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Soviet Spy Anthony Blunt Interviewed on News at Ten (1979) — Transcript

by Frontline by ITN · 2,876 words · 415 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:01[Music]
0:16blunt says he put his conscience before
0:18his
0:19country he says there must have been
0:21more communist
0:23spies good evening Mr Anthony blunt the
0:26former spy for the Russians came out of
0:28hiding and told his story today he said
0:31he'd put his conscience before his
0:33country in working for the Russians he
0:35said guy Burgess The Spy Who dead had
0:38recruited him not the other way round he
0:41said the official Secrets act prevented
0:43him from saying whether or not he
0:46recruited spies when later he became a
0:48Dawn at Cambridge but he said there must
0:50have been more spies he said Kim filby
0:53the double agent now a general in the
0:55Russian spy service warned Burgess and
0:57mlan to get out of Britain he denied
1:00that he'd tip them off he thinks that
1:03though he was the Queen's adviser on Art
1:05she was not told that he'd spied for
1:07Russia and he said that giving
1:09information to the Russians was an
1:10appalling mistake but he did not expose
1:13any British agents this is the nub of
1:16his statement today I was persuaded by
1:19Guy Burgess that I could best serve the
1:22cause of anti-fascism by joining him in
1:24his work for the
1:26Russians this was a case of political
1:28conscience against loyalty to Country I
1:31chose
1:33conscience when later I realized the
1:36true facts about Russia I was prevented
1:38from taking any action by personal
1:40loyalty I could not denounce my
1:44friends in
1:461964 an event took place which meant
1:49that I was no longer bound by this
1:51loyalty and being promised immunity I
1:54was relieved to give the authorities all
1:56the information in my
1:58possession from 19 1945 I ceased to pass
2:02information to the Russians but in 1951
2:06I was in contact with them on behalf of
2:08verges I Was Myself pressed to go to
2:11Russia I
2:13refused blunt insisted on several
2:16restrictions at his press conference
2:17which was held in the offices of the
2:19times journalists from the times and the
2:21guardian were the only newspaper men
2:23allowed to interview him their interview
2:25was then made available to the national
2:26news agency of the press Association
2:29blunt gave ITN and the BBC interviews
2:32after he made his statement but
2:33restricted them to 10 minutes each Paul
2:36tilsley spoke to him for ITN and here's
2:38that interview in
2:40full if I could ask you first of all you
2:43it seems that you it's likely you will
2:45lose your fellowship of Trinity College
2:47now and you've already lost your
2:49Knighthood what do you feel about being
2:51plain Mr blunt now I've no objection to
2:54that at all I do very much mind the idea
2:57of losing my fellowship at Trinity
3:00can I ask you who recruited you in the
3:03first place well I've implied I think in
3:06my
3:07statement uh that it was guy verges who
3:10persuaded me to to work and that I think
3:14is an answer to all question isn't it
3:16his guy VES but was he then the master
3:19Talent spotter at Cambridge at that time
3:22no there wasn't one how many people were
3:25recruited at that
3:27time uh at that time
3:30only the three that we know about and
3:33myself did you have a homosexual
3:35relationship with Burgess either Burgess
3:38or mle no absolutely no so the Russians
3:41were not able to use that as lever
3:43against you
3:45no were any lives put at risk during the
3:48war when you were inside MI5 and also
3:50working for the
3:52Russians but o to me yes I think the
3:55answer to that is categorically
3:57no what kind of work were you doing for
4:00the Russians then inside the MI5 um with
4:02the information that I passed to them
4:04was almost exclusively about German
4:07intelligence
4:09Services uh and that was largely
4:14information which again as I said in um
4:16in my statement a lot of people in MI5
4:19thought ought to have been given
4:21officially uh I had in fact no
4:24information about um British none about
4:27British agents at all and I wasn't
4:29connected with that aspect
4:31of with the section of MI5 that would
4:34have been connected with that aspect of
4:35MI6 speak at all and I had no
4:40information um about military defenses
4:43or military um anything to do really
4:47with with the military side and moving a
4:50little later now you say that you did
4:51not in fact tip mlan or Burgess off no
4:56who do you think
4:57did well they knew I don't I think this
5:00story of BS about knowing the exact date
5:04at which mlan was going to be
5:06interviewed is probably a and I don't
5:10think it they knew uh it philby
5:13obviously tipped them off that he was
5:15going to be uh interviewed or
5:18interrogated and very
5:21soon but I had no um I had no contact
5:25with my old colleagues in live5 at that
5:27time nor nor even if I had would they
5:31could I possibly put that kind of
5:33question to them I this would have been
5:35top top secret and I I mean first of all
5:38I couldn't have and second I I didn't
5:41you say you were offered um a trip to
5:45Russia you were you were invited to go
5:46to Russia what form did that offer come
5:48in an order to leave from Russia from
5:53yes why didn't you accept
5:55it because I had by that time totally
5:58disillusioned
6:00and uh well the process of thought that
6:03I remember going through was that I
6:06would rather spend another months even
6:08in danger in England than 10 years in
6:12Russia did your conscience at any time
6:15during the War years bother you the fact
6:17that you were working for two
6:20masters uh during the greater part of
6:22the war of course um I was the two
6:26masters were
6:28allies and and therefore although uh
6:31naturally it was it was a a moral worry
6:34uh it wasn't too
6:36acute how about immediately after the
6:39war well then uh uh I wasn't working for
6:43Russians I mean my my my contact to all
6:46intent and purposes ceased in
6:4845 and it was at that time of course
6:50that I began to realize what an apoling
6:52mistake I
6:54made when you came to confess how many
6:59times did been interviewed up until that
7:01time by the security services I don't
7:03know uh in I as soon as um bertis mle
7:09went uh I was in contact with them and
7:12we had all I can say is a great many
7:14discussions I saw that one newspaper
7:16said I'd been interrogated 11 times well
7:20the number is meaningless to me I
7:22certain I was in close contact with them
7:24why did you confess were you forced to
7:27uh I as I said I suddenly found that uh
7:31my particular problem my particular
7:33problem of loyalty to friends was so to
7:35speak
7:36dissolved so you chose to confess they
7:39did not have evidence against you which
7:40forced that confession uh they had some
7:43evidence which made which this is
7:46something that I unfortunately can't
7:48discuss in detail because it would mean
7:50um revealing what quite definitely
7:53official secet what sort of deal did
7:55they come up with though did they
7:56promise you immunity
7:58yes I just
8:00that were other deals done with other
8:03people at that time that you know about
8:05I can't answer
8:06that were there other men George Young
8:10at the weekend said that uh there were
8:13eight other
8:16people there must have been other people
8:20obviously is the fifth man
8:22dead this story of the fifth man is a
8:25complete mystery to me uh I don't know
8:29the This was um you're referring to bran
8:31s's statement yes I don't know what he
8:34means I haven't had an opportunity of
8:36talking to him about it uh I have
8:39absolutely no idea what he means or who
8:41he's referring to or what his evidence
8:43is but was there fifth man operating in
8:46Washington at that time not that I know
8:48of you mean the the bo old fifth man no
8:52that that was total news to me and I
8:56didn't it I had never heard anything of
8:59that kind
9:00when you made your confession did the
9:02queen
9:03know well this is a question again which
9:06I shall I'm like I would rather not
9:08discuss because my information is so to
9:12speak second if not secondhand is rather
9:14vague um and I can only say that as far
9:17as I was told at the time and later she
9:21was not but I I may be wrong about this
9:24that was what I was told what about
9:26other
9:27ministers I stood and again I'm simply
9:31quoting what I was told at the time uh I
9:33was told that the decision had been made
9:36at the highest
9:37level by which I took it in fact I think
9:40I was to specifically meant the then
9:42prime
9:45minister how you seem to be an
9:46interesting psychological study in that
9:48on one side you were working for the
9:51Russians on the other side you you would
9:53reach an accepted and honored position
9:56and yet you seemed
10:00uh when you say honored the position you
10:01mean I mean both in MI5 and then later
10:05in life with the Royal
10:07household well I um well in the Royal
10:10household of course I had already
10:12totally broken therefore the conflict
10:14was not actual so to speak uh in the
10:17case of MI5 when I joined MI5 my
10:21loyalties were certainly still with the
10:23Russians uh by the time I left it they
10:27were changing
10:29after 1964 you were still working with
10:32and for the royal family how did you
10:35reconcile that with the fact that you
10:36are a
10:38traitor simply um you may say this is
10:41schizophrenic um but I felt that I was
10:45I'd been given a job to do and I felt I
10:48could go on doing it for the raw
10:52collection how do you feel about being
10:54called a traitor
10:56now I can't deny it do you feel feel
10:59like a traitor do you feel you have
11:00betrayed Britain I feel that I haven't
11:03betrayed my conscience what do you mean
11:05by that I mean that I originally I I
11:09realized I made an appalling mistake but
11:12I uh acted according to my conscience in
11:14during this in 19 whenever it was 35
11:1836 uh and that meant disloyalty to this
11:22country but as I've said it was I
11:25believed it was the right thing in the
11:27cause of anti-fascism
11:29I now realized bitterly this was totally
11:32wrong so you do have regrets oh yes
11:37bitter what will you do
11:40now I hope to be able to go back and do
11:42some work on our
11:44history although Mr brunt said to ITN in
11:46that interview that there were no major
11:48Talent spotters at Cambridge when he was
11:50recruited he said in a later interview
11:52with the times that Talent spotting was
11:54the only thing he did at that time but
11:57he said he couldn't reveal how many
11:59Cambridge Men He spotted because of the
12:01official Secrets act the Attorney
12:03General Sir Michael havers told the
12:05commons tonight that apart from Anthony
12:06blunt the authorities have tried to get
12:08information from other suspected spies
12:10by offering inducements in a few cases
12:14in a guarded answer to a written
12:16question from Mr Dennis Skinner so
12:18Michel said it would not be in the
12:19public interest to give details he said
12:22that the offer of inducements whether
12:24accepted or not may have meant that any
12:26confessions couldn't be used in criminal
12:28proceedings against the suspects Sir
12:30Michael did not make it clear whether
12:32any spies did confess and are now safe
12:34from prosecution like Mr blunt or
12:37whether the authorities failed to learn
12:39anything a former deputy head of MI6 Mr
12:42George Young watched the blunt interview
12:44with ITN and afterwards Paul tilsley
12:47asked him how he interpreted it well I
12:50felt the whole occasion was really um as
12:54befits an art historian uh very
12:57Tastefully arranged sackcloth and Ash's
13:00act um perhaps that's a little unfair
13:03but I didn't feel there was much of a
13:04thread of sincerity running through it
13:07and of course certain question marks I
13:09accept that his statement is written so
13:11to speak under orders and probably very
13:13carefully checked first by five and then
13:15by the cabinet office but there are
13:17still certain
13:18ambiguities let's take a few of the
13:20points that blunt made to us in his
13:23interview first of all do you think that
13:25uh Burgess did recruit him that is quite
13:28possible uh but is uh struck me I met
13:32him as a person with much more
13:33initiative and goal as against the
13:36somewhat languid um historian and I
13:39should think it was guy who put the idea
13:40in his head but it's been thought up
13:42until now that blunt was the talent
13:44scout for spies can we rule out now
13:48totally that that blunt was a talent
13:50scout no no I don't think so and what's
13:53more he's rather vague on these
13:55particular points he says there were
13:57just the three of us the other and
13:59myself well how did he know that unless
14:02he was rather fully aware of the
14:03complete effort I would have thought
14:06that he his job must have been to keep
14:07his eyes and ears open on behalf of the
14:09Russians for likely talent that doesn't
14:12necess mean to say that uh uh Russian
14:15Intelligence Officers was directing him
14:17in each stage but I would have thought
14:19that was his main task now let's look at
14:22his War activities he plays down what he
14:24did in the war for Russia saying that
14:26really it was all anti-german anyway do
14:28you believe him
14:29well it's uh spies under confession
14:32always say what I passed was of little
14:34value it's an old Gambit which they
14:37always do and um what his conscience
14:40doesn't seem to have been troubled by
14:43was the fact that the Russians were the
14:45allies of the Germans from the outbreak
14:47of War right up to June 1941 they were
14:50selling the Russians War materials they
14:54were assisting them in their General
14:58Industrial effort uh they even as you
15:00know turned over German Communists to
15:04the gapo at their Frontier after the
15:06Polish campaign was over uh so I'm not
15:09quite sure how he squares
15:12that he also says that philby tipped
15:15Burgess and mlan off that uh that the
15:18British were on to them rather than
15:21blunt yes this uh is probably true if he
15:25says that and said it quite definitely
15:27philby told me himself of course that he
15:29had given guy Burgess a tip in the sense
15:33he said I did it because he was a friend
15:34of mine and I simply said guy watch your
15:36step other otherwise you might get into
15:39trouble but it may be that philby did
15:42more than that we're not quite sure
15:44about it uh I would like uh to draw
15:47attention to Mrs Thatcher's statement
15:48the other day where she said very
15:50definitely that he assisted in The
15:52Escape of mlan and burgers and that
15:55statement was very carefully prepared
15:56for her by the security service so um
15:59I'm not quite clear at least I not quite
16:02satisfied with what blunt said this
16:05morning he says that uh he was able to
16:09confess because a particular problem was
16:12out of the way by 1964 what does he mean
16:15by that does he mean that Phil had
16:16managed to escape to Russia by then or
16:18that Burgess was dead or something else
16:20that somebody else had died well filby
16:23had gone quite a year or so ahead I
16:25think and burges died in' 63
16:30um but it is quite clear and he admits
16:32that himself that evidence was piling up
16:35so I'm a little skeptical about the idea
16:37that some particular event occurred
16:40there were of course u a number of
16:42deaths amongst former security Personnel
16:44at that time uh we were all getting on
16:47in years and U people begin to sort of
16:50drop off after the age of 50 and it may
16:53be that some other friend died who was
16:55perhaps involved with him in uh as a
16:59group so that if he u u he may have felt
17:03clear then to confess since he wasn't
17:06compromising somebody else but you say
17:09there were a number of deaths among
17:10security men at that time people working
17:12in the security service were they under
17:15suspicion at the time any of these
17:16people I don't know to be quite honest I
17:19would be wrong to point a finger at
17:21somebody even if he's dead so to speak I
17:24would draw attention to the fact that um
17:26blunt said he was ordered by the
17:27Russians to leave there's only one
17:30conclusion to draw from that of course
17:32that uh he could have compromised other
17:34people who had not at that time been
17:36flushed and the Russians wanted to get
17:38him out so there were
17:42others we'll take our first break there
17:44in this extended News at 10

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