Surviving Death Row: One Man's Fight for Freedom After A Wrongful Conviction | Anthony Graves — Transcript

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1. 0:03Anthony Graves (00:05) six people were
2. 0:06shot, stabbed, blundered to death, gasoline  was poured all over their body. The house
3. 0:11was burned down, a crime that never  happened in a small town like this.
4. 0:15A young man thought he had seen  four young black men in a Jeep
5. 0:19thought one of those young black men in the me.
6. 0:21And then they knocked on my door the  next morning and changed my whole life.
7. 0:24So I ended up going to jail, for  crime I knew absolutely nothing about.
8. 0:27Texas Ranger walks up to my face. and  the words he said to me verbatim was,
9. 0:31I don't believe you did this crime.
10. 0:33the end of the day, they knew I was
11. 0:35I was a young African-American man who  could not afford that type of justice.
12. 0:39this is thought that came to my mind that  saved my life. And it was simple. Man,
13. 0:43I'm just going to live till  I die. That's saved my life.
14. 0:51Paul S DelPonte (00:45) simplest things
15. 0:51Paul S DelPonte (00:51) Welcome to true crime prevention,
16. 0:52the podcast that melds true crime  with real solutions. Let's expose
17. 0:56how all crime starts the same way with a  chance. Today we won't give it a chance.
18. 1:02I'm Paul DelPonte and I work with McGruff  the crime dog. Thank you for joining us.
19. 1:06today. You are in for a real story full of drama  that no movie, no TV script could do justice
20. 1:14about the wrongfully accused. You're going  to see what that's like to be on death row.
21. 1:18to hear from Anthony Graves and his famous story  in Texas on what it's like to face your execution
22. 1:25not once, but twice But more importantly, how his  spirit was not broken and how he's helping others.
23. 1:31stay tuned for this absolutely gripping story of  how the criminal justice system got it so wrong
24. 1:36and what this heroic man is doing to make sure  it doesn't happen to others. In the meantime,
25. 1:41don't forget to click like and subscribe  and we'll be right back with Anthony.
26. 1:45Paul S DelPonte (01:45) Anthony, thank you for
27. 1:46Crime Prevention. Great to have you with us.
28. 1:48Anthony Graves (01:48) Thank you guys for inviting me on.
29. 1:50Paul S DelPonte (01:50) and great to see you living as a free man again.
30. 1:53⁓ So it has been quite an ordeal to say the least.  Basically at the time the criminal justice system
31. 2:00took away about half your life because you were  wrongfully convicted of murder. Is that right?
32. 2:05Anthony Graves (02:05) That is definitely correct.
33. 2:07Paul S DelPonte (02:07) There we go. tell this
34. 2:09goes guess 1994 around that  time. How old were you then?
35. 2:14Anthony Graves (02:14) So it actually was 1992
36. 2:16when the crime had taken place and I was 26  years old. A week shy of my 27th birthday.
37. 2:22Paul S DelPonte (02:22) and you were just living
38. 2:24your life, minding your own business, is that?
39. 2:26Anthony Graves (02:26) Yeah, yeah, I wasn't no
40. 2:27criminal or anything. I was just  minding my own business. then,
41. 2:31you know, someone ⁓ called my name and said  that I was involved in something with them,
42. 2:36thinking that they could get away. But once  they called my name, my whole life changed.
43. 2:40Paul S DelPonte (02:41) And so when you say called
44. 2:42your name, this was so actually the real  killer accused you is that essentially.
45. 2:46Anthony Graves (02:46) Well, that's who they've
46. 2:48executed. So we'll call him the real killer.  I don't know if he did it. But but he is.
47. 2:51Paul S DelPonte (02:50) We don't know for sure.
48. 2:51Okay. And this is in Texas,
49. 2:54which is a capital punishment state.
50. 2:56Anthony Graves (02:55) Yes, yes, this was in
51. 2:57Texas. Matter of fact, a small  town called Somerville, Texas,
52. 3:01by 2000 people that resided there and nothing  like this had ever happened in that small town.
53. 3:06So when this did happen and a young man  showed up to the funeral with bandages,
54. 3:12he became immediately a person of interest  to the Texas Rangers who were there at the
55. 3:16funeral. So afterwards, they approached him  and asked if they could talk to him. He agreed.
56. 3:22Paul S DelPonte (03:03) Okay.
57. 3:22Wow.
58. 3:22Okay.
59. 3:22So
60. 3:22it was a murder case, it  was a brutal murder, right?
61. 3:25Anthony Graves (03:25) that six people were
62. 3:26shot, stabbed, blundered to death,  gasoline was poured all over their
63. 3:30body. The house was burned down,  you know, in the obvious attempt
64. 3:33to cover up the crime. So it was a crime  that never happened in a small town like
65. 3:38this.
66. 3:38was in an adjacent town, which is like  about 25 miles from Somerville, Texas.
67. 3:44Paul S DelPonte (03:40) okay.
68. 3:44And then you said your name got at first  implicated I'm assuming at some point the
69. 3:50Texas Rangers or the police showed up knocking  on your door tell us how that part unfolded.
70. 3:54Anthony Graves (03:53) Yeah,
71. 3:54so my name got called.
72. 3:55A young man thought he had seen four  young black men in a Jeep coming off
73. 4:00the freeway onto the feeder. He thought  one of those young black men in the Jeep
74. 4:04was me. So when they took him to the DPS  office, they started interrogating him.
75. 4:08They asked him to give the name of someone  who could have done the crime with him,
76. 4:12and they would let him go. Well, because he  thought he had seen me earlier in the Jeep,
77. 4:16he called my name. They asked him for a story.  It gave him like seven different stories.
78. 4:20Then afterwards, when the story fitted their  theory, they turned around and charged him
79. 4:25with capital murder. And then they knocked on my  door the next morning and changed my whole life.
80. 4:28Paul S DelPonte (04:28) how open were they when
81. 4:30they knocked on your door? you know, was  it like, Hey, there was a murder, you're
82. 4:34Anthony Graves (04:33) Well, it was actually my neighbor.
83. 4:35Well, it was actually my neighbor who had knocked  on my door and I opened and he told me, hey, man,
84. 4:39the police looking for you. And I said, police  looking for me? For what? Because I mean,
85. 4:44I wouldn't know why would the police be  looking for me? He said, I don't know,
86. 4:47man, but they just asked me if  that's if that was your vehicle.
87. 4:50So in my mind, if the police looking for me,  then they have gone by my auntie's house,
88. 4:54because I go there every day. So I  called my auntie to ask her, hey,
89. 4:57Mike just told me the police was looking for  me. Have they come by the house? She was like,
90. 5:01no, why would the police be looking for you? I  said, I don't know, but Mike just said they're
91. 5:05looking for me. So she said, well, why you call  the police station and find out? So I said, OK,
92. 5:09well, better yet, I'll just put my shirt on and  I'll go outside and I'll look for the police.
93. 5:14This is what part of my story where I tell all  your viewers and listeners who are listening
94. 5:18to me right now that at the end of the day,  no matter what you take away from my story,
95. 5:23just remember this one thing because it could  definitely save you and your family life. Don't
96. 5:27go look for the police. ⁓ Let them find you.  Because I went looking for the police because
97. 5:33I wanted to know when I went downstairs, the  police pulled up. He gets out the police cruiser,
98. 5:38asked me my name. I tell him he asked  me for some ID. I show it to him.
99. 5:42Paul S DelPonte (05:29) Hahaha
100. 5:42Anthony Graves (05:42) Then he tell me that
101. 5:43he'd been told to come pick me up, take  me to the police station because some
102. 5:47officer wanted to talk to me. So I asked him,  could you tell me what it's about? He said, no,
103. 5:52but when you get down there, the officer will  let you know. So I tell the next door neighbor,
104. 5:56hey, Mike, the officer said I have to go to the  police station for something, but my mother's on
105. 5:59the way home. Could you let her know? I should  be right back, right? Because I haven't done
106. 6:04anything wrong. So in my mind, maybe I got a  ticket or something that I forgot. I don't know.
107. 6:09So when I told him, tell my  mom I should be right back,
108. 6:12I did not realize it was going to  take me over 6,640 days of my life,
109. 6:17along with two execution days, and witnessing  over 400 men being murdered around me before
110. 6:22I was able to come back home a free man.  Because when I get down to the police station,
111. 6:27they're telling me that some man has  implicated me in a crime that I know
112. 6:30absolutely nothing about. at the end of  the day, they knew I was innocent. But I
113. 6:35I was a young African-American man who  could not afford that type of justice.
114. 6:39And I ended up getting a death penalty  for a crime I knew absolutely nothing
115. 6:42about.
116. 6:42Paul S DelPonte (06:42) Okay, so you're at the
117. 6:43police At what point did they go from  questioning you to reading you your rights?
118. 6:49Anthony Graves (06:49) no, when I first,
119. 6:50when they asked me to stand up, they  began reading me my rights. Yeah, they,
120. 6:53they, they, in their mind, they already got  the person. Now let's start building the case.
121. 6:57Paul S DelPonte (06:53) Okay.
122. 6:57what kinds of questions did they  start asking right off the bat
123. 7:00Anthony Graves (07:00) they brought me in,
124. 7:01accused me, and charged me with the crime,  they just started interrogating me, man,
125. 7:05and asking me about the crime that I couldn't  answer. And then, you know, at the end of the day,
126. 7:10Texas Ranger walks up to my face. He looks at  me, and the words he said to me verbatim was,
127. 7:15I don't believe you did this crime. But  if you don't put nothing on Mr. Carter,
128. 7:18we're going to put this whole thing on  you. And if you're actually innocent,
129. 7:21then don't let no grass grow on your grave. And  he told the officer, now get him out of here.
130. 7:25So I ended up going to jail, spending two  and a half years for crime I knew absolutely
131. 7:29nothing about. waiting trial, waiting trial,  waiting trial. Begging them to take me to trial
132. 7:33for two and a half years. I'm begging them  take me to trial because I want to go home.
133. 7:37Paul S DelPonte (07:35) Okay.
134. 7:37Wow, okay, two and a half years, the  prosecutor had to present a case.
135. 7:41Anthony Graves (07:41) Yes.
136. 7:41Paul S DelPonte (07:41) And
137. 7:42it boggles my mind and I'm sure  it boggled your mind even more.
138. 7:47⁓ Wondering how could they present  evidence to convict someone of not one,
139. 7:53but multiple murders? help us unfold that because  I'm having a hard time getting my mind around it.
140. 8:00Anthony Graves (07:54) Wow, yes.
141. 8:00It's still a mystery, man. How do you sentence  us a man to death with no evidence? Well,
142. 8:05I'll tell you how. When you  got 12 people up in the jury,
143. 8:0811 of them are white and one of them is a black  man. That's how. Because when we picked the jury,
144. 8:13it was 11 white jurors and one black. And my  attorney said to me, well, I'm going to go see
145. 8:18who the foreman of the jury juror is. And I just  said, blurt it out to him, man, it's going to be
146. 8:22the black guy. And he said, why you think that?  I said, man, it's going to be the black guy.
147. 8:25So he goes back into the jury room and he comes  back out and he says, how did you know that was
148. 8:30going to be the black guy? And see, you can answer  the question now without me even having to tell
149. 8:33you, but I'm going to fill it in. And I said, man,  because they're going to convict me before they
150. 8:37even hear this case. And they're going to put the  black man as the face of the jury. And he don't
151. 8:41realize that his vote cannot be the only voter  for me because they're going to look like he's
152. 8:46voting for the black guy. So he's one vote against  me already. They're going to do the black guy.
153. 8:50Paul S DelPonte (08:40) Okay.
154. 8:50Anthony Graves (08:50) So that's what they did.
155. 8:51They put the black guy in front as the  former of the jury and they convict me
156. 8:56before they heard the case. And they let  the black guy and the judge, the note saying
157. 9:00that I was convicted of capital murder  with no evidence, no evidence at all,
158. 9:06Paul S DelPonte (09:02) Okay.
159. 9:06Anthony Graves (09:05) A young man who did not know me was able to
160. 9:08lie on me. It caused me 18 and a half years of my  life, most of it on death row. He did not do me.
161. 9:14Paul S DelPonte (09:05) but a lie.
162. 9:14Wow.
163. 9:14OK, so the jury came back with a guilty  verdict based on the testimony of one
164. 9:20individually and no bullets, no  forensic evidence, no nothing.
165. 9:25Anthony Graves (09:18) Yes.
166. 9:25nothing.
167. 9:26Paul S DelPonte (09:27) So you're sitting there.
168. 9:28Anthony Graves (09:28) Yeah.
169. 9:28Paul S DelPonte (09:28) And you know, we've all
170. 9:31watched enough movies to know how this goes.  You know, please rise. The jury has reached its
171. 9:36verdict and you're standing there. And you  hear this guilty, guilty, guilty 12 times.
172. 9:41I can't even imagine. So I gotta ask what was  going through your mind? Cause I can't imagine.
173. 9:45Anthony Graves (09:45) I was exhausted, man. For two and a half years,
174. 9:48I believed that all I had to do was get the trial  and let the truth come out and I can go home.
175. 9:53So for two and a half years, I was geared up to  make sure that the truth came out so I could go
176. 9:58home. I don't know nothing about this. I don't  know the people. People don't know me. I know
177. 10:02nothing. And now two and a half years, I'm  finally finally to get a child. But let me
178. 10:06just tell you, my grandma used to say to me,  be careful what you ask for in this world.
179. 10:11because you just might get it. I wanted  a trial. I wanted to prove my innocence,
180. 10:16which that is not the law. The law is that  you're innocent until proven guilty. But I
181. 10:20needed to prove my innocence because I wanted  to go home, man. I've been in jail two and a
182. 10:25half years for a crime I know absolutely nothing  about. I'm not a criminal. But yeah, here it is.
183. 10:30I'm faced with capital murder, and I'm in trial  for it. And I don't know nobody. I'm 27 years old.
184. 10:37Now I'm 29 by the time we go to trial. And  all I want to do is just tell the truth
185. 10:43so I can go home. But that's not the  way our criminal justice system works.
186. 10:47If they're taking you into the courtroom,  they're going in there to convict you,
187. 10:52not to seek justice, not to seek the  truth, but to seek a conviction. And
188. 10:57your other side is trying to win as well.  And the pawn in it all is the guy seat.
189. 11:03That was me. Everybody's playing to win.  I just want the truth to come out so I can
190. 11:07go home. But that's not the way it's done in our  courtroom. And that's why I've dedicated my life
191. 11:12to sharing my story so people can understand.  This is not TV. This is not made for TV. This
192. 11:18is real life. People are losing their freedoms  and their life to our criminal justice system
193. 11:23because of the fear that they have sold us  to that we now support it blindly. Blindly.
194. 11:29And they're able to take people like me and mess  up our lives when I've done nothing. So I've
195. 11:34written my book about it. I've shared it. I go  across the country and I share my story about it
196. 11:38because it's important for people to know this is  what's happening in our criminal justice system.
197. 11:43Paul S DelPonte (11:43) Absolutely is. I just got to commend you,
198. 11:46both on writing the book, doing all the speaking  that you're doing. pointed out to me before we
199. 11:51began the show, this is what you do now. And cause  you got to do it. let's go back. So there you are
200. 11:57convicted. Then you get taken away from jail  to a real prison. I'm sure that wasn't pretty.
201. 12:02Anthony Graves (11:53) Yes sir.
202. 12:02Paul S DelPonte (12:02) death row, right?
203. 12:03Anthony Graves (12:03) it was totally mind blowing. I'm here it is, I'm
204. 12:06at home with my family one night, a crime  happened in another town that I don't go to,
205. 12:11don't know the people, the people don't know me.  And now I'm on that road for the people that we
206. 12:16have claimed to be the worst of the worst in our  society. And now I'm having to live among them.
207. 12:21Paul S DelPonte (12:18) Right, right. We
208. 12:21live with them.
209. 12:22Anthony Graves (12:21) It was scary, man. I was
210. 12:24very scary. I remember the first week I was there,
211. 12:27I didn't talk to nobody. I didn't want nobody  to talk to me. They gave me some headphones
212. 12:31that I could put on and listen to some music,  right? Listen to the TV that was out on the
213. 12:37run. It wasn't in your cell. You could see it  out on the run with some headphones. every day,
214. 12:42I would put them headphones on and I would relive  from minute to minute my life in the free world.
215. 12:48Paul S DelPonte (12:23) I bet.
216. 12:48Anthony Graves (12:48) I did not want to be on death
217. 12:50row. I did not deserve to be on death row. I  hadn't committed no crime. I'm not no criminal,
218. 12:54but I'm sitting here on death row. And I got  headphones on trying to imagine myself in the free
219. 13:00world among my family, among my peers, among the  people that love me. And they took that from me
220. 13:05for 6,640 days of my life. They took that from me  with no evidence and then tried to murder me, man.
221. 13:13Paul S DelPonte (13:13) So yet through all this,
222. 13:15you persevered. And to me, that's probably the  most amazing part of the story. They didn't
223. 13:21break that's to your credit. That's because  of who you are. truth eventually came out,
224. 13:27but it wasn't quick. You were  almost executed not once, but twice.
225. 13:30Anthony Graves (13:16) Yes.
226. 13:30Correct.
227. 13:31Paul S DelPonte (13:31) you know you didn't do it. it sound
228. 13:32like even the officer who, the Texas Ranger  who interrogated you knew you didn't do it.
229. 13:37There were people who knew you didn't do it,  And I assume the prison guards and the wardens,
230. 13:42they're treating you like any  other prisoner, as you said.
231. 13:45the worst amongst us. This is not  some prison where they sent Martha
232. 13:48Stewart. This is the real deal. How did  like momentum start going to say, hey,
233. 13:56we think we got the wrong guy here. How  did that It wasn't quick, that's for sure.
234. 14:00Anthony Graves (13:59) row,
235. 14:00no, no, no, it wasn't quick, right? It  took a lot of effort, right? ⁓ Anybody
236. 14:07that would write to me, I don't care if  it was a six-year-old kid writing crayon,
237. 14:12I would respond and ask them, could you ask  your mom or your dad to help me save my life?
238. 14:18I wrote so many letters to so many people  asking them to please help me save my life.
239. 14:23that people start learning my story.  I'm talking about from New York to
240. 14:30⁓ Germany to Switzerland to Sweden to Norway to  Italy, all these people started coming together
241. 14:36after they learned my story. And we created  an organization called Join Hands for Justice.
242. 14:41I created sitting on death row over in France.  And from France, it took off across the country.
243. 14:46And from over there, they started talking  about my case and it got to the shores of
244. 14:50America. And when I was right in the backyard  already, but when it once it got over here,
245. 14:55a independent investigator came down to  interview me. And after she interviewed me,
246. 15:00she was so shocked about my story. She  went to the innocent project and said,
247. 15:04I think y'all need to investigate  this case. So the innocent project.
248. 15:08was holding a symposium and this lady she was  a journalist professor and her students they
249. 15:13were there at this death penalty symposium and  they were talking about my case and they were
250. 15:18talking about my case being on a fast-track  execution had never really been investigated
251. 15:23and wanted to know who would be willing to just  investigate the case just to look into it and the
252. 15:28The journalist professor and her students were  there. She said she looked around, nobody raised
253. 15:32their hand. She looked at her students and  they looked at her and they all raised their
254. 15:35hand together, which was like a blessing for me.  Because for the next nine to eight to 10 years,
255. 15:41this lady and her students overturned every  rock that proved my innocence. And that's
256. 15:46how it became knowledgeable in America that  this innocent being was on Texas death row.
257. 15:51Paul S DelPonte (15:38) Okay.
258. 15:51So that is quite a story. You go from  prison in Texas to momentum in France,
259. 15:58back to the US, to group of journalist students,  and then it takes the life of its own. So you
260. 16:04were in prison for how long before this  started happening? About two years then?
261. 16:07Anthony Graves (16:07) I know I was in prison for
262. 16:10about eight years before this journalist came into  my life. Eight to ten years I was already there.
263. 16:16Paul S DelPonte (16:15) Okay, eight to ten years and you were thinking,
264. 16:18oh my God, I'm gonna get put to death for
265. 16:20something I didn't do this  whole time, I'd imagine.
266. 16:22Anthony Graves (16:19) Yes.
267. 16:22wow, yeah, I mean, you ⁓ you definitely  think about your own mortality down there
268. 16:27because every other day someone  is getting executed that you know.
269. 16:31Sometimes twice a day we're executing  people, right? there were over 403
270. 16:35men around me that I got to know down there  that was executed by the state of Texas. So,
271. 16:39you know, of course you're going to  think about your own mortality. I
272. 16:42remember the first time they gave me an  execution date and they took me down to
273. 16:46the office and they sent me in the chair  to tell me that the state had had call.
274. 16:51and they had sent me an execution date and  they was going to kill me. It was around my
275. 16:56son's birthday and they wanted me to know  what I wanted them to do with my body,
276. 17:01what I wanted my last meal to be. But I tell  you this, that day changed my whole life again.
277. 17:08And that was the same, that day was when  I was starting, I started living on death
278. 17:13row. After that, they told me there was something,  there was a thought that came in my mind that just
279. 17:18saved my whole life, my sanity and everything,  and allowed me to start living on death
280. 17:23row through all of that. And the thought was  this, and I'll share this with your viewers.
281. 17:27Paul S DelPonte (17:27) Please
282. 17:27do.
283. 17:28Anthony Graves (17:28) I ask your viewers,
284. 17:29sometime when you're in a situation where you  feel that there's no hope or that you feel that
285. 17:35you need to give up or that everybody  else is in control of the situation,
286. 17:38this is what the thought that came to my mind  that saved my life. And it was simple. Man,
287. 17:44I'm just going to live till I die.  Ain't nothing nobody can do about
288. 17:47that. I'm just going to live till I  die. That's it. That saved my life.
289. 17:49Paul S DelPonte (17:49) Sometimes the simplest things
290. 17:51make most sense.
291. 17:52Anthony Graves (17:52) Yes sir, that saved my life to
292. 17:54know that I had the power and I had the choice  to continue to live until I die. Regardless of
293. 17:59what anyone was planning for my life, I can  live till I die. That's powerful for me.
294. 18:04Paul S DelPonte (18:04) you prove the people who were wrong,
295. 18:06wrong, through that power. it is amazing  to me and I think to our listeners and
296. 18:11viewers that your spirit, your mindset  is what saved you. So you've got this
297. 18:16group of journalists on the outside  in your corner pulling for you. ⁓
298. 18:22And you're on the inside with on death  row. I assume that means very little
299. 18:28freedom. Even within, even within a  situation where there is no freedom,
300. 18:33you have even less than, than  most. And what was the treatment?
301. 18:36Anthony Graves (18:29) very little.
302. 18:37Yes.
303. 18:37⁓ it was inhumane. Like I said, I was in a  cage, a six by nine cage, 23 hours a day,
304. 18:43right? One hour I can come out and walk  around in a bigger cage that called it
305. 18:47recreation. And that was it. You  could shower three times a week.
306. 18:50⁓ On the weekends, you're just locked in  there from Friday to Monday morning, 20,
307. 18:5524 hours a day. I can take my hands, open  up my arms and basically touch the walls.
308. 19:02And I take three steps forward,  I'm at the front door, I take
309. 19:05three steps backwards, I'm at the back of them.
310. 19:07back of my cage, right? and the rules  are really there to dehumanize you,
311. 19:13to treat you less than. And so I would see  a lot of men lose their minds, going crazy,
312. 19:18dropping their pills, hanging themselves  in their cells. These are things you don't
313. 19:21really hear about in the public because  they don't want you to know, but that's
314. 19:24what's going on down there regularly. Guys are  just, the conditions are driving me insane,
315. 19:29right? And they haven't even gone  through their appeal process yet.
316. 19:32Paul S DelPonte (19:32) So you're persevering
317. 19:33through all this. You've got this  thought, live each day, live my life.
318. 19:37Something must have motivated you persevere,  to not take your own life, to not give up.
319. 19:45I'm just fascinated that you are where you are  today because of you. And I want to hear more.
320. 19:50Anthony Graves (19:46) Well, yeah. Yeah.
321. 19:50Well, let me take you back then to the I was  in jail for like three weeks. Right. And,
322. 19:56you know, I, you know, one of the things  about believing in God and I'll take you
323. 20:00to this when we learn to believe in  God, usually it's because our parents
324. 20:05had told us when we were little kids  and we start believing in God because
325. 20:08that's what we learned from our parents.  go to church, sing in the choir, all that.
326. 20:12But at the end of the day, we really don't  have a personal relationship with him when
327. 20:16we start believing in him. We believe in him  for other reasons. Like I said, our parents,
328. 20:20we were taught whatever, but that's no real  personal relationship there, right? So when I
329. 20:26was arrested, I had been in jail three weeks. I've  been reading my Bible, I'm doing all the right
330. 20:31thing. I'm praying because I'm innocent and I  shouldn't be here. Well, after about three weeks.
331. 20:35and I also come to the cell and I'm  standing up at the cell and he said,
332. 20:38Graze, and he me some papers. Where's  the indictment papers for capital murder?
333. 20:43Right? So I had just been reading the  Bible. And so after I got those papers,
334. 20:47I was so upset that I looked around on my  bunk and I seen the Bible was still there.
335. 20:52I was so upset I went and got the Bible and  throw it in the corner. I didn't want to read
336. 20:55that Bible. I didn't want to have nothing to  do with that because here it is, I'm innocent.
337. 20:59I'm praying. I'm doing all the things that my  parents told me I should be doing. And yet,
338. 21:03I just got some indictment papers. So by  3 o'clock that morning, I could not sleep,
339. 21:08but that Bible was still over there in that  corner. It's just something in my head said,
340. 21:12man, go pick that Bible up. I got off my bunk  and I just went to pick it up just because.
341. 21:17That was how I couldn't sleep. So I picked the  Bible up. And if you look at my book, read my
342. 21:22book, and when I open up my Bible, the Bible, my  book is called Infinite Hope by Anthony Grace,
343. 21:31how 12 years a solitaire, and I failed to  kill my soul. But when I open up the Bible,
344. 21:37to paraphrase what it said to me, it said, I  will not put no more on you than you can bear.
345. 21:43Paul S DelPonte (21:25) Let's give our listeners the name of the book.
346. 21:43And it's a must read.
347. 21:43Anthony Graves (21:43) That was the message. I
348. 21:44will not put no more on you than you can  bear. At that point, my whole life started
349. 21:49to change. I started now paying attention  to why me? Why am I here? What's going on
350. 21:54around me? And then I was convicted and I was  sentenced to death. And so now I'm on death
351. 21:58row and I get an execution date and I'm  seeing so many people being murdered around
352. 22:02me. So I find myself going to sleep at night  crying. I don't even care to be here no more.
353. 22:07Okay, it's not that I'm guilty, I'm an innocent  man, but what I'm witnessing, all this inhumanity
354. 22:12around me, it just takes your spirit. And  I don't even care to be here no more. But I
355. 22:17lay down and I'm crying, tears rolling down my  face. But then I wake up and I'm ready to fight
356. 22:23again. Renewed energy, renewed strength. Where  did that come from? I didn't understand what was
357. 22:28going on. I started really paying attention.  Then I started talking to my God, just...
358. 22:33They call it prayer, but I was just talking  because I needed somebody to listen to me. Who
359. 22:37better to talk to than the person that I said  I believed in? And I will say to them, Jesus,
360. 22:41if you're real, I need you now. I need you more  now than ever because I can't do this. As a man,
361. 22:47I can't do this. This is hard. I witnessed so  much inhumanity. But I noticed that every morning
362. 22:54I still had the strength to fight for my life.  And so I started saying, you know what, Anthony?
363. 22:58Pay attention to what's ahead of you, not what's  behind you. Because people behind you are trying
364. 23:04to catch up and kill you for something you didn't  do. But there's a light in front of you. That
365. 23:08if you pay attention to that light, you can get  to where you're going. And it's called freedom.
366. 23:12And I knew that light was God because that  light started shining bright in front of me.
367. 23:16And I started paying attention to it. I just  needed to get to that light. Just pay attention,
368. 23:20Anthony. Don't worry about what's going on  behind you, because you can't control that.
369. 23:24Just pay attention to where you're trying  to go. That's when I understood how real
370. 23:28God was in my life. That's when I understood  that I had a relationship with the person
371. 23:33that I said that I really believed in, but  never showed up. Now he's showing up for me,
372. 23:38because I know I'm not doing this by  myself. I can't do it. I want to give up.
373. 23:42But something would not let me give up,
374. 23:44Paul S DelPonte (23:44) you're talking to someone who
375. 23:46was steeped in Catholic school, Catholic  college, in just a couple minutes,
376. 23:50you synthesized and made very crystal clear  true meaning of faith better than I can recall
377. 23:59any priest or any philosopher ⁓ saying because  it was real and it was right in front of you.
378. 24:05Anthony Graves (24:04) It was
379. 24:05my life. It was right in front of me, man.
380. 24:08Paul S DelPonte (24:08) So you've got this
381. 24:09group of journalists who are trying to do  the right thing. And didn't live what you
382. 24:13live through and hope I got to pray to  God I never do or anybody I know does,
383. 24:18but I know enough about the system  and systems in general. When the
384. 24:23system thinks they've got something right  and they put the wheels in motion where
385. 24:27they were headed to take your life, it's not  easy to stop those wheels and reverse them.
386. 24:33So you've got this uphill battle. how did they and
387. 24:36you start making enough noise that you  were able to get those gears stopped?
388. 24:40Anthony Graves (24:41) It was just, you it was
389. 24:42a build up. You know, the professor, the  journalist professor, her name is Nicole Katsura,
390. 24:46I I want to put a name to it because  this is a lady that saved my life.
391. 24:50Paul S DelPonte (24:49) Please do.
392. 24:50Anthony Graves (24:50) right, her and her students,
393. 24:52but it was mostly her. She was an attorney, she  turned to a journalist professor. Then she went
394. 24:56back and got her license as an attorney and  became part of my team. And she turned over
395. 25:01every rock and she talked to everybody,  anybody. She did news press conference,
396. 25:06went to symposium, she went to Innocent  Clinic, she did everything she could.
397. 25:11because she knew she was representing there  an innocent man. And so it just started
398. 25:17picking up from there, man. And then I started  hearing hearings and the other attorneys drawn
399. 25:22on my case. And then the court started  acknowledging that this man is innocent,
400. 25:26that this man is innocent. And  eventually they passed a law,
401. 25:31a ruling claiming my innocence, citing  egregious prosecutorial misconduct.
402. 25:36That was the only reason that I was  in jail on death row now because of
403. 25:40egregious prosecutorial misconduct. And  that's because she was able to show them
404. 25:45all the evidence that proved my innocence  and that proved that they manipulated,
405. 25:50they lied, they cheated, they threatened  witnesses, they did everything to secure
406. 25:54a conviction of an innocent man. And  she was able to prove that over time.
407. 25:58Paul S DelPonte (25:36) Okay.
408. 25:58Now,
409. 25:58that last part, you make it  sound straightforward and simple,
410. 26:02but I'm sure it wasn't. How  long are we talking here?
411. 26:05Anthony Graves (26:03) No,
412. 26:05we're talking at that time, we're talking  10 years, 10 years to execution. Yes, yes.
413. 26:10Paul S DelPonte (26:09) 10 years, OK. So 10 years,
414. 26:12you know you're innocent.  Now you have her, and bless
415. 26:16her, who knows you're innocent. And  slowly, more and more people are saying,
416. 26:21hey, this guy's innocent. So 10 years  of that, though. And you're still,
417. 26:25you're not looking in the rear view mirror. You're  looking straight at the windshield going forward.
418. 26:29Anthony Graves (26:29) Man, my mind at this point is
419. 26:31this here. You gonna kill me or you gonna free  me? That's not gonna be a compromise. Because
420. 26:35they had been trying to give me the compromise.  They had been trying to give me take a plea,
421. 26:39a plea. They even at the end asked my  attorney, well, would offer him time served,
422. 26:45would he plead guilty? And he could leave the  same day, right? It had gotten to that point.
423. 26:50So my attorney has to tell me all this.  So she comes back and says, Anthony,
424. 26:54⁓ I know you're innocent and all that,  but I need to tell you what they're
425. 26:59offering. They want to know what you'll  be willing to take time served. She said,
426. 27:03people who think you guilty are going to think you  guilty. People who know you're innocent are going
427. 27:07to believe in your innocence. I want to save  your life, but I understand. I just want to,
428. 27:11I just have to tell you what they're  offering and they're offering time served.
429. 27:15if you plead guilty, that means you can leave  today. And my response was, if that's the offer,
430. 27:21then they're going to be feeding me and myself  tonight. They're going to kill me or they're
431. 27:25going to free me. That's not going to be a  compromise. I am not compromising the truth.
432. 27:28And that's how it is. So because of that,  I stayed an extra four more years and three
433. 27:33months behind steel double doors at the  local jail when they overturned my case
434. 27:37because they was trying to break my  will and it was trying to get me to
435. 27:40take a plea for something I did not  do. And I was not going to do that.
436. 27:43Paul S DelPonte (27:43) So they're clearly trying to
437. 27:45break your spirit. completely unsuccessful. I can  tell just by the time we were spending together,
438. 27:53and good for you. the first execution  date wasn't the only one you were given.
439. 27:59Anthony Graves (27:47) Yes.
440. 27:59Yeah.
441. 27:59Wow, well, first time, right, it was premature.  hadn't, and the thing about it, hadn't even
442. 28:04exhausted my appeals. They were trying,  they were hoping that my attorneys were not,
443. 28:08I guess, experienced enough to where they  wouldn't file the correct papers and they
444. 28:13would execute me on the technicality, right?  So, but my attorneys did file the motion for
445. 28:18state. Three months after I got the first day of  execution, they sent me another execution date.
446. 28:24They were doing them all prematurely. My  attorneys had to file a motion to the judge,
447. 28:31asking the judge to admonish the DA for setting  these premature execution dates because not only
448. 28:37were they harming me, they were harming my mother,  my family member, and I hadn't even exhausted my
449. 28:41appeals. They were just hoping that we would make  a mistake. They would execute me and nobody's
450. 28:45gonna ever ask about the case. No one would  ever know about Anthony Gray's being innocent.
451. 28:50Paul S DelPonte (28:50) tell us a little bit about
452. 28:51the main attorney, Nicole. She was happy  teaching journalism and enjoying her job,
453. 28:57I'm guessing. And then here's  about you and feels compelled.
454. 29:00Anthony Graves (28:56) Yeah.
455. 29:00Yeah.
456. 29:00Paul S DelPonte (29:00) And,
457. 29:01you know, obviously you're in  prison, you're not a wealthy man,
458. 29:04you're not a billionaire who's gonna pay a lot  of money. Yeah. How is she through all this?
459. 29:13Anthony Graves (29:06) I never met one down there.
460. 29:13So ⁓ Nicole today is my big sister. We have a  great relationship, right? Because when she came
461. 29:19in, and here's the thing I admire about Nicole  is Nicole did her homework before she came to
462. 29:28visit me. And the reason why she did it like  that is she said, after that, spent two years.
463. 29:33Paul S DelPonte (29:21) Well that part warms my heart.
464. 29:33Anthony Graves (29:33) researching your case before
465. 29:34I came to see you because I wanted to know  the case. I didn't want to come and sit down
466. 29:38and someone were able to manipulate me and  tell me things that were not true. She said,
467. 29:43so I already did the homework. So when I came  to you, I knew you were already innocent. But I
468. 29:49didn't know that. So when she came to me the first  day to visit me and her and a student sat down,
469. 29:54she asked me, says, is there anything you'd like  to tell me? And I said to her, I said, yes, ma'am.
470. 29:59I just want you know that I'm not finna sit out  here and try to convince you that I'm innocent.
471. 30:02If you do the work, you'll probably find out  that I'm innocent. But I have a problem with
472. 30:07sitting here trying to tell people that I'm  innocent because there's this narrative that
473. 30:11all people say that they're innocent and it's not  true. So I don't want to feel like I need to tell
474. 30:15you that I'm innocent. I just want you to know  who I am and let you know that I've been messed
475. 30:20over. And so she told me what was really great  for me. She said, well, I just want you to know.
476. 30:24I've already been looking into your  case and we already believe in your
477. 30:27innocence. That was like a weight off  my shoulders because I did not want to
478. 30:31try to convince somebody that I was  innocent. I didn't need to do that.
479. 30:34Paul S DelPonte (30:34) Okay, so you are.
480. 30:35Alone on death row, you've obviously very  skilled, sharp legal mind and young students
481. 30:42around her years, still years ahead of you.  give our listeners a sense of, you know,
482. 30:48the day to day, the week to week, you're  like, I can only imagine it must've been
483. 30:52like a roller coaster. You get one little bit  of good news and then you get shot down again.
484. 30:56What was it like?
485. 30:58Anthony Graves (30:58) So living on death row,
486. 31:00you come to learn really quick that you  can't let your highs be too high or your
487. 31:04lows be too low. That's information all the  time, right? It's a marathon, not a sprint,
488. 31:09okay? And at the end, either free or  they kill you, okay? Those are the facts.
489. 31:15I so living on death row, man, it's like  every day is the same day pretty much. It's
490. 31:19a monotonous experience. ⁓ You wake up at two,  three o'clock in the morning because that's when
491. 31:24they feed you your first breakfast. Breakfast  is basically. Ball egg, one one pint of spa
492. 31:31milk. So a biscuit and some jelly and that's your  that's your breakfast at three in the morning and
493. 31:36then about nine o'clock you get lunch. Right  and lunch would be about a green sandwich.
494. 31:41with some chips and some, guess they  call it Kool-Aid, but you can't even
495. 31:47drink it because it's so strong. It cleans  your hot pot out and stuff like that. So
496. 31:51it's not even good for your insides, right?  And then by three o'clock in the evening is
497. 31:56your last meal, your dinner. And it can  be anything from a chicken patty to...
498. 32:02But it's never no good meals. just, I don't  want to paint a picture that you eating really
499. 32:06good. No, if your family, if you don't have  family members of support from the outside,
500. 32:10they'll send you money so that you can buy a  commissary because it's a business down there,
501. 32:14just like anything else. And they're making  money. And if you don't have someone who can
502. 32:17support you in that way, then you just at  the mercy of the state and the state don't
503. 32:21really care about people that trying  to kill. Okay. So, so the every day
504. 32:25was that type of day. And then you would have  chaos where officers were gassing inmates who
505. 32:30was refusing to reg, or who was already losing  their minds and not following any rules. Or, you
506. 32:36know, sometimes there's an execution day going on  and the guy don't want to come out of his cell to
507. 32:40be executed. So they have to put on their gear and  they go in and beat him and bring him out so that
508. 32:45they can strap him to the gurney and take him off  and kill every day for 6,640 days that I lived.
509. 32:52Paul S DelPonte (32:52) And you are absolutely
510. 32:53right. That is something that a movie, a  TV show can't give you a full picture of.
511. 32:59And you're living it. ⁓ So as you say, you  try not to let the highs be too high and
512. 33:05the lows too low. So you're trying to  keep an even keel, even sense of mind.
513. 33:09Anthony Graves (32:59) No, no.
514. 33:09Paul S DelPonte (33:09) your lawyers were successful,
515. 33:10were you in the courtroom that day? Did they come  back and they tell you? How did you find out?
516. 33:14Anthony Graves (33:14) wow, man, wow. how I found out is October 27,
517. 33:20⁓ 2010. Now I'd already been back in the county  jail because my case had been overturned by the
518. 33:26Fifth Circuit Court of Appeal, right? One of the  most conservative courts, the most conservative
519. 33:31court in our nation gave me a three-o vote,  citing egregious prosecutorial misconduct.
520. 33:35overturned my conviction. So now they  take me back to the jail because the
521. 33:39local prosecutor decided they're going to  retry the case. It didn't matter to them,
522. 33:42but that was just smoke. They were trying to  get me to plead. So they take me back. I spent
523. 33:46four more years and three months, as I said.  So this day, October 27th, the officer came
524. 33:52to my cell and understand I'm still in solitary  confinement. I've been in solitary confinement
525. 33:5716 or 18 and half years that I was there,  right? Still trying to break my will to live.
526. 34:02But the officer come to me that day, he open up,  raise up the flap and looks inside my cell and he
527. 34:07said, hey, put your shirt on, come go with me.  And I'm asking him, where are we going? Right?
528. 34:11Because at this time it's time for them to  feed ⁓ dinner and I'm hungry. So I'm like,
529. 34:18hey man, where are we going? He said, just  put your shirt on, come go. So I my shirt on,
530. 34:22he opened up the steel doors and now he  and I, we're gonna walk down the hall.
531. 34:26So I'm asking him, say, hey man, where we going?  He said, just walk with me. And at this time,
532. 34:31I've been in jail long enough to know  my rights, Gideon versus Wainwright,
533. 34:37that you have a right to an attorney.  So I started telling him, hey man,
534. 34:39I can't go nowhere with you without my attorney,  right? So, because I noticed that we wasn't going
535. 34:44into the attorney booth, we was going straight  down the hall. And I'm getting scared because...
536. 34:49has been noted that, you know, here it is.  I've exposed them for these lies and now they
537. 34:54talking about me walking up here with this  officer. Now he's going to make it look like
538. 34:57I'm trying to escape. They're going to kill  me and nobody's going to ask the question,
539. 35:00right? So I'm getting scared. So  I'm saying, hey, I can't go nowhere.
540. 35:05So by this time we get to the front, he opens  up this door and I see my attorneys. So OK,
541. 35:10good. So I exhale, I walk into the  room and I see my attorney Nicole.
542. 35:15Paul S DelPonte (35:01) ⁓ I'm with you, I've been shaking.
543. 35:15Anthony Graves (35:15) along with another attorney of mine,
544. 35:16Jimmy Phillips Jr. Nicole, when I walk in, she  stands up and I can tell that she's trying to
545. 35:22back back her tears. I can see she's crying,  right? But in my mind, it's just more bad news,
546. 35:27but I don't care. They're going to free me or  they're going to kill me. It's not going to
547. 35:30be a compromise, right? That's just, my mind is  made up, right? I'm going to stand for something.
548. 35:36And so Nicole looks at me and she said, Anthony,  you remember when you told me that God was good?
549. 35:41And I said, yeah, but in my mind, like,  where you going with this? Because I'm
550. 35:44hungry. Where's the food? I don't know  what's happening. And then she looks,
551. 35:49she said, well, I want you to know that  God is good, Anthony, because the state
552. 35:54just dismissed all the charges against you.  And they didn't dismiss the charges because
553. 35:58witnesses have died. Or they didn't dismiss  the charges because evidence have got lost.
554. 36:03They dismissed the charges because they  believe in your innocence. And I asked her.
555. 36:08Paul S DelPonte (36:08) So there were joyful
556. 36:08tears.
557. 36:09Anthony Graves (36:09) I said, yeah. So I said,
558. 36:10what did you say? Because that just went over my  head. I had a shield and a sword in my hand. I
559. 36:15wasn't ready for that news. And she said, yeah,  it's over with, man. Put these clothes on and
560. 36:20let's get out. And by this time, I've been in a  building for 18 and half years. I don't even know
561. 36:26my size. So by this time the officer comes in who  had escorted me down the hall, he said, Mr. Gray,
562. 36:31would you like to go get your property? Because  he had already knew, but he didn't tell me.
563. 36:34Paul S DelPonte (36:26) Wow.
564. 36:34Anthony Graves (36:34) I said, yeah, let me go
565. 36:35get my property. But it wasn't property that  I wanted to get. I didn't know what to do. I
566. 36:39was so discombobulated because for 6,640 days,  I had this dream of waking up and being at home,
567. 36:46only to be waking up inside of a cage. And  now here it is. It seems so real to me that
568. 36:52if it's not as real, how am I going to get back  from this? Because this seems so real. So by
569. 36:57the time me and the officer started walking  down the hallway, it just dawned on me, man.
570. 37:01Man, this is over with. It's over with. So  by the time we get to the sale, he said,
571. 37:05well, what do you want out of your sale?  I said, man, I don't want nothing. Let's
572. 37:08just go before y'all change y'all He said,  no, man, just get what you want. I said,
573. 37:12let me get my photos and my legal stuff  and y'all can have everything else,
574. 37:16right? I want to go. And just like that,  man, October 27, 2010, I went in jail when
575. 37:22I was a week from my 27th birthday. And  on this day, I'm walking out of here.
576. 37:26Paul S DelPonte (37:21) Wow.
577. 37:26Anthony Graves (37:26) 45 years old, never be like my 30s. Don't have
578. 37:27Paul S DelPonte (37:28) 45 years old, you obviously don't have a career.
579. 37:31was an award, I understand.  Was it the state acknowledging
580. 37:35you were wrongfully accused or  did you have to sue the state?
581. 37:38Anthony Graves (37:33) We want to end the war.
582. 37:38No, no, no. The state acknowledged me being  wrongfully convicted. They acknowledged my
583. 37:41innocence and they compensated me. ⁓ You  know, what do I do? I call it compensation.
584. 37:47Paul S DelPonte (37:44) Okay.
585. 37:47I don't know, I
586. 37:48can't imagine, you know, money's nice, but  it doesn't replace what you live through.
587. 37:54Anthony Graves (37:50) The game will take part of it.
588. 37:54No, doesn't.
589. 37:54No, I took that money and I invested it into  my nonprofit to try to help other people,
590. 37:58man. So yeah, that's what I do. I know it's not  about, it's not about riches. It's about legacy.
591. 38:04Paul S DelPonte (37:59) Good for you.
592. 38:04and you are not alone.
593. 38:06Let's talk about that for a few minutes  because I don't want people to believe,
594. 38:10this is just so random. And just, this  could never happen. It was one in a
595. 38:14million. It's not one out of a million.  Is that right? Tell us more about that.
596. 38:18Anthony Graves (38:16) No, no, it's
597. 38:18No, it's not one in a million. You know, we  have, I forget how many states in our nation
598. 38:23that believe in the death penalty,  that supports the death penalty,
599. 38:25that practices the death penalty. Okay, if you  believe in the death penalty and all of that,
600. 38:29that's fine. I have no argument with that. I  have no argument at all about anybody's belief.
601. 38:34in the death penalty, do not believe in the death  penalty, that is between you and your God. I have
602. 38:39no problem with that because I don't want someone  to tell me how to feel if someone does something
603. 38:44to my loved one. So I have no problem with you  for or against the death penalty. But what I
604. 38:49do know is that I was death row exoneree number  138 back in 2000. That means that 137 minutes.
605. 38:58before me walked off our nation's  death row innocent. And now we're
606. 39:02up to about 190 since I've been high.  So now we know for a fact that we have
607. 39:08sentenced at least 190 men to death on  our nation's death row. Are we willing
608. 39:16to have that much collateral damage just to  keep a death penalty that we can't control?
609. 39:21Because we're not reason why I say we can't  control it. Innocent men are finding themselves
610. 39:27on death row for crimes they did not commit,  meaning we no longer can control it. Are we
611. 39:33okay with murdering innocent people just  to say we have the death penalty? Because
612. 39:38we know 190 people have walked off our  nation's death row innocent. Innocent.
613. 39:44So we have to wrestle with that. Not do you  believe in the death penalty, but does the
614. 39:48death penalty work? We know it doesn't work  all the time. What are we willing to do about
615. 39:52Paul S DelPonte (39:53) Well, there's one thing that
616. 39:54we do and we encourage victims to speak up and  what you have done, what you continue to do,
617. 40:02what I know you are going to wake up tomorrow  and do again is speak up. And for that,
618. 40:07it is just amazing that your mindset  has brought you probably, know,
619. 40:14It's I would say it's almost the flip side  of how you had a rationalized being on death
620. 40:19row where you don't let the the highs get too high  and the lows get too low you have lived the lowest
621. 40:25that I could imagine and you have elevated  that now to incredible heights doing things
622. 40:32that people can't imagine you testify before  congress is that right and you wrote a book
623. 40:37Anthony Graves (40:36) Yes.
624. 40:37Paul S DelPonte (40:38) and you're speaking out,
625. 40:39you formed a nonprofit, you're doing all these
626. 40:41amazing things because of your beliefs.  And that's just absolutely incredible.
627. 40:45Anthony Graves (40:42) Yes.
628. 40:46Yes, it's at the end of the day, I'm going say  also a selfishness. I'm taking back my life.
629. 40:52Paul S DelPonte (40:52) you've taken back your life.
630. 40:53Now I have a very simple question.  You mentioned that beautiful day in
631. 40:57October where there's your tearful attorney Nicole
632. 41:01Just imagine the emotion going through her  mind and you were supposed to get food.
633. 41:06Now, I don't know, so I gotta  ask, what's your favorite meal?
634. 41:09Anthony Graves (41:05) Yeah.
635. 41:09⁓ man, my favorite meal is, keep  it simple, steak and potatoes.
636. 41:14Paul S DelPonte (41:15) Steak and potatoes, okay, well,
637. 41:16if you ever find yourself in Washington,  D.C., or if I ever find my way in Texas,
638. 41:21we're going out for the best  steak and potatoes we can find.
639. 41:25Anthony Graves (41:25) You
640. 41:25know, I'll be in DC on the 21st of  this month. The 21st, the 27th, yes,
641. 41:30I'm coming this week. I'll be  over in New York for a second.
642. 41:31Paul S DelPonte (41:28) What, this month? I got a
643. 41:32couple places in mind. Let's do it,  man. We're gonna do it. We're gonna
644. 41:37eat well and continue this story  because I'm just fascinated. I'm
645. 41:41just motivated by your spirit I just  can't say enough good things about
646. 41:45you. for our listeners out there, Do  me a favor in the comment section.
647. 41:49Tell us your thoughts about Anthony's  spirit because I'm just amazed. I'd
648. 41:53love to read those comments.  Love to read it. Anthony Grace,
649. 41:56thank you. We got a date on the 21st. See you  in Washington. And for those of you out there,
650. 42:02don't forget to click like and subscribe and  join us again next week on True Crime Prevention.
651. 42:09Anthony Graves (42:01) Yes, sir.