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Separating Testing Truths from Fiction In Competitive College Admissions — Transcript

by Cyndy McDonald's Channel · 10,047 words · 1,432 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:01hi everyone I'm so glad to have you here
0:03today today is the Friday Forum it's the
0:07last Friday forum for the month of
0:09August I've been doing one every week as
0:12kind of a back to school special to help
0:15get us kickstarted into the new school
0:18year and before we really launch into a
0:21super busy season that we all have and
0:25I'm going to tell you a little bit more
0:26at the end about what's in store the
0:30future times but I'm so pleased today to
0:32have a full panel of experts to talk to
0:35you as I mentioned my name is Cindy
0:38McDonald I'm an educator an entrepreneur
0:41and a traveler and I know we have
0:43somebody in our midst today who's also
0:46been a traveler and so he's coming to us
0:48from a a a remote
0:52location and we're going to talk about
0:55test and test prep we're going to talk
0:58about the new National test
1:00preparation
1:02organization and I have Mike Bergen from
1:04Chariot learning he is the president of
1:07the national test preparation David
1:09Bloom from Summit test prep he is the
1:13director of Outreach for the national
1:15test preparation and McKenzie Lee who is
1:18the founder of testy and he is also a
1:22member of very in um important member of
1:26esteemed you might say esteemed member
1:28there we go the national test prep
1:31organization so as you're coming in
1:33please put your name and your location
1:36so that they can see where you're from
1:39and as always if you have a question put
1:42the question in the Q&A we have Carmen
1:45guo she's back at school she's with us
1:48today so she's going to be monitoring
1:50monitoring the chat and managing
1:54questions and things so I'm really glad
1:57to see many people here taking a little
2:00bit of a break on this Friday just
2:03before the Labor Day weekend and so I'm
2:07just really pleased to have everyone
2:09here today so as everyone's coming in
2:13and putting in their name and their
2:14location let's do a few introductions
2:19and just tell us a little bit about
2:20yourselves and um how you became a part
2:25of the national test prep organization
2:27so McKenzie let's start with you
2:31uh so my name is McKenzie Lee um I
2:35recently it was it was only about a year
2:37year and a few months ago that I joined
2:39the National test prep Association um I
2:42found out about it uh through a Facebook
2:45group of all places and um the one for
2:48for Mike's podcast Mike and Amy cely um
2:52and I I found out they were having a uh
2:55conference in Dallas that that June last
2:58June and I H on a plane about a month
3:00later and I met some of the best people
3:02I've ever met talked about some exciting
3:04things in in test prep and and was able
3:07to really uh
3:09um uh really connect with people who are
3:12sort of tuned in in the way that I am um
3:16that we all are uh with test prep that's
3:18great that's great Mike let's go to you
3:21next I'm Mike Bergen thanks for having
3:23me Cindy um I have been in education for
3:26over 30 years been in test prep a long
3:28time I I founded Chariot learning in
3:31Rochester New York back in 2009 I am the
3:36co-host as McKenzie mentioned of the N
3:38of the test and the rest podcast which
3:41all of our panelists and our host have
3:43been on um I am the founding president
3:46of the national test prep Association
3:48I'm the creator of the test Sprite sat
3:50act curriculum the roots to words word
3:53of the day I'm really excited about
3:56education and I do a lot of things in
3:58the space that's great right what about
4:00you David so when you talk to a lot of
4:03tutors you'll hear a very long and weird
4:06road to how they got into tutoring so
4:08mine's the same uh when I graduated from
4:11the University of Chicago I was waiting
4:13on a long scope background check from
4:15the CIA to finish up so I thought hey
4:17I'll just tutor you know for a couple
4:19months in the interim started tutoring
4:22absolutely loved it love teaching
4:24standardized tests because you don't
4:26just teach one subject matter you get to
4:28teach grammar Ma mathematics reading
4:30data analysis so fell in love with it
4:33even before the 6 to 12 months of the
4:35background check was up I withdrew my
4:38preliminary job offer said hey I'm going
4:40to do this full-time and 14 years later
4:43no regrets I've helped hundreds of
4:45students and two tutoring locations with
4:48a team of tutors now so we've helped
4:50thousands of students just get a better
4:52foundational um academic preparedness
4:55for college and help them succeed in
4:56life and then with the the national test
4:59prep associ
5:00it's the premier Organization for tutors
5:03um so I got involved because I studied
5:06sociology in college I wanted to
5:08prioritize access for students so the
5:12national test prep Association advocates
5:14for the appropriate use of testing for
5:17college admissions so that was the sweet
5:19spot for me and I've been the uh
5:21director of ed director of Outreach for
5:23the last three years now wow so you gave
5:27up CIA to become a tutor
5:30yes and I I mean in retrospect it
5:34actually seems like an easy decision
5:37because it hits all the sweet spots of
5:40you get to nerd out and learn a lot you
5:42get to teach students it's a very
5:45meaningful uh vocation so no regrets at
5:48all that is
5:50fantastic I I must say I was very
5:52surprised that there wasn't a national
5:55test prep organization until recently
5:58when when was it found found it Mike
6:00when did you find found the organization
6:03to be fair Cindy we were surprised as
6:05well H which is why we had to create and
6:08so we first came up with the idea of
6:13forming a National Industry
6:16nonprofit uh back in
6:192020 and we put together the work group
6:22to launch the organization but then
6:26something happened in the spring of 2020
6:28that demanded all of our attention you
6:30know what that was it put our formal
6:33launch on hold until 2021 but we're
6:36actually up and running through 2020 uh
6:39we all had ample time to connect on zoom
6:42and kind of create the blueprint of what
6:45we wanted the organization to be like
6:46and you know so though we launched
6:49formally in 2021 we've been holding
6:52inperson events for 3 years and we
6:56really grew quickly and we're just
6:59expanding
7:00as more and more Educators find out that
7:02this organization actually
7:05exists I think that's fantastic and as
7:08someone that helps start an organization
7:11I know the time and effort and the heart
7:14that goes into that so
7:18congratulations and so you mentioned Co
7:20and we know during Co many colleges went
7:23test optional but in the past 6 months
7:27which colleges have reinstated test ing
7:33requirements do you I think David is
7:35ready to Rattle them off at any moment I
7:38mean there's quite a few that that
7:40actually came as quite a surprise that
7:42were test optional now they've come back
7:44and said oh well by the way we're going
7:45to now require tests so what are some of
7:48those goals good question so um there's
7:52Harvard there's Brown there's Cornell
7:54there's Dartmouth there's Yale there's a
7:57couple that I've even just recently
7:58announced so there's Johns Hopkins said
8:00in the next cycle there'll be uh test
8:03required just I believe just yesterday
8:05Carnegie melon said for next cycle
8:08there'll be tests required there's UT
8:10Austin um there's actually far more than
8:13we can keep track of so there's a link
8:15that we can put in the show notes um
8:17it's from college Vine it's 120 well now
8:20122 colleges that have gone back to test
8:24required so too many to name um but and
8:29also I mean there's there's MIT there's
8:31Georgetown celtech actually went from
8:33Test free skipped over test optional
8:36went all all the way back to test
8:37required so there's more than I can
8:39remember off the top of my
8:40head well that's the point too right
8:43that there are a lot of schools that
8:45have gone back to that and what are the
8:49reasons that they're giving I know you
8:51know Dartmouth had a report and said
8:54these are the reasons that we've cited
8:56to go back to testing and I'm had other
9:00conversations um about that as well
9:04so what are the reasons and what are
9:06your feelings about that are they
9:09substantiated or not I I can feel that
9:12as well um so it's kind of my jam so
9:16first thing that I want to know is it
9:18seems completely counter uh inuitive
9:22especially for a lot of people in the
9:24admission space that colleges would go
9:26back to test requiring because what do
9:28colleges get out of that it's very
9:31unpopular and it drives down their their
9:34number of applications so because it
9:37seems against their best interest to do
9:40so we take their reasons very seriously
9:43I personally believe their reasons so
9:45they've given three primary reasons
9:47their first primary reason that they've
9:49given is
9:50transparency so colleges found that
9:53despite the fact that they themselves
9:56said they were truly test optional it
9:58turns out they actually weren't so
10:00Cornell Dartmouth Yale and others have
10:03actually explicitly stated that that
10:05when they controlled for all other
10:07factors they found their own admission
10:10staff was giving a preference to
10:13students with high test scores so
10:15Jeremiah quinland he's the director of
10:18uh admissions for Yale he said on the
10:20Yale podcast explicitly that he felt
10:24they weren't being truthful to students
10:27by being test optional so just as a
10:29matter of truthfulness and integrity
10:32some colleges have gone back and said
10:35hey if we really behind the scenes give
10:37a preference for high test scores we're
10:39just going to say you know we prepare we
10:42prefer test scores and so we're just
10:43going to require them so first was
10:46transparency the second was that these
10:48colleges have also shown that there's
10:51was a there has been a Divergence in
10:53performance between students who
10:55submitted test scores and those who
10:57didn't when you actually look at a data
11:00it's a little bit harder to figure out
11:01though because if you just look just at
11:03GPA it doesn't tell the whole story you
11:06really need to do an Apple's Apple's
11:07comparison meaning students in the same
11:10major who submitted and didn't submit
11:13that's when you see a very high
11:14Divergence because you see a lot of
11:16students who didn't submit test scores
11:19and they might be doing worse in a
11:21Premed track well they don't stay in
11:23that Premed track then they might go
11:25into a major that gives out more Easy
11:27A's I'll pick on so sociology I'm a
11:29sociology major so they might go into
11:32sociology which just you know just to be
11:34honest more students get A's into
11:36sociology right so then we see that
11:39their their GPA bounces back in second
11:42year but that's really if they had been
11:45forced to stay in the Premed track there
11:47would have been more of a Divergence so
11:49to put some numbers behind that though
11:51Yale has said that if you go just based
11:55on high school GPA high school GPA
11:58explains
11:599% of a student's GPA at Yale if you go
12:04just based on test scores SAT and ACT
12:07scores that explained
12:0922% of a student's GPA Yale so those sat
12:13ACT scores alone were more than twice as
12:16predictive so Harvard Brown and Yale are
12:20on record saying that the most
12:23predictive measure in the entire
12:25admissions process for how a student
12:27will do in in college is an SAT and ACT
12:30score so for those colleges that have
12:33made the decision we're going to
12:35prioritize academic success over High
12:38application numbers or or other
12:40priorities they've said we're going to
12:42require a test scores and then the third
12:45is really MIT led the way in this is
12:48saying it's really a case of equity so
12:53um Yale MIT Dartmouth they've said that
12:57test optional admissions is very
12:58confusing for students when do I submit
13:00when do I not submit what they found is
13:03that underresourced students were
13:06actually not submitting test scores that
13:08would have helped them because we know
13:10that it's those underresourced students
13:12who they might have a very hard time
13:15standing out from their circumstances so
13:17it was actually the SAT and ACT score
13:19that could help those students get in
13:22even if that score was below the
13:24college's median so they said just as a
13:27matter of equity we don't want to miss
13:30out on those students who would stand
13:33out from their circumstances with a high
13:35sat ACT score so we're going to require
13:37them so it really came down to
13:39transparency academic performance and
13:41then
13:43Equity so well and I understand the
13:46transparency for sure um the other
13:50things I think you know looking at the
13:53data and evaluating that
13:56are it sounds to me like there needs to
13:58be more studies and more you know data
14:01to go with that Carmen you have a
14:04question yeah so um if the only reason
14:09that these colleges are um going back to
14:12test required is because of honesty
14:14could they solve this problem by going
14:15test
14:17blind I mean as David pointed out there
14:20more than one reason and to be fair
14:24there is a big gap if we want to talk
14:25about honesty or transparency you have
14:28the Test free we we won't say test blind
14:31we'll say sat act blind schools and then
14:35we have the test mandatory sat act
14:38mandatory schools they represent a small
14:40fraction of all the schools in the
14:42system we still have this Valley that
14:46test optional
14:48spans a myriad of different
14:50interpretations from uh 20% of last
14:53year's incoming class submitted scores
14:55to 80% of last year's incoming class
14:58submitted scores we still have a long
14:59way to go for True transparency and
15:03honesty yeah yeah and that that is true
15:06I you know having worked with students
15:09in all sorts of different circumstances
15:11and in our technology too when you look
15:14at test optional there's like 20
15:17different variations on what that is
15:19your your test your grades are a certain
15:22height or you know whatever the
15:25circumstances are then you can you don't
15:27have to submit test scores I want to go
15:30back to um the the concept of you know
15:34one of the things that Dartmouth is
15:37cided equity and you talked about Equity
15:39David and they talked about score
15:41strength so and that's something you
15:43were just referencing so tell us a
15:45little more about score strength and is
15:49this A New
15:50Concept um so score strength is the
15:54phrase that Dartmouth used explicitly in
15:56their announcement to describe exactly
15:58how their how they're interpreting
16:00scores as they come in for students so a
16:02lot of um a lot of students parents
16:05families have this misinterpretation of
16:09the way that these scores are looked at
16:11by colleges that a
16:131350 uh is a 1350 whoever it comes from
16:16and that's not that's not true
16:18whatsoever right so a 1350 or let's say
16:22a 1450 coming from a school that
16:25averages 1100 1150 something like this
16:28will look like a really it'll be a
16:31really strong supplement to that
16:33application probably and this is what
16:35David was referencing a second ago where
16:37these students who are coming from these
16:39schools look at the middle 50th
16:42percentiles for any of the you know the
16:44schools that they want to go to they see
16:47that they're excluded from that and they
16:49think that it's going to hurt them when
16:50they put that when they put that in but
16:53in reality a number of different factors
16:56are going to be looked at that same 1450
16:59was coming from um I think of the New
17:01Jersey schools near near David um you
17:04know somewhere where you've got a 1350
17:06or 1400 as your average it's going to be
17:08viewed as a mediocre addition to the uh
17:11to the application so the College Board
17:13actually has a software called landscape
17:16um that is available to the missions
17:18officers that with every score is
17:21reporting this this really Deluge of
17:25data on top of that score to help
17:28contextual ize it and make it so that
17:30it's better um that it's that it's not
17:32just a single number um and we look at
17:34that score in the context of a larger um
17:37you know socio you know socioeconomic
17:39and and just general social factors just
17:41to list a couple of the things that are
17:43being provided so first each score um on
17:47a personal level is going to be related
17:49directly to the averages coming from
17:51other students at that school um basic
17:55high school data is going to be provided
17:56so this is the location this is is um
17:59you know in that location's category so
18:01rural small City large city um General
18:05economic factors like the number of
18:06students receiving discounted or free
18:09lunches um the the size of the class um
18:12the average number of APs taken the
18:14average grade on APS uh on AP tests at
18:17that school um College attendance
18:20household structure median family income
18:22housing stability the list goes on and
18:25on and on so all of these are factors
18:27that add color to to that to that score
18:31um and indicate okay is this something
18:33that supports this application or
18:34something that hinders it um and this is
18:37the idea of score strength and this is
18:38really the way that score is a is a
18:42fundamental element in equity and this
18:44is why that Dartmouth Yale and many of
18:46the others talked about Equity is the
18:49IDE the idea is that okay if we just
18:52looking at if everybody was looking at a
18:541350 as the same score whoever it comes
18:57from yes that may be that would probably
18:59penalize certain groups because
19:02according to the landscape of American
19:04Education different social groups
19:06perform better or worse than others uh
19:09however when we're looking at it in
19:11context all of a sudden here's just one
19:14more piece of data that a student can
19:16use to demonstrate their academic
19:18excellence and their preparedness for
19:20college so that's very interesting and
19:23already I see there's all sorts of
19:25questions coming up so more is this term
19:28term score strength is this going to be
19:31used by more colleges is this going to
19:33become a term that that's um part of the
19:38vernacular as we go forward that's one
19:41question and then my other question is
19:43is are all high schools represented on
19:45this
19:46landscape um like you know I'm thinking
19:49about here where I am in central
19:50California I have a lot of high schools
19:53who you know my students are lucky if
19:54they get 900s on the SAT uh so are they
19:59as every H how broad is landscape um and
20:04then there's a third question that
20:05people already have so we'll come back
20:07to that in a minute but so landscape um
20:10and I'm open to people who can correct
20:12me on this but I'm pretty sure that
20:13landscape is just the most current model
20:16the most current tool that college board
20:18uses to share information that
20:20historically it's shared with admissions
20:24offices with colleges and yeah they hit
20:27all high schools focusing when you're
20:29talking about kind of schools by you
20:31Cindy that maybe students aren't um you
20:34know don't have access to all of the
20:38deepest educational resources those are
20:40the kind of schools that would
20:42definitely be represented in landscape
20:45and a lot of college admissions offices
20:49use this data they and they appreciate
20:52the fact that this data exists and that
20:54they can use
20:56it yeah I mean landscape is really the
20:59um the premise and the best tool for the
21:02holistic admissions process so every
21:04single College in the country does
21:06holistic admissions they're not just
21:08viewing a score or a grade in isolation
21:11they actually want the tool Cindy to
21:15your point for those schools where the
21:17average is a 900 so that if a kid gets a
21:191300 they can see hey that's three
21:21standard deviations higher than the
21:23average a 1300 might be very low
21:26compared to Yale's median but it puts
21:28the student in a 0.1 percentile of their
21:31school that's exactly the type of
21:34student that Yale wants that's why Yale
21:36and and especially other top colleges
21:38are using holistic Admissions and are
21:40using that that uh landscape from
21:42college board oh well you guys are I you
21:44know I am not an advocate for testing
21:48because I've seen the whole gamut but
21:49you're moving me
21:51forward I um this is very interesting so
21:55to be really quickly the as so we say
21:58college board and college board is what
22:00who provides landscape act the um Act is
22:04taken in and worked through concordance
22:07tables the official concordance tables
22:08from 2018 in the context of landscape as
22:11well so this is not just this is any um
22:14I don't think that they um well they do
22:17provide data on AP tests as well but any
22:19any standardized test it's being
22:20contextualized it's not a black and
22:22white situation at all and that's
22:25important that I think that is the key
22:27and then that takes us back to one of
22:28those reasons and I see Monica and I'm
22:31sure other people are asking can you
22:32revi you know relist the three reasons
22:35that they went back to Tes prep so trans
22:38transparency was
22:40one transparency the Divergent
22:42performance between students who did and
22:45did not submit especially when you do
22:46apples to apples comparisons so there
22:49are really only two studies that are
22:51um cited by people who don't who who
22:55don't want test scores used in
22:56admissions it's defining promise as the
22:58University of Chicago study the other
23:01wealth of data we're talking about
23:03Decades of research covering millions of
23:05students has always shown when you do
23:07the statistical comparison correctly
23:10again Apple to Apple students in the
23:12same major there is always a
23:15statistically significant difference so
23:17again you know if you want to be
23:20admitting students who are the most
23:21academically prepared who are going to
23:23succeed the most in your uh
23:25institution you know at least you would
23:28think test scores would be part of the
23:30puzzle when they give such good
23:32information um and then the last piece
23:35was um the equity piece that again they
23:38were having MIT has said they found it
23:42hard to find those students who would
23:44stick out from their con their their
23:46contacts because you take that student
23:48who comes from a a school where the
23:50average is 900 and they have straight A
23:53you don't know that they're prepared for
23:54Yale you get that 1,300 from them boom
23:58you know they are just absolutely
24:00Stellar you know that they can they can
24:01do it at Yale so and I just want to add
24:04a a factor that comes out from what
24:06David's saying and I want to use a
24:09phrase that we know what it means but
24:12just to clarify this the value of the
24:14test scores as context is college
24:16readiness is to say that a student's
24:19grades are not meant necessarily as an
24:21indicator of college readiness in that
24:23you know the high school history teacher
24:27the high school pre calculus teacher the
24:30job of that teacher is not to establish
24:33college readiness the job of the teacher
24:34is very specifically to instruct
24:36students in front of them meet a lot of
24:39state district requirements I mean
24:43this teachers in schools have enough
24:46work on their plates we don't need to
24:48give them also the determination to say
24:50that your grades have to predict college
24:53readiness they don't need to do that
24:55because there are instruments that are
24:57designed to do that and consistently
24:59done that over
25:00decades I think that's a really good
25:02point Mike and I and and I think that's
25:05important for all of us to bring that
25:08concept back into the whole conversation
25:10is what does qualifies as uh College
25:13ready and you know that includes mental
25:16health and neural Divergence students
25:18and all these other aspects too um one
25:21of the questions that I see and I know
25:23everybody's thinking this is how can we
25:25as counselors and advisors see landscape
25:28is that something we can get those
25:30reports can we create an account and see
25:32that it's I we added a link to landscape
25:36in the chat and it's a higher ed tool so
25:41my understanding is that you cannot see
25:43it but you can certainly as an IEC reach
25:46out to some of your colleagues in the
25:48admissions offices and talk to them
25:51about the data that they're seeing is
25:53there something similar in slate though
25:55I mean we can set up accounts in slate
25:57and see our students and I know slate is
26:00something that a lot of colleges use
26:03that's a great question it's possible I
26:05mean there might be a hook between slate
26:08and the data in which case everyone can
26:09access it you're the professional Cindy
26:12I I don't know as much about you I
26:15people I have people in the audience who
26:17I I have a feeling will go and find out
26:19I'm looking at Kate I'm looking at a few
26:21people that I know so so I want to go
26:24back to the concept of grades versus
26:27testing and you you hit on grade
26:29inflation how much do you think grade
26:32inflation has driven this um you know
26:37reemergence of the importance of testing
26:41and you know the the conversation and
26:45reviewing the data because because
26:47that's one of the things we found after
26:48covid you're only looking at tests I
26:50mean you're only looking at grades well
26:52everybody has a 4.0 so then that doesn't
26:54give you anything to compare to you know
26:56at least with the test scores you see
26:58whether you're in the middle at the top
27:00or the bottom and and it gives you a
27:02much
27:03more perspective accurate perspective so
27:07what about test and grade and grade
27:10inflation yeah so we hear a lot about
27:12that um but so I want to put some
27:15numbers on it because we hear so much
27:16about it
27:18so what what I look most at is the
27:21higher educ UCLA's higher education
27:24Research Institute College freshman
27:27survey so that goes back to 1966 so in
27:301966 it was 20% of students had an a
27:33average who were going onto a 4-year ba
27:36granting University 20% a average 80%
27:39didn't have an a average now you look at
27:422022 the last year that there was Data
27:44available it was 80% had an a average
27:5020% didn't have an a average so
27:53objectively grades are far far more
27:57inflated and so that becomes really
28:00difficult for parents to wrap their
28:02minds around where you know in a average
28:05used to be like all right you're
28:06crushing it you're on honor role you're
28:08on high honor role you're doing great
28:11it's really hard as tutors when families
28:14will come to us and be like look my
28:16child you know they're a good student
28:18they're an honorable student they get
28:19you know a average and they're just not
28:22a good test taker they have a 20 on the
28:24ACT to us what we see is well that is
28:29average based on the grades assuming the
28:32average high school right high schools
28:33vary in in in their difficulty and a 20
28:37is average for the act so that's
28:39actually like they're at where they we
28:42we would think that they are so it can
28:44be in a very hard dose of reality when
28:49for 11 years of schooling a a student
28:52and their parent have thought I'm
28:54crushing it I'm on honor rooll and the
28:56average student at their school is honor
28:58roll and they get a 20 on the ACT and
29:00they're just totally deflated really
29:03that shows that you know that's a that's
29:05a generalized comparative metric um so
29:09long story short grades are very
29:11inflated and it's something that I hope
29:13people better understand and just just
29:16to add to that we've known about grade
29:18inflation for a long time um Professor
29:21Seth gersson he released a study on
29:25grade inflation in high schools that was
29:27from 20 5 to 2016 and a really important
29:31point he made about grade inflation was
29:33that it was inequitable the students in
29:36the higher socioeconomic brackets the
29:38students who went to private schools
29:40were more likely to benefit from grade
29:42inflation and it was just another way
29:45that we say we want to understand the
29:47numbers
29:49and find ways to present
29:53information and take out some of that
29:55privilege take out some of the where
29:58uh the all the odds seem to be favoring
30:03certain
30:06people piggybacking as well um one of
30:09the issues Beyond even the GPA is that
30:12you know and talking about honorable
30:13that kind of thing is is just
30:16understanding the system of standard
30:18versus honors courses versus AP so many
30:22so many parents at this point when they
30:24hear honors courses to them that is just
30:26you know the highest possible riger and
30:29really unless we're seeing AP courses
30:31with good scores on those AP tests at
30:33the end of them it is not really a high
30:35rigor curriculum um and so we are often
30:38the bear of bad news unfortunately in
30:41the test prep industry saying look I'm
30:44sorry you know somehow this wasn't this
30:48wasn't brought up to you um by sort of
30:50putting against this backdrop of all of
30:52the other uh students um students in you
30:56know across the country um but the the
30:58level of academic rigor of your students
31:01uh of your students achievements in
31:02school is not particularly
31:04High um you know 18 17 years into their
31:10into their life here is the first time
31:11they'll hear it from us
31:13unfortunately yeah yeah I bet you have
31:15quite a job convincing of them of
31:19that it's I mean it's interesting
31:22because this is all of the issues that
31:26we're talking about all of the
31:28complaints all of the concerns relate to
31:32just American Education right we don't
31:35have a national test we don't have a
31:37national
31:38curriculum and educational priorities V
31:42vary from state to state district to
31:44district and family to family and just
31:48from the very beginning the the minute
31:50we wanted to get rid of any assessment
31:53that was applied equally to all of our
31:55students we lost the ability to
31:58evaluate the students that needed the
32:01help it's you know regardless of what
32:04you think of the SAT or
32:07act you can't argue with the idea that
32:10standardized tests have a role that you
32:12need just like you know in New York
32:15state we have a we have a driving test
32:17there is this the same written test and
32:19road test that everybody takes and
32:21whether I think I'm a good driver or not
32:23if my if the person who is in charge of
32:26giv me a license says no you're not a
32:27good driver driver I have to go with
32:29that and then I have to learn exactly
32:33what the governing body the licensing
32:36body tells me I should know it's a very
32:39formal system in some areas in American
32:41Education it's completely ad hoc it's
32:44cobbled together by all different kinds
32:46of organizations nonprofits for the most
32:49part working together and just creating
32:51pieces so you know the tests that we're
32:53talking about today have been one piece
32:57of an elaborate mechanism that's
33:00designed ideally to get the right
33:03students into the environments where
33:05they are going to
33:07thrive well that's very interesting
33:10looks like car I can see we have a
33:12number of questions so this does
33:14generate a lot of conversation and
33:17perspective for sure quite a bit of
33:20questions and I think you touched a bit
33:22Mike but can you explain what you mean
33:24by great inflation benefiting higher
33:27socioecon students more do you mean that
33:29their grades are more likely to be
33:31inflated yes um not not to say that you
33:34know if a student goes to a private
33:36school that student is guaranteed
33:37inflated grades it's to say that so I
33:42don't want to show my age here but I
33:44think some of us remember a time when an
33:46a meant something and that it was
33:48possible to get a c in school and
33:51there's a
33:52famous there's a famous two panel
33:55editorial cartoon that always comes mind
33:58when we talk about this topic and it's
34:00back in the old days if the student had
34:03a problem in class and the teacher right
34:05wrote a note to the parent saying like
34:07you know the student's not working you
34:09would have the teacher and the parent on
34:10one side of the desk saying to the
34:12student what are you doing wrong why why
34:14are you doing this but today in a lot of
34:17schools if the student is struggling if
34:19the student is failing let's not say
34:21struggling let say not doing assignments
34:23not doing the work parents will advocate
34:26for the student today
34:28the parent is on the side of the student
34:31yelling at the teacher why did you fail
34:33the student in
34:35that it's a lot easier in environments
34:40where parents are they have the time and
34:44the resources to Advocate strenuously
34:47when they're tapped into a sense that a
34:50B+ could ruin a student's future right
34:54like like it sounds hilarious because
34:56that's not true it's not but it's to say
34:58everything is writing on getting all A's
35:00to be able to get into the most
35:02selective schools and parents exert
35:05tremendous pressure on teachers and
35:09administrators and the administrators
35:10put the pressure on the teachers I think
35:12we all know teachers I we all personally
35:14have friends who are teachers and they
35:15can speak to this in their classrooms
35:17and it just happens to be and I'll share
35:21the link to gerson's study but remember
35:23this was pre- pandemic this was before
35:25things really blew up but that in
35:29certain environments you know if you
35:31were in certain socioeconomic strata you
35:35were more likely to benefit you had the
35:37ability to benefit from that and it
35:40makes and it makes sense too right
35:41because in you know in the cas is where
35:44the parent is is yelling at the teacher
35:46right at a private school you are a
35:48client right you're saying that you're
35:50unhappy with the product that you've
35:51purchased right whereas there's no there
35:53there isn't necessarily other than you
35:56know making somebody's life
35:58miserable um there isn't necessarily the
36:00same kind of Gravitas to somebody
36:02yelling at a at a public school
36:04employee that's yeah that's true so I
36:07see and Monica asked a very good
36:09question and she's our overseas does the
36:11landscape cover international schools uh
36:15high schools as well secondary schools
36:18presumably landscape covers all of the
36:21schools where students take the
36:24SAT but I I can't speak to that okay
36:28okay well that's a good that's a good
36:30question um
36:33so looks
36:35like here's another question I'm going
36:38to go ahead and lob this kmen tests are
36:40just one factor in a holistic review and
36:43this is this connects to the next
36:44question I was going to ask well maybe
36:46not ideal test our standard selective
36:49colleges can VI test scores in context
36:52of the school profiles just like GPA and
36:55vigor without test scores families who
36:58can afford it can spend more on tutoring
37:01right now a big issue in places like
37:03California this has come up um and a
37:06couple of comments is the inability to
37:08find test locations I will share with
37:10you I had conversation with a parent
37:12this week um her daughter is a senior
37:16and Mom pushed in California she pushed
37:19to have her daughter go take the SAT
37:21last year and the counselor told her
37:23flat out you don't need to do that and
37:25would not they don't they don't offer it
37:27they they didn't offer it and they don't
37:29offer it so this is a big issue um
37:31especi not just California but other
37:33states is access to the testing so is
37:38they um what's the status on that
37:42defitely speak States for so so we've
37:45done the homework on this in that this
37:48the issue of finding test centers for
37:51students has long been a function of
37:56professionals in our industry through
37:59the pandemic when students weren't able
38:01to find locations many of us were
38:03concierges we were like oh go to this
38:04school they're more likely to stay open
38:06go to this school but you know as the
38:09national test prep Association has be
38:11taken a more formal role as an advocate
38:13we've connected with college board we've
38:16connected with act we've spoken to
38:18parents and students stakeholders all
38:20over to try to find the root cause why
38:22are there so few test centers in
38:25California why is it that you know
38:28across the country as you point Cindy
38:30just two weeks ago just the week going
38:32into the August sat lots of students got
38:35notifications sometimes in the middle of
38:38the night before the morning of the SAT
38:41your test location has been cancelled
38:44guess what college board isn't doing
38:45that act isn't deciding to cancel the
38:47test at the last minute it's happening
38:50and I hate to be the one to say this
38:52it's happening at the school level and
38:55um David and I we had a fantastic
38:58conversation with Sebastian Gilmore does
39:01anybody remember the LA Times oped that
39:04came out a couple of months ago written
39:06by a student in California I live in
39:07Northern California why should I have to
39:09travel to Texas to take the SAT that was
39:11Sebastian and we spoke to him and
39:15he talk about an amazing teen right talk
39:18about the kind of student that all of us
39:20love to meet in our educational Journeys
39:24because he saw a problem and he took
39:27action and he's still taking action he's
39:29still trying to Advocate on the student
39:31and District level to get schools to
39:34embrace their
39:37responsibility in offering these
39:39locations I mean that's really what it
39:40comes down to it's you know I can't
39:45defend a school in my area I'm in
39:47Upstate New York right and I understand
39:49how hard it is to staff a test center in
39:53August when your schools aren't open
39:54until after Labor Day but at the end of
39:56the day
39:58lots of students are really depending on
40:01that
40:02opportunity and when when schools decide
40:07at the last minute to cancel because
40:09they can't staff it or they decide not
40:11to offer it at all we have real issues
40:14of opportunity we have real issues that
40:17impact students applications when we
40:19have seniors that are hoping to apply
40:21early decision and they were counting on
40:23an August test and they can't get to
40:25that there now there are fewer
40:26opportunities
40:28and it's also a real Equity
40:30issue David would you agree would
40:35completely and
40:37um you can go M I'll go after so I was I
40:40was just going to add on so this is and
40:44and I think that so college board has
40:48has been doing a massive amount to try
40:50to solve I'm not sure about the ACT side
40:52of it um but we've been in conversations
40:54with college board they've been doing a
40:56massive amount of work to try to make
40:58things happen out in California um and
41:00I'm you know I'm really proud of what
41:02the role that ntpa has had in that in
41:04that um we interfaced with college board
41:07at our recent um over the summer we
41:09interfaced uh with college board um
41:12about these issues and as directly as a
41:15result of that interaction um you may
41:17have noticed at some point 10,000 stud
41:20um 10,000 seats were added to the August
41:22test in California um and this was
41:25directly as a relationship of us talking
41:27about how bad the situation was so they
41:31very much want to help um I know that um
41:35for fact that they've gone so far as to
41:38do things like offer Staffing um
41:41particularly with these um the vendors
41:44at hotels these kinds of things that
41:46they've been working with that has been
41:47a huge problem in falling through one
41:50thing I wanted to say was um a
41:52conversation that that we and ntpa have
41:54been having is um it may not necessarily
41:58also be only
42:00school's responsibility so it is
42:03absolutely so I think uh at least that
42:06schools should have a responsibility to
42:07their students to open them to this
42:09opportunity but for example Stanford is
42:12saying um Stanford is saying that they
42:14want test scores but they have enormous
42:18auditoriums with wonderful Wi-Fi um and
42:21everything you possibly need to run a
42:22standardized test but they're not
42:24offering to offer a standardized test so
42:26the people who are benefiting most from
42:28these tests are not necessarily offering
42:31you know offering to help the situation
42:33so as a community as a whole we can
42:35necessarily look for possible possible
42:37ways to remedy the situation if the
42:39schools themselves don't want to um
42:41don't want to
42:43support this can I just add one thing so
42:46um I mean again
42:49I we could actually do like a whole
42:51podcast on this um
42:53yeah I noticed so this is a very
42:57important
42:58point so I mean I've talked to college
43:00board um and they've actually shown me
43:02the numbers on how much it costs for
43:05them when they host a site right when
43:07they have to um rent a hotel and things
43:11like that I asked them if I could share
43:13that publicly they said no but suffice
43:16to say they take a significant loss on
43:20every student that they offer a test to
43:23when it's a popup site the only way that
43:26you can make it work economically if
43:29you're going to have the SAT actually
43:31pay for itself is to hire the Proctors
43:35from the schools which is what they
43:36currently do so if we want National
43:39access to the SAT and ACT it has to be
43:42done through the schools the only other
43:44alternative is to do a gr GMAT elsat
43:48model where you're talking
43:49$250 per test you go to a Prometric
43:52Center so if we don't want the test to
43:54be $250 we want them to be $60 then we
43:58have to do them through schools and it
44:00has to be the school saying we want this
44:02opportunity for our kids the other thing
44:05is that 20% of students take the SAT and
44:08AC for sat for free 20% if you're on
44:12free or reduced lunch you take the test
44:14for free so these schools these under
44:17resource schools yes I understand it's
44:19it's difficult but these are very
44:22important tests for these students the
44:25the Proctors are paid the coordinators
44:26are paid maybe it's not enough but these
44:28kids need access to these tests these
44:31these high schools can provide that
44:32access because it's not just about
44:34getting into school it's also about
44:35affording it because at so many of these
44:37schools you get automatic scholarships
44:41and money if you get a certain score so
44:44that's why we're trying to talk to
44:45people like Sebastian and um you know
44:48nonprofits in California saying hey
44:50please approach these high schools just
44:53encourage them to give this access to
44:55their students so that's really the only
44:56Fe feasible way that we can do it within
44:59you know this time frame so that's why
45:01we're trying to reach out to to just
45:03anyone we can to get the word out about
45:05that well and it's an ongoing effort I
45:09think it's going to take some time to
45:11see those um efforts pay off and that's
45:15why at least it's nice to see you know
45:18like Carnegie melon and some of these
45:19schools saying well in the next class
45:22that this is going to because at least
45:24it gives them a year but those that said
45:26for this class class then then students
45:28are put in and buying particularly in
45:31States like California where my students
45:33have to go out of state to even find a
45:35testing because the whole concept within
45:38a public school system is that our
45:41Public Schools do not require the test I
45:44can go to UCLA I can go to UC Berkeley
45:46and not take an SAT or act so um and
45:50because of all those reason you cited I
45:52can see where the high schools aren't
45:53offering it because if it's not required
45:56my student still can go to the public
45:58schools we're not going to do that time
45:59and effort and expense as well so so
46:02there's there is a lot of work to do on
46:04that regard so um Carmen you had a
46:10question yeah so there it's just a bit
46:13of discussion kind of over the labor
46:15aspect of this are the facilities and IT
46:18staff also paid for their time to come
46:20in over the weekend I mean the
46:23conversations in the chat you Jeff
46:25Eisenberg points out that it's not like
46:28Proctors are paid $50 an hour they're
46:30paid a small amount to sit there and
46:33basically sit and read you know I mean
46:34it's important work it's critical work
46:36to get the test started to make sure
46:38that these tests adhere to uh
46:41standardized conditions so that it's
46:43fair for
46:44everybody uh you know again these are
46:47relationships that college board and act
46:49have had with schools for
46:51decades if if it's time for you know
46:56Public Schools or schools to renegotiate
46:58their contracts that's definitely
47:00something that's outside of our lane uh
47:03our position is simply I think the
47:05position that everybody has students who
47:08students from everywhere including
47:09California where even though the UC
47:11schools don't require tests it's not as
47:13if students in California don't apply to
47:16other schools and apply outside that
47:18system exactly it's that we see that
47:20public
47:21schools do all kinds of work to meet all
47:25kinds of needs for student students who
47:27are seeking life pursuing paths After
47:30High School after secondary education
47:32whether it's military it's industry it's
47:36career it's higher education and high
47:39schools do all of that you know high
47:41schools offer tech programs high schools
47:44invite military Recruiters in high
47:46schools host College reps coming in
47:49that's just the role of the high school
47:50that's the taxpayers support that in
47:53their
47:54areas what we're talking about the you
47:57know how much is fair for college board
48:00to pay for this that's between the
48:02school districts and college board like
48:04a lot of these questions are well
48:06outside our sphere of influence all we
48:09want is for students who want to be able
48:12to take tests to have access to tests
48:15within a reasonable distance you know
48:19whether you call that a mile 5 miles 10
48:22miles somewhere on a good Public
48:24Transportation Route whatever it is
48:27there should just be
48:29access I just want to say a note about
48:31California so one thing about the UC
48:33schools it's very misunderstood is that
48:36they call themselves testree that's
48:38their words but UC Berkeley for instance
48:41I mean they just recently on a podcast
48:44the assistant director of admissions
48:45there said they want AP exam scores and
48:49IB scores and for international students
48:52a-level um scores so they're not testree
48:56they might be sat act free how much is
48:59an AP exam test though it's like what
49:00$95 per exam so if you're going to acrew
49:04lots of AP exam scores that's more
49:06expensive than sat ACT scores so I mean
49:10the idea that we could do
49:13admissions highly selective competitive
49:16admissions without any objective
49:18criteria even the test free school the
49:21testree schools want test scores that
49:25that should basically tell you
49:26everything that you you need to know for
49:28it um so I would I would just say that
49:30for these UC
49:32schools the idea that they're Test free
49:34is not true and and and students parents
49:38College counselors teachers need to
49:40understand
49:41that that's a very good point too and um
49:45and it it does seem like especially here
49:48in California the the emphasis has
49:51shifted from sat or act to the AP or IB
49:55so so well and we've just kind of I knew
49:58this was going to be a great
50:00conversation and our hour was going to
50:02fly by I was not I was not surprised so
50:05in closing I would just like to hear
50:07from um I'm going ask a two-part
50:11question what advice and just go to each
50:14of you what advice would you give to
50:16counselors advisors at this point in
50:19juncture of where we're at in the whole
50:21College
50:22admissions environment um from a test
50:26prep perspective what advice what should
50:27we know and so for counselors and like
50:32uh private College counselors school
50:33counselors Educators right yeah because
50:38yeah because I we have Educators and all
50:41those different even in community based
50:43organization cbos and um and then what
50:47do we need to know about your
50:51organization and and what you know and
50:55what what can how can we we participate
50:58or support so what do we need to know
51:01and how can we contribute those are my
51:03two questions so David let's start with
51:05you sure um so the the message that I
51:09want to get out to all students all
51:11people is that these are achievement
51:13tests so they're testing students on the
51:16fundamentals of really
51:19important educational material that all
51:22students can benefit from is going to
51:24help by learning it it's it's not just
51:26random that they're testing students on
51:27the fundamentals of mathematics and
51:29grammar these are the things that they
51:30know that they've studied if students
51:33know these things they're going to do
51:34better on average in college and so I
51:37want all students to know they can do
51:40better on these exams not that they can
51:42gain these exams through test prep
51:44anyone who says that that oh you can
51:46gain it through test and tips and tricks
51:48you should run from those people because
51:50there's over 200 topics uh tested on
51:53both the SAT and ACT it is a lot of
51:56content but it's not an infinite amount
51:58of content every single student whether
52:01they're paying or not paying can learn
52:05these Concepts there's nothing hidden on
52:07it we're in the Golden Age of
52:08information you can go on KH Academy for
52:11free learn the you know see the
52:13questions that are going to the real
52:15questions from the college board that
52:17those question questions like it are
52:19going to show up on the real test you
52:21can go to YouTube videos and learn how
52:23to use Desmos which is on the new SAT
52:26you can get inexpensive prep books yes
52:28you can get a class or a private tutor
52:31but again it comes down to learning the
52:34knowledge and the skills needed to do
52:36better on these exams which will help
52:38you do better in life and that's that's
52:40open to everyone as long as they put the
52:41time in great great Mike what what
52:45recommendations so I'm going to follow a
52:47recommendation that a lot of my local
52:49counselors share with their students and
52:51I think it's just good advice to say
52:55that if a student
52:57is hoping to attend college a student
53:00should take the SAT or act they even if
53:03they don't need to submit it it's a
53:05Readiness test take the test the College
53:08Board and act both print really clear
53:11college readiness benchmarks which
53:13basically say that if you're below a
53:14certain threshold your chances of
53:16passing your first year introductory
53:19classes is is dangerously low if we
53:23follow the national student Clearing
53:25House data
53:26then roughly 25% of students who apply
53:29to fouryear school make fail to make it
53:32to the second year and we still have
53:35only 2third of students graduating after
53:40six or seven years which is to say
53:42nobody thinks it's going to be their
53:44teen who doesn't make it but the numbers
53:47say that you know one in four kids are
53:49not going to make it to the second year
53:51one in three students will not graduate
53:54at
53:54all the test valuable in that regard the
53:57same way we consider any of these
53:59assessments whether you need them or not
54:01whether you're going to act on that
54:02information or not you should have a
54:04sense about whether you can use that um
54:09for the and then we'll come back to the
54:10ntpa after we hear from Mackenzie on
54:13okay so I think the biggest things that
54:16I I mean uh David used a a trigger
54:19trigger phrase for us all which is tips
54:21and tricks um tips and tricks the number
54:24one thing that that a counselor can do
54:27to support their student with respect to
54:30standardized tests is to disabuse them
54:33of the idea of T tips and tricks and
54:35disabuse them idea of the idea of a good
54:38test taker so number one thing is just
54:41this this growth mindset of look okay
54:45it's absolutely true some component of
54:47our job is helping students understand
54:50strategy and opportunity cost of should
54:53I continue should I take this question
54:54or move on but that's maybe 20 you know
54:57in my personal experience 20 to 25% of
55:00what I'm teaching mostly what I'm
55:01teaching is punctuation grammar a
55:04discriminate in quadratic formulas um
55:06we're teaching material that they have
55:09already learned if they have gone
55:11through Algebra 2 right it's not this
55:14you know these tests are not adding
55:15anything on top of what they have
55:17already learned they've just forgotten
55:19it often often due to poor study skills
55:22doing at the last minute and then you
55:23forget it over a long period of time and
55:26so so what can what can best Aid a
55:28student's journey through this is not
55:31emphasizing the idea of being a good or
55:33a poor test taker it's simply a matter
55:36of what do we need to do to learn the
55:38material that is on this test and be
55:40prepared for it and there an you know
55:44there's an incredible broad range of
55:46different resources at this point um a
55:49lot of kids don't like to read anymore
55:51there are wonderful workbooks but then
55:53there are also you know um awesome video
55:56uh YouTube channels with all sorts of uh
55:59information that walk through things the
56:01Act and the SAT both provide a number of
56:05different practice tests that they have
56:06written for which they have provided
56:09answer explanations they're not the best
56:11answer explanations sometimes but their
56:13answer explanations and if a student
56:15understands that concept from Algebra 2
56:18or whatever it may be from they would
56:20understand the explanation um so you
56:22know this is something that blows my
56:24mind every time you know we just had it
56:26with the August test is students coming
56:28back and going oh my gosh what what was
56:30this math section what was this you know
56:32this came out of nowhere it didn't come
56:34out of nowhere we know what's on these
56:36tests and we know what's on it every
56:38time and and the SAT and ACT are both
56:41very transparent about what's on it if
56:43you prepare if you work through those
56:46practice tests that they've provided you
56:48will you will know what's on it too and
56:50you will know the extent to which you're
56:52prepared for it so this growth mindset
56:54moving away from am I good tester or not
56:57is really huge because we want to we
56:59want to support these students in their
57:00pathway here I think that's an important
57:04aspect to just take that kind of out of
57:06their vernacular and and focus on
57:09everybody can succeed in these you just
57:12need that um refresher or Preparation um
57:16one person Maria asked about free
57:18resources are there free re you're
57:20referring McKenzie mentioned a bunch
57:22that you know college board and act
57:24provide free resources Kad
57:26is fantastic um a lot of ntpa members
57:31create all kinds of videos on YouTube
57:34right like like there's all kinds of
57:36resources out there and there's there's
57:39there have never been more quality free
57:41resources for test preparation than
57:43there are
57:44today and that leads us right back into
57:46the question about the organization so
57:50um what can
57:52what can people join is there a website
57:55you know what's what's their next steps
57:57if they're interested in learning more
57:59about um National College test prep
58:03organization so the best way to find us
58:05is go to National test prep.org we're a
58:09nonprofit organization we really care
58:11about helping students and their
58:13families we have a directory that people
58:15can look at and look up hey is there
58:18someone who's a member of the national
58:20test prep National test prep Association
58:23near me or if not a lot of us do do
58:26virtual tutoring as well at least then
58:28you know you're going with a vetted
58:30expert who's going to help guide you
58:32through the process and you know if you
58:36an IEC then you should know that we
58:39created an organization in part to
58:41support you and to engage with you um
58:45some of you may have met me at the last
58:49ieca conference you might have met
58:51McKenzie at the last hea conference um
58:53we're really committed and you know all
58:55of us work hand inand would
58:57professionals work with professionals to
58:58provide a Continuum of Care to support
59:00not just the students that they're
59:02directly working with but their
59:04educational communities and we invite
59:07all of those opportunities to help
59:08support what you
59:10do well thank you so much for being with
59:13me today this has been a very Lively and
59:18informative conversation and filled with
59:21data and I think that's one thing that
59:23we find really important is because
59:26let's let's separate the feelings from
59:28the facts and have that opportunity so
59:31you've given us a lot of food for that
59:33on that and I thank you very much for
59:37joining me next week we're going to have
59:40Jasmine Gurley from uh the HBCU and
59:43we're going to talk about the impact of
59:45HBCU and education in society so I'm
59:49looking forward to that and then far the
59:52Friday forum is going to go on hiatus so
59:55um every everybody's busy everybody's
59:57going to be working you know full
59:59strength with students and so we'll come
1:00:02back the end of October and we're going
1:00:04to be talking about data again with
1:00:07athletes so Katie Anderson and there's
1:00:09going to be like we're going even have a
1:00:11bigger team that we had here today so
1:00:13that'll be I'll be back October 25th and
1:00:16in the meantime you guys can reach me in
1:00:18Cornwall so that's that's where I'm
1:00:20going to head in September so everybody
1:00:23have a great weekend have a great uh um
1:00:26Labor day and thank you again McKenzie
1:00:29Mike and David for being with me today
1:00:32and Carmen thanks for being here I know
1:00:34you're back in New York New Jersey U
1:00:36Back on the East Coast so we're glad and
1:00:39thank you everybody for being here today
1:00:41I have the best audience of all so have
1:00:44a good weekend thanks Sydney thank you
1:00:47thanks

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