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Testosterone Expert: The Truth About DAD BOD & Why Women Find Fathers More Attractive! — Transcript

by The Diary Of A CEO · 17,046 words · 2,601 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00you've discovered something about the
0:01brain I think is quite surprising.
0:03>> So we found that in fathers the brain is
0:05actually shrinking and I'll explain why
0:08but also there are studies that find
0:10that both men and women who report
0:11having had more kids have markers of a
0:14younger looking brain age and then also
0:16typically men when they do this show
0:19[music] about a 25% drop in
0:20testosterone.
0:22The next studies of single women have
0:24found that, you know, if you show them a
0:26series of body types, the dad bot is the
0:28most popular
0:29>> and that's proven by science. So, if I
0:31go out and get a dad bot, you're telling
0:32me the science that says I'm going to be
0:33more attractive.
0:34>> Yeah, go for it.
0:34>> See what my fiance says. The other thing
0:36that's worth talking about is [music]
0:38Have you done any studies on that?
0:40>> Yes. That is one of the most robust
0:42findings [music] in parenthood research
0:44and my lab found actually that
0:46>> Wow. So, I've always been really
0:48interested in [music] families and
0:50becoming a parent is one of the biggest
0:52transformations that you can experience,
0:54but I'm concerned about the declining
0:56birth rate. And I think that we've
0:58managed to market it as an undesirable
1:01choice.
1:01>> According to the CDC and Pew Research
1:03data, [music] the US total fertility
1:05rate just hit an all-time recorded low.
1:07>> Yeah. I mean, the transition to
1:08parenthood can be really challenging.
1:10You are sacrificing yourself. It [music]
1:12can be very isolating. You're losing
1:13your sleep. But becoming a parent, you
1:15are benefiting from this sense of
1:18connection [music] and purpose. You will
1:20rediscover your priorities in a way that
1:21will ultimately bring a lot of value.
1:24>> So if all goes well, next year I will
1:25[music] be a dad and I would like you to
1:27give me some advice on becoming a father
1:29based on all the research that you have.
1:30>> So great fathers are made not born.
1:32There's a lot you can do. [music]
1:33>> I'm going to write it down.
1:34>> Love it. So first,
1:39>> this is super interesting to me. My team
1:41given me this report to show me how many
1:42of you that watch this show subscribe
1:44and some of you have told us according
1:45to this that you are unsubscribed from
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1:49all of you please could you check right
1:51now if you've hit the subscribe button
1:52if you are a regular view of the show
1:54and you like what we do here. We're
1:55approaching quite a significant landmark
1:57on this show in terms of a subscriber
1:58number. So, if there was one simple free
2:01thing that you could do to help us, my
2:03team, everyone here, to keep this show
2:04free, to keep it improving year over
2:07year and week over week, it is just to
2:08hit that subscribe button and to double
2:10check if you've hit it. Only thing I'll
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2:15I'll make sure every single week, every
2:17single month, we fight harder and harder
2:19and harder and harder to bring you the
2:20guests and conversations that you want
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2:22promise since the very beginning of the
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2:27Please help us. Really appreciate it.
2:28Let's get on with the show. [music]
2:33Dr. Darby Saxby, you've discovered
2:37something about the brain that I think
2:39is quite surprising to a lot of men and
2:41women as it relates to what happens to a
2:43man's brain when they become a father.
2:45Um, and I've got the report here in
2:47front of me, but I have a model brain
2:49over there. Could you explain to me what
2:51exactly it is that you discovered?
2:53>> Yes. So we found that in fathers and
2:56this is similar to what's been observed
2:58in mothers, the brain is actually losing
3:01gray matter volume. So it is shrinking.
3:03So if I had stronger hands, I could
3:05probably squish this brain and make it
3:07look tinier.
3:08>> But the parts of the brain that are
3:09shrinking the most are in what we call
3:12the mentalizing network. And that's a
3:14part of the brain that helps us
3:16understand other people's feelings and
3:19intentions. Those areas are kind of
3:21concentrated around the midline of the
3:23cortex, which is kind of what we're
3:25seeing here. And then you also see
3:28volume reduction in the visual areas,
3:30which is the back of the brain, which is
3:31really important for understanding when
3:34you look at an infant's face, what kinds
3:35of emotions it's trying to tell you. And
3:38so we see changes to those parts of the
3:40brain and new dads. In moms, we see
3:42changes to these same parts of the
3:44brain. We also see changes in moms to
3:46what's called the subcortex, which is
3:48this part of the brain that kind of
3:50controls our gut feelings and our sense
3:52of reward and is really strongly linked
3:54with our hormones. So moms are kind of
3:57changing all across the brain. Dads are
3:59mostly changing in this top layer, the
4:01cortex, which kind of controls our
4:04higher order thinking, reasoning, and
4:06executive functioning. And that tells us
4:09something about fatherhood, which is
4:11that fathers choose to engage in
4:14parenting. It's a sort of cognitively
4:17mediated investment that dads are
4:19making.
4:19>> What does that mean?
4:20>> So, if you think about a mom who's been
4:23through 9 months of pregnancy, she is
4:26flooded with hormones when her baby is
4:28born and she has a really high
4:31investment in the baby's survival. Just
4:34thinking about the number of calories
4:36that it takes to sustain a pregnancy,
4:38it's thousands. And and so there's a
4:41very high floor from maternal
4:42investment. And moms are undergoing
4:45plasticity all across the brain that
4:47reflects that. In dads, there's a
4:50tremendous amount of cross-cultural
4:53variability. So there are cultures in
4:56which dads participate in child care and
4:59are very hands-on with babies from the
5:01moment of birth. There are cultures in
5:03which there are prohibitions against men
5:05picking babies up.
5:06>> You don't pick babies up in the first
5:08year. In some cultures,
5:09>> you don't pick babies up because it's
5:10considered unmanly. Okay?
5:12>> So, there's a tremendous amount of
5:14variability and dads calibrate their
5:16investment according to what the culture
5:18says and what the context looks like. If
5:21mom becomes unavailable, dad is often
5:23needed to step in and provide more of
5:26the care. And so this sort of top layer
5:28of brain changes reflects that, you
5:31know, dads are modulating their
5:34investment depending on what they're
5:36learning from the environment. And the
5:39word that biologists use for this is
5:42facultative. So a facultative
5:45adaptation is an adaptation that is
5:48optional but extremely useful. You could
5:51think about an animal that walks on four
5:53legs suddenly having something really
5:56important to grab and switching to walk
5:59on two legs so that it can use its
6:01hands. Hands are really useful for that
6:05animal. Fathers are really useful for
6:08humanity.
6:09>> But are you saying they're optional,
6:10>> but they vary depending on situation.
6:13And I don't want to say that fathers
6:14aren't important. They're incredibly
6:16important. There are dads who are
6:18primary caregivers and even sole
6:20caregivers of children. But dads vary
6:23and they vary depending on what is
6:26needed for children to thrive in their
6:28specific local context.
6:30>> And a woman's brain shrinks as well, but
6:32it shrinks a little bit more.
6:34>> Yes, it covers more of the brain
6:36>> and it also shows a larger across the
6:39board volume reduction. And I should
6:41explain volume reduction. We often think
6:43about deficit mommy brain. you're
6:46forgetting things. Volume reduction is
6:48not a bad thing. What it means is that
6:50the brain is actually working more
6:52efficiently because it's building better
6:55connected pathways and better channels
6:58for communicating information.
7:00>> Is it accurate to say that the brain is
7:03focusing?
7:04>> Yes, exactly. So, it's reshaping in a
7:06way that enables more efficient
7:10communication. It's learning. It's
7:11consolidating. So, it's kind of like if
7:13you think about the director's cut of a
7:17movie that has lots of interesting extra
7:19scenes and characters and then you watch
7:21it in the theater and it's like this
7:23lean mean 2hour cut,
7:25>> right? Like many of us prefer the
7:26theatrical release because it's easier
7:28to follow.
7:30>> And by getting rid of certain parts of
7:32the brain, that means more energy can be
7:34used in the other parts of the brain. Is
7:36that broadly accurate?
7:37>> Exactly. So that we're better able to
7:40focus on what matters. And when we
7:42become parents, what matters is our
7:45children and the inputs they're giving
7:46us.
7:47>> The interesting thing is the way that
7:48you described the part of the brain that
7:51the man loses when they become a father
7:54made it seem like they're losing
7:55empathy.
7:56>> No, they're actually improving in their
7:59empathy because they're becoming more
8:02efficient processors of social
8:04information. So the fact that where we
8:06see the biggest changes are in these
8:08what we call mentalizing social
8:10cognition networks tells us that those
8:13networks are really important for dads
8:15to use when they become parents and
8:17they're getting a lot of practice
8:18putting those networks into into use.
8:21>> I thought you said that section of the
8:23brain shrunk.
8:23>> Yes. Because the brain is becoming more
8:26efficient. So, it's losing all the extra
8:29pathways and you're sort of building a
8:31super highway for that specific social
8:34information.
8:35>> Sounds a bit counterintuitive because I
8:36imagined that my brain would grow when I
8:39get better at something.
8:40>> You would, but in this case, the brain
8:42is actually shrinking. And I know it it
8:45sort of feels like a puzzle to wrap your
8:47head around, but it actually does
8:49reflect that the brain is working
8:51better. And is there a relationship
8:53between how hands-on the father is and
8:57the amount of shrinkage that happens in
8:59their brain?
8:59>> Yeah. And my lab found that
9:01relationship. So when dads told us
9:03before birth that they felt more bonded
9:05to their unborn baby, when they wanted
9:07to take more time off after work, and
9:09when they told us 3 months after birth
9:11that they enjoyed their babies more,
9:13they felt more connected and bonded to
9:15them, and they were spending more time
9:17taking care of their babies, they had
9:19more profound brain shrinkage. All of
9:22this seems to support the contention
9:23that the shrinkage is really adaptive
9:26and it's enabling men's adjustment to
9:28parenthood.
9:29>> Is there any other biological changes
9:31that take place when someone becomes a
9:33father?
9:34>> So, we also see changes to men's
9:36hormones.
9:37>> I talk about this in the book. Men
9:39typically show a drop in testosterone
9:42>> and I've got a big thing here.
9:44>> Yeah, let's talk about testosterone. So
9:47typically men when their hands on as
9:49fathers show about a 25% drop in
9:52testosterone and some of the best
9:54studies of this have been done
9:55longitudinally in the Philippines.
9:58Before we had longitudinal studies
10:00people said well maybe lower
10:02testosterone men are just choosing to
10:04become fathers. And so looking across
10:07time lets us tease that out and see is
10:10there something about fatherhood that's
10:12actually changing testosterone. And so
10:14when you look across decades, you find
10:16that testosterone is typically pretty
10:18high before pregnancy happens. And it's
10:22adapted to have high testosterone. You
10:24know, testosterone's been studied a lot
10:26in birds. It's also been studied in
10:28rodents and in other mammals. You want
10:30high testosterone at the start of
10:33breeding season when it's time to
10:36maximize your chances of producing
10:38offspring. You want to compete. You want
10:40to build status. You want to fight off
10:42your rivals, high testosterone is your
10:45friend. Once you've accomplished your
10:47reproductive goal and you've caused a
10:49pregnancy and you want your offspring to
10:52survive, you want to be investing and
10:55nurturing that new baby. And this is
10:58what we saw in the men in the
10:59Philippines that as they were spending
11:01more time taking care of kids, they
11:03showed a sharper drop. And and then you
11:06typically see some rebound when the baby
11:10is getting older. And again, this is not
11:12unique to humans. We see it all over the
11:14animal kingdom.
11:16>> So during a pregnancy, something some
11:19chemical tells my body
11:21>> Yeah.
11:21>> that I need to make less testosterone
11:23even though the baby's not here yet.
11:24>> Yeah. It might just be your proximity to
11:26your pregnant partner.
11:28>> Interesting.
11:28>> Yeah. Our lab found expectant dads and
11:30expectant moms had correlated levels of
11:33testosterone during pregnancy. And the
11:36more strong that relationship was, the
11:39more dad showed a drop in testosterone
11:41after birth. But I want to caveat cuz I
11:44think a lot of men are really concerned
11:45about the idea that testosterone might
11:47drop. And I think we have a really
11:49strong narrative right now that
11:51testosterone sort of like equals
11:52successful masculinity.
11:55>> And masculinity is not about a
11:57particular hormone. It is about a body
11:59that is responsive to our goals and that
12:02sets us up to meet the demands of our
12:05environment. And so having a biology
12:09that fluctuates across the lifespan as
12:12our reproductive strategy shifts is
12:14really adaptive. We want to be flexible
12:17and that doesn't always mean maxed out
12:19testosterone. So high levels of
12:20testosterone actually decrease our sperm
12:23count and they are bad for our immune
12:28system.
12:29>> I think some men might be concerned that
12:31dropping testosterone might make them
12:33worse in the gym or it might make them
12:35less ambitious or less able to pursue
12:37their goals in life. Is there any truth
12:38to that? There's definitely a link
12:40between testosterone and men's,
12:44you know, muscle mass and their
12:47motivation, their drives, but these are
12:49not onetoone relationships. So the human
12:52hormone literature is messy and a lot of
12:55these are weak correlations. So
12:58testosterone doesn't necessarily equal
13:00success at work, for example. And high
13:03testosterone can get in men's way in in
13:05multiple ways. So there are links
13:07between men's testosterone levels and um
13:11relationship satisfaction in the couple
13:13relationship. So my lab did a study
13:16where we found that men who had
13:17relatively higher testosterone after
13:20their baby's birth had uh partners who
13:23were more dissatisfied in the
13:24relationship and reported more intimate
13:26partner aggression. So the dads
13:29themselves reported more parenting
13:30stress. So there's a little bit of a
13:32mixed bag of high testosterone and what
13:34it looks like. you want is to hit a
13:37sweet spot. You don't want testosterone
13:39levels that totally crash. My lab has
13:41also found that when testosterone is
13:43really low after a birth, men have
13:45higher postpartum depression symptoms.
13:48You don't necessarily want testosterone
13:50levels that are skyhigh either because
13:52that can cause problems in your intimate
13:54relationship and it can make it hard for
13:56you to switch into nurturing and
13:58parenting mode. So, the men who seem
14:00most successful in our study were men
14:02who had mid-range testosterone levels.
14:05that could be flexible and that could
14:08adapt to different life changes.
14:11>> And am I right in thinking that the more
14:13time you spend hands-on as a father in
14:15those studies that they did on men, the
14:18lower your testosterone will go?
14:20>> Yeah. So the longitudinal work in the
14:23Philippines found that when men spent
14:26more time changing babies, doing
14:29hands-on care, sharing a sleeping
14:31surface with babies, they had more of a
14:33testosterone drop. So the testosterone,
14:37the hormones are responsive to the
14:40context and to what we're doing. But
14:42testosterone does rebound, you know,
14:45after birth. So, it's not necessarily
14:47the case that testosterone is going to
14:49bottom out and it's going to stay low
14:50forever.
14:51>> You know, you said a second ago that men
14:53that had crashes to their testosterone
14:55during the pregnancy and thereafter um
14:58had a high likelihood of experiencing
15:00postpartum depression themselves.
15:02>> Does that are you implying that that
15:03means that there's an ideal amount of
15:05time and hands-onness that a father can
15:08spend with their child to make sure
15:10their testosterone hits that mid-range
15:12point?
15:12>> Yeah, it's it's a really good question.
15:14I mean, I don't know that we know for
15:16sure if there's like a dose of parenting
15:20involvement that sort of lends itself to
15:23an ideal amount of testosterone. It's
15:26hard to optimize your way out of these
15:28natural changes. I I don't want to
15:31discourage dads from being hands-on with
15:34their kids because they're worried
15:35they're going to pay some kind of
15:37physiological tax. I think it's more
15:39like make sure you're protecting your
15:41sleep, which we know is linked with
15:44overall health. Make sure you're getting
15:46time to exercise and to socialize, you
15:48know, to participate in activities that
15:51bring you joy. Like, those are ways to
15:54help mitigate your risk that I think
15:56will be more successful than trying to
15:58hit a particular hormone level.
16:00>> My brother is a year older than me and
16:02he has um three young kids under the age
16:04of seven
16:06>> now. Um they were actually just here.
16:08They just left. But um I noticed a
16:10remarkable difference in him when he
16:12when his wife Julia got pregnant.
16:15>> What did you notice?
16:16>> Just a a total shift in what he wanted
16:19out of life.
16:19>> Yeah.
16:20>> And so before growing up, I remember um
16:23one day seeing him on the computer
16:24figuring out which job would pay the
16:25most money. And he was very very smart.
16:27He he is very very smart.
16:29>> And he picked he sort of orientated his
16:31career towards the job that would make
16:32the most money.
16:33>> And then he was successful. He went to
16:35LSSE, got the job. Um, and then shortly
16:40after graduating university, met
16:42someone, they got pregnant unexpectedly.
16:44>> And I watched my brother go from someone
16:46who was like really striving for
16:48material goals.
16:49>> Yeah.
16:50>> To someone who suddenly placed the
16:53material goal immediately after. How do
16:55I retire and spend the maximum amount of
16:57my time with my kids?
16:58>> Yeah.
16:59>> His kids are number one above all
17:02anything else. And it's something I
17:03admire a lot about him. But the most
17:04remarkable thing as someone that's not
17:06gone through that transition cuz I've
17:07not had kids yet is just watching how
17:09profound the change was in him in terms
17:11of his stated goals and ambitions.
17:14>> Yeah.
17:14>> Like what is this?
17:15>> I'm so glad you said that cuz that's
17:16something I heard from so many of the
17:18fathers that I interviewed for the book
17:20is that you experience this profound
17:23shift in your values and your
17:24priorities. And a lot of men, you know,
17:27if you survey parents, you say, "What
17:29are the most meaningful priorities in
17:31your life?"
17:33Men are just as likely as women to say
17:35my kids.
17:36>> And I think fathers increasingly are
17:39recognizing that the parenting role is
17:40really central to their self-concept.
17:43And you know, like we're in a culture
17:46where I think it can be hard for men to
17:48find a sense of meaning and purpose and
17:51connection to other people. Being a
17:53parent can can give you that sense of
17:55meaning and purpose. M and so, you know,
17:57I think that's a really important
17:59framing around, you know, your
18:01testosterone level might change or your
18:03brain might shrink, like things that
18:05maybe sound a little scary and negative,
18:07but they're in the service of this
18:09larger goal, which is building a more
18:11meaningful life. And I think, you know,
18:14like a message to men and also to women,
18:17to moms and to dads, is anything that's
18:19worth doing is hard. Being a parent is
18:22really hard. You know, you are
18:24sacrificing yourself. You're losing your
18:26sleep. You are getting extra wrinkles.
18:29Ask me how I know. But you are
18:33benefiting from this sense of connection
18:35and purpose that you know it sounds like
18:37your brother has been totally
18:39transformed by. And I think we're in a
18:41lot of ways like selling young men on
18:43this message that you should be
18:45optimizing your bank account and your
18:48body fat percentage and you should be
18:50out there hustling as much as possible.
18:52And I think that can be a little bit of
18:53a hollow message because what we keep
18:55learning again and again from the
18:57longevity studies is that the quality of
19:00men's relationships is the best
19:01predictor of their well-being and old
19:03age. So men with healthy marriages, men
19:07who have positive relationships with
19:09their kids, those are the men who age
19:12well, not necessarily the men who've
19:14maxed out on, you know, riches or the
19:17perfect body fat score. It is is it's
19:21really a remarkable thing because when
19:23you as you look forward into becoming a
19:25parent, you often see the sacrifices
19:29you'll have to make. You hear about,
19:30okay, you're not going to sleep as much
19:32as you used to. You'll hear about um the
19:34anxieties of being a parent and loving
19:36something so much more than yourself and
19:37all these things. But that sort of
19:39profound psychological, biological,
19:41hormonal shift,
19:43>> you kind of just have to believe in it.
19:44>> Yeah. Yeah,
19:45>> people like tell you about it as if it's
19:46like a almost like a like almost like a
19:50religion. I say that because you have to
19:51have faith that the profound upside will
19:54be um worth the very obvious cost that
19:57you see parents, you know, the
19:58sacrifices they have to make.
19:59>> Yeah, I think that's exactly right cuz I
20:01think a lot of the downsides are really
20:03visible. Yeah.
20:04>> Like we've all been on a plane with a
20:05crying kid and we've seen the frantic
20:07parent trying to calm them down.
20:08>> We've all seen a tantrum in the grocery
20:10store, right? Like that that stuff is
20:12right in your face. But the upsides are
20:15sort of invisible. You know, just like
20:17the joy of seeing your child's face as
20:19they discover something new
20:21>> or, you know, getting to snuggle late at
20:23night and feeling this sense of
20:24closeness that you've never had, right?
20:26That like love that's bigger than
20:28yourself. Mhm.
20:29>> And I think it's important to speak
20:32about the benefits as well as the
20:34downsides because we humans crave
20:38connection and you know we crave care
20:43and I think becoming a parent is an
20:45opportunity to provide care on a scale
20:48that's hard to find in other ways.
20:49>> I also want to hear from you about how
20:51the mother's brain changes through
20:54pregnancy and beyond. Yeah. cuz Julia,
20:57so my brother's wife, she was here as
20:59well and she's remarkably different now
21:01that she's had these three beautiful
21:03children.
21:04>> And I was asking her last night cuz she
21:06was in the sort of corporate world
21:07before. I was saying, you know, on when
21:08they grow up and they leave home, which
21:10again is probably the worst thing you
21:11could probably say to a mother who has
21:13three young beautiful children and who's
21:14already like anxious that someday
21:16they're going to
21:17>> fly the nest. I was like, what what what
21:19will then be in the place of these three
21:21kids in your life? Would you want to go
21:22back to like the corporate world or do
21:24you want to do something else? and how
21:25has it reordered your sense of meaning?
21:27But tell me, how does the mother's brain
21:29change?
21:30>> Yeah, the mother's brain changes really
21:31profoundly as well. Moms are losing
21:33about 2 and 12% of their brain volume
21:35from before pregnancy to after birth.
21:39Dads in our studies, we found they lose
21:40about 1% of their brain volume. So,
21:43similar pattern in similar parts of the
21:45brain, but the magnitude is different
21:48and there's more variability in the
21:50dads.
21:50>> And how did you conduct these studies?
21:52What was the methodology? So, we
21:54recruited a bunch of firsttime parents.
21:57These were uh all couples that we
21:59recruited during pregnancy.
22:01>> Our only rule was that you had to be
22:03cohabiting and you had to be planning to
22:06continue cohabiting after the birth
22:07because we really wanted to capture the
22:10dads and get their experience, you know,
22:12being in proximity to their babies. And
22:15so, we brought them into the lab. We
22:17asked them every question we could think
22:19of. We sampled their blood, their
22:20saliva, their hair. Uh we had them fight
22:25with each other on camera. We scanned
22:27the men's brains and then about 6 months
22:30after their baby was born, we brought
22:32them back into the lab, blood, saliva,
22:35hair. This time we got a breast milk
22:36sample. We got a sample of baby poop and
22:39we had them fight again and we scan the
22:40dad's brains again.
22:41>> You had them fight again.
22:42>> We had them fight again. We wanted to
22:44see how do couples communicate with each
22:47other and does that change across the
22:49transition to parenthood and also what
22:52communication styles are going to
22:54predict better couple level adaptation
22:57to becoming parents.
22:59>> How did you get them to fight? I need to
23:00make sure I don't do that.
23:01>> So we gave them a whole list of
23:03different topics. We said these are
23:04topics that couples commonly argue about
23:07which are hot button issues for you and
23:09your partner. And so we had both the mom
23:11and the dad fill these out
23:12independently. And then we went through
23:14and we saw what are the issues that both
23:17people are endorsing and we said we want
23:20you to talk about this issue. Don't hold
23:22back. We're going to give you 15 minutes
23:24sit in this room and we, you know, watch
23:27them talk through it. They weren't, you
23:30know, like punching each other, but the
23:32conversations were often contentious
23:34because they were talking about issues
23:35that were frequently objects of
23:37conflict.
23:38>> Mhm. Okay. And what did you discover?
23:41>> So, we discovered that when couples
23:43fought more negatively with each other,
23:45they subsequently reported more
23:47difficult birth experiences.
23:49And it's interesting because birth is a
23:52time in which moms need a lot of support
23:55and the partner is often a primary
23:57person who's in the room providing that
23:59support. So, when couples have, you
24:01know, sort of like a like a toxic
24:03difficult relationship, that can really
24:06color mom's experience of the birth.
24:09Are you saying that because the person
24:12that they fought with and don't have a
24:15good conflict resolution strategy with
24:18it was in the room, they had a bad birth
24:21experience or did something actually
24:23happen in the birth experience? Did like
24:25the the husband make a comment like
24:27>> Yeah. No, I mean we didn't record their
24:29conversations during the birth, but we
24:31actually did get the charts from the
24:33hospital or the birth center after the
24:35baby delivered and we looked at
24:36complications. We looked at how
24:38medically complex the birth was. And we
24:40found that when couples fought more
24:42negatively and less positively during
24:44pregnancy,
24:45>> during pregnancy
24:46>> during pregnancy, so you know, they're
24:48about 6 months into pregnancy. A few
24:50months later, when it's time to deliver
24:52the infant, they had more medically
24:54complex births. And they also appraised
24:56the births as more stressful. So the
24:59conclusion is it's thinking about the
25:01couple relationship is actually
25:02important when we think about birth.
25:04There's been a huge sea change about how
25:08we deliver babies. You know, like it
25:11used to be that men were never in the
25:13birthing room. So, babies were t
25:16typically delivered with the assistance
25:18of a female midwife and female
25:20relatives. And it really wasn't until
25:22birth moved into hospitals in, you know,
25:25the late 19th century, suddenly you had
25:27a male physician who's presiding over
25:29the birth. And then really it wasn't
25:31until the 60s and 70s that dads started
25:34to advocate for their inclusion in the
25:36birth room. They said, you know, we
25:38don't want to miss this. We want to be
25:40present. But because historically dads
25:43have really not been part of the birth
25:44experience, we haven't necessarily
25:47thought about the couple relationship as
25:49a place to intervene. If we want to make
25:51birth go smoothly, we actually want to
25:54be thinking about dad's mental health
25:56and we want to be thinking about coup's
25:58relationship functioning because those
26:00things might actually affect mom's
26:02psychological experience at birth.
26:04>> So you're saying don't fight during
26:06pregnancy.
26:06>> Yeah. Well, or just find more effective
26:08ways to fight. You want to figure out
26:10ways to
26:12calm each other down, validate each
26:14other, not necessarily, you know, amp
26:17each other up and get into these really
26:19negative spirals. I guess I want to push
26:21on a point of nuance here because I'm
26:23concerned that
26:24>> expectant parents might be looking at
26:26each other right now as they listen to
26:28this episode. I imagine we've got a lot
26:29of expectant parents listening and
26:31they're thinking, "Fuck, we had a fight
26:32last week and we got the birth coming up
26:35in a couple of months."
26:36>> Yeah, there's nothing wrong with
26:38fighting. In fact, I'm a big believer
26:40that it's good to air out your concerns
26:42and grievances. What we were looking at
26:45specifically were negative conflict
26:47behaviors.
26:48>> Okay? things like criticizing, showing
26:50contempt,
26:52um stonewalling, so like refusing to
26:54listen to see the other person's
26:56perspective. Actually, one of my really
26:58smart grad students is working on a
27:00project right now where he looks he's
27:02looking at like what is kind of like a
27:05magic ingredient that helps couples
27:07shift from being negative with each
27:09other to being positive with each other
27:11during these conflict tasks. He's like
27:13literally looking at the same task and
27:16he's finding the ingredient is
27:17validation. So just conveying to your
27:21partner, I understand what you're
27:23saying. I see where you're coming from.
27:26I'm right here with you. I get it. Like
27:29those kinds of behaviors make a huge
27:31difference because they sort of take
27:33like a lot of the tension and
27:35frustration out of the conversation. As
27:37soon as you feel really heard by your
27:39partner, you you know the wind is a
27:41little bit out of your sails for being
27:43furious.
27:44>> I sometimes worry that a lot of people
27:47are waiting for perfection
27:51>> before they step into the next season of
27:54parenthood. Maybe I'm guilty of this
27:56myself a little bit to some degree. I
27:58think me and my partner talk about this
27:59sometimes, me and my fiance about like
28:02it doesn't feel like there's ever going
28:03to be a perfect time to have kids.
28:04>> Yeah. when you look at the nature of my
28:06life and her life, you go, "Look, crazy
28:07crazy schedules. Um, there really is no
28:10time right now." Um, but I reflect and
28:12go, "Well, everything that I do now,
28:14including this podcast, at the time that
28:16I did the first episode, there was no
28:18time, but I made the time."
28:20>> Um, and I sometimes worry that as as
28:23young people, we are in a culture that
28:26is waiting for um more perfection than
28:30than is coming in terms of our romantic
28:33partner or our circumstances. And of
28:34course there is a a fundamental sort of
28:37basis of security that everybody needs
28:38to be able to bring um a life into the
28:41world and often people don't have that.
28:43>> Yeah.
28:43>> Um but I'm wondering what your thoughts
28:45are on that.
28:46>> Yeah. I mean I had this conversation
28:47with my grad school adviser. I said I
28:49would love to have kids. What do you
28:51recommend? When is the right time? And
28:53she laughed and she said there is no
28:56right time. You just have to do it. You
28:58just have to make it work because once
28:59the baby shows up, you'll figure it out.
29:02And that was tremendously good advice
29:04and and you know led me to start having
29:06kids within the next few years after
29:09that conversation.
29:10>> Really?
29:10>> Yeah. Yeah. I was like, "Okay, I guess
29:12it's I'm just going to go for it. I'm
29:13going to make it work." And it was hard,
29:15>> but we did in fact figure it out. And I
29:18think, you know, when you optimize
29:20everything and you feel like you need
29:23the perfect conditions, I need to own a
29:25house. It has to be this many bedrooms.
29:28I need, you know, this level of
29:30stability. Yes. All those things are
29:32terrific, but historically, you know,
29:35people had kids young and you know,
29:39often they found that having kids gave
29:41them a really strong impetus to get
29:44those things together. We used to think
29:45about having kids as like a cornerstone
29:47of a life. It's like a foundation. You
29:49know, you do that and then you sort of
29:51build your career and everything else.
29:52Now we kind of think of it as like a
29:54capstone. It's like your crowning
29:56achievement. you've got everything
29:58perfectly set and now it's time to have
30:00kids. And I think the problem with that
30:02is first of all, our biology doesn't
30:04always agree. You know, we can sort of
30:06lose our our best window in which to
30:07have kids. And I also think like having
30:11kids isn't just an individual
30:13responsibility. We need to be thinking
30:15about it as it's a collective
30:17responsibility. It's societal. We are an
30:19alo parenting species. So what that
30:22means, we're we're cooperative breeders.
30:24We raise our kids in community. That's
30:26how we evolved. That's if you look at
30:27hunter gatherers, that's how they raised
30:30their kids. We are not designed to do
30:32this in isolation. And and I think, you
30:35know, when you think about like what
30:37does a healthy society provide for
30:38parents to reduce stress, right? Like
30:41generous maternity and paternity leaves,
30:44you know, job protections, child care.
30:46Like I'm a big believer in having strong
30:48policies that make it easier to have
30:51kids
30:52>> because I think in the absence of those
30:53policies you feel like it's your job to
30:56get everything completely lined up and
30:59that time might never come especially
31:01not in a you know tempestuous economy
31:04>> and I think we're seeing some of the
31:06symptoms of exactly what you've
31:07described there. A landmark 2024 study
31:10published in the Lancet projects that by
31:12the year 20100,
31:1597%
31:16of all countries and territories will
31:19have fertility rates too low to sustain
31:21their populations. The global fertility
31:23rate has plummeted from an average of
31:25five children per woman in 1950 to just
31:272.2 today. According to the CDC and Pew
31:30Research data, the US total fertility
31:33rate just hit an all-time recorded low
31:35of 1.6. This is far below the
31:39replacement rate of 2.1 children per
31:42couple, I guess.
31:43>> Yeah.
31:44>> Required to keep the population stable
31:46without immigration. CDC data shows
31:49total US birth rates dropped yet again
31:51by 1% in 2025, falling to roughly 3.6
31:55million babies, continuing a nearly two
31:58decade downfall slide since the Great
32:00Recession. And lastly, because the
32:02fertility rate is crashing in
32:03high-income nations, but remaining
32:05comparatively high in specific lowincome
32:08regions, it is predicted a massive shift
32:10in human demographics will take place.
32:12And by 201, 100, one in every two
32:16children born on the planet will be born
32:18in subsaharan Africa.
32:21>> It's all quite um all quite shocking to
32:24hear, isn't it? I think
32:25>> Well, I mean,
32:26>> inconceivable. I thought we'd growing up
32:28everyone was talking about uh too too
32:29many people being on the planet,
32:30>> right? There was this narrative of the
32:32population bomb which was this really
32:34popular theory in the '60s that we had
32:36too many children.
32:37>> Yeah.
32:38>> And we needed to, you know, adopt
32:40contraception and we needed to prevent
32:42too many children from being born. We
32:44all took that too literally and maybe
32:46overcorrected cuz now you have this
32:48population drop. And it's concerning
32:51because what you don't want is a society
32:53with what's called an inverse age curve
32:56which means that you have many more old
32:58people than young people
33:00>> because you know then you don't have
33:02enough caregivers for the older people.
33:04You don't have enough people to sustain
33:06the economy.
33:07>> You don't have innovators. You don't
33:10have you know the folks who are sort of
33:12building your future. You've depopulated
33:14that and you have a very aging
33:16population and that can create a lot of
33:18instability.
33:20So I I think we need to be thinking
33:22about, you know, how do we make
33:25parenting easier and more
33:28[clears throat] desirable for young
33:29people because I think that we've
33:31managed to market it as an [laughter]
33:34undesirable choice.
33:35>> How does how do we make it easier and
33:37more desirable for young people?
33:39>> So I think part of it is the
33:40conversation we're having right now
33:42where we're talking about the meaning,
33:43the purpose, the benefits that you can
33:45get from your relationships with others.
33:48I think that we need a cultural reframe
33:50around care to raise the value of care.
33:53One of the reasons I'm interested in
33:55fatherhood is because I think seeing men
33:58as talented caregivers kind of unlocks
34:01this appreciation we have for the
34:03importance of care.
34:05>> The shift you described your brother
34:07undergoing where he went from
34:08transactional, how can I make the most
34:10money to my kids matter, how can I spend
34:13the most time with them?
34:14>> Yeah. I think is a is a really valuable
34:17shift in purpose that you know at scale
34:21would make societies healthier and more
34:23empathetic.
34:24>> So there's like two things I think are
34:26worth saying here from my perspective.
34:27The first is I think it's important that
34:30we express the fact that a not everybody
34:32can have kids because of you know
34:34reasons beyond their control. I think
34:36the second thing is not everybody wants
34:38or should should want to have kids you
34:39know depending on their circumstance.
34:41Um, and the third thing is that I do
34:45feel in my personal circumstances, um,
34:48when I think about what I want from my
34:49life, again, this is about me, I do feel
34:51tremendously positively jealous of his
34:54life.
34:55>> And that's it's a strange thing because,
34:57you know, he has a couple more gray
34:58hairs than me, even though he's only a
34:59year older. So, you know, everything in
35:01life is a trade-off. But the like deep
35:03sense of meaning and purpose that even I
35:05experience when those kids are here like
35:06they were at my house for the last
35:08couple of weeks and it's it's everything
35:10seems yeah incomparable in in terms of
35:13like meaning to these beautiful
35:17children.
35:18>> Yeah. They're just endlessly curious and
35:21fascinating
35:22and you know there's very little you can
35:24get from scrolling on a screen that you
35:27know that to me is as fulfilling as what
35:30you can get from watching a baby learn
35:32something.
35:33>> It used to be that working for yourself
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37:54Am I right in thinking that parents have
38:00different brains as it relates to
38:03the brain being protected?
38:06>> Yeah. So there's this really interesting
38:08emerging body of research suggesting
38:10that being a parent is neuroprotective
38:12in late life. So there are studies, the
38:15UK bioank is the biggest repository of
38:19brain scans from people in their 50s and
38:2160s and they find that both men and
38:24women who report having had more kids
38:26have markers of a younger looking brain
38:28age. So if you do a machine learning
38:32algorithm that adjusts for your
38:34chronological age and then you know
38:37takes what the scans looks like and uses
38:39that to estimate what they think your
38:41brain age is. You look relatively
38:43younger when you report having had more
38:45kids. It seems like the greatest benefit
38:47is at two or three kids. After that it
38:49kind of levels off. You don't
38:50necessarily get a big benefit from
38:53having had six kids compared to having
38:54had two. But it suggests that there is
38:58something about the practice that you
39:00get to your social brain and to your
39:02empathetic brain that is really
39:04beneficial to your, you know, brain
39:07plasticity and functioning later in
39:09life.
39:10>> That's quite surprising because you'd
39:11think, you know, parents go through a
39:12lot of stress having lots of kids. So
39:14you you'd assume that they'd be sleeping
39:16less. You'd assume that would be bad for
39:18the brain. But you're telling me there's
39:19evidence that it's actually protective
39:20to be a parent of two or three kids.
39:22>> Yeah. I think it's healthy to think
39:24about the short-term cost and then the
39:26long-term benefit.
39:27>> Okay.
39:27>> So, you know, like there are plenty of
39:30studies that have found that moment to
39:32moment, parents of young kids say that
39:35they're less happy.
39:36>> Mhm.
39:36>> They're more tired, they're more
39:38stressed, they have more going on. We've
39:39talked about the, you know, brain
39:41changes, hormone changes. But then, you
39:44know, if you look longer in later life,
39:47people will report more fulfillment. So,
39:50it's like you're you're doing something
39:52that's not very fun. It's taxing. It can
39:54be very isolating and yet you're kind of
39:57reaping this longer term benefit in
39:59terms of the power of those
40:01relationships and that sense of
40:02connection with other people. That
40:04social integration and that practice
40:07trying to understand others that is
40:09really beneficial like it's a glue for
40:11creating good relationships.
40:13>> What is it exactly about being a parent
40:14though that's going to make my brain
40:17more protected when I get older? You
40:19know, one of the theories I had was that
40:21because, you know, when those three kids
40:22were here, they had me playing all kinds
40:24of bloody games. They wanted to play
40:25hide-and-seek for seven hours. And it is
40:27somewhat, you know, actually picking
40:28them up all the bloody time cuz there's
40:30three of them. And one of them's eight.
40:32I can't really pick her up easily. The
40:33other two I can get them up and then she
40:35starts complaining that I've not picked
40:36her up. So, I have to pick her up and
40:37I'm like, "Wow, what a workout."
40:39>> It is both a cognitive and a physical
40:41workout [laughter]
40:42>> when they're around.
40:43>> Yeah. Is it that like I'm building up
40:45brain reserve because they're
40:47challenging me and having tantrums and
40:48they're wanting to play and they're
40:50engaging me all the time? Is that why
40:52it's protective?
40:52>> I think it's like sudoko for your social
40:55cognition, right? It's like you're doing
40:57crossword puzzles but instead of like,
41:00you know, the sort of practice that
41:01you're getting for putting words
41:03together, you're getting practice
41:04understanding people's minds and
41:06intentions and communicating and
41:07responding to them and being sensitive
41:09to them. And all of that is putting you
41:11through a workout and it's also a full
41:13body workout because kids are really
41:15embodied.
41:16>> And there's [clears throat] actually
41:17interesting research that dads
41:18especially play in these physically
41:21demanding kind of vigorous ways with
41:24>> Exactly. it was my job. My job was to
41:25pick them up and throw them as high as I
41:27possibly can.
41:27>> Yeah. And kids love that.
41:29>> Yeah. And then me now. And then like I
41:31threw that and then it's like me now.
41:32And then I just I was like I'm going to
41:34lose weeks throwing these kids in the
41:35air. But also I'm going to break
41:36something.
41:37>> Yeah. I mean, I think my husband never
41:39had to see the chiropractor until, you
41:40know, he became a dad and all of a
41:42sudden you're throwing them up in the
41:43air all the time. But that kind of play
41:45is really good for kids because it's
41:48testing their limits. It's challenging
41:50them and it's actually helping them
41:51build their risk tolerance. So like
41:54think about like the the moment of fear
41:56that you have when you're thrown up in
41:57the air and then the relief when you're
41:59caught. like
42:00>> you're basically practicing your emotion
42:02regulation skills on a small scale so
42:05that when you're thrown into a scary
42:07situation at school, you have a stronger
42:10sense of confidence.
42:11>> My other theory around why having
42:13children would be neuroprotective for
42:15the brain was around oxytocin.
42:17>> And I say that cuz I sat with Robert
42:19Waldinger who's done that sort of that
42:21long Harvard study on human happiness.
42:23And the conclusion is that one of the
42:25single biggest predictors of longevity
42:27is whether you have strong
42:28relationships. And again, I I had
42:31another scientist say to me that
42:32oxytocin, the bonding chemical, is
42:34neuroprotective.
42:36>> So I imagine having three children is
42:39going to equal a lot of oxytocin, which
42:40is going to equal some
42:41neuroprotectiveness.
42:43>> I mean, we are social animals. We are
42:45designed to bond with each other. We
42:48pair bond. We bond with our kids. That's
42:51really healthy. I love Waldinger
42:53studies. I cite those in the book when I
42:55talk about, you know, if you really want
42:57to think about what creates longevity
42:59and well-being late in life, look at
43:01your relationships. And, you know, I
43:03feel like he shows that really well with
43:05this 80year study that he's been doing.
43:07There are all these like brain changes
43:09and hormone changes that are designed to
43:11facilitate to help us build those bonds.
43:14And that's a lot of what is sort of
43:15going off in early parenthood is like we
43:18are sort of reorganizing to become more
43:21sensitive, more attentive caregivers.
43:23It's not like, you know, some people are
43:26just destined to be great parents and
43:27some people aren't. It's like as we put
43:29in the experience, as we get the
43:31practice, we put in the reps, we're
43:34building that brain and body that helps
43:36make us really great sensitive
43:37caregivers. And then that I think can
43:39can transfer over to our other
43:41relationships, too. If you've learned
43:43how to calm a kid down from a tantrum,
43:45you are probably going to be a very
43:47effective manager at work. If you have,
43:50you know, negotiate with three kids who
43:52all want to pick you up at different
43:54times, you know, you're probably going
43:55to be a better problem solver in your
43:57couple relationship. Like, those are
43:58just skills that you're building that
44:01can cross domains.
44:02>> I was just looking at some of the the
44:03research on this and it says that
44:05research shows that oxytocin actively
44:07downregulates harmful pro-inflammatory
44:09cytoines in the brain. It acts as it
44:12acts on the brain's immune cells um
44:15making toxic inflammatory responses
44:18lower. And studies on aging mice
44:20demonstrated that long-term oxytocin
44:22treatment concurrently enhanced the
44:24brain's plasticity which directly
44:26improved learning and made them better
44:30with memory as they aged. And in terms
44:32of Alzheimer's, in animal models of
44:34Alzheimer's, oxytocin has been shown to
44:36reduce the toxicity of amalloid beta
44:38plaques, the toxic protein clumps that
44:41are the hallmark of Alzheimer's disease,
44:43which is fascinating. And that's um
44:45that's the chemical that is produced
44:46from bonding.
44:47>> Yeah, that's a pair bonding chemical.
44:48It's it's an affiliative neuropeptide.
44:51So, it sort of helps us shore up our
44:53social bonds.
44:54>> Touch is really important, isn't it?
44:56Yeah.
44:56>> You know, it's such an important thing.
44:57>> Yeah. My lab found actually that when
44:59dads engage in more physical touch that
45:01there's a type of touch that's called
45:03proprioceptive touch which is exactly
45:05what you were just describing like
45:07picking babies up moving them around
45:09playing with them like in space. It's
45:11that sort of like vigorous touch that we
45:13often associate with fathers.
45:15>> When dads did more of that they
45:16subsequently had higher oxytocin levels
45:18when we did a blood draw in our lab and
45:20that's been found in some other labs as
45:22well.
45:22>> Do you know Erica Commissar he's been on
45:24my show?
45:24>> I do. One of the things she says which
45:26has been a little bit controversial is
45:28that she's argued that placing children
45:29under the age of three in daycare causes
45:31profound separation trauma and elevates
45:34cortisol to dangerous levels. So she's
45:36quite against daycare.
45:38>> I so I politely disagree. I both my kids
45:41went to daycare where they thrived and I
45:43am a big believer in this idea of alo
45:46parenting which is this idea that we
45:48collectively raise kids. We are designed
45:51to help each other out and share care.
45:54>> [clears throat]
45:54>> And so the model of single parent,
45:56single child, isolated in a suburban
45:58home is a very weird model in the
46:01context of human history. And so I think
46:03this idea that, you know, we can't
46:05participate in shared care or that kids
46:07can't do well in group care settings to
46:10me is a little exaggerated. I do think
46:12it's very true that it's about timing
46:14and when is the right window to, you
46:17know, put kids in group care settings.
46:20it it's you know ideally when kids can
46:23benefit from some social interaction
46:25which is usually a little older in
46:26toddlerhood. So you know 18 months and
46:29beyond. Very young babies often do
46:32better when they have a single
46:34caregiver. They have a more stable
46:36attachment figure that they can bond
46:38with. But babies can form really strong
46:41attachments with their dads with a
46:44caregiver. It doesn't necessarily have
46:46to be the case that mom is the only
46:49person that needs to be present for
46:52every moment of an infant's life because
46:54I think that model is not terribly
46:56sustainable for parents and parenting
47:00stress is really bad for kids. You know,
47:02and this goes back to the birth rate
47:03conversation. I think we need to be
47:05thinking about parenting in ways that
47:07are sustainable that allow us to get
47:09help. And we also, you know, if we
47:12really think that we don't want kids in
47:15a lot of early child care, we need to
47:17support that with universal paid
47:21parental leave, which is not available
47:23for most parents in the United States.
47:25So, a lot of moms are coming up against
47:28a reality that doesn't fit with what
47:31some of the parenting gurus are telling
47:33them is the only way to raise their
47:34kids. And I think that creates a lot of
47:37anxiety. If you think about the early
47:38phases of a child coming into the world
47:40like year one, year two, year three, is
47:42there any differences in when either
47:44parent plays a different type of role?
47:47>> There's a little bit of difference and
47:49it sort of depends on, you know, what
47:51the parent styles are and what the kid's
47:53situation is. But there's a chapter in
47:56my book where I talked with Richard
47:58Reeves, who's done a lot of great work
48:00on masculinity and manhood. And he says
48:04he thinks dad should be able to get
48:06paternity leave up to their kid's 18th
48:08birthday because a lot of the time dads
48:11find that their sort of best
48:12relationship with their kid happens
48:14later in childhood, even in adolescence.
48:17You know, he talked about taking his
48:18kids on trips, teaching his sons how to
48:21drive. And so I think like dads can kind
48:23of come in at different points along a
48:27kid's development and provide a lot of
48:29value. I think early in infancy if mom
48:32is breastfeeding it's important for the
48:36baby to get that sort of regular access
48:37to milk. Um, you know, of course moms
48:40can pump, dads can do feeding, but it is
48:43often a source of challenge for couples
48:46when a baby's first born and dads feel
48:49like mom has a really big biological
48:52head start. You know, she has had the
48:55pregnancy, she's been able to build a
48:57bond with the child. Breastfeeding is
48:59like this magical formula that she can
49:01give the baby to um help soothe. And so
49:04I think a lot of dads struggle to find
49:06their place in early parenthood in the
49:09first year or two because they're like
49:11what am I supposed to do? I you know it
49:13takes a little while for dads to kind of
49:15come online
49:16>> as parents. You know dads need I think
49:19some space and opportunity to figure
49:21things out and you often get into this
49:24dynamic where mom is kind of the default
49:27parent in the early years and dads are
49:29waiting for their instructions. when
49:31you've gone out on the book train,
49:32you've spoken to both fathers and
49:34mothers. What is the like central point
49:36of contention that you discover?
49:38>> It's funny. I was just at a friend's
49:40book club meeting and it was a mix of
49:42couples. It was moms and dads. And the
49:44thing that they all got into was this
49:46concept of maternal gatekeeping and sort
49:49of male malingering, which is this like
49:52double-edged kind of. And so maternal
49:54gatekeeping, it's a somewhat
49:55controversial term, but it just refers
49:58to anytime a mom consciously or
50:01unconsciously sort of puts up a
50:03roadblock to dad's fully participating
50:05in parenting. And it could be as simple
50:08as the baby's fussy and crying and mom
50:11says, "Hand him to me. You know, I know
50:14what to do." But over time, that kind of
50:17kind of spiral into a pattern of mom
50:19becomes the authority figure. dad is
50:22seen as like the bumbling hapless kind
50:25of appendage and and dads ultimately
50:28feel like their contributions aren't
50:30valued or you know mom doesn't really
50:32want them to have a lot of independent
50:34time maybe it's cuz mom doesn't trust
50:35the dad right which is an area where I
50:38think having communication and making
50:41sure there's trust before the birth is
50:43really important but you know the flip
50:45side of maternal gatekeeping is what's
50:47called weaponized incompetence or
50:49husbandly mlingering
50:51which is when you know dad who's a
50:54totally competent let's say project
50:56manager at work who can handle lots of
50:58different spreadsheets and a whole
51:00workflow suddenly doesn't know what to
51:02put in the diaper bag or you know when
51:05when we were at the book club meeting
51:06one of the moms was saying their baby
51:09was a couple days old there was a giant
51:11diaper blowout and she had gone out for
51:13a 10-minute walk and her husband called
51:15to be like what do I do she's like I've
51:17been a parent for exactly 2 days that's
51:19exactly as long as you I No idea. You
51:21got to figure it out. He's like, "But
51:22the poop's on the wall." She's like,
51:24"I'm sorry. You You can use the wipes."
51:27You know, that same husband, she told me
51:29later, was in charge of packing lunches.
51:31And a certain point, he said, "Do you
51:33give the kids anything but chicken
51:35nuggets?" She said, "Well, there's
51:37fruit. You can cut up some avocado, you
51:40know, like throw stuff in." So, I think
51:42that is sort of like when dads act like
51:44they just have no idea and it's mom's
51:46job to solve the problem. Mhm.
51:48>> And so I think a lot of moms are sort of
51:49frustrated with what they see as that
51:51dynamic happening. At the same time,
51:53I've talked to a lot of dads who said,
51:55"I would love to have done more, but my
51:58wife insisted on organizing everything,
52:01scheduling everything, telling me what
52:02to do. I never felt like I got an
52:05opportunity to fully step up." So, I
52:07think that's an area where couples
52:10really need to iron some of this out
52:12even before the baby comes. Mhm.
52:15>> Who's going to do what and how are we
52:17going to balance it in a way that we
52:19both get some ownership, we both have
52:20some opportunity and we can trust each
52:23other.
52:24>> Talking about that parents often report
52:27is that post pregnancy there is a change
52:29in their relationship and intimacy. Have
52:32you done any studies on that?
52:33>> Yes. And that is one of the most robust
52:36findings in transition to parenthood
52:38research is that there is a drop in
52:40couple relationship satisfaction often
52:42around the birth of a new baby. And it's
52:45not surprising. You take two people who
52:47are having fun together, you sleepd
52:49deprive them, you give them a lot of
52:52extra responsibility, and then a baby
52:54who's crying and demanding that you know
52:56they get out of bed at multiple times
52:58during the night. So, you often get a
53:00lot of conflict around who's going to do
53:03what. Um, you know, who's more connected
53:06to the baby and and you know, I think
53:10it's one of those things where
53:12forewarned is fore armed. If couples
53:15know that this is going to be a risky
53:16time for their relationship, they can do
53:18more to shore up their communication
53:21before a baby's born.
53:22>> Have you ever quantified how different
53:24the relationship is on the other side of
53:26giving birth? We have definitely given
53:28lots of different couple relationship
53:31questionnaires and we've measured them
53:32and we've looked at that dip and we've
53:34seen that there is in fact a
53:36statistically significant drop in
53:38relationship quality
53:40>> and sex life.
53:41>> And sex life. Yeah. I mean because of
53:43course, right? Like you've got an extra
53:46person in your bed a lot of the time or
53:48near your bed.
53:50>> And if you have delivered the baby
53:54vaginally, there's also a lot of stuff
53:56that's sore and might need to get
53:58stitched up and even more so if it was a
54:00C-section birth.
54:01>> And does that at some point go back to
54:03pre-birth levels in terms of
54:06relationship satisfaction?
54:07>> Yeah. So there is a lot of variability
54:09in couples relationship trajectories. So
54:11there are some couples for whom
54:13relationship quality continues to dip
54:16and often the relationship dissolves.
54:19There are also couples who report they
54:20have a better quality relationship after
54:23having parented together. You know
54:25there's a richer relationship like I
54:27feel that with my husband like I
54:29appreciate him so much because I've seen
54:31him negotiate with terrorists in the
54:33form of our young children. So, you
54:35know, I think like how well couples fare
54:39is going to diverge sort of depending on
54:42how well they can kind of muscle through
54:45some of those early years.
54:47>> Earlier on, you said that men experience
54:49postpartum depression
54:52um after the birth of their child
54:54sometimes. And that's quite a
54:58unconventional thing to hear.
54:59>> When we think about postpartum
55:00depression, typically it's in the
55:02context of what the woman is
55:03experiencing. Yeah.
55:04>> Um, so it's quite interesting to hear
55:06that that is a big issue for men as
55:08well.
55:09>> So technically postpartum depression
55:11just means depression that occurs after
55:13the birth of a baby. That's what
55:14postpartum means. So that term
55:17postpartum doesn't necessarily mean that
55:20you know it's the person that's
55:21delivered the baby. It just means this
55:22is the time period after birth. And
55:25there's some evidence that dad's
55:27prevalence rate for depression, so in
55:30new dads, it's about twice that of the
55:32general population. So if you look at
55:35non-fathering men, they have about half
55:37the risk of depression as new dads. So
55:39there's a big uptick in depression risk.
55:41That doesn't mean that every new dad is
55:43depressed. And new dads have lower
55:46depression rates than new moms, just to
55:48be clear. But it's also not a
55:50competition. It's not a zero- sum game.
55:52And I think there can be a lot of
55:54constrnation understandably from moms
55:57who feel like we have fought for the
56:00term postpartum depression to be widely
56:02recognized by the medical community.
56:05We've advocated for this. Now that we've
56:08succeeded, men are sort of trying to
56:10take it over. And I'm sympathetic to
56:12that argument. And a lot of moms have
56:13said, "Why don't we call it paranatal
56:15depression?" Fine. I think that's
56:16totally okay. Parinatal just means
56:18around the birth of a baby. And that's
56:21legitimate, too. But if you think about
56:23what are the risk factors for
56:24depression, either in moms or in dads,
56:27like in, you know, the period following
56:29a baby's birth, it's a combination of
56:32factors. It's multi-etermined, it's
56:34hormone changes, it's sleep changes,
56:37it's identity changes, it's relationship
56:40changes, like relationship conflict,
56:42changes to, you know, how you show up at
56:45work, to your extended family. it can
56:47reawaken childhood traumas that were
56:49unresolved about how you yourself were
56:51parented. So all of those things are
56:54coming to the four and you're
56:57preoccupied by what can be very
56:59isolating and repetitive care for a
57:01young baby and it creates kind of a
57:03perfect storm of mental health risk.
57:05>> You've um you've you've studied cortisol
57:08changes um in couples, right?
57:11>> Yeah.
57:11>> And how they and how their their
57:12cortisol interacts with each other. Is
57:15there a biological divorce predictor in
57:18terms of a specific way a couple's
57:19cortisol syncs up or clashes in that
57:21sort of first year of parenting that
57:23tells you if their marriage is going to
57:25fail before they realize it themselves?
57:27>> Yeah. So, I have looked at cortisol
57:30interconnection in my lab between
57:32couples. So, how cortisol levels become
57:34correlated over time. I found that when
57:37couples had really strongly linked
57:39levels of cortisol, they reported lower
57:43marital satisfaction. And you'd think
57:45like, okay, they've got more similar
57:46hormones, that's probably a good thing.
57:48We found the opposite in our lab. And I
57:51think it's because you don't actually
57:53want to be contagious to other people's
57:56stress. When one person is really
57:58stressed, it's helpful to have a partner
58:00who can modulate that, who can calm you
58:02down. So you don't necessarily want to
58:05be exacerbating like amplifying the
58:08stress state.
58:08>> Interesting. This is fascinating.
58:11>> There are some other labs that have
58:12found that especially in a transition to
58:14parenthood context, more synchrony in
58:18cortisol can actually be a good thing if
58:20you're looking from prenatal to
58:22postpartum.
58:23>> But outside of child birth.
58:25>> Yes. So, this is interesting for me
58:28because I was having a conversation with
58:29someone the other day and she was
58:31telling me that she emotionally is a
58:34little bit more variant than her
58:36partner.
58:36>> Yeah.
58:36>> And I was expressing a similar sentiment
58:38saying that I think actually the reason
58:39why my relationship works with my
58:42fianceé Melanie is because
58:44>> Mel is a little bit emotionally variant
58:46and I'm kind of the like prefrontal
58:49cortex sounding board
58:51>> that kind of brings us back down. Yeah.
58:53>> So her emotional variance is super
58:55useful because she's almost like a
58:56threat detector
58:57>> in every regard. So if our relationship
58:59is drifting a little bit or if we're
59:00just she'll she'll know fast.
59:02>> Whereas I take a little bit more time to
59:04like to sort of have empathy to these
59:06kinds of like shifts in our
59:08relationship. She's like very in in
59:10tune.
59:11>> It's like a sixth sense she has.
59:13>> Yeah.
59:13>> However, sometimes that can mean some
59:17things are harder to deal with
59:18>> and maybe she's more prone to worry
59:20sometimes. Mhm.
59:21>> And I' I've often felt actually because
59:23she's expressed this to me, she's
59:25expressed the gratitude of me being able
59:27to like bring her back to a place of
59:30calm.
59:30>> Yeah.
59:31>> I've often felt that that's kind of like
59:32my job.
59:33>> Yeah.
59:33>> And I've often thought that that our
59:35relationship works because you do have
59:36two different types of people.
59:40>> Yeah.
59:40>> And actually, this is not a plug, but
59:42I'm an investor in a company called
59:44Whoop.
59:44>> And um on there they have the um stress
59:47measure. Again, it's not a perfect
59:48measure and nothing is a perfect
59:50measure, but I was looking at our
59:52differences in in the stress response
59:54according to Whoop on the devices. Yeah.
59:56>> And mine is very stable and hers is much
59:59more unstable,
1:00:00>> right?
1:00:01>> But I I imagine that opposite's
1:00:04attracted in this regard.
1:00:05>> Yeah. I mean, it's interesting because
1:00:06you could think if you were paired with
1:00:08somebody who was super stable, life
1:00:10might feel boring. If she was paired
1:00:12with somebody who was really volatile,
1:00:14life might feel too chaotic. So we
1:00:17frequently are drawn to people who
1:00:19compliment something about ourselves and
1:00:21who are sort of different enough that it
1:00:24can sort of expand our worldview. And I
1:00:27I worked with a couple's therapist. This
1:00:30is sort of his theory that it's often
1:00:33the differences that drive us together
1:00:36that can ultimately polarize us when
1:00:38things go ary. So you can imagine a
1:00:41future where she's always the emotional
1:00:44one and you're always the calm one and
1:00:46nobody gets a chance to break out of
1:00:47that and that becomes really entrenched
1:00:49in a way that like pulls you apart. But
1:00:52you could also imagine a future where
1:00:54you meet in the middle.
1:00:55>> Yeah.
1:00:55>> Like you become more emotionally
1:00:57attuned.
1:00:58>> Yeah.
1:00:58>> And she becomes calmer and more stable.
1:01:01>> Yeah.
1:01:01>> And that's sort of the ideal, right?
1:01:03That's what you want is you want to you
1:01:04want to be joining around those
1:01:06differences.
1:01:07>> I would say that's definitely what's
1:01:08happened.
1:01:08>> Yeah. So that's good. So, it's a good
1:01:10sign for your relationship.
1:01:11>> Yeah.
1:01:11>> Time to have a kid,
1:01:13>> I think. So,
1:01:14>> yeah,
1:01:14>> I'm trying.
1:01:15>> Good. [laughter]
1:01:16>> We froze our embryos.
1:01:17>> Excellent.
1:01:18>> So, we've got them in the freezer.
1:01:20>> Fantastic.
1:01:20>> Which is an really interesting process.
1:01:22I think this is probably worth spending
1:01:24some time on because I think I was
1:01:25living under the assumption that like in
1:01:27my early 30s, I could just sort of
1:01:28decide when to have a kid and I could
1:01:30just, you know, have sex during that
1:01:31little window they talk about where
1:01:32she's ovulating and the kids would
1:01:34appear. It's not necessarily how it
1:01:35works. Yeah.
1:01:36>> Turns out.
1:01:36>> No, it's actually a little trickier.
1:01:38It's trickier than I expected.
1:01:39>> There's actually a chapter in the book
1:01:40where I talk about paternity
1:01:42uncertainty. One of the things that's
1:01:43really unique and interesting about
1:01:44humans is we conceal our ovulation.
1:01:48So that makes us different from a lot of
1:01:50other animals where when a female is
1:01:53fertile, you know, because she changes
1:01:56color, she starts dancing in a certain
1:01:58way, she smells different, right? Like
1:02:00there are all these really obvious cues
1:02:02and as a result, males sort of know
1:02:05exactly what window to jump in on. And
1:02:08because we conceal our ovulation as
1:02:10humans, it's always a little bit murky.
1:02:12>> Why do we do that?
1:02:13>> For one thing, it encourages pair
1:02:15bonding because you can't just as a man
1:02:18like just show up like the one day that
1:02:20it's time to cause a pregnancy and then
1:02:22take off.
1:02:23>> So you have to court a woman, you have a
1:02:25lot of you need a lot of repeated
1:02:26opportunities. So if a man actually
1:02:29wants to cause pregnancy, he's much
1:02:32better off sticking with one woman and
1:02:34really investing in that relationship
1:02:36than he is like going out every night to
1:02:38find a different lady. We form stable
1:02:41monogous relationships because that's
1:02:43actually adaptive for spreading our
1:02:45genetic material and it also reduces
1:02:48aggression. So there's one theory that
1:02:50it reduces rivalry between women. If you
1:02:54know that one of the ladies in your
1:02:57group is fertile and you have it out for
1:02:59her, you want to take her out during her
1:03:02fertile period, right? So, concealing
1:03:05ovulation actually reduces that rivalry,
1:03:07that aggression.
1:03:08>> Okay.
1:03:09>> Um, it also makes everybody a little bit
1:03:12more invested in babies because no man
1:03:17knows exactly who's caused which
1:03:19pregnancies. And as a result, everybody
1:03:21has a little bit of an altruistic stake
1:03:24in the future of our children.
1:03:27>> Do you I'm not sure if this is an area
1:03:29of research you've covered, but and
1:03:31maybe I'm asking for a friend here.
1:03:32>> Yeah.
1:03:33>> Do you know what increases the
1:03:34probability of conceiving a child? Cuz I
1:03:37think about this a lot in terms of
1:03:39stress and feeling comfortable and all
1:03:41these kinds of things. Like I'm often
1:03:42thinking about like don't argue with
1:03:43her, keep her safe, make her feel really
1:03:45secure.
1:03:45>> Yeah. I mean, I think those are all good
1:03:47instincts.
1:03:48>> Is there research on this? There is
1:03:49research on reducing stress for sure,
1:03:51right? Like we know that stress makes it
1:03:52harder to conceive. Of course, the last
1:03:54thing you want to tell someone who's
1:03:56struggling to conceive is reduce stress
1:03:58because that's so invalidating because
1:04:00you're like, I'm stressed about how hard
1:04:02it is to conceive. Like don't, you know,
1:04:04telling somebody be less stressed is
1:04:07frequently not that helpful. But I think
1:04:09your intuition is right that you
1:04:10probably want to make the environment
1:04:12calmer and safer. And you know, like you
1:04:15can optimize nutrition. There's a lot
1:04:17you can do, but there's also a lot that
1:04:19is, you know, not up to you and
1:04:22sometimes more intervention is needed.
1:04:24>> What advice would you have for new
1:04:26fathers?
1:04:27>> This is kind of like one of the themes
1:04:28of my book. Great fathers are made not
1:04:30born. You might feel like you don't have
1:04:33the qualities to become an amazing dad,
1:04:36but it's really about your time, your
1:04:38investment, the practice that you get,
1:04:40and the extent that you care. That is
1:04:43going to shape you. It's going to build
1:04:45a brain and it's going to build a body
1:04:47that will make you a tuned-in parent.
1:04:50You know, give yourself grace. Like the
1:04:52transition to parenthood can be really
1:04:53challenging, but you can become an
1:04:58expert in your own child and there is a
1:05:01reward there. You will find enrichment.
1:05:04You will find meaning. You will
1:05:06rediscover your priorities in a way that
1:05:08will ultimately bring a lot of value.
1:05:12I talk to new founders, they all carry
1:05:14the same belief that the biggest threat
1:05:15to their small business is having a bad
1:05:17product. It's not the biggest threat
1:05:19they face is hiring the wrong person for
1:05:21their small team. Because bad hires put
1:05:23the handbreak on growth and rapidly
1:05:26infect company culture. And I get it.
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1:05:29players to grow your company, but you
1:05:30don't have 40 spare hours to spend
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1:06:27Thank you so much.
1:06:29>> Well, you've done so many studies.
1:06:31>> Yeah, probably too many.
1:06:32>> What is it? What are the studies that we
1:06:34haven't talked about that are most uh
1:06:36>> were most formative or surprising for
1:06:39you?
1:06:40>> We did a study where we looked at coup's
1:06:43plans for how they wanted to divide up
1:06:44baby care.
1:06:45>> Yeah.
1:06:46>> So, we gave them this questionnaire that
1:06:48we called a who does what where they
1:06:50were given 10 common baby care tasks
1:06:53like changing diapers, feeding a bottle,
1:06:55and they indicated on a slider how much
1:06:57mom was going to do and how much dad was
1:06:59going to do. And then we brought them
1:07:01back into the lab about six months after
1:07:03birth. We had them do the same scale.
1:07:05And it was really interesting because
1:07:06couples weren't actually great
1:07:08predictors of how much dad was going to
1:07:11do. So every single couple expected dad
1:07:14would do more before birth than dad was
1:07:16actually doing after birth. And there
1:07:18are a lot of reasons for that. That
1:07:19doesn't mean that anybody's a villain.
1:07:21It just means maybe mom got more time
1:07:23off from work. Maybe she was
1:07:24breastfeeding and so the baby, you know,
1:07:27she was she was with the baby more,
1:07:28right? Like there are a lot of reasons
1:07:29why that is the case, but we found that
1:07:32when dads were doing more, they reported
1:07:35that they were happier in their couple
1:07:38relationship. But one thing we looked at
1:07:41actually was how moms and dads talked
1:07:44about how they wanted to divvy up baby
1:07:46care. We measured how many times did
1:07:49they say the pronoun we compared to when
1:07:52you use the pronoun I where you're
1:07:53talking about yourself. When you're
1:07:55using we, you're talking about, you
1:07:57know, you and your partner, the more
1:07:59weness the dads were showing, the more
1:08:04happy they were in their relationship
1:08:05after birth. So, their investment, their
1:08:08willingness to chip in, even if they
1:08:11didn't totally realize all their plans,
1:08:13was still linked with their
1:08:14satisfaction. And that was controlling
1:08:16for how they felt about their partner
1:08:18before birth. And it's a little
1:08:19counterintuitive because you might
1:08:20think, you know, if you get to sit back
1:08:22and relax and your partner is doing
1:08:24more, that's a winning strategy.
1:08:28>> But it was actually the dads that did
1:08:29more who told us they were happier.
1:08:31>> If all goes well, next year I will be a
1:08:34dad.
1:08:35>> I hope so.
1:08:36>> I hope so, too.
1:08:36>> Yeah.
1:08:37>> So, I've written on this sort of slide
1:08:39in front of me here, advice for Steven.
1:08:42And I would like you to give me some
1:08:43advice, some actionable advice on, you
1:08:45know, becoming a father, what I need to
1:08:47do pre-post, during,
1:08:49>> yes,
1:08:49>> based on all the research that you have.
1:08:51>> And I'm going to write it down.
1:08:52>> Okay. So, first, take advantage of the
1:08:54window before birth.
1:08:56>> Yeah.
1:08:56>> To work on your communication with your
1:08:58partner.
1:08:59>> Think about how you want to divide up
1:09:01baby care. You know, a lot of the time
1:09:03people say, "We'll just wing it once the
1:09:05baby comes." And that can be a recipe
1:09:06for frustration cuz moms feel like
1:09:09they're doing everything. Dads feel like
1:09:10they're shut out from care. So, you
1:09:12know, have those conversations sooner.
1:09:14>> So, have before the baby comes, have a
1:09:16conversation about how we're going to
1:09:17divy up responsibilities and make sure
1:09:18both people are clear.
1:09:19>> Exactly. And think about too like what
1:09:22are we going to do about our extended
1:09:24families? What religion do we want to
1:09:25raise our kids in? What do we think
1:09:27about education? Like if you haven't had
1:09:28those conversations about values, have
1:09:31them now
1:09:32>> because then I think you're going to
1:09:34ward off conflict that is going to crop
1:09:36up later on. Okay. The other thing is,
1:09:38and I would do this before birth too,
1:09:40build up your social support network. A
1:09:42lot of men's primary confidant, their
1:09:44primary intimate relationship is with
1:09:46their partner. After the baby comes, mom
1:09:49is really preoccupied and dads are like,
1:09:51"What about me?" So, you know, we know
1:09:54when we look at depression research that
1:09:56having a strong social support network
1:09:57is one of the best buffers.
1:09:59>> So, you want to be thinking, "What are
1:10:01my friendships that I can count on and
1:10:04who can help me?" We really need
1:10:06community support. So, think about how
1:10:08can my mom help? How can my friend help?
1:10:11And maybe like, you know, your brother's
1:10:13got his own kids. He's too busy to take
1:10:16yours, but he can help in some other
1:10:18way, right? Like, how do you plug the
1:10:20people into your life into what your
1:10:22social support needs might be?
1:10:24>> I think a lot of people would cite this
1:10:26as being one of the reasons why they
1:10:28haven't had kids yet. Now, more so than
1:10:30ever, we don't live in communities.
1:10:32>> Yes. Now more so than ever, we are
1:10:34lonely, isolated, living in four small
1:10:36white walls in a city where we can
1:10:37barely pay our rent and we're struggling
1:10:39enough to take care of oursel.
1:10:41>> Um, our parents often live far away now
1:10:43because the we're living in such a
1:10:45globalized world.
1:10:46>> So feeling like you don't have the
1:10:48support around you to give birth when
1:10:50you're like scraping through in a job is
1:10:52it doesn't make a lot of logical sense
1:10:53as to why people won't choose to have
1:10:54children.
1:10:55>> Yeah, it's a huge problem and I think a
1:10:57lot of parents really struggle with
1:10:58feeling lonely and isolated. And so when
1:11:01I say, you know, like take the time
1:11:02before birth to build up your social
1:11:04support network, that doesn't just mean
1:11:06with your existing friendships and
1:11:08family, right? Like sometimes we end up
1:11:10far away from those people. It also
1:11:12means build community with other
1:11:15expectant parents, with your neighbors,
1:11:18right? Like we thrive when we build
1:11:20community. One nice thing about becoming
1:11:22a parent is there are a lot of
1:11:24mechanisms for doing that. There are
1:11:26many more for moms than there are for
1:11:28dads. So when I became a mom, I could go
1:11:30to breastfeeding support group. I could
1:11:32go to baby wearing support group. I
1:11:34could go like walk around the park with
1:11:36the Silver Lake Mom's Club. Like I had
1:11:38all these things to plug into. Dads did
1:11:41not have as many of those organic kind
1:11:44of community building structures
1:11:45available. So you know, take advantage
1:11:48of the ones that are there. I just
1:11:50talked to these guys that founded the
1:11:51Daddy Stroller Social Club. They've got
1:11:54chapters all over the country. they just
1:11:56meet up and they go for stroller walks
1:11:58with their kids and it's like an amazing
1:12:01way for dads to connect with each other.
1:12:03So, so build that as much as you can.
1:12:05So,
1:12:06>> okay, that's number two.
1:12:06>> What do we say? So, build your friends,
1:12:08work on your couple relationship, think
1:12:10about how you want to balance things out
1:12:13when the baby does come. First of all,
1:12:15protect your sleep. That's really hard.
1:12:17Everyone says sleep when the baby
1:12:19sleeps. Your sleep is going to be
1:12:20totally scrambled. But when you have
1:12:22healthy routines and good sleep hygiene
1:12:24even before birth, you're going to fare
1:12:26better after birth. So,
1:12:27>> but I can hear parents screaming through
1:12:29the cameras saying easier said than
1:12:32done. Yeah, I'm not trying to gaslight
1:12:33anyone, but I think when you have a good
1:12:35foundation of healthy sleep hygiene,
1:12:37you're probably going to So, things like
1:12:39really obvious things like don't be on
1:12:41devices right before it's time to go to
1:12:43bed, like dim the lights, like make sure
1:12:45your room is the right temperature, like
1:12:47try to dial in your sleeping environment
1:12:49because the sleep is going to be the
1:12:50hardest thing, the first thing to go.
1:12:52bit of a paradox here that when you're I
1:12:54guess stressed or sleep deprived, we
1:12:56often reach for things that are
1:12:58>> dopamine dopamogenic I think the term is
1:13:00which is like foods that maybe are a
1:13:02little bit higher in um you know not the
1:13:04good stuff.
1:13:04>> Yeah. Yeah.
1:13:05>> And this there's almost a paradox there.
1:13:07>> Yeah. It's a total vicious cycle for
1:13:08sure. And I would say like think about
1:13:10becoming a parent like you're preparing
1:13:11to run a marathon. You know, not to the
1:13:13point that you become totally neurotic
1:13:15about it, but think about being healthy,
1:13:17having things that are going to prepare
1:13:19your body for this big shakeup that
1:13:21you're going to undergo. And then once
1:13:23the baby comes, like take any
1:13:24opportunity to bond. Like I think a lot
1:13:26of men feel like I'm going to avoid as
1:13:29many diapers as possible.
1:13:32Changing diapers seems gross, but it's
1:13:33also a chance to make eye contact with
1:13:35your baby and like really get to know
1:13:39them in a different way. So, you know,
1:13:41jump into those baby care opportunities.
1:13:44Like find your own style and, you know,
1:13:47make sure like the more windows you have
1:13:48to bond, the better you're going to feel
1:13:51like you know your baby and the more
1:13:52confident you're going to be. And then I
1:13:54would say give yourself grace. like know
1:13:55that this is hard, know that it's
1:13:57temporary, and know that you are, you
1:14:00know, you're sacrificing in the short
1:14:02term for a lot of long-term benefit.
1:14:04>> One of the things that might be a little
1:14:05bit absent from this list is an effort
1:14:08towards holding my relationship together
1:14:11>> with my fiance.
1:14:13>> Also important. I mean, that's part of
1:14:15what you want to do before the baby's
1:14:17born, right? You want to be shoring up
1:14:18the communication and having those hard
1:14:20conversations.
1:14:21>> The date night thing, you know,
1:14:22>> date night's probably going to be the
1:14:23first thing out the window. Yeah, that
1:14:25is a that is a thing that goes out the
1:14:26window. But you know what? One nice
1:14:28thing about newborns is they'll sleep
1:14:30pretty much anywhere. So, you know, when
1:14:32our babies were little, my husband and I
1:14:34would just like put the baby in a car
1:14:36seat and go eat in a nice restaurant.
1:14:38>> You know, it was like the last time we
1:14:40got to do that for a few years because
1:14:41once they start walking around, they're
1:14:44much less portable.
1:14:45>> So, like take advantage of some of the
1:14:48early baby stuff that you can do to
1:14:50travel and to make sure that you get
1:14:51out.
1:14:52>> That advice was all advice for me. Yeah.
1:14:54>> For Steven.
1:14:55>> Yeah.
1:14:55>> Would there be any different advice if
1:14:57my fiance was sat here and you were
1:14:58advising her?
1:14:59>> Oh, that would be fun.
1:15:00>> Yeah.
1:15:01>> Yeah. I mean, I would say that sort of
1:15:03giving yourself grace thing would go
1:15:04double, right? It's like know that
1:15:07Steven is going through a lot and then
1:15:09you need to know that she's going
1:15:10through a lot. Like her whole sense of
1:15:13self is going to be an upheaval because
1:15:17like we go through this thing, it's
1:15:19called metricance. There's also patra
1:15:22essence which is just the idea that
1:15:24becoming a parent kind of you know
1:15:26changes your priorities. It changes your
1:15:28sense of who you are. So she's going to
1:15:31go through a lot of transformation as
1:15:32you will and so sort of like hanging in
1:15:35with each other during that period of
1:15:37transformation is really fundamental
1:15:39like sometimes couples can grow apart or
1:15:42dads are jealous that the baby's getting
1:15:44all the attention. He feels left out.
1:15:46Moms are frustrated that dad isn't doing
1:15:48more to help. Like all of those things
1:15:50can lead to conflict and you can know
1:15:53that those are going to be hot spots for
1:15:55conflict and try to talk your way
1:15:57through them even ahead of birth.
1:16:00>> Derby, what what's the um most important
1:16:02thing we haven't talked about that we
1:16:04should have talked about as it relates
1:16:05to your work for all the people that are
1:16:07listening now that have gotten this far
1:16:08in the conversation?
1:16:09>> Yeah, let's see. We didn't talk about
1:16:11dadbod.
1:16:13>> Dadbod,
1:16:14>> that's a fun topic.
1:16:15>> Okay,
1:16:16>> something we frequently joke about. We
1:16:17think about like Homer Simpson, but it's
1:16:20been found across both animal and human
1:16:23studies that males tend to gain weight
1:16:24when they become fathers.
1:16:26>> Is that just the cortisol in the lack of
1:16:27sleep?
1:16:28>> So, it's a mix of all the hormones. It's
1:16:29prolactin is a hormone we haven't talked
1:16:32much about, but that is rising, sleep
1:16:34deprivation,
1:16:36um changes in physical activity, changes
1:16:39in our diet, right, because of stress
1:16:41and some of the dietary choices that
1:16:43we're making. Like I joke in the book
1:16:45like my husband and I basically ate
1:16:46peanut butter pretzels from Trader Joe's
1:16:48like every day that our kids were
1:16:50babies. So, you know, a lot of stuff is
1:16:53happening all at once. It's kind of a
1:16:54perfect storm. And yet, you know,
1:16:56there's evidence even from animal models
1:16:59that you see weight changes around the
1:17:02transition to fatherhood.
1:17:05>> These ones here.
1:17:06>> Yeah. Yeah. These are the tamarind
1:17:07monkeys. So, there was a study that
1:17:10looked at tamarind monkeys that were
1:17:11expecting offspring and um it fed them a
1:17:16standardized diet and it compared them
1:17:18to tamarind monkeys who didn't have
1:17:20partners that were expecting offspring.
1:17:23And they found that the expectant dads
1:17:24actually gained more weight even though
1:17:26they were eating the same diet as the
1:17:28comparison monkeys who weren't about to
1:17:31have a baby. And so there were these
1:17:34like body changes that happened even
1:17:36before birth in the male monkeys.
1:17:38>> Why would that be?
1:17:40>> It's probably adaptive. Like if you
1:17:42think about increasing your body size to
1:17:45be more imposing and to better ward off
1:17:48attacks from rivals. And you also want
1:17:51to buffer in case there's scarcity,
1:17:53right? Like you want extra fat. It looks
1:17:56less adaptive in a kind of modern
1:17:57context when we have a very obesogenic
1:18:01environment
1:18:02>> and you know you can start to see more
1:18:04cardio metabolic risk. But one thing I
1:18:08talk about in the book is women actually
1:18:10like a dadbot. Studies of single women
1:18:13have found that you know if you show
1:18:14them a series of body types the dadbot
1:18:16is the most popular. you know, sort of
1:18:18like a mildly,
1:18:20you know, kind of like uh lightly
1:18:22marbled male torso.
1:18:24>> Lightly marbled torso.
1:18:26>> I don't know if you remember like the
1:18:27Ali Mirrors, the British singer who like
1:18:29did a big tone up at the gym and posted
1:18:31selfies, you know, he had like a 12-pack
1:18:34or something and all these women online
1:18:36were saying like, "We liked the before
1:18:38picture."
1:18:39>> So, you know, there's something to be
1:18:40said for
1:18:41win
1:18:41>> the reproductive signal of a dad bot.
1:18:44But part of it is if you show women
1:18:45torsos of different kinds of male body
1:18:48types, the the sort of dad bod is one
1:18:52that women say he's more likely to be a
1:18:54hands-on father. He's probably going to
1:18:56be more attentive. He's going to be more
1:18:58caring. And those are things that are
1:19:00really attractive to women.
1:19:02>> And that's proven by science. So if I go
1:19:04out and get a dad bod, you're telling me
1:19:06the science is says I'm going to be more
1:19:07attractive.
1:19:07>> Yeah. Go for it. Yeah.
1:19:09>> Okay.
1:19:09>> Yeah. Worth a shot.
1:19:11>> See what my fiance says.
1:19:12>> Yeah. [laughter]
1:19:14How much of your work has been
1:19:16influenced by this?
1:19:20>> Oh, this is my dad. So much of my work.
1:19:23My parents got divorced when I was nine
1:19:26and my dad became a solo parent to me
1:19:30and my brothers. Um, my parents
1:19:32ultimately worked out a joint custody
1:19:35schedule. So, we were one week with my
1:19:37dad, one week with my mom. We switched
1:19:39off every week as I was growing up. and
1:19:42he became a really great dad. Like he
1:19:44had a major learning curve. He wasn't a
1:19:46hands-on dad. He was like an 80s dad
1:19:48who, you know, showed up for the big
1:19:51stuff. But when he was alone with the
1:19:54four of us, he suddenly had to be the
1:19:57guy making our meals, the guy helping us
1:19:58with our homework, the guy driving us to
1:20:01sports practice, he really rose to the
1:20:03occasion, and I'm still really close
1:20:04with him.
1:20:05>> How do you think that's influenced your
1:20:06your overarching mission and your focus
1:20:08on, you know, dads and parenting? Yeah.
1:20:11So, I've always been really interested
1:20:12in families and you know, they say like
1:20:14psychologists are always trying to fix
1:20:16the thing that went wrong in their
1:20:17lives. So, I'm probably like as someone
1:20:19who's interested in couples and families
1:20:20wanting to reverse like my own parents'
1:20:23divorce. But I also like seeing my dad
1:20:26be a great caregiver and then realizing
1:20:29how much parenting research is solely
1:20:31focused on moms makes me realize there's
1:20:33like a real gap in the literature. like,
1:20:36you know, men play a really important
1:20:38role in parenting and I think deserve a
1:20:40lot of recognition and respect for that.
1:20:42>> It's it's interesting that I I'd never
1:20:44heard before that there's really any
1:20:46changes that took place in a
1:20:47>> Yeah.
1:20:48>> man's brain when a man becomes a
1:20:51>> father.
1:20:52>> I mean, I think it's not something that
1:20:53gets talked about a lot, which is why I
1:20:55wanted to write about it.
1:20:57>> But, you know, we are dynamic. We're
1:20:59plastic. We humans adapt. and becoming a
1:21:03parent is one of the biggest
1:21:05transformations that you can experience.
1:21:08>> Have you ever done any research on the
1:21:10impact that divorce has on children?
1:21:12>> Not a lot. No. Which is ironic cuz I am
1:21:15a child of divorce, but um there is some
1:21:18research about it and there's definitely
1:21:21some evidence that it can create some
1:21:23challenges for kids.
1:21:25>> And have you ever done any research on
1:21:27or do you have a view on whether humans
1:21:28are supposed to be monogamous?
1:21:31>> Well, okay. So the best way to describe
1:21:33humans is we're sort of monogamous with
1:21:35benefits. And you know, you can see that
1:21:38if you look at the difference in our
1:21:39body size, so like male humans are a
1:21:43little bit bigger than female humans,
1:21:45but they're not like twice as big.
1:21:47>> So like gorillas, male gorillas are way
1:21:50bigger than female gorillas. There's
1:21:52like a huge size differential. And you
1:21:54know that says that you know like the
1:21:56male gorilla model is one of like herum
1:22:00dominance right fully monogamous animals
1:22:04are exactly the same size like prairie v
1:22:06males and females are almost exactly the
1:22:08same size as each other. They have like
1:22:10no size differential. So that's like
1:22:12like real pair bonding.
1:22:14>> So we're sort of like somewhere in
1:22:16between. There are a lot of societies
1:22:17with different models. You have
1:22:19polygamy, which is one man with lots of
1:22:22women. You have polyandri, which is more
1:22:26rare. That's one woman with lots of men.
1:22:28Only a few societies that have that
1:22:30model. But monogamy is actually the most
1:22:32common across lots of different cultures
1:22:34and societies. And I think it because
1:22:36it's it brings us some benefits in part
1:22:38because of the concealed ovulation piece
1:22:40that helps motivate men to be more
1:22:42invested in a single partner, but also
1:22:45because it generally is good for kids.
1:22:47What are you um what are you concerned
1:22:49about?
1:22:50>> I mean our future as a planet.
1:22:53[laughter]
1:22:54>> Which part of our future as a planet?
1:22:55>> So I I definitely am concerned about
1:22:58what we've been talking about the
1:22:59declining birth rate.
1:23:01>> I'm concerned not just because it
1:23:03portends problems, you know, in our
1:23:06future societies, but because it what it
1:23:08signals, I think about young people's
1:23:10hopefulness for the future,
1:23:13>> right? I think when you look at the
1:23:14world and you say, "I don't want to
1:23:16reproduce. I don't want to bring
1:23:18children into this world," it to me
1:23:20suggests like a a nihilism and a
1:23:22darkness that concerns me. Like marriage
1:23:25rates are dropping. Like young men and
1:23:28young women seem to be on different
1:23:31paths. Part of that is like we're in
1:23:33these algorithmic echo chambers where
1:23:35the kind of content that we're absorbing
1:23:37is really different. So you see
1:23:39increasing political polarization not
1:23:42just in the US but in other countries
1:23:43too. It's like there's more adversarial
1:23:47kind of interaction
1:23:49and I don't think that's good. You know
1:23:51going back to the idea that having a
1:23:53healthy late life is about building
1:23:56strong relationships and that that's a
1:23:59good predictor of our longevity. I want
1:24:02us to be in a world where we see
1:24:03ourselves as being on the same team as
1:24:05each other.
1:24:06>> Are you hopeful? Yeah, I'm super
1:24:08hopeful. I'm a very optimistic person.
1:24:10>> What would have to happen for that to be
1:24:11the case?
1:24:12>> I'm hopeful. I have teenagers, you know.
1:24:14I'm hopeful for them. I think they're
1:24:16going to take over and hopefully they'll
1:24:18be wiser than my generation has been.
1:24:21That's them with my husband. That's from
1:24:24a few years ago.
1:24:24>> I was going to say this, your boy's a
1:24:26bit older now, right?
1:24:27>> Yeah, he's 14 now.
1:24:28>> 14. Okay.
1:24:29>> Yeah.
1:24:30>> Dr. Darby Saxby, PhD.
1:24:32>> Yep, that's me. We have a closing
1:24:34tradition on this podcast where the last
1:24:35guest leaves a question to the next
1:24:36guest not knowing who they're leading it
1:24:38for.
1:24:38>> Oh
1:24:39>> question left for you is people are
1:24:42increasingly distrustful and lonely. If
1:24:44you could flip a switch and make one
1:24:47systemic change to turn the tide, what
1:24:50would it be?
1:24:52>> To make people more socially connected.
1:24:55Well, I think building a better policy
1:24:58environment around parenting. So, I'm a
1:25:00big advocate for parental leave to
1:25:03protect time and space to bond. I think
1:25:06that would be a really positive change
1:25:07for a lot of parents in the US who don't
1:25:09get access to leave.
1:25:11>> Well, ju as a Brit, you know, I've moved
1:25:13over here and we we we you know, we're
1:25:15hiring a big workforce here in Los
1:25:17Angeles, New York, and around the United
1:25:19States,
1:25:20>> but hearing about the parental leave
1:25:21policies here is like mindblowing.
1:25:24>> What is the current parental leave
1:25:25policy in the United States? Yeah. So we
1:25:27are a huge outlier compared to the rest
1:25:29of the world, right? So like we do not
1:25:33have a universal paid leave policy for
1:25:35parents. That's at the federal level.
1:25:38There are some different policies at the
1:25:39state level. So every state has slightly
1:25:41different policies, but frequently
1:25:44what's most available to parents is
1:25:46unpaid disability leave that's provided
1:25:49by the state. It's not available to
1:25:51every parent. If you're a shift worker,
1:25:53if you're a gig worker, if you're at
1:25:55Walmart, you probably don't have access
1:25:58to that paid leave. And as a result, a
1:26:00lot of new moms in the US are back to
1:26:02work within a couple of weeks of birth,
1:26:04which I think is totally bonkers when
1:26:06you think about what does it take to
1:26:08build a healthy society.
1:26:09>> The baseline federal protection is the
1:26:12family medical leave act. It guarantees
1:26:14up to 12 weeks of unpaid
1:26:16>> Yep.
1:26:17>> leave. Your employer must also maintain
1:26:20your group health insurance during this
1:26:21this time. So, they don't pay you.
1:26:24>> Yeah. Yeah. And that's a big problem
1:26:27because it's expensive.
1:26:29>> They're really expensive
1:26:29>> to raise kids.
1:26:31>> It's so surprising that they haven't
1:26:32passed law uh in this direction because
1:26:34it's not a partisan dispute.
1:26:37>> No, that's what's so surprising is that
1:26:39it's one of the best polling issues.
1:26:42It's bipartisan, right? Both Republicans
1:26:44and Democrats say they support leave. I
1:26:47think it's something like 80%
1:26:49>> of Americans are in favor of it. Yet, we
1:26:52haven't found the political will to make
1:26:54it happen.
1:26:54>> Well, maybe we need a woman in office.
1:26:58>> Well said.
1:27:00>> Or just a man, which
1:27:01>> or just a just an empathetic man. Let's
1:27:04get hands- on dads
1:27:06to rise to power and moms.
1:27:09Thank you so much for writing this book
1:27:11because you're shining a light on so
1:27:13many issues that have been mystified
1:27:16through I guess pop culture in a way,
1:27:17but you're you're bringing to light the
1:27:19reality that men are both important in
1:27:22the raising of children, but also you're
1:27:24you're doing it through a lens of
1:27:25storytelling through adjacencies and
1:27:27different animals and through science in
1:27:30such a rigorous way. And I think it
1:27:32starts a conversation about the upsides
1:27:34of being a parent.
1:27:35>> And those are, as we said, they're less
1:27:37obvious than the pain of being a parent.
1:27:39>> Yeah.
1:27:39>> And I think the more we can sort of
1:27:41rebalance that equation, the more likely
1:27:43we are to have to raise a healthy
1:27:44generation of of kids. And again, I do
1:27:47pause a lot because I realize I've got
1:27:48friends close to me that both either
1:27:50don't want to have kids for whatever
1:27:51reasons or just can't have kids.
1:27:53>> So there's often the the sort of stigma
1:27:55can go both ways in some regard. Um, but
1:27:58I'm someone that wants to have kids and
1:27:59it was fascinating learning about your
1:28:01work and it was um, helps me to prepare
1:28:03for what I hope will be the most
1:28:04fulfilling journey of my life. So, Dr.
1:28:07Darby Saxby, thank you so much for your
1:28:08work. If everyone wants to go get your
1:28:10book, I have two versions here. I have
1:28:11the UK version and I have the uh, US
1:28:14version. I'm going to hold both of them
1:28:16up here and I'll link it below for
1:28:17anyone that wants to have a read.
1:28:19Absolutely fascinating. And the great
1:28:21thing about your work is you do the sort
1:28:22of first party research yourself.
1:28:24>> And you're at the very forefront of what
1:28:26we know about what it is to have a dad
1:28:29brain, but also more broadly about
1:28:31couples, how they interact, and where
1:28:33they can sometimes go wrong.
1:28:36Thank you.
1:28:37>> Thank you so much for having me. This
1:28:39was a delight.
1:28:39>> It's been a pleasure. YouTube have this
1:28:41new crazy algorithm where they know
1:28:43exactly what video you would like to
1:28:45watch next based on AI and all of your
1:28:47viewing behavior. And the algorithm says
1:28:49that this video is the perfect video for
1:28:52you. It's different for everybody
1:28:54looking right now.

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