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Secularizing Buddhism: Do You Have to Believe in Rebirth to be a Buddhist? — Transcript

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0:00hello everyone and welcome my name is
0:02carolyn gregoire and i am the events
0:04manager
0:05here at tricycle today is the last in
0:09our week-long
0:10series with shambhala publications
0:12secularizing buddhism
0:14new perspectives on a dynamic tradition
0:17today's zoom session will be recorded
0:18for anyone who is unable to attend live
0:21and will make it available on tricycle's
0:23youtube channel the link will be posted
0:25in the chat in case you want to share it
0:26with friends who can't be here
0:28or if you'd like to watch it again so
0:30we're providing these events for free
0:32and if you haven't already and would
0:33like to support this offering
0:35please consider giving at the donation
0:37link in the chat
0:38you can also find a link in the chat for
0:4030 off the book secularizing buddhism
0:44we will leave some time for q a at the
0:46end of this event today so feel free to
0:48type in your questions at any time
0:50and we'll try to get to as many of them
0:51as we can alright so
0:53our guests today are roger jackson and
0:56jay garfield
0:57roger jackson is the john w nason
1:00professor emeritus of asian studies and
1:02religion at carleton college
1:04where he taught the religions of south
1:06asia and tibet his scholarly interests
1:09include indian and tibetan buddhist
1:11systems of philosophy
1:12meditation and ritual buddhist religious
1:15poetry
1:15the study of mysticism religion in sri
1:18lanka
1:19and the contours of modern buddhist
1:21thought he's the author of books
1:22including is enlightenment possible
1:24and tantric treasures he also has two
1:27books forthcoming from shambhala
1:28publications
1:29rebirth a guide to mind karma and cosmos
1:33in the buddhist world and sarahah poet
1:36mystic philosopher
1:38and jay garfield chairs the philosophy
1:40department and directs the tibetan
1:42studies program in india
1:44sorry tibetan studies in india program
1:46at smith college
1:47he is also a visiting professor of
1:49buddhist philosophy at harvard divinity
1:51school
1:52professor of philosophy at melbourne
1:53university an adjunct professor of
1:55philosophy
1:56at the central institute of higher
1:58tibetan studies
1:59his books include knowing illusion
2:02bringing a tibetan debate into
2:03contemporary discourse
2:05and buddhist ethics a philosophical
2:07exploration
2:10academicinfluence.com has influenced has
2:12identified him as one of the 50 most
2:14influential philosophers in the world
2:16over the past decade so we're so
2:18thrilled to have both of you here
2:19welcome and i will hand it over to you
2:22jay
2:23thanks very much carolyn and um thanks
2:26roger for this wonderful opportunity for
2:28us to
2:29talk about this fascinating topic and
2:31for the terrific
2:32um essay you contributed to the volume
2:35with a wonderful double entendre title
2:38um so i just wanted to open up with a
2:41kind of broad question and
2:43thought we might discuss this for a
2:44little bit and that question is this
2:48what does it mean in the first place to
2:50secularize buddhism as this volume
2:53um suggests and why are you and other
2:56people like the other contributors to
2:57this volume
2:58interested in doing that and as you
3:00think about that question
3:02i'd like you to ask to also talk about
3:04this issue is there something
3:05distinctive about
3:06buddhism among the world's religious
3:08traditions that invite
3:10secularization or anything special about
3:12the present moment that demands the
3:14secularization of religion
3:16anyway just love to hear your thoughts
3:19about that
3:19okay yeah um first of all i would want
3:22to say that i'm not sure
3:24i am seeking to secularize buddhism i
3:26contributed to a volume and talked about
3:29um processes that have happened
3:33uh within you know sort of under the
3:34purview of modernity in the last couple
3:37of centuries whereby
3:39uh many people uh within the buddhist
3:42world and this this counts
3:43both the the buddhist world in asia
3:46and the buddhists the growing buddhist
3:48world in the west
3:50have sought to somehow reconcile or make
3:54sense of buddhism
3:56in the context of what we often
3:58associate with modernity
4:00um a set of ideologies and technologies
4:03that that are
4:04perhaps most clearly associated with the
4:06west and indeed
4:08in part with western hegemony western
4:10colonialism western intellectual
4:12projects
4:14all of this all of this has been
4:17as posed a challenge for buddhists again
4:20both in asia and in the west
4:24but i don't think actually that buddhism
4:26is unique in this i should say at the
4:28outset that i
4:29um i'm not generally sympathetic
4:32uh to those who think of buddhism as
4:35simply a way of life or a philosophy of
4:37life
4:38that i guess because i've tended to
4:40study traditional buddhism
4:42in its original asian settings
4:45it seems very clear to me that buddhism
4:47is a religion
4:48they are much like we would identify
4:51christianity islam
4:52judaism various hindu traditions as
4:56religions and so it's it's really a
4:58question
4:59of uh how how religious buddhists
5:03think about uh what it means to be
5:06buddhist
5:07in the modern era given the challenges
5:10to traditional religion that modernity
5:14has posed in terms of
5:16uh you know the the ideologies of
5:18science
5:19of socialism of uh capitalism and very
5:23and you know technological revolutions
5:25very various elements
5:27uh that we might uh you know you can do
5:29this much more
5:31precisely but but uh generally speaking
5:34those are kind of hallmarks of modernity
5:36and you know above all it seems to me
5:38the challenge that modernity poses
5:41to buddhists but to religious people
5:43more generally
5:44is how to make sense of a
5:48traditional cosmology and traditional
5:50set
5:51of rituals and practices that date to
5:55the pre-modern era
5:56and that are in many cases thrown into
5:59question
6:00by the various ideologies and practices
6:04of modernity so you know to take the
6:06case in point here
6:08um it it it's probably true that in
6:12throughout most of asian history asian
6:15buddhist history
6:16rebirth was taken for granted sometimes
6:19it was debated and argued for
6:21or occasionally argued against but
6:23mostly it was taken for granted
6:25um just as the traditional christian
6:28cosmology
6:29say until the enlightenment in the west
6:31was largely taken for granted but
6:34modernity
6:35brings all that into question and by the
6:37same token
6:39the power the political power the social
6:42power the sometimes the economic power
6:43that buddhist institutions had
6:46say in traditional asian settings are
6:49not
6:49as obviously prominent in the modern era
6:52again with the rise of nation states and
6:55other institutions that
6:57uh bring this into question so so it's
6:59it's a matter as clifford geertz
7:01memorably put it the question for modern
7:05religious people
7:06isn't actually whether to be religious i
7:08think we tend to think that's
7:09that's the big question should i be
7:11religious it's it's really
7:13more a question of how to be religious
7:15so how are we religious
7:17in the modern world and um you know in
7:20the specific case of buddhism
7:22there are there has been an intellectual
7:25tendency
7:26at least since uh you know since serious
7:29western
7:30study of buddhism began a couple of
7:31centuries ago
7:33to see elements of buddhism as
7:36anticipating
7:37say modern science or democracy or
7:40socialism
7:41there's a great deal of literature out
7:43there that that tries to make these
7:45points
7:46um and whether this is true to the
7:49historical record as a is a totally
7:51separate
7:52question but it's but it's obvious that
7:54you know the the fact that buddhism for
7:56instance denies a creator
7:58god typically that it it
8:01it does analyze the world into what you
8:04might almost describe as atomic
8:06events that it sees change and
8:09impermanence as being fundamental all
8:11these
8:12have have tended to make buddhism seem
8:15like somehow it stands apart
8:17from other religions and being sort of
8:19uniquely prescient
8:21uh about what scientists and and others
8:25in the modern world we're going to
8:26discover
8:27so uh i don't happen to think that that
8:30works as well as many people think it
8:33does but you can understand how people
8:36would want to do this it's fairly
8:38typical when a religious tradition comes
8:41into a new cultural setting
8:43to try to comprehend it through the
8:45categories and the ideas
8:47that are there in that setting
8:50so understandably westerners coming into
8:53contact with buddhism for the first time
8:55have tried to see it
8:56through the lenses of science or
8:58democracy or
9:00um you know any number of other as i
9:02said ideologies and practices of the
9:04modern world
9:06let me push you a little bit on one
9:08thing that you said that i felt kind of
9:10interesting
9:10um and that is you pointed out that
9:13modernity in the kind of
9:15entrance of modernity into asia in this
9:17way
9:18um can be seen as a kind of artifact of
9:21a western colonialist project
9:23um and that a whole lot of this drive to
9:26secularize
9:28seems to come from a uniquely european
9:32approach to science
9:33so wondering if this um secularization
9:36in particular
9:37in the context of thinking about rebirth
9:39um
9:40strikes you as um politically
9:42problematic or
9:43um an especially um
9:47difficult moment in the interaction
9:49between the west and
9:50asian cultures i think it is uh quite
9:53problematic and the whole
9:54the whole question of uh who gets to
9:57tell
9:57whom about a particular religious
10:01tradition x or y has to be approached
10:03very very cautiously and very very
10:06sensitively
10:07but i but i think it it is at the same
10:10time
10:11important to note as i tried to indicate
10:14at the outset
10:14that the process of motor modernization
10:17even if
10:18it was shall we say pushed or or
10:21instigated to some degree by asian
10:25contacts with the west of one sword or
10:28another
10:28you know and it's not always just
10:30colonial but that's a fair part of it
10:32um that people in these societies
10:36themselves felt the need to respond to
10:38what they saw
10:39as the ideological practical and
10:41technological challenges
10:43posed by modernity as a
10:46western construct so um
10:49it's people within these cultures are
10:51themselves
10:52or have been really for the last two
10:54centuries have
10:56been responding to modernity and i i
10:59wouldn't
11:00say that secularization has necessarily
11:03been
11:04the way they have have generally gone i
11:06see secularization as being
11:08at the sort of far end of a spectrum
11:11that
11:11runs roughly from traditionalism or
11:15literalism on the one hand
11:18through a kind of neo-traditionalism
11:21that seeks to maintain much of tradition
11:23but to
11:24sort of revamp the way it's described in
11:27more modern
11:28terms on to what i would call modernism
11:32which is fairly skeptical of
11:35traditional cosmologies and ideas
11:39and yet uh wants to sort of retain
11:42them reinterpreted whether it's
11:45existentially or psychologically or in
11:47some other
11:48mode uh to secularization or secularism
11:52which
11:52which to me is a is at a far end and
11:56um the the danger of of of
11:59secularization or or secularism at least
12:02as i see it is that
12:04um it ends up as one of my students long
12:06ago put it in a thesis
12:08title it throws out the baby with the
12:10bath water
12:11um that you you you end up with a
12:14version of buddhism
12:16that is uh is is really
12:19a kind of uh buddha sized
12:22to coin a term a kind of buddhisized
12:25secular humanism
12:27um so so i think i think everybody
12:30and this is true in asia and it's true
12:32in the west sort of has to find their
12:35way to some
12:36point on this spectrum that i imagine
12:39but anyway
12:40my my point in response to your question
12:42is that it's not
12:43i don't think it's a uniquely western
12:45phenomenon
12:47let me bring it right uh bring the
12:49conversation right back into rebirth
12:51here
12:52in in a direct way as
12:55you know one of the great um modernists
12:58of buddhism is his holiness the dalai
13:00lama um who has argued that buddhism has
13:03always been scientific
13:04has always been naturalistic and that
13:06buddhism and science are completely
13:09um in lockstep with one another some
13:12people have been skeptical of that view
13:13other people have rejoiced in that view
13:16but in this process of naturalizing
13:19buddhism one of the areas that has been
13:22um real really recalcitrant to
13:24naturalization is rebirth right
13:27um and i'm wondering whether you think
13:29there are any prospects
13:31for a naturalization of buddhist
13:34doctrine of rebirth
13:35either um in a kind of literalist way or
13:38in
13:38or in some other way so i'm thinking for
13:40example if we look at some of the
13:43naturalizations of vedanta that we saw
13:45happening at the beginning of the 20th
13:47century
13:48um and so we see vivekananda
13:52saying you know you think maya's
13:53something transcendental no it's just
13:55ordinary confusion about what makes life
13:57worthwhile you want money instead of
14:00happiness that's maya right you think
14:02that your happiness is going to be
14:04permanent if you just get a good job
14:05that's maya
14:06and so we got this you know real attempt
14:08to naturalize all of the categories of
14:10vedanta back then and i'm just wondering
14:12whether you whether you
14:14think that rebirth is um on the table
14:16for naturalization
14:18i think that many people would like to
14:20see it on the table for naturalization
14:22um i mean i think we have to you have to
14:24take a step back and ask
14:26what does it mean to naturalize and i
14:29think actually that even a traditional
14:31buddhist
14:31but who's conversant with modern ways of
14:34of speaking
14:35would say that actually buddha's rebirth
14:38is completely natural
14:40uh because of the particular relation
14:43that obtains
14:44between mind and body um as
14:48posited in most buddhist traditions
14:51over the years um you know it's it's
14:54what i
14:55i i would say though there's plenty of
14:58room for argument and disagreement on
15:00this that
15:01that classically buddhists from the very
15:04earliest
15:04texts we have down into relatively
15:07recent times
15:08have argued for what i've called a kind
15:11of interactionist dualism or a dualist
15:13interactionism if you will
15:16whereby mind and body are
15:19substances in the very broad basic
15:22philosophical sense of that term not in
15:24the sense of material substances
15:27that are separate enough in
15:30nature that they are separable
15:34at the time of death but are close
15:37enough
15:38as again substances if you will that
15:41interaction
15:41is possible and in fact is ongoing a
15:44good part of the time so that's just
15:46that's that's a preliminary comment to
15:48the effect that you know what's natural
15:51in in in western in western sort of
15:54uh post enlightenment scientific uh
15:57vocabulary and and discussion and i
15:59would suppose philosophy of mind though
16:01you're much more conversant with
16:03with that than i am um you would say
16:05that
16:06that um this is kind of a non-starter
16:10that if rebirth in in this let's say in
16:13the
16:13more or less literal sense that i die
16:16and then after my death i'm reborn in
16:18this realm or that realm of that this
16:20has been a beginningless process
16:22and it could be an endless process if i
16:24don't get my act together
16:26uh that that this is this is problematic
16:30in the language of science which tends
16:33to be rooted
16:34in one version or another of materialism
16:38there's many versions of this of course
16:40identity theory and physicalism and
16:42epiphenomenalism and all these
16:44different ways you can approach that but
16:47but
16:48that that is problematic so it seems to
16:50me that what
16:51what i see various people trying to do
16:54is is as you say to naturalize rebirth
16:58by appealing to a number of
17:01a number of different ways of coming at
17:03this for instance to
17:05argue that uh instances of past
17:09life recollections are if you will some
17:12kind of empirical
17:13or experiential evidence of rebirth or
17:16that
17:18near-death experiences tell us something
17:21or out-of-body experiences
17:24and others others will look to
17:28what i would describe as somewhat more
17:30radical solutions
17:31that tend to that try to reconceive the
17:34cosmos
17:35less in materialistic terms and more
17:38in terms of the cosmos as say
17:40information
17:42um which which you know pushes towards
17:45perhaps mentalistic ways of thinking
17:47about things that
17:49would then make the prospect of rebirth
17:52in
17:52the kind of literal sense less uh
17:55sort of less less problematic but of
17:58course that that pushes you out towards
18:00a kind of non-standard physics and i
18:03don't i don't know much about physics so
18:05uh i i'm loath to comment much on that
18:08does that get at your
18:10you know let me try to throw it give a
18:12different angle on this
18:13right um so part of what we're talking
18:16about i think in in our conversation so
18:18far
18:19is the effect of the transmission of
18:21buddhism
18:22out of classical asia to the modern west
18:25on what we do with a doctrine such as
18:27rebirth
18:28and sometimes helpful i think when to
18:31think about transmissions
18:33historically as well and of course there
18:35have been many transmissions of buddhism
18:37and
18:37the one that always intrigues me when
18:39i'm thinking about the contemporary
18:40transmission
18:41is the transmission of buddhism to china
18:44um
18:44as i mean classical china as a model for
18:47the
18:48for this transmission because here's
18:49what i mean by that i mean as we know
18:51when buddhism went into tibet it went
18:52into a
18:53fairly primitive culture without a
18:55written language without
18:57um really clear religious institutions
19:00without
19:00philosophical tradition and all of that
19:02and so it was just indian buddhism was
19:04just adopted whole cloth
19:06but when buddhism went into china as you
19:08know it's going into this extremely
19:10literate culture
19:11with active religious traditions and act
19:13of philosophy and poetry and art and so
19:16forth
19:17and by the way no rebirth um and so
19:20when chinese scholars and practitioners
19:23started looking at buddhism
19:25and started hearing that their ancestors
19:28were actually getting reborn that was a
19:31real deal breaker
19:32and buddhism in china basically
19:35responded to that deal breaker by saying
19:37fine we won't talk about
19:38that and except for some strains of the
19:40shin tradition but even those are
19:42getting metaphorical now
19:43rebirth really never played much of a
19:45role in chinese and then
19:46in japanese buddhism and so that's not
19:49naturalization that's just
19:51dismissal and that's raised the view
19:53among a lot of people
19:54um enough to hear this again and again
19:57that rebirth isn't
19:59buddhist rebirth is just old south asian
20:02doctrine
20:02and if we don't we don't need to become
20:05old south asians to become buddhists
20:08so we don't need to be to take up
20:10rebirth since that's just
20:12a really weird um artifact
20:15of a south asian origin and so just as
20:19we don't pick up cast why pick up
20:21rebirth um the chinese didn't why should
20:23we
20:24i'm wondering how that strikes you as a
20:26as another response
20:27yeah i i think uh i think there are
20:29elements of what you say that i would
20:30agree with and
20:32uh elements that i would at least shift
20:34around slightly i would agree with you
20:36broadly that
20:38uh you can divide when you're talking
20:40about the transmission of buddhism
20:42within asia you can very
20:43roughly speaking talk about um
20:47adoption cultures i call them and
20:49adaptation
20:50cultures adoption cultures tibet would
20:53be an example
20:54perhaps sri lanka would be an example
20:56where the
20:57the the kind of superstructure of
21:00long-standing quote civilization a term
21:03one should always use with caution was
21:06not
21:06very well in place and where buddhism
21:08itself helped to provide the basis for
21:11political unity
21:13ideological movements of various sorts
21:16or
21:17of another ritual and and whatnot and
21:20then
21:20in adaptation cultures and i think
21:23you're right that
21:24that china is is a perfect example of
21:27this
21:27uh where there was a long-standing
21:30tradition
21:31you know of literary language great
21:34great
21:34literature well-established religious
21:37traditions for
21:38thousands of years or at least a
21:40thousand years or more before the
21:41arrival of buddhism
21:43there there had to be um a considerable
21:46amount of adaptation
21:47on the part of buddhists in order for
21:49them to succeed in china
21:51and let's make no mistake about it
21:53buddhism is a missionary religion
21:55and has sought to succeed wherever it
21:57has gone
21:59um a couple of qualifications though
22:02first of all on on the on the south
22:04asian side i would say that that
22:06that the particular issue you describe
22:08in terms of
22:10china with ancestor worship is not
22:13absent at all from south asian religious
22:15traditions and
22:16that in fact rebirth probably posed as
22:19much of a problem
22:20for ordinary south asians
22:24uh in terms of what the hell had
22:26happened to their ancestors
22:28um as it as it eventually did for
22:30chinese we know of course china is
22:32famous for
22:33filiality ancestor worship and whatnot
22:35but
22:36it's part of hindu ritual and it's
22:38actually become part of
22:40buddhist ritual in south asia on various
22:44occasions to provide uh
22:47food for ancestors i mean prettys or
22:50hungry ghosts are an example of this and
22:53that goes
22:54deeply back deep back in south asian
22:56literature
22:57so i don't think that the problem is a
22:59uniquely chinese one i think the problem
23:01of
23:02feeling close to one's familial
23:05ancestors and trying to somehow
23:08reconcile this with the idea that they
23:10may have gone off to some
23:12other realm and are no longer accessible
23:14to you is something that that buddhists
23:16have
23:17always dealt with um now in the case of
23:20china maybe it was uh it was
23:22even even more of a of an issue
23:25but i but i think i would also again
23:28qualify some of what you say because i
23:30don't
23:31i don't although there are certain east
23:34asian buddhist traditions that i think
23:36we can agree
23:38don't put discussions of rebirth or
23:41perhaps even karma and carmen rebirth or
23:43intimately related
23:44doesn't put them at the forefront
23:47uh nevertheless uh you know and i i
23:50think
23:51zen or chan slash zen's last song slash
23:5510 would be an example of this if you
23:58simply read the literature of this
23:59tradition
24:00and um
24:04land types of buddhism i would uh
24:07are are you know perhaps uh
24:10the modern ones maybe see the pure land
24:12as metaphorical but i think it's fair to
24:14say that traditionally
24:16it was assumed that you could be reborn
24:18in amitabha's pure land
24:20and that certainly was taking rebirth
24:22quite seriously
24:24um the other thing is just to recall
24:26that although although
24:28buddhism coming from south asia
24:30definitely
24:31posed challenges to chinese ideologies
24:34and practices
24:36it actually fit in more easily than one
24:38might imagine
24:39there already were notions in china of a
24:43kind of afterlife in fact a kind of
24:44bureaucratized afterlife that's been
24:47much discussed and in a way you could
24:49see the buddhists as simply adding on
24:52uh kind of layers of complexity to
24:56versions of the afterlife that already
24:59were extant in china i i will agree with
25:01you that
25:02that this question of ancestor worship
25:03and what becomes of ancestors remains a
25:06a tricky point but i guess i i don't see
25:09as big a division between east asian and
25:12south asian as you do well
25:14i do like the image of india adding
25:16layers of bureaucracy to chinese
25:18bureaucracy india has always been good
25:19at that
25:21but um i'd still want to push the point
25:24a little bit maybe not
25:25not you know i don't want to belabor the
25:27historical points but
25:29the idea that a lot of western um
25:32buddhists and also westerners who are
25:33interested in buddhism have
25:35that rebirth really is a south asian
25:38idea
25:39not a buddhist idea and just as you know
25:42i don't need to
25:44you know grow long fingernails to
25:46practice you know in a tibetan tradition
25:48um i don't need to um you know believe
25:51everything that south asians believed um
25:54in order to practice a religion that
25:56happens to have originated
25:58there and i just hear that so often um
26:01and let me just give a kind of contrast
26:03by a contrasting analogy
26:05i'm just trying to imagine a group of
26:08chinese contemporary chinese converts to
26:10catholicism
26:11and i want to imagine them saying you
26:13know what the resurrection of christ
26:16um that really is just a bit of middle
26:19eastern folklore nobody could take
26:20seriously the idea that somebody could
26:22die and then be resurrected in this
26:24world and we'd like to be catholic but
26:27honestly that's just medieval that's
26:29just middle eastern folklore
26:31we don't need that we'll be catholics
26:33without the resurrection
26:36i think people would look at them kind
26:37of funny right and say
26:39i don't know that that's possible um and
26:42by the way we don't like cannibalism
26:44either so that bit about the about
26:46the sacrament let's leave that aside as
26:48well um we'll be catholics without the
26:51sacrament and without
26:53um resurrection otherwise we're just
26:55going to be completely catholics
26:56because we're going to pay attention to
26:57all of those great philosophical
26:59teachings
27:00of saint paul um and
27:03i'm wondering if that's an analogy for
27:06western buddhists to say you know what i
27:08don't want that indian salvation stuff
27:11i don't believe in mount meru i don't
27:13believe in
27:15in rebirth and what i want to do is just
27:18follow those words of wisdom
27:20of the buddha and the pali canon that
27:21don't give me
27:23south asian myths as part of it
27:26um are they kind of like my mythical
27:28chinese catholics or what's going on
27:30there
27:30that's that's a very good question and i
27:32i don't
27:34know that i have a really good answer to
27:36it i
27:37would point out that of course many
27:39modern protestants
27:41um and and not a small number of
27:43catholics have have in fact
27:45come up with their own rudolph bulman is
27:47the most
27:48important example that comes to my mind
27:50immediately who tried to demythologize
27:53christianity and and to see the
27:55resurrection
27:56and so forth as as existential
28:00so i think uh i think there's a certain
28:03similarity there
28:04it it you know it's it's going to back
28:06up to people asking themselves
28:09um what what is this if pardon me for
28:12using this word
28:13in a buddhist context but what is
28:15essential and what is accidental or is
28:18my student put it
28:19what's the baby and what's the bath
28:21water um there was a very interesting
28:23uh i actually start out my article uh by
28:27referring back to a to my mind famous
28:30debate
28:30the tricycle stage in 1997 when stephen
28:34batchelor
28:35uh published buddhism without belief so
28:37the debate between
28:38him and robert thurman on the whole
28:40question of whether you could be a good
28:42buddhist
28:43without believing in rebirth and it
28:46probably won't surprise too many people
28:47in the audience know that bachelor
28:49thought that it was not crucial uh to
28:52believe in rebirth in order to be a good
28:55buddhist
28:55and thurman argued very strongly in
28:58favor of the idea that you
29:00you you had to you really couldn't
29:03practice buddhism
29:04fully uh if you didn't believe in
29:06rebirth
29:07and uh so so you know it's
29:11this is part of the the negotiation that
29:13goes on
29:14when religions confront modernity
29:16deciding again to use that term what's
29:19essential what's accidental and uh what
29:22what can we what can we absolutely not
29:25do without
29:26i think i you know if i had to
29:29stake my money on it i would say that
29:32the case with rebirth is a little bit
29:34different
29:35than the case with say christianity
29:38uh with christians who might reject the
29:41resurrection
29:42but again uh i you'll you will be able
29:45to
29:45you'll find plenty of more traditional
29:48buddhists
29:48uh and and you know including westerners
29:51who will say no
29:52you know part of thurman's uh point and
29:54i've heard this echoed by others
29:56that i've discussed this with as well is
29:59if
30:00if you don't believe in rebirth and what
30:02meaning do say bodhisattva vows or the
30:04development of bodhichitta have
30:07um you know you're you're vowing
30:10until enlightenment to work for the
30:12benefit of all beings and and if
30:15if there's only just this one life in
30:17which you're doing that doesn't it
30:19it just becomes a pale imitation
30:22of uh let's let's focus on that for a
30:24minute because of course when bob
30:26um cites that he's citing the promonto
30:28city
30:29um chapter argument that dharmacurity
30:31offers that you and i have actually both
30:33written about
30:34um and i'm um i've always been
30:37interested in that argument
30:39because it's sometimes cast and yeltsin
30:43casts it that way um as an argument for
30:46the reality of rebirth
30:47but of course if you read it what it
30:49really is is an argument
30:51that you've got to believe in rebirth
30:54whether you can prove it or not for
30:56exactly that reason
30:57because the bodhisattva path dharma
30:59charity argues makes no sense
31:01unless you've got a genuine aspiration
31:03to attain awakening
31:04and no sane person could think they're
31:06going to attain awakening this lifetime
31:08so you've got to believe that um there's
31:11going to be future lives
31:12now yeah i'll tell you what i think
31:15that's a terrible argument
31:17um and i'd i'd love to know what you
31:19think about it and here's why i think
31:21it's a terrible argument right
31:22i think it's a terrible argument because
31:24it confuses the need to believe in the
31:26future
31:27with the need to believe in my future so
31:30if i imagine myself
31:31building um i'm switching slides a few
31:34times in this discussion but i think
31:35it's fun to do that
31:36if um if i imagine myself building a
31:39medieval cathedral that might have taken
31:41three or four hundred years and i'm
31:42working on the foundation
31:44um i think of myself as building that
31:46cathedral and committed to that project
31:48even though my grandchildren won't live
31:49to see it done
31:51if i'm working on a major scientific
31:54project that i think is going to take
31:55generations
31:56i might see myself as committed to it
31:59and knowing that my work's going to be
32:00instrumental
32:01even if i'm not going to be around later
32:03and i've always thought that you could
32:05think of bodhichitta
32:06like them doesn't reply to bob right
32:08that if you you could think of
32:10bodhichitta like that
32:12and just say hey i'm committed to the
32:15importance of somebody awakening for the
32:17benefit of all sentient beings
32:19and you know i'll work with my students
32:21and get them a little further along and
32:23they'll work with some other students
32:24and
32:25generations down the road this
32:26particular cathedral will be finished
32:28and sentient beings will be liberated
32:30um and you might even say that's a
32:32version of bodhichitta
32:33with less ego grasping than dharmacurity
32:36wants right
32:37um because hey i'm not involved in that
32:40right
32:40so i'm wondering what you think of that
32:43pramana city argument that really does
32:45underlie thurman's um defense against
32:48against bachelor well i would say first
32:51that i find
32:52what you just articulated in intriguing
32:55in the extreme and i think there's a
32:57a lot that could be said for it i'm not
32:59sure i agree that you've characterized
33:01dharmakirti's argument
33:03quite fairly uh because i think you say
33:06that
33:07dharmakurti is basically saying you've
33:08got to believe
33:10in future law past lives and future
33:12lives
33:13whereas dharma kirti and i think those
33:15who have followed him
33:17first in indian tradition and then
33:18especially in tibetan tradition
33:20believes that he has shown through
33:23rational demonstration
33:25that rebirth must be the case and
33:29the the the major focus of the first
33:31half of the pramana city chapter this is
33:34the second chapter
33:35is by tibetan accounting of of uh
33:37dharmakirti's masterwork the
33:39promontovartico or exposition of valid
33:41cognition
33:42anyway um he's he's actually setting out
33:45to
33:46to show that the buddha is a
33:49is an authority
33:52someone who has become authoritative and
33:55he sets out to show this through
33:57proving that the buddha could
34:00become uh fully compassionate that's the
34:04he says the proof in the sense of a
34:07logical proof is compassion
34:09um and he then in the in in the second
34:13half of the chapter he
34:14he sets out to prove that the four noble
34:15truths are true
34:17and that therefore the buddha is a truth
34:18speaker and we should rely on him anyway
34:20it's the first half of the chapter that
34:22has a really detailed attempt at a proof
34:25of rebirth and this is done primarily
34:29it's done partly through a rejection of
34:32uh
34:32sort of contemporaneous materialist
34:35arguments
34:36in india um but it's done above all and
34:39this circles back to something i said
34:41much earlier it circles back
34:43to a set of arguments about the actual
34:45relation between
34:46mind and body because if you if you
34:49can't show
34:50that mind is sufficiently independent of
34:54the body we would now
34:55typically say the brain but if you can't
34:57show that mind is officially independent
34:59of body
35:00that it can survive death then
35:03this is it the materialists are right
35:05game's over
35:06um and if as is
35:09fairly obvious you can't develop
35:12infinite compassion or compassion to the
35:14nth degree
35:15in a single life or the the people who
35:17can do so are very very rare anyway
35:19and if we are to have any spiritual hope
35:22then there
35:22there must be multiple lives in which to
35:25practice and
35:26notice you've relied on the spiritual
35:28hope point there right
35:30that is the aspiration bodhichitta
35:33requires the belief in future lives i
35:35think that's really
35:36the core there i mean there's the
35:37terrible argument about homogeneity of
35:39costs
35:40that nobody can take seriously right um
35:43and then there's this one that says you
35:45can't be
35:46at least a mahayana buddhist unless you
35:49believe in rebirth
35:50because you can't take your own
35:52perfectability seriously
35:54and if you can't you can't cultivate
35:56bodhichitta that's the mahayana path
35:58right right
35:59right i agree yes yes that's that's and
36:01that's certainly the framework
36:03within which dharma charity is arguing
36:06what do you think of the argument what
36:07do you think of the argument
36:09you know i've i i wrote about this long
36:12ago
36:13it feels like a past life in fact my
36:16sort of dharmacharity phase but
36:18um i i argued then and i think
36:22i would still be tempted to argue now
36:24that the fundament
36:26that when for instance dharma kirti
36:29gets down to it and says that well
36:32body is coarse and material and
36:35insentient
36:37and mind is clear and immaterial and
36:41knowing um and that therefore they can't
36:44the one cannot be the substantial cause
36:47or the
36:48um the the sort of indispensable
36:51condition
36:51of the other and that's the core of his
36:53argument that seems to me
36:56more or less to beg the question yeah
36:59because it's defining
37:00these terms in such a way that
37:04you obviously they're going to end up
37:06being different but let me just
37:08let me just add that in in
37:11in recent times i i'm not sure i would
37:13go back
37:14on that but i've got to say that you you
37:17might imagine
37:18that in his own way dharma kirti is
37:21raising
37:22what philosophers of mine and again you
37:23can say much more about this than i can
37:25and tell me whether i'm right about this
37:28call the the hard problem or the very
37:30hard problem the fact that
37:32um all the materialist and neurological
37:35explanations we can give
37:37about how mind can quote supposedly
37:41works
37:42on a neurological basis can't ever
37:45perhaps even in principle fully account
37:48for
37:49the experiential side of our existence
37:52um yeah that there's a way in which
37:55maybe dharmacharity is gesturing at that
37:57i think you're right that he is um i i
38:00mean
38:02we're about to head down a rabbit hole
38:04into which i do not want to duck
38:06um because um fighting about whether
38:09there is a hard problem or how hard it
38:11is can take us
38:12into lots of strange places but i think
38:14you're right that there there is
38:15a kind of analogy there um but i would
38:18say i would agree with you that that
38:20argument
38:20is is just embarrassing right the
38:22homogeneity of causes argument
38:24i really do think it begs the question
38:26exactly the way you suggest that it does
38:28but i want to come back um just for a
38:31second to that
38:32aspirational argument okay um the one
38:36that because this is the one that you
38:37could really
38:38imagine um being put to a contemporary
38:42western buddhist who denies rebirth
38:44and you say are you a mahayana
38:46practitioner and she says
38:48absolutely i am are you following the
38:50bodhisattva path absolutely i am
38:52have you cultivated bodhichitta
38:54absolutely i have
38:55do you aspire to awaken for the sake of
38:58all sentient beings
38:59yes do you think you're going to pull
39:00that off in the next 40 or 50 years
39:03no way so what kind of aspiration do you
39:05have
39:06and i'm wondering whether you think that
39:08arguments got too bad
39:10um i think it's it's it's the nub of of
39:13the problem that i think a lot of us
39:15a lot of people face um and you know
39:18it's interesting that uh
39:20bachelor and therm at the end of the
39:21bachelor thurman debate that
39:23uh the tricycle put on that i mentioned
39:26um
39:26the farthest bachelor is willing to go
39:31he because he's simply not going to
39:33accept that rebirth
39:35is likely or logical
39:38um he's he says he's agnostic on the
39:41question and that
39:42he's of course famous for his uh
39:45buddhist agnosticism
39:47but he does say that he could he thinks
39:49that he could
39:50possibly act in such a way
39:54as to imagine that it might be the case
39:56i'm paraphrasing here
39:58that it might be the case that there is
40:00rebirth and to act
40:02along those lines well that's a
40:05wonderful
40:06um a wonderful idea and i just want to
40:08push you on that too because
40:10here's where there's a kind of affinity
40:12between you and bachelor
40:13um near the end of your essay and i
40:15think it may be after this you know
40:17this question or some follow-up we'll
40:19open this to discussion
40:20but um at the very close of your essay
40:23you characterize
40:24your your position as an as if
40:26agnosticism
40:28and um there's a certain temptation to
40:31say yeah rebirth
40:32uh you could be agnostic about that and
40:34think maybe there's rebirth and science
40:36hasn't found it his holiness and dalai
40:38lama likes to say that sometimes right
40:39he says
40:40okay look if science contradicts
40:41buddhism you go with science
40:43but science hasn't proved that there
40:45isn't rebirth
40:46just hasn't shown that there is but look
40:49there's something a little funny and i
40:51remember when i first read the tricycle
40:53debate i just said oh come on stephen
40:55um what a wimp out um and
40:59you know do you want to say i'm agnostic
41:02about whether mount mayweal is the
41:03center of the universe
41:05um am i um i don't think you're agnostic
41:08about that
41:09though actually should i tell you a
41:11parallel story about this
41:12i would i was once in a conversation
41:14with another mutual friend of ours geshe
41:16belgium
41:18and um was talking about the fact that
41:20his holiness had just said in the
41:21college chakra initiation
41:23that look you just can't accept this
41:25stuff anymore buddhist cosmology with
41:27mount meru at the center
41:28has got to go we want to stick with the
41:30stuff that's important
41:31and i said well what do you think about
41:33that geshe-la and he said this is a sign
41:35of this degenerate age
41:37not even the dalai lama has the karma to
41:40see
41:40mount meru
41:41[Laughter]
41:43wow so
41:47um there are different positions one
41:48could take on mount meru um but it's
41:50there and we don't have the karma to see
41:52it
41:52that it's not there or you could be
41:54agnostic and i'm wondering are you
41:56and as if agnostic about matt mario as
41:58the center of the universe
41:59no not good so why is rebirth different
42:03well it's it's not actually it's it's
42:05all
42:07it's a little hard to explain this
42:09briefly but
42:10but um
42:13it's part of i for me
42:16the the notion of an as-if uh which
42:19is why i i stole the term from freud he
42:22uses it in
42:23sure of an illusion to castigate a
42:26particular
42:27position uh that tries to defend
42:29religion on the basis of well let's just
42:31sort of pretend that religion is true
42:33um but for me it's
42:37it's a matter of working within what i
42:40would call a particular aesthetic
42:42a buddhist aesthetic in which
42:46many of these if you will metaphysical
42:49or cosmological questions are either
42:52shunted aside or put in suspension
42:56and you participate in
42:59the life of the tradition uncertain
43:02about
43:02certain aspects of it and it seems to me
43:05unlikely that there is a mount meru
43:06that's the
43:07center of the universe no no evidence of
43:10that effect
43:10has come to my attention recently but
43:13and then on the other hand
43:14i if i do a mandala offering as a
43:17sort of tibetan buddhist practitioner
43:19i'm imagining
43:20mount meru at the at the center of the
43:23universe where the four continents and
43:25the
43:26the eight you know the various
43:27subcontinents and i
43:29enter into an imaginative procedure
43:32which is what i do
43:33in in many of the of the things that i
43:36do in my capacity as quote a buddhist
43:39so it's it's not uh it's not necessarily
43:44i don't know that it's even necessarily
43:45required
43:47to believe or not to believe it's a
43:49question
43:50of finding and everybody as i say has to
43:53find their own
43:54balance point their own comfort level
43:57with this
43:57this kind of thing but i mean i'll tell
44:01you
44:02you know not exactly a story but i when
44:05i was
44:06reading dharmakirti and you know working
44:08on my dissertation on this
44:10very important chapter of this very
44:12important text
44:13for me initially it was like everything
44:16about
44:17being a buddhist hung in the balance if
44:20dharma kirti's argument worked then
44:22i could be a buddhist if it didn't
44:24forget about it
44:25and i you know the dissertation took a
44:27long time
44:29um and you know when i came to the end
44:31of it i
44:32i more or less concluded as has been
44:35suggested that i didn't quite buy the
44:37argument as as appreciative
44:38as i was of the ingenuity involved
44:41and then i sort of asked myself well
44:43does that mean i got to stop being a
44:44buddhist
44:45and the answer was no because i had in
44:48effect become
44:49buddhist in in the sense of you know a
44:52decade or more of participating in
44:55buddhist life buddhist rituals
44:57debating buddhist philosophy so you know
45:00is is being a an ex or a y or a z
45:04totally a matter of ascent to
45:06propositions and doctrinal
45:09views of one sort or is it a matter of
45:11sort of
45:12feeling your way into a way of of life
45:16and of course i said it about set that i
45:18was denying that but it
45:19wasn't what was a way of life and that
45:21it you know
45:22solely but yeah i won't hold you to
45:24consistency roger
45:26yes yes no i know you would but but
45:28here's a really interesting question
45:29that
45:30rhymes i said i was going to turn it
45:31over to the audience but i've got to ask
45:32you this question
45:33because you just forced me to um if
45:36there is
45:37any doctrine well no that might have
45:39started that way there are several
45:40doctrines that you might say really are
45:42at the heart of buddhism
45:44and that you just really can't imagine
45:46buddhism without them
45:47and one is a doctrine of impermanence
45:49the idea that all phenomena are
45:51impermanent
45:52um of course the buddha says that the
45:54buddhadharma is impermanent too let's
45:56not go
45:56that big but let's just ask about belief
45:59in rebirth
46:00um maybe someone might say
46:04you know the solution to your problem or
46:06as if problem
46:07justice beliefs in mountain maybe was
46:10the center of the universe really were
46:11impermanent and it's time to let them go
46:14maybe belief in rebirth is impermanent
46:16and we just
46:17don't need that anymore um why not
46:21go all the way and then i'm going to
46:23shut up and let people from the audience
46:25ask questions
46:26can i just say one thing though yeah i
46:28mean i would i would agree with you
46:30that i mean again in my own
46:33view there's room for for good and and
46:36and thoughtful disagreement on this but
46:38but for me for a very long time rebirth
46:41has not been
46:43essential nor have all the details of
46:46karma and how it's supposed to work say
46:48although karma
46:49generally seems to me a fairly
46:51compelling
46:52uh psychological system but i for me
46:56what what has the kind of glue that's
46:59held me
47:00together as a buddhist has been um
47:03the doctrine of emptiness but we could
47:05say that that's in some ways an
47:07extension of the doctrine of of
47:09not-self or of bond the
47:13the willingness to explore the mind
47:17and the the importance of developing
47:21pro-social emotions like love and
47:23compassion
47:24sympathetic joy and so forth you know
47:27everything else
47:28it seems to me uh is tends to
47:31tends to pale beside those and though if
47:35for me anyway if there's a core to
47:37buddhism
47:38um it's found in those and in that sense
47:41maybe there's rebirth maybe there isn't
47:43uh but
47:45i keep trying to do what i keep trying
47:47to do um
47:48regardless of whether i'll go to avicii
47:50for writing this essay
47:52yeah you know it's always a possibility
47:54but i don't take that one too
47:56too seriously either i'm with you i mean
47:58for me it's the brahma bihar is an
48:00emptiness and
48:00that's what i'm grateful for in in
48:04in buddhism but it's this has just been
48:06a fascinating conversation as it's all
48:08it's always fun talking with you roger
48:10but i really should shut up now there's
48:11been so many questions
48:13in the q a and in the chat and i'm
48:16hoping that
48:16carolyn has been keeping an eye on them
48:19and can tell us which are the most
48:20important ones to address
48:22i have so we're going to start with a
48:26question from
48:26sean about uh individual
48:30versus the collective in karma and
48:33rebirth
48:34so he's asking you know life continues
48:36consciousness continues but it's not
48:38your life or your consciousness
48:40the karma of your actions continue to
48:42affect future lives and shape the
48:43consciousness of future generations so
48:45he's asking if you can
48:47speak to um the idea of rebirth
48:50as something collective as the the
48:53modernist
48:54uh doctor br
48:57m big heart yeah
49:01yeah yeah go for it roger oh well um car
49:03is a very very interesting case because
49:05he
49:05he uh as many of you know he was the
49:09great leader of the
49:10so-called untouchables or dalits and in
49:12india
49:13an opponent of gandhi became a buddhist
49:15very late in life
49:17wrote this great book called the buddha
49:19and his dhamma in which he
49:20he basically refutes the idea of rebirth
49:24um and and when he thinks about karma
49:27does think of it in
49:28in more collective terms um i mean the
49:32question of
49:32of collective karma is is a tricky one
49:36and i'm not sure i've puzzled it out
49:37entirely
49:39uh they they do talk about in in some of
49:41the abu dharma treatises there is
49:43discussion
49:44of a kind of group karma that that
49:47people will have the tibetans have
49:49often say that that you know their the
49:52group
49:52karma they uh on the basis of which they
49:56had the chinese invade and occupy their
49:58country in the 1950s
50:00was the fact that they as tibetans they
50:03in quotes
50:04had occupied the capital of china during
50:07the 8th century
50:08that this was an instance of collective
50:10karma but
50:11when you dig a little to me anyway and i
50:13becaubody you could speak much more
50:15authoritatively on this and i'll be
50:17dharma experts could but
50:19my sense is that uh collective karma is
50:23really just the sum of
50:26a of individual karmas that have been
50:30undergone by a variety of people
50:33in similar circumstances such that the
50:36actions they perform
50:37lead to similar results similar
50:39environments and so forth
50:41so whether there's a sort of a synergy
50:44of of karma above and beyond
50:48a collection of individual karmas i'm
50:50not so sure about that but i
50:52i i don't i don't know for sure here's
50:55another way to think about that
50:57though um and i'm not denying anything
50:59roger said i think it's a lovely lovely
51:01answer
51:02but just as we can think about
51:04collectives
51:05as supervening on their parts but not
51:07identical to them
51:09so when we think about the you know the
51:11united states for instance
51:12it's not identical to the americans
51:14there are now new ones are being born
51:16and dying and immigrating and emigrating
51:18all the time but we can still talk about
51:21the history of the united states
51:23and we can still talk about um where the
51:26united states is now given what it did
51:28in the past
51:30um without identifying individuals so i
51:33mean it's there's something to be said
51:34that right now
51:36we are reckoning with the collective
51:37karma that um
51:39originated in the institution of chattel
51:42slavery
51:43um and that's true regardless of whether
51:46that's
51:47my karma or roger's karma or anybody
51:49else's karma
51:50as part of this collective we
51:53participate in the karmic consequences
51:55of what this collective did a few
51:58hundred years ago
52:00and i just don't think you can escape
52:01that so when i think about karma which i
52:03think is much easier to naturalize than
52:05rebirth
52:06i think of it as just the consequences
52:08of actions and there are consequences
52:11for actions both individual and
52:13collective and i don't think they need
52:15to be reducible to one another
52:18yeah one other i'm i wasn't quite sure i
52:21got everything in in the question but i
52:24i do want to
52:25at least emphasize the point that and
52:28this is
52:28you know jay presented a very
52:30interesting notion about building the
52:31cathedral and you're not going to live
52:33to see it but your
52:34descendants might i do think that the
52:37traditional buddhist view
52:39is that fundamentally karma
52:42is individual and so whatever i do in
52:45this life there will be
52:47some kind of quote continuation in a
52:49future life
52:51um and of course for buddhists putting
52:53together the notion of rebirth with the
52:55notions of impermanence
52:56especially radical impermanence and no
52:59self has
53:00always been a struggle um it was the
53:02point on which
53:03non-buddhist traditions criticized the
53:05most roundly in
53:07india and of course there have been many
53:08ingenious attempts by buddhists to
53:10explain
53:11how the world can work without a
53:13substantial
53:14permanent self i think the abhidharma
53:17literature which is
53:18sometimes not given very good press
53:21actually is an ingenious attempt to
53:24describe
53:25the world in terms of impermanent events
53:28that don't require
53:30some kind of substantial self all that
53:32notwithstanding
53:34you know i do something bad in this life
53:36the fundamental buddhist view is
53:37i'm going to get my my just desserts in
53:41either this life later or some future
53:43life so
53:44um in that sense karma's not destr
53:48i agree that that the notion of
53:50collective karma is a very interesting
53:52one and
53:52i think of it as a as a construction
53:55though
53:56in ways that that the notion of
53:59individual
53:59karma and rebirth is somewhat less of a
54:02construction
54:03it's all construction all the way down
54:04as we know but that's that's a
54:06discussion for another day
54:10well and i'm wondering we also have some
54:12questions um
54:13you know several people are grappling
54:15with um the doctrine of no self as
54:17you've spoken to briefly and emptiness
54:19and reconciling that with
54:21the idea of reincarnation and rebirth
54:23and you know i'm sure this is something
54:25that
54:26we could speak to for for a long time
54:28and you and you have started to touch on
54:29it but i'm wondering if you if you have
54:30more to say
54:31about that for for those of us who are
54:33still trying to
54:34wrap our heads around you know bringing
54:36the two together
54:38right well i would i would say that the
54:40in fact the classic
54:42i mean there were many presentations of
54:43this in early buddhist tradition but
54:46in some ways the to me the classic
54:48presentation of it is by nagarjuna
54:50the great philosopher of the madyamaka
54:52school the the great philosopher of
54:54emptiness
54:55um who in the in the 18th verse of the
54:5924th chapter of his fundamental stances
55:01on the middle way
55:03which i've heard his holiness the dalai
55:05discourse on just that
55:07verse for like two hours at a time he
55:10he he makes an equation between
55:13emptiness and dependent origination
55:15dependent origination is
55:17another way of talking about how causes
55:20and conditions
55:21bring about events in the world and and
55:23it's all impermanent
55:25uh all of that and uh for nagarjuna
55:29you know the the in the context of that
55:32chapter
55:33uh nagarjuna's opponent is saying well
55:34look if everything is empty and
55:36nagarjuna has spent 23 chapters
55:38showing this is empty that is empty you
55:41know time is empty motion is empty
55:43causation is empty
55:44he seems to it seems to be utterly
55:46nihilistic and the opponent says well
55:48if that's the case then and i'm
55:49paraphrasing a bit here but then
55:51you know basic items of the buddhist
55:53path and cosmology are empty too and
55:55they're
55:56they're annihilated and nagarjuna says
55:59you've totally misunderstood what i'm
56:01doing i'm talking from the ultimate
56:04standpoint
56:05from the ultimate standpoint there is no
56:08substantially existent causation or
56:11time or motion or buddha for that matter
56:14but uh in fact conventionally all these
56:18things
56:19are reasonable and exist and in fact and
56:22here's one of the great sort of
56:24jujitsu moves in indian philosophical
56:27history he said
56:28it's it's not only that emptiness does
56:31not
56:31annihilate rebirth and the path
56:35and buddhahood and our hot ship it's
56:38that if things were not empty none of
56:41this could could actually be the case
56:43because the world
56:45is if you will common sensically a
56:47changing
56:48shifting impermanent world and
56:52dependent arising is simply the term
56:54that the term that describes that
56:56and things cannot dependently arise if
57:00they are empty
57:01if they are not empty because the
57:03opposite of being empty is being
57:04permanent independent heartless and so
57:07forth so it's a
57:08it's a brilliant move now you know for
57:10some
57:11nagarjuna himself uh at the end of
57:13another text of his the averting the
57:16arguments and his commentary to the very
57:18last verse
57:19basically says you know emptiness is
57:21dependent arising and be because of the
57:24in effect because of emptiness all
57:26dependent arisings
57:27are valid and true i.e the conventional
57:30world is true
57:31and this includes our hot ship rebirth
57:34and so forth and so on now i would not
57:36make that jump i would say that
57:39emptiness does
57:40as nagarjuna brilliantly argues
57:42establish the validity of the
57:44conventional world but
57:46what the conventional world actually
57:47consists of whether there's rebirth or
57:50not
57:50uh whether the sky is blue whether
57:53there's mount meru all these
57:54are matters for if you will conventional
57:57philosophical debate
57:59um so but but the key thing here is
58:02is the the harmony between uh dependent
58:06arising and emptiness such that
58:08to say things are empty is to say that
58:10they arise dependently to say that they
58:12arise dependently
58:14is to say that they are empty this is a
58:15point that nagarjuna makes
58:17songkappa in the tibetan tradition made
58:20very very powerfully and uh his holiness
58:23the dalai lama makes repeatedly
58:26um so it's a it's a key to uh showing
58:29that
58:29the the the doctrines of emptiness or no
58:31self are not nihilistic
58:36that's very helpful thank you um another
58:40question are there descriptions of
58:42bodhichitta you've come across that
58:44don't require
58:44rebirth and a belief in karma
58:48um i mean
58:51you know literature on bodhichitta
58:54itself tends
58:55because it you know traditional
58:56literature tends to be framed within the
58:58assumption
58:59of multiple lives and of the reality of
59:03karma
59:04i mean i i think that modern
59:07you know just as i suggested that there
59:09are certain buddhist doctrines and
59:10practices that
59:12you could probably follow
59:15or accept without necessarily uh
59:18committing absolutely to rebirth it
59:20seems to me that
59:22that the you know the vow to try to be
59:24of benefit to as many beings as possible
59:28i mean that's not even necessarily an
59:30exclusively buddhist
59:32standpoint so it doesn't necessarily you
59:34know i think
59:35christians who who attempt to practice
59:37charity and love
59:39uh they operate within a very different
59:42cosmology
59:43than the buddhist and theirs is not a
59:46rebirth-oriented cosmology
59:48and for that matter secular humanists
59:51who are
59:51who strive to be of benefit to humanity
59:55um and and they don't they don't accept
59:57any
59:58particular religious cosmology and yet
1:00:01it seems to me that that
1:00:03we could count them among if you will
1:00:06the bodhisattvas
1:00:07so i'm i mean i'm i'm willing to to
1:00:09grant a lot of leeway
1:00:10on this and i guess my answer would be
1:00:12no i i don't think that
1:00:15some developing something like
1:00:16bodhichitta requires an acceptance of
1:00:19of rebirth though again traditional
1:00:22buddhists
1:00:23giving traditional explanations of what
1:00:24bodhichitta really means will say
1:00:27you know as i think bob thurman said all
1:00:29those years ago
1:00:30it it tends to weaken weaken it and
1:00:34maybe weaken the resolve too if you
1:00:36don't have
1:00:37this notion of a kind of heroic march
1:00:39through life after life
1:00:41towards some grand and glorious
1:00:43buddhahood
1:00:45on the other hand the great vow in zen
1:00:48is an expression of the of the
1:00:51bodhisattva vowel
1:00:52does not mention or rely on rebirth at
1:00:55all
1:00:56and in fact acknowledges its own
1:00:58paradoxical nature right
1:01:00sentient beings are about and are
1:01:02countless i vow to save them all right
1:01:04right
1:01:05right right buddhadharma is inaccessible
1:01:07i vow to access it access it
1:01:09right so the so would we talk about
1:01:12traditional buddhists we've got to
1:01:13decide which traditions we mean
1:01:14absolutely yeah and you go to east asia
1:01:17bodhichitta is there
1:01:18and rebirth is not quite as
1:01:21there okay yeah yeah and i would agree i
1:01:24mean i i do a lot of work on
1:01:26the mahasiddhas and folks like sarahah
1:01:29and talopa and naropa and their rhetoric
1:01:31is is a bit like that of zen maybe not
1:01:35quite as fully paradoxical but yes
1:01:37there's
1:01:37absolutely when we talk about tradition
1:01:39we have to remember that buddhist
1:01:40tradition has been contested all the way
1:01:43along and that
1:01:44for that matter the so-called tradition
1:01:46modernity
1:01:47divide is quite arbitrary um
1:01:51so everything is uh things have been up
1:01:53for grabs for a long time not just since
1:01:55you know 1800 or something
1:02:00well i think we have to end it there
1:02:01it's just after four but thank you so
1:02:03much both of you for this
1:02:05wonderful conversation and thank you for
1:02:07everyone who joined us on the call and
1:02:09asked their questions this
1:02:12this talk will be recorded and it will
1:02:14be available on our youtube channel so
1:02:16we'll give you the link in the chat
1:02:19this is the final conversation in this
1:02:21series so thank you again to everyone
1:02:23who
1:02:23joined us throughout the week and again
1:02:26we're providing these sessions for free
1:02:28so
1:02:28if you feel moved to donate please do so
1:02:30at the link in the chat box
1:02:32and don't forget that you can receive 30
1:02:34off your copy of secularizing buddhism
1:02:37uh also by clicking on the link and the
1:02:39coupon code in the chat box
1:02:41so thanks again roger thank you jay and
1:02:44everyone thanks for bringing us together
1:02:46yeah it's great fun thank you
1:02:48take care take care

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