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Steve Case on "The Rise of the Rest", America's economic resiliency & more | E1601 — Transcript

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0:50all right everybody
0:51my guy Steve case is back on the program
0:54he's got a new book rise of the rest you
0:57know he found it and he's the CEO of AOL
1:00change the name from quantum computer
1:02services back in the day America online
1:05and at the peak
1:0732 million paid subscribers 30 bucks a
1:11month was that was that the peak if I
1:13remember correctly Steve something like
1:15that I think it was 20 something bucks a
1:17month but maybe maybe we raised it on
1:19your account to 30. yeah but I mean just
1:22think about that we talk about
1:23subscription businesses like Netflix
1:24today
1:26we talk about Spotify this was
1:29unprecedented in the world for 30
1:31million people and and the company was
1:33throwing off billions of dollars a
1:35quarter
1:36in Revenue but more importantly just
1:38making a massive cultural impact
1:41in in getting people online and
1:43introducing them to
1:44the modern web and the internet looking
1:47back on it what what do you think was
1:50the key to why AOL
1:53captured the market you know just as a
1:55Founder like what were the two or three
1:56things you did so well well it uh a
1:59bunch of things well we started in 1985
2:01uh only three percent of people were
2:04online and those three percent were
2:05online on average of one hour a week so
2:07it's pretty early days and it took us a
2:10decade really to finally break through
2:13most people were kind of skeptical that
2:15average people would ever have an
2:16interest in getting on the Internet
2:17seems crazy now but that was the view
2:19then uh and I think our focus in terms
2:21of your question was we wanted to make
2:23it really easy to use really useful
2:25really fun and really affordable and
2:28that was sort of the North Star that
2:31guided all our our efforts around
2:32software design subscription pricing our
2:35marketing efforts how do we make the
2:37Internet available to everybody
2:39but the first decade was a slog
2:43it was there a few times we had to go
2:45through layoffs and really hard to raise
2:47money our first round of venture capital
2:49we raised one million dollars
2:51yeah it was you know hard to get people
2:53to believe in the idea of the Internet
2:55it's really hard to get people to
2:57believe in our team uh and and that we'd
3:00actually have a shot
3:02um so it was like many entrepreneurial
3:03Journeys a a struggle and also a little
3:06bit more of a struggle because we were
3:08starting uh AOL in in Northern Virginia
3:11kind of outside of Washington DC there's
3:13really no Venture Capital there uh at
3:16the time there was most people were
3:17reluctant to leave a big company what
3:19seemed like a safe job to go to a little
3:21company that seemed like a risky job uh
3:24hard to get people to pay attention and
3:26I think that helped inform some of my
3:28thinking and give me a little bit more
3:30probably empathy for the entrepreneurs
3:32all around the country I think that in
3:34part led to the effort around rise the
3:37rest and trying to back entrepreneurs
3:38everywhere yeah I mean this actually is
3:40the perfect segue because you you live
3:42this you were not in Silicon Valley
3:44where money flowed much Freer and
3:48man at that time it was just a different
3:50world
3:52um in terms of the ability to to raise
3:54capital or convince people to come to a
3:56startup today kind of a lot of young
3:57people are like well that's my default I
3:59want to go to a startup I want I want to
4:01start a company
4:02you start to fund I guess after the big
4:05AOL Time Warner merger you've talked
4:07about that for a decade it's got to be a
4:09little Annoying to recap that every time
4:10you get an interview uh so we would do
4:12that here uh and we've been over it
4:15before
4:15but that was the biggest M A actually is
4:18the Twitter purchase
4:20a bigger no no it was 50 right yeah no
4:24it was 350. 350 billion still I think
4:28it's still the largest merger in history
4:29yeah I think I just briefly I don't like
4:32to really dwell on it but I think that
4:33it's a reminder to thank entrepreneurs
4:36out there that you know kind of there's
4:37a Thomas Edison quote I love Vision
4:39Without execution is hallucination yes
4:42idea of those coming together leading in
4:44a company a time we had half all the
4:46internet traffic United States Time
4:47Warner was the leading cable company
4:49with Broadband I had all these Brands
4:51like HBO and CNN and Warner Brothers and
4:54Warner Music and Time Magazine and so
4:56forth you know it should have been the
4:58perfect company to lead into the in the
5:00future of this digital convergence that
5:03was starting to happen
5:04but just couldn't get the right people
5:06focused and the right priority so
5:08ultimately it came down to execution
5:09which as you know is at the core what
5:12what separates the winners and losers in
5:14the world of innovation and
5:15Entrepreneurship so in retrospect there
5:17was a big big disappointment but I did I
5:19think learned some things that hopefully
5:21I've been able to apply to some of some
5:22of the things since
5:24you look at it the modern day Disney
5:26Corporation
5:28and what Amazon is doing with Amazon
5:30Prime what Google is doing with YouTube
5:33that Playbook was eventually figured out
5:36I think the problem was you had this
5:38incredibly Innovative team at AOL who
5:40Moved quickly and then you had a media
5:42business that just wasn't ready to move
5:44quick they were two different Paces you
5:47had people jogging and then you had
5:49sprinters and sprinters cannot
5:52you know hang with a bunch of people who
5:54are just jogging around a track at a
5:56leisurely Pace how much of it was Sarah
5:58I think that's fair and some you know
5:59some of it was a different teams
6:01different you know different cultures I
6:03remember being in a board meeting uh
6:05right after we merged so it wouldn't
6:06would have been over 20 years ago and
6:09realizing that some people in the room
6:10were were speaking one language other
6:12people were speaking in other languages
6:14there is this Dynamic that you just
6:16described between the attackers and the
6:18Defenders and entrepreneurs tend to be
6:20more in that attacker or what's possible
6:22mode and Defenders more on the protect
6:25what's there kind of defend the turf
6:27mode so a lot of factors there and
6:29certainly some of the timing and retro
6:30retrospect was not helpful because the
6:32merger happened just was the whole.com
6:35kind of crash happen so a bunch of
6:37different different factors but live and
6:39learn and keep moving forward yeah I
6:41mean I one of the interesting things
6:43there and then let's get on to the book
6:44and your experience investing in the
6:46middle of the country and everywhere
6:47outside of the major cities if you think
6:49about these subscription businesses and
6:51AOL subscription
6:53ostensibly people were paying the
6:54subscription to to hear the the modem
6:57squeal and connect
6:59but if you were to ask them why they
7:01were doing that it was to get content
7:03and community on the other side and that
7:05really has become why people subscribe
7:07to you know all these other services so
7:10the it just sometimes being early is an
7:12asset I guess and sometimes being early
7:14makes it impossible and that's part of
7:17the art of being an entrepreneur yeah
7:19yeah absolutely there's a an arc to
7:21these things and you have to keep kind
7:23of leaning in the future and we did that
7:24well for a while but then kind of lost
7:26our way and that created the opening for
7:28others to to fill that vacuum and that
7:31is sort of the entrepreneurial story
7:33all right listen the book's great uh and
7:35the book is based on you starting the
7:37rise of the rest Venture Capital firm
7:38getting a bus and then deciding uh you
7:42would look at all the entrepreneurial
7:43communities or places with
7:46entrepreneurial activity I think that
7:48didn't have entrepreneurial communities
7:49might be the the better way to say it
7:51and just go visit them and you came up
7:55with a Playbook hey we'll go to this
7:56place we'll have a nice breakfast at an
7:57iconic location and we'll invite the
7:59CEOs we'll invite if there's any
8:01investors
8:02and we'll do a little tour of all the
8:05startups there and just see what happens
8:07and you've been doing this now I think
8:09for close to a decade huh yeah
8:12when you go to the when you did this
8:14tour
8:15and then the book outlines a lot of
8:17these visits and what it takes to build
8:19a community outside of Silicon Valley
8:21which was you know 80 90 and if you put
8:24Boston and New York together that was 90
8:27of venture capital you did this pre and
8:29post pandemic and I think that's really
8:32what makes the book fascinating is that
8:33you were grinding and grinding trying to
8:35make this point and then the pandemic
8:37happened so maybe talk to uh the
8:39audience here about what you learned
8:41pre-pandemic and then what the pandemic
8:43did to this concept of other cities
8:45having venture capital and Tech hubs and
8:49Excellence no exactly the pandemic has
8:51been a Tipping Point so it's been tragic
8:54in a lot of respect but if you're
8:55looking for a silver lining I think the
8:57idea of the rise of the rest is really
8:59accelerated because of some of the the
9:01Dynamics including some dispersion of
9:04talent as some people decided to move
9:05someplace else and some dispersion of
9:07capital as Coastal investors started
9:10using Zoom to invest in in other places
9:12that's been helpful a little bit of
9:13backstory bridging to what we're talking
9:15about with the able Time Warner merger
9:17when I propose that that deal
9:19I as part of that agreed to step aside
9:21as CEO so when the companies came
9:23together I was I no longer ran AOL or
9:26any of the other businesses and said I
9:28was chairman for a couple years and then
9:30decided it's time to move on and started
9:33Revolution as an investment firm that
9:35initially was just investing my capital
9:37and we backed a number of of companies
9:40including one of the early you know kind
9:41of uh sharing economy companies Zipcar
9:44and exclusive Resorts a bunch of
9:46companies and so this Resorts was kind
9:48of like Airbnb right like you you bought
9:50into yeah yeah bought into a portfolio
9:53of homes and and we still have that
9:55business is doing is doing quite well
9:56and then about
9:58a little over 10 years ago decided to do
10:00two things one was to institutionalize
10:03Revolution so we did start accessing
10:05outside Capital uh as well a couple
10:07billion dollars of other uh
10:09institutional capital and we have the
10:12revolution growth fund that's invested
10:13in companies like DraftKings and clear
10:16and sweet green and big Commerce and
10:18many others they also have a revolution
10:19Ventures fund investment policy genius
10:22and bright Sellers and a number of other
10:23companies and then more recently they
10:25did a courier question we launched the
10:27rise the rest seed fund which is
10:29explicitly focused on place and so it
10:31really is investing outside of you know
10:34the San Francisco area outside of New
10:36York City outside of Boston which as you
10:38said is where you know there's not much
10:40Venture Capital we said let's go find
10:41some of the great entrepreneurial
10:43buildings some of the companies of the
10:44future and places that don't really get
10:45a lot of attention don't get a lot of
10:47venture capital
10:48and we we launched that in partnership
10:50with you know several dozen prominent
10:53entrepreneurs people like Jeff Bezos and
10:55Howard Schultz and Venture investors
10:57like Jim Breyer and John door and uh
11:00hedge fund people like Ray dalio private
11:02Equity people like Henry kravis you know
11:04Sarah Blakely in Atlanta a bunch of
11:06bunch of people that it really all
11:08helped join with us to to back these
11:10entrepreneurs and so far over the last
11:11five six years we've made 200
11:13investments in a hundred different you
11:15know cities and it's remarkable what's
11:18happening in all these cities which
11:19ultimately why I decided to write the
11:21book after spending a better part of the
11:23decade travel in the country sometimes
11:25on bus sometimes for other reasons it's
11:28remarkable what's what's building in
11:30these cities but most of the attention
11:31and most of the capital still goes to
11:33places like you know Silicon Valley or a
11:35few others and we think over the next
11:37decade there'll be a few dozen cities
11:39that really surprise people in terms of
11:41what's happening with startups
11:45listen Founders very important if you're
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12:47let's just be clear here if you're not
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13:14sock tuned now and of course the
13:15pandemic happened events work from home
13:17goes from being for weird people and
13:20face it strange companies peculiar
13:22companies but you know odd Founders who
13:24say like I'm going to let people work
13:25from home
13:27and maybe it's 10 or less than the tech
13:29market and then it becomes the dominant
13:32modality and now hybrid seems to be you
13:36know I don't know maybe half of the
13:37modality uh or maybe it'll be a third
13:39I'm not sure where you think this will
13:40wind up but of course Venture capitals
13:43then since we couldn't meet with people
13:44where we started placing bets over Zoom
13:46and what we found was if everybody gets
13:49a beautiful setup like you have there we
13:51went from people using I don't know
13:53Skype and things that didn't work to all
13:54of a sudden zoom and other pieces of
13:56software working perfectly perfect
13:58cameras perfect audio
14:00and the society figured out a way to
14:02make it work people are happier you
14:05recapture two hours of commuting
14:07three hours of commuting a day it turns
14:10out people are happier and more
14:11productive do you believe
14:14because let's face it you're old school
14:16man you you built these companies in
14:18person and you know in in the whole
14:19culture in the 90s was hey get your ass
14:21in the office and we judge companies by
14:23how many cars were in the parking lot
14:24after six o'clock
14:26do you buy into this work from home
14:27stuff do you think great companies can
14:29actually be built work from home or do
14:31you think you need to have hybrid at a
14:32minimum or do you think the winning
14:33companies will be where people go to an
14:35office
14:37we've already seen that with even with
14:39our portfolio there's some that are
14:41remote only companies that were designed
14:43from the get-go to be fully remote uh
14:46and everything they've designed in terms
14:47of the infrastructure and communication
14:49Technologies as well as doing some
14:52physical you know get-togethers off
14:54sites things like that are designed
14:55around that they're definitely some
14:56companies that are fully back in the
14:58office that actually tends to happen
15:00more in some of these you know Rising
15:02cities I was in Fayetteville Arkansas
15:04last week the other companies would be
15:06back there acreage Trader has 150
15:07employees and they're basically in the
15:09office all the time but as you say most
15:11companies are somewhere in the middle
15:13some version of hybrid and they're still
15:15debating exactly how to make that work
15:16three days in two days out you know
15:18which days do people come in which time
15:20do when make sure teams are in on the
15:22same days uh things like that I think
15:24the main point uh is that it does
15:27provide a level of flexibility that did
15:29not exist three years ago both in terms
15:31of entrepreneurs where they want to
15:33start and scale companies investors
15:35whether they want to invest in companies
15:36certainly employees where they want to
15:38live and how they want to work and I
15:40think it's going to take a few years to
15:41just kind of settle it out sort of like
15:42a shake the snow globe moment for
15:44society and exactly how it plays out I
15:46don't think anybody has a really good
15:48Crystal Ball but I think it has been on
15:49unlock and and obviously you know well
15:52that Silicon Valley is still the leader
15:54of the pack and will continue to be the
15:55leader of the pack there are a lot of
15:56advantages to be there for sure but I do
15:59think we kind of hit Peak Silicon Valley
16:01maybe three years ago and now we're
16:03seeing the dispersion of talent
16:05dispersion of capital and that's going
16:06to be good for these other cities and
16:08frankly also good for the country
16:09because one of the things I didn't fully
16:11understand until about a decade ago when
16:13I started working at the with the White
16:15House and some other groups on on policy
16:18related to Innovation entrepreneurship
16:19was how critical new companies are in
16:22terms of job creation it's not small
16:24business or big business that creates
16:27net new jobs it's new businesses
16:28startups under five years and so we need
16:30to back more startups in more places
16:32most of those startups not all but most
16:34of them do want and need Venture Capital
16:36to really be successful so we've got to
16:38get more Venture Capital more
16:39entrepreneurs and more of these places
16:40if we're going to create jobs and
16:42opportunity in more of these places and
16:44give more people in the country reasons
16:46to be helpful and optimistic about the
16:47future as opposed to anxious fearful
16:50pessimistic about the future so at the
16:52core we're investors trying to generate
16:54you know top returns by by backing great
16:56entrepreneurs but there's also some
16:58broader kind of Ripple effects this
17:00could have in in different cities and
17:02and more broadly uh and possibly even
17:04helping at least in a small way uniting
17:07a divided country
17:09yeah I mean if we can rally around the
17:12fact that America Still Remains the
17:14place where entrepreneurs want to be and
17:16create great companies that's some
17:18common ground I don't I don't know
17:19anybody who I guess we have some Fringe
17:21anti-capitalist people in the country uh
17:24and we can talk about why that is uh
17:25maybe they feel a little bit left behind
17:27and Rise of the rest is helping maybe
17:28people not feel left behind
17:31um actually that is a good question did
17:32you find people
17:33were anti-capitalists or fell capitalism
17:36was broken in some way when you went
17:37around the country or did you find
17:39largely people still believe in
17:40capitalism they still believe in elbow
17:42Greece they still believe in Innovation
17:43they just feel like maybe they're not
17:45part of it what was the what was the
17:47vibe certainly a mix but I'd say
17:48generally you know people all around the
17:51country do applaud the innovators the
17:55Pioneers who build things and change
17:57things and uh and so entrepreneurship is
18:00still uh you know celebrated there are
18:02some who get you know anxious around
18:04what is sort of an opportunity Gap where
18:07because most of the startups have been
18:09on the coast a lot of people have left
18:11different parts of the Miller country
18:13feeling like they can't stay there
18:15there's not much opportunity there they
18:16have to be someplace else like like
18:18Silicon Valley so there's been a little
18:20bit of a hollowing out of some of these
18:21you know communities and that makes
18:22people nervous and some of the
18:24disruptions obviously some of the new
18:26technologies uh do end up destroying
18:29jobs in in some of these communities and
18:31this is not a new idea the automation
18:33factories for example using robotic
18:36technology has been developing for a few
18:38decades and I remind people that a
18:40century ago ninety percent of us worked
18:42on farms and now it's less than two
18:44percent and the reason it's now two
18:46percent is because technology basically
18:49allowed you to grow more food at lower
18:51cost with fewer people which actually is
18:54a good thing if you're trying to feed
18:55the world but a bad thing in terms of
18:57you know unemployment thankfully as a
19:00nation we pivoted and moved people from
19:02farms to factories and went from the
19:04agriculture Revolution to the Industrial
19:06Revolution
19:07more recently we have not made the same
19:10kind of smooth transition as we've
19:12entered the digital Kind of Revolution
19:14and that's why people feel left behind
19:17so there's a balancing act that one
19:19level people celebrate the innovators
19:21another level they're a little nervous
19:22that they're not getting any of the
19:23benefits of that Innovation and I do
19:25think if more companies start in these
19:27different cities and scale in these
19:29cities you know you'll see a dynamic
19:31change I'll just give you a few examples
19:32I mentioned this company acre Trader in
19:34Fayetteville it's basically a platform
19:36to invest in farmland and the founder
19:38was from Arkansas but then moved to San
19:40Francisco actually was working for a
19:41hedge fund in San Francisco and he came
19:43up with the idea of acre Trader but
19:45thought he would be more successful if
19:47he was in Arkansas because the first
19:49step there was getting Farmers to
19:51believe in him and trust them and put
19:53their their property on his platform
19:54that scaled quite nicely and you know
19:57that's a one example another example in
19:59Chattanooga Tennessee that's a great one
20:00by the way because Bill Gates is buying
20:02up farmland and it seems to be like an
20:04amazing investment opportunity is that
20:06one only open to accredited qualified
20:08purchasers or is it have they figured
20:10out a way to let civilians get in there
20:12and invest in Pharma they're working on
20:14trying to democratize access to that as
20:16a class of investment as you mentioned
20:18some people are able to and do invest in
20:20Farmland it's a good way to diversify
20:22your portfolio most people don't have a
20:24path to do that and that's what they're
20:26they're they're focused on in
20:27Chattanooga the company we back called
20:29Freight waves that's basically developed
20:31kind of like a Bloomberg data platform
20:33for the trucking and Logistics industry
20:36and I didn't notice that we were there
20:37with our rides rust bus but most of the
20:39big trucking companies in the country
20:41are headquartered in Chattanooga so it's
20:43actually a better place to start that
20:45company and you're seeing more of those
20:47examples and in the process creating
20:49jobs in places that felt you know left
20:52Beyond another great example I talked
20:54about in the book is what's happened in
20:55Detroit first of all it's worth
20:56remembering that 100 years ago Detroit
20:58in essence was Silicon Valley of its
21:01time when the car was the the sort of
21:03the technology of the day and people
21:05wanted to be part of that car Revolution
21:06people wanted to move to Detroit right
21:08but then Detroit lost 60 percent of its
21:11population over the last half century
21:13and the year before we rolled in our bus
21:15about eight years ago the city of
21:17Detroit went bankrupt uh so it shows you
21:19the rise in the fall but now it's the
21:21Renaissance there is amazing we've
21:23backed a number of companies there
21:24including Shinola which makes watches
21:27stockx which is a stock exchange for
21:29things with authentication neither of
21:32those companies existed 10 years ago
21:34both now have well over a thousand
21:36employees in Detroit and that's leading
21:38to The Rebirth of Detroit so this is
21:40just the reason I had to write this book
21:42is these are great stories not just
21:43about companies and entrepreneurial
21:45ideas but on what's happening in in
21:48cities and most people have no clue that
21:50this is happening and or just think it's
21:52happening in a few cities not not a few
21:54dozen cities and one of the things you
21:56learned in your career was if a company
21:58is successful you then get the alumni
22:01and if you look at AOL
22:05uhmathi and I and you made a nice
22:07measurement well we you know when where
22:09we met was uh Ted leonsis uh my great
22:13brother and your partner uh had bought
22:15my company weblock saying thank you my
22:17first big entrepreneurial win and uh I
22:19guess Dave Samuel venture capitalist
22:21freestyle you had bought Win app and
22:22winamp's first product manager what's
22:25this chimath polyhapatia some poker
22:26player in uh you know down in uh what's
22:29the place in Jersey where people play
22:31poker I forgot Boardwalk anyway Atlantic
22:33City Atlantic City yeah and I met your
22:36mom going through a revolving door quite
22:38literally
22:39at some event that Ted Leon says the
22:41march to a billion and Ted had this
22:43crazy you know uh offside for all of us
22:46svps EVPs and Jim bankoff is there right
22:49and Dave Samuels is there I mean all of
22:51these alumni have you started to see
22:53that happen yet when you see a stockx do
22:55well or any of these cities yet or is it
22:58a little early for the alumni to go out
23:00and hey they've made a million dollars
23:02in options and start another company
23:03that is happening interesting you
23:04mentioned shamot because the office I'm
23:06in downtown Washington DC you know a
23:09couple of offices over like 20 25 feet
23:12you know chamoth came to visit uh before
23:14he was moving from DC to San Francisco
23:16to join I think it was Menlo Ventures at
23:18the time
23:19maybe it was Mayfield one of them he was
23:22only there a couple years before he
23:23joined a Facebook and and you're right
23:26that what happens is and I write about
23:27in the book is calling me you know so
23:29this idea of tent pole companies that
23:31their success triggers sort of an
23:33increasing returns Network effect you
23:35know dynamic we saw that with AOL in
23:37this area which is why even though it
23:39wasn't very very Tech friendly very
23:41startup friendly when we started AOL
23:43here three decades ago it's where Amazon
23:45chose to have its second headquarters
23:47that would have been inconceivable when
23:48we were getting you know started you've
23:50seen the benefit that in Austin with
23:52Dell you've seen the benefit that with
23:53in Seattle with Microsoft more recently
23:56you've seen the benefit of that with in
23:58places like Indianapolis successive
24:00exact target that was acquired by
24:01Salesforce had lifted that or do a
24:04security acquired by Cisco and Ann Arbor
24:06so these tentpole companies show people
24:08in the community it's possible to build
24:10these significant valuable companies
24:12educate people about how to scale these
24:15companies and then do create as you say
24:17sort of alumni people that want to go
24:19off and either start new companies or
24:21have some Capital because of stock
24:23options and want to be investors in in
24:25new companies and that's a core part of
24:27what makes the Silicon Valley ecosystem
24:29so so vibrant and now we're starting to
24:31see that spread all across the country
24:33as this rise the rest accelerates
24:37I'm going to quickly explain one of the
24:40crucial types of insurance that every
24:41startup needs it's cyber Insurance
24:43obviously this covers hacks which happen
24:45more than you think the world is crazy
24:47right now we all know that cyber hacks
24:49are happening constantly so if you don't
24:51have business insurance you failed one
24:53of the first steps of being a founder
24:55and even startups need to get this
24:58insurance in place early because crazy
25:01things happen it's not that expensive
25:02and it doesn't take a lot of time thanks
25:04to our friends at in broker their
25:06technology saves you so much time so
25:08much money because prices are 20 lower
25:11and you get better coverage than the
25:13incumbents you go from sign up to quote
25:14and purchase in just 10 minutes think
25:16about that when you work with a broker
25:18instead of these large slow incumbents
25:20you're not dealing with big companies
25:22that want to talk to you on the farm for
25:24hours and hours and then they forget
25:25about you they never call you back no
25:27you had a professional Nimble
25:29organization sign up takes only days not
25:31weeks and the process is completely
25:33transparent there's no one pick pricing
25:35no they're going to treat you right
25:37to instantly buy custom built insurance
25:39for startups go to broker.com twist
25:41while you're there get an extra 10 off
25:43by using the offer code twist thanks and
25:46broker you do a great job over there the
25:48crazy thing about this is for the last
25:50decade everybody's been telling me
25:52about a dictator in China is going to
25:55steal capitalism he's going to perfect
25:58it and America is going to get wiped out
26:00and I say you know what I don't know how
26:02a strong man can take this operating
26:04system of capitalism allow a bunch of
26:06people to become famous have a bunch of
26:08Steve cases Jeff Bezos Elon musk's
26:10whatever the case may be and then uh be
26:13okay with it sure enough
26:14China just walked off the heads of every
26:17tech company and capped how much money
26:21they can make and who can be in charge
26:23of them when you look at this resiliency
26:25in America and and the fact that people
26:28haven't been able to Dethrone us what
26:31does that tell you because we the last
26:33two decades everybody's telling us how
26:34bad America is how we're going to lose
26:37and we just keep winning why does
26:39America keep winning why didn't China
26:41why wasn't China able to keep it
26:43together when they stole stole basically
26:46and cribbed our entrepreneur Playbook
26:48well I'd say first of all we do have to
26:51be careful going back to our earlier
26:53discussion that as a country we don't
26:55get cocky or complacent we have seen the
26:58globalization of Entrepreneurship you
27:01know 25 30 years ago 90 of venture
27:03capital in the world it was invested in
27:05the United States now it's well under 50
27:07and some countries like China which most
27:09people 20 30 years ago thought would be
27:11good at replicating stuff but not good
27:13at inventing stuff has gotten quite good
27:15at inventing stuff and it's quite strong
27:17in in some of the core Technologies AI
27:20robotics other kinds of things so it is
27:22a wake-up call but I I agree with your
27:24basic thesis there's something unique
27:25about the American Spirit the American
27:28story it's much more of a Bottoms Up
27:31approach to Innovation as opposed to the
27:33China you know kind of more top-down
27:35government-controlled approach to to
27:37Innovation and you know we do have an
27:39opportunity to continue to lead the way
27:41continue to be the most entrepreneur
27:43nation in the world but I do think it
27:45requires us recognizing that you know
27:47game on in terms of global competition
27:49also requiring us to ties in with ride's
27:53rest to have a more inclusive Innovation
27:55economy that just doesn't benefit a few
27:57people or a few places but it's much
27:59more widespread all across the you know
28:02the country and that also maximizes the
28:04Tennessee shots on goals you know if you
28:06want to you know win games you know more
28:08shots you know tends to lead to more
28:09goals and more more wins so how do you
28:11get more shots on goal as a nation
28:13backing more entrepreneurs and that's
28:15where backing more entrepreneurs in the
28:17dozens of cities in the middle of the
28:19country not just a few cities on the
28:20coast I think is so important to you
28:23know unite America but also I think
28:24critically important if we are going to
28:26continue to lead in in this what is much
28:28more intensified Global competition
28:30around Technology Innovation
28:32entrepreneurship all right you're
28:35you know on the margins involved
28:37politically sometimes Obama asks you to
28:39help with something you'll get on a
28:40plane and you you help out I understand
28:42uh you talk about it on a plane because
28:45my office is six blocks from the White
28:46House it's a little easier for me to
28:48help
28:49but yeah you know people want to keep
28:52pulling you in I'll put that aside for
28:53now
28:54but I want to talk about immigration and
28:57I want to talk about the polarization of
28:58this country
28:59we're sitting here everybody's debating
29:01immigration constantly fighting with
29:03each other you want no borders how can
29:05you have a country Without Borders oh
29:07you are a xenophobe you don't want
29:09anybody in the country your parents were
29:11immigrants how dare you
29:13and the truth is you know immigration is
29:15many things we've seen recruiting great
29:18entrepreneurs uh from other countries
29:21results in great things more shots on
29:22goal
29:23we need people to work in jobs that
29:26maybe Americans are not interested in
29:27taking yeah of course we don't want to
29:30flood the The Zone with so many people
29:33here that we have homeless people or
29:34issues around not enough jobs if you
29:37were in charge of immigration if you
29:39were in charge of what I call
29:40recruitment which is I think distinctly
29:42different than immigration what would
29:44you do would you take a point system
29:45like Canada Japan why not Canada and New
29:49Zealand Australia have the point-based
29:50systems some of the nordics have that
29:52what would Steve case do to stop this
29:55insane unproductive debate about
29:57immigration and Recruitment and fix it
30:00well I did work on this quite actively
30:02even 10 years ago when I was on
30:04President Obama's jobs and
30:05competitiveness Council and we made a
30:07number of recommendations I even
30:08testified in the Senate I think it's
30:10probably eight or nine years ago around
30:12the need for immigration reform and
30:14you're right you know one of the ways we
30:16we have become the leader is we have
30:18been a magnet for for talent people all
30:20around the world want to be part of
30:21America I want to you know move here and
30:23learn here and and build here and it has
30:26gotten more difficult in recent years to
30:29come it has gotten more difficult to
30:31stay and that is part of the risk that
30:33we now face as a nation uh in terms of
30:36specific policies one thing almost got
30:38done this summer though there's
30:39something called the startup Visa
30:40provision was actually in the
30:42legislation that ultimately passed all
30:44the chips and science act there were
30:46some great things about funding
30:47semiconductor you know kind of onshoring
30:49here which is positive also some things
30:51around funding Regional hubs 10 billion
30:53dollars authorized for regional hubs
30:55which will be helpful obviously to what
30:57we're doing with with rise of rest but
30:58the startup Visa provision and was in
31:00there as well that would allow people
31:02coming to universities here to stay and
31:05that's something that's got broad
31:06bipartisan support but just didn't quite
31:08get done this this way what is the
31:11sticking point here it seems so obvious
31:13if we have we have over 10 million jobs
31:15in the middle of whatever we're going
31:16through right now this quasi recession
31:18downturn deflation period of assets we
31:21have Tower 10 million jobs why can't we
31:23all agree that a million smart people
31:25can stay in this country and start
31:27companies here maybe even tax them in a
31:28unique way if you want to come here and
31:30start a company you pay an extra 250k a
31:33year to to do that for 10 years or
31:35something if and if you create a certain
31:37number of jobs you don't have to pay it
31:38well why why can't we get through this
31:40if it's bipartisan I'm so confused it is
31:44confusing and it's frustrating but the
31:45reason is that particular provision
31:47essentially around High skilled
31:50immigration does have broad bipartisan
31:52support but immigration is you know as
31:54complicated there are many aspects to it
31:56protecting the Border what to do with
31:58dreamers other things and and the
32:00tendency is for these things to all get
32:03combined and looking for a broader more
32:05comprehensive solution and that is more
32:07difficult you know politically so that's
32:09why it needs you know some some focus on
32:11more specific aspects such as the
32:13startup Visa might be the the best way
32:15to move forward there
32:17wow to your core question both the brown
32:20Global competition between the United
32:22States and China and other countries uh
32:24and you need to you know innovate and
32:26back more entrepreneurs is key part of
32:28it but I think winning this Global
32:30ballot for talent continuing to be this
32:32magnet for talent is likely the most
32:35important way for America to continue to
32:37maintain the lead and if we lose our
32:39lead it probably will be over this issue
32:41that we will have lost that that status
32:44of being the the magnet that people want
32:46to come to the place they want to you
32:48know live and live and work and build
32:50and and hopefully we can you know pass
32:52some sensible immigration reform at
32:55least on this particular part of it uh
32:57sooner Rod later I think we have to
32:59reframe it if we put it onto immigration
33:01everybody starts thinking they're going
33:03to take our jobs and somebody's running
33:04across the border and they're you know
33:06with a backpack full of fentanyl let's
33:08call it recruiting you know like we need
33:11to recruit job creators and if you frame
33:14it as we're going to recruit
33:15entrepreneurs to create jobs for
33:17Americans and there's 500 000 slots a
33:20year available you apply to it you tell
33:22us what's your plan to create more
33:23high-paying jobs with great benefits and
33:26we'll have some organization that
33:28assesses that and yeah if the Venture
33:30capitals back you
33:32great what I see so many times is people
33:35go to Canada now and I was in Canada a
33:37couple years ago on a speaking gig some
33:39people from Vancouver are like listen
33:40you ever have problems getting into us
33:42just call our office we'll get your
33:44entrepreneurs here we want the jobs here
33:46and then they can hang out here you're
33:47in the same time zone and then
33:48eventually while they work on getting to
33:50America they get there but Canada sees
33:52our failure in this regard as their
33:53opportunity absolutely even the
33:56Canadians even put up a billboard in
33:57Silicon Valley a few years ago saying
33:59come to Canada you know we'll make it
34:01easy for you you know they do have
34:04a very smart immigration policy so I I
34:07totally agree with what you're saying we
34:09need to address this and and by the fact
34:11that we're unable to address it puts our
34:13puts our country at real risk
34:17these days every new potential hire can
34:20feel like a high stakes wager for your
34:22small business because listen we're
34:24living in turbulent time so you want to
34:26be a hundred percent certain that you
34:27have access to the most qualified Elite
34:30candidates that's why you need to check
34:32out LinkedIn jobs LinkedIn jobs helps
34:34find the right people for your team
34:36faster and they'll do it for free and
34:40you can add your job and the purple
34:42hiring frame around your LinkedIn
34:44profile to spread the word that you're
34:46hiring they've got tons of simple tools
34:48over there at LinkedIn jobs to make
34:50screening questions easy so you can find
34:53the candidates who really want the jobs
34:54and of course you know they have the
34:56skills and the experience all out there
34:58on everybody's profile people voting for
35:00what skills people have to validate that
35:02for you I don't have to explain how
35:04awesome LinkedIn is and all these
35:05features you know that because you're on
35:06it every day and this is why small
35:08businesses rate LinkedIn jobs number one
35:10in delivering quality hires versus
35:12living competitors LinkedIn jobs helps
35:15you find the qualified candidates you
35:16want to talk talk to faster and did you
35:18know every week nearly 40 million job
35:20Seekers visit LinkedIn that's right post
35:22your job for free at linkedin.com twist
35:24that's linkedin.com
35:27t-w-i-s-t to post your first job for
35:30free terms and conditions apply let me
35:31ask you about another political issue
35:33this is
35:34you know I've learned later in my career
35:36we both were entrepreneurs and then we
35:38both became Capital allocators right
35:40and you start raising funds you start
35:42learning about the limitations you raise
35:44a venture fund you can have whatever two
35:46thousand what's called qualified
35:47purchasers these are organizations or
35:49people with five million or more for the
35:50audience they don't know you can have
35:52maybe 99 to 250 accredited investors
35:54depending on the scale of the fund if
35:55you have 250 your capped at 10 million
35:57we're sitting here
35:59and people want access to venture
36:01capital we saw that they were buying
36:03nfts they were buying ethereum they were
36:05buying crypto assets that did not have
36:08products associated with them
36:10yet somebody who is incredibly smart who
36:13drives an Uber or hosts an Airbnb or
36:17Works in HR at AOL back in the day
36:20they're not allowed to use those great
36:24Services LinkedIn Uber Airbnb and buy
36:26shares in them or look at who the
36:28Venture Capital firm behind them is and
36:30say I want to be an LP in that
36:32what is wrong with capital formation in
36:35America and how do we fix it
36:37well it's again something I've been
36:39working on for a while including the
36:41jump starting our business startups act
36:42that passed Congress about 10 years ago
36:44the jobs act had some Provisions around
36:46Equity crowdfunding that were a step in
36:48the right direction did those work by
36:50the way they seem to be working
36:52slowly they they work slowly because the
36:55SEC put regulations in place slowly and
37:00their overarching concern which is you
37:02know something that's fair to consider
37:04but shouldn't necessarily be you know
37:05the driver is protecting consumers you
37:08know protecting investors and and
37:11some of the things you mentioned in the
37:13crypto space or it's backspace or other
37:15things people lost a lot of money and so
37:17The Regulators say oh we better make
37:18sure that people are protected and
37:21sometimes the desire to protect people
37:23which is understandable trumps the
37:26broader imperative which is both
37:28democratizing access to the Innovation
37:30economy for people who want to invest in
37:32The Innovation economy and also you know
37:34giving more entrepreneurs with ideas
37:36acts as the capital they need to start
37:38and scale so again that is an area where
37:40I think we need more attention on you
37:43know not just what could go wrong but
37:45also what might go right and make sure
37:47we're thinking about the benefits that
37:49can come both from the investors being
37:51able to back some of these companies at
37:53an earlier stage where a lot of the
37:55value is is is graded as well as how
37:57many more entrepreneurs can get back
37:59that might start some of these these
38:01these great companies and things have
38:03clearly changed in in the in the IPO
38:05Market when companies like mine AOL was
38:08going public it was uh 1992 so third 30
38:11years ago I was the first internet
38:12company to go public we raised 10
38:15million dollars in our IPO and the value
38:17of the company that day was 70 million
38:19dollars and other companies like Amazon
38:23Microsoft and to it we're going public
38:25in that time frame they are all worth a
38:27few hundred million dollars of course
38:30now nobody goes public when they're
38:31worth a few hundred million dollars
38:33generally they don't go public until
38:34they're worth 100 billion dollars
38:35sometimes sometimes more and as a result
38:38the The Venture Capital investors can do
38:40well but the individual private
38:42investors miss out on that by the time
38:44they're given an opportunity to invest a
38:46lot of The Upside has already been been
38:48uh been taken so I do think it's
38:51important to give more people access to
38:53investing in companies at an earlier
38:55stage and hopefully this next round of I
38:58know the SEC is looking at some some
39:01changes hopefully some of the changes
39:02will get made which again would do the
39:04right things in terms of protecting
39:06investors while also enabling people to
39:09participate more with early stage
39:10investment and companies with proper
39:13disclosure
39:14you know it does seem to me you can go
39:16to Vegas uh and having never played
39:19poker I've used these arguments my
39:21friend I jump in a poker game and not
39:24know if a flush beats are straight if
39:26it's just crazy I have a very simple
39:28solution to all this you know you drive
39:30a car and or your kids go get a driver's
39:33permit you got to take lessons a
39:35driver's class and where you you take a
39:37test or if you want to get a firearm and
39:39depending on the state you're in you
39:40might have to take a little bit of a
39:41test why don't we have a test to make
39:43people sophisticated I've been watching
39:45some of these um really aspiring Angel
39:48Investors and they're going and doing
39:50like series
39:5267bs or whatever that have nothing to do
39:54with investing in startups but for some
39:57reason the SEC says hey this would make
39:58you a credit if you had this and they go
40:01take the test themselves and have like
40:02some weird back door that nobody's
40:04actually clear on if it's actually makes
40:06you accredited or not why don't we just
40:08get a test going here I think it's fair
40:10but Jason you need to spend more time
40:13not just on your pods but also you know
40:16talking to folks that can Congress folks
40:19in the SEC well it's painful but it's
40:22important and and I do think that's one
40:24of I think we're entering an era and I
40:26know some people don't want to hear this
40:27but I think it's true where you know
40:29policy is going to matter more some of
40:32the sectors that are getting disrupted
40:34like health care and food and financial
40:36services and many others they tend to be
40:38regulated businesses people generally
40:40are don't like regulations but do want
40:42to make sure that the drugs their
40:45parents are taking or the medical
40:46devices that are being used or you know
40:48that actually work or the you know
40:50planes actually can fly some there's
40:52some safety issues and efficacy issues
40:54that I think people do think are
40:56important and that's that's where a lot
40:57of the Innovation is going to start
40:59happening this is less about apps in the
41:01App Store and more about the internet
41:02meaning the real world and and so
41:04therefore policy regulatory issues are
41:06going to become more important and one
41:08of the things I've urge which is part of
41:10the reason I'm on the board of tech net
41:11is for the innovators including a place
41:13like Silicon Valley to spend more time
41:15with the policy makers educating them
41:17about some of the you know the
41:19challenges and some of the opportunities
41:20so they are smarter about understanding
41:22you know what to focus on and can have
41:24you know perhaps some more Creative
41:26Solutions and that might otherwise be be
41:29surfaced all right I'll do it I'll get
41:32involved all right
41:33incessantly on my podcast I know you've
41:35talked though I've heard you talk about
41:36which is great that's but the first step
41:38is talking the first the next step is
41:40putting into action my friends all right
41:42well I'm gonna do I'm definitely gonna
41:43do that let me let me close with two
41:45things number one
41:47how crazy are we to allow an app that's
41:50controlled by the Chinese government to
41:52be in the pockets and on the phone of
41:54every single person in America
41:56when they do not reciprocate and allow
41:58Twitter Facebook and other
42:00products in that country how crazy is
42:03that how crazy are we the big there is a
42:05big controversy obviously around tick
42:06tock including here in Congress I've
42:08talked to a number of folks who are
42:10taking a hard look at that and do have
42:11legitimate concerns I've also talked to
42:13the CEO of tick tock and yeah he
42:16understands the need to kind of create a
42:19clear firewall between what's happening
42:21with Tick Tock the United States and
42:23what's happening in in China so I don't
42:25I don't have all the you know the
42:26details about it but I do recognize it
42:28it's a it's an app that's taken the
42:30World by storm certainly taking this
42:31country by storm it's used heavily by a
42:34lot of people and I think there are
42:35considerable concerns about you know
42:37privacy and and safety and and certainly
42:40also extra concerns because of the the
42:43you know the connection with bike dance
42:44in China we have no choice but to
42:47to bifurcate that that app from Chinese
42:50government access I mean that that's
42:51what it comes down to so I think that I
42:53believe they're working on that yeah I
42:55think they'll get there all right listen
42:57we talked about this before
42:59you're one of the great entrepreneurs of
43:01all time
43:02you have now
43:04been to Middle America you understand
43:06not just the coastal Elites and those
43:08cities you understand the Heartland you
43:10put your money where your mouth is
43:13you're telling me I got to get more
43:15involved in politics
43:16when is Steve case gonna get more
43:18involved in politics are you ever going
43:20to make my dream come true and run for
43:23public office because I listen I'd love
43:25to have the idea of Bloomberg being
43:26present and I got all behind that that
43:28got me very excited but you running for
43:31president to me would be the dream the
43:34founder of American online somebody who
43:36understands business somebody who
43:37understands Capital formation somebody
43:39who actually understands politics and
43:41could bring this country together you're
43:42a moderate Democrat
43:44if you were called on to serve would you
43:46ever consider forget about the
43:48presidency which is where you belong
43:50that would have been AOL time one should
43:52have made you CEO a president that was
43:53the mistake I'll say it you don't have
43:55to say it would you ever consider in
43:58your third Act
43:59entrepreneur capital allocator and then
44:01representing your country in any form
44:03would you consider well well you're very
44:06kind and I remember we've had this
44:07discussion makes you very uncomfortable
44:09last time I figured it was coming again
44:11and yeah yeah two things I'd say one is
44:13I do think there's a big difference
44:15between policy and politics and I'm
44:19quite engaged on policy and do it in a
44:22in a non-partisan way trying to be a
44:25bridge between Democrats and and
44:27Republicans and and in particularly
44:30around Innovation entrepreneurship which
44:31ties in with some of the things we've
44:33talked about in terms of you know
44:34Capital issues and immigration issues
44:36and and so forth so I remain actively
44:39involved again I'm once again
44:41co-chairing the national advisory
44:42Council on Innovation and
44:44Entrepreneurship working on the industry
44:46of the future and working on Regional
44:48hubs and and so forth but I think my
44:50best and highest use is to be doing that
44:53in a bipartisan way and being a bridge
44:55and you know I've done that for you know
44:58a while now I think I'll continue to do
44:59that I also think it's the second thing
45:01I I think is a way for me to contribute
45:03to this country is to help the rest Rise
45:06And while I one could argue you could do
45:08that from the prism of being in politics
45:11I actually concluded I can be as
45:13effective if not more effective doing
45:15exactly what I'm doing you know
45:17championing these entrepreneurs
45:18spotlighting these cities whether it's
45:20you know creating a fund to invest in
45:22them or writing a book to tell their
45:24their stories I think if we can back
45:26more entrepreneurs in more places we can
45:29help more cities you know communities
45:31more broadly regions be renewed uh we we
45:34can help you know create more uh you
45:36know jobs in those places more
45:38opportunity in those places that could
45:40have a very positive impact on politics
45:42and maybe even help bridge this you know
45:44political divide as hyper partisanship
45:46that we have and there are many facets
45:48to it for sure I don't want to be overly
45:50you know simplistic but one is this
45:52opportunity Gap and the data is pretty
45:54compelling that there are definitely a
45:55lot of people probably about 70 percent
45:57of people
45:58that are anxious and fearful about the
46:00future not optimistic about the future
46:02and we have to change that and the only
46:04way I believe we can change that is to
46:06create more opportunity for them more
46:08jobs for them in their own communities
46:10in their own backyard and the only way I
46:12think we can do that is if we back more
46:14startups support more entrepreneurs
46:16launching in those cities and the only
46:18way to do that is to shine a spotlight
46:20on those entrepreneurs on those cities
46:22get some of that Coastal Venture Capital
46:24paying attention to what's happening in
46:26dozens of cities all across the you know
46:28the country so just for me I think it's
46:30the best way I can you know contribute
46:32so I'm grateful for your continued
46:34enthusiasm and support and championing
46:37my candidacy but I think I'll continue
46:39to be try to be the entrepreneur in
46:42Chief on behalf of the entrepreneurs all
46:44across this country who I think can
46:46build the next great chapter of the
46:48American story and do it in a more
46:49inclusive way and do it in a way that
46:52maximizes the likelihood we Remain the
46:54leader of the pack in terms of global
46:56Innovation well you know here here's the
46:58thing Steve Bannon he saw with JD
47:01Vance's book he saw these people feel in
47:04Middle America Appalachia wherever and
47:06people felt like they weren't part of
47:07America anymore and and he used it to
47:09get Trump into office and it did work
47:12and now I think what you're doing with
47:14this incredible work investing in and
47:16visiting and spending time and the rise
47:18of the rest movement I think what you're
47:20doing is actually helping solve that
47:22problem not just capitalize on it for
47:23yourself or some personal gain or power
47:25but to actually turn it around and that
47:28would be the next chapter of this I
47:29think if we can make people in Middle
47:31America like you're doing with these
47:33Investments small Investments one at a
47:34time 200 of them you know if we make
47:38people there feel like they're part of
47:39it and they have an equal stake in
47:40America hey yeah maybe we could have a
47:43bipartisan ticket we you don't identify
47:45exactly as Republican or Democrat right
47:47you apply yeah
47:48one of those people in those middle that
47:51that you know it's a group of people
47:53that are frustrated by the impasse
47:55renouncing and and politics so hopefully
47:58yeah it'll be uh more and more of a
48:00mobilization that you know kind of
48:02sometimes too silent middle uh we'll
48:05kind of Step Up more uh but you
48:07mentioned Appalachia one of the
48:08companies we backed it started about
48:10five years ago a company called app
48:12Harvest and coal country outside in
48:14Eastern Kentucky and and that company
48:16that was 500 jobs and an area for
48:19decades there was just despair opioid
48:21problems so et cetera Etc this because
48:23an entrepreneur had an idea and started
48:25a company that straddled nicely and and
48:28creating opportunity and hope in in that
48:30place we just need to do that in other
48:32places and based on what I've seen on
48:34the road in the last decade which again
48:36the whole reason to write the book it's
48:38amazing what's happening not one or two
48:40cities not just an Austin or Seattle or
48:42Miami
48:44several dozen cities that really are
48:47writing the new
48:48the next chapter I should say in the
48:50American story and and it's exciting uh
48:53and and surprising to me I think most
48:55people reading the book have been
48:56surprised by how many cities are really
48:58On The Rise we just need to Champion
49:00them and if we could do that then maybe
49:02this country will be a little more
49:04united and be a little more you know you
49:07know kind of stronger globally uh in
49:10terms of what's Happening all right
49:11listen I appreciate you you've always
49:12been a mensch to me my whole career when
49:14I was a kid I asked you for a selfie at
49:16AOL the green AOL Greenhouse supported
49:18me Ted bought my second company been a
49:20man uh an inspiration to me as I've come
49:23up as an entrepreneur and you're you're
49:24just a national treasure for you for
49:26America and the work you do we
49:28appreciate you everybody go buy the book
49:29right now Steve actually took the time
49:32to read the audiobook like a real author
49:35does and uh I just finished the
49:37audiobook actually this morning it's
49:39fantastic must listen for everybody and
49:42uh continued success stay past 2028 you
49:45got my vote if you ever do it thank you
49:47great being with you as always all right
49:50talk to Washington talk about talk with
49:52the SEC in Congress and join us on our
49:54class as we hit the road all across
49:55America I'm in I'm in I'll definitely do
49:57a couple episodes from the road with you
49:58and I'd love to actually I don't know
50:00how DC works but I would love to just
50:03like interview you or a couple of people
50:06about evolving Securities Law what do I
50:08do just rent a movie theater and just
50:09invite people to come and just have a
50:11conversation we'll set something up
50:12let's do it let's do it let's change
50:14these investor laws all right everybody
50:15Steve case rise of the rest stop what
50:18you're doing and buy it right now I'll
50:19see you uh hopefully soon on this uh bus
50:22tour and and then on the road thanks
50:24everybody cheers brother

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