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"SESTARO VOCÊ É DE ESQUERDA..." TRETA no DEBATE. — Transcript

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0:00You are being intellectually dishonest.
0:04I attack, I attack and criticize any
0:06dictatorship.
0:08I have never defended a damn
0:10dictatorship anywhere.
0:12We are joined by Felipe Cestaro from
0:15Iron Talks, a great podcast. Hey Felipe
0:18, how are you? Welcome.
0:19All good, all good? Are you doing well,
0:21Const?
0:21Everything is fine.
0:22Thanks for that.
0:23Well, let's get into it. We hosted
0:24Marina Helena here yesterday. There was
0:27a bit of a row, a mix-up, during her
0:29appearance on Cestaro's show, and
0:31yesterday she gave her side, saying she
0:33stayed—and Felipe, honestly, I really
0:35couldn't watch the whole program, as
0:37I'm very short on time. I only heard
0:40clips. So, I'll pass it to you to
0:43explain, because briefly, what Marina
0:46said, which I think you must have seen,
0:48was that she spent three hours
0:50listening to your points and identified
0:53a stance very much linked to defending
0:56the State—the State as a promoter of
0:58growth and development—that at one
1:00point, she really couldn't argue
1:03anymore, and that's when the confusion
1:05happened. So I hand it over to you,
1:08thanking you for participating, so you
1:10can tell us a bit about your view of
1:12what happened.
1:13Everything is fine, Lacombe. Thanks for
1:15the privilege of being able to speak
1:18with you all. I appreciate the space.
1:21And to make things clear, Lacombe,
1:23here's the thing: Iron Talks has a
1:25different dynamic than other podcasts.
1:28I always offer counterpoints to my
1:31guests. Even if I agree with them, I
1:35make counterpoints as the audience at
1:37home, who might think differently,
1:40would do to enrich the dialogue and the
1:42debate, so that the person defends
1:44their arguments, their points, and in
1:47this way, the audience reaches an even
1:49greater understanding. In that day's
1:54case, she had already explained it. We
1:57had scheduled with Leo Siqueira and
1:59Sales, and they asked me to record with
2:01them on Sunday. Then I arrive at the
2:04studio, and there were more people,
2:07including Marina and Caut. I welcomed
2:11everyone with joy, everything was fine;
2:13I even canceled a show I was going to
2:15do later with Tagreaferro, and then we
2:17did the show together, all of us. The
2:21conversation was going very well, it
2:24was a 3-hour show, we talked about
2:26various subjects, and so, just to be
2:28clear, some things that were said by
2:31her yesterday on the show are not
2:33correct, they are not honest with the
2:36truth of what happened. So, things must
2:39be said as they are. go watch the show,
2:44because she said I spent 3 hours
2:46defending Getúlio and Putin, which is
2:49an untruth. We talked about several
2:53subjects and no, I am not a defender of
2:56Putin or Getúlio Vargas in any way.
3:01Including in the same program, she told
3:03you here that I defend dictatorship,
3:06which is again an absurdity. And on the
3:10program I tell her, Marina, you cannot
3:12say that I defend dictatorships because
3:14I don't do that. I do not defend
3:16dictatorships. What I asked her on the
3:19program was: "Didn't Brazil have
3:21interesting economic development during
3:24the time of Getúlio Vargas?" So, I was
3:29talking about the national
3:31developmentalism of the time, the
3:34political-economic model that happened
3:37back then and that there was a
3:39development of large companies in
3:42Brazil. So, it was a debate about
3:45liberalism, about Brazil, and we were
3:47talking about that. And she says at
3:50that moment: "No, you're defending
3:52dictatorship." I said: "No, I'm not
3:54defending dictatorship, I'm talking
3:55about an economic model." So, to be
3:58clear, what is the big problem, Lacombi
4:02? And this happened in a previous
4:05episode, right? Including, Consta
4:08comments here, I even talked to him,
4:11that it was the episode with the lawyer
4:15Chiquini in which, during our
4:17conversation, he was very displeased,
4:20because we were there talking about
4:23some issues regarding the 2026
4:26elections, Sales was making, along with
4:29me, a defense regarding some points of
4:33order from the time of Flávio Bolson
4:35...Bolsonaro, the displeased Chiquini,
4:38he stands up and makes accusations as
4:41if I were a PT supporter and so on, he
4:44accuses me like that, as if I were an
4:47infiltrator. But everything done there
4:51by Chiquini was something staged, it
4:54was something thought out. So much so
4:59that he, I have already explained this
5:01dozens of times, recorded that moment
5:03through his assistant inside the studio
5:05. He had his lapel microphone on and he
5:09published that moment one minute after
5:12leaving the studio. All to harm the
5:15work I do here. Why? I don't have
5:20political groups, I don't have a
5:22political party, I don't pay tolls to
5:25any group. Therefore, I seek to host
5:29all political spectrums here and I
5:32criticize everything that I understand
5:35should be criticized. It doesn't matter
5:38what the person's political spectrum is
5:40.
5:42Cestaro, let me then make a provocation
5:43, since you said that on your show you
5:45like to bring a counterpoint, right?
5:48Let me be that counterpoint today here,
5:50because many people started to accuse
5:51you of being an infiltrator in the
5:53right, right? Uh, I wanted to check in
5:56with you, a sort of ping-pong. Your
5:59opinions give you the chance to be
6:01clear in your answer now, you already
6:03said you don't defend the Russian or
6:05Putin model, for example. I, I saw you
6:08—I didn't see the whole interview,
6:09but I saw a clip right when Marina
6:11Helena was about to lose it where you
6:13said your children in Russia went to
6:15school well-dressed and learned useful
6:17things. That sounds like a defense of a
6:20model, just like Tucker Carlson started
6:22doing here in the United States, the
6:23Russian model. I think Russia is no
6:26example of anything. Putin is a
6:28dictator who laments the fall of the
6:30Soviet Union. What do you think of the
6:33Russian model? So, I'm asking, have you
6:35ever been to Russia? No,
6:37I've been to Moscow three times and
6:38worked for years and years with the
6:40Russian financial market, reading
6:41everything about their daily life. And
6:43it's no example for anything.
6:45Cool. Cool. I lived there for 17 years.
6:47You say it's not an example. It might
6:50not be an example, Consta, for a
6:53Western perspective. My goodness,
6:55thank God. It’s our perspective.
6:57The whole issue is the following. What
7:00I always say is that every location,
7:03every region or country has its culture
7:05, its particularities, its culture, and
7:08we execrate Iranian culture. Let me,
7:13let me explain it to you so you’ll
7:14understand, okay?
7:16I don't know if I'll understand.
7:17Whoever defends Russia is my enemy.
7:20Well, Consta, that's where the problem
7:23lies. When you don't understand, don't
7:26accept, you immediately label someone
7:30an adversary or an enemy, I read about
7:34the ability to understand in every
7:39place. For example, I lived there for
7:4117 years. Russia has positive and
7:43negative aspects like any place in the
7:45world.
7:45Yeah, the US also—
7:46it doesn't mean I defend the Russian
7:48model for Brazil,
7:49it means the Russian model works for
7:52the Russians.
7:53No, it doesn't work. Russians have no
7:54freedom. Listen,
7:56have you ever asked the people—
7:57there was a dictator. Yes, I’ve asked
7:58many people who aren't allowed to be
8:00asked. I lived there for 17 years.
8:01Apparently, you defend the Russian
8:03model. You speak only from what you've
8:05read in books. I speak from what I saw
8:07in practice. Yeah, you’re going to
8:11use the argument, I can only speak. So
8:14imagine you interviewing a Workers '
8:15Party supporter in Brazil. Listen for a
8:19little bit here. You listen for a
8:20little bit. And you're doing exactly
8:23what they do to you on the internet.
8:26What you are trying to do to me here.
8:29That is the difference. Do you want to
8:30hear my answer or do you want to talk?
8:32Your answer if you are clear and
8:34objective. But you will
8:35clear and objective in your pernicious,
8:38malicious question. It is impossible to
8:40answer.
8:41Let me speak just a little bit. Let me
8:42speak just a little bit. Worse in your
8:44question. Let me speak just a little
8:46bit. What Cestaro is saying, sorry if
8:48I’m mistaken, is that there are
8:51benefits generated by a dictatorship
8:53like Putin’s, but in my opinion and
8:56Consta’s, it’s not worth it because
8:59people have no freedom. You just have
9:02to look at the number of accusations.
9:05Putin is implicated because in Russia
9:06they won't carry out any investigation
9:08against him for staging an attack
9:10against his own people and blaming it
9:12on the Chechens. That’s it, a
9:15psychopath. Putin is a murderous
9:17psychopath, a terrible dictator.
9:18So we can’t defend a guy just because
9:21there are benefits. Listen, everything
9:23you just said, I don't change a thing.
9:27That is not the issue. I was talking
9:30about economic policy. The Russian
9:33economic policy is working for the
9:35Russian people. About freedom, about
9:40freedom
9:40it is not.
9:42About freedom, that is another matter.
9:45We have to understand the following. We
9:47have a worldview. They differ in many
9:51aspects, but criticisms made on one
9:53side can be made on the other in the
9:56same way. The point is the following.
9:59When you say that, for example, Putin
10:02promotes a dictatorship and restricts
10:05freedoms, that is of course
10:07criticizable; obviously we have an
10:09ideal world and a real world. In the
10:14ideal world, we want full freedom, full
10:17economy, full service. We want full
10:20dignity. But in the real world, we
10:24encounter many deformities, just as we
10:28find in countries where we say there is
10:32full freedom, as for example, sorry,
10:36I'm slow.
10:38I'm a bit slow, I'm not understanding
10:39anything you're saying. Can you start
10:41praising Maduro for the Venezuelan
10:43people too, or not? Oh, Consta, no,
10:47perhaps an economic aspect.
10:48I will, I will, I will say it again.
10:50Don't confuse me and don't do that. I
10:53am going to ask you once more because
10:55you are constantly a target of
10:57malicious people on the internet. Can I
11:00conclude? and the
11:05victimhood doesn't work with me. I am
11:07giving you the opportunity to clarify
11:10what you're thinking, damn it. I'm
11:12saying that you receive unfair attacks
11:14on the internet all the time.
11:16I'm not attacking you, I'm asking you
11:18questions. You,
11:19you are, you are being, you are being
11:22intellectually dishonest. I attack, I
11:26attack and I criticize any dictatorship
11:28. I have never defended a [ __ ]
11:31dictatorship anywhere. I am not a
11:34communist, as she said I was.
11:37She made reckless accusations about me.
11:40I wrote down exactly everything here.
11:42You seem like a sympathizer of the
11:44Russian model now. And Russia is a
11:46communist model. But let's go, people.
11:48Russia has an economy based on war. A
11:51war economy is advanced by the [garbled
11:54]. That is fake news. It doesn't work.
11:56But let's go. You talked about national
11:58development. Education in Russia is bad
11:59. You defend the model in Russia, it's
12:02bad, security is bad. You defend, you
12:04defend the national developmentalist
12:06model of Ciro Gomes, of Dilma. Do you?
12:09No, it's not Ciro Gomes's nor Dilma's.
12:11The state as a locomotive for progress.
12:13That's it. Dilma. I believe in our own
12:16hybridized national model, which is
12:18actually modern. It’s not the archaic
12:22model you’re reading in old books and
12:23thinking must be repeated exactly. The
12:27strong state you believe should exist
12:29is the same one I believe in for
12:31strategic areas where the market
12:33doesn't initially reach because the
12:35investment doesn't yield an immediate
12:37return, but it is possible to provide
12:40incentives for the private sector to
12:42arrive and have free competition
12:44afterwards. What is the difference in
12:47our thinking? So, let me—I don't
12:49believe in the state as a driver of
12:50growth and development. Neither do I,
12:52but let me be more objective so that,
12:54you know, the words don't hang loose—
12:56differences,
12:57let's try to use examples. Let's try to
12:59use exemp.
13:00Do you think Brazil needs to be
13:02inspired more by the American model or
13:03the Chinese model?
13:06Brazil doesn't have to be inspired by
13:08either the Chinese model or the
13:09American model. Brazil needs to find
13:12its own model.
13:13Okay. Is Lula a thief?
13:16Lula? Yes. He was convicted of theft in
13:20three higher courts, but unfortunately,
13:22his case was annulled and today he has
13:25a clean slate. So if I say he is a
13:28thief, I could be committing a crime
13:31in a country that no longer has freedom
13:33. Are you in favor of Moraes? I
13:35denounce the abuses of the Supreme
13:37Court on my show every other day, yes.
13:41Now, saying I defend Alexandre de
13:43Moraes, that is an immorality against
13:46me. I've said a million times,
13:49Alexandre de Moraes must be penalized,
13:52tried, because he is the biggest,
13:57biggest cause of the aberrant state of
14:01persecution we live in in Brazil. I
14:05have never heard Marina Helena speak as
14:08I do on my show Dia Sim, Dia Não,
14:10defending the January 8th people and
14:13their freedom with 139 women imprisoned
14:16sharing one toilet and one sink.
14:20I have hosted dozens of lawyers on my
14:22show multiple times to denounce the
14:25atrocities that the Supreme Court has
14:27committed.
14:28Cestaro, Marina Helena ran her entire
14:30campaign for mayor wearing a "Mora"
14:32shirt. She accused me on her show of
14:35defending Alexandre de Moraes, of being
14:37a communist, of defending censorship.
14:40All of that is a lie.
14:44Well, folks,
14:45and then it was said about me that I am
14:47a Trojan horse. I want to understand
14:50why.
14:51I will give you an example. I think
14:53that Quimpa there from Australia is an
14:54infiltrator in the right wing. A guy
14:56who defends Getúlio Vargas, Putin, and
14:59the PCO cannot be right-wing. So it is
15:02just a matter of, uh, definition here
15:04with clarity, with objectivity. Ciro
15:07Gomes is a national developmentalist,
15:09the guy is a leftist. Please, would Dr.
15:13Enéas be considered left or right wing
15:16today? Please, Constantinador.
15:18A nationalist. A nationalist.
15:21A left-wing or right-wing nationalist?
15:24With some right-wing ideas and others
15:26from the left.
15:27How would you label an infiltrator? No,
15:30I wouldn't say he is an infiltrator. I
15:31would say that
15:32Then do not say that about me, because
15:34I think exactly like Dr. Enéas.
15:35You think exactly like Dr. Enéas? It
15:37is a recommendation of
15:38I was a missionary for 17 years of my
15:40life. I am a Christian, conservative, I
15:43lived in Russia—not to sightsee, but
15:45to do missionary work, caring for
15:47orphans and hospitals. I spent my life
15:50there doing that until I returned to
15:51take care of my father. I started this
15:54show to bring awareness to people so
15:56they can start seeing and perceiving
15:58again. But I dialogue with everyone,
16:01and in every episode. It doesn't matter
16:04. I always make it clear when someone
16:06from the left sits in front of me. I am
16:08right-wing, but I make the necessary
16:10provocations, yet I do not close my
16:12eyes to the reality of the Brazilian
16:14people who need help and support. It is
16:16as simple as that. I I tend to agree on
16:19this point with an original participant
16:21of the 4x4 when we started back in 2021
16:23, which is Guilherme Fiúza, in
16:25rejecting these concepts of right and
16:27left a bit, because everything is
16:29really very, very complicated. But,
16:32look, uh, what we what we don't want is
16:34that we don't believe, there's no way
16:36around it. You are in the state that
16:38fosters growth and development, right?
16:39There are no examples in the world of
16:41that. You are, you are a guy I admire a
16:44hell of a lot. I even wrote to you
16:46inviting you to be on a program. Do you
16:48remember? We’ve talked a little
16:49before.
16:50I admire your work deeply. What you
16:53just said about left or right, if you
16:54check some of my programs, I say this
16:56repeatedly, those are outdated concepts
16:58. What happens is that in our time, if
17:01you disagree on a single thing or
17:03anything, or criticize any politician
17:06from any spectrum, you immediately
17:08belong to the other side. You are an
17:10enemy, an adversary, you are an
17:12infiltrator. And worse, I was called
17:14out on my own program for working for
17:17the Chinese CCP. I politely asked her
17:20to change what she was saying because
17:22it was a lie. She repeated something
17:24that happened on the program and even
17:26cites the lawyer's name. She accuses me
17:30of things I am not to my audience,
17:33because the moment she places me on one
17:35side or within a political group, like
17:38she did on your show saying I’m with
17:41the MBL, which I’m not, she is
17:43stripping away my professional
17:45credibility.
17:46Look at that. It really does. If I’m
17:49part of a group, if you’re with the
17:50MBL, you’re screwed, because that
17:52doesn't have credibility. Exactly. So,
17:54exactly. If I’m part of a group, if
17:56I’m part of a group, I don’t have
17:58the moral standing to criticize any
18:00other side. That’s the point. And
18:03that is what I do not accept. That was
18:05what Chiquini tried to do and that was
18:07what she did again here. This is the
18:10big issue. I have a side, I have a side
18:13, a worldview. I am a conservative. I
18:16have an economic view, as I have said,
18:20developmentalist now,
18:21but that doesn't align with
18:23conservatism, because conservatism is
18:25liberal. That story of "liberal in the
18:27economy, conservative in customs," it
18:28doesn't add up, because if you are a
18:30conservative, you are in favor of
18:31liberalism.
18:32Lacombe, let me tell you something
18:36different. These classic concepts, as
18:39much as they make perfect sense on
18:43paper, in practice, today, in Brazil
18:47today, we need to find a hybrid model
18:51that finds support for us to apply this
18:55in Brazil correctly,
18:57but we already have, uh,
19:00to this day we've seen neolib—there
19:02are already examples in the world of
19:03what works and what doesn't work. Yeah,
19:06but look, just about what I was telling
19:08you, I admire your work so much. You
19:10said left and right are outdated
19:12concepts. I agree with you.
19:14No, they aren't outdated, they are
19:15imprecise. No, not just imprecise,
19:17they're old, because everything has
19:19changed. And again, you just need to
19:22think differently. Right is less state,
19:25left is more state. That
19:27is what we call an "isentão." Usually,
19:29when someone uses that "I criticize all
19:31sides" speech, there is no perfect
19:32model. Look, usually the guy defends
19:35something with a pro-state bias, and
19:38he's usually on the left. Uh,
19:41oh, Consta, it's the same, it's the
19:43same, I'll ask you a question here. You
19:44, for example, said: "Look, you have
19:48Quim Paim as a plant, and what does
19:51Quim Paim say about you?"
19:55He just calls me a cuck. He has no
19:56argument, right? Calls me a cuck.
19:58Do you understand? My point is that
20:00everything we say, since it's on the
20:03internet, is very shallow; it all stems
20:07from personal attacks. And that is what
20:10Brazilian politics is turning into.
20:12That is a mistake. Nobody wants to sit
20:14down, talk, and confront ideas. I have
20:18never offended anyone on my channel or
20:20my show, personally, nothing, only
20:22ideas. I engage in dialogue, but
20:25unfortunately, when there is no more
20:27argumentation, some people can't take
20:29it. I asked only one single question on
20:32the show and no one answered. No one
20:35answered. I asked that question because
20:40my wife, for example, is from Tocantins
20:42, in rural Tocantins, in Itacajá,
20:44where she was born. A school only
20:49arrived there 40 years ago. There it is
20:54. Brazil is 500 years old, there are
20:56private schools in São Paulo over 200,
20:57300 years old. Why didn't a school
21:00reach Itacajá? Are you?
21:03I am in favor of the free market. See
21:05it as a solution there. The MEC is an
21:10ideological indoctrination tool. I'm
21:12out.
21:12There are areas. So let's leave
21:14everyone illiterate. There are areas
21:16where everyone is illiterate to provide
21:22support. Later, the initiative and the
21:24free market happen naturally. The
21:26American model that Consta defends all
21:28the time is exactly what is done. In
21:31the military technology sector, for
21:32example, it is the US government that
21:34funds everything initially, then the
21:36private sector competes. We need to sit
21:39down like adults to try to find a model
21:42that works for Brazil. Now, finding
21:44anyone who disagrees with right-wing or
21:47left-wing thought and attacking them
21:49personally as if that person were an
21:52infiltrator, an opponent, an enemy,
21:54either from the right or the left, to
21:57discredit a man's work, that is not
21:59dignified and it is not correct. That's
22:02all it is about. I work here every day.
22:05I record two to three shows a day,
22:08every day. And I have never defended
22:12censorship, never defended the left,
22:14never, never defended the PT, I always
22:16said that Lula has to go. He is the
22:19devil. It is time. I have never
22:22defended the left or the PT, or
22:24communism or dictatorship,
22:26or the curtailing of freedom of speech.
22:29Never, never. But I was accused of that
22:31, and that is what I think is unfair.
22:34Here I
22:35your message has been delivered. My
22:36concern, my concern now is that we gave
22:39you 15 minutes yesterday, 14 minutes
22:41and 54 seconds.
22:42I thank you, Lacombe. I thank you for
22:44the time.
22:44We already gave you more time. I
22:46appreciate the time.
22:48One last question, feel free to decline
22:50because the vote is secret, but in a
22:51possible second round, Lula and Flávio
22:53Bolsonaro, do you have,
22:56I already made it clear on my show,
22:58whoever runs against Lula, even if it's
23:00Flávio, I will campaign every other
23:02day to ensure Lula leaves. Constantino,
23:07that's what I tell you.
23:10People don't accept disagreements of
23:12ideas. The debate is shallow, and that
23:15is to our misfortune. I do not accept
23:18injustice. When they attacked you on
23:20the internet, I even said: "It's wrong,
23:22why? It's unfair to you. Just as if
23:26anyone else were treated unfairly, I
23:27will defend them." That is what I do
23:30not accept. And we have to fight for
23:31the truth always. Thank you for the
23:33time and for the
23:34Thank you very much to you.
23:36Big hug.
23:36Bye. Bye.
23:38Bye. That's it, folks. Yeah, yesterday
23:41we gave space to Marina Helen

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This page contains the full transcript of "SESTARO VOCÊ É DE ESQUERDA..." TRETA no DEBATE. by Brasil Melhorado, generated from the public captions YouTube serves with the video. The transcript has 3,738 words across 589 segments, with the original timestamps preserved so you can click any line to jump to that moment in the embedded player.

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