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Robert Durst Was Finally Convicted. His Victims Waited Decades for Justice. — Transcript

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0:00This is Maya. This is still unanswered.
0:03You probably know the outline. A wealthy
0:06heir, three deaths across decades, a
0:09documentary that changed everything. And
0:11a bathroom mic that, well, [snorts] what
0:15the hell did I do? Killed them all, of
0:18course. Those are Robert Durst's words
0:21captured on tape in 2015. Words that
0:24look like confession, but leave us with
0:26a lot more than a clean ending. Today,
0:29Leon Dr. Leon Carter joins me to walk
0:33the line between what we've proven, what
0:35we suspect, and what remains painfully,
0:38maddeningly unresolved. Leon, thanks for
0:41being here.
0:42>> Thanks, Maya. It's good to be here. This
0:45case, it's one of those rare ones where
0:48law, money, and media collide in ways
0:51that keep producing new questions even
0:53after a conviction and a death.
0:56>> Yeah. And to be clear upfront, our focus
1:00in this episode is not the lurid
1:02spectacle. It's the victims, Kathy
1:05McCormack, Susan Burman, Morris Black,
1:08and the ways institutions failed them.
1:11We'll thread the timeline and stop to
1:13examine the legal choices that let Durst
1:16slip between the cracks. Leon, before we
1:19dig into the crimes, can you give
1:21listeners a tight portrait of who Robert
1:24Durst was, family, upbringing, and the
1:27psychological picture investigators in
1:30courts had to work with?
1:32>> Yeah. And to be clear upfront, our focus
1:35in this episode is not the lurid
1:37spectacle. It's the victims: Kathy
1:40McCormack, Susan Berman, Morris Black,
1:43and the ways institutions failed them.
1:46We'll thread the timeline and stop to
1:48examine the legal choices that let Durst
1:51slip between the cracks. Leon, before we
1:54dig into the crimes, can you give
1:56listeners a tight portrait of who Robert
1:58Durst was, family, upbringing, and the
2:02psychological picture investigators and
2:04courts had to work with. briefly. Born
2:071943,
2:09eldest son of Seymour Durst, the Durst
2:12organization controls huge New York real
2:14estate holdings. He had a traumatic
2:17childhood event. His mother, Bernice,
2:20fell or jumped from their roof when he
2:22was seven, an incident Durst later
2:24described as formative. Seymour
2:27originally groomed Robert to run the
2:29company, but by the 1980s, the family
2:32removed him from succession because of
2:34erratic behavior. He was smart, Lehi,
2:38then an MBA at UCLA, socially awkward,
2:41prone to disappearances, and oddly
2:44compelled to petty theft despite his
2:46wealth. Clinicians and defense teams
2:49later suggested traits consistent with
2:52autism spectrum disorder, but whether
2:54that explains criminal behavior is a
2:56separate question.
2:58>> Right? And listeners, keep that
3:00separation in mind. Mental health
3:03descriptions can explain certain social
3:05behaviors, but they don't absolve
3:08criminal acts. Leon, you said wealth and
3:11media collide. We'll get to media later,
3:15but money was a constant. Trust funds,
3:18lawyers, movement across states. How did
3:21that wealth actually change how
3:23investigations played out early on? Take
3:26the disappearance of Kathy for example.
3:28>> Kathy's disappearance in 1982 is a
3:31textbook example. She was his wife. She
3:35had been accepted to medical school. She
3:37was seeking independence. Durst presents
3:40multiple versions of that night. He says
3:42he dropped her at the Katona train
3:44station. He says she called in sick the
3:46next day. But crucially, he didn't
3:49report her missing. Friends did. At the
3:52time, local police largely accepted his
3:55narrative. That's not just cultural
3:58deference. It's structural. The Durst
4:00name carried clout. Without a body,
4:03authorities treated Kathy as a missing
4:06person, not a presumptive homicide,
4:08which shifted the investigative
4:10resources and approach. Wealth can close
4:13doors. Access to top attorneys,
4:16influence over officials, and it can
4:18also skew the initial credibility
4:21afforded to a suspect.
4:23>> There are a lot of moments in that early
4:25story that make me uneasy. For instance,
4:29the so-called call to her medical school
4:31that supposedly came from Kathy on
4:34February 1st, the day after she
4:36vanished. Yes, that call became a core
4:40part of the alibi narrative for years.
4:43The claim was Kathy called in sick,
4:46therefore she was alive and had left
4:49town. Decades later, prosecutors allege
4:53that call was a fake, orchestrated by
4:55Durst and facilitated by Susan Berman to
4:59create cover. If true, it's a blatant,
5:02deliberate attempt to manipulate the
5:05official record mere hours after a
5:08disappearance. It also shows how small
5:11acts, one phony phone call, can
5:14radically alter the trajectory of an
5:16investigation when combined with
5:18institutional deference.
5:20>> So, let's slow down and tell Cathy's
5:23story properly. Who she was, how the
5:26marriage deteriorated, and the night she
5:29disappeared.
5:30Catherine Kathy McCormick, born 1952,
5:35put her life on hold early to support
5:37Durst. eventually enrolled in medical
5:39school and reportedly grew independent
5:42which led to escalating abuse. She'd
5:45confided to friends that she was afraid
5:47of Robert. On January 31st, 1982, she
5:52disappeared. She never made the
5:54appointment with a friend in Manhattan.
5:56No body was found. Leon, how did
5:59investigators miss signs of domestic
6:01abuse and motive at the time?
6:03>> A combination of factors. First, the
6:07cultural environment of the early 1980s,
6:10domestic abuse was often treated as a
6:12private matter. Second, the Durst family
6:15status created a kind of protective
6:18sheen. Third, missing person
6:20investigations are resource limited.
6:23Without a body, the presumption often
6:25defaults to voluntary disappearance
6:28unless there's compelling counter
6:30evidence. There were earlier reports and
6:32witness statements suggesting abuse,
6:35even threats involving a gun, but they
6:37weren't assembled and prioritized as
6:40part of a homicide theory. That's a
6:42prosecutorial and investigative failure,
6:45not a mystery of human behavior.
6:48>> And then Susan Bur comes into the frame.
6:51She's the one who could help Durst with
6:54stories, possibly the alibi call. Tell
6:58listeners who Susan was and why she
7:01mattered.
7:02>> Susan Burman was a writer, the daughter
7:04of a Las Vegas mob figure, and a
7:07longtime friend of Roberts, dating back
7:09to their UCLA days. She was fiercely
7:12loyal, financially dependent on him at
7:15times, and often acted as his
7:17spokesperson. In 1982, she allegedly
7:21helped either by making the phony call
7:23to the medical school or by assisting in
7:26other ways to create a narrative that
7:28Kathy left willingly. That allegation,
7:32if true, pivots Susan from friend to
7:35enabler in investigators eyes, but it's
7:38complicated because she later becomes a
7:40murder victim herself.
7:42>> Complicated is a generous word. In 2000,
7:47Susan Berman was found shot in the back
7:49of the head in her Benedict Canyon home
7:51on Christmas Eve, execution style. No
7:55sign of forced entry. It read as someone
7:57she trusted being let in. Leon
8:00prosecutors later argued she was about
8:02to be interviewed about Cathy's
8:04disappearance, and that might have
8:06motivated Durus to silence her. How did
8:09we get from suspicion to a full murder
8:12charge almost 15 years later? Two major
8:16investigative elements converged. First,
8:20renewed interest in Cathy's case.
8:22Westchester authorities were
8:24re-examining the old files around the
8:26turn of the millennium. Susan had
8:29knowledge of the marriage and the
8:31alleged alibi fabrication. Second, the
8:34documentary The Jinx unearthed new
8:37documentary evidence that directly tied
8:40Durst to an anonymous cadaavver letter
8:42sent to Beverly Hills police.
8:45Specifically, a misspelling on an
8:47envelope and handwriting similarities
8:49between that anonymous letter and
8:51Durst's own handwriting on an envelope
8:54to Susan. That length made Durst a
8:57person of keen interest in Susan's
8:59murder and gave prosecutors probable
9:02cause they lacked in 2000. Let's pause
9:05on that misspelling detail because it's
9:08one of those tiny and huge elements. In
9:11the anonymous letter sent to Beverly
9:13Hills police, Beverly Hills was spelled
9:16with an extra e. Durst had used that
9:19same misspelling in an old envelope
9:21addressed to Susan. Jerky's team, the
9:24Jinx, put those two envelopes side by
9:26side on camera. What kind of evidentiary
9:30weight does that sort of handwriting
9:32match have in court?
9:33>> Handwriting analysis is circumstantial
9:36evidence, useful, but not conclusive on
9:39its own. It's strongest when combined
9:42with other factors. Motive, opportunity,
9:45timeline, and corroborating witness
9:48testimony. In this case, the handwriting
9:51similarity, the misspelling, plus
9:54documentary footage of Durst's
9:56incriminating statements, and his long
9:58history with Susan created a cumulative
10:01picture. Prosecutors don't need a single
10:04smoking gun. They need a mosaic. In
10:07Susan's case, the mosaic convinced a
10:10jury in 2021. though. We'll talk about
10:13the documentary's role in a second
10:15because it raises ethical questions
10:17about media and evidence.
10:19>> Yes. But before we jump to the jinx, I
10:22want to circle over to Galveastston
10:24Morris Black because that trial and the
10:27aqu quiddle is so important to
10:29understanding how he managed to avoid
10:31prison for so long. In 2001, body parts
10:35of Morris Black were found floating in
10:38Galveastston Bay. Robert Durst was
10:40living nearby under an alias disguised
10:43as a mute woman. He admitted to
10:45dismembering the body, but claimed
10:47self-defense. Leon, walk us through the
10:50prosecution's challenges in that trial
10:53and why a jury acquitted him despite his
10:56own admission.
10:57>> The Galveastston case is in a sense a
11:00legal masterclass in strategy and a
11:03cautionary tale. The prosecution charged
11:06him with capital murder, meaning the
11:08jury had to find him guilty beyond a
11:10reasonable doubt of intentional murder.
11:13Critical problem: Black's head was never
11:16recovered. Without the skull, forensic
11:19pathologists couldn't definitively
11:21reconstruct the exact circumstances of
11:24the fatal wound. Was it a single
11:26accidental discharge or an execution
11:29style shot? That uncertainty undermined
11:32the ability to disprove Durst's
11:35self-defense claim. Meanwhile, the
11:37defense, led by Dick Duran, framed
11:40everything as an accident followed by
11:43panic and poor judgment. Durst's own
11:45testimony admitting dismemberment was
11:48perversely helpful. It made the story
11:51coherent. He panicked. He dismembered.
11:54He disposed. So jurors could accept
11:56unintentional killing plus a messed up
11:59response. The charging decision not to
12:02include lesser counts like manslaughter
12:04arguably boxed the prosecution in.
12:07Jurors faced an all or nothing choice
12:10and chose doubt.
12:11>> It's almost surreal. He admits to
12:14dismembering the neighbor and yet he's
12:17acquitted of murder. Huh. It raises the
12:20question we keep returning to. Would an
12:23ordinary person who did that have been
12:26treated so leniently? Leon, we're not
12:29just talking about legal technicalities.
12:31We're talking about the appearance of
12:33justice.
12:35>> Appearance and reality both matter.
12:38Wealth bought access to the best defense
12:40strategies certainly, but look at the
12:43evidence. A missing skull, holes in
12:46forensic certainty, a particular
12:48prosectorial charging strategy, all of
12:51which are structural issues not unique
12:54to the wealthy. However, the resources
12:57to exploit those structural
12:59vulnerabilities, expert witnesses,
13:02private investigators, sophisticated
13:04defense teams are more available to the
13:07wealthy. So, while an ordinary person
13:10might have been prosecuted differently,
13:12it's not solely because he's wealthy,
13:15it's because wealth interacts with
13:17fragile evidentiary conditions and human
13:20juries in complicated, often inequitable
13:24ways. Listeners, this is the heart of
13:27why we call this show still unanswered.
13:30The Galveastston aqu quiddle left a
13:32moral outrage that public attention
13:35could not entirely dissipate. And then
13:38the jinx comes along. Andrew Jerki makes
13:41a film. Durst participates in
13:43interviews. And in 2015, a bathroom mic
13:47picks up him saying, "Killed them all."
13:50Of course. Leon, from a prosecutotorial
13:53point of view, what did the Jinx do? Did
13:56it help, hurt, or both?
13:58>> Both. Definitely both. On the positive
14:02side, the Jinx uncovered the handwriting
14:04evidence and placed pressure on
14:06investigators to re-examine cold files.
14:10The show generated enormous public
14:12interest that arguably pushed
14:14authorities into action. On the negative
14:17side, there are real ethical concerns.
14:20Documentary filmmakers are not police.
14:23They have editorial control. Critics
14:26argue that the team withheld the
14:28bathroom audio, or at least didn't turn
14:30it over immediately, and that editing
14:33choices shaped perception. Defense
14:35council used that to paint it as gotcha
14:38journalism. Yet, without the show, there
14:41might never have been the same momentum
14:43to arrest Durst for Burman's murder. So
14:46it turns on the balance of priorities,
14:49public interest, journalistic duty, and
14:52the rights of the accused. And that's a
14:54thorny debate.
14:56>> Right? Thorny is an understatement. I
14:59want to quote something Jereki said in
15:01interviews. When the editors found that
15:03bathroom audio, they screamed. But he
15:06also acknowledged the show fundamentally
15:09changed Durst's public image, creating a
15:11narrative the prosecution could use.
15:14Leon, how do courts typically treat
15:16evidence generated through media
15:18projects? Is it admissible? And was the
15:21bathroom audio actually used in trial?
15:24>> Material produced by journalists can be
15:27admissible, but the prosecution has to
15:30demonstrate authenticity, chain of
15:32custody, and relevance. Just like any
15:35other evidence, the bathroom audio was
15:37not played in full as a taped
15:39confession. Instead, prosecutors used it
15:43as part of their narrative and relied on
15:45testimony and other documentary
15:47evidence. The Jinx footage, on camera
15:50interviews, was used at trial.
15:53Ultimately, the jurors heard both
15:55documentary excerpts and witness
15:58testimony that together formed a
16:00coherent picture. But the ethical
16:03question lingers. Do filmmakers become
16:06quasi investigators? and when they find
16:09incriminating material, do they have a
16:12duty to immediately provide it to law
16:14enforcement? The answers aren't
16:16clear-cut.
16:17>> There's also the argument that the show
16:20might have prejudiced potential jurors.
16:22Yet, here we are. Durst was convicted in
16:252021 for Susan Burman's murder,
16:28sentenced to life without parole, and
16:30then died in custody in 2022 while
16:33appealing. His death in custody led to
16:36the Burman conviction being vacated
16:38under California law because the appeal
16:41was pending. So legally, the conviction
16:43is gone, though the factual record
16:46remains public. Leon, how does that
16:48legal technicality sit with you? Is
16:51justice served when a conviction is
16:53vacated because a defendant dies
16:55midappeal?
16:56>> Legally, the doctrine exists to prevent
16:59a conviction from becoming final when an
17:01appeal is unresolved. It's about the
17:04defendant's right to a conclusive
17:06judgment, but pragmatically, it is
17:08unsatisfying for victim's families. A
17:11vacated conviction doesn't erase the
17:14trial record or the jury's finding. It's
17:17a legal formality that acknowledges an
17:19uncompleted appellet process.
17:22Emotionally and morally, families feel
17:25cheated because public perception of
17:27accountability is muddied. So the law
17:29serves an abstract fairness concept but
17:32doesn't provide closure for those
17:34harmed.
17:35>> That's important to say. Now I'd like to
17:39move to some systemic themes. Money and
17:42power, investigative missteps, the role
17:45of co-conspirators or enablers. Let's
17:48start with the pattern. Across Kathy,
17:51Susan, and Morris, we see missing or
17:54crucially absent evidence. No body, no
17:58head, and then a decad's late link. How
18:02often do these no body or partial body
18:05cases stall like Cathy's did? And has
18:08forensics changed? Nobody cases are
18:11notoriously challenging. Historically,
18:14prosecutors were hesitant to bring
18:16murder charges without a body, but we've
18:19seen successful nobody convictions where
18:22circumstantial evidence is overwhelming.
18:25phone records, DNA traces, financial
18:28motives, witness testimony. Forensics
18:31has advanced. DNA, digital footprints,
18:35cell site analysis, and modern forensic
18:38chronology can build strong cases, even
18:41absent remains. However, in 1982, the
18:45toolkit was limited. Cathy's case
18:48suffered from being early in that
18:50technological arc and from initial
18:53investigative decisions that didn't
18:55prioritize homicide. So yes, procedures
18:58and tools have improved, but the
19:01structural decisions made at the start
19:03of an investigation remain critical. and
19:06the role of enablers. Susan is a unique
19:09case because she may have helped Durst
19:12cover his tracks and then got killed. In
19:15part two of the Jinx and later
19:17reporting, the narrative expands to
19:20include a circle of people who enabled
19:22Durst, lawyers, friends, family. How do
19:26we think about complicity here? Are
19:28these criminal accompllices, moral
19:31accompllices, or both?
19:33>> It varies. There's a spectrum. Someone
19:35who knowingly participates in
19:37fabricating an alibi could be criminally
19:40liable as an accomplice or accessory
19:42after the fact depending on intent and
19:45jurisdiction. Moral complicity extends
19:48to those who turn a blind eye despite
19:51knowing or suspecting wrongdoing,
19:53friends, family, or employees who
19:56rationalize or hide evidence. Legally,
19:59however, proving criminal culpability
20:01requires evidence of knowledge and
20:04intent. That's often hard to establish
20:07years later. Ethically, though, enablers
20:10bear a moral responsibility that the law
20:13doesn't always capture, and we should
20:15scrutinize those dynamics.
20:17>> Let's put some human faces on this
20:20because this is a podcast that tries to
20:22center victims. Kathy's family pressed
20:26for decades. Susan, her murder was
20:30violent, personal. She was killed in her
20:33home on Christmas Eve. Morris Black was
20:36elderly and had his head never found. No
20:40dignity in death really. Talk to me
20:43about what justice would look like for
20:45these families. Now,
20:47>> justice can be different things. For
20:50Cathy's family, justice would be knowing
20:52where her remains are and having a legal
20:55conclusion that connects the truth to a
20:57lasting accountability. For Susan's
21:00family, a completed conviction would be
21:03closure. They had a conviction, but its
21:05vacator complicates that. For Morris
21:08Black's family, the Galveastston aqu
21:10quiddle left many feeling unheard.
21:13Beyond legal outcomes, justice often
21:16involves truthtelling, transparency from
21:18institutions, and reforms that prevent
21:21recurrence, improving missing person
21:24protocols, better crossjurisdiction
21:26coordination, and accountability for
21:29investigative failures. Those are
21:31systems level remedies that can be
21:33secondary but lasting forms of justice.
21:36>> I want to probe one reform you
21:38mentioned, crossjurisdiction
21:40coordination. Durst jumped from New York
21:43to California to Texas. How did
21:46fractured jurisdictional boundaries help
21:48him? And what would better coordination
21:50have looked like in the 1980s and 1990s?
21:54>> Research sharing and centralized case
21:57files could have helped. In 1982,
22:01databases were largely paperbased and
22:03regional. A coordinated proactive
22:06inquiry sharing suspect information,
22:09patterns of behavior, and potential
22:11connections might have connected the
22:13dots earlier. In practice, you need a
22:16mechanism, multi-jurisdiction task
22:19forces, better incentives for federal
22:22involvement in cases with interstate
22:24elements, and modern digital
22:26infrastructure for immediate
22:28cross-checking. Even today,
22:30institutional culture matters. Police
22:33departments must prioritize
22:35collaboration over territorial
22:38instincts.
22:39>> Listeners, we're approaching the halfway
22:41mark of the episode, and we've covered a
22:44lot, but there are still bloodlines to
22:46trace, some rhetorical questions to keep
22:49banging. Did the Durst family know more
22:52than they said? Did Deborah Lee Sherin,
22:55his second wife, play a role in
22:57shielding him? Were there other victims?
23:01And there's that bombshell bathroom
23:03line, killed them all, which suggests
23:06more than three incidents. Leon, from a
23:09patterns perspective, does that line
23:12open up credible fears that he killed
23:14more people, or is it bravado?
23:17>> It raises legitimate concern. The phrase
23:20could be bluster, a fantasy, or a
23:23confession. it matches a documented
23:26pattern of violent acts, cover-ups, and
23:28a capacity to get away with them. That
23:31said, as a forensic or prosecutorial
23:34professional, you can't convict on an
23:36utterance alone. You need corroborating
23:39evidence, but the line should prompt
23:42serious re-examination of unsolved cases
23:45that have dur similarities. Missing
23:48persons in his circles, unexplained
23:51disappearances proximate to him
23:53historically. It should be an
23:55investigative starting point, not a
23:58terminal conclusion.
23:59>> Let's move to some of the more
24:01uncomfortable ethical questions about
24:03the jinx and true crime media. The show
24:06arguably broke the case, handwriting
24:09match, airring patterns, and producing
24:12the hot mic moment. But critics say the
24:14filmmakers withheld evidence and edited
24:17in ways that might have misled the
24:19public or even shaped later testimony.
24:22Where do you stand on the duty of
24:24documentarians to hand over findings to
24:27law enforcement?
24:28>> Documentarians have journalistic duties,
24:31but they're not mandated law enforcement
24:33agents. Ethically, if they find evidence
24:36of a violent crime or an imminent risk,
24:38many journalists would turn it over. But
24:41the line blurs when that evidence is
24:43also central to their narrative project.
24:46The problem is twofold. First,
24:49withholding potentially exculpatory or
24:52inculpatory evidence could affect
24:54suspects rights. Second, editing creates
24:57a narrative that might calibrate public
25:00perception and even a potential jury
25:02pool. I favor transparency.
25:05Documentarians should coordinate with
25:08law enforcement on critical evidence
25:10while preserving journalistic
25:12independence and considering the safety
25:14and rights of all involved. It's messy,
25:17but secrecy in highstakes criminal
25:20matters is dangerous.
25:22>> Messy indeed.
25:25I want to talk about the defense
25:27strategies that kept getting used.
25:30Pathizing Durst Asberger's claims, the
25:33eccentric rich man narrative,
25:36fabricating alternative stories, and
25:39attacking witness credibility. At the
25:42Burman trial, Darren argued that Durst
25:44found Susan already dead and panicked.
25:48How often do these defense narratives
25:50succeed, and how do prosecutors respond?
25:53Defense strategies often rely on
25:56creating plausible alternative stories
25:58or undermining the prosecution's
26:00narrative. The Asberger's claim is
26:03twofold. Explain behavior and elicit
26:06sympathy or reasonable doubt. It's a
26:09risky strategy because jurors may see it
26:11as excusem. Prosecutors respond by
26:15showing motive opportunities and
26:17inconsistencies in the defendant's
26:19explanations, building a timeline, using
26:22corroborating witnesses, and introducing
26:25physical evidence. Success depends on
26:28the strength of the cumulative evidence.
26:30In Durst's case, the combination of
26:33documentary evidence, witness testimony,
26:36and pattern of behavior evidence
26:38overcame the defense in the Burman
26:40trial, at least through the jury verdict
26:42stage.
26:43>> You mentioned pattern of behavior
26:45evidence, sometimes called modus
26:48operandi or other acts evidence. That's
26:51a tricky area because it's prejuditial
26:53if used poorly. How did prosecutors
26:56handle that in Burman's case? They tried
26:59to walk the line carefully. Pattern
27:02evidence is admissible when it makes a
27:04fact like intent, motive, or identity
27:08more likely. Prosecutors showed a
27:11pattern. Durst's history with Kathy, a
27:14phony call around her disappearance, his
27:17relationship with Susan, and his
27:19presence in locus
27:22deaths or disappearances.
27:24They use the documentary material to tie
27:27these threads without overtly saying,
27:30"He did it before, so he did it again,"
27:33which jurors could misuse. Evidence
27:36admissibility is always litigated, so
27:39prosecutors had to be strategic and
27:42narrowly tailored.
27:43>> Let's return to Kathy for a moment.
27:46[snorts] In 2021, Westchester County
27:49indicted Durst on seconddegree murder in
27:51her death, alleging that he killed her
27:54and that the 1982 medical school call
27:56was part of the cover up. That case
27:59didn't go to trial because Durst died.
28:02What consequences does it leave for
28:04Cathy's family legally and emotionally?
28:07>> Legally, without a completed
28:10prosecution, there's no criminal
28:12conviction. Those civil suits can
28:14continue. Emotionally, families often
28:18report that an indictment alone doesn't
28:20equate to closure. It's a double-edged
28:23sword. The indictment validated
28:26suspicions and brought official
28:28recognition, but the lack of a trial or
28:31an unvac
28:33frustrates the desire for a definitive
28:35public reckoning. For public policy, it
28:39underscores the importance of timely
28:41investigations.
28:43When cases are delayed for decades, the
28:45chance of true legal closure diminishes.
28:48>> You mentioned civil suits. Cathy's
28:51family filed a $100 million wrongful
28:53death suit earlier. Can civil litigation
28:56be a path to accountability when
28:58criminal trials stall or never happen?
29:01>> Civil suits have a different burden,
29:03preponderance of evidence rather than
29:05beyond a reasonable doubt. So, they're
29:08sometimes more achievable. Civil
29:10litigation can impose financial
29:12penalties, create formal findings in
29:14court records and force discovery that
29:17uncovers new facts. However, civil suits
29:21don't carry criminal penalties like
29:23prison, and they require resources and
29:25time for families seeking truth and
29:28recognition. They are a viable tool, but
29:31they don't substitute for criminal
29:33justice when public safety and
29:35punishment are priorities. I want to
29:38introduce a human anecdote here. Small
29:41but telling. In the years after Kathy
29:44vanished, the family fought to have her
29:46declared dead for estate and burial
29:49reasons. The bureaucracy of declaring
29:51someone dead without a body is cold. It
29:56took decades and petitions. What's the
29:59human cost of those procedural hurdles?
30:02>> The human cost is profound. Not being
30:05able to grieve properly, no burial site
30:08to visit, endless uncertainty. Those are
30:12real psychological harms. Legal
30:15processes intended for order can become
30:18instruments of prolonging pain. There's
30:21also financial harm. Estate disputes,
30:25unresolved property claims, and the
30:27practicalities of settling a life. The
30:30law needs mechanisms to handle probable
30:33death cases with both rigor and
30:36compassion to mitigate these harms.
30:38>> Leyon, I want to ask a harder question.
30:42If we rewind and change one thing,
30:46what's the single most consequential
30:49investigative or prosectorial choice
30:52that if done differently might have
30:54altered the arc of Durst's freedom?
30:57charging strategy in Galveastston,
30:59earlier suspicion in Cathy's case, or
31:02something else.
31:03>> It's hard to pick one, but the
31:05Galveastston charging strategy looms
31:08large because it resulted in a quiddle
31:11despite Durst admission to killing and
31:13dismembering Black. If prosecutors had
31:16offered lesser included charges like
31:18manslaughter, jurors could have
31:20convicted on a slower gradation of
31:23culpability, that might have led to
31:25significant prison time, preventing
31:27later events. Equally, if Westchester
31:31authorities had pursued a more
31:32aggressive homicide investigation early
31:35on into Cathy's disappearance,
31:37collecting and preserving evidence,
31:39scrutinizing the call, and applying
31:41pressure on Burman and the family, Durst
31:44might have been arrested decades
31:46earlier. So, both decisions intersect
31:49with resources and judgment errors
31:52across jurisdictions.
31:54>> Let's get into the what remains
31:56unanswered list. We'll go through it
31:58carefully because this is the episode's
32:01heart. One, where is Cathy's body? Two,
32:06was Susan complicit in the alibi call or
32:08merely a friend who covered for him and
32:11later became a liability? Three, did
32:14Durst have other victims? Four, how
32:17complicit were family members and
32:19associates? Five, what is the ethical
32:22line for documentarians? Leon, take the
32:26first one. Where could Cathy's remains
32:28be and why haven't they been found?
32:31>> Speculative answers always. If Durst
32:34killed Cathy at the lakeside home, the
32:37body could have been disposed of in
32:39remote locations. Hauntingly common
32:41choices are bodies sunk in water, buried
32:44on private property, or moved to a
32:47different geographic region. Durst had
32:50mobility and resources to move remains.
32:53The failure to find a body often results
32:55from initial investigative gaps, lack of
32:58immediate search, not preserving the
33:00crime scene, lack of inter agency
33:03coordination. Over time, decomposition,
33:06environmental changes, and human
33:08development can erase evidence. Forensic
33:11entomology or soil analysis can
33:14sometimes find traces decades later, but
33:17it's an uphill battle.
33:19>> Okay. on Susan. Was she an accomplice or
33:23a victim? There's evidence she got money
33:27from Durst, may have made a call and
33:30then ends up murdered. What do we make
33:33of that?
33:34>> She likely occupied both roles at
33:36different times. She appears to have
33:38assisted Durst, financially supported,
33:41perhaps facilitating the medical school
33:43call. So, there's an element of
33:45complicity, but that doesn't justify
33:48murder. Moreover, complicity doesn't
33:51always equate to full knowledge of the
33:53scope of a crime. She may have believed
33:56she was helping a friend cover a lie
33:58rather than helping to hide a homicide.
34:01That ambiguity makes her a complex
34:04figure, both an enabler and a victim.
34:07>> And about other victims, has there been
34:10credible evidence that he killed beyond
34:13these three incidents? There are rumors
34:16and some circumstantial connections to
34:19other suspicious disappearances, but
34:21nothing that rises to the level of proof
34:24that would sustain charges. The bathroom
34:27line fuels that speculation. Of course,
34:30investigators should treat every
34:32unresolved disappearance within his
34:34orbit seriously. Old statements, travel
34:38records, and associates memories can be
34:41re-examined. The absence of proof is not
34:44proof of absence, but you need more than
34:47conjecture.
34:48>> Complicity of family and associates.
34:51Some reporting suggest the Durst family
34:53knew or at least suspected but chose to
34:56preserve corporate and social status.
34:59Training prosecutors to subpoena family
35:02records or depositions is tricky. How do
35:05we balance private family concerns with
35:08public accountability? Subpoenas and
35:11depositions are tools, but they must be
35:14used judiciously.
35:16Investigators need probable cause to
35:18compel testimony or records. They can't
35:21simply blanket a wealthy family with
35:24intrusive demands without a legal basis.
35:27At the same time, the public interest
35:29can warrant vigorous inquiry into
35:32potential obstruction. It's a delicate
35:34balance between civil liberties and
35:37seeking truth. Transparency for powerful
35:40families should be heavier when there's
35:42plausible link to criminal activity, but
35:45legal standards still apply.
35:48>> Let's close on the ethics of true crime
35:50media. We're both grateful the jinx
35:53existed because without it, Susan's
35:56murder might remain unsolved, but we
35:58also have to critique the ways producers
36:01sometimes play with narrative for drama.
36:04If you could give one guideline to
36:06documentarians covering potential
36:08crimes, what would it be?
36:10>> I would say prioritize victims and due
36:13process equally. When you uncover
36:16evidence of a crime, coordinate promptly
36:19with appropriate authorities while
36:21maintaining editorial independence. Be
36:24transparent about what we know, what we
36:27can infer, or what we'll never prove.
36:30Resist the temptation to edit for
36:32maximum shock at the expense of clarity.
36:36Your storytelling choices have realworld
36:39consequences. People's liberty and
36:42victim's lives hang in the balance.
36:45>> Powerful. We're coming up on the final
36:48segment. I want to offer listeners some
36:50concrete, still unanswered takeaways and
36:53action points. Accountability reforms,
36:56investigative recommendations, and what
36:59families and journalists can do. Leon,
37:02give me two institutional reforms you
37:04think would make a real difference in
37:06similar cases.
37:08>> First, mandatory rapid response task
37:11forces for missing adults with credible
37:14abuse indicators. teams that combine
37:16local police, state investigators, and
37:19federal liaons to avoid jurisdictional
37:22silos. Second, improved databasing and
37:26evidence preservation protocols that
37:29survive personnel changes so important
37:32documents, recorded calls, and physical
37:34evidence are centralized and searchable
37:37across counties and states. Both
37:40measures would reduce the risk that
37:42early mistakes calcify into permanent
37:45failures.
37:46>> And two practical steps for journalists
37:49and families.
37:50>> For journalists, adopt clear protocols
37:53for handling criminal evidence. What
37:56gets shared, when, and how you document
37:59chain of custody. For families, demand
38:02transparency. keep meticulous records,
38:06dates, names, calls, and push for
38:09independent review when they feel a case
38:11is being dismissed due to a suspect's
38:14identity or wealth.
38:15>> Maya, again, listeners, if you take
38:18nothing else away today, take this. The
38:21Durst Saga is both a study in a single
38:24man's allegedly violent life and a
38:27mirror held up to our institutions,
38:30police, prosecutors, media, and the
38:33legal system. They all make choices, and
38:36those choices have human victims. Leon,
38:40before we sign off, one last question.
38:43If you had to answer in one sentence, do
38:46you think real justice was achieved in
38:48this case? one sentence. Legally, not
38:52fully. Some accountability was achieved,
38:56but the vacated conviction and the
38:58unresolved questions around Kathy mean
39:01the system fell short of delivering
39:04complete justice.
39:05>> Short and devastating.
39:08Thank you, Leon, for walking this with
39:10me. Careful, skeptical, and forensic.
39:15And thank you, listeners, for sitting
39:17with ambiguity. It's uncomfortable, but
39:20it's necessary.
39:22We'll include source links and a reading
39:25list in the episode notes for anyone who
39:27wants to dig deeper. If you have tips,
39:31memories, or information related to any
39:33of these cases, please contact
39:36Westchester DA's cold case unit or your
39:39local authorities, not us. This story
39:42isn't a puzzle for entertainment. It's a
39:45series of real people's lives. I'm Maya
39:48Ellison. Thank you for listening to
39:51Still Unanswered.
39:52>> Thank you, Maya. Take care, everyone.

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