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Steve Scalzi on his NBA Coaching Methods and Constraints — Transcript

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0:00Steve, welcome to the Basketball
0:02Podcast.
0:03>> Thanks, Chris. Appreciate the
0:04opportunity, man.
0:05>> Fun to talk to you. What a summer.
0:07Really, when you think about it, you got
0:09a chance to do just about everything.
0:10Run the pre-draft workouts, coach summer
0:12league team, and now moving into the
0:14fall, get a chance to be head coach of
0:16the Motor City G-League team. So, pretty
0:19exciting.
0:20>> Yeah, thank you, Chris. To be clear, the
0:21G-League group did an incredible job
0:23running our draft workouts. and we were
0:25in the NBA playoffs and not long after
0:27that I was given the chance to be the
0:28summer league head coach and the chance
0:31to do that and wrap that up as being the
0:33G-League head coach for Motor City. I'm
0:35entirely grateful. It's a really
0:37exciting opportunity.
0:38>> You probably had so many ideas in your
0:40mind for all these years and now you get
0:42a chance to try a few of them and apply
0:44them as well. And how is that for you to
0:46be able to window down those ideas to
0:47the ones you could actually use?
0:49>> You want to fit in within the larger
0:50program, right? Like JB Baker staff does
0:52an incredible job. Trejan Langden sets
0:54the pace for the place and chooses the
0:56players and I fall into his system and
0:58JB is the best communicator I've ever
0:59worked for. He makes it abundantly clear
1:01what the role and the responsibility is
1:03and what you're supposed to do as a
1:04coach and I think he makes it equally as
1:06clear for his players. So with that
1:08being the case trying to smooth into
1:09that I feel like I have a nice set of
1:11marching orders and then there'll
1:13probably be moments Chris Noblesville
1:15and overtime where you try an idea but
1:17for the most part we want to mirror the
1:18big club.
1:19>> Absolutely. And so I got a few texts
1:22this summer about you and we hadn't done
1:24the podcast yet, but we've been talking
1:26about it and it was pretty exciting to
1:27see all these texts come in after a lot
1:29of people saw you speak at coaching you
1:32and people kept texting me saying you
1:34got to have this guy on and I said
1:36ironically he's coming on at some point
1:38if we can make it work. Congrats on that
1:39and what a cool experience and I'm sure
1:41you got a lot of great feedback too.
1:43>> Yeah, thank you. That was very cool.
1:44That was a truly unique experience. I
1:46always credit Brendan sir with one of
1:48those guys who taught me how to coach if
1:49you will from afar. Kevin Eastman was in
1:51Boston when I was there as an assistant
1:53coach at Northeastern University. I was
1:55ingrained in the Northeast and New
1:57England hoop scene and later on when I
2:00went to the NBA I just kind of continued
2:02to follow their progress. Now there are
2:04many guys who I've worked with who've
2:06over overlapped with that program and
2:08the chance to speak at that that was
2:10truly unique. It was pretty awesome. I I
2:11probably bought the DVDs 15 years ago.
2:13>> Very cool. full circle and Brennan's a
2:16great guy and awesome what him and Zach
2:17have built there with coaching you just
2:19tremendous. So I'm going to ask you a
2:20few things that came up from the
2:22presentation that I think would be add
2:23value to all of our listeners and one of
2:25them is the term shotline. Can you talk
2:27to us about the term shotline?
2:29>> Yeah, a million years ago working with a
2:31guy like Kevin Durant, I noticed that he
2:33would do this drill and I think he might
2:34have adapted it from Steve Nash, Adam
2:37Harrington. There's a lot of other great
2:38coaches before me. didn't create it, but
2:40it's more or less you just touch the
2:41floor with the ball and the touch the
2:44floor creates a natural shot line that
2:46sort of connects your kinetic chain up
2:48towards the hoop. And I've just always
2:51preferred that over form shooting and
2:52anything that's very stationary.
2:54>> We can I think most coaches can probably
2:56visual visualize it. If not, you can
2:57search it. I've seen it many times. And
2:59it's just curious to hear the term
3:01connect to that. And you mentioned
3:02kinetic chain. So just explain that to
3:04coaches that don't know what kinetic
3:05chain is.
3:06>> Golly, I wish I could. I'm not an
3:08expert. I'm not an expert. I just know
3:10the flow. And we use that term a lot.
3:12The flow of look, if you're on the wing
3:14and you're in transition and you catch
3:16and shoot and you feel like that shot's
3:18about to go in, you feel a certain flow.
3:21And I feel like that is when your
3:23kinetic chain is at your best. So
3:25therefore, when you're taking flow
3:28warm-ups where you touch the floor,
3:29where you're taking mid-range shots,
3:31where we're just practicing the flow of
3:34what this looks like, almost like it's
3:36batting practice and then building that
3:37out to catch and shoot three. To me,
3:39they're all the same. I think off the
3:41dribble, you can also access and find
3:43the same flow. And it it resembles
3:46connecting the same kinetic chain as the
3:48touch the floor drill.
3:49>> Yeah, you nailed it there. But it just
3:51means of all of our body is
3:52interconnected. It's not their muscles
3:54aren't separate from our bones, from our
3:56fascia. It all works together in this
3:58flow. And that's definitely a big part
4:00of it. Now, I've said it a few times on
4:02this podcast. One of the main questions
4:04to ask someone to be able to feel this
4:06kinetic chain is how does it feel? It
4:08shouldn't feel effortless. I assume that
4:10connects to what you're talking about.
4:12>> Yeah. I say finish high. I say this
4:14should be effortless. Hand to rim, touch
4:16a net, things of that nature that are
4:18visual cues that are also physical or
4:21maybe kinetic cues. of course our
4:23knowledge of these differential learning
4:24type of shooting techniques that again a
4:27lot of people pioneered long before we
4:29really understood what they were and
4:30kind of the biomechanics and the science
4:32behind it. But do you use these at the
4:35beginning of a workout? Is that
4:36primarily where you use them or where do
4:38you integrate these type of shot type of
4:40challenges?
4:41>> At the start of a workout just kind of
4:42while you're in conversation, right?
4:44Touch the floor with it. Touch it twice.
4:46A lot of times I tell players send it to
4:48the moon. Just shoot it to the sky. I
4:49don't care if it makes or not. you're
4:51physically warming up the experience of
4:53touching, flowing, shooting, sending.
4:56And I think people become result-based.
4:58And you don't have to be until you start
5:01to kind of actually access your body.
5:03And some of that involves I'll throw it
5:05to your left hand, bring it back to your
5:08shot line, I'll throw it to your right
5:10hand, bring it back to your shot line.
5:12In the same sense, we'll warm up off the
5:14dribble to your shot line. And then the
5:17game calls for what it calls for, right?
5:19There's a million moves, a bunch of
5:20physicality, and all of a sudden, this
5:22might be your shot line. And as you
5:25might know from where I started with the
5:27Kevin Durant concept is Kevin shoots a
5:29little bit like this. And when he does
5:31his shot line is different from other
5:32athletes, accessing yours and finding
5:35yours, that can be part of conversation
5:36just as warm-ups as we described.
5:38>> Very cool. And really, it's an adaptable
5:40shot line. It's not a repeatable shot
5:42line in a sense, right?
5:43>> Um, I think it's individual. That's well
5:45said. Yeah. It's probably uniquely to
5:47you a little bit. Sure. And I'm I'm
5:49fortunate, right? We're at a high level
5:51of the game where I don't have to
5:52necessarily teach you the most basic.
5:54And if it's pretty clean up top, then I
5:56just think to myself about like, how do
5:58I correct your flow into it?
6:01>> Very interesting. So getting into those
6:03kind of micro details is really what
6:06you're talking about, right? You don't
6:07have to do the macro. You're not
6:08starting from the beginning of the shot.
6:10They've already got a shot and then
6:12within that you're trying to refine it
6:13in some way or make it more efficient or
6:15more effective.
6:16>> Yeah. I like to introduce it to NBA
6:18players as I'm not changing your shot.
6:20I'm not changing anything other than
6:22accessing when you feel best about your
6:23shot. Everyone can relate to that
6:25concept that I described to you. You're
6:27flowing down the wing. All of a sudden,
6:28the ball flows to you. The shot goes up.
6:30You're almost like Steph Curry. You're
6:32turning around before it goes in.
6:33Everyone knows that feeling. How do we
6:35access that for five for five from
6:37mid-range? And not because I expect you
6:40to take that in the game, but because
6:42that is the physical T-ball batting
6:44practice experience of hitting home runs
6:46later.
6:47>> I love it. I love talking to people like
6:48you because you've had to learn how to
6:49phrase it in a way that doesn't make the
6:51athlete feel like they're doing
6:53something wrong. It's just that they can
6:55do something better potentially. So try
6:57it and see if it works, right?
6:59>> Yeah. Sure. Yeah.
7:00>> Yeah. It's a lot of fun to be able to
7:02kind of phrase things that way. For
7:04sure. So thinking about it, you may not
7:07know this, but Pete Krill used to say if
7:09you could shoot threes, you could shoot
7:10from anywhere.
7:12>> And to a certain extent, they shot
7:13layups and threes in practice because he
7:15felt that would take care of everything
7:17else. And I've heard you say everything
7:19is a catch and shoot three, even the
7:21mid-range. Can you explain that to us?
7:23>> Yes. There was one time I saw an
7:25interview with Steve Kerr and he talked
7:27about the year that they moved the NBA
7:29line in was one of the first years that
7:31he really shot it well. They moved the
7:32NBA line into 22 feet all around in the
7:35mid 90s and then they moved it back to
7:37239 and he talked about how later when
7:39they moved it back he continued to
7:41practice at the 22 foot range feeling
7:44like adrenaline would take over in the
7:46game. So there are situations where I'd
7:49like you to go through the physical flow
7:52of what it feels like and if you can go
7:55five for five from five spots. I know
7:57that's not the most creative player
7:59development design, but if you can do
8:00that, please go 25 or 25 cuz I've seen
8:02what that looks like. And if you're
8:04saying, "I'll do it later." No, do it
8:05now. And what is that like for you? And
8:08how does that physically feel for you?
8:09And can you access that so that we can
8:11go 22 out of 25 from five spots around
8:14the three? Cuz that's what really good
8:16shooters I've been around can do. So
8:18there is no later. There is the find it
8:20now and do it now. And they, in my
8:23opinion, they respond to that. But I
8:24also think there's, like I said,
8:26physical cues or warm-ups that create
8:28that.
8:28>> I love this. Love this conversation. And
8:30I understand it's not sexy to talk about
8:32doing repetitive shots from spots. But
8:34look, I'm with you. There's not one way.
8:36And what is the value of that for a
8:39player? Because I do feel there's a
8:41value for them, even though I know
8:42you're well versed in CLA and all the
8:44different things that you do.
8:45>> Comfort, consistency, repeatability,
8:48those things matter in any job, in any
8:50profession. even when you know that
8:53isn't exactly the realest rep. Like the
8:56players will tell you there's probably
8:58equivalents in other professions.
9:00Everyone needs it to an extent. It's not
9:02a waste of our time. In my opinion, it's
9:04two to three minutes of your time. What
9:06does it really take? And as long as
9:07there's a little bit of a system to it
9:09or a physical experience to it that's
9:11recreatable, I appreciate it to be
9:13honest.
9:13>> Me as well. And it's not the solution,
9:15it's part of the solution for sure. And
9:17and I experienced it all the time with
9:19young players is as much as I make it
9:21random and variable, sometimes I got to
9:23make it really block for them to remind
9:24them that wait, you can really shoot,
9:27it's just that sometimes when you make
9:28it so CLA based or random and variable,
9:31they're going to miss more. And that's
9:33hard sometimes for a player from a
9:34psychology perspective, I feel.
9:36>> Yeah. Very well said. So, when you're
9:39working with players to build their
9:41confidence in their shot, what are some
9:44of the other areas other than seeing the
9:46ball go in, which is again the cliche,
9:48what are some other ways that you can
9:49help a player understand that they're
9:50improving and that they should be
9:52confident in their shot?
9:53>> Good question. I think part of it is
9:56your the spacing of your offense as
9:57well, like where do you belong? Where
10:00will you be? And then are you in the
10:02right spot? And then from there, do you
10:05know when to go? If you get into the
10:07right spot, as simple as as it sounds,
10:09say you're playing from the corner, you
10:11have to literally scrape the sideline,
10:13sprint to the corner. When you get
10:14there, your feet are set, the ball flows
10:16to you. That was a no when to go moment.
10:18You should have shot that. And I can
10:20show you that on film. And that was the
10:21flow moment. That's our drill. Don't
10:23mess it up. But if you casually jog
10:25there, you're not ready for it. It So
10:28for me, like the know when to go moment
10:30is really important. So you can show
10:32that on film, you can create that in
10:34drills, and then you can create that
10:35environmentally. I think that's like the
10:37three layers to these are the spots or
10:39the environments where that's your
10:41moment, kiddo. Like when they see that
10:43and they get excited by it and they know
10:45what to do with it, they can critique
10:46themselves at times, too.
10:48>> Yeah, I love that. In a way, some of
10:49those things remove decision from a
10:52player and instill confidence in them to
10:54say, "This is your spot. This is your
10:56shot. Shoot this."
10:57>> Yeah, exactly that.
10:59>> So, your handto rim concept, can you
11:01explain that a little bit deeper for us?
11:03Yeah, I thought it was just a cue for
11:05players when they're finishing that
11:07creates full extension that creates
11:10creativity that if you're trying to get
11:12your hand to the rim and then obviously
11:13there's a defender there or there's
11:15another handto- rim option. There is
11:17hand to rim until you now have convinced
11:20the defense that you're ready to finish
11:22and now passes are available. For me
11:24even I think it's the full ex extension
11:26of when you touch the floor with it,
11:28you're hand to rim, you're all the way
11:30there. I think there's been other
11:31versions of it historically. I think
11:32it's just been the one that I've focused
11:34on latest. And I think there's like a
11:35stretch your arm, spread your fingers
11:37aspect to whatever queue you want, but
11:39handto rim is all-encompassing for me.
11:41>> It's a great one because it's an
11:42external cue in the sense that it just
11:44gives them a reference point in terms of
11:46that. I've said extend the ladder before
11:48as well in terms of that and just giving
11:50them a visual and a reference point
11:51outside their body so they're not so
11:53attuned to their body and thinking
11:56technique in terms of that because again
11:58ultimately it's an outcome that you're
12:00trying to achieve. And no, I was going
12:02to say Chris, it also focuses quite
12:04literally eyes on the rim. Like how
12:05often do we go to finish and it's like
12:07or like just go believe it, show it, and
12:10then pass late. We'll drill that. And
12:12that's really what you're trying to
12:13create is that comfort of that and then
12:16exit low and get as as far out of the
12:18way as you can.
12:19>> We actually with one of the programs,
12:21youth programs I worked with, we filmed
12:23from the baseline during a game. So,
12:24anytime someone went in for a layup, we
12:26filmed to to actually prove that point
12:29about how many times people take their
12:31eyes off the rim as they're shooting a
12:33layup. Correct.
12:34>> And it's fascinating. It it is a
12:35probably one of the most common reasons
12:37I feel why players miss layups at the
12:39youth level especially. So,
12:41>> you're given context to that, which is
12:43absolutely great. So, where does the
12:45mid-range fit into the game nowadays in
12:47your mind, whether it's player
12:48development or team development?
12:50>> Look, Max players make mid-range shots
12:53late game. mid-range might be what the
12:55game calls for. It is not something that
12:57is no longer part of our game. Those are
12:59just antiquated thoughts. Seth partner
13:02had the mid-range theory. Like in some
13:04ways, the mid-range is its is in its
13:07heyday in some ways that the right
13:09players are taking those. In my opinion,
13:12I think it's very valuable so that you
13:13have the adrenaline driven threes later
13:15in the game.
13:16>> Absolutely. a lot of different ways to
13:18be able to get there in terms of those
13:21things. But generally, again, at your
13:22level, you're just focused on the best
13:24player, shooting them. Are you working
13:26on them in your player development
13:28workouts?
13:29>> Yeah, absolutely. And like I said, like
13:30I have no problem with the five spot
13:32mid-range. I know that's like this
13:34hallmark of lack of creativity, but on
13:36the flip side, I think players want to
13:37do that. The players come into the gym.
13:39That's just my conversation piece. I
13:40haven't started my workout. So if a
13:42coach or someone else from afar is
13:44judging that as not valuable, the player
13:46is judging it as valuable to an extent.
13:48I do not think that's the end all beall.
13:50I understand how to create environmental
13:53changes from there so that the player is
13:55truly tested in things that he'd face in
13:56the game. But quite literally it's like
13:59touching your toes. Like you just got to
14:00do it before you start your yoga
14:02sometimes. Like it's not the actual
14:04practice. It is just what you're doing
14:06to get ready for practice. I loved
14:08learning so many of your phrasing and
14:10your terminology for some of these
14:12things. And another one was rim as
14:14protection. Talk to us about that since
14:15we're on finishing and we're talking
14:17about finishing.
14:18>> Yeah. So rim is protection is as simple
14:19as if you're into the deep paint, if
14:21you're playing in deep water and you're
14:22really kind of comfortable with using
14:24the other side of the rim or playing
14:26underneath the rim, things of that
14:28nature. I feel like those are the best
14:29passing angles that really open up.
14:31Cutters who follow the drive tend to
14:34touch the paint by the time you're
14:36airborne. Things of that nature. It's as
14:38simple as can't goend, can't stick your
14:39hand through the rim. If I put it on the
14:41other side of the rim and you're
14:42guarding me, then maybe just maybe I've
14:44used the rim as protection against your
14:46shot contest.
14:47>> I think it's pretty consistent. Like
14:48everyone from youth level on up trying
14:51to get their players better and more
14:52consistent and probably more creative at
14:54finishing at the So, can you share some
14:56of the different constraints that you
14:57use to be able to help develop finishing
14:59at the rim?
15:00>> There's a buildup of just onehanded,
15:03can't put a second hand on it. There's
15:06mild level of defense and then of course
15:08there's live defense. There's multiple
15:09defenders and then there's just absolute
15:11chaos, right? So there's three or four
15:13layers of all of that. We like all of
15:14it. And then of course there's like full
15:17speed out of breath. Can't ask NBA
15:19players to do this all the time. But
15:21when there's like we are running, we are
15:23sprinting, there's chaos, there's
15:25multiple defenders, we have all the
15:26bodies out there, that's the absolute
15:28best true rep for like an in-game
15:30finish.
15:30>> How are you creating the chaos? Is it
15:32multiple coaches on the floor or what
15:34creates the chaos in the end world?
15:36>> I'd love to. We're blessed by a lot of
15:38player development bodies. As the
15:39director of player development, one of
15:41the things that I did for a minute there
15:42was collaborate with Tan and JB and hire
15:44the best 24 year olds we could find and
15:47they've played all over the world. They
15:48played in the Ivy League. They've played
15:50in the Big 10. They're legit. They're
15:51great. They're young coaches who I love
15:54coaching coaches. And now these people
15:56are going to be on the G-League staff.
15:57They killed it on the summer league
15:58staff. Those are the guys that we're
16:00blessed with. The other version of that
16:02in some ways at any other level in my
16:04opinion is players. And I think there is
16:07a version of asking players like, "Hey
16:09man, like just 50% defense. Just be out
16:12there. Give them something to read. Like
16:13this is not about you versus him." And I
16:15think when you describe it as such, they
16:17get low-key competitive. And if you ask
16:19them to go 50%, they tend to turn it up
16:21to 75. Asking him to go straight up
16:23100%, you might get 50. It's like funny
16:25how players work. But I think if I were
16:28to be in another environment, and I will
16:29be this year, where there's less player
16:31development bodies around, I would use
16:33players in that in that situation as
16:35much as I possibly could and kind of ask
16:37them to half speed it. And they might
16:39joke, they might laugh, they might slap
16:41down on the ball, but it creates
16:42different environmental changes for the
16:43player.
16:44>> I love that example of guided defense.
16:46And again, really, you're just trying to
16:47create distracting information, visual
16:50stimuli for them, different things like
16:51that. So, it is fascinating that you
16:53tell them to go 100 and they'll go 50.
16:55But I totally understand what you're
16:56saying in that sense cuz when you tell
16:58them to go 50, you're removing ego from
17:00it at all and saying you're not really
17:02trying to stop them. You're just trying
17:03to get in their way. And that's such a
17:05great example with that coach. What's a
17:08drive line?
17:08>> As straight as possible. As straight as
17:10possible. So like whether that's driving
17:12from the corner, you're trying to
17:14obviously straight line it along the
17:15baseline. You're trying to get you're
17:16trying to get middle from those high
17:18quads. Just the concept of when I go
17:20straight, can I drive into the defender
17:22and therefore he's the first to give
17:24ground.
17:25>> Of course, we talk a lot and we see a
17:26lot of these advantage drills now,
17:28including from basketball immersion that
17:30we share these advantage starts that are
17:32there. And so the drive line and working
17:34on the drive line. Great. Talk to us a
17:36little bit more about leveraging an
17:38advantage. So once they have a drive
17:41line, one of the hardest things is to be
17:42able to maintain the drive line. and
17:44talk to us a little bit about some of
17:45the ways that you can create constraints
17:47or drills that help do that.
17:48>> Ooh, yeah. So, you need bodies to lean
17:50on people. You need certain angles. I
17:52don't mind scripting finishes at the
17:54start. I don't mind saying like
17:55essentially like we're trying to create
17:58an angle so that you feel comfortable
18:00using a bump euro and naming the the
18:04move, if you will, scripting the move.
18:06And then say you did three finishes. At
18:08some point, it's just like, all right,
18:09any of the three finishes with them
18:10leaning on you at various angles go. and
18:13they adapt quickly if you haven't given
18:15them five to seven finishes. If you give
18:17them just two or three and sometimes
18:18those might be as basic as like chin to
18:21rim, bump, euro. All right, come to a
18:23twoft stop. Those are your three
18:24options. Go. And then the creativity
18:26that they come with after that at our
18:28level is really impressive. And that's
18:30where I start to queue. Hand to rim.
18:31Why' you jump stop at two foot? You went
18:33to the rondo and now you're fading away.
18:35Like why didn't you extra step and get
18:37your hand to the rim? Those are the
18:39moments where I cue that. So you
18:41prescribe a pool of possible moves. Is
18:43that the idea? Or are you initially
18:45starting with, okay, let's repeat this
18:47one a few times, once you understand it,
18:49then this one, and then mix them.
18:50>> I do both.
18:51>> I do both. If you got a guy for a couple
18:53weeks, like, why not both? One day it's
18:55this. And remember when we prescripted
18:57it, now just do any of the three. Do the
19:00same three three times or do the the
19:03move you should have used last night.
19:04When you name the moves, you get to be
19:06able to be like back to what we said,
19:08Chris. It's like in the corner, you got
19:10to know when to go and when you were
19:11driving, your drive line wasn't
19:13straight. And now you should bump Euro.
19:15See the clip? Let's work on that today.
19:17And then I feel like they have they've
19:20stacked their understanding. And also
19:22they'll stack something else on top of
19:23that, such as now coach, can I go hand
19:26to rim on the other side with rim as
19:27protection? And you're like, oh my gosh,
19:29you're learning. Like that's that those
19:31are the moments, man. Those are the
19:32moments I live for.
19:33>> That's awesome. That's a such a great
19:35example. So you're giving them a menu of
19:37solutions and possible solutions. How do
19:39you then work that towards more
19:41individual law of biological
19:43individuality in the sense that certain
19:45players are going to prefer different
19:46ones over other players? How do you
19:48account for the individual differences?
19:50>> Relationships study. Yeah. Just
19:52continuing to know the player, knowing
19:54who you're speaking to. You just
19:55wouldn't ask Russell Westbrook to take a
19:57floater. You just, you know what I mean?
19:58Just there's certain things that Yeah.
20:00If you know the group and you know the
20:01guy, if it was an absolute stranger,
20:03it's very different than your team and
20:05your player and your guy you're spending
20:07so much time with.
20:08>> No, it's a great answer. At the end of
20:10the day, the player or the game or the
20:12practice will reveal what they prefer
20:14and what they like, especially if you
20:16give them, as I said, these
20:17possibilities rather than these must
20:19with it.
20:20>> You use the phrase break the nail. What
20:22do you mean by break the nail?
20:24>> Yeah. So I think that's like a drive
20:25from the high quad when there's someone
20:27on the ball and there's a nail defender
20:29and let's say you're trying to hit the
20:31other quad or the other wing. There is
20:33the drive kick aspect as like as soon as
20:35the defense converges you give it up
20:37early and then of course there's the
20:39break through or get over or do
20:42something to literally defeat the nail
20:44defender. I feel like in those
20:46situations when the ball handler drives
20:48it deep enough and say he's foul line
20:50extended or maybe at the dotted and then
20:52passes to the wing, it's a natural
20:54creation that he can exit low as low as
20:57possible to distort the shell of the
20:59defense. So you can help us reconcile
21:02this a little bit. This concept of break
21:03the nail talking about again like youth
21:06level high school coaches like you draw
21:08two, we want you to pass it and a high
21:10paint decision. when is the example of
21:12when they should try and break the nail,
21:14take a deeper split, whatever it may be
21:16in terms of that, how do we understand
21:18the differences largely based on the
21:20player, I imagine, but beyond that,
21:22>> yeah, I think when the defense is
21:24stagnant, it's much harder. When, let's
21:26say, you reverse it through the trailer,
21:28you're playing classic five out, maybe
21:30it's a zoom action or it's a corner DHO.
21:34Those pitch actions happen with so much
21:36pace where the big man tosses it more
21:39than DHO's into his belly. It's not EMTT
21:41Smith. You're tossing the ball. You're
21:44sprinting towards the nail. Everything's
21:46happening fast. You're passing, moving,
21:48and the defense takes a weave aspect. It
21:51doesn't necessarily happen on your
21:53average sideline pick and roll with the
21:55one on five on the side and then three
21:57on the other side of the floor.
21:59>> So, a moving versus a loaded kind of
22:01nail type of situation.
22:03>> Yeah. Awesome. Love that. Spacing of
22:05course. So, we mentioned high paint
22:06decisions, low paint decisions, whatever
22:08it is. What are you t talking about in
22:11terms of getting into space then getting
22:13out to space especially let's start with
22:15maybe I have a high kick out so I kick
22:17it out early where are we respacing
22:20>> so you kick it out early as in you've
22:22touched the paint
22:23>> you saw the nail yeah you drove you draw
22:25two high kick early kick so you haven't
22:27got into I think you call it the deep
22:29water yet you made an early pass is that
22:32is there maybe I should start from there
22:34is there a difference between that
22:35relocation and then getting deeper in a
22:37relocation
22:38Yeah. So, I feel if I drive the nail and
22:41I drive early and I bounce back to where
22:43I came from, I've left your defender and
22:46my defender in play for you, if I can
22:48somehow break the nail and break your
22:50defender or maybe turn his back or force
22:53a bit of a close out for you and
22:56continue to exit towards the opposite
22:58corner as low as possible, then I feel
23:00like the person who catches the ball has
23:03decision to go left or right in a lot of
23:05environments. the ones where you want to
23:08do the right thing. Players are good at
23:10following what coaches say. They say
23:12make the extra pass, draw two and kick.
23:14When you draw two and kick and you leave
23:16your defender and help, I feel like the
23:17defense is too stagnant. And as much as
23:19you're trying to do the right thing, we
23:21might be asking for the wrong thing.
23:22>> Awesome. What about the dunker spot and
23:25the spacing in the dunker spot?
23:26Obviously, that's become a little bit
23:27more relevant over the last number of
23:29years. Can you talk to us about that?
23:31When does a player go to the dunker spot
23:33and use that as a spacing spot if it's
23:36not designated as a matchup spot?
23:38>> Yeah, I tend to feel like if the floor
23:39is stagnant, I'd prefer if you're in the
23:41dunker to space to the corner. That's me
23:44philosophically in combination with
23:46three or four environments. That's not
23:47necessarily the Detroit Pistons way or
23:50what the coach always asks for. That's
23:52just my inclination or what I would do
23:54if I were stuck down there, if that
23:56makes sense. Mediocre player, but I
23:57don't function with my back to the
23:59basket. That's not always a comfortable
24:00environment. I think modern day
24:01basketball is everyone can drive in a
24:04straight line from the corner. So even
24:06if that's my five and you're guarding
24:08him like a non-shooter, we'll take two
24:10or three dribbles and start to go into
24:12one of our bump euros or things that I
24:14work with or we work on. And if it's a
24:16hand or rim finish, then we're okay. And
24:19positionless basketball is a version of
24:21when you get to that spot to finish, you
24:23also are capable of making the same
24:25passes as those guards. So, I tend to
24:28feel like I'd rather space you to the
24:30corner. Spacing in the dunker spot
24:32becomes relevant when the floor is
24:34moving when you've drive and you've
24:36driven and you've kicked. You can pause
24:39briefly on the baseline because when you
24:41do and you watch the floor set, trust
24:43me, your defender does too. And this and
24:45the shell is very distorted and it
24:47doesn't look like anything they drill.
24:49So, you may feel lost. It might not show
24:51up great on a whiteboard, but I promise
24:54in game those are moments where the
24:55defender relaxes, the court is different
24:58and gaps have been created.
24:59>> I'm curious at your level then are your
25:01spacing rules, your penetration reaction
25:03rules, are they something that you teach
25:06as a structure early, but then
25:08universally they're probably not always
25:11followed because the game doesn't make
25:13you follow them because there's other
25:15advantages to figure out or how are they
25:17taught at your level?
25:18>> Yeah, that's well said. I think you need
25:20to begin with a baseline of some cutting
25:22rules. Oklahoma City is one of the most
25:24excellent cutting teams. When I was in
25:26Phoenix, we were an excellent cutting
25:27team. Now we are in Detroit. And some of
25:29that is just in general, just go, man.
25:31Just go and figure out the chemistry
25:33with your group. No one will ever say,
25:35"Stop getting layups." So when it works,
25:37cutting is like the placebo effect of
25:39basketball. It's like something that is
25:41undeniably true only because you only
25:43throw it to the guy when he's about to
25:45score. So it's something we discount as
25:48analytically. of course you throw it to
25:50the cutter or it's just one of those
25:52things that even when you try to
25:53measure, it's hard to measure. But the
25:55more you do it, the more it works. So
25:57the less I teach it and the more I say
25:59get layups, it tends to work if they're
26:01sprinting from higher spacing. If
26:03they're sprinting from a quad, from a
26:05corner, from within our offense, from
26:07within what JB is asking, it tends to
26:10work and you never say stop.
26:11>> Love that. You referenced a number of
26:13environments you've been in. Obviously,
26:14you've evolved your philosophy over the
26:17years and you've messed around a lot
26:19with the CLA. So, maybe some coaches
26:21that are just figuring it out and
26:22getting into that environment a little
26:24bit. Can you share a little bit of your
26:26thoughts of how you decide what to teach
26:28explicitly, what to constrain or what
26:31allow players to discover? You said
26:34environmental, ecological, whatever it
26:36may be. So, how do you balance that and
26:38how do you figure out what to constrain
26:39versus what to allow versus what to
26:42obviously create as an explicit rule?
26:45>> Tough question. I don't know.
26:46>> That's why we're here, Steve. We're here
26:48to ask these tough questions. And
26:49>> I don't know if I have an answer. That's
26:51a tough question because I think you
26:52face the same environment, coach, where
26:53you put something together and
26:54occasionally you're like talking to your
26:56players and you're like, "Hey, man, was
26:57this clunky? Like, how do I fix this?
26:59Should I do a 7-second shot clock?
27:00Should I do a 5-second shot clock?" you
27:02just in conversation with the player
27:04sometimes it takes a couple reps to
27:06figure it out and I think that's the
27:07beauty of the NBA is in these morning
27:09workouts before a shoot around before a
27:11morning practice they don't want to go
27:14full speed at first totally understand
27:16it we're playing a lot of games we're
27:17doing a lot of things when they start to
27:19go half speed is when I'm like is this
27:22clunky should we fix like I said and
27:24then by the time you get it right
27:25they're going more or less full
27:27full-blown and we've got bodies and
27:29people out there is where I was like
27:30nice build them and we figured it out
27:32together,
27:32>> which is the fun part about coaching
27:34this way, right? There's an adaptability
27:36piece that is kind of fun and
27:37challenging for you as a coach, isn't
27:38it? To try and figure out what can make
27:40it better. Cuz sometimes a constraint
27:42simply doesn't achieve the goal that you
27:44think it's going to go. And especially
27:46at your level, I imagine some of the
27:48constraints that I've tried sometimes
27:49with some NBA coaches, they said, "Oh,
27:51that'd be too easy for a player." And
27:52that makes sense to me when they say
27:54that, like, "That's way too easy, so
27:55it's not challenging."
27:57>> Yes. I work with a guy named Will Jent.
27:58He's a really talented young guy and he
28:00gave me this one drill which basically
28:02twoon-one at the elbows with a coach in
28:04the middle and you toss it to an elbow
28:06and the guy has to use only his outside
28:09hand until he's ready to finish. So he
28:11can't put a second hand on it unless
28:13he's about to finish. So every catch,
28:15every pass, every dump off, every has to
28:17be one-handed. And I remember thinking
28:19like that doesn't totally apply to the
28:21game, but it does turn on your brain and
28:22it does create little spacing instances
28:24where twoon-one's all the time you have
28:26to be very clean with that. incredibly
28:28clean with maybe a defender on you and
28:30you have to toss it and the guy has to
28:31finish around contact and suddenly I saw
28:34the relevancy in the drill in a way that
28:35this really starts the group in a
28:37certain way and I feel like it's as
28:39quote unquote irrelevant as a threeman
28:41weave. However, guys like it, it turns
28:44on their brain and it's actually
28:45dexterity and skill-based. So, let's
28:47roll.
28:47>> So, getting comfortable with one hand
28:49type of stuff is in theory like an
28:52increase in skill too, isn't it? to be
28:54able to manipulate the game somehow a
28:57little bit faster because touching it
28:59with the other hand inevitably slows it
29:00down too.
29:02>> Yeah. So, I played for a high school
29:03coach who said, "Don't leave your feet
29:04to pass. No one-handed passes." He
29:06didn't nec He was like Bobby Knight
29:07style, like not necessarily a pick and
29:09roll guy and it was incredible.
29:10>> They're still all over the place.
29:11>> Yeah.
29:12>> Not just your coach.
29:13>> Yeah. It's incredible how much it's
29:15evolved. And I know that the helpside
29:16rules are very different at various
29:17levels. In the NBA, it's a little
29:19different. You can obviously euroep and
29:22continuations and so forth. I get the
29:24differences. However, I also felt like a
29:27little bit constrained as a player. And
29:28the more I started opening up the
29:30concept of I can do all these two ball
29:32drills, coach. Can I do this? And he'd
29:34be like, nope. So, but I think that's
29:36that's obviously like how a lot of Steve
29:37Nash and other point guards have just
29:39made their living.
29:40>> It's interesting again coaching so many
29:41diverse players that I get to coach. One
29:43of the things that I tell them is like
29:45literally like same idea this constraint
29:47you can only use one hand. And a lot of
29:49them like would inevitably come back and
29:51say, "My coach would never let me do
29:52this." And I'm like, "This is not about
29:54your coach right now. This is about you
29:56exploring your possibilities and you
29:57getting better." And that is a challenge
30:00constantly for players to be able to
30:02kind of reconcile sometimes what their
30:04coach allows versus what their team
30:06allows. And I'm imagining for the NBA,
30:09it's like ultimately you're not really
30:11stopping things because they didn't use
30:13a proper technique. Most of it relates
30:15to the decision they made with that
30:17technique. Is that a fair way to be able
30:19to look at it?
30:20>> Yes, that's really well said. Really
30:22well said. And sometimes like our drills
30:24are just yoga to weightlifting, right?
30:26Like they're not the same. I didn't say
30:28they were the same, but they're going to
30:29aid each other, right? So this drill and
30:31this one-handed concept that will be
30:33games where someone is on your arm and
30:35you have to win the arm fight. You're
30:36going to go ahead and scoop and you're
30:38going to hand a rim. We're going to say
30:39all the same things and it's going to
30:41look like this drill, but there's no way
30:43I could I could script that for you. But
30:45I'm glad it shows up once or twice a
30:47year. Fascinated. So, thinking about
30:49this and thinking about some of the
30:50players that you've coached through your
30:52time that are veterans that came up
30:54maybe very traditional in player
30:55development and then have shifted a
30:57little bit into CLA. Talk to us about
31:00some of the things that they've enjoyed
31:02and some of the things that they've
31:03struggled with in those pieces because I
31:05think this will help all coaches
31:06understand more this process that
31:08players go through.
31:10>> Yeah. So, what comes to mind, and I hope
31:12he doesn't mind me using his name, but
31:14Dennis Shruder comes to mind. And to me,
31:15I've always joked with him that he's the
31:17best point guard in the world cuz he's
31:19low-key like a pure point guard in the
31:21sense, and then he's obviously
31:22successful in world championship and
31:23Olympic settings and in the NBA and so
31:26forth. He's learned through a lot of
31:28unique environments and coaches and
31:30situations. And Darko Ryakovich and I
31:32paired up with him while in Oklahoma
31:34City and he would do things naturally
31:36that I'd name later. Like I think I
31:38might have gotten hand to rim or rim is
31:40protection from him if that makes sense.
31:43And then when I'd ask him like who
31:44taught him and he'd be like no one
31:46because my coaches were so traditional
31:48or I just had to because that's how you
31:51guarded me. And he [snorts] was
31:53explaining back to me a philosophy that
31:55you and I now own and hold and can can
31:57label and explain better. So he was a
32:00and I've had him twice. One time in
32:02Detroit and it was like 5 to seven years
32:04later. Our families had kids at the same
32:06time. like what an incredible
32:07experience. He was an absolute joy
32:08coaching him. So that that player comes
32:10to mind most.
32:11>> Yeah, it'd be fascinating definitely to
32:12ask those questions and I've asked some
32:14questions of NBA players before and it
32:16is amazing kind of like in a way and I
32:18totally get it that so much of what they
32:20do has become automatic at the point
32:22that you're dealing with them that they
32:24don't really remember or understand
32:26where some stuff evolved or came from
32:28which makes complete sense. So it's like
32:31hard to go back through it and say okay
32:32this is where this came but somewhere
32:35along the line line obviously Dennis got
32:38a ton of freedom
32:39>> to be himself and ultimately isn't that
32:42the superpower of kind of this approach
32:43is ultimately we want players to be
32:45themselves.
32:46>> Yeah really well said right like for the
32:48for the guy who's not a classically
32:50trained or form shooter but still a
32:53great shooter. Yeah, we'll cheer the
32:55results regardless. You mentioned like
32:57asking players for feedback in the
32:59player development pieces. Talk to us
33:01about that a little bit deeper. What are
33:03some other ways that you get their
33:04feedback to ensure that they're feeling
33:06comfortable and confident in what you're
33:07doing is helping them?
33:09>> I'm not nearly as capable as I used to
33:10be, Chris, but I still like to guard a
33:12little bit. I really used to like to
33:13coach within my proximity. I had a
33:15unique experience where I was a college
33:18coach for seven years and you could kind
33:19of do whatever you wanted whenever. And
33:21then when I came into the NBA, you had
33:22to coach within your proximity, within
33:24whispering, within talking to people.
33:26And some of that was just, if you don't
33:28mind me saying, was just talking
33:29and just being like, "I'm in shape. Are
33:31you ready? It's the morning. Let's
33:32roll." Like all that jokey stuff. And I
33:35think they got a kick out of I got into
33:36League when I was 30. So I think they
33:38got a kick out of I was low-key older
33:40and I had kids and I'm ready to roll in
33:42the morning. And that stuff was fun. I
33:44had some some names you've heard of and
33:46Russell Westbrook was crazy energetic.
33:48Victor Oladipo sort of turned his career
33:49around in Oklahoma City and became an
33:51all-star. What an incredible
33:53environment. And then no better player
33:54development teachers than Darko
33:56Rayakovich, Billy Donovan, Mark Dagnal.
33:58That was a lot of fun in that
34:00experience. That set the groundwork. So
34:02when I got into Phoenix and resources
34:03were mildly different and we were a
34:06little further along as an NBA Finals
34:07team in that situation. We also didn't
34:09have a G-League team. So therefore, in
34:11my opinion, we had the highest paid
34:12two-way players in the NBA, or excuse
34:15me, the lowest paid roster of players in
34:17the NBA, I should say. And those guys
34:20were incredibly adaptable and ready to
34:22contribute. And we used everyone cuz it
34:24was a co year. His Wayne Wright has
34:26turned his career into something where
34:28he's a Euro League star. These are my
34:29pride moments. So when you come to the
34:31Detroit Pistons and they ask you to
34:33create an academy setting and coach all
34:36these coaches and things, it just was
34:38like all those experiences stacking upon
34:40each other that that's allowed us the
34:42chance to try to do something special
34:44here.
34:44>> I love that. And obviously your passion
34:46for coaching the coaches is awesome as
34:48well. Something that we share. Talk to
34:50us about this. You said academy model.
34:52What does that mean?
34:54>> Our G-League team is in-house and we
34:57share an environment that matters. Also,
34:59we're an ownership group that has a WNBA
35:01coming down the pipeline. These are
35:02exciting things. It's going to be all
35:04located within the same mere city
35:06blocks, and I'm not sure another
35:07ownership group can match that
35:09currently. So, whatever that takes on
35:11the highest levels, not taking any
35:12credit, I promise you, but whatever that
35:14takes on the highest level to design, I
35:16think it's an academy style setting for
35:18guys who are like 19 years old and
35:20you're carrying them upwards to 38 and
35:2240 nowadays. It's incredible. Yeah, you
35:24hear the academy model mainly in Europe
35:26in terms of especially referencing
35:28soccer football more than anything. So,
35:30it's just fascinating to hear you use
35:31that word and really what you're talking
35:33about there's an education piece for all
35:35coaches to be able to develop in these
35:38ways specifically CLA way or in other
35:42ways as well. When I talked about
35:44coaching coaches, the thing I first
35:45began with was like, what is our settled
35:47terminology? And there's what JB
35:49establishes of what he calls and then
35:51his coverages and so forth and what he
35:53calls his plays. And then there's an
35:54established terminology where you check
35:56with your head coaches such as, can I
35:58use the phrase break the nail? Does that
35:59make some sense to you? If I say it a
36:01lot around you, would you ever squash
36:02it? Is it okay? And if JB were on the
36:06call right now, I don't know if he knows
36:07that term, but I know our players do,
36:09and I know we all benefit from it. And
36:10he has allowed so much freedom to the
36:13entire staff to do that. There are
36:14people who are going to carry that forth
36:16this year. I'll do it from the from the
36:18G-League setting this year. And I think
36:20I think that's because we all share
36:23staff meetings and environments as I
36:25described and quite literally like a
36:27physical hallway.
36:28>> It's fascinating. I had a chance to
36:30interview JB with with an NBA role that
36:32I had at Allstar this year and I didn't
36:35know him. I mean, I've certainly heard
36:37so many good things about him and I've
36:38heard a lot about terminology from him,
36:40but when I started talking about CLA, I
36:43wasn't sure if he was wellversed in it.
36:46And he absolutely blew me away with his
36:49knowledge of it. And it made sense
36:51because later I connected dots with the
36:53different people that have been around
36:54him in his time. And it's a really cool
36:57kind of thing to be able to see how all
36:59coaches have evolved in some way with
37:01again just continuing to evolve and grow
37:03the game. What are some of the areas
37:05that have helped you do that the most?
37:08Where have some of the areas that you've
37:09investigated, even maybe beyond
37:11basketball, that have helped you grow as
37:13a coach?
37:14>> Really good question. I'm a voracious
37:15reader. I'm like unabashedly a nerd.
37:18It's okay. I love stuff outside of the
37:19game. Yeah, podcasting, writing,
37:22listening, learning. I'm all about it in
37:24a lot of ways. Big time into meditation.
37:26Those things have all helped me. you try
37:28to carry it into player relations a
37:30little bit, but I think just even
37:31expressing an interest in something
37:33outside the game, even if they don't
37:35know what it is or what it's all about,
37:37you just show them that diversity and
37:38you ask them what else they're into and
37:40they open up from there. You you
37:42referenced the playing off two feet
37:44thing from your old coach and I know
37:46there's tons of coaches now that feel
37:47like Jaylen Brunson justifies playing
37:49off of two feet all the time, but of
37:51course he's one of the most creative
37:52players in the world and we could never
37:54say he plays off two feet or one foot or
37:56anything like that. Plays off all feet.
37:58But going a little bit deeper, I know
38:00one of the things that you value is
38:03getting airborne. So talk to us about
38:05that because this old cliche about don't
38:08leave your feet without a decision. I
38:10don't know if that applies anymore. So,
38:12I'm curious your thoughts.
38:14>> Yeah, the clearest one, the clearest
38:15example to me is a slot drive where you
38:17go airborne. So, maybe you're by your
38:19guy and there's a low man who helps. So,
38:21it creates a twoon-one on the weak side
38:23and you go airborne to decide whether to
38:25throw to the corner or the other high
38:26quad. And I feel like in that decision,
38:29you're literally airborne, your eyes are
38:31on the rim, you might be decoying the
38:33defense by peeking at one side and
38:35throwing to the other. I feel like
38:36that's something we should drill over
38:38and over whether it's scripted and say
38:40do this or it's read this. I think
38:43that's something that shows up in the
38:44game an awful lot nowadays.
38:46>> I've seen it a few times from some
38:47different NBA coaches as well which I've
38:49adapted is that concept of like going
38:52one dribble into that airborne. So we're
38:54not spending all the time on all the
38:56other stuff. They're just going that one
38:58dribble into airborne and it starts live
39:00from there. I'm not sure if you use
39:01stuff like that, but I'm just sharing
39:02that with coaches because it's a a great
39:04way to be able to get players more
39:06adaptable in those situations.
39:08>> Yeah. So, sometimes occasionally I
39:10simply roll the ball out and the way
39:11you're able to take that first bounce,
39:13you have your gather step, you have all
39:15kinds of extras and get airborne and
39:18just the amount of like you some of
39:19these athletes can cover 25 ft in that
39:22spacing, you know what I mean? It's
39:23absolutely incredible. So, reminding
39:25them of that, making them comfortable
39:26with that, making them alert that's
39:28available to them. And then the next
39:30read on the next layer is like maybe a
39:32second dribble after that because you
39:34might want to come to Jaylen Brunson's
39:35two feet because that is within your
39:37game because you are capable. But
39:39usually it might be because you might
39:41have gotten to the other side of the rim
39:43like a Steve Nash underneath. You're
39:45doing the lacrosse play behind the
39:46basket type situation. Like I'm already
39:49like my mind is going on the how else do
39:51we drill this and layer these on top of
39:53each other.
39:54>> I love that. That's what the fun of this
39:55is. I referenced that before is like
39:57trying to figure out how to make it
39:59challenging but also representative of
40:01the game situation and then when they
40:03leave their feet what you'll have some
40:05coaches say is helpside defenders in
40:07different locations. Are they sometimes
40:09stationary? Are they able to move? Are
40:11there different constraints that you
40:13give them in terms of understanding how
40:15to place kind of optimal demands on the
40:17player?
40:17>> Yeah. Yeah. Said I think we sum it up at
40:20some point by just telling the guy who's
40:21got a good rim feel like mix it up. And
40:24I I don't know if that's the perfect
40:25answer, but when they do understand what
40:27you're asking, it does create all the
40:28reads you're looking for.
40:30>> Yeah. And with those coaches, obviously
40:31they're educated about constraints and
40:33that approach, but generally like if we
40:36want to shape offense, we constrain the
40:37defense and then the offense doesn't
40:40know and they have to figure it out type
40:41of thing. What are some different
40:42constraints because I don't know if we
40:44talk about this enough in this whole
40:45scope. What are some different
40:46constraints we can give defenders that
40:48can help shape offense?
40:50>> My favorite one is just I'm going to
40:51fail you. Like how about that? Let's
40:53start.
40:54>> Yeah. My favorite one is like I'm gonna
40:56foul you. Like I'm a hack. I can't keep
40:57up with you. So this is how it's gonna
40:58go. And I think
41:00>> play through it and figure it out.
41:02>> Correct. Yeah.
41:03>> Correct. Yeah. Win the arm fight, get to
41:05the free throw line. I learned a lot
41:06from SGA about that stuff. Like that was
41:08obviously a design science and some of
41:10that came from Dennis Shruder and it
41:12overlapped at the same time. A year
41:14later it was Chris Paul and now if Kade
41:16Cunningham ever benefits because I've
41:18coached other coaches in that, like
41:20that's like my career aspiration. Like
41:21that's really what it's about. It
41:23doesn't have to be me and I take no
41:24credit. But stack it all together.
41:26>> It also kind of creates because I mean
41:28there's no way you can represent an NBA
41:30defender as you referenced at this
41:31point. Correct. So it does reference the
41:33fact that the way I can make it harder
41:35is you're going to get fouled.
41:36>> Correct. Yeah. I think that's the safest
41:38one, the easiest one. Obviously there's
41:39coverage solutions. There's there are
41:41just various coverages you might quickly
41:43huddle. I do also occasionally when the
41:46garden the big don't know what the other
41:47coverage is going to be. Occasionally I
41:50tell them like big do whatever you want
41:52guard you don't get a call and then I'll
41:54tell the screener set it either side and
41:56that's like the truest most random high
41:58pick and roll situation and out of that
42:00you create a lot of messy stuff that
42:03isn't a perfect rep of your defense so
42:05maybe not asking your players to quote
42:07unquote mess up your defense like that
42:09but asking the coaches too creates the
42:11read and
42:12>> I mean that's the advantage of having
42:13your coaches because they don't have to
42:14actually play your defense in a game but
42:16that's an awesome one that's a really
42:18curious one Just thinking about that a
42:20little bit deeper and that does create
42:22such variability for the player
42:24defending the ball, doesn't it? In terms
42:26of they got to figure it out on the fly
42:27and they could do the wrong thing quite
42:29often. And you referenced this like
42:31learning from Schroeder a little bit
42:33like it is amazing how players do reveal
42:36things to us that maybe we haven't
42:37thought about until they actually do it.
42:39And you kind of have a lab with your
42:41coaches to be able to do that as well a
42:43little bit, right?
42:44>> Yeah. Yeah. Really well said. I learned
42:46so much from just observing these guys.
42:48And a younger me might have been a
42:50little insecure with how quiet I am in
42:52the gym at times. Like there's there's a
42:54lot of moments where I'm really super
42:56excited to see four courts going and
42:58then hop into rebound. And a younger me
43:01might have been like, I'm not running
43:02things. I'm not out there. No one sees
43:04me. I think it's really good when you've
43:06enacted like 10, 12 people because we
43:09have those resources. So scale it down
43:11to whatever it might be. Even if it's
43:13two hoops and you stand in the middle
43:15and you've got players out there as
43:17well, when the environment is really
43:19functioning and humming and sometimes
43:21you might throw music on and do other
43:23things to continue to mess with the
43:24environment or have it feel good, but
43:26when not a lot is being said and
43:29everything is just like in action. Those
43:31are like the the real like moments where
43:32like this we're hitting, man. This is
43:34good.
43:34>> I'm glad you said that. That is one of
43:36the challenges in mentoring so many
43:38coaches in this approach that they feel
43:40like they're not coaching. And I remind
43:42them that you actually did all the hard
43:44work by creating the environment in the
43:46first place. But talk to us about maybe
43:48some of the other things that kind of
43:50have you've grown in this approach over
43:52the years that maybe at first were a
43:53little uncomfortable like that and maybe
43:56are there some other things that can
43:58help coaches understand?
43:59>> Yeah. So my first year in Tulsa, I
44:01worked for Darko Rayakovich, who's the
44:03head coach of Toronto now. And he was
44:05pretty classically trained by European
44:07coaches and he's got that Eastern
44:09European honesty, man. And he hit me a
44:12couple times early. Like the drill
44:13design, it was off. You didn't think
44:15about reps. Too many guys are standing.
44:18Whatever the critique was, he was very
44:20harsh and in a great way. And it changed
44:22my entire career in some ways because
44:24there's a medical component. There's, as
44:27they say, like a load component to what
44:30we're doing. There's all kinds of things
44:32to think about. And taking all things
44:34into consideration and feeling like
44:36you're achieving a lot at once was when
44:38I was like two or three cycles or
44:40seasons into the NBA being like, I think
44:42I'm hitting on all of what everyone's
44:44asking now and my players are getting
44:46better. Those were the moments where I
44:48was like, all right, this is really is
44:49really starting to stick.
44:51>> Steve, this is awesome. I've really
44:52enjoyed this and we can geek out. We're
44:54both geeks on this stuff, but man, you
44:56you reference this to me offline, but
44:58you've been a part of every place you've
45:00been, the coaching staff has been coach
45:02of the year, and you've got a chance to
45:03coach in all-star games. Talk to us
45:06about that experience of being around
45:08elite staffs and then getting this
45:09intimate moment around some of these
45:11elite players where when you're just
45:13competing against them, you might not
45:14get to observe them in the same way.
45:16>> Yeah. 20 had an opportunity to do it in
45:19Phoenix, which was the 75th anniversary
45:21of the NBA. That was an absolutely
45:23incredible who's who of the legends of
45:26the game who were just in the
45:27environment in the building. They still
45:29were doing the team LeBron, team KD,
45:31pick your own team type situation. And
45:34we coached team LeBron in Cleveland with
45:37Luca and Jokic and all kinds of guys on
45:39the team. And that was absolutely the
45:41most humbling experience to be able to
45:43observe them because obviously you're
45:44not coaching very hard in that
45:45environment, but you're observing their
45:47their habits and their experiences and
45:48the way they carry themselves. And one
45:51of the most fulfilling moments of my
45:53career too was to observe Chris Paul
45:56drawing an atto for the rest of his
45:57teammates. And to see just like the rest
46:00of us, he tends to at some time. And he
46:03did an incredible job. But I saw the
46:05nerves in him too as he looked around
46:07and saw other Hall of Famers just like
46:09himself. And I thought to myself, I'm
46:11gonna have a little bit of extra
46:12confidence when I try to coach Chris
46:13because these moments are stressinducing
46:15and he's just like me. And that was
46:18incredibly fortifying. It's okay to be
46:20vulnerable and keep trying. And to be
46:23able to do it four years later in 2026
46:25for Detroit. Again, another humbling
46:27experience in the city of Los Angeles
46:30with all those eyes with a whole new
46:32generation of guys there with a couple
46:33first time allstars that you helped
46:35build to that point. Absolutely all
46:38inspiring. It was incredible.
46:39>> Ah, it's a great story and just shows
46:40you that these guys are humans, right?
46:43They're humans. They have the same
46:45emotions we go through, the ups and
46:46downs, the everything that goes with it.
46:48And that's just tremendous to be able to
46:50think about that in that way.
46:52>> Yeah.
46:53>> So, you've been a head coach in summer
46:55league, you're going to be a head coach
46:56in the G- League. The natural
46:58progression then is to potentially be a
47:00head coach at the NBA level. Talk to us
47:02about that career progression for you to
47:04get to this point where again, you're
47:06thinking about it. Whether it happens or
47:08not, it's a possibility. That's pretty
47:10cool.
47:10>> Yeah. Thank you, Chris. I just want to
47:12stay in it, man. I just want to stay in
47:13it and stack years, right? There's
47:15there's a lot of people who ask how many
47:16years you've been in it. I'm not sure
47:17anyone ever really asks, "Were you more
47:19fulfilled in year three than year 7
47:21versus year 10." That's your own story
47:23line. The real story line is I'm 14
47:26years in with three teams and someone's
47:28given me an opportunity to be a head
47:29coach. Whether it's for 50 games this
47:32year or it's 100 games or it's 250 games
47:34like someone like Mark Dagnald who's
47:36turned it into being an NBA head coach.
47:38I've observed all of it. I don't know
47:40what's next for me. I'm super grateful
47:42that no matter what, left, up or down,
47:44coming from a head coaching seed, even
47:46if that's being a bigger fish in a
47:47smaller pond, what's next for me is
47:49really exciting and I'm eternally
47:50grateful.
47:51>> It's so cool to think that when I met
47:53you, Mark was the G-League head coach
47:56>> and I got to spend some time watching
47:57him run practice and it's just an
48:00amazing how kind of the career
48:02trajectories and you just never know.
48:04And I love how you said it, just stack
48:05yours, stay in it, and keep going. And
48:07we can't wait to watch your team play
48:09this year. We can say that now. And what
48:11an incredible experience to have you
48:13share the game with us. Thanks so much,
48:14Steve.
48:15>> And Chris, I need to thank you in
48:16reverse, man. I'm a big- time listener,
48:17long time long time admirer, man. You've
48:19done an incredible job. I obviously knew
48:21you from afar when you visited Oklahoma
48:23City. So, thank you for the opportunity.
48:24It's really cool.
48:25>> Appreciate it. Thank you.

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