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Secular Feminist: ‘Bring Back Christian Sexual Ethics’ | Guest: Louise Perry | Ep 674 — Transcript

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0:00the sexual revolution lied to us
0:03promising liberation satisfaction and
0:05happiness it has only delivered pain
0:08confusion and destruction author louise
0:11perry argues from a secular feminist
0:13perspective that abandoning christian
0:15regulations on marriage and sex has
0:18gotten us here and she's got some
0:20fascinating advice on how we can recover
0:22from the brokenness caused by sexual
0:24liberalism this episode is brought to
0:26you by our friends at good ranchers go
0:29to goodranchers.com ally that's
0:31goodranchers.com ally
0:38[Music]
0:43louise thank you so much for joining us
0:45before we get started can you tell us
0:47who you are what you do
0:50i'm louise perry i'm a journalist and
0:52author based in london uk
0:55and you wrote a book the case against
0:57the sexual revolution a new guide to sex
1:01in the 21st century before we get into
1:03the content of the book can you first
1:05just set us up
1:06why did you write it
1:10i mean it's kind of a decade's work
1:14um even though i wrote it pretty quickly
1:16um i wrote it basically between um
1:19learning i was pregnant with my son and
1:21him being six months old which wasn't
1:23very clever i can anyone listening is
1:25considering writing a book at the same
1:26time as having a baby i would advise
1:28against it but
1:29um
1:30this was
1:32so i mean my first job out of university
1:34was working in a rape crisis center
1:36and i've
1:38since worked as a campaigner on sexual
1:40violence and the law
1:42and a lot of my journalism has been
1:44focused around this topic in all sorts
1:45of different ways so it was something
1:47i've been thinking about for a really
1:48long time
1:50and having a lot of conversations with
1:51young women
1:53all of whom are saying the same things
1:55you know there is something deeply
1:57deeply wrong
1:58with our sexual culture
2:00um and that the standard narratives
2:03available to us the progressive
2:05narrative about the sexual revolution
2:06which says that this was all for women's
2:09sake you know that it was it was all
2:11about maximizing our freedom
2:13and that we should be grateful for it i
2:15think actually if you look at
2:17how young women are actually
2:18experiencing the post-sexual revolution
2:20era i just don't think it stacks up at
2:22all so this book is a
2:24it's an interrogation of that of that
2:26narrative
2:27tell us what the sexual revolution is
2:30how would you define it
2:33so are these sort of two things one is
2:36the the material aspect of it the fact
2:38that you have the pill arriving in the
2:42ends of the 1950s into the 1960s and
2:44just completely transforming
2:46um
2:48sex and the the link with reproduction
2:50right for the first time in the history
2:51of the world it suddenly becomes
2:53possible for women to suspend their
2:55fertility
2:57in a way that they can control and that
2:59is
3:00kind of invisible right and it's that
3:02important that we call it the pill with
3:03capital letters you know everyone knows
3:05what you're talking about when you're
3:06talking about lapel because of its
3:08incredible importance it's not the only
3:10material change that brings us here but
3:12i think it is the most the most
3:13significant one and it's where i date
3:15the beginning of the sexual revolution
3:17um
3:18but then there's also all of the
3:19ideological stuff that comes along with
3:21that as well because this is coming out
3:23of the 1960s and the sort of excuse me
3:26ferment of the post-second world war era
3:28and you've got this really strong push
3:31to sort of tear down everything that's
3:33come before and to question everything
3:35that's come before and there's this real
3:37kind of
3:38um
3:39anti-establishment urge
3:41which also applies to sexuality
3:44and
3:45you know what we've basically been left
3:48with
3:49um
3:50post-sexual revolution
3:52is that all of the old sexual norms are
3:54now suspect um particularly
3:58anything associated with
4:00with religion i mean this is this really
4:03should be understood the whole of the
4:04post-60 zero really needs to be
4:06understood as a reaction against
4:07christianity right it's a kind of a
4:09second reformation in that sense
4:11um
4:12and what's the only principle that's
4:15left standing is the principle of
4:17consent
4:18right as long as as long as everyone is
4:20capable of consenting and they and they
4:23enthusiastically consent that
4:24everything's fine everything is on the
4:25table you know
4:27um and my argument is that actually the
4:30consent framework
4:31doesn't work it is completely pitiful
4:34right as a means of actually trying to
4:36regulate um relationships between men
4:38and women which are far more
4:41complex and difficult and high stakes
4:43than the consent framework permits yes
4:46we've talked about that before when
4:47consent is your only determinant of what
4:51is virtuous and what is not then as you
4:54said a lot of things that are actually
4:57immoral and exploitative are on the
5:01table
5:02um consent is
5:04a part of determining what is good and
5:07what is not what is acceptable and what
5:08is not but it's really the bare minimum
5:11it is not the only standard and that's
5:13how you kind of get these maxims of the
5:16sexual revolution or what i would call
5:18maximums of the sexual revolution which
5:20is sex work is work or there's such a
5:23thing as ethical pornography or who
5:26cares if these women are singing about
5:28these things doing these things if
5:30they're objectifying themselves it's
5:32okay because they are consenting to
5:35that objectification
5:37tell us a little bit more about the
5:39consequences of this consent as the only
5:43standard of
5:44decency culture that the sexual
5:46revolution has created
5:49the term that i use in the book is um
5:52sexual disenchantment the idea that sex
5:55used to have some sort of special status
5:57some actual like sacred status right in
5:59in not just in christianity and all all
6:02religious traditions have some kind of
6:04um sacredness surrounding sex and rules
6:06about when you can do it and with who
6:08and so forth um
6:10but what what sexual disenchantment
6:13as an idea does is it says that actually
6:15no sex needn't be any more significant
6:18than any other kind of social
6:20interaction it can be completely morally
6:22neutral if people want to invest meaning
6:24in it they can but they don't have to it
6:26can just be like shaking hands or
6:28whatever other kind of neutral thing you
6:29want to imagine
6:31which means of course you can buy it you
6:32can sell it
6:35you can
6:36objectify yourself as much as you like
6:38that's fine um the problem with sexual
6:41disenchantment i mean there are two
6:42problems with it one is that
6:45if you really are serious about saying
6:46that sex is no different from other
6:48other kinds of social interaction
6:51then you can't continue to have special
6:53status for rape
6:54exactly right or for sexual harassment
6:56or for any of these things which we know
6:58viscerally feel
7:00deeply different from say theft
7:03and the law recognizes that and all of
7:05our social institutions recognize that
7:07but if you really want to say that sex
7:09actually doesn't have any special status
7:10then how can you possibly argue that
7:11rape should have special status
7:13and this is i think the problem with
7:14sexual disenchantment that
7:16if you follow it through to its logical
7:18conclusions it actually has horrible
7:20horrible outcomes
7:21which is why basically no one does like
7:23no one actually lives as if sexual
7:24disenchantment was true people might say
7:26that they do and they might rhetorically
7:29kind of appeal to it what so you get
7:31phrases like as you say sex workers work
7:34which is um designed to kind of
7:36challenge us to say but what is
7:38different about sex you know when it
7:40comes down to it isn't isn't it just
7:41like working in mcdonald's isn't it just
7:43like selling other any other kind of
7:44labor
7:45and the problem you get down to in those
7:47arguments
7:48is that
7:50the differentness of sex the specialness
7:51of sex is quite hard to articulate
7:54it's not something that can easily be
7:56packaged up in a sort of rational
7:57argument because it's it's not really to
7:59do with rationalities to do with emotion
8:01feeling and the kind of gut level
8:04response that we have as human beings to
8:06sexual interaction and i think
8:07particularly
8:08for women i mean one of the
8:10one of the the um ways that men and
8:12women differ on average in terms of
8:14sexuality there are all sorts of them
8:15but but one which is interesting and
8:17important is that women have a much
8:19lower sexual disgust threshold than men
8:22which is one of those things that you
8:23can measure quite objectively by things
8:25like sweating and heart rate and things
8:28like that when we feel disgusted we have
8:30all these involuntary physical responses
8:32which you can which you can test for
8:34and
8:35women's threshold for feeling sexual
8:37disgust is a lot lower than
8:39men's we get what it's called
8:40colloquially getting the ick
8:42when you
8:44like really just kind of feel horribly
8:45repulsive and i think yeah yeah and
8:48particularly i think when it's
8:49associated with any kind of like sexual
8:51aggression
8:52there's that fear combined with disgust
8:55which i don't think there's a word for
8:56as i mentioned in the book that i've
8:58every woman i've spoken to says i i
9:00completely understand that that feeling
9:02i know it you feel it like in your bones
9:04it's that strong right but there's isn't
9:06a word for it um and it's something that
9:09men are much less likely to to
9:11experience and it all comes down to the
9:13fact that you know one the fact that
9:14women are just physically vulnerable in
9:16a way that men aren't because we're
9:17smaller and we're weaker than men are um
9:20but also that
9:21we're evolved to have quite different
9:25kinds of sexuality and quite different
9:27responses to things like choosing
9:28partners you know the nature of getting
9:30pregnant is that um
9:33sex is hugely consequential for women
9:35potentially because you've got a long
9:37pregnancy you've got dangerous labor
9:39you've got many many years of
9:41of child care
9:43that that's really important that
9:45matters right it's no wonder we evolved
9:48to be picky about who we want to have
9:49sex with because that's those are the
9:51potential consequences you don't want to
9:52be choosing the wrong man he's not going
9:53to stick around or whatever
9:55whereas in theory men can have men can
9:58reproduce every time they have sex with
9:59basically no like physical risk to
10:02themselves
10:03which means which doesn't mean that men
10:05like are always focused on just having
10:08as many partners as possible not at all
10:10like male sexuality is very flexible
10:12i talk in the book about cad and dad
10:14mode so dad mode is obviously all
10:16focused towards um marriage and family
10:19and stability and really like investing
10:21in your in in your in your genetic line
10:24right whereas cad mode is all about
10:27sowing your wild oats
10:29um that's a phrase that's used in
10:31america yes yes yeah
10:34we don't say cat as much but i think
10:36that we know what you mean so when
10:37you're wild it's definitely familiar
10:39yeah
10:40um
10:41and then can you know
10:44some men are more drawn to one sort of
10:46mode than the other but most men are
10:48capable of both
10:50and it's about and it depends on context
10:52and it depends on incentives and what
10:55kind of social structures are in place
10:57to
10:58to to motivate men to behave in one or
11:00other ways and i think what's happened
11:02to the sexual revolution that we've
11:03we've got rid of so many of the
11:05structures that used to exist
11:07to regulate sexual relationships which
11:10were oppressive right in a sense in
11:12and then this is often the the argument
11:14the feminist argument that's made
11:16against marriage is that marriage
11:18oppresses women to which they say yeah
11:20it does but you know it oppresses men as
11:22well
11:23and it also
11:25protects the interests of women and it
11:26also protects the interests of men the
11:28whole point of marriage is that it is a
11:30restriction
11:31you know you stand up in front of
11:32everyone and you promise to be with this
11:34person for everyone to be faithful to
11:35them and to and to support them
11:37financially emotionally socially
11:38everything
11:39and you sign a piece of paper to that
11:42effect which places restrictions on your
11:44behavior
11:45on both of you that's the point but it
11:48also means that you it provides a stable
11:50basis to form your life together and to
11:52have children together and if you if
11:54you're tearing down
11:56those kind of institutions that are in
11:58place to encourage men into dad mode
12:01essentially
12:02we shouldn't be surprised to discover
12:04that actually
12:06like male sexual misbehavior is is is so
12:09much so much easier and so much less
12:11punished now yeah
12:13without those structures in place
12:14because as you as you're saying consent
12:16just isn't enough there is so much
12:18terrible behavior which yeah jumps over
12:21that very very low bar the consent bar
12:25[Music]
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13:45[Music]
13:49gosh i have so much to say and so many
13:52thoughts based on what you just said
13:53starting at the end talking about
13:56marriage being oppressive what you mean
13:58when you say marriage is oppressive is
14:00kind of what you explained that it's
14:02oppressive in the sense that it is
14:03restrictive it is
14:06um it's supposed to be a structure that
14:08inhibits you from engaging in certain
14:10kinds of behavior and stops you from
14:13doing some things that you may want to
14:15do but are unhealthy both for the
14:17relationship for your kids also for
14:20society in general
14:22i would probably say
14:24that it is more than like repressive
14:27than oppressive i guess when i think of
14:29oppressive i think of
14:31unjustly holding someone down whereas
14:33repressive might just be holding
14:35something back for better for worse i
14:37would say that
14:39marriage and you know the institution of
14:42marriage anyway is repressive in a
14:45healthy way that yes it is holding
14:48people back as you explained so well
14:50from
14:51things that are not supposed to be
14:53acceptable
14:54in the balance of marriage now what i'm
14:57interested to hear are you um are you
15:00religious do you consider yourself
15:01religious
15:03no i'm coming at this from a kind of
15:05secular perspective i mean i'm i'm
15:07religious in the sense that i um
15:09i think actually all of us are um
15:14i think that christian morality is
15:16actually deeply deeply baked in to
15:20western societies right like 2 000 years
15:23of christian tradition
15:26didn't end suddenly in the 1960s so i
15:28think that a lot of what i'm writing
15:30about in the book and i think one of the
15:31reasons that the book is appealed to
15:34a christian audience as well as secular
15:35audience
15:36are
15:37christian virtues which are universally
15:40recognized even if they're not
15:41acknowledged as being christian if that
15:43makes sense so things like defense of
15:45the weak
15:46humility
15:48um
15:49these are not actually universal virtues
15:52right and they certainly weren't
15:53considered so in the first century roman
15:55world right these are these are
15:57christian virtues which i think still
15:59resonate yes um which is a complicated
16:02way of saying sort of yes so this is
16:04your question yes and this is a i mean
16:07i'm a christian this is a christian
16:08podcast and that is part of why this is
16:10so interesting and one thing that you
16:12said that really struck me
16:14as absolutely true but also troublesome
16:17maybe you could even argue like this is
16:19the entire
16:21problem is that sex cannot be rationally
16:25explained as special as something
16:28different than shaking your hands but as
16:29you said
16:30everyone whether they say so or not
16:32acknowledges that it is in their
16:35repulsion to something like rape or i
16:38would say the vast majority of people
16:40they would not say that there should be
16:43the same punishment for someone coming
16:45up and slapping you on the face versus
16:47someone raping you they know that there
16:49is a difference even if they say
16:50something ridiculous like sex work is
16:52work and it doesn't matter how many
16:54sexual partners that you have it's just
16:55liberating and great they understand
16:57that sex is different than you know your
17:00normal
17:00interaction negative or positive
17:04it really can't be explained though why
17:07that is as you like kind of briefly
17:09touched on
17:10you said without talking about like the
17:12mental and emotional the feeling part of
17:14it but of course from my perspective i'm
17:17saying no it's a spiritual it's the
17:19spiritual part of it that i would argue
17:22it is because there is something
17:24deep and almost intangible in all of us
17:27because we are made in god's image
17:29because he made us male and female
17:31because he made us
17:34for the kind of sexual intimacy that is
17:36only really practiced in a healthy and
17:38productive and fruitful way
17:41in the boundaries of monogamous
17:44marriage that is why somehow innately we
17:48know and have suppressed through our
17:50sexual you know
17:52revolution mores we have suppressed what
17:55i believe god placed in all of us that
17:57we understand that sex is special that
18:00sex is for commitment it is for a
18:02covenant that it is um
18:05it is a reflection of something much
18:07bigger and much deeper and much more
18:09eternal than we can actually give
18:13word to and i think our disgust even the
18:16secular person's disgust of things like
18:19rape and things like pedophilia i think
18:22it speaks to
18:24how god made us that god placed
18:26something in us and so as you already
18:28mentioned even from a secular
18:29perspective if post-1960s is a backlash
18:33against christian morality specifically
18:36christian sexual morality then of course
18:39it would make sense
18:41that
18:42our thoughts about sex have gone in the
18:45direction
18:46that it has because christianity as you
18:49mentioned for the last 2000 years
18:51totally disrupted the pagan roman world
18:53and how they viewed sex also as just
18:55something that you do people or just
18:57people that you use children doesn't
18:59matter
19:00um christianity's disrupted that and now
19:02that we have kind of rejected it
19:05we're going back to the pagan era and
19:07how they viewed bodies and how they
19:09viewed sex so anyway i just kind of
19:11wanted to give my christian perspective
19:13on that but i'm curious just kind of
19:14what you think about that
19:18i mean yeah i think that the
19:21yeah i don't think it can be
19:22underestimated quite how
19:24like appalling
19:26um
19:27sexual ethics were in antiquity right
19:29and if you're looking at the the first
19:32century christian
19:33introduction of the new kind of sexual
19:35ethics
19:36um they are radically transformative and
19:39i think that is really worth bearing in
19:41mind
19:42um
19:44when thinking about modern feminism
19:46which is often
19:47which is often set up as being in direct
19:49opposition to to to christianity and to
19:52other kind and other religious
19:53traditions too but particularly like in
19:55an american and british context we're
19:56primarily talking about christianity
19:59um
20:00and i think that's a mistake because i
20:02think i mean there are a lot of
20:02different strains of feminism and
20:04clearly there are um all sorts of
20:06internal discussions within feminism
20:08which are you know worth having but
20:10you know when it comes down to it a lot
20:12of
20:12basic feminist ideals which i think
20:14basically everyone can can agree with
20:16regardless of whether or not they call
20:18themselves feminists you know the idea
20:19that women's
20:20um women's interests ought to be
20:22protected
20:24um so women's
20:26emotional lives
20:27matter women's distress matters you know
20:29all this kind of stuff
20:31which is not taken as read in say the
20:33roman world right um
20:37those ideas about equality and the
20:39protection of the weak and so on
20:42are originally christian ideas even if
20:45they're now somewhat divorced from the
20:47actual theology
20:49and i think it is an error to see
20:51um feminism and christianity isn't
20:53necessarily an opposition
20:56even if there might be points of debate
20:57as they always have been you know across
20:59across the last 2000 years there have
21:01always been internal disputes and so
21:03forth
21:04um
21:05i think it is a terrible error for
21:07feminists some feminists
21:09to think that tearing down
21:13um
21:14the old sexual morality would
21:16necessarily lead to women's
21:19women's lives improving in any way
21:21because actually there are a lot of
21:23alternative systems of sexual ethics to
21:25the christian ones and a lot of them are
21:27a hell of a lot
21:28worse than what prevailed until recently
21:31in our society you know i i
21:34one of the arguments i make in in favor
21:36of marriage
21:37you know writing for a secular audience
21:39who who are not who are not necessarily
21:41going to be persuaded by the by the
21:42religious arguments right but i say
21:44look if we look at this rationing we
21:46look at the data there's a lot of data
21:47on this
21:50polygamous systems
21:52are much worse
21:54for women and children than our
21:55monogamous systems of marriage right
21:57polygamous systems are in some sense are
21:59kind of natural states
22:01um most societies on the anthropological
22:04record have been polygynous so
22:06permitting men to take multiple wives
22:09um
22:10our closest primate ancestors are also
22:12polychynas this this seems to be to some
22:14extent our default that we drift towards
22:16and actually you'll see on things like
22:17dating apps which has offers like a
22:19wealth of of data on this you will see
22:21that left our own devices without that
22:24kind of monogamous restriction coming
22:25externally
22:27people do tend to drift back towards a
22:28kind of polygonist system where you have
22:30the high status men
22:32accumulating lots of
22:34wives girlfriends um and low status men
22:37having none at all
22:39the problem with that kind of
22:41society is it tends to produce a lot
22:44more um domestic violence
22:47because households with
22:49lots of co-wives tend to produce a lot
22:52of conflict a lot more child abuse
22:57more crime because you have this massive
23:00unmarried men who are
23:02um frustrated and don't have any reason
23:04really to tame themselves because that's
23:06that's that's very often what marriage
23:08and
23:09having children does to men it it i mean
23:11literally we can measure it it reduces
23:12testosterone in men um when they have a
23:15child at home and they're involved in
23:16that child's care their testosterone
23:18levels
23:19in a good way yeah and then it's a it's
23:21a it's a softening of kind of
23:23um male aggression particularly youthful
23:26male aggression
23:28whereas in a monogamous system
23:30um
23:32crime rates drop domestic violence rates
23:34drop child abuse drops you know it's in
23:36some sense not a natural system because
23:38it's not the one that we kind of tend to
23:41do towards by default and it it is
23:44the the group of people that it places
23:46real restrictions on are the high status
23:48men right who want to take on multiple
23:50wives if they have the opportunity to
23:52is why anthropologists call this the um
23:54the puzzle of monogamous marriage why
23:56monogamous marriage would have been ever
23:58become as successful as it has
24:00um and as widespread as it is nowadays
24:03and the answer is that yes it it
24:05restricts
24:06the
24:07high status men who are not you know in
24:10general setting the terms
24:12but it has so many other benefits for a
24:14society
24:15that
24:16it tends to produce stable societies
24:19which survive and expand
24:21so
24:22i think that you can end up
24:24through
24:25the more kind of rational
24:28data-driven arguments at some of the
24:30same conclusions that have been reached
24:32by
24:33um old religious traditions
24:36with the exception as you say i think of
24:38of the of the the argument against
24:40sexual disenchantment which really does
24:42come down to
24:44emotion
24:45but then
24:46you know we we are we are human animals
24:49right in the sense that we are
24:51we are
24:52we are driven by our emotions
24:54and i think to say that we should be
24:56kind of
24:58i think that a lot of what a lot of the
25:00reason that young women are experiencing
25:01a lot of distress in a culture of casual
25:03sex and porn and all that you know all
25:05the stuff that i'm describing
25:08is because what they're being asked to
25:09do is basically suppress their instincts
25:13that their instincts towards wanting to
25:15have emotional attachment in sexual
25:16relationships
25:17towards feeling um
25:20anxious about being with men that they
25:23don't know
25:24all of the kind of red flags which
25:26instinctively crop up that feeling of
25:27disgust and fear you know these are very
25:30very deeply ingrained instincts in us
25:32and they're there for a reason that that
25:34you know they are self-protective
25:36and one of the things that i
25:38reject about um sex positive feminism is
25:41even though in theory it's supposed to
25:43be all about kind of um promoting
25:45people's sexual well-being and so on
25:47what i think it does in practice is it
25:50actually
25:51um
25:52encourages women in particular
25:55to
25:56ignore their instincts and to try and
25:58retrain themselves to be more like men
26:00to have sex like men to see this as a
26:03liberatory goal
26:04rather than saying no female sexuality
26:06is actually fine
26:08as it is right it's actually good to to
26:11you know to want to to combine love with
26:14sex it's it's good to want to commit to
26:16one person and so on these are not bad
26:18instincts that women should be trained
26:20out of one of the phrases i i hate so
26:23much that is um has become popular this
26:25century and you see it in the media and
26:26so on is catching feelings
26:28the idea that if you're having a sexual
26:30relationship with someone and you start
26:31feeling emotional attachment this is
26:33some sort of disease that you've caught
26:35that you need to be avoiding and you get
26:36these
26:37the horrific guides in women's mags and
26:40so on um
26:42advising
26:43um i mean it's presented in a
26:45gender-neutral way but we all know
26:46what's really going on right there
26:48advising young women
26:50who find themselves in a culture of
26:51casual sex don't like it
26:54are feeling unhappy but also feel as
26:56though this is compulsory they have to
26:58go through this
26:59um
27:01advising them things like don't make eye
27:02contact with your sexual partner um take
27:05drugs before you have sex to soften your
27:07emotional responses
27:09all this kind of you know
27:11encouraging these women to emotionally
27:12mutilate themselves and my question is
27:14for what purpose right to serve to serve
27:18the male libido basically i think is is
27:21what it comes down to i don't think
27:22that's this serving women's interests in
27:24the least
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28:46i've heard from a lot of young women in
28:49particular
28:50those who
28:51call themselves d transitioners this
28:54seems to be a common theme in their
28:56backgrounds in the stories that i have
28:58read and also the ones that i've
29:00personally spoken to
29:02is that especially those who are young
29:04like you know 10 years younger than me
29:06and so they really grew up coming of age
29:08during the social
29:09media
29:10era and they felt
29:13as young
29:14women very over sexualized and felt a
29:17pressure at a very young age to be
29:20sexual not just sexually active but
29:22dress sexually talk sexually
29:25dance sexually on social media send
29:28pictures to boys and i'm sure that
29:29pressure to some extent has always been
29:32there
29:32for young women to try to perform in
29:35some way to gain the satisfaction and
29:36approval of young men but with social
29:41media and just kind of our media and pop
29:43culture as it is it seems like the
29:45pressure is stronger more ubiquitous and
29:48so a lot of these women what i find
29:50interesting who transitioned so-called
29:52into being a man a common theme that i
29:55find is that they were uncomfortable
29:58as a 12 13 year old with the pressure to
30:02be sexual with always feeling like a
30:04sexual object feeling like prey and
30:08feeling vulnerable because of that
30:11and felt that if they transitioned or
30:13they started being more masculine then
30:16that made them less vulnerable there was
30:18less pressure
30:19and it's sad because i mean puberty
30:21involves a lot of discomfort for girls
30:24and always and boys and always has and
30:27so of course sexuality and the discovery
30:29of all of that at teenage years is
30:31already awkward and difficult but it
30:33seems like objectification and the
30:35sexualization of young people especially
30:37young girls
30:39is
30:40more it's bigger than it has been before
30:43i don't think it's just leading to
30:45confusion about gender and that kind of
30:47thing i think it's leading to a lot of
30:49as you said disenchantment self-hatred
30:53um self-resentment just a lot of
30:56confusion about what sex is supposed to
30:58be what the body is who they are how the
31:01mind and the heart and the body all work
31:03together and how it's supposed to is
31:05that something that you've seen what do
31:07you think about that
31:09i completely agree that that must be a
31:11motivation of well i mean so many
31:13transitioners say that it was a very
31:15explicit motivation they were
31:17that
31:18that you know it's always alarming to
31:20some degree to come to to encounter
31:23puberty and suddenly inhabit the body of
31:26a woman and having to negotiate sexual
31:29interest and so on always difficult but
31:30doing so in
31:33a hyper sexualized culture
31:36super pornified you know with the
31:38expectation that you've got you've got
31:40young boys in particular but young girls
31:41too being exposed to porn from really
31:43young ages we're giving children
31:45smartphones
31:47into which um
31:49you know these multi-billion dollar
31:51global corporations are beaming the most
31:54extraordinarily
31:56violent aggressive horrible sexual
31:58images right which they're going to be
32:00exposed to for a really young age i mean
32:01one of the things i write about
32:03in one chapter on bdsm is the
32:07the extent to which just
32:09the sexual script
32:11has become so much more aggressive
32:13right just things like
32:15one survey in the uk
32:17which found that half of
32:20um young women in the uk age 18 to 24
32:22had been choked by a partner during sex
32:24this was not considered to be a normal
32:26part of sex even 10 years ago 20 years
32:29ago this was like a weird niche thing
32:33that most people would never even
32:35would never even occur to them to do now
32:38but but now we have every porn platform
32:40in the world has
32:42choking images on the front page this is
32:44completely mainstream you can even
32:45expect to see it on instagram or
32:47facebook and all these platforms that
32:48are supposed to be appropriate for
32:50for adolescents
32:52no wonder you have some of these girls
32:54you know arriving in this kind of sexual
32:56culture and saying i i want out and one
32:59way of getting out
33:01is to not identify as a woman anymore or
33:04to do things like identify as asexual
33:07or demisexual demisexual makes me laugh
33:09a little bit because what demisexual um
33:11is defined as is basically when you you
33:13only want to have sex with someone who
33:15you're emotionally attached to and this
33:16is this is presented as being
33:19um
33:20a kind of
33:21weird and wonderful special identity
33:24right whatever and like no this is just
33:25normal female sexuality that you're
33:27describing and creating a new term i
33:30mean i kind of i sort of have some
33:31respect for girls in the sense of
33:34you know having having the confidence
33:36almost almost to assert this you know
33:38this is my identity
33:41like you know there's nothing wrong with
33:42it um is good you know better to
33:44identify as demisexual than to
33:47than to kind of go along with the
33:48mainstream against your instincts but
33:50equally you shouldn't have to be
33:53coming up with some sort of special
33:54identity that permits you to opt out of
33:56a culture that is really not geared
33:58towards in women's interests
34:00yeah
34:01um you've written about this before
34:04as all of the different
34:07barriers all the different maurice
34:10restrictions traditions around sexuality
34:12that as we've talked about
34:14are rooted in christianity even if they
34:17have become separated from christian
34:19theology as all of those are knocked
34:21down
34:21in the name of liberation in the name of
34:26i don't know self-discovery and
34:28self-fulfillment i really see a huge
34:30crossover between the like trendy
34:33narcissistic self-love culture and all
34:35the sexual revolution there seems to
34:37just be a lot in common there
34:39as all of those all of those
34:41restrictions are knocked down do you see
34:45the normalization of something like
34:48pedophilia
34:50on the horizon or do you think that's
34:52just a slippery slope argument that
34:55you know christian conservatives are
34:57putting out there to try to scare people
34:59about lgbtq people
35:03i think it's hard for those principles
35:05not to end up
35:07as a pedophilia apologism eventually and
35:10this has happened
35:12post-sexual revolution and has to some
35:13extent being memory holds you in say the
35:151970s
35:17a push among all sorts of very very
35:19prominent
35:20um
35:21postmodern theorists like foucault and
35:24signing
35:25yes yes yes signing petitions you know
35:28for the decriminalization of pedophilia
35:30writing very explicitly in defense of it
35:32and what they said it's important to
35:34remember this is that they didn't say
35:37that it was okay to violently assault
35:38children
35:40what they said was that the consent
35:42principle
35:44stood you know consent was important and
35:47that some children were capable of
35:49consenting to sex with adults and i
35:52think this is the this is the problem
35:54with the consent framework because
35:56actually
35:57it's over it is open to
35:59um
36:00to manipulation the fact that we've set
36:02the legal bar at
36:0516 in the uk you know other
36:08similar kind of thresholds across the
36:09world
36:10is to some extent arbitrary we know that
36:13you know a 15 year old on the night
36:15before her 16th birthday is not
36:18radically different from how she is the
36:19next day we have to draw a line in the
36:21sound legally and say this is the point
36:23at which you can consent to sex
36:25and we know historically that that line
36:26has been set at very different points
36:28you know sometimes really very young
36:30um
36:31the argument from
36:33from some of the sexual revolutionaries
36:35was just that we should nudge it a
36:36little lower and it would still
36:38completely in keeping with
36:40with that with their principles of
36:41protecting consent
36:43and it becomes you know there are all
36:45sorts of examples
36:47um like for instance um
36:51pornography
36:52with adults pretending to be children or
36:55making themselves look more like
36:56children trend i mean that's a trend
36:58even on tech talk i just saw something
37:01um that uh
37:02there's like this trend of like older
37:04girls wearing
37:06um like pigtails to get more tissues
37:09because they look yeah yeah they look
37:10younger there's also and this i don't
37:13want to take us you know off of what
37:14we're talking about but just so i don't
37:16forget something i've noticed with a lot
37:19of men who say that they identify as
37:21women
37:22is that at least the ones that i'm
37:24seeing you know online is that they
37:26don't dress up like women they often
37:28dress up as little
37:30girls
37:32another example would be um
37:35like virtual reality porn or cartoon
37:37porn or whatever that's designed to look
37:39like child porn but it doesn't actually
37:42use children in its production so it's
37:44not directly harming any children
37:47um
37:48or something like cuties you remember
37:49the netflix show
37:51um a couple of years ago which was
37:53supposedly you know the defense from the
37:56creators was that it was about actually
37:59critiquing the sexualization of children
38:01and you know the plot in the end
38:03um
38:04sees the protagonist rejecting the kind
38:06of hypersexualization
38:07but it also featured a lot of
38:09hypersexualization of real children who
38:10actually were really young and looked
38:12obviously very young
38:14and this is the sort of thing where
38:16within the consent framework
38:18what do you say you know it's if an
38:21adult wants to put braces and pigtails
38:23on and create porn and if an ad another
38:25adult wants to
38:26wants to consume it or pay for it
38:29you can't really challenge that within
38:31the consent framework at all
38:33and yet the vast majority of us
38:36feel an instinctive revulsion and know
38:38that there's something off
38:40about that
38:41and it's very hard to to explain that
38:44feeling if all that you've got to rely
38:46on is the consent framework
38:48whereas if you
38:50if you're interested in virtue you know
38:52you if you say that actually there are
38:54certain
38:55um
38:56there are certain virtues on which our
38:57sexual ethics should be based and one of
39:00those includes
39:01um
39:03the protection of the vulnerable and the
39:04recognition that actually
39:06any kind of sexual attraction to
39:08children
39:10is wrong and should be repressed and if
39:11and if anyone sort of discovered it and
39:13discovers it in themselves
39:16it is
39:16they are they are obliged to repress
39:19those instincts because they are not
39:21they're not virtuous you know
39:23these are the kind of arguments that i
39:25think
39:25most people do instinctively
39:28feel drawn towards but which the new
39:30kind of ethical framework just cannot
39:33possibly accommodate which is why i
39:35think we end up inevitably with
39:37pedophilia or apologism and have done
39:40since the 1960s at various points and i
39:42fear we are slipping back towards that
39:44again
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41:03[Music]
41:07i agree with you that it is the natural
41:10consequence of again kind of a backlash
41:13to
41:14christianity of course from my vantage
41:16point i'm like all of this is a
41:18rejection of
41:20what was kind of the
41:23dominant philosophy which was christian
41:25theology there's a fascinating book
41:27about the invention
41:29of children and how christianity really
41:32invented children as a protected
41:34category which again as we've already
41:36kind of mentioned in the pagan world in
41:38which christianity
41:40was birthed there was no idea of
41:43children being a protected class they
41:45not only could be used for all kinds of
41:48labor but also for sexual exploitation
41:51really the
41:52the person who stood in the center of
41:54society was the adult free male everyone
41:58else kind of was free for subjugation
42:00then christianity
42:02universalized this old testament idea
42:04that hang on all people have souls all
42:07people are made in the image of god
42:09there is consequence for rape there's a
42:11consequence for murder there's a
42:13consequence
42:14for abuse and then also brought in the
42:17gospel which said okay everyone is dead
42:19and sin apart from christ everyone is
42:21alive in christ by grace through faith
42:24in him that is a radical equality of
42:27worth that the gospel of jesus christ
42:30brought into
42:32the pagan world and that is what
42:34revolutionized the west still today in
42:37the non-christian world there is nothing
42:39perverse
42:40uh they see nothing perverse
42:43in marrying a child still today probably
42:46in a large portion of the world in the
42:48non-christian world it has never been
42:50seen as any kind of paraphilia any kind
42:53of predation it is because of
42:56christianity and the spread of christian
42:59virtues that we have a rightful
43:01revulsion to pedophilia that's not a
43:04universal value today so to me this is
43:07just another consequence
43:10inevitable consequence of rejecting
43:14christian theology i don't think we even
43:16realize none of us christian or not
43:18realize what is on the other side
43:22of a fully
43:24post-christian world i mean i think
43:25history tells us that i don't think
43:28though we in the last who take for
43:29granted all of those traditions
43:32and all of those
43:34moral principles i don't think that we
43:36can even begin to recognize what that's
43:38going to look like
43:42yeah i wrote um an article for a compact
43:45magazine a few weeks ago about um do you
43:47know andrew tate if you come across him
43:49i i just recently discovered who he was
43:51like in the past
43:56um but he is apparently a phenomenon
43:58anyone who's not familiar he's a he's a
44:00british american kickboxer
44:02um who uh has has become a bit of a tick
44:04tock star and he is
44:06um i think he is a really good reminder
44:09of the fact that um
44:13just because he is opposed to christian
44:15sexual morality does not mean by any
44:18means that he is
44:21feminist you know that that dichotomy is
44:23completely false because what tate
44:28is invested in in his own personal
44:30morality is basically
44:33consumption display um you know being
44:36he's
44:37hugely status driven he loves his like
44:40fancy watches cars whatever this is what
44:42he lives for and he sees women as being
44:44consumables in exactly the same way
44:46and he has said that he wants to have
44:49he wants to have multiple partners more
44:51you know children but by as many women
44:52as he possibly can he's completely
44:54unconcerned with the idea of um
44:57monogamous marriage and of course
44:59he he can now do that i mean we don't
45:01actually legally permit polygamy but in
45:04practice
45:05um you can live in a poli in a
45:07polygamous way with absolutely no
45:09restriction or in a legal sense and and
45:11very little social censure either so he
45:14is
45:15he's able to basically live the life of
45:17a kind of
45:18you know high-class roman male who and
45:21in in the roman world absolutely no one
45:23would have judged him for it at all you
45:24know harvey weinstein is completely
45:26unremarkable
45:28in a world that doesn't recognize the
45:30the violation of
45:32um
45:33the bodies of women and children
45:35particularly low class women and
45:36children matters
45:38yeah but i think the point is that
45:39they're not
45:42it is possible to critique them
45:44within a within a sexual reality which
45:46says that actually the sexual
45:47exploitation of
45:48of the weak is wrong and that high
45:50status men should not automatically
45:52assume that they have sexual access to
45:54their social inferiors right that is a
45:56radical thing to say and it remains a
45:57radical thing to say and i think that
45:59actually
46:00you know in many ways
46:02um
46:04feminists and christians are on the same
46:05page about that even if we even if we
46:08don't always recognize that fact well
46:09there's certainly a lot of things that
46:11i've realized since the revolution has
46:13come for the dichotomy of male and
46:15female and has decided to try to kind of
46:17like obliterate that which you talk
46:19about in your book but i realized you
46:21know there's a lot that
46:24i end up linking you know i link arms
46:27with a lot of feminists on what i would
46:30say because i understand certainly from
46:32a secular perspective while you look at
46:34history and you look at the plight of
46:35women and you say feminism is necessary
46:37and has accomplished good things
46:39again from my vantage point kind of like
46:41what i would say is just as christianity
46:45revolutionized the idea and the
46:46perspective of children
46:48so it also
46:50uh revolutionized the perspective on
46:53women not just through the gospel and
46:55that kind of radical equality that it
46:57brings as like sinners and saints but
46:59also like if you look at a passage like
47:01ephesians 5 which a lot of people who
47:03identify as christian feminists today
47:04hate because it says wives submit to
47:06your husbands as to the lord and of
47:08course we're like oh my goodness
47:09submission but i think the radical part
47:12of that or what would have been
47:13considered a radical part of that which
47:15was not normal for the culture at the
47:17time is when paul says husbands love
47:20your wives as christ loved the church
47:23and basically he goes on to say just as
47:25christ sacrificed himself for you so
47:27sacrifice yourself
47:28for your wife talks about monogamy the
47:31importance of being a husband of just
47:33one wife of not provoking your children
47:35to anger but caring for them that all
47:38not the submission to your husband part
47:40that probably wouldn't have been radical
47:41at the time the radical part was
47:43husbands you're not free to do whatever
47:45you want to do you're not free to sow
47:47your wild oats you are to be monogamous
47:49you are to care and compassion for your
47:51wife
47:52and for your children
47:54again and i think like that perspective
47:57on women as people to be cared for
47:59people whose interests actually matter
48:01who have a soul who aren't just bodies
48:04who aren't just bearing children
48:06although that of course is so important
48:08like again
48:10a christian idea and ideal that over
48:13time really changed how society saw
48:15women i see feminism in my
48:18in my opinion as getting more wrong than
48:21right and actually helping create
48:23someone like andrew tate because
48:27feminism told women that hey
48:30like just get on birth control and do
48:32whatever you want with your body
48:34and that is liberation and that is good
48:37and that is virtuous and that is great
48:38all you need is sexual satisfaction just
48:40like a man can get i mean people like
48:42entertain are loving that side of
48:44feminism so like to me that kind of
48:46created the issue
48:49i think that the error that liberal
48:50feminism made bearing in mind there have
48:52always been different strains right but
48:54liberal feminism is by far i'd say the
48:56most dominant now it's kind of the the
48:58girl boss feminism the whatever you know
49:00this is what we see in in cosmo and
49:03whatever
49:05the error that liberal feminism makes is
49:07that it assumes that freedom is the most
49:09important goal
49:11but it is the preeminent virtue and that
49:13all other virtues need to fall by the
49:14wayside and so of course you know you
49:16say well
49:18men have always had the freedom to
49:19behave like libertines why shouldn't
49:21women have that freedom to
49:23why shouldn't women have the freedom to
49:25participate in public life in the same
49:26way that means you know all of this and
49:28and
49:29and it's it's true up to a point
49:31but the problem is that the kind of
49:33radical freedom
49:35project
49:36um
49:37doesn't work
49:40when we come up against the the brick
49:42wall of biological difference
49:45and the fact that there is a there is
49:46sexual asymmetry that is never going to
49:49go away the fact that women are the ones
49:51who get pregnant women's we are much
49:53smaller and weaker more physically
49:54vulnerable than men are we have all
49:56these psychological differences like the
49:58fact that male and female sexuality
50:00is
50:01on average quite distinct
50:03um
50:04that's not going anywhere and i think
50:06that what we've seen
50:08um and that you know the negative
50:10consequences of the sexual revolution
50:11that have played out now you know we've
50:13done the experiment what happens if you
50:15if you tear it all down and try and
50:16start from from scratch again well we've
50:19seen it um what happens is that um
50:24you throw freedom at a society i think
50:27in denial about the existence of sexual
50:29asymmetry that is
50:31tries very hard i mean even in the most
50:33recent iteration
50:35tries to deny the existence of men and
50:37women
50:38as such
50:40i think that we cannot possibly cope
50:43with this new kind of free-for-all
50:46given
50:47given the existence of sexual asymmetry
50:49and given that
50:50um i mean this is the sort of thing that
50:52anyone with you know anyone on the left
50:55who has a has any kind of critique of
50:57capitalism
50:58will recognize this when it comes to
50:59free markets and we'll say well if you
51:01just you know throw freedom right like
51:04remove all say
51:05um
51:06labor restrictions or you know any
51:08anything
51:09any kind of um
51:11effort on imposing structure and control
51:14on a system and just kind of have at it
51:16anyone on the left will say well no
51:18because
51:20there's not an even playing field right
51:21there are there are there are the rich
51:23bosses there are they're poor workers if
51:25you say
51:26as you know remove the obligation to
51:29honor the sabbath to give one example of
51:32course you're going to end up with poor
51:33workers then having to work
51:35seven days a week and being
51:37you know miserably exploited
51:39and of course the bosses are going to
51:41profit from that you know and i feel
51:42like we've done the same thing
51:44when it comes to the sexual marketplace
51:45that we've basically imposed a kind of
51:47free market ideology and said everyone
51:49should be free without recognizing the
51:51fact that there are
51:53inherent inequalities which mean that
51:56different people will experience that
51:57freedom differently the phrase i use in
51:58the book is um
52:00freedom for the pike is death for the
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53:14it just doesn't seem like it has
53:17delivered on its promises not i mean
53:19sure maybe liberation if liberation is
53:21you can just do whatever you want if
53:23liberation and libertinism are the same
53:25thing which i mean you could argue for
53:27against that but it doesn't seem like
53:29it's led to
53:31satisfaction i mean aren't we more
53:33especially young girls it seems more
53:35depressed than ever more anxious than
53:37ever even more suicidal than ever and
53:39there are a lot of different factors i
53:41think
53:42um that play into that i mean in an age
53:45when we are constantly told i mean young
53:47women especially are berated on social
53:49media with just love yourself just love
53:51yourself just love yourself just
53:52discover yourself you are your own truth
53:54you're enough for yourself you would
53:56think that in an age where that kind of
53:58message is primary for women that we
54:00would be happier if that were the
54:02solution if the solution was just do
54:04what makes you happy and do what feels
54:07good don't care about you know standards
54:09or rules or restrictions just be
54:11authentically you 24 7 no matter what
54:14that means no matter how much that might
54:16hurt you and hurt other people if that
54:18were the way to go it seems like we
54:20would be a lot happier right now but
54:22actually it seems like we're a lot more
54:24depressed than we've ever been so at
54:26what point do people realize okay
54:29we need to like it needs to swing back
54:31in the other direction we need some kind
54:34of like exit strategy here
54:36this ain't working we need to turn
54:38around a little bit like do you do you
54:40see that happening or do you think like
54:43we're just headed towards rock bottom
54:46i think it is starting to happen i mean
54:49i think it's a bit of a complicated
54:50picture because you've got um
54:53among gen z for instance you've got a
54:55combination of
54:57some members of gen z who are really
54:59into the sex positive stuff
55:01and then you've also got some who are
55:02who are i think reacting against it and
55:04there is a bit of a sexual cancer
55:05revolution brewing um it's not always
55:08happening in the way that you might want
55:09or what you expect so for instance there
55:12are a lot of young men who are reacting
55:13against porn and who are swearing off
55:15using porn at all
55:17they generally are not doing so out of
55:20any kind of ethical motivation at all
55:23you know in terms of concerned about the
55:25women who are involved in its production
55:27or whatever
55:28they're normally doing it because if
55:31they recognize the fact that porn is
55:32really destructive for the consumer and
55:34it tends to have really negative impact
55:37on your own
55:38your mind your sexuality i think you
55:40know problems like erectile dysfunction
55:42are very very common um
55:44for men who are using porn frequently so
55:46normally it's coming out of a more sort
55:48of
55:49self-interested instinct yeah
55:51it's it's all connected though and yeah
55:54it's all connected when something is
55:55like bad for society it tends to be bad
55:58for the individual and vice versa um and
56:01so to me it just is another
56:04like it's another piece of evidence as
56:06you kind of have argued even from a
56:07secular perspective that the like mind
56:09and the heart and the soul and the body
56:10are connected it causes sexual
56:12dysfunction not just because it's bad
56:14for you physically but also because it's
56:16bad for your mind it's bad for women
56:18it's bad for society and families and
56:20children in general
56:21um so yeah i mean it might be
56:23self-interested but as you said the
56:25consequences are
56:27good of that kind of self-control
56:30yeah yeah and young women many of them
56:33are coming to the same kind of
56:34conclusions as well you go on tick tock
56:35you know
56:36twitter wherever it's really easy to
56:39come across young women who are saying
56:40exactly these things that the sexual
56:41revolution was a was a con basically
56:45um
56:46i mean some of them are reacting as we
56:47discussed earlier by doing things like
56:49identifying as
56:51as trans or as non-binary or demisexuals
56:54or whatever it might be so they're
56:55trying to kind of react against it
56:57within the the liberal framework yeah um
57:00others are um
57:02just
57:03for swearing sexual relationships at all
57:06um like fem cells is the counterpart to
57:08in cells is it growing on online
57:10phenomenon women who are basically
57:12swearing to celibacy because they don't
57:13want to participate in this culture
57:15um
57:17but then i mean the point that i make in
57:19the book is that actually there is also
57:21a lot to be learned from my last chapter
57:23is called listen to your mother where i
57:25argue that actually
57:28some of the old sexual
57:30norms
57:31were there for a reason
57:34and actually there is a lot to be
57:36that we can learn from them in a
57:38critical way um things like marriage you
57:41know things like recognizing that
57:42actually
57:43um
57:45men and women have got to get along
57:47right if we're going to have a future
57:49and
57:50you know we very often do men and women
57:52have have
57:53have loving you know
57:56most people their most important loving
57:58relationship in their lives is a member
57:59of the opposite sex you know most
58:00straight people
58:02um we are perfectly capable of having
58:04these loving relationships the problem
58:06is that we don't have the cultural
58:07structure in place that encourages their
58:10creation and their and their
58:12perseverance
58:13but we we could you know these things do
58:15the this option does remain available
58:18still we can still choose to be
58:20counter-cultural
58:22and to it and to adopt some of the old
58:24ideas which actually had a lot of wisdom
58:26to them so that's that's the advice i
58:28end up giving readers
58:29by the end of the book wow well this is
58:32fascinating and i've loved following you
58:34and i just appreciate your perspective
58:36even though
58:37it we're coming from different places
58:38that's kind of what i appreciate about
58:40it is because you're not coming from
58:42necessarily my same theological
58:46point which is what makes it so
58:48interesting um so thank you so much for
58:50writing this book for taking the time to
58:52come on i hope that everyone goes out
58:54and buys it
58:55where can people buy it how can they
58:57support you follow you
59:00so it was literally published in the us
59:02yesterday
59:05i mean i don't think i even realized
59:06that okay awesome um it's been out in
59:08the uk for a few months and it's had a
59:10it's it's made quite a big splash in
59:12good okay
59:13um
59:14but yeah so it's now available in the us
59:16in
59:17in all good bookshops i hope and assume
59:19yes and otherwise um i'm on twitter um
59:22at louise underscore m and school
59:24perry
59:25awesome
59:27thank you so much louise i really
59:29appreciate you taking the time to come
59:31on i know people are going to love this
59:32and again just encourage people to go
59:34out and get your book so thank you so
59:36much
59:36thank you so much take care
59:55you

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