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Shelby Steele | Why Blacks Must Reject the Victimhood Narrative | Ep. 63 — Transcript

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0:00Welcome to The Independent with Scott
0:02Atlas, brought to you by the Independent
0:03Institute. My show that tries to bring a
0:06uniquely rational perspective to some of
0:08today's most important [music] and most
0:10controversial issues. Today's guest is
0:13Shelby Steele. Shelby's a renowned
0:15author and scholar on race in American
0:17[music]
0:18society and the consequences
0:21of social programs on race relations.
0:24He's formerly the Robert and Mary and
0:26Auster Senior Fellow at Stanford's
0:27Hoover Institutions.
0:30He's written uh widely and received
0:33numerous honors and awards for his work,
0:35including the Bradley Prize, the
0:37National Humanities Medal, an Emmy
0:39Award, and the National Book Critic
0:42Circle Award in 1990.
0:45Perhaps he's best known for his book in
0:482006, White Guilt: How Blacks and
0:50[music] Whites Together Destroyed the
0:51Promise of the Civil Rights Era. He has
0:54a PhD in English, a masterers in
0:57sociology, and a bachelor's in political
0:59science.
1:01That degree from CO College in Iowa.
1:05Most importantly, I admire him as one of
1:06the very few people today that has the
1:08courage to speak out bluntly and
1:11directly on America's most divisive
1:14issue, race. He's an independent
1:16thinker, has that rare courage to speak
1:19the truth,
1:21and an issue that we desperately need to
1:23fix in our country. Shelby and I have a
1:26provocative conversation about the
1:27meaning and perspective on what is this
1:31most damaging and polarizing issue, race
1:34relations. Thanks for joining us and
1:36stay tuned. [music]
1:43Okay, Shelby Steel, welcome. Thank you
1:45for joining us.
1:46>> Thank you for having me.
1:48>> Great to see you again. uh you write and
1:51I think quite a bit of what you what
1:53your career has been devoted to has been
1:58this idea that
2:01good intentions or not, the practice of
2:05the civil rights movement has ultimately
2:08been not just a failure but disastrous
2:12harmful
2:14to the black community. uh and and and
2:16I'd like to to go go through that
2:20>> what your thinking is on that and of
2:22course your uh we we'll talk a little
2:25bit more in detail about the thesis of
2:28of your of your most important of the
2:30many important books but I'd like to go
2:33to that theme uh because as Milton
2:36Freriedman our former colleague said
2:39many things uh that were very wise as
2:41well and one of his thesis were judge a
2:44program by its results, not its
2:46intention.
2:49>> Yes. Yeah. Boy, if they if you that's a
2:53that's a hard framework of analysis for
2:56civil rights,
2:57>> right?
2:58>> Boy.
3:01Yeah. Uh again, I remember my father, we
3:05always had a garden. We couldn't go to
3:07the conveniently go to a supermarket.
3:10They didn't have them in the in the
3:12black community. still don't for that m
3:14many. Uh and his idea was that these
3:18programs that the civil rights movement
3:20was fighting for would make you a slave
3:23all over again. And he hated them. And
3:27he and he would he would argue with
3:29people and tell them he didn't he
3:32couldn't respect that that that this was
3:34this was a humiliation to black America,
3:38not a not a a gift, not something that
3:41would make the
3:43uh uh selfition. Yeah.
3:47>> Yeah. He didn't say use the language I'm
3:49using now, but he but it was similar
3:52uh which is to say that that that
3:54framework
3:56uh deprived you of agency
4:01over your own life.
4:04You were you are are uh um in a healthy
4:10society you are the agent of and you
4:12live in freedom and you find ways if
4:15this doesn't work and then you try to
4:18you are responsible for making a
4:21decision for something that will you
4:23will work. In other words is the world
4:26should be a free market in more more
4:28than just economic ways. And what
4:31happened then is that he they
4:35President Johnson was the sort of main
4:38architect of the Great Society and the
4:41war on poverty and so forth where the
4:44government said we will we will fix you
4:47up. We ruined you. We we sat upon you
4:49for three centuries.
4:51We owe you something. We know it. And
4:53here's
4:55depending on how you calculate the money
4:58in the trillions of dollars over over
5:01the 70 years since the Civil Rights Act
5:04was passed in ' 64.
5:07Well, uh you that that there you are. um
5:13you you you
5:15received this this acknowledgment of
5:17what was done to you, but uh you it it
5:21didn't it did the worst possible thing
5:24it could do. It taught you to do
5:26everything but live in freedom,
5:29but make decisions that you were you
5:33were responsible for.
5:36uh that you kind you dealt with an
5:39accountability that uh uh you were going
5:43to be responsible for and you could you
5:46saw white people all around you pick up
5:48and you know fill up their wagon trains
5:50and go west. Uh they they fought
5:54Indians, they fought nature, they they
5:57were they were in possession of their
5:59own lives.
6:02But blacks, no. We're going to we're
6:04going to uh give you a put you in an
6:07apartment building in in an urban uh
6:10environment and and uh we're going to
6:13give you a certain amount of money for
6:14food and a certain treating you like an
6:17uh and inhuman
6:21sort of again victim
6:23>> incapable. It's a culture of victimhood,
6:25I think, is uh what many including you
6:28have have used the phrase. And uh that
6:31that's destructive. And also as you
6:34wrote uh back in 2001,
6:38uh you said that the the the civil
6:41rights movement and programs were quote
6:45shaped more by the stigmatization of
6:48whites than by any other factor,
6:50including the actual needs of blacks,"
6:53unquote. So, uh you know, it's it's it's
6:56that they were harmful to black American
7:01success.
7:02Uh, but they weren't even geared in
7:05reality, in your thinking, toward black
7:07American success. They were more geared
7:09toward this idea of
7:14white guilt, of relieving white guilt.
7:17And this is of course your your most
7:18famous I think and most important
7:22concept that you you you talked about in
7:252006 in your book White Guilt, which is
7:28that the it when you examine the uh the
7:33rationale for all these programs, much
7:36of it in your opinion, if if am I saying
7:39it correctly, was really due to
7:42relieving guilt rather than actually
7:44solving problems?
7:47Well said. That's that's that's that is
7:50it. That's the
7:52the point.
7:54You you think about it. There's a
7:56certain obvious logic to it.
7:59As blacks, we're sitting there. We
8:02suddenly the country that's oppressed us
8:04now has set us free and gives us
8:06apartment buildings and jobs and all
8:08sorts of things. Uh and um
8:13we're we're we're sort of
8:16We're receiving all this, but again, we
8:19our life is not in our own hands. In
8:22order to get an apartment on the south
8:24side of Chicago and welfare under the
8:27welfare terms of those days and now uh
8:30the woman can can uh can have the the
8:33apartment and the minute she has a man
8:36come in, she loses it. So the the man
8:39the federal government of the United
8:41States is carving into the black family
8:44and breaking it up, destroying it. And
8:47they did. And uh you know, most when I
8:53was a kid, black people got married. Now
8:55there are no there are no bridal shops
8:58in in in black neighborhoods because
9:00nobody's getting married. Uh women live
9:03on welfare. They have children by as
9:06teenagers.
9:08uh the the families which is the unit
9:13that one needs in order to handle the
9:15challenges of freedom.
9:18You have to you have to have a family.
9:22There's no there's nothing to substitute
9:24for a father in the home. There's no the
9:27government can't do that. Only you can
9:30do that. But if you can't have a family
9:32then slowly but surely
9:36uh disillusionment creeps into the
9:38picture and uh you have the situation we
9:41have today which is the this great city
9:44of Chicago that I I grew up in loved
9:48uh is a hell hole. No one would live. No
9:53one would volunteer
9:54uh to live who who comes out of a
9:56tradition of freedom and and and
9:59accepting the challenges of freedom. Uh
10:03no one would want to uh would would want
10:05to bypass that. And and uh
10:09>> I'm wondering why uh why is that
10:15>> that logic that you said just now
10:19missing from the conversation? uh to a
10:22great extent about about the the
10:26so-called inequality issue. And we could
10:28talk about this concept of equity versus
10:31equality, but why is it that we don't
10:35hear
10:37uh a lot of people talking about that is
10:41it the stren the need for family, the
10:44harms of the civil rights programs.
10:48uh instead it seems to be that the
10:50dominant narrative is still more is
10:53needed. Uh and uh you know there's two
10:57aspects. One is white leadership
11:01uh as you say and have said many times
11:05uh whites have no moral authority on the
11:08issue. And you point out that President
11:10Reagan being so popular, uh, he still
11:13and being a not a believer, his
11:16administration in these racial
11:17preferences, etc., they never addressed
11:20it. They never spoke out. He never
11:22really did because whites have no moral
11:26authority on these issues. Uh, and
11:28that's one side of it, but the other
11:30side is the the black leadership, if
11:32they if I can separate people like that.
11:36uh because we still you know I happen to
11:38work out in a gym in PaloAlto and I
11:40watch on TV all the TVs are of course
11:43set to MSNBC and CNN in Palo Alto in the
11:47gym and and you you see the the constant
11:51uh racial so-called
11:55you know talking heads or if you want to
11:58use the word experts and they they
12:00really are not talking about these
12:03traditional American values being a core
12:06part of the solution. Instead, uh it's
12:10more of the same. Why? Why? Where where
12:12is everybody uh where are the Shelby
12:15Steels of today?
12:19Cancelled
12:22uh
12:25if they if they really truly are
12:27interested in freedom.
12:30You know, one of the boy I we could be
12:32here for for a month talking about this,
12:34but the
12:37the the first point you made is the is
12:42comes under the the rubric of what I
12:44call white guilt and and uh
12:48that is this a situation where in ' 64
12:5265 war on poverty all these these
12:56government programs and so forth come on
12:58board there's money everywhere where
13:00there wasn't it before and so forth and
13:03and Johnson is is going for preferential
13:09treatment of one kind or another to fix
13:12the problem the race problem and so
13:14forth. Uh what people neglected was the
13:18fact that white Americans had to live
13:22with a a real concrete circumstance
13:28in which they felt historic guilt over
13:32the the history. How could you not?
13:35You're sitting in a society in the real
13:38wealthiest society in the in history in
13:41the world and your memory your history
13:45is is part of that history was the
13:49persecution
13:51of millions of people of human beings
13:56for no reason other than the color of
13:58their skin.
14:00And then finally one day those people
14:02get to be get freedom.
14:06What do you what do you how do you
14:08handle that? Uh well again
14:12uh most of the the programs that the
14:15government then created to deal with
14:17that problem were were really and truly
14:21designed to get after that.
14:26um
14:29shame.
14:31After the shame, the Yeah. This the this
14:34the sense of the the charge
14:38that your your success, your wealth is a
14:43measure not of your character, but of
14:45your corruption.
14:48And white America has has flailed
14:53against that accusation.
14:56One of the things it means to be white
14:57in America is to be on the defensive
15:01regarding uh these
15:04poverty and race and all all these
15:06things. If the subject comes up, people
15:09run the other way. There's no winning it
15:12for for whites because whites now have
15:14historically acknowledged this and this
15:17is a burden that white America carries,
15:21>> right?
15:22>> This is what's behind all of the civil
15:25rights programs and a and DEI and and
15:29affirmative action and on and on. uh all
15:33those programs are are designed
15:36much more to deal with this difficulty
15:39in white life
15:41than uh the difficulties in black life.
15:44And so here is in in the black
15:46community, we're just wh what what's up
15:50and what's down? Maybe I should build a
15:53life around begging from white people.
15:56Maybe I should that that I should raise
15:58my children in a in in a sense. But that
16:02communicates they live in a world uh of
16:06uh of in which their inferiority
16:10is is rewarded
16:13>> and their their talent is ignored.
16:17I mean you've said whites do a lot of
16:19things
16:21>> because not because they believe them
16:23but because it buys them innocence from
16:27all the evils of western civilization
16:30>> which of course you know as we know from
16:32working with economists our all our
16:34lives both of us
16:36>> uh but not being economists we do
16:38understand that incentives are critical
16:42in terms of what happens and this was
16:44the incentive
16:46uh of white America is to relieve
16:49themselves of guilt
16:52>> rather than actually think through uh
16:54the results of what what is done. And I
16:57think that's a
16:59I don't hear other people say that uh
17:02and it seems like
17:05it's one of the things that are obvious
17:08and remain uh unable to be said.
17:12>> Yes, I I that's exactly right. I think
17:15that they they they are unable to say
17:18it. Uh it is, you know, you you you want
17:23to you want to have a sort of jingoistic
17:27happiness regarding your national
17:29identity.
17:31and whites after 1964, which was this
17:35when the civil rights bill was passed,
17:38uh, whites since then have have have had
17:41a real struggle in that area. And, uh,
17:45it's a tragedy because the people they
17:48wanted to help, blacks and other
17:50minorities,
17:51are still languishing here.
17:54Uh, look at the the report card of black
17:59performance in public schools.
18:01uh I mean we're at the bottom of every
18:03single important test of uh of
18:07development
18:09and uh again we can't we we haven't
18:14found a way yet to make um
18:19and and I try to do this in my in my
18:22work at least I try
18:26uh that you we should be able to we
18:30should be free to and encouraged
18:33uh uh and incentivized
18:37uh to take responsibility for ourselves.
18:41>> Right? white innocence. The pursuit of
18:44white innocence
18:46forces us to take responsibility
18:50uh to not take responsibility for
18:52ourselves
18:53>> to uh to to
18:58think and believe that what really will
19:01get us ahead in life is not our command
19:04of our own life but our dependency
19:09on on the benevolent goodwill of white
19:12people. You said that when Trump uh was
19:16first elected uh back in uh 2017, you
19:21wrote a piece and you said
19:25your greatest hope for the Trump
19:27administration
19:30was to find a way to get this what you
19:33called this concept, this way of life
19:35called indi individual responsibility
19:39to take hold.
19:41Uh that was back in 2017.
19:45Where are we now with that concept? Has
19:48anything changed?
19:51Well, certainly not much. Um if
19:55anything, in the election of Mr. Trump
19:59has jiggled things a bit uh for the
20:04there now is at least a kind of
20:07subcategory of called the black
20:10conservative.
20:12Well, what is the black conservative? Is
20:15he conservative? I don't know. I'm
20:17called that all the time. Uh is is that
20:20what what is that? It's just simply a
20:23black person who realizes that he's not
20:25going to get anywhere unless he takes
20:27responsibility for his own life, for
20:29getting there and just take carries a
20:33certain disdain for not doing that.
20:36>> This is interested. You got a bigger
20:39government contract than I got.
20:41>> In Chicago, when we were kids, this was
20:44called the uh Democrat party, the
20:47working class with the original mayor
20:50daily,
20:51>> right? nothing to do with conservative.
20:53It had to do with simply work hard and
20:56to get ahead.
20:58>> Yep. Yeah, that's uh that's right.
21:01There's whites don't excuse themselves
21:03from hard work and development and
21:06rigorous uh rigorous development.
21:10They excuse blacks.
21:13They say we'll lower the mer we'll lower
21:15the test score minimums in terms of
21:18college admissions. will will uh just
21:21make it easier. And and uh so what you
21:24get then is a is a group of people who
21:26say, "Wow, yes, blacks say, well, yeah,
21:30that's right. You do owe us cuz goodness
21:32knows you did all those things that you
21:34made us suffer. You were you sat there
21:37and watched it for three centuries. So
21:40you owe us dependency.
21:43We like you if you are if you encourage
21:46our dependency.
21:49We respect you. If you don't uh if you
21:53don't grant us as whites our innocence,
21:57we don't respect you.
22:00Uh and we have contempt for you and we
22:03will push you to the sideline. We're
22:05looking we all we're doing is looking
22:07for a a a mask we can wear.
22:12Well, I don't think you love me much if
22:14you want me to be you think success for
22:16me is dependency.
22:19I don't think you have money. You have
22:20money, you care. Uh but it seems that we
22:24we're in a we're in an era instead of
22:27going this is just my own opinion but in
22:30it seems like instead of going toward
22:34more accountability more individual
22:39uh effort to get ahead
22:43uh on the basis of work and seeking
22:46opportunity.
22:48We have, I think, a narrative that is
22:51pushing more and more for so-called
22:55reparations.
22:57And I'm living in California and okay, I
23:01I don't know. I'm not a good predictor,
23:03but my prediction is that California
23:05will lead the way on so-called
23:07reparations.
23:09uh what what's your what's your reaction
23:12to this discussion of a need for
23:15financial reparations? Now,
23:21uh I've heard figures we've lo we've uh
23:25that we've spent over three or4 trillion
23:28dollars on social program since 1964.
23:33uh we are vastly farther behind uh
23:37whites in every area, every important
23:40area of of American life uh would after
23:44after 30 40 years of that kind of
23:49reparations and so forth. And so if you
23:52if you give me rep reparations now,
23:57um
23:59then you know I'm gonna I'm gonna put
24:01that money I'm going to do exactly the
24:04same thing that we did the first time
24:06around. I'm going to say I you owe it to
24:09me and I want more
24:12and you you're shortch changing me on
24:15the reparations.
24:17Um, and you that's racism
24:21and uh you you're you're a racist if you
24:24aren't doing every if you aren't just
24:25giving me one thing after another. Well,
24:30um, we as blacks are going to have a
24:34bill to pay if we keep if we keep that
24:36up. Uh, white people today did not do
24:39anything. Maybe they would have if they
24:41had had a chance, but they they just
24:43aren't in that position. And the problem
24:46is again that you psychologically
24:50in imbue
24:52the the a fate and in that is
24:57where other people again control your
24:59life, your happiness, everything. and
25:02you uh just sort of shuffle around the
25:06edges
25:07uh pretending
25:10that you're you're living a normal you
25:14are in charge of your life when in fact
25:16you're not and you're you're falling
25:19farther behind again. And what you want
25:22want to do is lower the standards so
25:24that merit is merit is racist as you may
25:28not know but it is racist.
25:31Uh and and so merit too has to be where
25:34blacks are concerned reduced. So we
25:37don't get good. We wherever there's no
25:40affirmative action, there's no u
25:43dependency,
25:45we thrive.
25:48People look at basketball and sports and
25:51so forth. Well,
25:53>> nothing more merit-based than
25:55professional sports. I would
25:56>> That's right. and and the people the
25:58blacks I know who play who play uh
26:01sports uh do not believe in dependency.
26:06You come out on the playground in in in
26:09high school and you want to play
26:11basketball and you you don't help me get
26:13a basketball and you can't play uh then
26:17then you we talk about you. We talk
26:20about your mama. We talk about
26:21everything. We we we want you to be show
26:25us something that is advanced, that is
26:29new, that is exciting, that where your
26:33esteem is on the line.
26:35Uh where your faith in yourself counts.
26:41You we we're in a society now that takes
26:43all that away from us.
26:46It's not. It's me, a bleeding heart
26:48white, who is responsible for you
26:51getting into UCLA.
26:54Well, oh, who wants to get under go to
26:57UCLA under those circumstances?
27:00I would rather go to UCLA with a
27:04standard of merit that is higher than
27:06everybody else's.
27:09So when I see that that black student on
27:11campus, I say, "Whoa,
27:14this this is I know that this is a a
27:18person who who is truly interested in
27:21developing themselves.
27:24Um well,
27:26we have a these are are going to be our
27:29challenges, it seems to me, in the in in
27:31the future. uh uh is coming into this
27:36because we're not it's bigger than
27:37America. It's modernity itself.
27:40>> Yes.
27:40>> To join modernity, we we have to master
27:44these skills. We have to we have to
27:47develop uh we have to put a focus on
27:51skill development, on academic
27:53development, on economic development.
27:55Develop, develop, develop.
27:58um and become a part of this movement of
28:03human history uh that we think of as
28:06modernity.
28:07Uh people who do that thrive. Uh we see
28:10that you see that everywhere in the
28:13world.
28:14And we we do have a glimmer of positive
28:17I I would say and I think you've noticed
28:19you you've noted this in your recent uh
28:23interview with the Wall Street Journal
28:24that was published and that is the
28:28Donald Trump election, the second Donald
28:31Trump term where there was
28:35what one could say is uh a a glimmer of
28:38a shift and that is uh as you pointed
28:42out that maybe people are starting to
28:45think that race
28:48uh is not a a a reason to have blind
28:53loyalty to who you elect as president of
28:56the United States. What what what do you
28:59think uh the election uh showed us
29:04with the shift to of of young young
29:07blacks and and other minorities uh
29:10toward a little bit breaking toward
29:13Donald Trump?
29:14>> Well, I think that that we're at a place
29:17where Trump sort of represents this uh
29:20where we can't help it. history itself
29:24is sort of moving us along. Moving it's
29:26it's saying to blacks uh and whites a
29:31little differently, but it's it's saying
29:34that there
29:36there's nowhere else for you to go.
29:39Uh there's no there there's you can get
29:42reparations and uh uh as much as you
29:48want, but you've already gotten
29:49trillions of dollars of of reparations.
29:53Uh we can give you another couple
29:55trillion and you'll still be far behind.
29:57You'll still be at the very bottom.
29:59You'll be at the bottom until you take
30:01charge of your own life. until you stop
30:03looking at white people as as people to
30:06shake down
30:08with guilt.
30:10Uh that that that is that's history put
30:13us in a position where we did that where
30:16it was inevitable to do that. I remember
30:18I grew up I was a part of that Black
30:20Panthers and and all that sort of thing.
30:24Uh but it gets us gets us nowhere. Um,
30:29I'm not sure I answered the question
30:30there, but
30:31>> no, I think I think yes, I think uh, you
30:35know, you you've reflected on this this
30:37there's a slow what you called a slowly
30:41emerging reality
30:44that blacks actually are in charge of
30:46their own fate. And I think this is
30:48something that uh that you've talked
30:51about as
30:53>> uh one of the things that you've
30:54inferred from the election of Donald
30:57Trump and and also what you said was the
30:59recognition that uh someone that is
31:03running that happens to have the same
31:05skin color and here I'm talking about
31:07Kla Harris as the black community.
31:11Uh you called that almost an insult
31:16uh in that you had someone who uh did
31:20not portray competence, articulate
31:24knowledge, deep knowledge of issues, but
31:27you were sort of shamed into voting for
31:30her simply based on race or ethnicity.
31:35And uh you know there's a there you
31:37you've said there's a there's some
31:38glimmer of hope here that people are
31:40realizing that uh that that isn't the
31:43basis for for what should be uh done by
31:46the black community.
31:49>> Yes. I think that's that is that idea
31:51now is
31:54has a people are and I I attribute this
31:58to Trump. Uh many blacks now I think
32:03have have come to the place where
32:05they're at least open. I mean for the
32:08last throughout my much of my lifetime
32:12um you you know if you were black and
32:14you were against rap reparations.
32:18Uh that was about as horrible of group
32:20betrayal as as as was possible. Um, it
32:24took me a long time to to to really
32:27think that through and understand
32:30the kind the the position it keeps us in
32:33is that is one of children
32:36where we're just constantly dealing with
32:38a society in which we're seen and
32:40treated as people who are unable to live
32:44and meet the terms of of freedom uh like
32:48we like we expect of other people. Um,
32:52and so there is now black shame.
32:56There's beginning to be
32:59why when I ride through the southside
33:02now, I used to drive a bus up and down
33:04the south side of Chicago. Uh why now uh
33:10is is that not so much the case? be is
33:13and I think some of it is that uh is
33:17that this is changing is that that we
33:19understand
33:21uh that there's something a little
33:24corrupt something that compromises our
33:28character
33:29in asking a society to lower standards
33:32for others.
33:35uh and that's uh a quietly held point of
33:40view but mind my sense is it's
33:43developing it's expanding uh that that
33:47that's the there's no nowhere else
33:50nothing left for us to do nowhere else
33:52for us to go
33:54>> there's a there's a reality here that uh
33:57>> that you're interpretation yeah
34:00>> what is the I'm curious about your
34:02reception of your views and I've seen a
34:05little bit of it uh at Stanford, at
34:08Hoover. But I'm I'm curious. I'd like to
34:10hear you talk about how you your views,
34:13your work, your your thesis being such a
34:18uh contrarian
34:20and what I call a trutht teller on
34:23probably the most divisive issue in the
34:26country of all the divisive issues. uh
34:29how were you received by academia
34:32and separately by the media
34:37>> uh with uh great great trepidation. Uh
34:42I've been they talk about cancelling
34:44this year. I've been cancelled for 40
34:46years at this point. Uh and they just
34:51any message but this one
34:54because this one shames everybody. It
34:56seems to shame anybody. My feeling is it
35:00sets us all free. It's it's exactly what
35:03we need. What we need to be a little
35:05ashamed right now. We we can't have uh
35:09the Al Sharpton of the world leading us
35:13into some some sort of new uh new level
35:17of society. Uh we Joe Smith down at the
35:21corner who runs a gas station and a
35:24mechanics shop there and is is trying to
35:28open up a second one after 20 years of
35:30work. That's the person who our future
35:33depends on.
35:35Uh and I when no one cares he's in
35:39competition. No one cares uh you know
35:43what what his race is. They they care
35:45about how much how much he charges for a
35:47gallon of gas.
35:49Um the the charm I think of of of
35:54President Trump is that that's him. How
35:57much does a gallon of gas? How much do
35:59bananas cost? Uh how so you know and and
36:04there's no sort of ideological framework
36:07in play. there is a an acceptance of of
36:11simple things and meeting human needs.
36:14Uh well, we as as blacks can can do do
36:19that. There are millions of blacks
36:20who've been doing that for all the way
36:23back to slavery.
36:25>> Absolutely.
36:25>> And who who have been successful and
36:28have raised families and done all these
36:31things. And uh I just uh it makes me my
36:35heart sink when I when I see see a young
36:39black come on a university campus and
36:41and and
36:43not demand black this and black that and
36:46so but who says let me take a good
36:50substantial
36:51class here uh in which I can develop and
36:55understand the way the modern world
36:57works
36:58>> and find my place in it. I I wonder, you
37:01know, having been at Hoover myself and
37:03you've been there for many many years
37:06and uh they had a recent event honoring
37:09Tom Soul and it it makes me uh ask the
37:13question
37:14what why why what distinguishes
37:19why is someone such a independent
37:23thinker
37:25like you? I put you in the in the in the
37:29same mix as Clarence Thomas and Tom Soul
37:35in the willingness
37:39to say what is completely unacceptable
37:43to people
37:46everywhere, not just black, not just
37:49white, everyone. Uh, I think the
37:51overwhelming majority of people would
37:54find and do find what you and Clarence
37:57Thomas and Tom Soul say
38:01antithetical to what they want to
38:02believe. Uh, even though it's
38:07common sense and to me uh, what I would
38:11say is the truth. Um, what distinguishes
38:15what what gives you that independence? I
38:17I I just sort of, you know, I've been
38:19asked myself, and I'm not putting myself
38:21on your level, but I've been asked why
38:23did I why was I willing to speak the
38:27truth about COVID
38:30uh or whatever under an attack by the
38:33media, by the politicized
38:36uh world we live in. And it's because,
38:39you know, truth matters. And but but I
38:41still don't know why people like you,
38:44Clarence Thomas, Tom Soul,
38:47are are so different.
38:50What is the background that gives you
38:52that?
38:55>> It's a good question, a complicated one.
38:57Uh but by the way, I do admire the way
39:00you you did handle the coh thing.
39:02>> I wasn't fishing for a compliment, but
39:04thank you.
39:05>> No, but but nevertheless, it's one one
39:07is deserved.
39:10Um
39:12I I think in human in human affairs and
39:16human
39:17situations
39:19there are always people like uh like you
39:23and to to a degree like myself uh Tom
39:27Soul certainly
39:29u I see sort of the granddaddy of all of
39:31this. um what a willful fellow he is
39:37and how irrelevant his race is.
39:42Uh he came from a family in the south
39:45and moved up north and and uh found his
39:48way one way and where he got this this
39:51this idea uh
39:55I don't know. Uh but I I I know his work
39:59well and uh wow uh he he's he is an
40:05inspiration but I think there is and
40:08again human affairs there simply is no
40:10matter if you take a hundred people and
40:13you put them in a little village and
40:15they they and leave them alone. Some are
40:18going to rise to the top and some are
40:20going to sink to the bottom and all
40:22points in between. We we simply we
40:26produce in our society what we need
40:30and we often don't don't like what we
40:34what we need and don't like to to deal
40:37with it. But we need it anyway and it it
40:41has to be ultimately uh integrated.
40:44The world now is screaming at blacks.
40:47We've had enough. You made your point.
40:51You're free.
40:53Knock knock.
40:55You're free. We're not going to uh lower
40:58the standards at every academic
41:00institution in America so that we can
41:03continue to to feel guilty and you can
41:05continue to be feel dependent.
41:09Uh it's time for you to become
41:10independent.
41:12And it's time for us as to as as as
41:15white Americans to begin to to
41:17acknowledge what happened in the past
41:20and move move on, move into the future.
41:23Uh move move simply move away from that.
41:26There's no way to erase that from
41:29history. It is history. Uh, and
41:33it it but we need it's it's we're at a
41:36point where the white
41:40guilt the the sense that oh we're we're
41:43not the glorious America that we we say
41:46we are. We're we're really meat and evil
41:48and blah blah. That's not that that is
41:50that helps nobody at this point. Uh we
41:54and we've got to with all due apology
41:58and regret for that. Whites have to
42:02begin to have to begin to believe in
42:06their own innocence,
42:08their own they know racism now is a is
42:12one of the if not the top of the list of
42:15of evils uh at work in society. It's
42:19just it's just ungodly. It's horrible.
42:21Uh there's no comp there's no compromise
42:24with with racism. Racism is absolutely
42:28always without the faintest exception
42:32poison.
42:34It's poison. Anytime you touch it,
42:36anytime you get near it, it's poison.
42:38You will do you will join evil if you
42:41deal with it. If you ident practice it
42:45in any way. We we as Americans have paid
42:48to learn that lesson. I expect every day
42:53of of my life as an American to have
42:56that honored to live in a society that
42:59that grants me that freedom ask and
43:02holds me accountable to it so that when
43:05I get an A in a class, it's not because
43:08I'm not a pity case. It's because I got
43:11an A in a class. That's it. No more, no
43:14less. Uh, and that's the that that it
43:18seems to me is where
43:21where where where whites need to make
43:23their focus. Uh, and and
43:28dependency is the worst possible thing.
43:30We we know that now,
43:32>> right? I I think you're pointing out
43:34something which is sort of a it's a it's
43:36a fascinating concept because I feel
43:39like the biggest void in America today
43:43is a lack of courage. And in this sense,
43:46I'm going to tie it into what you're
43:47saying, which is that the lack of
43:50courage here is by whites, by white
43:53America
43:54for having the courage to say we don't
43:58need to keep relieving or trying to
44:01relieve guilt. Let's admit these
44:03programs have been destructive
44:06and move forward with the idea of equal
44:10opportunity and personal accountability
44:13rather than these so-called pseudo uh
44:17civil rights programs that ended up
44:21having harmful impact. And that's a lack
44:24of courage in my view on the part not
44:27just of politicians but of white America
44:30in general. They feel better. I'm
44:33painting with a broad brush, of course,
44:35but it seems like white America still
44:38feels better about trying to relieve
44:41their own guilt rather than do the right
44:44things.
44:45>> Well, that's absolutely right. That's
44:47that is the that is the problem. Um, and
44:51whites like that uh hate me.
44:56Uh, I run into most of the resistance I
44:59get now is from whites who who
45:02um want that black suffering.
45:07Black suffering is like a is it's like a
45:10currency of power.
45:12If I if I join
45:15uh if I encounter black suffering
45:20then there are these here's
45:22victimization
45:24and the victimization again is is that
45:27these people are somehow uh in line with
45:30the old evil segregation and so forth
45:33that they're racist
45:35and uh so that that becomes then I
45:39approach an institution in American life
45:42and I take that currency of power that
45:45and I put it on the table and say you
45:48you also get another incentive for you
45:51to take me is that you can use me uh to
45:54get money from the system to get whites
45:57hungry for innocence and in other words
46:00we can play this whole game and uh you
46:03get something and I get something and
46:06that's the symbiosis
46:09that we now have the races now have in
46:13America. One living off the other,
46:15living off the shame of the other. And
46:18blacks have now a lot to be ashamed of.
46:20That's that's the subtext behind what's
46:23happening in Chicago today. Um with the
46:26murder rates, you know, 10 20 people
46:28every weekend being shot and killed and
46:31so forth. Uh that they they're they're
46:35the want to negotiate around this. This
46:39is what that victimization of three
46:40centuries did. It left us Chicago.
46:45Uh, and you're guilty and you owe me
46:48this and you owe me that.
46:50>> Mhm. I'd like to shift gears to talk a
46:54little bit about your foundation, the
46:56Shelby Steel Foundation,
46:58uh, which I was reading a little bit
47:00about. And, you know, it it provides
47:03scholarships to, uh, collegebound teens
47:07and what you called original thinkers
47:11who are striving for, uh, equality of
47:15opportunity. And, and I want to read a
47:18two quotes that you have said on that
47:20website. One is opportunity follows
47:23struggle. It follows effort. It follows
47:26hard work. It doesn't come before that.
47:30Uh and the second one is the promised
47:32land guarantees nothing. It is only an
47:35opportunity not a deliverance.
47:38uh
47:40any any kind of concluding thoughts you
47:42have about that and maybe uh how
47:45successful uh that kind of uh foundation
47:48effort has been?
47:51Well, I think I believe in evolution.
47:54I mean, social evolution uh as well as
47:59is biological.
48:01Uh I think we will we are evolving to
48:05that. Uh again, the meeting you referred
48:09to a little while ago that that Hoover
48:11had a couple weeks ago.
48:14um those those are that they're sort of
48:18an advanced team uh and they're they're
48:23a new generation coming forward and I
48:26think they understand this whether they
48:29say it in exactly the same words or not
48:30I don't know but they they there's
48:34beginning to be an understanding of this
48:36and um the thing if I'm going to be u
48:42well The the thing that makes me
48:46happiest in life is is is to see my
48:49people
48:51overcome
48:53those three centuries. Overcoming is got
48:57to be the goal here. Uh and o overcoming
49:02is victory.
49:04It's it's the promised land. Uh it's
49:09it's all those things. and and uh uh
49:13that's what I s that's what I uh long to
49:17see and when I see flashes of that, you
49:19know, uh I met a girl who works as a in
49:24uh
49:26what's what's the name of the
49:29stationary store?
49:32Staples.
49:33>> Okay.
49:33>> Black young black girl. and she came up
49:35to me and and we talked for a while and
49:38and uh she she said that she said
49:40sometimes I she had read something I'd
49:43written and she said sometimes I just
49:45look at that uh and and I can keep
49:48going. I can uh cuz then I know it's
49:51it's on me.
49:54It's on me and uh uh I wish I could
49:59reproduce her but I can't I can't.
50:02>> Right. She But it makes you feel good.
50:04It makes you feel really
50:07>> uh to see you don't have to take care of
50:10treat me like a baby forever more
50:12because of what people did three
50:14centuries ago. It's never going to go
50:16away. It's a part of history. Let's move
50:19move on and and uh whites please
50:24put money where where development can
50:28happen. I hope our our our scholarship
50:30program does that. We want people, we
50:33want development. We want kids who are
50:37who are who are ready to be responsible
50:40and and move ahead.
50:42>> Right? There's nothing more liberating I
50:44I I look at it than uh than competing
50:49and winning. Uh that that's that's uh
50:53that's the work ethic. And you know, I I
50:55I come from the same sort of background,
50:57although uh obviously I'm white. Uh but
51:01uh that's
51:02>> don't apologize.
51:04>> I don't apologize for it. I in fact I'm
51:07you know I'm the first generation who
51:08went to college and and I think in my
51:11family a family of immigrants
51:13uh the work ethic is what made America
51:18and people come here specifically for
51:22opportunity for individual and family
51:26success.
51:28>> Yeah. And uh somehow we have to we have
51:31to hope that that is the the message
51:33because that's why America is a great
51:35country. Uh it's not people don't come
51:38here for entitlements and handouts and
51:41uh we have to recognize as you say so
51:44often these programs are failures.
51:47They're they're not they're destructive.
51:50Uh and we need we need courageous
51:53leadership to step up and say it. And uh
51:57it's got to be from the black and the
51:59white uh white leadership in our
52:02society. Uh so I'm I'm hoping we see a
52:05little crack of that with the subtle
52:07shift of voters toward toward Trump. Uh
52:13it remains to be seen. I'm I'm still uh
52:15I'm still very concerned, but I'm I'm
52:18hopeful. Uh and I I want to thank you
52:21really for everything that you have
52:23done. uh you know, I've seen you speak
52:27many times at Hoover and uh read a lot
52:31of your work and it's uh it's so
52:34important and impactful. I'm hoping that
52:36there's another generation of Shelby
52:38Steels to take up that mantle.
52:43>> I go for that.
52:46>> Well, thank you and uh thanks for having
52:49me. I I uh you represent the precisely
52:53the kind of voice that I long to see at
52:57work in this in play in this this whole
53:01situation. Uh
53:04you've got it and uh it's got to be it's
53:07going to have impact on people. It's
53:09going to make people think uh because
53:12you have a lot of moral authority as
53:14well. You're not afraid to talk about
53:17these things. You're not afraid of the
53:19truth. Uh well, boy, then I because I
53:23know you'll pay a price.
53:25>> Yes, it's Yes, sir. But you got to keep
53:27your eye on the ball, right? I mean,
53:29again, like it it seems very obvious,
53:32but you know, uh
53:34>> the frustration is uh it seems like we
53:38don't have a lot of people who see
53:39what's so obvious, but uh we keep going.
53:43We don't give up. And uh I thank you uh
53:45Shelby again for taking the time today.
53:48Hope to have you back again.
53:50>> Well, hope to come back again. Thanks
53:52for having me.
53:53>> Thank you. Thank you for listening to
53:55The Independent with Scott Atlas. If you
53:58want to find out more about today's
54:00guest, Shelby Steele, check out his many
54:02important books and interviews and watch
54:05for his upcoming film early in the 2026
54:08[music]
54:09year an update to his book White Guilt.
54:13And don't forget, subscribe to this show
54:14on YouTube as well as Spotify, Apple,
54:16Google, and anywhere else you're
54:18listening to podcast right now. And I'll
54:20see you next time.

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