Stephen Gets A Straight Answer Out Of Donald Rumsfeld — Transcript

Full transcript

1. 0:00>> Stephen: WELCOME BACK, EVERYBODY.
2. 0:02WE'RE BACK WITH DONALD RUMSFELD.
3. 0:05OKAY, SECRETARY RUMSFELD, DONALD RUMSFELD, ARE YOU EVER UPSET
4. 0:09THAT NOW THERE IS ANOTHER DONALD OUT THERE WHO IS EVEN MORE
5. 0:14FAMOUS THAN YOU ABOUT NOT APOLOGIZING FOR ANYTHING?
6. 0:19BECAUSE HE WILL NOT BACK DOWN FROM ANYTHING HE'S EVER SAID.
7. 0:22DO YOU-- DOES HE STRIKE YOU AS A COMMANDER IN CHIEF?
8. 0:26>> I DON'T KNOW HIM.
9. 0:28I'VE NEVER MET HIM.
10. 0:28>> Stephen: REALLY?
11. 0:30>> WHAT STRIKES ME ABOUT HIM IS THAT HE'S-- I CAN'T IMAGINE HOW
12. 0:35BERNIE SANDERS AND DONALD TRUMP CAN PULL CROWDS OF 20,000 PEOPLE
13. 0:42TO AN EVENT TO HEAR THEM SPEAK.
14. 0:44PRESIDENTS DON'T DO THAT.
15. 0:46VICE PRESIDENTS DON'T DO THAT.
16. 0:47>> Stephen: I THINK THEY'RE APPEALING ON AN EMOTIONAL LEVEL.
17. 0:50PEOPLE ARE VERY FRUSTRATED WITH WHAT IS GOING ON IN WASHINGTON
18. 0:52AND WHETHER OR NOT YOU AGREE WITH WHAT EITHER MAN IS SAYING,
19. 0:55THEY'RE SAYING I AGREE WITH YOU.
20. 0:57WE HAVE TO CHANGE THE STATUS QUO IN SOME WAYS.
21. 0:59>> I THINK YOU ARE PROBABLY RIGHT.
22. 1:01THEY ARE TOUCHING A NERVE SOMEWHERE.
23. 1:02>> Stephen: DOES THE SECRETARY OF DEFENSE AFFECT POLICY OR
24. 1:06IMPLEMENT POLICY?
25. 1:07>> THE PRESIDENT IS THE POLICY MAKER.
26. 1:10AND HE TAKES RECOMMENDATIONS FROM HIS CABINET AND FROM SENIOR
27. 1:14OFFICIALS IN THE WHITE HOUSE.
28. 1:15AND THEN HE MAKES A JUDGEMENT.
29. 1:17HE DECIDES WHAT OUGHT TO BE DONE.
30. 1:20AND THE AMERICAN PEOPLE BASICALLY DECIDE BECAUSE THEY
31. 1:23DECIDE WHO IS GOING TO BE PRESIDENT.
32. 1:26AND THAT'S THE WAY THE SYSTEM WORKS.
33. 1:28>> Stephen: WHEN THE DECISION WAS PLAYED TO GO INTO IRAQ IN
34. 1:332003, THE SITUATION THAT WE HAVE NOW WHICH IS A CHAOTIC IRAQ AND
35. 1:39SYRIA WITH CONTROL OF ISIS AND OR THE CHAOS FOLLOWING THE ARAB
36. 1:44SPRING IN AREAS AS WELL, IS THE SITUATION WE HAVE NOW, WAS IT
37. 1:47EVER CONSIDERED TO BE AN OUTCOME?
38. 1:49WAS THIS A WORST-CASE SCENARIO OR A BEYOND WORST-CASE SCENARIO?
39. 1:55>> I THINK THE DISORDER IN THE ENTIRE REGON AND THE CONFLICT
40. 2:01BETWEEN THE SUNNIES AND THE SHIA IS SOMETHING THAT GENERALLY
41. 2:07PEOPLE HAD NOT ANTICIPATED.
42. 2:09ON THE OTHER HAND, IF YOU THINK WHAT EISENHOWER SAID, HE SAID
43. 2:12THE PLAN IS NOTHING, PLANNING IS EVERYTHING.
44. 2:15THE POINT BEING THAT ANYTHING CHANGES WITH FIRST CONTACT WITH
45. 2:19A PROBLEM.
46. 2:21THE ENEMY HAS A BRAIN.
47. 2:22THEY MAKE DECISIONS.
48. 2:23PEOPLE ASK ME WELL, WHY ARE THEY DOING WHAT THEY'RE DOING.
49. 2:28AND THE ANSWER IS THEY'RE DOING WHAT THEY ARE DOING BECAUSE THEY
50. 2:31CAN DO IT.
51. 2:31BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE BIG ARMIES, BIG NAVIES, BIG AIR
52. 2:35FORCES WHICH THEY CAN'T COMPETE WITH US.
53. 2:37SO THEY ARE ATTACKING FROM AN ASSYMETRICAL STANDPOINT AND
54. 2:41THEY'RE TRYING TO DESTROY THE NATION STATE CONCEPT IN THE
55. 2:45WORLD.
56. 2:45THE FIRST THING THEY DO IS TO ELIMINATE A BORDER, FOR EXAMPLE,
57. 2:48BETWEEN IRAQ AND SYRIA.
58. 2:49>> Stephen: THE TOP TWO REPUBLICANS AND THE TOP TWO
59. 2:53DEMOCRATS, NONE OF THEM THINK THAT GOING INTO IRAQ WAS THE
60. 2:56RIGHT CHOICE TO MAKE.
61. 2:57DO YOU HAVE ANY REFLECTION ON THE DECISION TO GO INTO IRAQ?
62. 3:00DO YOU STILL THINK IT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO 12 YEARS
63. 3:04LATER?
64. 3:04>> I THINK WHEN THE PRESIDENT MADE THE DECISION, THERE
65. 3:08WERE-- THE IRAQI GOVERNMENT HAD OPPOSED SOMETHING LIKE 15 OR 16
66. 3:12U.S. RESOLUTIONS.
67. 3:13THEY WERE REPROSSIVE.
68. 3:14THEY HAD USED CHEMICAL WEAPONS ON THEIR NEIGHBORS, THE
69. 3:18IRANIANS.
70. 3:18THEY USED CHEMICAL WEAPONS ON THEIR OWN POPULATION, THE KURDS.
71. 3:22AND THERE WAS A LOT OF EVIDENCE THAT THEY-- THEY ALREADY USED
72. 3:26CHEMICAL WEAPONS.
73. 3:27AND IT SEEMS TO ME THE PRESIDENT GIVEN THE FACTS HE HAD FROM THE
74. 3:32INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY MADE THE RIGHT DECISION.
75. 3:34IN RETROSPECT, THEY DIDN'T FIND LARGE CASHES-- CACHES OF
76. 3:40CHEMICAL OR BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS.
77. 3:41ALTHOUGH THE U.N. INSPECTOR DID SAY THEY HAD THE FACILITIES
78. 3:45STILL THERE, THE PEOPLE WERE STILL THERE, THEY HAD THE
79. 3:48CAPABILITY AND THE PRECURSORS TO THESE WEAPONS WERE STILL THERE.
80. 3:51AND THEY COULD HAVE RECONSTITUTED THEM IN A MATTER
81. 3:54OF WEEKS.
82. 3:54>> Stephen: THERE IS ONE QUESTION THAT GETS ASKED OF YOU
83. 3:57AND OTHER PEOPLE WHO WERE IN FAVOR OF THE INVASION OF 2003 IN
84. 4:02IRAQ THAT I JUST QUESTION I DON'T THINK IS FAIR.
85. 4:06WHICH IS.
86. 4:08>> THEN WHY ASK AN UNFAIR QUESTION.
87. 4:10>> Stephen: NO, NO, NO I WILL TELL YOU WHY I THINK IT'S
88. 4:13UNFAIR, I WILL ASK A DIFFERENT QUESTION.
89. 4:14I THINK THIS QUESTION IS UNFAIR, WHICH IS IF YOU KNEW NOW-- IF
90. 4:18YOU KNEW THEN WHAT YOU KNEW NOW, WOULD YOU MAKED SAME DECISION.
91. 4:22YOU ONLY THEN WHAT YOU KNOW THEN.
92. 4:24>> THAT'S RIGHT.
93. 4:25>> Stephen: YOU ONLY NOW NOW WHAT YOU KNOW NOW.
94. 4:26AND OUR NOW IS TOMORROW'S THEN.
95. 4:28SO THEY'LL BE SAYING THE SAME THINGS TO THE DECISIONS GETS
96. 4:32MADE TODAY, 15 YEARS FROM NOW.
97. 4:34>> IT'S TRUE.
98. 4:34>> Stephen: BUT THAT LEADS ME TO YOUR MOST FAMOUS SAYING WHICH
99. 4:37IS TALKING ABOUT UNCERTAINTY IN THE WORLD.
100. 4:39THAT THERE ARE NO KNOWNS, THINGS WE KNOW WE KNOW, AND TELL ME IF
101. 4:43I GET THIS WRONG.
102. 4:44CUZ I KNOW THIS IS YOUR BABY.
103. 4:46THERE ARE KNOWN UNKNOWNS.
104. 4:48THINGS WE KNOW THAT WE DON'T KNOW.
105. 4:51AND THERE ARE ALSO UNKNOWNS UNKNOWNS.
106. 4:55>> BUT IN THIS CASE, ISN'T THE ONE THAT GOT US SOMETHING THAT
107. 5:02IS-- THERE'S A FOURTH OPTION THAT NO ONE EVER TALKS ABOUT.
108. 5:04WHICH IS THE UNKNOWN KNOWNS.
109. 5:07WHICH IS THE THING THAT WE KNOW, AND THEN WE CHOOSE NOT TO KNOW
110. 5:11THEM OR NOT LET OTHER PEOPLE KNOW WE KNOW.
111. 5:16THAT THERE ARE SOME THINGS-- (APPLAUSE).
112. 5:21>> Stephen: RECENTLY A 2002 MEMO FROM THE JOINT CHIEFS OF
113. 5:26STAFF SAYS THAT 90% OF THE.
114. 5:33>> I'M GOING TO SAVE YOU EMBARRASSMENT.
115. 5:35>> Stephen: I CAN'T BE EMBARRASSED, I'M A COMEDIAN.
116. 5:39THIS THING CAME OUT, IT SAYS OUR KNOWLEDGE OF THE IRAQI NEW CLEAR
117. 5:43WEAPONS PROGRAM IS BASED LARGELY PERHAPS 90% ON ANALYSIS OF
118. 5:47IMPRECISE INTELLIGENCE.
119. 5:47SO THERE IS ANALYSIS OF INTELLIGENCE THAT YOU BELIEVE
120. 5:51THAT THERE ARE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION IN IRAQ, AND I
121. 5:54BELIEVE THAT SIN CERTIFICATELY.
122. 5:55I DON'T THINK ANYBODY MADE UP THE BELIEF THAT THERE WERE
123. 5:58WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION.
124. 5:59THAT IS CYNICISM BEYOND I WOULD EVER WANT TO THINK OF MY
125. 6:03GOVERNMENT.
126. 6:03I BELIEVE THAT EVERYBODY BELIEVED THAT THEY WERE THERE.
127. 6:05BUT THERE WAS NO HARD PROOF THAT THEY WERE THERE.
128. 6:08>> UH-HUH.
129. 6:08>> Stephen: AND YET IT WAS PRESENTED TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE
130. 6:11AS IF THERE WAS.
131. 6:12SO THERE WAS AN UNKNOWN KNOWN FOR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.
132. 6:16IT WAS KNOWN THAT THERE WAS NOT HARD EVIDENCE, BUT WE WERE
133. 6:21PRESENTED A PARTIAL PICTURE.
134. 6:22AND THAT'S THE UNKNOWN KNOWN THAT WE WERE DENIED.
135. 6:26DO YOU THINK THAT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO?
136. 6:28>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, THAT MEMO WAS SENT BY THE JOINT CHIEFS OF
137. 6:33STAFF.
138. 6:34>> Stephen: YES.
139. 6:34>> AND WE PUT IT ON MY WEBSITE.
140. 6:36>> Stephen: UH-HUH.
141. 6:37>> AND MADE IT PUBLIC YEARS AGO.
142. 6:39>> Stephen: I KNOW IT'S DECLASSIFIED.
143. 6:41>> WELL, YEAH, BUT-- I DON'T PUT CLASSIFIED THINGS ON MY WEBSITE.
144. 6:47(LAUGHTER) I WANT YOU TO KNOW THAT.
145. 6:48>> Stephen: ALL RIGHT.
146. 6:49YOU CAN GET IN TROUBLE FOR THAT.
147. 6:52>> YEAH.
148. 6:52>> Stephen: I'M NOT TRYING TO YOU AN UNFAIR QUESTION, I'M
149. 6:56TRYING TO ASK YOU WHAT I THINK IS A FAIR THING.
150. 6:58WERE THERE THINGS THAT THE ADMINISTRATION, OR YOU KNEW THAT
151. 7:01WE DIDN'T LEARN ABOUT OUT OF THE BEST POSSIBLE INTENTIONS WHICH
152. 7:04IS THERE WERE THINGS THAT WOULD UNDERMINE THE CASE FOR A WAR YOU
153. 7:07THOUGHT WAS NECESSARY TO SAVE THE UNITED STATES.
154. 7:10>> THE PRESIDENT HAD A AVAILABLE TO HIM INTELLIGENCE FROM ALL
155. 7:15ELEMENTS OF THE GOVERNMENT.
156. 7:18AND THE NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL MEMBERS HAD THAT
157. 7:21INFORMATION.
158. 7:21IT WAS ALL SHARED.
159. 7:22IT WAS ALL SUPPLIED.
160. 7:24AND IT'S NEVER CERTAIN, IF IT WERE-- IF IT WERE A FACT, IT
161. 7:30WOULDN'T BE CALLED INTELLIGENCE.
162. 7:34>> Stephen: WOW.
163. 7:39I THINK YOU ANSWERED MY QUESTION.
164. 7:42(LAUGHTER) I MEAN-- IS INTELLIGENCE IS
165. 7:49TOUGH TO DO.
166. 7:51AND WHAT YOU DO IS YOU LOOK AT ALL OF THAT AND IF YOU'VE GOT A
167. 7:55CERTAIN SET OF FACTS THAT YOU CAN NEVER FIE 100 PERCENT, AND
168. 7:58THEN THERE IS INFORMATION THAT IS NOT CAPABLE OF BEING VERIFIED
169. 8:05100 PERCENT, AND IT'S OUT OF THAT AGGREGATION OF INFORMATION
170. 8:08THAT PRESIDENTS MAKE DECISIONS ALL THE TIME.
171. 8:12>> Stephen: I GUESS THE ULTIMATE QUESTION IS, IS THAT
172. 8:15BECAUSE THERE TURNED OUT TO BE NO WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION
173. 8:19AND BECAUSE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE NOW FEEL A MAJORITY THAT IT WAS
174. 8:21THE WRONG WAR, DO YOU THINK IT UNDERMINES OUR TRUST OF THE
175. 8:25GOVERNMENT, THAT IS NECESSARY FOR YOUR INTELLIGENCE APPARATUS
176. 8:28THAT YOU ARE DESCRIBING TO DO THEIR JOB.
177. 8:30BECAUSE IF YOU SAY TRUST US, WE'VE GOT THIS, AND YOU GET IT
178. 8:33SO WRONG, ISN'T ANOTHER LEVEL OF DAMAGE THAT WE WON'T TRUST THEM
179. 8:38NEXT TIME.
180. 8:39>> I THINK THERE'S ALWAYS A RISK THAT PEOPLE LOOKING AT
181. 8:43GOVERNMENT WILL COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT THEY MAY NOT BE
182. 8:48RIGHT.
183. 8:48THAT IS WHY WE HAVE A DEMOCRACY.
184. 8:51I MEAN THAT'S WHY PEOPLE VOTE AND THEY MAKE JUDGEMENTS.
185. 8:55AND WE-- I THINK MOST PEOPLE IN THE UNITED STATES UNDERSTAND
186. 8:58THAT GOVERNMENT IS NOT PERFECT.
187. 9:00I MEAN LOOK HOW LONG IT TAKES TO GET SNOW REMOVED.
188. 9:08BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, I THINK WHAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT ARE THE
189. 9:11INTENTIONS AND THE CAPABILITY OF THE PEOPLE AND FOR THE MOST
190. 9:15PART, I THINK IT WAS CHURCHILL WHO SAID THAT DEMOCRACY IS THE
191. 9:19WORSE FORM OF GOVERNMENT EXCEPT FOR ANY OTHER THAT'S EVER BEEN
192. 9:23TRIED.
193. 9:23AND-- .
194. 9:24>> Stephen: YOU NO HE WHAT ELSE HE SAID?
195. 9:25TRY MY SOLITAIRE GAME.
196. 9:29CHURCHILL SOLITAIRE.
197. 9:31DONALD RUMSFELD, EVERYBODY.
198. 9:33THANK YOU, SIR.
199. 9:33>> THANK YOU.
200. 9:35>> Stephen: IT IS AN HONOR TO TALK WITH YOU.