Sherri Papini 'Caught in the Lie': An Interview with filmmaker Nicole Rittenmeyer — Transcript

Full transcript

1. 0:00[Music]
2. 0:03top of that nine line. And Drew said,
3. 0:05"Look, if you're not into geopolitics,
4. 0:07you won't notice it." I mean, hello.
5. 0:14[Music]
6. 0:20Hey guys, I'm Lauren Conlin from Pop
7. 0:23Prime TV's The Outlier podcast, and
8. 0:26today we're going to dive into this case
9. 0:28that I personally could not look away
10. 0:31from. It was like one of those car
11. 0:33crashes that you can't tear your eyes
12. 0:35from. Uh, the Sherry Pini kidnapping
13. 0:39hoax. And Investigation Discovery has a
14. 0:42new four-part docue series called Sherry
15. 0:44Pini Caught in the Lie. And it premiered
16. 0:47yesterday, Monday, uh, May 20, I'm
17. 0:50sorry, it premiered, yes, Monday, May
18. 0:5326th, and Tuesday, May 27th from 9 to 11
19. 0:57Eastern. And it also streams on Max the
20. 1:00next day, so you can catch everything
21. 1:02there. But the series featured
22. 1:05unprecedented access to Sherry Pini
23. 1:08herself, speaking on camera for the
24. 1:10first time since her 2016 quote
25. 1:13disappearance, her return, and then her
26. 1:162022 arrest for orchestrating
27. 1:18everything. So joining me today is the
28. 1:21filmmaker, director of this very
29. 1:23powerful docu series, Nicole Rittenmeer,
30. 1:26and she has really brought this story to
31. 1:29life. I can imagine it it wasn't easy.
32. 1:32Uh she had to weave together all of
33. 1:34these interviews, the archival footage,
34. 1:36and new insights into this case that
35. 1:39still seems to spark a debate. So, with
36. 1:42our coverage of of the Diddy trial, this
37. 1:45is such a welcome distraction right now.
38. 1:47And and again, I've seen half of the
39. 1:50series and it's so good. So, I am
40. 1:53thrilled to welcome Nicole Ritten Meer.
41. 1:56Hi, Nicole. Thank you so much for
42. 1:58joining me. Hi, Lauren. Nice to meet
43. 2:00you. Nice to meet you as well. So, I
44. 2:03mean, you've directed a number of very
45. 2:06impactful true crime projects and you've
46. 2:09took on the Sherry Pini kidnapping hoax.
47. 2:13I mean, did you know about this before
48. 2:15or were you kind of introduced to this
49. 2:17story and like, you know, your head is
50. 2:19just exploding? How did you kind of get
51. 2:21introduced to to this case? I did know
52. 2:24about it. I mean, it was such a massive
53. 2:27story that I think everybody knew a
54. 2:29little bit about it. Um, and then when
55. 2:32it sort of um my agent brought it to me,
56. 2:36my initial response was kind
57. 2:38of I don't know if I really want to do
58. 2:40that because it doesn't really seem like
59. 2:42it's very meaty. I I sort of assumed she
60. 2:46would come on and the whole show would
61. 2:48be a big miaulpa about, you know, I was
62. 2:52going through something or I'm so sorry,
63. 2:54blah blah blah blah. And that isn't what
64. 2:57happened at all.
65. 2:59Yeah. Right. Like a normal person would
66. 3:02know, sorry, that sounds horrible.
67. 3:03Normal is a bad word to use, but yes,
68. 3:06you are 100% correct. So, I mean, when
69. 3:09you when you sat down to do this to do
70. 3:11these interviews, you know, what was
71. 3:14your reaction? Was your jaw kind of on
72. 3:16the floor? Like, we we have this
73. 3:17evidence, Sherry. We, you know, I mean,
74. 3:20it it's it's it's tough, but I'm Yeah, I
75. 3:22I would love to hear your insight there.
76. 3:24Yeah. So, it's really interesting
77. 3:26because when you have a show with an
78. 3:30unreliable narrator, which is the case
79. 3:33here, and I've never had anything that
80. 3:37really required quite this level of
81. 3:40scrutiny. I mean, I've done 911 docs
82. 3:43about the whole, you know, congressional
83. 3:45report and I thought that was involved.
84. 3:46JFK assassination, Third Reich. Um, this
85. 3:51was so challenging because you know
86. 3:55whatever she tells you, you you come to
87. 3:58conversations with her distrusting her
88. 4:00immediately. She is a convicted liar,
89. 4:03right? So, I would say a couple things.
90. 4:06I mean, one is I I truly spent an
91. 4:09inordinate amount of time trying to
92. 4:12catch her. Um, we spent we ended up with
93. 4:16about 30 hours, more than that. Um,
94. 4:20really a lot of video and transcripts
95. 4:22with her that we captured on camera, but
96. 4:25I spent more time with her than the FBI
97. 4:26did.
98. 4:28And, you know, it was a it took a
99. 4:31village. Like, I have five producers,
100. 4:33three editors on on post, and everybody.
101. 4:36It was like we were constantly checking
102. 4:38ourselves. I really wanted to make sure
103. 4:40that I wasn't getting played. Um, you
104. 4:44know what I mean? Like totally, totally.
105. 4:47Just like basic human, you know, your
106. 4:49ego is driving that and some of that
107. 4:51like that's my job. Like I can't be
108. 4:53duped by this woman. I have to like
109. 4:55present everything that she says, but
110. 4:56challenge her where it's appropriate.
111. 4:59Yeah. And how did you how did you gain
112. 5:01her trust, I guess? Was she kind of
113. 5:03standoffish like, "Oh, are you going to
114. 5:04make me look bad?" type of thing. I've
115. 5:06already looked so bad. I mean, her own
116. 5:08faults, but but yeah,
117. 5:11you know, it she
118. 5:13um as she says in the film, she's hit
119. 5:18rock bottom. I mean, there's really she
120. 5:21has been called everything but a child
121. 5:23of the Lord online. I'm still stunned at
122. 5:26how
123. 5:27much hatred and vitrial there is, you
124. 5:31know, directed at her when at the end of
125. 5:34the day, the only person who really got
126. 5:37hurt in this whole fiasco was her. You
127. 5:40know, it's it's kind of interesting.
128. 5:42There should there should be a whole
129. 5:43other show just about that. Like, why
130. 5:45does this woman trigger people so much?
131. 5:48Um, and now I forgot your question.
132. 5:51Well, I mean, no, I it's interesting. I
133. 5:53mean, I feel like I can't imagine though
134. 5:56like being a child, right, and thinking
135. 5:58my mother was kidnapped or or I guess at
136. 6:00the time, you know, as a husband think I
137. 6:02just feel like she put I mean, she put
138. 6:05everybody through a lot and just the
139. 6:07Reading, California area. I mean, I
140. 6:10worked on a case there about a missing
141. 6:11mom who wasn't blonde and wasn't white
142. 6:15and I feel like she's still she's still
143. 6:17missing and she has not gotten the
144. 6:20attention that Sher Effing Pini did. And
145. 6:22this always comes up and the police, you
146. 6:25know, the the I think it's the Shasta
147. 6:26County Sheriff's Office. They're very
148. 6:28cognizant of that, I think, and they are
149. 6:30tiptoeing around a lot of this stuff
150. 6:32because they look so bad. But sorry, I
151. 6:34digress. I was wondering about how you
152. 6:36seem to gain her trust so she wouldn't
153. 6:38think you were gonna Yeah. make her look
154. 6:40horrible. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know,
155. 6:43we did we did spend a lot of time with
156. 6:45her. um you know one of her requests
157. 6:47this was kind of interesting one of her
158. 6:49requests um and she didn't you know she
159. 6:52she did not have editorial control she
160. 6:54didn't get to choose the director I mean
161. 6:56obviously we had to meet and kind of you
162. 6:58know vibe or whatever but um what she
163. 7:01had said is you know can you please find
164. 7:03me not just a female director but a mom
165. 7:06I I'd love it if there was a mom because
166. 7:08she feels like that is her main identity
167. 7:12and I guess she thought that if she had
168. 7:16a
169. 7:17mom, that person might be more inclined
170. 7:21to be sympathetic towards her. I am a
171. 7:23mom. I have three kids and I was like,
172. 7:29means nothing.
173. 7:31You know, at the end of the day, totally
174. 7:34thinking that. Sorry to like, yeah, I'm
175. 7:37a mom, too. I get it. We all get
176. 7:39stressed. Yes. Very stressed, Nicole.
177. 7:42You can attest to that. We want to kill
178. 7:43our husbands. when I like we're just
179. 7:44like, "Oh my gosh, no one is helping me.
180. 7:46You leave your all over the floor.
181. 7:47I get it. No one's thankful. No one's
182. 7:49grateful." Like I also I just No, I'm
183. 7:52not going to fake my own effing
184. 7:54kidnapping. And I mean, okay. Yeah.
185. 7:56Right. So, that was her idea. That is if
186. 8:00you believe that she did indeed fake her
187. 8:03own kidnapping. Remember that the charge
188. 8:05was, and this is the thing that people I
189. 8:07think don't always recognize, the charge
190. 8:09was lying to the FBI. The charge was not
191. 8:12sneaking your own kidnapping because
192. 8:14that's not a charge. Um, and she fully
193. 8:17admits that she lied to the FBI for a
194. 8:20very long time and purposefully sent
195. 8:22them in the wrong direction. Like the
196. 8:24literal opposite of where she actually
197. 8:26was because she was trying to hide the
198. 8:30identity of the person she says did
199. 8:32kidnap her. So it's kind of you know the
200. 8:36effort on our part was to kind of
201. 8:38present all of this present her case and
202. 8:41also the people who believe and support
203. 8:44her which you know yeah your mom and dad
204. 8:47of course but like she's got credible
205. 8:49people in the community who are like
206. 8:51yeah I think this happened to her. So
207. 8:54you know present all of that push back
208. 8:56on her where it seemed like hey you're
209. 8:58maybe taking some liberties with the
210. 9:00truth here. Be vigilant about that. Um,
211. 9:03but you know, leave it to viewers to
212. 9:04decide if if they believe this version
213. 9:06of her story, right? I mean,
214. 9:10yeah. Again, I haven't finished it just
215. 9:13yet, but I obviously, you know, I'm
216. 9:15leaning towards No. Uh, but I mean, what
217. 9:19what surprised you the most while you
218. 9:22were talking to her? I mean, I Yeah, I
219. 9:24can imagine that you were just like,
220. 9:26what? I mean, so many things. um chief
221. 9:30among them was I started finding errors
222. 9:36and inaccuracies in previous reporting
223. 9:41which you know I have to say definitely
224. 9:44benefited Sherry in in one kind of way
225. 9:47because yeah she's a convicted liar and
226. 9:49such a famous liar she's been
227. 9:51memorialized forever as a liar in an
228. 9:53Eminem song like you don't you don't get
229. 9:54cheap you know that's like pinnacle pop
230. 9:57culture right yeah Totally right.
231. 10:01So what I found is a lot of the things
232. 10:04that are out there are not true. A lot
233. 10:07of the claims that were made in other
234. 10:10shows
235. 10:11are wrong. Flatout wrong. Um so that was
236. 10:15a surprise. I will say also that we
237. 10:20pushed her other than me just sort of
238. 10:22challenging her in the interview which
239. 10:24we I do a lot and we you know we keep
240. 10:26that in the film so you can see we're
241. 10:28not just like letting her run rough shot
242. 10:29with whatever the hell she wants to say
243. 10:31right um you know we made her take a
244. 10:34polygraph I say we made her we persuaded
245. 10:38her to take a polygraph she did not want
246. 10:40to do that we persuaded her to act in
247. 10:42her own reenactments she did not want to
248. 10:45do that uh both of these things,
249. 10:48particularly the the reenactments,
250. 10:50probably skirted as close to
251. 10:53ethically challenging as anything I've
252. 10:56ever done because it was triggering for
253. 10:58her. Um we anticipated that it might be
254. 11:02and I didn't know it was going to
255. 11:04happen, but I absolutely did not expect
256. 11:07what did happen. That was stunning. And
257. 11:11if it wasn't for I would have questioned
258. 11:13my own sort of interpretation of it if
259. 11:17it wasn't for my entire crew, my
260. 11:19producers, my DP, we all saw the drone
261. 11:22operator. We all saw the same thing, you
262. 11:24know, and that
263. 11:26was not something I anticipated. Can you
264. 11:30share with my viewers and listeners what
265. 11:32you saw or do um Yes. Do you want to
266. 11:36wait? Yeah. I'm just Yes. I mean, no
267. 11:38trying to avoid the spoilers, but I will
268. 11:41say that um she had an incredibly
269. 11:46um physical response to being put into
270. 11:51the same situation where, you know,
271. 11:54because we were kind of reenacting the
272. 11:56day she was abducted
273. 11:58and you could see her, not only could
274. 12:01you, and this isn't in the show, so I
275. 12:03will share a little outside
276. 12:07But um she trembled so hard so
277. 12:12physically. It was it was visible from
278. 12:1520 ft. We caught it on camera. And you
279. 12:18cannot I checked. You cannot fake that
280. 12:22kind of autonomic nervous response. Um
281. 12:26you know uncontrolled tre trembling is
282. 12:29not like I can't make myself do that.
283. 12:30You can't make yourself do that. So that
284. 12:34was bracing.
285. 12:36Could I mean I don't know if you look
286. 12:38deeper into or how deep, but could you
287. 12:41could
288. 12:42one picture something else in their
289. 12:45brain to elicit this trembling? And I I
290. 12:47feel horrible saying this, Nicole. Like
291. 12:49I feel like I guess I feel bad like if
292. 12:51she is saying that this happened to her,
293. 12:53you know, and as I'm I guess as I'm
294. 12:55talking to you about this and listening
295. 12:57to you, the wheels are turning in my
296. 12:58brain where I'm like, "Okay, I had this
297. 13:00in my head. I thought I did the
298. 13:01research. You're telling me some of it's
299. 13:03incorrect. I didn't fact check
300. 13:05everything I read um because I didn't go
301. 13:07too deep into this, but that's really
302. 13:10interesting about the trembling and
303. 13:11that's that's scary. But can one picture
304. 13:15themsel in another situation or picture
305. 13:17themselves in another situation force
306. 13:19that Yeah. Not according to the two
307. 13:23psychiatric experts that I consulted.
308. 13:26Like there's no way to just summon that
309. 13:28and conjure that. Um a and yeah I mean
310. 13:32and also by the way Lauren don't fault
311. 13:34yourself because there have been whole
312. 13:36documentaries that you know presumably
313. 13:38took as as long as ours did uh that
314. 13:41include erroneous information. So you
315. 13:45know it's it's confusing and a lot of it
316. 13:47is a lot of it has been withheld. I mean
317. 13:49you know as you noted she has literally
318. 13:51never spoken. And one of the things that
319. 13:54that is sort of in our society it it's
320. 13:57what we consider kind of closure and the
321. 13:59the the the public record is of course a
322. 14:02criminal trial and there wasn't one. She
323. 14:05pleaded guilty. We get into the reasons
324. 14:06why um in the show but she pleaded
325. 14:09guilty and so her version of the story
326. 14:13has never been heard has never been
327. 14:15vetted. Chasta County never heard it.
328. 14:16The FBI never heard it. So the first
329. 14:18time they're hearing it is actually in
330. 14:20our show. Wow. That I mean and and you
331. 14:24know what I you're right. Everybody has
332. 14:27reasons why they do certain things, why
333. 14:29they plead guilty, and we haven't heard
334. 14:31it before. When you heard all of that,
335. 14:34you know, why she did what she did in
336. 14:37that, I guess, that time period um of
337. 14:40this case, did you believe that? Did you
338. 14:42find that to be credible with everything
339. 14:43that she was telling you as a whole?
340. 14:46Well, again, like I don't know if I ever
341. 14:48got to a place with her where I trusted
342. 14:51her 100%. Because that would be dumb,
343. 14:56right? Um, what I did find incredibly
344. 15:00persuasive though were the people who
345. 15:03back her up. Um, you know, her best
346. 15:07friend/sister is actually Keith's
347. 15:09sister. Keith's sister believes and
348. 15:13supports her. Um, her therapist believes
349. 15:16and supports her, her family law
350. 15:18attorney believes and supports her, and
351. 15:20really most persuasive to me, like this
352. 15:23blew my mind. She has all these friends
353. 15:27from prison, and that's going to be in
354. 15:29part two. Um, all of these friends from
355. 15:32prison who she comes in and they can't
356. 15:34stand her because, you know, she's
357. 15:36famous, she's, you know, beautiful, she
358. 15:38got more whatever and she's a liar. and
359. 15:42she persuaded them. She told them her
360. 15:45story and they believe her. And we're
361. 15:48talking about women who are liars, who
362. 15:50have been lied to, who are victims
363. 15:52themselves, as most women who are
364. 15:54incarcerated are. So, they can spot a a
365. 15:57bull I don't know if I can swear, but
366. 16:00you know what I mean. Yeah, you can.
367. 16:02Yeah. Yeah. A bullshitter. Yeah. So,
368. 16:04that was And it wasn't just one of them.
369. 16:07We interviewed We interviewed one, but I
370. 16:09spoke to several that were like, "Oh,
371. 16:11yeah, 100%. That's my girl. I got her. I
372. 16:13know that's what happened to her." Oh my
373. 16:16gosh. I I mean, okay, that's so
374. 16:19interesting. And that, as you said,
375. 16:21that's kind of what persuaded you the
376. 16:23most because Sherry's past stories have
377. 16:25had so many holes. I mean, I guess, you
378. 16:27know, I'm just thinking about this from
379. 16:29your perspective here and you, like I
380. 16:31said, you've worked on a lot of great
381. 16:32projects and this is just crazy because
382. 16:35you have to be this investigative
383. 16:37journalist and also a director. You're
384. 16:39wearing all these hats trying to put
385. 16:41this together and you have to figure out
386. 16:44and and spot a liar each. That's so
387. 16:47difficult. I mean, did you were you
388. 16:49close with your producers or your Okay.
389. 16:52Were they kind of like
390. 16:54Yeah. No, this is so the people that
391. 16:57were on this project with me have some
392. 16:59of them I go back with almost 20 years.
393. 17:02Um they're like the best people I know
394. 17:04in the business and my editors are
395. 17:06predators, you know, producer editor. Um
396. 17:09very very smart, seasoned people. And if
397. 17:13any of us, you know, people were like
398. 17:16flip-flopping on the fence, um, you
399. 17:19know, kind of all over the place
400. 17:21throughout the whole process, but I I I
401. 17:23said to them, "Please check me. I have
402. 17:26to be I have to get close to this woman
403. 17:30to be able to sort of pierce the veil
404. 17:32and and get anything good out of this.
405. 17:34At the same time, I I need some remove.
406. 17:36I need some distance. So, please
407. 17:38challenge me if you guys feel like I'm
408. 17:40putting a thumb on the scale or, you
409. 17:42know, my personal feelings about her
410. 17:45because I will say she's her her
411. 17:47attorney says this, she's not a
412. 17:49throwaway person. Um, she is a very nice
413. 17:52person. She is a generous person. Um,
414. 17:56she's very kind. She's very gracious.
415. 17:59And I think, you know, this is another
416. 18:01thing to point out, uh, a huge thing
417. 18:04that people get wrong. If you look at
418. 18:06social media or what people have
419. 18:08speculated about, everyone assumes she's
420. 18:10a sociopath and says so, everyone
421. 18:12assumes she's a narcissist and says so.
422. 18:15She has not only not been diagnosed with
423. 18:18narcissism, she's been diagnosed with an
424. 18:20entirely different personality disorder.
425. 18:22Um, but she's had no fewer than three
426. 18:24psychiatrists evaluate her and say
427. 18:26definitively she is not a sociopath.
428. 18:29Wow. Um, that that is shocking to me. I
429. 18:34mean, what? Yeah. I mean, I'm curious.
430. 18:37Does she, you know, what does she say
431. 18:39about her husband at this point?
432. 18:42Well, so this is one of the things
433. 18:43that's really frustrating for her. You
434. 18:45know, she has, like we said, she she's
435. 18:48bitten her tongue for what are going on
436. 18:50almost 10 years now. And that has
437. 18:53allowed Keith to really her ex-husband
438. 18:57to really not just dominate but control
439. 19:00the narrative. Yes. And he was the one
440. 19:03that was chasing down media interviews
441. 19:07and had you know Good Morning America on
442. 19:09speed dial and you know was was was
443. 19:11doing all of this press. Not just while
444. 19:13she was missing, which you would totally
445. 19:15understand when you know your wife is
446. 19:17missing, right? You want to get press on
447. 19:18it. But after she came back, he
448. 19:21continued to do that. So he's always
449. 19:23spoken for her. She has never spoken for
450. 19:26herself. And he is very invested in the
451. 19:30current narrative where she's a
452. 19:32sociopath who did a, you know, hoax
453. 19:34kidnapping. In our show, you learn quite
454. 19:36a bit about their marriage and what some
455. 19:39of the challenges were around it. um you
456. 19:43know the the conventional wisdom out
457. 19:46there is that she was like so invested
458. 19:49in creating this you know this affect of
459. 19:51a perfect marriage. Um right we learned
460. 19:55that she wasn't the only one invested in
461. 19:58that and the marriage was so far from
462. 20:00perfect. Um there are some disturbing
463. 20:03aspects.
464. 20:04Okay. And that that is honestly helpful
465. 20:06to hear because I think a lot of people
466. 20:09who just read the headline surface
467. 20:11level, they assume that Keith was like,
468. 20:13I am divorcing you because you faked
469. 20:15this and you're insane and I'm going to
470. 20:17go over I mean, so that's that's
471. 20:20important context. The marriage was
472. 20:22somewhat broken before this happened.
473. 20:25Okay. Now, loaded question, but at at
474. 20:29the end of all of this, and obviously
475. 20:32you've said you don't believe everything
476. 20:34that she's said because you you know,
477. 20:36you proved the lie. Do you believe that
478. 20:39she was kidnapped?
479. 20:43So, I'm going to hedge a little bit. Um,
480. 20:46only because that, you know, in part
481. 20:48that's my job. You know, everyone has
482. 20:50asked me that. Uh, and I knew everyone
483. 20:52would ask me that. Yeah. I do think that
484. 20:55my job, like whether or not I believe
485. 20:58her is less important than making sure
486. 21:01that I get all the facts straight. I
487. 21:04push back on her where she needs to be
488. 21:06pushed back on and I present, you know,
489. 21:08the the fullest, most comprehensive
490. 21:11version of the stories so you and
491. 21:13everybody else watching can make that
492. 21:14determination on their own. Um, I do
493. 21:18believe I will say that I do believe
494. 21:22that something bad happened to her. I I
495. 21:26think we we proved that um I I feel like
496. 21:30we proved that the conventional not just
497. 21:34something bad happened to her. And I
498. 21:36won't say from who or anything else, but
499. 21:39I think that's true. And I think it's
500. 21:40also true
501. 21:42that the stories we have been told about
502. 21:45this are far from comprehensive. They're
503. 21:49just they are sort of riddled with
504. 21:51inaccuracies. Um and I I think we prove
505. 21:54that too. Wow. Oh my gosh. Now I can't
506. 21:57wait to finish it. Okay. I know what I'm
507. 21:59doing tonight. Okay. Seriously. Wow.
508. 22:02Nicole, you're amazing. Oh my gosh.
509. 22:03Thank you so much. You're like an
510. 22:05interviewer's dream. Number one. Number
511. 22:06two, you really are just so talented and
512. 22:09insightful. So, I can't wait to follow
513. 22:11you and everything that you do. Oh my
514. 22:13gosh. Really? Yeah. You're lovely.
515. 22:16Seriously, thank you so much. And so,
516. 22:18again, for everybody listening,
517. 22:20everybody watching, you can watch Sherry
518. 22:22Pini, Caught in the Lie, by the time you
519. 22:25listen to this, it will be fully
520. 22:26streaming on Max, and you're only really
521. 22:29a day a day behind uh from the premiere.
522. 22:32So, um, yeah, this is definitely a lot
523. 22:36different than than I thought it would
524. 22:37be or this interview went a lot.
525. 22:40No, but I love it. I'm I'm so thrilled.
526. 22:42So, again, thank you so much, Nicole
527. 22:44Written. I I so appreciate you and all
528. 22:47of your work. Appreciate you. Awesome.
529. 22:49Thank you so much, Lauren. Thank you.
530. 22:52[Music]
531. 22:55Of that line. Andrew said, look, if
532. 22:58you're not into geopolitics, you won't
533. 22:59notice it. I mean, hello
534. 23:10[Music]