioned, sword
10:28of the verse, um the verse of the sword,
10:30sorry. Can you recite the verse that
10:31comes before it and then also the verse
10:33that comes after it? And are you willing
10:34to accept that that verse was given in a
10:36very specific time regarding a very
10:37specific tribe that burnt or prevented
10:40the treaty that they had signed with
10:41Muslims that is not a universal command
10:43upon all Muslims?
10:45>> I think I'm about to get that.
10:50But only these verses, even if not
10:53literal instructions,
10:57even if not divine law, tell you
11:00something about the fundamental
11:02difference between Islam and other
11:04faiths. Islam is a totalizing religion.
11:08Non-believers are expected convert or
11:11render inferior, not in the divine realm
11:14above, but here on earth.
11:16>> What information? polytheists,
11:18apostates, and all of the other
11:21deserving exclusion or worse. This
11:24brings me quite nicely to my second
11:26point. Ultimately, I could list
11:29countless examples of how Muslim
11:31majority countries treat non-believers.
11:34How it is potentially lethal in
11:36countries like Syria to be a Jew or
11:38religious minority, how Iran hangs
11:40homosexuals, how countries like Qar and
11:43Saudi Arabia subjugate women through
11:45passport controls. moderated by male
11:48guardianship schemes,
11:50but be the same old tired criticism. I
11:54want us to think about this differently.
11:55And honestly,
11:57we can put this down to, as I'm sure
12:00side proposition will, local anomalies
12:02or distorted interpretations. Yet,
12:05nearly 80% of the world's Muslim
12:07population live in states where these
12:10frameworks are not just abstract theory,
12:12but the law of the land. We must grapple
12:15with this reality.
12:18We can observe the outcome of this
12:20doctrine where is empowered to govern
12:22through the very same people who profess
12:25its teachings.
12:27If that practical truth
12:30is a stand of governance in the vast
12:33majority of the Muslim world, why should
12:36we as a liberal society treat the
12:38expansion of that system as if the
12:41outcome would be any different?
12:44Most concerningly, political Islam, once
12:47dismissed as being crazy and as fringe
12:50as the conspiracy of the Epstein files,
12:53is now being normalized as a policy end
12:56by an insurgent Green Party. The idea of
13:00Islam as a political ideology certainly
13:02isn't new, but the open pursuit of it by
13:06parliamentary hopefuls moving from the
13:08streets to the whole of government
13:10should concern anyone who values our
13:12secular democracy.
13:15When the state goal of a movement is to
13:18institutionalize its legal framework to
13:20replace existing statutes with an
13:23alternative code, we are no longer
13:26discussing a religion but a political
13:28competitor.
13:29Finally, I wouldn't leave you a point.
13:32It is my choice as it is your choice to
13:35be suspicious of Islam or not. But let's
13:38not act like we really treat it that
13:40way.
13:42The West has got into this unfortunate
13:44habit of thinking tolerance means
13:47protection.
13:48Avoidance of scrutiny, an avoidance of
13:51uncomfortable conversations.
13:54To be clear, faith is a choice.
13:57I have faith. I'm certainly not an
13:58atheist, but I expect and nor should
14:01anyone expect any accommodation nor safe
14:05space.
14:07The freedom for faith incurs the
14:09liability of criticism.
14:12If truly we shouldn't be suspicious of
14:14Islam, then why the visceral backlash
14:17that you can hear right now to this
14:18debate?
14:20Why do more Muslims not see this debate
14:23how our president does? Look at the five
14:26pillars pool as an example of how the
14:27Muslim world sees this very important
14:30debate. What about how honorable
14:32gentleman sitting right there sees it as
14:35an opportunity to defend his religion?
14:37The UK
14:39>> information
14:39>> feel free.
14:40>> The initial five pillars poll pointed
14:4266% of Muslims were supportive of this
14:44debate going forth
14:45>> and then they found out the speakers and
14:47they changed it. The UK
14:49>> they knew about Tommy.
14:50>> They knew about Tommy and that was one
14:52side.
14:54The UK regards quote religion or belief
14:57as a protective characteristic
14:59but no belief system should be protected
15:01from inquiry. You should have the
15:03freedom to practice. I should have the
15:05freedom to criticize to scrutinize or in
15:07fact condemn.
15:10Religions are systems of propositions
15:12political, philosophical, personal and
15:14ultimately onlogical.
15:16One can certainly be suspicious of Islam
15:19and I hate to say you are allowed.
15:22It's not bigotry. is not far right. How
15:25can a system of belief that demands the
15:27discrimination of apostates be
15:29compatible with a secular order based on
15:31equality and rights? How can a religious
15:34order that imposes subjugation as
15:36morality be compatible with a liberal
15:39democratic order?
15:41Members of the house, if you like me
15:44can't answer those questions,
15:46then vote for this motion.
15:49>> Go on. On every measure of British
15:51values told you last year, democracy,
15:53equality before the law, loyalty to this
15:54country, opposition to bigotry, British
15:56Muslims scored higher than the British
15:58average. Will the speaker concede that
16:00the community he's asking us to be
16:01suspicious of is holding the line on the
16:03values he claims to defend?
16:06I would direct
16:09the president to other polls, including
16:13the polls about whether October 7th
16:16actually happened, the polls about
16:20whether 911 was staged by the American
16:23government, the polls about
16:27the basics of British values, democracy,
16:31freedom,
16:34and I'll leave it there cuz I had
16:36already finished my speech.
16:38[applause]
16:43[applause]
16:46>> I thank the honorable gentleman for
16:47opening the debate for the proposition
16:49and I call upon Aisha Khan Aziz to open
16:52the debate for the opposition.
16:55[applause]
17:02Mr. Chair, thank you for the opportunity
17:04to speak tonight. I am a history
17:07student. I love digging up the past,
17:09though not as much as some people who
17:11have studied every terrorist attack
17:12since 9/11 and yet somehow missed the 12
17:15centuries of Islamic history that came
17:16before. But since we are doing history,
17:19let me give you Kato the Elder. Since
17:21the West likes rooting itself in its
17:22Greco Roman traditions, Kato ended every
17:25speech in the Roman Senate on grain
17:27prices or foreign policy with the same
17:29line. Cthgo dendera est carthage must be
17:34destroyed. He never argued it or proved
17:36it. He just repeated it incessantly and
17:39relentlessly until the Senate felt it in
17:41their bones. Until Carthage felt
17:44inevitable. Eventually, they went and
17:46burned it to the ground and salted the
17:47earth so nothing would grow again. We do
17:50not have to go back 2,000 years to see
17:52how this ends. We can look at simply
17:54last week in Belfast. A stabbing on a
17:57street left a man fighting for his life
17:59at the hands of a Sudanese refugee here
18:01on a legal residence permit. Within 48
18:04hours, mobs were going from door to door
18:06looking for them. 27 people were made
18:09homeless overnight. A Ukrainian family
18:12burned out. Muslim parents who were
18:14asking their white neighbors to keep
18:16their children safe while they stayed in
18:18their houses and waited for the inferno
18:20to come. A two-month-old baby was pulled
18:23from a burning house by firefighters.
18:25Northern Ireland's justice minister said
18:27it plainly. Bad faith actors who could
18:29not have found Belfast on a map a week
18:31earlier were deliberately stoking people
18:33onto the streets. And that is the
18:35absolute definition of racism. But
18:38before I make that case in full, let me
18:40acknowledge the distinguished bench in
18:42front of me tonight. Oliver JL, I begin
18:45with you. You dropped out of your GDL
18:48course to spend more time unemployed at
18:51the Oxford Union.
18:53And given how many times a Muslim
18:55candidate has stood between you and the
18:57position you actually wanted here in the
18:59union, perhaps tonight's motion.
19:05[applause]
19:11[applause]
19:12Perhaps tonight's motion is less about
19:14the West relationship with Islam and
19:16more about yours. Steven Yakley Lenin,
19:20known to his hooligans as Tommy
19:22Robinson. Stephen, there is a crowd
19:25outside rioting against you tonight and
19:27without the protection and generosity of
19:29a Muslim Palestinian president and a
19:31mostly South Asian executive committee,
19:35um, you would be quite literally cooked.
19:40[applause]
19:44Then Lawrence Fox, actor, politician.
19:46However, I think his most memorable role
19:48might be the ex-husband of Doctor Who's
19:50Rose Tyler, founder of the Reclaim
19:53Party, which at the last general
19:55election reclaimed approximately 0.02%
19:58of the British vote. Also a former GB
20:01news presenter, former because GB News
20:03let him go, which if you know anything
20:05about GB News, says something quite
20:07specific about the threshold.
20:10Finally, Jonathan Sacredi, a core memory
20:13of my Miklmus 2024 Oxford Union
20:16experience.
20:18However, you wrote an article in the
20:20spectator merely two days ago. There you
20:23sharing a panel with Steven Yakley
20:25Lennon is not a reflection on you and
20:27that guilt by association is beneath
20:29serious argument only to spend the rest
20:31of the piece asking Muslims to wear the
20:33guilt of a minority who share nothing
20:35with them but a faith. You cannot demand
20:36that logic for yourself, Jonathan, and
20:38deny it to everyone else in the room.
20:40>> Information,
20:42>> my argument was with the ideology of
20:44Islam, not with individual Muslims.
20:46>> I read the article and it was a bit
20:49self-apologetic about speaking here
20:51tonight. Mr.
20:53[applause]
20:57Chair, these are Madame Speaker's guests
21:00and in the spirit of free speech, they
21:02are most welcome.
21:04[applause]
21:12The proposition's argument is seductive.
21:14It says, "Look at the threat. Look at
21:16the attacks. Suspicion is just and
21:18prudence. I do not need to deny that
21:20Islamist terrorism or an Islamist threat
21:22is real. I need to show you that
21:23collective suspicion of Islam is
21:24irrational, counterproductive, and
21:26morally catastrophic. So, let us be
21:28inductive. Let us look at what that
21:30suspicion actually produces. After 9/11,
21:32the West treated Islam as a
21:34civilizational enemy and called that sus
21:36suspicion prudence. The result was not
21:38safety. It was Abu Hur. It was Gautamino
21:40Bay. Men who were held for decades
21:42without charge. Men like Ahmed Rabani, a
21:44taxi driver from Karachi, sold to the
21:47Americans for $5,000 because they
21:48thought he was someone else. 20 years in
21:51a cage, and he never once was charged.
21:53His son Jawad grew up on a 15-minute
21:55phone call a year. A father who would
21:57only say he is in jail. At 13, Javard
22:00went on the dark web to watch his
22:02father's torture videos. For years, he
22:04believed his father must have deserved
22:06it because, in his words, you don't
22:08torture anyone for no reason. He did not
22:10meet his father until 2023. A grown man
22:13meeting a stranger at an airport because
22:15suspicion took his father before he was
22:17even born. That is what suspicion
22:19produces. Not security, but the very
22:22monster it claims to defend against. And
22:24a childhood stolen from a boy who
22:25committed no crime either. When it when
22:28it is not states but ordinary people who
22:30act on it, the ledger is just as
22:31damning. Two genocides of Muslims in 30
22:34years, Bosnia in 1995, Myanmar in 2017,
22:37a pogram in Delhi in 2020, all fed by
22:40the same elemental claim that the
22:41proposition is making tonight that
22:43Muslims are foreign, violent, a threat
22:45by nature rather than by individual
22:47acts. The motion at its core is Samuel
22:50Hunt Huntington's argument, which is the
22:52clash of civilizations. Islam and the
22:54West placed as mortal enemies in a
22:56struggle that only one side can win.
22:58Published in 1993, it has shaped Western
23:01policy for 30 years. So let us test it
23:04against the evidence. The evidence, they
23:06say, is ISIS, Palmira, the Bameya
23:08Buddhas. Look, here is the clash. Here
23:11is why suspicion is rational. All they
23:14do is destroy. So let me take them to
23:16Jerusalem. In the Al Axa complex, which
23:18is the third holiest site in Islam,
23:20there are Gothic rose windows. Crusader
23:22stonework preserved by Muslim custodians
23:24for eight centuries. Salahudin Aubi took
23:27Jerusalem in 1187 and left the Christian
23:29stonework stonework standing. That is
23:31not a clash of civilizations.
23:36>> I guess
23:37>> I'm talking about Jerusalem. the evident
23:44and denied the Bamea and Bamea. When the
23:47Taliban first proposed destroying the
23:49Buddhists, scholars from Alazhar
23:50University in Cairo flew to Gandha to
23:52argue against it on theological grounds.
23:54Hzar and Muslims took up arms to protect
23:56them. That tradition tried harder to
23:58save those statues than the West ever
24:00did. Which brings me to Palmira. The man
24:02who died trying to save it was an
24:0481-year-old Muslim man tortured for a
24:06month and beheaded for refusing to talk.
24:09So, who is Islamist violence actually
24:11killing? Not the West. It's Muslims. 91%
24:14of everyone killed by Islamist terrorism
24:16is Muslim. The Taliban has killed 69,000
24:19people. ISIS 58,000. Boohh Haram 25,000
24:23people. All of them nearly Muslim.
24:25Killed by men who call themselves the
24:27only true Muslims on Earth. For 20
24:29years, the West has pointed at the body
24:31count and blamed the corpses for
24:33suspicion. Huntington told governments
24:35that they were not engaged. They were in
24:37a civilizational war. They believed him,
24:39and in fighting that war, they generated
24:40precisely the enemy his thesis required.
24:43>> Yes.
24:44>> Um, are you suggesting that Islamic
24:47death uh meated out to other Muslims
24:50should not make people in the West
24:52suspicious because they care about Islam
24:54killing its own people?
24:57I think primarily the west's
25:00um argument towards criticisms of Muslim
25:03is to do with themselves as opposed to
25:06how they treat other Muslims. I don't
25:07think that the footing in which we treat
25:10other Muslims versus Westerners is
25:11equal. That is the paradox of the modern
25:14culture war actually offended by
25:15everything shamed by nothing. They take
25:17issue with the women on a headscarf on a
25:19bus and feel no shame about the wars we
25:21exported or the terrorist regimes we
25:22bankrolled. The sensibility that finds
25:24Islam offensive cannot locate its own
25:26reflection in history. And trust me, the
25:28west has plenty of history to locate.
25:30The Inquisition, colonialism, slavery,
25:32the interament of Japanese Americans,
25:33McCarthyism, every generation has had
25:36its Carthage, a group cast as a
25:38civilizational threat. Every generation
25:40told itself it was being reasonable and
25:42every generation was wrong. So let us be
25:44clear about Western values. The west
25:46does not have a settled unified set of
25:47values of which against which Islam can
25:50be measured and found wanting. It is a
25:52contested unresolved project and so is
25:54Islam and so is every intellectual
25:57tradition. The question is not whether
25:58one perfect civilization can judge
26:00another and find it deficient. Denied,
26:04but whether two imperfect contested
26:06traditions can coexist, and that is not
26:08answered by one of them claiming the
26:09right to treat the other as inherently
26:10suspect. I agree that Western values are
26:13worth defending so completely that I
26:15will show you what they look like when I
26:16actually live them. Western critical
26:18thinking means I can read a scholar's
26:19commentary on a Quranic verse and decide
26:21that he might be right or wrong. It
26:23means I can hold up my faith to scrutiny
26:25without it shattering because a faith
26:27that cannot survive a question probably
26:29deserves to be questioned. Am I right?
26:31But the proposition's argument is not
26:32critical thinking should be universal.
26:34It is that the West has a right to be
26:36suspicious of me before I even open my
26:39mouth, before I demonstrate anything at
26:40all suspicious of who I am and also what
26:43I eat. Ironically, MI5's own researchers
26:46have said them this has have said this
26:47themselves. When communities feel
26:49preconvicted, they disengage from the
26:51institutions that could intercept real
26:53threats. Legitimized I'm trying to get
26:55through my speech. Legitimized suspicion
26:58does not make us safer. It makes the
26:59people we need on side feel like
27:01enemies.
27:03One more thing about Western values. The
27:05proposition speaks of a Judeo-Christian
27:07tradition under threat from Islam. That
27:09phrase was coined in the 1930s in
27:11America to fight fascism, built against
27:14exclusion. Then the Cold War came and it
27:16was repurposed as a banner against
27:18Godless communism because nothing says
27:19rugged Western freedom quite like
27:21reminding the Soviets you go to church.
27:24Now it has changed target again. No
27:26longer Jewish people are written out of
27:27the West, but the Muslim person. It is
27:29the same machinery, the same sentence
27:31structure, the same act of drawing a
27:33line around who counts as one of us,
27:35just pointed at different people.
27:37Islamophobia has become one of the last
27:39socially acceptable forms of bigotry in
27:42British public life and the proposition
27:44wants to give that bigotry a mandate. My
27:46grandfather came to this country in the
27:481950s. He did not arrive suspicious. He
27:51arrived with the particular stubborn
27:52hope of someone who believed Britain
27:53meant what it had said. He spent his
27:55life proving he belonged here brick by
27:58brick, year by year. He even gave up his
28:01name Abdul Aziz for one that would open
28:03more doors. We gave this country our
28:06blood to enrich it. That proposition is
28:09asking you to tell him that was never
28:10going to be enough. Staging suspicion of
28:12Islam is not intellectual rigor. It is
28:15the same Islamophobia that keeps people
28:16like Steven Yaxi Lenin and Lawrence Fox
28:19trafficking. And it is a disgrace. I'm
28:22about to finish my speech. It is a
28:24disgrace that Muslims should have to
28:25keep performing their humanity to earn
28:27belief. I say that is not Western
28:29values. That is Western failure. That is
28:31a Western disgrace. and this house is
28:33better than that. [applause]
28:35I urge you all to vote against the
28:37motion tonight. Thank you.
28:43[applause] I thank the honorable lady
28:45for opening the case for the opposition
28:48and I now call upon Mr. Tommy Robinson
28:50to advance the case for the proposition.
28:55>> [applause]
28:57>> First of all, I'd like to say I'd much
29:00rather be watching the England game than
29:01in here tonight.
29:04I've simply come here because of the
29:06commitment to free speech that I had for
29:08this event. I know you have totally
29:09opposite views to me, but I know that
29:11people may step into the field of
29:13inviting me somewhere without realizing
29:14what it's going to face. So, I am fully
29:16aware of the backlash you would have
29:17faced, but I congratulate you on your
29:18defense of free speech, and that's the
29:19reason why I've come tonight.
29:23>> [applause]
29:25>> I'd also like to congratulate Aisha on
29:28her first great speech. And I'm sorry
29:30that your family aren't here today to
29:31have watched that. But it wasn't my
29:33supporters that have attacked them
29:35outside. It's not my supporters who are
29:37causing a rabble or smashing the place
29:38up and attacking police officers. It's
29:40not supporters on our side of the debate
29:42either. It's supporters on your side of
29:43the debate who are out there causing
29:44mayhem. Yeah. So before talking about
29:47Islam, I'd love to believe what Jacob
29:50and the others on this panel believe
29:52that we shouldn't be suspicious of
29:53Islam. Jacob, there's 480 Muslims who
29:56live in your constituency. 0.5%. You
29:59probably can't find a Muslim. There's
30:00three mosques, the main one being in
30:02Bath University. I'm from Luton Town. We
30:04have 80,000 Muslims, 45 mosques, 33% of
30:07the population. So I asked myself, why
30:09would a non-Muslim be telling any of us
30:11that we should shouldn't be suspicious
30:12of Islam? Well, of course, Jacob does
30:14not have to live with the consequences
30:16of his own disastrous policy
30:20and their policies, beliefs only the
30:21elite can afford to hold. So to Islam,
30:25first, should we, the West, be
30:27suspicious of it. I want to be clear
30:30what Islam is, because it's not what any
30:32of you say it is. It's not what I say it
30:34is. It's not what we wish it to be, and
30:36it's not what your friendly local imam
30:38or your taxi driver or Mr. Anducia
30:40decides it is. Islam is defined in the
30:43Quran. Muslims that believe the Quran to
30:46be the word of Allah written in an
30:48eternal book in heaven and revealed to
30:50Muhammad in the seventh century. And
30:52it's the Sunna, the excellent pattern of
30:54behavior or exalted standard of moral
30:57excellence as defined in the hadiths
30:59which record his sain's actions and
31:01silence approvals or disapprovals of
31:04Muhammad and in the biography. And the
31:07whole idea by the way is based in on
31:09accepting that Muhammad is the final
31:11prophet because the Quran says so and
31:14the Quran is the word of God because
31:16Muhammad says so. So seeking common
31:20ground. I'm not here for a fight
31:22contrary to what everyone believes.
31:24Everyone thinks everywhere I go I want
31:25to fight. I want to find some common
31:27ground. Finding common ground with
31:29Islam. Muhammad said to the Christians
31:31of Narjan, "Come to a word that is just
31:34between us and you, that we worship none
31:36but Allah, and that we associated no
31:39partners with him." So, Islam presents
31:42itself as religion that wants to seek
31:44common ground with others. Come to a
31:46word, Muhammad was saying, let's find
31:48some common ground. Nothing to be
31:50suspicious of there, right? But it's the
31:52no partners that's the key. Islam says
31:56it wants common ground, but the common
31:58ground must be Islam. Christians must
32:00deny Jesus is the son of God, a partner.
32:04But anyway, let's look for some common
32:06ground. Okay, that's what we want to
32:08find. I I I've seen how this works and
32:10so I'll take as many questions as you
32:11want at the end. I'm just going to
32:12finish my speech. How many of you in
32:15here are gay? You don't actually need to
32:18put your hands up. Okay.
32:20In the Quran, through the story of Lot,
32:22homosexuality is homosexuality is
32:24condemned and four of the five major
32:26schools of Islamic law think it should
32:28be punishable by death. Maybe I'm I'm
32:31going to finish my speech. In fact, 24
32:34countries where Islam is the state
32:35religion have criminal penalties for
32:37homosexuality. Eight of them is
32:39punishable by death. So, while we're on
32:41the Maybe if you're gay, you might maybe
32:43be a little bit suspicious of this.
32:45That's in Afghanistan, Iran, Qatar,
32:47Saudi Arabia, UAE, Yemen. They kill you
32:50for being gay.
32:52Who's protesting about this? When these
32:54countries, state legislators or
32:56governments visit our country, who
32:57protest, I'd just love to finish with
32:59you.
33:01>> Point of order has been raised.
33:02President,
33:03>> as per discussions with previous
33:05speakers, we did agree that we would
33:06take points of information from fellow
33:09speaker, guests, and audience members.
33:11If you can respect that as part of a
33:12constructive debate, that would be very
33:13much appreciated.
33:14>> Thank the president for that point of
33:15order. Mr. Robinson. I think the idea
33:17that the president's putting across is
33:19>> hear a question first.
33:20>> Take a question every now and then. Take
33:22a question every now and then, please.
33:23Thank you.
33:24>> Can we at least agree killing people
33:26because they are homosexuals is never
33:28okay. It was never okay then and it's
33:31not okay now.
33:33>> Now I'll have to listen.
33:37I see how this works. Where does it say
33:39in the Quran on the teaching of the
33:40Prophet Muhammad that someone who has
33:43who is homosexual, gay should be
33:45executed?
33:45>> You don't need to convince me, mate. You
33:47need to convince the eight Islamic
33:48countries that are killing them, the
33:49people are being thrown off rooftops. Go
33:51have your argument with Hamas. Go have
33:52your argument with ISIS. You don't need
33:53to convince me now. Please, if I can
33:55just finish again. Again, let's talk
33:59about sex. Okay. How many of you have
34:02had sex since you got here? I want to
34:04see your hands up. [laughter]
34:05I knew that was coming, right? You see,
34:10you see, the Quran prescribes 100 lashes
34:12for the male and the female involved in
34:14what Islam considers illegal sexual
34:15intercourse. That's the Quran 242. But
34:18Islamic scholars have gone all in on
34:20this issue. Yeah. Not just lashing. All
34:23schools of Islamic law prescribe death
34:25by stoning if a person is married. And
34:29the Shia school, Jafari, prescribes 100
34:32lashes before you're stoned to death. So
34:35maybe if you think no one believes in
34:37this, if you think no one believes in
34:38this barbaric stuff in 2023, the head I
34:41imam of the Green Lane Mosque, the head
34:43imam, you can watch this video, actually
34:45gives a seminar to his congregation on
34:47how we keep the modesty of the woman
34:49before we smash rocks at her head. So
34:51you see, she has to be buried up to a
34:53certain level to pres to preserve her
34:55modesty.
34:58>> Is what you are discussing not abuse of
35:01Islamic scripture? Not actually what is
35:02discussed in the Islamic scripture? Give
35:04me examples from Islamic scripture, in
35:06Islamic law, not cherrypicked examples
35:07have been taken out of context. Give me
35:09examples from the verses of the Quran
35:11that back up your arguments.
35:13>> Should should should the lady
35:17this the simple question is should the
35:20gay person who was thrown off the
35:22rooftop have been suspicious? Should the
35:24lady buried into the ground having rocks
35:26smashed to her head, which is the law,
35:28which I'll get to,
35:30>> does it matter what the Quran says when
35:33Muslims do not practice it? Does it
35:35matter when the Muslims who are
35:38professing exactly what you just said
35:40are the ones?
35:42>> Yep.
35:43>> Now, 25 countries 25 countries where
35:47Islam is the state religion have
35:49criminal penalties for sex outside of
35:51marriage. Nine of them is punishable by
35:53death. So again, you no one needs to
35:54have this argument with me. You don't
35:55need to convince me. Okay? You don't
35:57need to convince me. Again, who's
35:59protesting about this? Can we at least
36:00agree as a room? Can we look for some
36:02common ground with the Muslim community?
36:04Stoning people for having sex outside of
36:06marriage is never okay. It was never
36:09okay. It's not okay then and it's not
36:11okay now. [snorts]
36:12>> Uh since Jewish law says the same thing,
36:15>> I'm not here to talk about Jewish law.
36:16>> Be suspicious of Jewish law. Will you be
36:18consistent, sir?
36:19>> That's not the question we're here for.
36:20If you want to have that question
36:21debate, have it. Yeah. [applause]
36:24Can we at least agree with the Muslim
36:26community? Okay. In modern Britain where
36:28you're preaching to what now 4 million
36:29Muslims, we can just put a line through
36:31the verses in the Quran. Yeah. The parts
36:33of Islam's sacred text that says these
36:35things are not okay. They're not
36:37practiced now. They weren't okay then
36:38and they're not okay now. Can we meet in
36:40the middle somewhere and have have you
36:42accept the verses in the Quran today?
36:43>> Will will you demand that Orthodox Jews
36:46put line put put lines through the the
36:48Tanakh?
36:50that what helps Jews put line for the
36:51Tanak as you are requesting Muslims to
36:53do.
36:53>> I think you're confused at which debate
36:55you're at. Okay. And the motion of this
36:57debate.
36:58>> Now, [applause]
37:00let's turn to good old Muhammad. Okay.
37:04According to Islam sacred text, an
37:05exalted example of moral excellence.
37:08Well, in 2014, ISIS again, cuz this is
37:11important because they're following
37:12scripture. ISIS when they captured Jaz,
37:16>> sorry, ask any Muslim whether they
37:19believe ISIS is following Islamic
37:20scripture and you will find that no
37:22Muslim agrees that they are actually
37:24Islamic
37:28>> once again. Once again,
37:32>> let me ask the question.
37:33>> I'm sorry, Madam President. I think the
37:35point has been made. You must allow the
37:36speech to continue. In 2014, ISIS
37:38executed captured Yazidi men and boys.
37:41And what they done is they pulled their
37:42pants down. They surrendered. They
37:44pulled their pants down. Anyone who's
37:45had any pubic hair, was shot in the
37:48head, and some of them had their heads
37:49cut off with knives. You can watch the
37:50videos if you want online. Yeah. Okay.
37:53They were following the example of
37:54Muhammad, who according to Islam's own
37:56sacred texts, presided over the
37:58execution of up to 900 men and boys,
38:01which was the Jewish tribe who had
38:02surrendered. And any male prisoner, any
38:04male, let me finish. Any male prisoner
38:07who had pubic hair was executed. That is
38:10what the practice that the Muslims in
38:122014 were following. This is why
38:14scripture is important and then why we
38:16must be suspicious. Now consider the
38:18fact I'll just finish please consider
38:20the fact that there are no Jews. None in
38:24any of the 26 countries where Islam is a
38:26state religion. Countries which once
38:27held thriving Jewish communities. This
38:30is not an accident. And there are
38:31precious few Christians in any of these
38:33Islamic countries either that once had
38:35majority Christian populations. You see,
38:37one way or another, these countries are
38:39following the example of Muhammad. I
38:41will certainly expel the Jews and
38:43Christians. Excuse me. Can I just
38:45finish? I will certainly expel the Jews
38:47and Christians from the Arabian
38:48Peninsula and will not leave any but
38:51Muslim. That's a quote of Muhammad Sahi
38:53Muslim. Sahi being the authentic
38:56considered most authentic hadith. Please
38:59can I just finish?
39:02On the point. On the point. On the
39:03point. On the point.
39:04>> Does it mean I have to accept?
39:05>> No, it doesn't.
39:07>> Okay. So, of course,
39:10put your hands up if you think it's okay
39:13for a man older than most of your dads,
39:16say in their 50s, to marry someone in
39:18infant school, let's say 6 years old,
39:20and constimumate that marriage, rape,
39:23when the little girl reaches nine. By
39:24the way, that's year five. Doing key
39:26stage two. Doing key stage two. No,
39:29please. cuz I know many of you gentlemen
39:30should have your hands up at this point.
39:31No, we're going to get on to it. But you
39:33agree that Muhammad was perfect as as we
39:36know he had he married a six-year-old,
39:37had sex with her when she was nine.
39:39We've had we've previously had this
39:40discussion hand.
39:42>> Do you think children should be
39:43suspicious of Islam who studying key
39:45stage 2?
39:46>> Now, please can I just finish?
39:48>> And of course, can I please finish?
39:50Please let me finish. You can get on.
39:52>> Speaker declined. Please allow the
39:53speaker to continue.
39:55And I must mention Quran 65:4 where God
40:00debatable God spells out the rules for
40:03divorcing pre-bubescent children. Okay,
40:06so let me read it. And for those who
40:09have no courses, not yet started your
40:11periods, who are still immature, their
40:14ida, their we waiting period is 3
40:17months. What has happened for a child to
40:19be married? And this is the Quran
40:21telling you what the rules are and
40:22obligations to divorce a child before
40:25they've started puberty. Yeah.
40:28>> Can we be suspicious on this question?
40:29Is this No, please. Can I finish them?
40:32And to buy it, be honest. I'm just here.
40:34I'm the extremist apparently. Yeah. I'm
40:37the extremist for not wanting homosexual
40:39phone off rooftops, not wanting women
40:40buried in the ground, and not wanting
40:41children studying key stage 2 to be
40:43married and raped. So of the 10
40:45countries with the highest rates of
40:47child marriage, seven of them are
40:49Islamic countries. There's no minimum
40:50age in Sudan, Somalia, Saudi Arabia,
40:53Yemen because there's no minimum age in
40:55Islam. But whatever the state of legal
40:57age for marriages in some Muslim
40:59countries, forced marriage of young
41:00girls often to much older men is
41:03prevalent in Afghanistan, in Pakistan,
41:05in Bangladesh, Bernit, Pikina Faso,
41:07Yemen. I could go on and on. UNICEF data
41:11shows for all of you ladies who care
41:12about women and children's rights.
41:14UNICEF data shows child brides are
41:16unlikely to finish education more likely
41:19to believe wife beating is justified and
41:22more likely to have experienced intimate
41:24part of violence. I'd just like to
41:26finish please guys. I apologize. Can we
41:28at least agree executing prisoners of
41:30war including young boys carrying out
41:33ethnic cleansing of Jews and Christians
41:34from the lands or marrying having sex
41:36with a little child when Muhammad was 53
41:38years old? Can we at least agree today
41:42Muhammad was not and is not the perfect
41:44example for mankind. Nor is he an
41:46exalted example of moral excellence?
41:49Quite the opposite in fact. Because if
41:51we can't agree this, then the West is
41:54right to be suspicious of Islam. because
41:56of what the sacred text says, because of
41:58how millions of Muslims interpret the
42:00sacred text, because of how Muhammad's
42:02life is held up as the perfect example,
42:06not back then, but now for all Muslims
42:09to follow. That's the problem. They
42:10don't recognize any of the problems and
42:12see anything wrong, which Muhammad done.
42:14So ladies and gentlemen, if you care
42:16about gay rights, if you care about
42:18women's rights, if you care about
42:20children's rights, if you care about
42:21human rights, or if you care about free
42:23speech, I urge you to support this
42:26motion.
42:28[applause]
42:32I thank the honorable gentleman for
42:34advancing the case for the proposition
42:36and I call upon Mr. Madawad to continue
42:39the case for the opposition.
42:41Okay.
42:43So, first of all, I'd like to start by
42:45thanking Oxford Union for inviting me to
42:47speak here. I am truly honored and and
42:49very grateful to be here. I never
42:50thought I'd be here to be honest. I've
42:53met a new friend of Jacob Remog. So, you
42:55know, this is um I've had a nice meal,
42:57some halal chicken, which I'm sure Tommy
42:58enjoyed. Um so, I just thanking the um
43:02and Liam of course likes a bit of halal
43:04chicken now. So, I know you do, mate.
43:06So, I just thank I just take this
43:08opportunity to thank you guys. So the
43:10the real question, I believe the first
43:11question was is should the West be
43:13suspicious of Islam? Was that a question
43:16of the debate? You're nodding your head,
43:18so it must be right. So Tommy, you've
43:21been wait I'm going to know why I'm
43:22here, but I'm going to answer that.
43:23Tommy's been saying the same thing for
43:2515 years and still has to read it.
43:26>> Proven right. Proven right.
43:27>> Well, because you still have to read it.
43:28So obviously you don't know your case
43:30that well. So
43:31>> point of order.
43:31>> Should the West be proven right?
43:33>> Yeah. Right. Gosh, mate. So should the
43:36West be suspicious?
43:37>> Point of order. Do you allow people to
43:39cut cut in without permission from the
43:40speaker?
43:41>> Um, I think we ask that speeches be
43:44heard in in some courtesy. Gentlemen, if
43:47the point of information is declined,
43:49>> then please simply allow the speaker to
43:51continue.
43:52>> I don't mind taking questions.
43:53>> Well, then I I it is for the speaker to
43:55choose whether a point of information is
43:57accepted.
43:59>> With that, Mr. D, please continue.
44:01>> I haven't even started yet. Give me a
44:02minute. Right. So, should the W should
44:05the West be suspicious of Islam? Well,
44:07the truth for that is it's going to
44:08depend. Okay, it's going to depend. If
44:10you're invested in pornography, if
44:12you're invested in alcohol, if you're
44:13invested in interest banking, if you're
44:15invested in drink, drugs, criminality,
44:18then probably you should be suspicious
44:19of Islam because Islam has come as an
44:21alternative way of life to that. Islam,
44:23what is it?
44:24>> Um, could we add Judaism to that list?
44:27>> Sure. Okay. But and you can't become a
44:29Jew. So, so not very easily. So, so
44:34Islam has come as an Islam has come as a
44:37option an alternative to those vices in
44:39this world. Okay. The real question
44:41should be the real question should be
44:44should the west be suspicious of Muslims
44:46practicing Islam in the west. That's the
44:48question. And why why would you be?
44:50Because Tommy said so. Because Tommy
44:52said that you should be suspicious of
44:53this religion and suspicious of
44:54practicing or I don't know extreme
44:56Muslims. Okay. So, let's talk a little
44:58bit about Tommy's credibility because
45:00Tommy has spent the last 15 years of
45:03building his credibility upon being a
45:05white man from Luton and he's been Go
45:08on.
45:08>> This debate is not about
45:12>> it's [cheering] about it's I'm getting
45:14to it. All right. Sit down. Sit down.
45:16Sit down.
45:17>> The gentleman's made his point. Please
45:19take a seat.
45:19>> Sit down.
45:22>> And are you in it as well? Are you in it
45:23as well?
45:23>> The speaker will be heard.
45:25>> Are you in it as well? I don't mind
45:27taking out the lot of you, mate. I don't
45:28mind. It's not a problem. Listen, so the
45:31credibility is it's important to basis
45:33the credibility. Okay. In the debate, of
45:36course. In the debate, of course. It's
45:38important to debate.
45:39>> Gentlemen, please take your seats. Both
45:42of you gentlemen.
45:42>> He just said he doesn't mind taking us
45:44out. So, we have a Muslim again. Yeah.
45:46In the debate.
45:47>> Mr. Secret, can I ask you just to take
45:49your seats? Mr. Doward, can I ask you to
45:51just stop speaking for one second?
45:53Speakers will be heard with courtesy if
45:56a point of information is offered and it
45:59is in decline.
46:01>> Can I please ask that you allow the
46:02speaker to continue?
46:04>> Equally may I say to the speaker it is
46:05expected the points of information will
46:08be taken during your speech.
46:10>> I've took about four or five.
46:11>> I understand that sir and with that I
46:12will ask the speaker to continue.
46:14>> Gentlemen Gentlemen can I can I please
46:17ask no interjections other than points
46:19of information.
46:20>> Point of order chair. point of warnings
46:23which you briefed us must be taken.
46:25>> A threat to take out people on the other
46:27side is unacceptable
46:29>> totally
46:29>> and should be dealt with by the
46:32[applause]
46:33>> Mr. Doward. Mr. Doward, have you made
46:36such a threat? And if so, I must ask you
46:38to withdraw.
46:38>> It was it was a threat within the debate
46:40to take them within the debate because
46:41we're in a debate in four.
46:43>> Mr. Doward, can I ask you [applause]
46:46>> can I ask you in that case to moderate
46:47your language? I will retract and avoid
46:49and avoid the misunderstanding. retract
46:51what I said if that's a doable thing.
46:53Right. So, let me let me get on. He's
46:55built his credibility from coming from
46:56Luton and telling people that Luton now
46:58is now a Muslim run town predominantly.
47:00It has um 40ome mosques. It has some
47:03extremist moss, some extremist this and
47:04that, Sharia run courts. But I'm also
47:07from Luton, you know, and I've also been
47:10in Luton for 56 years. I was born there
47:12and I'm still there. I'm still living on
47:14the mana. As far as I know, Tommy hasn't
47:16lived there for at least 10 years. I
47:17believe now he lives in Spain like most
47:19good patriots do. They move on to Spain.
47:21So let's talk a little bit about Tommy's
47:23time in Luton because it's it's I'm not
47:25going to do you. Right. So talking about
47:27his little bit of time that he had in
47:29Luton. It's well documented that Tommy
47:31was in uh the Luton firm.
47:33>> Point of information. This debate is not
47:36about Tommy Robinson, what he does in
47:38his free time, what he thinks. It's
47:41about whether the West should be
47:43suspicious of Islam. He is the one
47:45telling the West to be suspicious of
47:47Islam. So it's important that I build
47:49his I take his credibility about how to
47:51say that. Okay. The arguments that he
47:54had in Luton while he was in the mix
47:55which was the Lutontown football um firm
47:58gang whatever it is. Most towns and
48:00cities have them. Okay. That's what his
48:02time. There was other gangs in Luton.
48:04Wasn't the only one. No, there was there
48:06was other gangs in Luton. One of them
48:07was called the Gambinos. One of them was
48:09called the Yellows. I know these are
48:10ridiculous names but we are talking
48:12ridiculous people in these gangs at the
48:13time.
48:14Let me finish please. Okay. So, I've
48:17taken a few points of information. You
48:18just seem to be doing it now just to
48:19stifle because No, I'm not taking any
48:20from you. Okay. Okay. The the problems
48:24that these gangs had, as Tommy would
48:26say, was either religious and or racial
48:28between Pakistanis and his uh football
48:31guys was really not racial. It wasn't
48:33racial. It wasn't religious. It was
48:34normally like most gangs, supply and
48:36demand of product. Okay, that's what it
48:38comes down to. Tommy would also Tommy
48:41would also say that there was an
48:42extremist group in Luton. No, there was
48:45an extremist group in Luton called Al
48:47Maroon. I agree with him. It was an
48:49extremist group. And I made my
48:51opposition to this group vocal at that
48:53time when they was there, you know, but
48:55even a broken clock can be right twice a
48:57day. This group was tiny. It was eight
48:59strong at most with maybe eight hangers
49:02on, one foot in, one foot out. They were
49:04barred from every mosque I knew. I don't
49:06know all of the mosques, but they were
49:07barred from every mosque that I knew.
49:09Most of the shops in the town, the
49:11Muslim shops, they didn't want to let
49:12them in either. But the amplification of
49:14their message was done by the media. The
49:16media would go to the predominantly
49:18Muslim populated area in Luton called
49:20Berry Park. They'd walk down there with
49:21a camera. They'd stick it in front of
49:22these guys and they will be straight in
49:24front of it. It wasn't No, it was
49:26amplified deliberately to cause friction
49:28between communities. That small
49:30extremist group doesn't exist anymore. I
49:32believe they've been disbanded and um
49:34they don't they don't even hang around
49:36with each other anymore. I I could tell
49:38you. Yes.
49:39>> I just want to go back.
49:41>> Okay.
49:42>> If you consume foods, if you consume
49:46drugs and if you lend money for
49:48interest, you should be suspicious of
49:49Islam.
49:51>> No, I said if you invested in
49:52>> Why should we?
49:53>> Because Islam has come as an alternate
49:55choice to that. Islam has Islam has come
49:57as an alternate way of life to that. I
49:59think I explained it when I mentioned it
50:00the first time. There's a lot more that
50:02I want to tell you. Time does not permit
50:03me to speak here for an hour. So
50:06obviously I can't go into detail about
50:08everything. I know in detail about this
50:10group of al- Majarun because I was one
50:12of the trusted go-betweens from mosques
50:14in Luton that was trying to get them to
50:16stop talking. As he says a lot of the
50:18time that there's not enough calling out
50:19of Muslims in the public. But it is it
50:22does happen. There was 500 mosques that
50:26an email condemning the grooming gangs,
50:27but it never really got out there. And
50:29they all done that. Okay, they done that
50:31years ago. I think it's 2013. Anyway,
50:33these these mosques in Luton was go a
50:36go-between between the Almarajun group
50:38and the mosque was me because I was a
50:39trusted gobetween. Even though I was
50:41anti this group, they still trusted me
50:43to go between them. And I know that most
50:45of Luton didn't want them there. It
50:47wasn't the case. Okay? Like I said, I
50:49would I would love to say more. There's
50:51a lot more beans that I could spill to
50:52be quite honest with you. So, let me
50:54give you a version of Luton that I
50:55recognize. Tommy has a version of Lutin
50:58that he recognizes. Tommy has a version
50:59of Luton that he recognizes. Let me give
51:01you a couple of points of the luton that
51:03I recognize. Okay? And I'll firstly go
51:05back to the first lockdown in COVID
51:08where everyone was social distancing and
51:10taking it seriously and everything else.
51:12There was a Muslim charity in Luton and
51:14it's still there actually. There was a
51:16Muslim charity in Luton. We were hand I
51:17was volunteering for them cuz I was off
51:19work for a few weeks, okay, due to the
51:20building sites shutting down. We were
51:22handing out food packs. Muslims were
51:24coming and handing him food and or
51:27giving us money to buy food from
51:28supermarkets and whatever. I'm going to
51:30say 99% but it was more realistically
51:33100%. But I'll say 99%. The food packs
51:37that I personally handed out were to
51:39white old age pensioners that lived in
51:41old age pensioner homes or care homes. I
51:43never once handed it out to a Muslim
51:45family, a Polish family or any other. It
51:48was purely white old age pensioners.
51:50>> Information I asked what was charity.
51:51>> What charity?
51:52>> A crisis aid. Okay. And it's still
51:55there. It's in Sun Park. Okay. Right. So
51:58the it's still there. The charity. Okay.
51:59So, we was handing out these things. I
52:01remember one 90-year-old man, he had to
52:03buzz me into his care home and I put the
52:06um bags outside and had to step up the
52:08way because there was um social
52:10distancing. He come out buckled in half.
52:12He sell I tried to speak to him. He told
52:14me I've got cancer. I'm 93 years old and
52:17I'm going to die soon and none of my
52:18family speak to me. None of my family
52:20help me. This is the Islam in in Luton
52:23that I recognize. Let me give you
52:24another one. I was in Farley, not
52:26opposite the the parrot pub that Tommy
52:28would have remembered. Okay. There was a
52:30care home. I was working there for BTS
52:31the council. What?
52:33>> And do you understand that the speaker
52:34was confused about the the motion at the
52:36beginning?
52:37>> Yeah. I'm not confused. I'm I'm not
52:39confused.
52:39>> This is about Islam.
52:40>> I know. I'm I'm talking about Islam. If
52:41you remember, I've said Islam quite a
52:43lot in my talk. Okay. Don't stand up for
52:44a point of because I'm done with you
52:46now. Yeah. So, listen. So, I was working
52:48at this care home. I was working at this
52:50care home and a taxi come pulling in.
52:53Okay. I noticed that one of the women
52:54was in the in the passenger seat. She
52:56clearly was distressed. this big fat
52:59Pakistani brother with a big black beard
53:01jumped out, opened the car door. She had
53:03fallen over in the street. He'd picked
53:04her up, put her in the car, and he
53:06brought her back to the um care home. He
53:08was literally in tears. He wanted my
53:10number. He wanted to go to the hospital.
53:11Why are you suspicious of these people?
53:13Who are these people do suspicious of?
53:15Who are these people to be suspicious
53:16of? Okay, Tommy is desperate to make
53:18connections between crime and Islam,
53:20especially when it comes to SA crimes.
53:23He desperate to make disconnection
53:24between the crime and Islam. Even though
53:26nobody that commits these crimes says
53:28that they did it because of Islam. But
53:30when it comes to Muslims that do good
53:31things, NHS workers, doctors, nurses, uh
53:34charity care sector workers, which Islam
53:36is over represented in those in those
53:39areas, [applause]
53:40never does he want to make the
53:43connection between Muslims doing good
53:44deeds and Islam. It's only No, I told
53:47you already. No, never does he make the
53:49connection between Muslims doing good
53:51deeds and Islam. In fact, actually when
53:53you ask these doctors, nurses, care
53:54workers, u charity sector workers, why
53:57do you do it? They'll say because my
53:58religion tells me to be a good person.
54:00My religion tells me to be in service of
54:01the people. He doesn't want to hear
54:03that. He just wants to paint this
54:04picture. You you cannot serve two
54:07masters. You can only be loyal to one
54:10master. And I tell you now without any
54:11hesitation, my master is Allahill.
54:15There is no god worthy of worship except
54:17Allah. Okay? But my God tells me how to
54:20serve you. My God tells me how to serve
54:22you. Okay? So I don't I can be in
54:25service. I don't care if you're Muslim,
54:26non-Muslim, black, white, fat, thin,
54:28short, tall. I don't care. I will serve
54:30you because my religion and my master
54:31Allah tells me how to be in service to
54:33my community. No, [applause]
54:36>> no, no. I will give you many
54:40>> Mr. Jones lines. Thank you.
54:42>> I've done more than two, right? I will
54:44give you multiple examples. I will give
54:46you multiple examples of Muslims, people
54:48that have changed their lives and become
54:50better fathers, better husbands, better
54:52community members, better people in
54:54society, better daughters, better wives,
54:57better better people in society because
54:58they've accepted Islam. Some of them are
55:00sitting in this room today. Maybe I
55:02could put myself in that category as
55:03well. Why are you suspicious? Why are
55:05you suspicious of these people? Why?
55:07They they only Islam has only ever
55:09brought good to them and made them
55:10better citizens. Why would you be
55:11suspicious? And of course And of course.
55:15Yes, you can yawn. You know, this is
55:17this is this is what you do. It's not a
55:18problem. I'm not here for you. Yeah. And
55:20it's past mine, too. Okay. Of course, I
55:22want to spread Islam. Who would I be if
55:24I had the truth and didn't want to share
55:26it with you people? Who would I be if I
55:28knew that Islam or believed at least
55:30that Islam was the truth and I didn't
55:31want to share it with you people cuz I
55:32thought it was the best thing? If I had
55:34a big plate of food and you was hungry
55:36and it it cost me nothing to give you
55:38food, it cost me nothing. No, it cost me
55:41No, it cost me nothing to give you food.
55:44Why would I not give you food? Why? I
55:46don't want to do any points of call. You
55:48you was avoided and fat prohibits
55:50Muslims give
55:51>> gentlemen.
55:52>> Sorry Muslims giving charity.
55:54>> No, there isn't serious.
55:55>> No, there isn't.
55:56>> Gentlemen, gentlemen, please. Thank you.
55:59>> Please allow Mr. Daw to finish. He's
56:01declined a point of information.
56:02>> That's enough. That's enough.
56:04>> I've said that's enough.
56:05>> Um the speakers on this side have been
56:07egregious in um attack on the
56:09>> Yes, it's been a constant. It's okay.
56:11>> Can the chair please take some action?
56:14>> [applause]
56:17>> I work better under pressure. I work
56:20better under pressure.
56:21>> If I can ask you to stop one second. I
56:22thank the honorable gentleman from that
56:24point of order. I think on both sides
56:25there have been unwarranted
56:27interjections.
56:27>> Yeah.
56:28>> A point of order. If declined, please
56:31take your seat again. Do not continue to
56:33interject. I will say to the honorable
56:35gentleman, I have seen that from both
56:36sides this evening. It is not, as he
56:38puts it, on one side only. on both sides
56:41of information is declined. Please take
56:43your seat again. Mr. Doward, please
56:45continue.
56:46>> Okay. So, why would I not want to spread
56:47Islam? Why would I wish that I could
56:49take my heart and give it to you people
56:52for a minute so you could taste the
56:53sweetness of iman and then you would
56:55never be suspicious of Muslims again.
56:57There is not a single head on anyone's
56:59hair apart from Tus that I would touch
57:02unjustly. And that's inside and outside
57:04of this hall that I mean no harm to
57:07anybody. I will defend myself if I have
57:09to. But no Muslim that I know thinks
57:11like that either. Why wouldn't I want to
57:12share that? Where is the problem with
57:14that? I want to My friend here, my
57:15colleague is going to deal with the age
57:16of Aisha. I dealt with it for 10 or 11
57:18minutes on Liam's podcast. So, I don't
57:20think that I need to um go into that
57:22again. My friend will deal with that.
57:23Okay. You mentioned the verse in the
57:25Quran about preubescent women being
57:27married. It's not true. Okay. If you
57:28knew what you were talking about, you
57:29wouldn't have said it. The word that's
57:30used for the the for the female in the
57:33Quran is a word that's used for women.
57:34That ayah of the Quran was revealed
57:36because a man come to ask the prophet
57:38what how do I divorce my wife if she
57:40does not have periods because she is
57:42past the age of period. She's a mature
57:44woman. That's what that was for. Then
57:46the verse was revealed. [applause]
57:49No, that's not that's that's what it is.
57:50You're not an expert on the Quran.
57:52You're not an expert on Islam. You you
57:54present yourself to be an expert to
57:56people that don't know any better, but
57:57you're not talking to those people
57:58today. No. No more points of
58:00information. No more points of
58:02information. We talk about we talk about
58:04I'll be one second. Yeah. One minute. We
58:06talk about reform. They talk about want
58:07to reform Islam. How dare he? How dare
58:10they and how dare he say a man that is
58:13ignorant within the religion of Islam
58:15talk about reforming of Islam. Okay. His
58:17people that come to talk here are people
58:19of intelligence, people of
58:20professorships, people that are
58:22intellects in their field. This man is
58:24not an intellect in the field or
58:25authority in the field of Islam. And his
58:27presence about talking about Islam is a
58:29disservice to this place. [applause]
58:36I thank the honorable gentleman for that
58:38speech advancing the opposition. I call
58:41upon Mr. Lawrence Fox to continue the
58:43case for the proposition.
58:49Do I need to raise this up or is it
58:52suitably heightened for the Luton
58:55community? Um,
58:58before Neville Chamberlain flew to
59:00Germany to appease Adolf Hitler, he
59:03said, "European peace is what I'm aiming
59:05at. And I hope this journey may open the
59:08way to get it." And here we are 87 years
59:12later and European peace and peace in
59:15the West is being threatened again.
59:18Upon his return from Germany with his
59:21piece of paper, Chamberlain said, "We
59:24are resolved that the method of
59:25consultation
59:27shall be the method adopted to deal with
59:29any other questions that may concern our
59:31two countries." And 338 days later,
59:34Britain was at [clears throat] war with
59:36Germany. So this morning, I was thinking
59:39about this debate and the worthiness of
59:42consultation
59:43which Chamberlain invoked and the
59:46motion. this house believes the West is
59:48right to be suspicious of Islam. And
59:50then I started thinking about a cartoon
59:54that I have here in this envelope. It's
59:57a cartoon which
1:00:00I think it instills in me feelings much
1:00:03much more worrying than suspicion.
1:00:07But
1:00:09you know, in the spirit of consultation,
1:00:11I'll just leave it here for the moment
1:00:12if we're okay with that.
1:00:15So first let us start with the word
1:00:18suspicion.
1:00:20There was a minority going back to
1:00:22Chamberlain in that brilliant foreign
1:00:24policy. There was a minority who were
1:00:26gravely suspicious of fascism leading up
1:00:29to the second world war and were very
1:00:30vocal in that suspicion who thought that
1:00:33Chamberlain's appeasement policy was
1:00:34just wrong. That far from being the
1:00:36peace in our time he promised our
1:00:39appeasement would only serve to embolden
1:00:41Hitler.
1:00:43One of those who faced the most
1:00:45criticism for his precience, suspicious
1:00:48precience perhaps, was Winston
1:00:51Churchill. He saw fascism for what it
1:00:53was, an existential threat to the West.
1:00:58>> No one needs a history lesson from me.
1:01:01But it is possibly worth noting now,
1:01:04especially here and thanks to our lovely
1:01:06friends outside that it is perfectly
1:01:09acceptable and actively encouraged in
1:01:12every school, university, TV channel and
1:01:14media uh organization across the West to
1:01:17be suspicious of fascism. In fact, if we
1:01:21listen to our friends outside, that's
1:01:22not enough. You've got to be an
1:01:24anti-fascist. You've got to take direct
1:01:27action against fascism.
1:01:30Chamberlain today just seems like a
1:01:32moronic simpleton to me. So perhaps the
1:01:35deaths of millions of people could have
1:01:36been avoided if only Churchill's
1:01:38suspicion
1:01:39had been heeded
1:01:41that his perspective acknowledged. But
1:01:44he stood alone whilst the train
1:01:46continued to hurdle towards us because
1:01:48we didn't want to upset anybody.
1:01:50It is an entirely natural and positive
1:01:54human instinct to be suspicious of many
1:01:57things. From teaching our children not
1:02:00to get in cars with strangers to friends
1:02:02checking in on each other when one is
1:02:04going on a date with a new person for
1:02:05the first time. Suspicion is healthy. It
1:02:08sparks in every single senue of our
1:02:10being. It is the product of generational
1:02:13generational caution in pursuit of
1:02:15survival.
1:02:16It's central to our very fundamentalist
1:02:19of instincts. It isn't prejudice. It's
1:02:21prudence. Suspicion isn't hatred either.
1:02:24It's pattern recognition. And I would
1:02:27like to make it clear at this point.
1:02:28Awa, I would like to thank you so much
1:02:30for inviting us to have this debate. And
1:02:31I know you've struggled so much with
1:02:33people trying to cancel you. And I know
1:02:35exactly what that feels like. So, thank
1:02:37you so much.
1:02:40But [applause]
1:02:44I think I would like to make it very
1:02:46clear that I am not here to express
1:02:49suspicions of individual Muslims at all.
1:02:52There are many Muslims including with
1:02:54within my own family who I love deeply.
1:02:57And as a Christian, I am commanded to
1:03:00love my neighbor and to pray for my
1:03:02enemy. It is my most strongly held
1:03:05belief on this planet that every single
1:03:07human life is sacred and all lives
1:03:10matter.
1:03:13[applause]
1:03:16But I am not I am absolutely not and I
1:03:20will not be commanded to love or submit
1:03:22to ideas or ideologies. As was mentioned
1:03:25earlier as Jesus said render to Caesar
1:03:27what is Caesar. within one directive he
1:03:30created the separation between church
1:03:31and state which is which in Islam does
1:03:34not exist which literally in well Islam
1:03:37literally means submission. So there is
1:03:39no church there is no state there is
1:03:41only Islam. My suspicion of Islam
1:03:45therefore is strongly and I think
1:03:47reasonably held. Islam is a
1:03:50comprehensive social, political and
1:03:51military doctrine which leaves no part
1:03:53of its followers lives untouched. As
1:03:55Andrew Hussy, the British historian,
1:03:57says, "Islam is more closely resembles a
1:03:59ruthlessly efficient war machine than a
1:04:02religion. Islam is borderless,
1:04:04expansionary, and interested only in
1:04:07submission to Allah." And for us
1:04:10unfortunate, well, for some of us
1:04:12unfortunate non-believers, we're given
1:04:14three choices.
1:04:14>> Point of information, when was the last
1:04:16time there was a jihad declared against
1:04:19a foreign government and the expansion
1:04:21of Muslim lands into non-Muslim lands?
1:04:23When was the last time? What's that got
1:04:24to what I'm talking about?
1:04:25>> Well, you said that it's a military war
1:04:26machine. It's been around for quite a
1:04:28long time.
1:04:28>> A point of order has been raised. Mr.
1:04:30>> When you're giving points of
1:04:32information, you need to be very
1:04:35audible. So, I think I I I I thank the
1:04:38ex-president for his I I'm not sure
1:04:40that's a point of order. I'm also, as
1:04:42people may may or may not have noticed,
1:04:44I'm not into uh I'm not an Islamic
1:04:46scholar, and I'm not into giving you a
1:04:47history lesson about the Quran. But I
1:04:50will give you a history lesson into the
1:04:51bits of the Quran that I understand and
1:04:53the bits of Islam I understand through
1:04:54those that I love and from my readings.
1:04:57So Islam gives you three options as far
1:04:59as I can tell as a westerner. Submit
1:05:03pay the jiza the tax which
1:05:05institutionalizes inferior status for
1:05:07non-Muslims in Islamic states or excuse
1:05:10me excuse me three war with Muslims.
1:05:13Right. Notably within those three
1:05:17options that Islam offers you, there is
1:05:19not one option which says let's live in
1:05:22peaceful coexistence as equals in a
1:05:23pluralistic society. Not once, not once
1:05:26does it say that.
1:05:29>> I'm certain you are aware that there is
1:05:31an entire chapter in the Quran J chapter
1:05:34called oh disbelievers. The final line
1:05:36of that verse in the Quran is to you is
1:05:38your faith and to me is mine.
1:05:41Are you aware of that chapter in the
1:05:43Quran? And are you aware of the
1:05:44teachings of tolerance the Quran and the
1:05:46Hadith and the Sunnah have taught us for
1:05:47centuries?
1:05:49>> Christian. Thank you. Um I the re I'm
1:05:54just going to explain to you one of the
1:05:55reasons why I didn't want to start
1:05:56quoting Quran verses was because I
1:05:59didn't want to come here and start
1:06:01talking about it says here that you chop
1:06:03people's heads off. It says here that
1:06:04you do that and it says here that you do
1:06:05that. I'm sure that there of excuse me
1:06:08there are very very very many verses in
1:06:10the Quran that talk about peace and love
1:06:12and happiness. It's just all we get is
1:06:15the bombs, the running over the knives
1:06:17and the beheadings. So I'll move on if
1:06:18that's all right. Thank you very much.
1:06:20I'm done. Move on. Thank you very much.
1:06:23So I've said notably peaceful
1:06:24coexistence with uh with non-Muslims is
1:06:27not an opportunity offered. a position
1:06:31which can reasonly be held to say that
1:06:32it creates not just suspicion but
1:06:35tension within a western secular liberal
1:06:38Christian goldfish bowl that Tom Holland
1:06:40tells us we all live in right that's
1:06:41where we live we do no one knows
1:06:43anything anymore everyone's feelings
1:06:45matter so one thing is certain and is
1:06:47backed up by all the data Muslims living
1:06:50in the west are pretty suspicious of us
1:06:55so I'm not going to talk about how I'm
1:06:57why the west should be suspicious of
1:06:58Islam let's talk about how suspicious
1:07:00Islam is of the West. The policy
1:07:02exchange report titled Unsettled
1:07:03Belonging, published in 2016, which
1:07:05claims to be the most extensive research
1:07:07of British Muslims ever conducted,
1:07:09revealed that, let's do it, 43% of
1:07:12British Muslims supported the
1:07:13introduction of Sharia, not British law,
1:07:15Islamic law. 53% uh prefer to send their
1:07:18children to school with strong Muslim
1:07:19values, suspicious perhaps of Western
1:07:21ones, maybe, I don't know. Um
1:07:2644% the school should be able to insist
1:07:28on face coverings. Does this sound like
1:07:30a community which seeks integration? Do
1:07:32we have a right to be suspicious of
1:07:33those who reject our values and the
1:07:35societ and the societal norms of their
1:07:37host country? 24% sympathized with
1:07:40violence organized by groups to protect
1:07:43their religion. That's what the Muslims
1:07:46say. And 31% thought it was more that it
1:07:50was acceptable to keep more than one
1:07:51wife. Illegal in Britain, but fine in
1:07:54Sharia apparently. And 35% believe that
1:07:56the Jews have too much power in the UK.
1:07:5852% compulsory halal. I could go on and
1:08:00on and on and on, but most important to
1:08:02me and most important to me is the free
1:08:04speech of this. So, let's get this out,
1:08:08shall we?
1:08:1178%
1:08:13of British Muslims believe that no
1:08:16publication should publish pictures of
1:08:18Muhammad.
1:08:20An overwhelming majority. That rises
1:08:23that rises to 87%. That's one that's
1:08:26nine out of every 10 Muslims that are
1:08:29walking the streets today in a country
1:08:31which absolutely abandoned blasphemy
1:08:34laws. Suspicion is not strong enough a
1:08:37word. The West should resist Islam in
1:08:40the strongest terms on free speech
1:08:42grounds alone. So here we are with this
1:08:46cartoon, right? And um
1:08:50it's time
1:08:52to show that I will not submit. I will
1:08:55not adhere to the religious laws of
1:08:57faroff places. Now my wife asked me not
1:09:00to show this for fear of repercussions
1:09:02in in my family. But I told her that if
1:09:04I did not then I had already submitted
1:09:06to Islam. So here we are. I'm worried
1:09:08about it.
1:09:09>> Is it not enough that half the team that
1:09:11invited you to this debate were Muslim
1:09:14women who wanted to hear out your your
1:09:16expression and your arguments? Is it not
1:09:18enough that I as a Muslim president have
1:09:19invited you to this chamber to give your
1:09:21arguments? Is that not enough
1:09:23justification and evidence for you to
1:09:24believe that we do believe in free
1:09:26speech? I would not become the president
1:09:27of a free speech society.
1:09:28>> Thank you. [applause]
1:09:30All right. May May I May I in it? Thank
1:09:34you very much. May May I finish? May
1:09:36excuse me. I would order having been
1:09:38raised. I would hear the ex librarian.
1:09:40>> It's a long time since I've been in this
1:09:42chamber and knew the rules by heart. But
1:09:43in the House of Commons, and we model
1:09:46ourselves on the House of Commons, props
1:09:48are not allowed. I wonder whether the
1:09:50rule on props is the same in the Oxford
1:09:53Union.
1:09:55>> I thank the honorable gentleman for his
1:09:57point of order.
1:09:57>> Um, in the in it, excuse me, for one for
1:10:00one second. One moment in the M Mr. F.
1:10:03One moment. One one moment, Mr. Fos. I
1:10:05the ex-president is also raising a point
1:10:06of order I think
1:10:07>> just so it's helpful to uh inform the
1:10:10others at least my colle
1:10:14was not extended and didn't seem to
1:10:16fight the Israel Palestine flag
1:10:19>> thank you so right I just want to wrap
1:10:21this up I am going to rule on the point
1:10:23of order there is no bar in the forms of
1:10:26the house against the use of props
1:10:28however I would encourage Mr. Fox to
1:10:30make the point to move on.
1:10:31>> I I I I was until points for ordered. So
1:10:34it is in that spirit that I will not
1:10:36submit that I show you this as an
1:10:39Englishman who believes in free speech.
1:10:46I will not submit. I WILL NOT BOW DOWN.
1:10:51[applause]
1:10:55RIGHT. So I think which um rather proves
1:10:59the point of the point I was trying to
1:11:02make that in this envelope
1:11:05lived your fear
1:11:07and your fear of Islam and what Islam
1:11:09will do to you that when you sh when you
1:11:13upset its very oversensitive sky wizard
1:11:16and um what lived in this room is a
1:11:19healthy and brilliant and noble British
1:11:22tradition of suspicion of Islam. I
1:11:24encourage you to pass the motion. Thank
1:11:25you very much.
1:11:27[applause]
1:11:30>> I thank the honorable gentleman for that
1:11:32speech advancing the proposition and
1:11:35indeed for his uh we probably have some
1:11:38pens if you want it signed. We can
1:11:39arrange that later on.
1:11:41>> It's her mog.
1:11:42>> And I and I now call upon the president
1:11:45to continue the case for the opposition.
1:11:49[applause]
1:11:56Right.
1:12:00There is anger in this room tonight.
1:12:04There is anger in homes and on streets
1:12:06and throughout communities that no
1:12:08longer feel safe and no longer feel like
1:12:11they matter.
1:12:13Anger from people who feel that no
1:12:15government in any party in a generation
1:12:17has told them the truth about why their
1:12:19lives are the way that they are, why
1:12:21their rent is unpayable, why they cannot
1:12:23get a GP appointment, why the country
1:12:24they knew is not the country their
1:12:26children are inheriting.
1:12:29I'm not going to stand here tonight and
1:12:31tell you your anger is wrong. I'm not
1:12:33going to dismiss you as a racist for
1:12:34asking honest questions about a country
1:12:36that has stopped working for you.
1:12:40And that is why I wanted this debate to
1:12:42be held because we have seen what
1:12:44happens when people's anger goes
1:12:46unressed. It does not disappear. It
1:12:48looks for somewhere to go. And there are
1:12:51people in this country, people on that
1:12:52side of the argument who have made it
1:12:55their business to be standing there when
1:12:57that anger arrives, ready to point it in
1:13:00a direction that serves them and believe
1:13:02me hurts you. The proposition does not
1:13:05have a monopoly on that anger. Mr.
1:13:07Robinson and Mr. Fox have built careers
1:13:09directing that anger easier targets
1:13:12scapegoating Islam and Muslim
1:13:13communities. Not because we are the
1:13:14cause of your suffering, not because we
1:13:17are a direction of your suspicion, but
1:13:19because when you are profiting from a
1:13:21hollowedout country, it is safer to
1:13:24scapegoat a minority to set its citizens
1:13:26against one another than it ever would
1:13:29be to finally let them ask who hollowed
1:13:31their country out in the first place.
1:13:34But first, let me do what I believe side
1:13:36proposition has missed the mark on when
1:13:39this discussion is being held. Let me
1:13:41reiterate what this motion is and what
1:13:43it is not. The motion is not the west is
1:13:46right to be suspicious of Salman Abedi
1:13:48the Manchester Arena bomber. The motion
1:13:50is not the West's right to be suspicious
1:13:51of jihadist ideologies of al-Qaeda of of
1:13:54ISIS of the examples that you've
1:13:55presented. I as a Muslim and I am
1:13:58certain and I can assure you as many
1:14:00many many of the vast majority of
1:14:01Muslims are equally as suspicious of
1:14:03those people of those organizations as
1:14:05anyone in this room.
1:14:08Let me let me let me get to my
1:14:09introduction. Let me get to the
1:14:11question. The motion is the suspicion of
1:14:14Islam itself. Not some caricature that
1:14:17has been painted by Lawrence or by Tommy
1:14:19or from selected verses in the scripture
1:14:22without context, without understanding,
1:14:23without reference to any of the verses
1:14:24that preceded it or came after it. It is
1:14:27not selective understanding by people
1:14:28who do not believe in Islam. The people
1:14:31who behead, the people who wage wars,
1:14:33the people who attack and the people who
1:14:35stone and beheaded, these are not
1:14:37followers of Islam. The motion is about
1:14:39Islam.
1:14:41>> [applause]
1:14:44>> The motion is about the body of the
1:14:46teaching, the 1,400year tradition, the
1:14:48faith carried by 1.9 billion people,
1:14:51almost all of whom could not have been
1:14:53further removed in their faith, in my
1:14:55faith, from the abhorrent crimes
1:14:57committed supposedly in their name. And
1:14:59this is the important bit that I think
1:15:00you all miss.
1:15:02>> Yes.
1:15:02>> So the people who killed the Copic
1:15:04crystals, the people who killed for
1:15:06ISIS,
1:15:08were they not part of that 1.9 million?
1:15:10religious on
1:15:11>> they were not following the teachings of
1:15:13Islam and I will get to exactly why they
1:15:14were not no they were they were not
1:15:15following the teachings of Islam and I
1:15:16will get to why I will get to why the
1:15:18motion is about Islam not about people
1:15:20who claim to believe in Islam and then
1:15:22misrepresent and denigrate our religion
1:15:28the motion is that the body of teaching
1:15:31itself is the cause of those atrocities
1:15:32in a way that Christianity, Judaism,
1:15:34Hinduism and even secular ideologies are
1:15:36not the causes of their own. that our
1:15:38faith is inherently incompatible with
1:15:40and in fact are a danger to British
1:15:42society, its values, its traditions, and
1:15:44its culture. That every Muslim therefore
1:15:46warrants a presumption of suspicion. And
1:15:47I am going to point by point take your
1:15:49arguments at their highest and tell you
1:15:51why they are wrong. First, given that
1:15:54there were arguments presented by
1:15:55Lawrence, I'm not too sure where he's
1:15:56gone. Lawrence and Tommy, there you are.
1:15:59Lawrence and Tommy about presums
1:16:03in the Quran and verses. I want to take
1:16:05you through what they actually say, what
1:16:07the teachings actually say, what Islam
1:16:09actually says, not the caricature you've
1:16:11been painting.
1:16:13And then I'd like to ask you whether you
1:16:14are suspicious of those values and those
1:16:16cultures.
1:16:18The claim that the Quran is a manual of
1:16:20violence and that mainstream Islam is
1:16:21therefore inherently at war with and in
1:16:23contradiction with Western values is
1:16:24what I've heard tonight. You will have
1:16:26heard, for example, both from JL and
1:16:27Tommy Robinson that the proposition
1:16:29calls the sword verse, "Kill the
1:16:31unbelievers wherever you find them.
1:16:34What you will not have heard is the
1:16:35verse immediately before it which
1:16:37exempts anyone who has kept a peace
1:16:39treaty with the Muslims. You will not
1:16:40have heard the verse immediately after
1:16:42it which orders Muslims to grant safe
1:16:44passage to any non-Muslim who asks for
1:16:46it and to escort them to safety. You
1:16:47will not have heard that every major
1:16:50classical commentator on the Quran
1:16:51across 1400 years and every Muslim that
1:16:54actually follows the scripture agrees
1:16:56that the verse was about a very specific
1:16:57group of Arab tribes who had signed a
1:16:59peace agreement with the early Muslim
1:17:00community and then broke it in the
1:17:02middle of war in 17th century Arabia. It
1:17:04is dishonest. [cheering] It is dishonest
1:17:07to stand here. No, let me finish. It is
1:17:09dishonest to stand here and selectively
1:17:11quote and misrepresent and misquote. Let
1:17:13me let me get to the end of my point and
1:17:14I'll get to you. Hey, let me get to the
1:17:16end of my quote and then I'll get to
1:17:17you. Um, let me get to the end of my
1:17:19point and then I'll get to you.
1:17:20>> Information has been declined, Mr. Jones
1:17:21lines.
1:17:22>> It is not and has never been read by the
1:17:24scholarly tradition as a standing order
1:17:25for all Muslims in all centuries against
1:17:27everyone who does not share their faith.
1:17:28It has never been the case. And anyone
1:17:30who says that they follow Islam and have
1:17:32committed those crimes in that name in
1:17:34that verse is a liar and not a follower
1:17:36of our religion. [applause]
1:17:42that verse after he beheaded with me and
1:17:45woman versus wrong that verse just where
1:17:48he don't need to argue with us to argue
1:17:51with let me let me let me I I get I get
1:17:53your I get your point I have just given
1:17:55you the exact quotation from the
1:17:57religious scripture upon which that
1:17:59person claimed to have followed I have
1:18:01shown you that that is not what the
1:18:02verse says let me finish jail I've shown
1:18:04you that that is not what the verse said
1:18:05I have shown you that that is not what
1:18:06the teachings ascribe to us and tell us
1:18:08to follow me if somebody wants to pick
1:18:10out any verse from the from the from the
1:18:12Bible, from the Old Testament, from the
1:18:14Torah, any selective verse, a verse
1:18:16where Moses is discussed killing
1:18:18innocent civilians or Solomon taking up
1:18:20tens of dozens of wives. And then I tell
1:18:23you that that must justify anyone who
1:18:25then claims that that text is referenced
1:18:26to or in in is presented to be a defense
1:18:30of their actions. You would tell me that
1:18:32is unjustified. You would tell me that
1:18:33is not the correct reading of the
1:18:34scripture.
1:18:36[applause]
1:18:38>> Can I
1:18:40I I've accepted a point of information.
1:18:42>> Gentlemen, gentlemen, can I ask you both
1:18:43to take your seats, please?
1:18:45>> Just clarification,
1:18:46>> Mr. Andy.
1:18:48>> Thank you.
1:18:48>> I've accept a point of information.
1:18:50>> Well, can I can I encourage you to make
1:18:52a little progress since we seem to have
1:18:54points on both sides and then perhaps
1:18:56return to the point?
1:18:57>> Yeah, just
1:18:58>> let me let me finish, please.
1:19:00>> No, a point of order having been raised.
1:19:02Mr. Jones lines.
1:19:03>> Can I raise the
1:19:04>> You did raise the
1:19:05>> I asked that people be forbidden as the
1:19:08house for bit from doing in visual
1:19:10photography under
1:19:14>> you will not have heard that.
1:19:16>> Madam President, one moment I will
1:19:17remind those in the chamber
1:19:20that with the exception of those with
1:19:22prior arrangements with the society and
1:19:25the society's own videographers and
1:19:26photographers,
1:19:28>> there is to be no recording in the
1:19:29chamber. There will be one warning given
1:19:31and on the second warning people will be
1:19:33removed.
1:19:34>> The only exceptions are the society's
1:19:35videographers and those that have
1:19:37already arranged recording. Thank you.
1:19:38>> Thank you Matthew.
1:19:40>> This motion is not about non-believers,
1:19:43people who say they believe in Islam but
1:19:45don't actually follow its teachings. It
1:19:46is about Islam and I would urge you all
1:19:48to follow through with that motion with
1:19:49that wording and actually scrutinize the
1:19:52religious teachings for what they
1:19:53actually are and not for what you want
1:19:54them to be to fit your narrative. Let me
1:19:56get to my point. Thank you.
1:19:58You will not have even heard that the
1:20:00verses that you are quoting come from a
1:20:02from from a chapter in the Quran called
1:20:05repentance. Not conquest, not war,
1:20:08repentance. That it is the name the book
1:20:10itself gives to the chapter the
1:20:11proposition will tell you is a manual
1:20:12for killing you.
1:20:14Another claim we have heard tonight from
1:20:16Tommy Robinson is this. Whoever changes
1:20:18his religion kill him from Bkari. That
1:20:22sounds absolute but it is not.
1:20:25The Hanfi school followed by most
1:20:27British Muslims. In fact, most Muslims
1:20:28across the world has long held that this
1:20:30only applies to those who leave Islam
1:20:32and wage war against communities. Wage
1:20:35war.
1:20:36It is not just it is not honest. It is
1:20:39not just and it is not honest to
1:20:40cherrypick quotes and verses. I will get
1:20:42to let me get some progress, please. Let
1:20:44me get to some make some progress,
1:20:45please. And then when it comes to the
1:20:48verse supposedly enabling violence
1:20:49against women, actually let me I'll
1:20:51leave that for you haven't mentioned it
1:20:52so I won't bring it up. But if you were
1:20:55if somebody were to mention the verse on
1:20:57that supposedly enables women violence
1:20:59against women, all that verse is hung on
1:21:02is one word in Arabic which commentators
1:21:05like yourselves have latched on to mean
1:21:07beat them. That word has 20 different
1:21:10meanings in Arabic. Major scholars do
1:21:13not interpret that word to mean the
1:21:15worst and harshest possible
1:21:16interpretation. The prophet himself whom
1:21:18you say we believe is rightful and we
1:21:21must follow in his example said himself
1:21:23that he disliked men who hit their
1:21:24wives. So just preempting any arguments
1:21:27that were put in that direction.
1:21:29Let me let me please finish let me
1:21:31please finish. Yeah. The same pattern
1:21:33shows up with the hadith you mentioned
1:21:35about Aisha and the marriage. the claim
1:21:38that she was six at marriage and nine at
1:21:39consummation. Except what they don't
1:21:41tell you is that the source who provided
1:21:43that recollection is not seen as
1:21:45concretely reliable. That the author of
1:21:47one of the earliest and most revered
1:21:48collections of hadith and Islamic law,
1:21:49Imam Malik, did not accept this
1:21:51narrator's report and that various
1:21:53reconstructions, including from the Yah
1:21:55Institute, put her age as far far older.
1:21:57English common law, however, set the age
1:21:59of consent at 12 until 1875. Canon law
1:22:02permitted marriage from puberty. The
1:22:04marriage practices Mr. Robinson is
1:22:06condemning condemn the whole of preodern
1:22:08civilization including Christian Europe
1:22:09if we were to take his arguments at
1:22:11their highest tonight.
1:22:12>> Point of information.
1:22:13>> Let me get to my speech and I'll be
1:22:14need.
1:22:15>> You haven't taken one point from me. Are
1:22:16you afraid? Um there are still Muslim
1:22:19countries in this world which say that
1:22:22their legal system is based on Sharia
1:22:24which allow the marriage of children
1:22:26because of their belief in those verses.
1:22:28Are you saying they're not Muslims too?
1:22:32[applause]
1:22:34again and I do not understand why it is
1:22:36so difficult for proposition to wrap
1:22:37their heads around this. People can take
1:22:39any text and they can misinterpret it
1:22:41and they can misapply it and they can
1:22:43believe that what they're doing is
1:22:44Islamic latent sit down. They can
1:22:46believe that what they are doing is
1:22:47Islamic and in win accordance with
1:22:49Islamic principles. I am asking you to
1:22:51scrutinize Islam and its teachings. Let
1:22:53me get to its point. The people who
1:22:55misquote, misrepresent and take Islam at
1:22:57its worst and then try and purport that
1:23:00they are Muslims and they are following
1:23:01the teachings of Islam are people you
1:23:02should be suspicious of. I have no
1:23:03doubt. But that is not suspicious of
1:23:05Islam.
1:23:05>> We're too bad our nations.
1:23:07>> Can I can I can I finish please? We are
1:23:10also told Muslims are meant to follow
1:23:11the prophet's example. Fair enough. But
1:23:13then key parts of that example quietly
1:23:15disappear and the arguments presented by
1:23:17Tommy and Lawrence and the rest of this
1:23:18the bench. The constitution of Medina
1:23:21drafted and delivered by the prophet set
1:23:23up a community of Muslims, Jews and
1:23:25pagans living together with mutual
1:23:26obligations and religious freedoms.
1:23:28Quote, the Jews are a community along
1:23:30with the believers. to the Jews their
1:23:32religion to Muslims theirs. It is right
1:23:35there. It is right there. [applause]
1:23:37Another treaty was with the Christians
1:23:39of Yemen protecting their churches and
1:23:41clergy not mentioned anywhere. The
1:23:44prophet's final sermon two months before
1:23:47he died went as such. There is no
1:23:49superiority of an Arab over a non-Arab
1:23:52or a non-Arab over an Arab or a white
1:23:55over a black or a black over a white
1:23:57except in piety. not mentioned anywhere
1:24:00in any OF THE ARGUMENTS THAT YOU ARE
1:24:01GOING TO PRESENT because it does not fit
1:24:03your narrative.
1:24:05Let me I'm going to run out of time.
1:24:06Please bear with me from the Quran's own
1:24:09lines in that chapter that I quoted to
1:24:10you which is called oh disbelievers for
1:24:13you your religion and for me mine.
1:24:15Somehow that does not make the cut.
1:24:17After a while the pattern becomes
1:24:18obvious the case works best when certain
1:24:20texts stay off the page. You can do the
1:24:22exact same thing with other scriptures.
1:24:23Deuteronomy 20, when you take a city,
1:24:25save alive nothing that breathe.
1:24:28Numbers 31, kill all the boys and kill
1:24:30every woman who has slept with a man,
1:24:31but say for yourselves every girl who
1:24:33has not. Let me finish. You can build a
1:24:35very dark picture that way. But that is
1:24:37not how Jews and Christians read their
1:24:39scriptures. I extend that generosity to
1:24:41my Muslim to my Christian brothers and
1:24:43my Jewish brothers and Jewish neighbors.
1:24:44I am simply asking that it be extended
1:24:46tonight to mine. Can I please can I
1:24:48please get through my speech? I will get
1:24:49back to you. So let's actually see
1:24:51because you've said how do people take
1:24:53that religion and that scripture and how
1:24:54do they apply it in their day-to-day
1:24:56lives. I'm not going to deny that there
1:24:57are people who try to understand that
1:25:00fail and try to use that as a cover up
1:25:02for atrocious and abhorn actions. Those
1:25:04are not Muslims laten for God's sake. So
1:25:08let's see how those religious teachings
1:25:09translate into actual Muslim attitudes.
1:25:12OPM last year 85% of British Muslims
1:25:15back democracy as the best system of
1:25:16government. The general public, 71%. 94%
1:25:21back equal treatment under the law for
1:25:22all faiths and none. The general public,
1:25:2480%. 7 and 10 say they feel loyal to the
1:25:27United Kingdom. The general public, one
1:25:29in two.
1:25:31Eight in 10 interact with non-Muslims at
1:25:33least weekly. Nine and 10 say standing
1:25:35against bigotry, including
1:25:36anti-semitism, matters to them. Four in
1:25:3810 have served themselves or through
1:25:39family in public service. On every
1:25:41single one of those me measures, British
1:25:43Muslims are more committed to British
1:25:45values than the British average.
1:25:50[applause]
1:25:52These are not numbers from a community
1:25:54at war with this country. These are
1:25:55numbers from a community holding the
1:25:57line on the values this country claims
1:25:59to believe in. While the proposition
1:26:01tells you we are a threat to them. And
1:26:03exactly the same pattern shows up when
1:26:04we turn from opinion poll to crime
1:26:06statistics. The story you are being sold
1:26:08about Muslim crime looks very different
1:26:09once you see the whole pictures,
1:26:10including, for example, grooming gangs.
1:26:12And please do bear with me. I've been
1:26:13interrupted for quite a bit.
1:26:15For the grooming gangs, the abuse
1:26:17happened. The girls were real. The
1:26:18failures were real. I will not minimize
1:26:20any of it. And as a Muslim woman, I am
1:26:22not here to do so. In Rotherdam, Rodale,
1:26:23Telford, the offender public profiles on
1:26:25the headlines were dominated by British
1:26:27Pakistani Muslim men. That is true. That
1:26:28must be spoken about. But there is
1:26:30another truth that must be named
1:26:31alongside it. Those girls were working
1:26:33class. working-class girls in towns that
1:26:35had already been told their problems did
1:26:37not matter. Failed by police officers
1:26:38who did not come. Councils who looked
1:26:40away, institutions that decided their
1:26:41suffering was not worth the paperwork.
1:26:43Class contempt is what allowed this to
1:26:44continue for decades. And no girl, no
1:26:46working-class girl, no girl of any
1:26:48background should ever have to learn
1:26:49that her pain is an administrative
1:26:51inconvenience. What Mr. Robinson never
1:26:53shows you and what the rest of the bench
1:26:54will never tell talk to you about is
1:26:56that 81% of child-based sexual offenses
1:26:58were most commonly committed by white
1:27:00men. The government's own 2020 review of
1:27:03group based child sexual exploitation
1:27:04said two things very clearly. First,
1:27:06that group based child sexual
1:27:08exploitation offenders, let me please
1:27:09land, are most commonly white. I'm
1:27:11getting to that point. And second, that
1:27:12the data are too poor poor to show that
1:27:14any ethnic group is uniquely predisposed
1:27:16to offending or overrepresented as
1:27:17perpetrators. That answers your point. I
1:27:19hope you heard it. In other words, there
1:27:20is no evidence that so-called grooming
1:27:22gangs involving Muslim men are
1:27:23disproportionate once you step back and
1:27:25look at the whole picture rather than a
1:27:27handful of high-profile cases. totally
1:27:30take it to in groups of men.
1:27:32>> I didn't take it. Please go ahead. But
1:27:34please stop time
1:27:37groups of men. So there's two different
1:27:38types of people there. There's
1:27:40individual government which you said was
1:27:4181% white. The country got 87% white. So
1:27:44men over represented. Point is Pakistani
1:27:46men make
1:27:48>> under under a conservative under a
1:27:49conservative. No. Because you made your
1:27:51point. You made a point. You've made
1:27:52your point. You've made your point and
1:27:53I've heard it. You made your point and
1:27:54I've heard it and I've asked I asked I
1:27:55asked you Mr.
1:27:56>> Robinson. Can I ask you to take your
1:27:57seat again please? Thank you. Okay.
1:28:02>> A conservative government inquiry into
1:28:05can I please a conservative government
1:28:07inquiry into the proportion of grooming
1:28:10gang related crimes committed by all
1:28:12groups by all groups found found
1:28:14>> Mr. Robinson Mr. Robinson I must ask you
1:28:15to take your seat. The point has been
1:28:16taken. The president is responding.
1:28:20>> Please do check the facts after this.
1:28:21Everyone here in the chamber is more
1:28:22than welcome to do so. I'm asking I'm
1:28:24asking I'm asking for two more minutes
1:28:25if you'll allow me that.
1:28:28There are some other facts that the
1:28:30proposition will not give you. The first
1:28:32that Muslims were among the dead in
1:28:33terrorist attacks supposedly committed
1:28:35under the name of Islam. Muslims were
1:28:36among the doctors who treated the
1:28:37wounded. The paramedics who ran towards
1:28:39the smoke. The first respondents who
1:28:40held the dying the proposition asked you
1:28:42to condemn a community it will not
1:28:43acknowledge was also grieving. The
1:28:45second that Muslims are
1:28:46disproportionately represented among
1:28:47those who flag concerns to counter
1:28:49terror programs. It is Muslim mothers
1:28:51who call the hotline. Muslim fathers who
1:28:53sit with police officers and say that
1:28:54something is wrong. The community the
1:28:56proposition frames as a threat is in
1:28:58practice one of our most reliable lines
1:29:00of defense. And then there's what the
1:29:02proposition will not say at all. In
1:29:042019, a man walked into two mosques in
1:29:06Christ Church during Friday prayers and
1:29:07murdered 51 Muslims. Among them a
1:29:09three-year-old boy his manifesto named
1:29:10Mr. Robinson directly. It thanked him.
1:29:14If we are tallying the dead tonight and
1:29:15the proposition has made very clear that
1:29:17we are, then the dead of the Christ
1:29:19Church belong on that tally too.
1:29:20>> What he said?
1:29:22>> He thanks you on on the card. I haven't
1:29:25>> Mr. Robinson. Mr. Robinson, please.
1:29:27Thank you.
1:29:27>> Suspicion of Muslims as a category has
1:29:29also been tried as a policy. Over 83,000
1:29:31men from 25 mainly Muslim majority
1:29:32countries were forced to register with
1:29:33US authorities under special
1:29:34registration. More than 13,000 were put
1:29:37into deport deportation proceedings. The
1:29:39number of terrorism convictions produced
1:29:41was zero. In the United Kingdom between
1:29:442001 and 2011, fewer than 1% of
1:29:46terrorism related arrests resulted in a
1:29:48conviction for a terrorism offense. It
1:29:50broke up thousands of families and
1:29:51consumed billions in resources, catching
1:29:53almost nothing. That is what suspicion
1:29:54of an entire community of an entire
1:29:56category of people gets you. Nothing.
1:30:02I'm going to skip over to my ending.
1:30:05So when the proposition tells you that
1:30:06more suspicion makes Britain safer, I
1:30:08would like to ask them to look at the
1:30:10record, not the theory, the record, and
1:30:12look too at who they are telling you to
1:30:14trust. And this is important because
1:30:17these are the people who are advocating
1:30:18for these points most. And it is
1:30:20important to know where they come from.
1:30:22In 2018, Mr. Robinson published videos
1:30:24claiming that Jamal Hijazi, a Syrian
1:30:25refugee school boy in Huttersfield whose
1:30:27assault on a playground had gone viral,
1:30:28was himself a violent bully. In fact,
1:30:31the video showed him being throttled and
1:30:32waterboarded by other people. Please
1:30:34give me a minute. Mr. Hijazi sued for
1:30:36liel. Mr. Justice Nicholan found Mr.
1:30:38Robinson's allegations were fake and
1:30:40highly defamatory and ordered him to pay
1:30:41£100,000 in damages. He did not go to
1:30:44prison for telling the truth about
1:30:45Muslim grooming gangs. He went to prison
1:30:46for lying about a vulnerable refugee
1:30:48child. Let me finish. Let me finish. Let
1:30:49me finish. Let me finish.
1:30:51>> [applause]
1:30:54>> Each generation of British Muslims is
1:30:56more educated, more politically engaged,
1:30:58more invested in this country's future.
1:31:00There are serious issues within some
1:31:01Muslim communities. And some of the most
1:31:03courageous people fighting those battles
1:31:04are Muslim women doing it quietly
1:31:07without a platform, without a hedge fund
1:31:08manager paying their legal fees. So, let
1:31:10me end where I began with my faith and
1:31:12with this country. The prophet Muhammad
1:31:14hosted the Christians of Najan in his
1:31:16own mosque and invited them to pray
1:31:18there after debating them on a religion
1:31:19that they ultimately did not pick up.
1:31:21They did not convert to Islam. He
1:31:23guaranteed the Jews of Medina the
1:31:25protection of their religion and their
1:31:26descent. The book I believe to be the
1:31:28word of God says in plain Arabic, there
1:31:30is no compulsion in religion. For you
1:31:33your religion and for me mine. That is
1:31:35the tradition that built me. That is the
1:31:36tradition that proposition is asking you
1:31:38to declare suspect. Free speech and
1:31:40debate is not something I do despite
1:31:42being a Muslim. It is something I do
1:31:43because of it. [applause]
1:31:46Hold on a second.
1:31:49So, so, so when I, so when I defend, so
1:31:52when I defend your right to read from my
1:31:54holy book in a voice dripping with
1:31:55contempt and contempt, when I sit
1:31:57through speeches calling my faith a
1:31:58danger and rise to them with evidence
1:32:00rather than Brit, I'm not betraying my
1:32:02religion. I am practicing it. Have the
1:32:03team that built this debate are Muslim
1:32:05women. Do not let anyone sell you a
1:32:08false England, an England that was pure
1:32:09until the day your Muslim neighbor moved
1:32:11in. That England never existed. The real
1:32:13England is messier. It's kinder. It's
1:32:15more mixed. It is England where a Syrian
1:32:17school boy in a school playground
1:32:18deserves protection from lies. Where
1:32:20four young people in Filton can oppose a
1:32:22weapons factory without being branded as
1:32:23terrorists. Where a Muslim girl can go
1:32:25to class without being treated as
1:32:26suspect. These that England is still
1:32:28here. It is worth fighting for. So look
1:32:30at who is on which side of this argument
1:32:32tonight. Look at who is defending free
1:32:33speech and who is suing journalists.
1:32:36Look at who only a week ago was in his
1:32:38abode in Spain telling you that
1:32:39immigrants are the problem. And ask
1:32:42yourself the only question this motion
1:32:43has ever really cared about. Not whether
1:32:44Islam is a danger to the west, but
1:32:46whether a handful of rich men get to
1:32:48convince you that your own neighbors are
1:32:50your enemy. Vote against this motion. My
1:32:53faith has survived empires. It will
1:32:54survive this evening. Vote against it to
1:32:57protect what is best in your own
1:32:58tradition. the right of every person in
1:32:59this country to be seen as a human being
1:33:02before they are seen as a category.
1:33:06They are not trying to fix this country.
1:33:08They are trying to own it. Do not let
1:33:10them own your anger or your England. We
1:33:12not we are not and we never were your
1:33:14enemy.
1:33:17[applause]
1:33:21[applause]
1:33:24Billions, you made many accusations at
1:33:26the end about being there.60 167 million
1:33:29people watching my documentary. They
1:33:30know I say you probably probably not
1:33:33selling your friend anyway. Did you
1:33:35watch the film? Did you watch the
1:33:36documentary?
1:33:37>> No, but I read about the legal
1:33:38proceedings.
1:33:38>> Okay. Did you watch the documentary?
1:33:41>> I read about the legal proceedings. I I
1:33:43read about the legal proceedings.
1:33:44>> I haven't seen the truth.
1:33:44>> So you distrust the court.
1:33:46>> You distrust one of the institutions.
1:33:48Madam
1:33:49>> President
1:33:52order. Thank you. Thank you, Madam
1:33:55President. I think I think if I can ask
1:33:57you to take your seat, Mr. Robinson, if
1:33:59I can ask you to take yours and I call
1:34:00upon Mr. Jonathan Sacredati to continue
1:34:02the case for the proposition.
1:34:10>> Thank you. Well, it's very uh good to be
1:34:13back in the Oxford Union. Um,
1:34:17I just want to take up a few points that
1:34:19we've heard from the other side, which
1:34:22is really their strongest argument
1:34:24appears to be that anybody that's done
1:34:26something bad in the name of Islam
1:34:28actually wasn't really Muslim or wasn't
1:34:32really carrying out the true scripture
1:34:35of Islam. Uh, and indeed they are
1:34:37non-believers, but even those people
1:34:39Islam has some pretty vile treatments in
1:34:42store for. So on that basis alone for
1:34:44non-believers of Islam I would query uh
1:34:47whether or not we should be suspicious
1:34:49of it and and I I must say again I must
1:34:51echo the thanks to the president for her
1:34:53hospitality in bringing us here tonight.
1:34:55I have admiration for her holding this
1:34:57debate. Um she was also a wonderful host
1:34:59at the dinner last time they sat me
1:35:01almost outside. Um but she had me on the
1:35:04high table. Indeed she offered me some
1:35:06wine. Um but I thought that Allah had
1:35:08cursed wine. its drinker, its server,
1:35:10its seller, its buyer, its presser, uh,
1:35:12and the one for whom it's pressed, the
1:35:14one who carries it, and the one to whom
1:35:17it is carried. So, I hope that she still
1:35:19counts as a Muslim, given that her
1:35:21version of Islam is one that sounded
1:35:23much nicer than the one that many of us
1:35:25are familiar with. 5 minutes before
1:35:28Salman Aed detonated his bomb, killing
1:35:3122 people at an Ariana Grande concert in
1:35:35Manchester Arena, he was spotted by Kyle
1:35:38Lawler, an 18-year-old security guard.
1:35:41And after the bombing, Kyle told the
1:35:43Inquiry, "I just had a bad feeling about
1:35:45him." Kyle had been suspicious,
1:35:49but he didn't act. He didn't raise the
1:35:51alarm. Why? Here's what he said. I felt
1:35:55unsure about what to do. That's what he
1:35:57told the inquiry. I'm being branded a
1:36:00racist. It made me hesitant.
1:36:0322 people were killed.
1:36:06This is a lesson in ignoring suspicion.
1:36:09And it's one that the West needs to
1:36:11learn urgently. No thank you. I've had
1:36:14phone calls this week from friends,
1:36:16family, colleagues. Some called to
1:36:19praise me for my courage, others to
1:36:21question my sanity for coming back here.
1:36:23and one or two who begged me not to
1:36:25speak with you tonight. Why?
1:36:29In what way does it take courage to come
1:36:31and speak at a student debating society?
1:36:33Why would it be foolish for my safety
1:36:37to debate at the invitation of a Muslim
1:36:39woman with two Muslim men and a mock
1:36:43Victorian Catholic knight? We all know
1:36:46why.
1:36:48>> Which is mock?
1:36:50>> Well, the Victorian
1:36:54We all know why. It's why there's quite
1:36:57a lot of security here. It's why there's
1:36:59a bit of electricity in the air. It's
1:37:02why this debate generated news coverage
1:37:05before it even happened. It is because
1:37:08of Islam. Now, I'm not a Muslim for the
1:37:10purposes of full disclosure. I'm a Jew
1:37:13and a Britain. So, I'm not here to speak
1:37:16for Muslims and what individual Muslims
1:37:18do or don't think or feel or believe.
1:37:22I'm not here to argue over Quranic
1:37:24verses and hadith. I'm here tonight to
1:37:27represent the other side of this debate,
1:37:29Western values. I'm here to talk about
1:37:33how Islam has encroached on our lives.
1:37:38I would love not to be here, especially
1:37:41at this time. I would love never to talk
1:37:44about this topic again, never to talk
1:37:46about Islam. It's not my faith. It's not
1:37:50my ideology
1:37:52but over and over again it has
1:37:55confronted me coming for my life for
1:37:59your lives.
1:38:01I am not motivated by hate. Whatever
1:38:03those people outside say the only person
1:38:06in this debate who has made physical
1:38:08threats was over there.
1:38:10>> Here.
1:38:12>> No thank you. I am motivated by love.
1:38:16Love for freedom. Love for life. love
1:38:19for debate, for discussion, love for the
1:38:22West. The West is a civilization of
1:38:25defiant liberty and fearless
1:38:27truthtelling. And that is why I'm here
1:38:30now. Now, I often ask people what their
1:38:33first conscious memory of Islam was. For
1:38:36me, it was as a child of eight or nine
1:38:38when Salman Rushi published the Satanic
1:38:40Verses.
1:38:42What followed was a global eruption of
1:38:45Islamic fury, book burnings in the
1:38:48streets, a death fatwa from Ayatolla
1:38:51Kummeni, and a trail of terror that
1:38:53crossed decades and borders. My own
1:38:56father, a book seller who believed in
1:38:59the fundamental western right to read
1:39:00and write even offensive ideas, was
1:39:03forced to sell copies from behind the
1:39:05counter for fear of his own life.
1:39:09Translators were stabbed. publishers
1:39:12shot.
1:39:14And over 30 years later, in 2022, a
1:39:17young Muslim assassin, Hadi Matar,
1:39:20nearly murdered the elderly Rashi on
1:39:23stage in New York, blinding him in one
1:39:25eye because he wrote a story.
1:39:31Yet in the face of this medieval
1:39:34intolerance, Rashi struck back with the
1:39:37West's greatest weapons,
1:39:40his pen and his mind. Writing a new
1:39:44book, Knife. He fought violence with
1:39:48art. Western
1:39:51They fought art with violence. Islamic.
1:39:58But you don't need to be a writer to
1:40:00have suffered the violent intrusion of
1:40:03Islam into your life. On September the
1:40:0611th, 2001, 19 hijackers cried, "Allah
1:40:10Akbar!" as they murdered nearly 3,000
1:40:13people in the name of Islam, flying
1:40:16planes into the Twin Towers. On the 7th
1:40:19of July 2005, four British Muslim
1:40:22suicide bombers slaughtered 52 commuters
1:40:26on London's tube and a bus, declaring,
1:40:28"We are at war and I am a soldier." In
1:40:332013, Michael Adabilio beheaded the
1:40:36young British soldier Lee Rigby in broad
1:40:40daylight on a Wulich street and then
1:40:42proudly told police and cameras, his
1:40:44hands dripping in blood, "I'm a soldier
1:40:47of Allah." Theo Van Go stabbed, shot,
1:40:51nearly decapitated in Amsterdam for
1:40:53criticizing Islam. his killer pinned a
1:40:57note to the body declaring it was done
1:41:00quote by the law that commands me to cut
1:41:03off the head of anyone who insults Allah
1:41:06and his prophet.
1:41:09>> Can you give me examples from the
1:41:10scripture directly in context properly
1:41:14that would advise or point to the
1:41:16actions of any of these specific people?
1:41:19>> This is the crux of this point. I don't
1:41:21need to give you those examples because
1:41:23all of these men who slaughtered
1:41:25westerners, who slaughtered other
1:41:27Muslims, gave their quotes from your
1:41:30holy book. Ayanne Hi Ali, no thank you,
1:41:33who worked with Van Go. She's lived with
1:41:35roundthe-clock protection ever since.
1:41:38She was a Muslim who committed the crime
1:41:41of leaving that faith and criticizing
1:41:43it. Are you starting to see the pattern
1:41:46yet? In 2006, Ilan Haleimi, a French
1:41:50Jew, was kidnapped, tortured for 24
1:41:52days, and burnt alive by a gang who
1:41:55shouted, "Guess what? Allah Akbar."
1:41:58A rabbi and three small Jewish children
1:42:01gunned down at a school in Tulus.
1:42:03A kosher supermarket in Paris. Four Jews
1:42:07executed.
1:42:08A teacher at Batley Grammar School here,
1:42:11hounded into hiding by Muslim mobs
1:42:15baying for his death for showing a
1:42:17cartoon.
1:42:21Charlie Ebdo, Three Gay Friends in
1:42:24Wedding, David Amos, MP. Streatham,
1:42:27London Bridge, Westminster Bridge,
1:42:29Parson's Green, Manchester Victoria
1:42:31station. journalists, gay men, Jews,
1:42:34MPs, commuters, police, ordinary
1:42:37citizens. The list goes on and on.
1:42:41Dishonest people will tell you that this
1:42:44is not Islam, but extremism. Extreme
1:42:46what? Extreme Janism, extreme Quakerism.
1:42:50The two converts to Islam opposite
1:42:54cannot deny that those killers were
1:42:55Muslim following their Islamic beliefs.
1:42:59They said it themselves. The list of
1:43:01Islamic contributions to our western
1:43:03life demonstrates that human cost, the
1:43:07human cost that makes people in here
1:43:10afraid to even talk about Islam. That's
1:43:13why we're suspicious of Islam.
1:43:17[applause]
1:43:19And don't worry, I know that Islam is
1:43:20not all violence. It's also political.
1:43:23In 1928, Hassan Albana founded the
1:43:25Muslim Brotherhood, a disciplined
1:43:27movement to reverse the fading of
1:43:29traditional Islamic life in Egypt.
1:43:32Building an entire alternative Islamic
1:43:35society. I I have another couple of
1:43:37pages which I hope you'll give me the
1:43:39courtesy of. Building an is an entire
1:43:42Islamic society, mosques, schools,
1:43:44charities, youth groups, businesses,
1:43:47institutions, which they then spread to
1:43:49the west. And their devised strategy was
1:43:53one of patient Islamic transformation
1:43:55from within. A civilizational jihad.
1:43:59Don't worry, that is not a far-right
1:44:01name made up by Tommy Robinson or me.
1:44:04That's actually what they called it. And
1:44:06we know that because the FBI seized
1:44:08their 1991 explanatory memorandum
1:44:11setting out the plan to settle in the
1:44:13West, build Islamic centers as bases,
1:44:16infiltrate institutions, and work until,
1:44:19quote, Allah's religion is made
1:44:21victorious over all other religions.
1:44:25>> No, thank you. Nearly a century later,
1:44:27they are widely accepted across Europe
1:44:29and in the US and much of the West as a
1:44:32dangerous threat to democracy.
1:44:36So Islam doesn't only attack with bombs.
1:44:39Sometimes it uses our own freedoms and
1:44:41our own land and our own institutions
1:44:43against us.
1:44:45And Islam's ambition to spread is not
1:44:47always so subtle. Historically, Islam is
1:44:50an ideology of conquest and
1:44:52expansionism. After Muhammad's death in
1:44:54632, its armies burst out of Arabia and
1:44:59within a century conquered much of the
1:45:01ancient Christian world, the Middle
1:45:03East, North Africa, Egypt, Syria. They
1:45:07pushed into Spain, alandelooi, where's
1:45:10that name from? They reached France,
1:45:12halted at tours in 732.
1:45:16>> Yes.
1:45:17>> Reminded what happened in 1492.
1:45:21>> Thank you for the reminder. um
1:45:23>> noted that the Muslims were expelled
1:45:25along the Jews from Spain by Christians.
1:45:28>> They were indeed.
1:45:28>> These sorts of wrongs have happened
1:45:30between all religions [snorts]
1:45:31throughout history
1:45:32>> and 14th century for sorry, excuse me.
1:45:35Absolutely. And and if you would like to
1:45:36invite me uh back uh Sir Reese Moog, I
1:45:40would be delighted to debate your
1:45:41religion and your faith and the wrongs
1:45:43that it has done my people as well. But
1:45:45that is for another evening.
1:45:52Wherever they've conquered, Jews and
1:45:54Christians were reduced to demies,
1:45:56defeated peoples living under
1:45:59submission, tax, and Islamic supremacy.
1:46:02Because at Islam's core is political,
1:46:05theological dominance, not private
1:46:08internal faith. They may try to hide it,
1:46:11but it is written in blood across the
1:46:14centuries until today. For every other
1:46:18ideology, we can be proud of the
1:46:20positives and still suspicious of the
1:46:23negatives. But some people are so quick
1:46:25to list all the great things they say
1:46:27Islam's contributed. The second speaker
1:46:29that he gave some money once to an old
1:46:31man who was in need. But they utterly
1:46:33reject any Islamic connection to all the
1:46:36dreadful things that I've mentioned
1:46:39tonight. The bits they like, those are
1:46:41all Islam. But the bits they don't like,
1:46:43well, not Islam. totally binary in an
1:46:46era when being non-binary is all the
1:46:49rage.
1:46:52Everything today is on a spectrum except
1:46:55Islam.
1:46:57So, I'm asking you to believe your own
1:47:00eyes, to accept your own survival
1:47:03instincts, apply the same rational
1:47:05thoughts to Islam that you would and
1:47:07should to any other set of ideas and
1:47:10behaviors. Kyle Lawler, that Manchester
1:47:13Arena security guard, will live forever
1:47:17with the heavy weight of ignoring his
1:47:20suspicion.
1:47:22Don't be Kyle Lawler. Don't be afraid to
1:47:25call out an urgent danger
1:47:28that you instinctively identify just
1:47:32because you're afraid.
1:47:34What we have in the West is worth
1:47:37protecting. our freedoms, our culture,
1:47:40our ethics, this university, this
1:47:43country, all of it. And it can compete,
1:47:45it can win. But only if you stay
1:47:49curious, stay intelligent,
1:47:52stay suspicious, especially of Islam.
1:47:57[applause]
1:48:02I thank the honorable gentleman for his
1:48:03speech advancing the proposition. And I
1:48:05call upon Abdullah an andi to advance
1:48:08the case for the opposition.
1:48:28Thank you.
1:48:37Greetings to you all. Assalamu alaykum.
1:48:40Peace be with you. Pax for Biscum to the
1:48:43Catholics. Ladies and gentlemen,
1:48:46um Mr. President, [laughter]
1:48:49>> not quite yet.
1:48:50>> Yeah.
1:48:52Members of Oxford Union, friends, I know
1:48:54you're tired after a long debate. I'll
1:48:57try to bring some clarity to a lot of
1:48:59these discussions. Unfortunately, as
1:49:01Brandolini's law states, it takes a
1:49:03disproportionate amount of time to
1:49:04explain something that is false, which
1:49:06was said in a few words. So, I'll try to
1:49:09cover as much as possible. My background
1:49:12is Portuguese,
1:49:14so uh I might have unpatriotic thoughts
1:49:17when it comes to the World Cup for
1:49:19Portugal, but I will say that uh my
1:49:23background is actually more fascinating
1:49:24than this. Uh from my mother's side of
1:49:26the family, I discovered that we descend
1:49:28from a Jewish family uh that was a
1:49:31couple centuries ago persuaded to be
1:49:34Catholic and wasn't able to escape uh
1:49:38Spain. uh and if they were trying to
1:49:42hide their faith, there was the
1:49:43Portuguese Inquisition around to give
1:49:46some very sharp arguments. Now, I know
1:49:49you you're thinking, "The Portuguese had
1:49:52an Inquisition." Yes, no one expects the
1:49:55Portuguese Inquisition.
1:49:58So, this title is a funny one, and I'm
1:50:00going to try to deal with as many points
1:50:02as possible. I think that if we looked
1:50:05at
1:50:07uh Hermit Ebing, the German member of
1:50:11the Free Democratic Party who argued
1:50:14when he was found with child photos that
1:50:16if he was prosecuted publicly, it would
1:50:19be it would increase anti-semitism and
1:50:21his sentence was reduced.
1:50:24Uh Tom Arton Alexandraich
1:50:28again someone caught in Las Vegas left
1:50:31to Israel and very quietly allowed to
1:50:33escape bail and of course well Jeffrey
1:50:37Epstein Weinstein if we said wait a
1:50:39second what do they all have in common
1:50:42should we stop being suspicious of what
1:50:44they all have in common you'd say that's
1:50:48anti-semitic
1:50:49and rightly so could we not extend
1:50:52perhaps the same latitude to criminals
1:50:56in every other community on planet
1:50:58Earth, please.
1:51:00>> Uh none of those people used the Torah
1:51:02to justify sexual abuse, for example, or
1:51:05any of those things because it's not in
1:51:06there. Uh they did it because they're
1:51:08bad people.
1:51:10>> Uh some actually that there's been some
1:51:13quirky rabbis, not actually part of the
1:51:15mainstream, but have argued for
1:51:17permissibility to have sexual uh
1:51:20relations with a child over 3 years old.
1:51:23Uh would we say oh that means that all
1:51:25Jews are allowed to do that and that
1:51:27it's allowed for Jews? No it's not
1:51:28right. So anyone as this as the saying
1:51:30goes by Shakespeare the devil can quote
1:51:32scripture. Okay.
1:51:36Well I'm going to go into pay patience.
1:51:39>> Gentlemen gentlemen can I remind you of
1:51:40the forms of the house. Please
1:51:42>> I think I've made him a little irate.
1:51:43It's okay. Please just uh No, I'm I'm
1:51:46trying to talk about the
1:51:48>> Can I ask you to please refrain from
1:51:50interrupting the speaker? We have
1:51:51discussed the forms of the house. If you
1:51:53wish to make a point of information,
1:51:55please rise and do so. Otherwise, please
1:51:57allow the speaker to continue. Thank
1:51:58you.
1:52:00>> So, um, let's discuss as many things as
1:52:03possible, and I'm going to speed up a
1:52:04little bit. So, people talk about what
1:52:06ISIS did to Yazidis. Where were the
1:52:08Yazidis, by the way, or in the Middle
1:52:09East? For for how long? Uh, 1,400 years.
1:52:13And who were their neighbors for 1,400
1:52:15years? Muslims. So if the Muslims only
1:52:17after 1,400 years said, "Wait a second,
1:52:20those look a bit funny. You see these,
1:52:23let's persecute them and kill them."
1:52:25That's how ridiculous the argument is.
1:52:27You know, I find it a shame that people
1:52:30only realized, despite all the rhetoric,
1:52:32that Iran wants to kill all Jews. That
1:52:34the only re the only time, wait a
1:52:36second, the only time we realized that
1:52:37Jews were actually in Iran was when
1:52:39Israel blew up a synagogue in Tehran.
1:52:42Tehran has 30 synagogues, by the way.
1:52:446,000 Jews live in Tehran. Um, other
1:52:49issues. Let's see if I can go even
1:52:51quicker.
1:52:53The the Quran, okay, the Quran says very
1:52:56clearly there's no compulsion in
1:52:59religion. It has not there's actually
1:53:01four mentions of the word compulsion in
1:53:03the Quran and every single one it's
1:53:06always not to compel. Every single one.
1:53:09There's another verse that's not out
1:53:10that's not mentioned. One one second.
1:53:12There's another verse that's not
1:53:13mentioned. um often which is it said uh
1:53:16if God so willed he would have created
1:53:18the whole world following one religion
1:53:21so if that's the case who are you to
1:53:23compel when basically religion should be
1:53:26only for God i.e. God decides who is
1:53:29guided and who is not. That's not a
1:53:30verse of the Quran, right? We're not
1:53:33allowed to compel anyone to become
1:53:35Muslim.
1:53:37But also uh
1:53:40>> Sure.
1:53:40>> Why can't you buy?
1:53:43>> Well, you can if you probably say I'm
1:53:44not sure about Riyad, but in Pakistan,
1:53:46which is an Islamic Republic, you can
1:53:48just say you're Christian and you get
1:53:50you get beer, right? That's the point is
1:53:53that uh let's pick the worst country we
1:53:55can find out of 50 countries and judge
1:53:58all Muslims by it when the vast majority
1:54:00clearly go against your argument.
1:54:04Um [clears throat] oh yes it was said
1:54:07doesn't Islam say you must kill gays
1:54:10people who are homosexual no it doesn't
1:54:13not in a single verse not in a single
1:54:15hadith please tell me how many gays did
1:54:18the prophet Muhammad kill then? Can you
1:54:20Why are you silent now?
1:54:22>> Right. How many How many gays did he
1:54:25kill?
1:54:25>> Um does the Quran actually not preach
1:54:27death for people who engage in
1:54:29homosexual sexual acts?
1:54:31>> The Quran doesn't say does the Quran
1:54:33actually doesn't talk about that. It
1:54:34talks about um people who have sex
1:54:36outside of marriage. But the point is,
1:54:38let me let me let me correct you. So
1:54:41there like look, I know you're getting
1:54:43anxious, but like please uh let me
1:54:45finish my point, sir. You know, freedom
1:54:47of speech.
1:54:49So
1:54:51um so the let me
1:54:53>> you said your frequency so
1:54:56>> sorry
1:54:56>> you keep saying
1:54:57>> yeah but you have to let me speak first
1:54:58and then I can give way to you I haven't
1:55:00even started speaking sir okay
1:55:04>> all right um I think you have to judge
1:55:06you have to judge religion based on uh
1:55:08on the teachings on the text because
1:55:10that's where the religion comes from if
1:55:12we judged religion or any moral ideology
1:55:16or belief system by the its adherence we
1:55:19would basically condemn all morality in
1:55:21humanity at all because it's always
1:55:22criminals always someone that are
1:55:24self-centered despite their highminded
1:55:27claims.
1:55:28Um also the laws that do exist on some
1:55:32of the the books in Muslim world
1:55:33unfortunately were taken from somewhere.
1:55:36The idea of the homosexual was invented
1:55:37in the 19th century as in the the the
1:55:40idea that you should classify people by
1:55:41sexuality, homosexuality um
1:55:43heterosexuality and so on. Craft von
1:55:46Ebbing was the person and then the
1:55:48Victorians developed an idea that you
1:55:49should be intolerant about these people.
1:55:50It was a mental disease and then they
1:55:52imported it or exported it into the
1:55:54Muslim world when we never had the
1:55:56concept of the heterosexual, bisexual,
1:55:58homosexual. Everyone was just people,
1:56:01right? So, and then we're blamed for
1:56:04basically adopting an older version of
1:56:06the West. We have to update to West 2.0
1:56:08and we're being blamed for still on West
1:56:101.0. I I would argue we should be in
1:56:12West 0.0, zero. But it's because uh in
1:56:15Islam, we didn't have such persecutions
1:56:19that the West encountered. Um let me
1:56:22just let me finish and then I'll take
1:56:23it. I'll take it in a second. I'll take
1:56:24it in a second.
1:56:25>> Point your invasion.
1:56:26>> All right. I'll take it in a second. Are
1:56:27you accepted?
1:56:28>> Sorry, gentlemen. He said he'll take one
1:56:30in a moment. Please allow him to
1:56:31continue. Thank you.
1:56:34So basically, if the Muslim world
1:56:36doesn't uh uh accept the forcefully
1:56:39imposed ideas and concepts from from the
1:56:41west, we're somehow being in tolerant of
1:56:43the West. That's kind of how you've been
1:56:45standing throughout this entire
1:56:46discussion today. Actually, um I think
1:56:48uh the second thing is Sharia can't be
1:56:51imposed on non-Muslims. The Quran says
1:56:55regards those Jews and Christians was
1:56:57Jews coming to the prophet Muhammad to
1:56:59seek his judgment and then they didn't
1:57:01accept it. So what does the Quran say?
1:57:02If they don't accept it, then turn away
1:57:04from them. Say you go judge by your own
1:57:05book. It says judge. The people of the
1:57:08book should judge by their own book.
1:57:10It's actually in the Quran. Okay, I take
1:57:11it one.
1:57:12>> So few points. There's more actions for
1:57:14the So what?
1:57:16>> Mr. Jones Lions. Mr. Jones Lions, please
1:57:19sit down. Thank you. Mr. Jones Lions,
1:57:21please sit down. Thank you very much.
1:57:25>> Okay, if I if I may continue. Um
1:57:30look, you know, um I the thing is one of
1:57:33the issues that as Muslims face is that
1:57:35we are constantly on trial for our own
1:57:38existence.
1:57:40Like the stakes today is not an academic
1:57:43uh stake. The stakes are something much
1:57:46greater because these people have
1:57:47proposed certain policies uh such as you
1:57:50know religious tests and ethnic
1:57:52cleansing. Sorry, remigration. Sorry. um
1:57:57as and this is the this is the threat
1:57:59that is basically upon a religious
1:58:02minority in the west. We we we're
1:58:05constantly in judgment.
1:58:07>> A point of order has been raised. Mr.
1:58:08Fox,
1:58:09>> you who is advocating for ethnic
1:58:12cleansing here
1:58:13>> at any point this evening if the whole
1:58:16point of having a decent debate is in
1:58:18good faith.
1:58:18>> This is a point of order or point of
1:58:20information.
1:58:20>> Mr. Fox, I hear I hear I hear your point
1:58:22of order. I hear your I hear your point
1:58:25of order. Anna Lucy, could I ask you to
1:58:28clarify who has advocated for ethnic
1:58:29cleansing?
1:58:31>> Uh oh. Um
1:58:34>> uh Britain first members I've
1:58:36encountered
1:58:38the people you're mentioning are not of
1:58:40this debate.
1:58:40>> Some of some of the some of the friends
1:58:42of of which I will bring.
1:58:44>> Mr. Lee, I must ask you to withdraw the
1:58:46remark as it relates to the opposition
1:58:47bench simply because the people that
1:58:50you're citing are not at this debate.
1:58:52Are you able to say that any of the
1:58:53gentlemen once have made that comment?
1:58:55>> Oh, that's fine. I retract. I'll say me
1:58:57me me me me me me me me me me me me me
1:58:57me me me me me me members of the far
1:58:58right [applause]
1:59:02members
1:59:03uh members of the far right um for
1:59:06example there was a case where uh a
1:59:09black person attended the a uh with the
1:59:10United Kingdom march there was Britain
1:59:12first guy there the the guy was there to
1:59:14support it and Britain first said it's
1:59:15good we'll get rid of the bad migrants
1:59:17first and we'll save the good ones for
1:59:20last basically if I if I if if I
1:59:22remember anyway um well there's a video
1:59:25on it online you can you can see it's
1:59:26doing the rounds. Okay. Okay. So, if
1:59:31Shar can't be imposed on non-Muslims,
1:59:33what about the command? Is there a
1:59:36command or this the alleged command to
1:59:38kill all non-Muslims
1:59:40wherever you find them or anything like
1:59:41this? And this is um wrong. And I will
1:59:44quote to you a classical medieval
1:59:48Islamic scholar Ibin Tamir. I quote Ibin
1:59:50Tamir because Ibin Tamir was actually
1:59:52been praised by ISIS, been praised by
1:59:54al-Qaeda. he's looked up to for them.
1:59:56But let's see what he says. He's a
1:59:58medieval scholar. So he's not pandering
2:00:00to any liberal uh current uh day. So he
2:00:04says the foundation is that the blood of
2:00:07Bani Adam which is the tribe of Adam is
2:00:09all human beings is sanctified and
2:00:11inviable and no one is killed except by
2:00:14a right. Killing due to disbelief in
2:00:18Islam is not something which the
2:00:19legislations have agreed upon at any one
2:00:22time of Sharia such as killing the one
2:00:24who sits out of combat for this is
2:00:26something that the legislators have and
2:00:28and and the intellect do not differ over
2:00:30the blood of a non-Muslim during the
2:00:33time since early Islam was sanctified
2:00:35and inviable just like the original
2:00:37sanctity of the person from Bunny Adam.
2:00:41So um as Allah prevented Muslims from
2:00:44killing such a anyone who's non-Muslim
2:00:47considering a non-Muslim this is a
2:00:50medieval classical scholar it's pretty
2:00:52straightforward but then the question
2:00:54arises
2:00:56why then does did al-Qaeda exist what
2:01:00did the killers of Lee Rigby say they
2:01:03were doing it for right so
2:01:06>> a point of order has been raised I hear
2:01:08the gentleman
2:01:09>> just as a question for clarification has
2:01:11the remark on the remark on remigration
2:01:14has been withdrawn. Yes.
2:01:16>> Uh I actually have a quote here um from
2:01:20Tommy Robinson. I would have
2:01:21remigration. It's time for many Muslims
2:01:23to leave this country if they're not
2:01:25going to integrate or assimilate. It's
2:01:26time to go home.
2:01:27>> I hear the honorable gentleman I hear
2:01:29the honorable Mr. I hear the honorable
2:01:32gentleman's point of order. However, we
2:01:34are concerned with the comments in this
2:01:36chamber.
2:01:38>> Okay. I believe you're reading a quote
2:01:40from outside this chamber.
2:01:41>> Okay.
2:01:41>> Is that the case?
2:01:43>> Yes. But
2:01:44>> I would that I'm going to ask everybody
2:01:48to take their seats. I've ruled on the
2:01:49point of order. I will remind the
2:01:51gentlemen that a point of order is not
2:01:54for simply raising quotes from outside
2:01:55the chamber. It must be to raise a
2:01:57matter concerned with the debate that is
2:01:59going on. Thank you, Mr. Analucy.
2:02:01[cough]
2:02:05>> I haven't even started speaking. Yes,
2:02:06sir. No, no, I I haven't accept I
2:02:08haven't accepted it because my time is
2:02:09limited now, right? And
2:02:15um I'll leave it to the imagination of
2:02:16everyone um who here will be on his list
2:02:20of Muslims. He won't remigrate.
2:02:22Um so what what about free speech?
2:02:27>> So excuse me, you can't do this. I
2:02:31>> I can
2:02:32call my time to speak.
2:02:33>> Can I can I ask Mr. Anderson to make to
2:02:36make some progress? Mr. Fox, I
2:02:37understand the point you're raising. Mr.
2:02:38Anducy, can I ask you to continue? And
2:02:40can I ask you, can I Mr. Fox, thank you,
2:02:44Mr. Anducy, can I ask you not to repeat
2:02:46that remark? We have already dealt with
2:02:48this point.
2:02:49>> I need more than that, right? Okay. Um,
2:02:53[gasps] what about free speech? We've
2:02:54heard a lot about free speech. Well,
2:02:57I'll just give you an example of
2:02:59medieval Islamic free speech. Perhaps
2:03:01that would give you the best example
2:03:03because you might say maybe Muslims here
2:03:05this in this day and age uh in many
2:03:07countries don't fully understand what
2:03:08Islam requires them to do quote unquote
2:03:11uh visi people who attack the prophet
2:03:13Muhammad or criticize him. Well,
2:03:15firstly, the example of the prophet
2:03:16Muhammad when was he had a neighbor who
2:03:18was a woman who hated him, hated his
2:03:20message. And every day he'd come out,
2:03:22when he come back, she'd throw rubbish
2:03:23on his head. And he didn't do anything
2:03:26to her except there was one day when he
2:03:29came back and the woman didn't throw
2:03:30rubbish in his head. And what did he do?
2:03:33He went to her door, knocked on it, she
2:03:35opened it, and she was shocked to see
2:03:36him there. And he he said, "Are you
2:03:39okay? I noticed that you didn't throw
2:03:41rubbish on my head, so I was concerned
2:03:44about about you. And she said, "No one
2:03:46in all of the the town has come to see
2:03:49me about cuz I'm ill except you." And
2:03:52then she embraced Islam. She was amazed
2:03:54at the person's morals. This is the
2:03:56example that Muslims uh follow. And I'll
2:03:59give you an example from Islamic
2:04:00history. Please let me uh let me just at
2:04:02least quote them example. So you
2:04:05probably heard maybe you've heard of
2:04:06someone, a a saint called St. John of
2:04:09Damascus. Why is he called St. John of
2:04:13Damascus? Well, firstly, let me talk
2:04:16about his book. So, he published a book
2:04:17attacking Islam uh quite vicifously
2:04:20calling the prophet a false prophet who
2:04:22wrote ridiculous compositions, randomly
2:04:24accu accused him of committing adultery
2:04:26and and wrote how he how um that Muslims
2:04:29are like beasts who are destined to
2:04:31hell. Where did he publish this book? He
2:04:35published this book under the Omead
2:04:37Caliphate Syria
2:04:39during Islamic times. And then he had a
2:04:42a student Theodoris Abuarus who wrote 15
2:04:47more books criticizing
2:04:5115 more books attacking Islam. And he
2:04:54was invited to the court of Khalif
2:04:56Marwan to have a debate with Muslim
2:04:58scholars in front of the Khalif. And at
2:05:00the end by his own account he was given
2:05:03gifts and uh a mantle for his good
2:05:06debating skills even though he had not
2:05:09embraced Islam and he had kept on
2:05:11attacking. And what happened to him? The
2:05:14Muslim scholar Isa bin Sabir al- Murda
2:05:17published a book refuting him and that
2:05:19was it. This is Islamic free speech. And
2:05:23I'll leave it with um one final point
2:05:26because my time has been heavily uh
2:05:28limited unfortunately. Um does everyone
2:05:31know the quote live and let live?
2:05:34>> You've heard of it. Does anyone know a
2:05:36famous person or infamous person that
2:05:38said it? You don't know or you're not
2:05:41going to like what I say next. I'm going
2:05:43to give you someone that you won't be
2:05:44able to get out of your head. There was
2:05:46a guy that said it rather relatively
2:05:49recently. His name is Osama bin Laden.
2:05:54He said it and you can check in the book
2:05:56by Dr. Bruce Lawrence the the
2:05:59composition composition of the
2:06:01statements by Osama bin Laden when he
2:06:03said and let me explain let me explain
2:06:05the context. All right. It's easy to
2:06:08scoff but it's even it's harder to
2:06:10actually investigate the nuances of
2:06:11reality.
2:06:13>> The issue is yes. Yes. Osama bin Laden
2:06:18was asked in an alazer interview why are
2:06:21you fighting the west and also you have
2:06:24declared that non-combatants can be
2:06:26attacked so he said that because the
2:06:30west kills our women and children and I
2:06:33want to show I want to protect our women
2:06:35and children by making the west pay a
2:06:38price to fill our pain in the same way
2:06:40to stop them from bombing us. This is
2:06:42not an Islamic logic by the way. And
2:06:44then the person asked him, "But does not
2:06:46the prophet Muhammad forbid the
2:06:47targeting of non-combatants." And you
2:06:48know what? Bin Laden said, "You're
2:06:50right. It is forbidden in the Quran and
2:06:52Sunnah." But then he says, "But this
2:06:54prohibition he believes, let me finish.
2:06:56This prohibition he believes is not
2:06:58absolute because he says in the modern
2:07:01world, which is not an Islamic text or
2:07:03or someone, he says we should we should
2:07:06reciprocate how the enemy fights us."
2:07:09And then he claims that Islamic scholars
2:07:12have permitted this. I will I will
2:07:14finish.
2:07:14>> I must ask you I must ask you to
2:07:16conclude.
2:07:17>> Yes. Okay. Mr. Sacred,
2:07:18>> one last one last quote,
2:07:19>> gentlemen, please. Thank you, Mr.
2:07:22Sacred. You raised a point of order.
2:07:23What is your point of order?
2:07:24>> We'd all like him to carry on. It's
2:07:26really funny. Okay.
2:07:27>> Thank you, Mr. Sacred. That's not a
2:07:28point of order, Mr. Styles. Yes. What is
2:07:30your point of order?
2:07:31>> Thank you. Let me
2:07:33>> Can the gentleman opposite confirm
2:07:35whether he condemns?
2:07:37>> That is not a point of order, Mr.
2:07:39Styles.
2:07:40>> Mr. Osama bin Laden.
2:07:43I'll take it.
2:07:43>> Sit down. That is not a point of order.
2:07:46Mr. Ander Luci, Mr. Andi, I'm going to
2:07:49give you 30 seconds to conclude your
2:07:50remarks. Thank you.
2:07:52>> Okay. Yes, I do condemn Assam bind his
2:07:54methods because as the classical
2:07:56medieval Islamic scholar Ibin Kubi says,
2:07:59it is not permissible for us to
2:08:01retaliate in the same manner even if the
2:08:03enemy kill our women and children and
2:08:05cause sorrow to befall us. It is not
2:08:07permissible for us to act likewise with
2:08:09the intention of making them feel grief
2:08:10and sorrow. Medieval Islamic scholars
2:08:13understood the rules of war. Bin L wants
2:08:16to change it to become part of the
2:08:17modern world to imitate the west. And he
2:08:20cites Winston Churchill's bombing of
2:08:21Germany. Said they can bomb civilians.
2:08:23Why can't we? In Islam, this is a
2:08:25rejected argument. We don't copy
2:08:28monstrous actions. We don't become the
2:08:30monsters who fight us. But but I will I
2:08:33will go
2:08:35I will give I'll give one last sentence
2:08:36and I will see. I'm sorry but I must ask
2:08:39you to conclude. Sorry, we have a lot
2:08:42longer.
2:08:42>> I will.
2:08:43>> So when I said when I said
2:08:47when I said live and let live, what was
2:08:48what was I referring to the actual his
2:08:50full phrase? He said if the West stop
2:08:54attacking us, we'll stop attacking them.
2:08:57Live and let live. He did not say the
2:09:00Quran tells us to kill all non-Muslims
2:09:02and massacre them. He did not say it. So
2:09:04the issue is this. We talk we talk a lot
2:09:07about what motivates terrorists. We talk
2:09:10a lot about what motivates terrorists,
2:09:11but at least quote them because Assam
2:09:13bin Laden never himself uses the
2:09:15argument that the Quran says to kill
2:09:17non-Muslims. So, so the only people that
2:09:19believe that Muslims can kill
2:09:21non-Muslims is are those standing in
2:09:23opposition.
2:09:24>> Thank you.
2:09:26>> I thank the honorable gentleman. I thank
2:09:29the honorable gentleman for his speech
2:09:30in [snorts] opposition of the motion and
2:09:33I call upon Mr. Leon Styles to close the
2:09:36case for the proposition.
2:09:39>> [applause]
2:09:44>> Thank you, Mr. Chair. I mean, I must say
2:09:47I'm not sure how I can top that and I'm
2:09:50not referring I'm not referring to the
2:09:53duration.
2:09:54>> Uh,
2:09:56yes.
2:09:58>> So, the album by Bin Live and Let Live,
2:10:00I hear it's a great side proposition.
2:10:03>> Uh, he talks about live and let live and
2:10:05then uh continues to quote Mr. been
2:10:08assumin laden and all kinds of different
2:10:10aspects. Uh uh what the question I was
2:10:12going to ask you Mr. Ch was whether he
2:10:14condemns him because if he does I'm not
2:10:16sure why he quoted him so very much. I
2:10:18suppose that's a question for the
2:10:20gentleman and you never took many of
2:10:21mine so I'm going to wait. Now I must
2:10:24say Mr. Chair when I first uh accepted
2:10:27to speak in this debate I assumed I
2:10:29would be the most right-wing individual
2:10:32in the chamber. However, looking at the
2:10:34speakers alongside me, I am pleased to
2:10:37report this is no longer the case.
2:10:40Instead, this debate has already achieve
2:10:42something I previously thought
2:10:43impossible. In fact, we've encouraged
2:10:46Mr. Jacob Ree Smog and Mr. Tommy
2:10:48Robinson to finally disagree on
2:10:50something. If anything, Mr. Chair, at
2:10:54least the Oxford Union still performs
2:10:56miracles.
2:10:57But that observation points to something
2:10:59quite important. The easiest mistake
2:11:02this house could make would be to assume
2:11:05that our argument belongs to one
2:11:07political tribe. That is not true. The
2:11:10argument I make tonight is not
2:11:12necessarily a conservative one, believe
2:11:15it or not. It is actually a liberal one.
2:11:18So yes, Mr. Chair, I rise to propose the
2:11:21motion that the West does in fact have
2:11:24the right to be suspicious of Islam and
2:11:26Mr. Osama bin Laden.
2:11:29Let there
2:11:30>> hear here.
2:11:32>> Before anybody rushes to outrage,
2:11:34however, let us be absolutely clear
2:11:37about what we are and what we are not
2:11:39arguing. We are not arguing that Muslims
2:11:43are lesser citizens. We are not arguing
2:11:45that Muslims deserve fewer rights.
2:11:50We are not arguing that Muslims deserve
2:11:53less dignity, less freedom than anybody
2:11:55else. Indeed, one of the defining
2:11:58achievements of Western liberal
2:11:59democracy is the principle that as
2:12:02Martin Luther King said, and I'm sure
2:12:04you're a fan of him, sir, as well as
2:12:06Osama bin Laden, is that individuals
2:12:09is that individuals
2:12:10>> point of order,
2:12:11>> point of order has been raised, Mr.
2:12:13Lucy,
2:12:14>> he said, I'm a fan of Osama bin Laden.
2:12:16And in no way did I ever say that at
2:12:18all.
2:12:19>> I hear the point of order, Mr. Styles.
2:12:21Actually, what I said, I'm sure he's a
2:12:24fan of him as well as Osama bin Laden,
2:12:26>> which does suggest that you think he's a
2:12:28fan of Osama bin Laden.
2:12:31>> I I I'm I'm no English language
2:12:33graduate, but I think that I'm willing
2:12:35I'm willing to Mr. Styles, can I invite
2:12:37you to withdraw the accusation of that
2:12:39he is a fan of
2:12:41>> Of course, Mr. Ch. I'm willing to
2:12:42withdraw, but I will leave that uh
2:12:45judgment to to the audience. Um indeed
2:12:48one of the defining achievements of
2:12:50western liberal democracy is the
2:12:52principle as I said as Martin Luther
2:12:54King said that individuals are judged
2:12:56based on the content of their character
2:12:58not their religion and not their race.
2:13:01The Muslim citizen deserves the same
2:13:03rights as the Christian, the Jew and the
2:13:06atheist who lives alongside them. What
2:13:09we are arguing is something much more
2:13:11simple that ideas have no right to
2:13:14immunity from scrutiny. Religions have
2:13:17no right to exemption from criticism.
2:13:21Ideologies have no right to deference.
2:13:24The West has long been suspicious of
2:13:27numerous forms of ideas. Monarchism,
2:13:30fascism, communism,
2:13:33Islamism to name a few.
2:13:36And if we have the right to be
2:13:38suspicious of every other major belief,
2:13:41why should Islam be uniquely exempt? One
2:13:44may criticize the authority of the
2:13:46pontiff, the pope. One may criticize the
2:13:49authority of the Quran. There is no
2:13:51double standard.
2:13:53>> Of course.
2:13:54>> On that basis, when someone criticizes
2:13:56the pope, when someone criticizes
2:13:58Catholic teachings, is it a threat
2:14:00against the dignity of Catholics?
2:14:02>> No. Of course not. No. No. No. No.
2:14:09>> What information?
2:14:10>> Of course. But are we not we're not
2:14:12arguing about whether you have a right
2:14:14to be suspicious of Islam, but whether
2:14:16you are right to be suspicious of Islam.
2:14:18There is there is a difference. I I'm
2:14:20sure you agree.
2:14:21>> The motion is we we have a right to be.
2:14:23So the
2:14:24>> the
2:14:26right
2:14:26>> sure the west the west is right to be
2:14:29suspicious of Islam. That's absolutely
2:14:30fine. I think we're we're right to be
2:14:32suspicious of all sorts of ideologies
2:14:34including as I mentioned of
2:14:35Christianity, of monarchism, communism,
2:14:37fascism, which we have been
2:14:38historically. you know are also right to
2:14:41be skeptical of Islamism which Osama bin
2:14:43Laden seems to be a big fan of. Now the
2:14:46opposition the opposition Mr. Chair have
2:14:50attempted to blur the distinction
2:14:52between criticism of Islam and prejudice
2:14:55against Muslims but these are not the
2:14:58same thing. Suspicion of an idea is not
2:15:01hatred of a person. To question a
2:15:03doctrine is not to persecute its
2:15:06followers. Of course I give way. So you
2:15:08invoked uh Martin Luther King. If we
2:15:11accept Dr. King's principle that people
2:15:13should be judged on the hunting of their
2:15:15character, why should we judge nearly 2
2:15:18billion Muslims by the actions of the
2:15:20French minorities?
2:15:23[applause]
2:15:28[applause]
2:15:29I I'll refer the lady opposite to my
2:15:32most previous sentence. Quote, but these
2:15:34are not the same thing. Suspicion of an
2:15:36idea is not hatred of a person. To
2:15:38question a doctrine is not to persecute
2:15:40its faults. [applause]
2:15:46Our suspicion is particularly justified
2:15:48in Islam. Unlike many modern uh
2:15:51interpretations of religion, it is not
2:15:53always presented merely as a private
2:15:55spiritual faith. Many interpretations of
2:15:58Islam contain legal, political, and
2:16:01social prescriptions. They make claims
2:16:03about not only how individuals should
2:16:05live their lives, but how society should
2:16:07be organized and governed. When any
2:16:10belief system seeks influence over law,
2:16:13education, public morality, or political
2:16:15institutions, citizens don't only have a
2:16:18right, but a responsibility to question
2:16:21those ideologies.
2:16:23In addition to concerns regarding
2:16:25fundamentalist Islam abroad, for
2:16:28example, in Iran and Afghanistan, we
2:16:30have witnessed, Mr. Mr. Chair, within
2:16:33our own society, serious challenges
2:16:36posed by Islamist extremism. The United
2:16:39Kingdom has spent decades confronting
2:16:41terrorist threats inspired by extreme
2:16:44interpretations of Islam. I direct all
2:16:47members to take a look at the MI5 terror
2:16:49watch list made up overwhelmingly of
2:16:53Islamist terrorists.
2:16:55>> Pay is the speaker aware that Islamism
2:16:58is not Islam?
2:16:59>> Of course. Of course. There was no
2:17:01indicate there was no indication that
2:17:03Islamism is the same as Islam. What I'm
2:17:06the point I'm making is many followers
2:17:08of Islam take it to the extreme
2:17:11disproportionately compared to other
2:17:13religions.
2:17:14>> Of course,
2:17:15>> what's the prophet Muhammad business by
2:17:17definition?
2:17:17>> Well, I'm sure you know more about that,
2:17:19Tommy, than I would. Um,
2:17:22we have also seen instances in which
2:17:25public authorities were reluctant to
2:17:26investigate or discuss pattern. No, I I
2:17:30didn't I did not give you permission.
2:17:32Please sit down. We have also seen
2:17:35instances in which public authorities
2:17:37were reluctant to investigate or discuss
2:17:40patterns that emerged in certain
2:17:42criminal networks for fear of causing
2:17:44offense or appearing prejudiced.
2:17:48Whatever conclusions one draws from
2:17:50those cases, Mr. Chair, the lesson is
2:17:53clear. Fear of criticizing ideas,
2:17:55cultures, or communities cannot be
2:17:58permitted in the pursuit of truth. A
2:18:01liberal society must be willing to
2:18:03examine uncomfortable facts wherever
2:18:05they may lead. Of course, Mr. Chair, I'm
2:18:09talking about the rape gangs, one of the
2:18:12greatest domestic atrocities in decades.
2:18:16Thousands and thousands of young white
2:18:19workingclass girls raped and abused. Yet
2:18:22the authorities they were afraid to ask
2:18:25the difficult questions about the
2:18:27perpetrators, the vast and overwhelming
2:18:30majority of whom were Pakistani Muslim
2:18:33men.
2:18:34>> Point of information I give way
2:18:36>> that's factually not in that's factually
2:18:37not correct. Uh according to the VKP
2:18:41national analysis reports only 2.2% 2%
2:18:44of Pakistanis are involved. Sorry, of
2:18:46the those who are committing um child
2:18:48sex exploitation uh of their of the
2:18:51total amount of perpetrators, 2.2% are
2:18:54Pakistanis. How are they the majority?
2:18:56How are they the majority, sir? That
2:18:58>> that's fine. The the rape gangs I'm
2:18:59referring to were mentioned in the J
2:19:01report were mentioned were mentioned in
2:19:03the rape gang report published yesterday
2:19:05by Rupert Low. You may be a fan of him.
2:19:07I'm not sure. Of course, I give away.
2:19:10>> Um
2:19:13On a point, across all child sexual
2:19:15offenses in this country, around 88% of
2:19:17convicted offenders are white and only a
2:19:20very small minority are from mixed or
2:19:21ethnic backgrounds. If we do not call
2:19:22that a white sex offender epidemic, why
2:19:24is the speaker entitled to call a far
2:19:26smaller subset a Muslim one? The home
2:19:28office's own December 2020 review of
2:19:30group based child sexual exploitation
2:19:31found that offenders are most commonly
2:19:32white. Will the speaker tell the house
2:19:34of his equally suspicious wholesale of
2:19:36white men as a whole?
2:19:37>> Thank you, Madam President. I was not
2:19:39referring to anybody's race. What I was
2:19:41referring to is the religion of Islam
2:19:43and how culturally has proven very very
2:19:45prominent in these rape gangs.
2:19:49I I no thank you. I I I would direct the
2:19:52members of the house to the rape gang
2:19:55report published yesterday by the member
2:19:57of parliament for great yalmouth
2:19:59particularly to page 18 where the most
2:20:02egregious testimonies of all begin those
2:20:05of the survivors.
2:20:08To recognize this fact is not to condemn
2:20:10ordinary Muslims. Indeed, many of the
2:20:13victims of Islamist extremism around the
2:20:15world are themselves Muslim. Absolutely.
2:20:18>> But a particular ideology giving rise to
2:20:21movements that reject pluralism,
2:20:25individual liberty, democratic
2:20:26governance, and freedom of expression.
2:20:29Citizens must be able to ask questions
2:20:31about those ideas. Indeed, every
2:20:35scientific advance and every phil
2:20:37philosophical breakthrough begins with
2:20:39the willingness to ask difficult
2:20:41questions. A society that loses this
2:20:44ability and the right to be suspicious
2:20:47loses the capacity to think critically.
2:20:50Ultimately, Mr. Chair, this debate is
2:20:53not alone about Islam. It is about
2:20:56whether any set of ideas should be
2:20:58protected from scrutiny because
2:21:00criticism may offend. Of course, the
2:21:02debate is not actually about whether the
2:21:03West has a right to be suspicious of
2:21:04Islam. It is very specifically that the
2:21:06West is right.
2:21:07>> And I've pointed to
2:21:08>> a bit of a distinction there. We're not
2:21:09saying you don't have a right.
2:21:10>> Thank you, Madam President. I I I've
2:21:12pointed to many examples as to why we
2:21:14would be right to, for example, the rape
2:21:15gangs. Um so, so if the answer is yes,
2:21:19that we should allow these ideas to be
2:21:22sheltered from scrutiny, then liberal
2:21:24democracy has fallen face first. It has
2:21:27failed. If the answer is no and we
2:21:29should question these uh ideas, then the
2:21:33motion must stand and you all must vote
2:21:35in proposition. We ask for no special
2:21:38suspicion of Islam. We ask for no lesser
2:21:41rights for Muslims. We ask only for the
2:21:43equal application of a principle at the
2:21:46heart of western civilization
2:21:49that every idea, however ancient,
2:21:51however influential, however sacred,
2:21:54must be questioned and is right to be
2:21:56criticized.
2:21:58Islam is a powerful and influential set
2:22:00of ideas. Like with every other powerful
2:22:03set of ideas, it may be examined,
2:22:05criticized, and yes, regarded with
2:22:08suspicion. And if there is one thing
2:22:10everybody in this room can agree with,
2:22:13it is that being suspicious of
2:22:14propositions is entirely reasonable.
2:22:17After all, you've spent the last 10
2:22:19minutes being suspicious of mine. So
2:22:22information,
2:22:22>> of course.
2:22:23>> So the motion is actually this house
2:22:26believes the West as a whole um is right
2:22:29to be suspicious of Islam. You're
2:22:31referring to individual suspicions and
2:22:33individual lines of inquiry. what this
2:22:35motion is referring to and what I hope
2:22:38what I want
2:22:38>> I think we have the point sir please
2:22:40allow the speaker to respond
2:22:41>> is it a systemic
2:22:42>> sir sir please allow the speaker to
2:22:44respond thank you
2:22:45>> well there was about four questions in
2:22:46there I'm not sure which one to respond
2:22:48to um I'll go with the second or the
2:22:50third or maybe the fifth I'm not sure um
2:22:52what I would say to you is uh in America
2:22:54they're very suspicious of Islam and
2:22:56they've had a very successful
2:22:57immigration policy over here we're
2:22:59increasingly as a society suspicious of
2:23:02Islam for some of the reasons I've
2:23:03mentioned including including the rape
2:23:05gangs, including the MI5 terror watch
2:23:08list made up overwhelmingly of Islamist
2:23:11terrorists. So, I hope that answers one
2:23:13of your vast array of questions. Now,
2:23:16for those reasons, Mr. Chair, including
2:23:18the fact that most of this room have
2:23:20probably been very suspicious of my
2:23:22propositions for the last 10 minutes,
2:23:23and maybe rightly so, I am also
2:23:26suspicious of Islam. And for those
2:23:28reasons, Mr. Chair, I beg the House to
2:23:30vote in proposition. Thank you very
2:23:32much. [applause]
2:23:37I thank the honorable gentleman for that
2:23:39speech closing the case for the
2:23:40proposition and I call upon the ex-
2:23:42librarian Trinity Sir Jacob to close the
2:23:45case for the opposition. [applause]
2:23:57Mr. Chairman, may I begin by adding my
2:24:00congratulations to the president for
2:24:03being incredibly steadfast and stalwart
2:24:07against extraordinary pressure and
2:24:09hostility from people who ought to have
2:24:11known better and should have supported
2:24:12her in defending free speech. And may I
2:24:16thank Mr. Robinson for accepting the
2:24:18invitation to come to an audience that
2:24:20he didn't necessarily expect to be
2:24:23favorable. Free speech requires both
2:24:25sides of the argument. to be put. We
2:24:29also congratulate the member who just
2:24:32spoke in Christ Church for his elegant
2:24:34speech which unfortunately elegantly
2:24:36spoke about a different motion. And that
2:24:39is often a problem with the Oxford Union
2:24:41Society that when a motion says one
2:24:42thing and a speaker thinks something
2:24:44else, he tries and talk around the
2:24:46subject. Now, we've heard quite a bit
2:24:47from you already, but we might come back
2:24:49to you.
2:24:50We might come back to you later.
2:24:53[applause]
2:24:55And
2:24:56I want to speak strictly to the motion.
2:25:01The West is right to be suspicious of
2:25:03Islam. And here, Mr. Chandler, I'm
2:25:06disappointed because I thought I was
2:25:08coming up against the hard men of the
2:25:12right of British politics, the people
2:25:15who have a reputation for being tough
2:25:18and forthright and powerfully patriotic.
2:25:22And it turns out that they are we sleek
2:25:25it caring timmerous beasties because
2:25:28they have no confidence in the west in
2:25:31their nation in the religion that has
2:25:33made our nation fine and great and
2:25:35strong. Instead they're sitting there in
2:25:39their homes at night ftting that we're
2:25:43suddenly going to be converted to Islam.
2:25:46Well, I'm not. Let me be quite clear
2:25:48about this. [applause]
2:25:50Wendy
2:25:54because I believe in the enormous
2:25:57strength of the west and of western
2:26:00values and one of those western values
2:26:03is that we believe in freedom of
2:26:05religion. But we partly believe in that
2:26:08because freedom of religion, freedom of
2:26:10ideas, freedom of speech of which
2:26:13freedom of religion must be a substep
2:26:16has made us strong.
2:26:18We have whisper it quietly in the west
2:26:22benefited from Islam during our history.
2:26:26What about alqurazimi
2:26:29cir 18 820 even a bit before my time who
2:26:33gave us the advantage of numbers. It
2:26:36took us 300 years to get his numbering
2:26:39system into Latin or even into English.
2:26:44But that has been the foundation of
2:26:45capitalism. Without the numbering system
2:26:48that has come to us from Islam, we would
2:26:50not have the strength of capitalism that
2:26:53has made us strong and rich and
2:26:55prosperous and successful.
2:26:58But what about the Laffer curve? Now,
2:27:00there may be some people here who like
2:27:02the Laugher curve. I love it. I love
2:27:04this idea that lower taxes are a jolly
2:27:05good thing. I want them to be a good
2:27:07deal lower.
2:27:10But Arthur Lafer himself
2:27:13recognizes the value of Uben Calaldun
2:27:16who wrote 600 years before Arthur Lafer
2:27:21in 1377
2:27:23beginning to come into my time. I think
2:27:25I was probably at school by then hadn't
2:27:28come up to Oxford yet.
2:27:301377 600 years. What did he say? It's
2:27:33rather wonderful how he put it. He said
2:27:36that when a sultan comes to the throne,
2:27:39he has low taxes and lots of income. And
2:27:42when he's old, he has high taxes and no
2:27:45income. That is a beautiful
2:27:47encapsulation of the laughter curve. And
2:27:50it comes from an Islamic scholar. If
2:27:53only the West had the wisdom to be a
2:27:55little bit less suspicious of some
2:27:57things that come from Islam, we might
2:27:58have lower taxes and a stronger growing
2:28:00economy. And I Oh, go on. I'll give way
2:28:03to you. Could you maybe come up with
2:28:05something a little more current from an
2:28:06Islamic scholar like say Osama bin Laden
2:28:09or someone?
2:28:09>> Well, I know the side opposite of
2:28:12friendly obsession with of Mr. Bin
2:28:15Laden. Um, I'm not a fan of his. Let me
2:28:17make that absolutely clear.
2:28:19I think he's one of the most evil men to
2:28:22have come into the world in the last 100
2:28:24years.
2:28:26No. Yes. To come into the world in the
2:28:28last 100 years. A fundamentally evil bad
2:28:31man.
2:28:33But if we go through the history of evil
2:28:36and bad men, are they all Muslim? Or
2:28:41dare I say that there are some
2:28:44Christians who have committed great and
2:28:47evil acts. There are people of all
2:28:49faiths. There are particularly atheists
2:28:52who are very dangerous. Stalin was an
2:28:54atheist, one of the great killers. Mao
2:28:57was an atheist, one of the great
2:28:59killers. You can't blame Mao and Stalin
2:29:01on Islam.
2:29:04And those are the risks we should be
2:29:05worried about. We should be worried
2:29:08about China and about Russia, people who
2:29:10threaten our safety. One, a totalitarian
2:29:13atheist state and one probably an
2:29:16Orthodox state. The Orthodox Church's
2:29:18relationship with the Russian state is
2:29:20pretty close. But do I dismiss all
2:29:23Orthodoxy or do I in fact want it to
2:29:26come into union with Rome? And what
2:29:29about other people who have been
2:29:31important? I'm going to make the
2:29:32comparison. And I know my honorable
2:29:34friend opposite doesn't like to have
2:29:37historical comparisons, but they matter.
2:29:39We learn from our history. But the
2:29:42Christians in 1204
2:29:45sacked and pillaged and destroyed
2:29:48Constantinople. They stole things. They
2:29:51took things. Some of them you can still
2:29:52see in Venice today. When in 1453, the
2:29:5621-year-old Mertt II took
2:29:59Constantinople, do you know what he did?
2:30:02He wrote down some of the great works of
2:30:05Western literature, scholarship, and
2:30:08philosophy so that they were preserved.
2:30:11He had ancient manuscripts copied for
2:30:13their preservation. These are documents
2:30:16that might otherwise have been lost to
2:30:18us and to Western civilization. So my
2:30:21starting point on this suspicion is we
2:30:23should of course not be suspicious
2:30:26because there are times when freedom of
2:30:28religion recognizing what other people
2:30:30can do has benefited our way of life.
2:30:34And I am a great and unapologetic
2:30:37advocate for our way of life because
2:30:40when you go back to Mamemet II and you
2:30:43roll on for the next 150 years,
2:30:46Constantinople was the greatest, the
2:30:48richest, the cleanest, the most
2:30:50civilized city in the world. We were a
2:30:52backwater in comparison. But how did we
2:30:55succeed? What made us work? What made us
2:30:59work is that we developed a
2:31:00constitutional system of which we should
2:31:03be immeasurably proud and which is so
2:31:05strong that we can afford to have 6% of
2:31:09the country being Muslims without
2:31:10worrying about it at all. They are
2:31:12welcome fellow citizens. They are not
2:31:14going to take us over because our
2:31:16constitution will not allow Sharia law
2:31:19to become the law of the land. A
2:31:21democratic Westminster parliament will
2:31:23not vote for that. So fear not. And what
2:31:27goes on in Iran is not what is going to
2:31:30happen in Westminster. So all these
2:31:32things we've heard about terrible
2:31:34punishments that apply in Islamic
2:31:36countries is for the birds. That is not
2:31:38going to be applied in the United
2:31:40Kingdom or in the United States or
2:31:42across Europe. We're going to be able to
2:31:45keep our way of life. Have confidence.
2:31:47Have faith. Now confidence and faith I
2:31:49give way to the honorable gentleman. has
2:31:51been watches
2:31:54in this country.
2:31:55>> There is no legality of Sharia law in
2:31:59this country as law. And did you know
2:32:01this is one of our most ancient statutes
2:32:04that is still on the statute book? The
2:32:061267 statute of Mulbra makes it illegal
2:32:10for justice to be given out in this land
2:32:13by any court other than the king's
2:32:15courts. It is still the law of the land.
2:32:17It is one of the shortest acts of
2:32:19Parliament. It is our law. It makes our
2:32:22law equal for everybody in this country.
2:32:25And anyone who has Sharia law applied to
2:32:27them may apply to the king's court to
2:32:29have it disapplied. I'll give way again.
2:32:31>> Your government you charge conservatives
2:32:33in 2018 done a study into the 100 Sharia
2:32:36tribunals in the UK. You put two Muslims
2:32:39ahead of it. Two 50% on the panel of
2:32:41Muslims and we were advised we can't
2:32:44this is by your arms.
2:32:46>> I know the point. I will happily answer
2:32:48this. They are tribunals. That's the
2:32:50point. They are not compulsory law. The
2:32:54Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
2:32:57judges on marriages.
2:33:00It is allowed to. The act against
2:33:02appeals was repealed in the 1960s. There
2:33:05are other churches and other places that
2:33:08have their own internal laws, but they
2:33:11do not overtake. I won't give away
2:33:13again. It's getting late. I think
2:33:14everyone's probably quite keen to go
2:33:16home. But we've outlasted the
2:33:17protesters, haven't we? Which is, I
2:33:19think, a very good thing to have done.
2:33:23[applause]
2:33:24Lord,
2:33:25I've been having a go. I've been having
2:33:27a go at this lot for being wet wipes,
2:33:29but they're the serious wet wipes. Come
2:33:31on. I'll give it a go.
2:33:32>> 45 women's institutions in the UK wrote
2:33:35to the government during the
2:33:36investigation that they should be
2:33:38suspicious. 88 international
2:33:39organizations, many of them from I
2:33:41admire the Women's Institute
2:33:42marvelously. I think it's a fantastic
2:33:44organization, but I don't particularly
2:33:45need to take my political opinions from
2:33:47the women's institute that a few
2:33:49institutes right to say they're
2:33:50suspicious of something is not holy writ
2:33:55won't won't give way any further because
2:33:57I do need to allow people to go home and
2:33:59to bed to sleep for chance to dream. Um
2:34:02but I wish to or in some cases they may
2:34:05have other intentions but I won't go
2:34:07into that. They may worry it's not
2:34:09allowed under some laws or another and
2:34:10it's probably not allowed by holy mother
2:34:12church either. So anyway, I'm expecting
2:34:15everyone to behave very well. Um, I want
2:34:17to stick to this constitutional point
2:34:19because we should be so proud of our
2:34:21constitution. And what is it? It is
2:34:23democracy. It is the rights of property.
2:34:25It is the rule of law. It is freedom of
2:34:27speech. If you go back to my great
2:34:30heroes, Sir John Forscu, he sets this
2:34:31out set this out in the 15th century
2:34:34saying why it works in this country why
2:34:36we are prosperous is because the king is
2:34:38under the law not the law. And that's
2:34:40why over hundreds of years we have
2:34:43reached and countries like us have
2:34:45reached this level of prosperity which
2:34:47Constantinople failed to do because in
2:34:49totalitarian despotic regimes what you
2:34:52make can be stolen. This isn't Islam. It
2:34:55was the way Constantinople was run. And
2:34:58if you look at the Islamic countries,
2:35:00most of them have very corrupt and bad
2:35:02governments. And that has led to serious
2:35:05problems for them. And the ones that
2:35:07have money are beginning to try and copy
2:35:10us. So the UAE and very slowly Saudi
2:35:12Arabia are trying to develop to be more
2:35:14like us. If I were in Saudi Arabia, I
2:35:16would be saying I'm very suspicious of
2:35:18Christian values because that's what
2:35:20they're beginning to have imposed on
2:35:21them. Why? Because our values work. Our
2:35:25values have led to prosperity and they
2:35:28support freedom of religion.
2:35:31But I'm going to upset all my friends
2:35:33who I've been supporting this evening at
2:35:36this point because fundamental to our
2:35:38values is of course our Lord and Savior.
2:35:41The reason the West is strong is because
2:35:45of Christ and because
2:35:48[applause]
2:35:49and because of the resurrection
2:35:53and the resurrection is borne witness to
2:35:57in the gospels. It is borne witness to
2:36:00by the deaths of the apostles who were
2:36:02martyed having seen the resurrection
2:36:07and that underpins the values of our
2:36:11society.
2:36:12And as our Lord himself said to St.
2:36:14Peter, you are the rock on which I build
2:36:17my church and the gates of hell shall
2:36:19never prevail. Nothing will prevail
2:36:22against our values because our values
2:36:25are underpinned by that underlying truth
2:36:29that is Christ. And that is why I object
2:36:32to this notion so strongly. I think it
2:36:34is misplaced. I think it's basically
2:36:36cowardly. I think it is weak. I think it
2:36:38accuses individuals of having a
2:36:40collective guilt which is Marxism. And
2:36:43not hard right at all over there.
2:36:45desperate old pinkos it turns out. But
2:36:48it comes fundamentally down to what our
2:36:52values are built on. And Mr. Chairman,
2:36:55I'm very glad you ruled in favor of
2:36:58objects because I have an object in my
2:37:01pocket. I have an object which is a
2:37:04cross. The cross literally on which our
2:37:09Lord and Savior died because inside
2:37:11there is a piece of the true cross.
2:37:16Chris Vincet, Chris Ragnat, Chris
2:37:21Imperat
2:37:23>> [applause]

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