'Son of Sam' (David Berkowitz) Full Jailhouse Interview — Transcript

Full transcript

1. 0:02Now you said that you believe that God
2. 0:04has forgiven you.
3. 0:05Yes.
4. 0:17Do you still keep in touch uh with your
5. 0:20dad?
6. 0:21Yes.
7. 0:24Uh without getting too personal, uh
8. 0:26how's he doing?
9. 0:27He's doing fine.
10. 0:29But he asked me not to talk about him.
11. 0:31I understand. That's what I said.
12. 0:32Safeguard his privacy and privacy of his
13. 0:34family.
14. 0:36Okay.
15. 0:38In terms of the correspondence you carry
16. 0:41on with the different people and
17. 0:43different ministry people and so on so
18. 0:44forth. What's your mail flow like around
19. 0:47here? And I don't mean recently.
20. 0:50It's been a lot.
21. 0:52Been a lot. Uh
22. 0:55I don't make a big deal of it. I just
23. 0:57consider it as part of my life now. Part
24. 0:59of in a sense part of my ministry. Uh I
25. 1:02get letters from people from all walks
26. 1:04of life. Most people are sincere. Some
27. 1:06are having, you know, very serious
28. 1:07problems. And for whatever reasons, God
29. 1:10I believe leads them to me. And I'm able
30. 1:13to minister to them and uh encourage
31. 1:16them, share Christian gospel with them,
32. 1:20even some teenagers. And so it's uh been
33. 1:23good. It's
34. 1:24sort of ironic, isn't it? I mean, you're
35. 1:26deal doing all this stuff through the
36. 1:28mail these days. You keep the post
37. 1:29office busy. What's that? A little nod
38. 1:31of loyalty to your old employer. You
39. 1:33know, once a postman, always a postman.
40. 1:37Is this is this does this all this work
41. 1:40that you're doing now, do you feel that
42. 1:42this is helping you make up for some of
43. 1:45the bad stuff that you were involved in?
44. 1:48Do you feel like you're paying back a
45. 1:49little bit? Yeah, I uh
46. 1:53these things I I
47. 1:56first of all I want to be a good
48. 1:57Christian because I want to please the
49. 1:59Lord. But it's my way of saying that I'm
50. 2:01sorry for the things that happened in
51. 2:03the past and uh I'm sorry for uh
52. 2:07you know being that that bad person and
53. 2:10being a fool and uh this is my way of if
54. 2:13I could reach out to some young person
55. 2:16and through the videos and so forth that
56. 2:19are going all over the place in schools
57. 2:20and churches uh youth facilities prisons
58. 2:24I know that if I if I reach some of them
59. 2:26with that warning that you don't want to
60. 2:28come to prison that you don't want to
61. 2:29throw your life away that that that you
62. 2:32could have a better life through Jesus
63. 2:33Christ. If if somehow I could touch
64. 2:35touch some of them and get them to
65. 2:37change their direction, then it would
66. 2:39have served a purpose. I I really
67. 2:41believe with all my heart that uh the
68. 2:44message that I'm sharing today through
69. 2:45the written pamphlets or through the
70. 2:47videos have actually saved a lot of
71. 2:50lives and and there's ministers to
72. 2:51verify that where they're kids or
73. 2:53whatever who've heard that message and
74. 2:55have instead of going in the path that
75. 2:59they were going which may have led
76. 3:01eventually to a graveyard, an early
77. 3:03grave, they've given their life to
78. 3:05Christ instead. And they're better
79. 3:06people today because of it. And so I'm
80. 3:09thankful for that. That's truly a
81. 3:11blessing. And that's not me doing that.
82. 3:14I believe it's God. God works through
83. 3:16people, ordinary people. Let me ask you
84. 3:19something. Be prison of course is for
85. 3:22punishment, but it's for something else,
86. 3:24too. Rehabilitation.
87. 3:26Is that correct?
88. 3:29The purpose of prison. I mean, people
89. 3:30get sent to prison for punishment. But
90. 3:32isn't a fact that prison systems also
91. 3:35like to rehabilitate people if they can?
92. 3:38I guess you could say that. Yeah,
93. 3:40certainly. Uh uh you want they want
94. 3:43someone to learn their lesson where they
95. 3:44don't come back to a place like this and
96. 3:47don't throw their life away and hurt
97. 3:49some other lives and damage other
98. 3:51people. You know, you would hope that
99. 3:53someone would come to prison and, you
100. 3:55know, if they do get out, they would
101. 3:56learn their lesson. And but I feel that
102. 3:59for what I see more than that is prison
103. 4:02is is a place of reflection and
104. 4:05self-examination where a man is forced
105. 4:07to come to terms with himself. You know,
106. 4:09you take a guy that's 30 years old, 40
107. 4:11years old, maybe he's got a couple of
108. 4:13kids out there, maybe a wife, maybe he's
109. 4:15with her, maybe he's not. But here's a
110. 4:17guy that's an adult and he's in prison
111. 4:20doing time 5 years, 10 years, 15 years
112. 4:22and more. There come there has, you
113. 4:24know, it's like a point of reality where
114. 4:26you got to face yourself and say, man,
115. 4:27what what am I doing with my life? What
116. 4:29am I what am I doing? Where am I going?
117. 4:31What's my goal? What's my direction? And
118. 4:35I think that being in prison now 22
119. 4:37years, I've seen a lot of men uh come to
120. 4:40terms with that where they realize that
121. 4:42they at at some certain point they
122. 4:44realize that they were doing like
123. 4:47traveling a dead end, traveling a road
124. 4:49to destruction. And that's where like in
125. 4:51here the chapel has been such a blessing
126. 4:54where we have a chaplain that you know
127. 4:56ministers to the men and we have a a
128. 4:58place where guys go for nurturing and
129. 5:00encouragement.
130. 5:03to you. Um,
131. 5:05speaking of punishment, I mean, the the
132. 5:10death penalty wasn't in effect in New
133. 5:12York when all of the 44 incidents went
134. 5:15down,
135. 5:16you know, if you if you even for your
136. 5:19role in it um had had you have felt if
137. 5:23the death penalty was still around then
138. 5:24or was around then, did you care at that
139. 5:28point?
140. 5:29There was a time when I had given up
141. 5:31hope. I was I feel so far under satanic
142. 5:35power and satanic control that I didn't
143. 5:37care. I was more like a robot than a
144. 5:40person. There was a time in my life when
145. 5:41I feel that I was just utterly under a a
146. 5:45a powerful influence that was
147. 5:47destructive and and I didn't care if I
148. 5:50It was a point where I didn't care if I
149. 5:51lived or died.
150. 5:53How did these people get such control
151. 5:55over you?
152. 5:56It it was a process. It took uh time. It
153. 6:00was like little by little. I I mean, I'm
154. 6:02telling you, I didn't know it was going
155. 6:03to come this way. I mean, when I got out
156. 6:05of the service, I wanted to make a life
157. 6:06for myself. My dad was moving to
158. 6:09Florida. Most of my friends had guess
159. 6:11all gone or all changed directions in
160. 6:13their life. And I I just wanted to make
161. 6:15a life for myself. I got an apartment. I
162. 6:18had saved up in when I was in the
163. 6:19service enough money to buy a used car
164. 6:22to rent an apartment. I got a job as a
165. 6:24security guard. I I enrolled in Bronx
166. 6:26Community College. I I wanted to have a
167. 6:28future, you know, and I I don't know,
168. 6:30everything got turned upside down. I I
169. 6:34it just uh I had good goals and uh I
170. 6:38just fell into some under some kind of
171. 6:41powerful influence. I mean,
172. 6:46you were a middle class guy, middle
173. 6:49class, family is middle class, you were
174. 6:50middle class. Now based on what I
175. 6:54understand
176. 6:56there were some people involved in this
177. 6:58circle if you will. There were some
178. 7:00money people there were some influential
179. 7:02people high rollers. So you saw some of
180. 7:05the high life so to speak right I mean
181. 7:07you think that had some of it too you
182. 7:09say wow these rich people are out doing
183. 7:10this so it can't be all that bad.
184. 7:15I don't know. I just kind of fell into
185. 7:17the flow of things and uh I never really
186. 7:19looked at it or analyzed that of their
187. 7:22lifestyle.
188. 7:23Yeah. But you
189. 7:24just accepted it. I I didn't I didn't
190. 7:27really want that. See, to me, I was
191. 7:29always content to I money or that kind
192. 7:32of thing never really impressed me. I
193. 7:34was just a I was just content to maybe
194. 7:36have a job, raise a family, live in the
195. 7:38suburbs one day. That was my goals in
196. 7:40life. wasn't to be a millionaire or big
197. 7:43ride around in a big car and those
198. 7:45material things just never really
199. 7:47impressed me. There were people that had
200. 7:48that and you know I just didn't think
201. 7:51one way or the other.
202. 7:52Okay, that's what I was getting at
203. 7:53because if I recall correctly, you were
204. 7:55at parties in the Hamptons and in
205. 7:56Greenwich, Connecticut and some big
206. 7:58places in Manhattan and Westchester
207. 7:59County and you saw some of these people
208. 8:01with some bucks. I mean, I was trying to
209. 8:03find out if that was part of the thing
210. 8:05that helped entice you into this saying,
211. 8:06"Wow, these people are into this and
212. 8:08look at all they got." No, I was just
213. 8:10mainly a tag along guy and just didn't
214. 8:13really get impressed with that.
215. 8:19This is this is a very valid issue. This
216. 8:21we've talked about in the past and this
217. 8:23is that there was a great deal made of
218. 8:25the fact that in uh n around Mother's
219. 8:29Day of 1975,
220. 8:31you finally found your natural mother.
221. 8:35Yes. And there was one psychiatrist in
222. 8:37particular who would later say that this
223. 8:39is what pushed Burkowitz over the edge.
224. 8:41He was so filled with rage because he
225. 8:43had met his natural mother and she was a
226. 8:45disappointment etc etc. Can you would
227. 8:47you respond to that?
228. 8:49Yeah, I did um
229. 8:51find my natural mother. It was something
230. 8:53that I just had in my heart to do. who I
231. 8:56had come across some literature from the
232. 8:58adoptes liberty movement and uh this was
233. 9:01back in early 75 or or somewhere around
234. 9:0574 and I just suddenly had this urge to
235. 9:08go see if I can possibly find my uh
236. 9:11natural parents because I was always
237. 9:13curious. It was always like a driving
238. 9:14thing. And to make a long story short, I
239. 9:17did meet, as you said, it was in 75. I
240. 9:20even lost track of the time. I did meet
241. 9:22my natural mother and she turned out to
242. 9:24be a very nice person. We got along
243. 9:26really good. Typical Jewish mother and I
244. 9:29found out I had a halfsister and we
245. 9:31really kind of hit it off pretty good.
246. 9:33Uh I started to go over to their house
247. 9:35all the time. I was out in uh where my
248. 9:38sister lived in Queens. She's long since
249. 9:41moved away. Uh my mom had lived out in
250. 9:44uh Brooklyn just briefly and then moved
251. 9:46to Long Island to Atlantic uh what's it
252. 9:50Long Beach and I was over there at her
253. 9:52house a number of times. We had a fine
254. 9:54relationship and she used to cook meals
255. 9:56and it was totally false that I had any
256. 9:59rage or animosity towards her. uh
257. 10:03that was I feel that at that time with
258. 10:07that uh psychologist he was mainly and
259. 10:10this is not a criticism but look you
260. 10:12know just looking back it's he was
261. 10:13mainly interested in um fitting me into
262. 10:16these different molds that he already
263. 10:19had you know as a Freudian psychologist
264. 10:22he had these certain molds you have to
265. 10:24go into it always reverts back to the
266. 10:26childhood the mother a bad relationship
267. 10:29but uh that's was completely false.
268. 10:32Which brings something to mind.
269. 10:34Somebody, not you, told me a long time
270. 10:36ago that you had actually read a book
271. 10:38called The Murdering Mind to be familiar
272. 10:40with some of the psychology of this kind
273. 10:42of stuff so that you could give the
274. 10:44right answers to shrinks.
275. 10:46Yeah, that's true. Yeah,
276. 10:49it's true.
277. 10:50Yeah.
278. 10:51So, are you saying you were just paring
279. 10:53back to them what you thought they
280. 10:54wanted to hear?
281. 10:55Yeah. Yeah. But there was a whole reason
282. 10:57for that, too. It's it's it's such a
283. 10:59long story. It was that McGroill thing
284. 11:02with Mr. Clausner and all the stuff that
285. 11:04resulted from that. I had felt really
286. 11:06betrayed by the attorneys and it's no
287. 11:09big deal at that time. I was in a really
288. 11:11depressed and frame of mind just coming
289. 11:14into prison and you know just facing
290. 11:18everything. It was just so overwhelming.
291. 11:19And then when I found out that the
292. 11:21attorneys that represented me had been
293. 11:24working out a deal to write a book with
294. 11:25this guy and eventually a book was
295. 11:27published uh by Mcgro Hill which did I
296. 11:30think it didn't do well. It kind of
297. 11:31bombed but anyway
298. 11:34at that time when I found out that was
299. 11:36coming out I I contacted Mr. Abrahamson
300. 11:39Dr. Abrahamson and kind of pretty much
301. 11:42told him what he wanted to hear you know
302. 11:44and but that was foolish. I mean at the
303. 11:46time I was just handling everything the
304. 11:48wrong way and at that time I was a you
305. 11:51know depressed and suicidal in prison
306. 11:53and you know I just at that time were
307. 11:56you still uh involved in the occult.
308. 12:00I used to practice at in the very
309. 12:02beginning like rituals in my cell and
310. 12:04everything. It was stupid. It was
311. 12:05stupid.
312. 12:06Yeah. We're talking about then not now
313. 12:08but yeah it was Yeah. So when you first
314. 12:12came to prison and for the a period of
315. 12:14time you were actually doing your own
316. 12:16private rituals in yourselves
317. 12:18briefly. Yeah. Yeah. And uh I mean I I
318. 12:24just
319. 12:26I was locked into a certain way of
320. 12:27thinking. It's it's just impossible to
321. 12:29explain and I really hesitate to talk
322. 12:31about it because sometimes it's just so
323. 12:33taken out of context and misunderstood.
324. 12:35But I was just into a type of thinking
325. 12:37which I believe that later on in life
326. 12:40Christ had completely set me free from.
327. 12:43And if it wasn't for uh my faith in
328. 12:46Christ, if it wasn't for that other
329. 12:47inmate reaching out to me one day and
330. 12:49beginning to share his faith with me and
331. 12:51bring me along that path, I probably
332. 12:53would be just uh a miserable, lonely
333. 12:56individual now, just caught up in my own
334. 12:58world
335. 12:58or in the ground.
336. 13:00Or in the Yeah, I believe God spared my
337. 13:02life. I don't know why I there's so many
338. 13:04times and I'm talking to the Lord when I
339. 13:06say my prayer say why God why why did
340. 13:08you spare my life and u he just keeps
341. 13:12reassuring me that he loves me and that
342. 13:14uh things are going to be okay
343. 13:15now isn't it so that a substantial
344. 13:19number of people whom you were
345. 13:21associated with on the streets back in
346. 13:2276 and 77 are in the ground
347. 13:26that's what I've heard I you know I
348. 13:28don't know how accurate all that is I
349. 13:30know that the car brothers and off lost
350. 13:33their lives shortly after I was
351. 13:35arrested.
352. 13:37What exactly exactly transpired? I don't
353. 13:40know. There's been a lot.
354. 13:41Young girls like Dawn Coons and uh and
355. 13:44Frank Well, Frank Signarelli died in
356. 13:46jail and Joe Krosza who had the yacht in
357. 13:49New Relle.
358. 13:50Yeah.
359. 13:50And so on and so forth. I mean, there's
360. 13:52a laundry list of uh of of people
361. 13:55who died violently either murder,
362. 13:58accidents, overdoses, suicides. Yeah.
363. 14:03That's uh what happens when this is why
364. 14:06I try so fervently to to reach people
365. 14:09with the gospel because I know what
366. 14:11Satan can do to a person. Uh Satan can
367. 14:14utterly destroy a life a human life and
368. 14:17uh just as the Bible says that Satan
369. 14:19comes to steal, kill and destroy, but
370. 14:21that Christ comes to give an abundant
371. 14:23life. And if people dabble in things, if
372. 14:25they follow that that path that I was
373. 14:28on, eventually uh they can end up
374. 14:31destroying themselves because there are
375. 14:33powers behind the scenes. I know the
376. 14:35people, many people say, "Oh, Bahamug, I
377. 14:37don't believe that stuff." Well, it's
378. 14:38true whether people believe it or not.
379. 14:40It's reality. There are powers, entities
380. 14:43that people get involved with that could
381. 14:47twist a person's mind, ultimately
382. 14:49destroy that person's life.
383. 14:51Do you remember Jimmy Khan? Not the
384. 14:53actor.
385. 14:54Yes.
386. 14:55The one who lived in your building.
387. 14:56Yeah.
388. 14:58After you got arrested, you know, Khan
389. 15:01was went up to his job trying to get a
390. 15:03gun
391. 15:04because he said people were now after
392. 15:06him.
393. 15:07Now Khan was involved in this case at
394. 15:11least in terms of Undermire Park.
395. 15:13Yeah.
396. 15:13Not at crime scenes. And he drove the
397. 15:15yellow VW once in a while. Well, Khan is
398. 15:18the latest one. I don't know if you're
399. 15:19aware this, but Khan committed suicide.
400. 15:22uh a Brown last Thanksgiving.
401. 15:25So for the record, it's up to that we
402. 15:29know of about 21 people uh who were
403. 15:33associates of yours in one way or
404. 15:35another uh on the wrong side of this
405. 15:37case have have died since your arrest
406. 15:39and only one of them uh whose name we
407. 15:42know, Mr. D, uh died of natural causes
408. 15:45and he was elderly. All the others are
409. 15:47young and uh unnatural causes.
410. 15:51Does that say anything to you about uh
411. 15:53about all this?
412. 15:57Yeah. That the devil means business.
413. 16:02It doesn't play. I that's what I've been
414. 16:04sharing in my testimony
415. 16:06uh time and time again that the devil
416. 16:09does not play. And uh person follows him
417. 16:13or serves him uh they're throwing their
418. 16:17life away. They don't know what they're
419. 16:18getting into. what what could start out
420. 16:20as dabbling could ultimately leave lead
421. 16:22to total possession. I I've seen it in
422. 16:25the past. I know what happened to me and
423. 16:27I hesitate to share these things in in
424. 16:29the public because it just sounds so
425. 16:32unbelievable. People really can't accept
426. 16:33that. They don't really understand or my
427. 16:36words get twisted. It's been a real
428. 16:38uphill battle to even share. uh but uh
429. 16:41mainly today I just see that my calling
430. 16:44in life and I feel is my calling is to
431. 16:46share the good news of Jesus Christ and
432. 16:49and to reach as many with that message
433. 16:51of hope as possible. I mean, even in
434. 16:53other countries today, you know, the
435. 16:56videos are going into the Philippines,
436. 16:58into Russia, translated in different
437. 17:00languages, Romania, in Romania. And I
438. 17:04mean, I have to look at that and say,
439. 17:06well, I can't do anything about the
440. 17:07past. I made wrong choices. I did
441. 17:10foolish things. I threw my life away. I
442. 17:12hurt other people and destroyed their
443. 17:14lives. And I'm sorry for that. Uh, I
444. 17:17can't change the past anymore. If I only
445. 17:19knew what I was getting into at the
446. 17:21beginning, as I said, I would have just
447. 17:22ran away.
448. 17:24But uh
449. 17:25rejoin the army. Yeah, that would have
450. 17:27even to that.
451. 17:29As I said, when I left the service, I
452. 17:30was all ready to begin a new life. I had
453. 17:32bought a stereo expensive stereo system,
454. 17:35a sansui stereo system overseas where
455. 17:39the rates were cheap. I had it shipped
456. 17:41to, you know, United States. I got my
457. 17:42own apartment, my own car. I saved up
458. 17:44money when I was in the service. I I
459. 17:46enrolled in the Bronx Community College.
460. 17:48I got a part-time job. I was going to
461. 17:51school under the GI Bill. I I thought I
462. 17:53had a future, you know, and then
463. 17:55everything just flipped around. I
464. 17:59I didn't think I'd ever end up in a
465. 18:00place like this.
466. 18:03It's the cat skills. What are the Jewish
467. 18:05comedians going to be?
468. 18:06Why?
469. 18:08I've got I've just
470. 18:09Why do you think Go ahead, Lisa. Um, in
471. 18:11terms of, you know, you said you had a
472. 18:14dream, you know, to have the typical,
473. 18:16you know, somebody growing up in the
474. 18:1750s, the wife, the kids, the suburbs.
475. 18:19Wondering if more, have you had any kind
476. 18:22of a romantic relationship with anyone,
477. 18:25maybe somebody whose heart was drawn to
478. 18:27you when they began writing to you? I
479. 18:28know that happens.
480. 18:29That's an interesting human interest
481. 18:31kind of question.
482. 18:33uh some of uh uh let's say female
483. 18:36friends over the years without names
484. 18:38just in general who you've corresponded
485. 18:40with you know just you know
486. 18:41you've developed some female friends is
487. 18:43that correct? Uh, well, I wouldn't say
488. 18:46like that like really romantic. I do
489. 18:49have, but this is off the record. I
490. 18:50think I do have because I want to
491. 18:52protect the privacy. I learned to this
492. 18:54is this is my life. This is going to be
493. 18:55the rest of my life. And I but it it
494. 18:58it's hard to describe it. It doesn't
495. 19:00bother me anymore because I I've God has
496. 19:02given me peace about it. And uh
497. 19:06I can accept, you know, this is as kind
498. 19:08of where I am, where I'll be. People get
499. 19:12married even with life even with
500. 19:14consecutive life.
501. 19:15Yeah, they do.
502. 19:16Eric Menendez got married behind bars.
503. 19:20The uh
504. 19:23So no marriage plan at all.
505. 19:25No, no marriage plan.
506. 19:27At least not at the moment.
507. 19:28No,
508. 19:29you know uh
509. 19:33if I can let me see if I can get this
510. 19:35this idea right that Lisa had talked
511. 19:37about before. It's it's the idea that
512. 19:39there are as many the authorities say
513. 19:42that there are as many as perhaps 50
514. 19:44serial killers going around America at
515. 19:45one time. And um I mean from somebody
516. 19:50from the point of view of somebody who
517. 19:51had been involved in something like
518. 19:53that, granted not by yourself. I mean is
519. 19:56there something that the authority
520. 19:58should do or people should be on the
521. 20:00lookout for as a way to help identify
522. 20:02this kind of thing? This kind of thing?
523. 20:05You know, I'm not really an expert on
524. 20:08that.
525. 20:10People, those people come from all walks
526. 20:12of life. There's a lot of See, the way I
527. 20:14look at it, I look at it from the eyes
528. 20:16of a person like who's like a minister
529. 20:19today. And I I see that there's just a
530. 20:21lot of hurting people out there, a lot
531. 20:23of confused, lonely, troubled people.
532. 20:26And uh a lot of angry people, a lot of
533. 20:29tormented people. And uh that's why you
534. 20:34know as a Christian I I try to reach as
535. 20:36many as I can because I believe with all
536. 20:38my heart that it's it's a personal
537. 20:39relationship with God that can give a
538. 20:41person hope that can give a person
539. 20:43meaning in life. I don't know what
540. 20:45causes that kind of behavior. I really
541. 20:47don't know what understand it at all.
542. 20:49So you're not auditioning for the job as
543. 20:51host of America's Most Wanted. No.
544. 20:54No. What I mean? I mean, it's more the
545. 20:57concept in terms of
546. 21:01how should a person know if there's
547. 21:03someone who needs help so badly, who's
548. 21:05so troubled that they're going to cross
549. 21:07that line and commit murder?
550. 21:09Yeah.
551. 21:11What advice would you give to someone to
552. 21:13look out for so that maybe they could
553. 21:14get someone to help them?
554. 21:15Family members, friends. Uh,
555. 21:18wow. That's uh
556. 21:19cuz that's something you would know from
557. 21:20ministering to people cuz you've seen
558. 21:22the people who need the help so badly.
559. 21:24What are those symptoms? You could tell
560. 21:25more.
561. 21:27Uh
562. 21:29wow. Take the time.
563. 21:32You were one of them. You could reach
564. 21:33into your own pastor or Yeah.
565. 21:35any other person that you've met in this
566. 21:38environment when I'm sure there were
567. 21:39plenty.
568. 21:40Yeah.
569. 21:41Well, I think I think that uh what
570. 21:44people need is is closeness in in
571. 21:47society today, people so far apart and
572. 21:50even in families. So many families are
573. 21:54broken, broken homes. And I don't mean
574. 21:56just the broken homes in the sense that
575. 21:58maybe dad's in prison or mom and dad are
576. 22:01separated or something like that. But
577. 22:03sometimes the family could be in like
578. 22:06all under the same roof. Mom and dad and
579. 22:09the kids and yet the home can still be
580. 22:10broken because people are not
581. 22:12communicating there. There's no real
582. 22:14bonding. There's there's no deeper love.
583. 22:17Sometimes even in one's own home there
584. 22:20could be strangers. Uh I think it's so
585. 22:23important for people to communicate and
586. 22:25to spend time with one another in a
587. 22:27family unit as much as possible. I know
588. 22:30that for example in the incident in
589. 22:32Coline, uh those kids had parents and
590. 22:35they were from homes that on all
591. 22:38purposes seemed to be stable and and so
592. 22:41forth. And yet some ways you look at
593. 22:43that and yet there was within the home
594. 22:45there was a broken relationship. And it
595. 22:48seemed like those parents really didn't
596. 22:50have an understanding of how far into
597. 22:55let's say just use the word evil those
598. 22:58kids had fallen. And the parents seem to
599. 23:02be from what I understand just kind of
600. 23:03oblivious to that. My heart goes out to
601. 23:05them because I'm sure they must be
602. 23:06struggling with that very much asking
603. 23:08themselves a lot of questions. Why? Why?
604. 23:11But I I can see that there's a need for
605. 23:14people to be closer and uh to know one
606. 23:17another better and and
607. 23:21so so what signs then would those
608. 23:23parents have had to see have seen?
609. 23:25That's you know what is it that you
610. 23:27would see in someone that would say to
611. 23:29you, "Aha, the light bulb goes off on
612. 23:31top of your head. That person's about to
613. 23:33blow up the high school or that person's
614. 23:35about to,
615. 23:36you know, shoot people." What is it that
616. 23:38you would recognize in another human
617. 23:40being that would tip you off so that you
618. 23:42could say, "Jesus, I've got to help this
619. 23:44person." You know, that's the kind of
620. 23:46thing I'm just curious about.
621. 23:47Okay. Okay.
622. 23:52Well, I think that uh sometimes with
623. 23:55like let's say teenagers or young
624. 23:57adults, there's an obsession with death.
625. 24:00There is a uh a sense of loneliness, a
626. 24:04sense of hopelessness,
627. 24:06a sense of despair. I think that a
628. 24:08person that's going through some kind of
629. 24:10self-destructive or destructive thoughts
630. 24:13kinds of kind of isolates themselves
631. 24:15from others. And and if a person's in a
632. 24:19home with somebody, they see them
633. 24:20becoming detached, remote, aloof, this
634. 24:24may be a time to just kind of reach out
635. 24:25there. It's like, "Hey, what's going on
636. 24:27with your life? If I see you're
637. 24:28struggling with something, uh, what's on
638. 24:31your mind? Let's let's share. Let's
639. 24:32let's open up a little bit. A lot of
640. 24:34times, uh, people just need someone to
641. 24:37really talk to, someone to spend time
642. 24:39with them, a friend or a friend or a
643. 24:41family member that's going to stick
644. 24:42close with them. And, uh, when these
645. 24:45things are not there, people get into,
646. 24:46it's so easy to get into their own frame
647. 24:48of mind and their world becomes real
648. 24:51small and they don't see the whole
649. 24:54picture. They begin to just dwell on
650. 24:55their own problems, their own anger,
651. 24:58their own frustrations in life, and
652. 25:00those things begin to percolate inside
653. 25:02of a person, build up, and and next
654. 25:05thing you know, you have some kind of
655. 25:06rage, anger, something like that. Uh,
656. 25:11I see that people need to know that
657. 25:14there's a God, that there's a God that
658. 25:16cares about them, that there's a God
659. 25:19that has a a place in life for them. I
660. 25:22think in here I know a lot of guys feel
661. 25:24very maybe insignificant in the world or
662. 25:28so forth but um I don't see that way
663. 25:31myself that way anymore. I see myself as
664. 25:33a person who has uh a purpose in life. I
665. 25:36get up in the morning with a sense of
666. 25:38purpose as a Christian. Well, I'm going
667. 25:40to do the best I can to share with
668. 25:42somebody today, to reach out to somebody
669. 25:44today, to encourage them. Uh you know,
670. 25:47without those things, I I just don't see
671. 25:49how people can make it in this world.
672. 25:51People try to lose themselves in all
673. 25:53kinds of of things. And I I when a
674. 25:55person begins to become uh aloof, that's
675. 25:59usually a sign that they're going
676. 26:00through something.
677. 26:02Well, don't you think people withdraw
678. 26:03too? I mean, there's different forms of
679. 26:05withdrawal. I mean, you can withdraw
680. 26:06into TV, into the internet, into drugs,
681. 26:09into alcohol.
682. 26:10Yeah.
683. 26:11Yeah.
684. 26:15I mean, not in here. Nobody hears on
685. 26:17drugs, alcohol, or on the internet. And
686. 26:19they're certainly not watching too much
687. 26:20TV. I don't think
688. 26:26it's just another one of the things of
689. 26:28the case. You know how myths travel on
690. 26:31and on about this brown-haired girls and
691. 26:33and all that. Was there anything to
692. 26:35that?
693. 26:36No.
694. 26:40Okay. And I just, you know, in terms of
695. 26:43just reaching back to
696. 26:46your lowest point because you've come so
697. 26:48far from so low, if you could
698. 26:51try to talk a little bit of just
699. 26:54comparing how you felt. If you could
700. 26:56just reach into your heart and try to
701. 26:58talk a little bit about feeling like you
702. 27:00were in the depths of that moment where
703. 27:02suicide was clearly something that would
704. 27:04have been an option. Right now, it's the
705. 27:06last thing that you would consider
706. 27:07because you have a purpose and I'd love
707. 27:09you to
708. 27:09that. Yeah, that's that's I think that's
709. 27:11a very reasonable question too, Dave.
710. 27:13That's one we tried earlier and you
711. 27:14didn't want to talk about. I just asked
712. 27:15you if you could contrast or compare the
713. 27:18David Burkowitz of 1977 to the David
714. 27:20Burkitz today.
715. 27:23the difference.
716. 27:25Uh the David Burkowitz of the past
717. 27:30was a very uh guy living without a lot
718. 27:32of without any hope and uh was a very u
719. 27:38troubled and tormented person. I was a I
720. 27:42believe that I was a demonpossessed
721. 27:44and the reason is because I allowed
722. 27:47Satan to enter into me and through
723. 27:49rituals and incantations and other
724. 27:51stupid things. I look back at that and
725. 27:53say, man, that was garbage. I was an
726. 27:55idiot to even do those things. But I
727. 27:58didn't think it was going to end in
728. 28:00destruction of others and even throwing
729. 28:03my own life away. But today, thanks to
730. 28:06Christ, I mean,
731. 28:08I today I'm living with hope. I know
732. 28:11that God has forgiven me even though
733. 28:13others may never forgive me. And I have
734. 28:16peace with God. I have peace peace with
735. 28:18myself. I have uh joy. I have a future
736. 28:23and uh
737. 28:25I believe that Christ is coming soon and
738. 28:27one day I'm going to be with him one
739. 28:29day. You know that's the one of the
740. 28:31tenants of the Christian faith is that
741. 28:33Christ will come again and when that
742. 28:35happens in instant of an eye I'll be up
743. 28:39in heaven with him and that's a hope
744. 28:41that uh millions of Christians have. I
745. 28:43live with that hope and I face the
746. 28:45future looking forward to being a good
747. 28:50being the best I can be as a person and
748. 28:52uh trying to touch as many lives as
749. 28:54possible trying to reach out to as many
750. 28:56as possible in the time I have left
751. 28:58however long that may be.
752. 29:00Now you said that you believe that God
753. 29:02has forgiven you.
754. 29:03Yes.
755. 29:05But have you been able to forgive
756. 29:07yourself or is that something you'll
757. 29:08never be able to do? There was a long
758. 29:10time of struggle where I couldn't
759. 29:11forgive myself and I went through a lot
760. 29:15of pain uh in during that time period.
761. 29:19But one day a minister was preaching a
762. 29:21sermon uh from the book of Micah the
763. 29:24prophet and he talked about God taking
764. 29:26all your sins and throwing them into the
765. 29:28sea of forgetfulness never to be
766. 29:30remembered anymore. And as he was
767. 29:32speaking, I felt like God's spirit, I
768. 29:36know it's a hard thing to understand,
769. 29:37but I I kind of sensed God's spirit just
770. 29:39kind of
771. 29:41bloom in me in that moment where I felt
772. 29:44God was reaching out to me and saying,
773. 29:45"David, your sins are forgiven. David,
774. 29:48I've completely forgiven you. I love
775. 29:50you. I want you to know that." And right
776. 29:53then and there, it's like a light went
777. 29:55off inside me. And I knew from that
778. 29:57moment that my sins were completely
779. 29:58forgiven. They were forgiven the moment
780. 30:01I came to Christ, but it took me a
781. 30:03number of years before I was finally
782. 30:05able to realize the need to just forgive
783. 30:08myself and to let go. And that's what I
784. 30:10try to do today is just let go of the
785. 30:12past as much as possible. I hate talking
786. 30:14about it. I hate dwelling on it. It's
787. 30:17like another life that I don't even
788. 30:18recognize anymore.
789. 30:21Now, you're talking about forgiveness in
790. 30:22a spiritual sense.
791. 30:23Yes. But I don't think that you're
792. 30:25implying or are you that the rest of
793. 30:28society should just say, "Okay, no harm,
794. 30:31no foul."
795. 30:32No, not not at all. I mean, I uh I
796. 30:35committed serious crimes.
797. 30:38I I deserve to be in prison for the rest
798. 30:40of my life. I I recognize that. I know
799. 30:42that people will never forgive me.
800. 30:44That's okay.
801. 30:46That's that's normal, you know. That's
802. 30:49But still, my life goes on.
803. 30:52[Music]