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Slaughter of The Suitors: Odyssey Explained Part 2 — Transcript

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0:00The Odyssey. An epic poem of one man's
0:0210-year journey home.
0:05Last time on The Ancients, we followed
0:07Odysseus from the smoking ruins of Troy,
0:09through lands of cannibal giants,
0:11sorceresses, and a journey to the
0:13underworld, only to leave him with a
0:15terrible prophecy, and a home in chaos.
0:20Today, we plunge into the most deadly
0:22part of the journey, the sea of
0:24monsters, as Odysseus races towards
0:26Ithaca, past sirens, a whirlpool,
0:30through shipwreck and divine anger. Then
0:32finally, he arrives to a palace overrun
0:35with predatory suitors, who have spent
0:37years devouring Odysseus's wealth, and
0:40courting his wife Penelope, the worst
0:43guests imaginable. We will trace
0:45Odysseus's secret return under the
0:47goddess Athena's disguise,
0:49his reunion with his son Telemachus, and
0:51the build-up to one of the grizzliest
0:53climaxes in Greek myth, the slaughter of
0:56the suitors.
0:58And throughout, we see how this
1:00landscape of slavery, of raiding and
1:02hostage-taking, were part of how
1:05Mycenaean Bronze Age power worked in the
1:07real world. I'm your host, Tristan
1:10Hughes, and guiding us once more through
1:12these bitter, bloody waters is the
1:15classicist and novelist Emily Hauser.
1:18Welcome to The Ancients.
1:24>> [music]
1:30>> Emily, great to have you back on the
1:32show.
1:32>> Wonderful to be back.
1:33>> It's almost as if we've just finished
1:34recording the other one.
1:35>> It really is. [laughter]
1:37Déjà vu.
1:37>> But we are now halfway through the story
1:40of the Odyssey. And we can say that
1:41because this is literally the halfway
1:43point in the epic story.
1:45>> Yeah. Well, we're right at the kind of
1:47middle of those 24 books of the Odyssey.
1:49We're at the kind of the end of book 11.
1:51We've got a little bit more adventuring
1:53to do before Odysseus is going to land
1:54back on Ithaca, uh which he does kind of
1:56at that halfway point. Um but, you know,
1:58we're we're closing in now on the final
2:00goal.
2:01>> And and to clarify so people know
2:02exactly what we're talking about. So,
2:04this second half of the story of the
2:07Odyssey, it is very much it's preparing
2:09you for Odysseus's
2:11his his return to Ithaca, which should
2:13be like this great homecoming. But also,
2:17it's
2:18it's not the loveliest homecoming, is
2:20it? It soon becomes a very grizzly
2:22episode at the same time.
2:23>> Yeah, he's definitely got problems
2:24ahead. So, [laughter]
2:26you might sort of think that, okay,
2:27well, Odysseus gets home halfway through
2:29the epic, what on earth are we going to
2:30do for the rest of the epic? But he has
2:32got plenty to keep him busy. He has the
2:35massive problem of the suitors, who are
2:38108 men from around Ithaca and
2:40neighboring islands, who in his absence,
2:42while he's been away for 10 years in the
2:44Trojan War, 10 years on his way home,
2:46they have come into his house, into his
2:49palace. They've kind of eaten all his
2:51food, eaten them out of house and home,
2:53been trying to persuade his wife to
2:54marry them, persuade her to accept that
2:56Odysseus is dead. And so, he's got all
2:58of them to kind of get through as well
3:00as, of course, making sure that
3:01everybody is back on his side again.
3:03>> And this is not just the the telling off
3:05of the suitors. This isn't the exiling
3:06of the suitors. This is the slaughter of
3:09the suitors, isn't it?
3:10>> They're not going to get just a kind of
3:11slap on the wrist. [laughter] This is
3:12This is absolutely This is They are all
3:14going to get killed in a pretty kind of
3:15major bloodbath. And not many people
3:17think of the end of the Odyssey as kind
3:19of ending with a bloodbath, but it
3:20really does. It's It's a It's a pretty
3:21vicious ending.
3:22>> And that's what we're going to build up
3:23to in the episode today. But first off,
3:26for anyone watching or listening who is
3:28coming into this episode cold, make sure
3:30you do go and listen to the first
3:31episode. Uh but if you haven't, should
3:33we just summarize where we've got up to
3:35by the end of book 12 of the Odyssey?
3:38So, the halfway point. So, we've covered
3:39some big themes, some big events so far.
3:42>> Yeah, well, we've actually got up to the
3:43end of book 11, right
3:44>> Sorry, book 11, my
3:44>> Yeah, yeah. No, but we've done a good
3:46chunk of the poem. So, what we're
3:48looking at with the Odyssey is about 24
3:5024 books of poetry, and uh sort of about
3:53hitting the halfway point. Uh we've had
3:55Odysseus He started out on Calypso's
3:57Island. That's where we first met him at
3:59the beginning of the Odyssey. We've seen
4:00his son Telemachus go on his own mini
4:02voyage. Uh we've seen Odysseus then
4:04being released from Calypso's Island. Uh
4:07he gets into a storm. He gets washed up
4:09on the Island of the Phaeacians, who are
4:11incredibly hospitable, treat him really
4:13nicely, and in return he gives them the
4:15song of his own voyages um as he kind of
4:18got there. And so we then get the tale
4:20of everything that happened to him from
4:21Troy, the famous episode of the Cyclops,
4:23of Circe. Um we get uh all of that told
4:26by Odysseus. And then he ultimately
4:28ventures to the Underworld.
4:30>> where we left him, wasn't it?
4:32>> That's where we left him, exactly, on
4:33the shore of the Underworld, uh
4:34communing with the spirits of the dead,
4:36uh and getting his directions for his
4:38way home.
4:38>> Yes, so what have the dead and is
4:39Tiresias the prophet in particular,
4:41isn't it? What has Tiresias just
4:44revealed to Odysseus?
4:46>> Yeah, well Tiresias hasn't been hugely
4:47helpful if he was looking for a kind of
4:49Google Maps equivalent of how to get
4:51back to Ithaca. Um so he hasn't given
4:53him that, but what he has told him is
4:55that sticky situation that, you know, we
4:56now know about with the suitors, um the
4:59fact that Penelope is is still waiting,
5:01but that Odysseus needs to really get
5:02back quite sharpish in order to make
5:04sure that he uh can reinstate himself as
5:06king of Ithaca. Um and he also tells him
5:08that he's got another voyage in his
5:10future. Uh once he gets back to Ithaca,
5:12he's got to go traveling again. So this
5:14is very much a kind of uh telling us
5:16about what's going to happen in the
5:17Odyssey, but also telling us that
5:18Odysseus is someone perhaps he can never
5:20really come home.
5:21>> Oh gosh, prophetic, isn't it? And he
5:23still has his crew at this time?
5:25>> So at this point uh we're sort of
5:26heading into kind of the end of the
5:28voyage. He still does have some of his
5:30crew.
5:30>> Some of his crew.
5:31>> Yeah, I mean we've kind of mislaid a few
5:33on various adventures. Um but, you know,
5:35we do still have some of them. Um
5:37however, that is about to get seriously
5:40reduced. Um and we've got a monster
5:42lying in wait in order to do that. And
5:43we've also got a kind of pretty serious
5:46uh kind of uh trespass that
5:47>> sacrilege
5:48>> sacrilege exactly that the crew do
5:50themselves.
5:51>> Well, the last thing before we now kind
5:52of explore those next key events that
5:55you did mention in the first episode,
5:57but I want to bring it up again because
5:58it's so interesting especially when we
6:01look at the figure of Odysseus and how
6:02he's portrayed is this idea of him as a
6:05hero and how the ancient Greeks would
6:07have viewed him as a hero because
6:10it isn't just just pure bare-bones
6:13idealizing this figure. This is also a
6:15figure who is quite for those associated
6:19with him it's not going to be plain
6:21sailing.
6:21>> It's not and in fact the fact that he
6:24kind of brings destruction to his crew
6:27is something that is a really strong
6:28theme throughout the Odyssey because as
6:30the Odyssey opens it says Odysseus is
6:33striving for the return of his
6:35companions, you know, so the fact that
6:37he fails to get them home is actually a
6:39really big part of Odysseus's story. Um
6:42it's something that as a hero you are
6:44someone who is probably going to be
6:47because you're such a kind of big figure
6:48because you have emotions and ambitions
6:51that cannot kind of be contained you can
6:54be very destructive to the people around
6:55you and it's Odysseus's ambition to get
6:57back to Ithaca pretty much at all costs.
7:00Does it that is what ultimately then
7:02costs him all of his men.
7:04>> Absolutely and one other thing that
7:06we'll be doing as this chat goes on is
7:09yes we'll be largely talking about the
7:10stories and these figures from the
7:13mythology
7:14man and myth beasts and so on
7:17but also exploring from time to time
7:20the real-life locations that become
7:22linked to these key events. We've
7:24already mentioned we mentioned places
7:27like is it um
7:29Calypso on Malta
7:31the Phaeacians on Corfu
7:34the river Acheron which is actually a
7:36river today in Northwest Greece.
7:38>> Yep, exactly.
7:39>> And there are several more locations as
7:40well for the events that we're going to
7:42cover that people
7:44later associated with that actually
7:45being the place of the Sirens of Circe
7:49and and so on.
7:50>> Well, that's the thing is that when
7:51Odysseus is kind of going on his voyage,
7:53it is a voyage through geography, right?
7:55You the poet is describing islands, he's
7:58describing natural features. And so I
7:59think throughout history people have
8:01been so beguiled by the idea that this
8:03might be a real place and and have kind
8:05of gone on their own little mini Odyssey
8:07trying to find out where these places
8:08are. So there are absolutely ways that
8:10we can match up what kind of later
8:11people thought might be the original
8:13places of the Odyssey. So how should we
8:15kick off this story? Where do we begin
8:17for this second half of the Odyssey?
8:19Well, we're probably heading out of the
8:21underworld, aren't we? We'll get our
8:22ships, we'll we'll get them back off the
8:23beach. We'll say goodbye to the spirits.
8:26We've had a little bit of information
8:27from the spirits, not just from
8:28Tiresias, but also from the kind of
8:30triad of Greeks. We've had Achilles, who
8:33has done this amazing speech where he
8:35says that basically he would rather be
8:37the lowest laborer and be alive than be
8:40the king of the underworld. So a
8:42complete turnaround from the Achilles of
8:44the Iliad we've got here. We've got
8:46Agamemnon who tells Odysseus about all
8:48of the terrible things that happened to
8:50him back home, the fact that he was
8:52murdered by Clytemnestra and her lover
8:55Aegisthus. And then we've got Ajax who
8:57just sulks and
8:59is a is a bit annoyed that Odysseus won
9:01the armor of Achilles, which is one of
9:02those earlier episodes from the Trojan
9:04War. However, we draw our ships up, we
9:06say goodbye to the spirits, and we go
9:08back and Odysseus travels back to
9:10Circe's island. And he's got quite an
9:12important job to do there. He's got to
9:14bury one of his comrades who had a
9:16tragic accident before Odysseus left and
9:19who actually appeared to him rather kind
9:21of tragically as a spirit, as a shade in
9:23the underworld and said, "Please bury my
9:25body."
9:25>> Did he did Odysseus already know that he
9:27had died or was that revealed to him?
9:29>> It was revealed to him there. So it's
9:31it's a real kind of a tragedy that that
9:33this guy, Elpenor is his name, kind of
9:35says you you need to make sure to bury
9:37me.
9:37>> And also as you mentioned in the last
9:38episode so Circe you know
9:41which slash you know what we call many
9:44drugs many drugs Circe?
9:45>> Yes. With a lot of a lot [laughter] of
9:47knowledge of drugs.
9:48>> Yes.
9:49And a romantic relationship between
9:52Odysseus and Circe develops from that.
9:55And then he leaves to go to the
9:56underworld and then he's gone back to
9:57Circe's island. He doesn't stay there
9:59long for the second time.
10:00>> No no now he's kind of got his purpose
10:02>> his mission.
10:02>> got exactly and he's got kind of the
10:04problem hasn't he because the the issue
10:06is now that he knows what's happening
10:08back on Ithaca. Tiresias the prophet has
10:10told him all of the terrible things that
10:12are happening. So now his sights have
10:14kind of moved from this fantasy world
10:16that he's been wandering around with
10:18sort of aimlessly and now he's really
10:20kind of sights set back on Ithaca.
10:21>> And so where does he head off to with
10:24his troops with his men from Circe's
10:26island?
10:27>> So Circe gives him kind of the
10:28directions that he needs to to carry on
10:30and he's got a couple of different
10:31adventures ahead of him. Um we've got
10:33famously Scylla and Charybdis. Uh so
10:35we've got basically a choice between two
10:38evils. We've got uh Charybdis which is a
10:40kind of sucking whirlpool which you
10:42can't escape from and we've got Scylla a
10:44kind of multi-headed dog-headed monster
10:47who kind of lurks in a cave and kind of
10:49zooms out and snatches sailors from the
10:51ship.
10:52>> And as Circe said you have to go past
10:54one or two of these.
10:55>> choose one of those and she advises him
10:57that Scylla is probably the better one.
10:59Uh we kind of have got to know Odysseus
11:01over these episodes he's going to
11:02sacrifice a few men uh and that's
11:04exactly what he does so he ends up
11:06losing six men on the way past Scylla.
11:08>> So that's where he's got to get to but
11:10do we have the sirens episode before
11:12that?
11:12>> We do so before we even get there we've
11:14got the sirens on the way.
11:15>> Right let's do that.
11:16>> Yeah so the sirens are really
11:18interesting because the sirens um they
11:20are meant to kind of be these ultimate
11:22lure to men and if you basically go past
11:25the sirens you're not going to be able
11:26to resist them they've got the wreckage
11:28of ships kind of around and beneath
11:30them. Um but Odysseus of course is
11:32ultimately curious. Uh, he will not be
11:34stopped. And so, Circe suggests to him,
11:37if you want to hear the song of the
11:38Sirens, then what you need to do is you
11:40need to get your men to bind you to the
11:43mast, and then put wax in your ears, and
11:45then, uh, put Sorry, put wax in their
11:48ears, and you don't have wax in your
11:49ears. You're going to be You're going to
11:51be hearing everything that they're
11:52saying. You're going to be the only one,
11:54essentially, who is going to hear the
11:55song of the Sirens and live to tell the
11:56tale.
11:57>> And the Sirens, the later idea is, you
11:59know, they're beautiful women. But isn't
12:01it in the original they're they're
12:02they're they're they're bird women or
12:03something like that?
12:03>> Yeah, they're sort of bird women. So,
12:05they're sort of edging into this world
12:06of monsters that we're seeing with
12:08Scylla and Charybdis as well. So, yeah,
12:10absolutely a kind of monstrosity to
12:12them. Um, and we know that their voices
12:14are very seductive.
12:16So, what I find fascinating is, well,
12:18what is it that a Siren would sing that
12:19would be the thing that would cause a
12:21man to kind of wreck his ship on the
12:23rocks. Uh, and what it is is it is his
12:26epic.
12:27So, what the Sirens do is they basically
12:29present the hero with what he wants
12:31above all, which is to be sung of, to be
12:33immortalized in song, and therefore to
12:35be remembered. Um, and so, they
12:37basically what It's really beautiful.
12:39They basically sing of Odysseus, the
12:40sacker of cities. They give him epithets
12:43like Epithets that Achilles gets, you
12:45know, sort of a a hero among heroes. Um,
12:48and that is the thing that is so
12:49tantalizing for a hero to hear.
12:51>> They don't call him polytropos, which is
12:53what he's described as at the beginning,
12:54which is kind of a
12:55a complicated figure, isn't it?
12:56>> Yeah. Uh, so, that's Emily Wilson's
12:57translation is is is complicated. Yeah,
13:00yeah, polytropos, which is a fantastic
13:02translation. Um, but yes, complex,
13:04complicated. That's exactly what he is,
13:05but they call him a sacker of cities.
13:07>> The Sirens are much more flattering to
13:08him than what he wants to hear.
13:09>> Well, and they turn him into the hero
13:11that he kind of wants to be, cuz at this
13:12point he's very anxious about what his
13:15legacy is going to be. He's not back in
13:16Ithaca yet. Um, he hasn't secured his
13:19legacy as king. Um, so, I think, you
13:21know, the fact that you hear your own
13:22epic being sung to him is ultimately
13:25tantalizing.
13:25>> is
13:25>> more narcissistic side of Odysseus
13:27coming out though, right? He's willing
13:29to Yes, okay, his men have got the wax
13:31in their ears so they can't hear, but
13:32he's still willing to steer their ship
13:33very near this very dangerous these
13:36dangerous mythical creatures on the way
13:37to to sate his own desire for glory.
13:40>> Absolutely. And like let's not kind of
13:42beat around the bush, there's also other
13:43men who've also done that, right?
13:45Because they're all wrecked there as
13:46well. So he's part of a kind of
13:49a group of men who to whom this is
13:51deeply alluring.
13:53>> And geographically speaking, I say we we
13:55visit this once in a while.
13:57This is very much associated with the
13:59the coastline of Italy with the
14:00Tyrrhenian Sea, isn't it?
14:02>> Yeah, absolutely. So there are sort of
14:05legends that associate Circe with Italy.
14:07So there is a a mountain there called
14:09Monte Circeo, which is still kind of in
14:12its name connected to Circe.
14:14And then obviously yes, the Tyrrhenian
14:16Sea and then the straits between Sicily
14:18and Italy often sort of thought of as
14:20where maybe Scylla and Charybdis might
14:21have been imagined as.
14:22>> I love that. I love that because um
14:24recently I went to Paestum. I don't know
14:25if you've ever been to Paestum.
14:27>> Oh.
14:27>> The great massive gorgeous temples Doric
14:29temples you know there.
14:31But one of the like the association
14:33there, you know, first of all, the
14:35ancient Greeks in southern Italy, big
14:37presence there and their beliefs. And
14:39one of the gates in the big walls that
14:42surround Paestum and today is called the
14:44Porta Sirena.
14:46And supposedly it's very difficult to
14:48see today, but right at the top of that
14:50gate there's a little relief which
14:52supposedly shows a siren.
14:54>> I love that.
14:54>> So that kind of association or at least
14:56the ancient Greeks who lived there
14:58probably was a strong thinking that the
15:00sirens lived not too far away from where
15:02we were. But once again, I just wanted
15:03to bring that in because it's that that
15:05geography linked to Yes, it's
15:07mythological, but it's what they
15:08thought.
15:09>> exactly later people believing that that
15:11was part of the map of where they lived
15:13and that they thought that that was so
15:14important that they would incorporate
15:16that in kind of their daily life.
15:17>> Absolutely. Well, let's get towards the
15:20strait. So the Strait of Messina, um and
15:23this is supposedly where Odysseus has
15:26that choice.
15:27>> Exactly. This is the the fatal choice
15:29that Circe gives him.
15:30>> And it's Scylla or Charybdis, and
15:31there's no way round. He has to choose
15:33one or the other.
15:33>> He has to choose. Yeah, absolutely.
15:35Which is a kind of, you know, beautiful
15:37kind of moment of like, you know, really
15:39pinning the hero down and being like,
15:40what are you going to do in this
15:41situation? And yes, so he he takes
15:43Circe's advice and he he goes past
15:46Scylla. Uh and it is this kind of
15:47horrible moment of kind of rowing past
15:49that cave as fast as you can. Uh the
15:51monster kind of snatching out and
15:53gobbling up some of his men. It's
15:55exactly what we see saw happening with
15:57the Cyclops when he lost some of his men
15:59being eaten by the Cyclops. So, this is
16:01kind of, in some sense, a kind of
16:02reiteration of something that's happened
16:04to the crew before.
16:05>> And is it this idea of like a
16:06three-headed monster? Is it three heads
16:08or just one head?
16:09>> it's it's multiple heads and the barking
16:12sounds like a dog is what Homer says.
16:14>> So, I think of Fluffy from Harry Potter
16:16and the Philosopher's Stone.
16:17>> you know, yeah. If that's if that floats
16:18your boat. Vicious fluffy.
16:20>> [clears throat]
16:21>> Um and I guess that idea that they it
16:23portrays is those heads kind of going
16:25down again and again on the ships as
16:27it's going through the cavern.
16:28>> is why they've got to row as fast as
16:30they can to get through.
16:32>> Okay. And so, they lose quite a few men
16:35>> Yeah. So, he loses six men on on his way
16:38through. Yeah. Um and at this point, I'm
16:40pretty sure he's only down to one ship
16:42left uh of the ships that he had. So,
16:44you know, we're already quite low on
16:46men. Um and that's kind of the point at
16:48which they land kind of on their final
16:49stop, which is the island of Thrinacia
16:52um and the cattle of the sun.
16:53>> And that's interesting also as a
16:54throwback to our first episode. You
16:56mentioned the first things that he does
16:58after leaving Troy is sack a few cities,
17:01take, you know,
17:02take women as war booty, quite frankly,
17:05as captives and the like. So, you have
17:07to imagine at the beginning, you know,
17:08there are several boats full of men, but
17:10also captives as well.
17:11>> Yeah. Yeah.
17:13>> All of them, apart from one ship, have
17:15been lost by this stage in the journey.
17:17>> Absolutely. That's exactly right. And
17:19also, you know, these are if we think
17:20about the men the men who have come from
17:22Ithaca, these are men whose mothers
17:24whose sisters whose wives sent them off
17:26to war and have been waiting for 20
17:28years for them to come home and then
17:30Odysseus basically kind of does a trade
17:32with Scylla and he's like, well, I need
17:33to get through here to get to Ithaca and
17:35you know, these are the men I'm going to
17:36lose. So, you've got to think about what
17:38the people of Ithaca are going to think
17:40when Odysseus returns. And this is why
17:42it's so dangerous for him to return to
17:44Ithaca when he takes so long to kind of
17:46return and it makes sure that everyone's
17:48on his side when he does kind of all of
17:49that disguise, it's because he has lost
17:51all of these people.
17:52>> Oh, fair enough.
17:54So, for those on that one ship who have
17:56survived Scylla, is it Scylla or Scylla?
17:59>> Either, whichever you prefer. It's Yeah,
18:01it's Scylla Scylla.
18:02>> [laughter]
18:03>> Scylla. Where do they end up next?
18:05>> Yeah. So, the next and kind of final
18:07stop which Circe has told them about is
18:09the island of the Sun God's cattle
18:11called Thrinacia.
18:13And basically Circe has told Odysseus
18:16that the kind of one and only thing that
18:18they need to make sure not to do is not
18:20to eat the cattle of the Sun God.
18:22>> And the Sun God is Helios not Apollo or
18:24>> That is right. So, basically the kind of
18:26they're old gods of the kind of the what
18:28we call the Titans, the kind of the
18:30early order of gods and Helios is one of
18:32those. Apollo then later as a kind of
18:34new god becomes kind of the Sun God, but
18:37Helios is the old Sun God.
18:39Yeah, so these are his his kind of
18:40special cattle and they're just meant to
18:41leave them alone. Now, what's really
18:43interesting and we didn't talk about
18:44this earlier, but in one episode of the
18:46Odyssey as he's relating his travels
18:49earlier, Odysseus talks about an island
18:51that he went to the island of Aeolus the
18:53king of the winds
18:55and he essentially is the person who
18:56governs the north wind, west wind, south
18:58wind, east. He is the one who can make
19:00sure you get home.
19:01>> deal for sailors, right?
19:03>> for someone like Odysseus. And of
19:04course, in that episode, he very kindly
19:07kind of makes sure that Odysseus has
19:08exactly the wind that he needs and he
19:10leaves that out and the others he pops
19:12them in a bag, ties up the bag, and
19:15tells Odysseus not to undo the bag. And
19:17Odysseus, guarding that bag on his ship,
19:20falls asleep. And of course, what do his
19:21crew do? They think it's full of
19:23treasure. They open the bag, and
19:25Odysseus gets blown all the way back to
19:27the island of the winds. So, this is a
19:30very similar situation where we've got
19:32this moment where, okay, the hero has
19:34been told he can't do this. If he does
19:36this, it's going to be ruined.
19:37And what do the crew do? Of course, they
19:39do it anyway.
19:40>> So, does this reflect badly on Odysseus
19:41that he can't control his men, or is
19:44this very much a thing that Odysseus did
19:46all that he could,
19:48but he couldn't control his men?
19:50>> I think at this point it is more of the
19:52latter. I think it's more that, um,
19:54you know, they are kind of consigning
19:56themselves to their fate. Um, you know,
19:57that he does kind of try to warn them.
19:59Uh, this has already been said and it
20:01kind of outlined to them as something
20:03that will be really fatal if they do it.
20:05And, uh, they just kind of go ahead and
20:07do it. So, I think at this point we are
20:08seeing a leader who is, uh, really kind
20:10of battling to get his his crew home.
20:12And just he just can't resist, uh, kind
20:14of the cruel workings of fate,
20:16essentially.
20:16>> So, he sees them cooking up the cattle.
20:19>> Yeah.
20:19>> Um,
20:20>> And this is horrible scene where, as
20:21they cook, they sort of make this these
20:22sort of mooing sounds as they're being
20:24cooked. It's it's really really kind of
20:26disturbing.
20:27>> And, uh,
20:28does Helios come with the vengeance
20:30right there and then whilst they're
20:31still on shore? I mean, how does that
20:33divine punishment, that divine
20:35vengeance, that, let's be honest, we
20:37know is coming,
20:38>> Yeah.
20:39>> it delivered?
20:40>> Yeah, well, it's delivered as it often
20:41is in a storm.
20:42>> It's a storm.
20:42>> Yeah. So, you know, blown off, uh, the
20:44the island again, you know, can't get
20:46back home. Everyone wrecked, um, apart
20:49from Odysseus. Um, and, uh, yeah, as
20:51he's in that storm, he gets blown back
20:53into, uh, Scylla and Charybdis. And at
20:55this point he goes back to Charybdis.
20:56>> Ah.
20:57>> He's all by himself. He's hanging over
20:59the whirlpool, uh, holding onto a fig
21:01tree that that is kind of extending over
21:03the whirlpool, and manages to get
21:04himself sort of just climb out of that,
21:06hold onto to bit of driftwood, and that
21:08is the point at which he washes up on
21:10Calypso's island.
21:11>> And how is he described as he holds onto
21:13that bit of wood?
21:13>> So, when he's holding on, he's described
21:15as holding on like a bat.
21:16>> Like a bat. I had no idea about this
21:18until you mentioned just before we
21:19started recording, but that is a funny,
21:21uh, simile.
21:22>> Oh, I love it cuz I just feel like it's
21:24that kind of sense of just kind of
21:25clinging with your claws to the branch.
21:27It's sort of maybe also that sense of
21:28maybe being sort of, slightly sort of
21:30topsy-turvy, upside down, and just sort
21:32of, um, but also, you know, that sort of
21:33sense of the creature of the night. So,
21:35I think there's a lot of sort of
21:36darkness to this this episode in
21:38Odysseus's life where he doesn't know,
21:40um, whether he's going to live or die.
21:41And in fact, if we're thinking about
21:43bats, when the suitors were way, way,
21:45way at the end of the Odyssey, are
21:46described as being killed, they go to
21:49the underworld squeaking like bats. So,
21:52we've got bats as kind of here as sort
21:54of maybe Odysseus is quite close to
21:55getting killed, and it's just he just
21:57gets out of it. He gets onto Calypso's
21:59island, and of course, that is actually
22:01where we start the Odyssey. Uh, we start
22:03the Odyssey right in the middle of the
22:04action. Um, the the kind of term we use
22:06for this is in medias res, in the middle
22:08of the action we start on Calypso's
22:10island. So, that story, that kind of
22:12narration that Odysseus has given us of
22:14his travels, it ends with the point that
22:16we started the Odyssey.
22:17>> And and and just as you said there, so
22:19actually, what we've been talking about
22:22with the Cyclops and Circe in the last
22:23episode, with the Sirens, Scylla and
22:25Charybdis, and the cattle in this
22:26episode, all of that in the story is
22:29coming from Odysseus's mouth that he is
22:31retelling to a king and queen and a
22:34princess that he's met along the way.
22:37Is it now, when we get to Calypso's
22:39island, that it goes out of that?
22:41>> Exactly. We switch out, and he says,
22:43right, you know, I'm going to finish my
22:44story here, and that's the point where
22:46we then kind of move from Odysseus's
22:48narration of his adventures into, okay,
22:50well, what happens next? We are now
22:52sitting on the island of the Phaeacians.
22:54We are, you know, as close as we think
22:56we can get to getting back to Ithaca.
22:58They have very good ships. We know this,
23:00we've been told this. Um, and all he
23:02needs from them is a ship, and if they
23:04give that, then Ithaca might once again
23:06be within sight.
23:07>> I think let's briefly recap Calypso
23:08because she's such an amazing figure
23:10that we should. Um, because does it also
23:11feel
23:13that that part of the story, when he's
23:14lost all of his crew, when he's been
23:16hanging like a bat, when he's washed up,
23:18no ship, nothing left on the island of
23:21Calypso, is it fair to say that this is
23:23the lowest point for Odysseus?
23:25>> I mean there have been many low points.
23:27>> I know, that's why I say the the lowest
23:28maybe.
23:29>> But I think you're right that it's the
23:30lowest, um, because he's lost his crew.
23:33And you know, that's why I would say,
23:34you know, we talked about the island of
23:36the winds, where that must have felt so
23:37difficult, like the fact that they were
23:38actually within sight of Ithaca.
23:40>> Oh, they could see Ithaca.
23:41>> it. Um, and that's when the men opened
23:43the bag of the winds. So, you know,
23:44there have been moments of real kind of
23:46tragedy, but I think here, because he's
23:48lost all of his men, and he's kind of
23:49really failed in giving them that
23:51homecoming, and he's no closer to
23:53getting home himself. I think, yeah,
23:54there is probably a real desperation
23:56there, and it's it's why, kind of as the
23:57Odyssey opens, um, when we first see him
24:00on on Calypso's island, we see him
24:01sitting on the shore and weeping, and
24:03uh, this really kind of emotive view of
24:05a man who's just kind of longing to get
24:07home.
24:07>> And so, enter Calypso. Who is Calypso,
24:10and what does she do with Odysseus when
24:11he ends up stranded on her island?
24:14>> Well, so she's a nymph. Uh, she is, uh,
24:16you know,
24:17a goddess, uh, immortal goddess. She
24:19lives alone on this island called
24:20Ogygia, um, and she essentially kind of
24:23brings him in, uh, she gives him kind of
24:25food and drink, as you would to kind of
24:27a guest, uh, but they also sleep
24:29together. Uh, and they end up kind of,
24:31uh,
24:32spending seven years together, uh, of
24:34the his voyage of his return. So, a
24:36long, long time that Odysseus is there.
24:38Now, Odysseus's version, and I feel
24:40like, you know, it's it's important we
24:41label it Odysseus's version, because we
24:43get a lot of this from Odysseus, is that
24:45she has been keeping him captive, and
24:47that he hasn't been able to leave, uh,
24:49because he didn't have the tools that he
24:51needed to make a raft, he didn't have a
24:52sail, um, and it is only when, after
24:56that seven-year period, Hermes then
24:58comes down from Zeus, uh, which is where
25:00we start the Odyssey, it's only then
25:02that Odysseus is allowed to get free.
25:04>> Because this is of course this is post
25:06the event that's made him realize that
25:07he needs to get home. And we covered in
25:09the last episode how the first time he
25:10visits Circe it's almost like he forgets
25:13and he he doesn't have that purpose yet
25:14because he hasn't
25:15had the prophecy from the underworld.
25:18Is there actually yeah yes yeah fair
25:20enough it is Odysseus's version but
25:22could there be more truth or at least
25:24belief behind the story that like he did
25:26want to get off the island he simply
25:27just couldn't for seven whole years?
25:29>> Yeah, I mean that there is definitely
25:30kind of a sense of that kind of that
25:32desperation in that like you know if
25:33you're in the middle of the
25:34Mediterranean Sea on an island and you
25:36don't have the means to build a boat
25:38like it is really really hard to get
25:39off. Um
25:40at the same time you know we also see
25:42Calypso in the Odyssey professing kind
25:45of the fact that she would love for
25:46Odysseus to stay and that she would make
25:48him immortal if he would stay with her.
25:49So she obviously also has a vested
25:51interest in this. So so yes I think we
25:53can kind of see Odysseus as someone who
25:55um
25:56you know really was kind of wanting to
25:57get off. On the other hand you know kind
25:59of you know he hasn't seven years of of
26:01sex with Calypso you know [laughter] I
26:02mean he he hasn't struggled that hard
26:04has he?
26:05>> not been too bad has it?
26:06So in regards to years-wise I mean how
26:08many years have we now covered from
26:11well Odysseus leaving Ithaca to go for
26:14the Trojan War which is that's 10 years.
26:15>> got 10 years there yeah.
26:16>> And then up to him now reaching the
26:19island of the Phae- the Phaeacians the
26:21Phaeacians or however you say it after
26:22he leaves Calypso's island. How many
26:24more years have we covered since then?
26:25>> Um so we basically have got um seven
26:28years with Calypso we've got one year
26:30with Circe uh that he's done on the way
26:32and then kind of the rest of it is
26:33probably puzzled together from all of
26:34those different stop-offs that he does
26:36on his way and by the time we're kind of
26:38in the 20th year that's the point at
26:40which he then kind of finally gets back
26:42to Ithaca.
26:42>> And is this the next part of the story?
26:45So
26:45>> Yeah.
26:46>> he's done his retelling to this king
26:48who's given them and the queen who as
26:50you said actually seems to be making
26:52them all of the decisions.
26:53And now he has the
26:55fresh ship, the transport to finally get
26:58back home, the return.
27:00>> Yeah, the return is about to happen, and
27:02that's why, you know, the the Phaeacians
27:04are so important to him because they are
27:06the moment where he suddenly gets this
27:09ship that is going to take him back to
27:10Ithaca. And not just that, but these are
27:12kind of magic ships because they can
27:15move by themselves, and they go, the
27:17poet says, as swift as a thought. So,
27:19the kind of idea is you just kind of
27:21think where you want to go, and they'll
27:22they'll just take you there. So, real
27:23kind of proper magic ships. And he falls
27:25asleep. Of course, he kind of falls
27:27asleep. You're in this kind of moment
27:28where you're transitioning between the
27:29fantasy world and then the world of
27:31Ithaca. And when he wakes up, they've
27:34put him on the shore of Ithaca, and
27:36they've put all of his treasure in a
27:37cave, and a mist has kind of been cast
27:39over the land, and at first he's not
27:40really sure where he's got to. And he
27:42thinks, "Oh my gosh, I've maybe I've
27:43gone to a different island. You know,
27:45I'm I'm not back in my island, Ithaca."
27:48And it's kind of a moment of of real
27:49worry for him.
27:50>> But of course, it's not the end of the
27:51story,
27:53and the gods will still play a big role
27:54in what will happen next. First off, I
27:56want to ask about Poseidon,
27:58>> Mhm.
27:58>> god of the sea, because he's not best
28:00pleased with Odysseus since killing his
28:02his son, Polyphemus. Is that his son?
28:04>> right. Yeah.
28:05>> Yeah, so so he's been, obviously god of
28:06the sea, making sure he can't get home.
28:08>> Yeah.
28:09>> When he finds out that Odysseus has been
28:11helped, has actually got home, is he
28:13still angry with Odysseus?
28:14>> He is very angry. Yeah, so Poseidon has
28:17a long grudge against Odysseus because
28:20of the blinding of his son, the Cyclops
28:22Polyphemus. And of course, the Cyclops
28:25cursed Odysseus, so Poseidon takes this
28:27very seriously. The fact that the
28:28Phaeacians have done this is seen as a
28:30massive insult to him.
28:32Now, Odysseus at this point is, in fact,
28:35although he doesn't know it, safely back
28:36on Ithaca.
28:37And at this point, Poseidon, I think, as
28:39god of the sea, realizes that's kind of
28:41the end of his jurisdiction. But what he
28:44does do is he takes out his anger
28:46against the Phaeacians who helped
28:48Odysseus. And so when their ship gets
28:50back into the harbor of the Phaeacians,
28:53it's an extraordinary moment where he
28:54sort of slams his hand against the side
28:57of the ship and it gets turned to stone.
28:59>> Gosh.
29:00And everyone on board gets turned to
29:02stone?
29:02>> Yeah, and it's it's a really kind of
29:03horrible moment of basically kind of him
29:06like interdicting this seafaring nation
29:08and just sort of but but what's also fun
29:10to go back to kind of what you were
29:11saying about where we'll places might
29:13be. There are many rocks kind of in the
29:17the islands around that kind of that
29:18area particularly Corfu that kind of
29:20maybe look like ships and that people
29:22have thought well maybe that is the the
29:24kind of rock that people thought was a
29:26ship turned into stone from the Titans.
29:28>> Right. Okay. So the key episodes have
29:30been
29:32from where we start so
29:34Underworld, Circe, Sirens, Scylla and
29:37Charybdis, Calypso.
29:39>> Phaeacians.
29:40>> Phaeacians.
29:41Ithaca.
29:42>> That's right. So we are finally now,
29:44thanks to the magic ships, we are
29:46finally on Ithaca.
29:47Um and we're kind of just about past the
29:49kind of halfway point of the narrative.
29:51So, you know, as we said, we've got
29:53still kind of a good 12 or so books um
29:56to to get us into that point where
29:57Odysseus feels like he can kind of be
29:59certain enough that he can kind of start
30:01to stage the comeback as it were. But at
30:03this point he's really got to start
30:05gathering his allies around him.
30:07>> And which divine allies does he have?
30:10Not just in the mortal realm.
30:11>> Yeah, well the first one is a really
30:13important divine ally cuz you've got to
30:14get the gods on your side if you're in
30:16the ancient world. And the first one is
30:17Athena.
30:18>> It's Athena.
30:18>> Yeah. And so Athena, she's she's sort of
30:20been the patron of Odysseus the whole
30:22way through. We saw her coming into
30:24Olympus right at the beginning and
30:25making sure that he got freed from
30:27Calypso's island. And it is her now in
30:29this second half of the narrative who
30:31comes to Odysseus personally and
30:34basically reveals herself to him,
30:36reveals the island, she lifts the mist
30:38off in a kind of beautiful moment of
30:39revelation. And Odysseus suddenly sees
30:42that he is back on his homeland of
30:43Ithaca again.
30:44>> So, he sees and from then on as she
30:47knows that Odysseus still has got a lot
30:48to do because he's returning on his own.
30:50>> Yeah.
30:51>> They're conversing together as well.
30:53That's another key part of the story.
30:54So, what do they decide is the next step
30:56for Odysseus?
30:57>> Well, they basically decide that he
30:58needs to approach this in stages. So,
31:01it's really important that he doesn't
31:02kind of just storm into the palace say,
31:04you know, I'm here, I'm home.
31:06>> I'm back. Yes.
31:07>> Exactly. Because, you know, well, would
31:08people believe him? It's been a long
31:10time. He's obviously changed. And
31:12there's also the kind of the fact of all
31:13of the people that he's lost on the way.
31:16There's the fact he doesn't even know
31:17who is loyal to him anymore after 20
31:19years. Do they all believe he's dead? Is
31:20Penelope even loyal anymore? So, he's
31:23got to kind of approach this in stages
31:24and gather his allies around him. So,
31:26what Athena does is a really important
31:28moment of kind of the narrative is that
31:30she transforms him so that he looks like
31:32a beggar, like an old homeless kind of
31:35poor man. And that's really important
31:37for him because that kind of changes his
31:39status. It makes him kind of at the
31:41lowest level of the social hierarchy,
31:43and that's what will slowly allow him to
31:45then climb his way back up to becoming
31:47king again.
31:48>> So, he's been transformed into a beggar.
31:50And then he starts walking towards the
31:53palace itself. I mean, who does he meet
31:54along the way?
31:55>> Yeah. So, on his way he meets a really
31:57key figure, Eumaeus.
31:58>> Eumaeus, yes.
31:59>> And Eumaeus is the swineherd. So, he's
32:01looking after the palace's pigs.
32:04He is an enslaved person. So, like a
32:07very kind of faithful to Odysseus,
32:09faithful to the palace. And Odysseus
32:11knows that, but he's obviously got to
32:12kind of test his loyalty. So, coming in
32:15as an old beggar, he basically asks for
32:18his hospitality. And Eumaeus, who's, you
32:20know, one of the good guys, makes sure
32:21that he shows him good hospitality and
32:23gives him a a nice little meal of some
32:24some piglets.
32:25>> And how yes, how does that interaction
32:27play out? What does Odysseus ask him to
32:29get a a sense of the lie of the land as
32:31it is?
32:31>> Yeah. Well, so he wants to first of all
32:33find out what's happening up at the
32:34palace. So, So wants to know kind of
32:35what's the situation with the suitors,
32:37what's the situation with Telemachus,
32:39with Odysseus's son, with Penelope. Um
32:41and he also kind of sets up this uh
32:43false identity as it were of his his
32:46past, which is one of what we call these
32:48Cretan tales.
32:49>> Cretan tales, right?
32:50>> Cretan tales, yeah. So each of these
32:52there are three different times where he
32:53pretends to be somebody from Crete. Uh
32:55the first time he's done it is to Athena
32:58uh cuz he wasn't quite sure who she was
32:59at first. So he he said one of these
33:01little lies where he pretends that he's
33:02got this background
33:04um with Crete. The second time to
33:05Eumaeus and then he does another one
33:07later on to Penelope.
33:08>> Now meanwhile Athena's helping with
33:10Odysseus, but in the last chapter we
33:12also covered how
33:14there's also this adventure of
33:15Odysseus's son, Telemachus. He's gone to
33:18find out more about what's happened to
33:19his dad, visited other kind of key
33:21figures of the Trojan War who have made
33:22it home like Nestor and Menelaus, king
33:25of Sparta, and so on.
33:27But for Athena is Telemachus on Ithaca
33:29at that time or does he need to get back
33:31to Ithaca? So
33:32>> Yeah. He needs to get back and there's a
33:33serious kind of jeopardy here because uh
33:35Telemachus is obviously quite seriously
33:37hated by the suitors who
33:40want Penelope's hand and quite clearly
33:42want him out of the way because he's a
33:44potential heir once he kind of becomes a
33:46man. So uh what's happened is he is now
33:49he started off with Pylos, he then went
33:51to Sparta um and on his way back they
33:54are very much planning to ambush him. Um
33:57and so he is in serious kind of danger
33:59at at this at this point in terms of the
34:01ambush. But at the point where Odysseus
34:02has landed on Ithaca, he is still kind
34:04of about to make his way back. So again,
34:06we've got these two these father and son
34:08stories happening in parallel.
34:10>> Is there a moment where they both
34:11reunite?
34:11>> They do. So once Telemachus manages to
34:14get through that ambush, he he survives,
34:16he's okay. Um he first goes to Eumaeus's
34:19hut and who should be visiting there but
34:22the old beggar. So Odysseus at this
34:23point is in Eumaeus's hut. Uh Telemachus
34:26comes in and we've got this amazing
34:28moment where the father for the first
34:29time in 20 years gazes on his son again.
34:32um and he does reveal himself to
34:34Telemachus at this point. Make sure that
34:36he's got Telemachus on side. He's now
34:38sort of slowly building up his allies.
34:40>> And from there, you know, from that
34:42lowly swineherd's hut,
34:45is that where they start to to plan what
34:48they're going to do?
34:49>> is where the coup begins. Yeah.
34:50>> coup? And it's funny that you say a
34:51coup, because this is
34:54is it how it's portrayed? I don't think
34:55it really in the late Bronze Age
34:57a kingdom or one of these states would
34:59have been happy for a king to be away
35:01for 20 years. But in this he is still
35:03the rightful king, and it's a coup to
35:05try and retake control of his palace
35:08>> Yeah.
35:08>> from the main enemy, who are who we
35:10should introduce now, the suitors.
35:11>> Absolutely. And certainly in Odysseus's
35:13mind, it's his rightful kingdom, right?
35:16We could argue about whether actually
35:17having been absent for 20 years it is
35:19anymore, but but in his mind it
35:22certainly is. So yeah, what we've got is
35:24this kind of major thorn in Odysseus's
35:26side, which are these these hundred and
35:29or so men who are kind of sitting in his
35:32palace, eating all of his food, you
35:34know, kind of get making their way
35:36through all of his livestock,
35:37impoverishing the palace, drinking his
35:39wine, behaving really, really badly and
35:42loutishly, and also kind of trying to
35:45force Penelope, his wife, to basically
35:47admit that Odysseus has died and that
35:49she's going to take a new husband and
35:51that that husband will be the king of
35:52Ithaca. So for Odysseus this is a
35:54massive threat, and he's got to make
35:56sure that he gets there in time before
35:58Penelope basically gives up the ghost
35:59and says, "Okay, I'm going to choose one
36:01of you."
36:02>> Emily, we're getting towards the end
36:04now, the final big climax, the final big
36:05showdown.
36:07And I feel before we get to that, we
36:09haven't kind of mentioned the suitors as
36:12the key enemy for Odysseus on his
36:15homecoming.
36:16But do we hear much about who they
36:18actually are? Do they get a lot of
36:19character development in the in the
36:22Odyssey?
36:23>> Yeah, well we do get some of them who
36:24kind of really stick out, and some of
36:26them are given sort of characterization.
36:27So yes, there are a lot of them, but um
36:30one of them above all I think probably
36:31is the leader and that's Antinous.
36:33>> Antinous, yeah.
36:34>> Yeah, and that's quite fun because his
36:35name means - os, which is the noose bit
36:38at the end, that means thought or mind,
36:41and anti means against. So he's a sort
36:43of plotter against, he's someone who can
36:45think in response and against your every
36:48move, and that's obviously exactly what
36:50someone like Odysseus is going to be
36:51extremely threatened by because he's a
36:53bit cunning and crafty. Um so Antinous
36:56and all of the other men, they are a a
36:57real threat to Odysseus um and that is
36:59basically what he, as he's gathering
37:01these various different allies and
37:02factions, he's working out who is
37:04faithful to him and who is faithful to
37:06the suitors.
37:07>> Interesting. And is Antinous can you see
37:09that he's kind of
37:11he's scheming at the same time? You
37:12mentioned that attempt to ambush
37:14Telemachus as well. So it's not very
37:17much he's just a lounging about in the
37:19palace all the time. He's also very much
37:21thinking about how to make the next
37:23move.
37:23>> Absolutely, and the intimidation of
37:25Telemachus at the beginning and then the
37:27outright kind of attempt to to kill him
37:29is very much a part of this kind of
37:30escalation that the suitors are engaging
37:33in. Of course, that will end in the fact
37:34that Penelope does ultimately decide
37:36that she's going to have a marriage
37:37contest. So the suitors at that point
37:39think they really, you know, their their
37:41tactics have worked. They've been kind
37:42of scaling up and they're about to marry
37:44Penelope in their minds.
37:45>> And how had Penelope been keeping off
37:49the suitors up to that point?
37:51>> this is the famous trick that Penelope
37:53engages in and we've been talking a lot
37:55about kind of the cunning of Odysseus,
37:57but I think it's important that we also
37:58recognize and acknowledge the immense
38:00cunning of Penelope um who is in many
38:02ways kind of a foil for Odysseus in
38:04terms of kind of just how smart she is
38:06and how she's able to kind of outwit the
38:08suitors. So um we learn multiple times
38:11through the poem that Penelope has come
38:13up with this amazing ruse in order to
38:16kind of fend off the suitors cuz, you
38:17know, we're looking at a a lot of years
38:19that she's had to kind of keep them at
38:21bay and uh for for multiple years, one
38:24of the things that she said she would do
38:25was that when she had finished weaving
38:27this funeral shroud uh for Laertes, that
38:30that's Odysseus's father, and then at
38:32that point she would marry a suitor. So,
38:34she's given them an end point. However,
38:36what they don't know, of course, is that
38:38every night she is unweaving whatever
38:40she has woven during the day. And in so
38:42doing for uh about 4 years, she manages
38:45to fend off the suitors. Um now, it
38:47sounds, I think, uh for a modern
38:49audience, like, "Well, why would they
38:50have believed that she would take 4
38:51years to just kind of weave a funeral
38:53shroud?" But in fact, these could have
38:55been very kind of intricate, complex
38:57garments. They could have had uh
38:58figurative scenes on them. So, in fact,
39:00if Penelope was taking a lot of time, I
39:02think that's probably not something that
39:03would have surprised them. Of course,
39:04ultimately, they do find out.
39:06>> out, do they? How is it revealed?
39:08>> Well, it's one of the enslaved women, in
39:10fact, who who kind of uh uh passes the
39:12message on.
39:13>> And these enslaved women in the palace,
39:16uh are they very much portrayed as being
39:18in the team of the suitors? I mean, what
39:20do we know cuz you know, whether it's
39:23sexual assault or the are they being
39:24very much complicit with the suitors?
39:26>> Yeah, I mean, with the enslaved women, I
39:28think it's really difficult because in
39:30the way that they are being conceived of
39:32at the time in this poetry, they are
39:35definitely being seen of as kind of the
39:36property of Odysseus. And so, for him,
39:39that's the real issue is that when the
39:42suitors have kind of committed sexual
39:43assault against these women, they've
39:45also kind of assaulted his property. And
39:47for him, that's a real issue. So, in
39:49Odysseus's mind, they are absolutely
39:52team suitors because at that point,
39:54they've kind of gone over to that side.
39:56In terms of what they were doing and
39:58what they thought, um I think that's a
39:59lot harder to say. Um whether they're
40:01given any agency in that, I I very much
40:03doubt. Um there is one woman who's
40:06called Melantho, who is very much
40:08painted as kind of a woman who has gone
40:11over to the side of the suitors. Uh but
40:13of course, again, in part, that's
40:14because Odysseus is very much thinking
40:16that way.
40:16>> Good to cover the suitors in a bit more
40:18depth as we have now to kind of
40:19understand what Odysseus is arriving
40:22into.
40:23So So, can you paint that scene for us
40:25now? So, he's got Telemachus by his
40:27side, Eumaeus as well.
40:29>> Yeah.
40:29>> Are there any other allies with him as
40:31he enters the palace? What do we know
40:33about this particular part?
40:34>> So, there's another ally, a goatherd
40:36>> A goatherd?
40:37>> called, I believe, Philoetius,
40:38um who joins the crew on the way. And
40:41then you've got the the good goatherd
40:43and the bad goatherd. Bad goatherd is
40:44Melanthius, who we already measured
40:46measured up. Um so, we've got, you know,
40:48this sort of growing posse around
40:50Odysseus as he's going up to the palace.
40:52Um and then once he reaches the palace,
40:54uh there he's kind of disguised as a
40:56beggar. He comes in. He is very badly
40:58treated by the suitors, uh who are not
41:00pleased to see an old beggar kicking
41:02around the palace. In fact, they already
41:03have an old beggar at the palace, who
41:05also doesn't want to have a rival. And
41:07so, they get into a bit of a scuffle.
41:08>> And so, he arrives in the palace as an
41:10old beggar.
41:12For what purpose? Because otherwise,
41:14you're thinking
41:15Well, why have Yeah, if you're in the
41:16eyes of the suitors, why has this old
41:18beggar just decided been welcomed into
41:20this palace?
41:20>> Yeah. Well, again, what he's doing is
41:22he's sort of closing the circle of where
41:25he's trying to get to, which is
41:26ultimately getting into the palace and
41:27getting to Penelope. So, he's just
41:29inching closer and closer to his goal.
41:32Um it is obviously quite kind of
41:33tactically quite dangerous because he is
41:35being seen as kind of the very bottom
41:37rung of of society. Uh he gets things
41:40thrown at him. As I say, he ends up kind
41:42of having this this scuffle with with
41:43the other beggar, whose name is Irus. Um
41:45so, it's all not very dignified uh for
41:47Odysseus. But what kind of ends up
41:49happening is that then you know, they
41:52step in and say, "Well, this isn't
41:54okay." And he ends up getting being
41:56drawn into that circle, that inner
41:57circle of the Ithacan palace. And that
41:59is the point where then Penelope orders
42:02that he has a bath by Eurycleia, the old
42:05nursemaid.
42:06>> And is this where he is recognized?
42:08>> This is where he's recognized. And this
42:10is a moment which is so fascinating
42:12because he is running out of control in
42:14terms of his ability to control the
42:17recognition. Cuz all of the other ones,
42:19he was the one who said, you know, I'm
42:20Odysseus revealing himself. But at this
42:22point, where he has a foot bath and
42:25Eurycleia, the old enslaved nurse,
42:28washes his feet, and she sees a scar on
42:31his leg that she recognizes from the
42:34young Odysseus that he had in a boar
42:36hunting accident when he was a boy. And
42:38she suddenly realizes this is her old
42:40master.
42:40>> So does Eurycleia is she team Odysseus
42:43or team suitors? Does she give him up?
42:45>> She's absolutely team Odysseus. I mean,
42:47she basically both breastfed Odysseus
42:50and she breastfed Telemachus. So she's
42:52been the wet nurse for both of them the
42:54men in the family. So she is she is born
42:56and bred absolutely in that family. Um,
42:58she is an enslaved person within the
43:00family, but we're we're given to
43:01understand that she is very much kind of
43:03a well-treated enslaved woman within
43:05within Odysseus's household. And she
43:08absolutely she is overjoyed that
43:09Odysseus has come home. Um, however, she
43:12kind of wants to shout it out. She's
43:13really really excited about this. And
43:15Odysseus is very keen that she doesn't
43:18give the game away. And so he really is
43:19quite kind of stern with her and you
43:21know, old woman, you know, you cannot
43:23give this up. You cannot tell anybody.
43:25So Eurycleia is not even allowed to tell
43:27Penelope at this point that Odysseus is
43:29home.
43:29>> But she has joined the team Odysseus
43:31alongside the swineherd Eumaeus.
43:33>> Absolutely has.
43:33>> Uh, Philoetius.
43:35>> Exactly.
43:35>> Uh, Telemachus. So that the allies are
43:36growing. Um, so does Odysseus have a
43:39name? Does he says does he call himself
43:42anything as he's the beggar? Does anyone
43:44even ask him his name?
43:45>> So he has multiple different stories and
43:47this is what we heard with the Cretan
43:48tales. So these are all of his sort of
43:50little Cretan stories. Uh, in some of
43:52them, uh, he is Cretan, in others he's
43:55blown off course and lands on Crete. Uh,
43:57so he has a different shifting identity
43:59>> Okay.
43:59>> each time, which is very Odyssean that
44:01his disguise is kind of never really
44:03pinned down. It's not like he's going
44:05through this with one name, you know,
44:06he's different to everybody he talks to.
44:08And of course the next person he talks
44:10to is in fact Penelope.
44:12>> So this is like this is quite emotional.
44:14This is
44:15poignant part of the story where he in
44:17disguise is talking to his wife.
44:19>> It really is and it's the first time
44:21that he has really kind of had a chat
44:23with her for 20 years and they're
44:25sitting down talking together and
44:27now whether she recognizes him or not,
44:30that's left open and I think it's part
44:31of the beauty of the poetry that it is
44:33left open. It's up to you essentially to
44:35decide whether you think Penelope
44:37recognized him or not. She makes several
44:39sort of coy remarks. One that I
44:40particularly like is, "Oh beggar, your
44:42hands look so similar to those of my
44:44husband."
44:46>> [laughter]
44:46>> Um so you know, whether she's sort of
44:47indicating that perhaps she does know
44:49that it's him. Uh she mentions to him
44:51this dream that she's had that she had
44:53some geese, 20 geese that she really,
44:55really loved and then an eagle came in
44:57and killed them all and she asks him to
44:59interpret it and he interprets that
45:02Odysseus is coming home soon and he is
45:04going to slaughter the suitors.
45:05>> Oh and it it
45:07slaughter is
45:08>> Yeah, yeah, it's been
45:11that this is happening.
45:12>> that he's not going to not going to be
45:13thrown out. They're going to be killed
45:15right here.
45:15>> Absolutely. And he's told Penelope that
45:17that's happening.
45:18>> And she's quite excited for that.
45:19>> Well, you know, she's she basically says
45:21she wishes that it were true but she's
45:23not sure if she can believe anymore that
45:24Odysseus is going to come home. And now
45:26this is the point where we're sort of
45:28hanging in uncertainty as the audience
45:30where not knowing well does Penelope
45:32actually even realize that she's sitting
45:34right opposite her [laughter] husband?
45:36And at this kind of incredible point of
45:38narrative tension, she decides to set a
45:40contest for her hand in marriage.
45:43>> And right, so
45:45but almost so it sounds like spurred on
45:47by this hope that Odysseus will return.
45:51It's the creation of this contest. Why?
45:54>> Well, is it the hope that he will return
45:56or is it the fact that actually she's
45:58been faced up with Odysseus giving her
46:00this prediction that Odysseus will come
46:02home And she just absolutely just says,
46:03"Well, actually, no. I don't believe it.
46:05It can't happen." Maybe she's completely
46:07given up. We don't know. But, it is
46:09rather brilliant that it happens at the
46:11time that Odysseus is in the palace, and
46:13he is right there, ready to go. And she
46:15sets up this contest.
46:16>> Because what is this contest?
46:18>> Well, we've had a lot of debate about
46:20this in scholarship about what exactly
46:22is happening. But, what she does is she
46:24sets up a row of axes. And in that row
46:27of axes, there are at some point some
46:29holes. That probably this is somewhere
46:31around either the socket or it's
46:33somewhere kind of in the center of the
46:34axe. We don't need to be too specific
46:36about it. But, there are some holes.
46:38At the same time, Odysseus has a bow, a
46:40really kind of old heroic style bow and
46:44that only he used to be able to string.
46:46You had to be really, really strong to
46:48be able to string these these old bows.
46:50And so, she's saying that whoever will
46:52be able to string his bow and will be
46:54able to shoot an arrow through those
46:56axes, through those holes, will be her
46:58husband.
46:59>> And so, the I guess the
47:02ambiguity there is whether she's doing
47:04that
47:05to find if someone could be as good as
47:07Odysseus
47:08or is it the hope that Odysseus will be
47:11among them
47:12as the Allah prophet, aka the prophecy,
47:15and will be able to show it through the
47:17wielding of the bow itself.
47:18>> Exactly. So, is she replacing him or is
47:20she giving him a chance to prove
47:21himself?
47:22>> Interesting. Okay. And do we get to that
47:25contest straight away or is there more
47:26mingling of old beggar Odysseus with the
47:29suitors so we get even more of a a bad
47:31vibe of the suitors?
47:32>> Yeah. So, there's plenty of kind of bad
47:34vibe of the suitors [laughter] to make
47:35sure that we know that they really
47:36[clears throat] earned their what's
47:37coming to them. Yeah. No, absolutely.
47:38>> Yeah.
47:39>> yeah. No, absolutely. Um but, yeah. So,
47:41we we then sort of move up as the kind
47:43of, you know, narrative is kind of the
47:44narrative tension is ramping up. We move
47:46into that contest. We've been positioned
47:48the suitors definitely the bad guys.
47:50We've got Odysseus in place in the
47:52palace. We've got Penelope setting up
47:54the contest of the bow. She's been told
47:56Odysseus might come home. And now
47:57everyone's waiting and watching what's
47:59going to happen next.
48:00>> Bringing back into the kernels of truth
48:02of the real Bronze Age world in which
48:03this story is set. Do we have any idea
48:06like in the late Bronze Age time, this
48:08time of the the Mycenaeans, that archery
48:10contest or things like that were popular
48:13that might be like the origins of the
48:16one of these great stories?
48:17>> Yeah, well, there are several different
48:19theories about what might have been
48:20going on here. One that's really
48:21interesting is that we do see some kind
48:24of visual evidence from the period of
48:27sort of axe heads similar to kind of
48:29what is being described here with holes
48:31with kind of
48:32archery contests at them. There is
48:34visual suggestion that that might be
48:35happening. So, potentially there might
48:37be a kind of kernel of truth there. At
48:40the same time, we do see multiple
48:42different wall paintings of archery
48:44happening on walls, people going out on
48:46hunts and these kinds of things. So, you
48:47know, it's definitely something that is
48:49definitely not beyond
48:51doubt.
48:52>> And this is all happening in kind of the
48:53main area of the palace. So, we're
48:55thinking the kind of the main meeting
48:56area where the suitors are all gathered.
48:58>> Yeah, probably sort of the the courtyard
48:59that's at the heart of the palace, yeah.
49:01>> And so, how does the contest go? Who
49:04steps up first?
49:06>> Yeah, well, it's really interesting cuz
49:07of course the suitors are delighted by
49:09this because they think, you know, as we
49:11said, for them, they think they're
49:12winning. Okay, maybe their ambush on
49:14Telemachus didn't work, but, you know,
49:16we've got we've got an in, we've got a
49:18chance, and they definitely think they
49:19can do it. So, we've got of course
49:21Antinous, the leader of the suitors, who
49:23has his go.
49:24>> He goes first to see.
49:25>> I I'm pretty sure he goes first, yeah.
49:27But, he he definitely is keen to make
49:30sure that he can prove that he would be
49:32able to be a replacement for Odysseus.
49:34But, he cannot string the bow. So, he
49:36can't even do that kind of first step to
49:38be able to string the bow, let alone be
49:40able to shoot it through the axes. And
49:42then we get one after the other, we get
49:43all of the suitors kind of trying and
49:45failing, and each of them just can't do
49:47it. Finally, and this is interesting,
49:49Telemachus wants to have a go.
49:52Um, so Penelope and Odysseus's son, just
49:54on the edge of manhood, and it's really
49:57interesting because here we're seeing a
49:59replacement for Odysseus in a different
50:00way. We're seeing a son who could
50:02potentially replace the father. And he
50:04steps up and he almost strings the bow.
50:07>> How interesting.
50:08>> Yeah, and it's a nod from Odysseus that
50:10stops him from doing it.
50:11>> And is it also this idea of Telemachus,
50:13of course, he's not doing it to marry
50:15his mom, it's to protect his mom cuz
50:18>> Exactly. And to prove himself as sort of
50:20the natural successor to Odysseus. Yeah,
50:22exactly. Exactly. Um, so I think it's,
50:25you know, definitely a sign that
50:27Telemachus is on the edge of that point
50:29where he would be able to stand side by
50:31side with Odysseus and and claim the
50:32kingship. Of course, the fact that he
50:34doesn't do it then sets the scene for
50:36Odysseus disguised as the beggar to step
50:38in and say, "Well,
50:39can I have a go?"
50:40>> And but that Sorry, going on to
50:42Telemachus, that also makes sense cuz
50:43earlier in the story, he's conversing
50:45with Athena. She's saying, "Are you
50:47going to be quite like I see good things
50:50in you for the future. Like there is
50:52potential here." So once again, there's
50:53that that that that
50:55that motive, that portrayal continues
50:58that there is that Odysseus like he's
51:00going to reach the heights of his
51:01father, but not quite now. It's still
51:03Odysseus's time to shine.
51:04>> It is indeed. And we've had moments also
51:06when he met with Helen, Helen of Sparta,
51:08Helen of Troy, where she said, "You look
51:10so like Odysseus, you know?" So he's
51:13definitely being seen as following in
51:14Odysseus's footsteps. However, in order
51:17to kind of get on dad's side, there is
51:19something that he's got to do, and
51:20that's pretty horrific, which is the
51:22slaughter of the suitors, and he takes
51:24part in that. And it's almost his
51:25initiation into manhood, into the
51:27kingship of Ithaca, is if you're
51:29prepared to do this, then, you know,
51:30this is what you've got to do.
51:32>> All right. So Telemachus just doesn't
51:35string the bow.
51:37And who steps up next?
51:39>> An old beggar.
51:39>> An old beggar.
51:40>> And everyone's surprised. The suitors
51:42are sneering.
51:44Um, nobody thinks that an old beggar
51:46would have a chance of stringing the
51:48bow, let alone being Penelope's husband.
51:51However, he persuades them to let him
51:54have a go. Telemachus steps forward,
51:55says, "No, let him have it."
51:58And he reaches for the bow, and he
52:00strings it like a bard stringing a lyre.
52:03He sounds the string of the bow, and it
52:06sings out like a bird. An
52:07extraordinarily beautiful moment where
52:09Odysseus the bard has now become
52:11Odysseus the archer. He picks up the
52:15bow, and as he does so, the disguise
52:17sheds from him. He becomes Odysseus once
52:20more, and he shoots the arrow through
52:22the axes.
52:23And the slaughter of the suitors begins.
52:25>> Is Antinous the first to get the bullet,
52:27or should I say the arrow?
52:28>> Uh he is certainly one of the first. I
52:30can't remember if he's the very first.
52:32But he is certainly the person that
52:34Odysseus has his sights set on. Um and
52:37at this point, we then go straight into
52:39the action of um
52:41needing to get rid of the suitors.
52:43>> And and
52:44as morbid as it is, describe the
52:46slaughter. So, what do we hear from the
52:49Cuz I I can presume for this part of the
52:51Odyssey, it's not just And then he
52:52killed them all. I'm sure there's a bit
52:54more than that.
52:54>> No, there is more of it. I mean, you
52:56know, these are epics that were born in
52:58kind of glorifying warfare and
53:01preserving the memory of heroes who did
53:04some really bloody deeds. And I mean, if
53:05anyone's read any of the Iliad, you
53:07know, you'll know that there's plenty of
53:08kind of, you know, brains and blood and
53:10guts. So, absolutely, we're given quite
53:12a lot of detail. So, what Odysseus does
53:14is Remember, he's already got Eurycleia
53:16on his side. Eurycleia is an important
53:18player in this because she, as well as
53:21being the kind of enslaved nurse, she's
53:23also the housekeeper. She's got the keys
53:25to the storerooms. So, she's able to
53:27lock the doors. So, what she does is
53:29she's taken out all of the weapons from
53:31the hall.
53:31>> Ah.
53:32>> And she then locks the doors. So, the
53:34women are out, the men are in, and they
53:37cannot escape. And what ensues is
53:39essentially a bloodbath where the
53:41suitors completely unarmed are just um
53:44completely annihilated by
53:46>> much they're quite they're quite drunk.
53:47They're quite drunk as well, or yeah?
53:48>> Yeah, they're they're drunk. Uh you
53:49know, they've been also kind of lazing
53:51around in Ithaca for 20 years. They're
53:53not sort of battle-hardened war veterans
53:55like Odysseus is. Um he's also got
53:57Telemachus on his side. He's got
53:59Eumaeus. He's got Philoetius. Uh and so
54:01they all just kind of have at it.
54:03>> And
54:04uh by the end it's just
54:06Is it blood and guts everywhere?
54:08>> By the end,
54:08the hall is running with blood. And in
54:10fact, uh it's one of the kind of really
54:12awful scenes is that that needs to be
54:15cleared up. And who is going to clear it
54:17up but the enslaved women?
54:18>> Really?
54:19>> And these are the women who have been
54:21sleeping with or raped by the suitors.
54:24Uh and they then have to clean up the
54:25bodies. They have to scrub the blood
54:27from the halls. They have to get the
54:28smell out. And after that, Odysseus
54:31decides that it's time for Telemachus to
54:32step up to be a man.
54:34And he has to punish them.
54:36>> What's the punishment?
54:38>> He takes 12 of the enslaved women who
54:41were the ones who were deemed to have
54:42been traitors with the suitors.
54:45And they are strung up by their neck on
54:49nooses across the courtyard
54:51and killed.
54:53>> Wow.
54:54That's the part of the story that you
54:55don't Well,
54:57someone who's been told the Odyssey will
54:59probably not quite remember as much as
55:01the suitors. That that that grim after
55:03note. And it that's Telemachus and
55:05Odysseus
55:06>> You And Odysseus says, "You've got to do
55:07that."
55:08>> Exactly. There is There is to me an
55:10element here of hazing. Of, you know, if
55:14you're going to be the king, you've got
55:15to be ready to do these kinds of things.
55:18This is Odysseus's vision of kingship.
55:20This is what getting home means. I think
55:22we really tend to forget that. We tend
55:23to think it's a kind of romantic uh
55:25arrival home and, you know, the reunion
55:27with Penelope. Before that happens,
55:30there is an absolute blood bath and
55:32there is the hanging of 12 enslaved
55:34women.
55:34>> Is anyone spared?
55:35>> So, there are some people who are
55:37spared. You've got, for instance,
55:38Eumaeus and Philoetius who were on the
55:40right side. So, they're they're all
55:42fine. Um there are some of the suitors
55:44who try and beg for mercy. Um and not
55:46even them uh get away. So, it's uh it is
55:49a really kind of thorough cleansing.
55:52Almost a kind of how can we return to
55:54what it looked like before Odysseus left
55:57for the Trojan War? How can we get them
55:58all out of our house? I think the
56:00scrubbing of the the sort of floors of
56:02the palace is very symbolic of that.
56:04>> of the memories.
56:05>> Everything out.
56:07>> And [snorts] is it Penelope then sees
56:10her beloved Odysseus after so many
56:12years? He's still got a lot of
56:14explaining to do, let's be fair. Um in
56:17the middle of this blood-soaked room,
56:19does she come running down towards him?
56:21>> Well, she doesn't. So, it's, you know,
56:23Penelope we've talked about she's sort
56:25of just as clever as her husband, just
56:26as canny. And so, she wants to take her
56:29time to work out who this potentially
56:32murderous new suitor is.
56:34Um your lackey there comes running up
56:35and says, "Odysseus is home. You know,
56:37you you should be so overjoyed." And she
56:39says, "Well, you know, I've got to make
56:41sure."
56:42And she comes down and she gives
56:44Odysseus a test of her own. So, we've
56:46had already kind of the contest of the
56:48bow, but now she's got her own little
56:50test to make sure that this really is
56:51Odysseus.
56:52>> And what's that test?
56:53>> Well, the test is around their marital
56:55bed. So, the story is that Odysseus
56:58before he went to Troy made a bed for
57:00the husband and wife in an olive tree
57:02that grew through the palace of Ithaca
57:04and he hollowed out part and made a bed
57:06for them.
57:07And what Penelope does is that she says
57:10to Odysseus, "Well, you know, we've made
57:12up a bed for you and moved the bed out
57:15of my room for you." And he is outraged
57:19and he says, "Who moved my bed?" Now,
57:21obviously, this is a symbol of the fact
57:24that Penelope might have been unfaithful
57:26because if that bed that he made for
57:28them, for their marital union could have
57:29been moved, maybe she's been unfaithful.
57:31And she realizes at the point where he
57:34gets outraged that the bed could have
57:35been moved and he tells the story of the
57:37olive tree, she realizes it's him.
57:38>> I don't really feel he's got a leg to
57:40stand on on that.
57:41>> [laughter]
57:42>> Is that Is that
57:43Is that left
57:45ambiguous? Is that not revealed whether
57:46she was faithful or not? So
57:48>> It's left ambiguous. Yeah. So what they
57:50do and there's a sort of moment then of
57:52reunion where they get together in that
57:53bed that he made for them and they tell
57:56their stories of everything that
57:58happened. And interestingly, Odysseus
58:00tells her about Calypso and Circe, but
58:03he doesn't tell her about Nausicaa.
58:05So he misses some things out in his
58:07story.
58:08>> of the the I'm not going to say the word
58:10again of the of the Phaeacians. Yes,
58:12okay.
58:13>> And she's the one interestingly who was
58:15potentially the nearest miss in terms of
58:17him not only being unfaithful but
58:19potentially settling down because they
58:21have this kind of sort of weird
58:23initiated courtship almost. And he
58:26doesn't tell her about Nausicaa. So
58:27there's some interesting sort of
58:28storytelling going on. I mean, Odysseus
58:30cannot stop telling his stories, can he?
58:32>> There you go.
58:33>> And you think
58:35that's the end of the Odyssey, but it's
58:37not quite because
58:40these suitors, I know I haven't got much
58:41time, so can't do too much, but but
58:43these suitors, of course, they're still
58:44the most prominent figures in the land
58:46and around. It's not just them. They
58:48have their own families. They have their
58:49own supporters.
58:51>> They do.
58:52>> And so
58:53slaughtering all these people,
58:56it's going to have repercussions and
58:57isn't that the case with Odysseus?
58:59>> It is. So you might expect the Odyssey
59:01to end on this kind of happy note, you
59:02know, reunion, marriage bed re-
59:05reunited, all of that, but it actually
59:07ends on a really kind of troubled
59:08problematic note where essentially what
59:10we're seeing is almost a civil war about
59:12to break out in Ithaca because as you
59:14say, you know, he has just murdered 108
59:17of the you know, young men from the
59:18island and the surrounding islands. And
59:20they have their families. They have
59:21their supporters. All of them come
59:23rushing in and say, "Well, what the what
59:25the hell are doing just killing all of
59:27our menfolk? Let alone, of course, the
59:29fact that all of the Ithacans that he
59:30took on the ship with him to Troy have
59:32not come back.
59:33>> of that. There's also that part where
59:34the soldiers you took to Troy.
59:36>> Yeah. So, they're really gearing up for
59:38a kind of war that's about to break out
59:40on Ithaca.
59:42And at that point, as Odysseus is
59:44rallying, as Telemachus is rallying, his
59:46aged father Laertes, at that point
59:48Athena, the goddess who we have seen
59:50kind of time and time again coming to
59:52almost pull the the narrative of the
59:54Odyssey back into order, she comes down
59:57again and she stops the fighting. So,
59:59we've got a sort of temporary
1:00:01god-induced pause. Whether that would be
1:00:03enough to stop all of the kind of
1:00:07conclusions sort of unraveling from what
1:00:09Odysseus has done,
1:00:11I'm not sure whether that would be, but
1:00:13at least for some moment at the end of
1:00:14the Odyssey, things hang in the balance.
1:00:17>> Things hang in the balance, but Penelope
1:00:18and Odysseus are back together again.
1:00:22And
1:00:22obviously we talked earlier about
1:00:23Agamemnon and Clytemnestra and how that
1:00:26is not a marriage made in heaven. Quite
1:00:28frankly, it's the opposite. It's a nice
1:00:30contrast though, isn't it? One of
1:00:32actually kind of
1:00:33a marriage that works between a hero and
1:00:36this and a queen
1:00:37compared to the compared to the
1:00:39Agamemnon and Clytemnestra and and so
1:00:42on, but
1:00:43that is the end of the Odyssey. That's
1:00:45that's the return, the homecoming. That
1:00:48slightly troubled note at the end.
1:00:50>> Well, the troubled note and also the
1:00:51fact that Odysseus halfway through the
1:00:53Odyssey was given a prophecy that he was
1:00:55going to go on another voyage again,
1:00:57which he tells Penelope when they have
1:00:58their little chat in the night. He says,
1:01:01you know, by the way, this isn't the
1:01:02end. I'm going to be off on another
1:01:03journey. So, not only have we kind of
1:01:05had a very troubled closure, but also
1:01:07we've got the opening to a future
1:01:09journey that's
1:01:09>> And do we know what that journey will
1:01:10be? Is it revealed in any other Greek
1:01:12sources what actually was supposed to
1:01:14happen after the end of the Odyssey?
1:01:15>> We do. Yeah, so well, first of all, we
1:01:17know because Tiresias gives him the
1:01:19prophecy of what he's going to do. So,
1:01:20he says he's going to wander, um, with
1:01:23an oar on his back until he gets to a
1:01:25place where men do not know the sea and
1:01:28they think that the oar on his back is a
1:01:29winnowing fan. Uh, so that's kind of the
1:01:31the first prediction. He's going to go
1:01:33on this long land voyage. But, the other
1:01:35thing that happens, which is really
1:01:36interesting, is how Odysseus dies. And
1:01:39this is on another, uh, journey that he
1:01:41goes on and he ends up accidentally
1:01:44meeting the son that he and Circe had
1:01:47together.
1:01:49And that son doesn't realize that this
1:01:50is his father, uh, unwittingly wounds
1:01:53him with a poison-tipped spear and that
1:01:56is how Odysseus dies.
1:01:57>> I didn't know that at all. Interesting.
1:01:59>> Telegonus is the name of the son. And
1:02:01this was the subject of another epic
1:02:03that came after called the Telegony.
1:02:05>> So, so we think of the Iliad and the
1:02:07Odyssey, but it the real the real the
1:02:10real, you know, the hard nuts, the the
1:02:12people who know it the best know that
1:02:14actually it's the Iliad, the Odyssey and
1:02:15then the Telegony.
1:02:16>> Well, absolutely. And all of the others,
1:02:18the Ethiopis, the Iliou Persis, the
1:02:19Cypria. There are so many that we just
1:02:21don't have. We've got two of them. There
1:02:23was a whole collection of these epics.
1:02:25>> Gosh.
1:02:26So, why of all of them,
1:02:28today, of course, we've got, coming very
1:02:31soon, maybe now released, um, we have
1:02:34Christopher Logue's epic, The Odyssey.
1:02:36Why do you think of all the stories, the
1:02:37Odyssey,
1:02:39it resonates so much with us even today?
1:02:42>> The Odyssey is a story you can take on
1:02:44many different levels. You can take it
1:02:46on the kind of surface level of kind of
1:02:47swashbuckling adventure, um,
1:02:50the fantastical journey, sort of the
1:02:52piratical nature of what he does. On
1:02:55that level, it's just pure enjoyment.
1:02:57But, I think on a deeper level, there
1:02:59are themes here that resonate with us as
1:03:02humans. Themes about what it means to be
1:03:05someone who acts within society, within
1:03:08their community, whether that is someone
1:03:09who's trying to uphold them and get the
1:03:11men home as Odysseus does or someone who
1:03:13ends up ultimately destroying them. What
1:03:15it is to be within a family, what it is
1:03:17to be within a home. These are themes
1:03:19that I think resonate with us all. And
1:03:21Odysseus, what he ultimately is trying
1:03:23to do is he is trying to get back into
1:03:26human society, make his way in the
1:03:28world. And if that's not something that
1:03:29all of us understand, that journey to
1:03:31try and understand who you are, how you
1:03:33make your way in the world, I think the
1:03:35Odyssey resonates with us all.
1:03:36>> It's also how to be respectful when
1:03:39you're in the house of someone else, how
1:03:41to treat your guests as well. I guess
1:03:42are those other big things you need to
1:03:44consider?
1:03:44>> Absolutely. Thinking about kind of the
1:03:45right codes of conduct with others and
1:03:47that that idea of xenia, that idea of
1:03:49hospitality, guest friendship, those
1:03:51ties that knit us together as a
1:03:53community of humans. And
1:03:55how fragile they are as well, how easily
1:03:57they break apart. I think it's also a
1:03:59warning, right? That that sort of very
1:04:00troubled ending of the Odyssey is also a
1:04:03sense that um we need to take care and
1:04:05we need to think these things through.
1:04:07And the Odyssey is a beautiful prism to
1:04:09think through those kinds of issues.
1:04:11>> Emily, this has been truly epic. 24
1:04:15books of the Odyssey covered from start
1:04:17to finish. Uh what a story. Couldn't
1:04:20have asked for a better guest to talk
1:04:21through it with as well. Uh last but
1:04:23certainly not least, you have written a
1:04:25book recently which covers several
1:04:27really important figures in the story of
1:04:29the Odyssey and they their links
1:04:33not just to the real world, but their
1:04:35importance in the mythology.
1:04:36>> Absolutely, yeah. I mean, I'm really
1:04:38passionate about thinking about why
1:04:39these stories matter now and and why we
1:04:42should keep turning back to them. And
1:04:43and my book Mythica is about the real
1:04:46women who stand behind these myths and
1:04:49who might have made up the kind of the
1:04:50tapestry of the late Bronze Age world,
1:04:52who might have kind of prefigured
1:04:54figures like Helen, like Penelope, like
1:04:57Nausicaa, Arete, who we've talked about,
1:04:58Calypso, Circe. What was the reality of
1:05:01the world behind that and how did they
1:05:03sort of trickle down into the legends
1:05:05that ended up making Homer's Odyssey?
1:05:07So, you know, it's something that what's
1:05:08fascinating about it is that yes, there
1:05:11was a history that was standing behind
1:05:12the Odyssey, but it's also something
1:05:14that we've been lost because we haven't
1:05:15been thinking and talking about the
1:05:17women. And what we can do now because
1:05:19we're interested in those stories again,
1:05:20because, you know, we're looking back,
1:05:22we're turning back constantly to these
1:05:23tales, we can start to ask new
1:05:25questions. And for me, that's what's so
1:05:27exciting about the Odyssey. You can keep
1:05:28coming back and asking more.
1:05:30>> Fantastic. And of course, this isn't the
1:05:31last time that I'm going to see you
1:05:33because next
1:05:35we're going to watch Christopher Nolan's
1:05:38Odyssey and we're going to record one
1:05:41more episode, our thoughts about it. Are
1:05:43you excited?
1:05:44>> I am really looking forward to it. I am
1:05:46also looking forward to dissecting it
1:05:47together.
1:05:48>> Emily, it just goes me to say, thank you
1:05:49so much for coming on the podcast today.
1:05:51>> Thank you so much for having me.

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