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Series 1 Episode 4: When Jim met Sue — Transcript

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0:00welcome to Four simple questions episode
0:04four series one my name is Ian Brock and
0:08in this episode we bring
0:11together the um
0:14Professor visiting Professor Plymouth
0:16University Susan
0:19Blackmore uh skeptic author on many
0:23books uh about Consciousness our
0:26psychology and
0:28memes and nalty teacher Jim
0:32Newman and whenever I introduce these
0:35dialogues I noticed this imbalance
0:37between all the positions and
0:40achievements of the scientists compared
0:43to the nalty teachers who really don't
0:45have a context other than the function
0:48of non-duality
0:50teacher and if there is a pattern that's
0:53emerging from these dialogues maybe it's
0:55too early to say but it feels
0:58like between these two participants
1:02there is a kind of Event
1:04Horizon uh and I use those terms that
1:07term in a particular way it's as if
1:09Consciousness is like a black hole and
1:12the third person scientists are looking
1:14at it studying
1:16the um the the circumference of the
1:19black hole while the nonduality teachers
1:22of or first person scientists have
1:24fallen through the back hole and uh
1:27talking from the other side so no useful
1:30information actually passes The Event
1:33Horizon and
1:35yet there is a
1:39gravity watch this video and and see if
1:42you agree and and please subscribe
1:44because you know this series is slow
1:47moving but we have another uh dialogue
1:50coming up very soon uh so stick with
1:55us yeah what does it mean meeting I mean
1:58all it says is a meeting with you yes
2:00what's that mean that
2:03we yeah but I mean is it like a
2:06traditional Retreat where you got half
2:07hour sessions and you know blah blah and
2:10and meditation all the time and so on or
2:12is it mostly like talking like your um
2:15um YouTube things no it's the YouTube
2:17things yeah what for five days
2:21yeah we just sit there and watch the old
2:27YouTubes we were just recently in in
2:29Tennessee and they also have all this
2:31meditation and and um teaching people
2:33and stuff and they have a schedule set
2:35up for that sort of um structure and we
2:39come and we blow the thing out of the
2:41water because the people are really
2:42friendly and happy and chat with each
2:44other for hours at a time they don't
2:46feel the need to go anywhere and so
2:47their schedule because all the other
2:49people you know spiritual people are
2:50very serious they're really on a path
2:52they're going somewhere and so they
2:54don't talk to each other not very
2:55friendly so it's easy to get you know
2:57washing up done 15 minutes after the
2:59food is served with us washing up I mean
3:02people aren't even done eating till 30
3:0445 minutes cuz they can't get enough
3:06time to talk to each other feel friendly
3:08and open and it's nice so we're filming
3:12good so who wants to the
3:16first L I'm used to the um the the the
3:20rigid Retreat kind of system in fact
3:22when I first started meditating I think
3:25I was wanting to be cruel to myself I
3:28think there was a lot of
3:30um oh I've got to it's got to be painful
3:32and you know oh yeah but but I
3:34absolutely loved it because we went to
3:35this uh old Welsh farmouse um in in mid
3:39Wales no gas no electricity no phone
3:42signal well there weren't phones in
3:44those days but anyway um and sleeping in
3:46a barn with holes in the roof and you
3:49know really cold and that was all part
3:51of it and and the rigid um yeah
3:53suffering suffering is spiritually
3:56really valued to suffer as a spiritual
3:59person that's
4:01progress and you say that as though You'
4:03think it's not oh well there's no I mean
4:06suffering happens but there's no
4:07necessity there's no value to suffering
4:11don't you think though that some people
4:14need it in some way and I don't think no
4:16absolutely
4:18not so would you want to want to you
4:21can't just alleviate all suffering can
4:23you well that that's not the point the
4:25point is there's no value to
4:28it the spiritual teachers who would
4:31disagree aren't oh I know oh I think
4:34most if you call a spiritual teacher I
4:35would say 100% disagree with what I'm
4:38saying wow anyway we're meant to be
4:41answering questions we're not talking
4:42about we shouldn't enjoy ourselves we
4:45should restrict ourselves and and answer
4:47some questions the important plain water
4:49and uh no no tea or coffee or anything
4:52because that would be pleas that's right
4:54we wouldn't want to do that no well
4:57who's going to open the first I suggest
4:58you open the first
5:09does it with a certain
5:11ceremonial quietness his glasses that's
5:15right very serious yeah yeah well it
5:17means something doesn't it that's a
5:20joke um so I I'll ask you the question
5:24yeah okay who are
5:28you
5:30right excellent question the ultimate
5:32Coan I suppose you could say that
5:35is
5:40um my instant thought is there are two
5:43questions in there one is the well I'm
5:46super black and I've done all these
5:47brilliant things and I've really had
5:49this life and you know all of that and
5:52the other one
5:54is who is this uh who thinks
6:00that she's in here and looking out
6:03through the eyes and experiencing this
6:05room and all of that well who am
6:10I right now I
6:13am table a strange American man sitting
6:18over there smiling and well strange I
6:21only met you what an hour ago well
6:24um but now I'm something else um I I
6:28think that's one of very interesting
6:30things about about that i' I've worked
6:32on that as a often often enough
6:36questions is letting go of who she was a
6:40little while ago I I once did a lecture
6:42it's really really annoying because
6:45um uh the the the filming whatever of
6:49the of the lecture was done so badly
6:50that they missed the beginning of the
6:52lecture but I went up on the stage and I
6:54said you know hello I'm I'm to Black
6:56more and whatever and it what it's it
7:00won't be me who leaves at the end and
7:02then I talked about the natural self and
7:04stuff and then at the end I said right
7:06this is another another one who's here
7:07now but of course didn't make sense if
7:09you see it right on YouTube it's like
7:12you don't see the beginning but anyway
7:15um so that I suppose came out of a lot
7:18of thinking about the nature of self and
7:23it's not in my view it's not that
7:25there's something in that changes it's
7:27that there's there's change and there's
7:30every so often the feeling like when you
7:32ask me that question who are you
7:34instantly a self pops up but my attitude
7:38to that is this is a construction of the
7:40brain it is a construction that um it's
7:43an illusion in the sense that it's self
7:47isn't what it seems to be so I still I
7:51still feel like somebody in there
7:53looking out through the eyes a lot of
7:55the
7:56time I can drop that but it's still a
8:00very natural way to be um and that's
8:02what we're beginning to understand in in
8:04Neuroscience how that's constructed how
8:06it's related to the uh um the body
8:09schema in the temporo parital junction
8:11the attention schema that's much broader
8:13in the brain and you all of those things
8:16so it's not a very good answer but
8:18that's the sort of ways in which my
8:20thoughts go right how about you who are
8:22you well I'd agree with your first point
8:25that there's an appearance of you know a
8:27gy who has a history and a story a what
8:29a gym a gym gy gy oh a gym gy I wasag I
8:35was imagining di no we're not gonna go
8:37spiritual here no no nothing
8:41um and that that is an illus well you
8:45could say the history of this body is an
8:48appearance it's just something that
8:49seems to be there but the identification
8:52the the
8:53individual is well here it's been seen
8:56to be an illusion and so to ask ask who
9:00are you all that happens here is nothing
9:04there's just nothing well there can't be
9:06nothing you're talking you're speaking
9:08you're hearing no as far as the youu
9:10goes there isn't anyone there isn't
9:13anyone here who who knows there's
9:16talking happening there's just simply
9:18talking happening so are you saying that
9:21all the time uh day and night and so on
9:26that thing there is in that state of of
9:29not feeling as though there's somebody
9:32who's talking no it's not a state it's
9:35just a lack of it seems to be a lack of
9:37a a certain
9:39self-referential um experience so I can
9:43in a way remember having that but it's a
9:46it's what it is the individual is the
9:49experience of being separate from that
9:52yeah yeah yeah right um You say you can
9:55remember it yeah so this sounds this is
9:58very interesting to me because this is a
10:00it's quite a long time ago that I became
10:05very familiar with the sense that
10:08there's this I mean whenever I ask
10:10myself in meditation or um like I smoke
10:14quite a lot of dope and you know it's
10:15getting to certain states where it's
10:17very easy just to drop that and it's
10:19obvious there's all this and there isn't
10:22something else experiencing it but I
10:24would say awful lot of the time I'm just
10:27back in that what's so normal to human
10:30beings of well it feels like I'm in here
10:32and I'm looking up so those kind of
10:35they're both ways of being here yeah but
10:38you're saying that it's only a f memory
10:40for you of that that kind of I would say
10:43normal way of being so my words are
10:45going to be wrong in some ways because
10:47I'm going to say there was a recognition
10:49of something of what this you could say
10:52what this is it's not actually a
10:54recognition because the individual that
10:57experience of separation hides let's say
11:00the reality of what this is It's it and
11:03that it's not a reality and that's
11:06confusing yeah it is it hides the
11:08reality but it's not a reality no this
11:09isn't a reality it hides the reality
11:11that this is isn't a reality that this
11:14isn't an objectified real reality that
11:17separate experience does that well real
11:20excuse me part of the end of that
11:22experience of separation is twofold one
11:25is that it never actually happened there
11:28isn't anything out outside of that which
11:31is everything appearing as this and the
11:34sorry the recognition which makes it
11:37seem like it's an objectified you know
11:39understanding or something outside of
11:40everything which is seen and it's not
11:43that it's seeing or it's not seeing it's
11:47um it becomes obvious that everything
11:51appears is that which can't be known
11:53appearing as this and that's the end of
11:55the experience of
11:57Separation so there is isn't anything
12:00left that
12:02that that would hold on to or could hold
12:06on to the experience that a duality has
12:09any reality outside of it just appearing
12:13what about memory and personal memory
12:15it's all it's all that that's that's the
12:18all-encompassing um bit is that it's all
12:22that which can't be known being this so
12:25what what effect does this have on the
12:28way you live your life
12:30well it certainly um um what do you say
12:34um rids one of
12:37spirituality yeah what are the aspects
12:39of spirituality that you would like to
12:40be rid of none none now and there
12:44weren't when when I was a Seeker there
12:46were none that I would have wanted to
12:47get rid of I mean it seemed very
12:49important but you just said that You'
12:50just said something about getting rid of
12:52spirituality you want to find out what
12:53you mean oh what the
12:56seeking ah so you're not getting rid of
12:58spiritual it really you're getting rid
13:00of something that is has to be seek and
13:03se but that's where that's where that's
13:05where spirituality comes from is seeking
13:07the experience that the appearance is
13:10somehow lacking in some way which AR for
13:13every um experience of Duality for every
13:17experience of being an individual every
13:19body that has that seeks it's just part
13:22and parcel some are satisfied with
13:24Netflix some have to go to the Himalayas
13:27to find something else but every
13:29separate experience seeks and that of
13:32course doesn't happen here so are you
13:36saying um that you live your life not
13:38seeking
13:39anything well depends what you mean so
13:42this this had to go find um six the the
13:46car rental place that happened it had to
13:50you know look for airplane tickets and
13:52those sorts of things the separate
13:54experience
13:55will just intrinsically see meaning and
13:59purpose in all those activities have the
14:01experience that all that what's
14:03happening is real matter it matters in a
14:07very different way than it actually does
14:10and none of that happens all that sort
14:12of activity seems to happen but it
14:15doesn't have that added layer of trying
14:17to overcome or find something it's
14:19unfair to say that it doesn't happen I
14:21mean things happen there's stuff going
14:23on this change you're you seem to be
14:26getting rid of the baby with the bath
14:28water because
14:29you could can get rid of the the sense
14:32that it matters but you seem to be
14:34getting rid of the fact that anything's
14:35happening at all oh well absolutely
14:37that's absolutely right because
14:40everything is that which can't be known
14:44in a sense you could say well you could
14:47call that which can't be known nothing
14:49and if you take that further then
14:51nothing is this so nothing is what
14:54appears to happen there's nothing really
14:57happening but that's that's well in the
14:59Buddhist sense that's for an emptiness
15:00isn't it um or or or do you not see it
15:04in that
15:05terms emptiness here anyway is the
15:09absence of the individual but the
15:11absence of the individual isn't the same
15:14as this being that which can't be known
15:16there's sort of two aspects of it it the
15:19absence of the individual reveals that
15:21this is that which can't be known being
15:25this I I think I don't want to get too
15:27technical about this but I think form an
15:29Emptiness is not about that so much it's
15:32about that I mean The Emptiness of all
15:34phenomena is that you know uh we call it
15:37a table but it doesn't have independent
15:39existence but still there's stuff still
15:42in in in the world of experience that
15:44there's stuff and there's stuff
15:45happening and things are changing and so
15:47on ultimately they're empty of self
15:49nature but that's different from from
15:51what you're saying it is it is because
15:53that's what you're saying is some
15:55intelle it's intellectual it's an
15:57understanding of what this is and what
15:58I'm talking about can't actually be
16:01known because in the end what we're
16:03saying what I'm saying is that what this
16:06is can't be objectified what's longed
16:09for and that's where seeking sort of you
16:12know chases its own tail is what's
16:15longing for isn't actually an object but
16:17the individual that separate experience
16:19can't do anything but seek an
16:21object so what about suffering well so
16:25pain and all those things still arise um
16:28but
16:29for me suffering is seeking it's that
16:32seeking energy that is a very sticky
16:35needy energy that holds on to and mulls
16:39over emotions feelings Thoughts with its
16:43Constructor idea of what this is
16:45supposed to be seeking is actually sort
16:47of an idea of how the appearance should
16:50be and my effort the individual the
16:52separate experience effort to make it
16:54look that way with the idea that at the
16:57end if I ever get it right I'll be
16:59whatever my idea of that is um
17:02fulfilled It's Tricky um because clearly
17:06you were seeking a car and you want to
17:08go to Six and all of that so can you
17:11actually separate the ordinary totally
17:14you can separate the two kinds of
17:15seeking oh totally well okay that you're
17:19still having you're still a normal human
17:20being going around trying to achieve
17:23things and get here and obviously yeah
17:26yeah so so there's sort of you could see
17:29it as what's happening plus the
17:31experience of Separation so what's
17:34happening it's still everything is the
17:36same and and it's all different at the
17:38same time well that's something that
17:41very many spiritual teachers would agree
17:43with wouldn't they oh yeah maybe yeah I
17:48well I think definitely that the sort of
17:49idea that Enlightenment is not like
17:52gaining something everything's actually
17:54just the same but somehow totally
17:56different yeah I mean a similar thing do
17:59you think we ought to have another
18:00question yeah shall I do one this time
18:03yeah oh do you have a favorite color
18:07ohle well you asked all right all right
18:10it was a very quick answer my school
18:12uniform was purple and I
18:14always I went to a really really
18:17horrible cruel awful girl boarding
18:21school uh yeah that had a certain
18:23culture of Cruelty and misery and
18:25whatever and we were purple we we had
18:27these dresses called the purple horror
18:29and then we had to cuz we were brought
18:31up to be young ladies who were going to
18:33get married and not do anything other
18:35than that yeah and um then we had to
18:38wear gray socks and a gray skirt in the
18:40morning and then have a rest after lunch
18:41and then put on our white socks and our
18:43whatever else it was and different
18:44clothes at the weekend and all
18:49purple I hope it's a good question me
18:57too what is it like to be
19:00you right um well they so so there's a
19:04character Jim that has um just a certain
19:08way of being you know genetics
19:10conditioning that's all here he he
19:13drives a little bit too fast sometimes
19:15he likes Sushi he's um not keen on
19:20culture or restriction um bit of an
19:24anarchist so that's sort of the
19:27expression of
19:28um but this question is what it is like
19:31to be you not what are you like no
19:35that's you described what you're like
19:37yeah yeah both as your own Reflections
19:39on yourself and as I imagine what you're
19:41thinking other people would think of you
19:42oh he drives a bit fast and oh I'll give
19:44him some sushi yeah but what is it like
19:47to be you and is that even a meaningful
19:49question no it's not I guess that's the
19:51reason I went into the default of sort
19:53of the character of this I might have
19:54gotten to what is it like um yeah I
19:58don't know how to answer that I mean you
20:01just have to say this is it's like
20:06this yep well is it like
20:10something well there's so there's
20:13emotions and things that happen there's
20:16there's that that's apparently happening
20:18a Sue is apparently happening a table is
20:21apparently happening and that's that's
20:23what it's
20:24like you're picking on little things
20:27there so the question could be
20:29interpreted as a more globally what is
20:31it like ah say mindfully what is it
20:35like you've just picked on little things
20:37can you say anything about the more or
20:40broader experience because you were just
20:41narrowing it down into certain answers
20:44there well I just there isn't a broader
20:46experience of what it's
20:49like you probably realize that I'm I'm
20:51pushing at this question because it's so
20:53fundamental to Consciousness studies so
20:56it goes back to Nagel's famous 1974
21:00paper what is it like to be a bat you
21:02know Neil degrass Neil de he's somebody
21:04on the internet I don't know him
21:06personally I've met him once yeah and um
21:09I saw something from him recently and he
21:12interjected interrupted someone and said
21:14well maybe we're asking the wrong
21:16question maybe there is no such thing as
21:18Consciousness maybe it's going to turn
21:20out to be something completely else
21:21there's no hard question of
21:22Consciousness it's the wrong question a
21:24hard problem you mean oh sorry the hard
21:26question is a different thing all
21:27together
21:28um there there are two two things there
21:30yeah I I would think it's Neil degrass
21:32Tyson yeah yeah oh sorry yeah right CU
21:35that's that's sort of the what's that is
21:37exactly what's been seen here is that
21:39it's the wrong
21:41question I agree with that in the sense
21:44of um there are real problems um with
21:47the hard problem and I've written quite
21:50a lot about how to escape from the hard
21:53problem but it's really hard I mean
21:56nonduality is if you like an escape from
21:58the hard problem because the hard
21:59problem is basically the Mind Body
22:01problem I mean it's the Mind Body
22:03problem How can there be mental things
22:05and physical things um but uh the hard
22:08problem is expressed differently um Dave
22:10Cher's coined the phrase in
22:131994 um and he he puts it as how can how
22:17can subjective experiences arise from
22:20the objective activities in the brain
22:23there's other ways of putting it but
22:24basically it's that how does one arise
22:26from the other now if you if you say
22:29that Consciousness arises from the brain
22:32you're already some kind of dualist
22:34because you're saying that it's
22:35something separate um but so that's one
22:38way of saying well that's obviously
22:40wrong um it doesn't make sense so there
22:42can't be a hard problem but then it
22:44hasn't really helped you to resolve it
22:47um well how do you resolve a nonsensical
22:49question uh well it's it to come back to
22:53that might be a non I'll come back to
22:55that in a minute I I don't think it I
22:57don't think the mind body problem is a
22:58nonsensical problem because of ordinary
23:02experience of both nothing appearing if
23:06both are that which can't be known
23:08appearing there isn't actually any um
23:11dichotomy anymore but then what do we
23:13have to find out with all our
23:15Neuroscience um what is the neur yeah
23:17and then we have to find out what the
23:19brain so that's what takes me personally
23:22into illusionism because I'm one of the
23:24illusionists um that the nature of self
23:28and the nature of Consciousness are both
23:30Illusions in the sense they're not what
23:31they seem to be so then that diverts you
23:34completely from what's going on most of
23:36the time in Consciousness studies into
23:38saying well what we need to know about
23:40the brain is how it constructs this
23:43illusion and that's what I want to know
23:45and that is not we're getting clues all
23:47over the place but people who are
23:49working on on trying to understand how
23:51Consciousness arises from the brain are
23:54a lot of them are doing uh the most
23:56popular method is is looking for for the
23:58neural correlates of Consciousness so
24:00people are looking for which bits of the
24:01brain or which processes in the brain
24:03give rise to this magical thing rather
24:06than looking for well how is it that
24:08brains like this get corrupted comes to
24:11mind that's not really what I mean uh
24:14but come to experience the world as
24:16though there is a self in here who's
24:18doing it and that Consciousness is is a
24:20tiny bit and there's all these other
24:21unconscious things so that's the sort of
24:24um model into which Consciousness
24:27studies has got but going back to our
24:29question what is it like to be you yeah
24:32what is it like to be you
24:36um that depends totally on how something
24:41in here chooses to interpret the
24:43question so I can do what you did and
24:47take bits and pieces but I'm more
24:48inclined to just
24:50go and then it's just this
24:53so you can't anything you say about what
24:57it's like misses the point because it's
25:00a moment that's then
25:02gone and there's another one so there
25:06isn't an answer to that question which I
25:08think you would agree there isn't an
25:09answer nevertheless it's really
25:11important see Nagel
25:14said this is the key to why his paper so
25:17so famous now he was going to defeat
25:20materialism and totally failed and
25:22what's remained from that is him saying
25:25if there is something it is like to be
25:27the B
25:28something for the bat that's what we
25:30mean by a bat being conscious and if
25:32there's nothing it's like to be the bat
25:34nothing for the bat then that's what we
25:37mean by not being conscious so that
25:39helps us to know what it is we're trying
25:41to find out about that's why it's a
25:43useful question I still think it's
25:44useful question well then in that in
25:47that context this would be completely
25:51unconscious oh right so giving up well
25:56no giving up the the illusion of the
25:58separation no well I mean I don't know
26:00how far you want to go into that but you
26:02no one can give up this experience of
26:05Separation That's Just an Illusion
26:07trying to undermine an
26:10illusion it's just a it's just again
26:12it's chasing its own
26:15tale I I don't understand because you
26:17were saying in a lot of what you've been
26:20saying so far you've been implying at
26:22least that that illusion is no longer
26:24there yeah exactly so isn't it
26:27appropriate of me to say you've given it
26:29up no no because no no one
26:32would no one no one would oh oh because
26:35I'm saying you gave it up so yeah I
26:37didn't really it is given up it is it
26:40has been let go say what would you say
26:43it it seemed to have never happened
26:47actually there isn't any separation but
26:49you so the whole experience of trying to
26:53give it up is just within a dream that
26:55there is real separation I get that but
26:58you were saying the sense of Separation
27:00still arises or something like that no
27:02not here you
27:06okay did it just disappear one day well
27:10you could it's a funny thing to talk
27:12about it disappearing because what
27:13you're doing is you're saying that it
27:15really happened and that it really
27:16changed and something new arose but it's
27:20not that something new arose it's that
27:21there never was separation and so that
27:24dream that in what imposition
27:28on the appearance was no more well that
27:32all sounds very lovely but in a way yeah
27:35yeah can be wait a second here come here
27:38sounds lovely
27:39but a definite but there
27:44um in the Ordinary World of talking
27:48about these things and what we've been
27:49talking about the kind of illusions that
27:51that we have that brains construct yeah
27:54that it if you just say well that never
27:57happened yeah then that's that's false
27:59in the sense that we believed it we said
28:01it words were based on it books were
28:03written on it so in that sense in the
28:06sense that anything happens in the sense
28:07that I can pick up this water and drink
28:10it and that happened and I can also see
28:14that as empty of you know whatever self
28:17nature and so on um didn't it also
28:20happen that that human being
28:23there is different now and did have
28:26illusions as a kid or a teenager or
28:29whenever did have the Illusions and no
28:31longer
28:33does you have to parse out the the fact
28:37that because everything is that which
28:40can't be
28:41known there's a there's a a sense of
28:44reality that it seems to have in
28:47separation which is part of an illusion
28:50that it's not that which can't be known
28:53and in as much as it's that which can't
28:55be known this is that in in as much as
28:57it is that nothing actually really
29:01happens well I know but we have to be
29:03able to we are it's not just that we
29:06have to be able to we are having a
29:07conversation absolutely in in a world
29:11which I all those things that you've
29:13said can still be so but we talk as
29:17though these things matter does no
29:21absolutely not not that it matters it
29:24obviously I'm a bit of a broken record
29:26but everything is that which can't be
29:28known it no longer has that need to have
29:31any meaning or purpose because there's
29:33no one separate seeking anything so it's
29:36just it's Freedom happening for abely no
29:39reason get I get that but I'm still
29:41trying to get back to this thing that
29:43you took me up on which was when I said
29:47that you had let go of that illusion now
29:52just to say oh well that didn't really
29:54happen is to say that nothing really
29:56happened and we can't use even have a
29:57sensible conversation it seems not about
30:00it not about it really happening about
30:02about it seeming to happen we can talk
30:04about that I can I could give you a
30:06story of how it seemed to happen but it
30:09doesn't really happen because there
30:10isn't anything separate from that which
30:12is everything okay let me have the story
30:14then of this young Jim or J or G Gem of
30:18diamond this young Jim was was born and
30:22grew up and so on and has now become
30:24this spiritual teacher isn't it
30:27reasonable oh sorry oh sorry oh oh oh no
30:30okay you become a um um a meeting
30:34[Laughter]
30:38leader
30:39um and this that person who's grown up
30:43and changed has now changed and you say
30:46that I'm not allowed to say that he gave
30:50up I'm talking about the whole gave up
30:53that illusion there's there's no culture
30:55here you're it's unrestricted you can
30:57anything you like it just happens to be
30:59not it it happens to be misleading that
31:02there was any volition personal volition
31:04that had an effect on the end of the
31:07Seeker ah ah which is why I shifted from
31:10you gave it up to you let go and I
31:12should go even further and say it
31:14disappeared or it is no more or
31:16something but you would accept that in
31:19the ordinary way of talking once there
31:20was a boy who did have that illusion and
31:22now there is a physical human being that
31:24doesn't have it and both and both of
31:27them
31:27are this appearing as those ideas or
31:30memories yes then this doesn't come from
31:32anywhere or go to anywhere it's all that
31:35nothingness or whatever you want to call
31:36it that we Champion name appearing is
31:39this but it appears in very interesting
31:41way so yeah there is a danger I think in
31:44in what you're saying there that you may
31:46not fall into but people do that that
31:49makes me ask well how can we do science
31:51then I mean how how can we find out
31:55regularities of the world it's an
31:56extraordinary thing that this world that
31:58is world of appearance is actually
32:01understandable yeah and how how do you
32:03react to that without just saying well
32:04everything's not really happening and
32:06and just washing it all away well I
32:08think what happens is that the separate
32:10experience gets a hold of the idea that
32:12everything is nothing appearing and
32:14nothing really matters and applies that
32:17to its experience of separation and says
32:19why should I Endeavor then in the first
32:21place if nothing actually matters but
32:23the Endeavor doesn't come from the
32:25individual in the first place the
32:26individual ual is just a a a a rider it
32:29just sort of goes with what's happening
32:32and takes responsibility for it says I'm
32:35doing it and it isn't like that that if
32:37there isn't um that separate experience
32:40if there isn't curiosity or interest or
32:42motivation or any of those things tell
32:45me about that taking
32:47responsibility the the experience of
32:50separation is one that everything is
32:52happening to me mhm it's all mine so a
32:57thought is my thought a feeling is my
32:59feeling a decision is my decision and
33:02even that body over there is my
33:04experience of that body everything
33:06belongs to me but I took you to be
33:08saying something like no free will no no
33:12doing no and so on that's right but then
33:14you said take responsibility and I want
33:17to hear more about the illusion that's
33:19still part of the illusion oh yeah
33:20definitely that I'm interested in this
33:22because of an I want to get back to how
33:24can we do science but never mind I'm
33:26interested in that because answered that
33:27and I said it's a
33:29misunderstanding that that this applies
33:31to the individual's motivation that the
33:33motivation that appears the
33:35misunderstanding is that it's the
33:36individual that does that it's just
33:39there's some some bodies are interested
33:41in science and make do science or
33:43interested in poetry or painting or
33:45anything else and do that and when
33:46there's a separate experience that
33:48experience is I'm the motivator that's
33:50not true but I didn't mean we do it I
33:53wasn't talking about that aspect I was
33:54mean why does the universe make sense
33:56this is a question for philosophers have
33:57asked for a long time yeah how come we
34:00you know scientists can that science can
34:03happen and Neuroscience can happen and
34:05we now know all these things and we can
34:07talk about them and we can do
34:08experiments to see them um so the world
34:11has it is is an ordered world and and an
34:14interesting and an investigable World
34:18which
34:19seems rather counter to your what you
34:22were saying about it's not really
34:25happening oh no I I just think the
34:28ordered is just nothing appearing
34:30ordered yeah okay that's for an
34:33emptiness again in my terms anyway back
34:35to the um taking responsibility um I'm
34:38interested in this because of an
34:39experience I had a very long time ago do
34:41you know Reb Anderson I don't um you
34:43know of him or not he used to run the um
34:46uh uh San Francisco Zen Center
34:49um a wonderful teacher I've been on a
34:52few Retreats with him a long time ago um
34:55and uh it was I was back in that
34:58Farmhouse I was talking about you the
35:00really Primitive Place with the endless
35:02hours of meditation and and I came to
35:05this is 20 30 years ago I came to a
35:07great realization of non-doing and of um
35:12non Free Will and and I went to him in a
35:16formal Zen interview you know speak
35:19formally and bow to the master and all
35:20these kinds of stuff you know he sat
35:23there and I was really quite frightened
35:25because as people are when they first
35:27discover this with a feeling oh God I
35:29might go out and start wrecking the
35:31world I might do terrible things don't
35:33but you know all sorts of things were
35:35quite scary and I said what do you do
35:37you know what what do I do when I
35:38realize this and he
35:40said and with you know bright Z eyes and
35:43complete presence you know he said take
35:46responsibility
35:48H that's why I asked you what you meant
35:50by that well here there isn't anyone to
35:53take responsibility but you used that
35:56phrase
35:57yeah as part of the illusion I was
35:58explaining or describing part of the
36:00illusory experience of Separation that
36:02it takes responsibility we were talking
36:04about science and how would science
36:07continue if what I'm saying is true or
36:10and I sort of took that as where would
36:11the motivation come from to to look into
36:15the world or try to delve into and find
36:17out what this is and what I was saying
36:19is the illusion takes responsibility for
36:22the motivation but the motivation might
36:24still come up if there isn't even
36:25without an illusion not so you wouldn't
36:28go along with um Reb's advice then
36:32absolutely not or you might if it were a
36:35a step of Letting Go no not even that
36:38because you don't you don't see any
36:40progress you don't absolutely there
36:42isn't any prog interesting well I think
36:44it's your turn now okay
36:47yep
36:49blue well especially if you have
36:51terrible feelings about blue that you
36:53were forced to wear blue clothes at
36:54school or anything of that kind it's my
36:56second favorite
36:57color
37:00sorry and now you got green that comes
37:02out of it oh no um what is
37:07this they're all kind of the same
37:09question really aren't they yeah that's
37:11true what is this um I haven't a
37:16clue
37:17because um one thing that really annoys
37:20me um people always say that I'm a
37:23materialist and then I get all these
37:25emails saying you know you materialist
37:27so I can't be a materialist because I
37:30don't know what matter would
37:32be um so I call myself a neutral monist
37:38meaning I'm sure there's only one kind
37:40of stuff in this world but I have no
37:44idea what it is so what is this is that
37:48was that the
37:50question well it it goes back to what we
37:53were saying earlier which is kind of why
37:55it's the same question I can do what you
37:58did pick on little bits and go well this
38:00is you know whatever but then that's not
38:04that's getting right away from what is
38:05this which is the same kind of question
38:08as as who am I or um uh what is it like
38:11to be me
38:16now where you have a go oh I've got the
38:19same issue except it's
38:22um it's it's it's obviously
38:28nothing so but it isn't obviously
38:30nothing so that's a really interesting
38:32answer I mean I can get my teeth into
38:34that cuz some of what you say I just
38:35feel I can't get my teeth into it all um
38:38it's I can't really disagree because
38:41there isn't anything substantial to to
38:43to disagree with but it's not
38:46nothing it's this yeah yeah and it's I
38:51mean if I stand and say it's something
38:52I'm spoiling it but it's not nothing
38:55yeah but this is nothing so there's this
38:58and it's nothing it's the that that's
39:01the not tuness of the whole thing is
39:03that it the nothingness and the
39:05somethingness are actually the same
39:07thing well that's form and emptiness um
39:10oh okay okay the the the the Zen
39:12understanding is a bit different from
39:13what you were talking about but it's
39:15it's Slimmer in that respect I mean in
39:17the heart suture it says um uh form is
39:20emptiness and Emptiness is form form is
39:22precisely emptiness and emptiness is
39:24precisely form so so also are sensation
39:28perception valtion and Consciousness
39:30there is no eye ear nose tongue body
39:32mind no sight sound smell taste touch
39:35thought there is anyway never mind that
39:39that's I mean heart Sutra is very
39:41Central in in Zen and but and they tell
39:44you how to do it well that's a very
39:46different matter that's a very very
39:48different matter because they would who
39:50are they who are they um I mean the one
39:53that says you should take
39:55responsibility yeah there is no I
39:57everything is empty form empty emptiness
40:00in form whatever yeah um yeah Ben now
40:03you should go realize
40:05that you mean that's what they say that
40:08now you should go and realize it and you
40:09would say instead of that that you it's
40:11impossible right because either you do
40:14or you don't you can't go seeking for
40:16it an I wouldn't do and I would never
40:19want what we're talking about what what
40:21this is it would always want it
40:23necessarily wants an object something it
40:25can know
40:28experience perceive something that can
40:30add to
40:34itself
40:36so when we ask what is this I'm trying
40:38to do justice to this third question
40:41when we ask what is this there are two
40:44people sit here sat here with this
40:47question can we say anything about the
40:50difference between the kinds of
40:51experiences that we're having I mean
40:53might you say that we're not having an
40:54experience anyway or experience but I
40:56mean there's obviously a different
40:58perception this sees that and that sees
41:00this yeah and that's not nothing is it
41:03oh yes of course it is that's that's
41:05only in the sense we were just talking
41:07about that everything is is something
41:09and nothing that's right and it comes
41:10out of nowhere and doesn't doesn't come
41:13really and or go just is yeah yeah yeah
41:17apparently well do you think we should
41:19uh grasp the last one yeah it's your
41:21turn I bet it's I bet it's basically the
41:24same as the other ones who am I or
41:25something we've had who am I haven't we
41:28oh maybe oh haven't we maybe
41:31not
41:33oh no it's a bit
41:38different I got some power here I I I
41:42cannot tell you oh we have a little
41:45insight into you don't we why why is
41:48this oh right meaning and purpose yeah
41:51yeah so there's um I think you started
41:55off doing two sort sort of different
41:56realities I can remember that because I
41:58can sort of I can totally get into that
41:59so the separate experience is that the
42:02appearance has meaning and purpose and
42:04the idea for the separate experience is
42:06that it through fulfilling meaning
42:08through fulfilling you know through
42:10finding and and fulfilling that meaning
42:12and purpose it'll find endless happiness
42:14that's sort of the the idea of it um or
42:17the experience of it as a separate
42:19individual and you know where this comes
42:22from it it's that um is just part of the
42:25illusion of Separation that something is
42:26really happening and that there freedom
42:29is truly there being no meaning or
42:32purpose there is no why to what this is
42:34it's actually the question why the it's
42:38a need to know hides the freedom that
42:41this is it liter literally it's that
42:43simple but you talk like any normal
42:45person about um why did you go and try
42:48and get the car from six and why did you
42:50come and do this so in that sense in the
42:53way that we talk there is a why and
42:55there is meaning and
42:57purpose well in a specific what what
42:59would you call that context yeah but not
43:02about this not about okay so let's go to
43:05this then okay why is this I like this
43:08question in a much more fundamental and
43:10downto Earth way why uh sorry am I being
43:14I'm being sort of subtly rude that
43:16meaning to me it's all right you do it
43:18maybe I was yeah oh who knows what comes
43:20out of this thing here weird things come
43:23out of this thing here and I hear them
43:25oh who them oh dear um is why is the
43:30world the way it is why is this room the
43:32way it is why are those trees out there
43:34the way they are that's how I'm one way
43:36of looking at this question and that
43:38comes down to Evolution and it comes
43:41down to basic structures of a universe
43:44that we seem to have um and I'm very
43:47firmly in the okay it's ultimately
43:49nothing but I'm going to be working in
43:51the world in which it appears to be
43:52stuff and I'm back to that question
43:54about how come it's a universe in which
43:55we can do science and understand it so
43:59the way that I think about this being
44:01here now
44:03is I suppose it goes back to mono's
44:06chance and
44:08necessity everything came about the way
44:10it did because did it have to well there
44:12were probably random processes as well
44:15um so it's not necessarily deterministic
44:17but the evolutionary process
44:20produces mindlessly design out of
44:23nowhere and trees grow the way they do
44:26because of the genes and because of the
44:27way they adapt to the you know and I
44:30find this just wonderful um I I find it
44:34wonderful in the sense that I suppose
44:37because I like I like Illusions and the
44:41illusion of deliberate design the
44:43illusion that gives rise to the belief
44:45in God the Creator the idea that somehow
44:48we're so clever that we design things
44:50like you know well I'm looking around
44:52something I designed oh all the
44:53paintings over there I painted all of
44:54them um so I designed them but of course
44:57I didn't really
44:59they they happened it it's how this
45:03thing feels about it um but all of that
45:06uh that illusion leads people into
45:09believing in in God the Creator into
45:12believing that we couldn't have this
45:13this wouldn't all happen um without
45:16there being Minds doing things and that
45:19gives a sort of an idea of The Power Of
45:22Consciousness the power to design things
45:24to you know all of which I think is is
45:26wrong everything is just coming
45:29about because it does and I've had lot
45:33of fights with um fights but you know
45:37big arguments um in usually in spiritual
45:42contexts you know we have a
45:44Consciousness uh group in totness and um
45:48the very often people that kind of
45:50really hate the things I'm saying and
45:52one of the things that I'll say
45:53endlessly is it's just stuff happening M
45:56and in a way that fits with a lot of
46:00what you've been saying it's just stuff
46:02happening get used to it MH uh and
46:05that's a hard bit it's getting used to
46:08it um and when I say it's just stuff
46:12happening that's coming a lot of that is
46:15coming from evolutionary science and and
46:18and theory
46:20that amazing things just come about but
46:23it's also coming from the recognition of
46:27Free Will being an illusion of the the
46:30illusions of of what we from our own you
46:33know my Consciousness is doing and but
46:36you see I would say letting go of that
46:37you'd say there's no letting go because
46:38it's always been there but I would say
46:41that it has to be let go of and the way
46:43I've let the science has helped me to
46:45let go by this phrase it's just stuff
46:47happening well the reason I don't agree
46:49with letting go is because the
46:50individual wouldn't if yeah because the
46:52individual is grasping oh absolutely and
46:54if it if it would it would be just
46:56another effort to to um to become to
47:01have a better experience it wouldn't it
47:03doesn't it doesn't want what I'm talking
47:06about it can't because it's it there's
47:08nothing in it for it there's just
47:09nothing in it it's worthless valueless
47:12what about this common idea that
47:17um in in talking about Enlightenment
47:20people
47:21say
47:23um uh you you can't get it there's
47:26nothing you can do to get it but you can
47:28do things that that make it more likely
47:30to happen or in it's an accident yes
47:33exactly exact that's the what thank you
47:35that's what I was grasping at you know
47:36it's an accident but you can make
47:38yourself more accident prone do you not
47:40even agree with that well the that the
47:42idea would be that there's a
47:44relationship between the separate
47:45experience and that which can't be known
47:48and there isn't that relationship just
47:50doesn't there's no separation like that
47:53everything is already there but if what
47:55is bringing about the separation is a
47:58complex illusion constructed by a brain
48:01yeah doesn't work on loosening that
48:05construction help the the it to
48:10disappear no the the illusion looks for
48:13an object it looks for something you can
48:14experience and know it can't do anything
48:17else but do that but and so all of its
48:20activities just confirm the experience
48:22of separation and the idea that it has
48:24Free Will and choice in order to find
48:27what it feels is missing or what it's
48:28longed for that there isn't that
48:31relationship because there isn't any
48:34separation I get that and yet my own
48:37long long-term experience of meditation
48:40and knowing a lot of people um through
48:42Retreats and
48:44whatever is
48:46that with practice with practicing
48:49mindfulness with daily
48:51meditation suddenly a different way of
48:54being sort of pops up
48:56well I think this let's call it a
48:57recognition happens all the time and
48:59even meditation can't stop
49:05[Laughter]
49:07it I mean you know well that I could see
49:11the I could see the little grin on your
49:12face coming as you knew that what you
49:15were going to say uh would make yourself
49:18laugh um not so sure about
49:21me um and I think it's very unkind in a
49:25way way although it's very funny um it
49:30because you're implying that it could
49:32make things worse and I think to some
49:34extent there there is some truth in that
49:36there are well we were talking before
49:38about suffering being one of the golden
49:40orbs of spirituality it's something to
49:43be um uh worshiped there's some value in
49:47suffering I think that's a different
49:48thing I I think what you were coming to
49:50he more is is about if you do a lot of
49:53meditation and you do a lot of hard work
49:55about it you know and it is a huge
49:57effort to make yourself do it every day
49:59and all of that kind of stuff you would
50:02rule that out completely as being
50:05valuable um and the suffering might be a
50:08part of it but I'm talking more
50:09generally about this whereas I think
50:13people can go very badly astray it's
50:15called what's it called spiritual
50:17bypassing no that's something El but
50:18anyway that um spiritual materialism gr
50:22grasping grasping these oh now I've done
50:25you know I'm prone to that I think I've
50:27been meditating every day for 40 years
50:29you know um
50:31but if I hadn't been meditating um every
50:35day for 40 years this thing here would
50:37be a different person now that I I think
50:40that can go in many directions and very
50:42often people do grasp onto it and do
50:46think about achievement and my zen
50:48teacher John crook was always kind of
50:51jabbing me about that you know that's
50:52not the way don't you know you're trying
50:54too hard you know and it's horrible to
50:56be told you're trying too hard when
50:57you're really trying but you know that
51:00can be a stage that some people have to
51:03go through so I don't think there are
51:04stages but I'm certainly not saying that
51:06there's anything wrong with any activity
51:09all I'm saying is or or right of course
51:11meditation has all sorts of effects on
51:13the brain and the body and all these
51:14other things which are beneficial
51:16absolutely but that doesn't it will not
51:19lead to what is
51:20already nothing can yes so it isn't it
51:24isn't undermining it it is undermining
51:26the idea what I said about meditation
51:28can't stop it from happening that there
51:30is a relationship between an activity of
51:33the individual and
51:35freedom so you teach all this you go and
51:41have your meetings and you talk and
51:43everything can you tell me something
51:45about the effect this has on the people
51:47who come to your groups well I think
51:49what you know I talked about the meeting
51:51I had in tazwell in in in Tennessee how
51:55our group seem to be a little bit
51:57different from the other groups who were
51:59trying to find something um that there's
52:02an ease or freedom I guess I would say
52:05and for me that has something to do with
52:08it not being a teaching there is no
52:10imposition whatsoever in the meetings on
52:14the individual to become anything
52:18because it's because it just you know it
52:19correlates completely with what we're
52:21what I've been saying and that is there
52:22is no relationship between the
52:24experience of the individual and Freedom
52:26the experience of the individual is
52:29freedom being the experience that
52:31something needs to happen but I'm asking
52:34this in a rather this is a rather
52:36crudder question than I think the way
52:38you're interpreting it because what
52:40comes to mind is some kinds of teachers
52:43and Retreats and so on can be positively
52:46harmful there there can be a lot of
52:48abuse going on um abuse of power all
52:52kinds of Power things and people can be
52:55become uh distressed um they can become
52:59really Disturbed sometimes with really
53:01bad teachers and bad situations yeah or
53:03you have ones where people will go on
53:05with the same teacher for years and
53:07years and years and years never really
53:10um
53:12uh understanding anything or it never
53:14never really changing and still stuck
53:17there and you can have others where
53:19people really do I would say move on let
53:22go of stuff um become more at ease
53:25um with themselves and and with all the
53:29things that that causes suffering and
53:32I'm trying to wonder what happens to the
53:34people who do you have followers who who
53:36you know what to them out outside of the
53:39abuse of power bit I think all those
53:41things that you mentioned happen in in
53:43the meetings all of that can happen um
53:47what I do find is it's a very hard um
53:52message to follow as as like like
53:55something to hang on to because it just
53:58it just gives nothing it gives nothing
54:01so some are inspired by it and I think
54:03listen to it for quite a while many come
54:06and go quickly because it doesn't give
54:08anything to them I think that's one of
54:11the beautiful things about it is there's
54:12nothing to hang on to it makes it
54:14absolutely clear that there's nothing to
54:17hold on to but the ones who go with it
54:21you you've been saying that there is no
54:23progress whatever but in a way that's
54:26implicit in what you were just saying
54:27that there is that some of these people
54:29get something from it you said oh
54:31absolutely well I mean in that separate
54:34experience the experience is a process
54:37that it always is a process of things
54:39getting better or worse there is no
54:42process just as just as everything is
54:44already empty but yeah people have go
54:47through different processes and whatever
54:49else that seems to happen yeah but you
54:51you've said there's better and worse you
54:54have used the words better and worse
54:57things get better and worse I would
54:59expect you to okay so that's you would
55:03cope with that by saying well that's
55:05when there is an individual there or
55:06there's a self there I wouldn't an
55:07individual is this I would say but the
55:09self there's a self there for whom it's
55:11better or worse yeah but you're really
55:13saying that that's part of the illusion
55:16yeah yeah oh I I would say the same but
55:20I'm I'm having trouble here
55:23because you're saying there is nothing
55:26to be gained because there never was
55:28because there never was a separation but
55:30you in your life and your work you are
55:32dealing with real people for whom things
55:33can be better or worse they can learn
55:35more or they're not they are going
55:36through a process well they're not real
55:38but anyway well like yeah you can say
55:40that but you can say about everything
55:42but they are going through a process the
55:44some of whom will come to see the world
55:46without
55:48this darkness of the self getting in the
55:50way of everything and some won't Now
55:52isn't that to say there is some kind of
55:54progress some kind of of learning some
55:56kind of change well in the same way that
55:57this I say that it didn't happen here it
55:59doesn't happen there there already
56:02aren't individuals it's an illusion that
56:04there's something separate but in the OR
56:06World they've changed but there aren't
56:08there aren't actually two
56:10realities it truly is everything or
56:14nothing appearing as this it is that way
56:18of course as we've been saying quite the
56:20whole time there is this added-on
56:23experience of loser experience of the
56:26individual and that added-on experience
56:28feels like things are proc in a process
56:32it it has a life which it's responsible
56:34for and it's working through a
56:37process and the end of that isn't a real
56:40thing because they never was an
56:41individual working through anything
56:42there isn't anything really
56:45happening oh now you end with a beatific
56:49smile I mean I say end because it kind
56:52of you put that smile on as in this kind
56:54of nice way that it felt like an ending
56:56so do you think we should we should call
56:58this the ending of our four questions
57:00okay yeah great mhm yeah yeah lovely
57:04thank you well thank you thank you very
57:05much you non-existent person
57:08in
57:10non-existent you body sitting here um
57:13thank you very much thank
57:23you

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