YT YouTube2Text

YouTube2Text → Transcripts → Robert Greene: How To Seduce Anyone, Build Confidence & Become Powerful | E232

Robert Greene: How To Seduce Anyone, Build Confidence & Become Powerful | E232 — Transcript

by The Diary Of A CEO · 20,721 words · 3,260 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

Open in transcriber Summarize with AI Download SRT/VTT

Full transcript

0:00Some of the greatest seducers were not
0:01good-looking at all. What are the
0:03qualities of a great seducer? I'm
0:07revealing stuff I shouldn't be
0:08revealing. Robert Greene is one of the
0:10best-selling authors in history.
0:11An internationally renowned expert on
0:14power strategies.
0:15Been referenced in songs by Jay-Z, Kanye
0:17West, and Drake.
0:18Written six international best-sellers
0:20that have become legendary. Why did you
0:22write a book about seduction? Seduction
0:24is a high form of power. People will do
0:27what you want without ever even
0:29realizing. Seduction is a mating ritual.
0:32You can't just swipe and get it. But,
0:34because of all the dating apps, if you
0:36are able to understand the language of
0:38seduction, you're going to have so much
0:40more power and success than anybody
0:42else. One thing about words is people
0:44can lie, but body language it doesn't
0:45lie. You master that language, you can
0:47start deciphering all this
0:49People are giving you. It's about
0:51psychology, and it's about how you carry
0:53yourself. If you feel confident, it will
0:55naturally radiate through your gestures.
0:57But, what is real confidence, and how
0:58does one build it? Confidence comes from
1:02We've talked about the topic of powers.
1:04But, in 2018, you had a stroke.
1:06In that moment, it sounds like your
1:08power had been taken from you. The left
1:10side of my body is paralyzed, and that
1:12was not easy. I've got to find a
1:14strategy to deal with all this
1:16Please understand that the ability that
1:18you have now to run, to walk, to type,
1:20it can be taken away from you. It's
1:22miserable. Please don't take it for
1:24granted.
1:30Before we get into this episode, just
1:32wanted to say thank you first and
1:33foremost for being part of this
1:34community. Um the team here at The Diary
1:37Of A CEO is now almost 30 people, and
1:39that's literally because you watch and
1:41you subscribe, and you um leave
1:43comments, and you like the videos, that
1:44that this show has been able to grow.
1:46And it's the greatest honor of my life
1:47to sit here with these incredible people
1:49and just selfishly ask them questions
1:51that I'm pondering over or worrying
1:53about in my life. But, this is just the
1:55beginning for The Diary Of A CEO. We've
1:56got big, big plans to scale this show um
1:58to every corner of the world and to to
2:00to diversify our guest selection. And
2:03that's enabled by you, by simple thing
2:05that you guys do, which is to watch. So,
2:08if there's one thing you could do to
2:09help this show and to help us continue
2:11to do what we do, it's just to hit the
2:12subscribe button. If you like this show,
2:14if you like what we do here, if you
2:15watch these episodes,
2:17please just hit that subscribe button.
2:18Means the world.
2:20Let's get on with it.
2:28What do I need to know about you and
2:30your your earliest years to
2:32to understand the life that you went on,
2:34that journey you went on, and the person
2:36you came to be? Well, uh I grew up here
2:38in Los Angeles, not far from where we
2:40are, in in a neighborhood called Baldwin
2:43Hills, and then we moved to another
2:44neighborhood.
2:46Had a very nice childhood, very
2:47middle-class family.
2:49My father was a salesman his whole life,
2:52worked for the same company for 40
2:53years.
2:55Just sold chemical supplies.
2:57Um and you know, my parents kind of left
3:01me alone a lot. I was basically my
3:03sister almost kind of raised me in a way
3:05and
3:06and I you know, I had a very nice
3:08childhood, kind of left alone, sort of
3:11an introvert.
3:12Books kind of shaped me. I became an
3:14avid reader in early age.
3:17No knew I wanted to be a writer.
3:19Got heavily into drugs, I'm afraid, in
3:21high school because that's that was the
3:24time in the where I went to school and
3:26in college.
3:27Had some great experiences. I look very
3:29fondly back even on my drug experiences,
3:31even though they got kind of depressing
3:33after a while.
3:35But it kind of shaped me in in some
3:37ways.
3:38And you know, that was that was me
3:40growing up, you know? And if And I had a
3:42an attitude or a
3:44a lens in which I looked at people from
3:46a distance. Like I was always sort of
3:47obsessed
3:49with
3:50people wore masks and the way I looked
3:53at it, even when I looked at my my
3:54parents and their friends and I said,
3:56"What is really going on behind there
3:59the masks that they wear and all the
4:00social niceties going on?
4:03What is behind what is really the human
4:06animal like?" And so,
4:08these are kind of the themes that's that
4:10that were make big part of my me growing
4:13up.
4:14From what I read, you had
4:16a lot of different jobs and a lot of
4:17different industries up until the point
4:19when you wrote um the first of your many
4:22books called The 48 Laws of Power back
4:24in 1998.
4:26And I was looking at all of these
4:27different jobs you'd had and they all
4:28seemed to be completely different from
4:29one another. So, then trying to
4:32understand how you arrived at a moment
4:33where you then wrote a book on the topic
4:36and subject matter of power
4:38um having not been, you know, uh
4:40psychology graduate
4:42or
4:43seemingly worked in any industry related
4:45to like human psychology seemed to be
4:47really peculiar to me.
4:50Yeah, and also I never really had a lot
4:53of power up until that point. So, it
4:54wasn't like I knew everything about
4:56being a leader or anything.
4:59Um you know, a lot of things that happen
5:00in life are kind of
5:02by coincidence or serendipitous. You
5:04don't necessarily plan on it, which is
5:06sort of when you look back on it, you
5:08can see a kind of an odd plan going on,
5:11like a destiny or fate, but in the
5:13moment I didn't feel that.
5:15Um I had all of these different jobs as
5:17you mentioned some of them completely
5:19unrelated. You know, I worked in
5:20construction, I had a construction job,
5:23I worked in a detective agency, I was a
5:25tour guide, I helped write an
5:27encyclopedia,
5:28I taught English in Spain, you know, on
5:31and on and on and on and on.
5:33But I I was searching I wanted to be a
5:36writer and a writer needs experiences.
5:39I just was hungry for weird experiences.
5:42You know, I never really stuck at any
5:44one job and by the time you're 37, 38
5:47you know, my parents are starting to
5:49worry about me. I'm starting to worry
5:50about me. I'm getting a little bit
5:51depressed. Even have moments where
5:53suicidal thoughts are floating in my
5:55brain like I'm very ambitious. I know I
5:57could do something well, but it's never
5:59come together.
6:01And so here's the serendipity part. I'm
6:03in Italy for a job, one of my 80
6:05different jobs, and I meet a man who's a
6:08book packager there
6:10on this particular job we're on.
6:13And he's he's a Dutchman. I'm not going
6:14to imitate him, but he asked me if I had
6:17any ideas for a book.
6:19And suddenly
6:21all of the painful experiences in my
6:23life working in Hollywood, all the
6:25I've worked for, all these
6:27weird politicking, all the manipulative
6:29games, all the crap that I had seen, it
6:32just came like almost vomiting out of me
6:35and I said, you know,
6:36here we are 20 What was 1990s, in 20th
6:39century back then. Here we are in the
6:41late 20th century
6:43and people don't dress like they did in
6:46the days of Machiavelli, right? They
6:48don't wear wigs and stuff, but it's the
6:50same damn thing. It's the same bloody
6:52battles going on, the same
6:54manipulations, the same kind of, you
6:56know, people all don't reveal who they
6:58are.
6:59And it's a timeless game of power, just
7:02the same as Louis the 14th or Cesare
7:04Borgia or the people, the CEOs in the
7:08late 20th century. So this this timeless
7:11thing and I as I'm telling him this, his
7:13eyes are lighting up. He says, "Wow,
7:15this could be this could really be a
7:16book."
7:17And you know,
7:19he said, "Look, Robert, I'll pay you to
7:21live
7:22while you write half the book and then
7:23we'll sell it."
7:25And as I told you before, I was
7:27desperate. It was my get rich or die
7:29trying moment. I went back to Los
7:32Angeles. I borrowed money from my
7:33parents cuz I was that poor.
7:36And I wrote a treatment and he loved it
7:38and then the rest is history. That's
7:39sort of
7:40my long-winded answer to your question.
7:43That's so interesting. It's crazy how in
7:45life
7:46things can just take such a
7:49turn
7:50out of nothing. And you never know what
7:52that thing is going to be. And I mean,
7:55you say the rest is history there. Give
7:56me an idea of the success of that book,
7:59The 48 Laws of Power, because I mean,
8:01I've seen it everywhere for for as long
8:03as I've been looking at books. So, I I
8:05what's the Give me some quantify the
8:07global success of that book.
8:09Quantify? Yeah.
8:11Well, here in the US, it's it's sold
8:14quite a bit over 2 million copies, which
8:16is great. The weird thing is, it's
8:19selling now more than it ever has sold
8:21before. In other words, the the
8:23percentage of books that were selling
8:25here in 2023 is greater than any period
8:28before. So, it's accelerating.
8:31Which is insane, you know? And even my
8:33English publisher's having the same uh
8:35is telling me the same stuff.
8:38So, it's kind of accumulated it. It
8:40started off a little bit slowly. I mean,
8:42we got press, but it became this kind of
8:44cult thing. I've had very little um
8:47publicity in mainstream media, which was
8:49big back then. It's not big anymore,
8:51thank God. But, um
8:54it was a word of mouth. It's like, "Have
8:56you heard about this book? It's kind of
8:58dark and blah blah blah blah blah."
8:59It got on a few television shows. There
9:01was this show, a reality show with
9:03boxers. I think it was called The
9:05Contender,
9:06in which the finalist held up a copy of
9:09the book and said this book helped me
9:10get to where I am now. And it sold like
9:13crazy. It got into the hip-hop stream,
9:16you know? Jay-Z was the first person I
9:18ever saw quoting the book in in in
9:20print, in in Playboy interview. And
9:23then, you know, 50 Cent and all that and
9:25Drake and all these people. That really
9:27kind of set it into the stratosphere.
9:29So, it's it's slowly become a bigger and
9:32bigger thing. And um
9:35I had no idea, you know? I thought it
9:37was a weird book and it could be
9:39successful, but I had no idea the
9:40journey I was about to begin. It's
9:43it's it's weird.
9:45That journey of writing this book, has
9:46your
9:47have your feelings towards the book
9:49evolved or changed over time? Because
9:52society moves on, you move on as an
9:53individual as a human, you learn new
9:55things, you mature, and then the book is
9:57kind of held in time.
9:59Not really.
10:01Um I I my philosophy in life is is never
10:03look back, regret nothing. You know,
10:06it's it's there, I did it. It came in a
10:09particular moment in my life and in and
10:11in the zeitgeist, and things have
10:13changed a little bit.
10:16But I was it was a very serious effort
10:18to to try and get at something timeless.
10:21Now, yes, there's a dark side to it and
10:23maybe I've moved on from that. And I did
10:26honestly, when I wrote my fourth book,
10:28Mastery,
10:29I was a little bit concerned that young
10:31people were getting
10:34to were thinking that the whole game of
10:36life is about politics, manipulation.
10:38So, I wrote a book to kind of
10:41counter that.
10:43But I I I think the book is is true and
10:45it's held up. I think
10:48if I look at business, what's going on
10:50in the business world,
10:51I kind of got
10:53I think I hit it on the nail about what
10:55goes on in the dynamics and the power
10:56game.
10:58You know, I wrote a book on human nature
11:00and the idea is we were formed hundreds
11:03of thousands of years still in
11:05particular circumstances, our brains are
11:08wired a certain way.
11:09Yes, we're very sophisticated. Yes, we
11:12have the internet. Yes, I'm here being
11:13interviewed by you on a podcast. It's
11:16pretty insane. But we haven't
11:18fundamentally changed. The same raw
11:21emotions of envy, of aggression, of of
11:25you know, it's worrying about our
11:27status, about having to disguise
11:29ourselves and appear like we're saintly
11:32and loving that we don't have a shadow
11:34which we all have.
11:36None of that has changed.
11:37So,
11:38yeah, I wouldn't write that book now
11:40because I'm at a different place in life
11:42and and I understand that, but
11:45I have I don't I'm not ashamed of it in
11:47any way. I stand by it and I think I hit
11:49at something real.
11:50What is in your your definition, what is
11:54power? You know, I was really compelled
11:55when you were talking about the
11:56evolution evolutionary roots of power,
11:58but like at its essence, what is power?
12:01It's not what you think it is. It's not,
12:03you know, Vladimir Putin or presidents
12:06or Biden or all these political figures
12:08and these big games. Power is a feeling.
12:11It's an essence. It's an emotion. It's a
12:13It's a human need and desire.
12:16And really, what power is is a sense of
12:20understanding yourself
12:22and and being able to control yourself.
12:24So, the way I look at it, I like to look
12:26at it not through the lens of great
12:28power politics, but as as an average
12:31everyday human being here in the United
12:33States or in England.
12:35The feeling that you have
12:37with your children, with your spouse,
12:40with your colleagues,
12:43the people who work for you,
12:45the sense that you have no control,
12:48that you can't influence them with your
12:49ideas, that you can't get them to maybe,
12:53you know, soften some of their ugly
12:55behavior if they if they have that, that
12:57you can't get them interested in helping
12:59you with a project or whatever, is the
13:01most miserable feeling a human being can
13:04have.
13:05Malcolm X had a quote that I love, which
13:06is
13:08absolute power corrupts,
13:10but absolute powerlessness corrupts even
13:12more.
13:14I'm I'm butchering it, but that was the
13:16gist of it.
13:17The feeling of powerlessness is actually
13:19more corrupting than the feeling of
13:21having a lot of power.
13:23You It makes It turns people into being
13:26passive-aggressive, into playing all
13:28kinds of weird games, negative games to
13:31get power.
13:33You want to feel that you have a degree
13:35of control over events in your life,
13:37over people,
13:39over your future.
13:40And that to me is what it power is,
13:43right? And so,
13:45some of that involves these games that I
13:48I mentioned in there, and some of it
13:50goes beyond the 48 Laws of Power, which
13:52I've tried to indicate in my other
13:55books.
13:56But it's the sense that I'm not helpless
13:59in this world.
14:00I remember when I first entered the work
14:02world
14:03as a very naive college graduate with
14:06all these ideals and things I'd read,
14:08cuz I was studying literature and
14:10languages.
14:12I'm like, "Man, this is weird. People
14:14are playing all these kind of games. I'm
14:16in over my head." I made mistakes. I got
14:18fired for being, you know, too brash,
14:21for for outshining the master. It was
14:23painful,
14:25right? And so,
14:27learning You don't have to use the Laws
14:29of Power. I don't advocate crushing your
14:31enemy totally. I hope I don't have any
14:34enemies ever that I need to crush ever.
14:37You just need to know these things, so
14:39that when you enter the work world,
14:40you're not naive, you're not stupid, you
14:41don't make the same kind of mistakes
14:43that I made. You spare yourself the
14:45pain. You understand the most
14:46fundamental thing about human nature.
14:49People have egos.
14:52Even your boss has an ego. You think he
14:54He or she doesn't, because they're
14:56powerful. They have They're even more
14:58insecure than other people.
15:00You need to be aware of these things, so
15:02that you don't inadvertently make them
15:04feel insecure and suffer the
15:06consequences.
15:07So, um that's I don't know. That's sort
15:10of my idea of power that I was trying to
15:13describe there. The way you describe it
15:14is more of a sort of intrinsic, um
15:18force,
15:19perception of yourself. When people
15:20think of power, they think of having
15:23control over others or their influence
15:25over others, but you've kind of made it
15:27more of a internal
15:29force. Yeah, well, if you can't control
15:31yourself, then you're in a lot of
15:33trouble in this world, right? Because
15:36when you just naturally are yourself
15:38doing things, you're going to offend
15:39people. You learn early on we're social
15:41animals. I have to tailor my behavior,
15:44you know? If you go on babbling about
15:46all about how you feel and think, etc.,
15:48and you just say what's the first thing
15:50on your mind, you're going to end up
15:51having a very
15:52very short career. You're going to be
15:54saying things that are going to offend
15:55people. You're going to be making a fool
15:57of yourself. You're going to be saying
15:59things that you end up regretting,
16:01right?
16:02So, you have no self-control.
16:04And if you see somebody who has no
16:06self-control,
16:07it makes them it makes you look like
16:09you're not powerful. If you can't
16:11control yourself, how can you control
16:13anything in your environment? How can
16:15you be a leader, right?
16:17So, you have to learn
16:19certain things about about your nature,
16:22about who you are, and and not just just
16:25be anybody. You have to kind of tailor
16:27your appearances as well.
16:29Because for good or for bad, I I'm a
16:32believer in looking at the human animal
16:34without shame and embarrassment, just as
16:37we are, right? And appearances matter.
16:41It's the animal part of our nature.
16:44We we are we look at we look we judge
16:46people by how they how they how they
16:48appear, how they dress,
16:50their tone of voice, their body
16:52language, etc., etc.
16:54It would be in an ideal world,
16:57we wouldn't judge people by appearances.
16:59We would just judge them by what's
17:00inside of them. Yes, I agree with that.
17:02But that we're not ideal. We're not
17:04descended from angels. We're descended
17:06from primates.
17:08So,
17:09you have to understand that appearances
17:11matter.
17:12And this is part
17:14of the game. And so,
17:16you have to control your appearances a
17:18little bit. You have to tailor it. You
17:19have to be a bit of actor in this world
17:21on and on and on.
17:24You know, these are things that people
17:26don't like to admit about ourselves. We
17:28like to think that we we're much more
17:31much more idealistic that we're that
17:33these things really don't matter in the
17:35end.
17:36And I wish it were that way, but it's
17:38not. And so, um I'm a bit more of a
17:40realist when it comes to things like
17:42that. But, yeah.
17:44As you were talking about this
17:47need to keep up appearances to some
17:49degree in order to survive and to fit
17:51into the the tribes that we form in our
17:53lives, it made me think about how many
17:55guests I've had on this podcast who work
17:57in maybe the the entertainment industry
17:59or other industries. Yeah. You know,
18:01they're they're famous or whatever. And
18:03they report that keeping up appearances
18:06had a really detrimental impact on their
18:09happiness and their fulfillment in life
18:11because in some cases they, you know, it
18:13meant that they were doing a job as a
18:14presenter and had to always be happy
18:16when inside they didn't feel that. And
18:17maybe the contrast of reality and um and
18:20perception caused them a lot of harm. Or
18:22they've built a life around things that
18:24they're not interested in. I think you
18:25you touched on some of that in Mastery.
18:27Yeah. Um that's the that's the question
18:29I have, which is keeping up appearances
18:31and the impact that that has on your
18:32happiness. Are you wearing a mask Mhm.
18:35um
18:35and happiness? What's the relationship?
18:39I talk about it in the 48 Laws of Power
18:41where
18:42you have to play this this game in life.
18:44It's a kind to me it's a form of wisdom,
18:47which is
18:49it's a wisdom that used to exist like in
18:51the 18th century.
18:53I read a book that had a big impact on
18:55me many years ago called The Fall of
18:57Public Man by Richard Sennett, in which
19:01he described like cafe life in London in
19:05the 18th century or France. And he was
19:08saying back then when you entered the
19:10public arena or your cafe, you knew you
19:12were an actor. You left the house, you
19:14put on the mask, and you had fun. You
19:17know, you knew it was like fun. It was
19:19play. You know, when you're a child, you
19:22like playing games. You like putting on
19:24costumes. You like playing your parents
19:27or some character you saw on TV. It's
19:29part of human nature. We like to play
19:30these games. We're role players. We're
19:32actors. And he was saying in the 18th
19:35century, that was just a given in life.
19:38That when you entered the public realm,
19:39you knew you were an actor. And then
19:41when you went home to your wife, your
19:43family, or your husband, or wherever,
19:46you dropped the mask. You would you
19:48breathe a deep sigh of relief, go, "Now
19:50I can be who I am." Right? And and it
19:53wasn't a problem. It didn't create
19:55neuroses. It didn't create this like,
19:57"What's wrong with me? I'm I I don't
19:59know who I am anymore."
20:00So, people now, the problem now is we
20:03don't have distance from that social
20:06realm. And so, we think that if we're
20:09acting, that's who we are. But it's not.
20:12It's just that's part of being a social
20:14animal is playing a role. You know, I
20:16did a book with 50 Cent. And he kind of
20:20exemplifies a lot of that.
20:23He plays a role in life. You know, when
20:25I met him, I I thought, "Uh-oh."
20:28I was kind of intimidated. I was a
20:29little bit afraid. You know, the thug.
20:31This is a guy even when I met him, he
20:33was, you know, just a few years away
20:35from being shot and all this stuff.
20:38And I met him,
20:39and he was the nicest person in the
20:41world. He was almost kind of sweet. He'd
20:42hate it if I said that word, but he was
20:44sweet, right? He was very down-to-earth.
20:47He was very calm, etc. He's playing a
20:50role when he goes out and he plays that
20:52person, and he knows it. He knows it's
20:53like He doesn't take it seriously. You
20:56know, he had this big beef with Kanye
20:59West back when I was doing the the the
21:01book with him. And then I met the two of
21:04them in Vegas when they were there for
21:05the awards. They were like the best of
21:07friends. They were joking. It was just a
21:09game they were playing, right? So, what
21:11I tell people is
21:13we all are actors.
21:15Humans are born actors. We learn at a
21:17very early age to play that kind of
21:20game.
21:21It's kind of fun sometimes to do that,
21:23you know?
21:25Have a enjoy that part of life, but
21:27don't think that it don't get it
21:28confused with who you are in your
21:30essence.
21:32That's sort of the dance you're playing
21:33between those two things. I understand
21:36what you're saying and a lot of it has
21:37to do as you said related to mastery.
21:39Where people end up in a career
21:42that doesn't suit them.
21:44And I look I I I I think I understand
21:47what you're getting at. When I look at
21:48like presenters or people in the news
21:51and they and they have to smile and be
21:53so cheerful. I go
21:54man, what a drag. I'd hate to be like
21:57that. You know?
21:59That is so false. Don't you feel kind of
22:01don't you want to take a shower after
22:02you being so cheerful and chatty and all
22:04that
22:06You know? Yeah, I understand that.
22:08But if if that's the profession you
22:10chose and you love it, then maybe you
22:12don't feel that way. I couldn't do it
22:14personally.
22:15But, you know, I think
22:17I think it's okay
22:19to think of yourself as an actor. I
22:21don't think there's anything wrong about
22:22that. Um
22:24the second very curious law in your book
22:26that I uncovered was a was law number
22:28two.
22:29I'm talking about the 48 Laws of Power
22:30here where it says, "Never trust friends
22:32too much.
22:33Learn how to use enemies."
22:34Yeah. Do you trust your friends?
22:38Okay, well, this everything in the book
22:40is context. So, when you take things out
22:42of context, it's a little harder to
22:44understand. And what I'm trying to say
22:46in that
22:47I'm talking about in the work world,
22:50when you're out in the social realm. And
22:52one of the worst things that people do
22:54is
22:55you have a job and I've been guilty of
22:58it myself even after I wrote the damn
22:59book.
23:00You're out in the work world and you
23:01need to hire somebody.
23:03You need to find a colleague. You need
23:05to find some a partner or an employee.
23:09Your mind naturally gravitates towards a
23:11friend,
23:12right? Because they know you, you trust
23:14them, you have a relationship,
23:16you know, and you feel comfortable with
23:18them.
23:19And it's a terrible mistake.
23:21So many of the worst things have
23:23happened in history are because of that
23:25very problem.
23:26Because
23:27friends is there's all these emotions
23:30involved between people, right? And
23:33those emotions confuse the issue. So,
23:35what I'm talking about in that law is
23:38when you need to get results, you need
23:40to think when you have a job or
23:41something, you have to think in
23:43practical terms, not in terms of
23:45emotions, not in terms of friendship,
23:47etc., etc.
23:49So, you want to keep your work world
23:51separate.
23:53It's not everything about life is having
23:55to be friends and having nice things and
23:57everybody like you.
23:59Sometimes what matters is getting
24:01results done. And sometimes the best
24:03person to work with isn't your friend
24:06because they don't have all this other
24:07stuff that we're talking about. In fact,
24:11a very powerful move is if there's an
24:13enemy out there,
24:15somebody who you never got along with,
24:19if you say if you approach them and say,
24:22"Let's bury the hatchet, you know,
24:25I have a job and I'd really like you to
24:26work with me. I know you're really
24:27smart."
24:29That person the the the turnaround of
24:31emotions is a very powerful thing where
24:32they're going,
24:34"Wow.
24:35Yeah, sure. That's That's grand. Never
24:37expected that." And they're all They're
24:39highly motivated to now prove that
24:41they're worthy of of your of your change
24:44of mind.
24:45So,
24:47it's not about not trusting your friends
24:50in the realm of friendship and personal
24:52relationships. It's about being aware
24:55that the work world is different from
24:57the realm of personal relationships. The
24:59other point I I found really curious was
25:01was
25:02point three about concealing your
25:03intentions. And
25:04Yeah. I I find this curious because I've
25:06never really known where to land on this
25:09when people ask me for advice on the
25:10subject matter about how much of your
25:12hand should you show? Whether it's in
25:15business or life or whatever. There's a
25:17There's a group of people that think you
25:18should always just keep everything
25:19you're doing and your intentions totally
25:21secret because then people might copy
25:23you or they'll attack you whatever. And
25:25then there's another school of thought
25:26that says when you're building
25:27something, when you're doing something,
25:28when you have a mission, you need to
25:29share it with as many people as possible
25:31because that will galvanize people to to
25:33come along with the journey with you and
25:34they'll want to support you and help
25:36you.
25:36So when I read um point number three
25:38about concealing your intentions,
25:41I wanted to to ask you about what what
25:43you think about that. Which side do you
25:44land on?
25:45Well, everything depends on
25:47circumstances. So the laws are never
25:50meant to apply to every situation,
25:52right? So when it's with your own team
25:55and you're trying to inspire them and
25:57you're trying to give them a vision,
25:58you're trying to get them on your side,
26:00yeah, you share your vision with them.
26:02You share this is where the group is
26:03going. This is where I want things to be
26:05in three years. Let's all get together.
26:08We're trying to do something very
26:09positive for the world. Okay, here we
26:11Here's my plan. Right? But then there
26:14are circumstances
26:16where revealing everything that what you
26:17about what you're planning to do is
26:19actually very counterproductive.
26:21Right? So the business world
26:24in the 21st century is extremely
26:26competitive. It's getting worse and
26:28worse by the day. As more and more
26:30people now are entering the power arena
26:33and I think it's a great thing. Where it
26:35used to be just a realm where only older
26:38white men had power and now it's the
26:40doors have opened to everyone. The com-
26:43level of competition is that much more
26:45intense. Particularly now even with the
26:47internet. You have rivals out there. You
26:50You competitors out there. Even as we
26:51talk right now. Maybe you're not
26:53thinking about them, but they are.
26:54They're They're looking to steal your
26:56ideas. They're looking to take your
26:58business away from you, etc. etc. Just
27:01be aware of that phenomenon, and just
27:03always saying what you're planning on
27:05doing isn't always the wisest thing to
27:07do. Sometimes, if you're in a tricky
27:10situation,
27:12making putting people off the scent,
27:14giving them a red herring, and saying,
27:16"I'm planning to do this." When in fact
27:17you're planning to do that. It's a very
27:19powerful technique. It's deception. But,
27:22all's fair in love and war and business,
27:25I'm I'm afraid. So, you know,
27:28there are moments where you don't want
27:30to lay all your cards out on the table,
27:32right? You want to either create a
27:35little bit of mystery, so that people
27:37don't know what you're going to do next,
27:39and they're wondering what you're going
27:40to do next.
27:42And as they're wondering what you're
27:43going to do next, they're kind of
27:45on their heels a little bit. What's the
27:47next thing that
27:48that Steven is planning? I don't really
27:50know.
27:51Wow. You know, it makes it it's a very
27:53powerful approach. There are other times
27:57and other experiences and moments in
27:58life where you do want to reveal what
28:00you're planning to do, because there's a
28:01purpose behind it. I'm just saying,
28:04be aware. Don't just act in this world.
28:07Be aware. Have a strategic mindset.
28:10Sometimes, concealing is what you need
28:12to do. Sometimes, not concealing is what
28:14you need to do. It's funny, when we have
28:16this conversation about power and the
28:18darkness and the shadows that people
28:20have in them, I think a lot of people
28:23listening,
28:24and probably it seems that way because
28:27I'm the one asking the questions, is if
28:29I'm questioning society that I'm not
28:30part of.
28:31Um they'll think they don't They might
28:33think they don't play these games,
28:35right? They might, you know, So, that's
28:36the question I have is like, have you
28:38ever encountered anybody? Do you believe
28:39there's anybody out there that doesn't
28:41play power games, manipulation, have
28:43shadows, have darkness in them? No, I
28:45don't. But, um so, in my war book,
28:49uh, I I read the biography of Mahatma
28:52Gandhi,
28:53one of the saintliest figures in
28:55history, right?
28:57And I realized
28:59that Mahatma Gandhi was actually a
29:01brilliant strategist. Now, I'm not
29:03saying his use of non-violence and civil
29:05disobedience
29:07didn't come from the heart. He didn't
29:08mean it. He wasn't actually He didn't
29:11actually believe in the peaceful method.
29:12He did. He was very sincere. But, he was
29:16very strategic about it. And he planned
29:19a campaign, several campaigns, like the
29:21Salt March in the '20s,
29:24where he knew,
29:25for instance, that the English public
29:28was very liberal-minded. They had this
29:29ideal of themselves as being this very
29:32They weren't colonialists. They weren't
29:34imperialists. They were doing the best
29:36for the world.
29:37And he deliberately had these marches,
29:40where he knew that that they're on They
29:42would be reading in their newspaper and
29:43seeing photographs
29:45of Indian people being beaten up by
29:47Englishmen
29:49and and their Indian officers on the
29:51streets of wherever.
29:54It would have a terrible impact on the
29:56public. He thought in terms of strategy.
30:00Okay, so, there's Gandhi. Then, there's
30:01Martin Luther King, who's somebody I
30:03wrote about a lot in The Laws of Human
30:05Nature. Another great icon whom I
30:07admire, who actually was inspired by
30:09Gandhi and had campaigns of civil
30:11disobedience.
30:13And there was a campaign, I believe it
30:14was in Montgomery or Selma, I can't
30:16remember which one,
30:18where, um, he was getting fed up. They
30:20weren't getting very far. The Civil
30:23Rights Movement, they're reaching a
30:24stalemate, and he was getting very
30:25frustrated.
30:27And,
30:28um, somebody an advisor came to him
30:30said, "Look,
30:32we're going to have this massive march,
30:33and and I I can get a lot of
30:37elementary school and junior high school
30:38students to be on this march, because
30:40they believe in you, and they're very
30:42fervent.
30:43And I think it'd be great. And his
30:45advisers go, "God, you can't do that.
30:48You can't have put 13-year-olds at
30:50risk." And Martin Luther King thought
30:52about it for a minute, and he said, "No,
30:53we're going to go ahead and do it."
30:55Because, damn it, I want the American
30:58public sitting in there all fat and
31:00watching their televisions to see these
31:03brutal, you know, Bull Connor, the the
31:05police chief then.
31:07I want to see these children being water
31:09hosed and beaten, and it's going to have
31:11an incredible impact. He was being
31:14strategic, and his advisers were shocked
31:17by it. But, it ended up proving to be
31:18one of the most pivotal important
31:20moments in the civil rights movement.
31:22So, here you have Gandhi and Martin
31:23Luther King. I'm never And Martin Luther
31:25King was a flawed individual, as we
31:27know, right? He had a private life that
31:31wasn't exactly in the the same as his
31:33public life.
31:35I don't judge him for that, because he
31:36was a brilliant man, and I admire him. I
31:38love him deeply. Reading his biography
31:41made me even admire him even more,
31:43seeing that he had a human flawed side
31:45to him.
31:46But, these are icons that we set up, and
31:48they reveal what I'm talking about in
31:50human nature.
31:52You can't escape it.
31:54Yeah, maybe there was some saint born in
31:56some century that I've never heard of
31:57that maybe
31:59got pretty far away from everything I've
32:01talked about.
32:03But,
32:04you know, you know, we all have this
32:06idea like
32:08in Laws of Human Nature, I write about
32:09irrationality, envy, aggression. We go,
32:11"Oh, or narcissism." Narcissism is a
32:13good one.
32:15Oh, they're a narcissist.
32:17I'm not a narcissist. I'm not
32:19self-absorbed, but they are. Yeah, yeah.
32:21I don't have any of those traits.
32:23Well, damn it,
32:24every single human being has
32:26self-absorption traits. We can't help
32:28it. We naturally think of ourselves
32:30first. Yes, there are people who are
32:32much deeper narcissists in life, no
32:35doubt, and there are toxic narcissists,
32:37but we all have a touch of it.
32:40I want you to be a little more humble in
32:41this world and not be so arrogant and
32:43not think that you are somehow exempt
32:46from having a dark side, that somehow
32:49you were born with a halo over your
32:51head, that you were born different, you
32:53don't have human nature, that you're a
32:55saintly person, you're much better. Get
32:58rid of your moral superiority cuz I find
33:00that deeply offensive. We are all cut
33:02from the same cloth. We all have the
33:04same flaws. And when you look at
33:06yourself, and when I wrote the laws of
33:08human nature, I'm going, "Damn it,
33:10Robert.
33:11You You have a dark side. You're a
33:13narcissist." You know, I had to come to
33:15terms with my irrationality, my
33:18grandiosity, my aggressive instincts.
33:22But it's the only way to change yourself
33:24is to be aware that you have these
33:26issues.
33:27I have the narcissistic tendency. Now I
33:30see it. All right. Now when they pop up
33:33pop up, I can control it better. I can
33:34say, "Damn Robert, you're being too
33:36self-absorbed. You think more about the
33:38other person." But if you go around in
33:40life thinking, "I don't have any of
33:41these problems. I'm not a narcissist."
33:43You're never going to have the awareness
33:45to stop the fact that you are actually
33:47one.
33:49Being a narcissist is not objectively a
33:51good or a bad thing. Because when you
33:54when you was obviously I know people are
33:55having a It's a bad thing. It's a
33:57narcissist cause a lot of harm and
33:58that's very true. But in the context of
34:00the human animal and why the human
34:02animal develops certain attributes and
34:04qualities to have to you know, maybe
34:06further its survival or its ability to
34:08stay within the social pact.
34:10Is it just a consequence of being a
34:12human to have these like shadow traits
34:14and to be coercive and manip-
34:17manipulative? Is it good or is it bad?
34:20Or is it neither? It's neither. Neither.
34:23Um
34:24because it just is.
34:26Right? Um so
34:29with narcissism for instance,
34:32um
34:33there's a reason why we're narcissists.
34:36So, I explain in the book, it's not my
34:38own theory, it comes from some great
34:40psychologist like Kohut, the origins of
34:43narcissism, right? So, when you're
34:46have to leave you when your parents have
34:48to kind of not abandon you, but have to
34:50not give you as much attention as you
34:52used to have, and you're 3 years old or
34:544 years old,
34:56you don't remember it, but it was very
34:57painful.
34:59Like, "Oh, they don't love me as much.
35:01What's wrong with me, right?" You know,
35:04I have to get that love and attention
35:07not just naturally, I have to do things
35:08to earn it, etc. etc.
35:11And what happens with a lot of people in
35:13that situation when you're a child is,
35:16I have to develop my own I have to be my
35:19own mother or father. I have to find a
35:21way of loving myself.
35:23When something bad happens, I have to
35:25retreat inward and go, "I'm really not
35:28so bad at all. I'm actually a decent
35:31person. I like my own tastes. I like the
35:34clothes that I wear, etc. etc." You're
35:36developing the shreds of self-esteem,
35:39right?
35:40And people who never develop that
35:42because they were abused or they were
35:45abandoned or even if they were
35:47suffocated,
35:49never develop that self-esteem.
35:51And so, what happens in life is whenever
35:54if you don't develop that and you get
35:56older
35:58and people attack you and yell at you or
36:00criticize you, you can't retreat inward
36:04to that self-esteem, that love you have.
36:06The only thing you know is to get angry,
36:08to get the call it narcissistic rage,
36:10and to yell at people and say, "God, get
36:12away from me. You're you're evil, etc.
36:14etc. etc." Right? And then the other
36:17problems evolve where the only way I
36:19don't have that inner self-esteem, the
36:21only way I can get people to love me is
36:22by being incredibly dramatic and overly
36:26dramatic, etc. etc. etc. and always
36:28making myself the center of attention.
36:30That's what creates a deep narcissist.
36:33That's their only way of getting the
36:35love that they need. So, children, we
36:38all need that degree of self-esteem,
36:40that anchor in our life. So, narcissism,
36:43self-love, is not a bad thing.
36:47But, what happens is as you get older,
36:49if you go too deep into it,
36:52it becomes a problem.
36:54And so, what I say is you need to take
36:55that self-love
36:57and
36:58it has a good function and turn it
37:00outward as
37:01much as you can and turn it into empathy
37:03and love and consideration for other
37:06people. More That's your task as you get
37:08older in life. That's how I approach all
37:10of these flaws.
37:12You can't run away from them. You can't
37:14run away from your shadow, your dark
37:15side. You can make it work for you. You
37:17can make it positive and productive and
37:19healthy. You can become a healthy
37:22narcissist, which is a
37:23a
37:24a name that I use in the book.
37:27You can use your dark side for positive
37:29purposes.
37:31Let's say you have a lot of anger in
37:33your in inside and I had a lot of anger
37:35when I was younger. I was a very angry
37:37young man.
37:38Right?
37:39Channel that into some kind of cause.
37:43Like and you know that I have a lot of
37:45causes that I believe in very deeply.
37:47And when I was younger, I was like that.
37:50Channel that energy into something
37:51productive and helpful and put it into
37:54something that goes to something that
37:56helps society. That's using your dark
37:59side for positive purposes because the
38:02dark side of human nature has a lot of
38:04creativity, has a lot of energy.
38:07An artist has to have a dark side. You
38:09use your dark side because all those
38:11dark emotions, all the people that shat
38:13on you in your life,
38:15they inspire you. They create your best
38:17work. Don't run away from your shadow.
38:19Don't run away away your narcissism. Use
38:21it in a in a healthy way.
38:24And acknowledge it. I think that's the
38:26hardest thing for people to do, right?
38:27Yeah.
38:28So so few people, I think, including
38:30myself, like have really fully
38:32understood what their their shadow and
38:34their dark side is. I mean, doing this
38:35podcast has really helped me because I
38:37learn things from other people
38:38vicariously and then I look at reflect
38:40on myself. Or keeping a diary has helped
38:42me to understand that. But that first
38:43step in someone having the
38:45self-awareness to understand their dark
38:46side. I mean, there's even a lot of
38:47people who
38:49confronting their dark side would be so
38:51It feels like it would be so impactful
38:53on their self-esteem in a negative sense
38:55that they spend their life
38:57putting up a wall to never go there. I
38:59mean, there's some people who you even
39:00mention something
39:02to them and they would trigger triggers
39:04them.
39:04Yeah.
39:05You know, we can all think of those
39:07people. Um
39:09We can all think of those people. The
39:11The really interesting thing there is
39:12the role that your earliest play on your
39:14relationship with power.
39:16Because when I think about some of the
39:17nicest I don't know if this is just a
39:19general
39:20stereotype or a narrow observation I've
39:23had, but some of the nicest people I've
39:24met in terms of you know, being the
39:27opposite of whatever a toxic narcissist
39:30is, seem to have really
39:33comfortable, loving,
39:36secure, safe
39:38early experiences.
39:40And then is that is that broadly true in
39:43your view?
39:44It's a generalization, but there is is
39:47some truth to it. I mean,
39:49there's things that called attachment
39:50theories where
39:52uh psychologists have looked at the kind
39:54of attachment you had to your parents
39:56and they categorize it in four different
39:58ways and there's the ideal, the best one
40:01where you have this
40:02incredibly loving mother and father and
40:05they they're they're giving you
40:07unconditional love, but they know also
40:09how to give you your independence, etc.
40:12It's not terribly common. I don't know
40:14what the percentage would be. Then
40:16there's the levels and levels and then
40:17and then you get to the fourth level
40:18that's like the abandonment one.
40:21Where or abusive and abandonment where
40:24you basically leave the child alone. You
40:25don't give it any attention, any love
40:28and it's very crippling. Right?
40:30But the thing is children are much
40:34stronger than we think they are.
40:37They're very resilient. They're very
40:39resourceful.
40:40They're going to find their love.
40:42They're going to find a way to
40:43compensate for it in some way.
40:46And with something very interesting when
40:48I was doing seduction and some of my
40:50other books
40:51and I look at people who were like very
40:53charismatic.
40:55Like a Malcolm X, like a Marilyn Monroe.
40:58I could go on and on and on. These are
41:00people that came from very very bad
41:04families, right?
41:06They had no love. Marilyn Monroe was an
41:08was an orphan essentially, raised in an
41:11orphanage, you know?
41:13Her whole life was I got to get people
41:15to love me. I need love so desperately.
41:18And her way of doing it
41:20was to literally make love with the
41:22camera. Nobody ever done that before.
41:25You could sense that she needed it and
41:27it was so powerful that you sensed it
41:29that she drew it to herself.
41:32Great charismatic individuals. John F.
41:34Kennedy is someone who had a lot of
41:36charisma. He came from a very bad
41:38childhood, right? His father was very
41:41mean to him, etc. Some children in the
41:44worst circumstances it ends up bringing
41:46the best out of them. They have to find
41:48their way in life and some people who
41:50have everything
41:52don't go very far because they don't
41:54know how to find things for themselves.
41:57So life is weird. Some people who have
41:59great childhoods do well. Some people
42:01who have great childhoods are spoiled
42:03and never learn how to get things on
42:04their own. And some people who have the
42:06shittiest childhoods learn how to be
42:08resourceful and and and and and get what
42:11they need on their own.
42:14You mentioned seduction there, the art
42:15of seduction. Why did you write a book
42:18about the topic of seduction?
42:21Seduction is an high form of power
42:25because you make people feel pleasure.
42:29You make them feel excited or interested
42:31in you, and then their their resistance
42:34to your ideas slowly lowers and you have
42:37the ability to influence them and to
42:39move them in the direction that you
42:40want. If you yell at them, like how we
42:42talked about your child and you tell
42:43them, "Do this, do that." They they
42:45resent it and for good reason.
42:47But if you are subtler, if you're more
42:50seductive in your approach, if you're
42:52more indirect,
42:54people will do what you want or or go in
42:56your direction without ever even
42:57realizing it. So, it was a subtheme in
43:00The 48 Laws of Power.
43:02And so, I was sort of interested in the
43:03psychology of that and why some people
43:05are good at it and some people are
43:06awkward about it. So, when I finished
43:08The 48 Laws of Power, I thought this
43:10would be
43:12a natural segue to the next book. What
43:15are the
43:16qualities of a great seducer?
43:21Well, I like to distinguish between cold
43:23seducers and warm seducers. A cold
43:26seducer is something you don't want to
43:27be.
43:28That's the typical image that we might
43:30have
43:31of a male seducer, but even of a female
43:33seducer like the great courtesans, etc.,
43:35where they're just after money or the
43:37men are just after sex.
43:39That's not my ideal. My ideal
43:43is kind of
43:44a back and forth quality where it's not
43:47domination. It's sort of like a game
43:50that you're playing. It's like a mating
43:51game. It's like a courtship ritual where
43:54both part people are kind of seducing
43:56each other. And so, what makes for a
43:58great seducer is very simple. I can
44:01summarize it very simply.
44:03You are outer directed.
44:05So,
44:06when you meet somebody
44:08for the first time or you're on a date
44:10or whatever it is,
44:12you're not having that internal
44:13monologue going, "Does she like me or
44:16does he like me? Am I dressed well? Am I
44:19saying stupid things? What can I do to
44:21impress them?" No,
44:22you turn it off and you're
44:24outer-directed and you're listening to
44:26them and you're entering their spirit
44:29and you're hearing them say things that
44:31that give you idea of what they're
44:33missing in life, of what they want, of
44:36what their needs are, of what makes them
44:37an individual.
44:39You're absorbing it, you're entering
44:41into their spirit, and then you can
44:43reflect it back to them. You can give
44:45them gifts, you can take them to places
44:47that show that you're attentive to them.
44:50Because if you look at how we are in our
44:52day-to-day life,
44:54normally people never pay us attention.
44:57They're always so self-absorbed, they're
44:59never thinking about us. They're The I
45:01mean, the times where you get the sense
45:04that people are actually interested in
45:06who you are an individual is pretty
45:08rare.
45:09If you give that feeling to someone,
45:11it's incredibly powerful because we all
45:13want to be validated, we all want to be
45:15recognized.
45:17So, what the seducer
45:19is not someone who's all worried about
45:21him- him or herself and thinking they're
45:23involved in the other person, they're
45:25absorbed like a sponge inside their
45:27psychology, inside their world.
45:30A lot of this is, you know, very
45:32applicable to romance and dating, etc.,
45:35etc. It feels, for whatever reason, I
45:37don't, you know, not necessarily
45:38something I've read much about in your
45:39work, but it feels like dating and
45:43romance and relationships have become
45:46much more complicated in the modern
45:47world. That it's be- it's become much
45:49more difficult to seduce
45:51somebody. Um what is the What are the
45:54attributes of someone then that is not
45:56good at seducing?
45:58Anti-seducer
46:00has many qualities. I have a whole
46:02chapter on the anti-seduce. I try and
46:04define it.
46:05Uh there there's several of them. I
46:07can't I don't have them all memorized,
46:08but one quality that's very
46:10anti-seductive is preaching and
46:12moralizing.
46:14Is like telling people
46:16"Oh, that's wrong what you just said."
46:18or "Your politics are ugly." or "You're
46:20not a really You're not really good at
46:22this." or something or other.
46:24Having a moral superiority, a sense of
46:26sanctimonious sanctimony
46:29in a realm which should be about
46:30pleasure, which should be that kind of
46:32equality, that kind of back and forth
46:34dynamic, where you're asserting your
46:36moral superiority is deeply, deeply
46:39anti-seductive. The element of preaching
46:41to people.
46:43Not being generous.
46:45And I mean not just with money. Money is
46:47important.
46:49But not just being generous with your
46:50spirit. Right?
46:52You want to be open. You want to give as
46:54much as you can to the other person of
46:57yourself, of your time, of your money,
47:00of your energy, etc. So, being all kind
47:03of crimped and I don't want to give. I
47:05don't want to spend money. I want to
47:07take you to the cheap place to eat. I
47:10don't want to give you much time. Is
47:12very, very anti-seductive.
47:14When you were talking a second ago about
47:16the person who goes on the date and
47:18they're thinking about themselves and
47:19what they, you know, what their hair
47:21looks like or whatever else.
47:23That spoke to
47:25an insecure person.
47:27Is insecurity a seductive quality or is
47:31it a
47:32anti-seductive quality? It is
47:34anti-seductive. Now, there is a part of
47:37weakness that is seductive.
47:40So, I would say vulnerability is
47:43seductive, but insecurity is
47:45anti-seductive. And there's a big
47:46difference. Why does vulnerability draw
47:48people to you?
47:49Because
47:51the sense So, if I can define seduction
47:54in in in in simple terms,
47:57Um most of the time we are closed to the
48:01influence of other people, particularly
48:03now. We have these walls up because life
48:07is harsh, people are coming at us with
48:09their advertisements, with their pleas,
48:11with their wanting money, with this and
48:12the other, and we've all learned to be
48:14very defensive, right? And seduction is
48:18an openness, is the opposite of that.
48:21And you felt it when you were a child
48:22towards your parents, you felt very
48:24vulnerable and open. And And there was
48:27an element of your parents and how they
48:29treated you that was very much like a
48:30seduction, right? So, seduction is about
48:33being open to the other person to the
48:36extent where you can even fall in love,
48:37you can fall under their spell. And the
48:39sense of letting go of your ego, letting
48:42go of your defensiveness, and letting
48:44other another person enter your world is
48:48being seduced. It requires
48:50vulnerability.
48:52If you meet the typical
48:54um scenarios of a man
48:57who's not vulnerable at all, he's so
48:59powerful and in control and everything,
49:02has no vulnerabilities, it's
49:04frightening,
49:06you know, for a woman. It could be very
49:08frightening. Like this he's he's so
49:11strong, he's so invulnerable that
49:13there's something wrong about it. You
49:15know, maybe he's a serial killer, maybe
49:16he's got skeletons in his closet.
49:18Something isn't right about that.
49:20What What seduces you about a puppy,
49:24about a child, about an animal is their
49:26vulnerability.
49:28It makes you want to hug them, it makes
49:29you want to help them,
49:31right? The sense which if you came upon
49:33a
49:34a tiger that's there and then that they
49:35don't need that, well, that's not
49:36seductive. I mean, on your screen it is,
49:39but if they're there in your living
49:40room, that's not seductive. But that
49:43puppy is, right? Vulnerability, the
49:46sense that somebody needs protection or
49:48help brings out qualities in us that we
49:52don't normally have that I think
49:54allow for seduction. So, that is being
49:57vulnerable. That is
49:59I can be influenced by that other
50:01person. I am open to the to their
50:05spirit, right? That's being vulnerable.
50:08The word vulnerable, I hate to sound
50:10like a professor here, so excuse me, in
50:12seduction comes from the the the root of
50:15it means a wound. Volnus. So, you have a
50:18wound inside of you and you need
50:20healing. And the other person naturally
50:23wants to help you, right? But being
50:25insecure is the op means
50:28I'm so self-absorbed, I'm so worried
50:31about myself
50:32that I can't get out of it.
50:35And we've all had that experience. When
50:37you meet somebody and they and you can
50:39sense you can smell their insecurity in
50:41them. I'm not judging them cuz we all
50:43have insecurities.
50:44It makes you feel insecure.
50:47It makes you feel a little bit awkward.
50:49Whereas if you meet someone who's not
50:51like that, who's confident, etc., it
50:53brings out that quality in you. So, if
50:55you're on a date and there's someone
50:57who's
50:57you smell that kind of insecurity, it
50:59makes you awkward and insecure. It
51:01creates a kind of a problem. So, that
51:03would be the difference between the two.
51:06There's going to be a lot of people
51:07listening to this that are single
51:10and ready to mingle.
51:12Um
51:13what advice would you give them in terms
51:15of
51:16being great at dating? You've talked
51:18about the importance of vulnerability
51:19there and how that kind of forms
51:21connection between humans in a very
51:22innate way. What else is great dating
51:25advice for the for the single people out
51:26there? Well,
51:29the thing is, okay, there's several
51:31things. So, first of all, we live in a a
51:34culture where people think you don't you
51:37shouldn't have to put effort into
51:38something like love and romance. You
51:40should just be who you are, man. I don't
51:43have to put on a role. I don't have to
51:44play a game. That's manipulative, blah
51:46blah blah
51:47No, I'm sorry.
51:50Love and romance is something that is
51:52almost biological.
51:54If you look at animals and mating
51:56rituals, they're incredibly elaborate.
51:58Seduction is a mating ritual. And so,
52:02the worst thing you can feel is that
52:05this person isn't putting any effort
52:07into something.
52:08Let's just say it's it's
52:10it's from the woman's point of view.
52:11This man,
52:13he just shows up wearing jeans in his
52:15usual sloppy outfit. He doesn't comb his
52:18hair, etc. etc. etc.
52:20He takes me to the pub for dinner on our
52:23first date.
52:25You know, he he he's not thinking about
52:27me. He's not willing to put any effort
52:29into it. If he's not willing to put any
52:31effort into it,
52:32what's it going to be like 3 months down
52:34the line when he completely takes me for
52:36granted, which is what happens in a
52:38relationship? Am I not important enough?
52:41Right? Whereas, the ability to have a
52:44little bit of effort to think of it as
52:46kind of theater and drama and that
52:48there's nothing evil about it. So,
52:51I'm going to dress nicely. I'm going to
52:54it doesn't have to be fancy. Just that
52:56I'm going to, you know, I'm going to put
52:58some effort into how I look.
53:00I'm going to take her to a place that
53:03isn't is, you know, I'm not talking
53:05about candle lights and roses and that
53:06kind of crap.
53:08It doesn't have You can be creative. It
53:10can be somewhere that that's scuzzy,
53:11that's on the wrong side of town, but
53:13it's different and it's appealing to and
53:15you put some thought into it. There's a
53:17reason you're taking her there, right?
53:20I have a friend who went on a date and
53:23she came back from the date and was
53:25complaining because the person that she
53:28date went on that first date with
53:31was using a took her to a spot where he
53:33had an available valid discount code for
53:36like two to one.
53:38And and
53:39Talk about anti-seduction. There you go.
53:41Why is that anti-seductive? In that
53:44case, one might say that male is being,
53:47you know, economically savvy,
53:49financially savvy.
53:51They You know, if you're not able to let
53:53go of your of your kind of tightness
53:57when it comes to a woman, something's
54:00wrong with you, man. Just let go. Spend
54:02some extra money. Spend the extra 10
54:04quid that you might need to spend on
54:06taking you to someplace different. But,
54:08it signals a kind of cheapness, and it's
54:11not about money. It's about a cheapness
54:13in your spirit.
54:14Right? She's not worth,
54:17you know, letting go. Okay,
54:19maybe you don't have that much, but my
54:22god, you have enough. It's not going to
54:23like make If you're that poor, then
54:25then, you know, okay, maybe. But,
54:27probably not. You can afford it. Show
54:30that you that that it it means something
54:32to you.
54:34Let Seduction is a language. It's not a
54:36language of words. It's a language of
54:39gestures that we're paying attention to.
54:42We're paying attention to people's body
54:44language. We're
54:45paying attention to their actions, to
54:47the things that they never say.
54:49So, when you signal
54:52that
54:53discounts are so important to you that
54:55even on the first date you have to have
54:57a discount,
54:58you're signaling that it's not There's
55:00something tight about you in your
55:02nature, and it's not very pleasant. I
55:05From doing this podcast and speaking
55:06about topics like love and sex and
55:08dating and, you know, dating apps even,
55:10one of the um
55:13comments I saw quite frequently was from
55:16young men who are struggling to seduce a
55:21woman. Yeah.
55:22Or or vice versa. Um
55:25Specifically young men that, you know,
55:27and then I read some stats. I think
55:28Scott Galloway came on the podcast and
55:29talked about how
55:31I'm going to butcher these numbers, but
55:33a staggering amount amount of men
55:34haven't had sex in the young men haven't
55:36had sex in the last 12 months. Um and
55:39then I when I looked at the comment
55:41section specifically on YouTube, I saw I
55:43kind of saw that energy reflected where
55:45it looked like young men in particular
55:47were struggling to
55:49seduce um a mate, a partner in the
55:51modern world.
55:54Is Do Do Is that real in your view? Is
55:56there Is there something that has
55:58changed in society? Has that always been
56:00the case?
56:01Um is there anything we can do if we're
56:03we're a young man that's struggling in
56:04the modern world because of the internet
56:06and computers and this and dating apps
56:07and
56:09Well, a lot of it is, I'm afraid to say,
56:12is internet porn.
56:14Where you get the idea that, you know,
56:16sex is something that should be very
56:18easy and quick and that women should
56:20have Look have that kind of
56:22body and physique, etc., etc. And that
56:25becomes your norm. So, that can be that
56:28can be very damaging.
56:30But the idea that things must come easy
56:32and quick is is very prevalent.
56:35And to win over someone like a Let's say
56:39you're a man and it's a woman who might
56:41be reluctant to have sex for good reason
56:44or reluctant to have a relationship
56:47requires some effort. It requires some
56:49thinking. You can't just hack your You
56:51can't just swipe and get it. You can You
56:54can have your internet sex, but you're
56:55not going to get that in real life. It
56:57doesn't work that way. It takes time. It
57:00takes patience. You know, and you're
57:02going to have to work at and you're
57:03going to be rejected.
57:05Being with people is a skill. Being a
57:08social animal
57:10although there's a part that comes
57:11naturally, if you spend all of your time
57:13here, you're losing that skill of how to
57:16respond to people's body language. You
57:19know, half of the thing is you're
57:21sitting in a bar opposite Let's say it's
57:23a woman.
57:25And how she crosses her legs, how she
57:28sips her drink, how she looks at you,
57:31how she touches her hair. She's
57:33signaling things. It's a language, it's
57:35a beautiful language.
57:37Right?
57:38You have to learn it, and you're not
57:39going to learn it here because you
57:40can't. You have to be in person, it has
57:43to be skin to skin. You have to get a
57:45feel for what other people are thinking
57:47and feeling. And we're actually really,
57:49really good at that. Humans have That's
57:52what makes us human. It's called mirror
57:54neurons. I can sense what's going on in
57:57your mind. I can read your body
57:58language.
58:00You have to get out in the world, and
58:01you have to be put yourself physically
58:03out there and try and try and try and
58:06have rejection.
58:08And I know it sounds awful, but it is a
58:10skill in a way where you're learning how
58:13to like understand and deal with people
58:16and and and and understand that what
58:18they're who they are and get inside
58:20their spirit. It takes time and effort
58:22and patience. So, for young men,
58:26you have to realize that, right? You If
58:28you If you think everything has to be
58:30easy and quick, it's never going to work
58:32for you.
58:33In the In the I talk about the actor,
58:35the Hollywood actor Errol Flynn,
58:37who was perhaps
58:40numerically the greatest sedu- male
58:42seducer ever because it's estimated that
58:44he had seduced close to 3,000 women, and
58:48he died when he was 50.
58:50And if I I did the math one day, I go,
58:52"What the How can that possibly be?"
58:54Um
58:55and I I tried to research what was his
58:57secret, and it was hard to find out.
59:00Finally, I found a book written by a
59:01woman whom he had seduced, another
59:03actress, and she said,
59:06"He was so relaxed and so comfortable.
59:10It was like being It was like an animal
59:12type thing, and then when I would sit
59:13with him, it was almost as if I had
59:15drunk two martinis just sitting next to
59:18him. His comfort and his security and
59:21his confidence, his relaxed attitude, it
59:23just made me drunk."
59:25So,
59:26feeling relaxed, feeling confident, and
59:29not defensive, and comfortable with
59:32yourself
59:33is a very powerful seductive quality. I
59:35mean, there are many of them, but that's
59:37one that I would point out. Have you
59:38ever figured out what builds confidence?
59:41You Earlier on you were talking about
59:43how children need to experience things
59:46firsthand. You can't just tell them. You
59:47can't just tell someone, for example, to
59:49be confident. Preaching doesn't seem to
59:50work.
59:51What what is it in your view that
59:53that does build that true or You also
59:56can't fake confidence. No. I remember I
59:59take We talked about rejection a second
1:00:00ago. I was rejected by pretty much every
1:00:03girl that I was pursuing between the
1:00:05ages of of
1:00:0716 and I'd say 22. Really? Yeah. Like
1:00:11And I Do you know what it was? I I was
1:00:13faking confidence. It all changed when I
1:00:16was actually had a sense of security in
1:00:18myself. All right. But in the period
1:00:20where I was like faking confidence, I
1:00:22was pretending I was confident. Um
1:00:25it was like they could they just could
1:00:26read past it. That's almost how I look
1:00:28back on the situation. So, I came to
1:00:30learn that you can't fake confidence.
1:00:32You can't pretend to be it because
1:00:33there's so many sort of micro
1:00:34expressions that Yeah. that you that
1:00:37look that end up reading more like
1:00:39insecurity than confidence. Um
1:00:41But what is real confidence and how does
1:00:43one build it in your view? Well, you've
1:00:44kind of answered your own question there
1:00:46in a way. So, um
1:00:48you know, can't fake confidence is like
1:00:50bravado, right? And you're you're
1:00:52putting on an act.
1:00:54And particularly women who've had to
1:00:56deal with this for,
1:00:58you know, millennia,
1:01:00they can smell it. They can sense it.
1:01:02They don't have to It doesn't have to
1:01:03It's not in your words. It's the body
1:01:04language, etc., etc.
1:01:07Real confidence comes from actual, um
1:01:10actions, from your actual things you've
1:01:12accomplished, right? So,
1:01:16you know, when you're 22, 21, it's hard
1:01:18to have that confidence because what is
1:01:20it based on?
1:01:21You know, maybe it's based
1:01:24Okay, maybe you're you're really
1:01:25good-looking if you happen to have that
1:01:27good fortune and you can feel confident
1:01:29about that and you don't have to try so
1:01:31hard. All right, maybe that might work.
1:01:34Or maybe you're really good at sports or
1:01:37maybe you're a really good dancer or
1:01:39you're a really great singer, but it's
1:01:41based on something real. You have a
1:01:43skill. You have something that separates
1:01:45you. You have something that you can do
1:01:47that you can accomplish.
1:01:49Because when you're 21, it's hard to
1:01:50have those. You know, I look back on
1:01:52myself when I was that age. I had
1:01:54nothing. No wonder I got rejected, you
1:01:57know?
1:01:57Um
1:01:59So, it comes from what you do in life.
1:02:03Okay? The The finest sense of confidence
1:02:06is actually creating things and having
1:02:08success and meeting goals and achieving
1:02:11things and having a a record of that.
1:02:14You know, and maybe what goes with that
1:02:16is having a some money, but it's not
1:02:18necessarily because you don't have to
1:02:19have a lot of money and you don't have
1:02:21to be good-looking to seduce. That's a
1:02:23myth that I try to explode in The Art of
1:02:26Seduction. Some of the greatest
1:02:28seducers, male and female, were not
1:02:30good-looking at all. It's about
1:02:32psychology and it's about how you carry
1:02:34yourself.
1:02:35But the confidence comes from
1:02:38actually what you can do,
1:02:40not how you feel or what you say. Well,
1:02:42it is how you feel, but the feeling is
1:02:44based on things that you actually can
1:02:46do, skills that you have that separate
1:02:48you, that make you feel
1:02:51really confident, you know?
1:02:53So. Body language.
1:02:56Yeah, I I find it fascinating that, you
1:02:57know, there's quotes and things that say
1:03:0080% of our communication is nonverbal,
1:03:02etc., etc. And body language is so
1:03:05interesting to me because again, I think
1:03:06that's one of the things that it's just
1:03:08impossibly hard to fake. I was reading,
1:03:10you know, a couple of books on There was
1:03:12a phase when I was, I don't know, 20,
1:03:14probably just after being rejected all
1:03:15the time, when I was maybe 22, where I
1:03:17started reading books from pickup
1:03:19artists. And they would obsess
1:03:22on the topic of body language. And one
1:03:23of the things they'd say is
1:03:25and I try I was explaining this to my
1:03:27girlfriend a couple of weeks ago
1:03:28that when when a man is lower
1:03:30confidence, when he's desperate, he does
1:03:32this thing called pecking in a
1:03:33nightclub, where he'll like lean in and
1:03:35like shout in your ear. And when he's
1:03:37higher confidence, he kind of leans out
1:03:39and he'll he'll wait for you to lean in.
1:03:42Small things like that, subtleties like
1:03:44that, that intuitively we we're reading
1:03:46and understanding and communicating and
1:03:48etc. But someone that doesn't have the
1:03:51confidence probably isn't even aware
1:03:52that they do. So when I reflect on my
1:03:54rejection phase, I think, "Gosh, my body
1:03:57language must have been exuding
1:03:59desperation and low status and low
1:04:01value, low self-esteem."
1:04:03What's your thoughts on body language
1:04:04and
1:04:06Well, in my last book Human Magnet I
1:04:08wrote a whole chapter on it.
1:04:10I you quoted the figure 95%, but who
1:04:13knows what it really is.
1:04:15The thing it is that we evolved for
1:04:18hundreds of thousands of years before
1:04:20language existed, right? And our
1:04:22earliest ancestors depended on the group
1:04:26for their survival and getting along.
1:04:28And their powers came from observing
1:04:30other people and their body language.
1:04:32You could read it. So it's a skill
1:04:34that's wired into us, wired into our
1:04:36brains. It's a very unique skill that we
1:04:38humans have. It's just that you don't
1:04:41learn that. When you're a child, when
1:04:43you're 2 years old, you have it cuz your
1:04:45life depends on it.
1:04:47You have to see what if your mother is
1:04:50is loving you or is your father is kind
1:04:52to you. Because if not, you know, you
1:04:54could be abandoned. Your life depends on
1:04:55it. You're great at reading that. And
1:04:57children have are incredibly adept at
1:05:00picking up body language. So if someone
1:05:03is fake
1:05:04if someone's an impostor they hate being
1:05:07around children because children see
1:05:08through you, you know, like you know,
1:05:10like radar, right? Because they're so
1:05:13attuned to it. You had that skill when
1:05:15you were very young, but you lost it
1:05:17because you became so oriented with
1:05:19words and you became so self-absorbed
1:05:22that you're not paying attention.
1:05:24But it's extremely important, right? So,
1:05:28the whole body is involved in it. So,
1:05:31you've got to first stop thinking about
1:05:34people's words so much because the one
1:05:37thing about words, unfortunately, is
1:05:38people can lie. They can say whatever
1:05:41they want. They can say, "I love your
1:05:42screenplay. That was fantastic. You were
1:05:45great in that movie. I thought you were
1:05:46great." etc. They can say anything to
1:05:49please, to flatter, to cajole you. But
1:05:51body language, man, it doesn't lie,
1:05:54right? So, I talk in that book about the
1:05:56eyes and the fake smile. The fake smile
1:06:00is something you see every single day,
1:06:02but you're not paying attention. It's
1:06:03like
1:06:06It's kind of tight, right? It's like
1:06:10right? But a real smile,
1:06:12your the whole face gets animated and
1:06:15there's a little crinkly thing here as
1:06:17your face as you as it lights up and
1:06:19your eyes light up. It's It's hard to
1:06:22even put into words, but it's there. You
1:06:23can see it. It's real. It's not faked.
1:06:27Knowing the difference between a fake
1:06:28and a real smile is really important in
1:06:31seduction, in business, or whatever. To
1:06:33know if someone is like, "Yeah,
1:06:35I like that idea." You know they don't
1:06:38really. They're saying that to please
1:06:39you. They actually hate your idea. You
1:06:41master that language, you can start
1:06:43deciphering all this people are
1:06:45giving you.
1:06:46The face, you can disguise it a little
1:06:49bit. Actors know that. But you know what
1:06:51you can't fake? It's your voice.
1:06:55If you're nervous,
1:06:56not even the finest actors in the world
1:06:59can fake that. Your voice betrays so
1:07:01many things about you. It betrays your
1:07:04weakness. It betrays your lack of
1:07:06confidence Or it betrays the other
1:07:08quality, etc. Right? So, pay really
1:07:11attention to the tone of people's
1:07:13voices, to how fast they talk. People
1:07:16who talk fast are very nervous.
1:07:18Someone who's talk I know I'm probably
1:07:20talking a little too fast here. Sorry.
1:07:23Um my mind races, so I can do that.
1:07:25Normally, I don't talk so fast.
1:07:27But um
1:07:29you know, you you talk slowly, you have
1:07:31a certain tone, you have a certain
1:07:32intonation that kind of reveals
1:07:34confidence. Okay?
1:07:36Body language, posture. You were talking
1:07:39about pecking, right? When you go and
1:07:42look at a meeting of people in in a
1:07:44business meeting,
1:07:46you'll see all the employees kind of
1:07:48leaning forward, nervous, and you'll see
1:07:50the boss kind of leaning back, arms
1:07:53crossed like this, you know? I'm the
1:07:55powerful one. You come to me. I'm the
1:07:57leader. I'm the I'm the top dog or she,
1:08:00it's a woman.
1:08:01I don't need to be like this. I'm like
1:08:03this. Body language reveals a lot about
1:08:06leadership qualities, etc. etc. etc.
1:08:10You know, if you go
1:08:12you're at a party
1:08:14and you come up to someone that you're
1:08:16meeting for the first time, and they're
1:08:18talking to you, and you notice that
1:08:20their feet are angling away from you,
1:08:24that means that they're not really
1:08:25interested they're looking for any
1:08:26moment to try and walk away and escape.
1:08:29They're not really into you. Whereas
1:08:30their feet are facing you, they're
1:08:32engaged, they want to talk to you,
1:08:34right?
1:08:35This is a whole art you can learn, and
1:08:37you can sit there and you can read it,
1:08:38and I talk about I give the story in
1:08:41Laws of Human Nature of a man named
1:08:43Milton Erickson, the founder of NLP and
1:08:47hypnotherapy, probably one of the most
1:08:49brilliant psychologists who ever lived.
1:08:51When Milton Erickson was 19 years old or
1:08:53so, he had polio.
1:08:55He nearly died. His entire body was
1:08:58paralyzed. The only thing he could move,
1:09:01the only muscle he can move are his
1:09:02eyeballs. Now, imagine that. He was a
1:09:05young man with a very active mind. He
1:09:07can't talk. He can't do anything. All he
1:09:09can do is move his eyeballs a little
1:09:11bit.
1:09:12He was so bored. Can you imagine how
1:09:14bored you'd be like that? You can't
1:09:15read. You can't do anything.
1:09:17People would come in to visit him.
1:09:19All they could do was look at them and
1:09:21study them.
1:09:22He became the greatest reader
1:09:25of body language ever in the history of
1:09:27mankind. People said it was he was
1:09:29almost had ESP. He could read everything
1:09:32about who they were just by look cuz he
1:09:34ended up recovering. He became a
1:09:36psychologist.
1:09:37Because his life depended on developing
1:09:39this skill. He was going to just die
1:09:41from sheer boredom if he didn't learn
1:09:43how to read body language. He mastered
1:09:46that language much like somebody could
1:09:48master French. And it's an incredibly
1:09:50powerful language that I I I can't
1:09:52emphasize enough.
1:09:55You know, we can go about learning the
1:09:57language of body language and I'm sure
1:09:59that will help, but
1:10:01it's such a complex
1:10:04um
1:10:05like va There's like a a thousand things
1:10:07with my body language at all times. Like
1:10:09how I'm speaking, my eyeballs, my where
1:10:11I'm looking, my posture, my arms. Like
1:10:13am I crossing my arms? Am I crossing my
1:10:14legs? All of these things. So, the the
1:10:17challenge of mastering all of that feels
1:10:19a little bit overwhelming. Um am I right
1:10:21in assuming the easiest
1:10:24the easier challenge to master is in
1:10:26fact just like my sense of self?
1:10:28Very well put. Because uh you know, If
1:10:31you feel confident, if you feel secure,
1:10:33if you're not
1:10:35all inward and insecure and worried
1:10:37about yourself, it will naturally
1:10:40radiate through your gestures. Yeah? You
1:10:42don't have to sit there and pay
1:10:43attention to your fingers, your arm,
1:10:44your ears, your eyes. It's just there.
1:10:47It's natural. So, yeah, that is the
1:10:49solution. So, the two game parts of the
1:10:51game, it's your own body language. Be
1:10:53aware that people are judging you for
1:10:55that, right? And you can't, as you say,
1:10:58be monitoring everything or you'll drive
1:11:00yourself crazy and you'll look very
1:11:01weird.
1:11:03Right? So, the best solution is to feel
1:11:05these certain things that are going to
1:11:07radiate and to not give the fake smile,
1:11:10but when you're really
1:11:12happy to just show it and and show your
1:11:14emotion that way. And the other side,
1:11:18which is more is I think
1:11:20really important, is learning other
1:11:22people's body language and that can come
1:11:24from study and is much more a logical
1:11:26thing than a than constantly thinking
1:11:28about everything that you do.
1:11:32Your next book
1:11:34that I have here,
1:11:35Mastery.
1:11:37Why did you write a book called Mastery?
1:11:40Well, to be honest with you, it came uh
1:11:42the idea for it was in around the year
1:11:442010, 2009. I was getting a little
1:11:47worried that people who were reading my
1:11:49books, particularly young men,
1:11:51reading Power and Seduction, they they
1:11:52were thinking
1:11:54that's all I need in life, man. I just
1:11:55need to be a manipulator. I just need to
1:11:57play political games. That's what
1:11:58success is all about.
1:12:00And I was worried that, you know,
1:12:03if if you don't understand how to make
1:12:05something, what's going to be the future
1:12:07of mankind? Are bridges just going to
1:12:10fall down? Are hotels going to collapse?
1:12:12People don't know how to make things
1:12:13anymore. We don't know how to use our
1:12:15hands anymore, right? So,
1:12:18being able to be good with people is
1:12:20extremely important as a social animal,
1:12:22but perhaps higher up in the hierarchy
1:12:25is being able to do things, to be able
1:12:27to have great skill and to be able to
1:12:29create something and know how to master
1:12:32a subject and to, you know, build
1:12:34something that can last. That's really
1:12:37important and I'm feeling like because
1:12:40young people, this is back in 2010,
1:12:42imagine now,
1:12:44had this idea that everything comes
1:12:46quick and easy because you can click,
1:12:48click, click and things come to you.
1:12:50That everything in life should be that
1:12:51way. That we're we're becoming alienated
1:12:54from the human brain, how the human
1:12:56brain operates. Because the human brain
1:12:58requires time. If you know how the human
1:13:01brain operates, we have what are called
1:13:03neural pathways. And every time you
1:13:05repeat something, a neural pathway is
1:13:08created and strengthened and
1:13:09strengthened and strengthened. It's why
1:13:11we get addicted to things, but it's also
1:13:14why we develop skill. So, if I'm sitting
1:13:17there shooting free throws day in and
1:13:19day out, yeah, my brain is wiring it.
1:13:21It's learning it. It's learning that
1:13:22motor skill, that hand mind thing, and
1:13:25it's getting better and better and
1:13:26better at it. It takes time. It takes
1:13:29repetition to build those pathways. And
1:13:32I explain in Mastery
1:13:34that you reach the proverbial 10,000
1:13:36hours, which some people dispute
1:13:38nowadays. So, it's just a number. It's
1:13:40not It's not a fact.
1:13:42You have
1:13:43spent so long learning something
1:13:46that there's so many pathways, it's like
1:13:48this amazing
1:13:50uh inner landscape with all these
1:13:52connections going on in your brain. And
1:13:54now you can be creative. Now you can
1:13:57come up with things that nobody's ever
1:13:58thought of. You can play chess on a
1:14:00higher level. You can be Pelé on soccer
1:14:03or Lionel Messi making passes that no
1:14:06one had ever seen before because you're
1:14:07not having to think. Right? You don't
1:14:09have to think anymore. Your body just
1:14:11does does what it wants.
1:14:13Imagine 20,000 hours, which is possible
1:14:15just people sometimes attain in certain
1:14:17fields.
1:14:18You're almost like a genius. You're
1:14:20almost like superhuman, right?
1:14:23If you're someone who's so locked into
1:14:25the internet and to getting things
1:14:27instantly, you can't get past 100 hours,
1:14:29let alone 10,000. You're never going to
1:14:32develop skill, and you're going to find
1:14:34life really, really difficult for you.
1:14:36So, I wrote the book because I was
1:14:38actually deeply worried that we were
1:14:40losing a part of of how the human brain
1:14:43operates, something elemental part of
1:14:46our wisdom.
1:14:48The interesting three-line between that
1:14:50and the subject matter we've discussed
1:14:52in power and seduction is that by
1:14:55learning to master something you build
1:14:56that sense of self-esteem and confidence
1:14:58that we're looking for um to to be good
1:15:01at the former topics mentioned. But
1:15:04on the topic of um mastery, the first
1:15:07chapter in this book and really the
1:15:08first question a lot of people ask is
1:15:10this question about finding your
1:15:11passion. And I've always had a difficult
1:15:13relationship with this question because
1:15:15it sometimes assumes that there's one of
1:15:16them and that you have to go in search
1:15:18of it somewhere. Uh in the first chapter
1:15:20of your book you talk about discovering
1:15:21your life task.
1:15:23Um
1:15:25why why is it important Is it the same
1:15:27thing? Is Is finding your passion and
1:15:28finding your life task the same thing?
1:15:31You know, I just recorded this yesterday
1:15:32uh on my own podcast. I went on a rant
1:15:35about how it's not about passion. It's
1:15:37not about finding your passion. I
1:15:39actually don't like that word passion.
1:15:41It kind of makes me cringe.
1:15:43Because if you think about it, passion
1:15:46to succeed at anything requires time and
1:15:48effort and boredom and tedium.
1:15:52So let's just say as a simple example,
1:15:53you're learning to play the piano. When
1:15:55you first sit down at the piano, you
1:15:57have to play these really insipid tunes.
1:16:00It's so boring. You have to learn you
1:16:02know, um I forget what they call it um
1:16:04finger exercises and scales on any
1:16:07instrument You have to learn scales,
1:16:08etc. It's tedious, man. If you think
1:16:12it's got to be passion
1:16:14forget it, you're never going to get
1:16:15far. The thrill comes after a year of
1:16:18playing the piano and you get better at
1:16:20it and better and better. And now starts
1:16:22coming fun. Then 10 years, it's more
1:16:25fun. Then 20 years, it's fantastic, you
1:16:27know?
1:16:28I'm not I'm not trying to name-drop
1:16:30here, but the other night I had dinner
1:16:32with Stevie Wonder.
1:16:34It was the most amazing thing I ever
1:16:36seen. He's absolutely I wish I'd
1:16:38interviewed him for my book. Speaking of
1:16:40genius.
1:16:41You know, and and he's blind, obviously.
1:16:44Everybody knows.
1:16:45But I was watching him he performed for
1:16:47us we were over there with a group group
1:16:49of friends at his recording studio. I
1:16:51was watching him play the piano and he's
1:16:53blind.
1:16:54Right? And he's he's improvising. And
1:16:56it's just absolutely brilliant and
1:16:58amazing. As I'm seeing this I'm
1:17:00thinking, I could see the thousands of
1:17:03hours he's been putting in just touching
1:17:05these keyboards and knowing where the
1:17:07where the where the keys are. You know,
1:17:09it was just mind bog mind blowing how
1:17:12amazing it was. That is the power that
1:17:15the human brain naturally has through
1:17:18hours and hours and hours of effort.
1:17:21That's how it works. So,
1:17:24you know, he didn't get there because it
1:17:26was passion. He got there cuz he was a
1:17:29child prodigy at the age of 11. He was
1:17:32signed to a contract with Motown
1:17:34Records, right?
1:17:35He was playing that as he was a kid hour
1:17:39after hour after hour after hour. He had
1:17:41a love for the piano, but it wasn't like
1:17:44every time he sat down it had to be
1:17:46passionate about it. He had the patience
1:17:48to put up with all of the boring stuff,
1:17:51okay? So,
1:17:53you want to discover what you were meant
1:17:55to what you have a connection to, what
1:17:57you have a love for, right? When you're
1:18:00a child, hopefully, or when you're 18 or
1:18:0219 or 20. That's the best time to
1:18:04discover it. All right?
1:18:07You decide and it doesn't have to be
1:18:10something highfalutin or or worth uh you
1:18:13know, like intellectual. You could be
1:18:15great with your hands. You could be
1:18:17great with your body. You could be great
1:18:19with images and visuals. You could be
1:18:21great with words. You could be great in
1:18:23many different areas. Okay? They're all
1:18:26equal. They're all great. You as a child
1:18:29are naturally So, there's a a book I
1:18:31always recommend for people called The
1:18:32Five Frames of Mind by Howard Gardner.
1:18:35In which he talks about the five forms
1:18:37of intelligence that humans have.
1:18:40The Each brain biogenetically is wired
1:18:44in one direction or the other.
1:18:46You want to know that you want to feel
1:18:48it inside of you.
1:18:49It's like a feeling. It's not an
1:18:51intellectual thing. You feel when you're
1:18:53doing sports that it's it's good. It's a
1:18:55natural thing. It's what I'm meant for.
1:18:58When you're involved with words like I
1:19:00was when I was 8 years old, it felt
1:19:02right. Felt like a natural fit. I have
1:19:05to follow this path. When you're 3 or 4
1:19:08years old and it's music like Stevie
1:19:10Wonder and you're hearing this in your
1:19:11head, wow, that's that's it for me,
1:19:14right? Okay, you feel it. You feel this
1:19:17connection.
1:19:19All right. Now you fast forward to when
1:19:20you're 18 or 19 years old and you're
1:19:22having to make a career choice.
1:19:25Okay, so
1:19:26I call that your 20s the most important
1:19:28phase of your life. That's going to make
1:19:30or break you in some way.
1:19:33If you spend your 20s trying to learn
1:19:36skill in something that connects to you
1:19:39deeply,
1:19:40right?
1:19:42Then things are going to happen to you
1:19:43by the time you reach 30. You've
1:19:45discovered your life's task. It may not
1:19:48be something so specific. For me,
1:19:51it was writing and words, but I didn't
1:19:54know what to write. I tried novels, I
1:19:56tried journalism, I tried theater, I
1:19:58tried screenwriting.
1:20:00But you know it it gives you a direction
1:20:01and you try and you try and try and you
1:20:03know that's what you were meant for.
1:20:05That's what you were destined for.
1:20:07You have You feel connected to it. You
1:20:08feel a love for it. And so when it comes
1:20:11time to do the tedious stuff,
1:20:13you're able to do it because you know in
1:20:16the end it'll pay rewards. You'll get
1:20:18better and better at it and the
1:20:19connection is so deep that to not do it
1:20:23would be miserable.
1:20:24So,
1:20:26you can't think of everything in life
1:20:27having to be pleasurable and having to
1:20:29be passionate. There's going to be
1:20:31boredom. There's going be tedium. How do
1:20:33I deal with it? You have to feel a
1:20:35greater love than just mere pleasure or
1:20:38passion. It's got to be something so
1:20:40deep within you that to not do it will
1:20:43make you deeply unhappy. For me not to
1:20:46write or be a writer, I don't think I'd
1:20:48be alive right now. I would have been so
1:20:49miserable. I would have been so
1:20:50alienated from who I am. So, that's what
1:20:53will get you through. That's That's what
1:20:54a life's task is.
1:20:56When you think about that, in the book
1:20:57you talk about the first phase, which
1:20:59is, you know, your apprenticeship
1:21:01on your journey to mastery.
1:21:03When you're in that apprenticeship
1:21:04phase,
1:21:06you know, when you're maybe early in
1:21:07your career, you're early in on your
1:21:08journey to becoming the pianist, the
1:21:10violinist, the podcaster, the
1:21:11entrepreneur, whatever,
1:21:13what are the the most important things
1:21:15to be
1:21:16um selecting for as it relates to the
1:21:19job you take, the people you're around,
1:21:21that kind of thing. Like, if there's a
1:21:2323-year-old listening to this that is a
1:21:26you know, an apprentice at a floristry
1:21:28shop
1:21:29making bouquets of flower, and they're
1:21:31being offered five different jobs in the
1:21:33industry of floristry, which one should
1:21:35they be looking at if they're in the
1:21:37early steps of their apprenticeship?
1:21:38Very easy question to answer. Thank you.
1:21:40Um you want to look for the job that
1:21:43offers you the most possibilities of
1:21:44learning.
1:21:46So, if you're going to go to a florist
1:21:47shop
1:21:49where um there's only one other person
1:21:51there, it's like an entrepreneur who
1:21:53started it,
1:21:54and you're going to be like their
1:21:55right-hand man or woman, and you're
1:21:57going to learn, and the pay is half of
1:22:00what you could get at this very fancy
1:22:02You could be a working at the shop at
1:22:05some department store where they'd pay
1:22:06you triple, take the job that pays 1/3
1:22:10where you're going to learn the most.
1:22:11You're going to learn about the
1:22:12business. You're going to learn from the
1:22:14ground up, and, you know, there's going
1:22:17to be a level of excitement where,
1:22:19you know, we might not survive another
1:22:22few months. We've got to work hard.
1:22:23We've got to be motivated. We're all on
1:22:24the the page here.
1:22:26A lot of people, when they're 23, they
1:22:28grab the job with the biggest paycheck,
1:22:30and that's a mistake. Because if you go
1:22:33to like a large large firm,
1:22:36you're kind of lost. You don't have as
1:22:37much responsibility. You suddenly have
1:22:39to deal with all the political games,
1:22:41the 48 laws of power.
1:22:43You're not paying attention. You're not
1:22:45developing skills as much. You don't
1:22:47have as much responsibility.
1:22:49Take the job that has 1/2 the salary,
1:22:53but you're responsible, you're going to
1:22:55be learning, and it's up to you.
1:22:57That's that's the most important thing
1:22:59you can do when you're at that point in
1:23:01your life.
1:23:02You say there's three steps in that
1:23:04apprenticeship. Deep observation.
1:23:07Is that what you mean when you say deep
1:23:08observation? You mean like being able to
1:23:10observe the job happening, or do you
1:23:12mean something else? Well, it means
1:23:14that. It also means
1:23:16So, most people when they start a job,
1:23:18their whole their first impulse is, I've
1:23:19got to impress people. I've got to make
1:23:22them like me.
1:23:23That's that inward direction that's so
1:23:25deadly in seduction, and it's deadly in
1:23:27life. You want to be outer directed. You
1:23:30want to observe the codes and
1:23:32conventions of your field, the social
1:23:34codes. You know, what what's acceptable
1:23:37behavior, what's not acceptable
1:23:39behavior, the skills involved, the the
1:23:42various heuristics, the various things
1:23:44that you have to learn that create
1:23:46skill. You want to be a sponge absorbing
1:23:49what's going on around you. What are the
1:23:52things you need to learn? What are the
1:23:54valuable skills? What are the things
1:23:56that aren't valuable? What are Who are
1:23:58the people you need to avoid? Who are
1:23:59the people you need to emulate?
1:24:01You're a a laser. You're just observing
1:24:04everything around you, and not worried
1:24:06about yourself. That's the proper That's
1:24:08deep observation. You talked about skill
1:24:11there. It's all well and good seeing
1:24:13skills and knowing which skills are
1:24:14important, but acquiring those skills is
1:24:16point number two when you're in that
1:24:17apprenticeship phase in life. Skills
1:24:19acquisition. And this kind of goes to
1:24:21what you're saying with the working in a
1:24:22florist shop next to the entrepreneur.
1:24:24You're going to be hands-on. You're
1:24:25going to be doing. Which is also goes to
1:24:27what you said earlier about parents and
1:24:29children, like putting them in
1:24:30situations where they get to do stuff.
1:24:32Yeah.
1:24:33A lot of jobs don't offer that. A lot of
1:24:35jobs don't offer the difficulty, the
1:24:36challenge. Right?
1:24:38How helpful is that? Well, we call it
1:24:41learning by doing.
1:24:43And you see some things play into how
1:24:45the human brain operates. That was
1:24:46That's what you want. I give the image
1:24:49in the in the intro to master the Pardon
1:24:51the alliteration here, but the brain has
1:24:53a grain to it.
1:24:55You want to work with that grain. You
1:24:56don't want to work against the grain cuz
1:24:58it's counterproductive. And one of the
1:25:00grains of the brain, sorry, is learning
1:25:04by doing.
1:25:05When
1:25:06you know, flashback 300,000 years ago
1:25:10and we're sitting there, we're making
1:25:11tools out of bones, out of wood, etc.
1:25:14The way the skill was passed on to other
1:25:17people, it didn't die with the with one
1:25:19generation, was you watched this person
1:25:22making the tool and then you watched
1:25:23them and you learned and you imitated
1:25:25them.
1:25:26Flash forward to the medieval period in
1:25:28Europe where they had apprentices,
1:25:30apprenticeship schools. Seven years
1:25:33you're learning masonry, you're learning
1:25:35carpentry, you're learning whatever.
1:25:37For seven years you're sitting there
1:25:38watching somebody make things and you're
1:25:40doing it. That's how the brain operates.
1:25:44You learn by doing, not by thinking. Not
1:25:46by thinking, "Oh, this is how things are
1:25:48fitted in mortar you know, with mortars,
1:25:51etc., etc." No, I'm I'm doing it with my
1:25:53hands. The human
1:25:55the brain and the hand have the most
1:25:58connection of any part of our body
1:26:00because so much of our power as a
1:26:02species depended on our hands. We don't
1:26:04have much of that anymore, but
1:26:07learning by doing things with your hands
1:26:09or making things is how the brain is
1:26:12wired. So, you want to go with that
1:26:14grain. So, you want to do things. You
1:26:16want to make things. you want to be
1:26:17learning through action, not through
1:26:19just a lot of talk. And, you know,
1:26:23As you might know, the show is now
1:26:24sponsored by Airbnb. I can't count how
1:26:26many times Airbnbs have saved me when
1:26:28I'm traveling around the world. Whether
1:26:29it's, you know, recently when I went to
1:26:31the jungle in Bali, or whether it's when
1:26:32I'm staying here in the UK, or going to
1:26:34business in America. But, I can also
1:26:35think of so many times where I've stayed
1:26:37in a host's place on Airbnb, and I've
1:26:39been sat there wondering,
1:26:41"Could my place be an Airbnb as well?"
1:26:43And if it could be, how much could I
1:26:45earn? It turns out you could be sitting
1:26:48on an Airbnb goldmine without even
1:26:51knowing about it. Maybe you have a spare
1:26:53room in your house that friends stay
1:26:55from time to time. You could Airbnb that
1:26:57space and make a significant amount of
1:26:59money instead of letting it stay empty.
1:27:01That in-law, that guest house, that
1:27:03annex where your parents sometimes stay,
1:27:05you could Airbnb that and make some
1:27:07extra income for yourself. Whether you
1:27:09could just use some extra money to cover
1:27:11some bills, or for something a little
1:27:13bit more fun, your home might be worth a
1:27:16little bit more than you think. And you
1:27:18can find out the answer to that question
1:27:19by going to airbnb.co.uk/host.
1:27:23One of the things that um that you
1:27:25referenced at the start of this
1:27:26conversation, I think maybe even off
1:27:27camera, was in 2018 you had a stroke. Um
1:27:31and that changed your life in a very
1:27:32fundamental way.
1:27:35Can you tell me what what happened and
1:27:36how it's how it changed you?
1:27:39Well,
1:27:41it it was a
1:27:42terrifying experience.
1:27:44Um you know, I was in a coma.
1:27:47Uh I emerged from that and suddenly
1:27:49I'm somebody who's very physical. I I
1:27:52sports was huge part of my life. I would
1:27:54swim very long distances. I love
1:27:57mountain biking. I I was doing all kinds
1:28:00of um
1:28:01hiking. It was extremely important to
1:28:03me. I was every single day I did
1:28:05something physical to take my mind off
1:28:07things. Suddenly it's taken away from
1:28:09me. The left side of my body is
1:28:11basically paralyzed. I have no control
1:28:14over it. To this day, I still have
1:28:15problems with it.
1:28:17Can't swim.
1:28:19Can't mountain bike. Can't hike, right?
1:28:23I can't take my mind I can't think while
1:28:25I'm taking a hike. I can't type. For a
1:28:28writer, that's not much fun.
1:28:30I had to deal with crap that I've never
1:28:33had to deal with my life. I had a pretty
1:28:35easy time compared to this. I had to
1:28:37learn new life skills
1:28:40when I'm already 62 years old, you know?
1:28:43That isn't easy stuff. I don't want to
1:28:46whine or complain cuz people deal with
1:28:47worse stuff all the time. A lot of
1:28:49people get cancer, etc.
1:28:51But it's this Anybody who's had a stroke
1:28:54knows what I'm talking about. It's very
1:28:56hard because you can practice and
1:28:59practice and practice and practice hours
1:29:01and hours of therapy. I do over an hour
1:29:04of therapy every day, and you hardly
1:29:06notice any results.
1:29:08The frustration. You takes you 10
1:29:11minutes to tie your shoes. You can't
1:29:13button your your your thing you have to
1:29:15get other people to do that. It's hard
1:29:17to cut food.
1:29:19You have to be patient. You have to
1:29:21accept this. You have to find another
1:29:23way of loving your life, of accepting
1:29:26these things that you took for granted
1:29:28before. And I tell people, I look out my
1:29:31window now where I'm writing, and I see
1:29:33people walking their dog, and I put
1:29:35myself in their shoes and I go, "God,
1:29:38that must be so great just to walk your
1:29:40dog down the street. What a pleasurable
1:29:43thing." They don't realize it.
1:29:45You take it for granted now. Please
1:29:47don't take it for granted. Understand
1:29:49that the ability that you have now to
1:29:51run, to walk your dog, to swim, to type,
1:29:54to it can be taken away from you. And
1:29:57just appreciate your life for what you
1:29:58have because the things that I love were
1:30:01taken away from me, and I wish they
1:30:02hadn't been. So, I've had to adjust
1:30:04myself.
1:30:06You know, when something like that
1:30:07happens in life, when you
1:30:09when you are the the victim of an of a
1:30:13tragedy or instance or circumstance or
1:30:15something that happens, there's often a
1:30:18degree of unfairness surrounding it.
1:30:20When I when I read about that incident
1:30:22in 2018, I read that it was a bee sting
1:30:25that caused the clot that caused the
1:30:27stroke.
1:30:32Yeah, I know.
1:30:34It's actually, I think, a wasp. But if
1:30:36that wasp had been like
1:30:38moving wind had been a little different
1:30:40and it had moved this way instead of
1:30:42this way,
1:30:43may not have had a stroke.
1:30:45You know, but I can tell you this. So,
1:30:48um
1:30:49in May of that year, the the stroke was
1:30:51in August. In May, I'd finished The Laws
1:30:54of Human Nature, which took me 5 years.
1:30:56And when I finished that book,
1:30:58I felt like I was near death. I was so
1:31:00exhausted. I was so drained. You know,
1:31:03my wife was really worried about me
1:31:04because I I just looked really haggard.
1:31:07Slowly, I kind of recovered, but then
1:31:10in July, I went to New York
1:31:12and I forgot my blood pressure
1:31:14medication that I take. So, my blood
1:31:17pressure was starting to rise. And then
1:31:19I came back to LA and I walked in this
1:31:20park and the bee the wasp stung me here
1:31:24and my whole chest turned red and it was
1:31:26like the most unbearable feeling.
1:31:28So, I went to the hospital. They gave me
1:31:30this drug called prednisone to relieve
1:31:33the itching. Prednisone increases your
1:31:35blood pressure.
1:31:37And so, when I ended up having the
1:31:38stroke, the blood clot, it was right
1:31:40where the wasp sting was. So, the
1:31:42neurologist said,
1:31:43"Probably all this cholesterol was
1:31:45released from that drug
1:31:47the from that wasp sting here and that's
1:31:49where the blood clot occurred. Okay?"
1:31:52But there were all these other
1:31:54circumstances that kind of led to it, a
1:31:56kind of a perfect storm. And maybe
1:31:59if I hadn't had that wasp sting, it
1:32:02would have happened 4 months later under
1:32:04different circumstances and I would have
1:32:06died. Because what happened was
1:32:09I was driving my car when I got my
1:32:11stroke.
1:32:12My wife was in the other seat. She saw
1:32:15something really strange going on my
1:32:17face. I didn't notice it. She forced me
1:32:20to pull over the side of the road.
1:32:2390% of the time I'm alone. I'm swimming.
1:32:25I'm hiking. I'm driving.
1:32:27Could have happened 4 months from then.
1:32:30She wouldn't be there. I'd be dead right
1:32:32now.
1:32:33So, I can't really think in terms of oh,
1:32:36if that wasp had been diverted.
1:32:38It's It would be a good feeling, but
1:32:39it's too painful for me to imagine. I
1:32:41like to think of
1:32:43fortunately someone was there who saved
1:32:45my life. Because it could have very well
1:32:47happened 4 months from then because I my
1:32:50body was worn down.
1:32:52And something much worse could have
1:32:53happened.
1:32:55That That journey you described of
1:32:57having to rebuild and relearn and re-
1:33:00redesign your life. It's We've talked
1:33:02about the topic of power so much in this
1:33:04conversation.
1:33:05In that moment it sounds like your power
1:33:08to some degree had been taken from you.
1:33:11You know, um
1:33:13You You You learn like at least for me
1:33:17when I looked at people I looked at
1:33:18people differently after my stroke.
1:33:21I had more empathy for them. I'm
1:33:23normally an empathetic person, but I was
1:33:25looking at people who in co- in the
1:33:27pandemic
1:33:29who got long COVID, who were having
1:33:31strokes, or were having terrible
1:33:33circumstances. Or when I look at people
1:33:35who are disabled cuz I'm essentially
1:33:38disabled now.
1:33:40I understand them. I And also the other
1:33:42thing is when I look at people who are
1:33:44really poor,
1:33:47um
1:33:48who are struggling in life,
1:33:50they feel really dependent and helpless.
1:33:54I felt that physically. I don't feel
1:33:56that materially cuz I don't have that
1:33:57problem anymore, thank God. But I I have
1:34:00more empathy. I understand it not in an
1:34:02intellectual way, but in a visceral,
1:34:04physical way. That sensation of
1:34:07I don't know where my food's coming
1:34:09from. I don't know what's going to
1:34:10happen the next day. I'm weak. I'm
1:34:12dependent. I'm helpless. It's miserable.
1:34:16I kind of understood that feeling now on
1:34:18a on a different level.
1:34:20On a level that affected me personally,
1:34:22and it's a lot different than having it
1:34:24affect you in an intellectual way.
1:34:28The phases in that journey to where you
1:34:30are today. The first phase after the
1:34:32incident, you wake up. You realize that
1:34:35your your life has changed. What's
1:34:37what's going on in your psychology?
1:34:38What's going on in your mind? You talked
1:34:40about helplessness and
1:34:42depression.
1:34:43to be honest with you, what happened to
1:34:44me was
1:34:46right afterwards, there was a level of
1:34:48delusion in my mind. I kept thinking,
1:34:51"Well, in 3 months, I'll be back at it.
1:34:53I'll be In 6 months, I'll be swimming.
1:34:55In a year, I'll be hiking again." I
1:34:58deluded my I wasn't aware of how hard
1:35:01the process was.
1:35:02And then 6 months, 8 months, a year down
1:35:04the road, as I realized I was wrong,
1:35:07that's when the depression set in.
1:35:09That's when it really started hitting
1:35:10me. I thought I'd be back. Here I am, 4
1:35:13years on. I thought I'd be back to my
1:35:15life, but I'm not.
1:35:18You know? So, that's what was the
1:35:20hardest struggle was actually a year in
1:35:22there and going,
1:35:24there's a phase where you kind of
1:35:25plateau, where you're not really
1:35:26progressing anymore. That's the worst
1:35:29part of it. I'm progressing now again,
1:35:32because I have a great therapist, but
1:35:34I had to deal with really bad depression
1:35:37about a year, a year and a half in, when
1:35:39it started realize,
1:35:41"This is my life, man. I'm going to
1:35:42always have this funny arm that's bowing
1:35:45in. I'm going to be walking like this."
1:35:49I I I don't know what I never expected
1:35:51this in my life. So, I've had to deal
1:35:53with that and I've had to kind of
1:35:55find a way to not let it get me down, to
1:35:58find other pleasures and joys in life,
1:36:00etc., which I have. How how how did you
1:36:02find a way to not let it get you down?
1:36:04I'm thinking now about people that are
1:36:05listening to this that might be
1:36:07struggling with their own subjective
1:36:09struggles in life. They've been They've
1:36:11lost their job. They've They've
1:36:13You know, they've They have a
1:36:14disability, whatever it might be. What
1:36:15are What are the successful strategies
1:36:18you've deployed to try and remain
1:36:21I keep that peace of mind.
1:36:24Well, I don't know how much of it is
1:36:25applicable because I'm at a phase of
1:36:28life where I don't have material
1:36:31worries, you know? And I could have had
1:36:34a kind of stroke where my physical
1:36:37element would have been untouched, but
1:36:39my brain would have been damaged, which
1:36:40is another part.
1:36:42That would have been worse because I
1:36:44wouldn't have been able to write another
1:36:45book. And I have a very active mind. Um
1:36:49So, for me, being able to write another
1:36:52book is my salvation. So, when it's 3:00
1:36:56in the afternoon when I get down to
1:36:57writing,
1:36:58it's the happiest moment of my life. I
1:37:00feel at peace. I'm back to my work, and
1:37:03I love my work, and I love what I'm
1:37:05writing about. It's saved me a lot.
1:37:07I do meditation. I've been meditating
1:37:09now for about 12 years, I think, more
1:37:11more than that.
1:37:13Every morning, it's a ritual. I have to
1:37:16meditate. If I don't, something is
1:37:17wrong.
1:37:18And I've never missed a day, I can
1:37:20honestly say.
1:37:21And it it just calms me down. It just
1:37:25gives me a strength throughout the whole
1:37:27day. So, I get up
1:37:307:00, you know, the sun's usually
1:37:32shining cuz it's Los Angeles. And um
1:37:35I go, "It's the morning.
1:37:38I'm greeting the morning. I'm greeting
1:37:39the sun. It's like I'm in like I'm a you
1:37:43know, somebody 4,000 years ago in a
1:37:45tribe. Here's the sun. It's It's a
1:37:48miracle that there's even something like
1:37:50that. The birds are chirping. I'm
1:37:52looking at the ivy. The sky is blue.
1:37:55I just calm myself down.
1:37:58Intrusive negative thoughts start
1:38:00popping into my mind. You didn't do
1:38:02this. You have a podcast today at 2:00,
1:38:04Robert. You got to do this, that, and
1:38:05the other.
1:38:06I get rid of them. I go, "Calm down. Put
1:38:09that away." Ground yourself in the
1:38:11moment. It's helped immeasurably.
1:38:13The other thing is
1:38:15always keep in mind that there are
1:38:16people who have it worse than you. So, I
1:38:18don't want to feel sorry for I don't
1:38:20like the sense of feeling sorry for
1:38:22myself.
1:38:23In fact, sometimes I turn it around.
1:38:26And I look at that person walking the
1:38:27dog or jogging and I go, "I actually
1:38:29feel sorry for you because you're not
1:38:31aware of how precarious life is. You're
1:38:35not aware of how this could be taken
1:38:36away from you. You're not aware of how
1:38:38precious it is to just be alive and just
1:38:41to see the sky and the birds."
1:38:43So, I feel better than you in a way. I
1:38:46turned it around. I don't want to feel
1:38:47sorry for myself. You think there are
1:38:49people who have it worse. I read in the
1:38:51newspaper all the time, you know,
1:38:53cancer, you're in Ukraine, or I was
1:38:56dealing a lot with people in in Iran
1:38:58right now, what they're dealing with.
1:39:00I don't have to deal with that kind of
1:39:01crap, like being in Iran and dealing
1:39:03with that daily life. How How
1:39:05horrifying, you know? These are thoughts
1:39:08that take you out of the moment where
1:39:10you're feeling sorry for yourself and
1:39:11you're kind of grateful for certain
1:39:13things.
1:39:14So, those are some of the strategies
1:39:15I've had to kind of
1:39:17create for myself.
1:39:21I find it so um
1:39:22I find it so
1:39:25I guess powerful to hear those
1:39:26strategies because
1:39:28we all get caught up in
1:39:30our narrow perspective and our own
1:39:33subjective feelings that we're suffering
1:39:35or that life is against us and then that
1:39:37kind of torments us in many ways. As
1:39:39you've
1:39:40post-stroke in 2018,
1:39:42um is there anything else that you have
1:39:44learned about the nature of happiness
1:39:46from from that incident that we that you
1:39:49might not have known before that
1:39:50incident that I might not fully
1:39:52understand now?
1:39:54The things I heard you talk about are
1:39:55the importance of a sense of purpose,
1:39:57how perspective and gratitude are
1:40:00central to
1:40:02our feelings of happiness. But is there
1:40:04any other observations you've had that
1:40:06I'm just saying this from my own selfish
1:40:07perspective because I want to know.
1:40:09Well, first of all, I don't want to give
1:40:10the impression
1:40:12that I've solved everything because I'm
1:40:14not I'm a work in progress. I have
1:40:17moments where I get so frustrated
1:40:20and it's almost like I have Tourette's
1:40:22syndrome. I'm going to go
1:40:24Like I can't
1:40:26you know, I'm still 4 years in and my
1:40:27arm is still like this and I still can't
1:40:29brush my teeth the way I want. I get
1:40:31very frustrated. So
1:40:33I'm getting better, but it's still a
1:40:35work in progress. So I don't want to
1:40:36give the impression
1:40:37that I've somehow this I've mastered it
1:40:40because it has mastered me. I have a
1:40:42long way to go, but I'm getting a lot
1:40:44better, a lot better at it day-to-day.
1:40:47Um
1:40:49you know, I don't know. I think I've
1:40:50kind of touched on everything only in
1:40:53the sense of
1:40:54What about connection? You talked about
1:40:56your wife.
1:40:57Yes, she's helped me a lot.
1:41:00God bless her soul. She's had to take
1:41:02care of me, you know?
1:41:04And I was somebody who's always prided
1:41:06myself for being independent.
1:41:09I was crap. That was another thing that
1:41:10was taken away from me. I was traveling
1:41:12around the world doing book tours, going
1:41:15to book festivals, doing interviews,
1:41:18doing consulting in various different
1:41:19countries.
1:41:21I can still travel, but it it requires a
1:41:23lot more. So I lost my independence.
1:41:26I have to have somebody help me with
1:41:28food every single day. I need things
1:41:31being done for me.
1:41:33And I feel terrible that you know, she's
1:41:36been put in that position. But, she's
1:41:38been very gracious about it, and she
1:41:40understands she has a lot of empathy cuz
1:41:42she knows
1:41:43what I've lost. So, having somebody
1:41:46in your life, if I were alone, I
1:41:48couldn't deal with it, man. I wouldn't
1:41:49have been able to deal with it.
1:41:51It just would have been too much for me.
1:41:53Would have been too depressing.
1:41:55That depression that socks you after a
1:41:57year would have leveled me. It's just I
1:41:59couldn't have made it.
1:42:01So, that's an incredibly important
1:42:03aspect.
1:42:04And just appreciating
1:42:06the little things in life that I just
1:42:10you know, it's a cliché, and I hate
1:42:11saying clichés,
1:42:13but um
1:42:15you know, I have that feeling almost
1:42:16every day where I'm looking at somebody
1:42:18going
1:42:19man, that must be I'm like riding my
1:42:21bike, and I'm seeing somebody just
1:42:23sitting in a park reading a book on a
1:42:25bench, and I'm going
1:42:26God, that is so much fun just to be able
1:42:28to do that. I can't do that anymore, but
1:42:30I put myself in their body. The little
1:42:32things in life that you take for granted
1:42:35are so filled with so much happiness and
1:42:37joy that you're not thinking about. If
1:42:39that person sitting on a bench reading
1:42:41that book only realized what this person
1:42:44riding by thinks, maybe they wouldn't
1:42:46take it for granted. So, so many those
1:42:49little things that you don't think about
1:42:52have incredible importance, at least to
1:42:54me, having lost them.
1:42:57So, I don't know if I'm
1:42:59I wish I had something better, but
1:43:01that's
1:43:02I can only come from my own experience.
1:43:04I can't make it up.
1:43:06Well, your books for tend to focus on
1:43:08the nature of the human condition.
1:43:10What what what how we are as humans for
1:43:12better or for worse.
1:43:14And it was it was interesting cuz as you
1:43:15were talking over several topics, when
1:43:17you're talking about seduction and the
1:43:1848 Laws of Power and Mastery,
1:43:22there's a part of me that's, you know,
1:43:25that started to feel a little bit, I
1:43:27don't know, feel the darkness that is
1:43:29innate within humans a bit a bit too
1:43:30much, maybe.
1:43:32That we're a little bit too contrived
1:43:34and manipulative and conniving and
1:43:37whatever else. And I do I was thinking,
1:43:39do I really like humans? You know, I'm
1:43:41one of them.
1:43:42I'm very conscious of trying to separate
1:43:44myself. I hear people doing interviews
1:43:46when they're talking about society and I
1:43:47always think, you are society.
1:43:49I am human. I am I I'm all of the things
1:43:51you've described in many many ways.
1:43:53But has your journey of learning about
1:43:54humans and human nature made you
1:43:57personally more loving towards humans,
1:44:01more optimistic about the human race, or
1:44:03has it made you the
1:44:05the opposite? Honestly. Well, it's made
1:44:07me more loving, but it hasn't made me
1:44:09more optimistic.
1:44:11Okay. Um
1:44:13you know, there's so many things that
1:44:15are are
1:44:16seem to be going awry in the world
1:44:18today.
1:44:19Now, I happen to be um
1:44:22the form of meditation I do is Zen
1:44:24meditation.
1:44:25And in Zen meditation, there's this idea
1:44:28of what's called the Tathagata, which
1:44:30means it was a it was another name for
1:44:32Buddha, and it means things as they are.
1:44:36And one thing you meditate is
1:44:39the world isn't good or bad or ugly or
1:44:42evil or unjust, it just is. Things just
1:44:45are. This is just the way the world is.
1:44:48This is the karmic chain, the wheel of
1:44:50Dharma, that's been going on for
1:44:51thousands of years. It just is. It's
1:44:55just the state of affairs.
1:44:57It's your discriminating your mind. It's
1:44:59your mind that creates all of these
1:45:01things. Let go of that and you can
1:45:03connect to the way the world is without
1:45:05judging it and it becomes this very
1:45:07beautiful place.
1:45:08And so,
1:45:10I a part of me wants to think of this is
1:45:12just the way things are,
1:45:14but a part of me goes,
1:45:16this isn't good the way things are and
1:45:18and I hope they're changed.
1:45:20So, knowing human nature and knowing how
1:45:22human nature tends to twist things, how
1:45:25whenever we invent a new piece of
1:45:27technology, it could be the telephone,
1:45:30it could be the television, it could be
1:45:32the internet, it could be
1:45:33cryptocurrency,
1:45:35or it could be,
1:45:36you know,
1:45:37AI,
1:45:39it tends to twist and darken and degrade
1:45:42and and and pervert anything that was
1:45:44once maybe beautiful or interesting.
1:45:47It makes me worried about the future.
1:45:50So, there I turn pessimistic and I'm
1:45:52worried, but then
1:45:54I always think that there's hope with
1:45:56young people and here I'm spouting
1:45:57another cliché. Damn, I'm going to shoot
1:45:59myself after this interview. But,
1:46:02I feel like when I was young, I was
1:46:04angry about things. I didn't like the
1:46:06way the world was. It was
1:46:07Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher and
1:46:10yuppies and ugly, you know, values I
1:46:13didn't have and I I thought there was
1:46:15something wrong in the world. I was
1:46:16angry and I wanted to change it.
1:46:18Young people are still like that. And I
1:46:20think a lot of young people, Gen Z or
1:46:23whatever the next one is, whatever they
1:46:24call them, I don't know yet. Um,
1:46:27they're growing up in a world that isn't
1:46:29healthy, that isn't right. And when
1:46:32you're young, you have all these energy,
1:46:34all this physicality,
1:46:36and you you don't like it, you don't
1:46:38feel comfortable in it. And I know a lot
1:46:40of young people don't feel comfortable.
1:46:42And at some point they're going to
1:46:43rebel.
1:46:44And they're going to say, "I'm tired of
1:46:46all this virtuality. I want something
1:46:49real.
1:46:50I want some I want real experiences."
1:46:53That spirit of rebellion that I see
1:46:56seeds of and signs of gives me hope. And
1:46:59I hope that it continues. Because I
1:47:01remember once I had a dream, probably
1:47:03the most memorable dream I ever had.
1:47:05It was maybe about 15 years ago or so,
1:47:08and I dreamt that I was there in the
1:47:09year 2072
1:47:11or something like that. I was walking
1:47:13around the year 2072. It was the streets
1:47:15of New York. I was going, "Wow,
1:47:18everybody looks so happy.
1:47:20Humans finally figured out how to
1:47:22do well in this world. They figured out
1:47:24how to what matters. There's hope in
1:47:26this world. That was my moment in that
1:47:28dream. This has always sort of stuck
1:47:30with me. Maybe that will happen. Maybe
1:47:33it won't. I don't know. I'm not
1:47:35Nostradamus. But,
1:47:37you know, so this I struggle with that.
1:47:39I struggle with part of me is
1:47:42pessimistic and part of me seeks
1:47:44seeds of hope, particularly in young
1:47:46people, and I really, really, really
1:47:48wish they figured out because my
1:47:51generation, generations before, we've
1:47:53kind of screwed this world over. Things
1:47:55aren't good right now. And I'm hoping
1:47:57that spirit of rebellion, that young
1:47:59energy, will kind of come and and kick
1:48:02the apple cart and say, "Screw all this.
1:48:04We want a different world."
1:48:08We have a closing tradition on this
1:48:09podcast where the last guest asks a
1:48:10question for the next guest, not knowing
1:48:12who they're going to ask it for.
1:48:14Um and the question that's been left for
1:48:15you to answer is,
1:48:18"In adult life,
1:48:20when
1:48:22were you most happy and why?"
1:48:26And then brackets it says, "Are you this
1:48:29way now? And if not, why?"
1:48:37Well,
1:48:39I have to say the happiest moment of my
1:48:41life
1:48:43came at that turning point when I was 38
1:48:46or so,
1:48:47and I was given the opportunity to write
1:48:48the 48 Laws of Power,
1:48:51and it came out,
1:48:53and my life had changed. And so, the
1:48:56contrast
1:48:58from being
1:49:00in a in a small apartment,
1:49:02um rather poor, rather desperate, where
1:49:06people were beginning to worry about me,
1:49:09and suddenly
1:49:10things were clicking together, and I was
1:49:12having fun, and I was having all these
1:49:14adventures, and I had reasonable lot of
1:49:16money. The shift was so radical and so
1:49:19dramatic that it was extremely exciting,
1:49:22you know, and it was almost like a drug
1:49:24high. It was pretty damn intoxicating.
1:49:28Um
1:49:29I don't have that now because it's 25
1:49:32years ago
1:49:33and I'm kind of still riding off of that
1:49:35and the and the high has worn off.
1:49:38But I can remember in my body
1:49:42how depressed I was and that feeling and
1:49:46I never lose it. I'm very grateful for
1:49:48what I have because I know
1:49:50it could have turned out very
1:49:52differently.
1:49:53So, I still feel that initial happiness
1:49:56cuz I know
1:49:58if you have success when you're 24,
1:50:00you're not ready for it. You don't
1:50:02realize how evanescent it could be, how
1:50:03it can disappear and how important it
1:50:05is.
1:50:06I never had that cuz I struggled for so
1:50:08long
1:50:09and um so many bad jobs. So,
1:50:13the happiness the euphoria isn't the
1:50:16same. It's not the same intensity. But
1:50:18I'm still riding on that wave because I
1:50:20know where I was before it happened and
1:50:25it's been an amazing journey.
1:50:27I you know, my wife has been there for
1:50:29it with because can you believe that you
1:50:32were having dinner with Stevie Wonder?
1:50:35When you were 12 years old, you told me
1:50:36Robert that that was the first album you
1:50:38ever bought was Innervisions.
1:50:41And what would you told yourself when
1:50:43you were 12 years old that this is
1:50:44what's happening? Whoa, I would have I
1:50:46would have flipped out.
1:50:48It's been an amazing journey. I can't I
1:50:50can't complain.
1:50:51My whining complaint card was taken away
1:50:54from me in 1998 when I published that
1:50:56book and so I'm still feeling I'm still
1:50:58feeling the
1:51:00the last vestiges of that euphoria from
1:51:03back then.
1:51:06Robert, thank you.
1:51:07Thank you so much. I've um I've been a
1:51:09tremendous fan of your work for what
1:51:12feels like forever in my life and um um
1:51:15your your wisdom, your your willingness
1:51:18to confront difficult top subject matter
1:51:20that a lot of people would avoid because
1:51:22there is darkness interlaced in a lot of
1:51:24the subject matter that you've written
1:51:25about in some of your books, but it is
1:51:26very
1:51:27it's very human, important, as you say,
1:51:30objectively neutral darkness that just
1:51:32is,
1:51:33um and for you to confront that over and
1:51:35over again in your work is is it makes
1:51:37it some of the most important work I
1:51:39think anyone could do because it's the
1:51:40work that a lot of us avoid, but your
1:51:42vulnerability and openness today as well
1:51:43have been like a shot at my ass in terms
1:51:46of gratitude, um and the importance of
1:51:49perception,
1:51:50um as it relates to our happiness and
1:51:52our sense of a sense of self. So, thank
1:51:54you so much. I've really enjoyed this
1:51:55conversation more than I could express
1:51:56in words. Thank you so much, Steven. It
1:51:58was It was a great interview. I was
1:51:59telling Chimamanda that uh
1:52:02I've done thousands of these podcasts,
1:52:05and I know
1:52:06I can tell I've done my 10,000 hours. I
1:52:08can tell
1:52:10a great interviewer from a mediocre
1:52:12interviewer, and you're in that elite
1:52:13category because you ask really great
1:52:15questions and you're a great listener,
1:52:17and it's been really fun. So, thank you
1:52:19so much. I really appreciate the
1:52:20opportunity. Means a lot to me. Thank
1:52:22you, Robert. Okay. You're welcome.
1:52:27Quick one. As you guys know, we're lucky
1:52:28enough to have Bluejeans as a sponsor
1:52:30and supporter of this podcast. For
1:52:31anyone that doesn't know, Bluejeans is
1:52:33an online video conferencing tool that
1:52:34allows you to have slick, fast, good
1:52:37quality online meetings without any of
1:52:39those glitches that you'd normally find
1:52:41with other meeting online providers. You
1:52:43know the ones I'm talking about. And
1:52:45they have a new feature called Bluejeans
1:52:46Basic, which I wanted to tell you about.
1:52:48Bluejeans Basic is essentially a free
1:52:50version of their top quality video
1:52:51conferencing, and that means that you
1:52:53get immersive video experiences, you get
1:52:55that super high quality, super easy, and
1:52:57zero fuss experience. And apart from
1:53:00zero time limits on meetings and calls,
1:53:02it also comes with high fidelity audio
1:53:04and video, including Dolby Voice. They
1:53:06also have expertise great security, so
1:53:08you can collaborate with confidence.
1:53:10It's so smooth that it's quite literally
1:53:12changed the game for myself and my team
1:53:14without compromising quality at all. So,
1:53:16if you'd like to check them out, search
1:53:19bluejeans.com and let me know how you
1:53:21get on. Over the last couple of how
1:53:23long, maybe 4 months, I've been changing
1:53:26my diet, shall I say. Many of you who've
1:53:29really been paying attention to this to
1:53:30this podcast will know why. I've sat
1:53:32here with some incredible health
1:53:33experts. And one of the things that's
1:53:34really come through for me, which has
1:53:35caused the big change in my life, is the
1:53:37need for us to have these superfoods,
1:53:40these green foods, these vegetables, and
1:53:42then
1:53:44a company I love so much, a company I'm
1:53:46an investor in, and then a company that
1:53:47sponsors this podcast and that I'm on
1:53:48the board of,
1:53:50recently announced a new product, which
1:53:52absolutely spoke to exactly where I was
1:53:54in my life, and that is Huel. And they
1:53:56announced Daily Greens. Daily Greens is
1:53:59a product that contains 91 superfoods,
1:54:02nutrients, and plant-based ingredients,
1:54:05which helps me meet that dietary
1:54:06requirement with the convenience that
1:54:08Huel always offers.
1:54:10Unfortunately, it's only currently
1:54:12available in the US, but I hope, I pray,
1:54:15that it'll be with you guys in the UK,
1:54:16too. So, if you're in the US, check it
1:54:17out. It's an incredible product. I've
1:54:19been having it here in LA for the last
1:54:20couple of weeks,
1:54:21and it's a game-changer.

About this transcript

This page contains the full transcript of Robert Greene: How To Seduce Anyone, Build Confidence & Become Powerful | E232 by The Diary Of A CEO, generated from the public captions YouTube serves with the video. The transcript has 20,721 words across 3,260 segments, with the original timestamps preserved so you can click any line to jump to that moment in the embedded player.

What you can do with it

Use the transcript to take notes, quote the speaker, build a study guide, generate a summary with ChatGPT or Claude via the YouTube Summary tool, or export it as a timed subtitle file with YouTube to SRT. You can also re-open it in the transcriber to translate the transcript into 100+ languages.

Free YouTube transcript tool

YouTube2Text is a free YouTube transcript generator — no signup, no daily limit. Paste any YouTube link and get the full transcript instantly, with timestamps, click-to-jump, translation to 100+ languages, AI prompts for ChatGPT, Claude, and Gemini, and exports to TXT, SRT, VTT, or Markdown.