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Soldier F goes on trial over historic Bloody Sunday murders in Derry — Transcript

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0:03The expression justice delayed is
0:05justice denied has almost become a
0:07cliche, but this case is a living
0:10example of that. By the time of Bloody
0:12Sunday, Soldier F was on a second tour
0:15of Northern Ireland. He had been
0:17promoted and knew he was licensed to use
0:20whatever violence he liked. He was
0:22specially protected by an unlawful
0:24agreement between the British Army and
0:27the RU signed off at the highest level.
0:30This agreement was in response to local
0:32and international concern about the
0:34growing numbers of incidents in which
0:35unarmed civilians were being shot dead
0:37with increasing regularity by the
0:39British Army and how the police should
0:41be reacting. Soldier F2 has benefited
0:44greatly from this agreement. None of his
0:47RMP statements are admissible to this
0:49court, as is the case with his Treasury
0:51Solicitor statement when he radically
0:52rearranged his 13 shots and belatedly
0:55admitted killing another four victims
0:58because his bullet was found in Michael
1:00Kelly's spine. As with his sworn oral
1:03evidence to witchery and to the bloody
1:05Sunday inquiry, when he then claimed to
1:07know he fired his weapon that day, but
1:09he claimed not to recall when, where, or
1:12why he fired it. Many key witnesses to
1:15his behavior and brutality have passed
1:17away. The forensic evidence is gone,
1:20including the bullet that killed Michael
1:21Kelly, which was lost. His rifle, which
1:23was sold off by the Ministry of Defense
1:25at the commencement of the Savquary. He
1:28faces a sliver of the evidence that once
1:30was available, and stands trial only for
1:33his victims within Glen Far Park and is
1:36charged with murdering less than half of
1:38the men and boys he killed. Nonetheless,
1:40this case is as close to accountability
1:42as we have been able to achieve.
1:45>> Nicola, I How do I welcome you to your
1:49own podcast?
1:49>> What are we doing here? Yeah,
1:52>> we actually sort of decided that we'd
1:54just go for it, didn't we? Because it's,
1:56you know, I'm I'm in the north. I'm in
1:58our northern offices and I'm in your
1:59podcast studio, the Beltell, but we're
2:02probably going to we're going to put
2:03this out on both platforms, the Beltell
2:06and Crime World.
2:08>> That's the plan. Yeah,
2:09>> this is you know crime world even the
2:13bell held this is a very unusual case
2:15because
2:17>> bloody Sunday was 53 years ago it was
2:22there's been two major investigations
2:25tribunals one of which the wgery uh the
2:29wgery findings were were thrown out as
2:31nonsense there's been so many articles
2:34there's so much so many documentaries
2:37we've had savo I
2:40What left is there to find out? So, I
2:42mean, that's the question that the
2:44public will be asking. What is this all
2:46about?
2:46>> Well, this is about putting Soldier F,
2:49as he's known, into the dock. And he's
2:53been tried for two murders, those of
2:55James Ray and Willie McKini. And we
2:58heard today at the opening of the case
2:59that they were essentially shot as they
3:01sort of, you know, in the backs, you
3:03know, they were they were shot from
3:04behind. Um, and he's also
3:08being charged with the attempted murder
3:10of five other people. So, there isn't
3:14much to know. It is quite weird because
3:16we know everything. Even the opening of
3:18a trial is usually, you know, there's
3:21reveals, isn't there? You know, there's
3:23what is the case against this person.
3:26Um, but there wasn't reveals because
3:29there's been so much investigation into
3:31Bloody Sunday that we know exactly what
3:33happens. It will be up to the
3:36prosecution to prove that soldier F is
3:41guilty of murder and that's beyond
3:44reasonable doubt obviously and it's in
3:46front of a judge, a diploa case you call
3:48it up here. It would essentially be
3:50similar to our special criminal court
3:52except you just one judge sitting. Uh so
3:54that's it. Soldier F is in the dock now,
3:57weirdly in a kind of a a curtain,
4:01actually, not unlike this podcast studio
4:03we're in. He's he's sitting in the
4:05middle of the courtroom surrounded by
4:07black curtains. You can't see him.
4:10>> And Soldier F, that phraseology, which
4:13we're so used to now,
4:15>> but
4:16you just need to Google and you'll find
4:18out who Soldier F is because Colum
4:21Eastwood stood up in the House of
4:22Commons and named him. So we can't name
4:26him because of legal reasons.
4:28>> Mhm.
4:29>> But it
4:31we often question sometimes in the
4:33modern world how that that can get quite
4:35farical and it is slightly farcical and
4:38at this stage in this case but
4:40nevertheless
4:42that's not up to us. That's not our
4:43call.
4:44>> Yeah, it is a bit because you don't have
4:46to go too deep into the bowels of the
4:48internet to find who he is. I don't
4:50believe there's any upto-date
4:52photographs of him. However, um so in
4:55that way you can in the internet, not
4:58going to direct anyone to it, but you
5:00can see a photograph of him when he was
5:01a young paratrooper in his 20ies. I've
5:04no doubt he's changed a lot. He's in his
5:0670s now. And the court in actual fact
5:08has told that he is in some sort of ill
5:11health that he needs these comfort
5:12breaks and um you know that they they
5:16need they need to happen kind of
5:18sporadically during the evidence. This
5:20morning it was mobbed and we were
5:23waiting a long time to go into the
5:25courtroom. Presumably they were trying
5:26to set up this curtain situation. Um,
5:29and we were only starting really at
5:32about 11 and the next thing there was
5:34these comfort breaks at 12. So everyone
5:36spills back out and everyone goes back
5:38in again. If this trial continues,
5:40they're going to have to be a little bit
5:41more efficient with that. I think
5:44>> as you say we we can't predict and and
5:47it's not for us to try and predict what
5:49the defense case will be or the
5:51prosecution case will be but we do we
5:54just point out to the listener that in
5:55this case that as far as humanly
5:58possible at this stage or in the recent
6:01past that the facts of Bloody Sunday
6:03were forensically analyzed as far as
6:06they possibly could be
6:08>> then that has been done. So those facts,
6:12you know, and and it's they're there to
6:14be read. You can go on online and read
6:16what the Savin Inquiry found about
6:19Bloody Sunday. So I think that that's a
6:22great mystery for people who are
6:23listening because it's a great mystery
6:24to me as well. I know we were we're
6:26having a we chat
6:27>> beforehand like how could they possibly
6:30defend this? How could they possibly
6:32prosecute this because it's so so long
6:34ago. Well, I suppose so what's happening
6:36is so today we got the opening which was
6:39the prosecution laid out their case
6:41right now. I have reams of notes, but
6:43I'll just explain it to you in in as
6:45clear and and concise as I can. They
6:48have photographs that they're they've
6:50presented to the judge and they will
6:52show where people were when this sort of
6:55shooting began. They have um statements
6:59from people which are going to be read
7:01into the court over the coming days
7:03which will kind of set the scene because
7:05of course this was a civil rights march
7:08that came in the aftermath of internment
7:11and 20,000 people I think attended it
7:13but the paratroopers came in and the the
7:17the case against Soldier F is he's one
7:19of those that shot at unarmed civilians
7:22and would later claim uh in a serious
7:26series of statements a number of the
7:27soldiers made claiming that they were
7:29armed which they weren't and really I
7:31think that's the Savile inquiry cleared
7:33the name of these people that they
7:35weren't fighting back they were just
7:36ordinary people um you know out on the
7:40the the civil right and in in actual
7:42fact when you hear the detail of it
7:44today and they're running for their
7:45lives because they know the paratroopers
7:47are coming the soldiers are coming
7:49they're talking people hear these kind
7:51of comments going around and you can you
7:53can get a sense of the panic as they
7:55come into this sort of um cordoned area
7:57in Glenfat Park. Have you been up in
7:59Derry at the
8:00>> the the the museum and I was brought
8:03around shown these little places. When
8:05you actually see how kind of tight it
8:06was, there's nowhere to go. Human beings
8:09were essentially being cordoned into
8:10this area by these heavily armed
8:13soldiers. Um so basically that is the
8:18case. Now the central to it is
8:21statements that were given by these
8:23paratroopers back in 1972 when this
8:26happened just kind of that evening and
8:29and in the aftermath of it. And at that
8:31point those soldiers are saying that
8:34these civilians were armed that they
8:35were under threat and that's why they
8:37opened fire. So they they they say they
8:40shot basically at them, but they have
8:43claimed that some of these young men in
8:46particular had nail bombs or they had,
8:49you know, guns with them. That has all
8:51been disproved, but in those statements
8:53they admit who is there and who is in
8:55the in the particular sort of uh
8:58relevant places. So they all have
9:01letters. So I suppose central to this we
9:03have soldier F in the dock and his buddy
9:09was soldier G and then there's Soldier H
9:13and soldier E. Now G and E are dead we
9:16know. And soldier H is one of the only
9:19uh paratroopers who isn't named by the
9:22others as having shot that day uh in
9:26these statements. But uh there seems to
9:30have been a lot of rounds of uh
9:32ammunition that left his gun at the same
9:35time, but he isn't named. Now, those
9:37statements from 1972 are key to this,
9:40and there will be an application in the
9:42court as to whether or not they can be,
9:44you know, you know, they're hearsay
9:47because the people aren't here to give
9:49the evidence. um they were repeated
9:53these statements in the Wijery tribunal
9:57and then two of the soldiers were
9:59actually dead by the time Savile came
10:00up. But nonetheless, they're placing the
10:02individuals in particularly F where the
10:05um the prosecution sort of want them to
10:08prove that he was shooting at unarmed
10:10civilians, but they mightn't be allowed
10:12in. These witness statements may not be
10:15allowed in. He will be arguing that and
10:17that really will be key to his defense.
10:19Soldier F. If he can get those witness
10:22statements thrown out, um there probably
10:24isn't a case against him.
10:26>> And that's a matter of evidence. And
10:28that's this that's what we'll see
10:30because this is not examining the entire
10:34event in terms of history. This is
10:38examining the actions of one person
10:41>> on one day 53 years ago
10:44and whether those actions
10:47and can be proven to the point of beyond
10:51reasonable doubt and that's the only way
10:52that soldier F would be convicted of
10:54murder.
10:55>> Yeah. if he can be placed in the
10:57relevant part of Derry where those
11:00murders occurred and he has been placed
11:03there by these statements made in 1972
11:06and again at the Wijery tribunal um
11:10those if that evidence isn't allowed be
11:12used basically in the court I don't
11:15think there's enough against him because
11:17you don't have um you don't have him
11:21there where he where he needs to be um
11:24and obviously Soldier H. Where is he? I
11:27don't even know. I mean, definitely we
11:30know that that G and E are dead, but H
11:33is um
11:37you know, I don't know. Is he going to
11:38come and give evidence? I don't know. We
11:39didn't hear that today in the court
11:40anyway. But we sort of just got an
11:42overview of the case and um that this is
11:47going to be key to it. There will be
11:49other witnesses called eyewitnesses who
11:51were there in the day, people who lost
11:53loved ones and who who were very much at
11:55the in the thick of it. Um, but
11:57definitely those statements are vital.
12:00>> It's hard to imagine a more political
12:04trial. You've seen that on the ground
12:06because you were there before the
12:08proceedings kicked off today and I
12:10suppose
12:11>> there's that's one of the main reasons,
12:14one of the main things we can talk about
12:15today. And then when I'm sitting in the
12:17office and I see the statements coming
12:20in from the unionist parties, you know,
12:22because for for them this is a this is a
12:25disgrace.
12:26>> So I mean it is always going to be
12:28highly political. Now the judge is above
12:30that. Um but but again
12:33there was you know we we had protests
12:36outside the court today for whatever.
12:38>> Yeah. I mean look I'm out of my lane
12:41here. You know, I just I just found the
12:43opening of this really interesting and
12:45have done some stuff on Bloody Sunday on
12:47what happened, but I feel like I'm
12:51coming at this with sort of I'm I'm I'm
12:53goalied not by the families obviously of
12:57the deceased and that two buses I think
13:00came in from Derry this morning um
13:02carrying those relatives who have fought
13:05tirelessly for this day really and for
13:08some justice to be served. um they
13:11marched or walked very peacefully from
13:13the markets area down as far as the
13:16court and there was statements read by
13:18uh Kieran Shields who's their the the
13:21lawyer from Madden and Fukucan who've
13:23represented the families all the way
13:24through and there was other statements
13:27made by relatives who've lost loved
13:29ones. So that bit is all very normal to
13:32me. I totally understand what's going on
13:34there. But then there was another little
13:35sort of portion of people who were
13:38wearing beretss and dressed like
13:40soldiers and they were sort of standing
13:42a small small group standing over to one
13:44side and not engaging. And in the
13:46aftermath of the um the opening I
13:49actually went over to them and I said uh
13:50you know do you have a point to make
13:53here? You're you're obviously you're
13:55here in support of Soldier F. So yes,
13:58they were um they were very anti- media,
14:01which is very strange when you're
14:03protesting and you've got your press
14:04statements ready, but you don't
14:06particularly want to give them to
14:07somebody. I think they sort of were a
14:08bit offended that I was from Dublin for
14:10a start, but they they basically said a
14:13number of them told me that they were ex
14:15paratroopers themselves. They were in
14:17support of Soldier F. We didn't go into
14:19huge amount more detail in what they
14:20believe, but I've I've heard the stuff.
14:22I've seen the social media. So there is
14:24this argument that you can't prosecute
14:28or certain uh element of the population
14:31believe no soldier F should not be
14:34prosecuted because if he is then any
14:35soldier doing anything and anybody you
14:38know
14:38>> regardless of the facts regardless
14:40>> regardless of the facts I mean like the
14:42argument to me about that is so crazy
14:45when you know that there is no argument
14:48about the fact that these were unarmed
14:49civilians who were murdered essentially
14:51in cold blood. So, you know, how can
14:54people support that? But I suppose in a
14:57wider way, you have all the politics, as
15:00you say, is going on in the background
15:01there.
15:01>> Well, I Okay. Okay. I was I was going to
15:04come to that but I'll come to it now
15:06because Gregory Campbell the East London
15:08Derry MP I mean he said you you know he
15:11would be opposed to this because it
15:12highlights the deep unfairness of how
15:14legacy cases are being pursued with
15:16former soldiers elderly soldiers dragged
15:18before the courts while terrorists
15:20responsible for countless murders
15:22continue to escape justice and that was
15:23echoed by the TUV's Jim Alistister but
15:26as well as that he said it is important
15:28to remember the context in London at the
15:31time soldiers were sent in because of
15:33escalating IRA violence, bombings, and
15:35shootings that created fear and
15:36devastation across the city. Only 3 days
15:39before bloody Sunday, two RU men had
15:41been murdered by terrorists in the area
15:42of the proposed marsh. This was bound to
15:44create serious apprehension among
15:46soldiers being deployed. To now single
15:48out one soldier decades later while
15:50terrorists walk free is an affront to
15:52fairness. H
15:55look you know the the facts were laid
15:59out today and they have been laid out in
16:01the Savile inquiry and others. These
16:03were peaceful people unarmed who were
16:08shot down like they're animals you know
16:10and and and that cannot surely be seen
16:12as oh there was officers had been killed
16:15so the soldiers were what are we saying
16:16a bit antsy that day. They shot people
16:18in the back as they ran for their lives.
16:20you know, they shot unarmed civilians.
16:24Um, and 26 in total was it because there
16:28was 13 death dead and a lot of people
16:30with really bad injuries, really
16:32horrific injuries, you know, bullet
16:35injuries, um, and people who have been,
16:38you know, in pain to this day.
16:41>> The message from the families, uh, they
16:44said, "Our message is simple. Towards
16:46justice, we shall overcome." If I said
16:49you mean you're from Dublin
16:51>> between 1972 and 1916
16:55there were it was 56 years.
16:58>> Mhm.
16:59>> Between 1972 and today it's 53 years. I
17:02mean it's very similar length of time. M
17:05>> does it surprise you I suppose coming in
17:08and looking at this that this body the
17:10relatives and the bloody Sunday justice
17:13campaign has has has held together
17:16>> is united and and and remains a huge
17:19political issue 53 years later
17:23>> I think there it's extraordinary the
17:25support they give one another and the
17:27dedication they have to the cause many
17:29of the relatives I think are working in
17:30that museum and they will talk to
17:33visitors visitors who come along and
17:34speak to them about Bloody Sunday and
17:36what happened and they keep that whole
17:37they keep the story alive. I suppose 53
17:40years seems a long long time to us but
17:42if you've lost your brother or you know
17:44you've lost a relative a loved one um it
17:47probably isn't. But is it not like a
17:50cold case murder? It's a little bit like
17:54a cold case. We've had some cold case
17:56murders that I mean we had one of the a
17:58murder from certainly 1981. Maybe that's
18:02a little bit, you know, 40 odd years,
18:05but it is a these are murders, I
18:08suppose. Um, there would never have been
18:11a cold case investigation into what
18:14happened on Bloody Sunday. The reason
18:16Soldier F is in the dock at all is
18:19because of the absolute tenacity of the
18:21of the relatives and how far they fought
18:24um, you know, against all sorts of
18:26opposition to get to get to this place.
18:28we've mentioned on the bail podcast many
18:31times and I'm sure it's come up in uh in
18:35crimeold as well is that in theory the
18:40the forces of law and order treat every
18:42case
18:44um fairly now that's clearly a lot more
18:48complicated in this case in the case of
18:50Broly Sunday because
18:51>> you know the British army and by
18:54association the RC themselves were
18:56heavily implicated in what happened so
18:58This is a case of the state
19:00investigating itself. But we speak about
19:03this often is that unfortunately if you
19:06want justice
19:09>> for your relative, the people who keep
19:12the fight up and it must take an awful
19:15lot of energy and heartache and keep
19:18pressure on the authorities.
19:21You know, you're much more likely
19:23>> Mhm. to get justice because
19:27a file can remain at the back of that
19:29cabinet for many many years but a TV
19:31documentary can bring it to the front.
19:32We we know that that's just a fact.
19:34>> He who shouts loudest as they say will
19:37will get places. Yeah, it's it's
19:38embarrassing. I suppose it's
19:39embarrassing the the political
19:41establishment and embarrassing
19:45police that they haven't solved certain
19:46things. But I often see, and I'm sure
19:49you do too, it's the exhaustion of the
19:52people that are left behind that have to
19:54keep fighting like that. They really get
19:56emotionally drained and they need time
19:59out sometimes from it. You know what I
20:00mean? It can sometimes they can have to
20:02step away from, you know, this
20:04campaigning for a few years and then
20:07they might come back to it fresh and
20:09with more energy and stuff, but it takes
20:11a terrible toll on people
20:14>> and everyone has their own life. So,
20:17you know, like you want justice and this
20:19fight is important, but I don't know how
20:24if you'd agree with me, but perhaps, and
20:26I don't have personal experience that
20:27perhaps some people find themselves in a
20:30situation where they don't want to be
20:31defined by a tragedy, be it Bloody
20:34Sunday, be it be it the Stardust
20:35tragedy,
20:36>> be it, you know, the murder of an
20:38individual that, you know, some people
20:43whether by
20:45whether they want to or not seem to move
20:48on a lot more naturally.
20:50>> Yeah. But I think, you know, in the case
20:53of Bloody Sunday, I think probably had
20:56the lies not been told from the
20:58beginning, had the truth come out early
21:01on, had those, you know, murdered souls
21:06not been branded as essentially, you
21:08know, violent terrorists who were
21:10carrying around nail bombs and were
21:12shooting it. And really, they the blame
21:14was laid with the victims, wasn't it,
21:16from the beginning. And I suppose that's
21:18really what started this campaign, that
21:21sort of sense of injustice about that.
21:24Um, and it it has kept it's kept going.
21:28Some people, yeah, some people maybe
21:30can't, you know, they walk away because
21:32they don't they believe it's never going
21:34to bring their loved one back, which of
21:38course it won't, but then some people,
21:40it's almost like um
21:43it just becomes their mission in life,
21:44doesn't it? To to get that justice.
21:47Bloody Sunday at the time, I suppose,
21:49left the Irish government in 1972
21:53in a in a in a difficult place. Um,
21:57there have been many books written
21:58since, many podcasts and many articles
22:02>> as to whether they were going to somehow
22:05intervene and stuff. They weren't. But I
22:07just wonder after all of this time, how
22:09much interest is there in this case in
22:11Dublin?
22:14Well, I was interested enough to come up
22:16and to cover it. I'm not going to be
22:18sitting for the duration of the trial. I
22:20can't do that. But I think if there is
22:23there's going to be some days that are
22:24going to be interesting. I mean, this
22:25trial could go on for 8 weeks. Um, is
22:29there interest in Bloody Sunday? I think
22:30it's sort of definitely one of those
22:34unforgettable
22:36things that has happened in this
22:38country. Um, and
22:42there has to be surely interest that
22:44this soldier I was only talking to
22:46Allison last week and I was just saying
22:48to her what I intrigues me is this guy
22:50was only 21 at the time as were the
22:53other soldiers. What created them and
22:55made them and what did they go on to do
22:57in their futures? Of course, we can't
22:59discuss um much around that while he's
23:02he's on trial and when he has that
23:04anonymity, but I would find that really
23:07interesting. And I'd also find it really
23:08interesting to know if if for example
23:11he's found guilty, does he lose his
23:14anonymity?
23:16>> Well, one would presume that justice
23:19must be seen to be done. Yeah.
23:21>> And then we could find out, I suppose,
23:23what he has done for the last 53 years,
23:25but
23:25>> exactly.
23:26>> You know, I have to Jim Alistister, the
23:28TUV leader said, you know, uh obviously
23:30opposes this prosecution. He's a leading
23:32barister himself and he says the the
23:35this prosecution must be seriously
23:37questioned because three years ago, just
23:39three years ago, um the public
23:41prosecution service abandoned the
23:43prosecution because of the fragility of
23:44the evidence and now with the same
23:46evidence, it is now proceeding and
23:48obviously they're proceeding because of
23:49the the uh court challenge from the from
23:52the families.
23:53>> Exactly. So, and and the the the pro the
23:56public prosecutor decided to take this
23:58case. I have to just give you a little
24:00bit of so it's Louis Mabley KC is is is
24:04for um the prosecution and I hope I'm
24:07pronouncing that name right but anyway
24:10he in sort of summing up the opening um
24:14said that basically that yes he said
24:18that these soldiers were unjustified as
24:22the civilians were not posing a threat
24:24and the use of rifles was simply
24:27essentially murder in that case. He said
24:30it's not possible to decide which
24:32shoulder soldier shot them. So in other
24:35words, they're not going to be able to
24:37prove that soldier F had his finger on
24:40the trigger for a particular murder. But
24:43what they're saying is that each of
24:45these people was either shot by F or by
24:48one of his colleagues as he encouraged
24:50them. So they were jointly responsible.
24:52So it's like it's a joint enterprise. Um
24:56the evidence he said showed he opened
24:59fire um in those circumstances when when
25:02when the the civilians were unarmed.
25:05>> And Nicola, as you said, this could go
25:07on for up to eight weeks.
25:09>> Nicola Talent. Thank you very much.
25:11>> Thank you very much.
25:15>> I'm Nicola Talent and you're watching
25:17Crime World, a podcast about criminals,
25:20drugs, and the underworld in Ireland and
25:22across the globe. Make sure you
25:25subscribe to our channel and turn on
25:27notifications so you can be the first to
25:29watch all our latest episodes. You can
25:32also listen wherever you get your
25:34podcasts.

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