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Robert Greene: How To Seduce Anyone, Become Powerful & Irreplaceable — Transcript

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0:00The source of your power, I don't care
0:02who you are or wherever you grew up, is
0:04being different from other people. If
0:06you have a skill [music] that makes you
0:07different and unique, then you have
0:09power because you can't be replaced.
0:11Making it that people depend on you is
0:13an extremely [music] powerful position
0:15to be in. The question is, how do you
0:17get into that position?
0:18>> Does power look differently for men
0:20versus [music] women?
0:21>> Women have skills that I think make them
0:24in some ways superior [music] in the
0:26game of power. The art of seduction, I
0:28can tell you very simply, is when I
0:30leave you and you're thinking about me,
0:32I have seduced you. [music] The weakness
0:34that we all have is that we don't have
0:36enough pleasure and things that raise us
0:38out [music] of the finalities of
0:40everyday life. If you're a man or a
0:41woman and you know how to give people a
0:44taste of that pleasure and [music] get
0:45them eating out of your hand and running
0:47after you, you are a master seducer or
0:49seductress. Words are the woman's
0:51weakness. [music] For men, it's
0:52appearances. It's visuals. For women, a
0:54lot of it revolves around ideas and
0:56thoughts and fantasies.
0:58>> Is there a way for someone to cultivate
1:00this magnetic seductive aura?
1:03>> There's [music] one path that is the
1:04most powerful of all that is
1:07>> Hello everyone and welcome back to
1:09today's episode. We have a very special
1:12guest joining us today. Someone that I
1:15have been following for a very long
1:17time. His name is Robert Green. He's one
1:20of the most influential authors of our
1:22time. known for his best-selling books,
1:25The 48 Laws of Power, The Art of
1:27Seduction, and The Laws of Human Nature,
1:30amongst many others. Robert, thank you
1:32so much for being here today and taking
1:35the time.
1:36>> My pleasure, Francesca. I'm very
1:38excited.
1:39>> I'm super excited as well. And as I
1:41mentioned before, one of your
1:42bestselling books is The 48 Laws of
1:45Power, which by the way, I heard it was
1:48banned in prisons. Is that true?
1:52in some prisons in the United States,
1:54most notably like um Utah, Pennsylvania,
1:57and I believe Texas.
2:00>> Yeah.
2:00>> What What is that about? Why?
2:04>> Well, um I get um emails from prisoners
2:07who explain to me what it's about. And
2:10essentially in prison, they try and
2:13curate your experience. They don't want
2:15any friction. They don't want any
2:16confrontation. They want to completely
2:18control you. Right? M
2:19>> and this is a book that can tell you how
2:23power operates, how people can try to
2:26manipulate you. And so if you're a
2:28prisoner, if you can imagine it isn't I'
2:31look, I've never been in prison, but I
2:33can imagine it's a very [snorts]
2:35frightening experience, right? You're
2:37surrounded by, if you're a man, you're
2:39surrounded by all these aggressive,
2:41threatening people and um you just don't
2:45know where you are. And then you're also
2:46dealing with the prison system which can
2:48be very intimidating. So it's a book
2:50that teaches you how to handle [snorts]
2:53really powerful situations like that.
2:56And people in who run prisons don't want
2:59their prisoners having that kind of
3:01knowledge. So that's basically why it's
3:03banned.
3:04>> Wow. That just goes to show how powerful
3:08this book is. So amazing. And I want to
3:12start by asking you what is power? like
3:15what does it mean to be a powerful
3:17person?
3:18>> You know, in our life um we can't
3:21control everything, right? You don't
3:24control who your parents are, where you
3:27were born into, the time that you live
3:29in. And so many circumstances that occur
3:32in your life are things that are are
3:33random. They're just circumstances you
3:35have no control over. Okay? But the
3:38sense for a human being to have no
3:42control over your life or anything
3:44around you, no control over your
3:47children, over your spouse, over your
3:50colleagues at work, over your boss is
3:53terrible. It's a terrifying feeling and
3:56we don't like it. So, we try to gain
3:58some kind of power, some kind of
4:00control. But we're social animals,
4:03right?
4:04>> And and people are very tricky. I don't
4:07know if you know if you've experienced
4:08how tricky people are. You probably
4:10have. They don't tell you what they're
4:12thinking. They wear these masks. They're
4:15very elusive. They smile and they say,
4:17"Oh, I love your podcast, Francesca."
4:20But deep down they don't feel that at
4:21all. Right? People are very tricky.
4:23They're very political. Okay? So power
4:26is the ability to understand the social
4:30elements of life, the political
4:33elements, the egos that people have. so
4:36that you can navigate this very tricky
4:39environment and not make so many
4:42terrible mistakes that you end up having
4:44trouble, you know, causing yourself all
4:46sorts of problems. So, you can gain a
4:49little degree of control over yourself,
4:53over your own emotions, over your own
4:55irrationality,
4:57and over the people around you. Not that
4:59you are going to be a master
5:00manipulator, but that you can see
5:03through the manipulations that other
5:05people are working on you and have more
5:07of a control over everything that's
5:09going on around you. To me, that is
5:11power.
5:13>> And I can't wait to talk about all the
5:15things you mentioned, including
5:17manipulation and how to spot it.
5:20>> Um, but first of all, I want to ask,
5:23what are some signs that someone is
5:25powerful? that you've met someone who's
5:27powerful.
5:31>> Well, um that's a very good question. Um
5:36you know, it's hard to gauge how
5:39powerful a person is personally in their
5:42in their um presence. Now, I know for
5:45instance, I did a book with 50 Cent
5:48called the 50th law. And in his
5:50presence, you can sense that this guy
5:52has power, right? But the way you judge
5:56a person's power is not their personal
5:59presence but by their actions by the
6:02results of what of things that they can
6:04get done. Now a lot of that has to do
6:07with your appearance how you appear to
6:09people your charisma how you come across
6:12but also a lot of it so sometimes
6:15somebody can appear to be very powerful.
6:17I don't know if you've had this
6:18experience, Francesca, but you'll be at
6:20work and you have a boss who appears to
6:25be very powerful, very strong, very
6:27aggressive, but actually their actions
6:30aren't effective. They don't get things
6:31done well. People don't like them. Okay?
6:35So, you have to learn to judge people by
6:38their actions, by the results of what
6:40they do. And that's what reveals whether
6:42a person is powerful or not. Sometimes
6:45people seem powerful, but they're
6:47actually very weak and insecure inside.
6:50So, I like to look at the results. I
6:52like to see, oh, that company is doing
6:55really well. It's making a lot of money.
6:57Oh, that political figure is solid in
7:00their his or her power. Or that artist
7:03is creating things that are lasting that
7:06are very popular and successful. I like
7:08to look at the results and not get so
7:10bewitched by people's personal
7:13appearance.
7:15It reminds me of a study I read which
7:18was talking about power and influence
7:21and how it's made up of, you know,
7:24charisma and the personal element you
7:26mentioned and appearance but also
7:28competence and if competence is lacking
7:31which is what you were talking about
7:34then you know the appearance and
7:36everything else doesn't matter at the
7:37end of the day. So it was competence
7:39that was most important the skills and
7:42yeah so super interesting
7:45>> and you know you wrote about 48 laws but
7:49are there some laws that you think are
7:52most important?
7:57Well, everything depends on you as an
7:59individual, you know. So, um, some
8:02people have certain strengths, some
8:04people have certain character traits
8:06that lend themselves to a law or that
8:08they're not good at that they should be
8:10good at. So, one of the laws I think is
8:12very important is interaction with
8:15boldness.
8:17And what that means is when you begin a
8:20project, when you enter into a
8:22relationship, when you enter into any
8:24kind of business um environment,
8:27the way you begin, the way you will
8:29present yourself, if it's bold, if
8:31you're confident, if you think this
8:33project is going to be extremely
8:35successful, it's going to do well. It
8:37infects other people that get drawn into
8:40it. And because you appear confident, it
8:43makes it seem that you know what you're
8:45doing, that you have that competence
8:46that you mentioned, right? But you've
8:49you've we've all experienced this. If
8:51you're around somebody who's timid,
8:53who's insecure, who's anxious in a
8:56social situation, it makes you timid and
8:59anxious, right? But if you're around
9:01somebody powerful, you get caught up in
9:03it. So having that kind of boldness,
9:07people are in this world today,
9:08particularly now in 2026,
9:12people are too timid. They're so afraid.
9:15They're so afraid of being different
9:16from other people. They're so cowardly,
9:19right? They want to fit in. And I'm
9:21telling you, your boldness, your abil,
9:23you're you're not afraid to be
9:25different. You're not afraid to take
9:26risks is what will translate into power.
9:30That's an very very important one. And
9:32there are others. It depends on the
9:33circumstances. So, um I have a law, I
9:37can't remember the exact title. It's
9:38about creating dependence.
9:41So,
9:43if you're trying to have some power in
9:46this world, if you have a skill that
9:49nobody else has, if you have a an
9:51ability that makes you different and
9:53unique, then you have power because you
9:56can't be replaced. But if you're working
9:58in an office or in some environment like
10:01that and you're just like everybody
10:04else, you have you don't have that kind
10:06of irreplaceable quality. When you reach
10:09the age of 28, 29 or 30, they're going
10:12to find somebody younger who they can
10:14pay less to replace you. So not being
10:18replaceable, making it that people
10:20depend on you. you're the only person
10:22that can get something done is an
10:24extremely extremely powerful position to
10:27be in. Of course, the question is how do
10:29you get into that position? And that's
10:31what I talk about in the chapter. So,
10:33you have to kind of read that chapter
10:34and I explain how you can accomplish
10:36that.
10:38>> Can I ask you how can you accomplish
10:40that?
10:44[laughter]
10:46>> Well, um
10:48there are several ways you do that. So
10:51um you have to think first of all in
10:55this particular business that you're in
10:57whatever it is right what is that skill
11:01that I can do that nobody else can do
11:04right okay so they're going to be other
11:06people around you and you're all going
11:08to basically have the same kind of
11:10training the same background that makes
11:12you kind of similar right what is it
11:15that can make you stand out what is the
11:16thing that you have the skill the power
11:19the quality it can be personal, it could
11:21be technical, that is different from
11:23everybody else. And then you lean on
11:25that skill and you make it very strong
11:28and you make it clear to the people
11:30working in your business or wherever you
11:33are that to get rid of you is going to
11:37be very very costly. Okay? So it depends
11:42on the job that you're in. I can't say
11:44it a general strategy that'll work
11:47everywhere. But just focus on this one
11:50thing.
11:51If they want to fire me, they're going
11:54to pay a terrible price because they
11:56won't find anybody else that'll be able
11:58to do what I can do. So, you need to
12:01find those things that you can do that
12:03nobody else can do that they're not
12:05going to it's going to be very very um
12:09impactful and very painful for them to
12:12fire you whatever that will be in your
12:14particular situation. Also, having a lot
12:18of allies within your company. So, you
12:22have you know you just you just don't
12:24rely on one person in in the business.
12:27You just don't have like one like a boss
12:29who supports you. You have in the
12:32different departments or different areas
12:34of your job. You have three or four
12:36people that like you that are allied
12:38with you. And so to get rid of you is
12:41also going to cause friction in the
12:43company and a lot of other people are
12:44going to be upset. I mean, Franchesca, I
12:47could go into dozens of strategies on
12:49that, but that should give you a kind of
12:51idea. But I recommend reading that
12:53chapter.
12:54>> Yeah, absolutely. And I encourage my
12:56listeners also to do that. And you
12:59mentioned before, you know, that
13:01especially in today's day and age, 2026,
13:05people are more timid. I wanted to ask
13:08you why. Why is that?
13:14>> Well, you know, I don't mean to judge it
13:16so much because there are reasons for
13:18these things. And you know um and I
13:22didn't grow up in this world that you
13:25know in the internet age. I'm much older
13:27than that. So um if I grow up now, if I
13:32had been born in the '9s or the 2000s, I
13:35would probably be the same as other
13:36people. It's very understandable. But a
13:40lot of it has to do with social media to
13:42be quite frank. I mean there are many
13:44causes for it. So, I don't mean to make
13:46it simple, but one of the main causes is
13:49social media because you become so hyper
13:54aware of what other people are doing
13:56around you, right? And you're so afraid
13:59of being different, you're feeling like
14:02if if you're different from the group,
14:04people are going to judge you because
14:07you're so aware of what everybody else
14:09is doing. Back when I was growing up,
14:12people only only my friends knew what I
14:15was up to and I was only had
14:17interactions with them, right? And so to
14:20be different when I was growing up to be
14:23a non-conformist was a lot easier and
14:26less painful.
14:28But nowadays, you want to fit in. You
14:31want to have the same tastes as other
14:33people. You want to have, you know,
14:35you're all interested in the same memes.
14:37you you're you focus on the same things
14:40on social media and it gives incredible
14:43pressure for you to conform and to be
14:45like other people and to be different.
14:49It seems seems painful seems you know
14:51something you don't want. The other
14:53thing is this world has become much more
14:57chaotic and difficult than it was in my
15:00day. Right? There were so many things
15:03that have intervened in the last 15 20
15:05years that can make people very timid
15:08and very conservative. So you had the
15:11crash in 2008
15:13then you had uh co right and then you
15:18have the all the disturbances the
15:20financial things that are going on these
15:22days. It's very very chaotic, difficult
15:25world that people particularly who are
15:27young are having to navigate and it's
15:29very stressful and it's very dangerous.
15:32So you naturally when when humans are
15:35faced with chaotic situations,
15:38they become conservative. They want to
15:40try and control everything. And so
15:44there's a lot less openness to being
15:46different, to being a non-conformist.
15:49But I tell people, so I wrote a book
15:52called Mastery. I don't know if you're
15:54familiar with the book Mastery.
15:55>> Yeah.
15:56>> But um
15:58the source of your power in life, I
16:01don't care who you are or wherever you
16:03grew up or how old you are, the source
16:05of your power is being different from
16:07other people, it's your uniqueness.
16:10If you look at at people in music or in
16:14film or in politics that are powerful,
16:18there is nobody else like them. They are
16:20unique. They're one of a kind. And you,
16:23every single person out there in your
16:25audience has that quality. You all have
16:27something unique about who you are. And
16:30when you lean into that, when you're
16:32strong on that, you're going to stand
16:34out from others and you're going to be
16:35powerful. But if you're so afraid and
16:38you're so wanting to be like other
16:40people and you're so worried about
16:42people's judgments and criticisms, then
16:45you're going to have a very it's going
16:46to be very tough for you in life.
16:48[snorts]
16:50>> Absolutely. That makes so much sense.
16:52And I actually wanted to ask you, how do
16:55you go about finding that uniqueness and
16:59that source of power within? Do you have
17:01any practical strategies?
17:05Well, you're asking all the tough
17:07questions. I spend like hours trying to
17:10answer that. It's all right. It's all
17:12right.
17:12>> Well,
17:14in in mastery, I I have a chapter on
17:17that. The first chapter, it's called
17:19discover your life's task. And I don't
17:23mean to brag or anything, but to me,
17:24it's the most important thing I've ever
17:26written. Because if you don't understand
17:30who you are as an individual, of what
17:33makes you unique, of what could possibly
17:35be the source of your success in life,
17:39you're going to have a very hard time,
17:41right? So, you have to know who you are.
17:43You have to figure out the puzzle that
17:45you represent. Okay? So, the image that
17:50I try and tell people is you your DNA
17:54that you have as an individual is
17:56unique. It's not like anybody else in
17:59the past, in the present or in the
18:01future. Okay? So, you are marked right
18:04there as an individual. You are
18:06completely unique the way your brain is
18:08wired. All right? And then you have your
18:12parents who are also have their own
18:14uniqueness and they raised you. And so,
18:17you're raised like nobody else in the
18:19world. And then you have friends and
18:20experiences when you're three, four,
18:22five years old that are unlike
18:24experiences of anybody else.
18:27All of that stamps you as somebody
18:29completely different, completely unique.
18:32Okay? And when you're a child, when
18:34you're three years old, four years old,
18:36you kind of have a sense of that. You
18:38don't have to. It's not about words or
18:40anything that you can naturally think.
18:42It's an inclination. It's an impulse.
18:44It's an intuition. I'm attracted to
18:47sports. I'm attracted to physical
18:49activity. I like patterns and music. I'm
18:53interested in words and language. I like
18:56to fix things. I'm good with my hands. I
18:58have mechanical skills. I'm really good
19:00with people. I have social skills.
19:03There's something when you're very young
19:05that you're attracted to that makes that
19:07that is very powerful, right? It has
19:10nothing to do with thinking or words.
19:12It's something preverbal. You're drawn
19:14to it. Okay?
19:17And then when you get older, you stop
19:19hearing that voice. You stop you you
19:22lose contact with what makes you so
19:24different. And you start listening to
19:26other people. You listen to your parents
19:28who tell you you need to get a job and
19:29make a lot of money. You listen to your
19:31friends who tell you what's cool. Listen
19:33to teachers. You listen to to bosses.
19:36And you lose complete contact with that
19:39source of what makes you different from
19:41everybody else. And in mastery, I talk
19:44about all these very successful, famous
19:46people, some of whom I interviewed for
19:48the book. And in each case, you can go
19:52back to that moment when they were four
19:53or five years old and something happened
19:55where they go, "Wow, I'm so excited by
19:59this." Right? It could be Martha Graham,
20:01the great um dancer, the great
20:03choreographer, and how she just got
20:06entranced by physical movement when she
20:08was like eight years old, or Steve Jobs
20:12passing by a window where there were all
20:14these electronic things in there, and
20:16he's going, "Wow, how beautiful it is.
20:17I'd love to design those things." right?
20:20Or Albert Einstein getting a compass
20:23when he was four years old and marveling
20:25at the fact that something invisible was
20:28moving the needle on the compass. When
20:30you're a child, these things are very
20:32obvious. You're so drawn to them. You
20:35have to go back and you have to figure
20:37out what it is that you are so excited
20:39about that that had that kind of power
20:42over you when you were very young. It's
20:45very complicated, Francesca. So, if
20:48you're 19,
20:50it's very it's it's very easy and much
20:52easier to go through this process and
20:54it's very important that you do. By the
20:57time you're 30 and you haven't thought
21:00about it, it gets harder. If you're 40
21:02or 50, it's almost too late. So, it's
21:05better to begin figuring this out,
21:07figuring out who you are, figuring out
21:09what you love and what you're excited
21:11about. You know, if you love something,
21:13if you're interested in a subject, you
21:16learn and you absorb information much
21:19more quickly, much faster, right? Than
21:21if you're decide to become a lawyer
21:24because your parents tell you that
21:25that's how you can make a lot of money,
21:27but you're not really interested. You're
21:29not really engaged. You're not going to
21:32learn at such a fast rate that as
21:34opposed to, wow, I love music and this
21:36absorbs me. You're going to learn
21:38quickly. you're going to learn in two
21:39years what would take somebody five or
21:42six years to learn because they're not
21:43interested in it. So it's extremely
21:46important process to go through and a
21:50lot of people come to me with this
21:51problem. They go Robert I can't figure
21:52out what my life's task is
21:55and we have to go through a process that
21:58I could explain. That's that's that's
22:00quite involved. But it's a matter of
22:03digging into your past and digging into
22:04who you are and the kinds of things that
22:07you love and the kinds of things that
22:08you hate. I don't know if that answers
22:11your question. I went kind of
22:13>> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And it's such a
22:16fascinating topic. I'd love to learn
22:18more about it. I think
22:20>> you know what you mentioned about,
22:22>> you know, going back to your childhood
22:24is so so valuable and it's true for me
22:27as well. And
22:29>> well, tell me about yourself. What was
22:30that about yourself?
22:32>> Well, first of all, I really liked um
22:35asking questions. I've always been
22:37really curious and really fascinated by
22:40human psychology.
22:42And you know, I thought, okay, maybe
22:44I'll be a psychologist and you know,
22:45maybe I'll go down that path. But that
22:48was too limiting for me. And it wasn't
22:50using other skills because I also liked
22:52being on stage and acting. And so I kind
22:55of found this perfect path for myself
22:58where all these things that I like to do
23:00were combined because now I'm like a
23:02psychology content creator and I have a
23:04podcast and I'm like I'm kind of acting
23:07on stage but also you know interviewing
23:10people like yourself and you know it it
23:13kind of tied in really beautifully.
23:16>> When did when did that all start to come
23:18together for you? When were you able did
23:20you go through some moments where you
23:21weren't so so uh keyed in on what on
23:25this kind of thing? I mean when did it
23:27happen for you?
23:28>> Yeah, absolutely. I mean for most of my
23:30life I didn't know what my career path
23:32would look like. I guess kids nowadays
23:35they know they want to be an influencer
23:37or YouTuber but you know when I was
23:39younger it was still like the most the
23:41more traditional roles like okay you
23:44could work in marketing. is not just
23:46doctor or lawyer but you know you h
23:48still have to kind of choose a career
23:50path and it wasn't until
23:53>> maybe I was 18 19 that you know I found
23:57out like okay there's actually
23:59alternatives and you can make money from
24:01these things and that could be a career
24:03path. So it's it's super fascinating. I
24:07want to know also about you like when
24:09did you discover you know this passion
24:12for writing and everything you do now?
24:16Well, um, you know, it's it's uh when I
24:20was probably about eight years old or so
24:22or or even younger, I had this thing
24:26about words. I thought words were kind
24:28of like magic and um just the sound of
24:32words. I'm very a person that's very
24:34into the sounds of things and I love
24:36hearing language and when I write
24:39something, I'm always hearing it in my
24:41head first. And so words kind of
24:44obsessed me at a very early age. And
24:47then
24:48when I was about eight years old, I I
24:51sudden we got this thing in school where
24:53you could um they gave you a pamphlet
24:56and you could buy these books if you put
24:59a little check by them and there would
25:00be like you know hundreds of book titles
25:03in there. They were for children, books
25:05for children. And I remember I ticked
25:08off about 80 of these books. My parents
25:11got really upset because 80 books were
25:14delivered. They had to pay for it. But I
25:16I got so into reading. Suddenly reading
25:19became like this magical world. I mean
25:23think of it. I tell people reading a
25:26book if you think about what it is it is
25:30like magic. It is like a total process
25:33of enchantment. You're entering into the
25:35mind of another person who's weaving
25:38this if it's fiction, weaving this
25:40imaginary world. And for a child, for
25:43me, it was like I was so in love with
25:46this. I wanted to be a writer. And then
25:50like you, I couldn't figure out where
25:53exactly my writing would fit. Right? It
25:57wasn't in journalism that I tried. I
26:00tried writing novels. That didn't work.
26:03I got into Hollywood. I tried writing
26:05screenplays that didn't work. And then
26:07suddenly it clicked with writing a
26:09non-fiction book with giving the chance
26:12to write the 48 laws of power. And then
26:14everything came together just like it
26:16did for you in podcasting.
26:19But the main thing is I I never gave up.
26:22I had a lot of pain. I didn't have
26:25success until I was almost 40 years old.
26:28And so, but I never gave up. I knew that
26:31this is what I was meant to do. I knew
26:32that this was I was different from other
26:35people in this one thing. And so I I
26:38never had doubts. I just kept trying and
26:40trying and trying and trying.
26:43>> That's incredibly inspiring. And I love
26:46I think a lot of people, you know,
26:47they're in their 30s or 40s and they
26:50feel lost and they feel like I should
26:52have already found that thing or my path
26:55or and they haven't and they feel maybe
26:57like failures. And you know, it's so
27:00inspiring to hear a story like yours and
27:02know that
27:04>> no, you don't have to be in your 20s or
27:0615 to find your life path. You could be
27:0940, you could be 50, you could be much
27:11older than that.
27:13So, thank you so much for sharing that.
27:15>> Yeah. Well, um, like you, um, I had many
27:19different sides to my personality. I
27:21also liked kind of acting and performing
27:24and being out in public and stuff. I had
27:26many different interests. I liked
27:28fiction. I liked stories, but I also
27:31liked history. How can you possibly put
27:34all that together into one skill into
27:37into making money and having a living in
27:38life? That's was the puzzle I couldn't
27:41solve.
27:42And finally I solved it. There was also
27:45some luck involved I have to admit. You
27:47know I met a man who was a book producer
27:50of books. He asked me for an idea for a
27:54book if I had any. And I improvised the
27:5748 laws of power. If I hadn't met him I
28:01wouldn't be talking to you right now. So
28:03luck certainly intervenes in our career
28:05paths. Right. But opportunities are
28:09always there for for people. I don't
28:10know how your opportunity to do podcast
28:12came about, but if you're ready, if the
28:15moment is right, you will you will seize
28:17that opportunity.
28:20>> Absolutely. I love that. That's amazing.
28:23And just going back to talking about,
28:27you know, the laws of power. I wanted to
28:29ask also, does power look differently
28:32for men versus women?
28:36>> Yeah, it's a great question. Um,
28:40I I think it's um a lot harder for
28:43women, you know, because what they're
28:45judged by, the standards they're judged
28:48by, makes the game more difficult. So,
28:51we should have much more respect in our
28:54culture for women who do make it, who
28:56are successful because they have to go
28:58through so many more hurdles than a man
29:01does. So if a man is kind of tough and a
29:05little bit mean and a little bit hard,
29:08it's okay because that's part of being
29:10masculine. That's part of what goes
29:11with. But if a woman has these
29:13qualities, she's a right? And
29:16that's not seen, you know? So women have
29:18to be so much more careful about the
29:21steps that they take, you know? So some
29:24of the laws that I have in there are
29:26kind of strong. And if a woman uses
29:29them, she's going to be judged very
29:31negatively negatively. Whereas suppose a
29:34man will be admired for those same
29:35qualities. [snorts] So, but the thing is
29:40women have skills and of course we're
29:43generalizing here. It's absurd, but
29:45women have qualities that I think make
29:48them in some ways superior in the game
29:51of power to men. Okay. So, I mentioned
29:56earlier that we're social animals. We're
29:59very political. People are tricky. They
30:02don't reveal who they are. They don't
30:03reveal what they're thinking. But women,
30:07at least traditionally, and maybe
30:09they're losing it now, I don't know, are
30:12much more sensitive to the social world.
30:16They're much more sensitive the way they
30:17are raised, to what people are feeling,
30:20right? To what might be going on in
30:22their heads. They're more socialized.
30:25They're more sensitive to what to what's
30:28going on in a group. That kind of of
30:32empathy, that kind of thinking inside of
30:34what's going on in people's minds is
30:37very very powerful tool in the game of
30:40power.
30:42So whereas women have to jump through
30:43hurdles that make it more complicated
30:46and difficult for them, they have
30:48natural skills that in a group setting
30:50as a leader or working in a group can
30:54make them superior actors. Because men
30:57tend to be so involved in their egos and
31:01in their own worlds and in their own
31:03ideas and thoughts that they can be very
31:06insensitive and very coarse and not
31:08understand. If you're a leader and
31:11you're dealing with all these different
31:12people and you're not attuned to their
31:14different personalities, it can be very
31:17counterproductive.
31:19Women have a a greater ability to tune
31:22into those kinds of things. I know I'm
31:24generalizing,
31:26but in the world today where power is
31:29becoming more subtle, more difficult,
31:32that skill of understanding people, of
31:34being better at the social game is, I
31:36think, a great advantage. So in some
31:39ways
31:41um in the future I think there's going
31:43to be women are going to be infinite
31:45going to be much more powerful. The game
31:47is going to equalize because right now
31:48it's not equal.
31:52>> Maybe you should write 48 laws of power
31:54for women next. I' [laughter] I've been
31:56asked to do that but you know I'm a man
32:00[laughter] and uh I don't know these you
32:04know I can get inside the experiences of
32:07other people. I get inside the
32:09experiences of animals. I'm an animal
32:11lover. I have cats and I'm always
32:14thinking of what they're thinking and
32:16what's going on in their world. So I can
32:18enter into I can imagine what it could
32:21be like to be a woman. But there are
32:24limits to that game. So for instance,
32:28>> I do know that in the moments of my life
32:31where people judged me for how I look,
32:34for the clothes that I wear or for, you
32:37know, my hair or how I look. I hated
32:39that, man. I hated that. I think that is
32:42I found that so offensive and so
32:44upsetting to me. But then I think, God,
32:47women have to deal with that all of the
32:49time. that's like so much of their life.
32:53I couldn't I couldn't endure that. It
32:55would drive me crazy. So, if you think
32:58in terms of that, if you think of what
33:00uh women experience or what men
33:02experience if you're a woman and try and
33:04imagine what their world is like, you
33:06can gain more insights into how into the
33:09difficulties or the problems or the
33:11advantages that they have.
33:14>> Absolutely.
33:15And [snorts] yeah, it's it's just always
33:18horrible and sad when people, you know,
33:21are being offensive and judge you and
33:24it's but whether you're a man or women
33:26because I feel like men are more are
33:28becoming more aware of how they look
33:30nowadays as well with social media and
33:32everything. So it used to be more women
33:35but men are equally you know offended by
33:39these kind of things and
33:43um you know in the art of seduction you
33:46talk about seduction archetypes. I was
33:49curious if there's also power archetypes
33:53if you know you mentioned power can look
33:55in different ways based on your gender.
33:58Are there some other power archetypes
34:00you could talk about?
34:03Well, yeah. I mean, that's a a great
34:05question. I think when I originally was
34:07doing the 48 laws of power, I was going
34:09to do something similar to that. I mean,
34:13you have people So, uh, in the in the 48
34:17laws of power, one of the types was
34:20seducers. And that's why I decided to
34:22write the art of seduction. So,
34:23seducers, seduction is a form of power,
34:27is a form of soft power.
34:29Then you have people who are absolutely
34:33brilliant at the game of attention,
34:37right? A lot of that's in social media,
34:39influencers, etc. They know how to gain
34:42attention. Either it's by being
34:45ridiculous and clownlike or it's by
34:47being very funny and humorous, or it's
34:50by saying things that are extremely
34:52interesting and provocative to people.
34:55So there there's there's one law in
34:57there about court attention at all cost.
35:00So there are types of people who are
35:02absolutely brilliant at the attention
35:06game, right? Okay. So that's one thing.
35:08The seducers are the other type. Then
35:11there are people
35:13who are master manipulators. Okay. Now
35:18gaining attention and being a seducer,
35:22you know, involves some manipulation.
35:24But there are others who are just
35:26absolutely brilliant at that. And what
35:29that requires is the ability to think
35:32several moves in advance and also
35:35understand the weaknesses of the people
35:38around you. Okay? And so among the group
35:42of manipulators, I would I would
35:45classify two different types. They're
35:47the aggressive manu manipulators who
35:49know how to push people around, who know
35:51how to press certain buttons and get you
35:54upset and worried and anxious and they
35:56know how to kind of manipulate your
35:58emotions. Then there are the clever,
36:01intriguing types who are much more
36:03political and they think three moves in
36:07advance. So I'm working in this office.
36:11If I get this particular person
36:14interested in my idea that could advance
36:17me a little further, then they're going
36:18to connect me to this other person.
36:20They're thinking several moves in
36:22advance. They're very clever
36:24strategists. So there there's the
36:26manipulators, they're the great
36:28strategists in the world, they're the
36:29attention seekers, there are the
36:32seducers.
36:34Uh um I don't know there I'm sure there
36:37are others but that's those are some of
36:39the types that I would imagine I would
36:41mention. If you give me time Francesca I
36:44could come up with four or five other
36:45types but you know that should do for
36:47now.
36:48>> That's absolutely fine and it's super
36:51valuable to know about these types of
36:53power. And you know, talking about
36:56manipulation,
36:57um, I was curious, can you pinpoint some
37:01techniques that someone might be using
37:03on you to try to manipulate you?
37:09>> Yes. Um well the main thing that you
37:12need to do [clears throat] the main
37:13protection you need in life is
37:17to recognize the type of people who are
37:20manipulators before you get involved
37:22with them. [cough]
37:24So people who are
37:27malignant narcissists for instance who
37:30and and the game of people who are
37:32malignant narcissists is to get is to
37:36infect your emotions to gain control
37:38over your emotions to create all kinds
37:41of drama where they're making you react.
37:43They're making you upset and they're in
37:45complete control of that. Okay. So
37:48that's like one of the worst forms of
37:50manipulators that are out there. But
37:53once you get involved with someone like
37:55that, the way you can recognize that
37:56you're being manipulated is by the
37:59emotional reactions people are
38:01turnurning up that you cannot control.
38:03They're making you angry. They're making
38:05you upset. They're making you excited.
38:08And then that excitement changes into
38:10fear, into insecurity.
38:14You feel constantly emotional, like
38:17you're being played, right? But you
38:20don't realize it sometimes in the moment
38:22because when we get emotional, we're we
38:24we don't think very well. We don't we're
38:26not being very rational. So you can
38:29recognize it when people by your
38:33reactions, by how emotional you are and
38:35how it's constantly shifting.
38:38[clears throat] The problem is is that
38:39by the time you realize that it's almost
38:42too late because you're so upset, you're
38:45so [clears throat] entangled in their
38:47power games that it's very hard to get
38:50yourself out of it. So the best defense
38:53in this world
38:55[clears throat] is to recognize the
38:57manipulators before you get involved
38:59with them.
39:00First of all, [clears throat and cough]
39:02you notice that they have a track record
39:05that [snorts] they've manipulated other
39:06people that they have a lot of enemies
39:08in this world, right? If they have a lot
39:11of enemies in this world, that must mean
39:13something. Okay? But um you also are
39:17attuned
39:18to their body language, to the
39:20non-verbal communication cues that
39:22people give. When people look at you,
39:27their eyes reveal a lot. Their eyes
39:30reveal that they're actually interested,
39:32they're actually engaging.
39:35Manipulators have this kind of distance
39:37in their eyes as if they're thinking as
39:40you can hear them thinking. They're not
39:42like looking at you. They're kind of
39:45going, "Wow, what can I what can I say
39:46to get this person interested in me?"
39:49The eyes reveal a lot about whether
39:51people are outwardly focused or inwardly
39:53focused.
39:55and [clears throat] be very attuned to
39:57the body language, to what seems
39:59authentic and what is fake. I mean,
40:02these are some cues, but the most
40:04important thing is to be aware of your
40:07emotions and how you're being played and
40:09how they're constantly shifting because
40:12of all the drama that this person is
40:13stirring up.
40:16>> That's very useful. And those are some
40:19really great signs to look out for. And
40:21I always think about it as a roller
40:23coaster. Sorry.
40:25>> Have you ever dealt Have you ever dealt
40:27with someone who was a who was a great
40:29manipulator?
40:30>> Oh yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Great
40:34social
40:35>> great social manipulator. It was a
40:38woman. It was a girl actually. She was
40:40quite young. But she had this since she
40:43was a baby, she had this ability. I
40:46think it was just narcissism to be
40:48honest. And I don't use that term
40:50lightly. I don't like throwing it
40:52around, but I think she was actually, if
40:55there's one person in the world, she was
40:56definitely diagnosed with narcissism.
40:59And you know, she could just um take you
41:04on this roller coaster of emotions from
41:06like hate to love to excitement to fear,
41:09everything you mentioned. And she could
41:12really control the group dynamic. So if
41:15she wanted someone excluded, she would
41:17make everyone else turn against the
41:19other person. And no one in the group
41:21actually liked her, but they were all
41:24kind of scared of her. And it's it
41:27wasn't like this was the boss or someone
41:29who had real power over other people.
41:33But the way she can manipulate people,
41:36honestly, it was impressive. You know, I
41:38I didn't like her at all, but it was
41:41impressive. I was like, "Wow, this is
41:44crazy."
41:46So, yeah, there's definitely people like
41:47that.
41:50Yeah,
41:51>> it's amazing as you say what one person
41:54can do and how they can completely
41:56disrupt and dominate a group dynamic,
41:59>> you know, and and you want to wonder
42:01what is it about them and what is that
42:02skill or what are they doing that gives
42:05them that power? It's a fascinating
42:06subject. Why don't you like using the
42:08word narcissist?
42:11I just think people nowadays throw it
42:14around overuse. Everyone's a narcissist.
42:18My mom's a narcissist. My dad's a nar,
42:19my boyfriend's a narcissist, you know,
42:21because they did one thing. And I think
42:24we're all narcissists to a degree or
42:27another. I think
42:28>> it's a spectrum. [laughter]
42:31And then you know the people that are
42:34>> actually diagnosed with it I think it
42:36was like one or two% of the population
42:39whereas everyone thinks everyone's a
42:41narcissist. So you know I think there's
42:43a difference like sure you can have
42:45narcissistic qualities or behaviors or
42:47you can be more narcissistic and then
42:49you can be more selfless in in different
42:52contexts but yeah I just don't like to
42:55throw that term around you know as
42:58easily as most people do.
43:01Well, yeah. Would you agree? [laughter]
43:04>> Yes, I do agree. In the laws of human
43:06nature, I have a chapter on narcissism
43:08and I say that we are all narcissists.
43:11We are all self-absorbed by our nature
43:14as human animals in the 21st century.
43:16It's unavoidable
43:18that we think first and foremost of
43:20oursel that we're more interested in our
43:22own ideas than in other people's ideas.
43:25You know, it's natural and it's normal.
43:29But what happens is that um you have
43:32people who are somewhat healthy with
43:35their narcissism, they're aware of it
43:38and they have a degree of self-love and
43:41self-respect
43:43so that when bad things happen to them
43:46and they and they start feeling
43:47depressed and low, they're able to raise
43:50themselves back up because they have a
43:52degree of self-love. So self-love is not
43:55a bad thing. It's actually a very good
43:57and powerful thing. And what happens
44:00with terrible narcissists, the 1%, I
44:03would say to me, I think it's more like
44:045%, but who knows? It's just a number.
44:07>> You're probably right.
44:08>> When bad things when bad things happen
44:12and they and they start feeling upset
44:13and insecure, they don't have that
44:15self-love to raise them back up. the
44:18only way that they can feel okay about
44:20it is to start hurting other people to
44:23start creating drama and getting
44:25attention instead of an internal voice
44:27that goes, "You're not so bad. Let's
44:30let's let's, you know, just wait it out.
44:32Things will get better." They go, "I'm
44:34so desperate. I'm so upset. I'm so
44:36angry. I have to get attention. I have
44:38to get other people. I have to
44:40manipulate other people." They cannot
44:42raise themselves back up. So to be to
44:46have some love for yourself, to have
44:47some self-esteem is actually a very good
44:50and positive and powerful thing.
44:53>> Absolutely. And I think that's an
44:55amazing way to differentiate people who
44:58are actually narcissistic diagnosed and
45:01then people who are just, you know,
45:03normal and are just on the spectrum,
45:05narcissistic spectrum. And
45:08>> yeah. Yeah. I think spectrum is a good
45:09word for it. Yeah.
45:11M and you know you were you mentioned
45:15seduction and you said also that
45:18manipulation is kind of part of it. I
45:21was wondering what is seduction?
45:24>> Well uh seduction is a form of power. So
45:27um
45:29[clears throat] you know uh
45:32people um have a weakness in life. Okay.
45:36And the weakness that we all have,
45:38myself included, everybody on this
45:40planet, is that we don't have enough
45:43pleasure. Okay? We don't have enough
45:46fun. We don't have enough excitement. We
45:49don't have enough theater and drama and
45:52things that are that raise us out of the
45:55finalities of everyday life. We're
45:58hungry for that, right? We have to work.
46:02We have to handle all the business
46:04things in our life. Life can be really
46:07drudgery and difficult and painful.
46:11And so that weakness is the fact that we
46:14want pleasure. We want to get out of our
46:17day-to-day world. We want to get out of
46:18the benalities that are weighing us
46:20down. So along comes a person, a man or
46:24a woman
46:26or an animal because animals seduce. Um,
46:30and they they say, "All right, I'm going
46:34to give this person a taste of some
46:36pleasure, a taste of some thrill, a
46:40taste of some excitement. It could be
46:42sexual, but doesn't have to be sexual.
46:44It could be an adventure. You know, men
46:47are very much seduced by women who are
46:50offering an adventure because they like
46:54the thrill of the hunt. They like to
46:56chase. They like anything that has a
46:58little bit of danger involved. Okay. So,
47:02what you're offering is something that
47:04people don't normally get in their
47:06day-to-day life. If you're a man or a
47:08woman and you know how to give people a
47:11taste of that pleasure and get them
47:13eating out of your hand and running
47:15after you, you are a master seducer or
47:17seductress. That is the art. It is
47:20knowing people's weakness and need for
47:23to be taken out of their boring
47:25day-to-day life and playing on that to
47:28seduce them, to make them fall in love,
47:30to make them vote for you in election,
47:33to sell them a product in marketing,
47:35whatever it is. It's all the same
47:37psychology.
47:39>> So, seduction is not just in the
47:41romantic context. It could be in any
47:45kind of context,
47:48>> of course. I mean, to [clears throat]
47:49win an election these days as a
47:51politician,
47:53you have to be really good at media,
47:55right? It's a new phenomenon. It wasn't
47:57necessarily like that 200 years ago. Um,
48:01you have to, it's not that you're not
48:02just a good speaker, but you're good on
48:04television, you're good on social media,
48:05you're good, you know, in any kind of
48:08image um orientation, right? So, you
48:11have to be a seducer. You have to know
48:14that voters
48:16are missing something. Usually in an
48:18election, what that is is people want
48:21change. They're bored and they're tired
48:23with the same Labor party, Republicans,
48:26Democrats. I want change. I want things
48:28different. You know how to appeal to
48:30that. You're a seducer. You're giving
48:32them something that they don't have. In
48:35marketing, you're figuring out audiences
48:38are so inundated with this particular
48:40approach. here's a new approach that's
48:43going to get their attention, right? And
48:46make them excited. That's seduction,
48:49okay? You're working in an office and
48:52you're not you don't want to be sexually
48:54seducing people in your office,
48:55hopefully. Okay, but you know that
48:59people want to be liked. They want
49:02respect. They want validation.
49:04You want to you want to feel that your
49:07ideas are great ideas. Well, that's what
49:09that person does in this in the work
49:12office. It's called a charmer. That's
49:14one of the types of seducers. They know
49:16how to make you feel great about
49:18yourself. That's a seduction.
49:21Social, political, sexual, marketing,
49:24it's all the same.
49:27>> Very interesting. So, besides the
49:29charmer, what are the other archetypes
49:31of seduction?
49:36Well, uh, starting at the beginning,
49:38there's the siren. So, I maintain in the
49:40art of seduction that it is women that
49:42invented the art of seduction and the
49:45most ancient archetypes of seduction are
49:47women and the siren is the preeeminent
49:51female seductress
49:53and it has a very physical component to
49:56it. Uh, a seduct a siren has a very
50:00powerful sexual energy that isn't
50:03obvious. It's not like they go around
50:05naked or anything, but it's in their
50:07aura. I often when I'm watching a movie
50:11and I'm looking at actresses,
50:14I can see I can feel it in them. I don't
50:17know what it is exactly, but I know one
50:20of the archetypes that I talk about is
50:22Marilyn Monroe. And Marilyn Monroe
50:26would literally make love to the camera.
50:29She wanted you to love her, right?
50:32Right? And so she was so vulnerable and
50:34so open and that gave her that kind of
50:36siren presence. But it's a sort of
50:39physical quality that men only really a
50:42man can appreciate because the siren is
50:44a powerful sedu seductress of men. A man
50:48feels that energy in the woman and is
50:51really drawn to it. Also, sirens are
50:54very theatrical. They create a lot of
50:56drama. They create fantasy. like
50:58Cleopatra was creating incredible
51:00fantasies. So that's the siren. On the
51:04flip side is the male seducer because
51:07all the other types can be male or
51:09female, but these two types are
51:11generally one or the other.
51:13Is the rake. That's the most primal
51:16[snorts]
51:17powerful form of male seduction is the
51:20rake. And the rake is a man
51:25who really understands and really likes
51:27women. He's very interested in women. He
51:30was probably had sisters that had a
51:34strong mother and he was around women.
51:36He likes them. He appreciates them. He
51:38understands their psychology, their
51:40needs. The thing is he's never satisfied
51:44by one woman.
51:46It's after a couple of months he's on to
51:48somebody else. Okay? But in those two
51:51months that a rake is interested in you,
51:54no woman can resist him because he fills
51:57you with so much attention that's so
51:59focused on you and it's not like creepy
52:01attention. It's not like a stalking
52:03attention. It's loving romantic
52:06attention that you don't get from any
52:08other men man because men are so
52:10interested in their work and their
52:12business. They don't even they don't
52:13care about women's things. This man is
52:16all focused on you. He understands you.
52:19He's giving you what you want. No woman
52:21can resist it. And men who are rakes are
52:24also very good with words
52:27because words are the woman's weakness.
52:29A man who can speak well, who can weave
52:32stories and poetic things with his with
52:35his tongue is extremely seductive.
52:38Right? For men, it's appearances. It's
52:41visuals. It's that sexual energy. For
52:43women, a lot of it revolves around words
52:45and ideas and thoughts and concepts and
52:48fantasies that a man can evol can evoke.
52:52That is the rake. All right? No man can
52:56resist a siren and no woman can resist a
52:59true rake. The other types are like the
53:02dandy which is a type of man or woman
53:06who has qualities of the opposite sex
53:09oppos the other gender. So, it's a man
53:12with a touch of femininity. It's a woman
53:14with a touch of masculinity. And believe
53:17it or not, that has very, very powerful
53:19sexual and social appeal to people. I
53:22could go into why that is, but that's a
53:24very powerful type. There is the uh
53:27natural, which is somebody who has a
53:29very childlike ability. They're
53:31spontaneous.
53:33They they may be in their 20s, but they
53:36you have the feeling that they're five
53:37years old. They're so real and natural
53:40and spontaneous and kind of helpless and
53:43vulnerable. They go, "Wow, that's
53:45lovable. I want to, you know, I want
53:47that person." There's the coette, which
53:50traditionally is a woman, but can be a
53:52man. Is the one who plays hot and cold.
53:56They They're suddenly so excited about
53:58you, their eyes go, "Wow, there's
54:00there's something going on there." And
54:02then the next minute, they're all cold
54:04and distant. and they've completely
54:06wrapped you around your finger by this
54:08pattern of coldness and hotness.
54:11Uh there are a few others, but I don't
54:13want to exhaust the list. That gives you
54:14an idea.
54:16>> Super interesting. Yeah, thank you so
54:18much for the
54:18>> whole list.
54:21>> No, that was good enough. And yeah, I
54:23think but those are kind of most of
54:25them, right? So, um that was really
54:29>> That's like five of six of of the nine.
54:31Yeah.
54:33>> Very interesting.
54:35And for someone who's listening right
54:37now and they're thinking, you know, this
54:41sounds amazing, but they don't
54:43necessarily feel seductive or they don't
54:45feel like they have any of those
54:48qualities or they don't feel like
54:50they're attracting someone. Is there a
54:52way for someone to cultivate this
54:55magnetic seductive aura?
54:57>> Yeah. Yeah.
54:59>> How do they do it?
54:59>> It's very simple.
55:01I mean there are there are many
55:03different ways to get there but there's
55:05one path that is the most powerful of
55:07all and that is to be more interested in
55:11other people. So what makes you
55:14unseductive, what I call anti-seductive
55:16is that you're so self-absorbed. You're
55:19only thinking about yourself. You're
55:21insecure. You're worried about what
55:23people think about you. You're
55:25constantly going, "Am I saying the right
55:28things to this woman in the bar? Is she
55:30bored? Am I? You're so wrapped up in
55:33your own thoughts that you're not paying
55:35attention. The ability to get outside of
55:38yourself. And you can practice this. The
55:41problem nowadays is everything is
55:43virtual.
55:44You're swiping to find somebody. You
55:48need to practice this on people in the
55:50world and not virtually. Okay? And the
55:53practice is this
55:56thinking about them. So, if I were
56:00interested in you, Francesca, right now,
56:02just as a scenario, right, and I was
56:05trying to seduce you, okay, and we were
56:08in a restaurant or a bar,
56:10I'd be focusing on what are who you are,
56:15what your world is like, I would be
56:18asking questions that aren't obvious,
56:20but that show that I'm interested in
56:23your world, how you think, what's going
56:25on with you, what has been your what was
56:27your childhood? Like I get you to talk
56:30about yourself.
56:32People never feel like they're the star
56:34of the show. They never feel like they
56:35get to talk about themselves. You get
56:37the other person to talk because you're
56:39focused on them. You're not focused on
56:41yourself. Right? I'm interested in you.
56:44I'm interested in what makes Francesca
56:46tick. What What were her horrible
56:49experiences with boyfriends in the past
56:51and why? I'm interested. I'm trying to
56:54get inside of your world and think like
56:56you think so I can understand what it is
56:59that you're missing in life. Okay. What
57:03makes people bad at the game is they
57:05can't get inside of other people.
57:07They're so locked in their heads.
57:09They're so in only can only think about
57:11what they need, what they want, what
57:14they think is funny or what they think
57:16is interesting. But you have to think of
57:18what the other person finds interesting.
57:20I have this famous quote that I'm going
57:22to mangle terribly in the art of
57:25seduction where in England in the 19th
57:28century there were these two political
57:30rivals Benjamin Draeli who was a great
57:34prime minister and uh this other man
57:36gold I can't remember what his name was
57:38goldmith goldsmith maybe gold something
57:41or other sorry um and
57:46was the master seducer and this woman
57:49this prince princess or whatever was at
57:51a a a party an evening with them and she
57:54said sitting next to Mr. Goldsmith
57:57whatever his name was I thought he was
57:59the most interesting man in the world
58:02sitting next to Mr. Israeli. I thought I
58:05was the most interesting person in the
58:07world. That is what charm, that is what
58:10seduction is. So, you're not trying to
58:13impress people with how brilliant you
58:14are. You're trying to make them feel
58:16brilliant. You're trying to make them
58:18feel wonderful and great. Not you.
58:21>> Get out of yourself. Get out of your
58:23world. Get out of your own problems and
58:25get inside other people, inside their
58:28minds. Ask questions. And then this is a
58:32very brilliant seduction technique. When
58:35somebody says something that seems kind
58:38of interesting or telling,
58:40the next day or later that evening, you
58:43come back to them and you quote what
58:45they were saying in some context.
58:48What this reveals is that you were
58:50listening to them, that you've retained
58:52something they said that was very
58:54personal, and you've quoted it back to
58:57them. Not in an obvious way, but it
58:59reveals indirectly that you were truly
59:01listening to them. Man, that is powerful
59:03because people don't listen to each
59:05other anymore.
59:07>> Yeah, absolutely. That makes total
59:10sense. And I think a lot of women are
59:12complaining about that. They're going on
59:14dates and they feel like the guy hasn't
59:16asked them any questions or they only
59:18talked about themselves. And you know,
59:21it seems like a simple ask like, "Please
59:23just ask me some questions." But you'd
59:25be surprised how little it actually
59:28happens.
59:29>> Well, that's that's men's that's men's
59:31weakness when it comes to seduction.
59:32They talk too much about themselves.
59:35>> It's a terrible quality.
59:38>> Mhm. Are there any you mentioned some
59:40anti- seductive qualities? Are there
59:43other habits that maybe people are doing
59:46unconsciously that are anti-seductive?
59:50Well, uh, one quality is moralizing and
59:54judging and always judging other people
59:57and judging them for what they said and
59:59judging them for what they look and
1:00:01judging from the clothes that they wear
1:00:02and judging them for their friends and
1:00:04their political opinions, that is
1:00:06completely unseductive. Being moralizing
1:00:10and superior,
1:00:12that that will put anybody off. Okay?
1:00:15being um so insecure that you're always
1:00:19worried about what you're going to say
1:00:21and whether you're pleasing people. We
1:00:24can read that kind of insecurity on
1:00:26people. It's very anti-seductive
1:00:28insecurity.
1:00:29The lack of generosity.
1:00:32So,
1:00:33um if you're a man, uh I mean this is
1:00:37I'm being very traditional here, so it's
1:00:39I'm I don't know. It's probably not very
1:00:41good for the 21st century, but pay pay
1:00:44the money. Pick up the bill. Don't be
1:00:47tight. Don't be such a tight wad. Don't
1:00:49be having always to split the bill. Pay
1:00:51for things. Give generous gifts, but not
1:00:54just material things. Be generous with
1:00:58your attention. Right? So, you're
1:01:01somebody that's always involved in your
1:01:03business and your work and you have no
1:01:05time for the for your partner or the
1:01:07person you're trying to seduce. Do the
1:01:09opposite and be generous with the time
1:01:12that you give them. If the woman for
1:01:15instance, if it's a man and woman, the
1:01:17woman knows that you're very busy. Okay?
1:01:19But if suddenly you take off a complete
1:01:22day and you say, "Let's just go off and
1:01:23do our things and let's just be together
1:01:25for that whole day." That's powerful.
1:01:27You're being generous with your spirit.
1:01:29You're being generous with your time.
1:01:31That is un lack of that is a very
1:01:35anti-seductive quality. Those are some
1:01:38of them. Once again, I could go through
1:01:40all 10, but I'm just gonna leave it at
1:01:42that for now.
1:01:43>> Yeah. I think those are so spot on.
1:01:47Yeah, absolutely. And I can so much
1:01:50resonate with that. And
1:01:52>> I mean, the one I left out, but I kind
1:01:54of mentioned is the talker, the big
1:01:56talker, the person that's always
1:01:57bragging and saying, "God, I was so
1:01:59great and look at all the wonderful
1:02:01things I've done and all the people that
1:02:03have been interested in me and all the
1:02:04things I've accomplished and how many
1:02:06books I've written and how fantastic and
1:02:08how many followers I have on Instagram."
1:02:10Man, that is really anti-seductive.
1:02:13Yeah, absolutely. And also, you know,
1:02:16you mentioning generosity. I think it
1:02:19applies to both men and women. And you
1:02:22know, even if you, for instance, I
1:02:25remember going out with this like girl
1:02:29um just like as friends. And I think it
1:02:32was like we met at the book club and
1:02:34then we went for a coffee and at the end
1:02:36she picked up the bill and like she paid
1:02:38for it. And I was like, "Wow, that had
1:02:40never happened to me before with a
1:02:42woman, you know, like like a friend has
1:02:45never really paid for my coffee before."
1:02:47And I really appreciated that, you know,
1:02:50it really made me like like [snorts] her
1:02:52more. And then the other example is I
1:02:56don't know what it is about the UK, but
1:02:59on birthdays, people don't bring you
1:03:01gifts. Whereas where I'm from, which is
1:03:04Romania, people always bring you
1:03:06thoughtful, really nice gifts, you know,
1:03:09and they pay for things and they invest
1:03:11money and time. And then it was such a
1:03:14shock to see, you know, I made some
1:03:17British friends and they came to my
1:03:19birthday and they came empty-handed and
1:03:22I had to adjust.
1:03:23>> When is your birthday, Francesca?
1:03:25>> It's on the 28th of March.
1:03:29>> 20th of March.
1:03:30>> 28th.
1:03:31>> 20th. 28th.
1:03:32>> 28th of March.
1:03:34>> Yeah.
1:03:34>> Okay. I have friends who are that. So,
1:03:36you're an Aries.
1:03:38>> Yes, I'm an Aries. How about you? When's
1:03:40your birthday?
1:03:42>> Uh, May 14.
1:03:44>> So, are you a Taurus? Yeah. Oh, very
1:03:47cool.
1:03:48>> So, yeah, I think, you know,
1:03:51>> it really puts you off when people
1:03:53aren't being generous.
1:03:55>> On the subject of gifts, gifts are a
1:03:57very important topic in in the art of
1:03:59seduction. And what you must understand
1:04:02is the power of a gift isn't necessarily
1:04:06in the money that you've spent on it.
1:04:09It's in the thoughtfulness of it. And
1:04:12the thoughtfulness is
1:04:14you're giving them something that
1:04:16appeals to them as an individual. This
1:04:19is the other thing about seduction that
1:04:21you need to understand.
1:04:23You know, back in the early 2000s, we
1:04:26had this big thing about the pickup
1:04:27artist, right?
1:04:29particularly in Los Angeles, the game,
1:04:32you know, playing the game. Men knew all
1:04:34these techniques for how to seduce
1:04:36women. The problem was that it wasn't
1:04:38geared towards a woman who as an
1:04:40individual, her specific needs. It was
1:04:43just this kind of general strategies
1:04:44that you applied and women could see
1:04:46through it. It was very off-putting. So,
1:04:49you're dealing with people as an
1:04:50individual. Do you, Francesca, have your
1:04:53own needs, your own interests, your own
1:04:56peculiar tastes? If I give you a gift
1:04:59that shows I understand
1:05:02what you who you are as an individual, I
1:05:05give you some music that I know is your
1:05:09taste or I give you not just flowers,
1:05:12not just the general cliched stuff, but
1:05:14something that shows that I was
1:05:16listening to you, that I understand you,
1:05:18that the gift is personal. It's not just
1:05:19that it was expensive, but that there
1:05:21was some thinking going on in it. That
1:05:24is the more seductive, powerful way to
1:05:26give a gift.
1:05:28Absolutely. And women really appreciate
1:05:30that. Probably men as well, but I'd say
1:05:33particularly women.
1:05:35>> Men too.
1:05:38>> Very interesting. And the other thing I
1:05:41wanted to ask you, you know, you
1:05:42mentioned charm and charisma. Are
1:05:45charisma and seduction the same thing or
1:05:48are they different?
1:05:51Well, um, one of the types of seducers
1:05:55that I did not mention was the
1:05:56charismatic.
1:05:59So, uh, it's definitely a form of
1:06:02seduction.
1:06:04And the idea is, um, backing up a little
1:06:08bit here, seduction and the art of
1:06:10seduction is seduction is a language.
1:06:15It's a language that you are learning.
1:06:17It's not a language of words. It's a
1:06:20language of actions. It's a language of
1:06:24your body, of how you present yourself.
1:06:26It's how you dress, how you look, how
1:06:30you smell. It's a un It's a preverbal
1:06:34language that you have to learn. It's
1:06:36about giving gifts. It's about where you
1:06:38take people. Okay? So, we humans are
1:06:42very attuned to people's nonverbal
1:06:44communication, to their body language.
1:06:47We pick it up. It's the animal part of
1:06:49ourselves, right? And it's very powerful
1:06:52and it's very seductive. Okay? So, a
1:06:56charismatic
1:06:58has very very very powerful body
1:07:02language. And what is that? It's they
1:07:06believe something so strongly. They're
1:07:10so certain about something powerful
1:07:13about their world or what they want that
1:07:16it radiates to them. It's like there's a
1:07:19light bulb inside of them that you can't
1:07:21see, but that animates all their
1:07:24gestures, their eyes, their mouth, their
1:07:26expression. They seem alive. They see
1:07:29it's almost a slight sexual energy, but
1:07:32it's this energy of self-belief, of
1:07:35confidence, of wanting people to like
1:07:38them. Right? This the kind of power that
1:07:41Marilyn Monroe had before the camera. Um
1:07:45and it's extremely powerful. You can
1:07:49read it in people, right? So
1:07:52it's very important for a political
1:07:54figure or an actor or somebody in the
1:07:56public eye to have that quality, right?
1:08:00Um and it can't be faked. That's the
1:08:03thing about it. Um, the thing that's
1:08:06interesting about people with charisma
1:08:08that I discovered in my research is that
1:08:11they generally come from troubled, bad
1:08:14backgrounds. They had bad childhoods.
1:08:17They were abused. They were neglected.
1:08:19They were abandoned. Right? And what
1:08:22happens in that scenario is
1:08:25they didn't get the love and attention
1:08:27that they needed from their parents,
1:08:29from their early caregivers, right? And
1:08:32so they need to get that love and
1:08:34attention from the public. That is how
1:08:37they get their sense of validation and
1:08:40love not from mommy and daddy but from a
1:08:43whole country from an entire audience.
1:08:46You know Winston Churchill had
1:08:48tremendous charisma. But it only came
1:08:51about during World War II in in a time
1:08:54of crisis. But Winston Churchill came
1:08:57from a very broken was very much
1:08:59neglected as a child. John F. Kennedy
1:09:02who had tremendous charisma. His father
1:09:05was extremely cruel and mean to him.
1:09:08Marilyn Monroe was basically raised in
1:09:10an orphanage. She never knew her
1:09:11parents. These types of people feel a
1:09:14tremendous need to get that what they
1:09:17want from the public from a large
1:09:19public. And we can feel it in them
1:09:21nonverbally. It comes out in their face
1:09:24in their manner. And that's these are
1:09:26elements in charisma. M that's so
1:09:30interesting how childhood trauma can
1:09:33make you super charismatic.
1:09:36What other ways in in what other ways
1:09:38does your childhood affect you when it
1:09:41comes to seduction or who you are
1:09:43attracted to?
1:09:48>> Well, um whole books could be written
1:09:50about that. Um and uh you know a lot of
1:09:54it is um [snorts]
1:09:58so when we were very young one or two
1:10:01years old I mean for boys the mother
1:10:04figure had a very important impact on
1:10:07them right so it's different for girls
1:10:11because your early years are with
1:10:14somebody of your own gender because
1:10:17generally we're generalizing but It's
1:10:21changing now, but women were more
1:10:23involved in the first two or three years
1:10:26of a child. It's not changing that much.
1:10:28It's still pretty much the same.
1:10:31So, for a man, the impact of his mother
1:10:36on his
1:10:38on who he's attracted to is incredibly
1:10:42powerful. Right? So um
1:10:46and uh Carl Jung the psychologist you're
1:10:50probably familiar with him right he had
1:10:53this concept of the anima and the
1:10:55animous
1:10:57and the anima is the image that a man
1:11:00carries in him of this kind of ideal
1:11:03woman and it'll be a woman that will
1:11:05appear in his dreams she's usually a
1:11:08little bit elusive she's often maybe a
1:11:11little bit crazy or something Right? But
1:11:14it's a quality that's embedded in him
1:11:17from his mother, from that mother image
1:11:19that is deep, deep, deep deep deep deep
1:11:21down in his psyche. And so later in
1:11:25life, he will be interested, attracted
1:11:27to women who don't consciously conjure
1:11:30up the image of his mother.
1:11:33Unconsciously they do in mannerisms
1:11:37in in in certain vocal patterns in the
1:11:39sound of their voice in the in the fact
1:11:42that they have a nurturing quality or
1:11:44they lack of nurturing quality but
1:11:46something about that mother figure is
1:11:48reflected there. Now women on the other
1:11:52side Jung called it the animos and it's
1:11:55kind of the male the masculine image in
1:11:58your head. And so the thing about the
1:12:00anima for men is that it's the woman
1:12:03part of their personality that is
1:12:05attracted to a woman. I know this sounds
1:12:08strange, but it's actually very
1:12:09interesting. And I've written about it.
1:12:11For woman, it's the masculine part of
1:12:14inside of them, and it's that male voice
1:12:17that they've internalized from their
1:12:18father. And so
1:12:21that father figure, if he's
1:12:24[clears throat] abusive
1:12:26and negative and not loving, it still
1:12:29has a deep deep deep impact on their
1:12:32choices later on in life. It'll be
1:12:36they don't want that type of man. Okay.
1:12:38But that they don't want the type of the
1:12:39father. The father is influencing that
1:12:42choice or there's a quality in that
1:12:45particular powerful figure that is that
1:12:48they were very much attracted to and
1:12:51they're still striving for later in
1:12:53life. And then siblings have a very
1:12:56powerful impact on on on the choices
1:12:59that we have. Particularly if you're a
1:13:02man who has sisters or a girl who has
1:13:05brothers. those sisters and brothers get
1:13:09inside your early years. You were like a
1:13:12sponge and you were absorbing people's
1:13:15energy, right? And had a tremendous
1:13:18impact on you're not even aware of it.
1:13:20And so those siblings that you had, I
1:13:23had a sister who was four years older
1:13:24than me had a very powerful impact on my
1:13:28mind and my interest in things. So the
1:13:31siblings and the parents have a very
1:13:34very powerful effect on who we choose as
1:13:36partners later in life.
1:13:40>> Absolutely. And that makes a lot of
1:13:42sense. I don't think it's strange at
1:13:44all. I can absolutely see it around me
1:13:46and how people make this unconscious
1:13:49choices. I think that's why it's
1:13:51important not to take things personally
1:13:54because a woman might be like, you know,
1:13:55I gave him everything. I was so
1:13:57affectionate. And you know, maybe his
1:13:59mom was not affectionate and that's what
1:14:01he was attracted to and that's why he
1:14:03didn't choose you. So,
1:14:05>> you know, it's it's it's not personal a
1:14:08lot of the times.
1:14:09>> Well, that's that's a very good thing
1:14:11that you bring up because it's important
1:14:14um to not take anything personally in in
1:14:17the game of seduction. So uh a lot of
1:14:20men
1:14:21when you feel rejected by a woman you
1:14:24get very angry and upset and kind of
1:14:27bitter and you carry it with you around
1:14:30with you. And the whole thing is in
1:14:33seduction you need to have a light
1:14:35touch. So if somebody rejected you fine
1:14:40I'm on to the next one. There are other
1:14:41women out there. There are other fish in
1:14:43the ocean. You know I learned something.
1:14:45I learned that I made a mistake. I
1:14:47learned that I I'm not attractive to
1:14:49everyone. Fine. On to the next one.
1:14:52Don't take things personally and don't
1:14:54get so heavy. Seduction is a realm of
1:14:56lightness.
1:14:58>> Absolutely.
1:15:00And I think a lot of people need to
1:15:03really integrate that advice because
1:15:05rejection is quite hard especially in
1:15:09today's world. And that was kind of like
1:15:11my next question is how has seduction
1:15:14and love, you know, how did they change
1:15:17in the modern world?
1:15:22>> Well, I don't know if I'm the best
1:15:24person qualified to answer that since I
1:15:27am, you know, I'm in my 60s. Um, so I'd
1:15:31hate to say that, but it's true. So, I
1:15:33grew up in a different world and I know
1:15:36that world very well. I don't know what
1:15:39it's like to be, you know, in your 20s
1:15:43right now. I have no real access to
1:15:45that, but I know that it's much more
1:15:48difficult. Um, so
1:15:52in my day and age, you only met a woman.
1:15:56I mean, or if you're gay, I mean, we've
1:15:57been very heterosexual here, but it it
1:16:00applies to to all persuasions.
1:16:04um to meet somebody you had to go out
1:16:07physically and do it right and it took a
1:16:10lot of for a man this took a lot of kind
1:16:13of guts to like go up and talk to
1:16:15somebody that you didn't know. It was
1:16:17almost kind of frightening. Then you got
1:16:19used to it. Maybe you got more
1:16:20comfortable and you got better at it and
1:16:22you had more interactions and it became
1:16:25easier and easier and easier. Um, but it
1:16:29was you had to go through this barrier
1:16:32where to meet somebody were in there
1:16:35with them face to face in a bar, in a
1:16:38restaurant, in a club, in any kind of
1:16:41setting. And you had to overcome that
1:16:43fear of rejection, of your timidity. And
1:16:47it was not easy, right? And it developed
1:16:49a skill. And women had something
1:16:52similar. They had to deal with men
1:16:54directly. And that meant sometimes men
1:16:57were kind of frightening and kind of you
1:17:00know too much came on too strong. But
1:17:03you had to deal with that. You had to
1:17:04understand how to negotiate that kind of
1:17:07situation where a man is continually
1:17:09after you.
1:17:11That's like a social skill that you have
1:17:14to learn how to handle these
1:17:16interactions.
1:17:18And now when it's
1:17:22you're not having that. Okay. Yes. you
1:17:24you swiped here and you're going out and
1:17:26you're meeting that person, right? But
1:17:28there's already some interest there
1:17:31involved. You already you didn't have to
1:17:33go up and make that first bold kind of
1:17:36step or deal with that person coming
1:17:38after you in a bar or whatever. And so
1:17:42something social is missing. A skill is
1:17:45missing in in your in your um you know
1:17:48in your set your skill set, right? And
1:17:51so it's a problem. And um also the other
1:17:57thing I would say is uh
1:18:01to fall in love with somebody
1:18:04uh requires opening yourself up and
1:18:06being vulnerable and the possibility of
1:18:10being rejected, the possibility of pain,
1:18:14of being of of of a breakup, right? It
1:18:18can be very debilitating these kinds of
1:18:20experiences and we've all been through
1:18:22them.
1:18:24But people are more afraid now than ever
1:18:26of that of being vulnerable of being
1:18:29open to another person of experiencing
1:18:31that kind of pain. And it makes people
1:18:34afraid of relationships.
1:18:37Now, it's not all bad. Some things have
1:18:39gotten better. Some things about the
1:18:41relationships between men and women have
1:18:43gotten better. Men have had to become
1:18:46probably more sensitive and aware and
1:18:49it's not a completely a man's world
1:18:51anymore. Some things have gotten better.
1:18:54Also, if you're not straight, you know,
1:18:56things have gotten a lot better.
1:18:59But in some ways, it's not it's more
1:19:02difficult for young people, and I can
1:19:04understand that because of
1:19:08the the harshness of the world that
1:19:10they're growing up in makes you much
1:19:12less open to the pain and the
1:19:16vulnerability of a relationship. and the
1:19:18swiping makes it so much harder
1:19:22to understand the social element in
1:19:24dealing with in a seduction. So
1:19:29>> for someone who's not in their 20ies,
1:19:31that was so spot on and I think you
1:19:33absolutely are the person to talk about
1:19:36this. That was that really resonated and
1:19:39I think it resonates with a lot of
1:19:41people what you mentioned about you know
1:19:44the fear of rejection which became way
1:19:47way bigger than it used to be because
1:19:49dating apps basically removed you know
1:19:52any kind of rejection and then you know
1:19:56what you mentioned about vulnerability
1:19:57and how it's required and people
1:20:00nowadays they they don't have that
1:20:02openness anymore. Super fascinating.
1:20:05>> Um Yeah.
1:20:06>> You know, something I hear all the time
1:20:09when it comes to dating advice is just
1:20:12be yourself. Be authentic. What do you
1:20:15think about that?
1:20:19>> Well, um you know, it has some truth to
1:20:23it. I mean, as I mentioned before, um,
1:20:26with the, uh, the game, the pickup
1:20:29artist game, that there's nothing uh,
1:20:32less seductive
1:20:35than you've read a book, you've read
1:20:38Robert Green's Art of Seduction, and
1:20:40you're applying these tactics to
1:20:42somebody, right? You're not being real,
1:20:44you're not being authentic, you're not
1:20:46being okay, so it's that's not
1:20:48seductive. On the other hand,
1:20:51if you're just who you are,
1:20:54then then that's not going to work
1:20:56either. So, if I want to date you and I
1:21:00just wear the kind of clothes that I
1:21:02wear in the house, like shorts and a
1:21:04t-shirt, and then I just take you to the
1:21:07pub where I, you know, have my usual
1:21:09food and beer, that's not seductive, but
1:21:12that's being who I am. That's what I
1:21:13normally would like. You know, that's
1:21:15that's me. No, you dress nicely.
1:21:20You know, you put some effort into it.
1:21:23All right, that's not how you normally
1:21:24would necessarily be. You take them to a
1:21:27place that you think is going to
1:21:28interest them. It isn't normally what
1:21:30you would do in your day-to-day life.
1:21:33You can't be completely yourself because
1:21:35there's no mystery involved. There's no
1:21:37interest. There's no spark going on. You
1:21:39have to create a little bit of mystery.
1:21:42The person can't know exactly who you
1:21:45are. If you just tell them everything
1:21:47about yourself and you just give them
1:21:49everything you have on social media,
1:21:51they know everything about you. There's
1:21:54there's no need to be fascinated by it.
1:21:57The art of seduction, I can tell you
1:21:59very simply, is
1:22:01when I leave you, not after the podcast,
1:22:04but after, you know, a date of some
1:22:07sort, and you're thinking about me, I
1:22:11have seduced you. Okay? To the degree
1:22:14that you're thinking about me and that I
1:22:17got inside of your head, I have seduced
1:22:20you. Okay? Okay. That skill, that
1:22:23ability to do that isn't necessarily
1:22:26authentic. It's not necessarily who I
1:22:28am. It's I I understand. So it's it's
1:22:31it's like a dance. People in the world
1:22:34today are too black and white. They're
1:22:36too got to be authentic or I've got to
1:22:39learn how to play use these tactics.
1:22:42It's both. You're being natural. You
1:22:45know that you're a rake. You know that
1:22:47you're a cokehead and you're bringing
1:22:48that out. But you also understand the
1:22:52psychology of other people and how you
1:22:54have to play to people's individuality
1:22:58and what will get under their skin and
1:22:59what will make them think about you the
1:23:02next day. Right? So if you're a man who
1:23:06just loves to talk about himself and
1:23:08brag about all of your great
1:23:10achievements, you're being natural,
1:23:12you're being authentic, but you're also
1:23:14being a real turnoff. You're being a
1:23:16real anti-seducer.
1:23:18So, learn some skills. Learn to shut up,
1:23:21for instance, and don't be so authentic
1:23:23and learn how to control yourself a
1:23:25little bit.
1:23:27>> Yeah, absolutely. You know, I always
1:23:30thought about this, you know, just be
1:23:31yourself. It's like, but what if being
1:23:34yourself, you know, [snorts] isn't
1:23:36enough to get someone? Sometimes it's
1:23:39about learning some skills or unlearning
1:23:42some things like you mentioned and you
1:23:45know overall bettering yourself as a
1:23:48person as well because
1:23:51>> I guess some people are naturally born
1:23:53or not necessarily born but they grew up
1:23:56in an environment where their parents
1:23:58taught them how to listen for instance
1:24:00or you know they learn some skills but
1:24:03what if you didn't you know and then you
1:24:05lack the skills and you have all these
1:24:07anti seductive qualities like you only
1:24:09talk about yourself then it's actually a
1:24:12good idea to not be yourself and to
1:24:14learn some skills and maybe not do some
1:24:17things. So yeah super super interesting
1:24:19take on it because it's quite
1:24:21controversial as well to say no don't be
1:24:24yourself don't be authentic. [snorts]
1:24:27So,
1:24:27>> right,
1:24:28>> you know, when it comes to people not
1:24:32being authentic and wearing masks,
1:24:35how can you actually,
1:24:38you know, see through people's masks?
1:24:41Are there ways to kind of see through,
1:24:45you know, these masks and read people?
1:24:51>> Well, of yes. Um it it depends on uh the
1:24:56situation but
1:24:59um so
1:25:01you know the um people who are giving
1:25:05you individualized attention
1:25:09and seem to be interested in you, they
1:25:13have to have a quality
1:25:15that is social, that's pro-social,
1:25:19right? Um, of course that can be faked.
1:25:24And there are psychopaths in this world,
1:25:28sociopaths, whatever you want to call
1:25:29them, who are good at listening only to
1:25:33gather information to manipulate with
1:25:35you and hurt you with, but you can
1:25:38usually pick that up in their body
1:25:41language. Right? I tell people
1:25:45that with narcissists, I've said this
1:25:48before, there's a kind of distance in
1:25:50their eyes.
1:25:52They're listening to you. They're
1:25:53talking to you, but there's a deadness
1:25:56there. It's not connecting. And you
1:26:00know, I'm saying something kind of
1:26:01strange here. I mean, eyes are what they
1:26:04are. You know, eyes are just eyes. But
1:26:07you can feel through the eyes
1:26:11something inside a person's soul. I'm
1:26:13sorry to say that. I'm sorry to use a
1:26:14word like soul, but you can. You can see
1:26:18in their eyes whether they have general
1:26:22interest in other people or they're only
1:26:24inside their own mind all the time. You
1:26:27can see that there's something bitter
1:26:29about this. Envy is something you can
1:26:33read in people's eyes. I wrote about
1:26:35that in the laws of human nature.
1:26:37There's this kind of fake look and they
1:26:39seem to be interested in you, but the
1:26:41eyes there's something going on where
1:26:43they're revealing their envy. And in the
1:26:45ancient world, they call it the evil
1:26:47eye. The evil eye was the eye of envy.
1:26:50You can sense that in people's eyes.
1:26:52They reveal so much. I had a chapter in
1:26:55the laws of human nature that I think is
1:26:59important and it was about non-verbal
1:27:01communication.
1:27:03And this is all about non-verbal
1:27:04communication, but it's also about
1:27:07people's patterns of behavior. So, if
1:27:11there is a woman, and I'm just saying
1:27:13woman because it could be a man, who's
1:27:16has all this drama in her life, you
1:27:20know, and she's always been the victim.
1:27:22There's always these terrible men that
1:27:24they've been involved with. They did
1:27:25this, that, the other. And it's also
1:27:27women. They always bitter women who
1:27:29jealous and who've hurt her. and she's
1:27:31had so much drama in her life. There's a
1:27:34pattern there. There's a pattern of what
1:27:36I called in the in 48 laws of power
1:27:40infection,
1:27:42right?
1:27:43They are actually the ones who bring on
1:27:46all the bad things in their life because
1:27:49they love drama. They love having all
1:27:51this emotional around them.
1:27:54Okay? So their actions can also the
1:27:57people's past can reveal that you're
1:27:59dealing with an infecting type. They're
1:28:02too dramatic. Okay. But often times it's
1:28:05the body that reveals it. And you can
1:28:08see
1:28:09the way people the relaxed quality in
1:28:12their body language in in a seduction
1:28:15setting
1:28:17when people mirror each other. So if I
1:28:21move my arm this way, then the woman
1:28:23does that a few minutes later
1:28:26unconsciously she's falling under my
1:28:29spell kind of a because my relaxed
1:28:32behavior is inducing a similar relaxed
1:28:35reaction in her. So to read people's
1:28:39masks, you have to shut off all your
1:28:42intellectual crap, all your verbalizing,
1:28:45all your thinking and be attentive to
1:28:47the body. the body will tell you because
1:28:50I could say anything with my words. I
1:28:52could say, "You're so beautiful. I'm in
1:28:54love with you. You're just wonderful."
1:28:55And I'm lying. But I can't lie with my
1:28:58eyes. I can't lie with my mouth. I can't
1:29:00lie with my body language. It tells the
1:29:03truth. I can say I love you, but my eyes
1:29:05are just kind of dead and it's just it's
1:29:07just a form. It's just words.
1:29:12>> Very interesting. So following these
1:29:14micro expressions to sort of get get a
1:29:17read on people. Okay. So this is my last
1:29:20question. What is the best advice that
1:29:23you would have for someone in their 20s
1:29:26versus someone in their 30s?
1:29:29>> In your 20s,
1:29:31have fun. Don't get be so heavy. Don't
1:29:34be so mono. I've got to have I got to
1:29:37make money. I've got to have a family.
1:29:39I've got to get married. I got to do
1:29:40this, that, and the other.
1:29:42Have some explore.
1:29:44Try things out. Date a few people. Try
1:29:48different jobs. Don't be in such a
1:29:50hurry. Because to be honest with you,
1:29:54your 20s are your best, most exciting
1:29:56period of life. They were for me. And
1:29:59they go by quickly and they're gone. And
1:30:01then you're already in your 30s, your
1:30:0240s, your middle age goes, it's gone.
1:30:05It's very quick. It's very short.
1:30:08I don't mean to just have fun because I
1:30:10want you to be serious. I want you to
1:30:12learn things. I want you to develop
1:30:14skills. I want you to think a little bit
1:30:15about your future. Definitely. So, it's
1:30:18a little bit 50/50. Maybe it's 6040.
1:30:22But don't close yourself off to having
1:30:25an adventure, to exploring, to tr to
1:30:28dating different people, to trying
1:30:30different jobs, to traveling a little
1:30:32bit, and to just soak up experience that
1:30:36you're going to use later in life.
1:30:38That's my advice to people in their 20s.
1:30:41At the same time, you want to be serious
1:30:44and build real skills that now when you
1:30:48turn 30 and life starts to slow down and
1:30:52you have to become more serious. Not
1:30:53necessarily, but you usually do, you're
1:30:57ready. You had skills, you had
1:30:59experiences, you had adventures, you
1:31:02know about the world, and now you're
1:31:03ready to kick ass. You're ready to do
1:31:05something important. In your 30s, it's
1:31:09more like it's a turning point in your
1:31:12life. So when you turn 30, it's like a
1:31:17switches going on. It's not It's sort of
1:31:19silly because it's just a word. I mean,
1:31:23days and years don't actually exist.
1:31:25They're just words. So, we just say the
1:31:28word 30, but it often happens. that
1:31:30happened when I turned 30 that you start
1:31:32thinking a little more seriously about
1:31:35where you're going, about who you are,
1:31:37about where your life is. Okay? And
1:31:41that's where that element of the life's
1:31:44task that I mentioned earlier is so
1:31:46important.
1:31:47You have a solid sense of who you are,
1:31:50of what you want in your life. And
1:31:54now's the time to get it because when
1:31:57you're 30, 31, 32, that's your most
1:31:59creative part. That's when you're your
1:32:02most powerful. For me, it was when I was
1:32:0538, 39. So, it's not the same for
1:32:07everybody, but it's the time to get a
1:32:10little more serious with your life and
1:32:12to to reassess and to understand. I had
1:32:16these adventures. I developed these
1:32:18skills. And now I'm gonna bring it all
1:32:20together and I'm going to be a great
1:32:22podcaster. I'm gonna be a I'm gonna
1:32:24write books. I'm gonna win elections.
1:32:27I'm going to change the world. I'm going
1:32:29to organize this kind of social thing
1:32:31going on. That's that's would be my
1:32:34advice to people in their 20s and 30s.
1:32:37>> I love that. I mean, I've heard your
1:32:39advice for people in their 20s before,
1:32:41but never in their 30s. And it's great.
1:32:43Thank you so much, Robert. That was
1:32:45incredible. This whole conversation was
1:32:48so valuable and just so amazing. I think
1:32:52people are going to find it very
1:32:54inspiring and get a lot of insight and
1:32:57knowledge from it. So, thank you again
1:32:59for taking the time. Huge fan and I
1:33:02encourage
1:33:04>> I encourage everyone to read your books
1:33:05as well.
1:33:07>> It was great. Great questions. You're
1:33:09very good at this. So I I I had a good
1:33:12time

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