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ROUNDTABLE - Alternative Luxury in Hospitality, Tourism, Food, and Beyond - by Institut LYFE — Transcript

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0:02discussions, but that's fine. Um, but
0:05yeah, let's let's kick start otherwise
0:06we're going to be late. So, thank you so
0:09much uh for joining this round table
0:11number one of the aliens network. Um, I
0:15am Maximoise. I will be the moderator
0:17today for this session. Um the idea is
0:21that we're going to talk with um three
0:24different person about alternative
0:25luxury uh reimagining re-imagining
0:29luxury in hospitality, tourism, food and
0:32beyond. Uh we'd like to stick to a 45 50
0:36minutes duration
0:38um round table and um yeah that's that
0:42will be about it. So my name is Maxim as
0:45I mentioned I'm in charge of the
0:46network. Uh I work at the institute life
0:49here in France. Uh I've been working
0:52here for 9 years. I'm also a former
0:54students of uh the institute life both
0:56in the bachelor degrees and master's
0:58degree in culinary leadership and
0:59innovation. Um and today's team is
1:02really interesting. Um we'd like to to
1:06see what counts in luxury in a world
1:09facing social and environmental
1:11challenges. So we gathered um Zyakilova,
1:15Jonathan Lear and Rahul Mata for this
1:18amazing round table. Um also I will
1:22invite you um dear participants to to
1:25stick with your questions until the end
1:28to turn your microphone off uh during
1:31the the first part of the session. But
1:34keep your questions um in hand for Q&A
1:38at the end. uh if you have anything to
1:40ask that will be the moment uh and after
1:43let's say 354 minutes we'll take 10
1:45minutes for for the questions um so
1:49first of all uh Genya I'd like to
1:50introduce herself a bit
1:54is um a research I mean she's working
1:56here at life she holds a PhD in hotel
1:59marketing and she has also she holds an
2:02HD air uh in management sciences uh she
2:06has over nine years of industry
2:08experiences is in the food and beverage
2:10sector. She has published over 40
2:12articles. I don't know if this is
2:14accurate, Zena. Maybe more than that
2:16now.
2:16>> Well, there more than that now, but it
2:18doesn't matter. It's okay.
2:19>> Yeah. In
2:22leading academic journals, she serves as
2:24an editor of the analys of tourism
2:27research empirical insights.
2:30Um I would like also to uh welcome
2:33Jonathan Lear. Uh so uh he's a professor
2:36of culinary arts and mil sciences at
2:39Orio University in Sweden. He's actually
2:42in holidays and he's giving some times
2:44for us today. So thank you so much
2:46Jonathan. Uh he has published a widely
2:50in studies and gender studies. uh he's
2:53currently um a co-PI in of the research
2:57project masculinities in the green
2:59transition transition looking at how
3:02masculinities are negotiating negotiated
3:05in Denmark's green transition uh he's
3:08also finishing his book food porn food
3:10aesthetics in digital age coordina
3:14ker I don't know if this is spelled
3:16correctly which examine changing
3:19representation of gender in food media
3:22is that complete Chonatan
3:25>> amazing
3:26>> very good thank you so much
3:27>> that's a very interesting research area
3:29can't wait to know more
3:31>> yes it's really interesting and finally
3:33glad to introduce Rahul Mata Dr. uh he's
3:37um a doctor researcher here at the
3:39institute life uh and he's working um
3:43under the research center here. His work
3:47sits at the intersection of anthropology
3:49of food critical heritage studies,
3:52cultural studies focusing on the social
3:54and political uses of food and cooking.
3:58uh he has held research and teaching
4:00position in France, Germany, Malaysia
4:03with field work in Peru, Mexico,
4:05Germany, Malaysia and led major project
4:08funded um here in France by DFG
4:13uh and another one that I'm I'm going to
4:16misspell so I'm not going to mention but
4:18maybe how will you want to elaborate a
4:20bit more but thank you so much for being
4:22here as
4:28Thank you.
4:29>> Okay. All right. All right. So to open
4:32up uh together we'll reflect on what
4:34should should count as luxury in a
4:37changing world. Uh questioning whether
4:39alternative luxury is a genuine shift of
4:43simply a redefinition of traditional
4:45luxury. We'll look at how
4:48sustainability, well-being,
4:50craftsmanship, food, nature, local
4:53communities are reshaping luxury
4:55experiences and touch on the ferical
4:57lenses that help us to uh to make the
5:01sense of this. Um so first I would like
5:04to know a bit more if alternative luxury
5:07is really new. Um do you think it's
5:12luxury rebranded or is it something
5:14really new? Um Raul Kenya uh Jonathan
5:18the floor is yours if someone is willing
5:20to answer this first question. It's your
5:22turn.
5:27>> Maybe each of us has opportunity to
5:29speak because I think we have a little
5:30bit different perspectives first. Okay.
5:33>> Yeah. Go ahead. I see you unmuting
5:36microphone.
5:36>> Oh, okay.
5:39Well, I think that uh luxury is not a
5:42close concept. It's a term. It's a
5:45notion that is used by many people. So
5:47therefore it can be
5:49rebranded. It can be rethought. It can
5:52be you know um transformed
5:58uh depending on consequences
6:00and I think that alternative alternative
6:03luxury is a new way of perceiving
6:08uh
6:10not let's say exclusivity or something.
6:13And this that contains a different kind
6:15of value and
6:18which goes beyond the usual way we see
6:22luxury which is more product and price
6:26uh focused. So yeah, I think there is
6:29something
6:31new and is really deeply connected with
6:35uh
6:37changes, social changes,
6:41I would say ecological changes are now
6:44being a big a big uh engine of this uh
6:49transformation of luxury. we can just
6:52continue later. But I think that yeah,
6:54basically it's something that is I would
6:58say is more recent.
7:01>> Thank you. Thank you so much
7:04Jamatan. What do you think?
7:08>> Go ahead SA please.
7:10>> Okay. Well, I will speak from a a little
7:12bit different perspective because I
7:14study those phenomena really in a
7:17context of hospitality and tourism
7:18experiences as opposed to food as
7:21Jonathan and Raul do. Uh so in luxury I
7:25guess it didn't it we have seen quite a
7:28transformation but this transformation
7:30hasn't been even across cultural and
7:32geographical context. So what we see in
7:35European in Europe especially let's say
7:37France and Switzerland is not quite what
7:39we see let's say in um in North American
7:42market or Latin America, Central America
7:45and we are I'm not specifically talking
7:47where hotel is located per se as opposed
7:49to which kind of guest they're serving.
7:52Me coming I I study uh consumer
7:54lifestyle experiences. So hotel in
7:57France you'll be serving a certain type
7:59of guest right? So hotel in Costa Rica
8:01certain type of guests and these guests
8:02are not exactly the same and because
8:05consumers expecting something different
8:07the definition of luxury has changed
8:10what they're expecting. Uh so the de the
8:13offer had to go along with that. And uh
8:16in the hospitality sector we don't
8:18particularly use idea of alternative
8:20luxury. We use something for example
8:23lifestyle luxury or we say hedonic
8:25luxury anti-hedanic luxury. So we call a
8:28demonic luxury or in uh more English
8:31simpler English terms we call it
8:33meaningful luxury.
8:35So luxury be going away from this idea
8:38of exclusivity although sense of
8:40exclusivity actually still there and we
8:43can speak about it more uh when we talk
8:45about directions. I would be very
8:46curious to see how Jonathan and Ro see
8:48that as well but u more from ex from a
8:52point of meaning. So it's no uh no
8:55longer about me able to enjoy
8:57excessiveness or opulence. It's me being
9:00able to enjoy something that is also
9:02give me a sense of meaning. I cannot
9:04simply go somewhere else and purchase.
9:06So uh luxury has traditionally targeted
9:10people who have very significant
9:12resources right high netw worth
9:15individuals and uh in a situation
9:18especially in a context of ultra luxury
9:21when people can afford when your
9:23customer can afford anything they want
9:25uh it's becomes less luxury it loses the
9:28sense of exclusivity right so uh what
9:32how can we create or still deliver on
9:34that on that aspect effect while at the
9:37same time giving giving different
9:40changing landscape. Right? So there many
9:42hospitality businesses um restaurants
9:44included in fact has transitioned into
9:46that aspect of meaning and they actually
9:49following uh on idea how we bring
9:51something meaningful together that they
9:53cannot get in any other aspent
9:58returned from Costa Rica where actually
10:00I spent 10 days with my colleague in
10:03exactly context of where the owner tries
10:07to create the sense of alternative
10:09luxury as we discuss it today. So as you
10:11can see from my perspective it's a
10:13little bit different. It's from a
10:14perspective of which kind of experience
10:16we want to deliver to the guest in a
10:19context of very changing landscape in
10:21sustainability regeneration and all of
10:23that but at the same time want to
10:25deliver on sense of exclusivity in a
10:27more meaningful manner.
10:30>> Thank you. Thank you so much Jonathan.
10:33>> Yeah thank you so much for having for
10:36putting up this question on this panel.
10:38I think it's really good and I think
10:39it's very uh insightful what uh Raul and
10:44SA already have have put into that you
10:46can yeah understand this in very
10:48different ways and I also think it's an
10:51important point what you point to Maxim
10:53with this is a new thing and I think if
10:56we look back in the history of of
11:00humanity you always see on the one hand
11:02that a lot of like striving towards
11:05opulence consumer exclusivity ity
11:08hierarchies defined by that and at the
11:11same time there's also very often a kind
11:13of critique of that and different ways
11:16of monitoring that and I think
11:18previously it's been very much like uh
11:21also the role of for instance religion
11:22to kind of set some kind of boundaries
11:25on to how on how to much for instance
11:27with fast things stuff like that um that
11:30I think has been traditionally so I
11:31think that's always been a kind of
11:32tension in many cultures between on the
11:35one hand striving for something exclus
11:37exclusive, extraordinary, unattainable
11:39only for the very few. Uh and then on
11:42the other hand, this idea of not being
11:44too extravagant that has always been uh
11:47looked down upon. And I think there's a
11:48lot of that uh that we also see right
11:51now. There's a lot of what I find very
11:53interesting also these kind of of
11:55dilemas when you try to uh be more
11:59sustainable
12:01um and at the same time cater to um a
12:06certain uh audience at the same time
12:09having a very high for instance in the
12:12Nordic region where I where I live um
12:15we've had this whole new Nordic uh
12:19restaurant way um which is very
12:21interesting trying really to do a lot of
12:23local food a lot of um food that is is
12:27sourced that is done in sustainable ways
12:30and at the same time I think it's quite
12:32interesting there's some dilemas when
12:34you have to pay I don't know 6 or €800
12:37to eat this food is also a very there's
12:40some kind of very strange paradox in
12:43that um because then of course that is
12:46super super elitist uh while claiming uh
12:49to be sustainable and and changing food
12:52systems and and all these kind of
12:54things. So there's a lot of really I
12:55think interesting
12:57>> dilemas uh within all of that. Um and
13:00also I I I see um well a perspective I
13:04also find very interesting and probably
13:06why I I was also invited here today this
13:09idea of alternative honism that I have
13:12been working a lot with. So it's a
13:14concept by Kate Sober um a philosopher
13:18who then tries to introduce an idea of
13:22the good life beyond consumerism. So how
13:26can we um kind of detach the
13:30capitalistic understanding of if a good
13:32life is having a big car, big steak,
13:35traveling around the world, all these
13:37kind of luxury ideas that's always tied
13:40to consumption. But how can we somehow
13:42also uh detain detach
13:46uh hedonism from uh yeah super kind of
13:50of consumption? Very briefly, I can come
13:52with some examples if you're interested.
13:55Thank you so much uh Jonathan very
13:58insightful to kickstart our um our round
14:01table and and I'd like to ask a question
14:04because you you you all three mentioned
14:06that um that idea of exclusivity that
14:10goes with uh with with luxury but can
14:13luxury exist without exclusivity this is
14:16a real questions that I think we're all
14:18asking ourselves um when it's not
14:21exclusive can it be luxury and vice
14:24versa
14:28That's a very good question actually.
14:30But I
14:32I mean that made me think of what SA
14:35said about meaning
14:37because actually when we are looking for
14:40an experience that gives you meaning
14:44this is a very individual aspect that
14:47you're trying to fit in. So um I think
14:51that in some way the quest of meaning is
14:54related to the quest of
14:57individual
14:58>> Mhm.
14:59>> and an identity. So in some way yeah
15:02there is some exclusivity because it's
15:04something that is for you. It's a kind
15:08of consumption or practice or experience
15:10that is for you but of of course it can
15:12be shared as well. So um there's this
15:16thing is exclusive but also can bring
15:19upon the idea of a community
15:22a community of shared values of shared
15:24knowledge and so on.
15:29Yeah this is what I think so it's a
15:33it's a different it's a different way to
15:35see exclusivity actually it's more like
15:38a community building.
15:41All right. Thank you so much. I will um
15:45we'll stick with community building. I
15:47think it's really really interesting.
15:48Zenaia, what do you think? Well, it's
15:51actually interesting you ask because I
15:53have just recently read an article
15:55written by a hotel professional and it
15:58went quite uh widely distributed on
16:00LinkedIn about my around my network and
16:03the article was actually critique of
16:05regenerative hospitality and critique
16:07was and it's I actually it's when you
16:10think about it it's I he has made very
16:14good points there. So we have seen a lot
16:16of luxury regenerative uh hospitality
16:19resorts, hotels all over the world
16:21popping up. So myself included, the one
16:24I visited in Costa Rica, it was a luxury
16:26retreat and resort. So we do not see
16:29budget hotels or mid range or fourstar
16:32hotels regenerative. So if here we're
16:35talking about sustainability and how
16:37important it is regenerative,
16:39yet these experiences are only
16:41accessible to very few. So the question
16:44the industry practitioner actually
16:46industry person makes and I I don't
16:48remember what he does actually what his
16:50role is is it actually truly
16:53regenerative is it socially just when we
16:56actually take this idea and make it only
16:58accessible to very few there is a reason
17:01for that it's cost much more to create
17:04regenerative experiences or even
17:05sustainability more in terms of
17:07investment another reason because this
17:10uh target market that they basically
17:12looking for right? Also cares more.
17:14That's people who are more educated.
17:16Especially when we talk about North
17:17American market, they're more educated.
17:20They want their money to travel further.
17:23So, they want to make this kind of
17:24sustainable choices as well. But it's a
17:26real question. And that was a real
17:28critique. I don't have an answer to it,
17:29but I think it kind of gives a little
17:31bit of a cold shower to our very overly
17:35enthusiastic
17:36uh perspective about oh, we should all
17:39go regenerative sustainability and all
17:40of that. But uh so every every single
17:43business so far I have seen I have
17:44stayed or I have spoke to it was
17:46actually five star right so that's a
17:49question to be answered I don't have an
17:50answer here but I think I very much
17:52agree with this critique another point
17:54about Raul um there has been an article
17:57it's not nothing not really particularly
17:59new and the article it's academic
18:02article researchers here from our
18:03neighboring institution our partner
18:05institution name actually they ask a
18:08question what makes a true a luxury
18:11field through luxury in a service
18:13setting. So they haven't actually
18:15studied hotels or restaurants. They
18:18actually looked at at hospitals and
18:20doctors and uh actually what consumers
18:23feel a true luxury. It's a social
18:26connection. It's not about facilities,
18:28it's not about um uh food, it's actually
18:33the level of connection they feel with a
18:36provider and other customers. So going
18:38back to point of Raul indeed humans
18:41again and I'm speaking very much from a
18:43consumer perspective because that's what
18:45I study humans we are very social
18:47creatures we crave the contact and seems
18:50like what uh actually makes an
18:52experience luxuries it's less about
18:54exclusivity and more about which kind of
18:57social contact you able to deliver and
18:59seems like with all this technology AI
19:01chat bots and all of that social contact
19:04becomes even more valuable commodity and
19:06more exclusive of commodity and so it's
19:09very goes very much along with Raul's
19:12observation. So anyway that's what I
19:14wanted to share with you whether
19:15exclusivity is important. I think
19:17exclusive sense of exclusivity will
19:20continue to be important. It's our human
19:21nature. It's one of our fundamental
19:23motivations to show our social
19:25hierarchy. Right? If you even go back to
19:28mus
19:29foundation of of needs it's also one of
19:32the very tops. But the question remains
19:35through which means which medium we can
19:38deliver on the sense of exclusivity and
19:40if before that was opulence it was a
19:42facilities it was anything you want at
19:44your whim now it seems to be different
19:47it seems to be a social connection and a
19:49sense of meaning that what makes it
19:51luxury
19:52>> thank you thank you so much uh let's now
19:56bring the conversations to to Jonathan
19:59what do you think Jonathan
20:01>> I I I think it's very interesting
20:03the points that just were made out and
20:05and also what Sea says about
20:07regenerative and sustainability factor
20:10that is it really regenerative and I
20:12think very important for whom because
20:14always when we talk about hospitality
20:16and food it's always very much embedded
20:19in in in a context in networks in um in
20:24all these kind of things where you
20:25really have to um be should we say yeah
20:30looking at very different kind of
20:31actions and often very complex system
20:34also with different types of of actors
20:37uh in there. Um but but I think to going
20:40back to your question also I I have an
20:43example I discussed in an article uh uh
20:46about designing um sustainable food
20:49experiences where I went to the fair
20:53islands with a group of students uh and
20:55had two very different experiences. So,
20:57one was at the the local um I don't know
21:00if you know where the Fair Island is.
21:01So, it's a little above um above
21:04Scotland uh between Scotland and Iceland
21:07more or less in the middle of nowhere.
21:09Very isolated group of islands with uh
21:12yeah around 50,000 inhabitants.
21:15Um and it's it's uh it's a very
21:18interesting place in many ways. It's
21:20also very interesting food culture. Um
21:23and in one of the days we went to the
21:26local Michelin star restaurant Cox which
21:28was amazing experience. Um but very
21:32traditional experience also in the sense
21:34that you were a guest seated uh
21:36reserving and receiving food being
21:39catered to and so on according to the
21:41the Michelin guides ideals. Um although
21:44it was also twisted a little bit. But uh
21:47then another day we went uh to an
21:50isolated island where there were only
21:52like 120 inhabitants and there we were
21:55greeted by a local guide who then took
21:58us on a foraging trip where we would
22:00pick nettles and learn about local herbs
22:02and then we would cook pizzas u uh with
22:06these nettles. And I think here the
22:08first point is it's very interesting
22:09that we would just um not be consuming a
22:13lot of the traditional meattheavy uh
22:16type of food from the place but also
22:19actively participate in creating a food
22:21based on a global model of the pizza uh
22:23but also showing that you could actually
22:25pick up a lot of local herbs. And then
22:27in the afternoon we actually had to work
22:30to get our hot chocolate afterwards
22:32because in the local environment there
22:34was a need for uh physical labor to
22:36develop the um the potato fields. Very
22:40few vegetable you could grow in this uh
22:42part of the world but but potatoes was
22:45one of them. And in this isolate
22:46community they were actually needing
22:48more work labor than just getting money.
22:51Um so we had to work for 2 hours uh in
22:54the field. Uh and it was quite because
22:57we kind of left a mark quite visibly. We
22:59kind of built up some of the grass field
23:01and made it into a potato field. And at
23:03the same time there was a different type
23:05of exchange going on there where we
23:07could not just come as a traditional
23:09passive tourist throwing around with
23:12money and getting demands felt. But we
23:14have to kind of engage ourself
23:16physically uh with the materials and and
23:19and and the work there. And um the the
23:22group actually preferred that experience
23:25to the uh to the other mission star
23:28experience. I thought that was quite
23:30funny. And of course this was in a
23:32school setting. So this maybe this idea
23:33of working is okay and different. But I
23:36just thought it was a funny little
23:37example of how you can actually create
23:39some very uh different kind of
23:42experience. The way you also get away
23:44from this passivity and at the same time
23:46it was a very uh exclusive experience
23:49very unique. Um and also there was a
23:52very strong um relationship to the local
23:55guides who had a lot of time to talk
23:57with anyone just like SA mentioned this
24:00idea with the um with with getting
24:02around and then of course this idea how
24:03can you scale this how can you inspire
24:05this and is will it still be elitist in
24:07some sense I don't I don't know but I
24:09think it's just also and I think this
24:12idea of of putting tourists into
24:15different roles where they also
24:18contribute with more than money uh can
24:21be very uh interesting uh to work with
24:25and to think about.
24:27>> Thanks Jonathan. Yes, you have a
24:28question. How
24:31>> or a comment?
24:31>> It's not ex it's not exactly a question.
24:33It's a comment after reading after
24:35listening to SA and Jonathan. uh around
24:38this idea of exclusivity. Um of course
24:41there will be always exclusivity if the
24:44context if the broader context of an
24:46experience is five stars or being in a
24:48very expensive place and paying for it.
24:52Uh but this perhaps is an exclusivity in
24:57the way we see ourselves as a humans.
25:01The idea of being exclusive in the sense
25:03that other people had have not access to
25:06that. But if we think that of places
25:09that for instance the uh the restaurant
25:12where Jonathan went in which you have to
25:15engage in the farm and work with the
25:17soil or going to a hotel that uh where
25:24really have regenerative practice
25:27ecological practices you can think of
25:30not exclusive but inclusivity in another
25:33way more inclusivity beyond human
25:36exclusivity. inclusivity
25:38in including uh econ uh the ecology
25:42around surrounding including I don't
25:45know the the rivers and the the soil the
25:48animals that
25:50>> so it's a different way of seeing it's
25:53not only exclusivity it's inclusivity
25:56and care as well
25:58>> yeah I I agree with you how and I have a
26:01also an example on my end I remember me
26:03traveling to some places and discover
26:06covering a vanilla farm and just by
26:08having you know an experience in this
26:10van vanilla farm that was like for free.
26:13uh you get to engage, you get to have
26:15something kind of exclusive because
26:17that's the farmer with you explaining
26:19you all these things and giving you all
26:21this um this information about something
26:24truly different and you gain knowledge
26:27from this person and you felt I mean you
26:31can feel uh this emotion of luxury at
26:34that time because it's a luxury to be
26:36there at that time and to learn from
26:38someone else. I mean that's my
26:40perspective on that. Thank you so much.
26:42Um, Elen, can we keep your questions for
26:45later on because we're kind of running a
26:47little bit, but keep it on your side.
26:49Uh, and and we'll we'll do the Q&A at
26:52the end. Um, let's jump to our next
26:55question that is really interesting and
26:57I'd like to learn. I mean, we all like
26:59to learn a little bit more on what
27:01defines alternative luxury um, from
27:05traditional luxury. Is it about the
27:07price? Is it about scarcity? Is it about
27:09craftsmanship? Is it about time?
27:11sustainability, ethics, well-being. What
27:14are your thoughts on that? Um, we can
27:17start maybe with uh with
27:24>> I think I kind of responded partially to
27:26the question previously.
27:28>> Um, I guess I just briefly to to to
27:31restate it. Uh, so I think before luxury
27:33was more about conspicuousness, con
27:36being conspicuous, showing off and
27:38showing it. I think now it's more
27:40inconspicuous. So it's about being and
27:43you what you said again like Maxim even
27:45going back to your experience it wasn't
27:47that you I mean before was not
27:50traditionally associated with luxury
27:51it's quite opposite it's blue color hard
27:53work it's not luxury but I think
27:55probably what was important for you is
27:57having this contact with a person that
27:59you felt more was authentic right
28:02contact setting and everything so it
28:04goes again from being conspicuous to
28:07more inconspicuous from being product
28:10based Again, when we talk about hotels,
28:12it was all about, I don't know, flowers
28:14arrangement, gold, and even go to
28:17palaces in in Paris, you see that in
28:19Switzerland, right? And going to
28:21experiences. So, for example, places
28:23I've stayed in Costa Rica, I it's nice,
28:26very nice facilities, but not about
28:30opulence, but they but you have your own
28:32guide. You cannot see a life live life
28:36uh wildlife by yourself but you have
28:38personal guide to go with you on
28:40oneonone this there is no groups they
28:43will give you personal tour of a
28:44wildlife reserve you will have a
28:46personal farm visit just like you said
28:48Maxi it was extremely personalized so
28:51it's about experience and they're very
28:53careful about hiring people who can be
28:55put in a position to a guest so when you
28:58look at the property from outside it
29:00doesn't look anything luxury but when
29:02you actually leave through experience it
29:04does
29:05>> and I think another aspect it's also
29:07went from offline being focusing more
29:11again about what hotel is to actually
29:14the story and narrative they're trying
29:16to deliver so it's about not being again
29:19not product based it's not about showy
29:21but it's about which kind of identity
29:24you as a client can have while staying
29:26in my place and this experience that I
29:29lived uh in uh Costa Rica the owner it's
29:32exactly what was his vision he actually
29:34trying to create community of
29:36like-minded individuals of course people
29:39who are very well off and I met people
29:41who actually stay a months they actually
29:43leave their job from us and stay in this
29:46luxury property for entire months
29:48because they felt like this is in uh in
29:51line with a it's actually what she told
29:53me I had a dinner with this lady and she
29:55told me it's not because simply she she
29:58it's in line with her values it's
29:59because she feels she should support
30:01this business because this business
30:03provides like jobs many many things and
30:05they're very open about communicating
30:07this um yeah I'll stop there there is
30:10another point I wanted to make but
30:11probably better to be made later
30:14>> thank you thank you so much Raul or
30:17Jonathan
30:20anything else to
30:21>> yeah I can I can add a little bit I
30:23think also uh yeah what you also
30:26mentioned time I think that's something
30:28that a lot of
30:29>> yeah contemporary consumers
30:32are are lacking. It's you could almost
30:34consider it a kind of currency where
30:37people are are kind of you know lacking
30:42uh or having
30:44uh yeah having not enough uh time on
30:48their account so to speak where you
30:50actually would pro giving them time and
30:54ease and and all that kind of thing. in
30:57um and that does not necessarily have to
31:01be on a five-star hotel, but just taking
31:03people out on out of of of the um of
31:09their highpaced uh everyday lifestyle.
31:13um slowing down. Um maybe also getting a
31:18lot of all the noise that you have in in
31:21contemporary life away, all the digital
31:24stuff and and everything around that. Um
31:27and maybe um get the body activated in
31:30in different ways where you kind of uh
31:33slow down also maybe do uh very simple
31:37things. Uh that can be also very very
31:40good for you. So I think that could also
31:42be a way of of thinking about how to
31:44provide time and maybe not kind of
31:48maximize you have to do this and this
31:50and this as a bucket list kind of
31:52tourism experience where you have to
31:54visit all the highlights of a capital in
31:56a in a few uh hours or a few days. uh
32:01but rather really yeah focusing on on
32:03few simple things and and uh taking the
32:07time to uh doing that probably and maybe
32:09just also getting outside of uh of of a
32:14space uh that you usually live in.
32:18>> Maxim could you repeat the question? I
32:21have some thoughts but I would like to
32:22address the question.
32:23>> Yeah. The questions was the definition
32:26of alternative luxury. what what
32:28distinguishes um alternative luxury from
32:31traditional luxury that was the base of
32:34>> question I don't think there is a matter
32:35of authenticity there
32:38>> in the sense not authenticity related to
32:41an object of a product I mean it's what
32:44we think is the connection to a history
32:47to a past or something
32:50uh is more authenticity in first in the
32:53producer of the producer and also
32:55authenticity of the consumer
32:57I think for instance of uh Michelon star
33:02restaurants
33:03in comparison to the restaurants listed
33:07in the world's 50 best list. Mhm.
33:11>> So if you think of the Michelin
33:13restaurants, star restaurants, they are
33:16like very classy, very luxury oriented
33:20in the old way, very specific patterns
33:24created by French gastronomy,
33:27very like yeah like a structure you have
33:31to repeat. Excel is very constrained
33:35word. But little by little there were
33:38this list that became a bit more
33:41important in recent years. The world 50
33:44best list which actually uh praises
33:49something different, something that is
33:51like more experiential, more open that
33:54includes knowledge and techniques from
33:56other countries. Uh is uh more casual as
34:00well, but the restaurants are still
34:03expensive. So the thing is that the
34:07there is a and and they include a lot
34:10more of this uh new values lifestyle
34:12values ecological values more like uh
34:16it's it focuses more on what the
34:19consumer the modern consumer wants to
34:22experience rather than the idea of the
34:25chef. It's more like connected is the
34:26conversation between the chef and the
34:30and the consumers. And this has opened
34:32it up. I mean this idea of uh luxury in
34:35the restaurant war has c this has
34:38brought more more ideas which do not
34:41mean that they are less exclusive but it
34:44has created more uh I think a different
34:49dynamic which I think is
34:52beneficial because it's more open. Uh I
34:56also think that uh alternative luxury
35:03it's about extracting value is about the
35:06consumer extracting value of experience
35:08and things. For instance, I
35:12I think of people that go to vintage
35:14shops, not clothing, vintage shops or uh
35:18find uh clothes from vintage
35:23and you have access to brands and to
35:27yeah to creations that could be very
35:30expensive in a different setting, right?
35:34However, you can find this these objects
35:38products for for very reasonable prices
35:40now. And there are luxury products,
35:44their craft, the the products that have
35:48been created by skilled people and they
35:52really took time to be done. But the
35:55price is not there anymore.
35:57It becomes kind of cheap sometimes.
36:00But the people extract the value of this
36:03craft and appropriate it themselves. So
36:05it's another kind of authenticity.
36:07It's a knowledge the knowledge
36:10knowledge level consumer the person who
36:13knows the consensious consumer
36:16takes these objects extract the value
36:18the craft of the value make for
36:19themselves. It's a it's a very
36:22interesting move. I think that also
36:23brings into question this idea of
36:25luxury. What luxury is uses luxury? And
36:29to end with this I would like to uh go
36:32back to the time aspect mentioned by
36:36Jonathan which I think is very very
36:38crucial in uh in this conversation.
36:42uh slowing down is something that uh is
36:47is very meaningful for humans but
36:51but uh paradoxically
36:54we don't have the time we cannot access
36:57to that experience of slowing down even
37:00people in privileged positions or
37:02relative privileged position like us do
37:04not have this
37:07time anymore or much more you know
37:10complaining people
37:13Now the majority of people are in worse
37:15uh situations but yeah and uh for
37:19instance uh a luxury
37:23a modern luxury is to walk to your
37:26office for instance
37:27>> comparing the transportation time um is
37:32a luxury a big luxury I have the yeah
37:35the luxury to
37:37spend I know a 10-minute walk to go to
37:41work and go back to home like yeah so
37:44it's yeah that's yeah that's yeah that's
37:45just ideas to bring a bit of complexity
37:48thank you thank you Jonathan um you have
37:51a comment or a question
37:55>> yeah I I just wanted to add on what what
37:57Raul just said I think it's it's very
37:59it's a very good point and I think a way
38:01of thinking about this also with these
38:04new restaurants that came up um I've
38:06written about some of of these new type
38:09of restaurants also that are to a
38:11certain extent expensive but maybe not
38:13as expensive as as some of the others um
38:16old Michelin stuff but I think a way of
38:18thinking about it is that you would see
38:19a lot of the old luxury would be kind of
38:22focused either on the consumer's needs
38:26so the consumer is always right you can
38:28go into a wonderful restaurant you're
38:30going to ask for whatever you want um
38:33which is not a very kind of sustainable
38:36way because then you have to have a
38:37fixed menu when you have to sort of the
38:39ingredients all year round and all these
38:42kind of things. Or you can have a chef
38:44ccentric model where you really go to
38:47this restaurant because this chef is
38:49super super uh uh exciting and have
38:51these signature dishes that are also
38:53served all year round. uh sometimes um
38:57that are not necessarily very and then
38:59you can have we we've I have uh done
39:01some essays on on articles on
39:04restaurants that are more kind of of
39:06system ccentric which means that they
39:10are actually their starting point is the
39:12agricultural produce available at that
39:15specific time of year for instance by
39:18the local agriculture. So it's more like
39:20a a focus on the system and maybe there
39:22is you have a a a producer who have a
39:26surplus of certain ingredients and all
39:28though you usually do not have that on
39:30the menu. You then put that on the menu
39:32so you can use up that and avoid food
39:34waste or you really start every week. I
39:36have a a Norwegian restaurant that
39:38starts every week with the box of
39:40vegetable they get from the local
39:42producer and then they sign the menu
39:45after that. And that's a very different
39:48uh way of of approaching luxury I think
39:51where you either see like the the needs
39:53of the customer or kind of the ego of
39:56the chef or you actually see and put
39:59that at the center one of those or you
40:01put uh then the system uh instead at the
40:04center of uh the the the experience you
40:08want to create.
40:10>> Thank you Jonathan Zena.
40:13>> Yes. I wanted to actually what just
40:15Jonathan has just mentioned that's the
40:16experience I had when I was in Costa
40:18Rica. I and it was a research project.
40:21So we actually interviewed uh the
40:23managers people who work in the
40:25restaurants and they their big part is
40:28seasonal fish. So uh so the servers told
40:32me that uh well we have sometimes we
40:34have guests and they say lobster or they
40:37have tuna but it's not a season of the
40:38tuna. So we are not have we are not
40:40going to have tuna. So I asked them so
40:42what how do you deal with that so you
40:44have guests who you are supposed to
40:45satisfy whatever they want and here you
40:47cannot satisfy and they said uh yes we
40:50do have sometimes guests who are upset
40:52but then we just think this is a mistake
40:54they're not our target market they just
40:55happen to be here so for them it's not
40:58issue I absolutely agree with that so
41:00it's it's not contradictory to satisfy
41:02the target market right to make guess is
41:04always right and making guest happy but
41:07we have to have a match between your
41:09product and it's a very systemcentric
41:11and guests. So they guests are those who
41:13understand. They have a brand community.
41:15People who know this brand only stay in
41:18this brand and they have collection of
41:19different locations throughout Central
41:21America. And I said yes it happens. We
41:23have such failure. And when I looked at
41:25the reviews, I can see some of these
41:27reviews. What kind of restaurant is
41:29that? I went there to eat and they don't
41:30have tuna when I want. Everywhere you
41:33can have tuna in this place. What is
41:35that? And they simply say the in their
41:37comments they explain in a response
41:40manager explains this is a concept we
41:42are very sorry that you didn't enjoy and
41:44you didn't understand the concept but
41:45I'm sure you can have a good time in
41:47other places in our establishment. So
41:49they just make nice they're very nice
41:51about it and they just they just say
41:53it's not our guest and that's all.
41:56>> Yeah. I I think we can truly see with
41:58what you've seen, what we've we've heard
42:01with Zena, Jonathan, and Raul that food,
42:04nature, local communities, and all these
42:06experiences, they shape uh alternative
42:10uh luxury and hospitality and and has
42:13shifted um and it leads us to our last
42:17part of of the discussion before we open
42:20the Q&A on studying the phenomenon. I
42:23mean um Zena Raul Jonathan have you
42:28already studied alternative luxury? How
42:30shall we study alternative luxury? Um I
42:34mean I think it it's now
42:37um it's now part of of our life. It's
42:40here. So how shall we as researcher to
42:44to study that?
42:49>> Well I can start. Oh go ahead.
42:53uh uh for instance um I do think that
42:57it's important to
42:59to explore again what craft means
43:03I think there's a a very important
43:06concept to for this kind of discussion
43:09the craft which involves the time spent
43:11the knowledge spent on making an object
43:14the uh relationship of this object with
43:18the envir the surrounding environment
43:22I think this is also crucial. Uh and
43:26also I do think that uh the degrowth
43:30conversations are also interesting
43:33because uh yeah it leads to different
43:37way of consumption a bit more moderate
43:40but it also include the class
43:42perspective that we shouldn't forget. A
43:45lot of consumptions are are
43:47differentiated by our access to money,
43:50access to resources, access of to
43:53knowledge as well. So yeah, I think that
43:57the growth is interesting because
44:00sometimes
44:02and and there's a blind spot I think in
44:04the growth the growth conversation class
44:07and the growth and I think this is a
44:10interesting perhaps way to
44:14interesting entry together with craft.
44:17>> Thank you. Thank you so much Zena.
44:21Well, I think the two questions. I think
44:23the most interesting part is not
44:25actually how I'm studying it. I do I
44:27study with my colleague Henry Cocon. We
44:30are studying ethical uh ethically
44:32meaningful luxury. So um but that's not
44:35what I actually wanted to talk about
44:37today actually inspired me uh from to
44:39look at it from a different perspective
44:41from perspective of a critical studies
44:43of a critical luxury and I have just
44:46this is actually something Jonathan
44:47mentioned and Roi also mentioned before
44:50and there there is a a conversation but
44:52it's very much outside of management
44:54field or hospitality field maybe more
44:56within sociological field and social
44:59sciences field which I'm not here
45:01pretend to be an expert but there is
45:03concept of critical luxury about how do
45:05we balance necessity exclusivity with
45:08morality and this is something also
45:10Jonathan mentioned if you talk about
45:12regenerative experiences ethical
45:14experiences experiences ethical for whom
45:17only for selected few only for those
45:20ultra luxury is it a just perspective on
45:22that because so far what we I I'm seeing
45:24in hospitality field is this but is it
45:27really just is it actual alternative
45:32>> thank
45:34Thank you. And
45:35>> I agree absolutely with with what has
45:37been said already and I think this whole
45:40class and alternative economies are
45:43extremely interesting and also to see at
45:45it um simultaneously a different
45:48perspective when you try to change these
45:50things what does it change in the the
45:53experience. Um so for instance also this
45:58example great example with fish that
46:00that Sen also had was uh was very good
46:03because it also demands that you kind of
46:06educate your consumers uh that you
46:09cannot just like serve them but you also
46:12have to kind of educate them in a
46:13certain way and how do you balance that
46:15and then there's also all what what Raul
46:17means about what are the consequences
46:19the whole idea of the economy around it
46:21that are very very important and and one
46:24of The things I'm very interested about
46:26Mary is I think there is a gap in in our
46:28understanding of what pledge pleasure
46:31actually is and I think there's been a
46:32kind of um I don't know maybe a little
46:36seeing it as something uh superfluous or
46:39superficial or not very important but I
46:42think it's important to both recognize
46:45that pleasure is important and we have
46:48to take it seriously and it's an
46:50embodied experience and all these kind
46:51of things. At the same time it's a very
46:54social experience defined by social norm
46:56codes hierarchies all these kind of
46:58things and how can we rethink pleasure
47:02in in in a way and how what is pleasure
47:05for different types of consumer groups
47:08for uh different types of experiences
47:10and all of that but I really think we
47:12need a more a different more grounded uh
47:16understanding of that basic question of
47:19what is pleasure and what can it
47:24Thank you, Jonathan.
47:28>> Yeah, you have a point.
47:30>> No, just say that's a good point.
47:32>> Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Thank you so
47:34much for all these inputs. I mean, um
47:37we've covered a lot of the ground. It's
47:39already 10:50. Um I I didn't see the
47:42time uh going on and and thank you very
47:45much for all these insightful um uh
47:49comments on alternative luxury. I'd like
47:52now to open the floor to you. Um maybe
47:55uh Elen, you have a questions. Maybe we
47:57have other people with with some
47:59questions. You can raise your hands or
48:02type them in the chat and we'll take few
48:04minutes to answer them. Thank you.
48:07Yeah, thanks um Maxim for um uh giving
48:11me the opportunity and thank you to to
48:13our three speakers. Um I I work at the
48:16institute just so as you you you know
48:18what I do but um I was struck by um
48:22something that really struck me two
48:23things actually that struck me in in in
48:25all of your um presentations is that
48:27luxury has become um
48:31synonymous with a quest for meaning in
48:32fact and so meaning of and by itself
48:35seems to be the luxury. Um, I I don't
48:37know if that's a very positive comment
48:39on on modern contemporary society and
48:42that we're in in such a such a a need
48:45for meaning or such a lack of meaning
48:48that we have to comment on it. But it's
48:50I think it's a sociology question like
48:52you were saying I think you know we're
48:54we're moving out perhaps of of of our
48:57comfort zone. But I thought that was
48:58extremely interesting. Um and um the
49:02second thing was because I come from a
49:04hospitality uh concern and from a
49:07hotelier's perspective fortunately or
49:10unfortunately um uh the delivery of what
49:14hotelers do is still very much about
49:17resources and the resources necessary
49:20for the individualized uh experiences or
49:23the one-to-one experiences and so on.
49:26even the foraging experience uh that you
49:29spoke about Jonathan. I'm Irish and so
49:30foraging is a part of something that we
49:32do sort of offer in the tourism industry
49:35in Ireland. Um that does require um
49:39significant resources for hotel years
49:41and so there is perhaps a reflection to
49:45have around that particular business
49:47model uh in terms of how resources can
49:49be mobilized perhaps not in an expensive
49:52way but in a way that channels into
49:54meaning. It's it's comments rather than
49:56questions. But thank you. Extremely
49:58interesting discussion today.
50:01>> Yeah, Helen, it's exactly the question.
50:03How do we actually scale up regenerative
50:05and meaningful experiences? There are
50:08some midscale lifestyle brands like an
50:10Aquarian we know many many of them like
50:13Manas and others they're trying to do
50:16but they don't pretend to be
50:17regenerative or sustainable. They're
50:18just saying we are meaningful luxury or
50:20we meaning not luxury. They're just
50:22meaningful experiences, lifestyle
50:23experiences. But that's a very big uh
50:26question right now in industry
50:27especially among these people who trying
50:28to be regenerative. Exactly. Is it even
50:31possible? That's also a question.
50:34>> Yeah,
50:34>> I think it must be.
50:37>> Yeah, I think I think it must be
50:38possible.
50:39>> We're going to have to find a way, I
50:41guess. Yeah,
50:45>> we have any other comments? Any other
50:47questions?
50:50Go for it. It's the time.
50:57All right. Um maybe
51:00um Jonathan, do you have a last comment
51:02or something you'd like to point out
51:04before we end this session?
51:08>> Yeah, maybe on this on the meaning
51:13dimension.
51:15Uh yeah, of course. I do think that
51:18people also
51:20accumulate material stuff for meaningful
51:24reasons.
51:26So what
51:29really new brings this alternative
51:33luxury
51:35uh concept? Well, I do think that is the
51:40only difference is that is a bit beyond
51:43materiality. materiality is still there.
51:46It still plays a role but uh I think the
51:49experiential part is more important. The
51:52experiential
51:54uh there is a concept that uh Jonathan
51:59explained is the embodiment and I think
52:02that this is this makes the difference
52:04how we relate to things, how we connect
52:06with things physically and sometimes
52:08viscerally. This is something that uh
52:10perhaps is the what distinguishes
52:13uh luxury consumption from this
52:17alternative luxury consumption. That's
52:19it.
52:22>> Thanks. How I have a question on that
52:24and that's a a real true questions.
52:27That's the duality on on my side in
52:29luxury. When when we talk about luxury,
52:32I have this duality between materiality
52:34and experiences. Um why still in I mean
52:39as consumers today um I I mean why
52:42materiality still matter to me? I mean
52:44for example I'm wearing this nice watch
52:47today. I love watches. Um, and and this
52:50is for me something that I want to buy
52:52that I'm gonna I'm gonna go for it
52:55instead of living a true experience that
52:58is maybe better for everyone but still
53:02materiality for human beings still
53:05matters. Why those people, you know, are
53:07so attached to things?
53:11>> Well, there is a it's a branding
53:13question, Maxim, and that's what I teach
53:14students in a branding class as well,
53:16right? So there's a lot of research and
53:18also even narrow marketing how the one
53:20perspective I mean if you want to go
53:22there it's basically what people say is
53:25um researchers say right in marketing
53:26branding specifically is that we have a
53:28break broke our social traditional
53:31structure broken down we no longer
53:33relate to church or to communities we
53:35move around the world I live in a
53:37different part of the world we don't
53:38have connection to our families so our
53:41connection relation to brands is kind of
53:43surrogate for that connections and We
53:46all different. We have different system
53:47of meaning, different culture, different
53:49things that we find meaningful. So the
53:51point of branding is to connect a very
53:53much tangible product because I'm sure
53:56you don't have a regular watch. You have
53:57a watch with a certain brand that you
53:59actually like. It's not just a brand
54:01watch you found somewhere in the street.
54:02It's not be you don't have a watch
54:04because it's a watch. You have a watch
54:05because it has a certain brand and
54:07certain design because it allows you to
54:09express yourself, express your meaning.
54:11And that whatever meaning you have is
54:13different, right? Rolex means something
54:14different from Omega. It's a different
54:16meaning and signal to the world in which
54:19way you want to be perceived and relate
54:21to the world. Uh there was a very
54:23interesting study done about Samsung
54:25users and iPhone users not related to
54:28hospitality and they actually uh put
54:30people in an MRI machine and they asked
54:34they they told they basically showed
54:37people who had iPhone the iPhone brand
54:40and people who had Samsung Samsung brand
54:42and they looked at their uh brand
54:44activation and then they did something
54:45different. They actually showed people
54:48who have iPhone articles that attacked
54:50their brand and then they showed their
54:53people to Samsung attack their brand and
54:55I don't remember the old details of the
54:56methodology but what they found that
54:58people who uh claim to be Apple users
55:02they really love brands so much that
55:03when they show them anything bad saying
55:06about a brand their brand activity they
55:07feel sad they have emotional response.
55:10Samsung users do not. However, Samsung
55:14users felt bad felt good when it was
55:18they showed them articles that felt bad.
55:20They showed bad things about Apple. So
55:22the conclusion was people who love
55:25Apple, they do they choose Apple because
55:26they love Apple. People who choose
55:28Samsung because they hate Apple, not
55:30because they love Samsung. So it's all
55:33of this a lot of connection. It's about
55:34how brands make people feel. So the goal
55:37of marketing and branding really it's
55:39how do we put a tangible product watch
55:42and embed it into a consumer's meaning
55:44system right and if you've managed so
55:46successfully we have become we have an
55:48iconic brand and if you don't we have a
55:51failure and that's basically the art of
55:53marketing or branding specifically yeah
55:56>> but can I
55:59I think there is also that that objects
56:02I mean there are different types of
56:03object that also meaningful to people.
56:06Um, and I think brands, of course, is
56:08one branch, but I, for instance, um, I'm
56:11I'm a little bit of the nostalgic type.
56:13Um, I I have, uh, my family had a summer
56:17house for many years. Actually, for my
56:19whole life. I went there in Scain in the
56:21northern part of Denmark on the seaside.
56:24Very, very nice place. Um, and then we
56:27had to sell it a couple of years ago.
56:29And all that was my aunt's house. She
56:30didn't have any kids, but she had a lot
56:32of strange objects in that house. And
56:34now it's sold and the whole house is
56:37redecorated in the interior and and I I
56:40find a lot of meaning in the small
56:42objects I took with me from the house
56:43and I kind of inherited. Uh but they of
56:46course I mean a lot of people would
56:48maybe classify them as kit or ugly. I
56:50don't know. But it to me they hold a lot
56:52of meaning and materiality and also a
56:55way of getting back into that experience
56:57of a house that I have experienced from
56:59I was a baby um through a home my whole
57:03life and bring me back to that space and
57:05I think that's also um so I think there
57:08are also different ways of attaching to
57:10to object and some are very should we
57:12say codified socially and some are very
57:15personal intimate um and and also uh
57:19holds meaning in that sense.
57:24>> Yeah,
57:28we can't hear you.
57:29>> Just just an anecdote related to the
57:32watch thing. Uh it comes from a a famous
57:36Argentinian writer Julia Cortazar who is
57:40in a in a short story and he says when
57:44someone gives you a watch you do not own
57:48the watch. This is the watch that owns
57:51you.
57:55>> Maxim by which watch are you own? Maxim
57:58>> a lot of watches. That's a problem.
58:01>> But see, I like how we have different
58:02perspective like see John's and my like
58:04very much branding kind of perspective.
58:06I like that.
58:08>> Yeah. Thank you so much. I mean there's
58:11there's a world to talk about. Um and it
58:13was uh it was really really insightful.
58:16I hope that you all enjoyed this first
58:18round table of the Aliance network for
58:202026. We'll we'll have some more uh in
58:23in September, October, November,
58:25December. So hope to see you again
58:27joining this this research round table.
58:30This will be available on the internet
58:32uh website of the alian. um we'll be
58:36sharing a link with the participants and
58:38with um the the network as well by email
58:42um for the ones who has been there and
58:44for the one who uh who couldn't be there
58:46today. So thank you so much again for
58:49joining. Thank you Raul, thank you Zena,
58:51thank you Jonathan for this rich
58:53discussions. Um
58:55>> thank you for thank you.
59:00Byebye. Bye bye.

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