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Science of Attraction, Compatibility & Romance | Dr. Paul Eastwick — Transcript

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0:00When you look at who gets the right
0:02swipes and who receives messages on the
0:05apps, it's the most popular people. I
0:08mean, folks have claimed that it's one
0:10of the most unequal markets in the
0:12world, but regular acquaintance is not
0:16nearly so dramatic. I don't think the
0:19influence of attractiveness ever goes
0:21away, right? There's always going to be
0:23an unlevel playing field to some extent,
0:26but the more that people spend time
0:28together getting to know each other, it
0:31reduces some of those market forces that
0:34give the desirable people all the
0:36advantages.
0:38Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast,
0:40where we discuss science and
0:42science-based [music] tools for everyday
0:43life.
0:47I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor
0:49of neurobiology and opthalmology at
0:51Stanford School of Medicine. My guest
0:53today is Dr. Paul Eastwick, a professor
0:55of psychology at the University of
0:57California, Davis. Today we discuss the
0:59science of attraction, mate selection,
1:01and relationships. And I promise you
1:03what you are going to hear will surprise
1:05you. Paul's research has discovered that
1:07much of what you've heard about how
1:08people select partners, date, form
1:11relationships, even break up or
1:13repartner is simply wrong. At least when
1:15you look at the actual data. For
1:17example, his data show that both men and
1:20women when given a choice select
1:22partners that are younger than them.
1:24Yes, you heard that right. It's not just
1:26men. Men and women equally select
1:28partners that are younger than them
1:29given the choice. His data also
1:31challenged the idea that financial
1:33status is more important to women when
1:35looking for male partners. Turns out
1:37that when men are looking for female
1:38partners, on average, financial status
1:41is as important as it is when women are
1:43looking for men. And somewhat less
1:45surprising, his work shows that indeed
1:47dating apps select for qualities that
1:49are not the ones that research shows
1:51builds lasting partnerships. But he also
1:53offers solutions to those that are using
1:55dating apps to try and find a partner.
1:57Today's discussion is not just about
1:59finding a partner. It's also about what
2:01solidifies and maintains healthy
2:03relationships over time. Again, what the
2:05data say about that. Things like
2:07physical intimacy being among the very
2:09strongest predictors of relationship
2:11stability. As well as both partners
2:13feeling that no matter who else might be
2:15attractive to them, that their partner
2:16has unique qualities that no one else
2:18can match. So whether you are in a
2:20relationship or not, looking for a
2:22relationship or not, today's discussion
2:24gets into social bonding of all sorts
2:27and repeatedly throughout today's
2:28episode both as it relates to single
2:31people looking for a partner, people who
2:32are already partnered, we talk about the
2:34importance of activities that are done
2:36with other people, could be other
2:37couples or other single people, etc. And
2:40that this is critical for those wanting
2:42to meet a partner and it turns out to be
2:44critical for maintaining a healthy
2:46long-term relationship. We'll talk about
2:48what the data say about that. Super
2:50interesting. So today is not just about
2:52the real data of how people rate
2:54attractiveness, find partners, and the
2:56glue that keeps people happily together.
2:58It's about the real life data and the
3:00actions that anyone can take that help
3:02you build and sustain excellent romantic
3:04and other types of relationships. Before
3:06we begin, I'd like to emphasize that
3:08this podcast is separate from my
3:09teaching and research roles at Stanford.
3:11It is however part of my desire and
3:13effort to bring zero cost to consumer
3:15information about science and science
3:16related tools to the general public. In
3:19keeping with that theme, today's episode
3:20does include sponsors. And now for my
3:23discussion with Dr. Paul Eastwick. Dr.
3:25Paul Eastwick, welcome.
3:27>> Thank you so much for having me. A lot
3:29of theories out there, a lot of
3:30speculation about attraction, dating,
3:34romance, and relationships, which are
3:36separable things. Of course, we'll talk
3:38about all of them. But one of the
3:40semi-dominant themes in the public
3:43narrative and indeed on many podcasts is
3:47is kind of anchoring to evolutionary
3:49theory which to put it really coarsely
3:53sort of a market-based theory. You know
3:55people even say I married up or uh you
3:57know and people but quantitative
3:59measures on people they're a six they're
4:01a seven they're a 10 in this but a four
4:04in that. You know, as a neuroscientist,
4:06I hear that and I immediately go to, and
4:09again, this is just purely theoretical.
4:12>> Oh, this sounds very limbic. This is
4:14very much of like the hypothalamus. This
4:16is very much like the kind of thing that
4:17you might expect under conditions of
4:19like um low food availability,
4:22>> low mate availability, a lot of weapons
4:24and a few and very few laws, you know,
4:26to to regulate violence or something.
4:28Meaning men will will harm each other in
4:31order to get access to mates. women will
4:33um be deceptive. This is the whole idea.
4:37And you step back and you go, well,
4:38that's not the world we live in now. We
4:40have a forebrain. We can make choices.
4:42We can be strategic in the direction of
4:44benevolence. We can think about
4:45kindness. And so to me, it seems we need
4:49a revision or at least a better
4:51understanding of what's actually true in
4:532026 and forward. So, if you would, what
4:56are your thoughts about what is not true
4:59based on the data
5:01>> and perhaps what is true about this
5:03quote unquote evolutionary model of
5:05dating relationships and so on. The
5:07marketplace ideas, I think they
5:10definitely have their place and it deres
5:14from a a sensible evolutionary
5:16perspective like what you're describing.
5:19I think it describes well what happens
5:22in initial attraction settings when
5:26people are really meeting for the first
5:28time. There's this class demo that I do
5:32in my undergraduate classes. A lot of
5:34people use this demo and what you do is
5:38you have a bunch of your students put a
5:40number on their foreheads and they sort
5:42of hold it up so that they can't see it
5:45but other people can. and you tell the
5:49students your goal is to pair up with
5:52the highest value person that you can
5:55and you don't know what your number is,
5:57but I'm going to count to five and then
5:59I want you all to stroll around the room
6:00and try to make mating offers to folks.
6:04And what you see is that the people who
6:06have been randomly assigned a low
6:07number, they start to panic because what
6:10happens is that nobody will talk to
6:13them.
6:13>> And this is random. uh you know
6:15otherwise it would be very unethical and
6:17also who would decide but
6:18>> but people don't like it. I mean if you
6:20get a low number
6:21>> it's not an enjoyable experience
6:24>> and I think there is a parallel to what
6:27people are experiencing as they're
6:29growing up or maybe even if they're a
6:31little older and they're going to a
6:33party and they haven't met anybody
6:34there. So this is an analogy
6:39for how people internalize and you know
6:43act upon something that we call mate
6:45value and it's it's like what you
6:47describe. It's supposedly linked to
6:49traits that reflect your core
6:52desiraability like maybe your physical
6:55attractiveness but it could be other
6:57related traits too. It could be things
6:59like the size of your bank account or
7:01your status.
7:02What we tend to see is that when people
7:05are meeting for the first time, this is
7:08um a reasonable faximile of how people
7:12behave.
7:13But interesting things tend to happen
7:17when people get to know each other over
7:19a little bit more time. What then tends
7:22to happen is that that agreement that is
7:26required for that study to work. That
7:28study only works because you can read
7:30the numbers on people's foreheads. But
7:33if I were to blur that number, we
7:35wouldn't see as much pairing up. It
7:37wouldn't be as sad and as difficult for
7:40the people with low numbers. And in real
7:42life, that's kind of what tends to
7:44happen. We stop agreeing about who the
7:47eights are and who the fives are. And
7:50people might on average say that you're
7:51a six, but if I've gotten to know you
7:53over time, it means there's a chance I
7:56think you're a nine. There's also a
7:58chance I think you're a three. And so
8:00that increase in idiosyncrasy and
8:04variability, I think, is a really
8:07fortunate thing. And it's the thing
8:09that's going to allow a lot of partners
8:12to find each other uh even if they're
8:14not consensually the most desirable
8:16people. Consensually meaning in the eyes
8:19of others.
8:20>> Right. Right. Right. Right. So even if
8:23on average people think uh you're kind
8:25of middling with enough time people are
8:29more likely to find okay but okay you
8:31all think I'm a five but she thinks I'm
8:33a 10. And then what you're kind of
8:35crossing your fingers for are these
8:36moments where and I think she's a 10
8:38too. And it's this uh level of sort of
8:42disagreement or the emergence of what we
8:45might comp call compatibility that I
8:47think is it's been missing from the
8:50evolutionary narratives, but I think it
8:52plays a core part in explaining how
8:55couples get together as well. Wow. Um so
8:58many things come to mind. Uh the first
9:00thing that comes to mind is the
9:02question, you know, who and what are
9:04others looking at? Yeah, it seems like
9:06one of the more I want to use the word
9:08immature, but let's say less evolved,
9:10not in the evolutionary biology context,
9:12but kind of like life maturation sense,
9:14like less evolved aspects of self is
9:16when
9:17>> we are not thinking about what we
9:19actually like and don't like,
9:21>> but we're paying a lot of attention to
9:22what other people like and dislike as a
9:25barometer of what we should do or not
9:27do. Now, of course, that can be very
9:29informative in healthy ways, but when it
9:32really comes down to it, it's a
9:34potentially very toxic aspect of human
9:37nature, right? So, what I what I hear
9:39you saying is that at some point there's
9:41this kind of um dating, romance, and
9:44relational maturity that people come to
9:47where they're really able to sense what
9:49they actually like and they're able to
9:52put the blinders up to how other people
9:54are necessarily behaving. like are does
9:57everyone like this person? Do they not
9:58like this person? And the the words that
10:00come to mind, two words are junior high,
10:03>> like the junior high school dance for a
10:05number of reasons is kind of the first
10:06time, you know, most kids are starting
10:08to hit puberty or somewhere in puberty
10:10at that phase. And so there's a lot of
10:11recognition of others and
10:13>> kind of like who is cool, who's not
10:15cool, who's getting attention, who's not
10:17getting attention seems to surface first
10:20in junior high.
10:21>> Yeah.
10:21>> And admittedly, we're all pretty
10:22immature in junior high. Yeah. Exactly.
10:24>> [laughter]
10:24>> So, has this been looked at in in a
10:27structured way? For instance, are there
10:30adults who are um good
10:33>> at ignoring what you you know what the
10:36consensus is? And are are they able to
10:38find mates and and set up relationships
10:41more readily than people who are paying
10:42a lot of attention to what other people
10:44like and don't like? Yes, I'm I am sure
10:47that there's considerable individual
10:50variability in how people react to
10:54what's going on around them. Sometimes
10:56you see this phenomenon called mate
10:58choice copying. But what that
11:00essentially means is that you know you
11:03kind of look to see who's attracted to
11:05somebody in my uh you know is everybody
11:08attracted to this person? Well, there
11:10must be some signal there. I'll sort of
11:12follow that.
11:14I totally agree. It it's a very junior
11:17high way of thinking about this whole
11:19process. But I think a lot of what is
11:23happening is that if people are spending
11:26time together and I I often go back to
11:28thinking about what is it like when
11:31we're hanging out in mixed gender groups
11:33if you're heterosexual.
11:35So we're spending time together and
11:38maybe for whatever reason I happen to
11:41spend more time with this person. we
11:42find something interesting to chat
11:44about. I see her reacting in situations
11:47that other people don't get to see. And
11:50so the particular time that I spend with
11:53her ends up being the material that I
11:57use that causes my opinion to diverge
12:00from everybody else's. So everybody else
12:01might be like, "She's not all that
12:02great." And I think, "But you weren't
12:05there when we were hanging out talking
12:08about, you know, some family challenges
12:10that I had. I'm trying to put myself
12:12back in like what were the things we
12:14would have been frustrated about in high
12:15school. But you know talking about like
12:17problems at school or problems with
12:18other friends like she was supportive
12:21and listened to me and then I was
12:22supportive and I listened to her and
12:25that reciprocity through a unique
12:28experience with another person. A lot of
12:31times this is where initial attraction
12:33comes from. It sounds a little squishy.
12:36It doesn't sound like the sexy form of
12:39attraction that we often think about,
12:41but what we see in our work is a lot of
12:44times this is how it happens. It it
12:46takes a little while, but attraction can
12:49form when two people spend that time
12:52together sort of pulling unique things
12:54out of each other. I'd like to take a
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15:22>> It's interesting. I'm thinking about um
15:25movies.
15:26>> Yeah.
15:26>> And um admittedly, I haven't seen that
15:29many romantic comedies, but there's some
15:30very there's some pretty awesome I've
15:32seen a few of them. Uh but there's some
15:34awesome movies about this issue.
15:37>> Yeah.
15:37>> And I'll offer some examples that will
15:39date myself, but
15:42>> that seem to fall into at least three
15:43bins.
15:44>> One is
15:47you're awesome. I'm awesome. Let's get
15:50together. All right. Nowadays, I think
15:52regardless of music taste, I think the
15:54kind of uh like royally celebrated
15:57couple is not a royal couple.
15:59Incidentally, I would say it's like the
16:01Taylor Swift
16:02>> Kelsey couple. People like people are
16:04like they're both winners. They're both
16:06super attractive. They're both super
16:08successful. And you know whether you
16:10like the Chiefs or you don't, whether or
16:11not you like her music or you don't,
16:13you're like, you're like they're like
16:15badass winners pairing up
16:18>> and it's very hard to say anything
16:19except like, wow, they totally quote
16:21unquote belong together, right? There's
16:23a sort of So there's that pairing and
16:24you can find that in movies and uh all
16:26the like ' 80s like um uh John Hughes
16:29movies centered around this like um and
16:31then broke that model. We'll go back to
16:33that. The other one would be Yeah. the
16:35breaking of that model. the like the
16:37it's this is very 80s but the kind of
16:39like the athlete you know pairs up with
16:42the nerd right okay now we nowadays we
16:45have athlete nerds and so it doesn't
16:47work quite as well
16:48>> and then the third model is the like
16:50well you're screwed up and I'm screwed
16:51up but we're really good people
16:54>> like you get true romance
16:55>> the movie True Romance which is an
16:57amazing movie right you know she was a
17:00>> you know not by her own choice
17:01apparently like she she's like I've been
17:03a prostitute for three call girl for
17:04three days and he's
17:06Well, I you know, someone paid for you
17:08to be on this date with me. They fall in
17:09love. They leave their
17:10>> professions, right? And they go and they
17:12go on this sort of semi-rime spree um
17:16that really uh demonstrates their
17:18immense love and devotion to one
17:19another. And the whole notion is like
17:21you're so cool. They both think the
17:23other person is super cool, don't care
17:24about their past, and kind of enjoy the
17:26fact that they're both kind of from
17:29>> uh hard scrabble backgrounds. So then
17:31there's that. And what's so different
17:33about that kind of model compared to
17:36like today where I hear because I so I
17:39don't have a lot to offer about personal
17:40experience on apps many years ago but
17:42it's been a while is this notion that
17:44like everyone you hear this everyone's
17:46competing for the same small number of
17:48people.
17:48>> So it seems like even those those three
17:51cliche models that are presented in a
17:53number of movies they exist. It's like
17:57since when did is everyone thinking that
17:59they're supposed to pair up with the
18:01same small number of people? This is
18:04like ridiculous. That's like saying
18:05everyone's supposed to like the same
18:07>> top three songs even though you might
18:09not even like that genre of music.
18:11That's that's um insanity.
18:13>> Yeah, the apps absolutely pull for this.
18:17So when you look at who gets the right
18:21swipes and who receives messages on the
18:24apps, it's the most popular people. I
18:27mean, folks have claimed that it's one
18:28of the most unequal markets in the
18:31world. I mean, it's basically a
18:32kleptocracy. The extent to which Yeah,
18:35kleptocracy, right? The extent to which
18:36it's skewed, right? That there's like,
18:38you know, the rich, quote unquote, who
18:41have all the, you know, who who get all
18:43the all the the right swipes at the top.
18:46But regular acquaintance is not nearly
18:50so dramatic. So, you know, one example
18:54that I like to use is that if our job
18:57was just to evaluate whether somebody
19:00standing in front of us was hot or not,
19:02and it was somebody that we like
19:03interacted with briefly
19:06and we're making just simple binary
19:09judgments, you and I are going to agree
19:12about like 2/3 of the time. So that's
19:15that's better than 50/50, but it's far
19:18from 100%. I I think actually that would
19:20surprise a lot of people. There's a
19:21reasonable amount of disagreement there.
19:24That's already starting to set the stage
19:27for us not necessarily pursuing the most
19:31appealing person because if there's
19:33disagreement, that means there's a
19:35chance that, well, you're going to go
19:36for this person, I'm going to go for
19:37that person, and it it levels out the
19:41playing field somewhat. I don't think
19:44the influence of attractiveness ever
19:46goes away, right? There's always going
19:48to be an unlevel playing field to some
19:50extent, but the more that people spend
19:53time together getting to know each
19:55other, it reduces some of those, you
19:58know, uh th those market forces that
20:00give the desirable people all the
20:02advantages.
20:04>> Yeah. The reason junior high school
20:06seemed so dreadful in my memory. I mean,
20:09I had a good time in junior high school,
20:10but it it was largely, at least for me,
20:12the fact that people in my peer group,
20:16cuz it was a pretty broad age range,
20:17were were still um among the guys were
20:20hitting puberty at different rates.
20:21>> Yeah.
20:22>> So, like a game of soccer that at one
20:25time was pretty even with respect to who
20:28could play well, like suddenly you're
20:29playing against what felt like a grown
20:31man. There's actually a kid in our town
20:33who I don't want to give up his name who
20:35I think he went on to I don't ever think
20:37he became a professional soccer player,
20:38but he was just
20:39>> he was like fully developed by the
20:41eighth grade. He was like facial hair
20:43and he was fast and he had like legs
20:45like tree trunks and he could move and I
20:46mean it was just
20:47>> completely dangerous to have him out on
20:49the field with the rest of us, right?
20:51And he was
20:52>> respected, adored, admired like and it
20:54was very context dependent. This was the
20:56other thing I was going to say. I think
20:57you and I are both scientists. So,
20:59coming up, you spent a lot of time in
21:01labs.
21:01>> Yeah.
21:02>> I never forget there was a romance in a
21:04neighboring lab um that none of us
21:07understood. Like none of us understood.
21:09>> That's funny.
21:09>> And I remember asking my friend who was
21:11in this pairing and he said the
21:15attraction for him, although she was
21:16also attractive, but the the the hook
21:20was her prowess at aloquotting. So
21:23there's a thing you do with antibodies
21:24and labs where they come in and you have
21:26to put them into the little things so
21:27that you know you freeze out a little
21:28bit and apparent
21:29>> really hard.
21:30>> Yeah. You get good at it. But apparently
21:32like he walked in one day and she had a
21:34bunch of these little tubes stuffed
21:35between her fingers and she was just
21:36aloquotting really quickly while talking
21:39and from that moment he was just like
21:40smitten.
21:41>> That's beautiful.
21:42>> And I'll say they both never heard an
21:44example this good. I was like her
21:46aloquatting process like it or prowess
21:49and I thought to myself like is this
21:50like tapping into something? They they
21:52actually have children. He's his
21:53professor. They have children together.
21:55They seem very happy. I think anyone
21:56would say they're both attractive
21:58people. But their pairing seemed like
22:01>> not predictable by any other external
22:03metrics. And the fact that something so
22:06specific was the hook.
22:08>> Yeah.
22:09>> And that opened up into what turned out
22:10to be a long-standing marriage with kids
22:13is kind of wild. It is.
22:15>> But is this uncommon? Because what you
22:16described before is kind of like this,
22:18like there's something unique that makes
22:19it feel like there's a special
22:21attraction that indicates something that
22:23opens up to a special discussion and
22:24then there's this
22:25>> kind of um intimacy, right, that they
22:28share
22:29>> around aloquading that was spawned by
22:31aloquading. I don't recommend folks run
22:33out and learn how to aloquat in order to
22:35like this is not a strategy. Um
22:37[laughter] but that's the thing.
22:38>> Thematically it might be, but um so what
22:41are your thoughts on something like
22:42that? Okay, this is an incredible
22:44example and I think if if we're talking
22:47about couples, I think most people would
22:49find this idea intuitive that if you
22:52know I ask somebody what is what is it
22:55that you love about your wife or what is
22:56it that you love about your husband? You
22:58know, you're going to get a bunch of if
23:00you get them talking for long enough,
23:02you'll get some idiosyncratic details.
23:04You'll get some stories. I mean, maybe
23:06if they're really forthcoming, they'll
23:08give you the in jokes and they'll
23:10explain the moments that made them feel
23:13something special for this person.
23:16I think what I'm suggesting is that
23:20those moments, the the the creation of a
23:23narrative with another person, it goes
23:25back earlier than we think. And that a
23:28lot of times what we're doing when we're
23:30trying to figure out if we're into
23:31somebody, yes, we look at how they look
23:35visually and we we take in all that
23:37information and it matters a lot. But
23:39we're also talking with them, forming
23:43little stories. If you have a little bit
23:46of good banter, that means when I see
23:47you at the party next week, I'm going to
23:50want to sit next to you and see if we
23:51can recreate that moment. And that's
23:54often where attraction is coming from. I
23:56think that's why the apps are so hard
23:59because it turns it into an interview
24:01where you're trying to impress other
24:02people with your traits. And again,
24:05traits are important, but it's like it
24:07it's not the life of the thing. The life
24:09of the thing is the little stories and
24:11moments that two people are sharing and
24:14and that's I think something that that
24:16people can be doing more with.
24:19>> I'd like to divide this process that we
24:21call dating, romance, relationships,
24:23etc. into some pieces that may or may
24:26not be the right way to segment it. So,
24:28so please um change any of what I'm
24:30about to, you know, toss out. We're
24:33talking about impressions.
24:34>> Yeah.
24:35>> That either seed or don't see desire for
24:39more time. So, interest
24:41>> and then that I'll just broadly separate
24:42with compatibility over time.
24:44>> Yeah.
24:45>> So, let's spend some time on impressions
24:47that lead to desire. Which ones are
24:49meaningful? Which ones aren't? Which
24:51ones can be a bit misleading? I think
24:53most people are probably more intuitive
24:55about those if they're really honest,
24:57like what they find, who they find
24:58attractive,
24:59>> who they'd be willing to admit they find
25:01attractive if you remove all the other
25:03social inputs.
25:04>> Yeah.
25:04>> And so on. But the compatibility over
25:06time piece is the one that is really
25:08hard. If you just look at the statistics
25:10on marriage, let alone the statistics
25:12on, you know, other relationships.
25:14>> It's not a bleak picture, but the
25:16numbers don't play out into if people
25:18get together and make the commitment.
25:21Most of the time it works out. It
25:22unfortunately doesn't seem to be that
25:24way or maybe who knows fortunately but
25:26so impressions leading to desire given
25:29that many of the people listening to
25:30this will they'll be thinking about
25:32their own history with their current
25:34partner or are seeking a partner or
25:36maybe not. What do the data say about
25:39what people are picking up on as really
25:42valid cues that drive real desire as
25:47opposed to the
25:48>> the BS about like, well, everyone else
25:50thought they were great or the great on
25:52paper kind of thing. The early phases
25:55especially are just naturally filled
25:57with a lot of uncertainty. And I think
26:00this is a bummer for a lot of people
26:02because it can feel like you're really
26:04into somebody or like they're really
26:05into me and then it turns on a dime. So
26:08part of that is about like searching for
26:11signals trying to resolve the
26:13uncertainty. And the problem is that
26:15it's not like, oh, if I get sufficient
26:17evidence that you're smart, that's going
26:19to do it. Or if I get sufficient
26:21evidence that you're really good at
26:22aloquotting, that's going to do it. What
26:25people are, I think, trying to do is
26:28they're trying to figure out like, do I
26:30feel enough of something for you that I
26:33want to continue this that I want to
26:35keep going? Yes. And but I don't want to
26:38act like cuz sometimes when people think
26:40about the spark, what they think is,
26:41"Oh, it's got to be there right away and
26:43I've already got to be feeling 100 for
26:44this person, right? I got to be at the
26:46top of the scale." That actually isn't
26:48what happens on average. Typically, if
26:51you if you look at what most
26:53relationships look like and you look
26:55back at the beginning, the the typical
26:57first impression is middling. That's how
26:59we feel at first. Middling. Just kind of
27:01I don't know, middle of the sky. That
27:03seemed all right. You know, it was fine.
27:05And then we interacted again.
27:06>> Not bad, not over the top.
27:07>> Not bad. Not Not over the top. And as we
27:10spend a little more time together, oh,
27:12like actually I find him pretty funny or
27:15I think he's really smart or um you
27:19know, I really like how good a listener
27:21he was. And I think what people are
27:24often trying to do is get enough moments
27:27that fit enough of these different trait
27:30categories that they think, well, you
27:32know, whatever other people say about
27:34this person, like with me, he seems like
27:37a pretty sensitive guy. with me, he
27:39seems pretty witty. With me, you know,
27:42like I actually think he's really hot
27:45when he does XYZ. And so if you
27:47accumulate enough of those, then you
27:49find yourself, you know, it's like you
27:51keep coming back. So that's how I think
27:53about it is this like slow accumulation
27:56of information.
27:58Sometimes people will encounter things
28:00like like the ick where there's one
28:03moment and then they tip over the edge
28:05the other way into feeling like I can't
28:07be with this person.
28:08>> Is that typically women who feel that
28:10about men? I mean do men describe that?
28:12>> I think yeah men have those experiences
28:15too. It is pretty underresarched. And
28:18one of the reasons why is because this
28:20whole phase I'm talking about is
28:22remarkably hard to study because we as
28:25researchers we're very good at how do
28:28you feel about somebody if you're
28:29looking at a picture or if you've hung
28:31out for like four minutes. I mean that's
28:34what a lot of the initial attraction
28:35paradigms look like. I like those
28:37paradigms. I study those paradigms
28:39myself. And then it's very easy to
28:41recruit couples and then see what
28:44happens to them. what explains why their
28:46relationships stay together and why they
28:48fall apart. But this period and it's
28:51it's my favorite thing to think about
28:53and it's also one of the most mysterious
28:55is Yeah, but what happened from like
28:58minute 10 to you know day 30 where now
29:03you were really determined to be in a
29:06relationship with this person and and
29:08that's a typical amount of time. it it
29:11usually doesn't happen instantaneously
29:13that people know right away, hey, no,
29:15this is it. I want to be with this
29:17person. It's that slow accumulation. And
29:20when we look at it, it's it's almost
29:23like you've got a window of uncertainty
29:26and it's slowly collapsing to a stable
29:31impression that people have of this
29:33person as they gather a little bit more
29:36information and a little bit more
29:37information. And what you just hope for
29:40is that as two people you're collapsing
29:44to a fairly stable impression that is
29:46both very positive of each other. And I
29:49think a large part that's how people get
29:51together
29:52>> and hopefully accurate too.
29:54>> Yeah. So the accuracy part is
29:56interesting because I mean you know I'm
29:58a psychologist. I'm a social
30:00psychologist and so social psychologists
30:02are big into well your perception is
30:05your reality and boy do you see a lot of
30:08evidence especially in relationships
30:11that people are biased when it comes to
30:14their romantic relationships
30:15>> in what sense
30:16>> it can happen in ways like you know
30:20everybody kind of agrees that your
30:21partner's a jerk but you genuinely don't
30:24think they're a jerk and when they're
30:26with you they don't seem like a jerk so
30:28any kind measure I would take your
30:31perception of, you know, your partner
30:33versus everybody else's perception. You
30:36would seem to be horribly positively
30:38biased
30:40for your partner.
30:42The question is whether you're wrong and
30:46I land on the side of I mean from your
30:50perspective you're not
30:53to argue that it would be better to
30:56listen to the consensus that your
30:58partner is a jerk kind it's sort of like
31:01um you're arguing for like a sleeper
31:03effect like there's wisdom in what other
31:06people know that you don't see.
31:09The evidence for that is actually not
31:11not great. It's it I'm it it could be
31:14and I'm sure it happens sometimes, but
31:17what usually happens in relationships is
31:20that people's own impressions and
31:22perceptions tend to be the major driver.
31:25Now, that can go in the other way, too,
31:27because we might all agree this person
31:29would be the most amazing partner to be
31:31with, and yet you've now gotten to the
31:34point in this relationship where you
31:35don't see it anymore, and you can't
31:36unsee the negative things you've seen.
31:39And so, that relationship can be very
31:41hard to salvage. The statement has been
31:45made by someone I know and trust about
31:48all things in life, all things in life,
31:51not just relationships, but certainly
31:52including them, that
31:54If people just treated
31:57their taste in people, in music, in art,
32:03in experiences the same way they treated
32:05their taste in food, everyone would be a
32:08lot better off.
32:10>> Meaning,
32:11if one has the impression that they
32:14really like something, they really like
32:16this person, then just go for it. I
32:19mean, unless there's some sort of danger
32:21they're not aware of, right?
32:22>> Okay. Okay. And which and we'll talk
32:23about consensus, communicating danger,
32:26separate separate issue, but it crosses
32:28into this online dating thing based on a
32:30lot of conversations I've had with young
32:32men and women. But music, you hear it,
32:36you either like it or you don't. We
32:38don't tend to have a hard time defending
32:41our stance on those things. But when it
32:44comes to relationships, it's almost like
32:46we're many people are walking around
32:48with a little or a lot of that junior
32:51high narrative in their in their mind.
32:53>> Not necessarily be with somebody that
32:56they can't stand because everyone else
32:58thinks they're great. I think that's
32:59pretty rare. Probably happens, but it's
33:01pretty rare. But at these early stages
33:04that you study, that they're navigating
33:07that process in a way where they're not
33:09in tune with their own taste. they're
33:11integrating all this other information
33:13in a way that's not helpful. It's not
33:15protecting them. In fact, it's it's just
33:17clouding the signal. It's noise,
33:19>> right? In the signal to noise model,
33:20like it's noise. It's just pure noise.
33:23>> And as a consequence,
33:25>> people are wasting their time and other
33:27people's time.
33:28>> Yeah.
33:28>> And I don't believe everyone's trying to
33:31waste each other's time. It just seems
33:34that we're conditioned to do this. Yeah.
33:36And I will say it does take a pretty
33:39strong
33:40person to say, "Listen, I know that's
33:45what you see. I know that's what they
33:47say, but like this person's great. Like
33:49they're right for me." And when people
33:51do that in general, people tend to back
33:53off.
33:53>> And of course, there's
33:55>> Shakespeare about this, right? But that
33:57tends to be cultural pressure of like,
33:59"No, you two can't be together or the
34:02parents don't want her or one set of
34:03parents." I mean some of the greatest
34:05romances have been born out of that fu
34:08to the to the elders to the community
34:11but this is a little different. Yes. You
34:14know, it's a tricky thing to navigate
34:16because I I think one of the best
34:18situations to end up in is where you're
34:23in a relationship and let's say it's a
34:25new relationship and your friends around
34:27you basically think, you know, we're
34:30happy for you and we're going to
34:33celebrate you and, you know, we're going
34:36to celebrate this relationship. We
34:38support you. We just wouldn't be
34:40terribly interested in this person
34:41ourselves. That's the ideal, right?
34:44Where it's not exceptionally
34:46competitive. You're not worried about
34:48your friends trying to poach your
34:50partner away, but at the same time,
34:52they're supportive of the relationship
34:54because that support from friends and
34:57family, it is important. Like, it
35:00certainly shapes how people feel.
35:03there's a way to navigate that that
35:05doesn't make it a you know like I'm glad
35:08you I'm glad you like my girlfriend but
35:10like don't like her too much please. You
35:12want to kind of try to find that balance
35:14there. And that's a tricky thing. I mean
35:16I think this is a lot of what people are
35:18trying to navigate in adolescence.
35:20They're trying to figure out like how
35:23can I be part of a friend group and have
35:26a romantic relationship and navigate the
35:29complexities that come with that. I
35:31mean, I vividly remember these like
35:34junior high, early high school
35:36experiences
35:38of dating somebody, but also your
35:41friends are into this person. And
35:42actually, it was a relationship where my
35:46girlfriend at the time broke up with me,
35:48starts dating my best friend. We're all
35:51friends now. It's all fine now. And it's
35:53like at this moment that I discover
35:56evolutionary psychology, that I discover
35:58this narrative. And it just felt like
36:01such a double-edged sword cuz how
36:03wonderful is it to think about how
36:06people have been navigating these
36:08challenges, ex-girlfriends breaking up
36:11with you for your best friend. This has
36:13been happening for tens of thousands of
36:15years. Like I'm not alone. I'm not the
36:18first person to experience this. And
36:20then to also read at the same time, oh
36:23my god, this reflects something true
36:26about my deep underlying value. This is
36:29kind of scary. So those two things
36:33together, weirdly, were what got me
36:36hooked on this. The the feeling like
36:38evolutionary psychology is fascinating
36:40and really bleak at the same time.
36:43>> Yeah, I agree. Uh I was going to say
36:45brutal. I'm sorry you had to go through
36:47that. Although I'm glad you're all
36:48friends. I think it happens. It's all
36:49good. probably not to everyone, but I I
36:51can remember similar experiences where
36:53you're just like, "Oh man, what a gut
36:54punch." And part of the maturational
36:56process is um
36:58>> realizing like, okay, they might be
36:59better suited and they'll be someone for
37:01me. And
37:02>> honestly, they were better suited for
37:03each other.
37:04>> All right. All right. I have a question
37:06about the science or how to study these
37:08sorts of things. So, if I set aside my
37:11science hat and I say, "All right,
37:13>> you can study this stuff, but wait,
37:16>> if we're talking about a a kind of
37:18unique hook, like let's just assume the
37:20person the people are within the range
37:21of attractiveness. Again, I hate this
37:24quantitative thing, but they think the
37:25other person's attractive, they're they
37:27they're dating because they want to find
37:29someone, right? They're not resistant to
37:31commitment. They're looking for for a
37:33partner. And the number of histories
37:36that people are bringing to that is
37:39infinite or near infinite. So let's say
37:41the hook is listen one person had a hard
37:44past based on um an abusive household.
37:48The other person is really gentle. They
37:50had a great past and and the person
37:52feels very safe in that. Right? We
37:54always think about the trauma bond,
37:55right? Which is an unfortunate thing
37:57that does seem to happen. But it could
37:59also be both people had difficult pasts.
38:02you know, parents with addiction issues
38:03or mental health issues and they can
38:04relate. Okay, that's one example. The
38:06other is uh we both value X, we both
38:09value Y. And so the the unique glue,
38:12>> yeah,
38:13>> is near infinite, right? So the question
38:15I have and this isn't a challenge, it's
38:17just a genuine um curiosity is how do
38:20you study this process then? Because
38:22what are the universals of what is it
38:25what people define as some kind of um
38:29like lock and key that they didn't know
38:30they were looking for that that lock and
38:32key combination and then they go oh this
38:34feels unique and the reason I asked this
38:36is because I want to frame the the
38:38science but also I want to know to what
38:41extent being aware of what's critical to
38:44oneself is important in this process.
38:46>> Does that make sense? There's a lot of
38:48words there, but basically like how well
38:50one knows themselves can often help lead
38:52to better choices in in partner choice.
38:54>> And so people go know like gosh, I I
38:56really really would like someone that I
38:58could feel understood around this or
39:00feel really safe around this or make
39:02them feel really safe around that. With
39:03any relationship, it's almost like you
39:05have to hold these two seemingly
39:07contradictory truths at the same time.
39:09One is that
39:10>> no two people in the history of the
39:12world have experienced what we're
39:14experiencing right now. And yet there
39:18are broad general principles that we can
39:21point to that can explain some of the
39:25dynamics of every romantic relationship
39:27that has ever existed. So when it comes
39:31to broad principles, I love the
39:34attachment framework. I mean, what's
39:36fascinating about attachment is that
39:38this is just as evolutionary as all the
39:40other evolutionary theories you've heard
39:42about online. It's just a different
39:44evolutionary theory. But this
39:46perspective suggests that we are
39:49creatures that form bonds with each
39:52other. We essentially crave closeness,
39:56intimacy, support. We thrive when we get
39:59it. We're more likely to recover. We
40:02sleep better. We get all of these
40:04benefits from close attached
40:06relationships.
40:08But for some people or at some points in
40:11their lives, we can struggle to have
40:16those kinds of relationships sometimes
40:19because we become too anxious about
40:21them. We need them a little too much. We
40:24become uncomfortable in our own skin or
40:27we tip the other way. We become very
40:30avoidant. We become overly independent.
40:33We become convinced that we really don't
40:35need anybody else.
40:37These are broad attachment dynamics that
40:40people will go through their whole lives
40:42having to navigate. A lot of people have
40:44probably heard about like the you can
40:46have an anxious attachment style or an
40:48avoidant attachment style and all of
40:50that is true. But one thing we know
40:52today from studying more couples and
40:55getting better at studying couples over
40:58longer periods of time is you realize
41:01that boy people's attachment
41:03orientations really can change. So
41:06somebody can come into a relationship
41:09with an avoidant trauma-filled past, but
41:13with enough time with the right kind of
41:15person, again sharing their unique bond,
41:18which maybe science will never crack,
41:20but they know all about it.
41:23That person will start to become less
41:25and less avoidant with time. They'll
41:28become more secure. They'll get more of
41:30those physiological benefits out of the
41:32relationship. they'll get more of the
41:34support related benefits out of the
41:36relationship and that can in effect turn
41:40somebody into a more secure person. So
41:43the these are the attachment lessons
41:45that I often point to and I think
41:48they're they're useful for at least
41:49helping me remember that tension between
41:51like yeah anxiety and avoidance. Two
41:55very broad processes that are always
41:58happening behind the scenes and yet the
42:01way it unfolds for any one particular
42:03couple. It's always going to be this
42:04weird unique combination of stories and
42:07in jokes and little moments that
42:10scaffold up to hopefully, you know, help
42:13somebody become more secure eventually.
42:16I'd like to take a quick break and
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43:36Seems to me that barring um again like
43:39an emotional or physical safety issue,
43:41>> the less that couples are talking to
43:43other people besides a trained
43:45>> therapist, if they choose to do that,
43:47maybe not even doing that about their
43:50relationship, probably the more
43:52protected their relationship is. So
43:54that's interesting.
43:56>> The the darts of uh envious people.
43:59>> Um
44:00>> the unhelpful positive comments from
44:03people, right? Because there could be
44:04instances where a relationship is really
44:06flagging and and
44:08>> someone doesn't disclose that and they
44:10they don't really understand what's
44:12going on and were they not to share that
44:14then, you know, everyone's getting all
44:15this positive input and they think,
44:16well, I think this is just how it's
44:18supposed to go.
44:19>> So there's the suffering and silence
44:20piece. Y
44:22>> we want to I I don't think that's good.
44:24But there's the kind of um going out for
44:29external assessment piece. And as I say
44:32this, I you know it's it's funny because
44:34we the year at UC Davis and I did my PhD
44:36there. I was just remembering like when
44:38you pick projects in graduate school,
44:41you get some consensus about what's a
44:42good project. But so much of becoming a
44:44good scientist is kind of learning to
44:46put up the middle finger and just keep
44:48going as the the sort of pressure test
44:51of doing science is people going, "Well,
44:53that's is that really that interesting?"
44:54And you don't really know how much to
44:56pay attention to it. And it kind of pays
44:58to be a little bit bulldogish and just
45:01go, "Yeah, I don't know like and just
45:04ignore it and just keep going." I can
45:05say this is also true in any kind of
45:07creative endeavor or public facing life.
45:08Like it doesn't make good adaptive sense
45:11to pay too much attention but nobody
45:14wants to be the person that like steps
45:15in it or does something really stupid.
45:17But in relationships when if something
45:20feels good
45:21>> maybe
45:22>> we shouldn't be going out and getting
45:24you know putting our finger in the wind
45:25to get input. So it's fascinating
45:28because I mentioned earlier that right
45:30the the extent to which you feel at
45:33least like the people around you have
45:36your relationships back that's a useful
45:40thing but I think that probably isn't
45:43happening through a process of
45:47yeah like pseudotherapy I want to talk
45:49to my friends about my relationship or
45:52at least to the extent that that is
45:53happening I bet you're right that has
45:56some real risks. I think probably the
45:59good version of this process or the one
46:00that I would advocate for comes from
46:03research looking at like couple friends
46:06or like double date nights. So, I'm not
46:10asking you for input on my relationship,
46:13but in effect, I'm asking you and maybe
46:16your partner to experience our
46:19relationship in real time by hanging out
46:21together, the four of us. And so that
46:25can often feel like validation without
46:29explicitly asking for it. And I think
46:32that can often be a very good thing. And
46:34there's research showing that, you know,
46:36generally couples who feel like they
46:37have couple friends and are embedded in
46:39networks like that that that generally
46:42tends to go well on average. Um so yeah,
46:46I would think about it that way. It's
46:47like you can feel that you have the
46:49support of the people around you without
46:51directly asking
46:53for their assessment of your
46:55relationship because the reality is
46:56other people don't know. And this is
46:59hard as a judge because when I encounter
47:03couples and I have friends who are in
47:05relationships, it is so tempting to look
47:07at that relationship and think like,
47:09well, man, like she shouldn't have done
47:11that or I don't know if if I were her, I
47:14wouldn't stand for this. But I'm not in
47:16that relationship. So unless you are a
47:19therapist and they're coming to you for
47:21therapy, I find it useful to try to
47:24resist that impulse because a
47:27relationship is this vast deep store of
47:31information that two people have and
47:33often we're not privy to what's really
47:36going on there.
47:37>> I'm going back to junior high school
47:38again and I can remember at this one
47:40game I hope this isn't dramatic.
47:41>> No, no, it's not. Not at all. But we had
47:43this uh all girls school in our in our
47:45town, Castilea School, which was a
47:47boarding school. And so their dances
47:49were the best because they'd invite
47:51people from other schools, but all the
47:54>> guys were really excited to go, right?
47:56Cuz the numbers were really like worked
47:57out really well in our favorite women
48:00and and and boys and girls in our
48:02school, right? Would go to these dances.
48:04But that means you just have like an
48:06outsized pool of so everyone got someone
48:08to dance with at some point. This is
48:09what mattered in the seventh grade,
48:11right? But there were these people I had
48:14to say there were these individuals who
48:16were not going through the admittedly
48:20like tense challenge of
48:22>> first dance, first slow dance. This was
48:24before phones and it was tense then too.
48:27>> And they weren't doing any of that. What
48:28were they doing? They were running
48:30around telling people about who was
48:32doing what and who was doing that. And I
48:34remember thinking at the time, I mean,
48:35I'm no psychologist then or now, but
48:37thinking like they're avoiding the whole
48:39thing. Yeah, this is like going to a
48:40soccer game and instead of playing
48:41soccer, they're like critiquing people
48:43from the sidelines cuz it's a lot easier
48:45to do that than to actually get out
48:46there and risk and risk miss, you know,
48:49like being the goalie that lets the the
48:50winning shot through. And I remember
48:52thinking like these people are really uh
48:54really corrosive.
48:56>> Um, one or two in particular, I don't
48:58know what ever became of them.
48:59Hopefully, they're doing well in their
49:00lives. They got over this. But
49:02>> those people exist throughout life.
49:04>> Yeah.
49:04>> Meaning they're rarely the people that
49:06are happy in their own relationship
49:08life. Now, I have to say it's probably a
49:09Y chromosome link disorder, but I assume
49:12that my friends who are in male friends
49:14who are in relationship.
49:16If they're still in the relationship
49:18that it's going great.
49:19>> That's funny.
49:19>> There's not a lot of feedback. Like
49:21there's not a whole lot of feedback
49:22exchange. That said, if something were
49:24really like really off, I assume that
49:27they would bring it up, but probably not
49:29to me. like there's I do think that
49:31there's probably a sex difference here
49:33and these things are changing now, but I
49:35think that there's not a lot of sitting
49:36around talking about how well or poorly
49:39the relationship is going. And so like,
49:41you know, you ask about somebody's
49:42spouse like, "How are they doing?" And
49:43they go, "Yeah, great." Like we did this
49:44this weekend. There's not a whole lot
49:46of, "Yeah, we we had this one moment of
49:47exchange that was kind of sticky. Can I
49:49get your input on it?" Like that's not
49:50happening. That's just not happening. At
49:52least not in my life. I'm glad you
49:54brought up these gender differences
49:55because I think you're hitting on one
49:57that at least again as a relationships
49:59researcher I would sit here and say I
50:01think this is the big one. And the big
50:04one is that women generally are better
50:08at cultivating social support from all
50:11corners of their lives, not just their
50:14romantic partner. Whereas for men, it's
50:18largely their romantic partner. That's
50:20where they're getting most of their
50:23support, intimacy needs met. Probably
50:25the person who at least for a while is
50:28mostly in their corner. And this is why
50:31you see across the full range of the arc
50:35of a relationship that men are always a
50:37little bit more eager than women.
50:39>> Eager in what sense?
50:40>> Eager in in all the ways. I want to be
50:43in this relationship in the first place.
50:45I'm more likely to say I love you first.
50:46I'm more I'm more likely to want to be
50:48exclusive. I'm more likely to want to
50:50take things to the next level.
50:51>> Men are more willing to do that.
50:52>> Men's counter current to all this stuff
50:54about men being non-committal.
50:56>> Yeah. Right. So like I don't uh I don't
51:00this is what there's like new review
51:02papers on this that are really
51:04compelling and it's like kind of the
51:06same effect size across the board which
51:08is how we talk about you know how big is
51:10the sex difference? You know, it's it's
51:13mediumsiz, but it's just right there all
51:16the way through through breaking up. Who
51:18who wants who's more likely to want to
51:20break up? It's women who are more likely
51:22to want to break up. Men are more likely
51:23to be thinking about their exes.
51:25>> And the the not while they're in a
51:28relationship.
51:28>> Right. Right. Right. Not while they're
51:29in a relationship. Right. Now it's over.
51:31>> That's the meme. You know, I went
51:32online. The meme is like, who's he
51:35thinking about? Who's Okay. Yeah.
51:36Exactly. The reason put forward for
51:38this, and I find it very compelling, is
51:40that
51:42That's because men just don't quite have
51:45their social lives put together in the
51:48same way that women do. Meaning they
51:49don't have a lot of male friends or
51:52here. By the way, I want to put up a
51:53disclaimer at the beginning. I should
51:55have said this to make the conversation
51:57more fluid. We're framing everything in
51:59the context of heterosexual pairings,
52:01but I I think it's fair to assume that
52:04this would also extend to homosexual
52:06pairings.
52:06>> I think it would
52:07>> in in many ways. But
52:09>> men have friends. Yeah,
52:11>> I realize activity based friendships
52:14are, you know, kind of the the dominant
52:16theme.
52:17>> Men not getting having connection in
52:21other things.
52:22>> You know, is it could it be that the
52:25like the connection that I feel to my
52:26male friends and co-workers is is very
52:28deep.
52:29>> They're important to me. They're like
52:30family to me by now. We spend so much
52:31time together.
52:32>> So, it feels connected.
52:34>> It's just but it's a very different kind
52:36of um I don't ever think of the word
52:39intimacy. I think of trust.
52:41>> Yeah.
52:41>> And I'm not trying to just, you know,
52:42like be, you know, put up a wall to my
52:44whatever feminine traits I happen to
52:46harbor, you know, like I I I'm I'm cool
52:48with that. I'm good with the idea that I
52:52have emotions and that I have needs and
52:53stuff, but I but I think it it just
52:55makes good intuitive sense to me that if
52:58I have something that I'm really that I
53:00want input on that's of a more like has
53:03a more of an emotional undercurrent that
53:06I would bring that to my romantic
53:08partner. So, here's the question I would
53:11pose and I would be clear. I'm not a
53:12therapist. I'm a scientist. But I would
53:14I would ask you this.
53:17If something went wrong, do you feel
53:20like you have a sense that there are
53:22other people in your life and not your
53:25partner but other people that you could
53:27go to if you needed to?
53:29>> Definitely.
53:30>> See, that is the essence of social
53:33support. It's actually not literally do
53:36you take people up on it. It's do you
53:38kind of have a vague sense that people
53:40are around and that's the part that
53:42matters. That's the part that gives us
53:45the health and well-being benefits. It's
53:47like a bank account you never have to
53:49dip into. It just gives you the sense to
53:52dip into it.
53:52>> Yeah. [laughter] Right. Right. There you
53:54go.
53:54>> Luckily, it's a vast account. I try not
53:56to make too many withdrawals on it.
53:58>> Yeah.
53:58>> So, just the feeling that it's there is
54:02really the core component. And I think
54:03there are a lot of men, not you and not
54:06me, but a lot of men out there that
54:08don't feel like they have that social
54:11support bank account,
54:12>> like a close male friend or female
54:15friend or female friendly platonic or
54:17family for that matter. I mean, you
54:19know, who's who's more likely to like
54:21lose touch with siblings? I I I'm
54:24willing to bet that that's more likely
54:25to be men, too. So, I think this is part
54:29of like the modern challenge of
54:32masculinity that that that worries me
54:35that I point to like I want to help men
54:37at least have that sense. I think they
54:40can cultivate it through all the
54:42activity- based things that you describe
54:44and like I did that myself throughout my
54:4720s and 30s. Like I could not count the
54:49number of kickball and softball teams
54:51that I participated in. And I did that
54:55not because I wanted support. I don't
54:59think I ever got emotional and cried in
55:01front of any of those guys, but I knew
55:02they were there and that if I ever had
55:05to go to that, I I could. You I'm
55:08talking about memes and internet themes
55:09and I have to be careful doing that
55:11because I don't want to put too much
55:12weight on the uh the direction of those
55:15things and what they really mean. And
55:16the science is what I'm interested in.
55:18But, you know, I think um most guys
55:21would probably say that that scene in
55:23that movie, The Town, where uh Ben
55:25Affleck walks in and says, you know,
55:27listen,
55:29yep, we got to do something. People are
55:30going to get hurt. We got to do this.
55:32And you know, like, and you can't talk
55:33to anybody. And his friend's only
55:34response is who's driving.
55:36>> Yeah.
55:37>> Is is kind of like the essence of what a
55:39lot of men want and kind of idealize
55:41male friendship as. Like, are we got to
55:43go bury a body or create one? And
55:46there's it's just that it's the loyalty.
55:47It's the trust. A lot's encapsulated in
55:49that. It's a bad quote unquote badass
55:51scene, right? But they're about to do
55:53something real bad. I recommend that,
55:55right? That's not the friend test you
55:56want. I know people have used that as
55:58the friend test and they paid dearly for
56:00it. Right. But the point is that friends
56:02who aren't going to ask too many
56:03questions that they can hold in the
56:06center of their um mind without any long
56:11preamble that your friend needs
56:14something and you'll do whatever it is
56:17that they need because you love them.
56:19>> I think that that's what's the deeper
56:21layer of it.
56:23I'm realizing there I have this like
56:26sense that there's a a big contradiction
56:29not in the scientific literature but in
56:31the public perception
56:32>> which is this I feel like one common
56:35narrative these days is
56:38>> look men failed they just failed like
56:42they didn't step up right they weren't
56:44committal you know we have to take care
56:46of them they live much longer in a
56:48relationship we die much earlier
56:51>> that's one narrative that you hear a lot
56:53about. It's a scary narrative, right?
56:56>> Because you also hear the narrative,
56:58yeah, like women are just uh very
57:00extractive. They'll trade up. You know
57:02how unfortunately your friend dated your
57:05uh then they you they broke up. She
57:07broke up with you first.
57:08>> Right. Right. But, you know, a lot of
57:10the things that come into play like the
57:11Coldplay concert affair that got went
57:13viral was about this woman and you know,
57:15and a lot of it was pointed at her, him
57:17too, but you know, it was like
57:19>> a lot was made of this thing that does
57:22happen.
57:22>> Yeah.
57:23>> That there's this notion like, well, who
57:25would actually pair up with their, you
57:28know, their female friend? A woman
57:30pairing up with a female friend's
57:31husband or brother. There's a lot of
57:32that. And you never know how much of
57:33this is being these narratives are being
57:35fed. So, I feel like now we're at this
57:37point that seems to be resolving a
57:40little bit, but we've been at this point
57:41where there are these two camps and I
57:44saw something on um Twitter X some time
57:46ago and it just like stopped me in my
57:48tracks which said the way you destroy a
57:49society is to get the men and the women
57:51to hate each other and maybe I would
57:53just underwrite distrust each other.
57:55>> Yeah.
57:56>> Right. And so
57:57>> we need to move through this. I'm not
57:59actually asking you to solve it but what
58:01do the data say? For instance, if we
58:04were to look at dating apps and I ask,
58:07do you think that the dynamics on dating
58:09apps, the algorithms, which are clearly
58:11designed to make the company's money?
58:13>> Yeah.
58:13>> Do you think those are more femaledriven
58:16algorithms or maledriven algorithms? Not
58:19meaning who runs the companies. We know
58:21the answer to that
58:22>> for the most part. The question is, do
58:25you think that the apps are trying to
58:27optimize for more women to come to them
58:31or for more men to come to them and stay
58:33there? Because the theory is always kind
58:36of launch in the opposite direction. And
58:38if that wasn't clear, um I'm just
58:40wondering who's who's got the power. My
58:43understanding now again, the dating apps
58:45are hard to decipher because like these
58:48companies don't share data with us. I've
58:50worked with some matchmaking companies
58:52data. They're more interested in
58:54generally in collaborating with
58:56scientists because they've they got to
58:58make people on dates happy. They don't
59:00work on engagement, they work on happy
59:02dates, right?
59:03>> So, they're more interested in talking
59:04to scientists.
59:05>> But I think when your goal is getting
59:07users and getting engagement,
59:09>> what you're probably trying to do is
59:11bring more women in because my
59:14understanding is that there's more men
59:15on the apps. Yeah, I think so. I what I
59:19don't know and I don't know if anybody
59:21knows other than the people at these
59:22companies is like okay but how many of
59:24those apps are in use and how many
59:26people you know regular users I'm not
59:28sure. So you got to bring more women in
59:32but again engagement is the goal right I
59:36mean that's what the apps want you
59:38spending time on it and then they want
59:40you to get the fancier features. So is
59:42that going to be more geared toward men?
59:45It it might be, but I'm kind of
59:48speculating here. I expect that when
59:50you're trying to create an app for
59:53heterosexual men and women, you're going
59:56to have to somehow marry those two
59:58challenges. And look, one of the bigger
1:00:01gender differences that we see in the
1:00:04whole realm of sex and relationships is
1:00:07in swiping behavior. the fact that women
1:00:10will swipe yes on like 5% of the men
1:00:12they see, but men swipe yes at about
1:00:1550/50. But that fits the kind of
1:00:18evolutionary quote unquote narrative
1:00:20like men being less selective, wanting
1:00:22to spread their
1:00:23>> their DNA, this kind of thing. I mean,
1:00:26>> to my mind, that whole thing around like
1:00:28men want to spread their DNA. Okay. Like
1:00:31I believe in in evolutionary biology,
1:00:33sure, but there's a lot of modern
1:00:38features that make like accountability
1:00:40for offspring and things like it's not
1:00:41like men can run around just having kids
1:00:42with anyone and and afford all of that,
1:00:44right? It's I mean, you know, we were
1:00:46talking earlier the sort of like two
1:00:47models. There's like the there's like
1:00:49the Genghask Khan ideal within this
1:00:52evolutionary
1:00:53>> biology model and then there's, you
1:00:56know, kind of like where are we now? I
1:00:58mean, I don't think anyone
1:01:00with the exception of some very wealthy
1:01:01people who who have kids with lots and
1:01:03lots of people and clearly can afford
1:01:04it,
1:01:04>> I don't think anyone's thinking they're
1:01:06going to go out and just have kids with
1:01:07as many people as they possibly can,
1:01:09>> right?
1:01:10>> And so what what's so interesting about
1:01:12these gendered dynamics is that from my
1:01:16perspective, they tend to get the
1:01:18largest the biggest gulf between men and
1:01:21women in the situations that are the
1:01:23weirdest. So, for example, we this is
1:01:26and this is a real study. You recruit
1:01:29confederates. So, that means it's
1:01:30somebody who's working for the
1:01:32experimentter. And then uh they go
1:01:34around campus and they ask people, "I've
1:01:36noticed you around and I find you very
1:01:37attractive. Would you like to go to bed
1:01:39with me?" And when you do this, you find
1:01:43that men are about 20 times more likely
1:01:46to say yes to that request than women.
1:01:49Very few women say yes to this request,
1:01:52but a reasonable number of men do. All
1:01:55right. But the thing about that
1:01:57experiment, and that experiment is very
1:01:59valuable, and it's very influential, and
1:02:00I love at least that it was real, that
1:02:03people were actually out in the world
1:02:05doing something, even if it's a little
1:02:08wild and uh probably a little scary,
1:02:10especially for the women. But if you do
1:02:13this one little tweak and you say,
1:02:15"Yeah, okay, but how about like the last
1:02:18time that happened to you in real life,
1:02:20like in a context where you knew people
1:02:22and then you look at the gender
1:02:23difference, it's not 20 times more, it's
1:02:25two times more."
1:02:27>> What do you mean?
1:02:27>> It's like the last time somebody you
1:02:29know, like among a group of friends like
1:02:32ask like, "Hey, do you want to go hook
1:02:33up?" How much more likely then are men
1:02:37to say yes than women? And men are still
1:02:41more likely, but they're only twice as
1:02:43likely rather than 20 times as likely.
1:02:45>> So, this is not my belief, but the
1:02:47cynical um incel types on the internet
1:02:51or the just cynical guys will say will
1:02:54say, "Oh, that's because women are
1:02:55sleeping around more than they used to
1:02:57when the first experiment was done." I
1:02:59don't believe that's true. But I can
1:03:01tell you that would be their reflexive
1:03:03response. Like like there's so there's
1:03:05this ammo there these arrows that each
1:03:07side holds. one side holds the
1:03:09>> guys aren't stepping up. They're not
1:03:11they're not managing their own lives,
1:03:13let alone making themselves somebody who
1:03:15would be attractive as a a partner who
1:03:17could listen and do and take help take
1:03:18care of somebody because the notion of
1:03:20taking care is something we can talk
1:03:21about. the guys are saying, "Well,
1:03:24they're just all extractive, you know,
1:03:26that and there's deceptiveness there,
1:03:27and they'll trade up in a at a moment's
1:03:29notice, you know, and and so
1:03:31>> I mean, I don't want to feed the flames
1:03:34of distrust, but the data you just
1:03:37provided, what do they what is the
1:03:39conclusion? Like, so that's the result,
1:03:41but but in that paper, what's the the
1:03:44authors, you know, we the authors
1:03:46therefore conclude that?" So I would I
1:03:48would conclude this
1:03:50>> that approaching strangers
1:03:53is especially in a romantic or sexual
1:03:56context is very very tricky, very
1:04:00challenging and it is a weird modern
1:04:02skill because we actually evolved in
1:04:06environments where you didn't actually
1:04:07meet that many strangers. So if some
1:04:10people are adept at that, God bless. But
1:04:13for most of us, we had to get to know
1:04:16people over time. We needed that long
1:04:19process to make a good impression on
1:04:21somebody because most of us are like not
1:04:24all that hot and [laughter] not so
1:04:26appealing that people fall for us the
1:04:28moment we see them. And so that is what
1:04:30I would tell these hypothetical incels
1:04:32is I think part of the problem is that
1:04:35you're locked into a way of thinking
1:04:37about sex and romance that it's about a
1:04:40pickup line or it's about an initial
1:04:41impression. I think women are more
1:04:44interested in casual sex when it's
1:04:46somebody that they like kind of know and
1:04:48have been friendly with for a while and
1:04:51have had like some good banter with. And
1:04:53if you surround yourself with people,
1:04:56not just women, but also men, and you
1:04:59meet friends of friends, you're going to
1:05:01find more opportunities that way. So,
1:05:04it's like a shift in the mindset that we
1:05:06have about how it is we meet people and
1:05:09how it is we get to know them. and that
1:05:11hitting on strangers is like low yield,
1:05:15very difficult. Spending time with
1:05:17friends, it's time consuming, although
1:05:19it's enjoyable in and of itself. It's a
1:05:22timeconsuming approach, but it's
1:05:24ultimately going to be better for more
1:05:27people. Uh, you know, on on average, at
1:05:30least in light of the apps, social
1:05:33media, this divide, I I'm very grateful
1:05:36that you're bringing up this notion of
1:05:38spending time in small groups. Yeah,
1:05:40probably around certain activities.
1:05:42Could be pickle ball, could be a
1:05:43barbecue, could be I mean that's how
1:05:45people used to meet. You know, sometimes
1:05:48there's work adjacency. I mean, I think
1:05:50that one of the reasons the coal play
1:05:51thing went so viral is that the woman
1:05:53was head of HR. So there were a number
1:05:55of things that were ethical violations
1:05:56independent of like they tried to kind
1:05:58of rescue it like but they were in love
1:06:00and there were marriages were failing
1:06:01and people were like there are
1:06:03violations down the line on this right
1:06:05you know in laboratories
1:06:07>> many people cuddled up in laboratories
1:06:09you know my adviserss were always like
1:06:11really adamant that no one should do
1:06:12that I listen interesting oh yeah
1:06:14>> so they try to lock it down I mean in
1:06:16graduate school I I worked alone in the
1:06:18lab but my graduate adviser actually uh
1:06:20suggested I not even date within our
1:06:22graduate program this is peerto-peer I
1:06:23was a graduate student and for the most
1:06:25part I I obeyed but I was so focused on
1:06:28work and and I guess it happened with
1:06:30like you'd go to meetings you meet other
1:06:32graduate students so it was really
1:06:33peerto-peer
1:06:34>> in my post-doal laboratory my adviser
1:06:37was like vocal to everyone like no
1:06:39dating in the lab and of course there
1:06:40are certain married couples nowadays
1:06:42with kids
1:06:43>> several of them in fact that met in the
1:06:44lab just by proximity interest and who
1:06:46knows aloequading prowess who knows
1:06:48>> somebody out there an incredible aloquat
1:06:51that never got to attract somebody to my
1:06:54knowledge this by the way folks again
1:06:56this is not a way to attract a mate
1:06:57[laughter] unless you're a molecular
1:06:59biologist perhaps but I think that
1:07:02there's real value in this in this
1:07:04because unlike our earlier discussion
1:07:06where other people's input
1:07:08>> um be can be kind of toxic to the
1:07:11process of understanding and really
1:07:12getting in touch with one's sense of
1:07:14taste I like this person I don't this
1:07:15feels safe it doesn't feel safe and I'm
1:07:17not using by the way the safe language
1:07:18to be politically correct like some
1:07:20people feel emotionally unsafe because
1:07:22it's just like like if there were a
1:07:24stressful circumstance, they would
1:07:25dissolve into a puddle of their own
1:07:27tears. That's a different version of it,
1:07:28right? I think we all kind of like flit
1:07:30to the the extremes. But that's that's
1:07:32another aspect.
1:07:33>> But this is a context in which you can
1:07:35get a read of how someone behaves, their
1:07:38values, their reflexive levels of
1:07:41kindness or lack thereof with other
1:07:43people.
1:07:44>> Yeah.
1:07:44>> You get a lot of data.
1:07:46>> Yeah.
1:07:47>> In a in a setting that
1:07:49>> you're hopefully enjoying yourself in
1:07:51any way. That seems very very valuable.
1:07:54>> So we're talking 80s movies and 90s
1:07:56movies already. So I'm gonna throw out
1:07:58Say Anything.
1:07:59>> Oh yeah.
1:07:59>> Do you remember Say Anything?
1:08:00Absolutely. So the John Cusack lead
1:08:03character um asks out the Ioni Sky
1:08:06character, but where they go on their
1:08:09first date is absolutely fascinating.
1:08:11They go to a party. So, they are clearly
1:08:15going together, but they don't spend the
1:08:18whole party like attached to each other
1:08:20and they're not interviewing each other
1:08:22like they met on an app. They're
1:08:24actually kind of watching each other as
1:08:26they float through these various groups.
1:08:29And sometimes they're talking to other
1:08:31folks about the fact that they're kind
1:08:32of on a date right now and how is it's
1:08:34going, but they're also talking to each
1:08:37other. And it's kind of a beautiful
1:08:39depiction of this old kind of lost art
1:08:43of you're dating, but you're also with
1:08:46other people seeing how uh they behave.
1:08:49And and one of the moments where I sky
1:08:53sort of you can see are starting to fall
1:08:55for John Cusack is when he's actually
1:08:58looking out for some of the other folks
1:09:00there like you know taking their keys
1:09:01away so they don't drive. And I I think
1:09:05that that idea of like watching how we
1:09:07behave around other people can be very
1:09:09powerful.
1:09:10>> So one of his unique qualities was that
1:09:12he's protective of other people and
1:09:14responsible and he put other people's
1:09:15safety ahead of his own desire to go out
1:09:17and drink that night or something.
1:09:18>> Yeah.
1:09:18>> Yeah. I forgot that scene.
1:09:20>> I'm I I That's a perfect segue to what I
1:09:22was going to say next, but I'm brought
1:09:24to this mildly traumatic experience in
1:09:26high school where I didn't go any go to
1:09:28any high school dances early in high
1:09:30school. I was like really in the
1:09:31skateboard community, just really
1:09:32focused on that. And then uh it was my
1:09:35junior year of high school.
1:09:36>> Um the now woman, then young woman,
1:09:41girl, whatever, uh asked me that. It was
1:09:43the Satie Hawkins dance where the the
1:09:45girls asked the boys. This was very
1:09:48oldfashioned, right? Like I've heard
1:09:49this. It already assumes, right, that
1:09:51the guy that the guys always ask the
1:09:53girls, which was pretty much the
1:09:54standard.
1:09:55>> We go and um she was a year older and
1:09:58extremely beautiful, super kind. It
1:10:00ended up being a very long-term
1:10:01relationship. But I remember going and
1:10:03she had something back then where her
1:10:05hands would get really cold.
1:10:07>> She had this thing where it was a cold
1:10:08night. And so she went into the
1:10:10bathroom. She said, "I'd have to like
1:10:10warm my hands." She was in there a
1:10:12really long time. And I'm standing out
1:10:14there and people are coming up to me and
1:10:17they're like, "What are you doing here?"
1:10:19Like, "Why are you at a dance?" And I
1:10:20said, "So and so invited me." And no one
1:10:23believed me. They was like, "There's no
1:10:24chance." And I have to say, it was the
1:10:26most mortifying thing. [laughter] And I
1:10:27kept waiting for this moment where she
1:10:29would come out of the bathroom and like
1:10:30vindicate me. And they all kept like
1:10:32dissipating before she came back. She
1:10:33eventually came back. And I just
1:10:35remember thinking like, oh man, like
1:10:36nobody even and I thinking like I'm
1:10:38either completely outclassed, like
1:10:41completely outclassed or like this is
1:10:44one of the best opportunities that ever
1:10:45landed uh in my lap and I'm going to I'm
1:10:47going to pursue this with everything
1:10:48I've got. So I went with the second
1:10:49thing and anyway, we uh
1:10:51>> this is John Cusack enter.
1:10:52>> It was it was brutal. Like I had to sit
1:10:54there and like you know and like no one
1:10:56believed me. They actually thought like
1:10:57I just like snuck in or something like
1:10:59that. Anyway,
1:11:01the John Cusack example is a really good
1:11:03one because his character in that movie
1:11:05is a little awkward along certain
1:11:06dimensions. He's certainly not as um
1:11:09quote unquote ambitious in the typical
1:11:10sense, although he wants to be a great
1:11:11kickboxer. Kickboxing sport of the
1:11:13future, right? It's a great scene
1:11:15between him and and her dad where he's
1:11:17explaining what he's going to do in life
1:11:18and and not in any kind of uh fluent way
1:11:23>> and her family clearly has other plans
1:11:25for her. But it gets to this thing that
1:11:29I had written down because I want to ask
1:11:31about next which is this notion of
1:11:33texting in particular. So not even apps
1:11:36but let's just say it's migrated off app
1:11:38or people meet they exchange number and
1:11:39there's some texting right and this
1:11:42notion of of the kind of unique um
1:11:45advantage at least early on
1:11:48>> that I think can be somewhat misleading
1:11:51of people who are hyperverbal. Oh,
1:11:54interesting.
1:11:55>> And in particular among men. And so
1:11:56here's what um I think years ago when I
1:11:59was on the job market for academic
1:12:01science, a really fantastic
1:12:03neurobiologist who actually read uh ran
1:12:05um let's just say a very famous school
1:12:07in Boston's brain science center. Um
1:12:09they never admit the name of their
1:12:10school anyway. um said to me, he said,
1:12:13"You know, the worst part about the job
1:12:15search process in uh neuroscience is
1:12:19that it selects for hyperverbal people
1:12:21where people can present their data,
1:12:23excite people about it, present their
1:12:24vision." And he said, "And there's so
1:12:26many amazing scientists that just don't
1:12:28know how to communicate their data
1:12:30>> and we're selecting for someone who can
1:12:32also teach, who can also do these
1:12:34things." And I realize he's absolutely
1:12:36right, you know, and some people can
1:12:38overcome this, but some of the best
1:12:40scientists in the world, speaking isn't
1:12:42their forte.
1:12:43>> Yeah.
1:12:43>> Okay. So, in the realm of text
1:12:45communication, there's a kind of a bias
1:12:48toward can somebody like a good listener
1:12:51in a face to face interaction like a guy
1:12:53can just sit there, listen,
1:12:55>> not interrupt, nod, maybe reflect,
1:12:59>> maybe reflect, tell me more. Well, that
1:13:02must have been interesting, hard,
1:13:03whatever, you know, and can convey a lot
1:13:06of of genuine ability to uh to
1:13:10communicate and bond
1:13:12>> over text, just listening
1:13:16>> doesn't work. In fact, if it's just
1:13:17like, wow, that must have been hard to
1:13:19like a paragraph this long, like it
1:13:21starts to fall flat. And this is where I
1:13:23think
1:13:24>> some people might be screaming, no, no,
1:13:26no, that's what I want. you know, but
1:13:28there's a strong selection process now
1:13:31for people who can communicate quickly
1:13:33with their thumbs, be witty in writing.
1:13:36>> And so the hyperverbal thing has moved
1:13:38to text.
1:13:39>> Yeah,
1:13:40>> that's a challenge. And I do think even
1:13:42though some men are very hyperverbal,
1:13:45there is a sex difference here that we
1:13:47are well aware of.
1:13:48>> So do you think that that's skewing
1:13:51things? because the ability to to kind
1:13:53of keep to get and keep somebody's
1:13:54interest early on is strongly dependent
1:13:56on these days on texting,
1:13:57>> right? I think this is a really good
1:14:00point. You know, I was reminded of some
1:14:03work, this is early work in the like
1:14:07online interaction space that suggested
1:14:11that actually anxious people get a lot
1:14:14out of being able to communicate with a
1:14:17keyboard or with texting because they
1:14:19don't get so overwhelmed. So, this is
1:14:22probably going to be somebody who also
1:14:25on a first date would be having a bit of
1:14:27a tough time. So, it might be that
1:14:31actually texting for them has at least
1:14:34the advantage of reducing some of the
1:14:36anxiety because they can take a minute
1:14:37to think about what they want to say
1:14:40before they have to actually come out
1:14:41with it. But I also think you're right
1:14:44that the ability to be witty over text
1:14:49um as opposed to the kind of like
1:14:51nonverbal listening that you're
1:14:52describing that is going to be a special
1:14:55advantage for some people today. So it c
1:14:58it could very well be skewing things in
1:15:00the way that you describe. There's not
1:15:02great data on this either. I mean I
1:15:04mentioned earlier we don't have great
1:15:05data on like the arc of the
1:15:07relationship.
1:15:08But some of the the people that have
1:15:11tackled this question uh this is great
1:15:14researcher named Mimi Binberg at at Ohio
1:15:16State. And what she does is she gets
1:15:19couples who are together and then says,
1:15:22"Uh, let me uh let me see your texts."
1:15:26And then gets the whole text thread go
1:15:28with their permission all the way back
1:15:31to when they first started texting. And
1:15:33what you see are some cool things like
1:15:36essentially their styles of
1:15:37communicating start to like cohhere,
1:15:40right? It's like a pattern of mutual
1:15:42influence where they they get the
1:15:44similar cadence and they start using
1:15:46similar words and other things as
1:15:49they're talking to each other. Now, of
1:15:51course, those are the successful cases.
1:15:53So, what would it look like if we had
1:15:55the unsuccessful cases? And I think
1:15:57you're right. We would see that the
1:15:59people who can't match or can't be witty
1:16:03early on that those are the the text
1:16:06threads that never become couples. Um,
1:16:09so we just have to figure out how to
1:16:10recruit those folks to to be in our
1:16:13studies. Give us the last 10 threads of
1:16:15of uh, you know, dates that never went
1:16:17anywhere.
1:16:18>> I'd like to take a quick break and
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1:17:37to claim a free sample pack. Yeah, we're
1:17:40sort of veering towards compatibility
1:17:42when I say um you know, if I were to,
1:17:44you know, ask a close family member, you
1:17:46know, like what's great about the
1:17:47relationship you're in, uh this is a
1:17:50woman, and she'll be referring to her
1:17:51male partner in this case. She'll
1:17:54generally talk about the things that he
1:17:57does and the things that he is able to
1:18:00do in support that may or may not even
1:18:02require the ability to speak. Now, he's
1:18:04not aphasic, you know, um but you know,
1:18:08it's
1:18:09>> it's more about like
1:18:11>> what he does. And when we've had
1:18:13conversations on [clears throat] this
1:18:14podcast in the past about kind of
1:18:15relationship glue and things like that,
1:18:17it's like it's like, oh, that they
1:18:18always like, you know,
1:18:20>> one person always seems to like make the
1:18:22bed by the time I'm back from the
1:18:23bathroom in the morning and you're like,
1:18:25"No, my turn." And they they or the
1:18:26other person always sets out the coffee
1:18:28or some it's these the little thing
1:18:30phenomenon. Rarely is it like sometimes
1:18:33it's a note but rarely is it like
1:18:36>> yeah I love the way you know he strings
1:18:38together uh you know sentences or
1:18:42something like I love the way that I
1:18:43love the way that um you know she
1:18:46describes this thing you know so
1:18:48>> it's often about actions at least in the
1:18:50in the observing the qualities of the
1:18:52positive qualities of the male partner
1:18:54and that's very kind of
1:18:55>> stereotypical
1:18:57>> but I think that it just it's it's a
1:18:59kind of window in my mind into the
1:19:01difference between the quote unquote
1:19:04exploration and courting process,
1:19:06although the courting process, what
1:19:08people do arguably matters more than
1:19:10what they say,
1:19:11>> and the kind of long-term thing,
1:19:15>> the the consistency of of the stability
1:19:18of the relationship over time.
1:19:20>> So, I wish that, you know, it's it's a
1:19:21shame that these apps don't select for
1:19:23uh action. The only way to do that would
1:19:26would be something where you would say,
1:19:28"Okay, if you're going to sign up for
1:19:29this app, you know, we're going to ask
1:19:31you to go on at least three dates with,
1:19:33you know, anybody that you match with,
1:19:35and we want to see you dating in these
1:19:37very different circumstances where the
1:19:40point isn't always to just talk at each
1:19:43other. That also you like you got to do
1:19:46things together." I wish there were
1:19:47dates that were like assemble this IKEA
1:19:50furniture.
1:19:50>> Don't people still go for like a hike or
1:19:52go to a show?
1:19:52>> Yeah. Yeah. No, that's that that's good,
1:19:54too, cuz at least it's it's talking and
1:19:56interacting, but a different kind of
1:19:58talking and interacting. I want I want
1:19:59like physical challenges. Get out of
1:20:01this escape room, stuff like that.
1:20:03Anyway, I'm not actually handle.
1:20:05>> Yeah, right. You're right. Yeah. So, you
1:20:07got to be witty, but also not panic.
1:20:09>> Do you suggest that? Is it is it like a
1:20:10first date?
1:20:11>> I don't know. Maybe third date.
1:20:12>> Okay.
1:20:13>> Third date sounds good for escape. I
1:20:15want to be clear. I've never I've only
1:20:16done the the escape room board games.
1:20:18>> You're just throwing people under the
1:20:19bus just to see what happens. Get to
1:20:20that date. Yeah. No, no, I'm just
1:20:22kidding. But like you know events that
1:20:24sporting events I mean things that are
1:20:26um uh that are exciting that you're
1:20:30doing together but also facilitate
1:20:32interaction I think can be really good.
1:20:35It is very very hard though to simulate
1:20:40the patterns of what would it be like to
1:20:43be in a long-term relationship with this
1:20:45person and the 4,000 daily
1:20:48responsibilities that come with that.
1:20:51And I think even when we are really
1:20:54crazy about somebody early on, we try to
1:20:58forecast what that's going to be like as
1:20:59best we can, but we really don't know.
1:21:03And I think the like the beautiful thing
1:21:06but also the challenge that a lot of
1:21:08relationships have is you know what you
1:21:10do is you know like you just described
1:21:12like okay it becomes my job to set out
1:21:14the coffee and it becomes your job to
1:21:16mow the lawn and we create this very
1:21:19elaborate structure that guides not just
1:21:23our day-to-day lives and the crap we
1:21:25have to do but it also guides how we
1:21:28communicate when we communicate what we
1:21:30communicate about. If we create a
1:21:33business together,
1:21:36that can create a relationship that
1:21:37starts to feel like more transactional,
1:21:40that's maybe less warm, has less
1:21:42opportunity for connection
1:21:45as opposed to creating a relationship
1:21:47that builds, you know, time for fun
1:21:50activities together, for fun
1:21:52experiences, or again, I recognize like
1:21:55people are stressed and often working
1:21:56multiple jobs, but at least when we are
1:21:58interacting, are we able to interact
1:22:00about the fun, silly things that brought
1:22:03us together in the first place. Um, I
1:22:06think it's it's very challenging to do
1:22:08these things. When people go to couples
1:22:10therapy and the couples therapy is
1:22:11effective, it's usually because
1:22:15therapists are able to help couples
1:22:19essentially like rewind all the bad
1:22:21patterns they've created and go back to
1:22:23when things were good. uh rediscover
1:22:26what it was that they really appreciated
1:22:29about each other and like recreate their
1:22:31relationship from there in a new way.
1:22:33But yes, many of these things are
1:22:35they're just deeply deeply hard to
1:22:37forecast.
1:22:39>> Yeah. And there's always the natural
1:22:41desire to want to know if one's time and
1:22:44energy is well spent. I mean it's really
1:22:47in some sense the most um important
1:22:51investment is time and energy of I mean
1:22:54and uh it's kind of all we have it's all
1:22:56we have and that's very evolutionary in
1:22:59its core. You talked before about this
1:23:01kind of crystal ball question or um
1:23:04probing for particular disclosures that
1:23:07people are willing or not willing to
1:23:09make as a
1:23:10>> as [snorts] a perhaps better indication
1:23:12of whether somebody is interesting or
1:23:15appropriate. Yeah.
1:23:16>> For you. I realize however that the
1:23:19notion that there's a like a question or
1:23:21a set of questions that would say green
1:23:23light
1:23:24>> is that's not true. That just can't be
1:23:28true. There's probably some answers that
1:23:29are red light. Everyone, you know, knows
1:23:31red light. Hopefully, they're paying
1:23:33attention to that, but they it's the
1:23:35yellow it's the yellow but it's the
1:23:37yellow lights and not knowing what
1:23:38questions to ask to see if there's a
1:23:40sort of green light path forward. Tell
1:23:43me what those questions are. Like,
1:23:45phrased differently. If two people are
1:23:47on a date and they have only a few
1:23:49minutes, it's kind of a speed dating
1:23:51type situation and they need to make a
1:23:52good assessment as to whether or not
1:23:54they genuinely would like to spend more
1:23:56time with the person again.
1:23:58uh what what are the questions they
1:24:00should ask?
1:24:01>> All right. So, I like the questions that
1:24:03are a little bit more offbeat. You know,
1:24:05what people tend to do on speed dates is
1:24:07they they want to find common ground
1:24:10quickly. You know, if it's college
1:24:12students, maybe we're going to talk
1:24:13about their major. Uh do we share a
1:24:14major? No. Uh like pivot. Uh where are
1:24:16you from? And they'll try to find
1:24:18something that they can bond over
1:24:22[snorts] and that can work very well.
1:24:25But I think the core of what we want in
1:24:29an initial interaction with somebody is
1:24:31to take away something that feels like
1:24:33it was at least a little different than
1:24:35all the other interactions that we have.
1:24:37And so sometimes what that means is
1:24:40going a touch deeper than people are
1:24:44comfortable with. Now in in 4 minutes
1:24:47it's tricky if you have a little bit
1:24:50longer like a regular evening length
1:24:52date. I really like the 36 questions
1:24:54test. Like this is the sometimes it's
1:24:57called the fast friends procedure, but
1:24:59these are questions like, you know,
1:25:01what's one thing that you've never told
1:25:04somebody that you've always wanted to
1:25:05tell them and what's stopping you? Or
1:25:07>> people answer that.
1:25:08>> Yeah. I mean, after if you've been
1:25:10hanging out with somebody for 60 to 90
1:25:13minutes, that is a pretty good way to
1:25:17elicit real depth and give like both
1:25:21people a chance to do some reciprocal
1:25:23self-disclosure cuz that's what people
1:25:25want. That's what people connect over is
1:25:27like I've like I feel like I've just
1:25:30heard you. Maybe it's true, maybe it's
1:25:32not, but I feel like you've just told me
1:25:34something that you haven't told most
1:25:36people and maybe you haven't told
1:25:38anybody. I vividly remember falling for
1:25:42somebody when that moment happened. It's
1:25:45like I really you are telling me this. I
1:25:48I don't I don't think you've ever told
1:25:50anybody this before and it is such a
1:25:54rush. I I think like I don't know, man.
1:25:57The internet, it's like convince us all
1:25:59we care about is like sex and hotness.
1:26:01There is nothing like the rush of having
1:26:04somebody tell you something that they've
1:26:05never told anybody else. And again, this
1:26:08is like the stuff that gets
1:26:09relationships researchers excited
1:26:10because this is what we see in our data.
1:26:12Responsiveness, closeness, like building
1:26:15trust and all of that stuff. Now again,
1:26:17four minutes is really hard. Four
1:26:19minutes you just got to get a little
1:26:21nugget of something that you want to
1:26:22build off later. And maybe that is your
1:26:25hometown and maybe it is like, "Isn't
1:26:27this a weird experience that we're only
1:26:29going to get to chat for 4 minutes, but
1:26:31whenever there are roots to go for a
1:26:34little bit more disclosure, I usually
1:26:36advise that that people go for it. It it
1:26:39it will pay off on average, even if it
1:26:42can feel kind of awkward in the moment."
1:26:44Do you think there's uh more excitement
1:26:47if one gets the sense that the other
1:26:49person is um taking a bit of a risk in
1:26:53disclosing it? Not like I've been dying
1:26:55to tell somebody this and there's never
1:26:56been opportunity. Thanks for giving me
1:26:58the opportunity and
1:26:59>> you know I whatever. I always, you know,
1:27:02wanted to come back in my second life as
1:27:04a guppy or something. I I don't know.
1:27:05I'm picking a trivial example on purpose
1:27:07[laughter]
1:27:08cuz it's not true. Much better tropical
1:27:10fish. Big tropical fish enthusiast. much
1:27:12better freshwater discus. Much better
1:27:14fresh owned by me cuz it would be have a
1:27:16really good life. Um take really good
1:27:18care of my freshwater discus. But in all
1:27:21seriousness, does that mean that people
1:27:23are walking around harboring, especially
1:27:26single people are harboring
1:27:29parts of themselves that they're craving
1:27:31intimacy, you know, that that's of the
1:27:34exchange things that they've never told
1:27:36anyone that they wish they could tell
1:27:37someone, feel safe enough to tell them.
1:27:39Is that what you're talking about? you
1:27:41know, creating a real moment of intimacy
1:27:43early on. That's not physical intimacy.
1:27:46It's
1:27:47>> I don't even know if it's emotional
1:27:48intimacy. It's like it's like human
1:27:50connection, right? It's like I'm a
1:27:53person that's had particular experiences
1:27:55and you're a person that's that's had
1:27:57particular experiences and we have these
1:27:59like narratives and stories about
1:28:01ourselves.
1:28:02>> Again, the science historically has been
1:28:04so focused on traits and I get it. Like
1:28:07I and I understand the evolutionary
1:28:08focus on traits, but man, humans are
1:28:11stories, right? We're narratives and we
1:28:14want other people to be privy to that
1:28:17narrative and then maybe eventually be a
1:28:20part of it. So I think that that is
1:28:23often what can be very powerful. Now for
1:28:25people who are single and they like want
1:28:27to be in a relationship, I do think that
1:28:31it can be that sense that they're
1:28:33lacking. A lot of people are single and
1:28:35are very very happy with their single
1:28:37lives. And I also understand that a lot
1:28:39of people if they're single and they're
1:28:40dating.
1:28:42Look, there's a lot of reasons to be
1:28:44cautious. Forming a relationship is a
1:28:46low base rate event. It doesn't happen
1:28:48all that often.
1:28:50>> And it's time costly. It can be
1:28:51financially costly. It's energetically
1:28:54costly. Exactly. It's very
1:28:55energetically.
1:28:56>> Exactly. Like we don't go around forming
1:28:58relationships with everybody. But I I
1:29:00also happen to think that like once the
1:29:02ball gets rolling, the pull can be very
1:29:04strong. And part of that pull is this
1:29:08this desire to have somebody kind of see
1:29:11me, get me, understand me. I might be
1:29:14talking about securely attached people
1:29:15on average, right? There's always going
1:29:17to be that avoidance pull too, like
1:29:19people need to self-protect to some
1:29:22extent, but the sort of desire to open
1:29:25up and have somebody like really get
1:29:26you, it's it's so core to the
1:29:29relationship science worldview and and I
1:29:32think it says a lot about like who we
1:29:35are as a species and like how we form
1:29:37mating relationships.
1:29:39You've said in um so many words uh
1:29:43before uh that men and women essentially
1:29:45want the same things.
1:29:47>> Yeah. I think that's going to hit some
1:29:49people square in the face and they're
1:29:50going to say that is so not true. Men
1:29:53just want blank. Women just want blank.
1:29:55>> I I'm like on this campaign lately to
1:29:58try and defang
1:30:00>> the trolls. Yeah.
1:30:02>> That seem to have like it's like it we
1:30:05were in high school. Let's leave junior
1:30:06high school. Let's go to high school.
1:30:08And there were like a bunch of like
1:30:09really awful people. Let's evenly
1:30:12distribute it between the sexes. Let's
1:30:13just do that for fairness sake. Yeah.
1:30:15>> And they're like constantly pointing out
1:30:17how
1:30:18>> these people are always bad and
1:30:21extractive and these people are always,
1:30:23you know, uh, cold and avoidant and like
1:30:25and and if those narratives were just
1:30:27constantly like posted on the walls and
1:30:29like and talked about in the uh over
1:30:32lunch and whispered in the hallways, it
1:30:34would be very poisonous to the whole
1:30:37environment. And that's kind of what the
1:30:38internet is. and then the traditional
1:30:41news, but also some podcasts, not this
1:30:43podcast, but will kind of amplify these
1:30:45narratives because they feel juicy. They
1:30:48feel uh and they get clicks.
1:30:50>> And I think we all have an innate desire
1:30:52to avoid danger. So, we like know
1:30:54[clears throat] where where this stuff
1:30:56is. But when you step back, you go,
1:30:58right? Like most people are pretty
1:30:59well-meaning. Most people are looking
1:31:01for good partnership. Nobody's perfect,
1:31:03but uh where people make mistakes. Most
1:31:05people are like looking to at least
1:31:07modify their behavior over time. Like
1:31:10it's all reasonably benevolent, but then
1:31:12there are these like
1:31:14>> kind of nasty characters out there
1:31:16>> and we give them so much credit and we
1:31:19give them so much power
1:31:20>> and they just plain suck.
1:31:22>> Yeah.
1:31:22>> So
1:31:23>> men and women want the same things.
1:31:25Let's shut them up for a second and ask
1:31:27what the data say. This was one of the
1:31:29first things I studied when I started
1:31:31looking at attraction like almost 20
1:31:34years ago now. And in part because I
1:31:37found the gender differences
1:31:38fascinating. It was very clear for
1:31:41decades and decades that if you ask men
1:31:43and women about the qualities they want
1:31:45in a partner that you'll see these
1:31:47differences show up pretty routinely and
1:31:50they are differences that then in the
1:31:52hands of nefarious characters online get
1:31:54spun out into exactly the narrative that
1:31:56you're describing. But the basic data on
1:31:59what men and women say they want, it's
1:32:02there. Men will say they care about
1:32:04attractiveness in a partner more than
1:32:06women. And women will say they care
1:32:07about earning potential in a partner
1:32:09more than men. Now, I'm phrasing that in
1:32:12a particular way. And I'm I'm saying
1:32:15what people say they want because I'm
1:32:18critiquing the experimental paradigms
1:32:21that were used. It usually had people
1:32:24rating a bunch of traits on scales. And
1:32:27as a psychologist, I have no problem
1:32:29with that. I'm very interested in
1:32:30people's subjective experiences and I
1:32:32use scales all the time. But we wondered
1:32:36that's different than or it might be
1:32:40different than what happens when you're
1:32:42meeting people face to face and you're
1:32:45reacting to a set of people who might be
1:32:48very attractive or of middling
1:32:50attractiveness or not very attractive at
1:32:52all. And that to me seems closer to
1:32:55capturing what people actually want.
1:32:57Like if you meet 10 women, how much does
1:33:01their attractiveness drive your desire
1:33:05to date them? How much does
1:33:06attractiveness affect whether you want a
1:33:09second date with them or not? So, we ran
1:33:11speed dating studies to try to capture
1:33:14exactly this phenomenon. I'll make it
1:33:17about earning prospects because it's
1:33:18really the same the same thing. So, we
1:33:21have these men and they go speed dating
1:33:23and some of these women are very
1:33:24ambitious. They're going to be lawyers
1:33:25and doctors. Others are a little bit
1:33:28less ambitious. And what you'd see is
1:33:30that the men tended to like the women a
1:33:33little bit more to the extent that they
1:33:34were ambitious. It wasn't a huge driver
1:33:36of their liking, but it was definitely
1:33:39there and it was definitely positive.
1:33:41But then when we flipped it and we
1:33:43looked at what the women were drawn to,
1:33:45not what they said, but what they were
1:33:47drawn to, they also tended to like the
1:33:49ambitious men a little bit. And the
1:33:52magnitude of that preference was
1:33:53identical. And it's been 20 years of
1:33:56this where we've looked at ongoing
1:33:58relationships. We've looked at um you
1:34:01know 40 something countries throughout
1:34:03the world. That narrative uh plays out
1:34:06every time. There's no gender
1:34:08differences in the extent to which these
1:34:11traits appeal to men and women when
1:34:14they're evaluating like real people
1:34:16they've actually met. Online is
1:34:18different. What people say they want is
1:34:20different. but real people that you've
1:34:22at least met face to face seems to
1:34:25dramatically reduce the power of the
1:34:27gender differences and the appeal of
1:34:28these traits.
1:34:30>> Fascinating and runs countercurrent to I
1:34:32think what many people including I have
1:34:34heard out there.
1:34:35>> Yeah. But but I think the like I think
1:34:37the key lesson here is like
1:34:41>> believe your subjective experience when
1:34:44you're interacting with somebody and
1:34:46you're getting to know them. And maybe
1:34:47that subjective experience is like,
1:34:49"She's hot, but I am not feeling this."
1:34:51And maybe that subjective experience is
1:34:53like, you know, I know that maybe to
1:34:56some people he looks like he doesn't
1:34:57have his life together, but I really see
1:34:59a spark there.
1:35:02If you trust that experience, I think
1:35:05that's likely to go better.
1:35:08And we don't have an experience to go on
1:35:10like that when it's online. When it's
1:35:12online, it's very easy to put people in
1:35:14boxes, put people in groups, and then
1:35:15make the groups fight each other. And I
1:35:18too am very distressed about all the
1:35:20heteropessimism.
1:35:22>> Yeah. Right. That's It's not my term,
1:35:24but it's one of my favorite terms.
1:35:25>> Do you know who coined it?
1:35:26>> I know the year is like 2019, but I
1:35:28forget the author. Yeah, look it up.
1:35:30>> Great term. Heteropet. Right. It's like
1:35:33men and women can't get along. How could
1:35:34they get along? They've got different
1:35:36interests and different priorities.
1:35:38Look, in the close relationships realm,
1:35:40it's not true. And that's the realm I
1:35:43know. Men and women, they want the same
1:35:45things out of their relationships. Yes,
1:35:48there are gender differences and like
1:35:50the thresholds for sex and especially
1:35:52early on that can be that can be really
1:35:55messy. Um, but overall I see a lot of
1:35:59similarity and a lot of potential for
1:36:01these the bonds that men and women form
1:36:04to do great things for people and women
1:36:06and women and men and men and any
1:36:08gendered combination that you want to
1:36:09come up with. Um, I think we're pair
1:36:13bonding creatures. We get a lot of joy
1:36:15and a lot of fulfillment out of that.
1:36:17And I want to see men and women find a
1:36:19way to make it work again.
1:36:21springboarding off of the heteropesses.
1:36:23Yeah. term, which is great because it
1:36:25encapsulates so much even though what it
1:36:27encapsulates is definitely not great.
1:36:29Yeah. The term I'm about to use is gonna
1:36:31sound um
1:36:33>> like it means something uh it doesn't.
1:36:35But is there any research on
1:36:37homopessimism, which is not the same as
1:36:39homophobia? Homopim meaning I'm not
1:36:41aware because I happen to be
1:36:43heterosexual, but I have homosexual
1:36:44friends, men and women. I'm not hearing
1:36:47them talk a lot about how dating culture
1:36:49is much worse
1:36:51>> now.
1:36:51>> I hear this too.
1:36:53>> But
1:36:54>> then again, uh sample size isn't that
1:36:56great here.
1:36:57>> So I don't know because a lot of the
1:36:59same things apply in terms of like apps.
1:37:02Uh sure cultures vary. Yeah.
1:37:05>> But there are some constants in this
1:37:07picture. Um so in any research yours or
1:37:12others research about um homosexual
1:37:16dating and couples is there pessimism
1:37:19guys saying well guys these days and
1:37:21women saying in uh yeah lesbian women
1:37:25let's just you know for lack of a better
1:37:26term um saying
1:37:28>> women these days
1:37:29>> I don't think that's out there nearly to
1:37:32the same extent. I think some of the
1:37:35like interesting components that you see
1:37:38out there is look the apps I think did
1:37:41they did a lot of good in the world for
1:37:43people who you know just felt like their
1:37:46social networks had no options in them
1:37:48but especially for people who might have
1:37:51been living in places that were
1:37:52genuinely unsafe for gays and lesbians
1:37:55and might have helped them to find
1:37:57romantic partners. So like um I always
1:38:00want to be the first one to give the
1:38:02apps credit for that for providing those
1:38:04kinds of opportunities.
1:38:06Classically speaking, what you tend to
1:38:09see is that, you know, I've talked a
1:38:11little bit about the the time frame as
1:38:14people form relationships in the first
1:38:16place. And that sometimes we get locked
1:38:17into this idea that it's like, oh, it's
1:38:19going to happen in an instant and and
1:38:20now you're together. But the reality is
1:38:22it's often an elongated process. That
1:38:26process has tended historically to be
1:38:29even longer for folks who are gays and
1:38:32lesbians forming same gender
1:38:33relationships. And I think part of that
1:38:36is something that you you might even
1:38:38call like a bigotry tax because if you
1:38:42lived in a place where it was like
1:38:44vaguely dangerous to admit your same-sex
1:38:48attractions, you got to be really
1:38:51careful before you start disclosing how
1:38:55you feel about somebody because
1:38:56rejection doesn't just mean rejection.
1:38:58Rejection is maybe actually carries
1:39:00other threats and stigma and all of
1:39:02these other things with it.
1:39:03>> Loss of jobs. Exactly. We've seen
1:39:04examples of that like it's sort of again
1:39:07it plays on stereotypes but um I'm I'm
1:39:09going to assume some of it is true. Uh
1:39:11like in in Mad Men, right? There's a
1:39:14disclosure and then it doesn't go well.
1:39:16>> Right. Right.
1:39:17>> Yeah. It doesn't go well.
1:39:18>> I love the movie Call Me By Your Name.
1:39:20>> I don't think I've seen it.
1:39:22>> Yeah. It's it's it's about 10 years old.
1:39:23It's it's Luca Guadanino and and he's a
1:39:26fabulous director, but it's about two
1:39:29men who get together over the course of
1:39:30a summer. young men who find it's it's
1:39:33one of Timothy Shalamé's earlier movies
1:39:37>> and one of the things they come to
1:39:38regret is that like we didn't disclose
1:39:41our feelings sooner but it's it the
1:39:43movie was taking place in the 1980s so
1:39:46you had to be really careful with
1:39:50whether you were going to be upfront
1:39:51about how you were feeling about
1:39:53somebody. wasn't uh in a place where you
1:39:56can't be fully confident that you're
1:40:00have a sense of safety, it could be
1:40:02really dangerous. So that's an important
1:40:03difference that we see and I think the
1:40:04apps were really good at helping people
1:40:08to uh to come together in that sense. I
1:40:11have a question about um financial
1:40:14stability and level.
1:40:16>> Yeah,
1:40:17>> you mentioned there aren't real big
1:40:19gender differences there. Earlier we
1:40:21were saying scientists are always uh
1:40:23doing the opposite of improv. Instead of
1:40:24yes and they always say yeah but you
1:40:27know what yeah but what about it's it's
1:40:30a it's in our training
1:40:31>> income level on its own or amount of
1:40:34money that somebody has in my mind is
1:40:37somewhat informative.
1:40:39>> What's more informative is having the
1:40:42additional data point of where they
1:40:44started out. Oh, interesting.
1:40:45>> Because people with money who um didn't
1:40:49have to work very hard to get it,
1:40:51>> it's a different picture. Now, some
1:40:53people might say like, "Who cares?" And
1:40:55I will make the argument that some
1:40:56people some people who had to make a
1:40:58work very hard to make their money
1:41:00>> often times are still in the working
1:41:02hard mode. The the the the twist in the
1:41:05in the high level of income thing like
1:41:08that. The additional question that's
1:41:09useful is how much free time do you
1:41:10have?
1:41:11>> Yeah. A lot of the people I know who
1:41:13have a lot of money, they don't have a
1:41:14lot of free time. So, if people pair up
1:41:17with them thinking that they're going to
1:41:18feel very financially secure and have a
1:41:20lot of stuff, that might be true.
1:41:22>> But, um, how often they're going to see
1:41:24their partner or the the co-parent of
1:41:27their kids is an important question. And
1:41:28this extends both ways. like so many of
1:41:31these attributes that in the abstract
1:41:33sound really good to us, but then when
1:41:35you actually put it in a person that
1:41:37also has all these other attributes and
1:41:39things going on, you realize like, wait
1:41:40a minute, their cutthroat ambition
1:41:42actually wasn't that great, right?
1:41:44Because it means that they're never
1:41:46around. I think for this reason
1:41:49it can be very challenging especially if
1:41:51you're looking at long-term
1:41:52relationships to take things like like a
1:41:55person's um income level and use that to
1:41:58forecast like for example how their
1:42:01partner is going to feel about them. I
1:42:02mean, we've done some of this work,
1:42:04indeed some of the work looking at
1:42:05gender differences and like the reality
1:42:07is like a person's objective income, it
1:42:11has very very small effects on how their
1:42:14partners feel about them. The bigger
1:42:17effects are things like, you know, if
1:42:19now we scaffold up and look at like
1:42:22socioeconomic status. So, do you have
1:42:23the resources to get by as a couple?
1:42:26That can be very challenging for people.
1:42:29I've seen numerous examples of uh
1:42:32couples where the man loses his work
1:42:35>> and if he's not able to get stable work
1:42:38again reasonably soon.
1:42:40>> Yeah.
1:42:40>> In most of the
1:42:41>> this isn't a peer-reviewed study. Most
1:42:43of the examples I can think of um the
1:42:46couple eventually dissolved
1:42:48>> and it wasn't necessarily for a lack of
1:42:52enough resources. Families were able to
1:42:54help etc. Um and of course we could talk
1:42:56about depression. We [clears throat]
1:42:58could talk about some other thing that
1:43:00might have happened or many things that
1:43:01happened, but is there a sex difference
1:43:03there? The part that I find the most
1:43:05intuitive about these examples is that
1:43:08when a man loses his job like that, and
1:43:12I love that there are other resources
1:43:13around, so we know that that's not the
1:43:15exact problem. My guess is that the
1:43:18challenges are coming more from his like
1:43:22genuine troubling like loss of identity,
1:43:25loss of self. what am I going to do with
1:43:27myself? And less maybe not zero, but
1:43:31less about his uh partner thinking, oh,
1:43:36now he's no longer a provider. And
1:43:38that's just generally my bias from what
1:43:41I see in the science, which is when
1:43:43tragedies befall us, they affect our
1:43:46perceptions especially strongly. So this
1:43:48guy is going to feel this pretty hard
1:43:52that he's lost his job.
1:43:54Stepping back and looking at the broader
1:43:56picture of the data, it used to be true
1:44:00that marriages were more fragile when
1:44:03the woman earned more than the man in
1:44:06the marriage. But this stopped being
1:44:08true in the '9s. So that gender
1:44:11difference doesn't exist anymore. And I
1:44:14think it's it's easy to surmise. I don't
1:44:17know if the sociologists who studied
1:44:19this have drawn exactly this conclusion,
1:44:20but it's easy to posit that what's
1:44:22happening there is that people in
1:44:25general have gotten more comfortable
1:44:27with the gender imbalanced
1:44:28relationships. And in the '9s, we were
1:44:30still getting used to this idea.
1:44:33Um, today,
1:44:35even if the average couple, the man
1:44:37earns more than the woman, you do see
1:44:39that because there is a gender
1:44:40difference in the in income levels on
1:44:42average. But in education, it's flipped
1:44:45now, right? women, at least in younger
1:44:48couples, the woman is more likely to be
1:44:50educated than the man.
1:44:51>> More educated or or educated period.
1:44:53>> More educated than the man in the
1:44:55relationship, right? So, so women are
1:44:57earning more of the, you know, uh,
1:44:59higher degrees. So, if there's a
1:45:02mismatch, probably the woman has more
1:45:04education than the guy.
1:45:07That's not a risk factor
1:45:10relative to if they were the same level,
1:45:13relative to if, you know, he were
1:45:15higher. It just doesn't really seem to
1:45:18be doing anything. I know we can like
1:45:20get really nervous about like what does
1:45:21it mean for men's desiraability if
1:45:24they're not ambitious. Like I get that
1:45:27if men are not out there like making
1:45:29things of themselves, I'm not worried
1:45:31about the women getting a better
1:45:33education than them. I think it's
1:45:36important for men to have a sense of
1:45:37purpose. I think trade schools can be
1:45:40awesome, but the mismatches in the level
1:45:43of education and in the level of income,
1:45:46those don't spell a problem. We just got
1:45:48to get like men feeling good about
1:45:50themselves again.
1:45:51>> And the data say they're not.
1:45:53>> Yeah. I mean, I think that's what you
1:45:55see. I mean, the data that concern me
1:45:57the most are that men and I think
1:45:59especially low SCEs men, they're the
1:46:02ones that feel like their social
1:46:04networks are gone. They don't know where
1:46:06to go to get any kind of companionship.
1:46:09So, if they're really feeling that acute
1:46:12sense of loneliness, of lack of
1:46:14belonging, you know, among like real
1:46:16people in their lives, um that's the
1:46:20thing I worry about because then that's
1:46:21going to affect your sense of self.
1:46:22that's going to affect, you know, all of
1:46:24your ambitions and in really bad cases
1:46:28might, you know, push people to some of
1:46:29those nastier corners of the internet.
1:46:32I'd like to take a quick break and
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1:48:10in the kind of classic pure
1:48:12stereotypical narrative, you know, men
1:48:14who were slightly older
1:48:17had more resources.
1:48:19>> Yeah.
1:48:20>> This isn't always true.
1:48:22>> But there's this what apparently based
1:48:24on your work is a uh myth that women
1:48:28desire older men. Uh men desire younger
1:48:31women.
1:48:32>> Yeah.
1:48:32>> Your work points to the possibility that
1:48:35there is no gender differences in
1:48:37attraction to younger partners.
1:48:38>> Yeah. And look, let me say that this is
1:48:40I think one of the more tenant
1:48:42>> and it's a big and it's a big sample
1:48:43size 4000.
1:48:45>> I'm like so and uh I'll weave a quick
1:48:48anecdote. There's this guy at the gym
1:48:51that I sometimes go to.
1:48:53>> He's probably in his like 70s or
1:48:54something and he's in
1:48:55>> what great shape. He's retired. He made
1:48:58money. He's enjoying life. He's got
1:49:00grandkids. He's like he just seems like
1:49:02I don't know him that well, but it seems
1:49:03like he's really got it together and
1:49:04he's really loving life. And I always
1:49:06say, uh, what brings you here every day?
1:49:09You know, I figured it would be like,
1:49:10why it just feels so good. And he just
1:49:12always says the same thing. He always
1:49:13just says, I don't want to lose my wife
1:49:15to a younger guy. And I always laugh and
1:49:17I go,
1:49:18>> then like I know a lot about the contour
1:49:20of his life. And maybe there's something
1:49:22he's not disclosing, but you know,
1:49:24anyone would say like this guy's just
1:49:26totally got it made. He's in and he's,
1:49:28you know, I again I don't know the
1:49:29details of his life and I shouldn't, but
1:49:32I know enough about it that, you know,
1:49:34he's checked off all the boxes three or
1:49:36four times and then had the wisdom in my
1:49:38opinion to not just keep working like a
1:49:40maniac and just spend time with his kids
1:49:43and grandkids and his wife. But he
1:49:45always answers the exact same way. How's
1:49:46it going? He goes, "Pretty good. Just
1:49:47don't want to lose my wife to younger
1:49:49guys. So, I'm here again today."
1:49:50>> Let me tell you about this study. And
1:49:51look, again, I'm a scientist and
1:49:53sometimes the data I'm like, "Huh? You
1:49:56don't say. I didn't see this one coming.
1:49:59I mentioned this earlier. So, we
1:50:00partnered up with folks who do
1:50:03matchmaking. So, these are people who
1:50:06are paying for a service
1:50:09because they want to be in a long-term
1:50:11relationship.
1:50:12And so, they will set people on dates
1:50:15and they've got a whole pool that
1:50:16they're working with. And within that
1:50:18pool, the men who are searching for
1:50:20dates are older than the women by about
1:50:23four years on average. Okay? So that's
1:50:26that's what they've got to work with.
1:50:28And they set people up on these dates.
1:50:30And so most of the time the woman is
1:50:33going to be younger than the man, but
1:50:34there's a range. Sometimes the woman is
1:50:36much younger than the guy. And sometimes
1:50:38the woman is the same age as the guy.
1:50:40And sometimes the woman's even a little
1:50:41older than the guy. All right? So what
1:50:45you'd expect to see is that if men are
1:50:48looking for younger women and women are
1:50:50looking for older men, then when we look
1:50:53at how the age of the partner affects
1:50:56whether you want to go on a second date
1:50:57with this person,
1:51:00it should be the younger folks appeal to
1:51:02the men more and the older folks appeal
1:51:04to the women more. But that wasn't what
1:51:06we saw. We saw that the younger folks
1:51:07appeal to the men more. And by the way,
1:51:09it's not a huge effect. It's not like
1:51:12the gross stereotype that's out there.
1:51:14Men are a little bit more interested in
1:51:16the women to the extent that they're
1:51:17younger, but it's not gigantic. Women
1:51:19are doing the same thing. They're a
1:51:21little bit more interested in the
1:51:23younger guys. They don't say that on
1:51:26paper. In fact, sometimes they're like,
1:51:28"Don't set me up with the younger guys."
1:51:29And then they do and they say, "Huh,
1:51:31that was interesting. I enjoyed that. I
1:51:33enjoyed that date. I would like to see
1:51:35him again."
1:51:36>> Are the stated reasons um similar in any
1:51:39way? For instance, are both groups
1:51:40saying less less baggage? That would be
1:51:42kind of a cliche answer, but we could
1:51:44place that on either side.
1:51:45>> I don't know. And I would love to know.
1:51:48I think sometimes when women are when
1:51:50they downrate like whether they care
1:51:54about attractiveness or something. I I
1:51:57think sometimes they are like kidding
1:51:59themselves a little bit that they
1:52:01actually do appreciate a younger guy
1:52:04who's maybe is fit and in shape or they
1:52:06don't fully appreciate how exciting it
1:52:08would feel to be sitting across the
1:52:11table from a guy like that. I mean, this
1:52:12is my best uh my best guess. And what's
1:52:15so fascinating about this data set is
1:52:18that look, they're trying to create
1:52:19these couples, but you know, you only
1:52:22create a couple a fraction of the time.
1:52:24Much of the time the people don't really
1:52:26hit it off, but in the couples that get
1:52:29created, the guy was four years older
1:52:31than the woman. And in the couples that
1:52:32don't get created, the guy is four years
1:52:34older than the woman cuz that was what
1:52:36they had in the sample to begin with. So
1:52:39we look around and you see that age
1:52:42difference. That age difference is real.
1:52:44And I'm sure it means something
1:52:46important. And data like this just make
1:52:49me think something else is going on
1:52:51here. Whatever is creating this age
1:52:55difference, it's at least it's not, you
1:52:56know, a age difference in in how people
1:52:58sort, it's not happening on date one.
1:53:02It's not happening at the initial
1:53:03attraction phase. Maybe it's happening
1:53:06earlier who puts themselves in the pool.
1:53:08Maybe it's happening later. I don't
1:53:10know. She's going to date this younger
1:53:12guy like once or twice, but then she's
1:53:14going to be done with him and she'll,
1:53:15you know, settle down with somebody
1:53:17who's a little older.
1:53:18>> She said she's done with him.
1:53:19>> Yeah. Right. Exactly. Right. But Right.
1:53:21But it could go the other way, too.
1:53:22>> Well, what I've heard before, uh, cuz
1:53:24I'm 50, I have some, uh, female friends
1:53:26who are dating, and they'll say that
1:53:29they do date younger guys, but then the
1:53:31deal breaker is if the guy says he wants
1:53:35>> kids. Kids, that's tough.
1:53:36>> And then
1:53:38>> the So the agreement is to move on based
1:53:41on that. Often this is a common
1:53:43reasonably common thing. Yeah. Actually
1:53:45hear about this more and more these
1:53:47days.
1:53:47>> Yeah. And I think um one thing that that
1:53:51online dating affords is if you've got
1:53:54something like that that's exceptionally
1:53:56important to you, there are
1:53:58opportunities to filter on it. Um we
1:54:01haven't talked about this too much yet,
1:54:02but but you can get into a whole line of
1:54:06research and studies on, you know, oh,
1:54:08if people are filtering for things in
1:54:10the abstract, does that match what's
1:54:12ultimately going to appeal to them when
1:54:13they meet face to face? We find that
1:54:15generally speaking, these things tend to
1:54:17be pretty uncorrelated. So what people
1:54:19think they want doesn't match up with
1:54:22what they actually end up liking once
1:54:24they meet somebody face to face. But you
1:54:27can argue that sometimes that's not a
1:54:29good thing. If somebody really wants
1:54:30kids, shouldn't it be within their power
1:54:34to craft a pool of partners who also
1:54:37want kids to give them that opportunity?
1:54:39Like that seems like a reasonable
1:54:42humanistic thing to do. And so to the
1:54:44extent that the apps are able to do that
1:54:46or these services are able to do that, I
1:54:48think that's uh that's ultimately a good
1:54:50thing. I think
1:54:51>> click like want kids or not.
1:54:53>> Yeah, I think I think often I think I I
1:54:55think you can I in in some apps that
1:54:58might be like a special feature you have
1:54:59to pay for things. These things get
1:55:01complicated.
1:55:02>> Who knows if the news is accurate uh
1:55:04because it's not real data. It's sort of
1:55:05whatever the news decides to shine a
1:55:08light on. this idea that um more young
1:55:10people are going to church with which is
1:55:12a values plural uh indicator like
1:55:15>> you know people can most churches are
1:55:18open to whoever shows up but the
1:55:20assumption is that people are there uh
1:55:22for certain reasons that they're either
1:55:24trying to build on or or have certain
1:55:27values
1:55:28>> that are sort of family children uh
1:55:33>> values morals adjacent if not central
1:55:36right I think people know what I'm
1:55:37saying I mean sure bad people can show
1:55:38up at church, but but the idea is that
1:55:40somebody's taking the time uh to get
1:55:43dressed up on a Sunday morning and go
1:55:45and listen to someone else speak and a
1:55:47lot of people are meeting that way now.
1:55:49Are there any data that that's a
1:55:50response to the kind of like wild west
1:55:53of
1:55:54>> um of online dating and you know social
1:55:58media and and just the general culture
1:56:00of like everybody it's kind of the the
1:56:02culture of everybody. I mean even in
1:56:04high school there were subgroups. Some
1:56:06people moved between subgroups, but
1:56:08it's, you know, it the the vastness of
1:56:11the internet and social media,
1:56:14>> even if you state your preferences about
1:56:16what you do and don't want to see on
1:56:18social media is like it's a flood. I
1:56:20mean, I see people and things on there
1:56:21from way back when that like they're not
1:56:23bad people. I have no interest in what
1:56:25they're doing now. And then occasionally
1:56:26I see people I'm like, "Oh, no way." And
1:56:28reconnect. So, but it's a it's a fire
1:56:30hose.
1:56:30>> Yeah. And you need some way to reduce it
1:56:33to something manageable. I mean, again,
1:56:35we we evolved in an environment where we
1:56:38knew like 50 other people, you know,
1:56:40that's like your group. You you probably
1:56:41knew more than that. Maybe you know,
1:56:43like 150, some nearby groups, but that's
1:56:46all ages and all genders and everything
1:56:48else. It's a small number of potential
1:56:51partners for you, but you had reasons to
1:56:55interact, structures that were going to
1:56:57put you in contact with each other. And
1:56:59to the extent that church is fulfilling
1:57:01a function like that, I think that's
1:57:03great. And in fact, I think that's
1:57:05exactly what's missing. And if church
1:57:06isn't your thing, there's like a million
1:57:09other things that people can do in any
1:57:11kind of modern urban context that are
1:57:14going to be helpful along those lines. I
1:57:16mean, you can join any kind of inter
1:57:18mural sports team. I mean,
1:57:20>> improv class.
1:57:21>> Exactly. Yeah. So, I think the improv
1:57:24classes are amazing because not only is
1:57:27it a chance to interact in a group over
1:57:30a a period of time where you don't get
1:57:33to opt out if you don't love somebody
1:57:35right away, but also you're like
1:57:37practicing being [laughter] vulnerable
1:57:40and in, you know, being responsive and
1:57:42things like that. So, I think these
1:57:44things are all wonderful. Are people
1:57:46doing it because they're trying to limit
1:57:48the pools to the folks that they think
1:57:50will fit what they're looking for? I'll
1:57:53bet you some people are doing that. I'll
1:57:56bet that, you know, if somebody's like,
1:57:58I really want to be with somebody else
1:58:00who's active, so I'm going to join a
1:58:02running club. Or, yeah, I want to be
1:58:04with somebody who shares my value, so
1:58:05I'm going to join church. I think that's
1:58:07great. If I'm like being buzzill
1:58:10scientist,
1:58:12I'd probably sit here and be like, it
1:58:14probably actually doesn't matter. Like,
1:58:16join the church, join the running club,
1:58:18join all these things. Like, you're
1:58:20probably know more or less likely to
1:58:22find somebody that you're going to click
1:58:24with.
1:58:25>> It's more about getting yourself in a
1:58:26small group environment.
1:58:27>> Exactly. Exactly. But I'll be the first
1:58:29to say like when it comes to like the
1:58:31base rates of these things, like if your
1:58:34if your goal was, you know, in 90 days I
1:58:37want to be in a relationship, what are
1:58:39the things I should do that give me the
1:58:41best likelihood? I'm embarrassed to say
1:58:43my field can't answer that question. I
1:58:45can't tell you, you know, use two apps
1:58:48and use these two apps and go to church.
1:58:50Don't join kickball cuz they're a mess.
1:58:52I was a kickball player, so I'm allowed
1:58:54to say that. Uh but you should join the
1:58:56running club. We can't answer questions
1:58:59like that. So, in the absence of that
1:59:02kind of specificity, my answer is always
1:59:04just be around people on repeated
1:59:07occasions.
1:59:08>> I'm not trying to provide push back
1:59:09here. I'm not qualified to do it. I'm
1:59:11going to I'm from a totally different
1:59:12field. But I feel like there's certain
1:59:15small group smallish group environments
1:59:17like church. But there there could be
1:59:18other examples like for instance like a
1:59:20hiking club or rock climbing or
1:59:22something like that where
1:59:24>> there's kind of a um this shouldn't be
1:59:26the reason uh people do it and the only
1:59:28reason people do it but let's say um
1:59:30people pair up as a consequence of time
1:59:32there
1:59:33>> that the culture of that thing provides
1:59:36additional opportunities to uh grow the
1:59:39relationship with peers right because
1:59:41there certain things like you join an
1:59:42improv class great like big my sister's
1:59:44really into drama and theater still does
1:59:46theater classes for her own her own
1:59:48enrichment. But like but if you meet
1:59:49someone there, it's not like the the the
1:59:51culture around it um sort of cultivates
1:59:53the evolution of the relationship. Like
1:59:55whereas in like church like you might
1:59:57even get married in that church in the
1:59:59context of a of a hiking club, like you
2:00:01might be out with the other couples that
2:00:03you meet or or single people that you
2:00:05meet for many years. Like you can sort
2:00:07of it's it's a community that that can
2:00:09grow over time. certain things here I'm
2:00:11showing my ignorance around improv
2:00:13classes but certain things like a
2:00:15pottery class or pickle ball or
2:00:16something like
2:00:17>> it doesn't just at face value present a
2:00:21sort of trajectory of like
2:00:22>> that's right
2:00:23>> I'm sounding really nerdy here but kind
2:00:24of like a a set of maturational stages
2:00:27that it that you can continue to like be
2:00:29in the relationship there does that make
2:00:32sense really stumbling for the words
2:00:33here no totally this by the way is a
2:00:35great reason to not meet people at work
2:00:39>> not meet people at work. I'm not trying
2:00:40to like throw a cold blanket on people
2:00:42who decide to meet people at work, but
2:00:44often times often times that the
2:00:46relationship doesn't necessarily
2:00:48flourish in the context of the work
2:00:50environment. It's not like the work
2:00:51environment makes the relationship grow.
2:00:53I've seen more things split over time if
2:00:55both people work there. Often times they
2:00:56have to move to separate buildings,
2:00:58>> right?
2:00:58>> Um just for a variety of reasons, but
2:01:01it's not like the culture encourages it.
2:01:03Whereas there are certain things that
2:01:04are a bit more since you were talking
2:01:07for a moment there like an evolutionary
2:01:08biologist like we evolved in small
2:01:09villages and small groups where
2:01:11>> you know you had peers and elders that
2:01:13that provide this positive reinforcement
2:01:15on relationship. You know it's kind of
2:01:17an interesting thing like no matter how
2:01:19evolved we are or progressive we are.
2:01:23>> I don't know many women that ask men to
2:01:24marry them
2:01:25>> in 2026. I'm sure they're out there, but
2:01:28it's still the
2:01:30>> tacid assumption that men are going to
2:01:32do the asking.
2:01:33>> Yeah.
2:01:34>> Just saying.
2:01:35>> Okay. So, how progressive are we really?
2:01:37Right. It's also true that when people
2:01:40get married, most of the time they stand
2:01:42up in front of other people and state
2:01:44their vows. This is not like, you know,
2:01:47uh, you know, under the bed sheets, I
2:01:49promise. I promise I This is like a
2:01:50public disclosure. These days it ends up
2:01:53on Instagram,
2:01:54>> you know. So, you know, there's clearly
2:01:57a feedback that comes from being part of
2:02:00a larger structure that reinforces
2:02:03relationships over time.
2:02:05>> Yeah. And it can be a big
2:02:06>> You promised, you didn't just promise to
2:02:07me, you promised to the whole world,
2:02:09>> right?
2:02:10>> And that can be an important source of
2:02:11support, too, because then it's that at
2:02:14least the subjective sense like these
2:02:16people have our backs, right? if we run
2:02:19into hard times,
2:02:21>> there's a community that's going to be
2:02:23there and support us.
2:02:25>> And then I think you're right on the
2:02:27initial attraction side, having a sense
2:02:30that we're part of this larger
2:02:33collective that there's something about
2:02:35that that that feels good and provides
2:02:37structure that like that can help keep
2:02:40moving things forward. And you're right
2:02:42that the workplace context is
2:02:44particularly tricky because many
2:02:46workplaces don't want to encourage that
2:02:50kind of thing. And it's going to often
2:02:51happen anyway. And probably the smartest
2:02:54workplaces are the ones that allow for
2:02:55the possibility that peers are going to
2:02:57get together and have structures in
2:02:59place that that will be able to keep the
2:03:02personal life appropriately personal and
2:03:04then you know deal with the fallout if
2:03:05the if the fallout happens. One place I
2:03:08trained might have been UC Davis. All
2:03:10the junior faculty of which there were
2:03:12many of them when I first joined there
2:03:13were a large fraction of couples in the
2:03:17department or who had spouses in other
2:03:19departments
2:03:21>> I think more than 80% of those couples
2:03:23ended up divorced now wow
2:03:25>> now we can't there are a lot of
2:03:27variables there fortunately most of them
2:03:28are on good terms um I can't say they
2:03:31ended up with other people in the
2:03:32department that didn't happen
2:03:34>> but you know I watched and was like whoa
2:03:37like this is interesting uh you know
2:03:39this didn't I want to say didn't end
2:03:41well cuz I think they're all happy now
2:03:43but there does seem to be some
2:03:45additional stress uh of that. So I mean
2:03:48this gets to a question you've actually
2:03:49studied which is this notion of um
2:03:52>> similarity.
2:03:53>> So maybe we should talk more about that
2:03:54because it's more data driven uh
2:03:56question which is perceived similarity
2:03:59matters more than actual similarity.
2:04:02What is perceived similarity? So
2:04:04perceived similarity is this general
2:04:07sense like we have a lot in common.
2:04:09There are a million things that we could
2:04:11talk about. We share the same values and
2:04:15attitudes and preferences about things
2:04:17in general. But notice the way I'm
2:04:20describing it. I'm not tethering it to
2:04:22any particular attitude or value or
2:04:25preference or anything else because it's
2:04:27so free floating. I as the perceiver get
2:04:31to attach it to whatever I want and that
2:04:36uh affords people to have a certain
2:04:39amount of motivated reasoning so that
2:04:41when they like somebody a lot they will
2:04:44find the similarities there. They will
2:04:48really come to think that what really
2:04:50matters is that we love Japanese cinema
2:04:53and that we you know that we share the
2:04:56same politics. Whereas for another
2:04:57couple, uh, you know what, we have
2:04:59different politics, but that doesn't
2:05:01really matter to us.
2:05:02>> Does anyone say that nowadays?
2:05:03>> No, people still do. I mean, look, we
2:05:05what you see in the political matching
2:05:07data is that the odds that people ofo,
2:05:11you know, diametrically opposed
2:05:13preferences, the odds they're going to
2:05:14get together in the first place are
2:05:15very, very low. But among the mismatches
2:05:19that do exist, it actually doesn't
2:05:21predict satisfaction all that much. And
2:05:23I think this is why because you just
2:05:25compartmentalize it. If we match, it's
2:05:27important. If we don't match, oh, who
2:05:30cares? Does anybody care about that?
2:05:31Right? So much motivated reasoning. So,
2:05:35this is why if what I wanted to do was
2:05:39take two people who had never met and
2:05:41assess everything I could about them and
2:05:43then figure out whether they were going
2:05:45to be a match or not, ba based on
2:05:47whether they were similar, I really was
2:05:50probably going to be no better than a
2:05:51coin flip at figuring out whether or not
2:05:54they were going to click. That's actual
2:05:56similarity. I take things that are true
2:05:58about you without the ability for you to
2:06:01engage in motivated reasoning and I say,
2:06:03"Okay, you're an 83% match on all the
2:06:07things I could assess. You two should
2:06:09like each other." When we've done
2:06:10studies like that, you you basically get
2:06:13a coin flip every time. Well, this is
2:06:15why the apps seem totally useless
2:06:17because if you were just pair up, well,
2:06:19you want this and you want this, I want
2:06:20that, too, and I want that, too. You're
2:06:22telling me that it's as good as chance.
2:06:24It's as good as chance. And look, if
2:06:26there's evidence for similarity on
2:06:28anything, it could be in the realm of
2:06:31like demographics,
2:06:33socioeconomic status kinds of things. I
2:06:36I've seen like unpublished data, but
2:06:39promising, but even then, those effects
2:06:41are so small. So, I'm, you know, we're
2:06:43going from a 50/50 coin flip to like
2:06:465347. These are small effects across the
2:06:49board because we get all of this
2:06:52motivational latitude. When we really
2:06:54like somebody, we find the things we
2:06:56have in common. We focus on those. We
2:06:59convince ourselves those are the most
2:07:00important things in the world. And the
2:07:02thing is, who am I to criticize them
2:07:03because the people in the happiest
2:07:05relationships, that's what they're
2:07:06doing. They're exhibiting those kinds of
2:07:09biases. And it's like stupid human
2:07:12tricks, but it like kind of works.
2:07:14>> You want to hear something really scary?
2:07:16>> Yeah. Uh, you probably know this
2:07:17already, but I was shocked. Uh, let's
2:07:19just say someone I know who would know
2:07:22um told me that the biggest dating app
2:07:27in the world by an enormous margin is
2:07:30>> it's not Tinder,
2:07:31>> Instagram.
2:07:33>> Oh,
2:07:34>> and this was actually very much in
2:07:37parallel
2:07:38>> to the the algorithm favoring
2:07:42communication by direct message. People
2:07:45will say like social media isn't social
2:07:47anymore. It's not about like seeing what
2:07:48people are doing. The real dynamics, the
2:07:52real time spent, and you'll notice how
2:07:55you get rewarded and what gets served up
2:07:57in the algorithm. Rewarded meaning like
2:07:59what what posts do better than others.
2:08:02>> If there's a strong correlate to
2:08:04communication about that through direct
2:08:06message, it's a dating app that's kind
2:08:09of cloaked for many people as a social
2:08:12media app. But of course, I use it to
2:08:13teach neuroscience, right? And and other
2:08:15things. And this will be on Instagram.
2:08:17So, I mean, I'm a big fan of of
2:08:19Instagram and other social media
2:08:20platforms for teaching and learning. And
2:08:21I say that sincerely, but the majority
2:08:24of the time spent now is not scrolling.
2:08:28It's it's getting to communications that
2:08:32move to real world and then feed back
2:08:35>> Yeah.
2:08:35>> to social media. So, I found that um
2:08:37interesting. So, I'm imagining a
2:08:39question uh because you study questions
2:08:42people ask them on dates. And we used to
2:08:43be able to say,
2:08:44>> if you were on a deserted island,
2:08:47>> who would you want to be there with?
2:08:48Like, who's the one person that you
2:08:49could stand being with or perhaps even
2:08:51really enjoy being with, assuming you
2:08:54have all the resources?
2:08:55>> Now, I think the question should be,
2:08:57>> who's the one person that would get you
2:08:59to not engage with anyone else in in the
2:09:02world? In other words, set down what you
2:09:04called, and I've never heard this
2:09:06before, the derivation of alternatives.
2:09:09>> This is an interesting term. So, in some
2:09:11ways, like committed partnership is
2:09:14about setting aside the idea that there
2:09:16might be somebody better for us.
2:09:18>> And I would argue, again, I have strong
2:09:22positive feelings towards Instagram. Um,
2:09:25I really do. Uh, it's a a fun and great
2:09:28platform when used in, you know,
2:09:29moderation. Yeah. But it's the opposite
2:09:32of the deserted island. And a former
2:09:34guest on this podcast who happens to be
2:09:35a divorce lawyer, um, James Ston, has
2:09:38talked about the fact that many, many,
2:09:39many of the divorces that he um,
2:09:42>> litigates, no, that he that he's
2:09:45involved in. Yeah. That he helps resolve
2:09:47uh, win for his clients started with uh,
2:09:51a
2:09:52>> innocuous communication on his starts
2:09:55with a like. starts with a like, starts
2:09:57with a conversation, starts with a ends
2:09:59up in the corner of a grievance or a or
2:10:01a a commonality that's sensed and then
2:10:04the derivation of alternatives emerges
2:10:07and eventually the relationship
2:10:08dissolves.
2:10:09>> We think about how people handle
2:10:10alternative partners. If you're in a
2:10:12purportedly monogous relationship, this
2:10:14is a challenge that relationships are
2:10:16going to face and
2:10:19I sort of see these like twin streams
2:10:21happening at the same time. So
2:10:25what you see in general is that for
2:10:28people who are in relationships and
2:10:30especially if they are happy in that
2:10:32relationship,
2:10:34any alternative partner that you can
2:10:36throw at them,
2:10:38they will tend to think that that
2:10:40alternative partner is pretty weak
2:10:43sauce. They think that person is less
2:10:46desirable than any other metric you
2:10:48might want to come up with for how
2:10:50desirable that person actually is.
2:10:52That's what we mean by deriggation of
2:10:53alternatives. It's like they're coming
2:10:55in up here, but because I'm partnered
2:10:58with you and I'm happy with you, I see
2:10:59them as less desirable than they
2:11:01actually are. Side note, that's why this
2:11:04one of the reasons why the marketplace
2:11:06metaphor starts to break down because
2:11:09people actually start to become bad
2:11:11barometers of what is quote unquote
2:11:13good. You stop seeing this alternative's
2:11:16actual value because you're so happy
2:11:18with the person that you have. Okay. So,
2:11:21this is a good thing and this is a real
2:11:23defense mechanism that people have.
2:11:25>> Is it a defense mechanism or I mean, but
2:11:28it's protective of healthy monogous
2:11:31relationship.
2:11:31>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean it in the
2:11:33best Yeah. You know what? That's so
2:11:35funny because in our jargon we say
2:11:37defense mechanism. I mean that in the
2:11:39best possible mechanism.
2:11:40>> Yeah. Protective mechanism. Right. Yeah.
2:11:42You're defending the relationship.
2:11:43That's so funny. I'd like forgotten.
2:11:45>> We've had a few too many uh
2:11:46psychologist. Right. Of course. that has
2:11:49a negative connotation for some people,
2:11:50not for me. Okay? So, it's a protective
2:11:52mechanism, but at the same time, people
2:11:55also do this thing that you might call
2:11:58like playing with fire, but it's more
2:12:00like, you know, playing with what really
2:12:02seems to be a harmless book of matches.
2:12:05And I just I'm just messaging these
2:12:07people. Well, what's the big deal? This
2:12:08isn't going to go anywhere. Uh I'm just,
2:12:11you know, we're we're we're chatting a
2:12:14little bit. This isn't going to go
2:12:15anywhere. And things escalate. Sorry to
2:12:17interrupt, but um and you know, one of
2:12:20uh
2:12:21>> our former guests on this podcast who's
2:12:22immensely popular in the dating
2:12:25relationships and romance sphere is
2:12:26Esther Prell, and I don't want to put
2:12:28words in her mouth, but I think the
2:12:30perception about some of her messaging,
2:12:32whether accurate or not, is that there
2:12:35can be some value to, you know, in in
2:12:37her first book, I think, and I haven't
2:12:39read it, but um the the excerpt that was
2:12:42uh relayed to me was this notion like,
2:12:44oh, like someone isn't feeling as much
2:12:46chemistry in a relationship. So, like
2:12:47the woman, this wouldn't happen nowadays
2:12:49most likely, but goes to a bar and like
2:12:51flirts a bit and then like some some
2:12:53sense of of um sexual confidence is
2:12:56restored and then her husband is then
2:12:58attracted to her differently again. And
2:13:00you know, I've heard the more crude
2:13:01phrase, doesn't matter where you get
2:13:02your appetite as long as you eat at
2:13:04home. This is more of the 1950s60s
2:13:06variety. By the way, none of these
2:13:08statements come from me, although my
2:13:10mouth is saying them. These are things
2:13:11that you hear out there, right?
2:13:13>> Yeah.
2:13:14directly uh in opposition to what you're
2:13:17saying, which is not to say that what
2:13:19you're saying is wrong. I just think
2:13:21that there was a there was about a 20 or
2:13:2330 year period there where people kind
2:13:26of assumed that monogamy could thrive.
2:13:28>> Yeah.
2:13:29>> Despite the inputs and monogamy could
2:13:32thrive perhaps even better if people
2:13:34acknowledge this aspect of self that is
2:13:37still attracted other people. They talk
2:13:38about it. what you're talking about is
2:13:40really a more of a protective cloak
2:13:42around the commitment. I do sense people
2:13:45are veering back toward that what you're
2:13:48describing. You know how I think about
2:13:49it is is the protective cloak
2:13:52um that that's sort of there as a
2:13:54baseline but then signals will get
2:13:57through some sometimes sometimes cuz
2:13:59you're messing around on Instagram but
2:14:01sometimes because you went to the bar
2:14:03with your friends and there was this
2:14:05cute guy who was chatting you up and the
2:14:08evidence there too I interpret I think
2:14:11the way a stair would interpret it and
2:14:13and what you see in the data also
2:14:16suggests something like a protect ive
2:14:18mechanism again it's playing with fire
2:14:21but if you look in studies where they
2:14:23ask people have a sexual fantasy about
2:14:26your partner now how much sexual desire
2:14:28do you feel for your partner it has gone
2:14:30up great that's pretty straightforward
2:14:33now please have a sexual fantasy about I
2:14:36don't know whoever's in second place
2:14:39that's not your partner
2:14:41then you start having sexual feelings
2:14:43for that person and you start having
2:14:46sexual feelings for your partner at the
2:14:47same time. So, it's exactly the metaphor
2:14:50that you're describing that when we feel
2:14:53a sense of attraction, it can rebound
2:14:55onto our partner. And by the way, it
2:14:57doesn't happen in the reverse. Okay. So,
2:14:59the partner, your current partner,
2:15:02again, for most people in happy
2:15:03relationships, holds a special position,
2:15:06you might say, where even when there is
2:15:09a little bit of a threat, and I've
2:15:10noticed somebody, it it rebounds
2:15:13somewhat. I don't advise that people go
2:15:15out and do this. You're saying it
2:15:18rebounds like it's a it's a fuel for the
2:15:20relationship the way that Esther and
2:15:22other people have talked about that's a
2:15:23real thing.
2:15:23>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. I mean it
2:15:26recent studies I can point to one or
2:15:28two. They're all like within the last
2:15:29few years.
2:15:30>> This is going to be very uncomfortable
2:15:32for some people to hear that their
2:15:34partner may come home immensely
2:15:36attracted to them because they had some
2:15:37sort of interaction during the day of
2:15:39either being attracted to someone or
2:15:42receiving signals of attractiveness.
2:15:43Right. Where I am a thousand% with with
2:15:46Estair is that the danger, the problem
2:15:49is not that your partner was sexually
2:15:51attracted to somebody else. The problem
2:15:54is usually in the escalation. It's yeah,
2:15:57but now are they like repeatedly hanging
2:15:59out with them and having like a
2:16:00conversations that they feel secretive
2:16:02about or that you know if if it's you
2:16:04that you feel secretive about? Those are
2:16:07the warning signs because then what will
2:16:09start to happen is that the protective
2:16:11layer that people typically put around
2:16:12their partners, it will start to erode
2:16:15and that's when people are at a greater
2:16:17risk of infidelity. It's usually a
2:16:20process like that. The simple fact that
2:16:23we can be attracted to other people that
2:16:25is not a problem for the average
2:16:27relationship. It's the repeated follow
2:16:30through on that attraction that becomes
2:16:32a problem. And that's something that
2:16:33evolved in recent years that there used
2:16:35to be far more transient interactions
2:16:38that would never resurface again. You
2:16:40sit next to someone on a plane, you'd
2:16:41have a conversation. Uh there might be
2:16:43attraction, there might not be, but you
2:16:45develop some degree of intimacy. Some
2:16:46people would disclose a lot on planes
2:16:49and then you never hear or talk to them
2:16:51again. Nowadays, there's almost always
2:16:53an opportunity for people to follow up
2:16:55and connect with people. That's what
2:16:57James Ston is referring to. Yeah. when
2:16:59he talks about social media being a um
2:17:02an uh borrowing other person's language
2:17:05here an attack vector, you know, on a
2:17:08relationship and maybe that is a good
2:17:09reason for people who are in committed
2:17:11relationships to just get off of social
2:17:13media period. But it's also a context
2:17:15where people spend quote unquote spend
2:17:18time with people for other reasons.
2:17:20>> Yeah, it's tricky. Uh if if I I don't
2:17:24recommend using that sort of process to
2:17:26bolster your relationship. I guess if
2:17:28you're going to do it, you know, try to
2:17:29do it by watching somebody. Um, yeah.
2:17:32Who's uh Yeah. figure out if you're a
2:17:36man who's with a woman, just ask her
2:17:38like what actor does she have the hots
2:17:40for and like be kind enough to watch a
2:17:42movie featuring him. Like maybe that's
2:17:44that's a way to make this work.
2:17:46>> Or the reverse. Yeah, sure.
2:17:48>> Some of the um what appear to be the
2:17:50strongest and happiest couples that I
2:17:52know, I know very little about their
2:17:54dynamics, period.
2:17:56>> Yeah. which is kind of an interesting
2:17:57thing in its own right, but some of the
2:17:59people that are in that set seem to have
2:18:02a pretty uh relaxed
2:18:04>> rapport around, oh yeah, uh so and so
2:18:08referring to their spouse really likes
2:18:09that actor or actress. Like it's like
2:18:11it's just kind of a thing that they
2:18:12understand, but it's over there,
2:18:14>> right? It's it's at a distance. Yeah.
2:18:17It's not um it's not like a looming
2:18:19threat.
2:18:20>> It's very different if it's about
2:18:21somebody that you both like know and
2:18:23spend time with. It's much more
2:18:26threatening in those cases. And and I
2:18:28think that also is part of why that
2:18:30deraggation process happens is because
2:18:33that threat feels very uncomfortable.
2:18:36Like even if it's your attraction, like
2:18:39you kind of want to downplay it because
2:18:42the thought of what would it mean if I'm
2:18:45like with the wrong person or like what
2:18:47would happen if this thing spiraled out
2:18:49of control, it it's upsetting for most
2:18:51people. I mean, we take all this time to
2:18:54build a relationship up to be this thing
2:18:58that we really value that's a central
2:19:00part of our lives. The thought that like
2:19:03it could disappear at a moment's notice
2:19:05because of of a a mistake that we would
2:19:07make, it it can be threatening to most
2:19:10people. E even if we're imagining
2:19:12ourselves
2:19:13engaging in the actions that would bring
2:19:15things to an end.
2:19:17I heard a really scary story that may or
2:19:20may not be informative.
2:19:22>> I think it is and maybe you can help me
2:19:25understand it. Anytime someone starts a
2:19:26story with I have a friend, it gets a a
2:19:29little [laughter]
2:19:30weird, but based on an observation I had
2:19:32a long time ago
2:19:33>> where I was going to a gym and I had a
2:19:37tr truly just platonic friendship with
2:19:39this woman. uh she would go to the gym
2:19:40too. Back then, not a lot of women
2:19:42worked out in gyms if I'm honest. Like
2:19:43like it was like not a lot of women
2:19:45lifted weights. It was like something
2:19:46that was kind of reserved for guys or
2:19:47for female bodybuilders, but she wasn't
2:19:49a bodybuilder, but she she liked lifting
2:19:51weights and super fit. She's a super
2:19:53accomplished athlete now.
2:19:55>> She um one day when we were leaving, she
2:19:58was like really upset. I was like,
2:20:00"What's up?" And she's like, "All these
2:20:03guys kept coming up to me." And I'm
2:20:04like, "Well, that's happening all the
2:20:06[clears throat] time." you know, she's
2:20:07like, "No, they were all really
2:20:09unattractive."
2:20:11And I said, "Okay, well, you're good at
2:20:14dealing with you." Like, she was very
2:20:15skilled. She's very beautiful then and
2:20:17now, and so very skilled at like saying,
2:20:20"Thanks, but no thanks."
2:20:22>> And then she said something that was
2:20:23absolutely like shocking to me that I've
2:20:26shared with other female friends and
2:20:28some men and they always go, "No way."
2:20:30And she said, "I feel like I have to go
2:20:34like flirt with a really attractive guy
2:20:36now."
2:20:37>> Wow.
2:20:37>> And it was clear that despite being
2:20:40incredibly attractive, incredibly
2:20:41accomplished
2:20:43and s athlete,
2:20:45>> was questioning her own value, this is
2:20:49very evo evolutionary biology, because
2:20:51the guys that were approaching her were
2:20:53in her mind very quote unquote low
2:20:56value, unattractive. Ah,
2:20:57>> it it like got to her, you know. Of
2:20:59course, my interpretation was, "Okay,
2:21:01guys, the next time a really attractive
2:21:03woman walks up to you and seems like
2:21:05she's chatting you up,
2:21:06>> you don't know that it's actually about
2:21:08you, you know, you know, like just know
2:21:10that it may not be about you." Like,
2:21:12like note to self. And what's wild is
2:21:15that years later I observed and talked
2:21:19to someone in a basically same dynamic,
2:21:22>> but she's married and she said, "Yeah,
2:21:25if a bunch of people hit people always
2:21:27hit on this this other woman, too."
2:21:28She's like, "If they do that,
2:21:31>> I sort of feel like I have to go kind of
2:21:33um get a clear perception again of
2:21:35whether or not I could be with an
2:21:37attractive guy." And now granted, she's
2:21:39married to a super successful, what
2:21:42anyone, male or female, would describe
2:21:44as super good-look guy,
2:21:46>> and they have a super stable family. And
2:21:47I thought to myself,
2:21:49>> "Oh my god." And I don't know that this
2:21:51is unique to women. I don't know. But
2:21:53it's kind of weird if you think about
2:21:55it. Now, it could be their unique
2:21:57insecurity, but it's like if data start
2:21:59coming in,
2:22:01>> let's flip it. date. If a lot of really
2:22:03attractive people of the opposite sex
2:22:05start talking to you, whoever's
2:22:07listening to this
2:22:08>> that you perhaps start to wonder if
2:22:11something
2:22:12>> important is going on there. There's
2:22:14information there. I just would like you
2:22:15to reflect on this. I've been perplexed
2:22:17by it for a long time. In some sense, it
2:22:19makes total sense,
2:22:20>> but as a scientist, I've learned, yeah,
2:22:22but
2:22:23>> just like like what's really going on
2:22:25here? I think the part of the story
2:22:28that's the most headscratching is that
2:22:31they're in relationships. So shouldn't
2:22:34they
2:22:35>> in the second case?
2:22:35>> Yeah. In the second case. So shouldn't
2:22:38they be getting the feedback
2:22:40that's positive on a regular basis?
2:22:43Anyway, let's for the sake of argument
2:22:45just assume that she was. So she was
2:22:48getting positive feedback at home and
2:22:50yet the experience of having less
2:22:53appealing men come up to her led her to
2:22:56feel like I need to do something to
2:22:57reaffirm my
2:22:58>> I think it was a question am I losing it
2:23:00was the was kind of the language that
2:23:01came up am I losing it whatever it was
2:23:04>> one of the reasons that scientifically I
2:23:07am out here like questioning the
2:23:10usefulness of the made value construct
2:23:13is because I know that people of quote
2:23:15unquote low value can have absolutely
2:23:17fantastic relationships and people of
2:23:19quote unquote high value can have
2:23:21absolutely terrible relationship.
2:23:23>> I observed that many many times. Sure.
2:23:25>> There you go. So that happens all the
2:23:28time.
2:23:29I think one of the strongest uh most uh
2:23:33like resonant things that made value
2:23:36does for us or the way that we
2:23:37experience it most acutely is indeed in
2:23:41the attention we get from strangers and
2:23:43or the junior high type scenarios that
2:23:46we talked about. So that we do have a
2:23:50level of attractiveness and it changes
2:23:52as we age. There is a consensus out
2:23:55there about how desirable we are. And
2:23:58that consensus is not going to stay
2:24:00exactly where it is. It's going to
2:24:01shift. And you might be in a
2:24:02relationship and be very happy with the
2:24:04person who unambiguously
2:24:07thinks you're a 10. And yet still
2:24:09wonder, what does everybody else think?
2:24:11Like do they think I'm a seven? Do they
2:24:13think I'm a four? What has happened to
2:24:15me? So I totally get that. That
2:24:18experience of how am I coming across to
2:24:21the world? Is it less than I thought it
2:24:23was? And that the only great information
2:24:26that you have is how strangers respond
2:24:28to you. It's sort of a funny way of
2:24:31flipping all of this stuff around
2:24:33because again, as a relationships
2:24:35researcher, my bias is always your
2:24:39husband thinks you're a 10. You think
2:24:41he's a 10. You won the lottery. Like
2:24:43that's it. You did it. But I
2:24:46acknowledge, yeah, there can be cases
2:24:48where we still wonder about what
2:24:51strangers think of us and it might
2:24:53matter to our sense of selfworth and
2:24:55sense of who we are. So, so I'm not
2:24:57going to judge it, but it is a
2:24:59fascinating flip of the way I typically
2:25:01think about these things.
2:25:02>> It makes me wonder whether that our um
2:25:06>> notions of self and this goes back to
2:25:07the what we were talking about before
2:25:08the Esther Prell thing and
2:25:10attractiveness that sort of boomerangs
2:25:11back into the relationship. something
2:25:13that's going to be uncomfortable for a
2:25:14lot of people to to hear, but at at some
2:25:18level all of it makes me wonder whether
2:25:20um there's a healthy
2:25:21compartmentalization
2:25:23>> that
2:25:25>> we could adopt as as a society. Which is
2:25:28not to say like anyone can be attracted
2:25:30to anyone and therefore commitment isn't
2:25:32real.
2:25:33>> Nor is it saying like okay when you're
2:25:34in a committed relationship it's it's a
2:25:36complete black box. Right. Right.
2:25:38Because there is this thing called the
2:25:40internet and there's this thing called
2:25:41the human psyche and you study it and
2:25:43around these issues. But maybe it's if
2:25:46people understood that those are two
2:25:47different things.
2:25:49>> Yeah.
2:25:49>> Sometimes we refer to it like as the
2:25:51shiny object,
2:25:52>> but that that's a an aspect of self or
2:25:55it's an aspect of of wanting that's not
2:25:58it's not not real. It's real, but that
2:26:03maybe there's a way to compartmentalize
2:26:05it so that it's has the potential to be
2:26:07toxic to relationship. Yeah.
2:26:08>> But acknowledging that it's real, that
2:26:10it's part of our wiring
2:26:13>> might diffuse some of its power.
2:26:15>> Like I said, some of these couples that
2:26:16are like, "Oh, yeah." Like, what's the
2:26:18the phrase couples have where they're
2:26:19like, "Oh, you get a it's like a hall
2:26:21pass."
2:26:21>> Oh, yeah.
2:26:22>> Which is never going to happen, right?
2:26:23She's like, you know, so and so, you
2:26:25know, my wife gets a hall my I get a
2:26:27hall pass with cuz basically it's never
2:26:28going to happen, right? So, it's not
2:26:30really a hall pass. It's a it's a it's a
2:26:32hall pass that uh exists in this
2:26:34alternate universe where um the other
2:26:36person could actually sleep with
2:26:38someone.
2:26:39>> Be careful with the hall notion because
2:26:41I don't know where that could lead. I'm
2:26:42not suggesting
2:26:44>> not a protocol I suggest. Not a protocol
2:26:46I suggest.
2:26:48>> But um it's kind of interesting because
2:26:50uh the parallel that comes to mind is
2:26:53you know if you're in Los Angeles long
2:26:54enough you get to know some people who
2:26:56are actors. Yeah. And from time to time,
2:26:58you'll run into somebody, male or
2:27:00female, who is who was a spectacular
2:27:02actor, had an amazing run on a comedy
2:27:05series or movies, and they're no longer
2:27:08working. And it is a
2:27:11>> biodal distribution. People who are
2:27:14happy and content and focusing on their
2:27:15life and can see that was the younger,
2:27:18more attractive,
2:27:21>> working,
2:27:22funny, sexy, whatever. And this is men
2:27:27and women versus the like tortured
2:27:31I'm not getting work, the work is not as
2:27:34good as it used to be. I mean there it's
2:27:36like and I've seen this with people who
2:27:37had uh fame young for other reasons in
2:27:40sports and things like that and they are
2:27:42crushed.
2:27:43>> And so what you want to say is like just
2:27:46realize that you have this awesome
2:27:49aspect of self that doesn't live in you
2:27:51right now anymore, but it's still you.
2:27:53Like you got that.
2:27:54>> Yeah. You know, I think there's a
2:27:56similarity here. Like if people just be
2:27:57like, I've got everything I need and I'm
2:28:00good because yeah, that other stuff
2:28:01exists and I feel good about it. Not
2:28:03like I'm gonna pretend it doesn't exist.
2:28:04Seems like they could be a very
2:28:05functional way to move through life for
2:28:07people who have this insecurity. I
2:28:10totally agree. And in fact, I'll even go
2:28:12a step further, which is to say, I try.
2:28:16I don't always succeed, but I try to
2:28:18think this way about relationships that
2:28:21have come and gone, too. Because I think
2:28:25there's a real tendency I mean I was
2:28:28going to say in our culture but it might
2:28:30be a lot of cultures to see like past
2:28:34relationships that have ended and I'll
2:28:36even put divorces in this category to
2:28:38look back and say I failed. And I think
2:28:42people reinforce this even
2:28:43unintentionally. You know you you go
2:28:46through a breakup a dating breakup and
2:28:48people say I'm so sorry. I know what
2:28:50that's like. come over and have some ice
2:28:52cream. You go through a divorce and
2:28:54people say, "Well, what happened?"
2:28:56Because they're trying to make sure that
2:28:58it doesn't happen to them because
2:29:00they're interpreting it as a failure.
2:29:03And boy, I think if we give each other a
2:29:05little bit of grace and see it all as,
2:29:08yeah, that was a thing that happened. It
2:29:10was real. It mattered in that moment.
2:29:14Things happened along the way. It it it
2:29:16didn't work out. I changed. You changed.
2:29:18like being able to accept that like all
2:29:21of those things are real and have or had
2:29:25value. You know, I'd love to try to
2:29:28encourage people to do that. I know like
2:29:30there's so many people out there right
2:29:31now who are like, "Yeah, but my ex is a
2:29:33dick." And I I'm with you. I totally get
2:29:37that. And to the extent that there's any
2:29:40ability to hold these two thoughts in
2:29:42mind simultaneously, I think it's good.
2:29:45>> My girlfriend and I have a rule. We
2:29:46don't have many rules. One of the rules
2:29:48is we don't talk negatively about anyone
2:29:50else that we've ever been with.
2:29:52>> We we
2:29:54were very comfortable with the fact that
2:29:55we've had previous relationships because
2:29:57early on we realize that like in the end
2:30:00like that's all about our choices. So
2:30:02it's kind of a crazy argument. Um and uh
2:30:06and she said something beautiful. She
2:30:07said like I'm grateful to all the good
2:30:09and bad things that you've had to
2:30:11experience regardless of you know and I
2:30:13said the same to her because the
2:30:15relationship is great and we bring that
2:30:17>> and I do think it was built on the
2:30:19trials and tribulations and great things
2:30:21you know now I'm careful to not ask too
2:30:23many questions and she's careful to ask
2:30:25not ask too many we we actually have um
2:30:27uh selective uh ignorance around around
2:30:30certain we just like I don't care like I
2:30:33genuinely don't
2:30:34>> go down certain lines of inquiry and she
2:30:36doesn't either. And I think it's great.
2:30:38>> I think it's great. I think it's uh it
2:30:40sets up like a you're the we're here
2:30:42now. This is time move from now forward
2:30:44and where it goes we determine that. But
2:30:47but histories are real
2:30:48>> and I have always admired I have a few
2:30:50friends that um paired up
2:30:53>> very early and they went through all
2:30:54these developmental milestones together,
2:30:56first jobs, some even graduate college
2:30:59as couples, kids, you know, all this
2:31:01stuff. And there's something really
2:31:03beautiful about people that you you have
2:31:06a long developmental trajectory to big
2:31:09milestones that they reach together.
2:31:10Nowadays, people are pairing up later.
2:31:12They're getting divorced and remarrying.
2:31:14It's harder to build a common narrative,
2:31:16>> right?
2:31:16>> Is there any data about common narrative
2:31:20good or bad like we went through a lot
2:31:23can be building as well. Is time
2:31:25together a factor? Like when you control
2:31:28for everything else, is duration of
2:31:30relationship
2:31:31an indicator of sort of quality and
2:31:35satisfaction of relationship?
2:31:36>> So if we're looking strictly at
2:31:39relationship duration,
2:31:42honestly, on average, it tends to be a
2:31:46bad sign. In other words, wait a second.
2:31:49Staying together is bad.
2:31:50>> Yeah. No, no, it just means that like
2:31:52that over time people were the happiest
2:31:55early on in their relationship than they
2:31:58are today. Right. It actually kind of a
2:32:01bummer. Um
2:32:02>> can you just break up and get back
2:32:03together a bunch?
2:32:03>> Yeah. Right. Okay.
2:32:04>> We don't study that. We should um that
2:32:07might have some problems volunteering.
2:32:09>> Yeah. But let me say this. the the
2:32:11narrative,
2:32:13right? The idea that we experienced a
2:32:16lot, that we grew, that we faced all
2:32:18these obstacles, that is huge. So, it's
2:32:21so so literal time is not the best
2:32:25metric to capture, I think, the essence
2:32:28of what you're getting at. It's a sense
2:32:30that like we were in this together and
2:32:31that we had a shared story. This is also
2:32:34why breakups are so hard because not
2:32:38only are you often losing a source of
2:32:41support, perhaps for men it might be
2:32:43more likely to be their only source of
2:32:45support. Not only um do you have to face
2:32:49the possibility of getting back out
2:32:51there, but you're also losing the
2:32:54continuity with yourself. you're losing
2:32:57the stories and the narratives that
2:32:59you've built with this other person and
2:33:01all of those memories and all of those
2:33:03components.
2:33:04>> Well, I think that's why it can feel
2:33:06like a failure because there's this
2:33:09understandable and I think very
2:33:10desirable wish that the
2:33:13>> it's like a novel. It's going to have a
2:33:14beginning, a middle, and an end
2:33:16>> and the end is death.
2:33:18>> Like we're going to till death do us
2:33:19part. That is written into the script,
2:33:21right? And so I think if it ends early,
2:33:23I think a lot of people don't know how
2:33:25to integrate it into their life story.
2:33:27>> Yeah.
2:33:28>> The evolutionary biology part, which
2:33:30seems very real to me,
2:33:31>> is that all we have is time and energy.
2:33:35Yeah.
2:33:35>> And when we invest,
2:33:38>> time is running. There's no doover,
2:33:40right?
2:33:41>> You know, there's [laughter] no doover.
2:33:42So I think that people carry a lot of
2:33:44resent about the time lost.
2:33:46>> Yeah. and and the energy and the
2:33:47investments that you put into it. But
2:33:49and I think I think it's useful to think
2:33:52about those investments as being about
2:33:54like self and story
2:33:58and that to the extent that you can use
2:34:02it as an opportunity to like whether
2:34:05it's like reinvent or recreate or you
2:34:07know you preserve some of the parts of
2:34:08yourself from the prior relationship but
2:34:10maybe not all the prior parts of
2:34:12yourself. there are some things that
2:34:13you'd rather let go. To the extent that
2:34:16you can hold on to the good parts of the
2:34:19story, the parts that you want to
2:34:21remember, that you want to keep, it' be
2:34:22so painful when you're going through the
2:34:24breakup in the first place that I think
2:34:26a lot of times people just want to like
2:34:27take all of it, put it in a box, and get
2:34:29rid of it. Definitely throw away the
2:34:31photos at some point.
2:34:32>> Yeah. Yeah. Although, although now
2:34:34everything's, you know, in the cloud,
2:34:36it's very, very challenging.
2:34:38Hypothalamus versus forebrain. Does the
2:34:41good primitive stuff,
2:34:43>> meaning,
2:34:44>> yep,
2:34:44>> sexual attractiveness, outweigh the
2:34:47ability to think about how great someone
2:34:49is? Ideally, there's both.
2:34:51>> Yeah.
2:34:51>> But the good lover beats stated
2:34:54preferences model.
2:34:56>> Yeah.
2:34:56>> Is something that,
2:34:57>> okay,
2:34:58>> you've talked about before. In other
2:35:00words, is the real glue in a long-term
2:35:04relationship
2:35:06some form of physical intimacy that in
2:35:09or put differently, can we think and
2:35:11talk our way perhaps to ourselves?
2:35:14>> Yeah.
2:35:15>> Forward through a relationship that
2:35:17doesn't have that physical intimacy.
2:35:19Usually, you will see that things like
2:35:21sexual satisfaction or sexual desire for
2:35:23your partner are going to be pretty
2:35:26tightly related to how you feel about
2:35:29the relationship in general. It's an
2:35:33important component. I wouldn't say it's
2:35:35an essential component or even the
2:35:38central component for many people, but
2:35:41for other people it certainly can be.
2:35:44And I again I do believe in the church
2:35:48of Esther Pel which is that there are
2:35:51ways of recultivating
2:35:53sexual feelings about somebody that
2:35:55actually our sexual feelings about
2:35:56somebody. It's not like a switch where
2:35:59it's just on or it's off and we know
2:36:01just when we look at them that sometimes
2:36:03it's about the things we're talking
2:36:05about the time we spend together or the
2:36:07time that we spend apart and that that
2:36:10can be rekindling in various ways. So I
2:36:12think the key thing for me is not to
2:36:16engage in fatalism about the sexual
2:36:21desire component. That when like the
2:36:23when the passion fades in a
2:36:26relationship,
2:36:27that doesn't mean that it's gone
2:36:29forever. It might not be something that
2:36:32you feel like every day at 7:00 p.m.
2:36:35anymore. It might be the kind of thing
2:36:38that that comes to the four in certain
2:36:40circumstances or when you're not totally
2:36:43exhausted.
2:36:44I think that's okay. And a lot of
2:36:46relationships can absolutely thrive
2:36:49under those circumstances. And you can
2:36:51push it to extremes, too, where it's
2:36:53like, "My partner hasn't been sexually
2:36:55attracted to me in, you know, years and
2:36:58years." Like, that's going to be tough.
2:37:00And part of the reason that's tough is
2:37:02because you don't have the sexual
2:37:03intimacy. But also part of the reason
2:37:04it's tough is cuz it's making me feel
2:37:06terrible about myself. So these things
2:37:09all like cascade in various negative
2:37:11ways, but I think they can also be be
2:37:14helped in ways too that you know that
2:37:16engage some of these more, you know, the
2:37:19parts of our brains that at least we're
2:37:20more uh aware of and and have some
2:37:23agency over.
2:37:25>> So is it true that sexual attractiveness
2:37:28that rating the person's uh a person
2:37:30rating their partner as a quote unquote
2:37:32good lover is
2:37:34among the strongest predictors of how
2:37:36positively they feel about their partner
2:37:39because that's that I I really
2:37:40appreciate your answer, but I I want to
2:37:42make sure that if that's true, that
2:37:44comes comes through because what I'm
2:37:46hearing is yes, it can those feelings
2:37:49can uh wax and wayne and yes, life
2:37:51circumstances and raising kids and job
2:37:53and stress. Yes. Yes. And yes, I think
2:37:56uh everyone including me acknowledges
2:37:57that. But this idea that it's not
2:38:01important after a certain stage or that
2:38:04a really healthy romantic relationship
2:38:06can exist without that. What I'm hearing
2:38:08is the data
2:38:10>> point in the other direction.
2:38:10>> No, that is absolutely correct. the the
2:38:13subjective sense that and that's exactly
2:38:15the wording that we use the subjective
2:38:18sense that like this person that I am
2:38:21with or or this person that in that
2:38:24study we have people who are in
2:38:25relationships but we also have people
2:38:27who are reporting on like just folks
2:38:29that they're initially attracted to. But
2:38:31in both it actually doesn't really
2:38:33matter. In both cases, feeling like this
2:38:36person is a good lover or likely to be a
2:38:39good lover in the case of the attraction
2:38:40scenarios is a very very good sign for
2:38:44how [clears throat] positively you feel
2:38:46about the relationship in general and
2:38:48whether you want the relationship to
2:38:50continue it. But again, it's that it's
2:38:52that subjective sense and that's that's
2:38:54kind of where I'm getting to this
2:38:56component of like if if I start to feel
2:39:00like you're not a great lover, like
2:39:02that's going to rebound. So that then
2:39:03you don't feel desirable and it's going
2:39:05to sort of cascade in all of these
2:39:07negative ways.
2:39:08>> All seems to converge on it's an
2:39:10important feature of romantic
2:39:11relationships to cultivate protect from
2:39:15you know Yeah. And you describe some to
2:39:17me surprising um
2:39:20>> you know I I I think for some reason it
2:39:22it makes total sense and yet it's
2:39:23surprising that this kind of energy from
2:39:25the outside can
2:39:27>> provide positive support to the
2:39:28relationship. Um, but [clears throat]
2:39:30Esther said it, excuse me, has said it
2:39:32and others have said it. So,
2:39:35>> very interesting. Final question. Sounds
2:39:37like a game show. Final question.
2:39:39[laughter] Um,
2:39:40>> billion dollar question.
2:39:41>> Your course on this topic and related
2:39:43topics is incredibly popular for obvious
2:39:46reasons. It's super interesting topic. I
2:39:48mean at at the end of the day like our
2:39:50species evolved through these dynamics
2:39:52you know it it wasn't all like you know
2:39:55club the the lion you know gather food
2:39:58make it was there was a lot of dynamics
2:40:00I always chuckle when people say like
2:40:02you know stress is a holdover from when
2:40:04we were being hunted by saber-tooth type
2:40:07no that's complete like nonsense it was
2:40:10also there for when your spouse went
2:40:13hunting for the day or gathering and you
2:40:15didn't know if they were going to come
2:40:16back or they came back after sundown
2:40:17when normally They're there at sundown
2:40:18and it's for when your baby was sick.
2:40:19Like this notion that like stress was
2:40:21only about pation. Like so it's just so
2:40:24stupid. I'd like to uh have words with
2:40:26whoever came up with that. It's so dumb.
2:40:28It makes no it's not true.
2:40:30>> What are the questions that students are
2:40:33asking most often nowadays? Because I
2:40:36realize that as a, you know, 50-year-old
2:40:38male, uh, I suffer from a number of
2:40:40different delusions about relationships
2:40:43as it is for people in their 20s.
2:40:47uh 30s now. Um and maybe for everybody
2:40:52because we're all in our own experience.
2:40:54But I think even though the college
2:40:56classroom is not a perfect sample by any
2:40:58stretch presumably there a lot of
2:41:00different people in there.
2:41:01>> Yeah.
2:41:02>> Men, women, right? Some are most are
2:41:05probably straight, some are gay on
2:41:06average 2%. Like you're going to get a
2:41:08lot of questions. What are the big
2:41:09questions that that people seem to want
2:41:11answered that
2:41:14you're just hearing over and over again
2:41:16that are both in the direction of like
2:41:19this is a challenge but also like what's
2:41:21going right out there? Is anything going
2:41:23right?
2:41:23>> I think most of the questions are about
2:41:27like like there is often an assumption
2:41:29that like
2:41:31>> yeah but these days
2:41:34it's so screwed up like that's what
2:41:36they're saying.
2:41:36>> Yeah. like the I mean you just have this
2:41:39undercurrent. It's almost like and I
2:41:41worry about this sometimes that when I
2:41:43teach the science on these topics
2:41:46there's a general sense of okay but that
2:41:48this is science from the before times
2:41:50like what like today
2:41:53when the the apps have have controlled
2:41:56everything and like nobody goes out
2:41:58anymore like what are we supposed to do
2:42:02and sometimes I fall back on the well
2:42:07look like these these groups and things
2:42:09like we were talking about these clubs.
2:42:11They're still out there. You can still
2:42:12get out there and meet people.
2:42:14>> Activities.
2:42:14>> Yeah. Activities like through these
2:42:16avenues. They tend to work pretty well.
2:42:19And at the same time, I have to
2:42:21acknowledge that the generations are
2:42:23going to change and these folks
2:42:26experiences will be different than the
2:42:29experiences that my generation had. So I
2:42:33think in many ways this ends up being
2:42:35the challenge to like to convey the
2:42:38science to folks but also do it in a way
2:42:40that shows that you're being responsive
2:42:42and aware of the fact that any
2:42:44generation feels like but things have
2:42:46changed now and sometimes it takes a
2:42:48while to know like what has really
2:42:50changed. I do think that these students
2:42:53go out less often. I think they drink
2:42:55less often. I think they are they aren't
2:42:58spending time socializing in the same
2:43:00way and they're interfacing more with
2:43:01technology that's probably helping some
2:43:04people and it's probably really making
2:43:06it hard for some other people and so um
2:43:09you know I try to like live the example
2:43:12of hey like I spent time hanging out
2:43:14with people in groups and it was hard
2:43:16and I got rejected and you know my high
2:43:18school girlfriend dumped me but I ended
2:43:20up doing okay and um I hope that other
2:43:24people can like resonate with that
2:43:26message in my glasses.
2:43:27>> Love it. And I'm also hearing um perhaps
2:43:31don't just sign up for something, but be
2:43:33the person who organizes it.
2:43:34>> Yeah. Yeah. I love this. I love this.
2:43:36>> Like you can throw a picnic or a party
2:43:39and uh
2:43:40>> when I was a graduate student at Davis,
2:43:42uh I often didn't make it cuz I was in
2:43:44lab, but um every Friday there was a
2:43:47pickup beach volleyball game.
2:43:49>> Oh, that's fantastic. And then people
2:43:50would go to uh there was a Thai
2:43:53restaurant that was that was also a bar.
2:43:56>> That night sometimes ended the next
2:43:58morning. There was a tattoo shop right
2:44:00across the street that closed called
2:44:01American Graffiti.
2:44:02>> Oh yeah.
2:44:03>> Yeah. That some people got tattoos.
2:44:06Do not recommend and definitely don't
2:44:08get tattooed drunk. Probably don't even
2:44:10get Do what you want. But um [laughter]
2:44:12but but it was every Friday and there
2:44:14was only one rule which is that you had
2:44:17to at least attempt to do the kind of
2:44:20like bump set approach to beach
2:44:23volleyball. You couldn't just hit it
2:44:24across [laughter]
2:44:25>> and it didn't matter how bad you were,
2:44:28you know,
2:44:29>> you had to do the three
2:44:30>> and then everyone would go Thai food.
2:44:32>> Some people would have
2:44:34>> drinks if they drank. Somebody would
2:44:35have a lot of drinks they definitely
2:44:36drank.
2:44:37>> It's just a really cool thing. Anyone
2:44:39could come.
2:44:39>> Yeah. Things like that happened a lot
2:44:42and it took like zero planning. It was
2:44:44an email that basically just went out
2:44:46and no one person was in charge. It was
2:44:48just kind of in the collective. Yeah.
2:44:50>> They did uh like cooking competition
2:44:52things where
2:44:54>> you'd meet at someone's house and
2:44:55everyone would have to bring like a
2:44:57particular dish and then everyone would
2:44:58try them. And I had no time in graduate
2:45:01school. I was working all the time. I
2:45:02would make time for these things
2:45:03occasionally and they were a lot of fun.
2:45:05Like these things are super easy to do.
2:45:07Yeah,
2:45:07>> you don't have to have any real athletic
2:45:09ability or cooking ability, trust me.
2:45:11Um, it I just feel like there's so much
2:45:14opportunity for that, but the barrier
2:45:17must be really there for people if
2:45:19they're not doing these things cuz I
2:45:21think it was just reflexive.
2:45:22>> Technology
2:45:24has a pull.
2:45:26>> Um, and we can say it's the phones. Um,
2:45:30but we could also say that it's whatever
2:45:32is on your TV. I mean, there's lots of
2:45:34reasons these days for people to stay in
2:45:37that just weren't there 20 to 30 years
2:45:40ago. I'd hope that the message would
2:45:43resonate like you know gang like like
2:45:46these whether it's the entertainment
2:45:49companies or the apps they're they're
2:45:51trying to keep you away from real
2:45:54socialization. Young people, don't you
2:45:56like rebelling and stuff? Rebel against
2:45:58this, you know. Exactly. Like form these
2:46:01groups. go out and meet people again in
2:46:03person. I think it's coming back.
2:46:06>> I I really do. I I think the pand I
2:46:08think it's like it was like a long
2:46:10pandemic hangover where we we just kind
2:46:13of forgot this part of our social
2:46:16architecture, but but it's coming back.
2:46:18It it didn't go anywhere. We're still
2:46:20social creatures and we also have these
2:46:23great frontal loes. And even if you
2:46:24don't feel like going out and
2:46:26interacting with people, you can kind of
2:46:28nudge yourself to do it. Um, and I I
2:46:30think uh I think that's pretty
2:46:32fantastic. Thank you so much for the
2:46:34work you do. It's very brave. It's very
2:46:37brave because it runs right up against
2:46:39some long-standing theories of which I,
2:46:42you know, I I still think very highly of
2:46:44of a good fraction of the evolutionary
2:46:46biology and psychology literature. I now
2:46:49have to filter it through these new
2:46:51findings. Um, but you've created your
2:46:54own new field basically. uh which is of
2:46:57course why your book which we'll provide
2:46:59a link to um and your work is is so
2:47:02popular and and it I love the optimism
2:47:04that it shines into every interaction.
2:47:06I'm sure people picked up on that that
2:47:08you're not a doom and gloom guy, you're
2:47:10a solutions guy. Really appreciate your
2:47:13time here. Um many people will thank you
2:47:16both those in relationship. you learn
2:47:18some things to, you know, armor your
2:47:20relationship, understand your
2:47:22relationship better yourself, and uh and
2:47:24for those who are who are seeking
2:47:26partners or who are just observing the
2:47:28world around them and are content where
2:47:29they're at, um they're going to benefit.
2:47:31So, thank you so much. Really appreciate
2:47:33you.
2:47:33>> Thank you so much for having me.
2:47:36>> Thank you for joining me for today's
2:47:37discussion with Dr. Paul Eastwick. To
2:47:39learn more about his work and to find a
2:47:41link to his book, Bonded by Evolution:
2:47:43The New Science of Love and Connection,
2:47:45please see the links in the show notes
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