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Segundo encuentro ¿ES el diezmo vigente? Oliver Coronado vs Ps Ortiz — Transcript

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0:00And I would like for this dialogue to
0:04see how far we can get, because we
0:06cannot stay here forever, or for three
0:08hours; let's try to make it less. But I
0:12would like this dialogue, above all
0:14things, to analyze the evidence from
0:17beginning to end, because that is the
0:19correct way to study the scripture.
0:23Okay, so
0:25>> it would be good for you to set your 5
0:26minutes and start,
0:27>> right? But I am laying the foundation.
0:29Okay, here we are not going to limit
0:31ourselves to what I said or what we
0:33already clarified. Here we have
0:36openness and I hope we can touch on
0:39specific points and respond to one
0:41another. We are going to have 5 minutes
0:44, I tell the audience. And I'll explain
0:46why. Because there are many people
0:48listening who do not know the scripture
0:50and have doubts. So, it is not just
0:53about you clarifying your position and
0:55me clarifying mine, it is much bigger
0:58than that. It is about helping our
1:01brothers also learn and learn how to
1:03search, to understand the scripture. So
1:05, I have not entered my point yet, I
1:07have not, I am only laying the
1:08foundation. So, I am going to start in
1:12advance, I am going to activate my time
1:14to begin. And the first point I am
1:19going to present to you, for which I
1:22would like to hear your objections, is,
1:26for example, once your worldview is
1:29understood, it is, for example, the
1:33origin of the tithe; because I find, in
1:37the way that you extend your argument,
1:42that you make a disconnection from the
1:46real origin of the tithe and, by
1:52disconnecting it, you then connect it
1:53to the Levitical service, and there is
1:55a quite complicated problem there
1:57because that is not the origin of the
1:59tithe. So, the first thing I am going
2:03to do is lay out the scripture and I
2:05want both Miguel and those listening to
2:08be able to follow me, and you can
2:10notice that in Genesis 14:19, you
2:15already know the story, you can read it
2:17. Abraham frees Lot, the Lord gives him
2:22the victory, and then the famous
2:25Melchizedek appears, king of Salem,
2:29priest of God. You can read it there in
2:33Genesis 14:18. And it says clearly, "He
2:37blessed him, saying, Blessed be Abram
2:40of God Most High, Creator of heaven and
2:42earth." There is an important anchor
2:46here because it is already preparing a
2:49context for us in advance to understand
2:52why Abraham is going to tithe, when
2:57since Genesis chapter 1 no evidence has
3:00been found that God has requested a
3:02tithe. So, you are going to find here
3:06that in Genesis 14:20 it says, "Blessed
3:09be God Most High, who delivered your
3:11enemies into your hand." In other words
3:15, Melchizedek is telling Abraham, "Look
3:17, since you serve the creator, since
3:19the creator is the owner of everything,
3:20of heaven and earth, that essential
3:22point, because He created everything.
3:26He delivered your enemies into your
3:27hands." I mean, you didn't even achieve
3:31it through your own ability. In fact,
3:34he was not a warrior. And so, under
3:37that context where there are no Levites
3:40, where there is no priesthood to
3:43directly sustain, Abraham gives him the
3:46tithes of everything. This is a
3:49recognition that God is the owner of
3:51everything. Now, there is a key point
3:54here. You will not find a requirement
3:57for tithing from Genesis 14 backwards.
4:01So I ask the question, where did
4:03Abraham get the idea that it was 10%,
4:05and the idea that he had to return 10%
4:07of the spoils to God? Why not 20%? Why
4:11not 30%? Why nothing? Well, it is very
4:15simple to understand. There had to be
4:18prior knowledge regarding commandments
4:20and laws, that Abraham knew them, and
4:22that it was not a new practice. I am
4:25100%convinced that the practice in
4:27Genesis 14 was not new; it was not the
4:29first time Abraham had done it. The
4:32thing is that a special event occurred
4:34and the Bible cites it. Moses does not
4:37write by mistake. In fact, if you read
4:39Genesis chapter 26 verse 5, and I am
4:41going to put it on the screen because
4:43that day I was lost, it was because I
4:45couldn't, and if I don't see the Bible,
4:47I get confused. And in Genesis 26: 5 it
4:50says, "Because Abraham obeyed My voice
4:53and kept My charge, My commandments, My
4:55statutes, and My laws." In other words,
4:58we have the guarantee that Abraham had
5:00heard, because faith comes by hearing,
5:02and hearing the word of God. And as a
5:06result of having heard that God had
5:09made that requirement, it then followed
5:11as a result that he handed over 10%.
5:15That is why it was something so
5:16specific. I have one minute left and I
5:18will give you a quick example that I
5:20can cover in a minute, and it is, for
5:21example, Genesis 4, when Abel brought
5:26the firstborn of his flock, their fat
5:29portions; there is no prior request.
5:33Scripture mentions it. Genesis 4,
5:35because Cain kills Abel and then this
5:38appears. This was not the first
5:40sacrifice Abel had made. In fact,
5:42Hebrews says that by faith Abel brought
5:44a better sacrifice. What that means is
5:47that, based on the same principle, Abel
5:50had received the information. In other
5:52words, tithing is anchored from the
5:54very beginning of creation. And that is
5:57the first point you have to explain, eh
5:59, dear Miguel, to your audience, why
6:02you believe the opposite, or why you
6:04don't believe it, because frankly, we
6:06didn't touch on that point, but I would
6:09like to hear your opinion. Why don't
6:11you believe that tithing is anchored
6:14from creation itself? I've run out of
6:17time. Ah,
6:20>> very well.
6:21>> I'll pass it to you.
6:22>> Yes, correct.
6:24>> Okay. Starting the timer. Very well.
6:29Well, I want to be clear and precise.
6:32You say that you don't want me to
6:35condition you, but you also cannot
6:39condition me to what you are asking of
6:41me. For what reason? Why can neither of
6:45us condition the other? Because I have
6:50a topic title that you and I agreed
6:52upon, and the title of the topic that
6:55you and I published is: Is tithing
6:57currently in force? That is the title
7:02of the topic. Therefore, that title
7:05should condition both you and me to
7:08focus on defending whether it is in
7:10force or not, for which you have the
7:13burden of proof to demonstrate. Because
7:17, since you believe it is in force, now
7:20you are taking me to the origin of
7:23tithing; you are conditioning us to
7:25talk about a subject you didn't invite
7:28me to speak on. Our dialogue should not
7:33be based on when tithing originated,
7:35because if you and I wanted to talk
7:37about that topic, we would have gone to
7:40that topic. Let's talk about the
7:43dialogue regarding when tithing
7:45originated, which is regressing to
7:47something that is not our own. So, do
7:51not condition me, I will not condition
7:53you, but let us be conditioned by the
7:55topic that you and I agreed to do and
7:57that the people are waiting for. Now,
8:02you have to use—and the only way used
8:06, listen to me well, to defend that
8:09something is in force—there are four
8:13ways to demonstrate it. If you want to
8:18add a fifth, you can do so, but I am
8:20going to tell you what they are in
8:23apologetics. I am going to give you a
8:26little lesson in apologetics, and I
8:28don't say it because you don't know it,
8:29but to help you remember it. When
8:33someone wants to demonstrate that a law
8:36is in force, they use four tools, and
8:39they are the four tools that theology
8:41gives us. I am not a theologian, but I
8:44study as a self-taught person. And here
8:47are the four tools that we all use when
8:49we want to defend whether something is
8:51still in force. Rule number one, if we
8:54want to know if something is valid
8:57after the death of Christ, we use
9:00Christological sources, that is, Jesus
9:03mentioning its continuity. Point number
9:06two, we are going to see if that
9:10commandment is apostolic. Number three,
9:16if we have historical evidence, and
9:19number four, necessary inferences or
9:23what we call implicit texts. And when I
9:27speak of implicit texts, no doctrine is
9:29built from one implicit text, but
9:32rather from several implicit texts.
9:35Therefore, you are going to have a big
9:37test tonight. Do you know what your
9:40tests are? You are going to show that
9:43tithing, according to the title, let us
9:45stick to the title of the topic, is
9:47this. Is there an apostolic commandment
9:51? Is there a Christological commandment
9:53for its continuity? Is there a
9:55historical commandment? Or is there an
9:57implicit text? Which the first and the
9:59second, uh, do not exist. There is no
10:02Christological or apostolic evidence of
10:03its continuity. Number three,
10:05historical evidence you have not wanted
10:08to touch so far, and implicit texts.
10:12That is the only thing you probably
10:14have tonight to show me and anyone you
10:16want to prove this topic to. Again, now
10:20I want to argue a little bit about what
10:22you are proposing to me. Again. I am
10:25going there in this minute I have left.
10:29I mean it seriously. You and I agreed
10:33to talk about whether tithing continues
10:35, do you understand me? So, brother, if
10:40you and I had agreed on the topic of
10:42when tithing originated, we would
10:45necessarily have to go see the origin.
10:49But then, why make a circular argument
10:54that we already did last time compared
10:56to today? So, you can use the four
11:01tools that I mentioned to talk about
11:03continuity, and if you have any other
11:05tool, go ahead. You can even use the
11:08argument of when tithing originated in
11:10the Melchizedek priestly ministry and
11:12present it with Hebrews chapter 7. That
11:15would be better. Is that clear? And I
11:20want you to take advantage of the 5
11:22minutes you have to not subject me to
11:24what you think, but to the title of the
11:26topic. Very well, I am starting my time
11:32and returning to the point. Uh, Miguel,
11:35you cannot condition me, and I am going
11:37to explain why. If you were to talk
11:40about the Sabbath and spoke to me about
11:42the validity of the Sabbath, the first
11:47thing you would do is go to Genesis,
11:49chapter 2, verses 1 through 3, because
11:51that is where the Sabbath has its
11:53beginning. And not only is it where the
11:57Sabbath has its beginning, but it is
11:59the strongest argument in favor of the
12:01Sabbath, which indicates that the
12:03Sabbath was not for Israel or for the
12:05Levites. The Sabbath was made for
12:08humanity. So, you wouldn't just fall
12:11back on Mark chapter 2, verse 28, where
12:13Jesus says, "I am Lord of the Sabbath
12:14and the Sabbath was made for man." No,
12:17you would have to go to Genesis chapter
12:202, from one onward to say, "Look, the
12:23Sabbath pre-exists from before sin,
12:28from creation itself." So, you cannot
12:32condition me with four tools, uh, you
12:34can call them whatever you want because
12:37you are conditioning the dialogue.
12:40Furthermore, you are not answering my
12:42question because my question is clear
12:44and direct. I asked you a question. For
12:47me to be able to reach the present, I
12:50need you to first recognize, and this
12:53is a key point, whether or not the
12:56tithe belongs to the Levites in the
12:59true sense of its starting point. I
13:04think you don't have the argument to
13:05support it. It's my opinion, because in
13:09fact, I can quote another text that you
13:12know and that surely you aren't going
13:14to like very much. Uh, sorry, I went
13:18off track. You aren't going to like uh
13:22this text much, excuse me, but one that
13:27you know very well. And again the
13:32argument, here there is no priestly
13:36argument. So, I cannot fall into, I’m
13:40going to call it that, it’s going to
13:43sound a bit, uh, harsh. I cannot fall
13:48into the game of you leading me in your
13:50argument to believe that the tithe
13:52belonged to the Levitical service and
13:55died with the Levitical service when I
13:57find that the tithe is much, much
13:59earlier and in fact is not connected to
14:01shadows or even to sacrifice. I mean,
14:05you don't find in the first two
14:07mentions that the tithe is associated
14:09with shadows or sacrifice. You find
14:11that the tithe is associated with the
14:13fact that God is the owner of
14:14everything and he has the right to ask
14:16for a portion of what he gives us. So,
14:19in Genesis 28:22, look at what Jacob
14:21says to him. And this stone which I
14:24have set for a sign will be God's house
14:25. And of all that You give me, I will
14:28surely set apart the tithe for You. It
14:32isn't saying there to support the
14:34Levites so that we can support this. No
14:37, no, no, no. of all that You give me.
14:41Actually, that text particularly
14:44catches my attention because the
14:46scripture points out beforehand that we
14:49are not giving God anything; we are
14:52returning to him what he has given us.
14:57So, in the first place, you have to
15:00demonstrate to the audience and to me
15:03that that tithing did not originate
15:08independently of the Levites. And so,
15:13since it did not originate from the
15:15Levites, you have to explain under what
15:17arguments tithing was born, because my
15:19argument is that God is the owner of
15:22everything. And for that reason, he
15:27demanded the tithe from Abraham and
15:29Jacob, not in a Levitical context, not
15:32in a context of shadows, not in a
15:34priestly context. Nowhere here does the
15:39tithe prefigure Christ, something that
15:41you have to recognize and it is very
15:43important, it does not prefigure Christ
15:44. So, I think that is the starting
15:49point, because you cannot talk about
15:51what happens in the New Testament
15:53without having a clear base in the Old
15:55Testament. And you know that is a basic
15:59principle of theology from the start.
16:03You know it very well, but you are
16:05overlooking it, I mean, you are not
16:07giving it the importance from the point
16:09of view that it deserves. I mean,
16:14tithing in its origin does not depend
16:17on Levites; there are no Levites, no
16:21Mosaic law, no Sinai, no. God simply
16:25says, "Of what I give you, you have to
16:27return to me." Why? Because I am the
16:30owner. Ah, okay, you already set the
16:37time for me.
16:38>> Yes, it is just that this is going to
16:40be like this because it doesn't give
16:41much chance for problems.
16:43>> Look, I am telling you the point for
16:47the second time. I am not conditioning
16:50you to go where I want, but rather the
16:53topic is conditioning us on where we
16:56must go. And the topic we are
16:59discussing is whether tithing continues
17:03, not where it originates. Whether
17:06tithing continues. So that is what
17:08excites me in this conversation and
17:10that is what the people are also
17:12wanting. How can you demonstrate,
17:15Oliver, that the Adventist Church to
17:18which you belong, and in this case you
17:20yourself, how do you show the evidence
17:22that tithing is valid, not where it
17:24originates? Now you talk to me a little
17:28bit. If you want to talk about the
17:29origin of the Sabbath, you tell me, you
17:31have to go to Genesis. But the thing is
17:32, I didn't come here to talk about the
17:34origin of the Sabbath. If I were
17:36talking about the topic of the
17:37continuity of the Sabbath, I wouldn't
17:39go to Genesis. Why? Because the person
17:41I'm talking to would say, "Hey, I'm not
17:43talking to you about where the Sabbath
17:45originated. Talk to me about its
17:46continuity." And I would go to three,
17:48to three sources, I would go. First, to
17:52look for a Christological mandate in
17:54some way. Second, to see if there is an
17:56apostolic mandate. Third, to review
17:58historical sources. And fourth, to use
18:01implicit texts. And with these four
18:03tools, I demonstrate that the Sabbath
18:05does continue. The issue here is
18:07whether it continues, not where it
18:09originates. So, I'm not the one
18:12imposing the condition on you, rather
18:14the dialogue and the agreement we made
18:17is—what is the title of the topic? Is
18:20the tithe valid today? Are you
18:23understanding me now? But fine, I feel,
18:28I am feeling that your argument is to
18:32take me, as I told you, back. But okay,
18:37now I am going to go there so you can
18:39move past that argument. I am going to
18:40tell you, pay close attention to what I
18:42am going to tell you. You say it like
18:45this: the tithe is not of the Levites,
18:48but rather it is before the Levites.
18:52That's fine. I grant you that, because
18:55I don't disagree with that. I grant you
18:58that the tithe originated before the
19:00Levites. Yes. Look, there are more than
19:0312 people here. I grant you that. The
19:07tithe appears with Jacob. The tithe
19:08appears with Abraham. I grant you that,
19:10look, so you can move forward. Point
19:12number two. You say, since it begins
19:15before the Levites, it means it has to
19:18continue. Not necessarily. Circumcision
19:21also begins before the Levites, but not
19:23because of that. Is it continuous. So
19:26your argument fails there. But
19:29regardless, let me grant you that the
19:32tithe even originated in Eden, as you
19:36point out. Let me grant you that.
19:40That's fine. The tithe originated in
19:42Eden according to how you think. I
19:46don't know. If for you it originated
19:49before sin, after sin, whatever you
19:51want to tell me, I will concede, I will
19:53follow your lead, and from now on I
19:56will say like you do, that the tithe
19:58did originate before. I have never said
20:01that the tithe appeared with the
20:04Levites. Very clearly, in the previous
20:06topic I told you, the tithe is in
20:08Abraham. I acknowledge that there is
20:09tithing in Jacob. I am not against that
20:13, but basically, what I want to reflect
20:16on with you is that if that tithe
20:19appearing before the law continues
20:22after the death of Christ, then look, I
20:25am giving you every advantage now so
20:29you don't get stuck in the past and can
20:32come with me to the point of tonight's
20:35topic. Are you following? Very well,
20:40now that I’ve cleared the pipes, I
20:42think you’ll flow and won't take me
20:44back. Very well. Alright. And now that
20:48I have 45 seconds here, I didn't
20:50condition you to four things for you to
20:52interpret. That's why I said, you can
20:54interpret whatever you want. I simply
20:56said that according to the rules of
20:58hermeneutics, not my rules, there are
21:00four ways to prove if something is
21:02valid. Christological mandate,
21:06apostolic mandate, historical data,
21:09inferential texts, or implicit biblical
21:12texts. Use the tools, Oliver. I am not
21:17conditioning you to those, I am simply
21:19telling you that you can use whichever
21:21you want, but those are the ones I use
21:23and what any serious student of the
21:25Holy Scriptures uses to prove if
21:26something is valid or not. So, granting
21:30you all this, let's move a step forward
21:33.
21:35>> Very well. I am going to start the time
21:37again. It is active now, and I will
21:39cite the scripture once more. And I
21:44cannot go from Genesis to Revelation in
21:475 minutes. We are doing it in pauses
21:50because I want you to, uh, build your
21:53narrative at the same time. In
21:55Leviticus 27:30, once you recognize
21:58that the tithe belongs to God—because
22:01that is the key point, and it belongs
22:03to God because we give back from what
22:06He gives us, not because we own
22:08anything. Leviticus 27:30 confirms it.
22:13Notice that the scripture says, "And
22:14all the tithe of the land, whether of
22:16the seed of the land or of the fruit of
22:17the trees, is the Lord’s." I mean,
22:21this is a key point because here we
22:23leave out the Levites, we leave out
22:25everyone else, and it is explained that
22:27it belongs to the Lord, and clearly
22:29Genesis laid the foundation because He
22:31is the owner of everything. And it also
22:35adds an interesting thing, it is a
22:37dedicated thing, the word kadosh in
22:40Hebrew that you know very well, holy,
22:42set apart for holy use. Now, notice
22:46that God says, "It is mine." It is mine
22:49because I am the creator. Now I remind
22:52you of a word I used in the previous
22:54topic, and it is that God now says: "
22:57Now then, since it is mine, I do with
22:59what is mine whatever I want." Based on
23:03what the Levites did at an important
23:06moment in history in Numbers 18:21, God
23:12gives a destination for the tithe. It
23:15doesn't mean it ceases to be His, what
23:17it means is that He gives it a
23:19destination. And here I have given the
23:23children of Levi all the tithes as an
23:25inheritance for their ministry. Do not
23:28forget that, because it is a key point
23:30that I will also return to later to
23:32answer your question. For how much?
23:35Here is the reason why. Notice that it
23:38is very different to have the Bible in
23:40front of you now, because this is very
23:41similar to what Paul says in First
23:42Corinthians 9. inasmuch as they serve
23:45in the ministry of the tabernacle. So,
23:49here again you have the foundation. God
23:52is the owner, and since human beings
23:55have the duty to return to God what
23:57belongs to Him, which is 10%—and that
23:59seems perfectly fair to me—God takes
24:01the tithe and invests it in the
24:03spiritual health of His people. He does
24:08it like this, He invests it. Notice how
24:12wonderful, how beautiful that is,
24:13because God wants the best for us, but
24:18that does not mean the Levites were
24:19owners without conditions. The Levites
24:22were conditioned. In fact, the whole
24:25people were conditioned, something you
24:29know and that appears in Exodus chapter
24:3319, where God tells the people clearly
24:37and says, "Ah, give me a second, I went
24:43too far, it's a bit further back. It's
24:45just that I have a very large Bible and
24:48that...okay, God tells the people that
24:51they will be a special people, but
24:56under conditions. Listen, this Bible is
24:59tangled up here, under conditions. And
25:01what is the condition? That they hear
25:03His word and listen to His voice. That
25:06is important for you to understand. I
25:07mean, it wasn't something that didn't
25:10have conditions, but I want to finish
25:13this point because I'm running out of
25:16time. And it's around here. Let me, I
25:20don't want to leave without presenting
25:23the point here. Uh, I want you to come,
25:29come with me to Deuteronomy 14:23 and
25:31here you will find the objective.
25:35Deuteronomy 14:23. And you shall eat
25:41before the Lord your God, in the place
25:43where He chooses to make His name abide
25:45, the tithe of your grain and your new
25:47wine and your oil, of the firstlings of
25:49your herds and your flocks; that you
25:51may learn, here is the key, one of the
25:53important keys, to fear the Lord. That
25:58is the key point. Within tithing, there
26:03is a calling, a principle of
26:05faithfulness where God tests whether
26:08you are faithful or not, whether you
26:11respect Him or not. Whether He gives it
26:15to the Levites is not your problem.
26:17Your problem is to return it. If the
26:20Levites are misusing it, don't worry.
26:23God will set things in order. In due
26:24time, He will do it. But I want to
26:27pause at this point, saying that I am
26:30moving forward from Genesis and
26:31reaching the point where God is the
26:33owner, but He grants it to the Levites.
26:40Very well. Uh, I am going to say the
26:45following. You wasted these 5 minutes
26:49because, in fact, I do believe in the
26:52validity of tithing in the time of the
26:55Levites. I mean, I am not against that.
26:59I told you very clearly, Brother Oliver
27:01, last time. The issue is not whether
27:04tithing was valid during the time of
27:06the Levites. For the third or fourth
27:09time, I tell you. The issue is whether
27:13tithing continues after the death of
27:15Christ in the early church. That is the
27:18issue. You bring me the argument: the
27:21tithe belongs to Jehovah. And because
27:24it says the tithe belongs to Jehovah,
27:26it means it is automatically valid. But
27:30notice what Exodus says, chapter 13,
27:32verse 2. Consecrate to Me all the
27:37firstborn, whatever opens the womb
27:40among the children of Israel, both of
27:43man and of beast; it is Mine, it is
27:46Jehovah's. Now, the text here also uses
27:50the same phrase, that every firstborn
27:52of the offspring of animals is
27:54Jehovah's. I am convinced that for the
27:58firstborn son born today, you don't
28:01have to pay, you don't pay to redeem
28:06him. It is a law that does not apply,
28:08even though the text says," it is Mine,
28:10it is Jehovah's. "In the book of
28:14Leviticus 23, allow me to read it,
28:17verse number five, it says the
28:21following. On the fourteenth day of the
28:27first month, at twilight, the Passover
28:30is Jehovah's. The text says," The
28:34Passover is Jehovah's. "The same
28:36expression that speaks of the tithe of
28:39Jehovah. Here it also speaks of the
28:41Passover of Jehovah. If your argument
28:44is that because the tithe is Jehovah's,
28:47I have to continue it until now, you
28:49also have to keep the Passover, since
28:52the Passover also says it is Jehovah's.
28:55And I am convinced that neither you nor
28:58any Adventist keeps the Passover
28:59because you believe it is annulled,
29:01even though the text says it is
29:03Jehovah's. Leviticus 23 also says in
29:09verse 4 as follows. These are the
29:13feasts of the Lord, holy convocations,
29:16which you shall proclaim at their
29:19appointed times. And there were seven
29:23solemn feasts there. Those solemn
29:27feasts, no Adventist nor you keep them,
29:29Oliver. But, but you should keep them
29:33because it says here that it is the
29:35Lord's, because your argument is that
29:37the tithe is the Lord's. Since it is
29:41the Lord's, I have to be faithful to
29:43the Lord in tithing. But your argument
29:47collapses because in the expression"
29:50this is the Lord's, "I don't always
29:52have to arbitrarily label it as in
29:55effect, since in that case you would
29:57have to point to all the things I'm
30:00showing you as continuous. Now I'll
30:04take this minute I have. You say,"
30:08Tithing is faithfulness to God. "Let's
30:12not be selective. In the Bible, you
30:17will never find the phrase," The tithe.
30:21"Only that whoever observes that is
30:24synonymous with faithfulness, right?
30:29You will find in Deuteronomy 28 that
30:31faithfulness is obedience to each one
30:34of the active commandments. Because
30:38you're not going to tell me that only
30:40exclusively tithing is something that
30:42is faithfulness, and where do we put
30:44all the other commandments? Everything
30:48counts as faithfulness to God.
30:51Therefore, the argument that tithing,
30:53that the one who tithes is faithful to
30:56God, is being selective by telling
30:59people that we focus on one commandment
31:01above the others, and in the law, all
31:04the commandments that God has commanded
31:07to be kept cannot be discarded.
31:10Everything is faithfulness to God and
31:13all must be kept. Therefore, that
31:16argument doesn't work because it would
31:18be selectively mentioning only one of
31:20the 613 commandments and saying that is
31:23faithfulness, and what about the rest?
31:27So let's say, let's be sincere and say,
31:30every active commandment, obeying it is
31:32faithfulness. Or is it just one?
31:37Exclusively tithing. No, not anywhere.
31:43>> Right. Uh, beforehand you cited many
31:48things that are in a sequence of
31:51biblical symbology and of course that
31:57uh can be understood as some kind of
32:03manipulation—in the good sense—of
32:06the information to try to guarantee
32:10something that really, looking at it
32:13through a worldview, can be explained
32:16easily. I am going to take a rather
32:21long leap. Uh, excuse me, my Bible had
32:25flipped because I'm at 50%size. Here is
32:28the condition I spoke to you about. Now
32:31then, if you will indeed obey my voice
32:33and keep my covenant, then you shall be
32:36a special treasure to me above all
32:38people; for all the earth is mine, and
32:40you shall be to me a kingdom of priests
32:43and a holy nation. Okay? I want you to
32:48notice that here there is a condition
32:50that you know very well, a condition
32:52that unfortunately Israel did not keep.
32:55Now I am going to take a big leap, a
32:58big leap, because here you find a
33:00mission, a mission that will be
33:02repeated later on. Do not forget, all
33:06the earth is mine. You will always find
33:09it in that line of thinking. I make a
33:12covenant with you; you will be my
33:14special treasure, a kingdom of priests,
33:16a holy people. You shall speak all
33:19these words to the people of Israel. In
33:22fact, if you read Psalm 67, you will
33:25find that God blesses Israel precisely
33:28so that Israel may be a light to the
33:32world, because that was their mission.
33:36That was their mission, and God needed
33:38it. And you can find it here. It says,"
33:41God be merciful to us and bless us. ""
33:44Make His face shine upon us, "not so
33:47that you get rich and I get rich, but"
33:50that Your way may be known on earth,
33:53Your salvation among all nations. "This
33:57was Israel's mission: to preach the
33:59Messiah, to point to that firstborn you
34:02cited and named, which pointed to Jesus
34:04and was a very complete symbology. But
34:08now I am going to make a quick jump so
34:10you don't get impatient and can take it
34:13easy. And I am going to go to Matthew
34:16chapter 21, and I will go to verse 35
34:18onwards, quickly. In verse 35, Christ
34:23tells a parable directed at the people
34:26of Israel, where there is a householder
34:28who planted a vineyard—it is the land
34:31—and it indirectly represents Israel
34:34surrounded by a fence. He digs a
34:38winepress in it that indirectly
34:40represents the sanctuary; we can study
34:42that sometime. And, excuse me, he built
34:44a tower; it represents the sanctuary.
34:46The winepress has its own
34:48representation. And I want you to note
34:50this, because here is the point I have
34:52been citing to you from the beginning.
34:55And he leased it to some tenants and
34:57went away. Note that" leased it "means
34:59that the tenants have to return it
35:01because the land is his. I mean, look
35:03at how the principle is complete,
35:05Miguel. I mean, I want us to be sincere
35:08here and let the Holy Spirit speak.
35:11Look at how the principle is complete.
35:13He leased it to some tenants and went
35:15away. And when the time of the fruit
35:17drew near, he sent his servants to the
35:18tenants to receive its fruit. But you
35:21already know the story; they didn't do
35:24it. He did it again; they didn't do it.
35:28He sent more, and they killed them.
35:30Finally, he sends the son, and when
35:32they see the son, they kill him outside
35:35the vineyard. And Christ throws a
35:38question at them. When the Lord of the
35:41vineyard comes, then, what will He do
35:43to those tenants? And look at how they
35:45sentence themselves. They said to Him,"
35:49He will destroy those wicked men
35:51without mercy and will lease his
35:53vineyard to other tenants who will pay
35:55him the fruit at the proper time. "Dear
35:58brother, I tell you this sincerely. You
36:01have here the gospel synthesized by
36:03Christ. Christ does not say," No, no,
36:06no, there will be no more tenants,
36:07there will be no more vineyard, and
36:09there will be no more request for them
36:11to pay anything. "No, no, no. This text
36:14is a text that presents continuity.
36:18That is, God is saying," Since the
36:20people did not fulfill Exodus 19 and
36:23were not faithful, I will now take the
36:25tithe, which is mine, and I will use it
36:28for another group of people who will
36:31indeed give me the fruit at the proper
36:33time, because the first ones did not. "
36:37So, listen to me, brother, I tell you
36:39one thing, you have an incredible
36:41continuity. My brother Oliver Coronado,
36:46it is the first time in my life. It is
36:49the first time in my life, believe me,
36:51I have never heard that the book of
36:54Matthew 21, the wicked tenants, the
36:58parable of the wicked tenants, is an
37:00application for the tithe. I have never
37:03heard that in my life. Point number one
37:05. Point number two, there is no
37:08biblical commentary, not even your own,
37:11that takes the wicked tenants and uses
37:14it as the continuity of the tithe.
37:19Third, I doubt there is a theologian
37:22within your own church and within my
37:25own church who has used the parable of
37:28the wicked tenants as an allusion for
37:31the continuity of the tithe. Absolutely
37:35disconnected completely, do you
37:38understand me? Point number two, this
37:41parable, because I have to explain it
37:43to you, is not talking about the tithe
37:46at all, it is simply talking about
37:48something that happened in those times.
37:51In the first century, Jesus used what
37:53existed. In the first century, many
37:56people entrusted their estates to
37:58overseers and, obviously, they sent
38:00exactly what is happening in the story;
38:02and, obviously, this is a
38:04representation of Israel and the
38:06judgment that would come, because He
38:08sent one and they killed him, He sent
38:10another and they killed him: those were
38:12the prophets, and in the end, He sends
38:14the Son and they are going to kill Him.
38:18So, what the Lord comes looking for is
38:20fruit, fruits of repentance. Because
38:24John himself says, he compares Israel
38:26to it exactly, he tells them that if
38:28those trees, which are them, do not
38:31have fruits of repentance, they would
38:33be cut down. The context is speaking
38:36symbolically about Israel, its
38:38disobedience, not bearing fruit for God
38:41, and its total extermination in the
38:43sense of the description of the year 70
38:45. Therefore, my brother Oliver,
38:49honestly, up until now I, I prepared
38:52myself very well for this dialogue. I
38:56prepared quite a lot. I didn't prepare
38:58the first time because you caught me
39:00off guard, but for this dialogue, yes,
39:03I did prepare, but I didn't prepare to
39:06disagree with parables that have
39:08absolutely nothing to do with tithing.
39:10Here I would like you to provide a
39:15stronger argument next time, one that
39:17at least indirectly approaches the
39:19continuity of tithing. This is not even
39:22explicit, nor implicit, nor anything. I
39:26am honestly telling you this seriously.
39:28For what? I give you some advice as
39:31friends and brothers so that you can
39:32make the most of the time you have with
39:34me. Because remember, for my part, I'll
39:39tell you in front of more than 13
39:41people, for my part in this dialogue on
39:44the validity of tithing that I've
39:46engaged in at your invitation both
39:48times you've asked, I haven't found
39:51what I want. No, no, I want the
39:54evidence you promised me. I mean, you
39:57promised to show me the topic of
39:59continuity. So, for that, I need you to
40:03use texts that at least speak of a
40:05continuity, in a way, even if it is
40:07indirect. I told you that. So,
40:10therefore, my brother Oliver, here you
40:12use the text," The earth is mine. ""
40:14Yes, the earth is mine, "says Jehovah,"
40:15The earth is the Lord's, and everything
40:17in it. "Of course, I don't deny it
40:19because throughout the entire Bible I
40:21recognize that, and every time we
40:23preach we teach that this is why we
40:25give back to the Lord. Yes, giving, as
40:29I told you, our giving is not abolished
40:32. So, therefore, we recognize it, and
40:35that is why we give back to the Lord
40:36what is the Lord's in the sense of the
40:38offerings we give. Yes. And we don't
40:42give two things, offerings and then
40:44again ask the church for a tithe, right
40:46? Our giving is here, do you understand
40:49me? So that is how the church was
40:51established in the first centuries. But
40:54anyway, look, I kindly ask you, brother
41:00Oliver, that if you have brought the
41:03arguments tonight, you can present them
41:06to me and present them to all of us;
41:09because, believe me, I have read many
41:12comments that what we need from you,
41:17and today you are under a lot of
41:19pressure regarding this topic. I have,
41:23you have the pressure of many people
41:25who are asking you, show us its
41:27validity. This parable doesn't talk
41:31about tithing anywhere, do you
41:33understand me? If you don't want to
41:36present an argument and you don't
41:38present it now, I will present it in
41:41the next one. Well, first, uh, to
41:46clarify that, uh, what I promised you
41:49was that I would be here on the show. I
41:52didn't promise that I would give you
41:54the arguments you are looking for. I am
41:56giving you arguments that are biblical.
41:58Notice how you disconnect Psalm 67. I
42:02mean, you use scripture, uh, many times
42:05for convenience and I apologize for
42:07being so sincere, because you say when
42:09you think it is important that the
42:12tithe was very important for the
42:14Levites and the ministry of the Levites
42:16. Here I present the mission to you.
42:19May God have mercy on us. Psalm 67: 1.
42:23May He bless us, may He make His face
42:25shine upon us, that your way may be
42:27known on earth, your salvation among
42:28all nations. Here you have it clearly.
42:32What God asked of Israel, the psalm is
42:34telling him," If you keep my covenant
42:37and hear my voice, you will be my
42:39special treasure. "I have cited it to
42:42you again and put it on the screen. Now
42:45I have a little more time to show it to
42:47you. Matthew 21. But you, H, and I say
42:50this with much respect, I don't like to
42:53be so informal, but, uh, unfortunately,
42:56it seems like (give me a second), hm,
42:59it seems like you don't, you don't
43:02manage to see the worldview and I can't
43:05, I can't force you there, because here
43:08the parable is telling you the story of
43:11Israel; it is telling you that He gave
43:14them a vineyard to care for, brother.
43:18It is telling you what their job is. He
43:22leased it to some tenants, went away,
43:24they had to pay him his fruit, there
43:26had to be a result. Who had to provide
43:29the result? The whole nation and the
43:31Levites. Preach to the world. That is
43:33what they were paid for, especially the
43:35Levites. So, you tell me it has nothing
43:38to do with the tithe. That's fine, I
43:40won't insist because it seems it has to
43:42say" tithe "for you to see that the
43:44tithe is there. Then he sent other
43:47servants, they killed them. Finally,
43:49they killed the son. I repeat it to you
43:51again, because I am going to take
43:53another step forward here. Then the
43:55Lord comes and gives them a sentence.
43:59He will lease his vineyard to other
44:01tenants so that they pay the fruit at
44:03its time. And that happened. My brother
44:06, do you know that in Matthew chapter
44:0827 I'm going to go to chapter 28
44:13instead, and I'm going to verse 19.
44:16Christ now commissions not Israel as
44:18such, because Israel ceased to be the
44:21chosen people. Therefore, go and make
44:25disciples of all nations. Now, Psalm 67
44:27rings a bell. Bless us, O God, so that
44:30the world may hear you, so that the
44:32world may know you, baptizing them in
44:34the name of the Father, and of the Son,
44:36and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them
44:38to keep all the things that I have
44:40commanded you. And behold, I am with
44:42you always, even to the end of the
44:43world, and I will give you the tithe.
44:46If you were to read it that way, you
44:47would say, Oliver, you're right, but
44:49you don't want to see it as implicit.
44:51You have to see it as explicit. And
44:54brother, sometimes I see you use the
44:56explicit well and the implicit well,
44:58but this time it seems you aren't
44:59consistent, your train of thought
45:01breaks. And notice one thing, there is
45:04continuity here. The owner of the
45:07vineyard hires other laborers. And I
45:09ask you a question, why does there have
45:12to be a change in the support system?
45:16Why does there have to be a change if
45:18the tithe remains God's and if I am
45:20called to return it? Why does God have
45:23to break His organized system? Because
45:27the Levites did what they wanted. Well,
45:29what can you do? Now God presents the
45:33opportunity to a new people, a people
45:35who had been called, which the apostle
45:38Paul verifies and presents clearly,
45:40saying that unfortunately, due to
45:42Israel's failure, God had to call the
45:44Gentiles. You cannot tell me," Well,
45:48Oliver, then now it's every man for
45:49himself, let them see how they are
45:51going to support themselves. God will
45:53provide for them in a different way. "
45:55No, you have to prove that from the
45:58Levitical service to the apostolic
46:00service, you have to prove that there
46:03was a breakdown of the plan, but so far
46:06I have shown you that the plan remains
46:09sustained; because God doesn't say:" I
46:12am going to change the plan, I am
46:14simply going to give the vineyard to
46:17other laborers who will give me its
46:19fruit in its season. "So there you have
46:25it, brother, a clear golden line that
46:28tells you that God now destines what is
46:32His to another group that will do what
46:35God asks. You won't find anywhere that
46:39God eliminates it, because the fact
46:41that He doesn't say it doesn't mean God
46:43eliminated it. This, this 5-minute
46:51intervention, uh. Honestly, it didn't
46:56add anything. It's just the same, the
46:59same as your argument from 5 minutes
47:01ago. This is a continuation of the same
47:05thing. You focused on the same parable,
47:08but since I see you don't want to put
47:10me in a tough spot, I don't know, you
47:12haven't presented an argument to me;
47:14you could have perhaps used Matthew
47:1623:23 even. That is an argument that at
47:19least speaks about the tithe, and I
47:21recommend it for another intervention.
47:23Yeah, that text would have been more
47:25coherent. But fine, look, I'm helping
47:28you so you can push me. I need someone
47:31to give me arguments, because the point
47:33is that people want to see arguments,
47:35the debatable texts being presented.
47:40But fine, let's see, I have some
47:42interference here. Please, stop the
47:45banging downstairs or or
47:48>> please. Let's keep calm and maintain
47:51our composure. Go ahead, Miguel. I want
47:53to say the following here. First of all
47:56, I am going to argue about something.
47:59You cited the book of Deuteronomy to
48:01speak to me about the tithe and that
48:04they would eat of it in their cities,
48:06right? That is the tithe you
48:10unconsciously defended today. But that
48:15tithe was the third-year tithe, Oliver.
48:17You needed to have corrected or read
48:19that. So, when you talk to me about
48:22that tithe and argue for its continuity
48:25, you would get into serious trouble
48:27because, honestly, that tithe is very
48:29requested in the Bible. For example, in
48:33the book of Malachi 3: 8-10, it speaks
48:35of the tithe that the whole nation was
48:38robbing. But in the context, in chapter
48:423, verse 5, it says that they were
48:45obviously being unjust to the widow,
48:47the poor, the orphan, and the foreigner
48:50. It says it literally in verse 5, in
48:55the context of Malachi chapter 3. Now,
48:59the big question is, would a person be
49:02cursed because they didn't give the
49:04tithe under the Law of Moses? Yes, they
49:08were obviously cursed because they
49:09didn't give the tithe, but they were
49:11also cursed if they denied the rights
49:13of the widow, the poor, the orphan, and
49:14the foreigner. According to Deuteronomy
49:1827, verse 25 or verse 19, sorry. And
49:22notice that this text—let me read it,
49:25I hope time doesn't run out—
49:27Deuteronomy, speaking in the same
49:30context, 27, verse 19, says the
49:32following:" Cursed is the one who leads
49:34astray, "let's see, where is it?"
49:37Cursed is the one who perverts the
49:39justice due the foreigner, the
49:40fatherless, and the widow. "And all the
49:42people said," Amen. "In other words, it
49:45wasn't just the person who didn't give
49:47the tithe who was cursed, but also the
49:49one who didn't distribute to those in
49:50need. So, all of this is interesting.
49:55If the one who doesn't give is a thief,
49:57then not giving to those to whom it is
49:59distributed also falls into the same
50:01line of thinking. My dear Oliver, I
50:05want to tell you that one is not only
50:07cursed for not keeping the tithe, since
50:10Deuteronomy 28 says that you are cursed
50:13for not keeping any of the current
50:15commandments that God has given. So
50:19when they tell me," Cursed is he who
50:20does not give the tithe, "I say, excuse
50:22me, don't be exclusive. Cursed is he,
50:25according to this Deuteronomy 28,
50:28everyone who does not remain in the
50:31whole law, that is, in all that law
50:34current now. So, it is also cursed,
50:37let's not just be exclusive. Ah, now
50:41let's see, according to polls, my
50:47brother Oliver, of the evangelical
50:49churches—I don't want to touch yours
50:52—all the evangelical churches that
50:54preach the validity of tithing do not
50:57give to the widow, the poor, and the
50:59orphan. Therefore, to them I say,
51:01thieves, I know the evangelical church,
51:03I don't know yours. I couldn't say
51:05anything about that. I imagine they do.
51:07Point number two. Not even 30%of all
51:12evangelical churches that believe in
51:15the validity of tithing actually tithe.
51:19Probably in your church it exists 100%.
51:24And these people who write to us here,
51:26comments as if they were not from
51:28Christians who defend the validity of
51:30tithing, if they don't return the tithe
51:33for even one single month, they are
51:35under a curse and are robbing God under
51:37the worldview of my brother who
51:39presents it here. Therefore, I spoke of
51:42such an argument because I could not—
51:45I could not follow you in any argument
51:47you put forward. Eh, I'll start the
51:52time again. Well, don't think that I
51:55cited what I cited from Deuteronomy
51:58without knowing what I was citing. Eh,
52:02I'm going to tell you something
52:04sincerely, I might surprise you, but
52:07I'm keeping quiet. You know that in
52:10Venezuela they say sometimes you have
52:12to play the alligator. The alligator
52:14goes to the bottom and plays dead and
52:17that is where it is most dangerous. You
52:20know that one of the quotes you also
52:23just cited, and I'll take advantage of
52:25the fact that you cited it, Matthew
52:2823:23:" Woe to you, scribes and
52:30Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe
52:34mint and dill and cumin, and have left
52:36undone the weightier matters of the law
52:38: justice and mercy and faith. "These
52:41you ought to have done, without leaving
52:44the others undone. Notice how
52:47interesting it is that the tithe is
52:50present here, right? In terms of
52:54ceremonial practice, no, no, no, it is
52:57not present in terms of morality,
53:00because what Christ is criticizing is
53:04—listen, wait, don't start the timer
53:07yet. Sorry, Miguel. I’m going to set
53:114 minutes because I already started.
53:13>> No, don't worry, don't worry. Take all
53:15the time you need.
53:15>> I don't want to, I don't want to. I set
53:174 minutes. Forgive me. Uh, forgive me
53:20to everyone watching there. Okay. The
53:22point is not morality, uh, sorry, it is
53:25morality, right? The point is not
53:27ceremonial. No, no, no, no, no. Christ
53:30says," without neglecting those things,
53:32"because Christ is very clear. Now,
53:36regarding the second tithe, which also
53:39had a delivery, there were differences.
53:43In fact, the second tithe had different
53:48conditions, and citing it under the
53:52same condition as the tithe from
53:58Abraham, from Jacob, one would have to
54:03be careful because it was, they were
54:08different conditions. If you can notice
54:11, it says here," You shall surely tithe
54:13all the produce of the grain that your
54:15field yields year by year. "Here, first
54:18of all, Miguel, one must have the
54:21worldview of the Old and New Testament.
54:25They didn't tithe monthly; that
54:27depended on the animals, on the harvest
54:30. I mean, it's not the same, how should
54:33I put it? Western way that we have of
54:36tithing. First, you have to get that
54:38idea out of your head. Because the
54:40tithe could vary due to the seasons,
54:42the harvest time, for many things. So
54:45to start, we have to try to get into
54:47that. And you can notice that it says,"
54:49And you shall eat before the Lord your
54:51God in the place where He chooses to
54:52make His name abide, the tithe of your
54:54grain. "Notice that now the people
54:57participated in that tithe, which was
54:59not the first tithe, it was another, of
55:01your wine, of your oil. And I want you
55:04to notice something, because it does
55:06not say the tithe of your herds here,
55:08no. Notice that it is different; it
55:11says," And the firstborn of your herds
55:13and your flocks. "Do you know why,
55:17Miguel? Because this passage has a
55:20context above all else. Unlike the
55:23first tithe, this passage has a context
55:26—listen well and write it down
55:28because it is very important—
55:30ceremonial. And you will say, why,
55:33Oliver? Because if you read well and do
55:38your little job of delving exegetically
55:40into the text, that tithe was dedicated
55:43to the feasts. It was a tithe dedicated
55:48to supporting the feasts, and in
55:50addition to the feasts, to sustain and
55:53share with the people during the
55:56festivities. They used firstfruits; it
56:00had a different symbology because the
56:03original tithe of Abraham and Jacob is
56:05not connected to a shadow, but it also
56:08had its function, eh, of helping the
56:10most needy, the widow and the orphan.
56:14Why? Because, uh, it was a duty on the
56:17part of the people, of course, to help
56:19their neighbor. It was a duty. But, but
56:23I return to the point, there are great
56:25differences. There are great
56:28differences. And there were not three
56:29tithes, there were two. The thing is
56:32that there was one that was celebrated
56:34later in the third year and there are
56:36great differences with the tithe of
56:38Abraham and Jacob which has to do with
56:42the fact that God is the owner of
56:44everything. If you study Deuteronomy 14
56:48well, the second tithe is oriented
56:50toward the festivities, the moment of
56:53celebration. And of course, imagine
56:56that you are celebrating and you have
56:58your house full of food and it turns
56:59out your neighbor has nothing to eat.
57:02How are you going to celebrate knowing
57:04your neighbor has nothing to eat, are
57:05you just going to leave it like that? I
57:08mean, that is the context. For that
57:10reason, uh, one must be careful and
57:12have the complete worldview of the
57:14gospel. Otherwise, you can get lost
57:17along the way.
57:21>> Very well. You mixed two things, uh,
57:27Matthew 23:23, and I would have liked
57:29for you to focus a little bit there and
57:31then at another time intervene in
57:32Deuteronomy, but let's see where I
57:34follow you. I hope to do it from both
57:37sides. You've given me a lot of time, I
57:39think.
57:40>> No, no, no, don't worry. No, I haven't
57:42even set the time
57:44>> because I don't know how much time I
57:46lost, so go ahead calmly.
57:49>> There's no problem. If you want you can
57:50give me less.
57:51>> No, no, no, no, no. We are equitable
57:53here. Very well. First of all,
57:55>> you say that the third-year tithe
57:59>> uh is a ceremonial tithe, right? The
58:02tithe was focused on the widow, the
58:03poor, and the orphan. And there were
58:06also firstfruits and tithes that were
58:08taken to the solemn feasts. I mean, you
58:11can't, you can't mix that. We need to
58:14make a little more of a, a, a, a point
58:17there. So you are defending and saying
58:20that the third-year tithe, which was
58:22for the poor, the orphan, the foreigner
58:24, that was abolished. That I want you
58:27to be able to say later on, but no, if
58:29it is the tithe of the law, you have to
58:31defend its distribution in the same way
58:34. But well, that, I am nobody to judge
58:37on that, on that point, let them judge
58:40there to see if that is practiced or
58:42not. And if everyone has that same
58:45interpretation that you have, obviously
58:47it won't be distributed, since you say
58:48that the tithe directed to the widow,
58:50the poor, the orphan, and the stranger,
58:52which was the third-year tithe, was
58:53ceremonial. So you you agree that the
58:56tithe of the law, which you say there
58:59are two, had one that was moral and the
59:01other ceremonial. How strange that the
59:05tithe that is for the pastor's
59:07livelihood today is known as moral, and
59:10the tithe that is focused on the widow,
59:13the poor, and the orphan is known as an
59:15abolished or ceremonial tithe. Well,
59:19those are your words, although I don't
59:21share them, but fine. Now, in these
59:25minutes I have, I want to take
59:27advantage of the book of Matthew 23,
59:30which you cite and obviously to speak
59:32of a validity of the tithe. Jesus
59:37Christ in Matthew 23:23, he repeated
59:39clearly and said the following:" Do not
59:42stop doing, obviously, giving the tithe
59:45, but you must practice mercy. Yes, you
59:49must practice mercy. It says it here, I
59:52want to read it, let's see. Justice and
59:54mercy. This was necessary to do without
59:57neglecting the other. We must
59:59understand that what you just told me,
1:00:01that the tithe for the widow, for the
1:00:03poor, and for the orphan was linked to
1:00:06mercy, specifically in this same verse.
1:00:10But you just buried that that part.
1:00:16Point number three. In chapter 23,
1:00:21Jesus Christ is not giving validity
1:00:24only to the tithe. In verses 1 through
1:00:273, God is giving validity to all the
1:00:30commandments of the Law of Moses. But
1:00:34it is strange that you want to defend
1:00:36only the validity of the tithe in
1:00:38Matthew 23:23, but in Matthew 23: 1-3
1:00:40you don't want to defend the entire law
1:00:43. In fact, when Christ said that you
1:00:46should give, you should continue giving
1:00:48the tithe, obviously because Christ is
1:00:50alive. And while Christ is alive, the
1:00:53temple exists, the priests exist, the
1:00:55tithe is there, the tithe is valid, and
1:00:57not just the tithe, the 613 [
1:00:59commandments] are valid. That is why in
1:01:02the book of Matthew 23 it says, "The
1:01:04scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses
1:01:06'seat. All that they tell you to do, do
1:01:09it and keep it. Because when they read
1:01:12from Moses' seat, they spoke, they
1:01:13opened the law like this, and they read
1:01:15the entire law. And when Jesus says,"
1:01:18When the teacher does that, everything
1:01:20they tell you to keep, keep it and do
1:01:23it. "He did not defend only the tithe.
1:01:25My big question would be, did Christ
1:01:28validate only the tithe in Matthew
1:01:3023:23 or the entire law? The answer is
1:01:32the entire law. Therefore, Jesus Christ
1:01:35in his life had to validate the entire
1:01:37law, not just the tithe. But in this
1:01:39case, you are being exclusive because
1:01:41you will say that not all of the law is
1:01:43valid, yet you are only being selective
1:01:45with the tithe. Because when Jesus is
1:01:47speaking here of the entire law, he is
1:01:49referring to the fact that in his life,
1:01:52all 613 laws were in effect. And all of
1:01:54that Christ said to keep and do when
1:01:56you read it. Now, Jesus also in the
1:02:00book of Matthew 8: 4 said to a, he said
1:02:02to the leper, you know what he told him
1:02:05? Go and show yourself to the priest
1:02:08with the offering that Moses commanded.
1:02:11In Leviticus 14 it says he had to
1:02:13present himself with doves, or after 8
1:02:15days bring a lamb. Jesus also said for
1:02:19that to be done. Just because Jesus
1:02:22said something that had to be done in
1:02:23his life, you aren't going to say it is
1:02:25valid now. Therefore, your argument is
1:02:28that Jesus Christ said we must pay the
1:02:30tithe. Of course, because what you have
1:02:32come to prove is not whether the tithe
1:02:34was in effect during Christ's life.
1:02:36What you have come to prove is after
1:02:38the death of Christ. That is why the
1:02:40topic is, is the tithe still in effect?
1:02:43It is specifically after the death of
1:02:45Christ, not during Christ's ministry.
1:02:47During Christ's ministry, all 613 laws
1:02:49were in effect.
1:02:54>> Fine. Uhm. Notice that you cite Matthew
1:03:0223:23 to me because you have a prepared
1:03:06answer, but I tell you again, it might
1:03:10surprise you. I am going to go again to
1:03:14Deuteronomy, chapter 14. And I will
1:03:19return to the point I presented to you
1:03:23about this tithe. And look, so that you
1:03:30can see it in its context, Miguel, and
1:03:31the audience can see it in its context:
1:03:33at the end of every 3 years you shall
1:03:35bring out all the tithe of your produce
1:03:37of that year and store it in your
1:03:39cities. Notice that it had a condition
1:03:43that beforehand was very different
1:03:45because, uh, it wasn't annual, but
1:03:52every 3 years; it wasn't, I mean, it
1:03:55had many things that made it different.
1:04:01And here it tells you," The Levite, who
1:04:02has no portion nor inheritance with you
1:04:04, and the foreigner, the orphan, and
1:04:06the widow who are within your towns
1:04:07shall come and eat and be satisfied. "
1:04:09so that the Lord your God may bless you
1:04:12in all the work your hands do. Look how
1:04:15interesting, isn't it? Now I am going
1:04:17to go to Deuteronomy 16. And you are
1:04:21going to see an interesting parallel
1:04:22there as well. Look at what it says
1:04:26here, so you can see that it was a
1:04:28tithe associated with something totally
1:04:30different from that of Abraham and
1:04:32Jacob, which is associated with God
1:04:34being the owner, and then God takes it
1:04:36and gives it to the Levites, and later
1:04:38changes workers and gives it to the
1:04:40Christian church. Deuteronomy 16:14
1:04:43says," And you shall rejoice in your
1:04:45feast, you and your son and your
1:04:47daughter, your manservant and your
1:04:48Levite. "It says, uh, the stranger, the
1:04:55fatherless, and the widow who are
1:04:58within your towns. Does that ring a
1:04:59bell? That is the third tithe, sorry,
1:05:01the second tithe I quoted. Seven days
1:05:05you shall keep a solemn feast to the
1:05:07Lord your God in the place which the
1:05:09Lord chooses, because the Lord your God
1:05:11will bless you in all your produce and
1:05:13in all the work of your hands, so that
1:05:14you will be altogether joyful. So,
1:05:19there is no doubt that this tithe is
1:05:21associated with ceremonies, with feasts
1:05:24, feasts that you know very well were a
1:05:27shadow of the one who was to come, but
1:05:29the tithe that is associated with God
1:05:32being the owner is very distinct, it is
1:05:35very different. No, no, we cannot have
1:05:39any doubt regarding that. So, you
1:05:41cannot claim, you cannot claim that th-
1:05:48if we are going to tithe, look at your
1:05:50argument, if we are going to tithe,
1:05:52then I also have to give this tithe.
1:05:54But, but, what feast are you going to
1:05:56celebrate? At which feast? Now, if you
1:05:59say to me, Brother Oliver, can the
1:06:01tithe at some point be used not only
1:06:03for the service of the Levites for this
1:06:06time, but also to help people who are
1:06:08having a hard time, who are in a
1:06:10complicated situation? Of course it can
1:06:13be done. Of course, for specific
1:06:15situations, because I desire mercy and
1:06:17not sacrifice, there is no problem at
1:06:20all. What you cannot do is associate a
1:06:23second tithe that appears in the
1:06:26context—pay attention to what I am
1:06:28going to tell you—in the ceremonial
1:06:31context that appears later with the
1:06:33arrival of the Levites, which does not
1:06:36appear recorded in Genesis, you cannot
1:06:39associate it and say:" No, it is
1:06:41anchored to the first tithe. "That
1:06:44would be like, for example, me saying,"
1:06:46Well, if you eliminate the seven
1:06:47ceremonial Sabbaths for me, you have to
1:06:49eliminate the seventh day of the week
1:06:51for me. "Then, you are going to answer
1:06:53me, 'No, Oliver, but the seven
1:06:55ceremonial Sabbaths that represented
1:06:57the Jewish liturgical year were a
1:06:59shadow of the one who was to come,
1:07:02while the seventh day is associated
1:07:04with creation.'""Exactly." The same
1:07:07thing happens with the first tithe and
1:07:09the second tithe. The first tithe is
1:07:11associated with creation, with the
1:07:12creator, the owner of everything. The
1:07:16second tithe appears in the Levitical
1:07:17era, where the people are organized,
1:07:19where God has an order of feasts, where
1:07:21God demands that orphans, widows, and
1:07:23the needy be cared for. And so,
1:07:27logically, when everything reaches its
1:07:29fulfillment, there is no longer a need
1:07:30to celebrate that feast, no longer a
1:07:32need to be celebrating everything and
1:07:34preparing all of that, and therefore
1:07:36there is no need to be setting aside
1:07:38this second tithe either. But even so,
1:07:42I am taking away the possibility for
1:07:44the tithe to be used to help others,
1:07:46because that is the main point, not
1:07:49just sustenance, but also help. Very
1:07:55well, let me enjoy my moment right now.
1:07:59As I once told Pastor John, and I think
1:08:01it made him uncomfortable. I want to
1:08:05argue in the following way. You say
1:08:07this, look, reading the text you claim
1:08:10the following. The biblical text says
1:08:14that the tithe was taken to the solemn
1:08:17feasts, it was given at the solemn
1:08:20feasts. That tithe is a different tithe
1:08:24. It was the tithe for the widow, for
1:08:26the poor, for the orphan. But let me
1:08:29tell you, my brother, that all tithes
1:08:32were taken to the storehouse of the
1:08:34temple and, obviously, in the context
1:08:37of the Bible, the tithes were taken
1:08:40specifically at the solemn feasts; not
1:08:42only for the widow, not only for the
1:08:45poor or the orphan, but the Levitical
1:08:47tithe was also taken there, my brother
1:08:50Oliver. Now, let me read you the text
1:08:54that you read and did not emphasize. Eh
1:08:59, Deuteronomy, chapter 16, verse 13,
1:09:01says, "The solemn feasts and the
1:09:03tabernacles you shall keep for seven
1:09:05days.""The text you read," When you
1:09:07have gathered in your harvests, go to
1:09:08your place. "Well, now look at verse 14
1:09:11. And you shall rejoice in your solemn
1:09:15feasts, you, your son, your manservant,
1:09:18your maidservant, and the Levite, the
1:09:21stranger, and the widow, and they shall
1:09:24eat in your towns. Sure, the tithe was
1:09:27distributed to the widow, the poor, the
1:09:30orphan, and they were taken precisely
1:09:32to Jerusalem. Because you didn't go to
1:09:35Jerusalem every weekend. You went to
1:09:38Jerusalem for the solemn feasts, but
1:09:39you didn't have to go empty-handed, you
1:09:41had to bring something. So you say this
1:09:44," Look, look at your argument. Your
1:09:47argument is, uh, this tithe here for
1:09:49the widow, for the poor, for the orphan
1:09:52, was taken at the solemn feasts. Today
1:09:55there are no solemn feasts, therefore,
1:09:57it does not have to be brought to the
1:09:59widow, the poor, the orphan, and the
1:10:00stranger. But your argument falls apart
1:10:03. Why does it fall apart? Because if
1:10:04your argument is that there are no
1:10:06solemn feasts and therefore you don't
1:10:07have to bring it to the widow and the
1:10:09poor, then don't bring it to the Levite
1:10:10either. You also cannot continue asking
1:10:13for the Levitical tithe, because the
1:10:14same chapter is teaching you that at
1:10:16the same time the widow and the poor
1:10:18are given to, during the solemn feasts,
1:10:20was when everything was brought. In
1:10:22fact, Malachi, uh, Nehemiah 13,
1:10:25Nehemiah 14, Nehemiah 10 and all the
1:10:28texts that we see were in Deuteronomy
1:10:3114, in the place that Jehovah chose. It
1:10:35is where you brought your tithes, your
1:10:36first fruits, and your offerings. Look,
1:10:40your argument just collapsed because I
1:10:42repeat, you just said the following.
1:10:46The tithe for the widow is not brought
1:10:48because they were brought during the
1:10:49solemn feasts. Ah, but the Levitical
1:10:52tithe is still in effect. But they were
1:10:54brought during the solemn feasts. You
1:10:57say, "We don't have to bring the
1:10:58widow's tithe anymore because the
1:10:59solemn feasts ended." Excellent. The
1:11:03text also says that on those same dates
1:11:06they brought the tithe. Yes. And in
1:11:10fact you can also see it in the book of
1:11:12Deuteronomy 26. When you finish tithing
1:11:17the tithe of the third year, you shall
1:11:19give, listen well, to the Levite, the
1:11:22stranger, the orphan, the widow. Yes.
1:11:25And they will eat in your cities. And
1:11:27you will say before Jehovah, "I have
1:11:28removed the consecrated thing from my
1:11:30house. And I have also given to the
1:11:33Levite, to the orphan, to the widow, as
1:11:36you have commanded me. I have not
1:11:39transgressed your law, nor have I
1:11:42forgotten them." So, in those solemn
1:11:44feasts you were not supposed to forget
1:11:46one or the other. You, what you just
1:11:48said is terrible, but it seems
1:11:51incredible to me that you see the same
1:11:54package in the same, in the same law,
1:11:57in the same moment of giving it, in the
1:12:00same place and say: "The Levitical
1:12:02tithe is moral and the widow's tithe is
1:12:05not moral because it is ceremonial,
1:12:08because it was given in the solemn
1:12:11feasts." And this is ceremonial because
1:12:14it was given in the solemn feasts, this
1:12:15would also be ceremonial because they
1:12:17were also given in the solemn feasts.
1:12:20The argument fell, the very argument
1:12:23you raised. Now I have 30 seconds,
1:12:27Brother Oliver. We have been here more
1:12:30than an hour and a half already. I am
1:12:35going to stay for only one more
1:12:36intervention. I can't stay all night,
1:12:40eh. Actually, waiting for the topic
1:12:44that we want to touch on, but anyway,
1:12:46we are still on the tithe, on the tithe
1:12:48of Levi. Look, we haven't moved on to
1:12:51another, there we are, which I believe
1:12:53is valid, but fine, I'll stay for one
1:12:55more intervention. The thing is, uh, I
1:13:01haven't been able to advance further
1:13:04because I notice that the worldview of
1:13:10ours, and I say this with all respect,
1:13:12is different. And notice right now, and
1:13:16I tell you this with sincerity, uh in
1:13:22relation to this second tithe, which
1:13:25you don't find in Genesis beforehand,
1:13:27you find it starting from the Jewish
1:13:30liturgical year; it is directly
1:13:33associated. Notice that you said they
1:13:37took it to the temple, right? That is
1:13:40an error, uh, either due to lack of
1:13:43knowledge or or lack of worldview. If
1:13:48you read Deuteronomy 16:14, I will
1:13:53explain the difference of the second
1:13:54tithe, it is necessary that you
1:13:56understand it. The second tithe, I will
1:13:59try to be as clear as possible, the
1:14:01second tithe had the purpose of
1:14:05providing the nation with what was
1:14:08necessary to celebrate the feast. And
1:14:12that provision included not only the
1:14:16Levites, but the entire nation. For
1:14:20that reason you read and it says, "And
1:14:23you shall rejoice in your solemn feasts
1:14:25. You, your son, your daughter, your
1:14:30manservant, your maidservant." I'm
1:14:34going to stop there. If you study the
1:14:37history, uh, of Israel, that tithe was
1:14:39not taken to the temple. That tithe
1:14:43they collected especially to celebrate
1:14:45that feast was kept, and they ate from
1:14:47it. Meaning, they participated because
1:14:52God had commanded it. They ate from it,
1:14:55they held the feast eating from it
1:14:57themselves. Something very different
1:14:59from the first tithe that was destined
1:15:01for the Levite's sustenance. And then,
1:15:05of course, how am I going to be
1:15:06celebrating a feast when the stranger
1:15:08who is with me, or the Levite, or the
1:15:10orphan doesn't have any? Of course, the
1:15:14Levite participated, the guest, the
1:15:16foreigner participated, the orphan
1:15:19participated, the widow participated,
1:15:21and all those who live in your towns.
1:15:25Seven days you shall celebrate a solemn
1:15:27feast to your God in the place which
1:15:29the Lord shall choose. Note that it
1:15:32doesn't say, it doesn't say in the
1:15:33temple, because the Lord your God will
1:15:35have blessed you. Look, look at the
1:15:37motive. In all your produce, in all the
1:15:41work of your hands, and you shall be
1:15:43truly joyful. Listen, brother, I don't
1:15:48know, I don't know what to do so you
1:15:50can manage to get into the worldview
1:15:53and understand that this second tithe
1:15:55is a second tithe that prepared the
1:15:58feast, that prepared the action of, of
1:16:00enjoying that special liturgical moment
1:16:03; that it wasn't every year, that it
1:16:05didn't involve the same conditions
1:16:08because only the firstborn were chosen,
1:16:10the, sorry, the firstfruits. Yes, the
1:16:14firstborn. of the animals, it wasn't
1:16:16that they had to take out 10%. If my
1:16:19little cow gave me 20, uh, little
1:16:21animals, I have to take out, uh, two.
1:16:25No, no, it wasn't the first. I mean,
1:16:28because look at the symbolism with the
1:16:30shadow that, that directly represented
1:16:31Christ's hour. So, you cannot say: "
1:16:35Well, Oliver, since the second tithe,
1:16:37uh, is associated with the first, it's
1:16:39the same tithe; so, if you tell the
1:16:41audience, because this is your resource
1:16:43, if you tell the audience that the
1:16:45tithe is in effect, they have to give
1:16:47the second tithe." So, I ask you, and
1:16:50what feast are we going to celebrate?
1:16:52Where are we going to celebrate it? In
1:16:54what sense are we going to celebrate a
1:16:57feast? Because it is in a context of a
1:16:59feast. Of a feast. Now, if you say to
1:17:03me, "Oliver, would the first tithe be
1:17:05lawful if the organization sees that
1:17:08there is a need, a complicated
1:17:10situation, can it help?" Of course. I
1:17:13return to the point, I desire mercy and
1:17:15not sacrifice. It is destined for the
1:17:18Levites. Yes, but, but there can be
1:17:19exceptional exceptions, if you'll
1:17:21pardon the redundancy. But it is
1:17:23necessary, Miguel, that you recognize
1:17:26that here you cannot tie the second
1:17:29tithe to the first. It would be like
1:17:32tying a ceremonial Sabbath to the
1:17:34seventh day of the week, something you
1:17:36do not agree with, because the
1:17:38ceremonial Sabbaths, just like the
1:17:39second tithe, were born with the
1:17:41Levites. So, you cannot break a
1:17:45principle that you use for one thing in
1:17:47order to sustain another. I mean, we
1:17:50have to be a bit balanced when we
1:17:53present this. And note that this is a
1:17:55difficult topic that very few explain,
1:17:57and especially in public.
1:18:00>> Very well, my brother. Uh, I want to
1:18:01make my last intervention, as I tell
1:18:03you, having waited an hour and a half.
1:18:06You started, I want to close, and after
1:18:08I finish, uh, I ask you to end with
1:18:10prayer. And well, first of all, the
1:18:14tithe that I say was brought to
1:18:17Jerusalem was all the tithes. Now, in
1:18:20fact, your favorite text that you have
1:18:23brought up in these dialogues has been
1:18:27the book of Malachi 3. Bring the tithe
1:18:30into the storehouse. You have to prove
1:18:34to me that the storehouse was not in
1:18:36Jerusalem so that the tithe would not
1:18:38be taken there, since Nehemiah 12 says
1:18:40that the children of Judah brought the
1:18:43tithe, the oil, and the grain, yes?
1:18:47Obviously, the storehouse where the
1:18:49tithe was deposited was a place where
1:18:51it was received. We can also find it in
1:18:55Nehemiah 13, yes? From 10 to 38. 10:38,
1:19:00excuse me, and onwards, and you can
1:19:02read it up to chapter 13. But well, I
1:19:04want to take this opportunity to speak
1:19:07to the brothers who are going to do
1:19:09their own research. I said the
1:19:11following. Let's see, allow me to
1:19:14adjust at this time. First, the tithe
1:19:19is not found in the first centuries of
1:19:21the church as something in force, right
1:19:24? Starting from the 4th century, the
1:19:28church fathers make an invitation to
1:19:30tithe voluntarily. I have all the
1:19:32historical evidence, all of it. I have
1:19:35taken the time for quite a while to
1:19:37find it out. You should do it too. Then
1:19:41the Council of Macon and the Council of
1:19:43Tours take place, where the tithe is
1:19:45imposed so that everyone does it. Then
1:19:49the church, the same church starts to
1:19:52hold councils in the time of
1:19:54Charlemagne so that the tithe becomes
1:19:56mandatory, and there, for the first
1:19:58time, the phrase appears that he who
1:20:01does not give the tithe is robbing God.
1:20:06Then it is established there that
1:20:07everyone who does not give the tithe is
1:20:09under excommunication. One could not be
1:20:11counted as—they were denied mass, the
1:20:13Lord's table, baptism, those who did
1:20:15not practice it. Look, when the
1:20:18Adventist Church emerged, for 30 years,
1:20:23three decades, it did not ask for the
1:20:25tithe. From the year 1844 until the
1:20:29year 1858, they survived for 14 years
1:20:34on voluntary donations. It was in the
1:20:39year 1859, that is, after 30 years to
1:20:431875, that they used the Systematic
1:20:48Benevolence plan, where they
1:20:51established now, from now on, they were
1:20:56going to give a weekly contribution.
1:21:02They began to give weekly contributions
1:21:05. Yes. which was practiced until 1875,
1:21:10in other words, for 30 years, the
1:21:13Adventist Church did not arrive at this
1:21:15interpretation. Ah, I also want to say
1:21:18the following. In the year 1859, the
1:21:21church gathered to study the Bible and
1:21:24reached the conclusion that they should
1:21:26give weekly offerings. And that is why
1:21:30it is established that men from 18 to
1:21:3260 years old and women from 18 to 60
1:21:35years old start giving a weekly
1:21:37contribution. I would run out of time
1:21:40to explain all of that to you. You must
1:21:42know the history, obviously, but what
1:21:44happens later in the year 1876? Yes.
1:21:49The church begins to say, "We are going
1:21:53to use the tithe as a law within our
1:21:56church.""And they use Malachi for the
1:21:59first time, right? In 1876. Now, in the
1:22:07year 1932, they make it a mandatory
1:22:13requirement in their church manual so
1:22:15that anyone who does not return it has
1:22:17no part as a leader within a church.
1:22:21And in the year 1951, it is established
1:22:24as a baptismal vow so that everyone who
1:22:28is to be a member of the church must be
1:22:31a tither. Therefore, this is very
1:22:34similar to how it happened in the early
1:22:37era of the church. First, the church
1:22:39gave offerings in the first centuries.
1:22:42Later we will invite to give
1:22:43voluntarily, then mandatorily, and then
1:22:45under a manual saying that whoever does
1:22:47not give it is under excommunication,
1:22:48the Catholic Church said. It is the
1:22:51same replica that is happening from the
1:22:54year 1854 to 1951. Therefore, well, I
1:22:59thank you Oliver for participating with
1:23:03me. Well, I encourage you and I am
1:23:07going to stop time here. Uh, I want to
1:23:10thank the audience and everyone who has
1:23:13been listening there, as well as Pastor
1:23:15Miguel for the opportunity. U the tithe
1:23:22is still in effect. Well, look,
1:23:27>> Oliver, the dialogue, the dialogue has
1:23:30>> I don't hear, it's already over. I
1:23:32would like
1:23:34>> for us to be able to...Ah, I would like
1:23:36, I am going to pray to finish, but I
1:23:38would like for you to tell me what day
1:23:40we can go to the third part. I'll take
1:23:43the opportunity since I'm in public, I
1:23:44have no problem with it. The third part
1:23:47, I reached the frontier of the gospel.
1:23:50The third part, uh, of course, I am
1:23:52going to touch on the New Testament and
1:23:54I am going to touch on, uh, of course,
1:23:56what you are interested in, which is
1:23:58history.
1:23:59>> Wait, let me answer you.
1:24:01>> Uh-huh. When can we? Tell me.
1:24:02>> We have talked almost 4 hours in our
1:24:05first intervention and our second
1:24:08intervention, and obviously I expected
1:24:11today to be that dialogue you expect. I
1:24:15accepted two times to discuss the topic
1:24:17of tithing with you, and honestly,
1:24:19today I want to consider our talk
1:24:21concluded. Now, if there were another
1:24:24Adventist like Joel Flores or Esteban
1:24:27Bor, with whom I would have no problem
1:24:29discussing this topic, you could
1:24:31schedule a time with me to perhaps talk
1:24:33about some other topic we could share,
1:24:36or one where I want to learn from you,
1:24:38because I also need to learn topics
1:24:40that I don't know; but on this topic, I
1:24:43want to keep going.
1:24:45>> but just imagine, if with only the Old
1:24:48Testament you have struggled to move
1:24:52forward. Imagine that I haven't even
1:24:54entered the New Testament or touched on
1:24:55the history that interests you so much.
1:24:58But it’s fine, I won’t force you,
1:25:00brother. The gospel is free.
1:25:03>> I am offering you a third opportunity,
1:25:05but if you don’t want to, there’s
1:25:06no problem at all. Not on this topic,
1:25:09but if you invite me to discuss some
1:25:11other topic, there is no problem,
1:25:13because I sincerely want to share any
1:25:15topics with you. But on this topic, I
1:25:18tell you: if there is any other
1:25:20Adventist who wants to talk about it,
1:25:22whom the church requests or asks for,
1:25:25they can do it in some way, as it is
1:25:27good to exchange ideas. I also thank
1:25:32those who are tuning in here, and well,
1:25:35let’s finish in a friendly way, the
1:25:37way we started, brother. You know you
1:25:41are a great brother to me, a friend, a
1:25:42brother, and finish by praying, my
1:25:45brother.
1:25:46>> Let us pray.
1:25:47>> Thank the Lord.
1:25:50>> Eternal Father, we want to thank You at
1:25:52this hour for the opportunity You
1:25:54freely give us to share our faith and
1:25:56our convictions. I want to pray
1:26:00especially for Pastor Miguel Ortiz, for
1:26:02the congregation he leads, his family,
1:26:04and his ministry, that You may continue
1:26:06to guide him according to Your great
1:26:08mercy. helping him to discern and
1:26:11guiding him in all things. I also want
1:26:15to pray for the entire audience that
1:26:17has tuned into this program. The goal
1:26:20we seek is that everyone can discern in
1:26:23their mind and heart, and seek like a
1:26:25good Berean what the truth is. That is
1:26:28the goal we seek. I want to thank You
1:26:33for the opportunity You give me to
1:26:34share Your word with him, and for him
1:26:36to also share his knowledge with me,
1:26:38because I also learn a lot through that
1:26:40. Thank You, dear Father. We praise
1:26:44Your name for the perfect work of
1:26:46Christ and hope that one day we will be
1:26:49together with You, Miguel, this servant
1:26:51, and all those who follow this program
1:26:54before You in the kingdom of heaven.
1:26:57Blessed be Your name. May it be praised
1:26:59forever. Thank You, Father, for Your
1:27:01work and for the Holy Spirit You grant
1:27:03us. And forgive us, Lord, if at any
1:27:06time we have acted in an improper way.
1:27:10We are sinful human beings and we need
1:27:12your grace at all times. Thank you,
1:27:15dear Father. Bless Miguel, be with us,
1:27:17guide us in the name of Jesus. Amen.
1:27:21And amen.
1:27:22>> Amen. Very well. Thank you, brothers.
1:27:25Also, those who have joined us can
1:27:26follow the page. We have weekly
1:27:29programs here where you can come up to
1:27:31share the topic. I don't set it, those
1:27:34who come up here set it. And well, I
1:27:37also say goodbye, my brothers. Uh,
1:27:40today is Tuesday, Monday, tomorrow
1:27:43Tuesday at 7 at night, uh, 8 at night,
1:27:45Peru time, we are broadcasting from the
1:27:48church a very important topic also
1:27:50through our official YouTube and
1:27:52Facebook pages.
1:27:55>> I take this opportunity, Miguel, to
1:27:56also tell your audience, and mine, that
1:27:58tomorrow I continue with the series"
1:27:59Present Truth. "So I look forward to
1:28:01seeing you Tuesday, Thursday, and
1:28:03Saturday, we will be there at 4:00 PM
1:28:05Venezuela time.
1:28:05>> Yes. And and I ask that you also follow
1:28:08brother Oliver Coronado because he is
1:28:10going to start using TikTok more often
1:28:11and we need to have a community.
1:28:13>> The next topic
1:28:14>> more more followers,
1:28:15>> the gift of prophecy. Whenever you want
1:28:18you can invite me. I already invited
1:28:20you twice, so I won't abuse your your
1:28:22kindness, but uh whenever you want you
1:28:25can invite me. I am at your service.
1:28:27>> Ready, my brother. God bless you.
1:28:28>> A pleasure. God bless you with much
1:28:30appreciation, brother.
1:28:32>> Thank you.

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