Russia, Israel, and the World Beyond: A Conversation with Natan Sharansky — Transcript

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1. 0:20good afternoon everyone I'm Harold Holzer director  of the Roosevelt house Public Policy Institute I
2. 0:29should get used to saying good afternoon because  we've been increasingly hosting afternoon programs
3. 0:36one more special than the next and or than the  previous and maybe the next as far as I know it
4. 0:43is a special privilege and honor to be introducing  the program today we had to say what guest would
5. 0:53we want to have at Roosevelt House the home of  Eleanor Roosevelt and Franklin Roosevelt where
6. 1:00with the words of the Four Freedoms on the wall  that they are facing it would be not on Sharansky
7. 1:06and we're so privileged to have him today I'm  not going to spend any time read ascribing or
8. 1:13interpreting a biography that is so well known in  our minds and hearts for all that he endured in
9. 1:20the name of freedom it's one of the moving stories  of the 20th century I can just say that we're
10. 1:27honored to have him and we're grateful to our  friend great journalist publisher member of the
11. 1:39Roosevelt House border advisors and most recently  in his newest role a teacher in our human rights
12. 1:46program Peter Osnos for inviting his friend to our  halls and persuading him to come so I am delighted
13. 1:57to introduce for this conversation our friend  Peter Osnos and our new friend Natasha on ski
14. 2:07in a sense personal I won't say how pleased I am
15. 2:14to see that note on can draw a  crowd in the middle of the day
16. 2:20in a sense this entire conversation for which we  have roughly an hour is an introduction so I'm
17. 2:27not going to do one but I will say that 'not  on and I met in summer of 1974 in Moscow he
18. 2:37was introduced to me as the spokesman for the  dissidents and the refuseniks and I looked at
19. 2:44him and said you're the spokesman he wasn't  exactly what you would call at that time he
20. 2:51was 26 I thought to myself this is going to  be a formidable enterprise but little did
21. 2:58I know in 1977 the time was arrested charged  with treason sent to the gulag for nine years
22. 3:11and when he came out and went to Israel and  joined his beloved wife avital I went with
23. 3:21my colleague Bob Bernstein who was here before  is he still here who was then then the chairman
24. 3:28of Random House and the founder of Human Rights  Watch Bob and I went to Israel and persuaded in
25. 3:34a ton with a cheque to write his memoirs for  us his prison memoir which we published it's
26. 3:42called fear no evil and I think it's one of the  great books of its kind because it represents in
27. 3:51so many ways one person's ability one person's  ability to take on a system as formidable as the
28. 4:01Soviet Union was at the time when night on was  arrested taken to prison charged with treason
29. 4:12stripped naked nobody was more defenseless  at that moment than he was and the thought
30. 4:17that went through his mind was they could not  humiliate me only I can humiliate myself and
31. 4:24for the next nine years he outsmarted the KGB  and when they told him as they were going to
32. 4:32release him across the Glen aqui bridge in Berlin  they said now you're gonna get out of the car and
33. 4:37walk a straight line over to that other car  so what did he do he Zig zagged and he's been
34. 4:45zigzagging in Israel ever since what I'd like to  do very because we really don't have a lot of time
35. 4:52I want to leave some time for questions there  are three phases in Natanz adult life one was
36. 4:59prison two was politics and three is the Jewish  Agency for which he's been the executive what
37. 5:07is the president executive director the Big  Cheese chairman for the last nine years each
38. 5:12of those things nine years in prison nine years  in politics nine years at the Jewish Agency and
39. 5:18so what we're going to try to do in the time we  have so we can have questions it's very quickly
40. 5:22in the time can you reflect now on all these  years later what did it mean to you to be in
41. 5:30prison yet only one correction you you said that  is zigzagged when KGB told him to go straight and
42. 5:39since then I am zigzagging his little projects  I'm so sorry it's easily government's what else
43. 5:44exactly I'm not exactly we've never been able to  okay now well that's what Frank I'm here because
44. 5:56because Peter Austin's was my accomplice in my  sentence was mentioned my accomplice I have to
45. 6:03respect my accomplices in crime but when I'm  sitting here and reading its role the results
46. 6:12words olio his wife so it's so appropriate  as if it's as if as if they they read my book
47. 6:23the main thing is freedom of speech the second is  to worship the God in the way in which you choose
48. 6:33to do it and well I write a lot about it the third  is people who need needs of the people and the
49. 6:43fourth is to be free of fear again not for fear of  God but fear of people and that's well I think all
50. 6:56what we were discussing and doing and fighting  for is about so it's thank you for inviting me
51. 7:01here and also costly onerous results Declaration  of Human Rights was among those topics which were
52. 7:08confiscated by KGB during the searches and one of  the things which we were printing and distributing
53. 7:19one of the papers to remind them what their  real rights are so thank you for inviting now
54. 7:26they speak about this year this by far the easiest  yes we were years in prison because they only you
55. 7:40have physical hardships but in terms of moral  life it's such a simple pure intact it's so
56. 7:52easy to keep your integrity because all what you  have to do is to keep saying no to KGB and also
57. 8:02you know what we we Jews we have a very demanding  religion it's 613 commandments that he admits what
58. 8:10613 commands if you really want to feel yourself  could you you have to fulfill 613 applications I
59. 8:19don't know a person okay can do it but in prison  everything comes to one thing you say no to KGB
60. 8:26and that's it you fulfilled everything you know  all your obligations to your wife to your family
61. 8:33to your country to your people to your history  - to mankind you did already so then there are
62. 8:41some discomfort they'll put you in punishing cell  cold hung and so but it's all physical and as you
63. 8:51know already what did I very early understood in  fact the very first seconds of Timaeus think oh
64. 8:59they already was for few years a free person  meaning it's speaking my mind freely so and I
65. 9:08could already understand the only thing which  really belongs to me is my inner freedom and
66. 9:14that's the only thing we should have to keep that  I'm really responsible I'm not responsible - and
67. 9:22now that they arrested me I am NOT responsible  for my body they can do whatever they want they
68. 9:26put all my belongings and so but but they cannot  take from me my freedom if I will not agree to
69. 9:38give it to them so from this point repeated after  you overcome in the first weeks and they describe
70. 9:45the book I was working on myself so we have this  fear physical fear which you feel each time when
71. 9:51they remind you that they will rostral it means  firing by the firing spot and they used to do it
72. 10:00like few few times your interrogation to remind  that in that if I will not cooperate with them
73. 10:06they'll be rostral they will kill me so you have  really told just to overcome this feeling almost
74. 10:15automatic fear from this world but so it took  like a couple weeks but the moment you overcome
75. 10:22it at the moment you feel that in fact after  all what changed you go in the middle of the
76. 10:29old struggle of Jewish people and people believe  in freedom of all the world and you felt yourself
77. 10:36very important part of this struggle by being  chained in the connecting to the wrong distance
78. 10:43and now physical they moved you few miles to the  other place but all the struggle continues and all
79. 10:52the people who were struggling continue their  struggle and maybe now your view odds are even
80. 10:58more important than before also so and the from  this point you're not alone and also all this
81. 11:06feeling of a rediscovery of your history under  your identity and believe that in the image of
82. 11:16God created a man and all this stays with you and  so the moment you feel that you're not alone and
83. 11:27the world which really belongs to you it's your  inner freedom then all the rest is commentary
84. 11:34so that was really the easiest nine years and  while I was enjoying my 9 years in prison of
85. 11:46course my wife and many others had to work very  hard and think every day and I think none of them
86. 11:51could feel that definitely my wife was telling  that every day every minute she thought is she
87. 11:57doing enough it did she maybe there are some  things to do and she was urgently to organize
88. 12:03telephone call to Margaret Asia to find Joo  who knows Margaret Thatcher that for tomorrow
89. 12:08to meet and so ever every moment you have to  to do why why you are not why you're not doing
90. 12:21everything what you can do so I was saved from  this for nine years I did everything Maxima I
91. 12:28was good GI fulfilled on my command obligations  then but the moment they take you from prison and
92. 12:36throw that's how they did in one day took from  prison and straight through Berlin straight to
93. 12:43my wife then to Israel so the day which started  with prison finished near the hotel in in Giroux
94. 12:52and that's what the end of occasions because  then then you are responsible for every day
95. 13:01to eat more or less to drink tea or coffee -  are these people your friends or your enemies
96. 13:11are they really wishing you well or not whether  what you are doing as a person is all what you
97. 13:19have to do or not whether the u.s. a member of  the government whether your government is doing
98. 13:24the right thing or wrong thing and every moment  so I have to say I came to Israeli politics after
99. 13:34well I after was really stopped for one second  because I want to point out that I recently
100. 13:40learned that gnihton is one of only four non  Americans to receive both the Presidential
101. 13:48Medal of Freedom and the Congressional Gold  Medal and the others were Mandela John Paul
102. 13:56and Mother Teresa and when I mentioned this to  note on this morning he pointed out to me that
103. 14:04it was not at the Congressional Medal of Freedom  he both avi tau and the time received the medal
104. 14:11together and as he points out he was the only  one in that group of four who had a successful
105. 14:15marriage I actually think that particular cast  of mind is what has given him the capacity to
106. 14:30do the very many things that he's done the  ability to see the world and that kind of
107. 14:34perspective when you're in prison and then when  you're in Israeli politics so talk a little bit
108. 14:44about what you learned in nine years of Israeli  politics about Israel you did easily democracy has
109. 15:00so many faces and it's so interesting and it's  so overwhelming and so challenging and Israel
110. 15:10is really every day have to make decisions  on the very best equations which so usually
111. 15:22people own during the war or during some very  major crisis have to think about good and evil
112. 15:28Israelis for good they have to think about it  every moment and if this for a moment forget about
113. 15:37it the people from neighbouring party immediately  will remind them oh no what you're doing is evil
114. 15:44or to the contrary it's so it's it's very vibrant  now for me it was difficult that I think I
115. 15:53discovered that for many dissidents there are not  so many different distance who went to politics
116. 15:58but as a rule they are not really successful why  because descent is always about non compromising
117. 16:07ideological position Paul this is the guard  especially Israeli system but also in you ought
118. 16:12to be sent or congressman also you have to be  ready to make compromises every minute the moment
119. 16:20you are not ready to make compromises do better  resign and by the way I was in for governments
120. 16:25and it was resigned they told to my Prime Minister  that you see for comparison I was in for prisons
121. 16:30and I never resigned so there I felt much more  comfortable than here because it's a moment I
122. 16:38came to the politics in order to succeed with the  integration of 1 million Jews they arose 1 million
123. 16:45Jews who came from the Soviet Union and joined the  country with six million Jews so there was never
124. 16:51you will not find in the history of America or any  of the country moment that suddenly 20 percent of
125. 16:58population adjoining the country population of  don't speak language was not part of the Scotch
126. 17:03I joined the country in few years and that will  heaven with Israel and in fact that integration
127. 17:09is so successful and unbelievable successful  integration and the average level of life today
128. 17:15of those newcomers is a little bit higher than  average in Israel and all the hospitals or the
129. 17:26Academy everything is full of these new but one  of the reasons for this was it very quickly we
130. 17:34understood that you must have political power in  order to be really equal we accepted and to remove
131. 17:40all the news and we created the party and seven  newcomers became members of the parliament and
132. 17:50then many deputy mayors of the cities where the  real integrations happening web became people from
133. 17:58Haifa to beer sheva people who didn't speak even  in Hebrew well they were and that accelerated all
134. 18:05the process of integration immensely but in order  to be able to do it you have to make decisions and
135. 18:15compromises with with all your partners and Prime  Minister well it was the first government of Bibi
136. 18:22Netanyahu and one hand he was good friend because  when I was 5 I was in prison he was ambassador
137. 18:29here and he helped with his advice to my wife  on the other hand there are things that when
138. 18:38I thought we'd have to go straight we were zigzag  so I have to say politics is not comfortable place
139. 18:46for dissidents if you're if your strategy is not  to compromise better not go to well so it worked
140. 18:55for some years when but I felt that my main reason  for which I went to produce we reached and really
141. 19:04it was very successful as to the others I don't  think it's for me and in fact I had told frankly
142. 19:13that my position of close connection between  peace process and human rights is not something
143. 19:22which is understood or accepted where left of  my right so it happened so that I was accused
144. 19:28to be a right-wing simply because then it was also  agreement and I was writing and speaking against
145. 19:36because the idea was that we're Prime Minister  it is good for us that yes Arafat is a dictator
146. 19:42it's good the tariff artist without human rights  organizations and Supreme Court and Free Press
147. 19:49because that's what will help him to defeat Hamas  much easier than we will do it and then I wrote
148. 19:55my first article against also I said if you will  be building peace on the fact that he will be our
149. 20:02dictator in the end he will do everything that his  people will hate us because well because that's
150. 20:09the only way for dictator to survive that his  people held external enemy can say then though I
151. 20:16spent nine years neither left nor right did accept  this position it's really dissident position also
152. 20:24for nad States America definitely for Israel later  when we I put it in the document of our party when
153. 20:35we are signing an agreement with I would Barack  joining his government and because then there was
154. 20:42a question of giving away Golan Heights to asset  for peace as a father for peace and we put it on
155. 20:50our plate on that the depth of all concessions  as the depths of democratic changes in Syria we
156. 20:57will and it isn't written but it is left out by  right and by left those the right said what and
157. 21:06if filled with democracy will give go and hide  such a strategic and those that the left said if
158. 21:12you want to make peace you're making peace you're  not asking the tailored and by the way we were
159. 21:16very close in that government to giving away Golan  Heights and we were lucky that acid insisted that
160. 21:24he has to get everything and Barack was ready to  be to keep 100 meters from Kinneret you know what
161. 21:32I'm talking about so thanks God as that was greedy  enough and that here we inside the country against
162. 21:39and it didn't work imagine that later when we have  all what we have in in Syria if we did give him
163. 21:45all this and say doesn't matter where the kids  dictate or not then a chemical weapon would be
164. 21:51the on the shores of canary so I had to say that  I entered the ground with this dissident position
165. 22:00that you cannot disconnect peace process from  civil society and they left it and it is very
166. 22:08difficult question on which to make compromises  and so I think I was successful politician because
167. 22:15the aim for which I came to politics we did really  implement some other people who say well about it
168. 22:25because and many people say he's ridiculous with  his phrase we can't descend he wants peace so he
169. 22:31doesn't want to be want greater Israel test what  rate is oh and in fact I I don't believe in peace
170. 22:38which will not be built on civil society both on  our side and all societies and the third thing
171. 22:45Jewish Agency I have to say I came to Jewish  Agency when Bibi Netanyahu as a politician yeah
172. 22:55now you've already said that you thought that you  were a more successful prisoner a very successful
173. 23:04prisoner because of your ability to resist and to  maintain internally integrity do you think that
174. 23:18you saw in Israeli politics that integrity was  sustainable look you know what I'd say that I saw
175. 23:31more integrity in Israeli policy than in American  politics ok did I you see a lot of it there is no
176. 23:37I don't even invite you here to criticize ok no  integrity and politics it's incompatible things
177. 23:46they try to explain that in both it's all about  compromise every day and sometime and if you
178. 23:55feel that they cannot accept this compromise you  should better resign from the politics because the
179. 24:01politicians who stops making compromises he well  definitely in Israel little system can survive but
180. 24:08also in your system and well I might be a little  bit aggressive because now I am fed of this in
181. 24:20Europe especially I remember in the beginning of  2000 I was explained by many relating journalists
182. 24:27that the piece is so close to the Middle East  and everything is so good and it's only because
183. 24:34of ezel and then I give them always four names  in terms of integrity you here are four names
184. 24:41who are better friends of peace and I approach  all the times dictatorship democracy and I give
185. 24:52them Mubarak acid Qaddafi Netanyahu and always  dance who always was all that was abroad but it
186. 25:01does matter Mubarak is the best hope for peace  I said no of course he is dictator but he is
187. 25:11a reformer and that's why there is hope Qaddafi  already showed that he is open to compromise on
188. 25:20nuclear weapons and so on so and the only problem  is something young and then I said wait a minute
189. 25:27but it's the dictator of democracy he's elected  and they say well elected not elected but if only
190. 25:33he'll agreeable then there was an Arab Spring and  Mubarak by the way exactly as in case of democracy
191. 25:41we both predict barukh Apple was Morocco acid this  didn't happen because Putin saved him and Obama
192. 25:48permitted him to save him and and Qaddafi's Kevin  and I say now okay what is number one problem for
193. 25:59pieces on the answer the same if only Netanyahu so  my problem is integrity the gold doesn't want to
194. 26:08see any connection between you know Christie human  rights and peace so yes I I don't feel comfortable
195. 26:16in his a little policy because of the lack of  integrity I still feel that much more integrity
196. 26:21in Israeli policy then in many other countries in  Europe and even in America that time you have six
197. 26:31grandchildren when you left Israel two weeks ago  yeah you are going to be threescore and ten three
198. 26:40seventy what in your view when you look back  on it now can you say are there people who have
199. 26:53endured in your mind as models of integrity in a  complicated world is there anyone who you can look
200. 27:02at tech do people who King David is my wife well  said grandmother of your six grandchildren all
201. 27:14right so now we before we go to questions let's  talk a little bit about the Jewish Agency not so
202. 27:20much what it does but this current challenge  we'll call it in which the Israeli community
203. 27:31of Jews and the American community of Jews have a  fundamental disagreement on something which seems
204. 27:40relatively easy or narrow but is in fact deeply  profoundly fundamental and that is who gets to
205. 27:47pray where at the Wailing Wall talk a little bit  about how you confront the issue and where it
206. 27:56stands yep okay but going back to the integrity  of people that it's really I feel very strongly
207. 28:04that it's this order my wife and then King  David but there are two people very important
208. 28:10people who who because of their integrity played  such important role this was Andrei Sakharov my
209. 28:18teacher I can say my railway because he was not  Jewish but the leader of human rights movement
210. 28:22who had tremendous influence on me and wherever  I am Minister attribution see we you have to have
211. 28:30the portrait of President and Prime Minister but  they ported over sucker was always bigger than
212. 28:35the airport the other man if even if you disagree  it's President Reagan who is called Soviet Union
213. 28:44he will impire in spite of the fact that all his  advisors were so explaining him that's politically
214. 28:50incorrect now your present you cannot do it and  the fact that he called evil empire Soviet Union
215. 28:57evil empire first of all it was the best day that  we had in prison when we read in Soviet newspaper
216. 29:02that American president code so it and second  that he brought a lot of moral clarity in these
217. 29:09relations and they do believe it very important  so I don't know much about his previous life and
218. 29:15other aspects of his presidency but he integrity  and approach to the international relations well
219. 29:24this specific question was extremely important  the Wailing Wall now for something simple okay
220. 29:32Jewish Agency for those who don't know that of the  organization which is before creation with was in
221. 29:39fact you either the government and after it has  special method of connecting Israel with Jewish
222. 29:46communities and three and a half million Jews made  aliya came to Israel from all over the world after
223. 29:54creation of Israel through Jewish Agency when I  came to the Jewish Agency in fact I made the shift
224. 30:01which was made long ago in the Jewish world but  to institutions as always the last Squad changing
225. 30:09and I will shift from making the special emphasis  on Aliyah to make a special emphasis on building
226. 30:15bridges between Israel and Jewish communities and  strengthening and with many good important things
227. 30:23that we are doing in one thing how unique role  became special in Aikido us yes we are the only
228. 30:35our Board of Governors in fact it's the only form  that I know where representative the government
229. 30:42represents with the opposition and the leaders  of Jewish Federations from all the world and the
230. 30:48leaders of reformed and conservative movement  together with the leaders of Modern Orthodoxy
231. 30:53as sitting together discussing together debating  together making decisions together unfortunately
232. 30:59it's there is a long history why when Israel was  created in fact reformed and conservative jury
233. 31:07was not part of this formula and as Ben Gurion  who will think in terms of creating one Jewish
234. 31:14community after all these years of the aspera we  don't need all these differences we'll have one
235. 31:20huge community one language one culture Jewish  Polish culture that is from now will be culture
236. 31:28American Jews and Mexican Jews and everybody and  one religion who needs all these differences the
237. 31:35synagogue to which I don't go said ben-gurion is  Orthodox synagogue so or you go to synagogue we
238. 31:41don't go but why do we need all these differences  look the idea was really nobody knows whether
239. 31:48it was the possible to make it different because  nobody created recreated the nation from hundreds
240. 31:55different pieces for two thousand years people  lived in different cultures then they come and
241. 32:00become one nation again so if it seems critical  I am critical of other things that when grown did
242. 32:07but nobody except from him succeeded to do it for  thousands years so we don't know whether there was
243. 32:13other way but ok the world is developing and this  support of American Jews which was without any
244. 32:22but who cares whether they are socialist economy  capitalist economy whether they are they don't
245. 32:28go to Orthodox rule they don't go to if it's our  child Israel we'd have to save him that was more
246. 32:36less with the time it's not a poor child it's very  successful nation very interesting the society and
247. 32:45it wants to be the home for every Jew and what  we're saying if you want to be home for every
248. 32:51Jew it must be not only for every Jew but for his  rabbi or whoever and and and for their community
249. 32:59and so they have to feel comfortable in Israel to  live to stay to pray and here comes and so Jewish
250. 33:09Agency became the center of this dialogue because  there is no other forum where you can organize
251. 33:15meeting when I was member cressid and try to  organize meeting between the Knesset members
252. 33:20and the leaders of reform moment it was impossible  because all total squatters who not permitted so
253. 33:26Jesse didn't have these restrictions and we and in  fact the question of the pray and near the Kotel
254. 33:35which because of the unique powerful symbolism of  this place I don't think that other nations have
255. 33:43such a place which the same time is number one  religious symbol and number one national symbol
256. 33:49for all throughout history that is the most  important national that's the most important
257. 33:54nation which is returning after exile and that's  by far the most important religious place the
258. 34:03nation and so whether you have a place to pray  it's the break how you pray in your cities became
259. 34:12very important in terms of recognition and that  there was a lot of infighting and with involvement
260. 34:20of police and way and it's a more Prime Minister  asked me as a kind of Jewish agency but also going
261. 34:24my this to check if it is possible to bring all  the sides to the initiation table and I brought
262. 34:33them to the measure and we had four years of  negotiations and Prime Minister personally put a
263. 34:39lot of effort that it will succeed and then seated  and we found a compromise and then ultra-lux quite
264. 34:49add to the count voted for ease and it was a  very important message for each note and then
265. 34:55some moment Prime Minister was threatened  by ultra-luxe parties that he will have no
266. 35:01government if he will not cancel it and he frozen  happened four months as gold which brought two big
267. 35:07crisis so here we definitely hear I definitely  have serious disagreement with my friend and
268. 35:13Prime Minister I delay that he looks on it as a  tactical issue relational with the last product
269. 35:21it can be corrected if you have another thousand  years to correct it while keeping collection as a
270. 35:27strategical issue because we need to fight Iran we  need to fire them that's why we need our coalition
271. 35:34and I believe I think absolutely opposite I think  relation with the sprayer is our strategic issues
272. 35:43our main strategic asset and collisions come and  go ministers resign and join that's tactics once
273. 35:53a dissident always it is it now there's a c-span  camera here and so if you ask we have mics okay
274. 36:03so if you have a question please address it to  the mic when the mic comes to you keep it short
275. 36:11so you did a bunch in and let's begin I thought  there might be a handshake and or two right here
276. 36:24groaning my name is dr. ed Edward powers I'm  a hunter college student believe it or not my
277. 36:33question what do we know about the russian-chinese  connection it's reported that this I was told by a
278. 36:43quote-unquote Russian banker that Vladimir Putin  as leasing farmland in Siberia to the Chinese and
279. 36:55that the Chinese are going to populate that area  with the second child who as you know really has
280. 37:03no status in Chinese society and I'll finish by  saying I asked Henry Kissinger and his comment
281. 37:12to me was that the Chinese view Siberia as their  land and they're going home thank you you have
282. 37:2030 seconds to reply though I'm not confident  of Chinese government and even of President
283. 37:31Putin so I don't know but I can tell you the one  who wasn't say Barry and my wife grew in Siberia
284. 37:38and whose child and I went through different  stages of relations between Soviet Union and
285. 37:45China from unlimited friendship and we were  singing songs about that Russia and China are
286. 37:53friends forever when I was in kindergarten and  we are participating in demonstrations against
287. 37:58Chinese embassy when I was into the school  so I know the difference I can tell you I
288. 38:03think it's simply so obvious that here are huge  empty lands of Siberia along the border China I
289. 38:14was there visiting some of my people in exile  you can go for hundreds of miles and see you
290. 38:21hundred people here cuz they're on the other  side of the border there is all populated with
291. 38:29Chinese people the less so I think potential for  the Russia which is keeping every square metre
292. 38:38the man from Israel to give away a lot of land  but they have not enough so they keep keeping
293. 38:43every square metre there are four small Japanese  islands and the Japan was proposing hundreds of
294. 38:50billions of dollars and they were not ready to  give it back and when they were sweat but you
295. 38:56are so big why do we need this for islands so  that was and how you think you became so big
296. 39:03so for Russia it's against all the nature of the  history of this country to give away everything
297. 39:10but if you look at the physics here is the the  most empty lands and one meter after this the
298. 39:18most populated so I I think it's strategical the  biggest threat opportunity for us if Russia will
299. 39:25decide some moment that to keep the territories is  not very important that you can give ten percents
300. 39:31of Siberia for lease to China who knows maybe  that's great opportunity but I always felt let's
301. 39:40very unstable situation when here you on one hand  you have the most empty land in the world and the
302. 39:47other part of the body of the most populated  ok another question right over here your man
303. 39:56hi my name is Sam Ketchum ocker I'm a student here  at Macaulay Honors College my question is what do
304. 40:05you think is Russia's role in the Middle East  today especially given what's going on in Syria
305. 40:11and with America kind of leaving the picture and  also given the painful history between Russia and
306. 40:21its Jews what is the appropriate relationship  that Israel should have with Russia today well
307. 40:27look on one hand it's very easy for me to be  speak about Putin as a dissident and Putin
308. 40:37as a former KGB officer and not a big friend  I will speak of democracy on the other hand
309. 40:45it's very difficult for me to speak negatively  about Putin as a Jewish activist at the one who
310. 40:51now we have a huge operation in Russia with  the Jews there are many Jews who are living
311. 40:58because of putting their bread in jewels for  building their communities because of wooden
312. 41:04Putin I would say is the first not anti-semite  leading Russian thousand years well there was
313. 41:11of course Gorbachev and Gorbachev for a very  short period he is not anti-semite you can say
314. 41:15may I can say a lot of very bad things about  Putin he's not anti-semite he is permitting
315. 41:23or supporting urine development of Jewish  communities if they want and keep creates
316. 41:28no problems for us Jewish Agency to to help those  who want to emigrate to emigrate and to those who
317. 41:35want to build their America now at the same  time the same Putin is extremely problematic
318. 41:41for democracy in Russia I don't have to go further  need dependence of the courts from the authorities
319. 41:53corruption you name it things and many of my  friends dissidents again find themselves in
320. 42:00this capacity of foreign agents as if you are  back in so it's very long as to the Middle East
321. 42:10with all this sympathy which Putin has to Israel
322. 42:14because it's russian-speaking land  for him yeah and he really has an
323. 42:21his main policy is against America and for  him it's very earlier it became clear to me
324. 42:32from our conversation almost twenty years ago  that woo him Iran is not so that he does have
325. 42:39policy towards Iran he was positive the United  States of America that's his way to show to
326. 42:45America the deal should better take him serious  and the same about Syria and here I have to say
327. 42:51the one who really built riad not built Putin  because Putin built himself but helped him to
328. 43:00become so big again he's your present President  Obama previous president and at the world by the
329. 43:07way I don't see this one much difference between  policy of President Obama or President Trump the
330. 43:15Middle East I mean not about Israel I mean about  in fact what Russia is doing there the fact that
331. 43:23that American president put a clear red line  to Syria that if you will use chemical weapons
332. 43:32that that will be the end and didn't do it in  he didn't say it's one thing he said Russians
333. 43:41watched very carefully and then he didn't deliver  and Russians made their condition by the way the
334. 43:47same was with Crimea Putin before he went to  Crimea for a for a week he was increasing his
335. 43:54statements that that we cannot accept the station  people will not accept it and was watching what's
336. 44:01happening in Europe and in America and only when  he understood there'll be no reaction he was did
337. 44:08thing which for the first time of the Helsinki  agreement there was changing of the borders by
338. 44:15force so the fact that we have now Russian  base in Syria which if Russia would decide
339. 44:26they can control the airspace and the sea it's  very dangerous even though we have this Maltese
340. 44:35all has a good relations with Russia but doesn't  matter it's change for the first time we have a
341. 44:41situation when you're on makes go straight to our  borders and Hizballah in fact becomes part of the
342. 44:50army of Iran Russia with the base and America is  watching let's really I don't remember it my I
343. 45:01remember very bad situations and easil today is  much better stage then and all this was but the
344. 45:07fact that Russia could change their strategical  presence in dramatic way and America was in one
345. 45:14another way accepting it that's what's happening  I think that that's very dangerous you know our
346. 45:21Prime Minister will never say it because Prime  Minister tries to be very friendly with Russian
347. 45:27president the American president and problem she  has no choice that's the compromise which you
348. 45:32are doing when you're in politics I say I think  it's very legislation what's happening between
349. 45:38Hezbollah Iran Syria Russia with America watching  time for two more quick questions right here
350. 45:53thank you I'm Cynthia Roberts yes yes Pradesh  yes sir mr. Novotny political I want to follow
351. 46:03up this point it's striking perhaps to Americans  who don't realize this how strong and productive
352. 46:11Russia's rather Israel's relations are with  Russia and colleagues in the Israeli government
353. 46:18or former government officials and a whole host  of other people have expressed surprised that
354. 46:25America has so much trouble figuring out how to  deal with Russia sanctions don't work carrots
355. 46:33don't work and yet the Israeli government has  worked better so my follow-up question to you
356. 46:38is have you are you making this point about  positive relations between the Prime Minister
357. 46:43and Putin from a standpoint of good relations on  the religious side which I have also seen that you
358. 46:50know President Putin supports the jewish museum  the chief rabbi it's extraordinary how a leader
359. 46:56of Russia is so positive toward the Jewish  community but what about Israel in terms of
360. 47:01strategic interests would you recommend that the  Prime Minister draw his own red lines and if so
361. 47:08where would they be thank you well look that we  are coming back to this initial my initial point
362. 47:15while not in politics I do believe that we have  now also taken to account what's happening with
363. 47:24democracy in this or that country but I have  to say of course it is much more difficult for
364. 47:29Israel to depart to do to demand it from Israel  to connect our relations with Moscow over the
365. 47:38India for this case with whether the leader is  democratic or not when America and Europe are
366. 47:45not doing this so yes I I would I will not go into  my personal conversation with Prime Minister but
367. 47:53I would like to see from all the leaders of  the free world they'd be much more sensitive
368. 47:57to the creation of democracy to keep open the  channels with the dissidents in those countries
369. 48:07and such a thing now as to relations between  Russia and Israel everything what is about
370. 48:18Jewish community and well Jewish character and  cultural relations is really very good they can
371. 48:25tell that there is a lot of corruption let's say  some local Jewish community somewhere in Siberia
372. 48:31has problems with local authorities because they  are trying they think if there are Jews there are
373. 48:37money and they try together if it becomes really  impossible all through us over themselves they
374. 48:44find their way to go to the central authority  it is a rule third Authority is protecting each
375. 48:50command it's something unheard of in in Russian  history not not only in the times of brainy but
376. 48:56in the thousand years of Russian history but again  the power games over this ambitions of Russia to
377. 49:05be superpower and to be on equals America that's  something much more important well I think it
378. 49:14wouldn't personally or not--and the sense very  well the fundamentalist Muslim threat to Russia
379. 49:22when the mental scan when they cut Russian -  if you'll see where the Muslim power isn't but
380. 49:31that's what the long run the immediate future he  needs Iran as a way of pressure on America Putin
381. 49:43personally was saying and I call him that Russian  weapon never will be used against Israel but when
382. 49:51we had a second Evelyn Bohr and I was under some  committee and Knesset and they saw these packages
383. 49:57of cornets carnet to this anti-tank missiles which  were used against our soldiers and many soldiers
384. 50:03were killed and they you look at the Box weight  is reduced it is tula its tool as its factory
385. 50:10weapons then in the next dome idea they were into  the airfield near moscow and then the masks syria
386. 50:17and then goes to his book so I I can't say it is  that Putin permits keepers probably does permit
387. 50:24but she doesn't stop it and so is the fact that  now we have such a huge strategic state Cerreto
388. 50:31his abolish Syria and Iran and they again I don't  want to over dramatize it's by far more powerful
389. 50:38than the in the past but we have strategic threat  terrorists are connected to the government of
390. 50:46Syria they are connected now to Iranian army  and Russian base appears in the middle so it
391. 50:55doesn't matter how good is attitude of Putin to  Jewish community does help us from this way so
392. 51:03we are gonna ask you a final yes-or-no question  because we're really out of time and that is if
393. 51:10we invite you next year will you come back well  such great statements [Music] happy to be in
394. 51:24your house it's it's really power house ideas  and we have yeah Harold Holzer the director
395. 51:33I'm inviting him back to my accomplices  I can't say no so here here [Applause]