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Sanjiv Goenka On Billionaires, The Next Big Opportunities & Building Wealth | FO553 Raj Shamani — Transcript

by Raj Shamani · 17,917 words · 3,108 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00One of the biggest questions almost
0:02everybody searches on internet. How do
0:05billionaires see opportunities before
0:08anyone else?
0:09>> It's simply because you have access to
0:11data ahead of others. Say when I took
0:13the power business, Kolkata was reeling
0:16under 14 15 hours of power cuts every
0:19day and so to me if you could solve this
0:22problem there was an opportunity.
0:25>> How much revenue does it do today? We
0:27our assets there are about 40,000
0:29crores.
0:30>> 10 crores to 40,000 cr.
0:32>> Yeah.
0:33>> Dr. Sanjie Goena, chairman of the RPSG
0:36group. In this episode, he shares
0:38powerful insights, lessons and
0:40fascinating stories from his
0:41entrepreneurial journey that can help
0:43you build and scale your business.
0:47Tell me ideas today [music] which you
0:49feel are going to become something big.
0:51Renewable energy in every sense of the
0:53word. Solar, wind combined with battery
0:57storage I think is a great great avenue.
1:00I do believe data centers is a very big
1:03opportunity and you see all the biggies
1:05getting into data centers.
1:07>> Coming to your family now the business
1:09is running in the family since 220 years
1:12and it's only expanding and getting
1:14bigger and bigger. You're seventh
1:15generation right? There must be some
1:17core value which runs in your family.
1:19What is that? So one is reinvent
1:22yourself. You get into industries that
1:25are promising as opposed to industries
1:28that are sunset and be dispassionate
1:30about divestments. The second thing was
1:33that you be fair in your dealings
1:40and basically just being compassionate.
1:43So people who work with you not only
1:46root [music] for you but they pray for
1:48you. Tell me the story of how did you
1:51acquire Sarajama?
1:53>> Sarajama was acquired by my father. He
1:55was a very great friend of Baskar. He
1:58told him
2:04he told him
2:08dad said okay. That's how the deal got
2:10done.
2:12literally a group.
2:15>> Does it bother you when people hate you
2:17or accuse you of something or troll you?
2:20What is your source of information right
2:22now? Like what do you read every day?
2:24Where do you get your information from?
2:30I have a small favor to ask you. I need
2:33you to subscribe to our channel. The
2:35more subscribers we have, the better and
2:37bigger guests we can bring and provide
2:39you more value through these
2:41conversations. And also the full audio
2:44experience of the show is available on
2:46Spotify where you can follow us and
2:48stream and listen to all our episodes
2:55as a business leader. Okay. One of the
2:58biggest questions which
3:01almost everybody searches on internet.
3:04Okay, which is fascinating to me. It's a
3:07it's a it's a very noob naive question
3:10but it is what it is.
3:13How do billionaires or like large
3:16industrialist and business leaders see
3:18opportunities before anyone else?
3:22>> It's simply because you have access to
3:24data ahead of others.
3:27you're you're meeting people at a
3:31certain level.
3:32You're in touch with consultants with uh
3:36with the Mckenzies of the world and the
3:38BCGs of the world and so you're getting
3:41ideas
3:43>> and then you have your own experience
3:46and so not every idea sounds good, not
3:48every idea is doable,
3:51>> not every idea is meant for you.
3:53>> Mhm.
3:54But because you have access to that data
3:56and information before others
4:00uh it helps.
4:03>> What is your source of information right
4:05now? Like what do you read every day?
4:07Where do you get your information from?
4:09At least the ones you can tell which
4:11everybody can access.
4:12>> You know it's generally about actually
4:14reading things
4:17on areas that interest you.
4:18>> Okay.
4:19>> So you can you can take social media to
4:21read it. You can use a claude to get
4:24data. You can I mean you can do
4:26whatever.
4:27>> But if you can keep getting data on
4:30things that interest you,
4:33something somewhere
4:36will sound more promising to you as a
4:39business proposition
4:41and then you get a McKenzie or a BCG to
4:45actually validate whether it makes sense
4:47or not. Hm.
4:49So out of all the ideas, hundreds of
4:52ideas you're getting, information,
4:54people you're meeting, right? They're
4:56they're telling you thousands of ideas,
4:58right?
4:59Tell me top three ideas today which you
5:03feel are going to become something big
5:06whoever if somebody decides to build in
5:09build a business in that area. renewable
5:12energy in every sense of the word,
5:15>> solar, wind, hybrid.
5:20The prime minister has now I mean it's
5:24remarkable to see the brilliance of
5:26Modi.
5:28Uh he's floated this idea of floating
5:33solar panels.
5:36So you're not consuming land area to do
5:38this. M
5:40>> so you're going to do it on water.
5:44>> Anything to do with renewable energy I
5:47think is a huge opportunity.
5:49>> The energy requirements of the country
5:51are enormous
5:53>> and thermal will take you up to a point.
5:57So this whole thing of renewable energy
6:00combined with battery
6:03storage
6:05I think is is a great great avenue.
6:08>> Okay. Yeah.
6:09>> And the whole whole
6:11thing the whole proposition that goes
6:13into it, solar cells, solar modules,
6:17>> everything
6:18>> each one of those would would
6:20individually be very good propositions.
6:22So it's like say 30 40 years ago
6:28start
6:30there's an whole ecosystem that
6:32developed in Guram for all the
6:35components that went into a car.
6:37>> Yeah. Yeah. So this is the same thing
6:38for renewable. It's not only about just
6:41generation of electricity. It's about
6:43the whole thing of the the paraphernalia
6:46that goes into building a solar plant or
6:50a wind plant
6:52everything.
6:53>> Okay. Is there any specific thing in the
6:57renewable which you see right now where
7:00India doesn't have a capacity or
7:01capability to do because you're in
7:03energy business so you understand this
7:05right? that one is building these large
7:10solar plants, right, where people are
7:12going to just generate electricity. But
7:15then other is do we need junction boxes?
7:17Do we need modules? Do we need storage?
7:20Do we need batteries? Like somehow what
7:22is that one thing if you can be very
7:24specific? Is there anything that you
7:26know?
7:27>> You know I think at the end of the day
7:28you need more capacity on everything.
7:30Mhm.
7:31>> So
7:33you start with transformers,
7:35you start with turbines.
7:37>> Mhm.
7:38>> You get on to uh the actual panels, the
7:42modules, the sales.
7:45Then you get on to battery.
7:48>> I think that whole area
7:52I mean we have the capability but we are
7:55not scaled up to the extent that we will
7:57be in a few years.
7:58>> Okay. So I think getting to scale is
8:01very important
8:02>> in any of this and you feel
8:03opportunities in everything
8:04>> in everywhere in every every of this.
8:07Then this whole thing about
8:09battery.
8:10>> Mhm.
8:11>> You know it's not only about battery
8:12storage where you can store power for a
8:15few hours.
8:16>> Mhm. And uh but it's about battery per
8:20se and that in itself is just such a
8:24huge opportunity
8:26and whether it's lithium whether it's
8:28non- lithium I mean technology is
8:31changing every day and how do you get
8:34into things into components into
8:36chemicals that go into the back battery
8:40>> okay
8:40>> and that speed up charging that retain
8:45or enable retention ion of the charge
8:47for a longer period.
8:49Uh so I think all this this whole range
8:54of products is nent. We are developing
8:58we still have to develop.
9:01>> I mean renewable energy yes but in
9:04batteries I think a lot more needs to be
9:06done
9:07>> is being done.
9:08>> Okay. Yeah.
9:09>> So that's one second opportunity.
9:11>> This is two actually. Battery is one
9:13renewable is uh is the other.
9:16I do believe uh I mean data centers is a
9:21very big opportunity and you see all the
9:24biggies getting into data centers and
9:27the amount of data crunching that
9:30Indians are doing and will do in the
9:33future
9:34and the world will do and can India
9:37become the hub for data centers
9:40everywhere. So that's another very big
9:43opportunity but I think that scale is so
9:46large that barring an Amani and Adani I
9:49think uh not many Indian players will be
9:52getting into it.
9:53>> Yeah that's what like so tell me an
9:54opportunity which young entrepreneurs
9:56can get in because this is beyond
9:59people's means at this point.
10:02>> You get unicorns several unicorns every
10:04year. I mean uh
10:07but I frankly whereas I admire them I
10:10applaud them.
10:13I do not understand this concept of
10:18keeping on incurring losses
10:22and yes if it's a finite plan for 2
10:25years 3 years four years I can
10:26understand it but you get higher
10:29valuations and you take
10:32more equity to fund the losses but at
10:34some stage you have to get into profits
10:36right
10:37>> so you cannot always drive the business
10:40purely on valuations
10:43At some stage it has to be self
10:46sustaining and selfgenerating.
10:50So
10:52there are lots of ideas and there are
10:53lots of thoughts and lots of unicorns
10:55and people are doing brilliantly
10:59but you don't want yet another by juice
11:02>> m
11:04>> you know uh so I think one has to be
11:07careful enthusiasm is very good
11:12enterprise is very good entrepreneurship
11:15is very good
11:17but temperate it with reality or
11:20realism.
11:22>> It can't be just valuations.
11:25>> It can be valuations to start off with
11:28and you can use that as a means to
11:30finance it. And this is a great great
11:33gift of this government to
11:37Indian entrepreneurship that capital is
11:39available for any good idea today.
11:43So uh
11:45urban clab does brilliantly with
11:48electricians mass this that what a
11:51concept but
11:54they've built a model which is working
11:57and working profitably.
11:59So I think at the end of the day within
12:02a finite period you need to have a plan
12:04that gets to profits.
12:06>> Yeah. Do you see any idea right now
12:08which can get to which excites you which
12:11any young entrepreneur somewhere is
12:13doing? Maybe not at scale but you just
12:15understand and you're like there is
12:17something in it
12:18>> you know we are
12:21we are looking at Ayurveda inspired
12:25pharmaceutical
12:26>> interesting
12:27>> in a in a very big way. We we've we've
12:30launched very small without
12:36Sharaba without hype, without marketing
12:39yet. We've done clinical trials for
12:41these products.
12:44So they are Ayurveda inspired
12:48but they are completely herbal stroke
12:51flower based. So no chemicals, no this,
12:54no that. So we are launching we've
12:58launched
12:59uh
13:05>> we've modified those into infusions. So
13:08made it modern
13:11with centuries of experience of what is
13:16curing what
13:17>> but making it easy to consume
13:21and a modern version. A shiito paladi
13:27coming in a toffee form
13:31so kids will not be averse to consuming
13:33it.
13:35So
13:38it's sleep drops
13:40>> m
13:41>> which are based on flowers
13:43>> and I consume them and they are very
13:46effective. So there are lots of these
13:48things and this is one example. It
13:51doesn't consume a lot of capital.
13:53>> Yeah.
13:54>> Yes. A lot of research, a lot of
13:55patience
13:57but once you get the product right then
14:00you can start scaling up. So Ayurveda
14:03you'll think you think there's a big
14:05opportunity right now.
14:06>> I think there is a very big opportunity
14:07>> globally or just India
14:09>> in India and across the world. But what
14:12we have to do for the world is the world
14:15will look at documented data
14:19>> and sadly we as a country have not
14:22documented the success of Ayurveda.
14:25>> True.
14:26>> So we'll have to go through that process
14:28of clinical trials.
14:30>> That's a long one. It's a long one but
14:32if we don't start then we'll never get
14:34there.
14:35>> True. So with 360 or you're getting with
14:38Dr. Vya.
14:39>> So 360 is the modern thing. Dr. Vya is
14:43the conventional one.
14:44>> But through both you're getting
14:46[laughter]
14:47okay. You know you I was reading about
14:50you and one thing which
14:53not many people know and I found
14:55fascinating and I thought that is how
14:58I'll take the conversation forward
15:00today. was I was reading that there are
15:02a lot of articles and lot of people who
15:05called your father takeover king
15:09right and then there was another piece
15:12which I was reading that you are the
15:14transformation king like why and then I
15:18I went in deep and tried to understand
15:20that that why is that and then I was
15:23looking at the carbon business the
15:26electricity business then the s gama so
15:28I want to go each business by business,
15:31story by story and I want to understand
15:33but before I go there you have
15:36repeatedly just taken
15:38businesses which people wrote off like
15:41they you know other people called it
15:43that it's a bad business you should not
15:45go it it's in debt it's it's almost
15:47dying you have taken those businesses
15:49you have turned around them what do you
15:52see that other people don't see
15:54>> I don't know what other people don't see
15:57I know what I see and to [clears throat]
15:59me say when I took the Baba business
16:08>> it was
16:10Kolkata was reeling under 14 15 hours of
16:13power cuts every day.
16:15>> Mhm.
16:16>> As a kid when I was growing up we didn't
16:20have electricity for at least 13 14
16:23hours every day. When we went to
16:25examination halls, we were given
16:28blotting papers to absorb the sweat.
16:32Otherwise, the the paper would smudge.
16:37>> And so to me, if you could
16:40[clears throat]
16:41solve this problem,
16:44there was an opportunity.
16:46>> So when the opportunity presented
16:48itself, I grabbed it.
16:51little realizing that the effort
16:54required to to make this change or
16:58transformation would be enormous. My
17:01father with his experience realized
17:04that it's a stupid move.
17:08>> Okay.
17:08>> And uh he opposed it. But my mother
17:12said,
17:19"Let him make his mistakes."
17:21>> Yes.
17:21>> And she persuaded him to allow me to go
17:23ahead with it.
17:25So the process of transformation
17:30was herculan
17:33and I didn't realize that
17:36within 6 months
17:40people expected the impossible.
17:47It doesn't happen like that.
17:51And then from you becoming a hope for a
17:56cure,
17:57you became the problem
18:00[gasps]
18:01>> because of you power cuts are [laughter]
18:02happening.
18:03>> So you were not only dealing with the
18:05fundamental issue of low generation,
18:08poor distribution, poor network,
18:11>> poor connectivity, poor metering. you
18:14were also dealing with
18:17the social stigma of being responsible
18:21for power cuts
18:23>> so it was about actually transforming
18:25the mindset of the people
18:29>> m
18:30>> in the company
18:33and once we got our act together as as a
18:38business
18:40then about
18:42altering the mindset
18:44of the city.
18:46>> M
18:48>> that listen
18:51yes we took time we took 3 years or 4
18:54years
18:56but we got there
19:00>> and we are here to serve you and then
19:02from Kolkata we went to Nida. From Nida
19:04we went to Bharatpur. Then from there to
19:07Kot then to Bikan then to Chandigar
19:11and
19:14Now with experience it's very easy for
19:16us to do it
19:18>> but the first one was difficult. So it's
19:21about
19:23introducing metering.
19:25>> M
19:2845 years ago
19:30many of the connections were not
19:33metered.
19:35>> Okay.
19:35>> And the meters wouldn't work.
19:37>> Okay.
19:52So they would insert lead underneath the
19:56meter. Now the lead disoriented the
20:00reading of the meter. it just spoiled
20:04the calibration of the circuit and
20:07therefore the reading was all haywire.
20:11So it was literally area by area,
20:15connection by connection. So we for
20:17example said if somebody has 10 ACS in
20:20uh installed
20:22and assuming you're operating an AC for
20:258 hours a day
20:27>> so this should be your bill. Now then we
20:29started mapping if this should be your
20:30bill your bill is much less
20:32>> then we need to investigate that supply
20:35>> and 90% of such cases were pilfering.
20:41So it was about
20:44and the same people who were pilfering
20:46saw you as a threat
20:49because you were stopping their income.
20:52You were stopping that.
20:53>> Yeah. And therefore they were working
20:58against you. They were working for you
20:59to fail.
21:02>> Okay. And how were they working against
21:04you?
21:04>> So they they would uh so it was through
21:07media. In those days there was no social
21:09media. M
21:11>> so they would finance campaigns against
21:14us in media
21:18and they would do this and they would go
21:21into the court and
21:23then they would all kinds of things
21:26>> arrange small little protest protest
21:29yeah and
21:31>> unions
21:32>> they would create consumer associations
21:34which were all fake
21:36>> some were genuine but most of them were
21:38fake and chamber of commerce would
21:40object and things like that. So it was
21:43not only transformation of the business,
21:45it was transformation of the mindset and
21:48it was transformation of a culture that
21:51you pay for what you consume.
21:57This is not like you you're entitled to
21:59free electricity all your life, right?
22:01>> But how do you change that when everyone
22:05is stealing and getting it for free? How
22:08do you actually set a mechanism that
22:10they they can't steal anymore? And the
22:12entire city, you're not talking about
22:13one specific little thing.
22:16>> It was not the entire city. It was bulk
22:18of the city. It was bulk of the industry
22:20which was the big consumers
22:22>> and bulk of industrialists who were big
22:25consumers of ours at home.
22:27>> Okay.
22:27>> Right. Uh
22:31and and there were touts who would go
22:33around. So we had a situation where a
22:37tout came in met
22:40>> and said
22:43I'll make it 5,000 rupees my cut will be
22:4620,000
22:48and he had certain officials of my
22:50company on his payroll.
22:53So it was it was quite
22:57like a
22:58it it was a horrendous setup. It was an
23:01organized
23:02>> It was organized complete.
23:05And then you had you said you can't go
23:08and
23:12you know if you're going on inspections,
23:15>> you can't go in this area because you a
23:19certain community lives
23:21>> and you cannot touch them.
23:24And so you had to do deal with all kinds
23:26of issues
23:28and it's taken several years.
23:31>> Would goons disturb you? Because I'm
23:33assuming if there's an organized crime,
23:35there'll be thousands of people on
23:37payroll and there'll be goons.
23:40But you know, so
23:44now I realize what my father meant when
23:47I when he said it's a stupid decision,
23:51but I'm very happy that I'm in the power
23:53business.
23:54>> Mhm.
23:56>> I'm actually happy that I took the call
23:57when I did.
23:59Uh
24:02and I'm happy that I've been able to
24:04make this change.
24:05>> Yeah. because it leaves me with some
24:07sense of satisfaction
24:11that there was a change that one was
24:13able to do. What was the first change
24:15you made now that you saw compan losses,
24:18broken network, broken connections,
24:21broken distribution, the entire city
24:23stealing from you,
24:26industrialists are against you, there
24:27are goons disturbing you. There are so
24:30many things to fix. Where did you start
24:32fixing? Like what was the first step?
24:33first thing that you were like, "Okay,
24:35let me fix this." And then the next
24:37problem,
24:37>> the first thing was really to actually
24:40try and
24:44get people within my company to believe
24:47that this can be changed rather than
24:50believe.
24:54So it was to instill that confidence
24:57that this is doable
24:59>> and the stealing would stop
25:01>> and the stealing could stop.
25:05So it [laughter]
25:07>> like it was not certain. It was always
25:09probability. It was a probability
25:12because how do you know when it's been
25:15institutionalized
25:17>> and the government is as much part of it
25:20as industry is as consumers are.
25:25>> Uh
25:27>> okay.
25:28>> So you're you're you're fighting
25:29multiple battles for each connection.
25:34It was arduous. It was time consuming.
25:37It was painstaking. But
25:39>> yes, we've got there.
25:40>> But what did you see in a broken
25:42business? This company was broken,
25:44right? And from an outsers's
25:46perspective,
25:48let's say first
25:50you thought that okay, you want to be a
25:53part of providing power and you want to
25:56be in this business, right? But once
25:57you're in the process of maybe making a
26:00bid, acquiring, you are understanding
26:02and you're doing due diligence in your
26:04own sense, right? So you are getting
26:06aware about these problems that there
26:08will be the community will be against
26:10us, employees will be against us. There
26:12are a lot of bribery going on. There's
26:15lot of poor connections. Everything is
26:16going on. So you understand all of these
26:18problems. It's a broken company with
26:19broken concept and nobody believes. So
26:21broken belief as well. Now what are you
26:24seeing in the business? Why do you want
26:25it?
26:25>> So there was no due diligence in those
26:27days.
26:28>> Okay. [laughter]
26:30>> There was no due diligence. So
26:32>> how did you decide to buy a business and
26:34then just
26:35>> it just seemed like a decent
26:36opportunity? [laughter]
26:40So it wasn't like
26:42>> some exorbitant sum. So
26:45>> my approach was key at worst
26:49that was the approach.
26:51>> So that was the
26:53confidence risk it's the family won't
26:56sink because of this.
26:58>> How much revenue does it do today? the
27:01power business where it does a fair bit.
27:03>> What is it? What's the
27:05>> It's a public, right? So,
27:06>> yeah, I mean our assets there are about
27:0840,000 crores and we are in the process
27:11of building uh investing uh investments
27:15underway are about 54,000 crores in that
27:18business.
27:20>> Dusk crus
27:2210 cr to 40,000 cr.
27:24>> Yeah,
27:25>> I should look for businesses which are
27:27like completely broken right now.
27:29[laughter]
27:34No, but you know fun apart it was there
27:39must be something fundamental you must
27:41have changed. It's not easy to turn
27:43around and transform a 10 cr business
27:46into with so many problems. No, but it's
27:48also about changing the culture,
27:51>> a culture of suspicion
27:55to a culture of confidence and a sense
27:58of pride in doing something that nobody
28:02thought was doable.
28:04>> And once we got that sense of pride
28:07within the organization,
28:10then it became much easier.
28:12>> How do you do that? How do you talk? It
28:13was about constantly communicating
28:16within the team
28:22making them believe
28:23>> making them believe that it's a in
28:26addition to doing work
28:28in addition to getting recognition they
28:31will get blessings
28:33>> and that worked for you.
28:34>> That worked.
28:35>> There was a I was reading that your your
28:38friends used to joke about it every time
28:40there was a night off park. Absolutely.
28:43>> They used to be like you're the you're
28:44the one responsible for it.
28:46>> So I remember there was this restaurant
28:48called Polynia in the Oberoy Hotel
28:52>> and we had gone there for somebody's
28:54birthday celebration.
28:55>> Okay.
28:57Restaurants.
29:02We could go to restaurants often. Okay.
29:04So whenever you went it was a big thing
29:10hoteler
29:14park the whole restaurant was saying
29:18here's the man who's responsible for the
29:19parks [laughter]
29:24and that day I felt like sort of saying
29:27you know I wish I'd listened to dad
29:30>> how embarrassed were you
29:32>> I was embarrassed and I was irritated
29:34ated because I said you know damn it by
29:38that time from 14 hours you had already
29:41gone to about 6 hours
29:44>> you were not zero but you'd gone to 6
29:46hours so it was an improved situation
29:49appreciate the improvement instead of
29:51finding fault
29:54>> but did you did you had a bad day that
29:56night or you just you were like let I'll
30:00show them one day
30:02>> I no it was neither It was it was
30:05actually a sense of
30:09wrong decision. Did I make a wrong
30:11decision? You know,
30:13>> uh yeah.
30:15Is it worth this kind of
30:20misaction?
30:21>> Did you ever feel that you are in a
30:23thankless business?
30:25>> Yes. I mean now you realize a utility is
30:28a thankless business.
30:31A utility means you're there to give
30:33service.
30:35>> The fact that you're giving very good
30:37service
30:39doesn't count for anything because over
30:41a period of 3 months it gets taken for
30:44granted
30:47and then if you have one glitch then
30:50it's a problem.
30:50>> Yeah.
30:52So
30:54it keeps us on our toes
30:55>> because nobody will appreciate you for
30:58364 days of electricity. One day if we
31:02don't get electricity 1 hour
31:03>> 5 minutes
31:05>> yeah I was like in 2026 how can we lose
31:09>> but I think the city is
31:11thankfully
31:13very appreciative of what has happened
31:15here
31:17and uh
31:19>> in hindsight yes. Yeah, but we do get
31:23there are some naysayers
31:26but by and large
31:28we get a lot of affection and love
31:32from the city
31:33>> for transforming this piece.
31:34>> Yeah. Tell me for a lay man let's say if
31:37someone's watching it what happens
31:39behind the scene let's say if I
31:42if I switch on a light right now right
31:46and automatically the lights are on what
31:49is going behind where is the electricity
31:51born how is it reaching me what are the
31:54phases in between like
31:55>> so you have a transfer so first you
31:57generate power
31:58>> okay where is it generated in a
32:00>> so we have our own power generating
32:03stations you generate the power.
32:05>> Okay.
32:06>> Then you take the power
32:08>> and that get generated through thermal
32:10or solar or
32:11>> so it's largely for the city it's yet
32:13largely thermal.
32:15>> It's going to be over the next 2 to 3
32:17years 50% will become renewable.
32:20>> Okay.
32:21>> But you generate from wherever. Then you
32:24transport the power.
32:25>> Okay.
32:26>> You call it wheel
32:28>> some vehicle.
32:29>> Yeah. So you have buyers you have to lay
32:32the wires. Then you have transformers
32:37and you have substations
32:40>> which modulate the frequency of the
32:42power
32:44>> and from there it goes on to individual
32:46then again you have connections into
32:48individual homes
32:51>> and then it goes through that and then
32:52you have a meter which measures the
32:54amount of power you're consuming or
32:56drawing
32:58>> and how much of this entire chain comes
33:00from your company
33:02>> here in Kolkata Everything
33:04>> everything from that till the last
33:06switch like every transformer every
33:08>> everything everything so when we took
33:10over we didn't have substations
33:13>> we didn't have a full network which was
33:15efficient
33:16>> we didn't have transformers which were
33:19efficient so it was a whole system
33:22>> that needed refixing
33:24>> what's the most difficult part of it the
33:27generation or the distribution
33:29or service
33:30>> the generation is actually easier
33:32Because once your plant is set up, then
33:36you only need preventive maintenance and
33:37regular maintenance and the plant churns
33:40out.
33:40>> Okay.
33:41>> It's dealing with a consumer that's far
33:44more difficult.
33:45>> And is it like but dealing with consumer
33:48that's service, right? So every time
33:49they'll have billing issues or something
33:50like that those kind of little
33:52>> you actually have to keep constantly
33:54communicating educating
33:57uh and and uh so we had a similar
34:01experience in uh greater Nida where when
34:04we took over the distribution
34:07uh we didn't realize we were getting
34:09into situations where gundas were
34:12involved and so people came and took
34:15chairs and
34:17bang them over the heads of our people.
34:21So
34:22it was it was quite horrific
34:25>> recent like you
34:26>> no this was several years ago when we
34:27took over that today it's a very highly
34:30successful company
34:32>> and in the UP assembly it's been hailed
34:34out as an extraordinary example of
34:37privatization.
34:38Uh so you you were telling me so people
34:41were hitting and then
34:42>> and
34:49uh and so again it was a repeat but once
34:52you've gone through one it's easier to
34:54go through the next
34:58but it's a process and from 30 40 years
35:02ago to now it's become much easier
35:04because people are more exposed educated
35:08They frankly want a service and 90% of
35:10the people are willing to pay for the
35:12service for the consumption. Right.
35:15>> So it's it's that mindset has changed.
35:18>> Fair. Fair. And is what is about rains
35:22that we somehow still lose electricity
35:25during the rains like something goes off
35:28something specifically which is hard
35:30about the business in rains. It doesn't
35:31work out
35:32>> in our in the cities where we distribute
35:34that doesn't happen
35:35>> that. Okay. [laughter]
35:36But in usual cities you'll always hear
35:39like I I'm from Indor right? So there's
35:42247 365 days there is power.
35:46If ever sometime there's a power cut
35:49it's usually midnight during the rains
35:52something has happened
35:54and people usually blame it that oh
35:56because the weather was bad is
35:58>> I don't think weather has anything to do
36:00with that.
36:01>> Okay it's just an excuse. So if a city
36:03loses power okay now that the
36:06distribution is right generation is
36:08right servicing is right your systems in
36:10place still there must be some black
36:13swan event
36:14>> where city loses power
36:15>> you can have say if you have a huge
36:18cyclone
36:20>> then you can have a situation which
36:23we've had in Kolkata where trees get
36:26uprooted
36:28>> and they fall on power lines
36:31>> so then the lines and snap.
36:33>> Okay.
36:34>> So there have been those situations.
36:37Uh we had Afan which was one of the
36:39biggest cyclones that India has seen
36:42and the Kolkata Municipal Corporation
36:45did not have electric saws.
36:48So you could not cut the trees.
36:52Over 200 trees which were like 70 80 100
36:55years old had fallen
36:58because
37:00the government
37:02had built
37:05you know instead of
37:07the mud and everything the tree grew on
37:09they had built roads and pavements.
37:13>> So as it is the roots had become shaky
37:15they had cut off the roots.
37:16>> Yeah.
37:17>> So the moment
37:20[clears throat]
37:21yeah
37:22>> and they fell on lines.
37:25Now you have to cut
37:27the trees. But the Kolkata Municipal
37:30Corporation did not have electric saws.
37:34>> So then again the angst came on us.
37:42We are not the civic authority, right?
37:46We had a few civic, we had a few
37:48electric sauce. But so these are the
37:51situations where you can have
37:54if you're consuming your transformer,
37:57you've asked for x
38:01>> kilow of power.
38:02>> Yeah.
38:03>> And without intimation, you're actually
38:07drawing 2x or 3x
38:11>> up to a point, the transformer has the
38:13ability to give you extra power. Yeah.
38:15>> Beyond that the transformer bursts.
38:20So
38:21people have asked for
38:25they've said we've got eight ACs.
38:27>> Mhm.
38:28>> But they've actually installed 18.
38:32The transformer will not function.
38:34>> Yeah.
38:35>> It'll either burst or just stop
38:36functioning.
38:37>> Yeah.
38:37>> And in which case then you have a park
38:40and it's one transformer is not serving
38:42just one supply.
38:44It's serving a whole area.
38:48So then the power goes off everywhere.
38:50>> So one person or like five people
38:53>> can be responsible for something like
38:55this.
38:56>> So the weakest link in the entire power
38:59cut situation apart from natural
39:00calamities is the overconumption. It's
39:03the over consumption without
39:04>> or is it like some part or something in
39:06transformer some loose thing which keeps
39:09>> I see the [clears throat] technology has
39:10advanced so much that it's very rare for
39:12you to for the machine to fail.
39:14>> Okay. So it's over consumption.
39:15>> It's over consumption.
39:17>> Interesting. I didn't know that. I
39:18always thought that there is some
39:21some loose connection which goes wrong
39:23in transformer that's why the
39:26transformer burst and and then we face
39:28all of these problems.
39:30>> It's so us is the problem.
39:32>> [laughter]
39:34>> We've had one power cut in our office
39:36once
39:38which was and we had to change that
39:40office because then we later realized
39:42that it was the over consumption problem
39:44and we had to because our podcast was
39:47supposed to go live at 9:09 as scheduled
39:51about 7:00 p.m. The whole office is off
39:56>> just gone and
39:58>> but
40:00that's what for us it was first and then
40:03now we calling they're like Khalifix.
40:06So now there were like seven eight team
40:09members. I was not even there in India
40:11and I didn't even know this is
40:12happening. Okay. They didn't even tell
40:15me. There were like four or five of
40:18these like my my team members. They
40:21picked up a system.
40:23They sat on someone's bike, went to
40:26someone's house, connected the system
40:28there, and uploaded the whole podcast.
40:31>> But you can do it. But you know,
40:33frankly, that is an illegal connection,
40:35>> right?
40:36>> Going to someone's house
40:39>> and you've done it for a particular
40:41period, that's fine.
40:42>> Just for that uploading and coming back,
40:44that's fine. But this is the kind of
40:46thing that people do all the time.
40:48Meaning
40:49>> they hook onto somebody else's supply.
40:52>> But V2 went inside the house and can use
40:54the system.
40:54>> That's why now
40:56>> we not hooking.
40:56>> Close to 80% of our supply is
41:00uh underground. So you can't do all
41:02that.
41:03>> No, no. I I didn't hook.
41:04>> But you you actually connected to
41:06someone else's
41:06>> like we went to the house and then
41:08inside house we started a system and did
41:09it.
41:10>> But if you have something like this,
41:11what option do you have?
41:12>> Exactly.
41:15[laughter] said this work and we like
41:18the moment we got to know in our head
41:21the first 15 minutes I must have cursed
41:23everybody in the electricity world
41:26because that's the natural reaction
41:28>> yeah it's a very natur
41:31this was 25 uh not it was last year I
41:34think 2025 this is happening
41:36>> yeah absolutely
41:38>> so that was the problem okay so this was
41:40your power power company
41:45When last time when we met uh after a
41:49podcast you were telling me about Sarama
41:52and that story has been in my head and
41:55it's printed. Tell me the story of how
41:59did you a acquire Sarama that's one at
42:04what price? That's also I want to know
42:07and then C.
42:09>> Okay so Sarajama was acquired by my
42:12father.
42:13>> Okay. and uh
42:16he was a very great friend of the
42:19worldwide CEO of
42:22HMV as it was [clears throat] called in
42:24those days
42:25>> Bhaskar Merin.
42:26>> Mhm.
42:28>> And Baskar Merin uh was uh in India
42:34and he invited my dad for a cup of
42:36coffee
42:40and I don't know one thing or another.
42:42He told him
42:53so dad came and he said
43:01so my mother's my mother was very much
43:03into music.
43:05uh she would listen to music for about
43:07five six hours every day and she knew
43:10every song everything like the lyrics
43:13everything.
43:14>> So she said
43:19so dad then went and uh
43:23in those days there were no mobiles and
43:26phones.
43:31So he went and met Bhaskar Marin
43:36and uh he told him
43:42so he said
43:48he
43:51said
43:55so dad said okay that's how the deal got
44:01literally
44:05and then mom was involved with running
44:07it
44:09but she was running it out of emotion
44:13and not from a business perspective
44:20then you it was those days records LPs
44:23[snorts] and then it got converted into
44:25cassettes cassettes got converted into
44:27CDs Mhm.
44:28>> And we set up a CD manufacturing
44:30facility, etc., etc., etc.
44:34And we had some of the biggest hits of
44:35all time,
44:431942, Love Story,
44:45uh,
44:47>> duplicate of, uh, Yashar.
44:52uh
44:53to some some phenomenal hits
44:56but we were grappling with piracy.
44:59>> Okay.
45:00>> And there was mass scale piracy. There
45:02was organized piracy
45:04>> like CDs
45:07or something
45:08>> counterfeits.
45:09>> Yeah.
45:10>> Uh
45:12and it was an organized thing that was
45:15happening.
45:15>> Yeah. So I went to Arun Jetli who was
45:19one of the foremost lawyers and legal
45:22brains in the country
45:25and I said
45:30he study.
45:32So he said let's meet tomorrow evening
45:34at 9.
45:36So I went into his chamber tomorrow
45:37evening at 9
45:40and he said I've got this answer.
45:44I said, "What is the answer?"
45:47He said,
46:09He said we'll have to file the court and
46:12he says hearing but he says 100%
46:17which is what happened. So that was the
46:20first step towards protecting
46:23our volumes and getting legitimate sales
46:26or at least capturing part of the sales
46:28that were illegitimate
46:31>> or by counterfe
46:34>> and then
46:35the whole
46:38process got digitized and distribution
46:41became digital. So then there was no
46:42question of piracy or counterfeating or
46:44anything of that kind and so that menace
46:47went away. H but how this how does this
46:50business make money?
46:52>> What's the way?
46:53>> We own we own roughly I mean it's about
46:5650% of the total Indian music recorded
46:59or maybe 45% of the total Indian music
47:01recorded. So till the time T-Series
47:05became a potent threat all the music
47:09came to us. So all the recording was
47:12with us. Mhm.
47:14>> Then we somehow for 10 12 years we were
47:17absent from the music market.
47:19>> Why?
47:20>> No reason, no plausible reason. We said
47:25we don't want to compete with
47:27uh this and that. It was basically we I
47:31think had lost track.
47:33>> Okay. There's little ignorance. Uh and
47:35then we came up with Karva which was a
47:39tech technological marvel
47:42and then we realized that the more and
47:45more the Spotify and the savans and uh
47:48you know the Ghanaas of the world came
47:51people were not willing to pay only for
47:53old repertoire.
47:54>> You needed new content.
47:56>> Yeah.
47:57>> Uh they wanted the old one but it was
48:00new which was
48:02more relevant.
48:03>> Yeah.
48:04And then we got back into new Hindi film
48:07content. And today we have over the last
48:10few years if you see
48:13the biggest hits are ours.
48:17Literally the biggest hits are ours.
48:20>> I mean take take the top 10 of the last
48:245 years. Six would be ours.
48:29>> But how does this business make money?
48:31Like what do you mean by owning music?
48:33You own the copyright.
48:34>> Okay. And then where do you sell it? Who
48:37makes money?
48:38>> So you sell it. I mean YouTube
48:40consumption, Spotify, Ghana
48:44in AdSense revenue.
48:46>> Huh. And then you you you have the
48:50societies the PPLs and the IPs which
48:54collect revenue for concerts and
48:57performances and then it's divided in a
49:00certain proportion.
49:01>> Okay. And what do you mean by concerts?
49:03So somebody has to sing you a song,
49:05they'll have to pay you.
49:06>> They have to pay us.
49:07>> So if there's a DJ who's playing,
49:09>> so that is not always possible to
49:13correct. But therefore uh and now the
49:16government has liberalized weddings and
49:18all from not having to pay this.
49:20>> Okay. So but legally they were supposed
49:23to pay.
49:25>> So if any DJ is playing a song in a
49:27wedding
49:28>> Yeah.
49:28>> was supposed to pay but now it's no
49:30more.
49:30>> Now it's no more. So anybody can play
49:32but in a restaurant if you're playing
49:34>> in a wedding. In a wedding
49:35>> in a wedding. Okay. But in a restaurant
49:37if someone's playing then they have to
49:38pay you.
49:38>> Yeah.
49:39>> So they have to buy.
49:40>> So they pay they pay to the no. So the
49:42typically to make it easier you pay to a
49:44society.
49:45>> So there is a PPL which is a society
49:48which collects and then an IPRS which
49:50collects from
49:52>> everyone and then distributes to the
49:54music companies.
49:55>> Is it a big business just music owning?
49:58>> Yes. Yes. It's a big business.
50:01just like just owning music and owning
50:04rights of this or is there some other
50:06revenue out of it?
50:08>> No, it's it's about actually monetizing
50:10that music. I mean, so some
50:14two companies have recently taken our
50:16songs as jiggles for the ads.
50:19>> So they pay us for that.
50:20>> M okay. And
50:25what is the biggest challenge in this
50:27business
50:29in the music business?
50:30>> You know there is no certainty
50:33that the music will be a hit. So for
50:35every hit you will have five flops.
50:38>> So the predictable model is not there.
50:41>> It's not completely predictable. It's
50:42somewhat unpredictable.
50:44>> But then how do you build a successful
50:46business in this?
50:47>> So it has to be a portfolio. It's like a
50:50fund in a way, right?
50:51>> Okay. Not
50:52>> there has to be some thesis right for
50:54fun to succeed
50:55>> it depends upon what is the story line
50:58of the film who is the director who is
51:01the producer who are the stars so is
51:03there a higher probability of success
51:06>> so Sanjaya Bansali is making love and
51:08war that is going to be probably the
51:11biggest film of recent times
51:14>> it has Ranir Aliya and Vicki
51:18>> so you have as big a star cast as Yeah,
51:21>> you can imagine.
51:23>> And Sanjay does things on a scale that
51:26is unbelievable
51:29>> and he creates magic. So the chances of
51:32that succeeding are the highest
51:35compared to anything else.
51:36>> Mhm. Fair.
51:38>> So just that. So if you have to pay 50
51:41crores to acquire the audio rights, you
51:42say okay you're betting on Sanjay Laba
51:45Bansali's creativity on his ear for
51:48music on his ability to pictureize
51:51on the stars who are going you know so
51:54it's it's a combination.
51:56>> Got it.
51:56>> And his ability to do the storytelling
51:59>> but do you get into this is movie music
52:01but do you get into then
52:04independent music?
52:05>> Oh yes we do. I mean we don't
52:07>> like how like Warner or people would
52:08like to
52:09>> Yeah. So one of the biggest wedding
52:11songs of all time is our non-film album.
52:15>> Which one?
52:16>> A saj.
52:17>> Oh
52:18>> S shaher.
52:19>> Uhhuh.
52:19>> It's it's now played at every wedding.
52:22>> Yeah.
52:22>> Literally.
52:23>> And it's a nonmov song.
52:25>> It's a non movie song. It's a beautiful
52:26song.
52:27>> So it runs like a proper label.
52:29>> Of course. Of course. So we've launched
52:31uh this young kid couple of years ago,
52:35three four years ago called Mahi.
52:37>> Mhm.
52:38>> He is Shan's son,
52:39>> a brilliant student.
52:42He gave up his education at the age of
52:4417 to focus purely on music and he's
52:46probably 19 or 20 or 21 now.
52:50Has the potential of becoming one of the
52:52biggest music stars of all time.
52:55There's another young talent called
52:57Arjun Tawar
52:59who uh was the main lead for our
53:03theatrical production called Disco
53:05Dancer.
53:07Sings well, dances well.
53:11So he's done a few albums for us. Uh
53:15so a lot of uh I mean we've taken Diljit
53:18Dosange and we got him to do a song in
53:22Karan Johawar's film for which we had
53:25the audio rights. Uh
53:28and so there is a lot of things that you
53:30do
53:31>> is with you guys. No
53:33>> is with Djit is Djit.
53:35>> Okay.
53:36>> But uh
53:36>> he's not with anyone.
53:38>> He's with Warner. I don't know.
53:40>> He's he does independent albums. I mean
53:43Aijit has just done a single for us
53:45recently. So you know it's
53:48>> the big ones would do with everyone and
53:50he would [clears throat] capitalize on
53:52certain things and
53:54>> but all Djit's concerts are done by
53:56Sarama.
53:58>> Okay. And I was looking at some chart
54:00that
54:02your old songs are suddenly now making
54:06you the maximum revenue. All right. Why
54:10is that? Like there are few songs which
54:11specifically like maop
54:16these songs are now their revenue
54:19independently songs are growing like
54:21crazily
54:22because you see they're brilliant songs
54:25and there are so many of them a lot of
54:26kishor la songs do phenomenally for us
54:30>> like now it's why it's reviving
54:32>> because retro is back
54:35and
54:37when you have reality shows like the
54:40Indian Idol and all they are all singing
54:42these songs so all of them have large
54:46audiences so people are hearing them
54:50>> and radio stations are playing it so I
54:53think it's it's a combination of
54:54multiple factors and we are promoting it
54:56also so
54:58>> fair and and a large part of promoting
55:01that okay at least in my household all
55:04of a sudden this was couple of years
55:07back so my parents because of us started
55:10listening to new songs, right? But now
55:13there's revived because of Carva.
55:15>> Exactly. So Carva has become the biggest
55:17tool for retro music
55:20>> and every home has a carva.
55:21>> Yeah. Like my mom has gone back to now
55:25listening to only Latam Mangishkar and
55:28she's like she doesn't care about our
55:30songs anymore.
55:31>> And you see if that's playing
55:34and if you're around so you're also
55:36listening to it.
55:37>> Yeah. And say my grandkids if I'm
55:40listening to it they are also listening
55:42to it. They may or may not enjoy it but
55:45they start identifying with it when they
55:47hear it and discos are playing it a lot.
55:50>> I have started listening to them because
55:52my mom now exactly
55:54>> and now mom's not even there then also I
55:56hear like two three songs in my playlist
55:59I've added which are old songs. So you
56:01know like I was um I had gone for
56:04somebody's [snorts] uh pre-wedding okay
56:08party and most of the songs that they
56:11were playing were uh Kishor Kumar songs
56:17yes remixed
56:19>> but those were the songs
56:21>> songs yeah
56:22>> at the end of the day it's
56:24>> was a
56:26uh
56:27was the one which was there you know
56:31Bachino.
56:34>> Yeah.
56:35>> So,
56:35>> revival of that plays everywhere. It's
56:40from I don't even think that it's an old
56:41song like it's our generation song
56:43because it been remixed so much.
56:45>> Yeah. So much. Exactly.
56:46>> So
56:48tell me about Carvang. how that came out
56:51like in the world of technology in the
56:53world of
56:54>> so it's a technological marvel honestly
56:57because nobody has been able to even
56:59reverse engineer and everyone has tried
57:01>> but it's an old device like it's
57:03>> the device looks old it's not an old
57:04device it's a it's it's a completely
57:07modern device but we wanted it to be
57:10associated with nostalgia
57:13>> how did that thought came in like start
57:15from scratch like how why did you even
57:18think of having Yes.
57:19>> So the idea is that how do you get how
57:22do you revive your catalog? Who listens
57:25to your catalog is 50 plus 60 plus
57:27people in those days. Now it's 40 plus.
57:31>> Uh
57:35so they don't use they're not listening
57:37because they they don't know how to go
57:38to their uh phones and uh play music.
57:42They don't have Spotify. It's
57:44inconvenient for them. How do you make
57:46it in a way
57:49technology proof?
57:51>> Use technology to make it technology
57:53proof and make it simple.
57:55>> So that was the concept and we worked on
57:57it and we got it.
58:00>> And then how do you actually
58:04don't intimidate them with just the
58:06appearance?
58:08And my family used to own Murphy. And in
58:11our conference room by some quirk of
58:14coincidence there was an old Murphy
58:15radio line.
58:17>> So the thought came up around that table
58:21that why don't we do something like
58:22this? So it's it's actually very similar
58:24to an old Murphy radio.
58:26>> M
58:28>> and so that it's not intimidating to the
58:31older generation
58:33and it's technology. So all you have to
58:35do it's it's it's it's not even the
58:37click of a button. It's this
58:39>> Yeah. It's it's rotating a knob.
58:42>> Yeah.
58:43>> Which is what they've done all their
58:45lives. And you've created moods
58:48playlists, artists wise, film wise,
58:50genre wise. So it just keeps playing.
58:55>> And so that has been it was a
58:58technological success, it was a
59:00marketing success and that has
59:02contributed hugely to the revival of the
59:06popularity of the old Saurus. And it the
59:09thought started with how can we serve
59:11people who listen to our audience.
59:12>> Yeah.
59:13>> And make it
59:13>> and then when we wanted to market it we
59:15didn't want to spend too much money
59:16because we didn't know whether it'll
59:18succeed or not.
59:19>> So we wanted to make we wanted to do
59:21social media and in those days social
59:23media was just about beginning to get
59:25relevant. So we we wanted to create a
59:28film which was not a typical ad film.
59:32>> It was a story.
59:34>> Okay.
59:36And it was a story we said which had to
59:38make you cry.
59:41>> So we gave the brief to this filmmaker.
59:44>> Mhm.
59:45>> And he came up with this concept that a
59:48husband and wife their time together was
59:51spent
59:54in listening to old music.
59:57>> M
59:58>> and that is how they spent their retired
1:00:00life.
1:00:02Then the wife passed away and the
1:00:06husband didn't know what to do.
1:00:08Uh, and he didn't know how to put on a
1:00:13cassette or a CD or whatever it was.
1:00:18Then his children got him this karma and
1:00:21he started listening to this and he
1:00:23found his zest for life again.
1:00:26So when the first time I heard the
1:00:28narration, I had tears in my eyes
1:00:32because of the way it was narrated. And
1:00:34when I saw the film, I cried. I
1:00:37literally cried.
1:00:39And
1:00:42it took 3 months for the film to go
1:00:45viral, but then it did. And because of
1:00:48the film, Karma became like a hot
1:00:50property.
1:00:51>> So the marketing was brilliant.
1:00:54And we spent almost no money on it
1:00:58because it was just reals and the same
1:01:01things being reposted and uh people were
1:01:03not sharing it for karma. They were
1:01:05saying how sensitive and how beautiful
1:01:07and what a lovely film
1:01:08>> story. Yeah.
1:01:08>> And then by the process it was karma
1:01:10karma karma ka film karma.
1:01:17So and most people didn't even call it
1:01:19karma. They called it caravan.
1:01:21[laughter] They still do. But that's
1:01:23fine. As long as they keep buying it,
1:01:25it's fine.
1:01:27>> Do you think I was looking at this trend
1:01:30in in western world there all of a
1:01:33sudden now venile culture has come back,
1:01:36right? The old they're buying those old
1:01:39like you can put out that venile and
1:01:41then you run it and it it's it's
1:01:44something which is becoming big.
1:01:46>> Yeah. But you know what's happening also
1:01:48is it's something that's coming back to
1:01:50an extent
1:01:50>> like the vintage value in everything is
1:01:52coming back.
1:01:52>> Yeah. The vintage value is coming back
1:01:56but it's not going to become mass.
1:01:59>> So we are also doing some bits of it but
1:02:02it's not going to be bread and butter
1:02:04for us ever.
1:02:04>> Yeah. And it's going to be a niche. And
1:02:07does it is it also because India never
1:02:10had venile at mass. So that's why people
1:02:13don't even have a vintage value around
1:02:15it.
1:02:15>> No people do. Okay. I mean maybe
1:02:18individual households didn't but there
1:02:20was the Sarpanch's house or this or that
1:02:22which had it so people visit to it on a
1:02:25community basis.
1:02:26>> Okay. So people are aware of the
1:02:27concept.
1:02:28>> So we also did initially we went to
1:02:30different
1:02:32panchayats and all and we gifted them a
1:02:35karma.
1:02:36>> Nice
1:02:38and
1:02:42then people were experiencing what it is
1:02:44and then people started buying it
1:02:46because of that. Mhm. So would you call
1:02:48this the biggest transformation moment
1:02:50for Sarajama?
1:02:51>> For sure. For sure.
1:02:53>> Karma.
1:02:54>> Karma. And then now the next big thing
1:02:57is getting into films in a big way. Uh
1:03:02with our investment and eventually 50%
1:03:05stake in uh Sanjaya Bansari's company.
1:03:09Uh
1:03:09>> why him?
1:03:11>> Why not him?
1:03:13>> Fair. [laughter]
1:03:14I mean but how did this start like where
1:03:17from where did you get an idea that hey
1:03:20we should be involved in films and we
1:03:23should be involved with Sanjali.
1:03:27>> So we we had started producing our own
1:03:29films. So 26 or 27 of our films are on
1:03:34hot star prime Netflix etc etc.
1:03:40But we didn't have the courage to get
1:03:42into big budget films and that's where
1:03:44the money is,
1:03:45>> right?
1:03:46>> On a studio level production.
1:03:47>> At a studio level and how do you convert
1:03:49it into a full-fledged studio? It would
1:03:52take us 10 years to do it. So the next
1:03:54obvious thing was to really buy into a
1:03:56studio.
1:03:58>> And Sanjay Bansali is
1:04:01the biggest, the grandest and the best
1:04:04of them all. Right?
1:04:07So he was always somebody who we wanted
1:04:10and then I was having lunch with Karan
1:04:12Johawar in London
1:04:15>> and he said you know I'm looking at
1:04:17divesting 50% of my company Dharma would
1:04:20you be interested
1:04:21>> so we got into the dialogue and we
1:04:23almost came to a deal we
1:04:25>> in fact did come to a deal
1:04:28>> then the legal teams took over and they
1:04:32screwed up big time
1:04:34>> so you The current deal fell through
1:04:40>> and in
1:04:40>> so Karan backed out after that.
1:04:42>> Karan did the deal with Adab
1:04:45>> but in the meanwhile we had got an
1:04:48approach from Bansari productions.
1:04:51>> Oh they already approached you?
1:04:52>> Yeah and because we were in dialogue
1:04:54with Dharma we were sort of we felt it
1:04:58would not be ethical
1:05:00>> to pursue that dialogue. The moment that
1:05:02deal didn't happen, we pursued this and
1:05:04this was
1:05:07he was Sanjay is anyway the
1:05:11I mean nobody can produce films like
1:05:13Sanjay can
1:05:15>> like every film is beautiful I mean and
1:05:19and they're massive
1:05:22>> but we can't compare like the Karan or
1:05:24Sanjay at all they're two totally
1:05:25different models
1:05:26>> and they're both geniuses in their own
1:05:28right
1:05:28>> they're both geniuses and I have nothing
1:05:30but the deepest of respect for both of
1:05:32them.
1:05:32>> Mhm.
1:05:33>> They're both very good friends. Uh we
1:05:36are in regular touch. Uh and I really
1:05:40have nothing but respect and affection
1:05:43for both.
1:05:45But I'm delighted to be with Sanjay.
1:05:47[laughter]
1:05:48>> And how did your first so first time
1:05:50when the Bali production reached out to
1:05:52you, how did that meeting or first time
1:05:54when you met him?
1:05:55>> It was actually very uh smooth.
1:05:58>> Mhm.
1:05:59It took a lot of time but it was very
1:06:02smooth
1:06:04because I think both were keen
1:06:07to work together
1:06:10and both appreciated
1:06:13the value that the other was bringing
1:06:16and neither wanted to intrude on the
1:06:19other's expertise. So I think it sort of
1:06:23worked out well. He has an extraordinary
1:06:26uh CEO
1:06:28uh very capable lady.
1:06:32So
1:06:34I think the team is good.
1:06:36>> It's
1:06:36>> and I think we are very excited.
1:06:39>> Nice. Nice. It's Do [snorts] you think
1:06:42regional cinema, regional music, the the
1:06:46entire conversation around regional
1:06:48content, do you think that's the future?
1:06:51Yes, we we are now getting into regional
1:06:53in a very big way. Tamil, Telugu,
1:06:57Malayali,
1:06:58uh, Gujarati, Punjabi, Marati.
1:07:02>> Where do you see the maximum growth now?
1:07:04Where is it? Like
1:07:05>> right now a lot of growth is happening
1:07:07in the Telugu sector.
1:07:10>> But
1:07:11everything is growing and growing
1:07:13exponentially. So we've acquired a
1:07:15Punjabi label. We've acquired a small
1:07:17thing in the Bjpuri label. I mean all of
1:07:20them are growing
1:07:23>> and regional music consumption is just
1:07:26growing leaps and bounds
1:07:27>> but any specific pattern or trend you're
1:07:29seeing that this specific language is
1:07:32doing well like Punjabi just killed it
1:07:35right now Punjabi is almost a global
1:07:37music
1:07:38>> it's it's really big like all around the
1:07:41world
1:07:41>> volumes in Telugu are very big
1:07:43>> volumes in Telugu but is it consumption
1:07:45is global or Indian
1:07:49>> it's by Telugu
1:07:52speaking people across the world. Mhm.
1:07:55No, it's not growing beyond Telugu
1:07:57speaking people yet. Like how Punjabi
1:07:59has gone. I don't speak Punjabi but I
1:08:02listen to Punjabi music. I love it. Like
1:08:03the music is like the music is great
1:08:05right. I don't understand ABCD any lyric
1:08:08but I just don't think the rhythm of
1:08:11Telugu I mean of even the South Indian
1:08:13music has a lot of rhythm.
1:08:17>> Uh it's a different kind of rhythm. It's
1:08:19a different kind of a beat.
1:08:20>> Mhm. Uh but there is a certain energy in
1:08:25that.
1:08:25>> Yeah.
1:08:26>> So people vibe with the energy.
1:08:28>> I've heard very less of it. So I
1:08:30wouldn't know. But is there any spe like
1:08:32you see Telugu or Bhpuri or Haranvi or
1:08:36any other language which is coming up
1:08:38and is growing beyond the speakers? I
1:08:41saw Haranvi just started uh picking up
1:08:45>> you know Raj honestly all the regions. I
1:08:48mean it's a question of time before they
1:08:50all start growing
1:08:52>> globally.
1:08:52>> Yeah.
1:08:54>> Like do you think any any Indian
1:08:57language
1:08:58which will have its Spanish kind of
1:09:00moment like how Spanish music just
1:09:03became the global music. It's no more
1:09:06Spanish moment anymore.
1:09:07>> I think Hindi
1:09:09>> Hindi is not catching up
1:09:14with the
1:09:14>> non Hindi. We've had an international
1:09:16major
1:09:17>> who's taken one of our songs for their
1:09:20ad campaign.
1:09:22>> Nice. Who
1:09:25>> it's yet to come? [gasps]
1:09:28>> Nice. So Hindi is also making
1:09:31>> Yeah.
1:09:31>> But I I see Hindi music being enjoyed by
1:09:35a lot of Hindi speakers all around the
1:09:37world and just because Indians are so
1:09:40many all around the world, we enjoy it.
1:09:42So we hear it in different parts of the
1:09:44world right I've not seen like other
1:09:47nationalities enjoying Hindi music yet
1:09:50at scale few
1:09:52>> but it's beginning to happen
1:09:53>> like how Spanish became like how the bad
1:09:56bunny bad bunny is the biggest global
1:09:59star right now right and he's Spanish
1:10:01star he's he doesn't speak he doesn't
1:10:04sing in English he sings in
1:10:07Spanish so do you think we have any
1:10:09moment like that
1:10:10>> but you know now Hindi films are getting
1:10:12consumed in China in a big way in Russia
1:10:14in a big way.
1:10:16I mean uh you hear of films doing 500
1:10:20600 700 crores of revenue in China.
1:10:22>> Yeah.
1:10:23>> So films are getting consumed.
1:10:26It's a question of time that music will
1:10:27also get consumed.
1:10:28>> True. Okay. So this is the music part of
1:10:31the business than the production house
1:10:34business. Right. There are so many other
1:10:37things where which you have acquired
1:10:40transformed and you have done great job
1:10:43with them. I want to understand what do
1:10:45you see when you acquire
1:10:46>> it's about whether we can get we getting
1:10:49something
1:10:52at values which are cheaper than the
1:10:54potential.
1:10:56>> But how explain me this how do you look
1:11:00at it a business? So we buy say when we
1:11:03bought a company like first source
1:11:04>> m
1:11:06>> we bought it at 400 crores.
1:11:09>> M
1:11:10>> the bo industry seemed to have a good
1:11:13future. This own company was doing
1:11:16badly. So there was two kinds of
1:11:18opportunities. One was improvement
1:11:21inside the company. The other is
1:11:25>> the industry improvement.
1:11:27And today that 400 crores is worth maybe
1:11:3025,000 crores or 23,000 crores or 24,000
1:11:34crores.
1:11:36So it was an opportunity and then it's a
1:11:38question of managing the company and
1:11:41initially we didn't know much about the
1:11:43business. We didn't know what goes into
1:11:45it.
1:11:46>> Today it's not just a BO. It's not a
1:11:49call center but it's also about data
1:11:51analytics. It's about using AI to to
1:11:55drive customer satisfaction.
1:11:58Uh
1:12:00it's about actually
1:12:04becoming relevant
1:12:07to your client.
1:12:08>> M
1:12:09>> so we've just finished 25 years of our
1:12:11relationship with Sky TV like in July
1:12:16and uh we are now their soul vendor.
1:12:21So obviously they've gained confidence
1:12:24in our ability to deliver value
1:12:27>> and we have some very long-standing
1:12:29relationships. We've been doing
1:12:30acquisitions in this space
1:12:32>> which are either giving us a different
1:12:35customer profile or a different
1:12:38geography profile. And now we've grown
1:12:42this business from being US, UK, India
1:12:46and Philippines has grown all over
1:12:50Australia,
1:12:51South Africa, Venezuela, Trinidad,
1:12:55Mexico,
1:12:57uh
1:12:58>> all across
1:12:59>> all across you know uh UAE
1:13:03uh it's just grown
1:13:05and uh
1:13:08So I think it's it takes a little bit of
1:13:11time to understand what works or what
1:13:14makes a business tick
1:13:16>> but over 6 months 9 months you start
1:13:18understanding that well and then it's a
1:13:21question of just relentlessly driving
1:13:25margins
1:13:26>> and when you acquire these companies the
1:13:29first thing you fix you find a CEO
1:13:32>> we generally don't try and change the
1:13:33existing CEO
1:13:36we try to if if the CEO is capable able
1:13:38then we keep him. If he's not then we
1:13:40change him.
1:13:41>> So why a CEO in an existing company was
1:13:46not able to scale but with you guys
1:13:48entering they're able to scale. What's
1:13:50the difference?
1:13:51>> Motivation, direction, clarity,
1:13:55security.
1:13:56>> So it's all psychological you're saying.
1:13:57>> Yeah.
1:13:58>> There's nothing technical about the
1:14:00business usually in the in the first
1:14:01>> you also need to give them a direction
1:14:03right aspiration.
1:14:07So an individual may be satisfied with
1:14:11doing a 9 to 5 job and
1:14:18you motivate him and then he's happy to
1:14:21work till 8 9 and deliver more.
1:14:26You incentivize him.
1:14:28You excite him. You know it's it's it's
1:14:30a combination of a whole heap of things.
1:14:32Do you have a checklist like these are
1:14:34the these are three or five specific
1:14:37things that you want to see before you
1:14:39decide whether you will enter this
1:14:41business or not. So potential of course
1:14:43is clear not lossm that's also clear not
1:14:49severely indebted I'm I'm a very data
1:14:52averse person so cash flows
1:14:57>> the product itself the future the
1:14:59competition
1:15:01>> so you wouldn't do because we
1:15:03established that in the beginning also
1:15:05but you wouldn't do heavy valuation
1:15:07business which might generate cash one
1:15:10day
1:15:10>> because I can create similar values and
1:15:13cash flows
1:15:16with other opportunities. There's no
1:15:18shortage of opportunities today. But
1:15:20haven't you seen these large technology
1:15:22businesses?
1:15:24They have they've gotten built because
1:15:27they were not profit generating for 10,
1:15:3015, 20 years.
1:15:32>> But you need those kind of pockets to
1:15:33sustain them as well.
1:15:35>> M
1:15:36so you wouldn't invest like a VC in
1:15:39somebody.
1:15:39>> We do. M
1:15:41>> so we've got a fund
1:15:43>> which [clears throat] is doing not
1:15:45startups but second stage startups.
1:15:47>> So it's a small fund below 1,000 crores
1:15:50at this stage but it's doing exceedingly
1:15:53well.
1:15:54Uh
1:15:56so I think we seven or eight times
1:16:00mark to market from our investment
1:16:02values.
1:16:03>> Nice.
1:16:03>> So we do things like this at a family
1:16:05level. We do invest. So we've got
1:16:07investments in preIPO companies.
1:16:10uh
1:16:12one of whom was going to go to the
1:16:14markets and then yanked the IPO. So at a
1:16:18family office level we doing uh a lot of
1:16:21all this kind of stuff
1:16:24but from a corporate perspective I also
1:16:27have to
1:16:29the one bet I took for the long term and
1:16:31it's taking longer than long was FMCG.
1:16:36>> Now our losses are down to single digits
1:16:38in a month. M
1:16:40>> so that's a very strong improvement but
1:16:43it will still take me 3 years to start
1:16:45making money so it's been a very long
1:16:48bet
1:16:49>> m
1:16:50>> so you know I'm
1:16:51>> but are you optimistic on FM3G
1:16:52>> now yes now I think we've got it right
1:16:55>> you lost hope in middle
1:16:57>> I didn't lose hope it was you see
1:17:00guilt-free
1:17:02was a very narrow segment to be in
1:17:05>> better for you is a much better segment
1:17:08because it's not guiltree
1:17:10>> but it's less guilt.
1:17:13>> So it's 40% less trans fat. It's not fat
1:17:16free.
1:17:16>> Yeah.
1:17:17>> For example.
1:17:18>> So you're with 2 Yam you're changing
1:17:20this.
1:17:20>> So 2 Yam is is getting traction now. Uh
1:17:24the product is doing well. It's very
1:17:26well accepted. Uh
1:17:29>> what did you get wrong about 2 Yam in
1:17:31the beginning?
1:17:32>> It was too narrow. Uh it was too niche
1:17:34and narrow a product segment.
1:17:36>> But you didn't see it that time that it
1:17:37would be. We didn't realize it.
1:17:39>> You thought it'll be big enough.
1:17:42We didn't know enough to know that it
1:17:44was a again it was a McKenzie
1:17:49le initiative
1:17:52and I think even they didn't realize
1:17:56that this is going to be so niche
1:17:59because the thing was that health
1:18:02fitness
1:18:04well-being is a major thing and
1:18:07therefore this will work very well. So
1:18:09it got eyeballs.
1:18:11>> Mhm.
1:18:12>> But a macana gets only consumed so much,
1:18:14right?
1:18:15>> Yeah.
1:18:16>> Or a kakra gets consumed only so much.
1:18:19And those who consume kakra and want the
1:18:22authentic kakra, not a factory kakra. So
1:18:25those were things that we discovered.
1:18:27>> There was not enough of macana
1:18:28plantation.
1:18:30So to source macana was a problem. It's
1:18:32very freight intensive
1:18:35and we were away. We were into niche
1:18:37products.
1:18:39So until you have a mass product,
1:18:43>> it doesn't really give you
1:18:46volume. And if you don't have volume and
1:18:48scale, distributors don't treat you with
1:18:51the same kind of attention and respect.
1:18:53That's why we got into chips
1:18:56>> and that's doing exceedingly well and
1:18:58that's driven the whole thing up
1:18:59>> and now that's working out.
1:19:02Tell me one specific
1:19:05transformation or one acquisition or one
1:19:08industry where you got it wrong.
1:19:11>> Well, we acquired uh this chemical
1:19:13company called Aquaarm.
1:19:14>> Okay.
1:19:16>> Uh it was an expensive acquisition
1:19:19and we went with our philosophy of
1:19:22retaining the entire management. It was
1:19:24a familyrun company. We didn't realize
1:19:28that large sections of the family were
1:19:30actually running each section.
1:19:33And so when the family went out of
1:19:35management,
1:19:38the so-called professionals people
1:19:41were not capable enough.
1:19:43>> Mhm.
1:19:44>> And it took us a year to realize that.
1:19:46So we lost business that one year.
1:19:50>> So there was no point to revive that.
1:19:52>> No, no, it's on the path of revival now.
1:19:54Mhm.
1:19:55>> But we lost about 12 months to realize
1:19:58it and then to recruit people it's taken
1:20:00us about 7 8 months.
1:20:01>> M
1:20:02>> and you know now it's on the path to
1:20:04revival
1:20:06>> but what industry or what specific
1:20:08business?
1:20:09>> So that's chemical. So it's it's that's
1:20:11phosphonates.
1:20:12>> Okay. And
1:20:12>> but it's reviving. So reviving that
1:20:15long-term failure. Third largest
1:20:16producer of phosphonates in the world.
1:20:19>> So
1:20:19>> so that's a big company. It's a big
1:20:20company,
1:20:21>> but we messed it up honestly
1:20:26>> because they acquired a familyun
1:20:27business and then they
1:20:28>> we didn't realize that in a familyun
1:20:30business the family is so involved
1:20:33that you don't have professional
1:20:34management. We had acquired
1:20:35professionally managed or multinational
1:20:37owned companies and there the
1:20:39professional management in each case was
1:20:41good.
1:20:41>> What would be your biggest crisis moment
1:20:44in life where you turned around
1:20:46something from crisis?
1:20:48>> [sighs]
1:20:48>> Several several but I think
1:20:51>> give me two biggest
1:20:53and tell me the exact story. What was
1:20:56the crisis? What happened? What did you
1:20:58do? How did it turn out?
1:20:59>> So the biggest was where
1:21:05our competitor in the Kolkata power
1:21:07distribution business was our regulator.
1:21:13That was
1:21:17the state electricity board was the
1:21:19regulator and they were competing with
1:21:21us.
1:21:22>> The power minister didn't like my father
1:21:24and he didn't like me.
1:21:27He had said one of he was a vice
1:21:29chancellor of the Jadapur University
1:21:32and he said that a certain student of
1:21:35his who was working in the company
1:21:38should become managing director. M
1:21:40>> and I was a kid and I told him I said
1:21:42sir but then he will not work for me
1:21:44he'll work for you
1:21:46>> so why would I do that quite apart from
1:21:49the fact that he was not capable of
1:21:51being the number one person in in the
1:21:53company good capable individual but not
1:21:59for that position.
1:22:00>> Yeah.
1:22:01>> So he was annoyed.
1:22:05Then he said you have to back down your
1:22:07stations.
1:22:10and you have to buy from the state
1:22:12electricity board.
1:22:14So
1:22:16then there was a penalty for not being
1:22:18at 80% plant load factor. Now you can be
1:22:22at 80% plant load factor but he's
1:22:25forcing you to back down to 30%.
1:22:29>> You have to buy from the state lexity
1:22:31board at a rupee higher than your cost
1:22:34of generation.
1:22:37And then he's saying you're inefficient.
1:22:39Your plant is operating at 30%.
1:22:43So you're an inefficient operator.
1:22:48We are buying forced to buy from the
1:22:50state electricity board at higher rates.
1:22:52And he saying your rates are higher.
1:22:56So it was a
1:22:58and in those days it was the late '9s
1:23:03the approach was that don't confront
1:23:06or don't take a panga with the
1:23:08government.
1:23:08>> Mhm.
1:23:10>> So they kept giving statement after
1:23:12statement after statement after
1:23:13statement and we were not giving the
1:23:15facts.
1:23:17>> So we went to court.
1:23:20>> So we won at the Kolkata High Court.
1:23:25Then the industry lobby bat chamber and
1:23:29the jute lobby Indian jute manufacturers
1:23:31association
1:23:34went against us to the supreme court.
1:23:38>> We won there. Then the same industry
1:23:41lobbies
1:23:43went against us and said that it has to
1:23:46go to a division bench of the Supreme
1:23:47Court.
1:23:49We won there
1:23:51and that period was an intensely
1:23:54difficult period
1:23:56because
1:23:59it was the might of the whole Bengal
1:24:01industry
1:24:03>> which was working against us plus the
1:24:06Bengal government
1:24:09>> through the power minister
1:24:11>> and then how did it get solved then?
1:24:13>> Because we when the courts Yeah. High
1:24:15Court, Supreme Court, then Supreme
1:24:17Court, division bench. So that period of
1:24:19five years was very stressful.
1:24:21>> Did you think at any point you'll be
1:24:23done?
1:24:26>> You know, at that point in time, I was
1:24:27not I I wouldn't have got a buyer
1:24:29otherwise I was at the point where I
1:24:30said, "Let me sell it."
1:24:32>> But you thought that you like this
1:24:34business is done. It's finished.
1:24:36>> I didn't think the business was
1:24:37finished. I just didn't think it was
1:24:39worth that effort and that pain and that
1:24:43trauma.
1:24:46Uh in hindsight it was but at that point
1:24:50in time I definitely felt it wasn't.
1:24:52>> So do you thank God that thank God we
1:24:55didn't find a buyer today [laughter]
1:24:56that day?
1:24:58>> We did look for a buyer because I we
1:25:00believe we would not find a buyer.
1:25:02>> Okay.
1:25:02>> So whether we would have or we would not
1:25:04have we don't know.
1:25:07And can you very
1:25:10naive question can someone with so much
1:25:14power money billions of dollars change a
1:25:17minister?
1:25:18>> I don't think it's
1:25:20>> that easy.
1:25:20>> It's not easy.
1:25:21>> You can't get the elected person changed
1:25:25>> elected or unelected. I mean we couldn't
1:25:28we didn't manage.
1:25:31We didn't succeed in doing anything like
1:25:32this. Have you seen in India that with
1:25:35money you can support a political party
1:25:39and actually turn around the narratives
1:25:43purely with money
1:25:45not saying and you have to undermine the
1:25:48capabilities of a politician you know
1:25:51you have to make a distinction between
1:25:54Narendra Modi's India and the India
1:25:56before that
1:25:58Narendra Modi's India it is not possible
1:26:03You have to be efficient. You have to be
1:26:05contributing towards the sector that
1:26:07you're in. And he has transformed India.
1:26:11It's become transparent. It's become
1:26:15efficient. It's become competitive. It's
1:26:19across the world. People look at India
1:26:23with dignity, respect. And that is
1:26:26because of Narendai
1:26:28>> because of the way our prime minister
1:26:31has
1:26:32led the country.
1:26:35So I think today's world I don't think
1:26:37it's possible at all.
1:26:40In the past I don't know. I was maybe
1:26:43too young, maybe too naive to understand
1:26:46it. I can't really say.
1:26:49But there like how in
1:26:54how when we read or at least what we've
1:26:58been reading since we were kids on
1:27:01random tabloids and random people
1:27:03creating content that it's so easy to
1:27:05lobby and just change ministers by
1:27:09supporting XYZ person.
1:27:11>> You know today social media also a false
1:27:13narrative
1:27:14>> Yeah.
1:27:15>> can be sponsored.
1:27:18>> Mhm. And you know it spreads and
1:27:21particularly negativity spreads because
1:27:23people
1:27:25love consuming that kind of
1:27:28>> uh reel or uh bite or whatever it is.
1:27:31>> But you know I think these things remain
1:27:33for a short period
1:27:36eventually the truths and reality
1:27:39prevails.
1:27:42>> Do you get political pressure?
1:27:46You are
1:27:48you are in a state where
1:27:51>> did we get political pressure? Yes.
1:27:55>> Do we get political pressure? No.
1:27:57>> Okay. [laughter]
1:28:01>> Okay. Coming to your family now. Okay. I
1:28:04want to understand I last podcast also
1:28:08you know I asked you this in our
1:28:13off- camerara conversation also I asked
1:28:15you this that this
1:28:17years of legacy hundreds of years how
1:28:21200 years
1:28:22>> yeah 220
1:28:23>> 220 years
1:28:27the business is running in the family
1:28:28since 220 years and it's only expanding
1:28:31and getting bigger and bigger
1:28:35Majority [clears throat] businesses they
1:28:37don't last up to second or third
1:28:39generation
1:28:41[snorts]
1:28:41right
1:28:44I mean
1:28:45>> someone up there is blessing us
1:28:48>> but it's you guys were there
1:28:53when we were not even a democratic India
1:28:57then democratic India then governments
1:28:59kept changing then emergency happened
1:29:02then There was a time where we didn't
1:29:04know who is becoming prime minister.
1:29:07Right. From that to now stability like
1:29:09you've seen phases and from one
1:29:12generation to another to another to
1:29:13another. You're seventh generation
1:29:15right?
1:29:15>> Yeah.
1:29:16>> Seventh
1:29:18there must be some
1:29:20core principle or core value which runs
1:29:24in your family. What is that? What are
1:29:26like two or three ingredients which you
1:29:29have learned from your parents or
1:29:31grandparents and you have to make it a
1:29:33point that you teach it to your kids as
1:29:35well so the business just keeps going.
1:29:38>> So one is
1:29:40reinvent yourself and don't be emotional
1:29:43about getting out of businesses which
1:29:46are not going to be relevant.
1:29:49>> Okay.
1:29:50>> So we started off as bankers to the East
1:29:53India Company.
1:29:55then went into joot textiles tea
1:29:59>> bankers.
1:30:00>> Yeah, we were bankers to the East India
1:30:02Company. Hind commercial bank used to
1:30:04belong to my family. Then got into Jude
1:30:08textile tea
1:30:11then into carbon black
1:30:14>> then into tires
1:30:16>> then into electricity
1:30:20then into
1:30:22technology.
1:30:24you know, and it just kept you keep
1:30:27changing your portfolio with time.
1:30:30So, you get into industries that are
1:30:35promising as opposed to industries that
1:30:38are sunset.
1:30:40>> And be dispassionate about divestments.
1:30:44>> Uh so that is one thing that's ingrained
1:30:47into us
1:30:48>> like don't be emotional about business.
1:30:49>> Don't be emotional about business.
1:30:52The second thing was that
1:30:56you be fair in your dealings.
1:31:09I think if you are fair in your dealings
1:31:12at some stage
1:31:15there is some kind of a credit balance
1:31:17in
1:31:19uh you know some books
1:31:22someone's eyes
1:31:24>> you know uh so I think fairness of
1:31:28dealing
1:31:29>> uh was important [clears throat]
1:31:31>> and basically just being compassionate.
1:31:36So people who work with you, who work
1:31:40for you,
1:31:44not only root for you, but they pray for
1:31:46you.
1:31:47>> Have you ever taken a decision based on
1:31:49emotions?
1:31:50Because that's a core value that you've
1:31:52learned from your parents, not be
1:31:53emotional. But I'm sure you must have
1:31:56done it. I think uh
1:32:01we invested in building a school here
1:32:03which is now the city's best school.
1:32:07Yes, there was a need for a school
1:32:10but it was about
1:32:12giving back to society.
1:32:15The family has been here for 220 years.
1:32:20It's high time we give back something to
1:32:22society and build something that's world
1:32:25class international.
1:32:28So
1:32:30the school makes money but we are very
1:32:33clear that we've invested 500 crores in
1:32:36that project. We are not going to take
1:32:38back anything out of the school.
1:32:39Everything will go back into the school
1:32:42into developing the school into building
1:32:44the school. The hospital
1:32:48is Kolkata's number one hospital. We are
1:32:50building virtually a new hospital in the
1:32:53same premises.
1:32:55That is again an emotional decision.
1:32:59The hospital will make money. It's it's
1:33:01a profitable business.
1:33:03>> But we are not taking dividends. We are
1:33:05not
1:33:06>> you know. So it's about these are things
1:33:08like you give back to society. The mall
1:33:10that we have
1:33:13>> Kolkata didn't have a single mall worth
1:33:18its name.
1:33:20So we said let's have a mall which has
1:33:22international brands
1:33:24and almost everyone we spoke with
1:33:27including consultants including property
1:33:30dealers property consultants the JLS of
1:33:33the world and whatever they all said
1:33:36luxury
1:33:39now that mall does exceedingly well but
1:33:41these were emotionbased decisions
1:33:44>> setting up management institutes
1:33:48emotion based decision ations
1:33:50getting into media
1:33:53was emotion based.
1:33:54>> Why?
1:33:55>> It's a good business but it was also a
1:33:58lot of emotion that went into that
1:34:00decision.
1:34:01So it wasn't so for the major businesses
1:34:05it wasn't but say Hook Global
1:34:09>> today is doing exceedingly well
1:34:12>> uh it's got 10 million subscribers or
1:34:16whatever
1:34:17>> paid subscribers
1:34:17>> paid so
1:34:21and that two in the space of a short
1:34:22space of maybe a year year and a half.
1:34:27So yes, the idea was to get into media,
1:34:31but was it purely commercial?
1:34:34No, it was a combination of
1:34:38the business of media and the emotion of
1:34:41media.
1:34:43>> Interesting. Why do you think Kolkata
1:34:46has lost the plot?
1:34:47>> Because of 49 years we had a we have had
1:34:50successive governments which have not
1:34:52worked.
1:34:56A simple answer.
1:34:57>> That's it.
1:34:58>> That's it.
1:34:59>> Because they were not pro business
1:35:00governments.
1:35:00>> They're neither pro business, they
1:35:02neither prodevelopment, they're neither
1:35:03pro city because they've not invested
1:35:07anything in the roads, in the
1:35:08infrastructure, in anything.
1:35:10>> Do you feel this government is going to
1:35:11be pro business?
1:35:14>> Oh yes. Not only pro business, but I
1:35:16think you can already see changes. You
1:35:19can see development beginning to happen.
1:35:21You can see projects beginning to
1:35:22happen.
1:35:24You can see,
1:35:28you can sort of smell
1:35:30development,
1:35:31>> progress and changes coming.
1:35:33>> But don't you think when a city or a
1:35:36state goes through 4950 years of
1:35:41a similar kind of thought process,
1:35:43right? Then the entire government
1:35:45offices like small small people from the
1:35:47root roots till the top everybody starts
1:35:51thinking that that culture become that.
1:35:52So somebody coming at top can't change
1:35:54it overnight. No,
1:35:55>> but you see there's been a massive
1:35:58change
1:36:00in the administration as well.
1:36:04And
1:36:05I think the BJP has a track record of
1:36:09delivering on development
1:36:12and infrastructure growth.
1:36:14>> M
1:36:15>> and you can already see that beginning
1:36:17to happen. You can see the change in the
1:36:20administration and their attitude. How
1:36:22were you able to go from when you took
1:36:25over the business? It was when you
1:36:27joined the business, it was 4,000
1:36:28crores.
1:36:29>> When I inherited the business, yeah, it
1:36:31was 4,000.
1:36:31>> 4,000 crores, right? And today is more
1:36:33than 1 lakh crores.
1:36:35>> Yeah.
1:36:35>> So from 4,000 crores to 1 lakh crores.
1:36:37That's marvelous.
1:36:40How did you transform this? How did you
1:36:43grow from 4,000 cr to one lakh cr in a
1:36:46state which was not prodevelopment? So
1:36:48my investments so far have not really
1:36:50been in the state.
1:36:52>> They've been outside the state. I live
1:36:53here,
1:36:54>> but I invested outside. I'm now going to
1:36:57invest here. [laughter]
1:37:01>> That's one of the biggest reasons for
1:37:02your growth. You think? [laughter]
1:37:04>> Yes, for sure.
1:37:05>> No. Really?
1:37:06>> Yeah.
1:37:09>> But there must
1:37:09>> it's a lovely city to live in.
1:37:12>> I mean, despite whatever people might
1:37:14say, it's a lovely city to live in.
1:37:16People are wonderful. They love you a
1:37:17lot.
1:37:19But it was not a great city to do
1:37:21business in. Today it is becoming a good
1:37:24city to do business in.
1:37:27>> And
1:37:29there must be some other reasons as
1:37:30well, right? What do you think
1:37:33personally? I know you believe in God. I
1:37:35know you believe in people. I know you
1:37:37believe in so many other things. But if
1:37:39you introspect and just you have to
1:37:41point out one specific trait about you,
1:37:45>> confidence.
1:37:48It's just that belief that I can do it
1:37:51and confidence which is not
1:37:53overconfidence.
1:37:56You [snorts] know what Sanjep sir which
1:37:58is something very fascinating. I've not
1:38:00told you this enough times
1:38:03actually I've never mentioned it to you.
1:38:05You have hunger.
1:38:07>> Mhm. How do you create hunger
1:38:12in somebody who's been born into money?
1:38:15You know, we never knew we had money.
1:38:16The family, I'm telling you,
1:38:19>> we never went. Yes, the house was
1:38:21Malaysia,
1:38:23>> but to us that was home. We We had never
1:38:26seen anything else. We didn't know
1:38:28anything else existed because we were
1:38:30kept sheltered from society. We went to
1:38:32a convent school
1:38:34>> between my cousin who was a year younger
1:38:36than me and I, we had six shirts
1:38:41and four shorts which we shared. M
1:38:45>> and that's all we had. There was no
1:38:48question of having anything else. We
1:38:50were not allowed to have anything else.
1:38:52My mother was a strict disciplinarian.
1:38:55>> But you would know right like this is
1:38:57just a discipline activity. At some
1:38:59point you would get to
1:39:00>> we were not we were kept away from
1:39:01everything. So we have money like
1:39:06but what money meant also we didn't
1:39:09know.
1:39:10>> So you thought your upper middle class
1:39:12or middle class? We didn't know what a
1:39:14middle class or or anything. We it was
1:39:16kept away from us. And in in school, we
1:39:20went to a school where the fees were 32
1:39:22rupees a month, which is what we paid.
1:39:26That's what everyone paid, right? And we
1:39:28had the least amount of pocket money to
1:39:30spend amongst everyone.
1:39:33So
1:39:35yes, we went in a car and many kids came
1:39:37in a bus. Uh so that was a difference.
1:39:41So that was our state of affluence.
1:39:44>> And the family had jute mills where the
1:39:46school went for a picnic every year.
1:39:49>> M. So you definitely knew you were
1:39:51something.
1:39:52>> Yeah. But it meant nothing to us.
1:39:54>> Okay.
1:39:55>> Right. And we were brought up with that
1:39:58very specific thing. My mother was very
1:40:02very particular
1:40:05that you will not spend, you will not
1:40:09waste, you will not indulge.
1:40:13So that's the way all of us grew up.
1:40:16>> But let's say now now your kids, they
1:40:18know, they know the privilege, they know
1:40:20the private jets, they know the
1:40:22billionaire lifestyle, they know this
1:40:23fancy office, they know art.
1:40:26>> They certainly do.
1:40:28>> They certainly do. And kids are far more
1:40:30exposed.
1:40:31>> Exactly. So how do you generate hunger
1:40:33in them so that they keep growing
1:40:36>> you know beyond a point it is for them
1:40:39to generate their own hunger. It's not
1:40:41for us as parents. It is for us to give
1:40:44them a good education good value systems
1:40:46good grounding
1:40:48>> then to grow or not grow
1:40:51is in their hands. We can only create an
1:40:54enabling environment. We can give them
1:40:56thoughts. We can give them an
1:40:58organization
1:41:00but to grow or not is up to them.
1:41:02>> What do you do? Give I'm I'm going to be
1:41:04very specific. Okay, this is a big
1:41:06problem I keep listening to from a lot
1:41:10of my family business friends, right?
1:41:12And their parents specifically.
1:41:15How do you keep kids away from getting
1:41:19extremely distracted in the world when
1:41:22you're born into riches? And what I mean
1:41:24by that is
1:41:28a kid who's born with
1:41:32millions and billions of dollars, knows
1:41:34about it, goes to the best school of the
1:41:36world, goes to the best college in the
1:41:38world, hangs out with other really rich
1:41:42people, right? So you have access to
1:41:46distractions, you have access to drugs,
1:41:49you have access to addictions, you have
1:41:51access to so many things which you can
1:41:52just be
1:41:54So constant communication
1:41:57and
1:42:00getting yourself in a position where
1:42:02you're not ordering them
1:42:06but they are taking seeking advice from
1:42:09you.
1:42:11So they have to respect you
1:42:14>> and not respect you because you're older
1:42:17but respect you because they genuinely
1:42:19respect you. Why? So they come to you
1:42:22voluntarily for advice.
1:42:24>> Two is you've taught them that these
1:42:28things are wrong. This is out of the
1:42:31question. This is maybe
1:42:36the third thing is you spend when you
1:42:39are.
1:42:42So yes, you will wear a certain
1:42:44>> brand or
1:42:45>> brand or a certain thing you will
1:42:47>> but you will not get like five shoes
1:42:50>> till you earn it then you spend it.
1:42:52>> What are you saying?
1:42:53>> So Shashwat now earns spends that's his
1:42:57call. He still at home is wearing this
1:43:02night suit
1:43:04which my mother had bought for him.
1:43:08She's not been she's gone like
1:43:12almost eight years now. Every day he
1:43:14wears it. It's got like holes. But he
1:43:17says it's so comfortable. I want to wear
1:43:19this.
1:43:20>> Which is the emotional value. Yeah.
1:43:22>> No, it's not only the emotional value,
1:43:23it's the comfort also. But this is an
1:43:25example. But he does.
1:43:27>> It's the same. So it's not that he
1:43:28doesn't spend, but he earns and he
1:43:32spends. That's fine.
1:43:32>> But how you do how do you instill this
1:43:34value is what I'm trying to understand.
1:43:36Because when you have access, majority
1:43:39of people will get ruined and they do.
1:43:42It's difficult to have them.
1:43:44>> It's about telling them that it's not
1:43:46about spending money.
1:43:49You can you you have enough to spend
1:43:51through your life,
1:43:52>> right?
1:43:55It's about earning respect.
1:43:58It's about creating something. It's
1:44:00about creating value. It's about
1:44:03enhancing the legacy or redefining the
1:44:05legacy that you've inherited.
1:44:08Uh it's about
1:44:14it's not that they are short of
1:44:18consumption or
1:44:20life. I mean their rooms are well
1:44:23furnished.
1:44:26They drive.
1:44:28His first luxury car came 3 years ago.
1:44:32>> Why would you not let him use your
1:44:34luxury car? He would, right?
1:44:36>> No, he wouldn't.
1:44:38>> Why?
1:44:39>> Why would he?
1:44:43We grew up,
1:44:45I grew up, and my cousins grew up not
1:44:49having access.
1:44:51My parents and grandfather and all had
1:44:54uh the Mercedes and this that and the
1:44:57other of the world.
1:44:59If we went with them then to that extent
1:45:01we used it. If Shashwat
1:45:03>> went with us then he used it
1:45:05>> but on his own no he had his own car so
1:45:08that was a luxury. His wife had her own
1:45:11car but today they may have luxury cars
1:45:14but till 3 years ago they didn't.
1:45:16>> Why do you set such such rules though?
1:45:19Doesn't it create some level of [snorts]
1:45:25distance between you and them? Because
1:45:29they'll be like a kid would be like,
1:45:31"Hey, I know my father's rich. I know.
1:45:34Why can't I access it? What's the
1:45:35point?"
1:45:36>> Because we've explained to him that
1:45:37>> the concept is you earn it.
1:45:39>> It's it's it's for your benefit.
1:45:42And if you would really want to do it,
1:45:44we would still say no.
1:45:48But do it. But this is why we believe
1:45:50you should not be doing it.
1:45:52>> Have you seen it in in your family or in
1:45:55friends where they've also set certain
1:45:57ground rules and have taught their kids
1:45:59like that? It is not
1:46:01>> my brother's kids would be growing up
1:46:03exactly the same way.
1:46:04>> Yeah.
1:46:06>> Yeah. But like
1:46:06>> because that these values come from my
1:46:08mother.
1:46:09>> Fair. But have you seen that where it
1:46:12has not worked out
1:46:14in some friend family member need not to
1:46:18point it out
1:46:18>> enough enough examples of
1:46:21>> it has not worked out and what do you
1:46:23think what went wrong there
1:46:25>> because they came as dictarts
1:46:27and there was no conviction of the
1:46:30parents themselves
1:46:31and there was they were feeling very
1:46:34unhappy
1:46:44So you're you're almost like feeling
1:46:46guilty about not giving the child.
1:46:48>> Should you not?
1:46:49>> No. Why should you?
1:46:52You you're giving him good education.
1:46:54You're giving him a good life. A luxury
1:46:56good life and a luxury life are two
1:46:58different things. He has the means to a
1:47:01luxury life.
1:47:04But he has to earn the right to the
1:47:06luxury life.
1:47:07>> But now do you see difference in the way
1:47:10parenting or value is going down
1:47:14to your grandkids?
1:47:16Is it a difference?
1:47:17>> I think they're definitely more indulged
1:47:18than our kids were. They are more
1:47:20exposed. There is a why for everything.
1:47:24Why not for everything?
1:47:29So if you are eating an ice cream and
1:47:31you're saying no to me, why are you
1:47:33saying a no to me?
1:47:36Uh and you have to explain rationally.
1:47:40You can't say I'm old and you're young.
1:47:41That doesn't work with them. They want
1:47:43the full explanation,
1:47:45which is good.
1:47:46>> Yeah,
1:47:47>> which is good. So there's a difference.
1:47:50They're definitely indulged. Their
1:47:51parents want them to have
1:47:54>> the best class of life. all all the
1:47:57toys, all the
1:47:58>> the best class life. Yes.
1:48:00>> But that's their prerogative. As
1:48:03grandparents,
1:48:05we have a perspective. But it's for the
1:48:08parents to
1:48:09>> figure out
1:48:10>> to figure out.
1:48:11>> But would you spoil your grandkids?
1:48:14Do you spoil your grandkids?
1:48:16>> Well, my children definitely believe I
1:48:18do. [laughter]
1:48:21>> So, you're a strict father, but not a
1:48:23strict grandfather. [laughter]
1:48:26You know, I think uh
1:48:30I'm definitely less strict than I was
1:48:32with the children,
1:48:34but uh
1:48:36my children believe I'm very liberal
1:48:39with the grandkids. So, I don't know.
1:48:41[clears throat]
1:48:41>> They would know because if they've had
1:48:42the life that you're describing,
1:48:45[laughter] definitely they would feel
1:48:47like that. Tell me one
1:48:51trait about you which you want
1:48:55your grandkids to learn from you.
1:48:57>> I would say faith.
1:49:01Faith in a supernatural power in God.
1:49:05For me that is what has kept me going in
1:49:08the worst moments.
1:49:11>> You know uh
1:49:14the very fact that
1:49:19It's a sense of security
1:49:23that there's someone with you.
1:49:26Uh
1:49:28there is a supreme power who will look
1:49:30after you if it were to become really
1:49:33bad or the going were to become really
1:49:35dull. And that has given me a lot of
1:49:38strength and the ability to navigate
1:49:40through multiple
1:49:43major crisis in my life.
1:49:47And I sincerely hope that they
1:49:52they see the merit in what I'm saying.
1:49:55>> Why do you believe in God so much? I
1:49:58believe in God.
1:49:59>> See your why.
1:50:01>> I don't know the why honestly. Uh but I
1:50:05do. I mean and for me this is uh it's
1:50:10like
1:50:12constant
1:50:14you know it's
1:50:15>> but why do you keep it why do you have
1:50:16>> it's a sense of security
1:50:18>> and since you were a kid you
1:50:20>> since yeah my father used to do it
1:50:23probably I've seen him do it
1:50:25>> I've also got I've also become like I
1:50:29think I also started believe in
1:50:33believing in God since I was a kid
1:50:36because I saw or my mom and dad,
1:50:39>> you know,
1:50:39>> I still don't have why why do I do that?
1:50:41But it's just a thing that
1:50:42>> and faith is subjective, right?
1:50:46You either believe or you don't.
1:50:57that
1:51:00destiny is written.
1:51:03>> So in a way what is going to happen is
1:51:06at a macro level maybe even at a micro
1:51:08level defined
1:51:11and it is due to the deeds or misdeeds
1:51:14of my previous life. What I do now will
1:51:18take me maybe to the next life.
1:51:21And uh I have done for example
1:51:25past life regression
1:51:29and I was able to go back a couple of
1:51:31lives
1:51:34and that has explained a number of
1:51:36things to me.
1:51:38Why I think like this or why am I scared
1:51:41of something or
1:51:43etc.
1:51:44>> Give me an example of what you learned.
1:51:46>> Okay, I'll give you another instance.
1:51:48There was a phase where I was having uh
1:51:51a mental battle with somebody
1:51:54and I was extremely irritated,
1:51:56frustrated, angry,
1:51:59everything.
1:52:00Something negative happened to him
1:52:04and I said a
1:52:08okay. And I was genuinely pleased that
1:52:12something negative had happened.
1:52:14Three months later,
1:52:16the same thing happened to me
1:52:20with greater intensity, the same
1:52:22negative.
1:52:25And then I said
1:52:28it comes back to haunt you.
1:52:32>> So there is somebody up there who was
1:52:35saying
1:52:38you did this now I'm going to whack you
1:52:40harder.
1:52:42So, you know, it comes back.
1:52:44>> Has your life gotten better
1:52:47>> because of believing in God? Because of
1:52:52believing in past life sessions, because
1:52:55of believing in everything that you just
1:52:57spoke about?
1:52:58>> I'm very happy in my life. I'm I'm
1:53:00actually in a very happy state. I'm uh
1:53:03I'm not content because I want to do
1:53:06more things, but I'm very happy.
1:53:09>> What makes you sad? If anyone from my
1:53:11family has said,
1:53:15for me the biggest
1:53:19grief so far has been my mother towards
1:53:24the end of her life crying in pain.
1:53:28That is something that doesn't get away
1:53:29from me.
1:53:31And I as a son was helpless. She had
1:53:34cancer. The cancer had eaten up her
1:53:36spine.
1:53:38So no spine existed.
1:53:41So when she was lying she was fine. The
1:53:43moment you would prop her up she would
1:53:46cry in agony. At those moments I
1:53:50I mean
1:53:54even to date after so many years
1:53:58that is something that is my worst
1:54:01moment of life.
1:54:04Do you
1:54:06do you get sad when people hate you?
1:54:08>> Yes.
1:54:11>> That is does it bother you when
1:54:15people hate you or accuse you of
1:54:17something or troll you?
1:54:19>> So when people
1:54:21hate me,
1:54:24it depends on who they are. If they are
1:54:26relevant to me, it makes me very sad.
1:54:30Trolling used to bother me a lot.
1:54:33initially.
1:54:35I can't say it doesn't bother me today,
1:54:37but it bothers me much less than it used
1:54:39to say a year ago and even less than it
1:54:43used to maybe two years ago.
1:54:46But I've had a situation in my life
1:54:48several times
1:54:51where I've had structured organized
1:54:57campaigns against me
1:55:00by near and dear ones.
1:55:04Initially I didn't realize that people
1:55:08close to me were doing this kind of a
1:55:09thing. They were false. heart. They were
1:55:14spread with so much conviction that
1:55:16almost everyone believed that what they
1:55:18were saying was true.
1:55:22Over a period of time, the truth
1:55:24prevailed.
1:55:26>> I've had this in business.
1:55:28What I'm saying was even as a kid within
1:55:31my larger family, we've had this these
1:55:34situations.
1:55:39Now you have
1:55:42other people who do it. They may feel
1:55:44hurt. They may feel jealous. They may
1:55:46feel agrieved
1:55:50for multiple reasons or maybe different
1:55:53reasons.
1:55:56But
1:55:58so a malified
1:56:00criticism doesn't really impact me.
1:56:06If I've made a mistake, I'm the first
1:56:08one to go and say I'm sorry.
1:56:12And I would [clears throat] have no ego
1:56:14in terms of going and apologizing.
1:56:17But if somebody gets hurt
1:56:20by something I've done, that causes me
1:56:23to lose sleep. I may not express
1:56:27it, but it causes me to lose sleep. And
1:56:30that is a point when I need to reflect
1:56:33and start thinking of what
1:56:37did I do that I shouldn't repeat.
1:56:42Not that it always happens. You do land
1:56:45up repeating these things sometimes but
1:56:48definitely the frequency gets much less
1:56:51and the spacing between these incidents
1:56:53gets much wider. And how do you deal
1:56:58with the time when you get to know that
1:57:02your loved ones
1:57:05are organizing or maybe
1:57:08spreading hate against you?
1:57:09>> It's very stressful.
1:57:11>> How do you deal with that?
1:57:15How can you have a prescribed formula?
1:57:19You deal with different people
1:57:21differently. With some you go and
1:57:25Talk it out if it helps.
1:57:29With some it becomes indifference.
1:57:33With some it becomes dislike.
1:57:38It's different depending upon the
1:57:41individual. Depending upon
1:57:44the period in your life, it depending
1:57:46upon
1:57:50how confident you are of yourself, how
1:57:53secure you are in your own skin because
1:57:56the more secure you are, the less you
1:57:59react, right?
1:58:01Uh and the less it bothers you. But it
1:58:04is very stressful. It is very stressful.
1:58:09And when there are people who are very
1:58:11close to you, it's the worst. But it's a
1:58:15reality.
1:58:16>> Tell me one trait about you which you
1:58:18don't
1:58:20which you don't want your family or your
1:58:23grandkids to have.
1:58:25>> I rely on my instincts
1:58:28a lot.
1:58:29>> How is that a bad thing? I don't know
1:58:30whether it's good or bad
1:58:32but
1:58:35I think the world is getting far more
1:58:38datadriven logic driven merit driven
1:58:42and the more that AI will come into play
1:58:47I mean people like me will still use
1:58:48instincts but I think
1:58:52two generations later
1:58:54who's to say whether instincts will have
1:58:56a role or
1:58:59I think instincts will I'm a big
1:59:02believer the the more and more the world
1:59:05becomes more data oriented people with
1:59:07strong instincts will have an edge over
1:59:09people who are just datadriven
1:59:12obviously data
1:59:12>> I would like to believe so because
1:59:14frankly if it's only datadriven or if
1:59:16it's if it's an algorithm driven then
1:59:19what is the difference between A and B
1:59:21>> and I also feel art will only be created
1:59:24by creativity will only be created by
1:59:27instincts. This data and logic cannot
1:59:30do. You have to be logicless. You have
1:59:32to
1:59:33>> AI cannot create an emotion to my mind.
1:59:36>> Exactly.
1:59:37>> But who would have believed that AI can
1:59:40do all that AI is doing today.
1:59:41[laughter]
1:59:44>> Fair. Never say never. The moment we say
1:59:47this, 2 days later, somebody will drop
1:59:50some some new update and then this will
1:59:53be wrong. Yeah, I agree with that part.
1:59:55That's scary. I I but I feel that
1:59:59people with original thinking
2:00:02will create keep creating art and
2:00:05original thinking only comes from
2:00:06instinct where you're a little
2:00:07delusional where you go against the
2:00:10tide.
2:00:11Just go with the gut.
2:00:12>> You know, sometimes Yeah. It's just that
2:00:14[clears throat] some bones in your body
2:00:16tell you that this is right.
2:00:18>> Yeah. And you can't explain it.
2:00:20>> You can't explain it. There's no logic
2:00:22to that feeling.
2:00:24And when you get at least when I get
2:00:26that I I say
2:00:29you know and you know it's the right
2:00:31time
2:00:33and more often than not it works out.
2:00:35>> Yeah. You can have a cap on the risk
2:00:37you're taking but you have to do it
2:00:39something out of just instinct and guts.
2:00:44>> True. True. Okay. Here's a question that
2:00:46I ask everyone. Okay. In the end these
2:00:49days I've started doing it.
2:00:53When were you most anxious in your life?
2:00:57when I heard my daughter
2:01:01cry in pain through her labor
2:01:06and uh I was two floors below
2:01:11and I could hear her two floors below
2:01:15and her father-in-law and I were sitting
2:01:17there
2:01:19and both of us
2:01:22had tears because we said this
2:01:25suffering
2:01:30and she refused to take an epidural. We
2:01:32wanted a natural delivery
2:01:35and obviously the
2:01:38that was it was anxiety
2:01:43and you were you didn't know when it
2:01:45will end what was
2:01:46>> to say
2:01:47>> and wow how do you deal with I I can't
2:01:51even ask you that because but if you
2:01:55ever get anxious again or if you have
2:01:56gotten anxious again
2:01:59how do you personally deal with it is
2:02:01there a framework is Is there something
2:02:02which helps you get back? Is there some
2:02:05mental framework, breathing technique? I
2:02:08don't know.
2:02:09>> I do a puja.
2:02:12>> So at that time you were doing puja.
2:02:14>> Yes,
2:02:16I was doing the anaman chalisa.
2:02:18>> That helps you.
2:02:19>> It helps me.
2:02:22So when I sleep
2:02:25there is a hanuman chalisa underneath my
2:02:27pillow. I mean over the years I know it
2:02:29by heart
2:02:31>> but
2:02:32it's still there.
2:02:34>> Last question we'll end it this way is
2:02:37what's the cost
2:02:40of
2:02:42being Sanjief Goinka of being
2:02:48a chairman of multi-billion dollar
2:02:52conglomerate. I think people have
2:02:54expectations
2:02:58and you have to live up to those
2:02:59expectations
2:03:01and the pressure of those expectations
2:03:04is sometimes a burden.
2:03:06>> What cost did you pay personally?
2:03:09>> So very often you I mean the receiving
2:03:12end is more often than not the wife.
2:03:16Uh so the frustration comes out on her
2:03:20if you're short on time.
2:03:23It's her time that goes away.
2:03:27If you're frustrated,
2:03:30you scream at her. So, you know, uh, and
2:03:35that's a big cost.
2:03:37>> The relationship cost.
2:03:38>> Fortunately, Prii has been
2:03:40understanding,
2:03:41but
2:03:43in hindsight, very often, I feel that
2:03:47she deserved better.
2:03:50uh I didn't need to give her
2:03:53>> hard time.
2:03:54>> I mean my sense my part of the suffering
2:03:57in that manner
2:04:00and because she knew what it was
2:04:03she took it well but at the same time
2:04:07it's not pleasant. But now that you know
2:04:09that
2:04:10>> now I've
2:04:13I think I'm a lot less
2:04:18uh expressive you know I learned this uh
2:04:22principle in one conference I attended
2:04:26it was exactly around this then so the
2:04:30speaker was speaking about he used to
2:04:33call it honey I'm home energy
2:04:36so every time you're home. You tell
2:04:39yourself, "Honey, I'm home." And then
2:04:42you shift your entire state and energy
2:04:44into something else because you can't
2:04:46bring your outside work here. And you
2:04:48have to have a very different energy at
2:04:50home because if you come with bad energy
2:04:53at home,
2:04:54>> everyone gets that.
2:04:55>> Everyone gets that. And you'll end up
2:04:57being frustrated. You'll end up
2:04:58screaming. You'll end up being just not
2:05:00nice to yourself also and to others.
2:05:02>> Yeah. And it's not pleasant.
2:05:03>> So every time you're home, honey, I'm
2:05:05home energy. and then you switch off
2:05:07every day.
2:05:08>> Yeah. The other cost is that if you're
2:05:12in a close group, you can be yourself.
2:05:14>> Yeah.
2:05:15>> But if you're in a group of people who
2:05:17are not necessarily close, then you get
2:05:21quoted and very often misqued.
2:05:24So you have to be very mindful of what
2:05:27you say.
2:05:28>> That's a big cost to pay because you
2:05:30can't be absolutely real everywhere.
2:05:32>> You can't.
2:05:33>> Do you are you conscious about it?
2:05:35>> Yes. You learned it hard way or you knew
2:05:37it?
2:05:37>> I got misqued very often.
2:05:39>> So you learned it the hard way?
2:05:40>> I learned it the hard way. But and
2:05:44now that some people
2:05:48know me or recognize me,
2:05:52one has to be even more careful.
2:05:55And you see Kolkata is a small society.
2:06:01So they
2:06:03they love quoting people. H
2:06:05>> so they'll say
2:06:10true but
2:06:12that is also true
2:06:14>> but you've not clarified it given the
2:06:16impression
2:06:20>> so you know I think that's the kind of a
2:06:22thing that
2:06:24so I for example I go for a morning walk
2:06:27>> and I walk with different people some of
2:06:29whom over the years have become closed
2:06:32>> so with them you can be open but many of
2:06:34them are walking with you because
2:06:38>> you are you
2:06:40>> you've had some minor achievement or
2:06:42whatever.
2:06:44>> Uh and
2:06:46there the propensity to quote
2:06:50and maybe subconsciously misquote is
2:06:54high. So there
2:06:56I've just learned to keep a smile
2:07:00and speak very little.
2:07:01>> What's biggest misunderstanding about
2:07:03you? I don't know.
2:07:06I really don't know. But
2:07:08>> what do you think? Where have you been
2:07:09misqued the most?
2:07:12Or what personality
2:07:15or character or trait you think people
2:07:17know about you, which is not true.
2:07:19>> I think most people now are getting to
2:07:21know me. The people I care for know me
2:07:24for who I am. M
2:07:27>> so all these campaigns and this
2:07:29maliciousness and all has dissipated.
2:07:33Yeah.
2:07:35>> All right. Thank you so much.
2:07:37>> Thank you Raj. It's always a pleasure.
2:07:39>> Thank you. It's my pleasure. I always
2:07:41enjoy talking to you and I always think
2:07:43about I love certain things but it goes
2:07:45to a different direction which is but
2:07:48I'm happy. Thank you so much for doing
2:07:49this. Can you [music] do one thing you
2:07:51know because I'm in Kolkata I've always
2:07:53wanted to try
2:07:55like when we go can you get jalmuri for
2:07:58us
2:07:58>> from somewhere
2:08:00by the time you finish first thing
2:08:02you'll have is jaluri
2:08:03>> okay perfect done
2:08:04>> can we get some jal muri organized
2:08:06rather
2:08:07>> thank you make it without coriander
2:08:09that's it everything else is okay and I
2:08:11eat spicy
2:08:12>> spicy for
2:08:14>> oilh everything's okay I just want to
2:08:16try huh china
2:08:20Yes. I want to try once. I've never
2:08:22eaten. I've always heard.
2:08:25>> So, we do our own version at home now.
2:08:28>> Okay. [music]
2:08:29>> So, it's it's a very so-called hairy
2:08:31version.
2:08:32>> Okay.
2:08:34>> But, uh, so once a week,
2:08:36>> nice. Thank you so much for watching
2:08:38this episode till the end. We would love
2:08:40to know what you liked or disliked about
2:08:43this episode and which guest you would
2:08:45like to see again on this show or which
2:08:48are the new guests that you want to see.
2:08:50Let us know in the comments. Your
2:08:52feedback helps us improve and make every
2:08:54episode a little better. I'll see you
2:08:57the next time. Until then, keep figuring
2:08:59out [music]
2:09:09[music]

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