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YouTube2Text → Transcripts → Series 2 Episode 2: Creative Careers, AI and What Employers Want | Tobias Donohoe, TPD Creative

Series 2 Episode 2: Creative Careers, AI and What Employers Want | Tobias Donohoe, TPD Creative — Transcript

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0:04Hello and welcome to the Creative
0:05Careers and AI podcast. Today's guest is
0:08Tobias Donaho, founder and director of
0:10TPD Creative, a Kentbased digital
0:13marketing and design agency. Tobias
0:15originally trained in engineering and
0:17industrial design before launching TPD
0:19Creative in 2019.
0:21>> [music]
0:22>> Since then, he has grown the company
0:23from a oneperson operation into a
0:25creative agency working across branding,
0:27website design, [music] social media,
0:29graphic design, CGI visualization, and
0:32marketing strategy. With a background
0:34that bridges technical and creative
0:36disciplines, Tobias has a unique
0:37perspective on how digital skills
0:39evolve, what businesses look for in
0:41creative talent, and how emerging
0:43technologies, including AI, are
0:45reshaping creative work. Tobias, thanks
0:47for coming in today. Great to see you.
0:49>> Great to see you. Thank you for having
0:50me. So, I thought I'd start off by
0:52asking you a little bit about how you
0:53got started in the industry, kind of
0:55your your starting point in your
0:58creative journey. How did you get
1:00started?
1:00>> Yeah. So,
1:03a lot of this is hindsight. Obviously, I
1:05didn't ever think of it as a starting a
1:08career. Um, but I I was I was interested
1:10in art growing up quite a bit and and
1:14computers, as my parents would say, just
1:16computers. It was just anything on a
1:18computer was old computers. Um, so early
1:22days I would like assist with things
1:25like logo design. Very early on my dad
1:28was a builder. Um, so he had a property
1:30maintenance company. So I remember that
1:32was probably the first it must be the
1:34first logo I ever done on paint.
1:36>> Oh wow.
1:37>> How old were you when you did that?
1:39>> Must been well maybe secondary school.
1:42Early secondary school. Like I I
1:44genuinely remember doing it on a little
1:46laptop in the front room cuz my dad
1:48wanted to order um business cards and he
1:52didn't have anything to go on it and I
1:53think back in the day like builders you
1:55just have your name on the side of a
1:56van, wouldn't you?
1:57>> But it was like I said I I said I think
1:59I can do something on paint.
2:00>> Nice.
2:00>> So I made it on uh Yeah. So I made it
2:03just just literally the the
2:04stereotypical roof over his MJD his
2:07initials. Um but yeah, so that that like
2:11if you really start that's probably
2:12where it was and then over the years I I
2:15got interested in more things like
2:17graphic design and web design. Um but it
2:20was more more of just an interest thing
2:22and when things popped up I would I
2:25would help people basically. Um so then
2:28I yeah like you said I I originally done
2:32a course in um engineering uh and then
2:36got introduced to CAD loved CAD.
2:39>> Nice.
2:39>> So then done a course in computer Aed
2:42design and 3D animation.
2:44>> That course got cancelled.
2:46>> Oh no. Whilst you were doing it.
2:47>> Yeah. So I it was so well I was doing a
2:50foundation degree. you'll know all about
2:51this, but I was doing a foundation
2:52degree and then the idea was to do a
2:54final year at Greenwich University.
2:57>> Okay.
2:57>> Um I was doing it at Canterbury. Um
3:00>> yeah.
3:01>> Uh so yeah. So but then in the second
3:05year, at the start of the second year,
3:07um they said that the final year had
3:09canceled and I was like, "Oh no."
3:11>> So yeah, I was a bit disheartened uh
3:13because that's what I thought I was
3:14doing. I thought I was getting a full
3:15degree. But then no other I couldn't
3:18really take them skills into any other
3:20course like directly. So what I tried to
3:23do was get like a transfer
3:25>> to just do the final year somewhere
3:27else. Didn't couldn't do it. So then
3:29everywhere was like two years.
3:30>> Yeah.
3:31>> So I thought if I'm doing two years I
3:32might as well do three years and just
3:34learn more learn learn something a
3:36little bit different. And then I found
3:37industrial design
3:39>> which isn't as like technical as it
3:42sounds. Like I when I when I went to the
3:45open day, I thought it was like
3:47structures and things, but it's not. No,
3:50no, not at all. Like it um tell me.
3:53Yeah. So it's it's
3:56>> I think it's it was wrongly worded to be
3:58honest, but it's it's design within
4:00industry. So
4:02>> Oh, okay.
4:03>> So it was a lot more like product
4:04design. No. Yeah, it was a lot more like
4:06product design and um like almost like
4:09emotional design like like like um the
4:12psychology of design and um like the
4:15history of design as in like
4:18>> so like Steve Jobs was an industrial
4:20design designer like that like that
4:23that's the kind of
4:24>> Okay.
4:24>> Yeah. And um it was very arty as well
4:28like very creative very arty. I remember
4:30once what we we was in a room we had to
4:33just paint the floor. Oh wow.
4:34>> Chuck paint on the floor and then then
4:36you take pictures of that and then you
4:37have to make a product or something from
4:39it.
4:40>> Oh wow.
4:40>> Uh yeah. Use that as your idea um to
4:44create something. Um so yes so then I
4:46studied that and in in that course I
4:47learned um more graphic design more
4:53psychology um and yeah and but then was
4:58still developing CAD uh because you
5:00would make your product in CAD and stuff
5:02like that.
5:04So like one of my projects was like a
5:05like a hotel. I'd done a crazy design
5:09for a hotel. So it was still doing that.
5:12Um but I was touching all these other
5:13things as well. And then you you'd make
5:15your website as well.
5:16>> Mhm.
5:17>> So yeah. So I done all that and at the
5:18same time was helping people out like I
5:20said um and like on weekends and stuff
5:23like that like I knew people that needed
5:26websites. Uh
5:28>> so you kind of fell into freelance a
5:30little bit.
5:30>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So like during uni
5:33like I was like a little bit of
5:34freelance like but like it was a tiny
5:36bit. There was like one person that was
5:38doing and he was in construction again.
5:40Um he wanted a website.
5:43So I was making the website in
5:44Dreamweaver. Um not charging enough
5:47[laughter]
5:49>> thinking back.
5:49>> I think that's very much a student's
5:51mistake always undercharging.
5:53>> Yeah. Um and so then yeah so that
5:57carried on then uh then then I went back
6:00um to Margate. I live live in Margate
6:04and didn't go to London. I was kind of
6:07some people said like go to London and
6:08join an agency. Like I knew like what I
6:10really like doing. It was lots of
6:12different projects like it was lots of
6:13different things.
6:14>> Um so that's why people were saying like
6:16agency but I really wanted to go home as
6:18well like like I'm really close to my
6:20family and things like that. And I knew
6:22I had at the time a serious girlfriend.
6:24Now she's my wife. Um and I knew like
6:26where that was going to like have kids
6:28and stuff like that. So I wanted to be
6:30back back in Margate. Um
6:32>> so I couldn't find a job in um in
6:36>> like the ideal job.
6:37>> So I ended up coming back to
6:39construction. I um I I designed roofs.
6:42>> Oh okay.
6:43>> Uh after university. That was my my my
6:45job leaving uni. Um I designed like roof
6:48trusses. Mhm.
6:49>> So like when you see like roof trusses
6:50getting loaded on Yeah. there's like it
6:53was all the engineering and stuff like
6:54that behind that. Um
6:56>> but at the same time I was doing a bit
6:58of freelance on the weekends and stuff
7:00like that.
7:02>> Went went traveling um with my wife
7:05saved up traveling came back. Um then I
7:08then I had an accident. I I hit my head
7:11really really hard. uh like brain
7:13hemorrhage, brain, fractured skull
7:16>> uh and then was back at the job and then
7:18but I was still doing these little
7:19things on the side and then that was
7:20like the real wakeup moment. I was like
7:22I'm really want to pursue that.
7:24>> So that's when so that was seven and a
7:26half years ago now
7:27>> when I kind of said I'm not going to do
7:28that anymore. I'm going to do this and
7:31then at the start it was just freelance.
7:33It was it was just trying to get clients
7:36and do the work I was passionate about.
7:39Um but then yeah it grew as you said in
7:42the intro it grew and um
7:44>> yeah now we've got a proper agency and
7:48yeah nice office and then everything is
7:50yeah saved a long time to get there but
7:53it was never the plan. That's the
7:54problem and I think that's the problem
7:55with creative industries is you're doing
7:58you're only doing it because you're
7:59doing what you want to do and like
8:00that's that's enough you know
8:02>> which I think is a good thing.
8:03>> I think oh it's a fantastic thing.
8:04There's lots of people out there that
8:05are miserable cuz they're not doing the
8:06right doing anything that gives feeds
8:09them at all.
8:10>> So, it's a fantastic thing, but it was
8:12never started. I I never started
8:14thinking I'm going to have an agency. It
8:15was just I got really busy and I thought
8:17I need to I need to think about hiring
8:19someone and that's that's how it
8:21happened.
8:21>> That's excellent. So, how big is the
8:22agency now? How many people do you work
8:23with?
8:24>> So, we got four of us and two interns.
8:27>> Okay.
8:28>> Um at the moment. Um Yeah. And then we
8:30do work with like freelancers and stuff
8:32like that. um as and when needed. Um
8:36>> yeah,
8:36>> that's excellent. Um so what sort of
8:39work do you do specifically? Do you uh
8:41focus on um different areas or do you
8:45>> So do clients ask for?
8:47>> So we got so we got a lot of services
8:49really like we're not a web designer,
8:52we're not a branding company. Um we do
8:54we do branding, website, um social media
8:58management as well.
9:00Um, and we we we tend to like we offer
9:03almost like the whole package of
9:06marketing like especially for mediumsiz
9:08businesses. It's like all the marketing
9:09I need.
9:10>> So what we end up doing with a lot of
9:13our clients
9:14>> is we move on to like kind of like a
9:17monthly kind of agreement where we we're
9:20covering it all. So if they need updates
9:22to their website, they come to us. If
9:24they need a new flyer for an event, they
9:26come to us. if they need a brochure. And
9:28then we just kind of we structure what
9:31we're doing by priority.
9:33>> Um and each month they they get
9:35deliverables. They get they get things
9:37and then social media that has to be
9:38like a monthly thing anyway because it
9:40has to be constant. Um
9:41>> but yeah, so then clients tend to yeah
9:45pick and pick and choose what they want
9:46when they need it and we work together,
9:48have a bit of a strategy
9:49>> of what we're doing and yeah chip away
9:53chip away at everything. Yeah. Have you
9:55noticed client what clients are asking
9:57for has changed over the time that you
9:59started in 2019?
10:01>> Um, [sighs and gasps]
10:03has it changed? So, I think a lot of
10:07things that were out of their remit of
10:11understanding and now within their remit
10:13of understanding. So, so for social
10:17media, like when I first started, I only
10:19actually wanted to do the the artwork
10:21and uh but then they were like, can you
10:23post it?
10:24>> So, then I ended up charging people for
10:26posting it.
10:28>> And then it's almost like it's got to a
10:29point now cuz they didn't understand
10:30social media at all. Like they they
10:32weren't even on it. Um but now it's got
10:34to a point where that's just taken for
10:36granted. They're like of if you're doing
10:38social media, of course you're posting
10:39it. Um
10:40>> Okay. Yeah.
10:41>> And I think Yeah. like where where
10:43everything's a little bit more
10:44accessible and I know we'll get on to AI
10:46at some point but um where everything's
10:48a bit more accessible things seem quite
10:52quite a bit easier um
10:54>> so there's a lot of things which are
10:56just expected now um
10:59>> but when they're asking if that answers
11:00your question
11:01>> I think it does
11:03>> but that's yeah I'd say that's the main
11:04that's the main change in the seven and
11:06a half years
11:07>> but at the same time our our company's
11:09changed
11:10>> so we we're dealing with bigger clients
11:13now. Like at the start we were dealing
11:15with like
11:16>> Joe blogs down the road that does a bit
11:18of plastering and he wants a logo. But
11:21now we're dealing with bigger companies
11:23there. There's more of an understanding.
11:25So I think where we're growing it's hard
11:27to tell
11:28>> because yeah, we're not we're not
11:30dealing with the same people anymore.
11:31>> Okay. Interesting. Um so yeah, let's
11:34talk about AI. [laughter] So you start
11:36up. Um how is it affecting your
11:39day-to-day work to start with? So
11:42>> it must be about 3 years ago now we kind
11:45of got told about chat GPT and uh
11:49>> and I remember like seeing what it could
11:51do and at that time it was all just
11:52text. Uh but seeing what it could do I
11:56was I I remember having the conversation
11:58in the office. I was like we even need
12:00to like embrace this. It's like
12:03Pandora's box has been opened. Like
12:05there was a lot of push back with design
12:07and things like that. Um, I was like, I
12:09think we need to either embrace this for
12:11what it is and learn it and learn how to
12:13use it. Um, or or we we're not going to
12:17have any advantage going forward. Do you
12:19know what I mean? Cuz we just get left
12:21behind um in a way.
12:24>> Um,
12:25so yeah, how it's affecting us like we
12:28we're using it a lot um but only in
12:32areas that we feel it's suitable. So,
12:35for instance, when we're running social
12:36media, we will never say create a social
12:39media post artwork cuz [clears throat]
12:41it all looks the same.
12:42>> Yeah. It's so obvious, isn't it?
12:44>> Exactly. Exactly. So, but what we might
12:47do um for like a little bit of fun or
12:50something, we might get it to create an
12:51image which we then use uh in the
12:55artwork. So, it's like understanding
12:57what to use it for, I think. Yeah.
12:59>> Um, but yeah, we use it for all sorts
13:02like even in just running a business
13:05like for for advice in like
13:07>> like legal advice and like obviously
13:09you're not going to take it for grant
13:10like not big stuff you're not going to
13:12but like just like understand like the
13:14stuff you used to Google um
13:16>> you now just ask chat PT um
13:19>> and and and do you find it's helpful for
13:21things like concept designs and
13:22brainstorming when you're starting new
13:24projects?
13:24>> Yeah. Well, you but then it's you've got
13:27to understand that you're talking to
13:29something that's going to agree with
13:30everything you say.
13:31>> That's [laughter] it. Yeah.
13:32>> So, you can't be blindly like just
13:36accepting it. Like we've had people come
13:38to us before that are like we've got
13:39this business idea and then like
13:43it's fine, but they've only gone down
13:46this route and like investing what
13:47they're investing in it, their time,
13:49maybe their money and their effort
13:51because Chach told them it was a good
13:52idea.
13:54But it's it's always so you got to tread
13:56lightly.
13:57>> Excellent. You really good idea
14:00actually.
14:00>> Exactly.
14:01>> That's amazing. Why why didn't you think
14:02of that before? [laughter]
14:04>> Yeah. Um so yeah, you got to remember
14:07like what you're speaking to. Um but
14:10yeah, four concepts, ideas. Yeah, it's a
14:12good like sounding board and it's good
14:14for me. For me personally, it's good for
14:16memory. Like
14:17>> I feel like I don't have to remember
14:18things so much
14:20>> like that. like just because I can chuck
14:23it in there
14:24>> and then it's stored. Do you know what I
14:26mean? And I can return to it when I want
14:28to. Um it's almost like when you got a
14:30shelf an idea
14:31>> like you can just open up a new project,
14:33put that idea in there and if I if I
14:35want to come back to it, it's all there.
14:36>> Nice. [laughter]
14:37A little filing system.
14:40Do you just use chat GPG? Do you use any
14:42other AI?
14:43>> Clawed. Um
14:44>> we use like it's within the software now
14:47um a lot. So it's in like Photoshop. We
14:50use that quite a bit as well because
14:52like say a client so say we're doing
14:54social media or website um or brochures
14:57even if someone's sent an image and like
15:00you've we've designed this lovely layout
15:02and we want the image to go in there and
15:04then they've sent it and it's just I
15:05don't know portrait you're like wish
15:07that was landscape. So we use that quite
15:09a bit where you just it just expand
15:11expanding the background of an image
15:12like we could have done it before but we
15:14probably wouldn't have gone through the
15:16effort of making it look professional
15:19and like worthy whereas if it's like a
15:21blurry background sometimes you just
15:23need to extend that. Um
15:25>> yeah we do
15:26>> I think some of those tools are great.
15:27I' I've used the expand fill and and
15:30>> we tested out the other day Illustrator
15:32with vectors the round table. Have you
15:34seen that?
15:34>> I don't know.
15:35>> Ah that's a great one. So, so if you had
15:38a flat, if you had that bottle um as a
15:41vector, as a 2D vector,
15:43>> you can then do round table. Um so then
15:45you rotate it. So it's good with like
15:47characters as well. So like if you got a
15:49character pointing that way, but you
15:51want it to see the back of it, you can
15:53rotate it. Very cool.
15:54>> Oh, I did hear them that was coming out.
15:56>> It's on the beta versions. So like your
15:59Illustrator beta and um and Photoshop
16:01beta at the moment.
16:02>> Yeah. And um it's um cuz you do 3D as
16:05well, don't you? 3D visualization.
16:07>> Yeah. So that's still again that's um
16:10that that's impacted um but it's only
16:12certain areas. So
16:14>> so if someone wants a hyperrealistic
16:18visualization of exactly what they're
16:19going to build, then the only way is to
16:22build it in something like Unreal Engine
16:25or we used to use 3ds Max. Um because
16:28then you're you pinpoint precision like
16:30you're taking an architect's drawing and
16:31you're like it's it's the exact
16:33representation.
16:34Um but for things like interior CGIs
16:37like we're seeing not not many people
16:39are asking for that anymore because you
16:40can take a picture and like some we we
16:43used to have people come to us just
16:44because they wanted to visualize what
16:46their kitchen was going to look like or
16:48something like that or visualize. Oh
16:50yeah. And then you can just you can just
16:51get you can just get AI to do that now
16:53which is I think it's fine. It's like
16:55everything progresses.
16:56>> That's it. So, so do you you said you
16:58don't use 3ds Max anymore? So, I come
17:00from a 3D animation. So, I'm just
17:02interested kind of what software.
17:04>> Yeah. So, our guys are using um Unreal
17:06Engine.
17:06>> Okay. So, Unreal for most.
17:08>> Yeah. Yeah. For most just because 3ds
17:10Max was 3ds Max was what I used. So,
17:12when I started that's what I used.
17:15>> Um but the rendering time like like it
17:17just blocks up your Unreal Engine once
17:20you've built it. It takes longer to
17:21build
17:22>> but once it's built like it can shoot
17:24out renders in like 5 minutes. Nice.
17:27>> Yeah.
17:27>> Yeah. I I was a Mayer, but then I worked
17:30um 3ds Max. I I love Maya. I think May's
17:33my favorite.
17:33>> Yeah. I never I never used it. I I was
17:35always 3ds Max. I think in university we
17:37got told we can use whatever we want.
17:39But I got told that Toy Story was made
17:40in 3ds Max. So that's why I used 3ds
17:43Max.
17:44>> Good job. [laughter]
17:46I think that's why I went into 3D
17:47animation. Toy Story. It's got a lot to
17:48answer for, isn't it?
17:49>> I went I went to watch it with my son.
17:52Oh, it's unbelievable.
17:53>> So good. I was choked up at the end. It
17:55was so good. [laughter]
17:56>> Yeah.
17:56>> Anyway, we digress a little bit. I think
17:59uh let's go back into um how AI has
18:03changed your maybe your client
18:05expectations when they ask do do they
18:07ask you how you could use AI or do they
18:10expect you to use AI?
18:11>> But then it's like I think it's
18:13constantly changing because I remember
18:16when I when I worked when I worked as an
18:18intern um somewhere the the the boss
18:21didn't really understand Photoshop. So,
18:23so you take pictures and he's like, I
18:25just take picture, photoshop it. So,
18:26that was his expectation of Photoshop.
18:28That was way beyond AI. But now it's
18:30like, yeah, the expectation sometimes
18:32you get sent stuff and they're like, you
18:34don't even get sent you get an idea. And
18:36like I had it yesterday, a client
18:38thinking about this new idea for his
18:40business. Can you get that? Can you get
18:42that get that out to AI? And you're kind
18:44of like, you could have prompted this
18:46like with the design. There's no design
18:49work here. It's um
18:51>> so yeah, I think people are just
18:53expecting things much easier.
18:56>> Um and it's also just a level of
18:58understanding of what what people are
19:00asking for cuz obviously AI especially
19:03in image generation it can look
19:05fantastic
19:06>> and then you say can you move that
19:08bottle over there or whatever and it
19:11just all goes kaput. You can't like it
19:13doesn't understand what you're saying.
19:14Um,
19:16>> but if you had done it the correct way,
19:17like I don't know if again if it was a
19:19bottle, um, and you taken a nice picture
19:21of it
19:22>> and you wanted to move it, you would
19:24just move it physically and take another
19:25picture be done. But then, yeah.
19:28>> So, is it actually making life harder
19:30for you if you if the clients do want
19:32you to use AI, but you'd prefer to use
19:35traditional ways?
19:36>> I think it's
19:38much I think just everything progresses.
19:42um like when AI when when when when it
19:46started get becoming much more common
19:47knowledge a lot of people spoke to me
19:49and they was like are you worried about
19:50it stealing your job
19:52>> um and things like that
19:54>> but the what what I what I've said to
19:57people in the past is like the software
20:00we use has had so many upgrades right so
20:03like so if you're using Photoshop it's
20:05not the Photoshop it was 10 years ago
20:07the 3D software things like that they've
20:09all had loads and loads with updates to
20:12make things easier and simpler, but no
20:15one's turned around to you and said,
20:16"Oh, that 3ds Max update, do you feel
20:19like that's going to take your job?"
20:20>> Because they don't understand it. But AI
20:22is just everywhere. So I think when
20:24people are asking that genuinely what I
20:26think is I think or a lot of them I
20:28think I think you got to be more worried
20:30about it taking your job because like
20:31like if you're talking to like a
20:32solicitor or a lawyer and stuff like
20:34that
20:35>> it's much m much more useful at finding
20:38law
20:40>> than it is at generating like we like
20:43we've had these updates like I've lived
20:44with this like everything I learn
20:47>> you only learn it for like two years and
20:48you have to learn something else like
20:50that's the design using software
20:52continuously.
20:53>> Yeah, it's it's continuous. But like
20:54something like law like people have had
20:56to research and then now all of a sudden
20:58that can do that. Like I feel like
21:00that's the bigger change personally. I
21:03think it's things like that. And um
21:05>> people using it for like you probably
21:09>> oh back in the day obviously the AI
21:11didn't change this cuz other systems did
21:13but you would have paid someone just to
21:14send out emails all day and click email
21:17email and then you don't have to do that
21:19like them. a lot of them jobs, but the
21:22the higher paid stuff I I I think yeah,
21:24things like lawyers and solicitors, uh,
21:26they're going to have a much bigger
21:28impact than
21:29>> interesting
21:29>> than us humble designers.
21:31>> Yeah. Well, that's that's really good
21:32for uh creative uh students or creative
21:36professionals listening, I think. No,
21:38but I get it because like I don't know
21:40if I'm just more used to it, but like I
21:42get it because we have like staff and um
21:45who have like studied something and
21:47they've studied this for years and then
21:49all of a sudden that like something can
21:51do it in minutes.
21:52>> Yeah.
21:52>> But I don't know if I'm just more used
21:54to it because like like I said, every
21:56single design software
21:58>> like I I can see the longer term like
22:00I've been doing this for like
22:02>> like Photoshop and Illustrator I've been
22:04using probably for 15 to 20 years. I
22:07understand that it's not the same thing
22:10anymore. Like everything everything you
22:12learn is I'm not saying it's wasted
22:14learning but
22:15>> it's development it's a foundation isn't
22:17it that you kind of build on.
22:19>> Yeah.
22:20>> But in even you say Photoshop because I
22:23remember teaching generative fill in
22:25Photoshop years ago. [laughter]
22:27>> Yeah.
22:27>> It's it's it sneaked in but it wasn't
22:30called AI at the time. It's just called,
22:31oh, this is
22:32>> a lot of these systems weren't called AI
22:34before, but now you just blank
22:36statement. Oh, that's AI.
22:39>> That's really good. Um, so what what
22:41advice would you give creatives who
22:42worried that AI might replace some of
22:44the work that they're currently training
22:46for?
22:46>> Um,
22:48>> so kind of those entry level roles which
22:50might be the repetitive roles.
22:52>> I think maybe remember that it's a tool
22:55like as in it is just a tool and it's
22:58it's no never going to replace like your
22:59brain. So like double down on what you
23:03know and your perspective of things.
23:05Like I feel like that's going to be a
23:06lot more valuable than um what tools you
23:10can use. Um and as like creatives
23:14like they tend to think more outside the
23:16box and think of things that people that
23:19are stuck in the industry or stuck doing
23:21the task
23:23they they think a little bit different.
23:24Yeah.
23:25>> So, like double down on that, I think
23:27I'd say, and show that you're you're an
23:30expert of
23:31>> your own fault almost.
23:34And that can never be replaced hopefully
23:36>> cuz [laughter] human thinking, human
23:38creativity is it's unique. It's
23:40original, isn't it? And that's never
23:41going to be.
23:41>> And also like there's going to be
23:43creative ways. I know it sounds silly,
23:44but there's creative ways of using AI.
23:46So, the other day we had it. Um, so I
23:49know a guy who I need to tell you about
23:52to have on here who's an AI expert. So
23:54like his his his um his job is literally
23:57AI. Um he runs a company and he finds
24:01ways of using AI within businesses and
24:04things like that. Um but I I was messing
24:07around with something and I got um Chat
24:08GPT to create gifts for me. Okay.
24:11>> And and I texted to him. I was like,
24:12"Look at this. Look at this. This is
24:13great." And he created loads of them cuz
24:15it was like for it was actually for a
24:17mail out. Um so it had like our logo
24:20coming and then someone else's logo
24:21coming, but it done like hundreds of
24:22them.
24:23>> Oh wow. Uh, and he was like, I never
24:25knew AI could create gifts. I never knew
24:28Chachi fat could create gifts gifts.
24:30>> And I was like, really? But he he
24:32studies this stuff. Like he lives it,
24:34but then that's just a
24:36>> creative way of using it. People
24:38probably don't realize. Um, so yeah. So
24:40there's going to be that approach. It's
24:42you just using your mind and your
24:43perspective
24:44>> over just saying I'm good at this tool.
24:46like that. Not you don't get a job as a
24:48creative designer, a graphic designer by
24:52saying I'm good at Photoshop. Yeah,
24:54that's a requment for a lot of the job
24:56roles, but they're not hiring you
24:57because you can use the tool. They're
24:59hiring you how you use the tool.
25:01>> Um so yeah, that's that's that's the
25:03advice. Do you see a gap between what
25:05students are taught and when they come
25:08to you um in terms of what you need a
25:12student um to do or a new employer to
25:15come in? Is is there think there which
25:18is missing?
25:19>> Yeah, I think I think it would be more
25:20so in other industries to be honest cuz
25:23like if someone like like I said we've
25:24got we've got interns at the moment. Um
25:27and I'm not really looking for what they
25:29can do. I'm looking at more at their the
25:33way they they can hold themselves and
25:36the way they act.
25:38Um,
25:40but like universities aren't really
25:42there to teach that. I don't know. It's
25:44a tricky one. Um,
25:46>> like universities aren't there to teach
25:47common sense, but like it feels like
25:50there's a lot less common sense in like
25:52certain areas and stuff like that. But
25:56yeah, I I guess there would be there
25:58would be a gap maybe in um in like the
26:05like realist realism of like it's a
26:09business and like you need to be paid
26:11and like in order to be paid and for the
26:14business to survive things need to be
26:17done within a certain time frame. Uh I
26:19think sometimes that's that's that's
26:21maybe lost in my experience. So like, so
26:24like just cuz when you're in university,
26:26I I loved it in university because I
26:28spend as much as time I want cuz I got a
26:30project and I've got to give it in. But
26:31at the end of the day, when you're in a
26:33business and if you if you sell a logo,
26:36whether you sell it for £50, £500,
26:39£5,000, £50,000 or a million pound,
26:42there's still like a limit of how much
26:44time, effort, and resources you should
26:46spend on it. Um, and as creative, you
26:50want to just spend as long as possible.
26:53Um, I guess, yeah, that that's maybe
26:55something that's that's missing a little
26:57bit.
26:57>> Okay, that's interesting. Is there
26:59anything that students could do uh to
27:01help their chances of getting employment
27:04when because it's obviously a very
27:06competitive time for students when they
27:08they graduate from us and they're
27:10looking for employment. Is there
27:11anything they can do which will make
27:13stand out? So I I like I said I told you
27:15my story and I started the business and
27:20when I started it was more freelance. Um
27:23but I was in it for 5 years before I
27:26realized there was a thing called
27:27networking.
27:28>> Ah [laughter]
27:31>> um and then since then I've I've been I
27:33had a very prolific year where I just
27:36kind of dipped my toes in all of it
27:37because I was just trying to understand
27:38what this thing was. Um, and I think
27:42that that's that's that's that g that
27:44would have given me a massive leg up at
27:46the start if I'd known that I can go to
27:49these breakfasts and there's just
27:51business owners there. like even to me
27:54even 5 years in working when I went to
27:56some of these and I saw these people
27:58that I knew like ran big businesses I
28:00was like I can't believe I'm here
28:02[laughter] like I've got used to it now
28:04a lot more but um
28:06>> yeah it's just knowing that them kind of
28:08things like you don't know what you
28:09don't know and like I didn't know that I
28:11didn't know that existed until someone
28:13invited me to one
28:14>> and I was like oh this is this is a
28:15thing like this is and yeah like growing
28:18your network and
28:21it doesn't have to like cold calls, cold
28:24emails, but maybe trying to get yourself
28:26in some of them rooms like there's
28:28there's like the Kent in Victor Chamber
28:29and I know like the I've been to one
28:31here. There was something here um last
28:34year ABC is it called?
28:36>> Yeah, I think. Yeah, there was
28:37something.
28:37>> Yeah. and like just like pling along to
28:40that like when you're when you're a uni
28:42student you like sometimes you've got a
28:43lot of time on your hands and like it
28:45wouldn't hurt to just literally just
28:47walk in that room
28:48>> and just grab a coffee and say I'm a
28:50student.
28:51>> So have you noticed any changes in the
28:53entry- level jobs in terms of what the
28:56students are being offered when they're
28:58coming out after graduation? Um
29:02I don't know if this answers like what I
29:04have seen in changes is um and it goes
29:07back to what I said at the start is
29:08expectation. Um but I don't think that's
29:11a I don't think that's the company's
29:13issue. Um I think it's like a I think
29:17it's like a government issue. I think I
29:20think minimum like minimum wage has had
29:23to go up so high.
29:24>> Yes. that obviously as a business to run
29:26a business
29:28you you you used to pay minimum wage
29:32would be really quite low. So, so your
29:34entry level jobs could afford to not
29:36really do not really bring too much
29:39value, just bring a little bit of value
29:40to the business.
29:41>> But where like minimum wage gone up, I'm
29:43not saying that it doesn't have to go up
29:45cuz like cost of living's going up, so
29:46it all has to go up.
29:48>> But you've got what you've got now is
29:50you've got people who have been in their
29:52jobs for 20 years and they've had their
29:55in certain companies. Obviously, every
29:57company is different, but you've got
29:58people that have been in their company
30:00for 20 years and their salaries
30:01gradually gone up.
30:03But then now minimum wage has gone up so
30:06far that the company is paying the entry
30:09level really close to the person that's
30:12been there 20 years. Yeah.
30:13>> So what they they need is for the entry
30:16level to bring value from like day one
30:19like like it's almost like people
30:21certain business I'm not I'm not saying
30:22all business obviously like bigger
30:24businesses can probably afford to
30:27>> have a training program and can afford
30:29to have someone come in and not bring
30:31value until like year two.
30:33>> Um but the the mediumsiz businesses you
30:37really kind of need to see that value
30:39like
30:39>> straight away really
30:40>> almost instantly. Um, so then and that's
30:43not fair on the the students that are
30:47finished because obviously they want to
30:50get experience
30:52>> but the employers might as well hire
30:54someone or like they might as well hire
30:57for someone for a pound an hour extra
31:00>> who's got loads of experience.
31:02>> Exactly.
31:02>> Yeah. So it's like it's tough. It is it
31:04is tough. Um but yeah, I think that's
31:07the major change in entry level jobs is
31:10is is the expectation.
31:12>> So so students would need to come in
31:14with a really strong portfolio of work.
31:17What what [clears throat] are you
31:17looking for and to be able to show
31:19coming in?
31:20>> Um
31:22so
31:24it's it's the ability to create things
31:29that will benefit our business. And like
31:31I said, we do we do a lot of things. Um,
31:34so to say it's web design, I I want to
31:37see like a couple of websites. Um, like
31:39you can't be taking someone on like we
31:42have got like the interns at the T-
31:43levels. So they're they're coming in and
31:45there's an understanding there that they
31:47they can't they're not at that level.
31:49There's but there's an understanding
31:50there. Um, but if someone was coming in
31:52as an entry level like now, but only
31:55like four years ago, I hired someone and
31:58they had only done one website and it
32:01was on a system that we don't even use,
32:03but only four years ago.
32:05>> Mhm.
32:06>> It was it was lower cost to bring
32:08someone in.
32:09>> That's it, isn't it?
32:10>> Um, so like now I'd probably Yeah. If it
32:12was website, I'd like to see like a
32:14couple of websites they've built.
32:16>> And when you're saying built, you're not
32:17talking Wix websites.
32:19No, I'm talking like a word a WordPress
32:21website. Um, yeah, I'd be But that's
32:24just because us as a company. Um, yeah,
32:27I'd want to see like a couple of
32:28WordPress websites which have a couple
32:31of functions on it and
32:34>> maybe try and press like like show me
32:36something that I'll go, "Oh, wow." Like,
32:38you know what I mean? Yeah.
32:39>> And but then more so the like I said
32:42about the the the personable skills like
32:46>> being open, being being um being able to
32:50talk to people, being able to talk to
32:51me, um like that's a massive part of it
32:54because like
32:56>> even if they fell a little bit short on
32:57the the technical side, if they show
33:00that they they're willing to learn and I
33:03I'll get a good vibe that like I think
33:05they're going to really like try,
33:07>> then that's that that's worth it in gold
33:09because then you can train them to
33:11>> to get to that level.
33:13>> And because your business is um sorry I
33:15said we'll wrap up in a minute going on
33:17a different tangent. Uh because your
33:19business you do do lots of different
33:20areas. So students who have experience
33:23across a broad range of creative skills.
33:26>> Yeah. That would be likeful. Yeah. But
33:28they're like unicorns.
33:29>> Are they [laughter] really?
33:30>> Yeah. Yeah. No. So So the way we're set
33:33up at the moment, we have like a web
33:34designer. We have Jack the digital
33:36designer. So did Jack doesn't do
33:38anything to do with web.
33:39>> Oh, interesting. Okay.
33:40>> Like at all.
33:42>> But like it's all like I I know it all.
33:44So that's why I can oversee it all and
33:45that's how it that's how it works. But I
33:48think even our business is a sign almost
33:50like a sign of the times because
33:52>> there's been like web design agencies
33:56around me that have kind of like failed
33:58and like gone under. Um, and I think our
34:02greatest benefit has been that we've
34:04been able to offer everything at quite a
34:06high standard, quite a high um level of
34:10professionalism um and totally tailored
34:13um from the start. Um
34:16>> so the business can come to you and go
34:17this is what we need and it's a broad
34:19thing.
34:19>> Yeah. We we just we just work we just
34:22>> we just completing working with a client
34:24and he said cuz he needed branding
34:28website but then he also needed CGIs cuz
34:31and like you don't get that often but he
34:34was like when I saw your your toolbox he
34:36said it was a no-brainer like I had to
34:38come to you. [laughter]
34:40>> That's I think other companies
34:42listening.
34:42>> Yeah. Yeah. Don't do CGI but but then
34:45that's what I mean. CGIs are like that's
34:48>> that's going to change with with AI
34:50massively the CGI like that's a massive
34:52one. Um like I said the intern interiors
34:54have dropped off.
34:56>> Um we don't get as many exteriors but
34:59then we also do 3D models. I don't know
35:00if you saw that. Um but then that's a
35:02good thing that AI can never replace.
35:04Yes.
35:05>> Because AI is never going to be able to
35:06produce something physical um
35:09>> to showcase your work. Um
35:11>> that's pretty cool, isn't it?
35:12>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. you you got to be very
35:15adaptive. Um
35:18like like going back to like physical
35:20and like the reason that's that's going
35:24to be popular going forward like you're
35:26going to like with AI coming in you as a
35:28creative I think you need to be very
35:29adaptive.
35:30>> Yes. um and be able to like I sounds
35:33like cliche but like roll with the
35:34punches and it's like
35:36>> like I said going back to AI when when
35:38chat came into the office and I was like
35:40Pandora's box is open like no one's
35:42putting no one's turning this off like
35:44it's only going to do more and more and
35:46more.
35:47>> Um so you just got to try and find your
35:49avenue to get around it.
35:51>> Excellent. Fantastic. So to wrap up, one
35:53last question to wrap up.
35:55>> Um
35:56>> so if you were starting your career
35:57again, if if you were starting
36:00>> uh to think about uh where you were
36:02going to go um in your creative journey
36:05um
36:06>> where AI tools are obviously so it's
36:09very different now to when it was when
36:10you started out. What would you focus on
36:13learning? What would be kind of your
36:15with your experience that you've got
36:16now? If you would to talk to your kind
36:18of um uh back to the future kind of self
36:23>> younger self here now.
36:24>> Yeah. Um
36:25>> what advice would you give?
36:27>> I don't know cuz I I still love that
36:29I've followed my passion and I still
36:31love my job and I love what I do and I
36:33think that's a massive part of it. So
36:38like don't jeopardize that just because
36:40there's a risk that it might be taken
36:43because it might just change like your
36:45approach might just have to change. Um
36:48but yeah, starting out
36:52I think I if I was to start a work like
36:55start from scratch again, I think I
36:58would have there's been a lot of
37:00learning curves about like business as
37:02in like running a business like that.
37:06>> Yeah.
37:06>> HMRC and
37:08>> Oh gosh. like yeah, accounts, um,
37:12a quote, uh, agreements, [snorts] like I
37:15had none of that when I started.
37:18>> I had a little bit of I thought I had
37:19knowledge of it, but I really didn't.
37:21Um,
37:22>> so I I kind of wish I just spent maybe
37:27I know 6 months before like while I
37:30still had the other job
37:32>> start learning all that other stuff
37:33because otherwise it's just a it's a
37:35massive learning curve.
37:36>> Oh, that's really interesting. like I
37:38would I would I would have a little bit
37:39more of an inkling into business and I
37:42think that would come from if you
37:43started putting yourself in these
37:44networking rooms early on. I think you'd
37:47see things from a bit of a different
37:48perspective
37:50>> and understand that. But that's another
37:51thing um
37:53>> with AI what that helped massively with
37:55was um I understood um it helped me
38:00understand the legal side of design a
38:02lot more and I don't think I ever would
38:04have been able to. So like there's a
38:06legal side of design that
38:08>> for instance if you don't get paid then
38:10the copyright is actually still yours.
38:12So if it's still being used then
38:14>> you can take them to court.
38:15>> Yeah. Yeah. And things like that.
38:16>> I think that's a massive like that's a
38:18massive
38:19>> pro for AI is that sharing. That's why I
38:22said about lawyers like I would have had
38:23to pay a lawyer to find that out but
38:26[laughter] I didn't.
38:26>> That's great isn't it?
38:28>> Um yeah.
38:29>> Excellent. Fantastic. Yeah, that's um
38:31some some good advice as well and
38:32hopefully a good insight as well for
38:35students thinking about that. Um I'm
38:38also thinking that would be really
38:39helpful for freelance people. So
38:41[clears throat] if they weren't going
38:42straight into agencies, but if they
38:44wanted to work freelance um that's also
38:46going to be super helpful, isn't it?
38:49Do you do a lot of work experience with
38:50your
38:52>> with with in the uni? Oh, we we
38:54encourage students to um to go out and
38:57work because we have very long student
38:59holidays from May through to September.
39:01So, we encourage students to find
39:03placements or during that time or to do
39:05freelancing freelance
39:07>> and we got a creator's agency as well
39:08where the students can sign up
39:12which which gives them a lot of
39:14experience already. Um but it is things
39:18like um creating the quotes and kind of
39:20work how to work with clients and that
39:22which is really important isn't it?
39:24>> Yeah. I still get it wrong. [laughter]
39:27>> You still get it wrong.
39:28>> But it's good to know that AR can help
39:30with the legal side but obviously
39:32[laughter]
39:32>> AI is not always 100%.
39:34>> No. Yeah. I wouldn't I wouldn't have
39:35like Yeah. I wouldn't have it. It was
39:37just good for knowledge just what it was
39:41actually good for is just to say in an
39:42email like just to it wasn't anything
39:45legally standing about it. It was just
39:48Yeah, it's good to know.
39:49>> It's good to know. So, thank you so
39:51much. I really enjoyed talking to you
39:52today. It's been great. Thank you.
39:54>> Thank you.
39:55>> Join us next time for the Creative
39:56Careers and AI podcast.

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