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Shuttle Columbia Accident Investigation, Congressional Joint Hearing, February 12, 2003 — Transcript

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0:00this is NASA headquarters here in
0:02Washington
0:03the space agency's administrator Sean
0:06O'Keefe was on Capitol Hill today
0:08he testified before a joint House and
0:10Senate committee hearing about the
0:12shuttle Columbia investigation
0:14NASA's budget and the future of manned
0:17space flight
0:19the hearing's about four hours we pick
0:21it up during the opening statement of
0:23Senate science committee chairman John
0:25McCain
0:31in today's hearing we hope to examine
0:33what went wrong on February 1st the
0:36status of the investigation
0:38and how we can ensure that in an
0:41accident like this
0:42will never happen again
0:45this will be the first of a series of
0:47hearings on NASA and our space program
0:50while today we're focusing on the
0:51Columbia the accident also has focused
0:54our attention on the broader policy
0:56issues
0:57that perhaps we have neglected for too
0:59long
1:00at subsequent hearings we will address
1:02the role of man and unmanned space
1:04exploration the costs and benefits of
1:07continuing the shuttle program
1:09and our investment in the International
1:10Space Station and the effectiveness of
1:13NASA management
1:15more fundamentally we must examine the
1:17goals of our space program
1:20I firmly believe that manned space
1:22exploration should continue
1:25it's nature however should be and will
1:28be examined
1:30we also must examine the extent to which
1:32Congress and the administration may have
1:34neglected the safe the shuttle safety
1:36program
1:37a comprehensive examination necessitates
1:40a review of our own actions and those of
1:43the administration determined to
1:44determine
1:46if the shuttle program was underfunded
1:48or managed in a manner that compromised
1:51safety
1:53I applaud administrator Sean O'Keefe and
1:55NASA for their openness and availability
1:58this has been an extraordinarily trying
2:00time for everyone in the agency
2:02the administrator and other officials
2:04have conducted themselves in a manner
2:06worthy of an agency that is not only a
2:09national Brain Trust but is entrusted
2:12with realizing the dreams of all
2:13Humanity
2:15many have noted the vast Improvement of
2:17the release of information is compared
2:19to the Challenger tragedy of 1986.
2:24I'd like to assure the families of the
2:26brave men and women who died aboard the
2:28Columbia and the dedicated employees of
2:30NASA that we will do everything in our
2:33power to identify the cause of this
2:35tragedy and remedy it
2:38I thank administrator O'Keefe and his
2:41team for appearing before us today and I
2:43look forward to the testimony
2:49we usually open hearings by talking
2:51about what a pleasure it is to be here
2:54today
2:55but of course that is not the case
2:58I'm reminded of what Lyndon Johnson said
3:00when he appeared before Congress after
3:03the Kennedy assassination
3:05he said all I have I gladly would have
3:08given not to be standing before you
3:11today
3:13I'm sure that is the way we all feel
3:16with a tragic loss of the Columbia crew
3:19so fresh in our minds and in our hearts
3:23but we owe it to those astronauts and
3:25their families and to the American
3:26public
3:27to work as hard as humanly possible to
3:31determine the cause of the shuttle's
3:33breakup and to rigorously pursue all the
3:36policy questions
3:37and the accident brings to a head
3:40I view this hearing as a start of a very
3:43long conversation we will all be having
3:45about the Columbia incident and its
3:48ramifications
3:49I think that it's very appropriate that
3:51we start that conversation on a
3:54bicameral basis and I want to thank
3:56Senator McCain for being so willing to
3:59make this a joint hearing
4:01the house and the Senate NASA are going
4:03to have to cooperate as we each review
4:06the accident and the human space flight
4:08program
4:09and our joint work today should send a
4:13clear signal that we can and will do
4:16just that
4:17we will also be coordinating with a
4:20Columbia accident investigation board
4:22headed by Admiral Gaiman I've spoken to
4:25Admiral Gaiman and I am impressed with
4:27the Admiral's determination to be
4:30independent and deliberate vowing to be
4:33swayed neither by outside pressures or
4:36artificial deadlines
4:38and I appreciate the swiftness with
4:39which administrator O'Keefe activated
4:42the board
4:44that said The more I've read the board's
4:46Charter The more I've become convinced
4:49that it must be Rewritten the words of
4:52the charter simply do not guarantee the
4:55independence and latitude that both the
4:57administrator and the Admiral have
5:00sincerely promised
5:02the Charter's words need to match
5:04everyone's intent now to avoid any
5:07problems later
5:08I also continued to believe that several
5:11more members should be added to the
5:13board
5:13to ensure that it has the appropriate
5:15breadth of experience and expertise
5:20we will be working closely with the
5:21board as the science committee proceeds
5:23with its own bipartisan investigation
5:26which will focus on the many qualis uh
5:29policy questions raised by the accident
5:33we're going to have to raise some tough
5:34and basic questions that have gone
5:37unanswered for too long
5:40what are the true risks of flying the
5:42shuttle especially if it's going to
5:44remain in service for another 10 to 15
5:47years
5:49what are the true costs of continuing
5:51the shuttle program at specific levels
5:54of risk and what are the advantages of
5:57investing in the shuttle as compared to
5:59investing in other NASA programs other r
6:02d programs and indeed other government
6:05programs in general
6:08but we can't begin to deal with those
6:10overarching issues until we have a
6:12better sense of what happened to the
6:14Columbia and why and it's obviously too
6:18soon to expect to know that
6:20no one should expect any Revelations at
6:23today's hearing we are here today to get
6:27a status report
6:28we ought to avoid pronouncements today
6:31that we may later come to regret
6:35I'm reminded of an interview I once read
6:37with an executive of the utility that
6:40owned Three Mile Island at the time of
6:43the accident there
6:44he was asked what was the worst thing
6:47you did in handling the accident he
6:51answered immediately he said we just
6:53didn't have the presence of mine to say
6:56I don't know
6:58I would advise administrator O'Keefe who
7:01has responded magnificently in this time
7:04of Crisis don't hesitate to say
7:07I don't know
7:09you're still in search of elusive
7:11answers
7:13despite the best of intentions NASA has
7:16at times already put out misleading
7:18information because it didn't check the
7:20facts for example information indicating
7:24that environmental rules could have
7:27contributed to the accident has so far
7:29turned out to be entirely spurious
7:32but it's taken NASA a long time to
7:34clarify its statements today is a chance
7:38to put facts into the record facts that
7:40will help chart NASA's future
7:43if we are to find the facts and honor
7:46the memory of the Columbia crew
7:49we have to approach our task in a true
7:52Spirit of Exploration with open and
7:56probing Minds without preconceived
7:59notions or foregone conclusions
8:02that should be our goal today thank you
8:05Mr chairman Senator Hollings
8:07thank you thank you very much Mr
8:10chairman for calling this meeting we
8:12welcome our colleagues from the host
8:15side and throughout my whole friend
8:18administrator O'Keefe
8:20we're glad to have you with us uh
8:23chairman bullet uh
8:26I got the message let's don't jump to
8:28conclusions
8:30uh on the other hand I'm reading in the
8:33morning paper
8:35the similar message not on the other
8:37hand rather
8:39Admiral Gaiman said that the
8:41investigation with solid evidence thus
8:43far hard to come by
8:46on the contrary we have a lot of solid
8:50evidence
8:52that we've come by and I I sort of
8:56discern some kind of eerie avoidance
9:00here of what really happened
9:03here are the hard evidence NASA's had a
9:07long history
9:09of problems with the shuttle heat tiles
9:12we know that the Columbia's very first
9:14mission to tiles all flew off that's 22
9:17years ago
9:19in 1994 a study entitled a risk
9:23management for the tiles of the Space
9:25Shuttle
9:26by Stanford and Carnegie Mellon
9:29found that 15 percent of the shuttle's
9:32tiles account for 85 percent of the risk
9:37and that was confirmed by a 1997 study
9:41by the National Academy of Sciences
9:45then a study by the Johnson Space Center
9:48itself in March of 2000. found that the
9:52leading edges of the wing quote pose the
9:56highest risk for critical
9:58failure end quote
10:01and then during the launch
10:04of the Columbia on January the 16th we
10:08have video evidence of debris striking
10:12the shuttle over 81 seconds after launch
10:17causing a gash in the left wing
10:21of some 30 inches long seven inches wide
10:25and over two and a half inches thick
10:29and then
10:3118 minutes from Landing
10:34the shuttle was pitching and yawning due
10:38to
10:38drag on the left wing
10:41and of course the smallest people says
10:44that
10:45as it was coming down and I'm quoting
10:49the mission control
10:52uh FYI for your information I've just
10:56lost four separate temperature
10:59transduces on the left side of the
11:02vehicle
11:03hydraulic return temperatures he calmly
11:07reported
11:08and then
11:10uh
11:1218 minutes
11:14from The Landing
11:16the shuttle was pitching and yawning due
11:19to drag on the left wing
11:22and then again quoting eight minutes
11:25before all communication was lost Mr
11:28Kling notice the loss of data from
11:33temperature gauges on the left wing on
11:35the spacecraft as he monitored The
11:38shuttle's Descent into the atmosphere a
11:41few moments later Mr Keane reported drag
11:44on the spaceship
11:46but control is expressed no alarm
11:50and uh
11:52finally the elevons the picture
11:56showed the elevans tried to cataract
11:59that Dragon engine thrusters
12:02to help it gain control because a minute
12:05before
12:07the exploding explosion the U.S Air
12:12Force captured that picture of the
12:15shuttle showing a bulge of deformity
12:18along the front edge of the left wing
12:21uh
12:23right on down the list
12:25uh Mr administrator I would think in the
12:28testimony we'll all agree we don't want
12:31to jump to conclusions we all agree we
12:33want to be very thorough and leave no
12:35stone unturned
12:37but we do have a rebuttable presumption
12:40here that the damage at the left's wing
12:44at the time of liftoff was the cause and
12:48let's rebutt it let's find something but
12:50don't all of a sudden be discovering
12:52debris all around and all of these other
12:54things that I've been in these
12:56investigations before and we knew
13:00exactly what happened
13:01it's a challenger Alan McDonald
13:05said he was in the control room that
13:07want not to take it off it was going to
13:09cause a catastrophe and he said one
13:13gentleman said There She Goes another
13:15one said like a piece of cake and then
13:18he said it exploded and everyone in the
13:21room knew why
13:23and then we spent years investigating to
13:26find out the same thing that we knew
13:28immediately at the time of explosion
13:30thank you Mr chairman
13:32thank you Senator Hollings uh
13:34Congressman Hall hasn't arrived yet so
13:36we will proceed to Mr O'Keefe the
13:39administrator of the National
13:40Aeronautics and Space Administration
13:42he's accompanied by
13:44Mr Frederick D Gregory who is the Deputy
13:47Administrator
13:48and Mr William Reedy the associate
13:50administrator for space flight if you'd
13:52like to join uh or either one of Maine
13:55where they are um
13:57and again I want to thank you for the
14:01extreme willingness on your part to
14:03share
14:04all information that you have with not
14:07only members of Congress but with the
14:09American people please proceed Mr
14:11O'Keefe and uh
14:13I hope you understand that we're
14:15interested in as thorough a briefing as
14:17possible as our Americans who are
14:20viewing this hearing today thank you sir
14:24good morning
14:25thank you Mr chairman chairman Bullard
14:29I appreciate the opportunity to appear
14:30before this hearing of the Senate
14:32Commerce science and transportation
14:34committee
14:35and the house science subcommittee on
14:38space and Aeronautics to discuss the
14:39tragic loss of the courageous crew of
14:42the space shuttle Columbia
14:44could you an ongoing investigation into
14:46this tragedy
14:48and the implications of the loss of
14:50Colombia to the nation's space
14:51exploration efforts
14:54this morning 11 days after the accident
14:56our work continues to honor the solemn
14:59pledge we've made to the astronauts
15:01families
15:02and to the American people
15:04they will find out what caused the loss
15:06of Colombia and its crew correct what
15:08problems we find and do our utmost to
15:11make sure this never happens again
15:15we welcome The Joint committee's
15:16interest in working with NASA to
15:18determine how we can learn from this
15:20tragic accident
15:21so we continue advancing the nation's
15:23research and exploration objectives in
15:25space
15:27while at the same time striving to
15:29ensure that we make human space flight
15:31as safe as possible
15:34throughout NASA's 45 years of serving
15:37the public interest
15:39Congress has been our partner
15:41helping us achieve the goals outlined in
15:43NASA's congressionally authorized
15:45Charter
15:46this Charter compels NASA to explore use
15:50and enable the development of space for
15:52human Enterprise
15:54Advanced scientific knowledge and
15:56understanding of the Earth the solar
15:57system and the universe and use the
16:00environment of space for research
16:03research develop verify and transfer
16:06Advanced Aeronautics Space and related
16:08Technologies
16:11with the support of Congress NASA has
16:13amassed a record of significant
16:14achievements that have tangibly improved
16:17the lives of all Americans
16:20and when we have aired you have helped
16:22us write our course
16:25this morning you'll be asking tough
16:27questions and that's as it should be
16:30believe me none of the questions that
16:32you will ask can be any tougher than
16:35those we're asking of ourselves
16:38I can assure you however that whatever
16:40determinations are reached regarding the
16:42cause of the accident
16:43you'll find that complacency is not one
16:46of them
16:47an ethos of safety is evident throughout
16:51the agency
16:52for example last year we temporarily
16:55halted shuttle flight operations when
16:57tiny cracks of less than two inches were
17:00discovered in metal liners used to
17:03direct the fuel flow inside the
17:05propellant lines on two separate
17:07orbiters
17:08we did not fly again until that problem
17:11was corrected
17:13now to Signal our continuing commitment
17:15to rewarding such diligence we also made
17:17it a point
17:18to praise a very young
17:21examiner fellow named David Strait a
17:24young contract employee who had actually
17:25discovered the cracks
17:28other flight decisions made throughout
17:29the year were made with the goal of
17:31operational safety being Paramount
17:35and from working with the dedicated
17:36employees who keep the shuttle flying
17:38safely I know they have the utmost
17:40regard for the enormity of that Duty
17:44this week at Nasa centers throughout the
17:47country and in the field
17:49with the support of more than two
17:50thousand people from more than 20
17:52federal agencies state and local
17:54organizations
17:56the important work of data analysis and
17:58Recovery operations is continuing
18:01we should all be extremely proud of the
18:03work that's being conducted by these
18:05dedicated public servants
18:08President Bush observed last week
18:11the people of NASA are being tested once
18:13again
18:15in your grief you're responding as your
18:17friends would have wished with Focus
18:20professionalism and unbroken faith in
18:23the mission of this agency
18:25Captain Brown was correct
18:27America's Space Program Will Go On
18:31we intend to maintain that
18:32professionalism he return referred to
18:34until we reach conclusion and Beyond
18:38this morning to help frame our
18:39discussion I'd like to review for you
18:41the significant actions NASA has taken
18:43since the morning of the accident
18:45in accord with our contingency plan
18:48in addition to articulating notification
18:50of First Response procedures defining
18:53the roles and responsibility of mishap
18:55response mishap investigation teams
18:58the plan specifies selections of persons
19:01outside of NASA to head an independent
19:04season accident investigation team
19:09now while we did not foresee this
19:10tragedy
19:12our response has unfolded as we had
19:14planned and prepared for in that
19:16contingency plan that we had hoped to
19:18never have to activate
19:21plan was one of many positive outcomes
19:23from the terrible loss of the Space
19:25Shuttle Challenger seven
19:31updated it before every flight
19:34and a contingency was simulated for this
19:37very event just three months ago
19:43when we first became aware of the
19:45problems with sts-107 I was waiting at
19:48the space shuttle landing strip at the
19:50Kennedy Space Center at Cape Canaveral
19:52on Saturday morning February the first
19:56at 8 59 a.m eastern time we lost
19:59communication with the Columbia
20:02at 9 16 the countdown arrival clock
20:05reached zero and there was no signal or
20:07sign of the Columbia
20:10Captain Bill Reedy our associate
20:12administrator for a space flight and a
20:14former astronaut
20:15declared a space flight contingency and
20:18activated the recovery control center at
20:21the Kennedy Space Center
20:23at that point Bill Reedy and I Departed
20:25the landing strip and headed to the
20:27launch control center
20:29we arrived at the launch control center
20:3113 minutes later
20:33and at 9 29 a.m We activated the
20:36contingency action plan
20:38for space flight operations
20:40through the White House Situation Room
20:42we notified the president as well as
20:44other senior staff of the loss of
20:46communications
20:48in addition members of Congress and the
20:50government of Israel were notified
20:53Homeland Security secretary Tom Ridge
20:55and the National Security Council were
20:58also made aware of the situation and
21:00were present there in the situation room
21:02that morning
21:04secretary Ridge then began assessing the
21:06possibility of this situation was
21:08terrorism related
21:10shortly after he made a determination it
21:12was highly unlikely terrorism was
21:14involved
21:17secretary Ridge then announced that the
21:19Federal Emergency Management agency
21:21would be the lead Federal Agency for the
21:23recovery effort on the ground
21:26meanwhile the family members of the
21:28Columbia astronauts were escorted from
21:30The Landing Strip to the astronauts crew
21:33quarters
21:34later that morning at about 11 30
21:38we met with the families at the crew
21:40Quarters at Kennedy Space Center
21:42to express our condolences offer any and
21:45all support we could give
21:48and assure them that we would offer that
21:50support
21:51throughout this entire ordeal and stated
21:53our commitment to find the cause of the
21:56accident
21:57fix the problems we find and continue
21:59the work that their loved ones had
22:01started
22:04data at all the NASA sites and
22:07contractors were impounded at 10 am
22:09and the headquarters action team in
22:11Washington DC was activated with NASA
22:14personnel
22:15moving immediately to their Duty
22:17stations
22:18by 10 30
22:20an hour after the contingency plan had
22:22been activated the mishap response team
22:24convened to assess the preliminary data
22:27and focus on the location of the crew
22:29compartment
22:30through the rescue coordination Center
22:32at Langley Air Force Base in Virginia
22:35the rapid response team was activated
22:37for deployment to Barksdale Air Force
22:39Base in Louisiana that day
22:44the process of initiating the Columbia
22:46action investigation board began
22:49about 10 30 a.m on Saturday February 1st
22:52one hour after the contingency plan was
22:54activated
22:56a place to call to the NASA Deputy
22:58Administrator Fred Gregory again also a
23:01former astronaut
23:02who was at NASA headquarters in
23:04Washington
23:06Mr Gregory then began calling the
23:07Columbia accident investigation board
23:09members which are specified by position
23:11in the contingency action plan
23:16at 1 15 that afternoon I made a brief
23:19televised statement expressing
23:22our national regrets
23:24for the tragic accident and inform the
23:26public about the appointment of the
23:28Columbia accident investigation board
23:32the action investigation board was
23:34formally activated during the NASA
23:36mishap investigation team teleconference
23:39which occurred at 5 PM that afternoon
23:42on Saturday except February the 1st less
23:45than eight hours after the event
23:47by 6 PM during a teleconference with the
23:50White House Situation Room we briefed
23:52officials from the Department of
23:53Homeland Security
23:55the Federal Emergency Management agency
23:57the Department of Defense
23:59the FBI and the Federal Aviation
24:01Administration about the current status
24:03of the action investigation
24:07at 6 40 that evening staff members of
24:10the national Transportation safety board
24:12departed Washington and traveled to
24:14Barksdale Air Force Base in Louisiana to
24:17assist as part of the mishap
24:18investigation team that day
24:22they were later made available to the
24:24Columbia accident investigation board
24:27on Sunday February the second
24:30the action investigation board
24:32chaired by retired United States Navy
24:34Admiral Hal Gaiman held its first
24:37meeting at Barksdale Air Force Base in
24:39Louisiana
24:40less than 30 hours after the accident
24:43we also began the practice of twice
24:45daily briefings at headquarters in
24:46Washington and at the Johnson Space
24:48Center in Houston
24:52membership of the Columbia action
24:54investigation board consists of persons
24:56selected for their positions
24:58in heading civil and military offices
25:01with responsibility for Aerospace safety
25:03accident investigations and related
25:06skills
25:07many have been Chief investigators on
25:09major accidents and between them
25:12the board members had the experience of
25:14some 50 major investigations to draw
25:17upon
25:19quite simply the people who are now on
25:20the board are some of the best in the
25:22world at what they do and they were
25:24activated immediately
25:27you have our assurance that this
25:29distinguished board will be able to act
25:31with genuine Independence
25:33when the board assembled it was modified
25:35as Charter to eliminate any reference to
25:38NASA directing the administration
25:40of the investigation so those
25:43for the framework that was contained in
25:45the contingency plan was modified and
25:47will continue to be to assure the
25:49independence of this board
25:51NASA accepted the changes to the Charter
25:53without objection as I will continue to
25:55do in the future as well for any changes
25:57they propose
25:59further
26:00the NASA Inspector General Robert Cobb
26:04is an observer on the Columbia action
26:06investigation board having arrived on
26:08Monday February the 3rd
26:11he will help assure the independence of
26:13the board
26:14as he reports both to the president and
26:16of the Congress under the terms of the
26:18Inspector General Act
26:21there are additional details about the
26:23Columbia acts investigation board and
26:24its activities that are I think
26:26important to note
26:29the board has taken over hardware and
26:30software releases of NASA so that we
26:33cannot alter anything unless the board
26:35approves
26:37we've already begun to honor document
26:39requests from the board as we have all
26:40along
26:42and have also supplied additional
26:44documents to the board which were not
26:45requested but we believe might be
26:47helpful in their work as we move along
26:50and finally the board has instructed
26:52NASA to conduct a fault tree analysis
26:55that it intends to independently
26:57validate to look at all the possible
26:59causes that could have occurred and to
27:03examine those in a very methodical way
27:05which they will then in turn
27:06independently validate
27:10on Sunday
27:12the NASA mishap investigation team was
27:14on the ground and working with local
27:16officials in Texas and Louisiana
27:19the state of Texas activated 800 members
27:22of the Texas National Guard to assist
27:25with the retrieval of debris and I'm
27:27eternally grateful to Governor Rick
27:29Perry for his immediate response within
27:31hours of our request
27:34by Tuesday there were nearly 200 NASA
27:37and NASA contractor Personnel working
27:39recovery operations in Texas Louisiana
27:43Arizona and California
27:45they were part of the more than 2 000
27:47people from Federal Emergency Management
27:49agency the Environmental Protection
27:51Agency
27:53the FBI the Department of Defense
27:55Department of Transportation
27:58U.S forest Service
28:00Texas National Guard Louisiana National
28:02Guard and state and local authorities
28:04working to locate document and collect
28:07debris
28:10by Wednesday the astronauts remains were
28:13transported to Dover Air Force Base in
28:15Delaware
28:16at Dover
28:18NASA Deputy Administrator Fred Gregory
28:20and former astronaut
28:22and a ceremonial Honor Guard were
28:24present to pay our respect
28:26to the seven Fallen astronauts
28:30throughout the week we were able to make
28:32steady progress in our efforts to
28:34recover debris from the accident
28:36we have thus far recovered upwards of 12
28:39000 elements of debris
28:42the search effort as you know from our
28:44press conferences is a large complex and
28:47ongoing effort with hundreds of square
28:49miles with challenging weather and
28:52terrain conditions indeed the graphic
28:54that's up now is that 500 Mile swath
28:57from Dallas Fort Worth area to just
29:00south of Shreveport Louisiana in and
29:02around the Lufkin Texas area
29:05we're very grateful that no one was
29:07injured on the ground as a result of
29:10flying debris from the accident
29:12and we're working with our agency
29:14partners to assure recovery operations
29:16remain safe as we continue this effort
29:20throughout the course of this activity
29:22I've also briefed the president and the
29:24vice president on a near daily basis
29:27to advise and apprise them of all the
29:29progress we're making as well as the
29:31cooperation of all of the federal
29:32agencies who have been extremely
29:34participating in this effort
29:37the Federal Emergency Management agency
29:39command post was set up in Lufkin Texas
29:41on Saturday the 1st of February and has
29:43been operating non-stop since then
29:46debris collection activities began at
29:49Barksdale Air Force Base on Sunday
29:51February the second
29:53yesterday we began transporting debris
29:55on trucks to the Kennedy Space Center
29:57where they'll be assembled and analyzed
30:00as part of the comprehensive action
30:02investigation directed by The Game and
30:04board
30:06I visited Texas and Louisiana this past
30:08Saturday to get my own assessment of the
30:10operation
30:11and more importantly to personally Thank
30:13The Volunteers in addition to all the
30:15federal state and local public servants
30:18who've been working so tirelessly to
30:20support the debris recovery effort
30:24let me touch briefly on the space
30:26shuttle Fleet as it is today
30:29discovery
30:30is continuing to undergo major
30:33inspections and upgrades which will be
30:34completed by April of 2004.
30:38Atlantis is currently assembled and
30:40stacked in the vehicle Vehicle Assembly
30:42Building at the Kennedy Space Center for
30:45sts-114
30:47the next mission due to have or plan to
30:49have been flown
30:51the Endeavor the third of the orbiters
30:53is in the Orbiter processing facility
30:56and being prepared for sts-115 which was
30:59scheduled a couple of months later
31:02the next shuttle mission sts-114 was to
31:05have been to the International Space
31:07Station in March
31:09that mission commanded by Colonel Eileen
31:11Collins United States Air Force and I
31:14met with her on Friday
31:15to further advise that the mission is on
31:18hold until we understand the causes of
31:20the Columbia accident
31:22and are able to resolve any issues
31:24identified
31:26at this time we don't know how long
31:28we'll be before we can resume shuttle
31:29flights
31:31we'll only know when the Columbia action
31:33investigation board concludes its work
31:35and presents its findings
31:37to all of us
31:40Colombia was the first Orbiter in the
31:42shuttle Fleet having flown 28 successful
31:44missions or just over a quarter of its
31:47certified life
31:48of 100 flights
31:50in February 2001
31:54a little over a year ago Colombia
31:56completed a major scheduled 18-month
31:59overhaul an update of its systems a
32:02process we call
32:03Orbiter major modifications
32:07the sts-107 mission was Columbia's
32:09second flight following that major
32:12overhaul
32:13and a successful servicing mission that
32:15had been conducted the first one
32:18was to the Hubble Space Telescope in
32:20March of 2002. so this was the second
32:22flight after it had been nearly
32:24completely rebuilt
32:26prior to the loss of Colombia and her
32:28crew the projected shuttle flight rate
32:30was five per year
32:31starting in 2004.
32:34and funding is requested for that flight
32:36rate in the budget the president just
32:38submitted last week
32:40the fight rate will be adjusted as
32:42needed of course once we determine when
32:45we can return to flight safely
32:49crew of the International Space Station
32:52is of course deeply saddened by the loss
32:54of Colombia and her crew
32:56as are all of our partners and people
32:58around the world
33:00I spoke with International Space Station
33:02crew members Ken Bowersox the commander
33:04United States Navy
33:06Don Pettit who's our science officer
33:08aboard and Nikolai bodarin who is a
33:11cosmonaut engineer
33:13on Sunday February the second for the
33:15first time in our discussions
33:17to inform them of the accident and how
33:19we're proceeding
33:20despite the tragedy the crew is
33:22continuing its busy schedule of work
33:26the day after the loss of sts-107 our
33:29Russian Partners conducted a successful
33:31planned launch
33:33of an unmanned autonomous progress
33:36resupply vehicle to the station
33:39the provisions carried on progress 10p
33:42should provide the crew sufficient
33:43supplies to maintain normal operations
33:45through June 2003 through the summer
33:50progress resupply flights to the
33:52International Space Station by our
33:54Russian Partners will continue as
33:55scheduled
33:57the next flight is scheduled for June
33:592003.
34:01we're working with rasavia Cosmos the
34:04Russian Aviation and space agency
34:06officials
34:07to determine what we might want to place
34:09on that flight to make sure we have the
34:12best use of the space available
34:15in addition a regularly scheduled soyuz
34:18crew transport vehicle exchange is
34:21planned already
34:22for the launch in April 2003 as it had
34:25been prior to February 1st
34:28study teams formed almost immediately
34:31after the accident to assess the impact
34:33on International Space Station
34:36these teams are focused on how we will
34:38first sustain the station second
34:40continue to assemble the station as it
34:43is not yet complete
34:45and third to maximize the utilization of
34:48this unique resource research platform
34:51we have kept our International Space
34:53Station Partners informed of our
34:54recovery efforts
34:56and further we have met with our
34:58International Partners just last week
34:59and continue to each day to plan future
35:03meetings in the weeks ahead to develop
35:04an International Space Station partner
35:06plan
35:09we can maintain a permanent crew on the
35:11International Space Station as long as
35:13is necessary
35:14with support from soyuz and progress
35:16flights
35:18the International Space Station is
35:20stable and has sufficient propellant to
35:22maintain its orbit for at least a year
35:25without support from the space shuttle
35:28but the near-term issue for crew support
35:30beyond June is water
35:33the International Space Station cannot
35:35support a crew of three after June with
35:37the currently planned support from
35:39progress
35:40as a consequence we're discussing with
35:42our International Partners the
35:43possibility of changing the April soyuz
35:46flight from a taxi mission
35:48to accrue exchange mission
35:50as well as the feasibility of adding
35:52progress resupply flights
35:55but I want to really emphasize that
35:57there are no decisions made and all
35:59options are being examined at present
36:03talk to the Expedition six crew the
36:06captain Bowersox commands now in orbit
36:09and they've expressed determination and
36:10desire to do whatever is necessary to
36:13continue the research and deal with any
36:15changes in crew rotation
36:17schedule that may be necessary
36:21as we look forward to determining our
36:22nation's best course of action and
36:24responding to the Columbia accident
36:26I'd like to point out that NASA
36:28developed an integrated space
36:29Transportation plan
36:31which was submitted by the president to
36:33the Congress in November as an amendment
36:36to the fiscal year 2003 budget so three
36:39months ago that plan was presented at
36:42that time
36:43the integrated space Transportation plan
36:45can help us address many of the
36:47near-term issues we're facing
36:49even though it was developed prior to
36:51the loss of Colombia
36:53the plan reflects the tight coupling
36:55required
36:56across the space station space shuttle
36:59and the space launch initiatives
37:02it is intended to ensure that necessary
37:04access to the International Space
37:05Station can be supported for the
37:07foreseeable future
37:09it consists of three major program
37:11elements
37:12the space shuttle the orbital space
37:14plane and the Next Generation launch
37:16technology
37:19this new plan makes Investments to
37:21extend shuttle's operational life for
37:24continued safe operations
37:25the orbital space plane is designed to
37:27provide a crew transfer capability as
37:30early as possible to assure access to
37:33and from the International Space Station
37:36and the Next Generation launch
37:37Technology Program funds Next Generation
37:39reusable launch vehicle technology
37:41in areas such as propulsion structures
37:44and operation
37:46this initiative will focus on the
37:48orbital space plane and the Next
37:50Generation launch technology including
37:52third generation reusable launch vehicle
37:55efforts
37:57you know the 2003 budget amendment that
38:00the president submitted last November
38:022002 also proposed adding funds to
38:05International Space Station Reserves
38:07to assure that we could successfully
38:09reach the Milestone of U.S core
38:11configuration and maintain progress on a
38:14long lead items for enhanced research
38:17aboard space station and the continued
38:19build out of that remarkable research
38:21laboratory platform
38:24space flight is a means to an end at
38:26Nasa that end is research exploration
38:29Discovery and inspiration
38:33the crew of sts-107 were engaged in a
38:35wide array of scientific research that
38:38could be just conducted nowhere
38:41else but in space and had significant
38:44potential benefits for the public
38:46Columbia's crew took great pride in the
38:48research aimed at fighting cancer
38:51improving crop yields developing fire
38:54suppression techniques building
38:56earthquake resistant buildings and
38:59understanding the effects of dust storms
39:01on weather
39:03as was recorded by the media
39:05Columbia had a cargo of human ingenuity
39:10the crew of International Space Station
39:11is also conducting research now that
39:13cannot be conducted anywhere else
39:16thus far more than 60 experiments
39:18spanning across such scientific
39:19disciplines as human physiology genetics
39:23plant biology Earth observations physics
39:26and cell biology have been conducted on
39:29the International Space Station
39:31from these experiments scientists are
39:33learning better methods of drug testing
39:36and about Dynamic models of human
39:38diseases
39:39the physics of fundamental processes in
39:42manufacturing
39:43antibiotic synthesis and changes in
39:46Earth climate
39:47vegetation and crops
39:50the International Space Station is the
39:52centerpiece initiative of human space
39:54flight at NASA
39:55our objective in this regard are very
39:57clear
39:58first we will keep on orbit
40:00international space stations Crews safe
40:04second we intend to keep the
40:05International Space Station continuously
40:07occupied
40:08in order to assure the reliability of
40:10the station itself
40:12and third we intend to return to
40:14assembly as soon as we're able to return
40:16to shuttle Fleet
40:18to Safe operations and complete the
40:21research goals for ourselves and for our
40:23International partners
40:26to accomplish these aims we need to
40:28create a long-term crew return
40:29capability to complement and augment the
40:32soyuz vehicles now provided by our
40:34Russian partners
40:36we intend to build that new return
40:38capability to create a new crew transfer
40:41system
40:42will allow us to rotate Crews on the
40:44International Space Station independent
40:46from the space shuttle
40:49we also firmly believe that extending
40:51the operational life of the remaining
40:52shuttle Fleet is a good investment
40:54because we'll help maximize the science
40:56return from the International Space
40:58Station
41:00we designed our internet integrated
41:02space Transportation plan
41:04to ensure that we have a coordinated
41:06resources to exploit the unique research
41:09environment of space and the
41:11International Space Station in the near
41:13Mid and long term
41:17we thought the plan was a good one when
41:19we proposed it and we believe it's not
41:21only valid today but even more
41:22compelling to pursue
41:25while we believe that this plan is a
41:27good one we will re-examine as necessary
41:29in light of the investigative findings
41:32of Colombia
41:35just over a week ago
41:38although it seemed more like a lifetime
41:41the president spoke so eloquently and
41:44powerfully at the Johnson Space Center
41:45memorial service in Houston Texas
41:49he said the cause of exploration and
41:52Discovery is not an option we choose
41:55it is a desire written in the human
41:57heart
41:58we're all part of a creation which seeks
42:01to understand all creation
42:04we find the best Among Us
42:06send them forth an unmapped darkness and
42:09pray they will return
42:12they go in peace For All Mankind and all
42:14mankind is in their debt
42:18the noble purpose is described in the
42:20president's words frame all that we do
42:23and how we do it
42:25these purposes Drive our mission goals
42:28which are to understand and protect our
42:30home planet
42:31to explore the universe and search for
42:33life
42:34and to inspire the next generation of
42:36explorers
42:38as only NASA can
42:41and even while our non-stop work to
42:43recover from this terrible tragedy
42:45and to continue safe operations on the
42:47International Space Station
42:49will be our chief focus in the days and
42:51weeks and months ahead
42:53the American people should know
42:55who will also press ahead with other
42:57activities to achieve these important
42:59goals
43:01this Centennial flight year we are
43:03launching the Mars exploration Rovers
43:06the Mars Express spacecraft
43:08the space infrared telescope facility
43:11and a number of earth science spacecraft
43:13and instruments as well as continuing
43:16our work
43:17to help improve Aviation Security on
43:19behalf of our homeland defense
43:23in these activities and in all that we
43:25do at Nasa we strive for unmatched
43:27excellence
43:29when it comes to human space exploration
43:31those margins are razor thin
43:34and we know we're graded on an extremely
43:36harsh curve
43:39for us 96 percent to 99 percent is not
43:42an a
43:44100 percent is the minimum passing grade
43:49despite this harsh truth we know the
43:52lesson from this terrible accident is
43:54not to turn our backs on exploration
43:56because it is hard or risky
43:59John's shed once said about the age of
44:01ocean exploration
44:03ship in Safe Harbor is safe but that is
44:06not what ships are built for
44:09human history teaches us that an
44:12exploration after accidents like this
44:14occur
44:15we learn from them and further reduce
44:17risks although we must honestly Miss
44:19admit that risk can never be eliminated
44:24President John F Kennedy observed once
44:26some 41 years ago speaking of our
44:29fledgling space program at that time
44:32all great and honorable actions are
44:34accompanied with great difficulties and
44:37both must be enterprised and overcome
44:39with answerable courage
44:43immediate task before our agency is
44:45clear
44:46we'll find the problem that caused the
44:48loss of Colombia and its crew will fix
44:50it and will return to flight operations
44:52that are as safe as humanly possible in
44:55pursuit of knowledge
44:57we have no preconceptions about what
45:01cause the failure or what it will make
45:03take to make it so it will never happen
45:05again
45:06we have an independent action
45:07investigation Board of truly outstanding
45:10and eminently qualified individuals and
45:13they and only they alone will determine
45:15the cause of the accident and its remedy
45:17no matter where it leads
45:20we're ready and willing to support the
45:23addition of any experts that Admiral
45:24Gaiman deems necessary to the effective
45:27conduct of the board's investigations
45:31part of my job as administrator is to
45:34remind folks that NASA does
45:36and what we are capable of doing
45:39its responsibility I take very very
45:41seriously
45:43at the same time I am saddened beyond
45:45words
45:46for the loss of seven outstanding men
45:48and women
45:49of sts-107
45:52I'm also very proud and humbled by the
45:54focus
45:55dedication and professionalism of the
45:57NASA family
45:59and all those throughout the country who
46:01are assisting in this
46:03challenging recovery effort
46:07today February the 12th is also the
46:10birthday birthday of President Lincoln
46:12and some of his words spoken for an
46:14entirely different purpose
46:16have come to mind this past week
46:20it is rather for us to be here dedicated
46:22to the great task remaining before us
46:25that from these honored dead we take
46:27increased Devotion to that cause
46:29for which they gave the last full
46:32measure of devotion
46:36we have an opportunity here now to learn
46:39from this loss and renew the boundless
46:40Spirit of exploration present at NASA's
46:44beginning
46:45we will do this by being accountable to
46:47the American people for our failings
46:49and we hope
46:50credible and compelling in pursuit of
46:53research exploration and inspiration for
46:56future Generations
46:59finally during the 16-day
47:03sts-107 mission
47:05we had no indication that would suggest
47:08a compromise to flight safety
47:11the time it has taken me to present this
47:13testimony
47:14is about the same amount of time but
47:16transma is transpired
47:18between when Mission Control first
47:20noticed anomalies and temperature
47:21measurements
47:23and the accident
47:27I just pause for a few seconds
47:29that's the same amount of time that
47:30transpired
47:32from Mission control's last
47:33communication with the crew and our loss
47:36of signal with the heroic Columbia
47:38astronauts
47:41may God bless the crew of sts-107
47:46chairman McCain chairman bold thank you
47:48all very much for your attention
47:50thank you very much Mr administrator the
47:52chair recognizes the ranking member of
47:55the House science committee the
47:56gentleman from Texas Mr Hall
47:59thank you Mr chairman and thank you
48:01chairman McCain and I thank this group
48:03Mr O'Keefe I thank you your deputy and
48:07your associate of administrator for
48:10space flight and those Valiant people
48:12who sit behind you there that contribute
48:14so much day in and day out we're
48:16grateful to you
48:17I and I speak for Bart Garden who is the
48:21chairman of the space subcommittee who
48:24has the same respect I have for the
48:26leadership and this is a day and time
48:28when we should be neither Republicans
48:30nor Democrats but Americans and I think
48:33it's a day and time when we come
48:35together and Mr administrator you did a
48:38great job that Monday that fateful
48:40Monday in Houston thank you for that
48:43I uh I think uh certainly this is one of
48:47the most painful hearings that I've ever
48:48had the duty to try to get prepared for
48:51uh it's less than two weeks now since
48:54the shuttle broke apart in the sky up
48:56over my home and my area in Texas I'm
48:59saddened every time I think of these
49:01seven Brave astronauts and the
49:03grief-stricken families that they left
49:05behind I knew three of them very well
49:08and the young lady from India who had
49:10accomplished so much and came so far
49:12came to my district on more than one
49:15occasion
49:16had a great sense of humor was really
49:20great for the program in one of her
49:22speeches to one of the classes in Canton
49:25and VanZant Texas one of the students
49:27said we have a hard time pronouncing
49:29your name she said that's all right I
49:30have a hard time pronouncing yours she
49:33she had a way with with the youngsters
49:35and was very helpful
49:37uh I know that there are a lot of
49:40questions about what went wrong and I'm
49:41going to shorten my speech here because
49:43we have so many others it really should
49:45be heard from and we have questions that
49:47we have to ask you there's also been a
49:49lot of speculation as to quarter who may
49:52be to blame for the accident
49:53the reality is that it doesn't appear
49:56that anyone yet knows what caused the
49:58accident although the NASA administrator
50:00may have some information in the
50:02progress of the investigation to share
50:03with us here today and you've done that
50:05and I thank you and I think the
50:07questions will be elicit more
50:08information will be helpful to us so
50:11it's likely to be sometime before we'll
50:13be clear on what factors have
50:15contributed to the accident it's thus
50:17it's important that we have a thorough
50:19and I want to stress independent as uh
50:22Mr Garden has stressed investigation of
50:25the accident so that the American people
50:26can be assured that everything's on top
50:29of the table and I know that's what
50:30everybody in this room wants anything
50:32less would be a disservice to the
50:34courageous men and women who died on the
50:35Columbia
50:36our nation is grieving we're we're
50:39mournful at this time and the families
50:42are in mourning but time lessons and
50:46sometimes heals that but that same time
50:49is going to bolster the need for an
50:51independent investigation and that's
50:54what we're looking for and Mr
50:55administrator I understand that you've
50:57pledged to do that and we thank you for
50:59that I think we need to take a very
51:01close look at what can be done to
51:03improve shuttle crew survivability as a
51:07longtime member of this committee I've
51:09always had problems cutting the NASA
51:12budget because not having the knowledge
51:14that you men have not having the
51:17exposure of life or death that so many
51:19of you have I didn't know how to cut it
51:21or how to recommend cutting it without
51:23endangering someone so we've had to call
51:26on the administrator to do that we had
51:28to call on Dan golden to do that he did
51:30it and I think did it in a good manner
51:32we call on you Mr O'Keefe to give us
51:35that same type leadership and we we
51:37pledge our support to you as we seek out
51:40causation and how to keep it from ever
51:42happening again NASA is talking about
51:45spending upwards of 9 to 13 billion by
51:47its own estimates over the next decade
51:49to develop a still to be defined orbital
51:52space plane that's long-range planning
51:55we have to have that we have to have
51:56some short-range decisions I think we
51:59need to examine whether some of that
52:00money would be better spent on
52:01developing crew escape systems for the
52:04existing shuttle Fleet and on completing
52:07a simple reliable U.S crew rescue
52:09vehicle for the International Space
52:11Station and doing both of these things
52:14as soon as possible with that Mr
52:16chairman I'd like unanimous to consent
52:18to put my full speech in the record and
52:21I yield back the time thank you without
52:24objection Senator Stevens has to
52:28turn quickly to chair the conference
52:31concerning the Omnibus Appropriations
52:32bill which all of us eagerly await his
52:36results of his work and so he'd like to
52:38make a brief statement Senator Steve Mr
52:41chairman I thank you and I do have to
52:42return that conference I've come because
52:44the gentleman that's before you I
52:46consider to be one of the closest
52:47friends I have in the world
52:49I think members should know who he is
52:52he came to Washington as a White House
52:55fellow
52:56he worked for the Department of Navy
52:58and then he became a senate employee and
53:01became the chief of staff of the defense
53:03appropriation subcommittee he went from
53:06there to become the Comptroller of the
53:08Department of Defense the secretary of
53:10the Navy he subsequently became a
53:13professor at Syracuse University then a
53:15deputy director of The Office of
53:17Management budget and is now the
53:19administrator of NASA I know of no one
53:21who's committed himself to good
53:23government and and conducted himself in
53:26the finest of our Traditions than Sean
53:28O'Keefe he's a man of integrity of
53:31complete honesty and openness in all he
53:34does I would back him because I know
53:37who'd be with he with me with my life
53:39and I I urge you to listen to Sean
53:41O'Keefe today he'll tell you the truth
53:43thank you very much thank you very much
53:45thank you Senator Stevens thank you Mr
53:48O'Keefe for your presentation
53:50look one of the issues that is going to
53:52be talked about a lot today by a lot of
53:54the members is the issue as the weather
53:57the NASA's budget was quote starved cut
54:00to the Bone there will be allegations
54:03that certain recommendations were made
54:05by certain people for example
54:07the Aerospace safety advisory panel
54:10annual report for 2001 stated quote the
54:13current and proposed budget are not
54:15sufficient to improve or even maintain
54:17the safety risk level of operating the
54:20space shuttle
54:22we've seen a lot of rhetoric in the
54:23media and you have too that they were
54:25starved that was not my experience as
54:28chairman and ranking member of the
54:30Commerce Committee but I think it's very
54:32important you take that issue head on
54:34and immediately
54:38yes sir no I fully agree there's no
54:40question this is a
54:41concern that we continue to have as well
54:44and to assure that all of the uh the
54:48facts that are laid out on that
54:50particular matter as it pertains to
54:52um
54:54the the views of the ASAP and the
54:57advisory committee as well their reports
54:59I think reiterate consistently their
55:02view that uh
55:04the future concerns about space shuttle
55:07operations and safety considerations
55:09were the matter they were most
55:11focused on and so as a consequence their
55:15continued effort that I've seen in the
55:16report before us always is that they
55:21quote specifically it's important to
55:22stress the panel believes the safety has
55:25not yet been compromised NASA and its
55:28contract contractors maintain excellent
55:30safety practices and processes as well
55:33as an appropriate level of safety
55:34Consciousness this has been contributed
55:36to significant flight achievements and
55:38the defined requirements for operation
55:40operating at an acceptable level of risk
55:42are always met so they're concerned
55:44we're always presented in the context of
55:47future
55:48approaches and matter of fact if if we
55:50call up a slide number 35
55:53that will cover that particular question
55:55as well their focus was always on the
55:58future operations as well as future
55:59efforts that were to be engaged in
56:02at the present time in terms of current
56:04operations and activities they certified
56:06as recently as a year ago they felt that
56:08the current operations were
56:10concentrated on very specifically to
56:13assure flight safety as a primary
56:15Paramount objective
56:18I think you're going to be confronted
56:20with some numbers
56:21and uh
56:23but in further questioning and I hope
56:25you will have
56:27responses to that as well
56:30at a Commerce Committee September 6 2001
56:34hearing on shuttle safety William ready
56:37then Deputy associate administrator the
56:40office of flight space flight
56:41acknowledged the challenges NASA was
56:44facing to maintain shuttle safety in
56:46light of budgetary constraints but
56:48nevertheless stated quote the safety of
56:50the Space Shuttle has also been
56:52dramatically improved by reducing Risk
56:54by more than a factor of five later in
56:57his testimony he said quote the space
56:59shuttle is the safest most capable and
57:01reliable transportation system in the
57:03world
57:04Mr Bloomberg the former Chief of NASA's
57:07Aerospace safety advisory panel
57:09testifying before the house science
57:11Committee in April 2002 on behalf
57:14advisory panel stated that quote in all
57:17the years of my involvement I've never
57:19been as concerned for space shuttle
57:21safety as I am right now the concern is
57:24not for the present flight or the next
57:25or perhaps the one after that in fact
57:27one of the roots of my concern is that
57:29nobody will know for sure when the
57:30safety margins have been eroded too far
57:33all of my instincts however suggest that
57:36the current approach is planting the
57:38seeds for future
57:39danger how how do we reconcile those two
57:43statements by two highly regarded
57:45individual who are within the
57:48bureaucracy of NASA yes sir well just to
57:51to clarify the record on that the bill
57:53Reedy of course is the associate
57:55Ministry for space flight Richard
57:57blumberg was a independent external uh
58:00member of a chairman of the advisory
58:03panel for safety so he was not a
58:06full-time NASA employee in that regard
58:09he was representing a panel View
58:12uh reconciling that is I think if you
58:14trace the history just a little bit the
58:16the plan that had existed until this
58:18past November contemplated uh the
58:21retirement of the Space Shuttle Fleet as
58:25early as the middle of this decade
58:27certainly no later than 2012 so it
58:29altered over the course of several years
58:31from about 95 forward the best I can
58:34tell the history of this
58:35based on the the recommendations of that
58:38advisory panel on safety as well as uh
58:42the the testimony and comments made at
58:44several different committee hearings as
58:46well
58:47we went back and really looked seriously
58:49at the question of what it would take in
58:51order to maintain shuttle operations for
58:53a sustained period of time what kind of
58:55continued upgrades would be necessary
58:57modifications necessary in order to Sure
59:00safe flight operations and on the basis
59:02of that as recently as last summer went
59:04through that planning effort which
59:07ultimately yielded the amendment that
59:08was sent forward by the president on
59:10November 13th of last year to propose a
59:13specific change in the funding profile
59:15for shuttle which envisioned a
59:17maintenance of that asset for a
59:19sustained period of time through next
59:20decade so the focus of these concerns
59:24which were all exactly as you stated it
59:25Mr chairman in the context of future
59:27concern were the things we were very
59:29mindful of took heat of made adjustments
59:32to and specifically put in plan in order
59:34to assure that we cover those kinds of
59:37uh of concerns in the future and address
59:39those as it pertained to current flight
59:41operations again there was no indication
59:44that I I knew of that raised concerns
59:47along the way of current flight
59:49operations if anything the diligence I
59:52see among the entire folk in the NASA
59:54Community is very much that of a culture
59:57that's dedicated to assuring safe flight
59:59operations or else the launch doesn't
1:00:01occur and that is the mindset and Ethos
1:00:03we continue to encourage and will
1:00:05continue to encourage in the future
1:00:09Mr Keefe as I mentioned in my opening
1:00:12statement I remain concerned about
1:00:14language throughout the charter of the
1:00:16Columbia accident investigation board
1:00:19the language would appear to indicate
1:00:21that everything the board does is
1:00:23subject to NASA approval and that to me
1:00:26raises some fundamental questions about
1:00:28the independence of the board and we all
1:00:31want the board to be independent not
1:00:34just in name but in fact are you willing
1:00:36to re-examine that Charter and remove
1:00:39some of the language that raises these
1:00:41questions and make adjustments in other
1:00:43places yes sir we'll continue to work
1:00:45with Admiral Gaiman to assure whatever
1:00:48he needs in order to guarantee the
1:00:50independence objectivity of that board
1:00:52we will absolutely work with without
1:00:54objection I mean just just just to give
1:00:56you an example uh the independence board
1:00:58will conduct activities in accordance
1:01:00with the provisions of applicable NASA
1:01:03policies and procedures and then it goes
1:01:05on to say the interim schedule board
1:01:09activities interim board reports and the
1:01:11submission of final board report in
1:01:13coordination with the NASA administrator
1:01:16I would think that they would have
1:01:17Independence they could schedule their
1:01:19meetings and and determine the type of
1:01:22report they want to submit uh of course
1:01:24they will submit the report to you but
1:01:26the report should come also to the the
1:01:29final report not just to the NASA
1:01:31administrator but to the president to
1:01:33Congress and the American people so I
1:01:35think that Charter has to be Revisited
1:01:38and and very promptly we've already had
1:01:40conversations with each other and I have
1:01:42had with Admiral Gaiman and uh both have
1:01:45assured me that additional members from
1:01:48outside the community so to speak uh
1:01:51eminent experts in different fields will
1:01:53be added to the board I think that's
1:01:55very important it's essential that we
1:01:57maintain the independent nature of the
1:02:00board a fully concurrent Mr chairman and
1:02:02matter of fact I think in Admiral
1:02:03gaiman's press conference yesterday he
1:02:05was very explicit that all of the
1:02:08factors he needed in order to maintain
1:02:10Independence and to be an objective
1:02:12investigator in this particular case for
1:02:14all of his board members was what the
1:02:17present condition required having said
1:02:18that if for on examination the latest
1:02:21change that was made to the Charter at
1:02:23his request we made it if he wants
1:02:25further changes they'll be made as well
1:02:26anything that it takes in order to
1:02:28guarantee their independence because we
1:02:30will be guided by their findings and as
1:02:32I've reiterated publicly as well as to
1:02:35you sir and to him that about the only
1:02:38thing that will be unique about the
1:02:40reporting requirement is that he'll be
1:02:42putting an address that says NASA on it
1:02:44on the envelope sending it to us but
1:02:47that report will be made public
1:02:48concurrent with its receipt so he will
1:02:51be reporting to the president to the
1:02:52Congress to the American people to all
1:02:54of us simultaneously
1:02:56well I was comforted by my conversation
1:02:58with Admiral Gaiman because he is
1:03:00insisting on Independence and he's also
1:03:03indicated obviously you'll have to have
1:03:05a liaison with NASA and use some of your
1:03:07resources but the Staffing will be
1:03:09independent of NASA and I think that's
1:03:11essential
1:03:13obviously we're all going to be spending
1:03:15a lot of time looking at shuttle
1:03:17contracts excuse me even though there's
1:03:20no indication at this point that they
1:03:22are a problem
1:03:23how comfortable are you that the
1:03:25incentives in the current contracts
1:03:27captured the proper balance between
1:03:30efficiency and safety and then as a
1:03:33follow-on do the contracts have Clauses
1:03:36that will ensure that the contractors
1:03:38have to must cooperate fully with the
1:03:42game and investigation
1:03:44yes sir on the first part um
1:03:47the the emphasis on safety in the
1:03:50current space operations
1:03:52space flight operations contract that we
1:03:54have very much emphasizes the uh the
1:03:57safety parameters and indeed they have
1:04:00tremendous incentives
1:04:02to do better each and every time
1:04:04and as a consequence of that there are a
1:04:07series of weighted factors in the
1:04:09guidelines that heavily look at the
1:04:11metrics of
1:04:13um any any difficulties or problems uh
1:04:16on orbit or at launch or any other time
1:04:18as they drive those factors down those
1:04:21they're given a specific incentive to do
1:04:23better in each of those cases so they've
1:04:24got a powerful motivation to want to
1:04:26move in that direction in doing so I
1:04:29think the approach also yields some
1:04:31efficiencies but that's a secondary
1:04:33manner at at most and so as a result
1:04:36there are real advantages and real
1:04:38emphasis on the safety considerations
1:04:40that are currently built into that
1:04:41contract framework as it pertains to
1:04:43their cooperation with the game and
1:04:45board positively we will advise them and
1:04:48have that we fully expect everyone to be
1:04:50cooperative with that board we have
1:04:52absolutely nothing to hide there is no
1:04:54evidence or no fact that we can think of
1:04:56out there short of national security
1:04:58information or some private proprietary
1:05:01issue that some individual may want to
1:05:03assert it would preclude us from making
1:05:04any information available and so
1:05:06everyone within the contractor Community
1:05:08should feel the same as as we do but is
1:05:10there something more than a moral
1:05:11obligation or a desire is there
1:05:14something that binds them commits them
1:05:17to cooperate fully with a game and
1:05:19investigation board
1:05:20um I will take you up on your your
1:05:21opening statement that on that contract
1:05:23clause I don't know but I'll find out
1:05:25thank you very much Senator Hollings
1:05:33right to the point with respect to cost
1:05:36and I'm sure you don't have Mr O'Keefe
1:05:38the actual figures with you
1:05:41but uh on the show changing of the space
1:05:45program we had a report on yesterday
1:05:48and the New York Times stating that we'd
1:05:50cut the Space Program 800 million I've
1:05:54been checking it overnight
1:05:55my check is 700 million be that as it
1:05:59may what's the truth that's what we want
1:06:01I asked on last week Mitch Daniel of the
1:06:04OMB Office of Management and budget
1:06:07to furnish the budget committee the
1:06:11figures of what was requested by NASA I
1:06:16want you to furnish the figures that uh
1:06:19request by the national requested of OMB
1:06:22for the last 10 years not just this
1:06:25Administration the past administrations
1:06:27to see the train
1:06:29line there of just exactly how we
1:06:32financed otherwise yes we all are trying
1:06:36to find out the cause but in the
1:06:38meantime as you try to piece together
1:06:40the retrieved parts and everything else
1:06:43like that I don't know how long that'll
1:06:44take a year and months whatever it is we
1:06:48all want to see the space program
1:06:50continue
1:06:51and for this Senator I don't want it to
1:06:54continue with uh upgrades I've heard
1:06:58enough about these upgrades we've lost
1:07:0114 astronauts and 5 billion dollars in
1:07:06Hardware
1:07:06with upgrades
1:07:09and we had a new
1:07:13reusable launch vehicle
1:07:17we had a spaceship that was canceled a
1:07:21year before last
1:07:22and then we had a reusable launch
1:07:25vehicle
1:07:26and that was canceled
1:07:29last November just a couple of months
1:07:31ago and you said we're going to use
1:07:33these
1:07:35vehicles uh shuttles until 2020 you
1:07:39would use
1:07:41being responsible for safety you would
1:07:43try to use one of these shuttles but all
1:07:46of these uh tiles flying off and
1:07:49everything else and after all of these
1:07:51losses you'd still want to use them till
1:07:542020 and not get new technology Mr
1:07:57administrator yes sir no thank you the
1:08:00as I understand the history here the the
1:08:02effort during the course of the 90s was
1:08:06in anticipation of a retirement of
1:08:08shuttle concurrent with the introduction
1:08:11of a new
1:08:13reusable launch vehicle that was
1:08:15envisioned to be the x-33 as I
1:08:17understand it
1:08:18based on a variety of technical issues
1:08:21which were based on the assumption that
1:08:24a series of incomparable engineering and
1:08:28laws of physics challenges would be
1:08:29overcome ultimately that I think two
1:08:33plus years ago that the choice was made
1:08:36to cancel that program and to continue
1:08:38with shuttle operations
1:08:40uh what we proposed a year ago and is
1:08:43not a cancellation of any rlv effort
1:08:45reusable launch vehicle instead it's a
1:08:47it's a selection if you will of looking
1:08:50at uh the integrates-based
1:08:52transportation plan what's included in
1:08:54the November amendment that the
1:08:55president sent forward for the 2003
1:08:57budget is a selection specifically of an
1:09:00orbital space plane option which frankly
1:09:02is is not a technology leap it is the
1:09:05capability of putting a board a
1:09:08Expendable launch vehicle a uh orbital
1:09:11space system space plane that will be
1:09:15launched in a conventional manner using
1:09:17an expandable launch vehicle the Next
1:09:19Generation beyond that is what we focus
1:09:21on our next Generation launch
1:09:23Technologies so we've tried to narrow
1:09:25and focus a lot more the space launch
1:09:27initiative efforts in order to get some
1:09:30near-term gain to supplement to
1:09:32complement the space shuttle and to
1:09:34provide that dynamic as well as flexible
1:09:37return system and transfer system to the
1:09:40International Space Station and also to
1:09:42pursue the development of a reusable
1:09:45launch vehicle that may be hopefully
1:09:47the product of breakthroughs that were
1:09:50not possible that we that forced the
1:09:52motivation of the cancellation a few
1:09:54years ago of the x-33 so we're trying to
1:09:57do both those concurrently but to get
1:09:58some near-term capability and in the
1:10:00meantime use shuttle
1:10:02in the future as a cargo lift heavy lift
1:10:05capacity which is what it was really
1:10:07designed to do in the first place rather
1:10:09than a crew transfer capability so we're
1:10:11trying to balance both ends of that to
1:10:13utilize capabilities for their best
1:10:15purposes as we move along we've got to
1:10:17find out what you think we all
1:10:19appropriate we all want to continue
1:10:21space exploration but we just don't want
1:10:24to waste time waiting on the results on
1:10:27the one hand on trying to find out what
1:10:29we already know uh let's get on and get
1:10:33your best advice on how we should
1:10:36proceed to get going on this thing and
1:10:38not just with upgrade yes sir thank you
1:10:41very much Senator Mr Hall
1:10:44Mr O'Keefe you heard my opening
1:10:46statement and I'm quite frankly
1:10:48disappointed that 17 years after the
1:10:51Challenger accident so little attention
1:10:53has been given to developing crew escape
1:10:56systems for our astronauts whether
1:10:57they're flying on the shuttle or whether
1:10:59they're in the space station I know you
1:11:01share that I I share with you the
1:11:04disappointment and the blame I've been
1:11:06here 23 years so it's a partnership
1:11:09thrust and and that's what it is that's
1:11:11what it'll continue to be but especially
1:11:13since NASA has indicated that the
1:11:15shuttle is going to fly for another
1:11:16decade and a half and maybe probably
1:11:19longer than that
1:11:20and in light of a media report I think
1:11:24on February the 5th that NASA's most
1:11:27recent effort in that regard was a five
1:11:29million dollar so-called study in 2001
1:11:32to put that study in context the amount
1:11:35expended on that study of potential
1:11:37shuttle crew escape systems amounted
1:11:40just a little bit more than one tenth of
1:11:42one percent of a single Year's budget
1:11:45that doesn't strike me as being very
1:11:48aggressive in in your effort to look for
1:11:50ways to improve the odds of survival for
1:11:52astronauts in the event of a shuttle
1:11:53accident that leads me to say that I
1:11:56have no doubt it's going to be
1:11:57challenging to develop a practical crew
1:12:00escape systems for the shuttle but
1:12:02NASA's in the business of of Performing
1:12:04Miracles NASA is in the business of
1:12:07meeting challenges and we call on you to
1:12:09do that I'm I'm very afraid that a clue
1:12:12as to why NASA is not doing more is
1:12:14found elsewhere in that article namely
1:12:16and I quote the proposed fixes were also
1:12:19seen as prohibitively expensive
1:12:21additions to an already aging and
1:12:23financially strapped shuttle Fleet we've
1:12:27seen a similar situation with regard to
1:12:29the developing a crew rescue vehicle for
1:12:31the International Space Station so as
1:12:34you know NASA divided decided to cancel
1:12:37the ongoing development of U.S crew
1:12:39rescue vehicles just as a demonstration
1:12:42vehicle we thought was a red it's
1:12:44nearing its flight test and now we're
1:12:47dependent on the Russians for their crew
1:12:49rescue vehicles until the end of this
1:12:51decade so in the meantime I guess my
1:12:53question to you is did you explicitly
1:12:56consider investing in the development of
1:12:58space shuttle
1:13:00crew escape systems when you revised
1:13:03integrated space Transportation plan
1:13:05that you announced last November yes sir
1:13:08um the we're continuing to look at what
1:13:11we would
1:13:12use as enhancements if you will of the
1:13:15Space Shuttle as part of that November
1:13:17amendment that was submitted last
1:13:18November and we're getting together here
1:13:21had planned to all along to identify
1:13:24that priority set of what will emphasize
1:13:26the highest safety uh margin
1:13:29improvements that could be yielded from
1:13:31different modification to the Orbiter
1:13:33system
1:13:33but with regard to the specific crew
1:13:36escape efforts recall that since
1:13:38Challenger there have been a number of
1:13:40operational changes made there's a an
1:13:43egress system that was put into place
1:13:45right after the challenge or accident
1:13:47that was part of the Rogers commission
1:13:49commission recommendations that
1:13:51ultimately stem from it I should say
1:13:52that we put in a place that now still
1:13:55exists to this day once launched though
1:13:57there is a number of different
1:14:00approaches that have been proposed
1:14:02examined reviewed and all of which added
1:14:05significant amounts of weight I'm
1:14:07advised to the the overall effort and so
1:14:10as a consequence reviewed to be
1:14:12technically infeasible what we have
1:14:14instituted though uh is again a series
1:14:16of abort procedures and as recently as
1:14:19the December launch of the sts-113 on a
1:14:24perfectly clear night at Cape Canaveral
1:14:26in Florida where everything was nominal
1:14:28everything was ready to go all the
1:14:30systems were completely operational we
1:14:33scrubbed the launch because the
1:14:36alternate abort site at Zaragoza Spain
1:14:40the weather was continued to be marginal
1:14:43so we take every precaution in this
1:14:45process in order to assure that all the
1:14:47way through Ascent that every possible
1:14:50opportunity is there as much as possible
1:14:52but again the idea of a an escape system
1:14:55was looked at examined very thoroughly
1:14:58and the conclusion was that the weight
1:15:00actor would almost be prohibitive in
1:15:02terms of its technical clarification so
1:15:04we'll continue to look at that we'll go
1:15:06back and look at it again you bet in
1:15:07light of this circumstance we really do
1:15:10need to focus entirely on what the all
1:15:12the alternatives are and I guarantee you
1:15:14sir we'll make that part of our effort
1:15:16underway now as part of this November
1:15:19amendment that is before the Congress to
1:15:21consider for the 2003 program that will
1:15:24factor that into the equation and
1:15:25proceed as appropriate even on a local
1:15:28level the city councils rarely ever fix
1:15:30a bad Bridge or a bad turn in the road
1:15:32until a teenager gets killed and then
1:15:34it's too late uh it seems to me that we
1:15:37launched
1:15:38the vehicles without any ability to dock
1:15:42we lost the vehicle because we didn't
1:15:45have telescopic ability to inspect we
1:15:48have three birds left I just urge
1:15:50caution and I thank you for your time
1:15:52yield back my time appreciate it very
1:15:54much Senator Brownback
1:15:57thank you very much Mr chairman and um
1:15:59Mr O'Keefe thank you very much for
1:16:01coming in front of our joint committees
1:16:03here and your your great leadership of
1:16:05NASA and a really difficult and trying
1:16:07and challenging time we all agree the
1:16:10lost human life it's uh it's happened to
1:16:14NASA and at this particular point I'm
1:16:16chairing the subcommittee in the Senate
1:16:18that will be dealing with this and I
1:16:19want to work with you and your agency As
1:16:21We Lay out the future of manned space
1:16:22flight in the United States
1:16:24I want to ask you about the broad
1:16:27objectives and the broad program
1:16:29objectives that we're on and about right
1:16:31now
1:16:32it seems to me that the space program
1:16:34has really had a critical juncture and
1:16:36the totality of the space program is and
1:16:39it's got to decide amongst a couple of
1:16:41competing options
1:16:42uh one is to maintain the current set of
1:16:45programs and current missions
1:16:47the second one that you read a lot about
1:16:49in the newspaper and people speculating
1:16:51this to dramatically reduce a manned
1:16:54space flight going to more Robotics and
1:16:56different types of vehicles uh
1:16:59questioning about the the safety and to
1:17:02try to be more safe and a third the
1:17:04number of people are saying that our
1:17:05vision is too small in space currently
1:17:08right now that we need new initiatives
1:17:10we need to go back to the Moon we need
1:17:12to go to Mars
1:17:13and we're at this tremendous fork in the
1:17:15road decision of which path to uh to
1:17:18take
1:17:19it's certainly my intent in the
1:17:21subcommittee to look closely at where
1:17:23NASA has been and where you are today
1:17:24and and where we plan to go into the
1:17:27future
1:17:28and most importantly we need to discuss
1:17:29as well the financial situation the
1:17:32terms of how we get NASA where it needs
1:17:34to be glad to see the Appropriations
1:17:37Committee we're putting in an additional
1:17:38414 million over the president's request
1:17:44um the goal is to reflect an accurate
1:17:46and effective determination for the
1:17:48future of NASA and I would simply like
1:17:50to ask you what have you done recently
1:17:53and I realize you're dealing with a
1:17:56tragedy mostly now but to look at this
1:17:58need for a review of the mission of NASA
1:18:02amongst these three policy objectives
1:18:04have you had a chance to start
1:18:06contemplating some of that
1:18:08and I I hope you'll be open to working
1:18:11uh openly with the Congress as we look
1:18:14at this fork in the road we're in right
1:18:17now sure core Senator I'd be delighted
1:18:19to work with you and any other members
1:18:21of Congress to to sort through really
1:18:23what is the proper role and objective of
1:18:25NASA and our pursuit of exploration
1:18:27objectives always
1:18:30we have indeed had an opportunity prior
1:18:32to February 1st to really think
1:18:34seriously about what is the strategy and
1:18:36the focus
1:18:37of how we concentrate on what we do best
1:18:42and do that only in a way that
1:18:45guarantees and assures that what we
1:18:49to offer to folks that we can actually
1:18:50deliver on and have a capability to to
1:18:54look at longer term exploration
1:18:56objectives and I think that's contained
1:18:57in the strategic planning documents that
1:19:00were all forwarded along with the the
1:19:01budget that was submitted by the
1:19:04president just last Monday uh prior to
1:19:07that in all the efforts we put into it
1:19:08was to think seriously about the very
1:19:10kind of questions you've raised and
1:19:12again to narrowly focus on the kinds of
1:19:14exploration and Discovery objectives we
1:19:17think we do exceptionally well and for
1:19:19those that are done by others or can be
1:19:21pursued elsewhere to leave that to uh to
1:19:24folks who have expertise or capabilities
1:19:26that would otherwise have to be
1:19:28duplicated by us what it leads to I
1:19:30think is a is a stepping stone approach
1:19:32a an exploration uh strategy if you will
1:19:36that assumes that we start off with a
1:19:39series of robotic capabilities and moves
1:19:42forward than thereafter towards other
1:19:44exploration objectives that may or may
1:19:47not involve human involvement the best
1:19:50example that we've seen played before us
1:19:52in the last several years is the Hubble
1:19:55Space Telescope there was a a two
1:19:58billion dollar capability that when
1:20:00launched in 1992 in Fairly short order
1:20:03was deemed to be as a marvelous out of
1:20:05capacity a capability that was in need
1:20:10of an eye examination if you will a lens
1:20:12correction and it was at that time
1:20:15determined to be a two billion dollar
1:20:16piece of space junk
1:20:18a year later we were able to to send a
1:20:23shuttle flight with astronomers and
1:20:26other engineering capabilities that was
1:20:28resident among the astronauts there to
1:20:30make that correction that could not have
1:20:32been done remotely and so the human
1:20:34intervention that was necessary to
1:20:36adjust that and all the servicing
1:20:39missions we've done since that time have
1:20:41yielded the kind of astronomy
1:20:43breakthroughs and Discovery just in this
1:20:45past year that we never dreamed
1:20:47imaginable so that combination that heel
1:20:50toe kind of approach towards of a
1:20:52strategy that utilizes robotic
1:20:54capabilities much like we're going to do
1:20:56here in the coming months when we send
1:20:58the Mars explorers in May and June of
1:21:01this year intended for landing in
1:21:03January of 04 is to then consider all
1:21:06the efforts we've got to do to prepare
1:21:09for them the follow-on kinds of
1:21:10expiration objectives but again the
1:21:13reiteration of the the first commitment
1:21:16to you positively will continue to work
1:21:18together and refine this strategy to
1:21:20assure that we do it with least risk but
1:21:22its greatest opportunity for exploration
1:21:24and Discovery potential thank you and I
1:21:26look forward to working with you on that
1:21:28design of where gentleman's time has
1:21:30expired thank you senator
1:21:33Mr rohrbacher
1:21:35thank you very much uh first and
1:21:38foremost I'd like to identify myself
1:21:40with the remarks and the concerns
1:21:45all right can you hear me now
1:21:48first and foremost I'd like to associate
1:21:50myself with the remarks and the concerns
1:21:52of uh chairman Bullard about the basic
1:21:56nature and the importance of the
1:21:59Integrity of of this commission's
1:22:01investigation and or and our oversight
1:22:04of that commission's work
1:22:06uh second of all I would like to just
1:22:09note that at the memorial service
1:22:11down in Texas I was touched particularly
1:22:15by the people of Texas and especially by
1:22:18the children of Texas
1:22:20who as we went to this memorial service
1:22:22they came out on the streets and Roads
1:22:25and waved Little American flags and had
1:22:27little signs up to encourage us and to
1:22:30encourage and it was very encouraging
1:22:32for our country so we recognized that
1:22:34there was a special bond
1:22:37between the Children of America
1:22:39and our astronauts and uh today we're
1:22:43building and we're going to make sure
1:22:44that we build a better future for our
1:22:46children and if there's going to be a
1:22:48better future for our children we've got
1:22:49to have a viable space program that will
1:22:53keep them in the Forefront of this great
1:22:56human endeavor of going into space and
1:22:59pioneering space
1:23:01so let me just have a few thoughts and
1:23:04then I'll have a few questions for you
1:23:06uh the hard-working and patriotic people
1:23:10of NASA have always understood and
1:23:13appreciated the risks with with space
1:23:16exploration especially manned missions
1:23:20unfortunately in the past 17 years we
1:23:24have been reminded of the dangers of
1:23:26human space flight with the destruction
1:23:29of the Space Shuttle Challenger 1996 and
1:23:32our 86 I should say now the Columbia
1:23:3517 years ago we took a step
1:23:40backwards for a few moments to take a
1:23:43look at that tragedy and pinpoint to our
1:23:45satisfaction what caused it and then
1:23:48correct those causes at least the
1:23:50technical causes of the loss today I am
1:23:54confident that Admiral Gaiman and his
1:23:56commission will get to the truths that
1:24:00will help us understand
1:24:02Colombia's fatal accident
1:24:05uh however many questions need to be
1:24:08addressed that transcend the immediate
1:24:12Technical and managerial problems of
1:24:14this tragedy we're going to hear a lot
1:24:16about the technical end of it but
1:24:18there's a lot of other questions that go
1:24:19way beyond that the lack of long-term
1:24:22goals or a unifying vision for America's
1:24:26space effort for example needs to be
1:24:28addressed to fully understand this
1:24:30tragedy uh this uh uh failing I believe
1:24:35weaken the efforts that would have been
1:24:37uh taken to replace the shuttle system
1:24:41long before age became a factor and we
1:24:45will find out I believe that age was
1:24:47indeed a factor uh perhaps Mr Hollings
1:24:51is our Senator Hollings is Right perhaps
1:24:54it's simple what we're looking at
1:24:56perhaps it was the tiles and uh in terms
1:24:59of a simple answer and more complex
1:25:01answer might be facing it might be age
1:25:03but this tragedy and this investigation
1:25:06nonetheless gives us an opportunity to
1:25:10to revisit the fundamentals and make
1:25:13recommendations that will chart
1:25:14America's future space Endeavors NASA's
1:25:17leadership is faced and will continue to
1:25:19face the challenge of exercising
1:25:22responsible stewardship
1:25:24with limited resources while providing a
1:25:28coherent blueprint of what can be
1:25:31accomplished and how it can be
1:25:32accomplished but hopefully
1:25:34forward-looking strategies will lead us
1:25:36to incremental advances that will then
1:25:40permit us to achieve long-term
1:25:43objectives a new propulsion system might
1:25:45be a good start as well as perhaps a a
1:25:48look at Robotics and remote control on
1:25:51the part of NASA a new commitment that
1:25:53end but before we move forward we must
1:25:56fully understand why these seven people
1:25:58perished my question to you today is
1:26:02the age Factor was this the shuttle's
1:26:06age a 30 year old system a major factor
1:26:09in this tragedy we're investigating
1:26:13well thank you Congressman uh and again
1:26:15I I associate myself entirely with your
1:26:17observation that ultimately the
1:26:19investigation will be what guides us to
1:26:21that conclusion and if that is a factor
1:26:23you bet that's exactly what we'll we'll
1:26:25operate on having said that
1:26:27it is worth noting two really important
1:26:30factors on this the Columbia indeed is
1:26:32the oldest or was the oldest of the of
1:26:34the four orbiters
1:26:36uh it was delivered in late 1970s its
1:26:39first flight was in 1981.
1:26:41it is half it was half the age of the
1:26:45average bomber aircraft that flew in
1:26:48Afghanistan just a year ago that
1:26:51prosecuted that very important effort
1:26:53that we were engaged in there so the
1:26:56airframe condition on this each time we
1:26:59go through this Orbiter major
1:27:00modification I refer to in the opening
1:27:02statement is essentially the equivalent
1:27:04of the same kind of effort the military
1:27:07uh the defense department goes through
1:27:09of tear down of every single element of
1:27:13the the the capability of the Orbiter
1:27:16itself its structural Integrity
1:27:18inspected and examined very carefully
1:27:20then rebuilt to modernize it to
1:27:22contemporary capability that particular
1:27:25effort had just been conducted an
1:27:2818-month uh tear down of the shuttle
1:27:30Columbia and delivered early last year
1:27:34in advance of the March flight
1:27:37that went to Hubble that did the
1:27:38servicing mission sts-109 was the first
1:27:41flight of Colombia after uh that
1:27:44particular Orbiter major modification
1:27:47effort which again is is patterned very
1:27:50much after the the depot kind of
1:27:52approach that's taken uh at all of the
1:27:54uh the defense department related assets
1:27:56only even more exhaustively to conduct
1:27:59the upgrades this was the second flight
1:28:01after that particular tear down so the
1:28:03age Factor again you're exactly right
1:28:05the investigation May yet prove or may
1:28:08demonstrate to us that there was a
1:28:09contributor there but in terms of our
1:28:11efforts to assure that not be a factor
1:28:13again it it appears to be every element
1:28:17of diligence could be done to assure
1:28:20that it was a previous flight that
1:28:21operated just perfectly no difficulty
1:28:24whatsoever in Colombia no structural
1:28:26defects upon return and upon every
1:28:29single Orbiter flight return We examine
1:28:32all of the elements of the uh of the of
1:28:35the shuttles themselves the orbiters
1:28:36himself when we move it through the
1:28:38Orbiter processing facility to assure
1:28:40that any damage any structural problems
1:28:42anything are detected there was
1:28:44absolutely nothing wrong with Columbia
1:28:46that we could detect in that regard so
1:28:48when it flew on its second flight it was
1:28:50in the same shape it was when it left
1:28:52the Orbiter major modification program
1:28:54just a year before Senator bro
1:29:02uh thank you Mr chairman Mr O'Keefe
1:29:05thank you and also congratulate you on
1:29:08the method in which you've handled this
1:29:11tragedy and the openness that I think
1:29:13we've seen from NASA and how you are
1:29:16approaching the investigation both
1:29:18internally and with the external
1:29:21investigation as well let me ask do we
1:29:24have any idea of how many
1:29:26times the insulating tiles have come off
1:29:30a shuttle during launch and how many
1:29:33tiles have actually come off in the
1:29:36during the history of the shuttle
1:29:38launches
1:29:39to the best of my Recollections are in
1:29:43our efforts there it's no more than a
1:29:45half a dozen times
1:29:46that was specifically related to it
1:29:49there was um
1:29:51after each flight there is always again
1:29:55as I mentioned just a moment ago to
1:29:56Congressman rohrbacher a uh assessment
1:30:00summary that's conducted to look at each
1:30:02element of the Orbiter when returns is
1:30:04also an inspection of the external tank
1:30:06which is you're aware when it reaches
1:30:09the upper atmosphere it disintegrates
1:30:12the two uh solid rocket boosters
1:30:16once expended
1:30:18drop back into into the ocean on the
1:30:20tiles themselves I mean how many times
1:30:22have the tiles come off and how many
1:30:24tiles have come off during the history
1:30:26of the shuttle launches yes sir at each
1:30:28flight there's typically uh ding or a
1:30:31scratch or whatever else from all the
1:30:33the various efforts that occur as they
1:30:35are re-entering as well as on Ascent I'm
1:30:38gonna provide for the record a full
1:30:40summary of all of the times on each
1:30:42flight that a tile has been missing or
1:30:44lost or whatever else but it was never
1:30:46considered to be significant in terms of
1:30:49its safety of flight consideration that
1:30:51we've examined on the orbiters when we
1:30:53moved it through the Orbiter processing
1:30:55facility to look at the condition of the
1:30:57orbiters after each flight we'll submit
1:30:59that for the record if Engineers on this
1:31:01particular case had determined that
1:31:03insulating tiles had in fact Departed
1:31:06the shuttle at some point and that it
1:31:09was in a area that was in part and very
1:31:12key could the angle of attack on the
1:31:15re-entry of the shuttle been adjusted to
1:31:17deflect the Heat
1:31:18that's a potential maneuvering
1:31:20capability but again there are more than
1:31:23four thousand sensors aboard each
1:31:26shuttle Orbiter and if there were any
1:31:28indication
1:31:29that the um there were any abnormalities
1:31:33as a consequence of tile loss or
1:31:36whatever else there likely would have
1:31:38shown up during that 16-day orbiting
1:31:40Mission uh more importantly during the
1:31:43course of that time uh recall that in
1:31:47each orbit you're looking at a Sunset
1:31:48and a sunrise every 90 minutes which
1:31:51means every 16 you know 16 times a day
1:31:54the temperature variation on an Orbiter
1:31:57or a shuttle flight varies by as much as
1:32:00three to four hundred degrees uh two
1:32:03plus 200 degrees during the sunlight and
1:32:06minus about 150 plus during the darkness
1:32:09period of that 90 degree rotation or 90
1:32:12minute rotation each time it orbits so
1:32:15that wide range of temperature variation
1:32:18if there had been exposure almost
1:32:20certainly would have shown up on one of
1:32:23those 4 000 sensors that are aboard the
1:32:26shuttle Orbiter to have given us an
1:32:28indication the fact of the matter
1:32:29remains there were no abnormalities that
1:32:31would suggest that problem until 853 the
1:32:34morning of September I'm sorry February
1:32:37the First on that Saturday morning but
1:32:38is there no way that these sensors or
1:32:41any other methodology would have
1:32:42determined if any of the tiles had
1:32:44Departed the shuttle during the mag and
1:32:47during the actual Mission before it
1:32:48returned to Earth we don't think so
1:32:50every effort that were made on previous
1:32:53flights to examine any structural
1:32:57uh damage or change or whatever else
1:32:59using uh any kind of visual capabilities
1:33:03we're either
1:33:04inconclusive or not of the level of
1:33:07granularity that really gave us that
1:33:08much detail and again all the supporting
1:33:10data would have also suggested if there
1:33:13were problems on it again the reality
1:33:15remains over that 16-day mission and
1:33:17again the investigation may find some
1:33:20data that we're not aware of right now
1:33:22because everything was locked down
1:33:23within a half an hour after the incident
1:33:24if there's something else that emerges
1:33:26to suggests to the contrary we're going
1:33:28to get to the bottom of it but all the
1:33:29information we have now and after that
1:33:32after the flight and after the
1:33:33examination of it suggests no
1:33:35abnormalities that would have pointed in
1:33:36that direction at all
1:33:38what degree of certainty of jobs time is
1:33:40expired
1:33:42cause cause Gordon
1:33:45thank you Mr chairman and welcome Mr
1:33:47O'Keefe glad you joined us today before
1:33:50I move to discuss other issues I just
1:33:52want to stress my concern that the
1:33:54investigation of the Columbia Space
1:33:55Shuttle accident ultimately must be
1:33:58perceived as objective and independent
1:34:01if Congress the president and the
1:34:03American taxpayers are going to reach a
1:34:05consensus on how to move forward with
1:34:07our space program
1:34:09it's no reflection on you or the Admiral
1:34:11but that's not going to be possible if
1:34:13there are lingering questions regarding
1:34:15the independence of the board
1:34:17as you know I've raised this question
1:34:18for several days now and having checked
1:34:20with your office this week and the NASA
1:34:22website this morning there seems to be a
1:34:24clear disconnect from your statements
1:34:26about the board's Independence and the
1:34:28rules you're laying down for the board
1:34:29let me quote just a few examples of your
1:34:32rules as Mr Boulder had earlier the
1:34:35current board not only includes NASA
1:34:37employees but you also require it to be
1:34:40staffed by NASA employees who will help
1:34:42write the board's final report which
1:34:44goes to you
1:34:46you require that the board must and I
1:34:48quote schedule board activities enter on
1:34:51board reports and submit final board
1:34:53reports in coordination with the NASA
1:34:56administrator in accordance with the
1:34:57applicable NASA policies and Mr Keith
1:35:01I'm afraid this won't pass anybody's
1:35:04smell test of Independence so please
1:35:06let's move forward in a concrete way and
1:35:09put this bipartisan concern behind us
1:35:11now let me turn to another issue that is
1:35:13troubling
1:35:14as you know there have been numerous
1:35:16warning flags regarding the health of
1:35:17the shuttle program in recent years
1:35:19just a few examples April 2002 Richard
1:35:23Bloomberg head of the independent
1:35:25Aerospace safety advisory panel issued a
1:35:28blunt warning when he testified before
1:35:30this house subcommittee and I quote in
1:35:33all the years of my involvement I have
1:35:35never been as concerned for the space
1:35:37shuttle safety as I am now a month
1:35:40earlier the Aerospace safety advisory
1:35:43panel gave you a report that stated and
1:35:45I quote the current and proposed budgets
1:35:48are not sufficient to improve or even
1:35:51maintain the safety risk level of
1:35:54operations for the space shuttle
1:35:56yet in spite of These Warnings you sent
1:35:58over a NASA budget request that cut the
1:36:00budget for shuttle upgrades but 500
1:36:03million dollars even while finding a
1:36:05billion dollars for new initiatives
1:36:07because of my concern I asked Fred
1:36:09Gregory who was then the NASA associate
1:36:11administrator for space flight the
1:36:13following question at the same April
1:36:152002 hearing Mr Gregory how would you
1:36:19support the space station in the event
1:36:21you lost the shuttle and the rest of the
1:36:24fleet was grounded for some period of
1:36:26time
1:36:26Mr Gregory responded
1:36:29there would be no way to do that
1:36:33I assume that such an admission would
1:36:35have kicked off an intense effort to
1:36:37develop a contingency plan for
1:36:39supporting the space station however at
1:36:41your press briefing Monday you indicated
1:36:43that over the next few weeks NASA would
1:36:46be working with a space station
1:36:47International Partners to come up with a
1:36:49plan you reiterated that earlier today
1:36:53given the fact that you had numerous
1:36:54warnings and you knew the shuttle was
1:36:56grounded for two and a half years after
1:36:58the loss of Challenger I would assume Mr
1:37:00Gregory's admission nearly a year ago
1:37:02would have been a wake-up call so my
1:37:04questions are did NASA prepare a
1:37:07contingency plan for the space station
1:37:08last year if so what was in the plan and
1:37:12why do you now believe that you need to
1:37:14redo it and finally if you didn't have a
1:37:16plan
1:37:17why not
1:37:19yes sir we did prepare a contingency
1:37:21plan I guess I've outlined a number of
1:37:23those options you've acknowledged that
1:37:24you heard those as part of the
1:37:26presentation of the testimony we'll
1:37:28continue to look at those Alternatives
1:37:29using soyuz as well as progress vehicles
1:37:32and we're also hopeful of an expeditious
1:37:35conclusion that would tell us what
1:37:37occurred on shuttle Columbia that would
1:37:40give us an opportunity to return to
1:37:42flight expeditiously all those factors
1:37:44are in play those are all part of that
1:37:45continuously plan I think the specific
1:37:47reference in this case and the
1:37:49testimonial site was no way to get back
1:37:52with shuttle immediately given the
1:37:54safety considerations that we will
1:37:55always ground the fleet under those
1:37:58circumstances I fully concur in your
1:38:00opening comments too as it pertains to
1:38:02Charter revisions to the extent they're
1:38:04necessary as I pledge to Chairman
1:38:05Bullard we will make those changes in
1:38:07any way that Admiral Gaiman feels he has
1:38:10to have in order to guarantee that
1:38:11Independence I have no no difficulty
1:38:14whatsoever understanding his
1:38:17requirements for Independence and he has
1:38:19reiterated those I intend to comply
1:38:21exactly with that approach well the
1:38:23senator Fitzgerald okay
1:38:27um
1:38:32I happen to be having a town hall
1:38:34meeting in Champaign Illinois
1:38:37and I asked there were about two maybe
1:38:42250 people in the room
1:38:44I asked them whether they thought we
1:38:47should continue with manned exploration
1:38:49of space and I explained to them that it
1:38:52could cost us billions of dollars and
1:38:55years
1:38:56to make
1:38:58ourselves able to continue going forward
1:39:02in space
1:39:04to my surprise I'd say about
1:39:07four-fifths of the people in that room
1:39:09wanted us to go back and continue human
1:39:13exploration of space and in my state of
1:39:16Illinois has very little in the way of
1:39:19spending that it benefits from we're not
1:39:21Florida or Texas
1:39:23and and I want the space program to
1:39:26continue and I wondered
1:39:28if you had a gut impression at this
1:39:31point and I know it's early but it seems
1:39:33to me that we can go in one of two
1:39:34directions we could spend billions of
1:39:36dollars and perhaps years trying to
1:39:40patch up and fix whatever may be wrong
1:39:43with the shuttle program but you're
1:39:46basically dealing with a 30 year old
1:39:48design
1:39:49my understanding is there are some 1.2
1:39:52million checks that have to be done by
1:39:56hundreds of people before a single
1:39:58shuttle flight can take off it's
1:40:01extraordinarily complex my question is
1:40:04do we go forward and spend that time and
1:40:06that money reinforcing the shuttle
1:40:09program
1:40:10or would we be better off
1:40:13not diverting the resources to
1:40:16reinforcing this 30 year old shuttle
1:40:18program and instead try and proceed with
1:40:21a new
1:40:23vehicle and focus all our effort on that
1:40:27no thank you Senator I the the factors I
1:40:31think that lead to uh the complexity of
1:40:34the shuttle and the amount of checking
1:40:36that goes on there certainly is driven
1:40:37by the technology no doubt about that
1:40:40the number of moving Parts on that asset
1:40:42but I would submit that any asset we
1:40:44have uh that would use for the purpose
1:40:47of of a reusable launch vehicle
1:40:49capability to launch would also require
1:40:52an awful lot of checks as well because
1:40:54of the absolute dedication the
1:40:56unwavering commitment to safety that we
1:40:58always pursue every time we launch a
1:41:00shuttle flight no matter what that asset
1:41:02is would be it would require I think a
1:41:05review of all the systems checks and the
1:41:07ethos that we have within the agency and
1:41:09all that are part of the community is
1:41:11that there's a single thing that is
1:41:13wrong or that appears to be wrong and
1:41:15the Judgment of any individual there's a
1:41:18process set up to stop the launch two
1:41:21weeks in advance there's a flight
1:41:22Readiness review that runs to ground
1:41:24every issue involved in that if there's
1:41:26any residual issues all the way up to
1:41:28the moment of launch we don't do that I
1:41:30don't Envision that changing even with a
1:41:32even if we had a system today that was
1:41:34brand new I think that same ethos would
1:41:36have to dominate because we really are
1:41:37committed to that objective to minimize
1:41:39the risk we'll never drive the risk out
1:41:41of it completely and so I think that's
1:41:43that same approach would be employed no
1:41:45matter what assets or capabilities
1:41:47having said all that if the
1:41:49investigation leads us to conclude that
1:41:51there is anything structurally deficient
1:41:53about the the continued safe operations
1:41:56of the the shuttle system we positively
1:41:59will take that as a very strong uh
1:42:02element of the investigation findings
1:42:04and make judgments accordingly that may
1:42:06lead us in the kinds of directions
1:42:07you're talking about in the interim
1:42:09again our approach is as I discussed
1:42:12with Congressman rohrbacher we tear down
1:42:14this system about every eight to ten
1:42:16flights essentially rebuild it as new
1:42:19and it goes through that 18 to 24 month
1:42:22Orbiter major modification program and
1:42:25so every time that asset goes up there
1:42:26it is as safe as we know how to make it
1:42:28we'll never drive the risk out entirely
1:42:31but we're trying to manage it down to
1:42:33the lowest possible level and assure
1:42:35that anything that appears even vaguely
1:42:37awry is beaten to parade rest before we
1:42:40let the the flight take off and during
1:42:42orbit as well gentleman's time is
1:42:44expired Mr Calvert thank you Mr chairman
1:42:47uh thank you for Miss Mr O'Keefe for
1:42:49attending today and certainly my
1:42:51sympathies to the family and to the to
1:42:53the NASA family that's certainly still
1:42:55grieving over this loss
1:42:57um
1:42:58I think all of us here today share one
1:43:01thing and that's that we desire an
1:43:03independent assessment
1:43:04unbiased and with the highest Integrity
1:43:06insurer
1:43:08the future astronauts NASA this Congress
1:43:11and the country have confidence in its
1:43:13ultimate result
1:43:15certainly you're off to a good start and
1:43:17I certainly appreciate that and I know
1:43:19that we do in the country does but as
1:43:21chairman bowler has indicated it may be
1:43:23necessary that changes be made to make
1:43:26sure we maintain that confidence and I
1:43:28thankful that you're open-minded to that
1:43:32it's reported that we have a certain
1:43:35amount of money appropriate I believe
1:43:36about 50 million dollars for NASA to uh
1:43:40to complete this investigation
1:43:42is that funding adequate to pursue in
1:43:44your in your mind to the to the levels
1:43:47that we're discussing
1:43:49I don't know sir uh the as I understand
1:43:52it that's part of the current
1:43:53Appropriations conference deliberations
1:43:55I've I've read the same press accounts
1:43:57you have I have no other knowledge of
1:43:59what you and your colleagues may have in
1:44:01mind for that Omnibus Appropriations
1:44:03Bill provisioning and so I can't make an
1:44:05assessment of that and I don't know what
1:44:07the cost of this will be other than to
1:44:08say that whatever it costs that's what
1:44:10we ought to spend in order to be sure
1:44:12that we reach the answers to what caused
1:44:14this accident
1:44:16um obviously NASA is not the only agency
1:44:18that's going to be involved in this
1:44:20investigation are you receiving
1:44:22cooperation from other agencies a full
1:44:25cooperation yes sir it's overwhelming
1:44:28there is no hesitancy there is no
1:44:31confusion of how that process works I've
1:44:34just been amazed to see how
1:44:36forward-leaning 20 different federal
1:44:38agencies state and local law enforcement
1:44:41officials from Texas and Louisiana have
1:44:43been and helping us work through what is
1:44:45a real nightmare a circumstance in a way
1:44:47that's professional above board and
1:44:49fully Cooperative no hesitation on that
1:44:51point at all and that also would apply
1:44:53to the contractors that are involved in
1:44:55this program sure absolutely
1:44:57um I know I've read the press for quotes
1:45:00uh you uh mentioned just as yesterday
1:45:02you had no favorite theories of what
1:45:05occurred and I I understand that
1:45:08um
1:45:09however as we move forward in this
1:45:12Congress
1:45:13I I guess what that would
1:45:17Mr rohrbacher and others have indicated
1:45:20do you believe because of the age of the
1:45:23shuttle there is any systemic problem
1:45:26that that may be there and um what's our
1:45:30Alternatives if in fact that's the case
1:45:32again none that I'm aware of and again
1:45:34we go through an exhaustive process to
1:45:36assure that safety of flight operations
1:45:38is adhered to each and every time this
1:45:41is not a one one shot deal it's every
1:45:43every time it comes back the orbiters
1:45:45return we do a careful inspection we go
1:45:48through a very exhaustive review of
1:45:50everything and we do not roll it out
1:45:52immediately there's an Orbiter
1:45:54processing facility effort that goes on
1:45:57for the better part of three months as
1:45:58we move it through an exhaustive
1:46:00examination and then when it gets out to
1:46:03the launch pad typically it's there for
1:46:04the better part of 30 days in order to
1:46:07make sure every single thing checks out
1:46:09so if there's something systemically
1:46:11wrong we will be guided by the the
1:46:14gaming board's view of that and we'll
1:46:16correct it but based on our assessment
1:46:18right now and everything we've done uh
1:46:21it sure doesn't look like a systemic
1:46:22failure but if it is we positively will
1:46:25correct that before we launch ever again
1:46:27thank you thank you
1:46:31Senator Durkin
1:46:34Mr O'Keefe thank you for before being
1:46:36here today uh I I think most of us feel
1:46:39that a nation that doesn't explore as a
1:46:41nation that's standing still and and
1:46:43this space program must continue
1:46:46exploring the frontiers of space I want
1:46:50to ask you a question and I don't want
1:46:52you to think the origin of my question
1:46:54poses any distrust for you or the men
1:46:56and women of NASA I have great
1:46:58admiration for your leadership and also
1:47:00for the men and women of NASA
1:47:02but as we attempt to find out what
1:47:04happened with this tragedy it seems to
1:47:07me that in almost any circumstance of
1:47:09this type an agency can't very
1:47:11effectively investigate itself
1:47:13I feel there's ought to be a
1:47:16presidential commission in panel I would
1:47:18ask the question have you had a chance
1:47:20to visit with President Bush about the
1:47:22prospect of that and can it be done in
1:47:25enveloping
1:47:26reconfiguring the kind of commission
1:47:29that you have now created yes sir no yes
1:47:31indeed we have visited on the question
1:47:33uh to to print the president as well as
1:47:36vice president and all the senior staff
1:47:37on the issue and I guess the approach
1:47:39that that history is a guide in these
1:47:42cases
1:47:43in the Challenger accident it was five
1:47:46days after the accident the President
1:47:48Reagan announced the intent to appoint a
1:47:50commission it was the better part of 10
1:47:52days to two weeks before they assembled
1:47:54it was probably the better end of three
1:47:56to four weeks before they were fully
1:47:58prepared to engage and really start
1:48:01taking testimony and doing the things
1:48:02that were necessary
1:48:04and they still nonetheless produced a a
1:48:07set of findings and recommendations
1:48:10uh by June of 1986 so roughly six months
1:48:14after the the accident they were able to
1:48:17reach some conclusions in this
1:48:19circumstance given the the development
1:48:22of this contingency plan that we put
1:48:23together uh and as in lesson learned
1:48:26from Challenger and there was an awful
1:48:28lot that we learned out of that event
1:48:29that really informed us about how we
1:48:31ought to go ahead and look at ourselves
1:48:34and how we do business and what it
1:48:36called for as part of that contingency
1:48:37plan was to identify by positions the
1:48:41kinds of people that ought to be
1:48:43activated who are non-nasa uh uh
1:48:46individuals and experts and mobilize
1:48:49them right away and so as a consequence
1:48:51what we defaulted in favor of in this
1:48:52case was speed and we had an opportunity
1:48:55then to have all the members except one
1:48:58who is a NASA Center Director of a
1:49:00non-space flight center who has no
1:49:02involvement with space flight at all Who
1:49:04was appointed to that particular board
1:49:05everybody else is removed from it well
1:49:08and we're moving ahead in that regard as
1:49:10into tenant as we can possibly make that
1:49:11can I make the point that I think you
1:49:13did exactly the right thing because you
1:49:15don't want time to elapse you took
1:49:16action and did the right thing I'm
1:49:18asking I guess as we go along whether a
1:49:21presidential commission can now envelop
1:49:24reconfigure the commission that you have
1:49:26started I I really do think that a year
1:49:30from now three five years from now the
1:49:33question people will ask was could NASA
1:49:35really have investigated itself again I
1:49:38don't say that with any distrust at all
1:49:39I think you've got a great organization
1:49:41but I really do hope as we go along here
1:49:43we're finding a way to to perhaps have a
1:49:46presidential commission we don't want to
1:49:49duplicate different investigations but I
1:49:51think this can be done in the right way
1:49:53and will resolve these questions of
1:49:55Independence that's right so let me uh
1:49:58wish you well and and please extend on
1:50:00behalf of all of us in Congress our
1:50:02thoughts and prayers to the men and
1:50:03women of NASA thank you Senator we're
1:50:05committed to exactly the same objective
1:50:07we want to find the answers and we want
1:50:08it to be credible and there's no
1:50:10question about that at all so whatever
1:50:12it's going to take in order to do that
1:50:13that's what we are committed to doing uh
1:50:16and the process again is not
1:50:17investigating ourselves this is an
1:50:19independent group of folks who have no
1:50:21you know baggage to carry as it pertains
1:50:23to you know NASA biases Admiral Gaiman
1:50:26uh came from uh distinguished Naval
1:50:29career year that had no involvement
1:50:30whatsoever with NASA and yet at the same
1:50:33time I think he's had a lot of
1:50:34experience as all the other members did
1:50:36a better than 50 different
1:50:37investigations on into accident
1:50:39situations so this is not a group of
1:50:42NASA investigating itself this is going
1:50:44to be an independent group that's going
1:50:45to reach some conclusions and we want to
1:50:47make sure that's as credible as we can
1:50:49possibly make it because that's going to
1:50:51turn on I think the trust and confidence
1:50:53of the American people depend upon that
1:50:54your point is exactly right I associate
1:50:56myself with that sentiment as well Mr
1:50:59Lamson
1:51:00I want to thank you Mr O'Keefe for
1:51:03coming to Capitol Hill to testify today
1:51:04and as a member of Congress who
1:51:06represents the Johnson Space Center I
1:51:08would also want to thank you and your
1:51:10NASA team for the support and
1:51:11encouragement that you've provided to
1:51:13the Space Center community in Houston
1:51:15during this very difficult time
1:51:18I'm somewhat a reluctant participant in
1:51:20this hearing today is the 11th day since
1:51:23the tragic loss of space shuttle
1:51:25Columbia there's so much that we do not
1:51:27yet know and perhaps some things that we
1:51:30may never know
1:51:31it's my understanding that there were no
1:51:33Congressional hearings on the Challenger
1:51:35investigation in 1986 until after the
1:51:37Rogers commission completed their report
1:51:39four months later when I know we're
1:51:42operating under different circumstances
1:51:43with three astronauts orbiting the earth
1:51:45and the International Space Station
1:51:47I do question the merits of having this
1:51:49hearing so soon after the Columbia
1:51:50shuttle accident
1:51:52I believe Congress needs to allow the
1:51:54investigation to move forward and to let
1:51:56the accident investigation board members
1:51:58do their work hopefully we will
1:52:00complement your efforts and not impede
1:52:02the process that being said
1:52:04I firmly believe that the administration
1:52:06needs to move forward with a truly
1:52:08independent investigation similar to
1:52:10what President Reagan appointed in 1986
1:52:12after the Challenger accident I think
1:52:15NASA made a good first step by revising
1:52:17the board's Charter last week but I
1:52:18still believe as my colleagues have
1:52:20stated that NASA's external
1:52:22investigation team is too closely tied
1:52:24to the agency
1:52:25as NASA administrator the board's
1:52:28Charter allows you to appoint the team
1:52:30members to staff the board with NASA
1:52:32employees and receive the final report
1:52:34in order for this review to have
1:52:36credibility I believe it needs to have
1:52:38team members who are truly independent
1:52:40any report to the White House in
1:52:42Congress
1:52:43also seeing all the cameras and the
1:52:46media presence in this hearing room
1:52:48today begs the question where was all of
1:52:51this attention to our human space
1:52:53flight programs before February 1st
1:52:56while I applaud the renewed interest I
1:52:58regret that it takes the loss of seven
1:53:01fine astronauts for our space program to
1:53:03make the front page of the newspaper or
1:53:06the top story on the evening news
1:53:08and while it may seem routine the work
1:53:10that is being done by NASA in our outer
1:53:12space is far from routine we're doing so
1:53:15many great things in space that benefit
1:53:17us right here on Earth My Hope Is that
1:53:19somehow this terrible tragedy will spur
1:53:21the administration to develop the an
1:53:23interest in a real truly robust space
1:53:26program and I'd like to call for a new
1:53:29space race for the 21st century this
1:53:31space race is not against the co- old
1:53:34Cold War enemy or an emerging power in
1:53:37the East but rather our new space race
1:53:40needs to be against ourselves for our
1:53:42own future and let me ask two things Mr
1:53:45O'Keefe first a copy of the outgoing
1:53:47plan uh uh are the contingency plan for
1:53:51the International Space Station that you
1:53:52referred to a few minutes ago could you
1:53:54possibly get that to us within the next
1:53:56week or so we would appreciate it and
1:53:58then let me ask in 1999 when problems
1:54:00with the experimental x33 reusable
1:54:02launch vehicle demonstrator made it
1:54:04clear the space shuttle would have to be
1:54:06relied on for many more you years
1:54:08perhaps until 2020. the Clinton
1:54:10administration's OMB sensibly increased
1:54:13the space shuttle upgrades budget
1:54:14significantly however in 2001 the bush
1:54:17administration's OMB of which you were
1:54:19deputy director simultaneously canceled
1:54:22x-33 program and cut the space shuttle
1:54:26safety upgrades budget
1:54:28how can that possibly have made sense
1:54:30and can you tell us why you did that
1:54:32uh
1:54:34again I'd have to go back and take a
1:54:35look at when NASA canceled the x-33
1:54:38program and exactly what was was leading
1:54:40to that particular case but if I could
1:54:41get slide 16 please
1:54:44um the the history over the course of
1:54:46the time as I understand it was a span
1:54:49that you'll see on this particular slide
1:54:50that was for shuttle funding over the
1:54:53course of that time
1:54:54the increase that you see occurred again
1:54:58as part of the fiscal year 03 budget
1:55:01proposal that we've made and 04 that was
1:55:03just submitted to the Congress last
1:55:04Monday so that my my reading of the of
1:55:08the the data and the information is that
1:55:10there's an awful lot to this particular
1:55:12change in funding profile over the span
1:55:15of time but it was primarily driven by a
1:55:18concurrent uh I think focus on safety
1:55:21improvements and and and kind of
1:55:23concentrating on all of the uh factors
1:55:27that would lead to safe flight
1:55:28operations and concurrently efficiencies
1:55:30that drove down the cost of guaranteeing
1:55:33those particular safe flight operations
1:55:34through the 90s and the most significant
1:55:37increase that's occurred is part of the
1:55:39fiscal year 03 budget amendment the
1:55:40president submitted last November and
1:55:43the fiscal year 04 budget that was
1:55:44submitted last Monday so those are the
1:55:47primary increases that I've been able to
1:55:49examine but certainly be prepared to
1:55:50submit all that for the record for your
1:55:52consideration sir thank you Senator
1:55:54Allen one other comment if I could uh
1:55:55sir is just to reiterate again that the
1:55:57gaming commission will report to all of
1:56:00us
1:56:01you can report to the president to
1:56:03Congress to all the American people as
1:56:05soon as they reach findings I have no
1:56:07intention whatsoever of putting any
1:56:09value added to their findings as soon as
1:56:11the ink is dry it will be released by
1:56:14Hal Gaiman there is no other approach
1:56:16that I can think of that would be a more
1:56:19appropriate way to handle this so we can
1:56:21move on with finding what the solution
1:56:23is to the problem get the answers to it
1:56:25and make the corrections necessary to
1:56:27get back to Flying safely thank you
1:56:29Senator Allen thank you Mr chairman
1:56:31thank you Mr O'Keefe for being here
1:56:35I want to associate myself with some of
1:56:37the the thoughts and philosophy
1:56:40stated in the beginning by our chairman
1:56:41Senator McCain
1:56:43and I want to focus on the long-term
1:56:45goals of of NASA broader goals if
1:56:48anything good can come out of this
1:56:50tragedy I think it would be the
1:56:51reinvigorated focus on the mission
1:56:53primary mission of NASA which ought to
1:56:56be scientific research that has benefits
1:56:58for people here on Earth and I think
1:57:01such sensible strategic planning
1:57:04would be a salutary goal and part of the
1:57:07legacy of the tragic loss of these brave
1:57:10men and women and I know that of
1:57:13Paramount concern to you and all the
1:57:14people in NASA is safety and safety for
1:57:17humans and primarily
1:57:20the
1:57:22previously before this tragedy I know
1:57:25you were on record to supporting
1:57:26refurbished or upgraded shuttles so they
1:57:28can remain operational for the next 10
1:57:30to 20 years
1:57:32I think in examining the broader goals
1:57:34of NASA it would be helpful if we'd
1:57:36have some consideration of what is going
1:57:40to be the next Orbiter there are so many
1:57:42questions that we have to determine and
1:57:45this is just the beginning of this
1:57:46examination once we get into our
1:57:48committees in the House and Senate we'll
1:57:49get in Greater detail but my question
1:57:52is is specific on Automation and
1:57:55Robotics and how can Robotics and uh
1:57:59Automation and advances in technology
1:58:01how can that make it safer it is less
1:58:05costly but it's also safer for human
1:58:07life and so is nasics considering an
1:58:10entirely new space plane Orbiter or
1:58:13downsizing the manned space flight
1:58:14depending on which option is chosen how
1:58:17will that shape our efforts our efforts
1:58:20also it's it's the 30 billion dollars of
1:58:24course that we've already invested in
1:58:25this space station the International
1:58:27Space Station isn't as as an investment
1:58:30but where are we in in embracing some of
1:58:34these advancements in Automation and
1:58:36Robotics and in the strategic planning
1:58:38will it affect the continued dangerously
1:58:42underfunding of of Aeronautics which I
1:58:44think have tangible
1:58:46benefits to us militarily as well as in
1:58:49the commercial markets so if you'd like
1:58:51your thoughts on on these key paths that
1:58:54we need to go down and decide which ones
1:58:57we're going to go down in the future
1:58:58thank you Senator it is
1:59:01in my judgment not a an issue of either
1:59:04or robotics or human space flight it's
1:59:07how do you do it compatibly how do you
1:59:09find the appropriate
1:59:11role for robotic capabilities that set
1:59:14and advance
1:59:15the kind of knowledge base that you need
1:59:17in order to then support when necessary
1:59:20and in the circumstances where human
1:59:23intervention and human involvement then
1:59:25becomes a very critical again the Hubble
1:59:27telescope is the classic example here's
1:59:30a marvelous piece of Machinery that
1:59:31didn't work and the only way it could be
1:59:33adjusted was to have human involvement
1:59:36in order to make those adjustments on
1:59:37each of the respective servicing
1:59:39missions that have gone on and now it's
1:59:41it's it is rewriting the astronomy books
1:59:43it is a classic example of how that
1:59:46compatibility between Robotics and the
1:59:48use of human space flight Intervention
1:59:51when necessary can advance the knowledge
1:59:53base dramatically but we have to really
1:59:56focus on the risk management side of
1:59:58this and assure that we always use those
2:00:00robotic capabilities I think as you've
2:00:01suggested as a way to fully you know
2:00:04beat down any of the the manageable risk
2:00:07that we see before involving a human
2:00:10space flight capability for that reason
2:00:12as well as being careful about when you
2:00:15utilize uh the human involvement
2:00:17Dimension to this that's part of the
2:00:18reason and a lot of the reason why the
2:00:21Mars program that we're pursuing uh for
2:00:23the Mars Landers that are planning for
2:00:24later this year and arriving in January
2:00:27of 04 is to advance that knowledge base
2:00:29understand fully what's going on in
2:00:32order to then fully support what could
2:00:34be down the road a human uh a mission
2:00:37that could support that case if deemed
2:00:39appropriate necessary and supported by
2:00:42the research and the science
2:00:43opportunities that could be yielded so
2:00:46the strategy you've talked about and the
2:00:48approach that you're alluding to is
2:00:49precisely the direction we're trying to
2:00:51develop now and have been for some time
2:00:53as a means to complement those
2:00:55capabilities and always use the robotic
2:00:57capacity up front as the means to inform
2:01:00those judgments gentlemen's time is
2:01:02expired Mr Lucas you senator
2:01:05thank you Mr chairman Mr director down
2:01:07at the Smithsonian they have a piece of
2:01:09your old equipment hanging for all the
2:01:11world to see the X-15 from the 1960s
2:01:15which is a symbol of a debate and a
2:01:17decision by the generation ahead of you
2:01:18and I that in the spirit of satisfying
2:01:22the common need of the United States
2:01:24Congress and the American people for
2:01:25immediate gratification that it was
2:01:27better to strap men and women equipment
2:01:29on ballistic missiles than it was to
2:01:31focus on creating space planes
2:01:34your comments today
2:01:36you point out about the potential future
2:01:38for an orbital space plane and the
2:01:40reusable launch vehicles with reasonable
2:01:43budget and reasonable Focus how far down
2:01:45the road are we talking about before we
2:01:48have
2:01:48functioning replacement systems like
2:01:51that
2:01:52well as a budget before the Congress as
2:01:55part of the amended fiscal year 03
2:01:57proposal the president made last
2:01:59November would kind of played a
2:02:01technology demonstrator of the orbital
2:02:04space plane as early as fiscal year 06
2:02:07flight testing and so forth to occur as
2:02:11soon as next summer it would lead up to
2:02:14that technology demonstrator then from
2:02:16there to developing as we've now
2:02:18completed the the essential Baseline
2:02:21requirements if you will look for
2:02:23competing approaches uh not a technology
2:02:25demonstrated but an operational vehicle
2:02:27that would accomplish the objectives of
2:02:29both rescue and return capacity as well
2:02:32as transfer to International Space
2:02:34Station that would be online we would
2:02:36hope as early as the end of this decade
2:02:38and we're kind of moving in that
2:02:40direction to try to establish that this
2:02:42would be a complementary capability to
2:02:45the Space Shuttle and use the space
2:02:47shuttle primarily as a cargo capacity
2:02:49heavy lift ability rather than trying to
2:02:52make a vehicle that's all things to all
2:02:54requirements this would be a crew
2:02:57transfer capability that would be
2:02:58maneuverable flexible and responsive to
2:03:02those kinds of circumstances where
2:03:03needed most booster slash plane or
2:03:06two-stage plane director it is initially
2:03:09planned as a capability mounted Atop A
2:03:12Expendable launch vehicle and that
2:03:14technology demonstrator will be that
2:03:17initial capability that we will utilize
2:03:19at that time
2:03:20along that line since it's obvious that
2:03:23without amount of effort required and
2:03:25the need as you've pointed out so
2:03:27consequently to keep the Workhorse the
2:03:29old shuttle up and going could you
2:03:31address for a moment some of the
2:03:32discussion we've had on the committee
2:03:34for some time about the effect on the
2:03:36reduction in the number of people who
2:03:38full-time employees who support the
2:03:40shuttle over the last the last decade
2:03:42literally what one-third less people
2:03:44still making if not the same number of
2:03:47but even a greater number of safety
2:03:48checks absolutely I think the the
2:03:50history appears to suggest and again
2:03:53we'll be guided a lot by the the review
2:03:55that the investigation board will go
2:03:57through in terms of looking at the
2:03:58systemic causes of what may have been
2:04:00there so their Charter is very Broad and
2:04:02their their scope is is rather extensive
2:04:04but it would appear as though that the
2:04:06the as exactly as you've suggested the
2:04:09history is that while cost reductions
2:04:11and and efficiencies were gained over
2:04:13the course of that period as previously
2:04:16described on the slide there were also
2:04:18improvements in the safety margins as
2:04:22well as the the reduction of incidents
2:04:25prior to launch on orbit incidents you
2:04:28name it there were all the trends were
2:04:30moving in a direction that proved or
2:04:32demonstrated uh greater efficiency in
2:04:34addition to slide 18 if you will that
2:04:38would approve the the capabilities I
2:04:40think that have been have significantly
2:04:42improved over this span both decreasing
2:04:45incidents and increasing efficiencies
2:04:46but again all that is is based on the
2:04:50the data and the information we see over
2:04:52this particular trend line we're going
2:04:54to be guided by what the the systemic
2:04:56causes are that the investigation board
2:04:58may come back and look at for this
2:04:59information and say that may or may not
2:05:02have been a contributing factor to it
2:05:03will be guided by their View
2:05:05German's time has expired Mr Lucas
2:05:09thank you Mr chairman Mr director down
2:05:12at the Smithsonian they have a piece of
2:05:13your old equipment hanging for all the
2:05:16world to see the X-15 from the 1960s
2:05:19which is a symbol of a debate and a
2:05:21decision by the generation ahead of you
2:05:23and I
2:05:24that in the spirit of satisfying the
2:05:27common need of the United States
2:05:28Congress and the American people for
2:05:30immediate gratification that it was
2:05:32better to strap men and women equipment
2:05:33on ballistic missiles than it was to
2:05:36focus on creating space planes
2:05:38your comments today
2:05:40you point out about the potential future
2:05:42for an orbital space plane and the
2:05:44reusable launch vehicles with reasonable
2:05:47budget and reasonable Focus how far down
2:05:50the road are we talking about before we
2:05:52have
2:05:53functioning replacement systems like
2:05:55that
2:05:56well as a budget before the Congress as
2:05:59part of the amended fiscal Euro 3
2:06:02proposal the president made last
2:06:03November would contemplate a technology
2:06:06demonstrator of the orbital space plane
2:06:09as early as fiscal year 06 flight
2:06:12testing and so forth to occur as soon as
2:06:16next summer it would lead up to that
2:06:18technology demonstrator then from there
2:06:20to developing as we've now completed the
2:06:23the essential Baseline requirements if
2:06:26you will look for competing approaches
2:06:28uh not a technology demonstrated but an
2:06:30operational vehicle that would
2:06:32accomplish the objectives of both rescue
2:06:34and return capacity as well as transfer
2:06:37to International Space Station that
2:06:39would be online we would hope as early
2:06:41as the end of this decade and we're kind
2:06:43of moving in that direction to try to
2:06:45establish that this would be a
2:06:47complementary capability to the Space
2:06:50Shuttle and use the space shuttle
2:06:52primarily as a cargo capacity heavy lift
2:06:54ability rather than trying to make a
2:06:57vehicle that's all things to all
2:06:59requirements this would be a crew
2:07:01transfer capability that would be
2:07:02maneuverable flexible and responsive to
2:07:06those kinds of circumstances where
2:07:07needed most booster slash plane or
2:07:10two-stage plane director it is initially
2:07:13planned as a capability mounted Atop A
2:07:16Expendable launch vehicle and that
2:07:18technology demonstrator will be that
2:07:21initial capability that we will utilize
2:07:23at that time
2:07:24along that line since it's obvious that
2:07:27without amount of effort required and
2:07:29the need as you've pointed out so
2:07:31conseinctly to keep the Workhorse the
2:07:33old shuttle up and going could you
2:07:35address for a moment some of the
2:07:36discussion we've had on the committee
2:07:38for some time about the effect on the
2:07:40reduction in the number of people who
2:07:42full-time employees who support the
2:07:45shuttle over the last the last decade
2:07:46literally what one-third less people
2:07:49still making if not the same number of
2:07:51but even a greater number of safety
2:07:53checks absolutely I think the the
2:07:55history appears to suggest and again
2:07:57we'll be guided a lot by the the review
2:08:00that the investigation board will go
2:08:01through in terms of looking at the
2:08:02systemic causes of what may have been
2:08:05there so their Charter is very Broad and
2:08:07their their scope is is rather extensive
2:08:09but it would appear as though that the
2:08:11the as exactly as you've suggested the
2:08:13history is that while cost reductions
2:08:15and and efficiencies were gained over
2:08:17the course of that period uh as
2:08:19previously described on a slide there
2:08:22were also improvements in the safety
2:08:25margins as well as the uh the reduction
2:08:28of incidents prior to launch on-orbit
2:08:31incidents you name it there were all the
2:08:33trends were moving in a direction that
2:08:35proved or demonstrated greater
2:08:38efficiency in addition to slide 18 if
2:08:41you will that would approve the the
2:08:44capabilities I think that have been have
2:08:46significantly improved over this span
2:08:48both decreasing incidents and increasing
2:08:50efficiencies but again all that is is
2:08:53based on the the data and the
2:08:55information we see over this particular
2:08:57trend line we're going to be guided by
2:08:59what the the systemic causes are that
2:09:01the investigation board may come back
2:09:03and look at for this information and say
2:09:04that may or may not have been a
2:09:06contributing factor to it we'll be
2:09:07guided by their view thank you director
2:09:10thank you sir
2:09:11Senator boxer
2:09:14thank you
2:09:16thank you very much
2:09:18um
2:09:20Mr O'Keefe
2:09:22I want to join my colleagues in sending
2:09:25condolences to the families and also my
2:09:29feelings of
2:09:31condolence as well to NASA in California
2:09:34where the birthplace of the shuttle
2:09:36program we hold a very special place in
2:09:39our heart for the heroes who conduct
2:09:41these flights and it's in this spirit
2:09:44that I ask my questions
2:09:46um
2:09:47in the year 2000 your safety panel made
2:09:50a very clear recommendation I asked
2:09:52unanimous consent that I placed this
2:09:54page in the record
2:09:56I trust without objection that will be
2:09:58done
2:09:59this is uh a quote the presidential
2:10:03commission on the shuttle Challenger
2:10:05accident addressed crew escape in their
2:10:07report and recommended that NASA make
2:10:09all efforts to provide a crew escape
2:10:11system
2:10:12NASA responded by initiating crew escape
2:10:15studies this is in the safety panel then
2:10:18it says over the lifetime of the Space
2:10:20Shuttle reliable post-launch crew escape
2:10:22system will provide the largest
2:10:25potential Improvement in crew safety
2:10:27NASA has completed or has underway a
2:10:30number of studies that also suggests
2:10:32such a system is feasible and then they
2:10:34say
2:10:35the time is past due for the
2:10:37implementation of a more capable crew
2:10:40escape system
2:10:42now Mr O'Keefe after that report was
2:10:45filed uh
2:10:47members of the safety panel were fired
2:10:50and I ask unanimous consent to put in
2:10:53the record the New York Times story
2:10:54entitled NASA dismissed advisors who
2:10:57warned about safety
2:10:59Mr chairman will you put that in the
2:11:01record for me
2:11:02Miss German
2:11:05Mr chairman not objection thank you
2:11:10um
2:11:11and after that report and after the
2:11:15people were fired four board members
2:11:17were fired two Consultants were fired
2:11:19one board member quit because he was
2:11:21upset at the firings that left you two
2:11:23people
2:11:25you changed the charter
2:11:27of the panel and I asked unanimous
2:11:30consent that the a new Charter in the
2:11:32Old Charter be placed in the record
2:11:34objection
2:11:35and in essence without going through the
2:11:38bureaucratic talk in here the new
2:11:41Charter Mr O'Keefe gives you much more
2:11:44power the NASA administrator not you
2:11:47personally
2:11:48in this case you personally more power
2:11:50to essentially veto who they choose as
2:11:54chair of the panel
2:11:56so I put all these pieces together Mr
2:11:58chairman and I have concern
2:12:01I see a report that clearly
2:12:04doesn't mince words here the time is
2:12:06past due for the implementation of a
2:12:08more capable crew escape system
2:12:11I see members being fired
2:12:14I then see a new Charter where now
2:12:16there's less Independence of the safety
2:12:19panel
2:12:20so I want to know how you feel about
2:12:23this array of facts first of all do you
2:12:26agree
2:12:27that the time is past due for the
2:12:29implementation of a more capable crew
2:12:31escape system and if you do
2:12:34why haven't we seen more done about it
2:12:36and number two why do you think those
2:12:39folks were fired
2:12:41uh and number three would you agree in
2:12:44light of your I believe very sincere
2:12:47comments that safety is a priority that
2:12:50you would go back to the old Charter
2:12:52where the panel could choose its own
2:12:54leader and not have the NASA
2:12:56administrator veto it
2:12:59thank you Senator on the first issue as
2:13:02it pertains to crew escape again there
2:13:04were a series of very important
2:13:06recommendations that came from the
2:13:08Rogers commission and and then or
2:13:10outgrowth of the post-challenger
2:13:12experience the changed operational
2:13:14procedures as it pertaining to crew uh
2:13:17crew escape and capabilities that were
2:13:19uh recommended therein and prior to
2:13:23launch there is a complete safety regime
2:13:25it's in place that didn't exist prior to
2:13:27Challenger because of their
2:13:28recommendations it's a very significant
2:13:31change
2:13:32having said that my understanding is
2:13:34that the analysis that went on a couple
2:13:36three years ago following that
2:13:38particular set of reports of the options
2:13:40all led to a a series of of technical
2:13:45modifications to the shuttle which would
2:13:47have increased its weight dramatically
2:13:49its operations its maneuverability and
2:13:52so therefore we're deemed to be a
2:13:54marginal improvements in safety that
2:13:56could be attained if at all and yet
2:13:59dramatically increase weight which would
2:14:01have compromised the safety of on orbit
2:14:04so you didn't agree with this
2:14:06recommendation I don't know how much
2:14:08time has expired well Mr chairman I'm
2:14:11just trying to see I'm sorry the general
2:14:12woman's time I know that you're sorry I
2:14:15know that you're sorry thank you I'm
2:14:16sorry Senator no it is my agreement
2:14:19notwithstanding or not I I again I'm not
2:14:22fully aware of all the parameters of it
2:14:24I'm advised that's what led the the
2:14:25folks to conclude uh two or three years
2:14:28ago having said that we are going to
2:14:29look at anything that the investigator
2:14:32board comes back with and says these are
2:14:34the changes that must be made in order
2:14:35to guarantee safe flight operations if
2:14:37it intent contains that particular set
2:14:39of questions which by the way were
2:14:41primarily pertaining to as I understand
2:14:43it asset requirements not decent
2:14:46capabilities that in turn those kinds of
2:14:50requirements be factored in and we make
2:14:51the changes appropriate to do so to your
2:14:53second Point as it pertains to the
2:14:55safety panel board composition it's
2:14:58Charter and so forth that occurred prior
2:15:01to my tenure I don't know exactly what
2:15:03the circumstances were a sort sort of of
2:15:07the press accounts and the folklore or
2:15:09legend that may have gone into who did
2:15:11what to who when
2:15:12nonetheless I do understand that in 97
2:15:15based on a report from the Inspector
2:15:17General at that time offered as how a
2:15:20Cadre of panel members with long-term
2:15:22experience and in-depth NASA knowledge
2:15:24is important but to be most effective
2:15:26this group must be routinely infused
2:15:29with the fresh perspective of new
2:15:30diverse members so as a consequence the
2:15:33inspector General's position as I
2:15:35understand it was acted upon by my
2:15:37predecessor uh suggestions were made as
2:15:40to to the Charter to limit the duration
2:15:42of
2:15:44um the tenure to two terms I believe of
2:15:47six years each we'll certainly go back
2:15:49and re-examine that if it's the desire
2:15:50on the part of the panel members to look
2:15:52at a different uh 10-year period of time
2:15:54that they think enhances their wisdom
2:15:57and understanding of the safety issues I
2:15:59am all ears on that the prior chairman
2:16:02introduced himself to me within 30 days
2:16:05of my arrival at Nasa as the outgoing
2:16:08chairman so I don't know how they
2:16:09arrived at who was going to become the
2:16:12chairman and who'd be the next
2:16:13chairperson but the current chair is the
2:16:15individual that was anointed and
2:16:17appointed I guess by me but with the
2:16:20concurrence of the board prior that time
2:16:22I made no objection to it and the only
2:16:24individual that is new to the board is
2:16:26one individual is added to it during the
2:16:28course of my tenure no one else has been
2:16:30released so I've really been trying to
2:16:31look at what the composition of the
2:16:33panel is and assure its advisory status
2:16:37that's the strongest we can possibly
2:16:38make it and changes made prior to that
2:16:41we'll certainly go back and revisit to
2:16:43assure that if they have different views
2:16:45that would enhance or strengthen their
2:16:47position that's what we want to hear we
2:16:49want to make sure that safety of
2:16:50operations adhere too at all times thank
2:16:52you very much Mr Udall could I could I
2:16:54just say I want to apologize to all
2:16:55members for enforcing the time limits
2:16:58here we do have such a large number of
2:17:00questioners and I'm
2:17:02members have been very patient and I
2:17:04appreciate that Mr Udall thank you Mr
2:17:06chairman I too want to thank Mr Keith
2:17:09for taking his time to join us today and
2:17:11I found your testimony insightful
2:17:13enlightening and in fact quite moving I
2:17:15want to thank you for your leadership
2:17:18um I know you're beginning to think
2:17:20you're in an echo chamber but I did also
2:17:21want to associate myself with the
2:17:23remarks of our chairman on the house
2:17:24side and the ranking member and others
2:17:26who verged you to create as an
2:17:29independent commission as possible and
2:17:31that we'll all be well served when those
2:17:34results are announced yes sir in my
2:17:37experience
2:17:38in my previous careers an outdoor
2:17:40educator and someone who's very involved
2:17:42in the climbing and mountaineering
2:17:44communities we found that when we had
2:17:45accidents that independent uh entities
2:17:48that had no fiduciary relationship or
2:17:51other relationship with those involved
2:17:52could make a quite accurate in
2:17:55objective determinations of what
2:17:58occurred so I want to lend my voice to
2:17:59those of others here
2:18:01I did also want to acknowledge the
2:18:04tremendous sacrifice and The Bravery of
2:18:06our astronauts and send my condolences
2:18:10to the family members and Friends of the
2:18:13Brave astronauts we've in Colorado have
2:18:16a proud history of involvement with with
2:18:19NASA in fact kalpana chawla was one of
2:18:22the members of the crew and she was a
2:18:24graduate of the University of Colorado
2:18:26so we feel that loss very deeply in in
2:18:29Colorado
2:18:31uh Mr chairman if I might I'd like to
2:18:32include in the record
2:18:34an article from from The New York Times
2:18:36on Monday February 10th that uh talks
2:18:40about all the tremendous benefits that
2:18:41have been generated by the space program
2:18:43I know there are some without objections
2:18:45though thank you there have been debates
2:18:48and discussions uh and comments that the
2:18:50astronauts were involved in the minor
2:18:53science projects while they were
2:18:55orbiting the Earth and I think if you
2:18:58look into the record uh in fact what's
2:19:01resulted from our space program is truly
2:19:03remarkable and day in and day out we see
2:19:05the results of those advancements here
2:19:07on here on Earth
2:19:10um if I could I'd like to
2:19:12focus a little bit on the space shuttle
2:19:14Orbiter and whether we ought to replace
2:19:16it do you have you gotten to the point
2:19:19where you have an opinion in that regard
2:19:20about the replacement
2:19:22of the Space Shuttle Orbiter yes sir the
2:19:25the integrated space Transportation plan
2:19:27that we're currently working with was
2:19:31devised over the course of last year and
2:19:33culminating in the November 13 2002
2:19:36amendment that the president submitted
2:19:38to the 2003 budget that when the
2:19:40Congress is still deliberating on at
2:19:42this time it's reinforced in the 2004
2:19:44budget submission the president made
2:19:46last Monday which is to look at all the
2:19:49elements of how these particular systems
2:19:51support each other I think for for a
2:19:53long time the in all the trends seem to
2:19:56suggest that every one of these were
2:19:57looked at as individual Standalone
2:19:58programs but there's a great inner
2:20:00relationship between them and the
2:20:02requirement for Space Shuttle
2:20:04capabilities both in terms of crew
2:20:06transfer which is how we typically have
2:20:10rotated the crews aboard the internet
2:20:12National Space Station as well as the
2:20:14launch of cargo Assets in other words
2:20:17all the the new pieces that are being
2:20:19installed on International Space Station
2:20:20to build out that laboratory that can't
2:20:23be duplicated here on Earth is a
2:20:25capability we've really got to look at
2:20:26in relationship to each other
2:20:28and to consider a crew transfer and
2:20:31rescue return capacity that can be
2:20:34introduced more aggressively than we
2:20:36presently have so the combination of
2:20:38both shuttle and how we maintain its
2:20:42cargo lift capacity for capabilities to
2:20:44continue to not only support but finish
2:20:46building the International Space Station
2:20:48the capability to transfer a crew in
2:20:50order to rotate the Expedition cruise
2:20:52that we've seen now in our here we are
2:20:54in our third year of permanent presence
2:20:56on board that system as well as the
2:20:59orbital space plane that would provide
2:21:01that capability all three of those
2:21:03dimensions and then the next Generation
2:21:05launch Technologies to ultimately
2:21:07replace the cargo capacity is our focus
2:21:09in that Amendment as well as in the
2:21:12present budget before the Congress right
2:21:13now Mr chairman I don't know where my
2:21:15time is but this what is the status of
2:21:17the Orbiter over time is expired Senator
2:21:19Wyden thank you Mr chairman
2:21:21administrator O'Keefe when I chaired
2:21:23your confirmation hearings I found you
2:21:25to be honest and candid and we're going
2:21:27to need an awful lot of that in the days
2:21:28ahead and appreciate your being here my
2:21:31first question deals with the huge brain
2:21:33drain situation at Nasa it seems to me
2:21:37that you all are hemorrhaging talent in
2:21:39key areas like electrical engineering
2:21:41and I think this has implications both
2:21:44for the short term and the long term the
2:21:48February first date for example on that
2:21:50date you all were being pushed to in
2:21:53effect use more outside contractors and
2:21:56fewer people within the agency and so
2:22:00some of course are saying that when we
2:22:03have a chance to study this is going to
2:22:05come back to people so I'd like you to
2:22:08comment on the brain drain problem both
2:22:10from the short term and the long term
2:22:13and what's being done to address it
2:22:17thank you Senator indeed that is a
2:22:18concern that as we've discussed
2:22:21previously as well as we've talked about
2:22:22in various hearings that we've over the
2:22:26course of the last dozen years or so
2:22:27we've seen a very clear Trend in the
2:22:30direction of an aging Workforce that are
2:22:33capable very strong professionals but it
2:22:36is nonetheless a very mature Workforce
2:22:38we've got three times as many scientists
2:22:40and Engineers that are over 60 as we
2:22:42have under 30. and so the the
2:22:44consequence of that set of decisions
2:22:46made and Years Gone by of bringing in
2:22:49additional Talent at gradations there's
2:22:52no way to instantly grow
2:22:55longevity as well as experience base
2:22:58what we submitted last June uh to the
2:23:01Congress was a series of legislative
2:23:03initiatives specifically focused on
2:23:05strategic management of human capital as
2:23:08has been advised by the general
2:23:09Accounting Office Dave Walker is the
2:23:11Controller General has consistently
2:23:13talked about this so we forwarded a
2:23:15series of legislative Provisions that
2:23:16have been sent to the Congress there are
2:23:18any appropriate Committees of
2:23:19jurisdiction or under consideration to
2:23:21try to deal with what those tools would
2:23:23be that we could use for the purpose of
2:23:25knowing retaining for the near-term
2:23:27period the kinds of capabilities and
2:23:29talent we have today but also recruiting
2:23:31Talent with some experience based from a
2:23:34variety of walks and backgrounds as well
2:23:37as bringing in new
2:23:39graduate students and and doctoral
2:23:41students who would replace that roughly
2:23:4360 percent of the workforce that is of
2:23:46scientific and Technical background
2:23:47you're exactly right it's a concern and
2:23:49we want to act I want to ask we look
2:23:51forward to the congress's early
2:23:52enactment of all those Provisions to to
2:23:54move us along that way I want to ask one
2:23:56other quick question I I think when we
2:23:58get to the bottom of this I think we're
2:23:59going to see that we've got to address
2:24:01this issue and I just pray that this
2:24:04tragic loss hasn't been due to some her
2:24:07human error the second question I had
2:24:09deals with man versus unmanned space
2:24:12flight I think that manned flights
2:24:14represent the aspirations and hopes of
2:24:17so many Americans but I will tell you I
2:24:20personally believe we're going to need
2:24:21to do more in the unmanned area I think
2:24:25it is going to be an imperative in the
2:24:28days ahead and I'd like your judgment as
2:24:31to how to make that call for example I'm
2:24:34attracted to the argument that when
2:24:36you're talking about the space station a
2:24:38few hundred miles you know up that
2:24:41wouldn't be as high a priority as really
2:24:43looking to Distant Worlds but I'd be
2:24:46curious how you'd go about tackling this
2:24:49question of making the tough calls with
2:24:51respect to manned versus unmanned I want
2:24:55to see the manned Expeditions go forward
2:24:57I do think we're going going to have to
2:24:59have a bigger role for unmanned
2:25:01Expeditions in the days ahead and I'd
2:25:03like to hear you tell us how you go
2:25:04about making those calls yes sir thank
2:25:06you Senator I think that's a you've hit
2:25:08the nail around the head we the strategy
2:25:10we've tried to employ here again is not
2:25:12an either or but very much a a
2:25:14combination of how do you best employ
2:25:16the robotic capabilities that we have to
2:25:19advance our knowledge base and
2:25:21understand what the challenges will be
2:25:23in order to assure the greatest
2:25:25probability of safety of flight
2:25:27operations when and if called upon to
2:25:31engage humans in that science and
2:25:33research set of objectives and so the
2:25:36approach that we've devised I think for
2:25:38example in the case of the the Mars uh
2:25:41Landers that are planned and explorers
2:25:43that are planned for later this year to
2:25:45do to arrive there in early 04 is to
2:25:50continue to build that knowledge base
2:25:51understanding the challenges and
2:25:53difficulties we will work with and the
2:25:55Inhibitors on exploration much Beyond
2:25:59where we are today typically are human
2:26:01related to be sure but it's partly
2:26:03technology related the first one is that
2:26:06that our limitations on capacity for
2:26:09propulsion speed to get anywhere is
2:26:12currently restricted by the same laws of
2:26:14physics we've been living with for 40
2:26:15years and so as a resultant two we
2:26:17developed an in-space propulsion
2:26:18capacity to dramatically reduce the time
2:26:21as well as the capacity to get anywhere
2:26:24we're going to be really restricted in
2:26:26terms of the the capabilities we have in
2:26:29that regard the second is is how to
2:26:31assure that humans survive the
2:26:32experience and as it stands now the
2:26:35exposure that we see and what we're
2:26:37learning on International Space Station
2:26:38as a consequence of long duration space
2:26:40flight or the debilitating effects on
2:26:43human beings of space travel and space
2:26:45exploration
2:26:46we're looking to conquer those part of
2:26:48the budget proposal you have before you
2:26:49as part of the 04 submission that the
2:26:52president just made is an intensive
2:26:54effort to look at human factors and only
2:26:56then after we've conquered those kinds
2:26:58of of challenges of degradation of
2:27:01muscle mass bone mass radiation effects
2:27:04all those things should we venture much
2:27:06Beyond where we have the capacity to do
2:27:09today which is a very important pursuit
2:27:12of science and research aboard station
2:27:13and other objectives so this is whole
2:27:16the whole strategy here is to lay this
2:27:18out in a way that informs the knowledge
2:27:20Base by robotic capabilities follow
2:27:22along to the extent necessary and win
2:27:24human intervention gives us the
2:27:26opportunity to expand that knowledge
2:27:27base and make sure they can only do it
2:27:29when there's a safety of flight
2:27:31capability that we can assure thank
2:27:33chairman well thank you Senator
2:27:34appreciate it very much
2:27:36thank you Mr chairman administrator
2:27:38O'Keefe thank you for coming and I have
2:27:40the highest confidence in your
2:27:41leadership as I do an admiral Gay Men's
2:27:44Leadership who did an outstanding job in
2:27:46investigating the USS Cole I have a very
2:27:49specific series of questions that you
2:27:52may not be able to answer here but I
2:27:54would like a thorough response for the
2:27:55record relative to one aspect of the
2:27:59operations of the shuttle and it deals
2:28:01with the tiles
2:28:02the um
2:28:04the tiles uh are glued to the shuttle by
2:28:07a special adhesive
2:28:09that adhesive has its primary component
2:28:13urea
2:28:14the urea that's produced is produced
2:28:16around the world and much of its for
2:28:18agriculture and Industrial purposes
2:28:21but the specific urea that NASA has used
2:28:24for the glue for the tiles was produced
2:28:27by one plant
2:28:29and that one plant was in Fort
2:28:31Saskatchewan Alberta Canada
2:28:34and the reason why that plant was
2:28:36selected was because none of the U.S
2:28:39manufacturers were able to meet the very
2:28:42stringent requirements that NASA had
2:28:44established for the urea for the glue
2:28:47for the tiles
2:28:49about five years ago that plant was
2:28:52acquired by another Canadian firm
2:28:54that does business in Cuba
2:28:57and because of that they were concerned
2:28:59about the implications of Helm's Burton
2:29:02legislation
2:29:03and so they no longer supplied NASA the
2:29:06urea for the glue for the tiles
2:29:09the U.S manufacturer of the adhesive
2:29:12that used that specific urea was very
2:29:15concerned at the time about finding a
2:29:18new source of urea that would meet the
2:29:20very specific tough requirements that
2:29:23NASA had for the glue to hold the tiles
2:29:26on
2:29:27and I would say there are millions of
2:29:28tons of urea consuming the U.S every
2:29:30year but only a very very small portion
2:29:33of it would be used specifically by NASA
2:29:36for the glue for the tiles and as I said
2:29:39before up until that that takeover five
2:29:44years ago it was from one plant in
2:29:47Canada that had a separate mechanism for
2:29:49producing that urea that U.S
2:29:51manufacturers did not or perhaps could
2:29:54not achieve the same quality standards
2:29:56that NASA required
2:29:58so what my concern is whether or not we
2:30:01found an equally reliable supplier of
2:30:04urea and for the record I'd like to give
2:30:06give us that information relative to the
2:30:09specifics of NASA specifications thank
2:30:11you yes sir no I I uh I don't know I
2:30:15really am not aware of the the nuances
2:30:17there but I positively will provide that
2:30:19for record thank you sir
2:30:21thank you Mr chairman
2:30:24Senator snow thank you Mr chairman and
2:30:27welcome to Mr O'Keefe I know this is a
2:30:30very trying time for you and the NASA
2:30:32family and most certainly the families
2:30:35of the astronauts and it just reminds us
2:30:38how fortunate we are as a nation to have
2:30:40been blessed with men and women like
2:30:43these astronauts who are willing to take
2:30:44risks for this this country
2:30:47I'm trying to get at the picture of how
2:30:51NASA approaches certain decisions what
2:30:53is minimized what is discounted uh we
2:30:55know that for 12 days from the time that
2:30:58you all learned the debris that hit uh
2:31:02this shuttle uh and when the shuttle was
2:31:04scheduled to land no action was taken
2:31:07other than doing some computer model
2:31:09simulations to predict damage
2:31:13and to rely on past experiences where
2:31:16shuttles had returned safely even though
2:31:18there had been several Stanford studies
2:31:21in 1990 and 1994 that had already warned
2:31:24of some potential damage that a single
2:31:27piece of debris could have had on the
2:31:29tiles
2:31:31could you tell me as to why
2:31:34no request was made for military
2:31:38telescope Imaging we know that a camera
2:31:41was not working at the time of orbit
2:31:44that really could have shown the damage
2:31:48that was done on the underside of the
2:31:50shuttle why wasn't that requested at
2:31:53some point in time during the flight to
2:31:57do a greater examination of this type of
2:32:01damage rather than relying on computer
2:32:04modeling
2:32:06on something you really didn't know what
2:32:08had happened rather than doing the
2:32:11modeling on something that you knew had
2:32:13happened
2:32:14and thank you Senator the the
2:32:16investigative uh process and certainly
2:32:19the the game and board if they come to
2:32:21find we should have done something else
2:32:23positively we'll be you know Guided by
2:32:25that particular finding nonetheless the
2:32:27the approach that was
2:32:29taken here is this is a a piece of foam
2:32:33material that was about a foot and a
2:32:35half by six inches
2:32:36of which there have been incidents like
2:32:39this before
2:32:40and as I mentioned earlier there are
2:32:42cases where after the flight there's a
2:32:45full examination of every square inch
2:32:47every single element of the Orbiter when
2:32:49it comes back to see what the damage
2:32:52effect was it was determined in previous
2:32:54cases of comparable circumstance not to
2:32:57have been a safety of flight
2:32:58consideration
2:33:00there is again the the circumstances
2:33:03here were it came off of the external
2:33:06tank
2:33:07um as the as the entire shuttle Orbiter
2:33:10system was traveling at 3 600 miles an
2:33:13hour
2:33:13uh the piece came off dropped roughly 40
2:33:16feet at us at a rate of something like
2:33:2050 miles an hour so it's the functional
2:33:22equivalent as one astronaut described to
2:33:24me of a styrofoam cooler blowing off of
2:33:27a pickup truck ahead of you on a highway
2:33:29and every incident would seem before
2:33:32that every model we ran every analysis
2:33:34that had been done on every prior case
2:33:36demonstrated no significant damage in
2:33:39that circumstance they were of the 4 000
2:33:42sensors aboard the the shuttle Orbiter
2:33:44none of them indicated any anomalies
2:33:47during that 16-day flight and given the
2:33:49wide variation of heat of several
2:33:52hundred degrees that was experienced 16
2:33:54times a day if there was any penetration
2:33:57any damage that could have been evident
2:33:59the the Assumption was Those sensors
2:34:02would have picked it up nonetheless if
2:34:04the gaming board finds that we really
2:34:06aired by not examining this and yet
2:34:09another Direction based on all the
2:34:11historical evidence we positively will
2:34:13run on that finding the ground and make
2:34:15corrective actions as necessary but
2:34:17wasn't this piece of debris the largest
2:34:21documented piece ever to hit the shuttle
2:34:24not to my knowledge but I will correct
2:34:25that for the record if that proves to be
2:34:27an error I I don't know whether that's
2:34:29true or not but I certainly will provide
2:34:31that for the record I guess the sign of
2:34:34the senator is up I'm sorry Mr Wu
2:34:40during my colleague's questions I took
2:34:43the liberty of drawing up a little
2:34:45diagram to illustrate my inquiry to you
2:34:48it's not a PowerPoint presentation it's
2:34:50just felt tip pen on a peachy
2:34:53um across the bottom here cuts
2:34:57in your budget and going up risk and the
2:35:01red line is the typical hockey puck kind
2:35:04of curve that some of us in high tech
2:35:06like to see in financial returns but we
2:35:08don't like to see in in this kind of
2:35:10context
2:35:12and earlier I heard you say that you are
2:35:16pounding out as much as much of the risk
2:35:18as possible before each and every
2:35:21shuttle launch
2:35:22but we also have a history of delayed
2:35:27improvements perhaps delayed in future
2:35:29generations of craft which may be safer
2:35:32and I am concerned that the tragic loss
2:35:35of Seven astronauts tells us that we are
2:35:38somewhere out on this leg of the curve
2:35:40and not somewhere here during you know
2:35:44in the flatter portion
2:35:46it's our job to try to set policies
2:35:50which maintain reasonable safety a job
2:35:52which we share with you
2:35:55you are a very good team player
2:35:57um you should be but in response to
2:36:00specific Congressional inquiry I think
2:36:02that you are free to answer those
2:36:04inquiries
2:36:06and I I want to make this a standing
2:36:10Congressional inquiry if you will that
2:36:13whatever the optimal budget is
2:36:16as we are adjusting that budget
2:36:19can you work with us to find that
2:36:22inflection point I'm concerned that we
2:36:25have gone past that inflection point and
2:36:27risk where the risk has become
2:36:29unacceptably High it is always going to
2:36:32be inherently risky to put human beings
2:36:34in space I'm a strong supporter of human
2:36:36space exploration
2:36:38but I want to invite you to work with us
2:36:42to find some reasonable point in here
2:36:44where we are not expending exceptional
2:36:47resources or unnecessarily expending
2:36:49resources but we are doing everything
2:36:52reasonable to keep humans safe in space
2:36:55sure no absolutely Congressman I'm
2:36:57delighted to uh to work with you to try
2:37:00to find what that break point is and
2:37:03again my appreciation if you get turnt
2:37:05slide 18 again please uh is that over
2:37:09the course of time we've seen a
2:37:11reduction in cost of of activities there
2:37:14is at the same time been an improvement
2:37:16in efficiencies and as well as the the
2:37:20reduction of in-flight anomalies
2:37:22technical scrubs have dropped by a lot
2:37:25uh all of the basic factors that would
2:37:28drive you to conclude that as your chart
2:37:30suggests as you reduce resources you
2:37:32should see an enhancement of risk if
2:37:35anything what appears to suggest here is
2:37:38a k where efficiencies have been
2:37:39attained and risk has been reduced so to
2:37:42the extent there's there are differences
2:37:44of view about that over the course of
2:37:46this past decade of whether or not that
2:37:48is the contributing factor to it we
2:37:50really are looking forward to to trying
2:37:52to determine how to correct that and if
2:37:54we've crossed that threshold I think you
2:37:56so eloquently alluded to we really ought
2:37:59to figure out exactly where we make
2:38:00those adjustments as necessary but the
2:38:03trends are the things that I think we
2:38:04needed to analyze here as well as just
2:38:06the basic Theory I think that you've
2:38:08Advanced which is a sound one
2:38:10I drew it in this way because if you
2:38:14have effectively reduced cost and
2:38:16reduced risk you've shifted this curve
2:38:19to the left or to the right up or down
2:38:21or diagonally but the curve is still
2:38:23there that's right if you if you make
2:38:26these assumptions that Central Point can
2:38:28be statistically determined and I just
2:38:30want to invite you as this curve shifts
2:38:32as policy shift to help us look for this
2:38:34curve you and I have been in this
2:38:36discussion before about the worthiness
2:38:38of human space flight and I want to
2:38:40remind you of our conversation that
2:38:42Lewis and Clark went West 200 years ago
2:38:45they got an appropriation of two
2:38:47thousand five hundred dollars they spent
2:38:48thirty eight thousand dollars and that
2:38:51caused President Jefferson a lot of
2:38:52Heartache but that turned out to be a
2:38:54pretty good deal for America in the long
2:38:56term and I would just encourage you to
2:39:00aggressively ask for what you need and
2:39:03to keep the Explorers safe gentlemen's
2:39:05time has inspired thank you Mr chairman
2:39:07thank you Mr Wu Senator Burns
2:39:12we need you on Appropriations
2:39:20David
2:39:23Mr O'Keefe I wish we were meeting under
2:39:25different circumstances but we are not
2:39:27and my question is a general question
2:39:29because
2:39:31I was um
2:39:33pretty close to the um
2:39:35the negotiations of the International
2:39:37Space Station and the agreement that we
2:39:39signed with with Russia
2:39:42and at that time I asked a question that
2:39:45we really didn't pursue for some reason
2:39:49or other
2:39:50I think it would help this committee
2:39:54if
2:39:57as you know we look at programs and the
2:40:00infrastructure that it takes to carry
2:40:02those programs out
2:40:05at the time we built the the Orbiter
2:40:12was there any estimates of what every
2:40:17program goes to is there is a point of
2:40:19diminishing returns
2:40:22whenever upgrades
2:40:25are not are not sufficient
2:40:29to carry out the mission
2:40:32and I'm wondering if if any estimates
2:40:35early on in this in this program were
2:40:39made by Engineers of what what point do
2:40:43we write do we do we come to a point of
2:40:45diminishing returns
2:40:48and if we look at that and then and I
2:40:50know programs change and missions change
2:40:54uh and if history tells us anything
2:40:57we should be looking at at those kind of
2:41:01things in order to change the way
2:41:05Congress should be shouldering its
2:41:08responsibility sir
2:41:11um and um and I would just ask if if
2:41:14there are any research could be done in
2:41:16your records
2:41:18of when do we reach that point
2:41:21did we reach that point
2:41:23and what was and and as programs change
2:41:26what is being dictated in the future if
2:41:30if if this equipment is going to be
2:41:32asked to do things maybe it was never
2:41:36intended to do
2:41:39um I'm look I'm I'm not going to go over
2:41:41the past because I've been intimately
2:41:43involved with it
2:41:45and no other program
2:41:47stimulates the Curiosity or the interest
2:41:49in our sciences and our mathematics in
2:41:52our schools like this particular agency
2:41:54of the United States government
2:41:57and so I deem it very very important
2:42:01but if we could have a history
2:42:04and see the things that we can do and
2:42:07then you do what you do best we may have
2:42:10to call on our older end of the
2:42:12engineers so to speak
2:42:15to make those determinations
2:42:17but I think it would help us a lot
2:42:20if if we could if we could reach it back
2:42:22there and look at history
2:42:25take a look what happened
2:42:27and then make some decisions to enable
2:42:29you we don't want to see this happen
2:42:31again but we know that we know that this
2:42:33goes we know this this will happen
2:42:36accidents will happen as especially in
2:42:38the area going into the unknown
2:42:41um and I thank you for being here today
2:42:43and and some explanation we've reached
2:42:45today I'm looking for history something
2:42:47that we base policy on into the future
2:42:50upon your recommendations no thank you
2:42:53senator be delighted to uh to provide
2:42:55that we'll go through that
2:42:56uh consideration there's no question
2:42:58that as it pertains to current flight
2:43:01operations I want to reiterate we have a
2:43:04a culture that is just obsessing over
2:43:07not letting anything go until it's all
2:43:10exactly right if the investigation board
2:43:13founds it systemically we have failed in
2:43:16that Quest that's precisely we'll be
2:43:18guided by as well but your point is very
2:43:19well taken I think we've got to really
2:43:21be thinking seriously about you know
2:43:23where is that stage where we really make
2:43:25those decisions and I think we'll
2:43:26provide that for sure I'll work through
2:43:28that analysis and uh and provide for the
2:43:31record as well I thank you for your
2:43:32leadership and I I appreciate your
2:43:34celebration thank you Senator appreciate
2:43:36it very much thank you very much we're
2:43:37going to take a brief five minute break
2:43:39five minutes only then we're right back
2:43:41and when we come back Mr nethercutt
2:43:43starts the questioning
2:43:45thank you
2:43:53[Music]
2:43:56we'll talk about the shuttle Columbia
2:43:58investigation on tomorrow morning's
2:44:00Washington Journal as we're joined by
2:44:01the chairman and ranking member of the
2:44:03House space sub committee Dana
2:44:05rohrabacher and Bart Gordon
2:44:07then it's on to policy towards Iraq with
2:44:10commentary from former Senator and 1972
2:44:13Democratic presidential candidate George
2:44:15McGovern
2:44:16and later Weekly Standard publisher
2:44:18William Crystal
2:44:19plus your phone calls and a look at the
2:44:21day's headlines it's all live starting
2:44:23at 7 A.M Eastern here on C-Span
2:44:26and check our website for more about the
2:44:28space shuttle Columbia read President
2:44:30Bush's Proclamation honoring the shuttle
2:44:32astronauts
2:44:33also find links to help you follow the
2:44:35story as investigators continue to try
2:44:38to determine what destroyed the Orbiter
2:44:39a little more than a week ago
2:44:42just point your browser to c-span.org
2:44:45[Music]
2:44:51more from the hearing on NASA and the
2:44:54shuttle in just a moment
2:44:56if you missed the beginning we'll show
2:44:57you the hearing again from the start in
2:44:59about an hour and 15 minutes
2:45:02thank you
2:45:09[Music]
2:45:17here's a quick look at what's on C-SPAN
2:45:193 tomorrow defense secretary Rumsfeld
2:45:22comes to Capitol Hill to testify about
2:45:24his Department's budget and National
2:45:26Security issues it's a senate armed
2:45:28services Committee hearing live coverage
2:45:30at 9 30 a.m Eastern
2:45:34you can see another hearing in the
2:45:36afternoon this one on retirement
2:45:38security and pensions a house Workforce
2:45:40subcommittee will hear from assistant
2:45:42labor secretary Ann Combs on the subject
2:45:44that's live starting at 1 pm Eastern
2:45:46again both hearings on our companion
2:45:48Network C-SPAN 3.
2:45:55[Music]
2:45:57the video will resume
2:46:03chair recognizes Mr nethercutt
2:46:07thank you Mr chairman and
2:46:10Mr O'Keefe I want to welcome you sir
2:46:12over here yeah I know I've moved sir um
2:46:17I appreciate your being here and I
2:46:19appreciate the sensitivity with which
2:46:21you and the entire NASA team reacted to
2:46:25this terrible tragedy uh certainly uh
2:46:28was touched by Senator Stevens remarks
2:46:30and and agree with them with respect to
2:46:31your integrity and your qualifications
2:46:33thank you Congress uh thank you uh the
2:46:38the crew that we lost touched
2:46:43my Eastern Washington District Michael
2:46:46Anderson was a proud product of our
2:46:48community and and Ron dittamore
2:46:50certainly is too and uh so it touched
2:46:53our community very deeply but in that
2:46:56respect we're respectful of
2:46:58all that they have done and and in the
2:47:01case of the NASA team will continue to
2:47:02do
2:47:03this was a science driven crew
2:47:07they spent 16 days in space and and
2:47:12we're 16 minutes from landing and in the
2:47:15process
2:47:16uh with the space uh have research
2:47:20double module we're doing tremendous
2:47:23numbers of experiments as I understand
2:47:25it
2:47:26and with the loss of of the Columbia the
2:47:30question
2:47:31comes what data might we have been able
2:47:34to
2:47:35collect with respect to their 16 days of
2:47:38scientific research efforts
2:47:40and um maybe that's my question
2:47:43basically is what were we able to retain
2:47:46and preserve with respect to their
2:47:48scientific research Legacy yes sir no
2:47:52question it was an extraordinary uh
2:47:54mission that was intensively science
2:47:57focused you've characterized exactly
2:47:59right over 16 days a lot of the data and
2:48:02returns from May those experiments were
2:48:05relayed back and so the scientific
2:48:07Community has the benefit of that
2:48:09information but to be sure the physical
2:48:13laboratory as well as a physical
2:48:15experimentation that was aboard 107 is
2:48:19lost for Alternatives no question there
2:48:21but let me provide for you for the
2:48:24record a rundown of the kind of data and
2:48:27information we have gotten back
2:48:28categorized by the kind of areas but it
2:48:30was a phenomenal Trove of uh of
2:48:33information that I think will yet prove
2:48:35to be very enlightening information as
2:48:38research continues on a range of
2:48:41biomedical as well as physical sciences
2:48:43research and material research
2:48:45activities in the future
2:48:47let me ask you if there is any support
2:48:50that NASA will offer to the principal
2:48:52investigators who lost scientific
2:48:55capability as well if you've been able
2:48:58to assess that yet or make any judgments
2:49:00about the principal investigators and
2:49:03and what losses that might have been
2:49:04sustained as the Columbia was lost yes
2:49:06sir I mean if there are a number of
2:49:08folks who had based a lot of the
2:49:11experimentation their entire
2:49:12dissertations were riding on this so
2:49:14years of research activity
2:49:17uh has really been set back dramatically
2:49:20as a result of that that's
2:49:21inconsequential Low by comparison to the
2:49:23loss of lives to be sure but it is
2:49:25something we need to be uh extremely
2:49:28mindful of there was to have been a a
2:49:30get-together this past week I think with
2:49:32the the biological and physical research
2:49:35components of our agency with all the
2:49:38principal investigators that had a stake
2:49:40if you will in the 107 experiment and
2:49:43research regime we are certainly intent
2:49:46on on trying to reconvene that session
2:49:48to find out what may be remedial uh for
2:49:52their efforts as we work through this in
2:49:53terms of the kind of information we
2:49:54might look to in future flights but we
2:49:56will work that I assure you that's
2:49:58something as prominent on our minds as
2:50:00well is your commitment lessened or
2:50:02diminished at all to scientific research
2:50:04and the value of station and the the
2:50:07efforts that were undertaken by this
2:50:09crew not one iota as a matter of fact
2:50:11the families of the 107 crew uh most
2:50:16stoic courageous people you would ever
2:50:18want to meet within two hours of this
2:50:20activity we're already saying you know
2:50:23you cannot give up on this this set of
2:50:25objectives they dedicated their lives to
2:50:28this
2:50:28that's what they were committed to doing
2:50:30you cannot move away from it it was a it
2:50:33had been an inspirational group and that
2:50:35in and of itself has been sufficient
2:50:37cause in my mind to not step back from
2:50:39our commitments in this regard one inch
2:50:42I appreciate it Congressman thank you
2:50:43thank you some of the members expired
2:50:45and if I could ask the people operating
2:50:46the door if you could have keep that
2:50:48door closed as much as possible as some
2:50:51beautiful singing going on outside but
2:50:53we don't don't need it in the room now I
2:50:55have the only astronaut that's serving
2:50:58currently in the United States Senate
2:50:59Senator Nelson from Florida thank you Mr
2:51:02chairman Mr O'Keefe uh prior to you
2:51:06arriving at NASA
2:51:10the space shuttle budget
2:51:12was whacked
2:51:14by some 1.4 billion dollars
2:51:19uh basically part of that over a nine
2:51:23year period this is
2:51:26uh and and by the way it's not the
2:51:28easiest to find this out because prior
2:51:31to your arrival back in the early 90s
2:51:34everything was lumped in together into a
2:51:38human space flight account
2:51:40the space shuttle uh the the kinds of
2:51:43new technologies plus the station but
2:51:46when you break it out
2:51:48what you find is that the Congress
2:51:50whacked part of it about 600 million out
2:51:55of the space shuttle thank you and uh
2:51:59then NASA itself
2:52:01whacked another 750.
2:52:05uh putting those two together
2:52:09uh
2:52:11you can see the years and this is prior
2:52:14to you arriving in O2 that year
2:52:17the Congress had added some 45 million
2:52:22and and NASA had whacked
2:52:2470 million
2:52:26to the Space Shuttle
2:52:28so
2:52:30this will be an ongoing dialogue that we
2:52:33will have but the question is
2:52:36what is your opinion prior to your
2:52:40arrival as you look back what had
2:52:42happened over that
2:52:44nine-year period
2:52:48sometimes the Congress would take the
2:52:50money out or just reduce it sometimes
2:52:53NASA would basically reprogram the money
2:52:56and take it out of the space shuttle and
2:52:59put it elsewhere
2:53:02does that compromise safety
2:53:05well sir I I I don't know the audit
2:53:08Trail uh clearly as well as as you've
2:53:11obviously researched this but this this
2:53:14uh particular I think matches with what
2:53:17you've projected here uh which is the
2:53:19funding history and the the convergence
2:53:23of two events and again I've got to
2:53:24really look at this in much greater
2:53:25detail uh to see the individual year
2:53:28changes that have occurred and so forth
2:53:30but the trends seem to can connote two
2:53:33things first one is that at the same
2:53:35time that efficiencies were being
2:53:37yielded in different ways of going about
2:53:39business
2:53:41that are more risk management and more
2:53:43what I would call Quality Assurance
2:53:45related approaches that raises and
2:53:48improves the the risk management
2:53:50probabilities
2:53:52at the same time also yielded some cost
2:53:55reductions along the way by not having
2:53:57an intensive group of individuals
2:53:59involved in the activity and so all the
2:54:01indicators over the same span of time
2:54:04seem to suggest but again we've got to
2:54:06go back and really look at this very
2:54:08very carefully would seem to suggest
2:54:10that there were improvements in
2:54:12incidents but prior to launch incidents
2:54:15on orbit all of the trend lines that we
2:54:17use to measure the efficiency and
2:54:20performance of the space flight
2:54:21operations program seemed to be moving
2:54:24in that kind of a trend line that said
2:54:26we're going to be guided by what the
2:54:28game and board looks at as systemic
2:54:30causes if this appears to have been a
2:54:32contributing factor we will be right
2:54:34back here looking at what those fixes
2:54:36need to be to work on and we will carry
2:54:37on a continuing Dialogue on this I can
2:54:40tell you there are people at Nasa and in
2:54:42the astronaut office that feel like that
2:54:45safety has been compromised over the
2:54:48last 10 years as a result of the Space
2:54:51Shuttle budget being rated
2:54:53and that's something that we've got to
2:54:55be concerned about one other item we're
2:54:58happy to hear those comments and any
2:55:00other views from anybody inside or
2:55:02external to the agency to come to ground
2:55:03truth and find the answers to what
2:55:05happened in this case absolutely senator
2:55:08uh might you comment on the fact that if
2:55:12that's the time of the senator has
2:55:14expired and we're having to stay on very
2:55:16very tight time frames chair recognize
2:55:18Mr weiner thank you welcome uh I I fear
2:55:22in your statement you have articulated a
2:55:25I guess a straw man that some of my
2:55:28colleagues in their questions have
2:55:30knocked down and when you said that we
2:55:32ought not turn our backs on exploration
2:55:34and that the research that was done on
2:55:36the shuttle was valuable in cancer
2:55:38treatment crop yield and fire
2:55:39suppression and dust storms but it is a
2:55:43fact that all of that research could
2:55:46have
2:55:47should have and would have been done on
2:55:50the space station had it been completed
2:55:53and in fact the shuttle has more often
2:55:55than not
2:55:56not been a research vehicle but a
2:55:59delivery vehicle supporting other
2:56:01platforms for science whether it be
2:56:03satellites or telescopes or the space
2:56:07station
2:56:08one of the many things that made the
2:56:10Columbia Mission noteworthy was the fact
2:56:12that it was a pure science mission
2:56:14uh apparently only 11 of the last 46
2:56:18shuttles have been able to say that it
2:56:20got to be so frustrating that in the
2:56:22106th Congress there was actually
2:56:24language put into the appropriation bill
2:56:26that this shuttle should contain more
2:56:29research
2:56:30you know shuttle astronauts I I fear to
2:56:33say have become more often than not very
2:56:37high skilled
2:56:38often brilliant
2:56:40in undeniably courageous
2:56:43cargo carriers
2:56:45and to demonstrate this point I don't
2:56:47have a Graphic but you do and I'd ask
2:56:49you to put up number 20.
2:56:54under something marked safety indicators
2:56:57is a chart that said launches more than
2:57:00ever cargo capacity up as much as one
2:57:02hundred percent
2:57:03cargo capacity being an indicator of
2:57:06safety leads me to the indiscapable
2:57:08conclusion that having more cargo means
2:57:12fewer flights means safer human beings
2:57:15this should not be how we measure
2:57:17whether someone is safe or not because
2:57:20frankly as we learned within I guess 48
2:57:23hours after this horrible accident an
2:57:26unmanned vehicle went up and brought
2:57:28cargo to the space station
2:57:31and also on chart number 18
2:57:34the same chart that has the reduction of
2:57:37in-flight anomalies monthly mishap
2:57:39frequencies technical scrubs brags about
2:57:42the increase in lift capacity to the
2:57:44Space Shuttle it seems that we're mixing
2:57:47the the need to keep people safe which
2:57:50is something that I think you have
2:57:51articulated several times here today
2:57:53with this ever-growing notion that the
2:57:56space shuttle is the only way we should
2:57:58develop or the only way the only means
2:58:01we should use to carry cargo we want
2:58:04science to be done in Space over and
2:58:06over again we in Congress have been
2:58:08asked the question because our colleague
2:58:09put it to us do you want to continue the
2:58:11space station funding we all say yes I
2:58:13say yes but we have to be careful not to
2:58:16confuse what the shuttle has been as a
2:58:19science Mission it has been a UPS truck
2:58:22for space shuttle supplies and I'm not
2:58:25sure that if you believe that increase
2:58:27in cargo is a way to make people safer
2:58:30than having a manned Cargo Carrier is
2:58:33the right way to go at all and if you
2:58:34just address that particularly chart
2:58:35number 20 if you could sure thank you
2:58:38sir Cargo in the term you've used here
2:58:41means assembly and science both okay and
2:58:45in the last four years to be sure many
2:58:48of the Space Shuttle flights and I think
2:58:49you point out the history precisely
2:58:50right that we have dedicated the use of
2:58:53shuttle for the purpose of bringing up
2:58:55large sections of the International
2:58:57Space Station for on-orbit assembly this
2:59:00is an engineering Marvel we're building
2:59:01in space now there's no other way to do
2:59:05this there's no way to launch the
2:59:07completed International Space Station in
2:59:08one Fell Swoop or one piece so each of
2:59:11it's been assembled on orbit and by no
2:59:13means of these UPS truck now the the
2:59:15question if you if you'll just
2:59:17understand the question is not that it
2:59:18is if you can bring food if you can
2:59:21bring clothing
2:59:23I'm sorry I didn't get I didn't get to
2:59:25the answer fast enough I apologize sorry
2:59:27I'm the progress vehicle that went up
2:59:29the uh the Sunday after the accident did
2:59:33in fact contain groceries Logistics
2:59:36supplies those kinds of things that's
2:59:37not typically what we put a bar aboard
2:59:39shuttle there are some of those things
2:59:41that are there but mostly those are
2:59:42carried by those unmanned autonomous
2:59:45cape abilities that are brought in to
2:59:47sustain the typical consumable
2:59:49requirements others are put a board
2:59:52shuttle too like water and a few other
2:59:53things but typically what it is is the
2:59:55cargo section includes the components
2:59:58the modules of the International Space
3:00:00Station that couldn't get there any
3:00:01other way or the science that as we see
3:00:04in this particular case of the 107 as
3:00:06well as on every one of the shuttle
3:00:08flights the science experimentation
3:00:10going up Mass to the International Space
3:00:12Station to bring those scientific
3:00:14experiments to there this there's no
3:00:16other way to do that and there are no
3:00:19way to put them aboard autonomous
3:00:21unmanned vehicles at this juncture that
3:00:24would do anything other than provide
3:00:25basic Logistics requirements so I I get
3:00:28your point you're exactly right we're
3:00:30trying to uh to maximize the yield of
3:00:33what can be as we call it up Mass to the
3:00:35International Space Station or in any
3:00:37other orbit pattern but at the same time
3:00:39also minimize the risk to the
3:00:41individuals so that really the human
3:00:43involvement in that is
3:00:47has expired thank you very much now I
3:00:50have the senator from the host State for
3:00:52the Johnson Space Station state of Texas
3:00:53Senator Hutchison thank you well thank
3:00:55you
3:00:57say uh Mr O'Keefe I I know how
3:01:01devastated you are I've never seen a
3:01:03sadder face than yours in the last few
3:01:05weeks and all the pictures and I think
3:01:08that you have handled the immediate
3:01:09aftermath very well and I appreciate
3:01:12that I also want to say I appreciate Mr
3:01:16rohrbacher's mention of the Texas
3:01:19residents who never expected anything
3:01:23like this but have been so supportive of
3:01:26NASA throughout East Texas looking for
3:01:29the debris and consider themselves sort
3:01:32of deputies in the investigation and I'm
3:01:35very proud of of my home state and
3:01:38especially the NASA people and the NASA
3:01:42family I grew up in the area I have
3:01:45known the NASA family since the
3:01:47announcement that NASA would come to
3:01:50Johnson and have known the close-knit
3:01:54nature of that community and I
3:01:58appreciate all of them as well
3:02:01I want to talk about some of the
3:02:03experiments that have been successful
3:02:06and have made a difference in our lives
3:02:09really from the National Science
3:02:12biomedical research institute which is
3:02:14not the old past successes of of space
3:02:18research but the newer ones they have
3:02:21developed portable infrared sensors to
3:02:24determine Blood and Tissue chemistry
3:02:26non-invasively which could help us in
3:02:30intensive care units and ambulances be
3:02:32able to test people quickly and
3:02:34determine hemorrhaging or other maladies
3:02:37developed a biosensor for microbes and
3:02:40toxins that has an application in the
3:02:42bioterrorism field for early detection
3:02:45and treatment could be used by military
3:02:47searching caves in Afghanistan or by
3:02:49weapons inspectors helped further
3:02:52development of a focused ultrasound
3:02:55system for Hemorrhage control and for
3:02:58destroying unwanted tissues or tumors
3:03:00that could one day allow bloodless
3:03:03surgery
3:03:04right there on the Columbia they dealt
3:03:09dealing with combustion they created the
3:03:12weakest flame ever seen in a laboratory
3:03:14environment about 1 200th that of a
3:03:17match which would be significant since
3:03:20soot contributes to sixty thousand
3:03:23premature deaths each year in the United
3:03:25States my question is this we do have a
3:03:29future in medical research your own
3:03:32board of scientists came back to you and
3:03:36said that is a future for manned space
3:03:39research the question is if the space
3:03:42shuttle is grounded for a year or six
3:03:45months what would be the impact on
3:03:47Research or do you foresee something
3:03:49even further down the road for the use
3:03:53of the shuttle and secondly if
3:03:57the space station is not serviced by the
3:03:59shuttle regularly for a long period of
3:04:02time
3:04:03what would the the capability be to
3:04:07continue the use of those microgravity
3:04:09conditions or do any of our
3:04:11International Partners have a vehicle
3:04:13capable of servicing including assembly
3:04:16the station
3:04:18thank you Senator uh if I could just on
3:04:20the front associate myself with your
3:04:22comments about the folks from East Texas
3:04:24unbelievable support
3:04:26and folks like CG Macklin who's the city
3:04:29manager of Lufkin Texas uh Captain Paul
3:04:31Davis from the Department of Public
3:04:33Safety down there unbelievable people
3:04:35who have stepped up in a way that is
3:04:37just truly heroic and we are grateful to
3:04:40them they've never been associated with
3:04:42the NASA family and yet here they are
3:04:44contributing in a way that really is
3:04:45remarkable we are eternally grateful to
3:04:47them for their uh assistance as we've
3:04:50moved through this very difficult time
3:04:51in working through the challenges there
3:04:54the impact on station to be sure is uh
3:04:57is is is a real difficult circumstance
3:05:00given the fact that the next flight that
3:05:04was due in March would have been a crew
3:05:06rotation for Expedition six to be
3:05:08replaced by Expedition seven uh that to
3:05:12the extent that we are able to get a
3:05:14answers to the current challenge that
3:05:17are underway that the investigative
3:05:18board is looking to
3:05:19and if we can get back to flight and
3:05:21resume say flight operations there
3:05:24should be no diminution of that support
3:05:26to station
3:05:27the extent that that doesn't happen and
3:05:28the best scenario is not realized we do
3:05:31have the capability on the soyuz flights
3:05:33which is the the twice a year rotation
3:05:36of the emergency egress capsule uh three
3:05:40cosmonauts were due to be sent up
3:05:42cosmonauts and astronauts were due to go
3:05:43up in April we're looking at what that
3:05:46crew configuration is kind of Consulting
3:05:48with our International Space Station
3:05:49Partners to determine the best way to
3:05:52configure the crew to use it potentially
3:05:55as a rotation capability for the folks
3:05:58that are aboard International Space
3:05:59Station now Ken Bauer socks Don Pettit
3:06:01and Nikolai bodarin potentially have the
3:06:04opportunity to come back aboard that
3:06:06particular soyuz return vehicle and send
3:06:09a replacement crew up we're looking at
3:06:11what those options may call for in terms
3:06:13of long-term sustainment of the
3:06:16International Space Station for science
3:06:17there's no question between now and June
3:06:20there is an ample Trove of science
3:06:22aboard uh the station right now that Ken
3:06:26Bowersox assures me and more important
3:06:29Don Pettit who is the science Officer
3:06:30says has got him occupied every single
3:06:33day and won't be a limiting factor
3:06:36between now and the time the summer
3:06:38rolls around beyond that there's no
3:06:40question it would end up likely being a
3:06:42sustaining capability because in pursuit
3:06:44of the earlier commentary we just had a
3:06:47conversation there is a the up mass or
3:06:50the capability to lift the science
3:06:52experimentation in the mid deck lockers
3:06:54and so forth that are aboard the shuttle
3:06:56typically are what bring the scientific
3:06:58experimentation return or rotation for
3:07:01the International Space Station to that
3:07:03laboratory condition and that would not
3:07:06be feasible to do you can't get all that
3:07:08aboard a resupply vehicle like progress
3:07:12is which is one man and for Logistics
3:07:14and basic consumables for everything you
3:07:17take out of it it's that much less
3:07:18sustaining capability we have for the
3:07:20human beings aboard and the humans are
3:07:22going to be the primary focus of our
3:07:24intentions so therefore we would see a
3:07:26limitation and a diminution of the
3:07:28Science Focus that would be aboard but
3:07:30for right now it is positively stationed
3:07:32today as it was yesterday and will
3:07:34continue through the balance of this
3:07:36time is the most capable laboratory
3:07:39condition we have that we are maximizing
3:07:41the science and that sustains for
3:07:43several months to come we'll have to
3:07:45make adjustments beyond that if this
3:07:47goes beyond that period manager's time
3:07:48is expired thank you Senator appreciate
3:07:50it very much
3:07:52extra Etheridge
3:07:54so keep thank you for being here and let
3:07:57me also associate myself with expressing
3:07:59condolences to the families and others
3:08:01and
3:08:02and also with the concerns that many of
3:08:04my colleagues have expressed today to
3:08:06make sure the study is independent
3:08:10I think that needs to be done for the
3:08:11accomplishments of this Congress and for
3:08:13the American people for the future of
3:08:15the program which I strongly support and
3:08:17think it's important to continue
3:08:19uh
3:08:20and let me say the people of North
3:08:23Carolina share with you greatly because
3:08:25we will celebrate the 100th anniversary
3:08:27of flight this year in two of the four
3:08:29celebrations in this country so we have
3:08:31a deep commitment to space and to fly
3:08:36um I was in school on Monday right after
3:08:38the Saturday uh terrible disaster
3:08:42children were concerned obviously as
3:08:44they always are you mentioned earlier
3:08:46someone did and I think it's appropriate
3:08:48to cover here because this is a great
3:08:50teaching tool not disasters but space
3:08:52flight
3:08:54in the 1960s President Kennedy said
3:08:57we're going to put a man on the moon
3:08:59before the end of this decade we didn't
3:09:01know we could do it we didn't know how
3:09:03to do it but it spawned the growth of
3:09:05scientists and Engineers that you talked
3:09:08about were getting ready to age out
3:09:09don't you think it's about time we had
3:09:11another grand plan and decide we're
3:09:14going to put a man on Mars
3:09:16or some great plant that may be above
3:09:18your pay grade
3:09:19but someone needs to say it so we get
3:09:22another generation of excited young
3:09:25people to decide they want to get
3:09:27involved I know the scientists we have
3:09:30in NASA which is a very small Elite
3:09:32capable group are there because they
3:09:34were excited but we need a bigger core
3:09:37very quickly because I have one more
3:09:39question I want to get to you
3:09:42beyond that and I hope you'll speak to
3:09:45that
3:09:46on March of this year or last year the
3:09:49independent Aerospace advisory safety
3:09:52panel reported to you that simply stated
3:09:55the panel believed that
3:09:56the repeated postponement of safety
3:09:59upgrades the delay in uh restoring agent
3:10:02infrastructure and the failure to look
3:10:03far enough ahead to anticipate and
3:10:06correct shortfalls and critical skills
3:10:08and logistical availability will
3:10:10inevitably
3:10:11increase the risk of operating in the
3:10:13space shuttle
3:10:15however since then I understand that
3:10:18NASA has canceled planned upgrade
3:10:20projects shifted funding for upgraded
3:10:22further out in time
3:10:24and it indicated that it needed to do
3:10:26more studies
3:10:28of what the upgrade should be and how
3:10:30they would be undertaken can you tell us
3:10:33if that's true and if so why and how
3:10:36that will help improve safety yes sir to
3:10:39your first question on big goals you bet
3:10:42the approach that the the president I
3:10:45think has advanced as part of
3:10:47our plan that is is part of the
3:10:50Strategic plan and all the objectives
3:10:51they're in is to develop those enabling
3:10:54technologies that would then permit the
3:10:57establishment of those big goals to be
3:10:59attainable
3:11:01in the two major limitations that I
3:11:03think we have got to beat down and be
3:11:05very very thorough in our efforts to
3:11:08explore the technology opportunities to
3:11:10conquer is the ability to get anywhere
3:11:13in a period of time and speed that would
3:11:15inform the research agenda
3:11:18and also assure that humans when they go
3:11:20can survive the experience for the full
3:11:23duration of that flight as it stands
3:11:25right now based on our current
3:11:26technology just to get to the edges of
3:11:29this solar system would take us 15 years
3:11:31that's an unacceptable period of time it
3:11:35would take and assuming that any of the
3:11:37scientists the principal investigators
3:11:39the research Focus are still interested
3:11:41by the time someone would arrive there
3:11:43is our is on one of our biggest problems
3:11:46because things change an awful lot in
3:11:48the span of a decade and a half so our
3:11:51first objective which you see dominantly
3:11:53in last year's budget in this year's
3:11:55budget is how to beat and how to conquer
3:11:56the in-space propulsion power generation
3:11:59requirements we had the second dimension
3:12:01of that is to look very carefully at
3:12:04how we can assure that humans survive
3:12:07the experience and again the degradation
3:12:09we see of this of the five Expedition
3:12:12Crews who have been aboard International
3:12:14Space Station for sustained periods of
3:12:16four to six months or longer
3:12:19is typically a physiological challenge
3:12:21that we've got to figure out how to
3:12:23conquer that because that's the amount
3:12:25of time it would take to round trip to
3:12:27anywhere that seems to be of curiosity
3:12:29that would be informed by research and
3:12:32scientific objectives and we've got to
3:12:33be sure that the folks can survive that
3:12:35experience so that and the radiation
3:12:37affects all those things an intensive
3:12:39amount of effort that you see in the the
3:12:41budget proposal before you is
3:12:43concentrated on trying to conquer those
3:12:45kinds of limitations and understand what
3:12:47it would take to assure a safe
3:12:49round-trip activity in that regard as it
3:12:52pertains to the second point we raised
3:12:54of of upgrades what we have proposed in
3:12:57the the budget amendment that came
3:12:59forward last November 13th of 2002 was a
3:13:03direct consequence of
3:13:06recommendations from both the general
3:13:08Accounting Office the safety advisory
3:13:10panel all the different external groups
3:13:13that we have had reviewing what we do
3:13:15have suggested that the longer term
3:13:18shuttle requirements to the extent we
3:13:20want to sustain that capability required
3:13:22that we look at modernizing and
3:13:25upgrading those capabilities each and
3:13:27every time as we do in the Orbiter major
3:13:29modification program what's in the the
3:13:31proposal for fiscal Euro 3 that the
3:13:33Congress is still deliberating on now
3:13:35and for the o4 program that the
3:13:37president just submitted a week ago is a
3:13:40very specific plan that would would
3:13:42provide for those increases necessary to
3:13:46sustain this capability through the next
3:13:48decade primarily for lift capacity of of
3:13:52those requirements as well as crew
3:13:54transfer capabilities to and from
3:13:56International Space Station and
3:13:58elsewhere this is maneuverable as we can
3:13:59make it thank you sir appreciate it very
3:14:01much Mr Smith
3:14:04thank you Mr chairman I don't have any
3:14:05questions Beyond those that have already
3:14:07been asked but I do have a statement I'd
3:14:09like to make and then I'd welcome Mr
3:14:11O'Keefe's comments when I finish Mr
3:14:13chairman I have long supported our
3:14:15efforts to learn more about the universe
3:14:17around us in fact I've always thought
3:14:19that a great rallying crime would be one
3:14:22percent for space that is we should
3:14:24commit one percent of our national
3:14:26budget we're about double what we now
3:14:28spend on scientific discoveries beyond
3:14:31the bounds of Earth
3:14:32the Columbia disaster though has made me
3:14:35question not our financial commitment
3:14:37but the nature of our space initiatives
3:14:40perhaps we should re-evaluate some of
3:14:42our missions
3:14:44launching astronauts into an inherently
3:14:46dangerous environment is always risky
3:14:49such efforts should be made only when
3:14:51the results justify the sacrifices
3:14:54that may mean NASA undertakes fewer
3:14:57manned missions and more unmanned ones
3:15:00from what I read and hear astronauts on
3:15:02the space station spend most of their
3:15:03time on maintenance and conducting
3:15:05experiments that could be performed by
3:15:07mechanical means of course human
3:15:10judgment sometimes is indispensable so
3:15:13there always will be a need for manned
3:15:15missions but robotics should be employed
3:15:17more often they can achieve our
3:15:20scientific goals more cheaply and with
3:15:22less risk to astronauts lives in other
3:15:25words can we justify Decades of
3:15:28repetitious yet demonstrably lethal
3:15:30round-trip shuttle flights to a space
3:15:32station that has not met expectations
3:15:36it's tempting to aim farther at an
3:15:39inhabited outpost on Mars for example
3:15:42however that endeavor could be 100 times
3:15:44or maybe one thousand times more
3:15:46dangerous than a shuttle flight and
3:15:48through the video eyes of a Martian
3:15:50Rover we've seen what the planet already
3:15:52looks like up close
3:15:54nor are our prospects great for
3:15:56exploring our Cosmic neighborhood
3:15:58considering the distances involved our
3:16:01fastest spacecraft can travel 100 times
3:16:03faster than a bullet yet even at that
3:16:06incredible speed such Vehicles would
3:16:08take one hundred thousand years to reach
3:16:10the nearest Stars
3:16:13there is a way to reach across the
3:16:15expansive space Seize The public's
3:16:17imagination and learn more about
3:16:19ourselves and the cosmos and that is to
3:16:22search for signs of life elsewhere in
3:16:25the universe
3:16:26a new generation of telescopes launched
3:16:28into space would be able to identify
3:16:30life on worlds orbiting nearby Stars
3:16:33other types of telescopes could detect
3:16:36radio or light signals from distant
3:16:38civilizations
3:16:39discovering the probable existence of
3:16:41Life out there would cause more
3:16:44excitement than any news event in the
3:16:46history of humankind it would certainly
3:16:48be a show stopper and the possibility of
3:16:51extraterrestrial life a show starter for
3:16:54our next major Space Program
3:16:57searching for something more than
3:16:58microbes for planets like the Earth and
3:17:01for other sentient life forms could lift
3:17:03our faces again to the heavens with hope
3:17:06and expectation
3:17:08shuttle flights using new space planes
3:17:10would service these telescopes no doubt
3:17:12such operations will often require the
3:17:14good judgment and capable skills of
3:17:16astronauts
3:17:17and astronauts who have gone before such
3:17:20as those aboard the Columbia will have
3:17:22laid a foundation from which we can push
3:17:24off seeking to discern the secrets of
3:17:27the universe Mr O'Keefe I'd like you to
3:17:30respond to the idea if not my specifics
3:17:32then the general idea of reframing the
3:17:36mission that we have in mind and if you
3:17:39have other suggestions I'd be happy to
3:17:40hear them I mentioned one for seizing
3:17:42that Public's imagination and yet
3:17:44learning more about the universe and I'd
3:17:47be happy for you to respond to those
3:17:48suggestions yes sir well no I thank you
3:17:51for the for the very thoughtful
3:17:52commentary and also for I think of the
3:17:55same kind of issues we're wrestling with
3:17:57in terms of what our appropriate
3:17:58strategy should be
3:18:00in in so many ways again it's got to be
3:18:02it's not an either or proposition it's a
3:18:04capability in which you build on the
3:18:06robotic
3:18:08unmanned non-human intervention of
3:18:11capabilities that you can deploy and
3:18:13then utilize human requirements when
3:18:15necessary
3:18:17again the best example I've I've come
3:18:19across in my short one year tenure at
3:18:22Nasa is is the Hubble Space Telescope it
3:18:24is just a remarkable instrument today
3:18:26it's something that is rewriting the
3:18:28astronomy books folks are just marveling
3:18:30at the capacity and the imagery that's
3:18:33coming back from those flights from the
3:18:35uh from the information from the Hubble
3:18:37telescope is not only the new imagery
3:18:40that we're getting but it's also
3:18:41informing the archival data that was
3:18:43collected in the last few years that
3:18:46suddenly now makes more sense because of
3:18:48the the information we're getting today
3:18:49that now puts that in a different
3:18:51context and makes it more spectacular
3:18:53the reality is that fantastic instrument
3:18:57would never have worked have we not had
3:19:00the capacity to launch a space shuttle
3:19:02and send folks to the Hubble Space
3:19:06Telescope to make the adjustments to
3:19:08correct the problems which was again
3:19:10roundly considered to be space trash 10
3:19:13years ago this same instrument that was
3:19:15roundly you know dismissed is a mistake
3:19:18these things turned into a marvelous
3:19:19piece I just think we need more
3:19:20instruments just like that but a bigger
3:19:22program and a more expansion program I
3:19:24know my time is out maybe we can discuss
3:19:25this sure but I I've one of Haitian ad
3:19:28as well that what you see before you in
3:19:30the current configuration of
3:19:31International Space Station is the same
3:19:33kind of example this is a work in
3:19:35progress we are six flights away
3:19:38from still achieving what is a core
3:19:41configuration it had been planned to be
3:19:43resumed by this time next year is where
3:19:46we'd be in that core configuration to
3:19:48build the scientific Laboratories around
3:19:50it but at present we're still looking at
3:19:52an amazing laboratory condition that is
3:19:55in contrast to to your characterization
3:19:57Sir with all due respect they are
3:19:59spending a lot more time on the science
3:20:01on these ex and matter of fact the last
3:20:03two Expeditions Peggy Whitson just
3:20:05returned as the first science officer
3:20:07aboard as we've transitioned from this
3:20:09engineering phase to one that's more
3:20:11intensively focused on the science it
3:20:14does take a lot you know at least two
3:20:15folks to maintain it no question about
3:20:16it but it is as we are able to build the
3:20:19crew capacity and focus on the
3:20:21scientific objectives once we've reached
3:20:23a configuration that would permit that
3:20:26full use of a laboratory it's going to
3:20:28be I think the same result that we saw
3:20:32out of Hubble in the long term which is
3:20:34going to yield the kinds of
3:20:35breakthroughs that we never dared
3:20:37imagine
3:20:38as humans we are impatient we want to
3:20:41see it now and yet at the same time I
3:20:43think the persistence that we're trying
3:20:45to exert is to say in the perseverance
3:20:47is to make sure that we have that
3:20:49capability so that those kinds of
3:20:51Revelations like what we see today
3:20:53coming from Hebel and our
3:20:55stick-to-itiveness over this past decade
3:20:56yields the return we'd hope for and it
3:20:59is today and it will tomorrow if we keep
3:21:01this up thank you very much Mr O'Keefe
3:21:03thank you sir I appreciate it you're a
3:21:04freak of witness before our panel the
3:21:06house members are particularly skilled
3:21:09at time management because we operate
3:21:10under different rules and so they've
3:21:13developed the knack for asking using all
3:21:16their time to ask the question and then
3:21:18obviously we'll give you the opportunity
3:21:20to respond because no question should go
3:21:23unresponded to but we're going to stick
3:21:25as much as possible to the time
3:21:27limitations in the interest of all
3:21:29concerns chair now recognizes another
3:21:31skilled practitioner of the art of
3:21:33questioning Miss Jackson Lee
3:21:39chairman what an introduction let me
3:21:44chairman and the
3:21:47chairman of the senate committee
3:21:49for this opportunity and to Mr O'Keefe
3:21:53you have shown the proudness and
3:21:55wisdom that we have seen over the last
3:21:58two weeks compounded of course or
3:22:00matched with your compassion
3:22:03uh and love for the NASA family my
3:22:05sympathy to the extended family and
3:22:08pacifically to the families of the
3:22:11astronaut Columbia seven a local
3:22:14newspaper called them astronauts the
3:22:17heroes next door
3:22:19and I do want to announce to you and
3:22:21we're very pleased
3:22:22that now almost 80 members of Congress
3:22:25in H.R five
3:22:2725 have joined us to give them the
3:22:31Congressional gold medal
3:22:33which is the higher civilian honor and
3:22:35we look forward to NASA supporting us we
3:22:37believe that we can move this
3:22:39legislation quickly we're going to call
3:22:41on our Senate colleagues to join us in
3:22:42that and we're very grateful to
3:22:44Republicans and Democrats who've signed
3:22:46on to this legislation very quickly
3:22:49I think the important message that I'd
3:22:50like to convey in my brief time is that
3:22:54the shuttle will fly again
3:22:56and that the challenge should be for
3:22:58lack of a better term that it flies
3:23:00sooner
3:23:02rather than later sooner than two and a
3:23:04half years sooner than three years
3:23:06you've heard this before so let me focus
3:23:08on it again I think it is extremely
3:23:10important that we have
3:23:11the Admirals committee expanded and I
3:23:14think you need to consider the likes of
3:23:16a Nobel Laureate an academic
3:23:19some industry Engineers should be
3:23:21considered some Advocates of Aviation
3:23:24and I believe after 9 11 depending on
3:23:27their desires family members or
3:23:29Representatives should be considered to
3:23:31be part of this committee because our
3:23:34job is to instill confidence in the
3:23:36employees in the families in the
3:23:39astronauts not necessarily in that order
3:23:40in the American people in this Congress
3:23:42and I'm reminded of the Rogers
3:23:44commission that had a subsection the
3:23:47silent
3:23:48safety program and I assume if I was to
3:23:50read that it would again comment on the
3:23:52issue of safety let me bring these
3:23:54points to you and tell you what I'd like
3:23:56to hear whether it be in writing or
3:23:58you'll be able to say it now I want
3:24:01actual dots a road map to lead me from
3:24:03or to the conclusion whether it be a
3:24:07conclusion that is not popular that
3:24:09budgeting did not interfere with the
3:24:11safety of this program I want an actual
3:24:13we don't want to be presumptive we don't
3:24:14want to speculate and we don't want to
3:24:16be afraid of saying mistakes
3:24:18I want to be able to understand about
3:24:20the Frozen foam that fell
3:24:23under the underbelly and then hit the
3:24:26left leaning wing
3:24:27and how we can speculate that that
3:24:29didn't count when we had a report in
3:24:311994 from Stanford and Carnegie that
3:24:33suggested 15 of the tiles could count
3:24:36for 85 percent of the damage
3:24:38and I understand an engineer in 1997
3:24:40most recently said that he thought
3:24:43debris falling might have an impact and
3:24:45as we all know
3:24:47this goes on its belly and therefore
3:24:50it's possible for debris to have hit
3:24:52while it was in route or while it was in
3:24:54space
3:24:55so I'd like the direct lines to that
3:24:57I'd like to also say that an Orbiter
3:25:01shuttle is excellent but I'm very
3:25:03interested in payload I think it is a
3:25:05valuable part of what we do and I would
3:25:07not want to just have a vehicle that
3:25:09transported human beings because I want
3:25:11research to be able to be done because
3:25:13we're saving lives and if you can
3:25:14comment on that idea because I
3:25:17understand that we are pushing forward
3:25:19the research on the Orbiter I am
3:25:21certainly excited about that but I want
3:25:22to make sure we can carry a good payload
3:25:24so that that research that vital
3:25:25research can be done
3:25:28if you can comment on the fact of the
3:25:30ice sickle that fell I call it that and
3:25:34why we could suggest or suggest that
3:25:36that was not a problem
3:25:39um and that you will instruct or however
3:25:41the instructions are to this commission
3:25:43this committee head by Avril Gaiman that
3:25:46he will leave no stone unturned and that
3:25:47we'll be able to track or follow his
3:25:49tracks budget
3:25:52cuts that did occur
3:25:54did not have an impact an aging vehicle
3:25:57did or did not have an impact 30 some
3:25:59years old gentle lady's time has expired
3:26:02proving the point and I think
3:26:04distinguished chairman I had come to an
3:26:06end of my sentence thank you very much
3:26:08the um Mr administrator good comment
3:26:11briefly I appreciate by all means thank
3:26:13you very much Mr chairman the chairman
3:26:16thank you um
3:26:18very probing questions no question all
3:26:21of which I think we should find the
3:26:22answers to we must find the answers to
3:26:25to understand exactly what happened uh
3:26:27to the Columbia and the investigative
3:26:30board when they come to conclusion on
3:26:32each of those points we positively be
3:26:34guided by it let me offer the following
3:26:35observations
3:26:36everything we've seen
3:26:38on the the budget and the resource
3:26:41profile for shuttle would suggest that
3:26:44concurrent with improvements in
3:26:46efficiencies that were also improvements
3:26:49in performance and to the extent that
3:26:52doesn't bear out to the extent there are
3:26:54systemic problems that the investigative
3:26:56board concludes led to this tragedy
3:26:59that's the kind of things we'll have to
3:27:00fix too and their Charter is Broad
3:27:02enough to cover that range of issues
3:27:04we're not just looking for a technical
3:27:06finding of what happened on this one
3:27:08flight anything else they want to
3:27:10observe they are free to do so and will
3:27:12be guided by their view the operational
3:27:14problems
3:27:15um as again I really want to avoid any
3:27:18favorite theory of what it is that could
3:27:21have contributed to this we have closed
3:27:22off no branch in this fault tree
3:27:26analysis if you will we want to make
3:27:28sure that everything is analyzed every
3:27:30possible thing it could have contributed
3:27:32to this to include the foam pulling off
3:27:34the external tank whatever all of those
3:27:37are are theories that again are current
3:27:40there there are certainly plausible and
3:27:43we're going going to be guided by the
3:27:44investigative board's conclusions of
3:27:46what their ultimate contribution was in
3:27:49these kind of cases so I really want to
3:27:51be sure we're not shutting off any of
3:27:53those Avenues but at the same time not
3:27:55pursuing one we think is more likely or
3:27:58favorable or not in in my limited
3:28:01experience with dealing with with the
3:28:04crisis circumstances or management of
3:28:06situations where you're responding to
3:28:08incidents
3:28:10typically one of the variables that
3:28:11occurs not always but many many times
3:28:13the initial evidence proves to be not
3:28:16nearly as Illuminating as it was when it
3:28:19first came out and so rather than
3:28:21tracing or chasing what turns out to be
3:28:23a blind Ally and then therefore for
3:28:26closing and letting the trail go cold on
3:28:29all kinds of other options we've tried
3:28:31to maintain an even Keel approach of
3:28:34being sure that we not go out and favor
3:28:36one favored approach versus another and
3:28:39to let all the evidence let the facts
3:28:41speak for what ultimately occurred in
3:28:43this case so we're avoiding that and I
3:28:45too am looking forward to the assessment
3:28:47of the investigative board's conclusions
3:28:49about how that particular item whether
3:28:52it was the contributor or not and that's
3:28:55what I'll be guided by as we move along
3:28:56lastly your observation that you asked
3:28:58about the science content absolutely we
3:29:02have to really maximize that that's the
3:29:04the risk that we deal with each day
3:29:06those seven heroic folks who went aboard
3:29:09Columbia were making a contribution to
3:29:12the ultimately the science and research
3:29:14objectives we have to have a equally uh
3:29:19intensive and disciplined approach about
3:29:21what we would ask them to risk their
3:29:23lives for and be equally serious about
3:29:25it
3:29:26for every one of those cases in which we
3:29:28ask folks to venture off to do these
3:29:29things and so we've got to be as
3:29:31disciplined as they are in their
3:29:33training of assuring that the science
3:29:35and the research yield we think could
3:29:37come from this meets that same test and
3:29:40standard and that's what we're about
3:29:41that's what I think we're attempting to
3:29:43do in International Space Station we're
3:29:45trying to build that capacity to yield
3:29:47those kinds of breakthroughs that might
3:29:49not would never be possible were it not
3:29:51for that facility that can't be
3:29:53duplicated here on Earth so we continue
3:29:55in that Pursuit we are completely in in
3:29:57agreement on that really imperative to
3:30:00be that serious about it and I thank you
3:30:02for your observations thank you very
3:30:04much Mr administrator Mr Feeney
3:30:08thank you Mr chairman and for uh
3:30:10chairman McCain in the senate for their
3:30:12Hospitality today Mr O'Keefe it's uh
3:30:16it's great to talk to you I know it's
3:30:17been a very difficult weeks for you and
3:30:19your staff and I would wonder if you
3:30:22could comment on a couple thoughts that
3:30:24I had number one within about 15 minutes
3:30:27of the Columbia
3:30:29's failure to land on time at Kennedy
3:30:32Space Center there was a contingency
3:30:34plan put into place and I'd like to know
3:30:36what if any steps you took upon assuming
3:30:38the
3:30:39control of the administration at Nasa
3:30:43with respect to reviewing familiarizing
3:30:46yourself with the contingency plan and
3:30:48what you found
3:30:49and secondly I was struck by the portion
3:30:52of your testimony when you
3:30:55spoke I think he used the phrase the
3:30:57ethos of safety at Nasa and I think you
3:30:59included the contractors work for NASA
3:31:01as well not long ago you and I sat as we
3:31:04hoped for a liftoff we didn't get one
3:31:06that day but in the audience was a young
3:31:09man was introduced by the name of David
3:31:10Strait I wasn't familiar with his name I
3:31:14thought by the reception he got from the
3:31:16people there that day he must be a rock
3:31:18star or a TV star I don't watch much TV
3:31:21or listen to much music either
3:31:22but I wonder if you could comment on the
3:31:25fact that the people involved in this
3:31:28program are passionate about it
3:31:31what's your
3:31:33view of their professionalism is and
3:31:36what we can do as we go through this
3:31:38very difficult process of the
3:31:39investigation the fix of the problem and
3:31:42hopefully hopefully creating a new
3:31:43vision of space
3:31:45to enhance that of spirit Decor during
3:31:47some tough times
3:31:49thank you Congressman um
3:31:52the issue of the contingency plan no
3:31:54question this was something that
3:31:56occupied my uh interest from the first
3:31:59hour that I was privileged to be in the
3:32:02capacity as administrator at NASA
3:32:04on the first day I walked into the
3:32:06office I asked folks to please take off
3:32:08the shelf whatever it is whatever that
3:32:10plan is
3:32:11of how we would respond to a disaster
3:32:14like Challenger
3:32:16and I asked that that meeting occur
3:32:18within an hour after I requested it so
3:32:20that nobody wouldn't have to feel like
3:32:22they have to run off and make something
3:32:23up that they just pull off the shelf
3:32:24what was there
3:32:25and we sat down and reviewed that plan
3:32:27and it clearly is a of the origin
3:32:32from the Challenger circumstance no
3:32:35question and an awful lot of the
3:32:36contingency planning efforts that went
3:32:38into it and I reviewed it in great
3:32:39detail
3:32:40to assure myself that I would have some
3:32:42working familiarity with it
3:32:44then asked our senior leadership folks
3:32:46to then Benchmark it against the only
3:32:49other community I know of that is as
3:32:51equally obsessed with safety as NASA is
3:32:54which is the nuclear reactors Community
3:32:57the naval reactors Community the legacy
3:33:00of Hyman rickover and all the folks who
3:33:02have over 40 plus years have operated
3:33:05safely over 125 million miles they say
3:33:09of safe operations of nuclear reactors
3:33:12so we opposed upon Admiral skip Bowman
3:33:14who was the head of Naval reactors today
3:33:16who is uh rickover's successor several
3:33:18times removed now
3:33:20to Benchmark help us Benchmark relative
3:33:22to uh the the approach
3:33:26of what they use as their contingency
3:33:30planning efforts over the course of the
3:33:32next six months we were able to compare
3:33:35notes if you will upgrade our plan he
3:33:37upgraded his based on the way we do
3:33:39business too we both benefited by the
3:33:42exercise uh the contingency plan was
3:33:45updated and republished in September of
3:33:472002 we ran a simulation of it November
3:33:51securing the confidence we'd never have
3:33:53to use it
3:33:54but nonetheless it was organized that
3:33:57way and specifically all the folks who
3:33:59were to be on the independent
3:34:00investigation board named identified by
3:34:02position were notified so everybody
3:34:04understood the procedure all the folks
3:34:07internally were exercised on the
3:34:08activity and knew we were confident we'd
3:34:11never have to really worry about using
3:34:12something like this on the day it
3:34:14occurred
3:34:15at 9 29 Bill Reedy had it with him as
3:34:18did all the senior officials at Kennedy
3:34:20opened up the first page and we went to
3:34:22item one on that contingency plan and it
3:34:25was
3:34:26the saddest moment I can ever recall to
3:34:29be followed by the most tragic moment
3:34:32I've ever experienced in my life which
3:34:34was to face the families of these crew
3:34:36members and but to tell them and
3:34:38reassure them that we're working through
3:34:40this as diligently as we know how to
3:34:42find what caused this what are the
3:34:45answers how are we going to fix this and
3:34:47assure that we pursue the same dream
3:34:48that they're their spouses loved ones
3:34:51fathers and mothers wanted to see
3:34:54pursued and so this plan is as good as
3:34:56we know how to put it together it is of
3:34:58that Legacy it has been really worked as
3:35:01hard as we know how and the safety ethos
3:35:03if I get slide 23 real quick to be sure
3:35:06the example you cited the fellow you
3:35:09talked about David Strait noticed on the
3:35:12left hand side of this chart there's you
3:35:14can barely even see it there's a
3:35:16hairline fracture of no more than about
3:35:18an inch and a half
3:35:19that was enough to ground the entire
3:35:22Orbiter Fleet for four months until we
3:35:25knew what was the source of that problem
3:35:26how did it happen is it isn't supposed
3:35:28to have shown up in anything we stopped
3:35:30all flight operations made the repair
3:35:33area to it that you see on the right
3:35:34over the course of that time after
3:35:36they'd run many many simulations of this
3:35:39to figure out what the right answer was
3:35:41and yet
3:35:43there's a bead weld right above it that
3:35:45was there without any consequence since
3:35:47the day this Orbiter was first put
3:35:49together and this effect was made on all
3:35:52four of those shuttle flights so even
3:35:53something as minuscule as that the David
3:35:55Strait with 20 20 Vision uh noticed as
3:35:59he just went his through his routine
3:36:00business like they all do of inspecting
3:36:02the Orbiter every square inch of it
3:36:04after every flight notice that seemingly
3:36:07innocuous problem and that was enough to
3:36:09ground that Fleet for four months
3:36:11gentleman's time has expired uh Miss
3:36:14Lofgren thank you Mr chairman I'd like
3:36:17to thank you as well as Senator McCain
3:36:19for convening this hearing and over the
3:36:22next few months I think all of us will
3:36:24be asking tough questions related to the
3:36:27loss of the Columbia as well as the
3:36:30future of the space program but it's
3:36:32appropriate that first our country has
3:36:35paused to reflect on the heroism of the
3:36:37Seven astronauts who gave their lives so
3:36:40that the dreams of humans reaching for
3:36:43the Stars could live forever and my
3:36:45thoughts and prayers are with the
3:36:47families of those we lost as well as to
3:36:49the extended NASA family and I know from
3:36:53my own experience that part of our NASA
3:36:56family at home at NASA Ames is very much
3:36:58grieving with the rest of the country
3:37:00over this loss I also believe that this
3:37:04committee is going to focus on asking
3:37:07difficult questions that relate to how
3:37:09we're best able to resume our quest to
3:37:12explore space and that's really the best
3:37:15way to honor those who were lost to ask
3:37:18those tough questions and to find
3:37:21answers
3:37:23clearly we're not going to find the
3:37:25answer to the specific technical issues
3:37:27relative to the Columbia we've got
3:37:29technical people to do that but it is
3:37:32appropriate for us to examine our own
3:37:35actions and to question each other about
3:37:38the policies and whether those those
3:37:40policies had any impact on on the risk
3:37:43that was inherent in this flight clearly
3:37:47at least into the foreseeable future
3:37:50space flight will be risky and we know
3:37:54that the percentage of odds right now is
3:37:58although initially we thought that the
3:38:02use of these vehicles would have a risk
3:38:05of one in one hundred thousand it's down
3:38:07to now one in 57. if you just look at
3:38:10the records and so we need to I'm a
3:38:12Believer in human space travel but we
3:38:14need to make sure that we're doing our
3:38:16part to minimize the risks now I I was
3:38:20late for this hearing I wish to
3:38:21apologize it's been a big science day we
3:38:24spent all morning on stem cell research
3:38:26in the Judiciary Committee and I have
3:38:28hopes that science will do better in the
3:38:30science committee than science did in
3:38:32the Judiciary Committee today but one of
3:38:35the questions I have for you
3:38:36administrators
3:38:38um
3:38:40as we look at what we should do to make
3:38:43sure that the risks are minimized were
3:38:45there any safety upgrade proposals ever
3:38:49made to you either as administrator or
3:38:52in your prior life over at the OMB that
3:38:55you did not support and if so what were
3:38:58those recommendations and why did you
3:39:00reach the conclusion that you did
3:39:02not that I'm aware of but I'd certainly
3:39:04will review the history of both of my
3:39:08capacities in the course of this
3:39:10Administration and ascertain the dates
3:39:12of when there were any deferrals or
3:39:14anything else of uh any upgrades it
3:39:17would be categorized as exclusively
3:39:19focused on safety so to my knowledge we
3:39:22have not done so there is the only
3:39:24issues I'm aware of is a
3:39:28electric auxiliary power unit
3:39:31upgrade that had been planned that was
3:39:34determined to be technically deficient
3:39:36and wasn't no so in other words no
3:39:38amount of money we threw at it was going
3:39:40to yield its performance in the manner
3:39:43in which it would contribute to not only
3:39:45efficiency but also safety
3:39:47characterization that was deferred and
3:39:50we're we're now re-examining to figure
3:39:51out how we can we can uh pick that up or
3:39:54continue it in a future that would yield
3:39:56the performance requirements we know of
3:39:57but we will go back and I will submit
3:39:59for the record any other changes that
3:40:01were made during the course of uh well
3:40:03since Inauguration Day 2001 and if there
3:40:07are any changes that have occurred in
3:40:08that time we'll certainly report those
3:40:09so you'll go back and review the
3:40:13your
3:40:14obviously hindsight's 2020 we're all
3:40:16doing that in terms of our own
3:40:18activities what you recommended both at
3:40:20OMB and in your role as NASA
3:40:23administrator and I know Mike I'll do my
3:40:25best thank you very much and my time is
3:40:27up Mr chairman thank you very much chair
3:40:29recognizes the senator from Washington
3:40:31thank you Mr chairman and thank you Mr
3:40:33O'Keefe for your diligence today I've
3:40:36been to several meetings since I first
3:40:37checked in here this morning and I think
3:40:38you've had a total of a five minute
3:40:40break so we thank you for your diligence
3:40:43in answering these questions
3:40:45um I don't think any of my colleagues
3:40:47have asked specifically about the
3:40:50Lessons Learned From The Challenger
3:40:53inquiry and I don't know if uh in this
3:40:58current configuration of the Columbia
3:41:01inquiry you think that it that we have a
3:41:05sufficient independent scientist on on
3:41:08this review team
3:41:10yes Senator the um very specifically the
3:41:13contingency plan and the activation of
3:41:15an investigative board is a direct
3:41:17outgrowth and a direct education from
3:41:21the Challenger accident so what we put
3:41:24in motion on the day of the accident was
3:41:26something that was a lesson learned from
3:41:28Challenger it was part of the Rogers
3:41:30commission recommendations of how we
3:41:32would proceed in various cases and this
3:41:34is an outgrowth of one of their concerns
3:41:36which is how to get ahead of these cases
3:41:38as quickly as possible
3:41:40uh the investigative board was appointed
3:41:42the same day as the accident and so as a
3:41:45result that was a very clear result of
3:41:47the lesson learned that came from that
3:41:49so an awful lot of what we attempt to do
3:41:52here is to to build on that experience
3:41:54and assure that we have a result in this
3:41:57case that is driven by our our interest
3:42:01and absolute dedication to finding the
3:42:03answers to what caused the terrible
3:42:04tragedy find the the solutions to it the
3:42:07fixes and get about the business of
3:42:09getting back to safe flight to support
3:42:11the folks aboard International Space so
3:42:13who is that independent scientist then
3:42:15oh I'm sorry the independence there is
3:42:17uh spoke as recently as last night to
3:42:19Admiral Hal Gaiman who is the chairman
3:42:20of the current board who has five
3:42:23different folks he has in mind I'm told
3:42:25who are physicist scientists Etc that he
3:42:28is considering uh to propose to it for
3:42:31addition on the board I've advised him
3:42:33whoever he wants to put on that board
3:42:34that will expand his expertise that will
3:42:37improve the independence of the board
3:42:39help its objectivity we will do it
3:42:42without qualification and without
3:42:44hesitation well I I am struck reading
3:42:47last night and this morning the Feynman
3:42:49Minority Report to that report that I
3:42:52think finally got in as an appendix and
3:42:54which uh Mr Feynman was very critical of
3:42:57discrepancies between engineers and
3:42:59managers as the probability of failure
3:43:01so you had Engineers having studies and
3:43:03Analysis saying that maybe the risk is a
3:43:06lot higher than than what the in the
3:43:09high-level managers thought the criteria
3:43:12used for flight Readiness reviews often
3:43:14developed a gradual decreasing
3:43:17strictness if the shuttle had flown with
3:43:19it before chances are it worked before
3:43:21so let's just let's not think about the
3:43:23variations that might happen the Feynman
3:43:26report even said NASA might have
3:43:28exaggerated the reliability of product
3:43:31that there were variations in models
3:43:33that that NASA was more of a top-down
3:43:37system in testing the entire system
3:43:40instead of testing the individual
3:43:43properties and limitations of the
3:43:45material within the shuttle
3:43:49to the degree that I think the report
3:43:51was was quite critical of NASA in the
3:43:55sense of maybe even coming to Congress
3:43:57and Catering uh to us in the public
3:44:00relations expectations that that were
3:44:03there by the public instead of uh
3:44:06relying back on this basic engineering
3:44:08information so I guess my my concern is
3:44:10is that the panel as I see it now
3:44:13doesn't have that Feynman voice
3:44:15and I think what we really do want to do
3:44:18here is make sure that we are not
3:44:21engaged in a in in that PR battle but
3:44:24understanding how we really do build the
3:44:27NASA systems of the future with more
3:44:29reliability and predictability based on
3:44:31those materials and so I'd be very
3:44:33interested in in how those
3:44:35recommendations were actually
3:44:36implemented because I have a feeling we
3:44:39might find the same circumstances are
3:44:42true here we're going to find out that
3:44:43there is some material
3:44:46property limitations that were
3:44:48discovered in some report written by
3:44:50some engineer that somewhere along the
3:44:52way got translated into not as big a
3:44:54risk and thereby the disaster that we've
3:44:58all been dealing with so I appreciate
3:45:01your attention well thank you Senator I
3:45:02I uh that may be if the investigative
3:45:05board comes back and points to the
3:45:06systemic
3:45:08uh problems that we have we positively
3:45:11will take that as a firm recommendation
3:45:13and go fix it what I can advise though
3:45:15in my one year experience with no prior
3:45:18experience with NASA at all
3:45:19um this my first first year at it is and
3:45:22reading the Challenger the Rogers
3:45:24Commission report I was a senate
3:45:26Appropriations Committee staff member on
3:45:28the day Challenger blew up read the
3:45:30report thereafter and that's my only
3:45:33association with that I'm up until a
3:45:34year ago is what I see is a different
3:45:37agency than what existed 17 years ago in
3:45:41that sense one of the observations they
3:45:43made fireman's view I think was exactly
3:45:45right he pointed to the difficulty of
3:45:47that that chain of command and how it
3:45:49gets altered this whole process I've
3:45:52witnessed and I'm advised I'm the first
3:45:55administrator to have attended what is
3:45:56called a flight Readiness review two
3:45:58weeks before a launch it it resembles a
3:46:02room like this with everyone that you
3:46:05could possibly imagine associated with
3:46:07this activity all of which are empowered
3:46:10to raise their hand during the course of
3:46:12a full day sometimes two-day review of
3:46:15every single technical issue and if they
3:46:18disagree with the way it was presented
3:46:20they disagree with the conclusion they
3:46:22immediately raised their hand and the
3:46:24initial issue was then put to the side
3:46:26to go work the conclusion of it that
3:46:28didn't exist prior to Challenger it was
3:46:30all done by telephonic lat tag up
3:46:33occasionally this is a in the room
3:46:35everybody there associated with the
3:46:38activity there was a big difference at
3:46:40that time too where scheduled drove
3:46:41everything they were looking to get to a
3:46:43flight rate of 20 to 30 flights a year
3:46:45we're operating on a five to six flight
3:46:48year of a year approach and as we just
3:46:51discussed with Congressman Feeney a
3:46:52minute ago and I appreciate you bringing
3:46:53this out we stopped flight operations
3:46:55for four months over a hairline fracture
3:46:58found on not the Orbiter was scheduled
3:47:00to go up but one that's in an Orbiter
3:47:03processing facility everything ended the
3:47:05engineer the inspector that noticed that
3:47:07that stopped operations cold for four
3:47:10solid months the disjointed change of
3:47:12command that doesn't I don't see it we
3:47:14have astronauts former astronauts who
3:47:16are in capacities as high as the Deputy
3:47:19Administrator the associate
3:47:20administrator for space flight the
3:47:22assist associate administrator for
3:47:24safety and Mission Assurance all three
3:47:25are former astronauts that didn't exist
3:47:28prior to Challenger none of those those
3:47:30positions included anybody with that
3:47:32kind of background and all the way
3:47:34through this process every single one of
3:47:37those managers are empowered are
3:47:39expected there's a responsibility that
3:47:41each of them feel they have to stand up
3:47:44and be counted and stop all the
3:47:46operations until there is any issue that
3:47:49has been left unresolved beaten to
3:47:52ground truth so what I've seen again
3:47:54from a from an objective opinion I think
3:47:57until a year ago and now I'm steeped in
3:47:59it there's no doubt about it but until
3:48:00that time unfamiliar with it other than
3:48:03what I read in the Challenger Rogers
3:48:05commission report as well would tell me
3:48:08this is a different place than what it
3:48:09was then all that said
3:48:11we will be guided by what the game and
3:48:14board comebacks and comes back and tells
3:48:15us was the problem here and if it was a
3:48:17systemic problem we're going to fix it
3:48:19if it was a technical problem we're
3:48:21going to fix that too there is nothing I
3:48:23can imagine that's not on the table and
3:48:25I have no bias against any finding they
3:48:28could possibly come up with that
3:48:30wouldn't otherwise contribute to the
3:48:31solution in this particular case we're
3:48:33going to act on that without reservation
3:48:35thank you very much Mr Moore
3:48:37thank you Mr chairman thank you Mr
3:48:39O'Keefe for staying um yesterday in the
3:48:42Washington Post it was reported I
3:48:44believe that you said that
3:48:47you defended the way you set up the
3:48:49accident investigation board arguing
3:48:50that you proceeded the way you did so
3:48:53that it could launch an investigation
3:48:55immediately with members who were
3:48:57already well briefed on shuttle
3:48:58operations
3:49:00I guess my question is Mr O'Keefe how
3:49:03important it is that we launch an invest
3:49:04investigation immediately or should we
3:49:07take a more slow and diligent approach
3:49:10as I think he said to Miss Sheila
3:49:12Jackson Lee recently and I'm just I'm
3:49:14asking what what kind of
3:49:17what kind of Investigation do we need
3:49:19here what's in your opinion the best
3:49:21approach yes sir thank you
3:49:23um I believe what I tried to say and if
3:49:26I was inarticulate I apologized was to
3:49:28say we we developed the contingency plan
3:49:32to activate and investigate a board so
3:49:34that they could act immediately get on
3:49:35with the task immediately they are not
3:49:37and if I said this I am an error and I
3:49:39need to correct the record they are not
3:49:41conversing and shuttle operations
3:49:42there's only one member of the group who
3:49:45is even Vaguely Familiar with NASA
3:49:47operations the rest of them have had no
3:49:49experience with NASA at all the chairman
3:49:52of the board is Hal Gaiman the United
3:49:54States Navy Admiral retired who never
3:49:58had any association with NASA I don't
3:49:59even think he ever attended a launch
3:50:01before uh all of the the uh the other
3:50:04members of the board are from the FAA
3:50:06the Department of Transportation the
3:50:08United States Navy the United States Air
3:50:09Force all folks folks dealing with
3:50:11safety Mission Assurance flight
3:50:13certification Etc I don't know of any of
3:50:16them even have even toured a NASA
3:50:18facility
3:50:19they spent
3:50:21the past week in Shreveport Louisiana
3:50:24and then have now just now just passed
3:50:28Friday arrived at Johnson Space Center
3:50:31and went through the simulation of what
3:50:34a re-entry is like that astronaut
3:50:36simulations they do none of them have
3:50:37never been through that before so
3:50:39Admiral Gaiman has advised me that part
3:50:41of what he's done this past week is get
3:50:42up to speed on what he calls shuttle 101
3:50:45just to understand what the lingle means
3:50:47and what the what the acronyms are they
3:50:50are nonetheless were available up and
3:50:51running and talking to each other as
3:50:54early as seven and a half hours after
3:50:56the accident on Friday on Saturday
3:50:58afternoon at 5 PM they were already
3:51:01identified and ready to go
3:51:03so at least we picked up the time that
3:51:05gave them the opportunity to then become
3:51:08more familiar with the processes the
3:51:10evidence the facts the data so they get
3:51:12about the business of investigating as
3:51:14quickly as possible before the trails go
3:51:16cold
3:51:17that's the approach that you know
3:51:18certainly there's no one size fits-all
3:51:21approach to this but it certainly was
3:51:22one of the most effective ways to get
3:51:25moving slide 33 if you would gents at
3:51:27least this is what happened two days
3:51:30after the event that's the folks that
3:51:32got there and they're talking to FEMA uh
3:51:35you know managers on site you know it at
3:51:38least gave us an opportunity to get
3:51:39moving as opposed to sitting around
3:51:41thinking about who should we pick when
3:51:43should they go
3:51:44in terms of a realistic time frame that
3:51:46what might Congress the American people
3:51:48expect as to when you see this
3:51:51investigation really getting underway
3:51:53and I know you can't predict what
3:51:55results we're going to find I assume you
3:51:57can't predict what results we're going
3:51:58to find but uh what what time frame are
3:52:00we looking at Mr O'Keefe well the guy
3:52:02that's right on the other side of the
3:52:04fellow with the FEMA jacket on on right
3:52:06ahead of him is Admiral Hal Gaiman and
3:52:08he can answer that question better than
3:52:10I can I wouldn't even presume to suggest
3:52:12when he's going to finish and he has
3:52:14there's no amount of time
3:52:16that's necessary that we think is
3:52:18appropriate to go out and find out what
3:52:20happened here we're going to be guided
3:52:22by he and his board's view of exactly
3:52:24what occurred and there is no time limit
3:52:26on that thank you thank you I appreciate
3:52:28it very much thank you very much Mr
3:52:30Moore
3:52:31uh Mr administrator I want to thank you
3:52:34very much before we wrap up I just want
3:52:36to
3:52:37touch on a couple more points I want to
3:52:38bring Clarity to a very important issue
3:52:41I think it should be
3:52:43self-evident that the Congress is
3:52:45committed to the proposition on a
3:52:47bipartisan bicameral basis that we need
3:52:50to strengthen the evidence supporting
3:52:53the assertion that the Columbia action
3:52:56investigation board is truly independent
3:53:00I know the message has been sent and I
3:53:05think it's been received and I know it's
3:53:07been heard and I want some assurance
3:53:09that it will be heated so I'd like you
3:53:12to visit that a little bit more in
3:53:14common I I carefully listened to you as
3:53:18you said you will consult with Admiral
3:53:21Gaiman but I hope you're hearing what
3:53:23Congress is saying we are the ones and
3:53:28others too insisting that we get some
3:53:30clarity to this issue
3:53:32so can you address that a little bit
3:53:34more for me yes sir no I appreciate your
3:53:36patience on it and I do not mean to
3:53:38equivocate in any way shape or form I I
3:53:41share exactly the same objective I think
3:53:43as all members here do which is to
3:53:45determine what are the answers to this
3:53:48tragedy what are the facts that led to
3:53:50it and ultimately find out how we go
3:53:52about fixing it and getting back to safe
3:53:54flight
3:53:55and in that Pursuit I will not just
3:53:57consult with Admiral game and I will
3:53:59advise as soon as this hearing is
3:54:01concluded I will give him a call back
3:54:02and say my clear understanding from the
3:54:04members of this joint committee is that
3:54:07there are aspects of the charter that
3:54:09need further revision let's examine what
3:54:11those might be
3:54:13and to his satisfaction we will make a
3:54:15change let me give you an easy one right
3:54:17off the bat I mean number 10 provide a
3:54:19final written report to the NASA
3:54:21administrator not late in 60 days first
3:54:23of all the 60-day time frame is totally
3:54:26unrealistic but the report
3:54:29will come to the president to the
3:54:32Congress to the American people and to
3:54:34the NASA administrator simultaneous yes
3:54:36sir all right I'll make that that
3:54:38alteration and suggest to him that
3:54:39that's exactly and we'll go ahead and
3:54:41make that chart of change because again
3:54:42I've stated that there's a letter too
3:54:44that I I that's part of the record as
3:54:46well that uh on the 60-day issue that
3:54:49when I commissioned the the the the
3:54:51panel in the very first place said our
3:54:54contingency plan kind of played at 60
3:54:55days but you take whatever time you
3:54:58think you need Mr chairman Admiral to
3:55:00come to conclusion on this I'll
3:55:02reiterate that we will initiate the
3:55:0460-day it has no bearing it was intended
3:55:06as part of the the contingency plan
3:55:09originally but not envisioned to be used
3:55:10so to the extent that there is any
3:55:13amount of time he needs that's what he's
3:55:14got I don't intend to impose anything
3:55:16you know different that's easiest one
3:55:18you know some others that well
3:55:19absolutely we'll revise whatever we want
3:55:22to deal with it clearly so that it's
3:55:25clear in our own minds that they're
3:55:26truly independent yes they decide they
3:55:28want to go down a certain path or they
3:55:30want to hire a certain expert they don't
3:55:32have to March over to NASA headquarters
3:55:34to get approval the Admiral and and the
3:55:37Columbia action investigation board have
3:55:39the authority to proceed as they deem
3:55:42best to get us the answers we are all
3:55:46demanding and that's critically
3:55:48important yes sir I concur I appreciate
3:55:50it thank you well I I think as we come
3:55:52to the end we've done several things
3:55:54today the first and foremost the current
3:55:57status report and obviously this is a
3:55:59very Dynamic situation so events almost
3:56:02change hour by hour let alone day by day
3:56:05and so that was very important and we've
3:56:07started what I have characterized and my
3:56:10opening remarks as the national
3:56:12conversation which we have to start
3:56:15people talking to each other not through
3:56:18each other over each other around each
3:56:20other directly we have affirmed the
3:56:23commitment to the concept of an
3:56:26independent board and we've had
3:56:28agreement on the need for Charter
3:56:30changes I think that is very important
3:56:33now
3:56:35this is not the beginning of the end
3:56:37it's the end of the beginning and we
3:56:39always want instant analysis of
3:56:42immediate findings and that's
3:56:44understandable but experience tells us
3:56:46we learn the most from in-depth
3:56:49examination of more complete data so now
3:56:53we are in the fact assembling phase and
3:56:57all of us with responsibility in this
3:56:59very important assignment the Congress
3:57:02NASA the Columbia accident investigation
3:57:05board are all going about the business
3:57:08of assembling the facts then all of us
3:57:11will have this database to look at
3:57:15and take
3:57:17care and caution as we go forward with
3:57:20our special responsibilities obviously
3:57:22NASA and the accident investigation
3:57:25board will be focusing more on the
3:57:27technical aspects obviously there's a
3:57:30need on the part of the Congress to
3:57:32focus more on policy
3:57:35as we chart the course for the future
3:57:38that does not mean they are mutually
3:57:40exclusive we'll be looking at each other
3:57:42I have been very pleasant very pleased
3:57:46with the response I've had from Admiral
3:57:50Gaiman assuring us that Congress will be
3:57:52very much involved in all of the
3:57:54proceedings I've been very pleased with
3:57:57the cooperation we've seen received from
3:57:59administrator O'Keefe and his team and I
3:58:03have been just impressed Beyond any
3:58:07ability to uh adequately explain
3:58:11at the total commitment
3:58:13I find on the part of every single
3:58:16person
3:58:17involved in this procedure
3:58:20to get the facts
3:58:22and let us be guided by the facts as we
3:58:25fulfill our important responsibilities
3:58:27Mr administrator thank you
3:58:30hearing
3:58:34[Music]
3:58:51thank you
3:59:05we'll talk about the shuttle Columbia
3:59:06investigation on tomorrow morning's
3:59:08Washington Journal as we're joined by

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