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Salvatore "Sammy the Bull" Gravano interview with Diane Sawyer 1997 — Transcript

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0:01thank you everyone for subscribing to
0:03infinitely Productions if if you have
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0:08subscribe and we hope you enjoy our
0:14content Prim Time with anchors Diane
0:19Sawyer Sam
0:21Donaldson and chief correspondent Chris
0:25Wallace he helped put John Gotti the
0:27most powerful man in the MOB the find
0:30bars for Life John's a double Crosser
0:33I'm a master double Crosser now he walks
0:36Among Us free though he was once a
0:38deadly killer when you look at a total
0:40of 19 you know serial killers don't have
0:4319 tonight Sammy the bull Grano the most
0:47important mobster ever to turn emerges
0:50for his first television interview his
0:52farm as being a hit man I actually was
0:54good at it how could you not describe
0:56this man as a monster or a beast the
1:00families his brutal hits left behind
1:03he's running a muck all over the place
1:05time to go daily life in a Brotherhood
1:08of gangsters what did you say to
1:11yourselves when you're doing this to
1:13other people while we're at the table
1:14cutting up the money and the Godfather
1:17John Gotti described by his right-hand
1:19man I think his problem was that he fell
1:23in love with himself before he drops out
1:25of sight again is this every day of your
1:28life thinking about where you're going
1:29to go where you going to be who's going
1:31to know what who's going to be there
1:33Sammy the bull who changed sides and
1:36Changed History we played chess and he
1:40lost tonight Sammy the bull the man who
1:44brought down John
1:46Gotti good evening I'm Diane Sawyer
1:48tonight the mafia not a movie the real
1:51thing from the under boss the second in
1:54command of the most powerful mob family
1:56in America not long ago organized crime
1:59had had a strangle hold on most of
2:01America's major cities here in New York
2:04it was said you could hardly do business
2:06transport anything build a building
2:08without the mob somehow taking a piece
2:10of the action but 5 years ago the
2:13government struck a major blow against
2:14organized crime in part because of Samy
2:18the bull gravano who agreed to turn
2:20against the Gambino family and its boss
2:22John
2:23Gotti we should point out we do not know
2:26where Grano lives we agreed to meet him
2:28at an inn and a room R Valley in
2:31California but as you'll see amazingly
2:33he's not in Disguise he says he's
2:35prudent but he's not the kind of guy who
2:37lives in
2:38fear we don't know what you're going to
2:40think of him tonight all we know is that
2:43you've never heard a real story quite
2:45like this he is the government's prize
2:48witness salvator gravano Sammy the bull
2:52for years he has been living in the
2:54shadows protected by the US government
2:56from a long list of sworn enemies you
2:59can relate me to a soldier in Vietnam
3:02who killed hundreds of people maybe I
3:04was a soldier of Goan ostra I am a
3:07Hitman a Hitman the under boss emerging
3:11for his first and he says only interview
3:14before he Retreats into the shadows for
3:17good he agreed to talk on the condition
3:19that we provide former FBI agents for
3:22his protection and not broadcast until
3:24he had dropped safely out of
3:27sight here I am
3:30the mafia they have said you are the
3:33single most
3:35important witness ever to testify
3:38against the mob I think I am so there's
3:40a word that you use for people who turn
3:44right mhm who
3:46cooperate you trying to Goat me into the
3:49word is brat is that the word you like
3:52that's the word so are you a
3:55rat I look at it as I was betrayed I
4:00betrayed him double
4:02Crosser Master double Crosser John's a
4:05double Crosser I'm a master double
4:07Crosser we played chess and he lost hey
4:12John you going to beat it John Gotti
4:14boss of the Gambino family the most
4:16powerful crime family in the country the
4:20most glamorous mobster since Al Capone
4:23silver hair expensive clothes an
4:25All-American gangster flashing a smile
4:29while the law power has a way where you
4:33can believe after a while you can walk
4:35on water and I think this is what
4:38happened
4:39then at one time Gotti was such a
4:41national celebrity that when he went to
4:43trial for multiple murders someone
4:46played the theme from The Godfather
4:47while his supporters
4:51cheered and in the old days one man
4:54would have been right by his side if you
4:56take notice in the videos I'm always a
4:57step or two behind them raining I'm
5:00holding the umbrella we go near a car
5:02I'm opening the door they were literal
5:04partners in crime on the FBI
5:06surveillance tapes you can hear Gotti
5:08over background music in the room
5:10putting Sammy in control if got's
5:13arrested this is my
5:15[Music]
5:19wishes said
5:21I'm I don't I'm in C
5:27Sam were you Gotti's friend
5:30it's
5:31Pitbull and his
5:34friend a friend who one day decided to
5:36expose what he says is the truth about
5:38John Gotti and the murderous Mafia the
5:41judge would call it an act of Bravery
5:44what was the real reason you cooperated
5:46the real reason but was it to save your
5:49skin I was just tired of the mob and
5:52tired of fighting it was a door out of
5:55the
5:56mob you know I watched the David KES
5:59incident and and I used to say to myself
6:02how could these people get so
6:05brainwashed are they crazy are they nuts
6:08and then I look at myself in the mirror
6:10and I said brainwashed here I am on
6:12orders killing people left and
6:14right and uh I'm calling them
6:18brainwashed there was a book written
6:19said that you had a characteristic of
6:22committing
6:24murder with the nonchalance of somebody
6:27just pulling open a tab on a can of beer
6:29that was about all it phased you and
6:32about all it meant to you as far as
6:34being a Hitman I I I actually was good
6:36at it cuz you were fast and lethal and
6:41loyal I didn't I I I believed in the
6:43life when I was on your case I dropped
6:46everything look over the list of the
6:48murders you were involved in there how
6:51many
6:5219 serial killers don't have
6:5519 mhm we're worse than them but again
7:00putting it out Hollywood newspapers we
7:03only kill ourselves what are you worried
7:07about we don't bother the public seems
7:10to like us seems to like what we do look
7:13at John
7:15Gotti if I have 19 he has forget about
7:18what he's got when he ordered a hit he
7:21wanted it done
7:22yesterday he would send me to either
7:24supervise or control it or make sure the
7:27job got done
7:30and I obviously
7:33did when you're the boss you're giving
7:35the orders you're credited with all of
7:37them even if you're not on the street
7:38but you'll hear in this report how
7:40Gotti's attorneys say Grano is lying
7:42that it was Grano who instigated the
7:44murders I think he was a sociopath I
7:46think he committed homicides because if
7:48you had something he wanted Sam he'd
7:50kill you for it once a murderer always a
7:53murderer and they are allowing him to
7:56walk the streets Cindy de monardo father
7:59was killed by gravano so Was Dina meito
8:03how could you not describe this man as a
8:06monster or a
8:07beast all these women whose fathers were
8:10killed say it's an outrage that gravano
8:12went free after just 5 years in prison
8:15and now has his face on the cover of
8:17200,000 books about his life being
8:19published today guvano argues he has a
8:22right to his life story and says he's
8:24baffled at the way even the New York
8:26tabloids turn on you when you join up
8:28with the good guys media treated me real
8:30good before I cooperated I was a hero
8:33seemed like the more people you kill and
8:35the more things you do I mean you were a
8:36hero John still a hero and after you
8:40cooperate which is strange to me you
8:43become a rat stool pigeon a canary the
8:46worst scum of the earth to them we were
8:49anticipating this individual Sammy Grano
8:52to to help us devastate a significant
8:55amount of organized crime in New York
8:57City and that's the deal you make
9:01FBI agent George Gabriel who was there
9:03the night Gotti was arrested points out
9:05that gravano helped send more than 30
9:07Mobsters to prison after he decided to
9:09tell all Sammy Grano was somebody who
9:12was going to open the garage door to the
9:14workings and the the criminal activity
9:16of this family and not just against the
9:18people we already had but everybody else
9:20and Gano says he did tell everything not
9:23just about the mobsters and the
9:25murders but about all those Millions
9:28made from G ing the
9:30public I was making a couple of million
9:33a year John was making uh I would say
9:36anywhere between 5 and 20 million a year
9:39we rape the community on a constant
9:41basis in every way shape and form what
9:44did you say to yourselves when you're
9:47doing this to other people what do we
9:48say to ourselves why we're at the table
9:51cutting up the money we didn't say too
9:53much we just cut up the money it was uh
9:56it was for greed it's there's nothing
9:58there's no H in in in a lot of things
10:01that we
10:02do honor it's a word that will travel a
10:05tangled path in our story Grano still
10:09insists it was a search for Honor that
10:11brought him to the mob in the first
10:12place he was 31 and had been an
10:15associate in the mob for 8 years when he
10:17took the oath to become a maid man in
10:19the sacred ceremony he once pledged to
10:22keep a secret forever one by one they
10:25called us down the basement small little
10:28basement real seemed to be real crowded
10:31dim lights Real
10:34Smoky and when I walked
10:37down there was uh Paul Castellano Paul
10:42castalano boss of the Gambino family and
10:45uh he says if we ask you to kill for us
10:48would
10:49you I said
10:51yes and he asked me what finger would
10:54you pull the trigger and I pointed to my
10:58index finger
11:00the words were simple he says to place
11:02the Brotherhood above government God and
11:05family they tell you that day if your
11:09son is dying in bed with cancer and he's
11:12only got an hour left to live if we call
11:15for you you come immediately and leave
11:17his sight he says they pricked his
11:19trigger finger and put Blood on the
11:21picture of a saint which was set on fire
11:23in his hand he just said if you
11:27betray this
11:30Brotherhood may your soul burn like the
11:33saint you really believed in it with my
11:37heart and soul there's honor there's
11:40respect there's Integrity there's
11:42loyalty there's a Brotherhood there's a
11:44secret
11:46society
11:48uh and these are words that I wanted to
11:51hear and that I was totally loyal
11:54to but 14 years and a lot of lives later
11:58Sammy the bulr ano has betrayed that
12:00Brotherhood and the gangsters he once
12:02considered family have made him a Marked
12:06Man I know the danger is out there I
12:09know how they think I know what they're
12:12going to do I know their moves I know
12:14them I was part of them is this every
12:17day of your life thinking about where
12:19you're going to go where you're going to
12:20be who's going to know what who's going
12:22to be
12:25there I'm not going to worry about this
12:27every single day of my life I'm not
12:28going to to stay in uh in Montana
12:31someplace scared to death looking at of
12:33the blinds but if they walk in the door
12:36and they have the gun and they have the
12:38gun I'm going in the
12:42box simple as
12:44that by the way gravano told us that to
12:47become a maid man means your father has
12:49to be Italian and he says usually that
12:52you've participated in a murder when we
12:55come back how a Kid From Brooklyn became
12:57one of the mob's most feared
12:58executioners and John Gotti's right-hand
13:01Man Sammy Gano told us that a lot of
13:04members of the mob make it a point to
13:05read Machiavelli the Italian analyst of
13:08power at any cost well five centuries
13:11ago mavelli said there are two ways to
13:13survive be a fox who recognizes traps or
13:16a lion who scares away wolves as a
13:20little boy growing up in an Italian
13:21neighborhood near here Sammy Grano may
13:24have been a little bit of
13:25both in this house on A Street in
13:28Brooklyn Sammy Grano grew up he says in
13:30a bedroom studded with photos of Kagney
13:33and Bogart his parents immigrants from
13:35Sicily ran a small dress Factory what
13:38would your father have said if he had
13:40known that you were under boss of the
13:42Gambino family I guess it would have
13:45broke his
13:47heart just like it would break my heart
13:50if my son or my nephew or somebody went
13:52into the mob because I know their
13:53Destiny I know what they're going to do
13:56I know what kind of Life they're going
13:57to live
13:59they're going to murder their best
14:01friends they're going to lie and cheat
14:04their whole life Grano says when his
14:06father told him about the guys in the
14:08Slick suits hanging out on the tough
14:10streets of Bensonhurst New York the
14:12words he used were a mixed message these
14:15were our protectors we got to
14:18never inform on them uh or do anything
14:22to offend them
14:25and we have to stay away from them
14:29uh they're bad guys but they hour bad
14:32guys one day some of them noticed a
14:35scrappy little boy a few kids from
14:37around the corner they robbed my bike
14:41and I start fighting like crazy to get
14:43it back and uh across the street there
14:45was our local Mafia hangout and one of
14:48the guys rub my head and said uh he says
14:52look at him he's like a little bull
14:53Sammy the bull and it's stuck all my
14:56life the troublemaking kid was was held
14:59back in the fourth grade again in the
15:00seventh and kicked out of high school
15:02for breaking the principal's jaw I have
15:06theia and I have learning
15:08disabilities and I always had trouble
15:11with teachers Authority school and I
15:15thought I was really
15:16uh sick or demented or [ __ ] I don't
15:19know what I thought I was and the kids
15:22ridiculed you in the beginning until I
15:25gave a few of them a beating a good
15:27Swift punch would stop that I learned
15:31that real quick but are you really
15:32saying you went into the mob because you
15:35had an unhappy experience at school no
15:39no as I got older and when I did finally
15:42go into the mob it was for money it was
15:44for greed it was for women it was for
15:46fast cars it was being part of a society
15:50part of a
15:51Brotherhood you were sent away for a
15:54while right to the Army Yeah by a judge
15:57instead of going to prison when you came
15:59back you were standing at a fork in the
16:02road now basically I went right back
16:04right back to the old neighborhood right
16:06back to the corner I was doing loone
16:09shocking stealing cars doing
16:13burglaries breaking arm here break a leg
16:16there and two years in the mob bosses
16:18asked for something more
16:211970 you're what 24 25 years old they
16:26tell you to kill
16:27someone did you think of saying no
16:31no I knew that this was part of the life
16:37and whatever I was asked to do for the
16:39family to benefit the family I would do
16:43this is murder I knew sooner or later it
16:46would come that question would come the
16:50target Joe kuchi a 26-year-old brick
16:53layer a friend Gano says it was all part
16:55of a mob related love triangle what
16:59there was a great deception involved
17:00with it too you had to take this guy to
17:03dinner you had to lure him into the Trap
17:07right that's the way we killing the
17:09mob we were all out drinking together
17:13and uh at the end of the night on the
17:16way
17:19home I got in the back of the car and uh
17:22when we pulled away and we went down the
17:24block I shot him in the
17:27head
17:31twice the body was thrown out of the car
17:34on a quiet residential street where
17:36Grano shot him three more times in the
17:39back the next morning police were
17:41knocking on our door and you know they
17:45told me my brother was murdered Jackie
17:47kuchi Joe's little sister I couldn't
17:49imagine who would want to kill him he
17:52was with Sammy that night but we didn't
17:54know and we didn't find out until 22
17:55years later I remember something that
17:57surprised me that I had no remorse at
18:00all none I didn't feel sorry for him in
18:03the least I felt
18:07power I felt like my adrenaline and my
18:10body went completely out of control you
18:12were excited by it I guess it's like an
18:15animal going after its prey one of these
18:18days I hope that he's the animal and
18:22there's somebody else who's the
18:26hunter the shooting barely made a
18:29headline in New York City but back in
18:31the neighborhood the news traveled fast
18:33everything started to change I would go
18:36to the same club with disco and got
18:40online and before you know it bounces
18:43the owners came out Sammy no no you
18:45don't have to wait online so you just
18:46come right in and so you were a player I
18:49was yeah I was in the I was out of the
18:52minor leagues I was in the major leagues
18:54as gano's reputation in the mob Rose so
18:57did that of another young St star in the
18:58Gambino family John Gotti who had
19:01already served time for a murder Grano
19:04says they first met at an after hours
19:06Club amid music and
19:08gambling and I says how you doing John I
19:10hear a lot of good things about you he
19:12says yeah Samy me too you know did he
19:14make an impression on you did he have
19:16something sure he was flamboyant he
19:19seemed smart he seemed nervy he's a
19:23tough guy in the street and meeting him
19:25I mean he's a good-look man he he's got
19:27cour he's got personality um yeah he
19:31impressed me a little
19:34bit over the years Grano became known as
19:37a hitman's Hitman he says after the
19:40first time it wasn't him who pulled the
19:42trigger on every hit there'd be a
19:44trigger man a cleanup crew and Grano
19:46says he would
19:48choreograph and what did it take to get
19:51killed he says sometimes it was betrayal
19:54sometimes just
19:56insubordination this Louis the Bono you
19:58you're talking about he's a made guy he
20:00knows what he's doing he's not showing
20:02up when the boss uh calls him he robbed
20:05us in business he's running a muck all
20:07over the place time to go it just
20:11doesn't sound quite
20:12human the way you talk about that what
20:16would you want me to do how would you
20:18want me to talk about it well
20:20suffer I guess I did that it's not for
20:24you or the
20:26public to want to see me suffer or do
20:28things or
20:29whatever one of the guys had been your
20:32oldest
20:34friend yeah and you felt nothing then
20:37either oh absolutely felt something tore
20:39me up but you wanted to be there oh yeah
20:43absolutely
20:45why why because it's somebody who was
20:48real close to me and somebody I Lov and
20:50I would want to be there and I would
20:53want it to go right I would want it to
20:55go
20:56painless unexpected
20:59Lou meito gano's best friend and Grano
21:02says partner in the crime business his
21:04daughter Dena went to gravano for help
21:06when her dad disappeared I sent Uncle
21:09Sammy I didn't talk to my father in 2
21:11days and he didn't go to work there's
21:12something wrong he said why do you say
21:15that princess I said because that's not
21:17my father I said and there's something
21:19wrong and he said don't worry I'll find
21:22your father don't worry about a thing I
21:24mean in retrospect the man had my father
21:26killed two nights before but he really
21:29like looked me in my
21:30face Grano says Malo was shot twice in
21:33the head and never knew what hit him his
21:36body was never
21:37found he also said of the death of your
21:41father that it it killed him inside what
21:46when he put a bolt on my father's head
21:49and that he wanted to be there to make
21:51sure there was no pain oh how how nice
21:55of him I knew the wife I knew the
21:58children and uh I tried to help the
22:00family but this is the life he's in the
22:03life he played the wrong
22:05cards he double crossed
22:08us and he lost he said that my father
22:11may have played the cards
22:14wrong but boy he was quick to take my
22:17father's companies and my father's money
22:21dadd he was quick to take he did not
22:22have the brain capacity to go out and
22:26earn money so he had to take what other
22:28the only thing he knew how to do was use
22:30his two hands to murder people period
22:33the end but does it matter that the
22:36murdered fathers of all these women were
22:38involved with the mob according to the
22:40FBI agent George Gabriel M they were
22:43Mobsters they knew the rules and they
22:45knew that if they broke the rules they
22:47were going to get killed just like they
22:48would have turned around and killed
22:50somebody had the their boss told them to
22:52do so we told Dina mitolo that on one of
22:54gano's murders the trigger man was
22:57allegedly her father it has been written
23:01Dina that your dad was there not to my
23:05knowledge I didn't know anything about
23:08that you haven't heard it no where did
23:11this come from this again this is this
23:15is Sammy
23:18Grano well that's news to me but what if
23:22as the government says their fathers
23:24were involved in the mob doesn't it make
23:27it different in some way if it turns out
23:29to be true then they should have spent
23:32many years or their lives in jail Sammy
23:35Grano is not to be judge jury and
23:38execution if it turns out to be true but
23:41for sheer coldheartedness perhaps
23:44nothing tops what gravano says he did
23:46back in 1978 when Nick sabeta
23:49vanished Nick saeta mhm now that
23:55um was my wife's brother
23:59that was an order from Paul
24:03castalano I was stuck with
24:06it uh I participated in
24:10it and uh it's another one of those
24:13things that basically happened that's
24:15another one that killed me I mean to see
24:18my wife or my mother-in-law my
24:19father-in-law or people it just tore me
24:21up did you tell them did they know no we
24:25want me to go home and tell them I just
24:26killed your son or your brother no of
24:29course not they didn't suspect no your
24:32wife didn't suspect no Grano says he
24:35didn't know that after his
24:36brother-in-law was killed the body would
24:39be dismembered wasn't there some way you
24:41could get him out of town some way to
24:43get word to him
24:45to I mean did you owe that to your wife
24:49there's nothing I could have done I know
24:51it sounds easy enough to say get out of
24:54town or do something and you see that in
24:56the movies but that doesn't really work
24:57in real life if I bed about it or didn't
25:00want to do it or whatever I was going
25:02through how could you face your
25:06wife how could you face your
25:09wife it's very difficult but being in
25:12the Mob Of My Life I am trained for this
25:15I am trained for double cross I am
25:17trained to con did you say what have I
25:21become what with that blood on my hands
25:25what am
25:26I
25:28I'm a
25:29Gangster that's exactly what I
25:32am when we return for the first time on
25:35television Sammy gano's account of the
25:37stunning hit on his own Godfather the
25:40king of the mob in New York the
25:41legendary Paul
25:43Castellano they were told killed them
25:47and if you if it means you have to die
25:49there then die there with them die there
25:52in the gun battle with the cops do not
25:53back off for this hit told there are 26
25:56mafia families in in the country the
25:58rules set by a commission of bosses who
26:00divide up the territory to get an idea
26:03of what's at stake for all of us a
26:04presidential committee's report
26:06estimated in 1988 that the mob took in
26:09$30 billion a year in tax-free money the
26:12report says the five families in New
26:14York jack up the prices on construction
26:17by
26:1820% at the center of this Sammy Grano
26:21who ran construction and concrete for
26:23the gambino crime
26:26family I literally Marvel at the sight
26:30of Manhattan when I see it cuz I
26:31controlled it I literally controlled
26:35Manhattan when I see it at night those
26:37lights and everything about it I think
26:39of Donald Trump and tishman and
26:41everybody else who couldn't build a
26:42building if I didn't want to build
26:44it that got me off plus I made a lot of
26:47money with it but to get control Sammy
26:50Grano says he and John Gotti would have
26:53to trade in the rules of kostra for the
26:55law of the jungle by 1985 he says they
26:59decided to move on their own Godfather
27:01The Gambino family boss Paul Castellano
27:05himself Paul Castellano what was the
27:09problem there was a lot of problems I
27:11mean Paul Castellano wasn't a gangster
27:14he was a racketeer a gangster is a guy
27:18who is real tough he's a street guy he's
27:22a street hoodlum he's a gangster the
27:25other guy is more he's more polished
27:26he's not as t he's not as dangerous he
27:29says Castellano wasn't really a mobster
27:32he spent his time reading the Wall
27:33Street Journal and lining his own
27:35pockets and even at a gathering of his
27:38top gunmen praising the cops and he says
27:42you want to know who the real tough guys
27:43are the cops they go on domestic
27:47violence beefs they don't know what
27:49they're going to run
27:50into I mean this is not something that
27:53you would tell your your top hit teams
27:56in a family
27:58uh after sending them on work every time
28:00you want somebody whacked out Grano says
28:03the final straw was what happened when
28:05some of Gotti's crew got indicted for
28:07drug trafficking Castellano was
28:09reportedly Furious that they had broken
28:11the no drug Rule and that they'd gotten
28:13caught everybody's afraid that PA was
28:15going to move against Gotti and his
28:18crew Gotti he says decided to strike
28:21first turning to Sammy the bull for help
28:24Gotti sent his right-hand man Angelo and
28:26he had told me says Sammy says we're
28:28going to take out pul but this is a
28:31complete violation complete complete
28:35violation of our rules and oath and
28:37everything else he says it took 7 months
28:40of careful planning the hit would take
28:42place at spark Steakhouse a restaurant
28:44in busy Midtown Manhattan frequented by
28:47castalano The Killing was planned for
28:49December 16th 1985 less than 2 weeks
28:53before
28:54Christmas how many people did you get
28:56together to do this
28:5811 there was 11 of us to throw off
29:01Witnesses Grano says the gunmen were all
29:04dressed in white trench coats and black
29:06Russian hats they were told kill them
29:11and if you if it means you have to die
29:13there then die there with them die there
29:15in the gun battle with the cops do not
29:17back off for this
29:19hit what about innocent banders people
29:22coming down the
29:23street they wouldn't be hurt unless they
29:26interfered with it
29:28and then they're not an innocent
29:29bystander anymore I had a 357
29:33Magnum and anybody who would interfere
29:36with the hit team I would take them
29:39out there's that whole myth that we only
29:41kill ourselves that shoots that in the
29:43ass a little
29:44bit Gano reveals what he says really
29:47happened that day he and Gotti were
29:50sitting in a car park just a block away
29:52from the
29:53restaurant 5:20 p.m. Rush Hour a Lincoln
29:56with Paul Castellano and and his driver
29:58Tommy bot unwittingly pulls alongside a
30:01startled Gotti and
30:02Grano I said John they're right next to
30:05us and I told John if he turns in our
30:08Direction I'm going to start shooting
30:10right here and
30:11now the light changed I was on the
30:15walkie-talkie I said everybody get ready
30:18they pulled in front the Sparks they
30:20parked the
30:21car soon as Paul opened up the door I
30:23saw them white jackets all surrounding
30:26the car they was shooting
30:28Paul Tommy was actually watching Paul
30:31being shot thinking which direction that
30:34he would run probably but part of the
30:35head team was across the street and they
30:38came across and shot him in the head a
30:40bunch of
30:42times and uh we pulled next to them I
30:45put the window down slightly I told John
30:48he's gone what did you and Gotti say to
30:50each other really not too much it's not
30:53like football we didn't get up and give
30:54each other high fives or anything like
30:56that it was one of the biggest Gangland
30:59murders of the century this afternoon
31:01police say that Paul Castellano the
31:03reputed head of the gambino crime family
31:05and another man were shot and killed
31:08they said it was for family only the
31:10Wake tonight for big Paul castalano
31:12Gotti allegedly wanted to show his
31:14respects by coming here but instead
31:17preferred to stay away because of all
31:19the undercover cops in the area who
31:21would like to talk to him about the
31:23murder of Paul
31:25Castellano I mean it glamorized him in
31:27the paper like he did the whole hit and
31:30what he did the reality is that he was a
31:34driver I
31:36driver it would be years before anyone
31:38would be arrested for the castalano
31:40murder in January 1986 John Gotti a
31:44street guy from Queens was elected boss
31:46of the most powerful crime syndicate in
31:48the country John Gotti has succeeded
31:51castalano as head of the gambino crime
31:53family attained overnight Fame as the
31:55man said to be the new Godfather father
31:57at the beginning when Gotti took over
31:59did you think You' done the right
32:02thing yes and really put the gangsters
32:06back in charge put the gangsters back in
32:08charge and we were going to change it
32:09around and make it what kostra is
32:11supposed to be was supposed to mean did
32:14he really know how to run things oh he's
32:18smart there's no question John GTI was
32:21now the CEO of a giant crime Corporation
32:24with more than 2,000 members and
32:25Associates and millions and elicit
32:27revenues the captains gravano says
32:30passed on up to 80% of their take to the
32:33boss we had 21 captains the gonier made
32:38members and how each of them gave him
32:41something right was well he he each
32:43person gives to their direct Superior
32:45their their boss so you were giving him
32:47like $100,000 a month I think it's more
32:50closer to 2 million a year but yeah
32:53anywhere from a million two to 2 million
32:55a year something like that and how how
32:57far did your tentacles reach in the
32:59businesses of the city everything you
33:02name it we did it wherever we can put a
33:05situation together that inflates the
33:09price and we can have a skim from that
33:13we do it and you pay the price so you're
33:16saying it was really true that the mob
33:19was that powerful in New York that it
33:21controlled everything from what you eat
33:24to where you live to what you wear
33:27absolutely to how you travel in the city
33:29everything had a tax on it from the mob
33:33just about everything I could possibly
33:34think
33:36of it was Grano says a complex
33:39interaction of legitimate businesses
33:41like Concrete and Construction And
33:43Criminal methods sometimes they just
33:46make sure their guys got the bid
33:49sometimes they got kickbacks from other
33:50people's work they did it he says by
33:53controlling many of the labor unions
33:55from the Garment industry to garbage
33:57hauling you're talking a lot of money
33:59you're talking a lot of Industry I mean
34:01they take over an industry they put
34:02their people in business and and free
34:04enterprise goes out the
34:06window the families were able to shut
34:08down job sites to control the price of
34:11concrete to control who picked up waste
34:15uh to control who got deliveries or who
34:17didn't get
34:18deliveries if we wanted to stop a
34:21project we can just go right to the
34:23teams to form and just say run this by
34:26the book every truck that comes in check
34:29his tires check his which is all Union
34:31rules check if he's in good standing
34:33with the Union if he's up to date his
34:35does that truck could sit there for an
34:37hour but by the end of the day there'll
34:38be 40 trucks 50 trucks online to get in
34:40they can't get
34:41in so we'll slow that project down we'll
34:46destroy it he says sometimes fear alone
34:49would get the job done but sometimes
34:52greed would help Gano says they'd
34:54negotiate and then enforce industry wide
34:57prices when you went to uh big Bakery
35:00for instance and said okay your your
35:02your bread is 30 cents a loaf we're
35:04going to make it 50 cents a loaf we only
35:07want three cents a loaf so you're going
35:09to make a big profit so it's more of a
35:12negotiation so that if you can get
35:14everybody to raise the price together
35:16then everybody's going to benefit
35:17everybody but the public the ultimate
35:20control is through fear the ultimate
35:22control is the belief by victim by
35:25victim companies or victim indiv idual
35:27that if I don't comply with their
35:29demands or if I don't comply with what
35:31they want me to do that ultimately they
35:33have the power of life or death over me
35:35and what about drugs Gano says neither
35:38he nor Gotti got involved in drug deals
35:41though they look the other way when
35:42others in the family did not that I look
35:45down on these drug dealers or whatever
35:46they want to do it just wasn't my
35:48business I wasn't comfortable with it I
35:50didn't like the people that you had to
35:51deal with but you really want me to
35:54believe that with all that money out
35:56there in
35:57drugs that you turned away from drug
36:00money you really want me to believe that
36:01that you had compunctions about the
36:03people it's a dangerous backstabbing
36:06business so it's not like I'm trying to
36:09stand on my high horse that I didn't do
36:11drugs I just didn't do it cuz I didn't
36:13like it I made millions in construction
36:16and shocking and not all that heat with
36:18is there ever enough though well yeah
36:20was for me was enough for me I had a
36:24house on Staten Island white the about a
36:26half a mill I had a horse uh Farm a 30
36:31acre horse farm in New
36:32Jersey I owned the office building where
36:35I was in by now Grano and his wife
36:38Debbie had two children he told her he
36:41was in the construction business don't
36:43ask don't tell it was a close-knit
36:46family he says traditional living in
36:48separate but parallel worlds when my
36:51wife takes me to this house and she says
36:53i' like to have this house I'm looking
36:55at it as a hitman man to kill the person
36:58who walks out of that house or into that
37:00house and uh that's the way we go
37:02shopping she looks for the furniture I
37:04look for the h if you question gano's
37:07story about the mob and the union you
37:09might want to know that five Teamster
37:11officials were eventually convicted as
37:14for John GTI even though he was
37:16convicted of the murder of Paul
37:17Castellano his lawyers say he's not
37:19guilty and that gano's story is
37:22preposterous more of gano's interview in
37:25a moment but for those of you who've
37:27been asking about the mafia and the
37:29movies I love The Godfather I thought
37:32that was the best interpretation of our
37:34life that I've ever
37:35seen Godfather one and Godfather 2 the
37:38other one stunk it was once an
37:40unquestioned tenant of life in the mob
37:42that you try to operate beneath the
37:44radar meetings at 2: in the morning in
37:46discret locations but that was before
37:49the modern virus a fascination with
37:52celebrity infected even organized crime
37:55and Gano says no one was more vulnerable
37:57to that virus than his boss John
38:00Gotti what John did is basically
38:03unprecedented in organized crime um
38:06prior to his Reign if you will of the
38:09Gambino family everybody was more much
38:11more secretive this was his style this
38:13was his flare this is what brought him
38:15down Samy Grano says he knew law
38:18enforcement was closing in but Gotti
38:20became more and more arrogant and flashy
38:23traveling in his chauffeur Mercedes
38:25famous for his 20 Bion suits in one week
38:29alone he was reported to have lost more
38:30than
38:31$300,000 gambling he bet the entire line
38:35every single game whether it be football
38:38basketball hockey every game the FBI
38:41says Gotti told them he sold plumbing
38:44supplies and zippers and he estimated
38:46his annual salary at about
38:49$100,000 he used to get up around 11
38:5212:00 in the afternoon he had somebody
38:55picking out his clothes used to have a
38:57Bara come every single day and give him
38:59a haircut cut the hairs in his nose and
39:02was a play t it was a performance for
39:06the media he went in the restaurant one
39:08time and he liked the wine that was $50
39:11a bottle and he made Joe watsco grab the
39:13owner and raise it on the menu to 200 a
39:15bottle because people knew that John
39:17Gotti liked that wine he was obsessed
39:20with the whole image not of Goen orra of
39:25himself gravano says on one occasion
39:28Gotti pointed out a couple who were
39:29staring at him I look over and sure
39:32enough they're looking at him so I says
39:35you want me to send one of our
39:36bodyguards over to see who they are what
39:39they want he said no no this is my
39:43public my
39:46public from my teaching and my
39:48understanding of Goan asra it's a secret
39:52society we have no public we recognize
39:55no public we recog recognize
39:58nothing Scotty would become a kind of
40:00folk hero on the cover of people and
40:02time three times the Government tried to
40:05convict him on racketeering charges for
40:07assault and for ordering the shooting of
40:10a union official find him not
40:13guilty the Dapper Dawn became the Teflon
40:16Dawn for the third time in 5 years the
40:19government has failed to win a
40:21conviction against the man the
40:22government claims is the head of the
40:24largest organized crime family in
40:25America
40:29Gotti emerged I think almost brazenly as
40:31somebody that felt he was Untouchable uh
40:35to the extent that we in law enforcement
40:37could not allow that to occur could not
40:39allow somebody uh to feel he was above
40:41the law the FBI wanted to show it could
40:44bring John Gotti down where other
40:45agencies had failed to do so three times
40:49he got off he beat the system Sami Deo
40:53was fixing the trial I was reaching
40:55jurors
40:57and bribing
40:58them and he didn't win the trial fair
41:01and
41:02square Grano says through a middleman he
41:05paid a juror in one trial $60,000 to
41:08stick to a not- guilty
41:10position by 1987 Gotti had appointed
41:13gravano his consiliary the third highest
41:16position in the Gambino family but
41:19gravano says he was unable to convince
41:21Gotti that his high-profile was putting
41:23everyone in the family at risk Gotti
41:26loved the spotlight too
41:28much I think his problem was that he uh
41:32fell in love with himself he saw himself
41:34on television in the newspapers and he
41:37lost touch with what he was that he's a
41:40gangster not an
41:42actor but by 1988 Gotti did have a
41:46starring role in the FBI's latest
41:48surveillance video outside Gotti's
41:50hangout in Little Italy the ravenite
41:52social club down the ravenite on mberry
41:55Street every Captain every made guy in
41:58the family was to report that every
42:01single week no boss ever made the whole
42:03family show up at any one place in plain
42:06view and plain daylight the mob doesn't
42:09work that way they don't show up all at
42:11once and make life easy for us which is
42:13what they did I mean nobody liked this I
42:17don't think too many people had the
42:18courage to tell him to his face and I
42:20would tell him John there's the whole
42:22government sitting outside the club
42:24there's news people all these people
42:26running around outside what are we doing
42:28here why don't we meet 2 3:00 in the
42:30morning and try and evade some of this
42:32stuff he would just shut you up and say
42:34no no no I'll show you watch I'll show
42:37you how to beat cases I'll show you how
42:39to do
42:40it he showed us real
42:43good by the way that juror gravano said
42:45he bribed to help John Gotti he was
42:48eventually convicted of obstruction of
42:50justice and sentenced to 3 years in
42:52prison here's a new development in our
42:54story to for this afternoon the New York
42:57attorney general filed a lawsuit against
42:59Sammy Grano as well as the author and
43:01publisher of his new book the state
43:04believes Grano has been paid for his
43:06story and is seeking to freeze that
43:08money so that the victims of his crimes
43:10can go after it we're saying show me the
43:13contract and that very simple that very
43:16simple request has has been denied so it
43:20leads us to believe that the problem
43:23that we can't see the contract is
43:24because the contract clearly states out
43:25the terms of the deal that results in
43:28Grano profiting from this book gravano
43:30has refused to discuss whether or not
43:32he's receiving money for the book but
43:34says he'll fight the case to the Supreme
43:36Court of course in order to subpoena him
43:39they'll first have to find
43:41him our portrait of Sammy the bul
43:44gravano the man who brought down John
43:45Gotti will continue tomorrow night at
43:47this time on turning point here's a
43:50preview tomorrow the mob trial of the
43:55century John Gotti was more popular than
43:58the president of the United States the
44:00FBI tapes that helped seal Gotti's
44:04fate along with the Betrayal by Sammy
44:07the bull what was the real reason you
44:09cooperated the real reason the Intrigue
44:12an alleged murder plot does Gotti know
44:14this no he's going to find out with this
44:16inter you described by the mobster who
44:19thanks to the government has a new face
44:21I wasn't always this beautiful tell you
44:23the truth and a new life of freedom
44:26you got a real cushy deal her exclusive
44:30story of betrayal in the mafia continues
44:32I told him I agree with you he's got to
44:35go we'll kill him last night on prime
44:38time we introduced you to one of the
44:40mob's most feared executioners his far
44:43as being a Hitman I actually was good at
44:45it he's confessed to 19 murders
44:47including his best friend I knew the
44:50wife I knew the children but this is the
44:52life he betrayed us and he was killed
44:54and he told us about the John Gotti he
44:56knew his boss the Glamorous Godfather I
45:00think his problem was that he fell in
45:02love with himself tonight Sammy the bull
45:05Grano reveals what finally led him to
45:07turn on Gotti making sound like High
45:10School in high school you can throw a
45:11spitball at somebody we use bullets the
45:14FBI tapes that helped seal Gotti's
45:18fate and after the mob trial of the
45:21century the question should the
45:23government have given gravano a cushion
45:26deal we attribute about 30 convictions
45:29to Sam gano's testimony doesn't the
45:31government worry about the fact that
45:33they've let a psychopath loose and
45:36taxpayer funded plastic surgery I wasn't
45:39always this beautiful tell you the truth
45:41and a new life free among us but the
45:45next time you get really angry at
45:46somebody isn't it going to be tempting
45:48to use the old
45:50solution putting a face on the enemy
45:52says agent Lis shelo the squad itself
45:55had been really developing a pattern as
45:57to who would show up on what night who
45:59would pay respect to whom as they as
46:00they entered the
46:03club for 2 years they
46:06watched by the winter of 1988 the FBI
46:09managed to get inside the ravenite
46:12social club and placed an electronic bug
46:14in the main meeting room but still they
46:16were frustrated puzzled we would lose
46:19John Gotti um we would have his voice
46:21for a moment in time and then within a
46:23minute or so we would lose it again the
46:26people listening to the bugs were saying
46:27we don't hear JN anymore as he out of
46:29the club and the surveillance guys would
46:30turn around and say no we don't have him
46:32out and it was a little confusion are
46:34you sure he's not out we realized we had
46:36to find out and determine where it was
46:38he was going by now George Gabriel and
46:4134 other agents were assigned to the
46:44case and the FBI was tailing GTI and
46:46Gano almost everywhere they went it
46:49seemed like it was increasing by the
46:51minute I mean from one or two cars um it
46:55seemed to grow to four five six cars
46:57trucks vans Neighbors in my neighborhood
47:00would come over and tell me you know
47:02Sammy there's people watching the break
47:04in the investigation came when an
47:06informant told the FBI about an
47:09apartment above the ravenite an
47:11apartment where Gotti apparently thought
47:13he was completely safe from the
47:15authorities it took months but finally
47:18the FBI placed a bug in Gotti's inner
47:22[Music]
47:24Sanctum
47:27[Music]
47:28it was The Godfather uncensored using
47:31words he would always disavow in
47:34public is be I die an hour from now
47:38tonight or 100 years from now I'm in
47:41jail it was The Godfather relaxed and
47:44well
47:46[Music]
47:54complaining and then through the music
47:56in the same tone of voice it was The
47:58Godfather talking about
48:03murder I knew why it was being
48:07done the conversations were very direct
48:09they were not guarded talking about Coen
48:11ustra in terms that I'd never heard
48:13before I whacked him I had him killed on
48:16one day December 12th 1989 Gotti talks
48:19about not one but two murders and
48:21appears to be plotting a new
48:24one
48:30for the life of me I can't understand
48:33why he talked about so many people and
48:36so many crimes that we' have committed
48:39that openly I mean I guess he felt very
48:41secure there John had conversations that
48:44you you wouldn't dream would occur you
48:47couldn't ask for more I mean you
48:48couldn't have scripted better
48:51conversations and it was just a euphoric
48:53uh feeling early evening on December
48:5611th 1990 the FBI made its move as usual
49:00Gotti was at the ravenite meeting with
49:02his top hierarchy the door bursts open
49:05and the FBI come charging in they
49:07announced that John myself and Frankie
49:09low were arrested and the three of us
49:11fac 29 to 30 um top Echelon Gambino
49:17captains the hierarchy of the family uh
49:20surrounded by their soldiers and John
49:22did something pretty funny he says we're
49:24not putting the cuffs on not doing
49:25anything he says I'm having black coffee
49:27first and he calls the coffee boy Norman
49:30bring me Sammy and Frankie a cup of uh
49:32Black Coffee they stood and waited while
49:35he had coffee yep all three of us had
49:38coffee and they stood there and they
49:39waited they were perfect gentleman about
49:42it and then uh we
49:45left Gotti had been arrested before and
49:48had beaten the system three times but
49:51this time would be different good
49:53evening let's guys was real trouble but
49:56you didn't know about the tape you try
49:58and keep you in jail they say you're in
49:59danger while you're out they had it on a
50:01silver platter I mean he gave them the
50:04family and other families on a silver
50:07platter by the way the government also
50:09taped gravano in his office and club and
50:12agents told us in thousands of hours
50:14gravano neither incriminated himself nor
50:17said one word against John Gotti but
50:20Gotti did not return the favor as you'll
50:22see in a
50:24moment
50:29outside the Federal District Courthouse
50:31in Brooklyn supporters of John gty
50:33turned out in
50:35force the theme from the film The
50:37Godfather could be heard amid the
50:39chanting and the crush of
50:40[Music]
50:43[Applause]
50:45photographers celebrities like Anthony
50:47Quinn and Mickey Rook came to see the
50:49hottest show in
50:51town it was the final showdown between
50:54the government and Gotti and it was
50:57inevitable says Gotti attorney Anthony
50:59cardali the government's idea is that Mr
51:02Gotti uh operated his own government
51:05outside of theirs John Gotti was more
51:08popular than the president of the United
51:10States in their eyes and that was the
51:12reason why it was a win at any cost uh
51:17prosecution the nation's most famous
51:20mobster had been charged with 13 counts
51:22including the murder of mob boss Paul
51:24castalano and four others the jury was
51:27sequestered under 24-hour guard to make
51:30sure that this time no juror could be
51:32bought or
51:33intimidated to this day their names have
51:35never been
51:36released and then on March 2nd 1992
51:40Sammy the bull Grano arrived in a
51:42bulletproof van surrounded by armed
51:44guards to testify against his former
51:48boss a surprise you just a year and a
51:51half earlier when they were first
51:53arrested John Gotti Sammy gravano and
51:55and Frankie lacao had been a United
51:57Force the top hierarchy of the gambino
52:00crime
52:01family they were taken to the
52:03Metropolitan Correctional Center in
52:05downtown Manhattan knowing they could be
52:07facing life in prison I said John if we
52:11lose this case I'm going out the window
52:15we could
52:16escape and he looks at me and he says
52:18out the window we're on the 11th floor
52:22what if we fall so he says no no Sammy
52:25listen to to me he says I got another
52:26plan he says down the road he says we'll
52:29put together 4 five million he says and
52:31we'll bribe a president and we'll get a
52:34pardon like Halford did I said well if
52:37you don't mind if that's your plan if
52:39you don't mind if I go with my
52:41plan but there was no escape and as they
52:44sat in prison seeds of conflict began
52:47taking root mainly because of those FBI
52:50tapes what did you hear the backstabbing
52:53and the lies Grano say say he listened
52:55in disbelief as Gotti badmouthed him on
52:59one tape there was a tiate about gano's
53:01lucrative business deals and I tell
53:05milon
53:08SL slow it
53:11down you come up with 15 companies
53:14Christ sake you got Rex you got concrete
53:17you got fire you got construction you
53:20got Drive mod you got speci you got R
53:24next keeps complaining to Frankie he was
53:26bitching and moaning about
53:28[Music]
53:30me and Gotti not only complained about
53:33gano's businesses he repeatedly laid off
53:36the motive for the murders to his under
53:40[Music]
53:46boss and you sensed he was going to
53:48blame the murders on you well the tap
53:51the tapes just like you're saying right
53:53now sound like it's another words poor
53:56John Gotti he lost control of Sammy
53:58theol he's killing people he's got green
54:00eyes he's taking the money down he's got
54:03a big crew he's completely taken over
54:06poor John Gotti so the theory is by the
54:10lawyers that the jurors could look at it
54:12that way the public could look at it
54:13that way and maybe maybe just maybe John
54:17G could be acquitted Grano says he
54:20became convinced that he would be the
54:22Fall Guy at the trial still he maintain
54:25means he would have been loyal to the
54:26end had Gotti only
54:28apologized if he would have said once
54:31once in prison the whole 11 months J
54:35Sammy I'm sorry my big Mount you got
54:37indicted let's see how we can fight this
54:39case for somebody to win I wouldn't be
54:42sitting with you I'd probably be doing
54:43life in prison I would have never
54:45cooperated did you just go to him and
54:48talk to him about the tapes what did he
54:51say it's your fault you made me mad and
54:54I was talking out out of my out of my
54:57ass is what he said I'm trying to think
54:58of another word but that's what he said
55:00and I'm just blowing off
55:02steam in the meantime when you blew off
55:05steam I was arrested on your steam Grano
55:10says for the first time he began to
55:12believe he was a Marked Man even if he
55:14were freed and I realized that John
55:18probably eventually would take me out
55:20for no other reason but he wants one
55:23show one BL was a John Gotti he don't
55:27want anybody to be his equal he don't
55:30want anybody uh in any way shape or form
55:34to shine and I guess I was shining too
55:37much making it sound like high school
55:40yeah but the only thing is that in high
55:42school you could throw a a spitball at
55:44somebody we use
55:47bullets he says Gotti became so paranoid
55:50and verbally abusive in prison that
55:53Frankie lacao came to him with a
55:56proposal and he said when I get out if
55:59we beat this case I'm going to kill
56:02him I thought about him for a second and
56:06I told
56:07him I agree with you he's got to go I
56:11said but I'm going to tell you one thing
56:12I've done too much I'm not going to take
56:15anybody as the boss of the family we
56:18kill him I'm taking
56:21over he shook my hand he kissed me he
56:23hugged me and he told he says I just
56:25want one
56:27thing I want to be the guy to pull the
56:29trigger does Gotti know this about him
56:31that he said this to you no he's going
56:33to no he's going to find out with this
56:35interview did you just
56:38seal Frankie Luc casio's fate Frankie
56:42will probably deny it I'll probably say
56:44a rat he's lying but he could do
56:48that he'll
56:50survive after almost a year in prison
56:53Grano made the decision that would bring
56:55down John Gotti in a different way when
56:58did you decide to cooperate what was the
57:01moment I decided that enough was enough
57:05I made a list of people that we would
57:07have to
57:08kill so that there would be
57:11no retaliation and the list consisted of
57:14his brother jeie who I really like his
57:17brother
57:18Pete the thought of killing his son
57:21sicken me tell you the
57:23truth so you figured there were how many
57:25people you had about 10 12 14 people
57:28more I looked at the list I guess I
57:32looked at myself and I did some soul
57:34searching I ripped the list up I threw
57:37it down the
57:38bowl and I made arrangements to call uh
57:41and get in touch with the
57:42FBI we were very suspicious initially
57:45George Gabriel one of the FBI agents who
57:48had arrested joh Gotti was there when
57:50Grano agreed to turn promising to tell
57:52everything about his 23 years in the mob
57:55we were actually looking for what the
57:57Trap was here somebody was lulling us
57:59into this was a John Gotti trick to
58:03deter us from the work we were doing to
58:04firm up our case and and give us a
58:06Sidetrack and a
58:08sideline we didn't expect it we didn't
58:10believe it initially uh until we started
58:13dealing with him and found out he was on
58:14the level this is the deal Grano and the
58:17government worked out instead of life in
58:20prison gravana would get a maximum of 20
58:22years in exchange for complete
58:25operation then gravano made a surprising
58:28request he wanted to stay two more weeks
58:30in prison with Gotti before his betrayal
58:33was revealed and they told
58:35me what if you're
58:38killed walking out I says I guess then
58:41we don't have a deal why did you want to
58:43go
58:46back thank you for watching this video
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This page contains the full transcript of Salvatore "Sammy the Bull" Gravano interview with Diane Sawyer 1997 by Infinite-Lee Productions, generated from the public captions YouTube serves with the video. The transcript has 9,650 words across 1,389 segments, with the original timestamps preserved so you can click any line to jump to that moment in the embedded player.

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