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Rishi Sunak & Akshata Murty: Power, Identity & Why Patience Beats Ambition | Nikhil | People by WTF — Transcript

by Nikhil Kamath · 31,090 words · 5,261 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:01[music]
0:10[music]
0:19[music]
0:33[music]
0:41[music]
0:51[music]
0:54>> I'm not going to talk to Akshata like
0:55she's Rishi's wife [music] or Narayan
0:57Murthy's daughter.
1:00Uh,
1:01forget Rishi and your dad.
1:03Where does Akshata's validation come
1:04from?
1:06From
1:07genuinely
1:09having impact. [music]
1:10>> How was the journey, Rishi, from
1:14going from being a
1:16person who was at Goldman Sachs to
1:18becoming the Prime Minister of UK?
1:20>> [music]
1:21>> I know it's a big question.
1:22>> It's a big question.
1:23>> Yeah.
1:24A lot more young people need to
1:26participate in politics.
1:28For somebody sitting on the outside,
1:31>> [music]
1:31>> a young guy who wants to be in politics,
1:34how hard is it?
1:37Is it a [music] Is it that one person
1:39can actually change stuff?
1:54Tell me when we start, huh?
1:57You started?
1:59Sure?
2:02Okay.
2:03Sorry, we I wouldn't mind it. Is it
2:04possible to get fresh lime soda?
2:06>> Yeah, of course.
2:06>> If If that's If that's doable, I'll have
2:08sweet. If that's
2:10a go. Do you want salt in it as well? I
2:12actually just sweet would be good.
2:14So, I've been in Alibaug the last few
2:17days. I just got back. Just now. Which
2:20is Which is
2:21>> Pardon my geography. Which is a
2:2330-minute boat ride from Bombay. Okay.
2:27Yeah. And that's like a like a hill
2:29station? It's much like Bombay, but no
2:32people.
2:33>> [laughter]
2:34>> So, like the Hamptons?
2:36It's not prettier than Bombay. It's just
2:39emptier than Bombay. So, you go there
2:41for a little bit of No, we have this
2:44thing we are running called Foundry,
2:47which is like a residential college for
2:51entrepreneurship, a 3-month course.
2:54>> Okay.
2:55So, about 20 to 30 people get selected
2:58>> Yeah, so each cohort is 20 to 30.
3:00>> Yeah. Like the Y Combinator, I think.
3:02Yeah, very much. They get a half a
3:03million dollars, they get
3:06to build the business while they live
3:07there in one house for 3 months.
3:12So, I was with the current batch.
3:14It's a good place to do it near Bombay
3:16cuz it's empty and nobody like
3:18And do Did you set it up? Yeah.
3:21>> Yeah. How many batches have you
3:23Oh, this is the first batch.
3:25First batch.
3:26>> That's super exciting. Very exciting.
3:28>> anything else like that in India? Y
3:29Combinator and these guys are not here,
3:31right?
3:31>> Yeah. And this one is very consumer
3:33focused. So, we're building 20 consumer
3:37brands. So, one will be a candy company,
3:39one is a toothpaste company,
3:42>> [laughter]
3:44>> We started Cat Adventures doing that
3:46kind of thing, yeah. So, that you One is
3:48a candy company? Yeah, one is a
3:50toothpaste company, one just makes
3:52jeans, one makes chocolates of a certain
3:55kind.
3:56Very interesting. And there's normally
3:59VCs don't necessarily rush into consumer
4:02companies, right? So, it's nice to have
4:03a source of not just capital, but deep
4:07passion and expertise for this space.
4:10>> Yeah. And in India, when you see the GDP
4:12number growing at 6 to 7%, a really
4:15large component of that is consumer,
4:18which is growing at 12, 13%.
4:21So, the Indian Indian
4:24consumer is saving less, especially the
4:27younger generation, and they're spending
4:29more.
4:30Also, I would say beginning to borrow
4:32more to spend more.
4:35Which was not the case when you and I
4:36grew up.
4:37>> No. Not when I grew up. I can [laughter]
4:39say we grew up at the same time. We are
4:41somewhat contemporaries, but I'll let
4:43you I'll let you run away with the
4:45younger parts.
4:45>> Probably in the same area as well. Yeah.
4:48Yeah. Yeah.
4:48>> Like maybe like 5 minutes away from each
4:50other. If you
4:52selected the people but they all apply
4:54and you just go through and how many
4:56applications did you get?
4:57>> an AI quiz, which is about 45 minutes.
4:59>> Yeah. Uh, a few thousand people cleared
5:02it, and then we had a boot camp for the
5:06last 4 days, where we went down from 75
5:10people to 25 people, which will be the
5:12first cohort.
5:14This is so fun.
5:15>> do you then
5:17So, you say there's a
5:18there's a
5:19lady with a business plan.
5:22Do you then find a team
5:24Do they then meet potential team members
5:27in this cohort or do they Yeah. Yeah.
5:29Yeah. So, many of them team up and
5:31become co-founders.
5:33So, the ideas are already there of what
5:36could be built,
5:37and we help
5:39to a large extent in manufacturing,
5:42distribution,
5:44marketing, content, packaging, all of
5:46that.
5:47Uh, so the idea is to really expedite
5:51the time to market and do it in the 3
5:53months while they all live in one house.
5:58Sounds great. What's it called? It's
6:00called Foundry. Foundry. We'd love to
6:02have you guys. Oh, we'd love to I mean I
6:04would I would love it.
6:07If you get her involved, Nikhil, I won't
6:09be able to get her back home.
6:10>> [laughter]
6:10>> I mean, that's You've just described
6:12something that is probably her dream.
6:14It's something that I've been thinking
6:15about myself. Kiran's going to be there
6:17for a few days.
6:19Oh, so you bring in people to kind Like
6:20take classes.
6:22And And have you funded it If you don't
6:23mind me asking, you funded it yourself?
6:25>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Fully. And then you
6:28you have a Is it a standard term sheet
6:29that Yeah, it's a fairly standard term
6:32sheet.
6:33All 20 of them get about half a million
6:35dollars beginning, and then at the end
6:38of 3 months, they need more money, then
6:40we open it up for whoever wants to buy
6:41it. Yeah, at that point, yeah. And you
6:44Have you Do you you have a right, but
6:46presumably an obligation to follow on if
6:48you if you want.
6:50I think we both have so many questions
6:51cuz it's so exciting.
6:52>> That sounds great.
6:55So, presumably you're investing
6:57like angel, right?
6:59>> Yeah. And then So,
7:01the next step of funding,
7:05aside from you,
7:08in the consumer space in India, do you
7:09find there are sufficient folks who can
7:12kind of put that kind of money in? In In
7:14India, yes, because of the rate of
7:16growth in consumption,
7:18which is the opposite of the Western
7:19world.
7:20Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Like you
7:22would find it just as easy to get money
7:26for consumer as you would for tech in
7:28India. Amazing.
7:31Yeah. This sounds great.
7:32>> Yeah.
7:33Sounds really great. Yeah, it should be
7:35fun. And you can also film them like
7:38like that. Yeah, we are making it a
7:39show.
7:41Like seven episodes. What's the average
7:44age? 28.
7:46Oh, actually that's actually a bit
7:48older than I would have thought.
7:49It's funny, we realized that we have
7:52some who are really young, like 18 and
7:5419, but we ended up picking a lot of
7:58people who were in their late 30s as
7:59well. Okay. Okay. Just worked out that
8:03way. There was no plan going in.
8:04>> Yeah, no, you just saw who Yeah.
8:07And we're making a TV show because Yes,
8:09that's my thing.
8:10>> We want to make them heroes before the
8:12product hits the market, so people buy
8:14the product.
8:14>> And Nikhil, you and I know, growing up,
8:18who were the heroes of our time, right?
8:20You had incredible cricket folks. You
8:22had your Your dad and Jay Nagar.
8:24>> [laughter]
8:25>> And my dad.
8:27But But you know,
8:29literally, I think one of the reasons my
8:30dad stood out was because he was a man
8:33with an idea and a vision and a business
8:36plan, really. And so, you're saying,
8:39let's take that
8:40and make heroes out of these men and
8:42women. How cool is that? Like let's make
8:45business cool. I mean, business is cool
8:47now.
8:47>> Yeah. You know, I interviewed your dad a
8:49few years ago.
8:50>> Did you? Yeah. Oh, we did I didn't
8:51>> [laughter]
8:52>> I didn't see that.
8:53It was not on camera. IT WAS
8:57>> [laughter]
9:01>> IT WAS NOT ON CAMERA. IT WAS LIKE A
9:02CONVERSATION we were having for a
9:04Karnataka government thing.
9:06Okay. Yeah. I see your mom every time
9:09Kiran has a Correct. She's part of a
9:12good event or a bad event. She's part of
9:14the posse. Yeah.
9:15The last time I met your mom, we were in
9:18a
9:19Where were we? No, this was
9:20unfortunately when Kiran's husband had
9:23passed away. And we were at the
9:25>> [clears throat]
9:26>> We were at the crematorium.
9:28And there was a
9:29poster of a god
9:31on the ceiling.
9:33So, I was looking at it, and she came up
9:35to me, and she's like, Nikhil, do you
9:36know what that is?
9:38It was the god who is in charge of of
9:41death. Yama. Yamaraj. No, he's he's a
9:44god of crematoriums, who is in charge of
9:47Very specific. Very specific.
9:50So, she sat me down and told me the
9:52story for like 10 minutes. This is his
9:54job. You know, in Haridwar, where there
9:56are many fires at the same time? He's
9:58the guy in charge of keeping the place
10:00running and moving one soul from here to
10:03there. Very interesting story. That is
10:06classic classic your mom.
10:08>> [laughter]
10:09>> Not at the kind of macro level of gods.
10:11It's But but she she
10:14Some very
10:14>> she she
10:16is so passionate
10:19about storytelling. Yeah. And then she
10:21deploys that skill
10:24whether she's writing for kids, whether
10:27she's now you know she's a member of
10:28parliament by the Rajya Sabha, whether
10:31she I think even when she was an
10:32engineer, she she somehow was able to
10:36come
10:37put things together to to have a
10:39narrative that appeal to people. So I
10:42think really interesting. I mean you've
10:43seen that all the time.
10:44>> it's a great gift in life.
10:46I think I
10:47I look at it and I marvel. But her
10:50ability
10:51to tell a story about anything in any
10:54context
10:56is a superpower because it's by far and
10:59away the most powerful way to
11:01communicate. And she somehow has in her
11:04head just stories for everything.
11:07For every age group, every topic,
11:09there'll be something.
11:10>> And in politics I feel like you've
11:12realized
11:14how important it is.
11:15>> Yeah, I think in in but even in I think
11:17even in business in every like in
11:18everything. It's just if you can
11:20communicate through storytelling, it's
11:23it's a
11:24Did you have to learn to story tell? I
11:26yeah, I I it's something I've learned
11:28because of you and your mom. Mhm. But it
11:32it doesn't come as naturally to me.
11:35I I approach things a bit more
11:37practically, a bit more analytically.
11:40And
11:41but it which is fine, but it's not as
11:44effective
11:45for communicating certainly politically,
11:48but I think in general. But then I I'll
11:50see you are more like your mom, right?
11:52Her instinctive way to explain something
11:55is with a story. And I see how she does
11:56it with the kids. It's just how you see
11:58the world.
11:59>> But your mom isn't Yeah, but it's she
12:00>> You see the world in narratives. You you
12:02are people-centric.
12:04You you
12:06put ideas together. And naturally
12:09there's a kind of beginning, middle, and
12:10end to it.
12:12But you don't consciously think about
12:13it, obviously. I agree with her. For a
12:17guy who looks like me, brown-skinned, to
12:20become the prime minister of England,
12:25you have to be good at storytelling.
12:28Yeah, that's nice of you to say. That's
12:31nice of you to say. I
12:35At your age. At my age.
12:39Look at Look in I think
12:42obviously you have to be able to
12:43communicate reasonably well in politics.
12:47I think different times require
12:51different types of communication. Then
12:53the pandemic struck.
12:55And so that was my introduction to the
12:57country. So I was doing A I was doing
13:00something that I was very comfortable in
13:02which was economic policy. But that time
13:04I think was atypical, because
13:08and I can't I don't know what it was
13:09like here, but
13:10in in the UK and same similar in the US
13:12and other places,
13:14everybody just watched the government
13:16press conference every evening. And
13:18because people couldn't leave their
13:19homes as my everyone was at home and
13:21everyone was worried. And so people in a
13:23way that they haven't done for decades,
13:26most of the country just sat down at
13:275:00 or 6:00 or whatever time I think it
13:29was 5:00 we did these things. And and
13:32and then there would be a different
13:33minister every day on the TV talking to
13:36the country.
13:38And that was my introduction
13:40to the country and it suited me cuz it
13:42didn't you didn't need to be a brilliant
13:45storyteller for what people wanted. What
13:47they wanted was A clear communicator.
13:50Yeah, they wanted someone who could
13:51explain things clearly, provide
13:53reassurance,
13:56and then do these things that would help
13:57them and it and explain, you know, what
13:59we were doing economically, how it was
14:01going to benefit them
14:03and with a hopefully reassuring tone.
14:05And you had this
14:06you had a captive audience who were
14:08hungry for that information.
14:11And so it probably suited my style.
14:14And then actually that you know once
14:16politics gets back to normal and no one
14:19is tuning in for half an hour with a
14:21slightly more sympathetic bias as
14:23they're listening to you,
14:25that's when actually if you were able to
14:29communicate with storytelling, it would
14:31have served me better, actually. I
14:33watched a lot of your interviews. There
14:35aren't many. I think you guys have done
14:37very few interviews. You mean together
14:39or Together there are one or two I
14:41think. The Stanford one. Yes, we've done
14:43the Stanford speech.
14:44>> Yeah, one about maths. And yes. Yeah,
14:47that's a newer thing for us to do
14:48together is this charity. Yeah.
14:50>> Yeah. Yeah. Well we and so you've seen a
14:52few of them.
14:53>> But I've never seen you speak about
14:55life truly and not in a manner that you
14:58are doing today. Yeah. I hear about
15:00Akshata's parents a lot, never about
15:02yours. Mhm. They're awesome. Yeah. In
15:05fact, I went through a period where
15:07I said, "Rishi, I'm I'm not sure if I
15:09want to marry you or not, but then I
15:10don't want to lose your parents."
15:11>> [laughter]
15:12>> The best way is to is to is to uh They
15:15they and they certainly spend more time.
15:17My parents spend more time talking to
15:18you than they do to me. So but they're
15:20genuinely amazing. I'll I'll give my two
15:22cents cuz I'm
15:24I obviously didn't grow up with with
15:26them.
15:28And you were saying, you know, Rishi for
15:30someone who looks like me became PM.
15:33I would say
15:35so much of that is down to them.
15:38Because they raised all three of you, by
15:40the way,
15:42with
15:44incredible values. And you should talk
15:45about what those values are, but
15:47incredible values. And they are the
15:48living embodiment of those values.
15:51And um and so I I um
15:56I feel very lucky that my children on
15:59the one hand, of course, I'm so proud of
16:01my parents and everything that they
16:02stand for, not achieved, but what they
16:04stand for, that killed. That's really
16:06important.
16:08But they have another set of
16:09grandparents. And I got to know a lot
16:11more about your parents
16:13kind of journey when I think there was
16:15that book that came out on you by
16:17Michael Ashcroft. I can't remember the
16:19name.
16:20When you were chancellor. Um
16:23and so I was Rishi didn't have time, so
16:24I was doing some of the digging into
16:26their journeys.
16:27And it's incredible.
16:29Where are they now? What do they do?
16:31>> They they still live in Southampton
16:32where I was born. They are retired. Um
16:35they're spending time with their Well,
16:36they keep busy, but they spend time with
16:38their grandkids when they can. They just
16:39um
16:40they just
16:41our our two girls actually were in uh in
16:44Bangalore this week with Akshata's mom
16:46and dad for half term. And then they
16:48just got back.
16:50But my parents came to surprise them at
16:51the airport, so they've been having a
16:52nice time the four of them over the
16:54weekend. No, so they still live in the
16:56town where I was born and and grew up.
16:59My uh dad was a GP, family doctor. My
17:03mom was a pharmacist.
17:06And
17:08I you know, I've I've spoken about this
17:10and you know, they were very much my
17:11inspiration for wanting to go into
17:12politics. You might think that's a bit
17:14odd given that
17:15>> [laughter]
17:16>> uh they're medical. But I I worked for
17:18them.
17:19And I worked mainly for my mom in the
17:22shop in the back. And so I'd be doing
17:23making up all the medicines and
17:27Doing the accounts
17:28>> I I do all the accounts as well and the
17:30bookkeeping and that got me into
17:32business side of things. But and then I
17:35would deliver the medicines. So I'd be
17:37on my bike and then in the evenings
17:38you'd go around and then I'd drop them
17:39off for the patients that couldn't come
17:41in and pick them up.
17:43And then later I you know, I learned to
17:44drive, I did it that way. But the I was
17:46really struck because they've been doing
17:49the same thing in the same place 30
17:51years and the surgery and the pharmacy
17:52were nearby each other, so they had lots
17:54of similar patients overlapping. And I
17:58would I was struck because you'd go to
18:00the door and you'd hand the thing and
18:01they'd say, "Oh, are you Mrs. Sunak's
18:04son? Or you Dr. Sunak's son?" I'd say,
18:06"Yes." And then they would proceed to
18:08tell me some lovely story about my mom
18:10and dad. They'd say, "Oh,
18:12and it would invariably be something
18:13that either or both of them had done to
18:16them or their parents or their
18:17grandparents or their kids. And I you
18:20just got this repeatedly
18:22and the same
18:24the same thing would happen if we were
18:25out of the weekend or shopping. And uh
18:28and and I and and I came to realize that
18:31it was possible for just one person or
18:33two people as individuals to have this
18:36quite strong impact in their community.
18:39In a way that you could touch so many
18:40people's lives and make a difference to
18:42them. And I thought that was inspiring.
18:45And so that was my motivation for
18:46becoming a politician because in the UK
18:49our districts, our constituencies are
18:51small. And it's it's very retail. Right?
18:55So you are nice you know, even when
18:56you're prime minister, you're still
18:58doing that. You're you're conducting
19:00They're still called They're called
19:01surgeries. You know, you have a surgery
19:03as an MP, people come and see you with
19:04their problems, you help them. And and
19:07you're out in you embedded in your local
19:09community. And I get a lot of
19:10fulfillment from that. And actually one
19:12of the things having left Downing Street
19:14that I get to do more of is that aspect
19:16of the job having stayed as an MP.
19:18>> That's in North Yorkshire. That's where
19:19our home is in. So I Googled it. It
19:21looks really pretty.
19:22>> It's very pretty.
19:23>> It's very green. It's very green.
19:24[laughter] You you'd like it. Yeah, it's
19:26And Kieran also sadly John passed away,
19:29but that was on their list cuz it's
19:31depending on which train you take, it's
19:33on the way up to Scotland.
19:34Yeah. It's um yeah, it's a fiercely
19:36independent people in Yorkshire. And
19:38it's uh but it's stunning rural England.
19:41Um I represent more sheep than people.
19:43Um so I've become very familiar with all
19:45things farming related. And there's two
19:47national parks and and it's beautiful.
19:49Um but yeah, so that's that's the thing
19:50I got from them was you know just
19:53through working with them and on seeing
19:55how
19:56they made a difference. That was my
19:57inspiration cuz obviously I disappointed
20:00them by not becoming a doctor. But
20:03I think you did fine. I did it's okay.
20:04[laughter]
20:05It's okay.
20:07It worked out okay.
20:09It worked out okay.
20:10>> [laughter]
20:10>> But I would But it was it was a definite
20:12adjustment for them. Yeah. Yeah, well
20:14cuz I
20:15I was studying economics and and
20:18philosophy and they didn't
20:20And they're like they understand
20:21science. Yeah, we kind of but we
20:23understand law.
20:24They just Yeah, cuz they they thought I
20:26might become a lawyer so they understood
20:27that. You know those days they were kind
20:29of like what you would what degree what
20:31subject you're studying what degree does
20:33that mean what job does that mean,
20:34right? It was
20:36and I had to explain it's okay it's a
20:37good degree. It's good A levels. I'll be
20:39able to
20:40get a job
20:41and it would be fine. But that the other
20:44thing with them and that's actually in
20:46spite of the
20:47superficial differences between our
20:49families
20:51the thing that united them was you know
20:54for my parents it was all about
20:55education. Right. So for them you know
20:57they worked and they worked and they
20:59worked and they did extra jobs and
21:00everything else and they worked seven
21:02days a week and all of that was so that
21:05we could go to great schools.
21:07Cuz that their view was that they just
21:08threw everything into that sacrificed
21:11everything for that.
21:12>> a very Indian thing, no? It's a it's a
21:14very it's a very Indian thing.
21:16It's a very Indian thing. I mean
21:18you know my parents did exactly that,
21:20right? And and I think the Indian
21:23community
21:24as a whole we value education.
21:27>> Yeah.
21:28As the passport is a way for a better
21:30life. Right? But it was I was really
21:32lucky cuz I went to great great schools
21:34as a result of that. And we helped along
21:36the way as did my brother and sister.
21:38But it was um
21:40you know that was kind of drilled into
21:43us that
21:44this is important. Do you think it still
21:46works though?
21:47If you were to argue that the Indian
21:50education system which is very
21:53marks dependent and rank dependent
21:57is teaching us to be conformist in a
21:59world that is no longer rewarding
22:01conformity?
22:04So first of all
22:06Come on you got you got I can imagine
22:07we'll have
22:08I so I studied in India till I was 18
22:10then I and then I
22:12the truth is Nikhil at 16 you know both
22:15my parents are engineers
22:19even in '96 I knew at 16 I knew that
22:25they were they were special and amazing
22:27and and
22:29and I thought a lot of it was down to
22:30them being engineers, right?
22:33Um that's
22:33far from the point but but I knew I
22:36didn't want to be an engineer
22:37and so then well what are my options?
22:40I didn't want to be a doctor.
22:42And so I knew I wanted to read and write
22:45and storytell and I loved history but I
22:48also loved
22:49um
22:50the social sciences economics
22:53and so I ended up going to the US and I
22:55have a liberal arts degree
22:57but but
22:59I think the Indian education system from
23:01when I know it
23:03it it
23:05it
23:07it
23:08is a numbers game and it it you know
23:10because the
23:11it it puts you on a path
23:14where
23:16you you end up if you know what you're
23:18doing it's great but if you don't know
23:20what you want to do I'm not so sure that
23:22works but
23:23I think it's changing and now with
23:25things like technology I think we're
23:27able to
23:29be more open-minded about what that
23:30education system should be. But Nikhil
23:32to your point it's it's not just India
23:34because of AI every country is having to
23:37think about its education system and
23:39reimagine it for this world what what is
23:43worth studying what are the right skills
23:46to teach young people and we think about
23:48it we have two daughters who are about
23:50to grow up into this world and
23:53I think the one thing we know is it's
23:54it's actually very hard to say with
23:56certainty.
23:58And I you know I'm lucky to spend time
23:59with the people developing this
24:01technology
24:03people thinking about it. I I think
24:05there's just an incredible amount of
24:06uncertainty about exactly how this is
24:09all going to work out. Would you send
24:11your daughters to an engineering college
24:12today? I think you know would I send
24:14them to an engineer Yeah, I mean look I
24:16they're so young. If if that's what they
24:18were passionate about and look I'm not
24:20as familiar with
24:21Indian education Right. system versus UK
24:24or US And that's the point I was trying
24:26to make Nikhil like I thought if you
24:27were a fairly good student you went you
24:29have to be a
24:29a doctor or an engineer a doctor or an
24:32engineer and I didn't want to be either
24:33of those, right?
24:34But we're we're not quite at the there's
24:36they're not old enough yet where I'm
24:37sitting there going if they were
24:38engineers well should they do more
24:41electrical engineering cuz hardware is
24:43more important than
24:45you know computer science or something.
24:46I you know I'm not at that level with
24:48them and no no neither of us are. But I
24:50think what one thing some things that
24:52are starting to become clearer
24:55about this AI world is
24:58you can almost break down I think about
25:00it you can break down most jobs into a
25:02set of tasks, right? Like all of our
25:04jobs are a set of tasks and we've talked
25:06about this, right? And and there's
25:08there's bits that AI is clearly going to
25:11be very good at.
25:13And then there's bits that it probably
25:14won't be.
25:16And you just need to make sure that your
25:18education is not so narrow that it gives
25:21you the breadth these what I these
25:23horizontal skills
25:25and it's things like critical thinking.
25:28It's it's kind of knowing what question
25:30to ask the model. The model will always
25:31have more knowledge than you but you you
25:34need to know how to get the best out of
25:35it and that comes from critical thinking
25:38reasoning judgment being able to
25:40evaluate the answer that comes back and
25:42then go back. I that is a set of skill I
25:45mean liberal arts education in in the US
25:47is one that focuses on that type of
25:49horizontal thinking. So I would that to
25:52me I think is
25:54is as our kids are thinking whether it's
25:55engineering or economics or whatever
25:57having some breadth
25:58>> that allows you to do that cuz just
26:00developing not deep knowledge about one
26:03thing which you do need in life. You
26:04need to I'm a big believer you need to
26:06become a subject expert and go deep. But
26:09from a skills capability you just need
26:11to have that breadth and I think the
26:13other thing is and actually we this is
26:16when we were at Stanford together we had
26:18this remember I I I I I probably made
26:22the mis in in what in hindsight made a
26:24mistake, right? And you told me this at
26:26the time. Yeah. About you know when we
26:28were doing all the class selection.
26:29>> Yes. Right? And I and I at that age
26:32you're in your 20s
26:34I was drawn more to the harder
26:37things that I I enjoyed and I was going
26:39investing extra finance that type of
26:42thing, right? And I liked those classes
26:44and I thought they were going to be very
26:45relevant to me.
26:47And you were right, right? And you were
26:49pushing me and you did more of Well I'm
26:52all of the things are interpersonal
26:53dynamics organizational behavior
26:55understanding humans and and behavior
26:59and understanding people.
27:01>> skills and people centric
27:05focus essentially. So so I think
27:07Stanford's great because they don't
27:08allow you to major as such like you
27:10don't do a finance MBA or a marketing.
27:13Um and so you invariably have to take a
27:15broad mix but I think we came because of
27:18our relationship we were able to
27:22get each other to try the other thing,
27:24right? Um And if I look back
27:27I mean you you were right on that and
27:29the thing is you at that age I think you
27:31probably undervalue how important those
27:33things are and then the thing is in if
27:36you want to end up in life in a
27:37leadership position then those things
27:39are more valuable, right? Like actually
27:41you will always be able to learn how to
27:42do the finance and the accounting and
27:44it's way to do it
27:45and actually the AI will be able to do
27:46it for you. But
27:48you know figuring you know what why
27:49something didn't work is is because of
27:52the is it the people aspect of it is how
27:54you set up your the team. Why is that
27:56person not motivated, right?
27:59>> approach to risk? It won't be because of
28:01like someone didn't get the DCF right,
28:03right? Like or whatever it is. And and
28:05so the same Yeah, and that's why with
28:06our kid as again when they're thinking
28:08about all those things it's
28:10it's where do you whether it's at
28:12undergrad grad or in the in life where
28:14do you pick up that set of skills? And
28:16actually education institutions are the
28:18right place to do it. And I remember you
28:20made this point to me because I you know
28:22I wasn't I was British and reserved and
28:25and you were more comfortable being Or
28:27more mistaken. Yeah, but you were more
28:28comfortable being emotionally vulnerable
28:30with other people and and that is the
28:32place to do it. Cuz if you're trying to
28:34understand well how do you give feedback
28:35which is a critical if you're trying to
28:37build a team run a team in any context
28:40like
28:41being able to give feedback and manage
28:43people is so critical. And and actually
28:47trying to figure that out in a low risk
28:50environment trusted environment at say
28:51business school is is much better than
28:54trying to figure it out on the job you
28:56know when you're 40 and running a
28:58company. Well that's what you're doing
28:59in a way, right? You're saying guys and
29:01gals come together
29:03and build something you're passionate
29:05about
29:06but do that
29:08in this intense way and frankly it is
29:11more low risk than if they had to go out
29:13in the real world and do it themselves.
29:16Um
29:17because I think
29:18everything comes down to people in the
29:20end, right? Um so
29:24Yeah, so understanding people at a
29:26at a in a better way which
29:28which again is so those are the I think
29:29what I'd say to you know kids is the
29:31engineer this but it's these other
29:32things I'd want to make sure one way or
29:34another from school from college from
29:36whatever else they're building those
29:39skill sets
29:40because I think those whatever happens
29:42with AI those will be more and more
29:44valuable over time. to um Rishi
29:49I'm so intrigued and and frankly more
29:53convinced uh than ever that in the world
29:55of AI, let's figure out let's lean into
29:58being more human. And what does it mean
30:00to be more human? We can have a
30:01conversation around that. Um
30:05But but
30:06I think to me those are qualities are
30:08compassion.
30:10>> not less important. compassion and
30:12intuition and things like that. Now
30:15you can tell me whether AI can learn all
30:17of that. Maybe in time AGI etc. But
30:21let's lean into those human skills. Um
30:25and those
30:27are not
30:29And I think schools are changing schools
30:30because I now have been uh
30:33in one shape or form I I have been a
30:35part of the Indian education system, the
30:37US education system and the British
30:39education system. Through the kids,
30:41yeah. Through the kids. And um
30:45in all of these places I see it is
30:46changing. Like it was not it's not like
30:49when I was growing up, right? Um But I
30:51mean it's
30:52>> But is it changing fast enough? That's
30:53the question.
30:54>> that is the key, right? And it's
30:57And I think because probably cuz you
30:58same with you like we're closer to the
31:01technology development. Like so we see
31:03what's happening there.
31:05And the government always moves slower
31:07than that even at the best of times. And
31:10changing whole systems like an education
31:12system takes time. But it might my
31:14general
31:15And I was saying this uh
31:17you know last week at the AI summit,
31:19right? Like you what
31:21political leaders can't afford to do is
31:23treat AI like tomorrow's problem.
31:26It is an action this day issue. And and
31:29and there probably is not much I mean
31:31you don't I don't think you see a huge
31:33amount of debate and discussion about
31:36changing the education system. Um So
31:38then the way you're saying being a
31:40generalist is better than being an
31:41expert?
31:43Yeah, I mean [laughter]
31:45So interesting cuz I would think that
31:47you would say no you you need to build
31:49deep skills in a couple of things.
31:51>> say I I think this is yeah.
31:53>> [laughter]
31:55>> Well, we might not say the same thing. I
31:56don't know. I think
31:56>> And I would use a different word for
31:57generalist. I would say breadth.
31:59I think that I think the set of what
32:02they're horizontal skills.
32:04You need those which are not
32:06domain-specific,
32:08right? The critical reasoning, thinking,
32:10judgment, all those human-centric skills
32:12that we just talked about. Empathy,
32:14feedback, dispute regulate. Um
32:17regulation, yeah, exactly. Dispute
32:18negotiation. All those human-centric
32:20skills.
32:22And a set of
32:24cognitive but horizontal cognitive
32:26skills like critical reasoning. I I said
32:27that's where you need what I call
32:29horizontal skills which aren't
32:30domain-specific.
32:31But I am I don't think it's
32:33old-fashioned, but I still think
32:38you if you want to
32:40do something well, you have to
32:42have deep knowledge
32:43>> master it.
32:45And and and you know you you you you
32:46want to do something well. You stand up
32:48you need to commit time and effort to
32:50to being someone who who
32:53is stands out on it. Now look that is
32:56easier now. Well, sorry. The
32:59What's easier now is for many more
33:00people to reach a high knowledge level
33:02because of AI, right? So it's harder to
33:04stand out for that. But you can't not
33:07have that. That's my view. Now that
33:09might be a bit of an old-fashioned view,
33:10but I tend to think
33:13if you're talking to someone who's
33:16pitching you for one of your companies,
33:19right? And then there's
33:20foundry and they'd say okay they've got
33:22an idea for a confectionery business.
33:25If
33:26if they don't know the confectionery
33:27market in India inside out
33:30I think it would be I mean I don't know.
33:32I mean I would find that odd. But I
33:34would expect them to know more about the
33:36confectionery market than anyone else
33:38that I speak to. My thing is you only
33:41build deep knowledge in something I
33:43think if you're passionate about it.
33:46And so when I think of that in the
33:47context of entrepreneurship, take the
33:49confectionery business. This person
33:52probably for a number of reasons
33:55deeply cares about that space. And
33:58that's when innovation happens I think,
34:00right? So deep knowledge combined with
34:02passion
34:05combined with this breadth of skills
34:07that we've talked about
34:10is is is I think
34:12an incredibly interesting Like but to
34:14your point and I this is on college.
34:16Right? So
34:18if you if if one of our kids was doing a
34:20degree or they're choosing a degree and
34:22whatever it is engineering, English,
34:24economics. If all they did for the three
34:27four years
34:29was just study
34:31that subject without building those
34:35broad capabilities
34:37then that would be I think a problem,
34:40right? They would not be set up to
34:41succeed in in this world. Now you can
34:44build those capabilities
34:46through the subject. You can do it as a
34:48standalone class. But if if all you did
34:51is just study the pure subject and
34:53you're the expert on this industrial
34:55economics over here and that
34:56macroeconomics over there and you know
34:58Dario talking about Cournot equilibrium
35:00took me back to my industrial economics
35:02classes.
35:03Um but it's like that that is not
35:05sufficient. Like that is absolutely not
35:08sufficient. If you haven't left at the
35:09same time with that I think that comes
35:11back to what makes you
35:12us more human.
35:14I mean you guys like this at home?
35:16Are we
35:17>> We
35:18We What what is like this mean?
35:19[laughter]
35:21I don't know. What is the this? Again
35:24again because we're on camera.
35:26What's the this?
35:28>> [laughter]
35:29>> Having interesting conversations? Having
35:31interesting conversations you mean? You
35:32finish each other's lines off. Oh.
35:35I think we are. I really do.
35:38>> But underneath you don't agree. Not
35:40always.
35:40>> we we've Not always. Oh, yeah.
35:44Good good good way to put it. So I think
35:47and our destination is always the same.
35:50Which is?
35:52Well, so so
35:54Depends on the situation.
35:55>> we end up coming arriving at the same
35:57decision say. For the most part.
35:59>> most part for the most part. Or at least
36:00in all the big stuff, no? Yeah. Yeah.
36:03But
36:04I think our journeys
36:06We don't start Yeah, and we don't start
36:08from we don't often start I think we we
36:10probably rarely start from the same
36:12place.
36:13Oh, I was just going to say our
36:14approaches are quite different. Yeah.
36:17Exactly.
36:17>> Right? So for example if there's
36:20something to do with with our children,
36:23we'll kind of know what how we we know
36:25in fact what the answer is.
36:27We know what we're solving for.
36:28>> What we're solving for. That's right.
36:30But then I will do it
36:32the way you will come at it and the way
36:34I will come at it. Yeah, exactly.
36:35Approach. Will be yeah, approach our
36:36starting point will be different. How is
36:38it different?
36:40You go and then I'll go. Uh well I I
36:42will probably come at it from a more
36:44analytical, more practical
36:47process-oriented, structured way.
36:50>> Even in this interview, he's giving me
36:52the evil eye when I'm like [laughter] a
36:54bit all over the place and he's like no
36:56that wasn't the question.
36:57I didn't catch it.
36:59I [laughter] know the evil eye.
37:02CAN YOU SHOW US?
37:05THE SUBTLE EVIL EYE.
37:08>> [laughter]
37:08>> I DIDN'T THINK I was doing that.
37:10Only my And then you you will come with
37:12it
37:12>> come at it
37:13with heart Mhm. with passion
37:18like quite risk-taking. And more
37:21intuitive. And more
37:23yeah, heart intuitive. Yeah. And less
37:25structured. And much less structured.
37:26And less practical. Yeah, and I will be
37:28so
37:29although we're solving for the same
37:31thing, you know, what's the best for our
37:32kid or what should we do in X or
37:34whatever it is. I mean let's talk about
37:35something, right? Like going into
37:37politics. Rishi
37:39you didn't grow up thinking you would
37:41want to go into politics. But
37:43when he first
37:45talked to me about it, I'm like great we
37:47you know you can make a real impact and
37:49solve all these challenges and Rishi
37:51just has a more structured approach to
37:52that.
37:53Um
37:54and I thought that was really
37:56But we on all those things so we'll
38:00say anyway we talk about. So we talk
38:02what your point is. So we talk a lot.
38:05And then the you know then it will
38:07probably at some point
38:10you know, we're better at
38:12now. What are you saying interrupt?
38:13[laughter]
38:14THE HAND GESTURES.
38:17NO, IT MIGHT it might do a bit of that,
38:18right? If it's particularly
38:20big thing and we've come at it
38:22differently, then there'll be a bit of
38:23that go away. Then we'll come back at it
38:26and
38:28and and and on as you say on all on all
38:31the big things we
38:32>> the same And we end up being very happy
38:34I think having been through the process.
38:36And we have enough trust now I mean you
38:38know how long we've been married like 15
38:4116 whatever years. Um
38:44We have enough trust that
38:46the process is even if it's a bit
38:48fraught during,
38:49we trust the process. We trust the
38:51process and we trust each other.
38:52>> Yeah. No, no. There's that. So I think
38:54it's
38:55We know that the other person genuinely
38:59believes
39:01in the same things.
39:03Which are? So so to me I when I say that
39:06I think values, right? And I think those
39:08values we share
39:10so many which are around integ- having
39:15great deal of integrity
39:17working hard, being curious about the
39:20world around you
39:22um and having compassion I think. And
39:24respecting everybody. great respect and
39:27and compassion, yeah. Where did the
39:29values come from? I think from our
39:31parents.
39:33>> And that and that was the bit that were
39:35as a superficial differences. But I
39:37remember remember the when they met that
39:41uh
39:41Were at your parents' home or you think
39:43that yeah yeah that
39:44they where you so our parents first met
39:47which I was I was dressed about because
39:49I was nervous but it was fine she left
39:51me to deal with it [laughter]
39:52and it was and it was a stressful
39:54because they were very I mean
39:56she knew both dads I knew both dads but
39:58they when they met and they came her
40:00parents came with her uncle to my
40:03to my parents house in Southampton and
40:05and I was there my brother was there
40:08And it it
40:09I mean it was genuinely stressful
40:11because they they were so
40:12different on the
40:14on the surface
40:16but it ended up being um
40:18it ended up being really positive
40:21because and that was the thing that your
40:23parents had had said to me they said we
40:26were we were apprehensive cuz we just
40:28didn't know whether they would have the
40:30same values to us cuz obviously that
40:32They're different different but actually
40:35how
40:37what the things that life the things
40:39that they value the things that are
40:40important to them how they've raised you
40:42being in your house
40:44Are values more nurture than nature?
40:47You were not born with them?
40:50Are values more nurture than nature?
40:53Yeah. I mean yeah
40:55I think they are I mean I say that um
40:59I think they are
41:01um
41:04Yeah I think so I was talking to my
41:06therapist I was speaking with my
41:08therapist recently
41:10I'm I'm going to
41:11is that okay I assuming this is display
41:14so
41:15good [laughter] cuz I'm
41:16going to stick in right
41:17This is so ridiculous
41:20sitting there and I didn't want to
41:21polite and [laughter] whatnot so He does
41:23this in every anytime there is
41:26anything
41:28anything we've done together oh that's
41:29it we had this
41:31we
41:33had a great meeting with with another
41:36international leader and his spouse
41:39and they had catered afternoon tea which
41:41was very nice
41:43and you know we were all rightly you
41:45know you meet them for the first time
41:47you're trying to make sense of each
41:48other
41:49making sure that they're comfortable but
41:53there are all these cakes and then
41:54halfway through it Rishi is like well
41:55I'm going to start on the cakes and it
41:57actually was great because no one else
41:59was touching any of the food
42:01it was a genuine kind of we're looking
42:03for an icebreaker and Rishi just went
42:05straight in for the food so um
42:08How was the journey Rishi from
42:12going from being a
42:14person who is at Goldman Sachs to
42:16becoming the prime minister of UK?
42:20I know it's a big question
42:21>> It's a big question yeah
42:23um
42:26Well I think the the first thing to say
42:28it was the
42:30journey that I had imagined
42:34even if it happened far faster than I
42:35would have imagined
42:37because I
42:39I'm one of these people who thinks if
42:42if you want to go into politics you are
42:44far better off having done something
42:47first
42:48that's my view
42:50and I think that because a a you bring a
42:55set of skills and experience about
42:57something else into the political arena
42:59which is just a good thing
43:01>> [snorts]
43:01>> and you have that knowledge which you
43:03can contribute
43:05but also from a understanding of the
43:07real world yeah yeah with this
43:10I think what actually you're saying what
43:12I think I'm about to say which is no no
43:14no I think it's
43:15the same thing
43:17No which is it's a slightly different
43:19mindset to how you approach things cuz
43:21if you spent your entire life
43:23in politics you tend to see everything
43:25with a political lens you you see the
43:27politics in every situation or every
43:29problem
43:31whereas if you
43:32done something else first and you've
43:33just had a normal experience in doing
43:35business teaching medicine whatever it
43:38is armed forces
43:40and you come into politics you don't see
43:42the life through a political prism and I
43:44think that is better so for those
43:46reasons I think
43:48doing something else first is is the
43:49right way to do it certainly that's what
43:51I wanted to do so in that sense the the
43:53career path was one that I had broadly
43:56thought about um obviously it happened
43:58happened a lot a lot quicker and I think
44:00the other thing which was important to
44:02me which we talked about a lot at
44:04Stanford was I I
44:06financial independence and financial
44:08security was important to me as a
44:10precondition
44:12to going into politics afford that Sorry
44:14Politics gives you financial security as
44:16well right? I I do I mean
44:20why why do you say that? Aren't British
44:22politicians paid well?
44:24They are paid well by
44:27average wage standards so you know
44:30there's a body that sets politicians
44:32wages relative to a set of professional
44:35classes so in the if you look at what
44:37the average person in the UK earns
44:38politicians are are paid considerably
44:40more than more than that but for the
44:43financial security that I wanted right
44:45everyone has their own view
44:51Yeah I so from so there was a degree of
44:53financial security that I wanted which
44:55was not just to be able to live my life
44:58but to make sure my family were okay
45:00that our kids would be able to have
45:03flexibility that the person that I met
45:05would be able to have flexibility
45:07I'm actually
45:09but
45:10so I I kind of came into it wanting you
45:13know wanting to be able to give my kids
45:15my family
45:18the choice actually to to not have to
45:19maybe do what I did I mean I was lucky I
45:21liked something I was passionate about
45:23something to your point I happen to be
45:24passionate about something which is also
45:26well rewarded financially but it was
45:28very important to me to have that
45:29financial independence
45:31bringing this other set of experience
45:33and skills
45:34into politics and government was
45:35important so
45:37you know in that sense the the the
45:39journey happened
45:41yeah as I would have wanted it to
45:44I think
45:46what was different about it was the
45:49speed Right at
45:52the speed in which it happened
45:55which
45:57if I if I look back
45:59and I kind of think
46:02you know what do I think differently
46:03about the world
46:05now than I used to at the start of that
46:08journey you know I used to think
46:12I I used to think speed was
46:17Yeah
46:19you know I I used to think speed was the
46:22most important thing
46:24and I've come to appreciate
46:26that
46:27patience is
46:31almost a bigger competitive advantage I
46:34I I think when you're that age Nikhil it
46:37I'm sure I'm sure you'll
46:39resonate with that
46:41>> [laughter]
46:41>> No now I would say you're
46:44All right but I think when you're when
46:45you're in your 20s and you're I think
46:46you're you're constantly thinking about
46:49I've got to get to this point and this
46:51point the next thing and you know
46:52there's a list you know 30 under 30
46:54young rising stars 40 under 40 list and
46:58and you are focused on getting to the
46:59next thing and if I don't do this by
47:01this point then the the window is gone
47:03and I I was very much like that
47:05I was not going to be successful
47:07um
47:09and I think that given and this might be
47:11a strange thing for someone who's
47:13had my career path to say right you end
47:15up being prime youngest prime minister
47:16in 200 years and in one sense that's
47:19incredible
47:21but in another sense as I say
47:23patience is its own competitive
47:24advantage because
47:27you know there is sometimes when
47:29actually it's it's worse to arrive too
47:32early than it is to arrive too late to
47:34something
47:36and it's very much not the view of kind
47:38of people on entrepreneurs building
47:40companies but certainly from my
47:41experience
47:43there's some things that you you you
47:44reach the position
47:46but you then want to be able to be at
47:48your best when you have that position or
47:50that role whatever it might be and
47:52sometimes that comes with experience and
47:54making sure that you have the experience
47:56and the judgment to make good decisions
47:57when you're in that role
47:59Is it also rate of growth that keeps you
48:01happy?
48:02For me yes
48:04So now what happens after having
48:07>> done this thing
48:09for
48:10We've had lots of incredibly
48:13interesting discussions I think probably
48:15the slightly discomforting
48:18thing for me which actually has helped
48:19me get more comfortable with
48:22is for the first time in my life
48:25I'm I I don't
48:27I don't know what the the next the next
48:30thing
48:31I'm I'm not working towards a specific
48:33specific thing Will the high ever be the
48:35same if
48:36I mean you were at the pinnacle of
48:38validation and importance in society
48:41I don't think any amount of money will
48:44get you there
48:45So what is the high that makes you feel
48:48like relatively
48:50higher than the previous high so
48:54Cool
48:55For me and I think the same for you or
48:57you're seeing that more now
49:00having this somewhat of a blank canvas
49:04is exciting
49:05because I love
49:08trying out different things I love you
49:10know we're talking earlier about risk
49:12taking etc
49:14not taking risk for the sake of a risk
49:16but
49:17having a blank canvas or some people
49:19might say starting over again right?
49:25That's quite exciting
49:26because also
49:28we have had both of us
49:32what feels like
49:33because we've been together for now 20
49:35years these incredibly
49:37meaningful
49:40um
49:42just incredible experiences. If
49:46So, we we we we have a blank canvas, but
49:48I would like to think we have wisdom
49:50with it. And we have
49:53we're lucky. We we are able to do things
49:56that interest us, that fuel our
49:58passions.
49:59Um
50:01So, I'd say that's the first thing. The
50:03I I don't know if that's a high or not,
50:04but it's exciting to have that blank
50:06canvas. And we're starting to lay color
50:09on it in our own way. Yeah. Um in ways
50:12that are deeply meaningful to us. We're
50:14not just doing it to tick a box, right?
50:17Um not doing it because we have to get
50:19to the next milestone. We don't even
50:20know what the next milestone is.
50:22Um
50:25It's liberating. Yeah, I think that's
50:27it. It is in a way liberating. So,
50:31I'm 45. Mhm. We're 45. We're 45. Um you
50:35know, God you know, God willing
50:37I've I've got more both of we've got
50:40more working years ahead of us
50:42than I've got behind us.
50:44>> Mhm. Right. And and that when you think
50:47of it like that,
50:48I I can't
50:50I can't um
50:54live day-to-day thinking that the most
50:57important thing I've done
50:58>> has already happened. already happened
50:59and and nothing else I do in life will
51:01give me the same fulfillment or purpose.
51:03Uh high is the word you used. I
51:06I I I don't believe that and that would
51:07be a hard way to to live if if if you
51:10did. And and the liberating thing is
51:12actually as I said, if you're someone
51:13who's always been on this
51:15you know, track and it's like I think
51:16okay, I need to get into this university
51:18and then that that degree and then that
51:21internship and that job and you know,
51:23that MP and all that business school and
51:25that MP and then this get into the
51:27cabinet and that job, etc. I like this
51:29is this blank canvas thing is this is
51:31entrepreneurial, right? And there's a
51:33you know that better than most, right?
51:35There's a fulfillment that comes from
51:36building something with a blank starting
51:39with a blank canvas as actually said.
51:40So, that's what we're now doing and
51:44and as you said, it's exciting because
51:47you get to start this second chapter,
51:50second half of your professional life
51:52with all these incredible experiences
51:54and skills that you've built up. Yeah.
51:56Which you didn't have on that journey.
51:57That's what I was saying before. Whereas
51:58before it's like rush rush rush rush
52:00rush. It was it felt
52:02I'm not putting words in your mouth, but
52:03it I think when you're
52:0518, 22,
52:08starting your first job, etc.
52:11I think you
52:13it can sometimes feel theoretical where
52:16you know in your head, oh, I have to do
52:18this job this degree to get this job to
52:20get to this place. Whereas now, we don't
52:24just rely on kind of established
52:26frameworks. We're able to
52:31deep dive into
52:33what I
52:34will call wisdom. Right? We're able to
52:38build on those incredible frameworks
52:42which are given to you by education,
52:45your values, your your your
52:48career um
52:50experiences, your professional
52:51experiences.
52:53But also just
52:55having had the the vast range of
52:57meaningful experiences and you're only
52:5945.
53:00>> learning and you learn from them, right?
53:01All the failures you've had, all the
53:03things that you've got wrong and
53:05reflected on and the things that you've
53:07got right and understanding what what
53:09you're good at and why you get them
53:10right. I like I
53:12I have I have to believe
53:15that roughly, you know, worked
53:1620-something years, will have
53:1920-something years left to work. I'm
53:21should be far better set up for success
53:23over this next 20 than I was over the
53:25last 20.
53:26>> But it depends on how you define
53:27success, I guess. Yes. Yeah. But if
53:30you're defining success by one
53:32particular
53:33job or position, then then maybe, but I
53:37don't think either of us think of that
53:39about success like that. So, that maybe
53:41is This is very personal to me. A lot of
53:43people like last night a bunch of kids
53:45were asking me, why don't you become a
53:46politician?
53:47>> Yeah.
53:48And I've never thought of it. I don't
53:50have any plan or any inclination
53:52whatsoever.
53:53But I really want to know, how does it
53:56feel? Like
53:59to go from
54:00working in a corporation to becoming the
54:03Prime Minister.
54:05How does the attention feel? How does
54:07the
54:09the criticism feel? How does the
54:13the
54:14responsibility feel?
54:15>> Responsibility, yeah.
54:16>> Yeah. So,
54:19you know, for someone who's entering
54:21into politics,
54:23you know, I
54:24like I get asked similar question. You
54:25know, for young people who are thinking
54:27about politics, you know, I say to them
54:28there's
54:30you
54:31you need to be resilient.
54:33You need to be patient.
54:37And
54:39you need to be motivated by public
54:41service more than ambition. At at some
54:44level.
54:45So, those are the
54:48I think the things that you you need to
54:49make sure that you have.
54:50>> What's under that though? The day you
54:52figured you're becoming Prime Minister,
54:54did you sit at home and you're like,
54:56this happened? I didn't have [laughter]
54:58time. No, Nika, I I yeah.
55:00I
55:01It has to be a big thing, right?
55:03>> Yeah, you know what? It It It for me,
55:06the circumstances in which I became
55:08Prime Minister, it was so sudden.
55:11I didn't have time to to do much of
55:14that. I We were in different places that
55:17weekend from the
55:17>> Yeah, I was in Yorkshire and you were
55:19>> in London. I was I was 1 minute I was
55:21with our two kids
55:24at TGI Fridays and bowling. I just lost
55:27a quite bruising leadership election to
55:29to Liz Truss.
55:31And I was emotionally starting to look
55:35forward to this next chapter of my life,
55:36spending time with the kids, thinking
55:37about what we were going to do next. Uh
55:40and so, I physically and emotionally
55:41[laughter]
55:42was in a completely different place. And
55:44then all of a sudden this thing happened
55:46that I was not
55:48uh
55:49prepared Thinking actively about
55:52>> uh emotionally or practically. And it
55:54happened just so quickly. And so, you
55:57didn't have time. And then I, you know,
55:58it was a battlefield promotion, right?
56:00And there was,
56:01you know, a huge number of things that I
56:03had to deal with immediately. Mhm.
56:06So, it didn't I didn't really get to
56:07have
56:09I think we had one call with your
56:11parents. Yeah. Cuz they it was So, it
56:13was Rishi's mother's 70th birthday that
56:15day. It was our youngest daughter's 10th
56:18birthday. And it was also Diwali.
56:20>> happening, yeah. Yeah. And so, we had
56:22one phone call with your parents.
56:24And that was going to be that.
56:26>> it it actually I at first
56:31the moment it kind of first properly hit
56:33me cuz the first few days there was so
56:35much to do. It was I forget whether it
56:37was 5 days, 4 days, a week later. There
56:39was a cuz I got became Prime Minister
56:41around Diwali. And so, there was a
56:43Downing Street Diwali reception
56:46a few days after I became Prime
56:47Minister. And and it was at that moment
56:50I was, you know, I was
56:52doing that. And obviously,
56:54in particular, the significance of being
56:57first British Asian, first Hindu Prime
56:59Minister of the UK, it being Diwali,
57:01everyone there
57:04was very aware of that and Well, I think
57:07>> and obviously expressing how much it
57:08meant to them. And that's the moment
57:09where it kind of did hit me for a
57:10second, that aspect of it. Um
57:13it was obviously uh it was very nice.
57:16Yeah. But to your point, it was an extra
57:18also an extra responsibility, I felt, in
57:20a in a positive way. Uh you obviously
57:22have a responsibility to do a good job
57:24in
57:25in general. But you know, I I wanted to
57:28also
57:30make sure I did an extra good job
57:32because I was the first of of and
57:35representing a lot of hopes and dreams
57:36of a community that I I wanted to make
57:38sure that I can make them proud as well.
57:41It's also crazy because
57:43the British ruled India up until 1947
57:46and
57:48you know, in a world where we still
57:50speak about things like racism,
57:54is there a line like while you speak to
57:56me? And I watched a bunch of interviews
57:58of almost everything I think you guys
57:59have done in the recent past.
58:01But
58:03you're very Indian in a way where you
58:05took oath on the Gita, you have Diwali
58:07parties, you speak about her parents a
58:09lot.
58:11Is there a line where
58:14you could become too Indian in a way
58:16that while you're actively in politics
58:18in in England, it could become a
58:20problem?
58:21It never did.
58:22>> Well, but whether it
58:25whether it was
58:26going to or not,
58:28for me,
58:30it was non-negotiable.
58:32And I wasn't going to change who I was
58:34to make that work. So, even if someone
58:37had come to me and said,
58:39you need to
58:40be a bit less Indian or, you know, not
58:42talk about this or do that, I
58:45I just wouldn't have I'm, you know, we
58:46talked about it. I made that commitment
58:48to myself. I wasn't going to change who
58:50I was for
58:53for that.
58:54>> ahead in this
58:54>> Yeah, and if it and I was comfortable
58:56with it. If it was going to be a
58:57problem, then it was so be it, right?
58:59Like I I, you know, it it just it was
59:01never
59:03That was how I was raised, right? That's
59:05who I am. I'm not I wasn't going to run
59:07away from it um just cuz I had that had
59:11that job. Um and I and I also think
59:15actually, it's uh
59:17it was a moment that was remarked on,
59:20obviously, in the UK when it happened.
59:23But not
59:24not so much so. It's not like it really
59:27dominated the conversations and that's
59:29all everyone was talking about. And
59:30people have plenty of issues with me as
59:32Prime Minister. That was not really
59:35>> the reason that, you know, if someone's
59:37going to be upset with me, it wasn't
59:38going to be
59:38>> not? Why didn't it become a bigger deal?
59:40>> Well, I think it I think it's Well,
59:41probably cuz the because of the country,
59:43right? And how it's, you know,
59:45>> Could never happen in the US, for
59:46example. But wait, they had a bad
59:47>> Every country has a different Yeah, but
59:50it was a it was a big deal when it
59:51happened.
59:52More so than it probably was with me.
59:54And I think it just All countries have
59:56their own relationship with these types
59:58of topics. And the UK is is come a long
1:00:01way. And that's why I think it's a it's
1:00:02a good thing that it wasn't a As big a
1:00:04deal. a big deal. It was a kind of, "Oh,
1:00:07okay." And then we move on. And they'll
1:00:09be upset with me about this or that. But
1:00:11they're not because, you know, "I didn't
1:00:12like what you said here or what you did
1:00:14there." But not because Not not because
1:00:16you, you know, you lit a Diwali diya
1:00:18outside the door Grant even like
1:00:19lighting the diyas outside Downing
1:00:21Street. temple last weekend or
1:00:23something, you know. I know how
1:00:25it felt so meaningful to us. It was so
1:00:27meaningful to our communities.
1:00:31But we didn't even second-guess it
1:00:32because it felt so natural.
1:00:35And no one made us feel like we should
1:00:37second-guess it, if that makes sense,
1:00:39right? Like we didn't feel uncomfortable
1:00:40at all.
1:00:41And I think that's the beauty of the UK
1:00:43is is
1:00:45the your ability to
1:00:47genuinely believe in what you do.
1:00:48>> It was a
1:00:50It was a very nice moment.
1:00:53Cuz I when you become Prime Minister,
1:00:54you
1:00:55you have
1:00:57you have to go see the
1:00:58the monarch. And he was the king who who
1:01:01recently become king.
1:01:03And um
1:01:04he informally invites you to form a a
1:01:07government. And that's that's how the
1:01:08process works.
1:01:10And so I go along to see him before I go
1:01:12to Downing Street. And um
1:01:15And it was a And that was a special
1:01:16moment. Yeah, he's
1:01:18the head of the Church of England as as
1:01:20well as uh
1:01:22being the king and the monarch and head
1:01:23of state, but has always been someone
1:01:25who's talked about being a defender of
1:01:27faith, not just the faith in general.
1:01:30But the And here I was, first British
1:01:32Asian, you know, Hindu Prime Minister of
1:01:34the UK.
1:01:36But the nice thing was, you know, we had
1:01:38tea in the after, you know, tea in the
1:01:39afternoon. But because it
1:01:41it was Diwali, and he's someone who's
1:01:43always been very engaged and supportive
1:01:47of the British Asian community in the
1:01:48UK. And it
1:01:51He There were Diwali mithai. So it was
1:01:53not like kind of tea and scones. You
1:01:56know, tea and um
1:01:57and and mithai that he'd organized. Um
1:02:00which was a really lovely Mhm. you know,
1:02:02kind of relatively unremarked moment. Uh
1:02:04and it I just To me, I thought that was
1:02:06a How are they?
1:02:09How are the monarchy? Uh well, you know,
1:02:12we have this um I've I've met them a few
1:02:14times. I'm in that British Asian Trust.
1:02:16And
1:02:16>> Yes. Yes. I also have
1:02:19a colleague of mine who used to be the
1:02:21ex-chief of staff for uh Prince Charles.
1:02:23King Charles. King Charles. Yeah. So met
1:02:26him a few times, but
1:02:28in the very
1:02:29shake hand, "Hi, how are you?" that kind
1:02:32of way. But how are they? I They're
1:02:35wonderfully warm people.
1:02:36>> Yes. I mean, look, we you know, as Prime
1:02:38Minister, you see the
1:02:40king or previously queen every week for
1:02:42what's called an audience. I watched
1:02:44this in the Winston Churchill
1:02:45documentary, I think. Uh okay. Yeah.
1:02:47>> The meetings, yeah. Yeah. So you have
1:02:49these these meetings weekly, which um
1:02:52And the And then the other thing that is
1:02:54a cast-iron rule of
1:02:56you know, UK government and politicians
1:02:58is that you don't ever talk about
1:03:00>> [laughter]
1:03:01>> the royal family or your dialogue with
1:03:02them. But other than to say, as actually
1:03:04they said, is as you can see, very very
1:03:06warm and um very welcoming people who
1:03:09are
1:03:09committed to service.
1:03:11>> Service. Yeah. Uh and but particularly
1:03:13as I said with King Charles, as you saw
1:03:15at the British British Asian Trust, it's
1:03:16something that he's supported for For a
1:03:18long time. years and years. I'm not
1:03:20going to ask you anything controversial,
1:03:21but the thing that did impress me about
1:03:24Prince Charles is King Charles. King
1:03:27Charles is
1:03:28he was into the climate thing way 20, 30
1:03:32years before other people were into it.
1:03:33Yeah. Which I thought was
1:03:36very forward-looking. Yeah.
1:03:39Yeah. Yeah. He's a huge I I think like
1:03:42he really is a naturalist in so many
1:03:44ways, I think.
1:03:45Yeah. No, he's very he's very passionate
1:03:47about about that. He's very passionate
1:03:48about the natural environment. And
1:03:51he's very knowledgeable about it as
1:03:52well.
1:03:54Okay, tell me more about how it felt.
1:03:56After Okay, the first day, you felt like
1:03:58you didn't have time to react
1:03:59>> Yeah. because you were in whatever
1:04:02tumultuous, busy, busy, crazy, madness,
1:04:05warrior zone.
1:04:06But what happens 3 months later, 6
1:04:09months later? At some point you take
1:04:10cognizance of it, right?
1:04:13Like you wake up every day and suddenly
1:04:15you have like all the security and this
1:04:17and that. I've been to 10 Downing
1:04:19Street. Your house changes significantly
1:04:21overnight. So Who did you visit? Meaning
1:04:24which Prime Minister?
1:04:25>> it was Boris. It was Boris at the time.
1:04:27But it has beautiful art in that. Yeah,
1:04:29I was so impressed. Someone took me for
1:04:30a tour. Yeah, no, it's So we were
1:04:33fortunate in one sense cuz we'd already
1:04:35been living in Downing Street. Um
1:04:37Not everyone knows, but there are two
1:04:40apartments flats in Downing Street.
1:04:43One for the Prime Minister and one for
1:04:44the Chancellor.
1:04:46So, you know, for us and for our kids,
1:04:49we were used to that.
1:04:51>> space.
1:04:52>> that the the very physical and practical
1:04:55aspect of having security or living in
1:04:58this building with everything that came
1:04:59along with that was something that we
1:05:01were we were used to and our kids were
1:05:03used to. And we made the decision not to
1:05:06change
1:05:07uh flats Mhm. when I went from becoming
1:05:10Chancellor to becoming Prime Minister.
1:05:11Historically, you would move um
1:05:14And uh we made a decision not to do
1:05:16that. We stayed in the smaller
1:05:18>> in the same So we stayed in the same
1:05:20place
1:05:21precisely for our kids so they had that.
1:05:22And for us, we had the familiarity uh
1:05:24with it. Um
1:05:26And And actually it's it's a
1:05:28it's a funny but lovely environment for
1:05:31the kids. Our younger daughter loves
1:05:33history. Mhm. So she would love being in
1:05:36this uh building with all To your point,
1:05:38all the history and the art. And she
1:05:40gave the best tour of By the time we
1:05:41left, gave the best tour of Downing
1:05:43Street. Uh and then there are all the
1:05:45incredible staff that live and work
1:05:47there or work there. For decades even, a
1:05:49lot of them. Yeah. And And they spoil
1:05:51the kids, right? And the kids would go
1:05:53to their security room and get sweets
1:05:55and have fun looking at all the security
1:05:57cameras and kind of spotting what was
1:05:59going on. So it was like home away from
1:06:01home.
1:06:01>> It's You know, they So they you know,
1:06:03they they felt very welcome. Obviously,
1:06:04it's a bit it's a bit odd.
1:06:07Uh but
1:06:08you know, you
1:06:09It's a bit strange when, you know, the
1:06:11Deliveroo or you know, Uber Eats person
1:06:14shows up at the back Back Back Yeah,
1:06:16exactly. [laughter] It's right It shows
1:06:17up at the back gate.
1:06:18>> Is the mailroom London? Uh I don't think
1:06:20so.
1:06:21>> Don't think so. No.
1:06:22Um
1:06:23But So there's a You know, the kids love
1:06:25it. And there actually the lovely lady
1:06:26who ran the cafeteria in Downing Street
1:06:28would always spoil our kids with
1:06:31with kind of bacon sandwiches in the
1:06:32mornings on their way to school and
1:06:34things like that. So there are these all
1:06:36And we got a we got our dog Nova while
1:06:38we were in Downing Street. And so she
1:06:39came there as a puppy. So she also got
1:06:41spoiled by hundreds of people. Um So,
1:06:45you know, that that that very kind of
1:06:46nice aspect. You kind of a growing up in
1:06:49this community. And living in. Living
1:06:51in. Now, there has its downsides,
1:06:53obviously. You My our flat door, you
1:06:57know, Downing Street is very much
1:06:58smaller than people realize. It's very
1:07:00kind of higgledy-piggledy. Like offices
1:07:01and flats. So you'd open our front door
1:07:03to our flat. Yeah. And the Downing
1:07:05Street Policy Unit breakout area is
1:07:08literally Open the door and there's
1:07:09people sitting there having a meeting.
1:07:11Quite a few tantrums. Yeah. So like, you
1:07:13know, like the kids are screaming on
1:07:14your way. Like, "Good morning." And you
1:07:16>> [laughter]
1:07:16>> while they're trying to figure something
1:07:17out. So, you know, those are some kind
1:07:20of day-to-day aspects of it
1:07:23that you you know, you get that you get
1:07:25used to. But for us, as I said, the
1:07:27transition was we had got used to a lot
1:07:29of that uh in any case. Who was the
1:07:32smartest person you think you met
1:07:35while you were in
1:07:36office?
1:07:38>> Both of you.
1:07:40And what did you take away? I find this
1:07:42very, very attractive that you get to
1:07:45meet
1:07:46so many interesting, different types of
1:07:47people.
1:07:48>> Yeah, I would just say like really,
1:07:49really smart people. Or really, really
1:07:51accomplished people, which is not
1:07:52necessarily the same as being smart, but
1:07:55really successful people.
1:07:58Well, we have to think about that, but
1:07:59I'll I'll just talk about the smart You
1:08:01say smart, but I'll give you probably an
1:08:03unorthodox answer, Nikhil. Um
1:08:07So I, you know, we've talked a lot about
1:08:10the power of education to transform
1:08:12people's lives.
1:08:13And so when um Rishi became PM,
1:08:18I I thought about what can I do in my
1:08:20own small way to add some value because
1:08:22unlike the US, um the UK doesn't have a
1:08:24formal role for the spouse, right?
1:08:27Um and so
1:08:30but I also knew that um
1:08:34I I would
1:08:36or I wanted to in some small way have
1:08:39some impact in my own way. And so I
1:08:41started this program called Lessons at
1:08:4310. So every Friday we got kids in from
1:08:45across the country
1:08:47to come in and be inspired. I mean, the
1:08:49theme was be inspired. Be inspired by
1:08:52the building. Be inspired by
1:08:55leadership. Be inspired to dream.
1:09:00And then every week we had a different
1:09:02theme. So you might love history. I
1:09:03might love rugby. Rishi might love
1:09:05finance. Whatever.
1:09:07Cooking. I mean, across the range. So
1:09:09don't feel like there's only one thing
1:09:11for you. There's
1:09:13Just go out and explore and you might
1:09:14just find that thing that gets you out
1:09:15of bed. And I Every week, Nikhil,
1:09:20I met young people
1:09:22who didn't always In fact, a lot of the
1:09:24time didn't come with huge kind of
1:09:27advantages in life, but they were
1:09:31so
1:09:32inspiring to me. And I think
1:09:35thank you.
1:09:37I think that
1:09:38is a memory that will stay with me
1:09:39forever. So, it wasn't just one famous
1:09:41person, right? It wasn't one
1:09:44famous name, but it was young people,
1:09:48you know, they
1:09:49with their idealism. I think that was
1:09:51really quite quite interesting and
1:09:52exciting.
1:09:54I don't know what you think.
1:09:58Thank you.
1:10:01I think there's not one
1:10:04Oh, yes. I will help myself. Please.
1:10:05>> Yeah, I don't want to you having Yeah,
1:10:07I'll help myself. [clears throat]
1:10:09There you go. There you go. I'll let
1:10:10you.
1:10:13Yeah, I don't think there's
1:10:14I think there's some special moments. I
1:10:16mean, there were lots of special
1:10:17moments.
1:10:19Thinking like the coronation was really
1:10:21special.
1:10:23In terms of individuals
1:10:25Nicholas was talking about was smart. I
1:10:26mean, you know, there's some people are
1:10:27smart in so many different ways. There's
1:10:28not one person that's all
1:10:32or all dominant knowledge, but I mean,
1:10:34look, we're living in this
1:10:35era of
1:10:36AI.
1:10:39And
1:10:40you know, I was I was struck Mhm.
1:10:43spending time with the people developing
1:10:45that technology. Mhm. Right? And you you
1:10:47know them, you've interviewed them,
1:10:49you've met them, but Mhm. I you know,
1:10:51Sam, Dario, and Demis is obviously a
1:10:55Brit.
1:10:56Uh
1:10:57came to talk to me about this very early
1:10:59on in my premiership.
1:11:01And
1:11:02>> You interviewed Elon. I I interviewed
1:11:04Elon as well around that same
1:11:06AI summit.
1:11:07>> like you were really having fun.
1:11:09Yeah, I was um
1:11:11Yeah, I I mean, I was Yes, I was. Yeah.
1:11:14>> [laughter]
1:11:15>> Thank you.
1:11:16Um That was the first AI safety summit.
1:11:18>> Yeah, that was on the AI
1:11:20the evening of the AI summit. Mhm. Um
1:11:23you know, so we had you know, we had It
1:11:24was a Yeah, it was nice obviously being
1:11:26in India this
1:11:28recently for this AI summit here is when
1:11:30we started that summit in Bletchley
1:11:31Park. I didn't imagine that it
1:11:33>> [clears throat]
1:11:33>> it would end up not end up, but it
1:11:35progressed to have this incredible event
1:11:37here in India.
1:11:38Um
1:11:39I I it's nice to have created this this
1:11:42series and it's been to South Korea,
1:11:43it's been to Paris, India, and it will
1:11:45it will keep going. How was it this
1:11:47year, the summit? It was great. I
1:11:50It was
1:11:52I think it it kind of testament to the
1:11:54Prime Minister's
1:11:56leadership that he brought so many of
1:11:59the leading businesses and Thank you,
1:12:02Nicholas. Mhm.
1:12:03uh policy makers together. Mhm. But I
1:12:07think it was
1:12:08for me, what stood out was just the
1:12:11energy and optimism of all
1:12:15the Indian entrepreneurs and people
1:12:17involved in this. It's a It was
1:12:20you know, really striking. Just being in
1:12:22the hall, talking to people, such
1:12:24optimism about this, which is not what
1:12:27you find everywhere, and particularly in
1:12:28the West where there is more anxiety
1:12:30about AI. In India, there's
1:12:33optimism and
1:12:34and excitement and trust, and that is a
1:12:37an advantage. Then you also saw the
1:12:40He's incredibly impressive, isn't he,
1:12:42the Prime Minister? Yes. Yeah, he's very
1:12:44impressive. I mean, look, I I used to
1:12:46you know, talk to him about this when we
1:12:48were when I was in office, and you know,
1:12:50he's been talking about the India stack
1:12:52for a long time.
1:12:52>> in Hindi or English?
1:12:53>> English. Cuz my Hindi is not good enough
1:12:56to do work.
1:12:58>> [laughter]
1:12:58>> I would not trust it to do any serious
1:13:01work any serious work with. Um
1:13:05sadly. Uh but no, he's someone who's
1:13:07understood the importance of technology,
1:13:09the importance of the
1:13:10tech stack. And as you see the
1:13:12announcement from Sarvam, which is
1:13:15superb. I mean, DPI, you know, the
1:13:17Aadhaar and UPI, and now these uh
1:13:20the Ayushman Bharat health accounts. You
1:13:22put all that together, the ability to
1:13:24deploy AI applications to over a billion
1:13:26people Mhm. is uh is is again
1:13:29distinctive advantage for India. So, you
1:13:31know, I all the ingredients are there.
1:13:33Do you believe sovereign AI has a use
1:13:34case?
1:13:35Sovereign AI?
1:13:36>> Mhm.
1:13:37Like what Sarvam was trying to build?
1:13:39Yeah, I So, my approach to sovereignty
1:13:41in AI is
1:13:43and I've been thinking about this a lot.
1:13:44>> Mhm.
1:13:46I think
1:13:48in sovereignty and technology in general
1:13:50is
1:13:51you know, my advice to political leaders
1:13:52or what I would do if I was in office is
1:13:54that you need to do three things. I The
1:13:57The first is you need as a country to
1:14:00figure out where
1:14:02you can
1:14:04ideally control
1:14:06a part of a critical technology supply
1:14:09chain.
1:14:10Right? So, I think it's not realistic
1:14:12for most countries to think they can
1:14:13completely in-source an end-to-end
1:14:15supply chain, certainly for a country
1:14:17like the UK, for example.
1:14:19>> you suspect is that opportunity for
1:14:20India?
1:14:21>> Well, what people here will will know
1:14:23better than me, but it's trying to
1:14:25identify
1:14:27You mean hardware supply chain? It but
1:14:29it could be it could be a hardware
1:14:30capability, it could be a software
1:14:31capability, it could be physical, it
1:14:34could be something it
1:14:35it could be quite broadly defined, but
1:14:38something that you know, as I said, very
1:14:42unlikely that you can end-to-end
1:14:43in-source a supply chain, but think
1:14:45about ASML, that company, critical
1:14:49component of the semi supply chain. So,
1:14:51if you're the Netherlands,
1:14:52right? That's that's good for you,
1:14:55right? To have In a world where
1:14:57hard power matters, the world is more
1:15:00fragmented, the geopolitical environment
1:15:03is more competitive, I think to protect
1:15:05yourself, you need to have an ASML
1:15:07strategy. So, figure out in the
1:15:08technologies of the future, where can
1:15:10you develop a capability that the world
1:15:12will need? So, that's kind of that's
1:15:14point one. The second point and where
1:15:15Sarvam comes into it is you have to
1:15:17diversify your risk and take a portfolio
1:15:20approach, right? So, there will be some
1:15:22And what does that mean? It means not
1:15:24having vendor lock-in, right? Making
1:15:26sure you're building applications and
1:15:27systems that are not relying on a single
1:15:29provider. And look, for some things you
1:15:32want a
1:15:33front-end US model.
1:15:35Some things you want to have data
1:15:36sovereignty and compute and being
1:15:39provided domestically. You don't need
1:15:41that for everything, but what you need
1:15:42to do is think about your portfolio,
1:15:44figure out where you can dial some
1:15:47things up and dial some things down,
1:15:49where can use open source, where can you
1:15:50rely on Sarvam, where is it fine to pull
1:15:53something off the shelf from another
1:15:54country you can switch in and out. So,
1:15:57that's where Sarvam comes in is building
1:15:59that portfolio approach. And then the
1:16:01third thing is partnerships.
1:16:03And actually, look, yes, the world is
1:16:05more contested, but
1:16:07partnerships matter, trust matters, and
1:16:10there will be some things that you can
1:16:11work with other countries on to
1:16:14to mean that
1:16:16You don't have to
1:16:16>> you you can't do everything yourself,
1:16:18but you have enough trusted
1:16:19relationships that you can rely on them.
1:16:21Um and again, you wouldn't fully rely on
1:16:23them, but as I said, these are these
1:16:24three components, if you do all three of
1:16:27those, you're giving yourself as much
1:16:28sovereignty as possible. But what does
1:16:30that mean, sovereignty? What it means is
1:16:32you know, an ability to deploy the
1:16:33technology confidently in your own
1:16:36country according to your values, your
1:16:38laws, your priorities.
1:16:40>> But you say deploy and not develop. Oh,
1:16:42sorry.
1:16:43In order to deploy it in accordance with
1:16:46your and have reliable trusted access to
1:16:49being able to deploy it, which is why
1:16:50you need that portfolio approach. And
1:16:52actually having some whether you're
1:16:54relying on open source or homegrown
1:16:56models all plays into a part of that. Um
1:16:59But in a way you're saying it's better
1:17:01for a country
1:17:03to rely on homegrown or open source
1:17:07rather than relying on American or
1:17:08Chinese
1:17:09>> think you can be that binary, Nicholas,
1:17:11right? I think if you look at the range
1:17:12of use cases and what's realistic for
1:17:15any one country to do,
1:17:17right? You have to look at your your
1:17:19kind of approach to technology as a
1:17:22portfolio.
1:17:23And then there will be a range where if
1:17:25I've got very sensitive security
1:17:27applications, I I
1:17:30want probably an air-gapped cloud,
1:17:32right? I I don't want to be relying on
1:17:34anyone else. I can't have anyone else
1:17:36kill switch that, right? If I'm doing a
1:17:38healthcare application domestically, I
1:17:41might be a bit more okay with the model
1:17:43provider as long as I don't have
1:17:45lock-in, and I can switch out different
1:17:47providers. Could be open source, could
1:17:49be domestic, could be foreign. And you
1:17:51would be skeptical of sharing your data.
1:17:53>> to stay, right? I would want the I there
1:17:55I would want my data sovereignty, and
1:17:57I'd want the compute and to be domestic.
1:17:59And then there'll be some other
1:18:00commercial applications where
1:18:02actually, it's quicker and easier and
1:18:04cheaper to use some foreign thing, and
1:18:07it's it's not mission-critical,
1:18:10and it's just actually I want to
1:18:11prioritize cost and speed. I think India
1:18:13has done it for financial data already,
1:18:15where it's hosted in India. Yeah.
1:18:18I suspect soon all Indian data will be
1:18:20hosted in India. Yeah, I I look, all
1:18:22countries are not just India, all
1:18:23countries are thinking about these
1:18:25issues differently to the how they did
1:18:27in the past because the geopolitical
1:18:28environment has changed. So, you have to
1:18:31think about sovereignty. We're in a
1:18:32world where
1:18:34countries have weaponized supply chains,
1:18:37there's more geopolitical competition,
1:18:39and you you can't afford not to have
1:18:44resilience. And do you think the world
1:18:46will continue to move in this direction
1:18:47where we're kind of like
1:18:50I don't know if I can call it
1:18:51deglobalization where everybody
1:18:54>> It's derisking. I I think you know, you
1:18:56you think about supply chain, it used to
1:18:58be all about just-in-time physical
1:19:00supply chain. It used to be all about
1:19:01just-in-time, and now it's about
1:19:03just-in-case. But do you mean how
1:19:06countries now operate on their own
1:19:08versus the kind of coming together
1:19:10global order?
1:19:12There used to be like
1:19:14I think consensus building maybe up
1:19:18until 5 years ago. Right now it seems to
1:19:20be everybody for them For their own,
1:19:22yeah. I think it Yeah. It's not as dark
1:19:25as that in the sense that you have to be
1:19:29more resilient, right? You have to think
1:19:31about sovereignty because that
1:19:32multilateral rules-based system, much as
1:19:35it existed,
1:19:36Let me give you an analogy you will
1:19:38like. Like cricket used to have a World
1:19:40Cup where all the countries in the world
1:19:41came to play and compete.
1:19:43Now there are 20 different leagues.
1:19:46One big league, many small leagues, some
1:19:48irrelevant leagues.
1:19:49Something like that.
1:19:54Maybe triggered by the Americans.
1:20:00With tariffs and everything else that
1:20:01they're doing.
1:20:03I do still think there is a role for
1:20:05partnerships and cooperation. So look
1:20:07what India has just done. Signed trade
1:20:09agreement with the UK, signed a trade
1:20:11agreement
1:20:12with the EU. Uh the EU has signed a
1:20:14trade agreement with Latin America. The
1:20:16UK joined the
1:20:18Trans-Pacific
1:20:20Partnership.
1:20:21Is currently talking to the Gulf about
1:20:23doing that. So
1:20:25the ASEAN countries are figuring out how
1:20:27to deepen their economic cooperation. So
1:20:29yes, the US has changed its approach.
1:20:32And not just it with this
1:20:33administration, those changes have been
1:20:35in place for a while. It's changed its
1:20:37approach to trade in particular and and
1:20:40it and how it views global defense.
1:20:44But that doesn't mean that other
1:20:45countries
1:20:47have given up on the idea that there can
1:20:49be mutually beneficial trading
1:20:51relationships.
1:20:52>> So lots of different partnerships. And
1:20:54and that they can form mutually
1:20:56beneficial partnerships. Whether that's
1:20:58in technology, whether that's in goods,
1:20:59whether that's in sharing
1:21:01critical minerals supply chain. So I
1:21:04don't think it's as stark as every
1:21:05country is just out for itself, but
1:21:08clearly you have to if you're running a
1:21:10country be more focused on resilience
1:21:13and sovereignty than you were
1:21:155 years ago. Are governments forgiving?
1:21:17Does it come down to one person? I'm
1:21:19just painting a scenario. Let's assume
1:21:23Trump's era comes to an end and there is
1:21:25a new president. I don't know, it could
1:21:27be his vice president, it could be
1:21:29Democrats, whoever comes into power.
1:21:32And the UK has a new Mhm. prime
1:21:35minister.
1:21:37Do you go back to zero and start all
1:21:39over or do you remember and you think
1:21:40that oh this person did this? Uh so a
1:21:43couple of things. One is to remember
1:21:45that some of these forces have been in
1:21:46place
1:21:48before President Trump.
1:21:50Uh and it
1:21:52Do I think
1:21:54a future US president is going to
1:21:57suddenly cut all the tariffs? Mhm.
1:22:00All right, the baseline of tariffs for
1:22:02the US is going to be higher in the
1:22:03future. I think regardless who the
1:22:05president is.
1:22:06Um not least because whoever the new
1:22:08president is will have got used to the
1:22:10tariff revenue. It's quite hard thing to
1:22:12to get rid of. Do you believe that
1:22:14tariffs are tariffs are inherently a bad
1:22:16thing cuz many countries have custom
1:22:18duties.
1:22:19And do you produce? Yeah, I Look, I I'm
1:22:22someone who generally believes in free
1:22:24trade, right? I I I'm on the free trade
1:22:27side of things. I think it's important
1:22:29that that trade is uh fair and there are
1:22:32level playing fields, which is why you
1:22:35know, if I think about China's
1:22:37experience in the
1:22:39joining the global trade system, when
1:22:41that was that decision was made in 2001,
1:22:43then there was a I think at the time
1:22:45reasonable belief that that
1:22:49bringing China into that system would A
1:22:51impact its political outlook. Like take
1:22:54China for example. But it But it What
1:22:57happened is China didn't play by the
1:22:59same set of trading rules that everyone
1:23:01else played with. So how do you deal
1:23:03with something like that? If I were
1:23:04China
1:23:05and I say I will not let your technology
1:23:08enter my country, I will build replicas
1:23:10and subsidize it for my own people, I
1:23:13will
1:23:14put tariffs on all the goods that are
1:23:16American coming into my country.
1:23:18What is left in America's playbook? I'll
1:23:21also artificially deflate my currency to
1:23:23make my trade more competent than yours.
1:23:27What's left in America's playbook
1:23:31than to mimic the action of the other
1:23:33country?
1:23:35And And that's where I think, as I said,
1:23:37the trade has to be fair and on a level
1:23:39playing field. And if you haven't got
1:23:41that, then this kind of, you know, free
1:23:44trade model that, you know, works in
1:23:47theory,
1:23:48it it it's it's harder to explain to
1:23:51your citizens and to say that this is
1:23:53fine in practice. And it's not just the
1:23:55US, the EU has done the same thing with
1:23:58uh tar putting tariffs on Chinese
1:24:01electric vehicles because of the
1:24:03subsidization
1:24:05that happens domestically, uh
1:24:07which is then that's not a level playing
1:24:09field, right? If people are freely,
1:24:10fairly competing, then trade can be
1:24:12mutually beneficial. But if one side is
1:24:15unfairly advantaging its exporters with
1:24:17government subsidies to that extent,
1:24:20>> [snorts]
1:24:21>> uh and then they have artificially low
1:24:22prices, then obviously countries are
1:24:25going to take action. And then again,
1:24:26that's not just the US, that's that's
1:24:27the EU. So
1:24:29Can I make a counter argument to that?
1:24:31Yeah.
1:24:32I don't remember what book I was reading
1:24:34this in, but at one point in time in
1:24:36UK's history,
1:24:38Birmingham was the center of innovation.
1:24:42A lot of the patents that were being
1:24:43created in the world happened in that
1:24:45one tiny place.
1:24:48I don't remember where I read this, but
1:24:50they were making a case for how
1:24:52Birmingham and the local economy shut
1:24:55down to foreign products.
1:24:57So the industry locally could thrive.
1:25:01And when they came up to scale and came
1:25:03up to a certain quality, they opened up
1:25:05all over again. Yeah, there's there's a
1:25:07there's an infant industry
1:25:09argument
1:25:11that has,
1:25:12as I said, every stage, every country
1:25:15will have a different approach to this.
1:25:16But, you know, in general between
1:25:18developed countries,
1:25:21where there is a similarity in approach,
1:25:24freer trade is
1:25:26is better in uh in my view. Uh as I
1:25:29said, the key is is it being done in a
1:25:32fair way where there's a level playing
1:25:34field. And particularly with China,
1:25:36you know, that has not been the case, um
1:25:38which is which is a problem. And I think
1:25:40will increasingly become a problem
1:25:41because more and more countries are
1:25:43having to deal with
1:25:46the Chinese development model, which is
1:25:47very export-oriented where that to your
1:25:49point
1:25:50they don't prioritize domestic
1:25:52consumption, they prioritize exports.
1:25:55Uh and then lots of countries now are
1:25:56absorbing a huge amount of Chinese
1:25:58imports. Um and Including India?
1:26:01Including the rest of the world. If you
1:26:02look at what's happened, you know, the
1:26:04US obviously has slowed that down.
1:26:07Chinese exports though and the Chinese
1:26:09trade surplus is a record high as a
1:26:12percentage of global GDP. So all those
1:26:13exports are going to all these other
1:26:15countries. So I think there'll be
1:26:16increasing tension with these other
1:26:17countries. You know, the EU has already
1:26:19put on tariffs on on Chinese EVs. So I
1:26:22think I think you will you will see
1:26:24that. But look, this focus on
1:26:26as your point though about your question
1:26:28about, you know, what happens if there's
1:26:29a new new president, where do things
1:26:32reset to?
1:26:33COVID also was the clarifying
1:26:37moment that many of us lived through in
1:26:39government that made us all focus about
1:26:41supply chains and the resilience of
1:26:42those supply chains. So that You don't
1:26:45forget that and that changes your
1:26:47approach. I think those people who worry
1:26:50about national security were
1:26:53nervous around Huawei telecoms
1:26:55equipment. That was the other big event
1:26:57that happened while I was in government
1:26:59where we went through a process of
1:27:00deciding that we weren't going to rely
1:27:01on Chinese telecoms equipment. And that
1:27:04is before AI,
1:27:06we were focused on that. And that was an
1:27:07expensive and disruptive decision for
1:27:09many countries to take. These things
1:27:11stay, right? Regardless who the US
1:27:13president is or British prime minister,
1:27:15you know, those are structural features
1:27:17that now need to be incorporated in into
1:27:19your thinking.
1:27:22I'm not going to talk to Akshata like
1:27:24she's Rishi's wife or Narayan Murthy's
1:27:26daughter.
1:27:28Uh
1:27:29I think you've been dealt
1:27:33if this were a poker game, Yeah.
1:27:36a really hard set of cards.
1:27:38>> play poker, so I will
1:27:39>> [laughter]
1:27:40>> I'll follow along. I can I can
1:27:42I can I can translate you. I I um but
1:27:45sure, I get I I I
1:27:47But you were saying um
1:27:49dealt a hard set of cards. Yeah. I feel
1:27:51like
1:27:53there is a emotional tax
1:27:58to being interpreted
1:28:01as a extremely successful man's
1:28:04daughter.
1:28:06Where if we were to define happiness as
1:28:11rate of change in a way,
1:28:15very hard to get there. I think people
1:28:17often look at
1:28:19the children of very accomplished men
1:28:23versus women, you mean? men and women as
1:28:25being lucky.
1:28:27But
1:28:29I think
1:28:30the counter is true. I feel like they're
1:28:32some of the most unluckiest people
1:28:35because it's so much harder for them to
1:28:39actually feel a sense of accomplishment.
1:28:41Sense of self, right?
1:28:43Then
1:28:44to have your husband suddenly become the
1:28:46prime minister,
1:28:48it can't have been fun for you.
1:28:50So interesting. So
1:28:52a couple of things.
1:28:54Um
1:28:56I'm hugely proud of my dad and I'm
1:28:59hugely proud of Rishi.
1:29:01But do you know, Nick, and this is maybe
1:29:03come this comes back to that unorthodox
1:29:05thinking that I have.
1:29:08I haven't let it burden me as much,
1:29:11right? So let's talk about my dad. It's
1:29:13partly a timing thing.
1:29:15Um
1:29:16Emphasis was
1:29:19not this kind of
1:29:21what it it what it became in time, you
1:29:23know, hugely successful
1:29:26uh kind of tech uh
1:29:29um
1:29:29start what was a startup and then became
1:29:31a tech business.
1:29:33Um
1:29:34it was a company my dad started
1:29:38because he was looking at how could he
1:29:43add value
1:29:45to India. And he thought originally, you
1:29:47know all of this, right? He thought he
1:29:48communism was the way and then he had a
1:29:51stint in Western Europe and
1:29:55became a big fan of capitalism. So So he
1:29:57was thinking, well, how can I He told me
1:30:00some crazy stories around that. What
1:30:01happened when he was traveling to
1:30:03>> Hitchhiking, all of that, right? That's
1:30:05like a whole another podcast, but
1:30:07um
1:30:08So for him,
1:30:09he he figured out that economic uh
1:30:12development and economic success gave
1:30:16you
1:30:17a
1:30:18a great deal of power on the global
1:30:20stage and and so he said, well, how can
1:30:22I play a small role in helping India
1:30:24um develop that that um
1:30:28credibility and and and stand taller.
1:30:32Um having said that, it was not an
1:30:33overnight success and um and so I
1:30:38saw him in many ways beavering away,
1:30:41right? At something he believed in. He
1:30:43had a
1:30:44Infosys, I I don't know if you remember,
1:30:47but
1:30:48the motto that he came up with was um
1:30:51powered by intellect, driven by values,
1:30:54right? So here he was someone who
1:30:57had a strong has still a strong moral
1:30:59compass
1:31:00and he believed that um
1:31:03you you power that moral compass with
1:31:06deep intellectual rigor.
1:31:08Um with skills that he had, which
1:31:11happened to be in the tech space. Well,
1:31:12he was an engineer.
1:31:14Um
1:31:15but it was not an overnight success. I'm
1:31:17not saying it was a failure, but it took
1:31:19a long time. So I grew up
1:31:22very much being my own person.
1:31:24Um partly my thinking, partly
1:31:26circumstances.
1:31:29And and by the time Infosys became uh
1:31:34more well-known, I was studying in the
1:31:36US. And
1:31:38that also was a slightly unorthodox
1:31:40choice because
1:31:42um I I guess I could have gone into
1:31:45engineering um in India, um
1:31:48but that wasn't my passion.
1:31:50And I always valued breadth um and the
1:31:53liberal arts education offered that and
1:31:55that was on the West Coast in
1:31:56California.
1:31:58So it was far away somewhat.
1:32:01And
1:32:02uh
1:32:04and always made my professional
1:32:06decisions, you know, I I I got the jobs
1:32:08I did on my own. I I I pursued
1:32:11opportunities that I created. Um
1:32:15and so while I was hugely proud of my
1:32:18father, I was also used to standing on
1:32:20my own two feet, right?
1:32:22And then I met Rishi um
1:32:26and this has nothing to do with my
1:32:28parents' success, but he reminded me a
1:32:30lot of my dad. Because he too, like my
1:32:33father, had this huge passion
1:32:37for his country. Mhm. And
1:32:41and I remember one of the things Rishi
1:32:42you said very early on, we were talking
1:32:44about how
1:32:47your parents' journey to the UK had
1:32:49transformed your family's life.
1:32:51And and then, you know, they of course
1:32:52work really hard to provide you with
1:32:54this education and you would one day
1:32:56hope to grow up and
1:32:58in your own way
1:33:00create a platform, create opportunities
1:33:03for lots of other young
1:33:05Rishis to have
1:33:06um boys and girls to have these kinds of
1:33:08opportunities. Um so that reminded me a
1:33:11lot of my dad.
1:33:12Um
1:33:13and so I was
1:33:16again
1:33:18you know, Rishi wasn't in the plan for
1:33:20many reasons, but I
1:33:23but it was inspiring to me. And so for
1:33:25me, my dad
1:33:28has always been someone, yes, he's been
1:33:30successful, he's done really well, etc.,
1:33:32but to me
1:33:35he's been an inspiring figure and that's
1:33:37what I've taken away from it and said,
1:33:39how can I then introduce that in my own
1:33:41life through my own journey? And by the
1:33:42way, I'm not a technologist, I'm not an
1:33:45engineer.
1:33:48And I never felt bad about that because
1:33:49I it was very clear to me from very
1:33:51early on I'm going to carve my own path.
1:33:54And so
1:33:55absolutely, and my and and look, you
1:33:58know,
1:33:58Rishi and I got together, etc., Rishi
1:34:00became PM, but
1:34:01even then, that's what I was telling you
1:34:03about lessons at 10, right? Rishi's PM,
1:34:05he does his thing, I would never
1:34:06interfere in his role, in his job,
1:34:09but I was very clear that I
1:34:11was also going to in some way
1:34:13>> Mhm.
1:34:14Thank you.
1:34:16for create my own path Mhm. and do
1:34:18something that I deeply cared about.
1:34:22And and so
1:34:26I guess I'm I'm
1:34:30I didn't feel the pressure in the same
1:34:31way. Right. Um
1:34:34and so I don't
1:34:37for lack of a better term, I don't have
1:34:38a chip on my shoulder about it. I think
1:34:40I feel so
1:34:41Thank you.
1:34:42I feel quite grateful that I've had
1:34:48through for many different reasons
1:34:49access to so many opportunities.
1:34:53And every time I'm thinking, how can I
1:34:55make it my own? And that's been
1:34:56something from when I was very young. So
1:34:59forget Rishi and your dad.
1:35:01Where does Akshata's validation come
1:35:03from? Mhm.
1:35:06So one of my values, I have three values
1:35:09um and we've spoken about some of those
1:35:11things. Um
1:35:13compassion,
1:35:15curiosity, and personal integrity. And
1:35:18personal integrity to me is I define it
1:35:21as being authentic to who I am.
1:35:25Others may not like it.
1:35:27Others may not understand it.
1:35:30But if it if it sits well inside of me,
1:35:32you know, we're talking earlier about
1:35:33intuition, right? I'm I I
1:35:36lean into my intuition more
1:35:39than than average. Certainly between the
1:35:41two of us, I'm I'm more on the intuitive
1:35:43side.
1:35:46Where does I think my
1:35:48Look, I'm not going to say I'm holier
1:35:50than thou and I don't seek validation,
1:35:51of course not. All of us do.
1:35:55I
1:35:58I really care about having impact,
1:36:01right?
1:36:02So what does that mean? Um
1:36:06you know, when we applied to Stanford,
1:36:08they ask you to write this essay and
1:36:10even today they still ask you to write
1:36:11the same essay. It's called at least one
1:36:14of the few essays you have to write um
1:36:16it the question is, what matters most to
1:36:18you and why?
1:36:22And um I remember writing
1:36:25about um
1:36:28rain in Mumbai, actually.
1:36:30Um
1:36:32because around that time I was 23.
1:36:35Um
1:36:36we were
1:36:38I haven't I haven't sort of spent a long
1:36:39time in Mumbai in a long in in a little
1:36:41while, but you know, the monsoon can be
1:36:43quite heavy.
1:36:45And for those of us who have a roof over
1:36:47our heads,
1:36:48we can observe the monsoon and um
1:36:51say,
1:36:53"Oh, that's pleasant."
1:36:55Um but for those of us who don't, it's
1:36:57less pleasant.
1:36:59And so I wrote about equality and how do
1:37:01I help create a
1:37:04a society
1:37:06where there is more equality.
1:37:08Um Equality of wealth? Not so equality
1:37:12of opportunity, at least. Not outcome?
1:37:15No outcome.
1:37:16And look, I was 23, hugely idealistic.
1:37:20And and I really wanted to do do
1:37:22something that helped
1:37:25society in some way, the broader
1:37:27society.
1:37:29And I'd seen my parents through my dad
1:37:31through Infosys and then my mother
1:37:32through the Infosys Foundation marry
1:37:35that impact from capitalism to
1:37:38philanthropy and I was I I that really
1:37:40moved me.
1:37:42That is what we used to And it's what we
1:37:43used to discuss a lot about.
1:37:45>> even at Stanford. And we'd have these
1:37:47big not big, but we'd have these
1:37:49debates, right? About
1:37:52CSR and Yeah, I I I
1:37:55>> come at it from a bit more of a
1:37:58traditionally
1:38:00capitalist
1:38:01>> Capitalistic
1:38:02economic [laughter] economic argument,
1:38:03yeah. And
1:38:04and actually stood out for again,
1:38:06especially in a business [clears throat]
1:38:07school environment,
1:38:09Rishi, you always stood out cuz you were
1:38:10always that the one person in whatever
1:38:12study group you were
1:38:13>> does it impact society? How does it
1:38:15impact the most vulnerable people? How
1:38:17does it I think it's all validation. If
1:38:20one person gets validation through
1:38:23a capitalistic win, Yeah. another gets
1:38:26it through a moralistic win or an
1:38:27altruistic win.
1:38:29It's all validation.
1:38:30>> No, fair enough. You're I feel like
1:38:32we're all seeking the same height. Yeah.
1:38:33The pathway is different. Different.
1:38:35Yeah. Yeah.
1:38:36I don't know that. Yeah, no, fair
1:38:37enough.
1:38:37>> That's that. The this pathway comes
1:38:39further down the journey than that
1:38:41pathway. Cuz I think you have to win at
1:38:42capitalism before you can win at
1:38:44morality. And that that was And and and
1:38:47many people will say, Nikhil, all well
1:38:49and good that you want to be altruistic,
1:38:50you don't have to pay the bills or you
1:38:52don't have to worry about paying the
1:38:53bills, right? I get that. But then I
1:38:55also feel a huge sense of responsibility
1:38:57as a result.
1:38:58>> And and to your point, you need to do
1:39:00the first bit. Mhm. You generate like
1:39:03which is what your dad did, right? It
1:39:04was you you have in that impact only
1:39:07because you've been able to
1:39:09create the wealth and create the
1:39:11platform the
1:39:12>> So So either I can be moan that and say
1:39:16Oh no. I'm either
1:39:19person X's daughter or person Y's wife
1:39:22etc. Or
1:39:25I can say
1:39:27I'm hugely lucky to have what I have.
1:39:29What do I do with it? So in the in the
1:39:30sense that blank canvas I've had much
1:39:33earlier in my life. Yeah.
1:39:35And let me tell you some of the pictures
1:39:38I've drawn have not been pretty, right?
1:39:40[laughter]
1:39:40But I've had the blank canvas and I and
1:39:42I I think that's
1:39:45that's
1:39:46it's also a little bit my personality.
1:39:49Like I don't
1:39:51It's that poem that you gave me, you
1:39:53know, when we first met or the one of
1:39:55the first gifts you gave me that Are you
1:39:57that guy who gives poems? No, he is not.
1:40:00He's given ME ONE
1:40:01>> [laughter]
1:40:02>> ONE.
1:40:07>> [laughter]
1:40:07>> IT WAS EARLY ON. IT WAS
1:40:10IT'S IT'S ONLY just been one. It
1:40:12[laughter] it has only been just one.
1:40:14But anyway but I knew of it anyway.
1:40:16That's why you gave it to me not like
1:40:18you introduced me to it.
1:40:19It's by Rudyard Kipling called If and
1:40:23my mother reminds me all the time that
1:40:25um
1:40:26these words are painted or carved in the
1:40:28in the changing rooms in in Centre Court
1:40:31in Wimbledon before you go out to play
1:40:32the tennis match.
1:40:34Why if
1:40:35I'm I'm not going to quote it exactly at
1:40:37all but you know, if you look at winning
1:40:39and losing as two sides of the same coin
1:40:41Mhm.
1:40:43then you
1:40:45you're truly a man. Yeah. If you can if
1:40:47you treat If you treat triumph and
1:40:48disaster and disaster as two imposters
1:40:51just the same, right?
1:40:53>> So so um
1:40:56I
1:40:57I
1:40:58I think that's that's
1:41:00the kind of stuff that made
1:41:01>> you are. That is my approach to life.
1:41:03Like you know, so you know, I started a
1:41:05fashion business
1:41:06we finished business school
1:41:08and then I was working in brand
1:41:09consulting.
1:41:11During business school I'd written a uh
1:41:13Before you get but that that point on
1:41:15the that is
1:41:16very who you are.
1:41:18You are much more
1:41:20which I've learned from. Like when you
1:41:22know, the good things happen, don't get
1:41:25carried away. Not that you're not
1:41:27Bad things happen.
1:41:28>> grateful, appreciative, all of that.
1:41:30Like when Rishi became PM. It's a huge
1:41:32moment but it didn't That's why I think
1:41:34we both kind of struggled down to that
1:41:35question because it wasn't like
1:41:37not because we don't honor it and are
1:41:40hugely proud of that moment.
1:41:43Great triumph. Mhm.
1:41:46But equally anyone who's had great
1:41:47triumph will tell you
1:41:49you also see great disasters, right?
1:41:52And then I It's it's very evolved
1:41:56that you accept
1:41:59the cards that you're dealt
1:42:01because many others in your position
1:42:03really struggle with it.
1:42:05I'll tell you another thing that is bad
1:42:07today. I don't know if it's good or bad
1:42:09but
1:42:11for somebody who gets their high from
1:42:15the moralistic altruistic wins in life
1:42:18society or pop culture has suddenly
1:42:21become conditioned
1:42:23in a manner
1:42:24where anybody who goes out and says
1:42:27they're doing something to do good
1:42:30the general emotion is distrust. Yeah.
1:42:33Yeah. Yeah.
1:42:34You're not you're not trying
1:42:37You almost feel like you're going
1:42:38against the tide.
1:42:39Timing is
1:42:41difficult. But but but there again
1:42:43Nikhil
1:42:45that's who I am. Mhm. Right? And that
1:42:48doesn't mean I
1:42:50I have won as such
1:42:52at at life, right? I've had my ups, I've
1:42:54had my downs.
1:42:56Um
1:42:59but I know
1:43:02I will always have stayed true to who I
1:43:04am
1:43:05and what my beliefs were.
1:43:07Yeah.
1:43:09And you have a very
1:43:10clear sense of that.
1:43:13Yeah, a clear I've a clear sense of who
1:43:14I am. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you have much
1:43:16I'm not going to impose that on you or
1:43:17or
1:43:18I mean I impose that a bit on you but
1:43:21>> [laughter]
1:43:21>> but we
1:43:23In the nice in the nice way. But but it
1:43:25it it it's so liberating. Mhm. Um and
1:43:28you know, another way to look at it is
1:43:30during the during the pandemic Rishi
1:43:32became Chancellor
1:43:35which all happened quite suddenly. So so
1:43:37I was with the kids a lot and you know,
1:43:38you're just trying to like figure out
1:43:40how to live this new life and I picked
1:43:42up Herman Hesse's book called Siddhartha
1:43:45again.
1:43:47And you you read about what what uh
1:43:51Lord Buddha said
1:43:54and it's the middle path.
1:43:56It's the balance. Mhm.
1:43:58That doesn't mean you shun
1:44:01desire desire
1:44:04but equally you don't
1:44:06shun um
1:44:09austerity. Mhm. Right? You you embrace
1:44:11both in a way because what comes out of
1:44:14that
1:44:15that those two extremes comes the middle
1:44:18path.
1:44:19And Anushka was saying this the other
1:44:20day. She if she's our youngest daughter,
1:44:22she's 13. She said
1:44:24the the Romans I hope because I don't
1:44:27know this philosophy as well as she
1:44:29does. She she was talking about the
1:44:31Stoics versus the Epicureans. Mhm.
1:44:34The Epicureans
1:44:36are all about
1:44:37>> than Roman. More Greek actually,
1:44:38exactly. The the Epicureans embraced
1:44:42desire Mhm. and and amusement
1:44:46>> Mhm. um
1:44:47and the Stoics
1:44:50somewhat shunned that.
1:44:53But actually the the happy place
1:44:56is somewhere in the middle.
1:44:58And it's not you're not on the moral
1:45:00high ground if you think
1:45:03you are a Stoic versus an Epicurean. And
1:45:07that's the balance, right? So I have
1:45:09always chased
1:45:13for lack of a better word, that balance.
1:45:15Mhm. And so even in the highs of highs
1:45:17of my parents' success
1:45:20and they've had their highs and their
1:45:21lows like any
1:45:23human being
1:45:25even in the highs and and lows of our
1:45:27own life together
1:45:30I've I've tried. I don't always succeed
1:45:33at finding that balance.
1:45:35Do you think you need to retain that
1:45:38balance throughout or is it
1:45:40okay to allow yourself to drift between
1:45:43both the sides?
1:45:44>> I definitely drift between both. And in
1:45:46fact I remember one of the first things
1:45:47my mother said to me, "Oh, what do you
1:45:49like about Rishi?"
1:45:51And I said he he just allows me to have
1:45:54more fun. Mhm.
1:45:58And we were talking earlier how our
1:45:59parents are diff diff you know, my
1:46:01family's more reserved,
1:46:04intellectual
1:46:06um
1:46:10quieter.
1:46:11I'm not saying that's bad and one is
1:46:13good and but I met Rishi who was
1:46:16lots of energy and lots of excitement
1:46:19about so many different things and and
1:46:22so I thought that was amazing. You know,
1:46:24a different way of looking at life.
1:46:26Um
1:46:27so I've always I I haven't the balance
1:46:30comes from embracing both I think. Yeah.
1:46:32Because then you say, "Oh, this doesn't
1:46:34quite feel right all the time or this
1:46:35doesn't quite feel right." And then you
1:46:38might say, "Well, how do you know? How
1:46:39do you know?" I think there's a feeling
1:46:41inside whether you want to call that
1:46:43intuition, it's gut, it's
1:46:46it's a kind of deep
1:46:48uh
1:46:48feeling you get and I've had that
1:46:51from a young as a young person. So I
1:46:53just I have a theory for this.
1:46:54>> Yeah.
1:46:55I feel like our South Indians
1:46:57>> Yeah.
1:46:58never saw
1:47:00war as frequently as the North Indians
1:47:02did. We didn't see conflict.
1:47:04>> I have the exact same theory. Yeah.
1:47:06People who don't know how long they're
1:47:08going to live for Embrace the moment.
1:47:10Embrace the moment. I think we have to
1:47:12learn from them to embrace the moment a
1:47:13bit more.
1:47:14>> Completely.
1:47:15Completely. In fact I would say
1:47:17I remember even in our wedding my mother
1:47:20and I we have these kinds of
1:47:21discussions.
1:47:23And she we both love history and that's
1:47:25exactly what her and I said is
1:47:28in general North Indian weddings tend to
1:47:31be
1:47:32bolder
1:47:33and um
1:47:35quite fun.
1:47:36And South Indian weddings seem more tame
1:47:39in in comparison and you're absolutely
1:47:41right. That you have to make the most
1:47:46of what you have when you have it. So
1:47:48again, no moral kind of judgment about
1:47:52it.
1:47:52Um
1:47:54but have that but know that that life is
1:47:56not just about that, right?
1:47:59Yeah, so maybe middle ground is the the
1:48:01middle path, yeah.
1:48:03Almost always the answer.
1:48:05Almost for so many things. Yeah,
1:48:07absolutely. Yeah, you have to
1:48:12you have to develop that
1:48:15ability
1:48:18not to get carried away by success but
1:48:21equally not to be so deflated by
1:48:24failure. You you know, that said when
1:48:26thinking about
1:48:27failure, there's good and bad ways to
1:48:29deal with it.
1:48:32You you've got to turn it into something
1:48:34positive
1:48:35but that requires a mindset where
1:48:39if something bad happens
1:48:41your store the story you tell yourself
1:48:44about it can't be one which is victim
1:48:46centered. Mhm. Where like this bad thing
1:48:49happened because I was a victim of this
1:48:50or victim of that and all these bad
1:48:52things happened to me. You have to be
1:48:54able to more objectively look at it and
1:48:56just self reflect and say, "What did I
1:48:58not quite get right? What did I
1:49:00misjudge?"
1:49:01And turn it then it then you can turn it
1:49:02into something positive where you say,
1:49:04"Okay, now how do I improve my process
1:49:07for the future?" And and you've always
1:49:08said this to me. You said you'd be
1:49:09kinder to yourself cuz I'd be beating
1:49:11myself up and you always say be kinder
1:49:14to yourself.
1:49:14>> say to Rishi, I say this to the girls
1:49:16cuz we have two teenage girls. They're
1:49:1713 and 14 and I say
1:49:21if
1:49:22the person you have to be kindest to
1:49:24first is yourself, then you understand
1:49:26deep inside what that actually means
1:49:29before you can practice it in the real
1:49:31world.
1:49:32And I know we talk about that a lot. And
1:49:34and you remember if you're in these
1:49:36jobs, if you're leading, that
1:49:39most of the decisions that you make
1:49:41almost by definition are 50/50
1:49:43decisions.
1:49:44And if they were not
1:49:46like someone else would have made it,
1:49:49and and so the only decisions that come
1:49:51to you are the exceptionally hard 50/50
1:49:53ones. And you in terms of being kind to
1:49:56yourself, you have to recognize you're
1:49:56not going to get all of them right. Like
1:50:00you know you and you are in that
1:50:02position
1:50:03and someone else said this to me, a very
1:50:05successful technology executive said
1:50:07this to me at the early meeting he had
1:50:09with me and actually in Downing Street.
1:50:10He said that you're in this position
1:50:11because your ability to make those
1:50:13decisions is on on average better than
1:50:16most other people. Right, your judgment
1:50:18is on average better or you wouldn't be
1:50:19sitting here, I wouldn't be talking to
1:50:20you. So trust that and have some
1:50:22confidence in it and and then, you know,
1:50:24when things don't go right, as long as
1:50:26you're honestly self-reflective about it
1:50:29recognize good and bad outcomes of the
1:50:31same process, reflect and then think
1:50:32what you can learn from it, take away
1:50:34for the next time. You know, that you
1:50:36know, that is a very I mean as I learned
1:50:39how to do that, not perfectly, but
1:50:41because I still help me and you're still
1:50:42learning. But it's that is it's a very
1:50:44necessary part of being a good leader is
1:50:47how you
1:50:48No matter what you do, it's not just
1:50:49political leadership. I just
1:50:51understanding these failures, how to
1:50:52cope with them, how to then turn them
1:50:54into something positive so that you grow
1:50:56and it doesn't consume you cuz you can
1:50:58get into a negative spiral off it where
1:51:00it's very damaging. I've become
1:51:03really fascinated by this term called
1:51:05metacognition, right? Which is thinking
1:51:08about the thinking. So look at an
1:51:10outcome and you say, okay, outcome X
1:51:13happened, why did it happen? Why did I
1:51:16behave the way I did?
1:51:18Did I deploy my strengths and
1:51:20weaknesses? Why are those my strengths
1:51:22versus these?
1:51:24Um and then regulating your thinking.
1:51:27Metaregulation, right? I thought I think
1:51:30that is um
1:51:32metacognitive regulation. Metacognitive
1:51:35I I I just think that's just a a
1:51:36fascinating way for where
1:51:39humans are heading.
1:51:41I find most words which have meta in the
1:51:43beginning are very interesting.
1:51:45>> [laughter]
1:51:46>> Exactly. Let's just add
1:51:49metacognition.
1:51:50>> sounds good. Yeah.
1:51:51>> Metacognitive regulation.
1:51:52>> Yeah. I must say you both make a really
1:51:55good case for marriage.
1:51:58>> [laughter]
1:51:59>> That's good to hear. SOME DAYS
1:52:03I'M GOING to clip that AND PLAY IT
1:52:04>> [laughter]
1:52:05>> AS A RINGTONE.
1:52:08IT'S SO WEIRD YOU SAID THAT CUZ THAT'S
1:52:09exactly the same thing I [laughter] was
1:52:10going to say. That's going to be our
1:52:11ringtone.
1:52:13We're very yin and yang.
1:52:15But it comes with more
1:52:17friction in a way
1:52:19because what we're talking about right
1:52:21at the beginning cuz we approach things
1:52:23differently and we are quite different,
1:52:25but there's a I'm going to give you You
1:52:28know, there's a common set of values and
1:52:30and and so the the product of it, I
1:52:32think it is better as a result of the
1:52:34combination of us on most things. We get
1:52:36to a better answer, but
1:52:37>> silly example. There's a There's
1:52:39>> have to say this before your deep
1:52:40thought. I'll finish this thought. Rishi
1:52:43Rishi
1:52:44>> [laughter]
1:52:45>> We turned 30 around the same time. We
1:52:47were in LA at the time and this new ice
1:52:49cream shop opened and I said to Rishi,
1:52:51you know
1:52:52they have like 30 flavors. It's all
1:52:55natural, etc.
1:52:57And he's like, oh no, I just like
1:52:58vanilla. So we go there and they do have
1:53:0130 flavors, right? Like Sichuan
1:53:03peppercorn ice cream. Oh, I love that.
1:53:05Yeah. Passion fruit, I don't know. Black
1:53:09pepper, all sorts of things.
1:53:11And
1:53:12I mean, Rishi picks vanilla.
1:53:15And I'm like
1:53:18what do you mean? And he's like, well,
1:53:19what would you pick?
1:53:21And on purpose I picked the most bizarre
1:53:23flavor that is because that's kind of my
1:53:25approach to life. Like
1:53:29give me a give me a situation and I will
1:53:33look at it with a totally risk-taking
1:53:36mindset. Mhm. Whereas Rishi
1:53:39wouldn't That wouldn't be your first
1:53:40step. No. You wouldn't say what is the
1:53:42most risky thing to do. I mean, I'm
1:53:44exaggerating, but but but you would say,
1:53:46well, what's the sensible The rest of
1:53:48that story Right. That all sounds great.
1:53:50The rest of that story is You [laughter]
1:53:52hated your flavor? You didn't She didn't
1:53:53like the
1:53:54right? So we left and then she didn't
1:53:56like it. And then we've gone and then
1:53:58she then I have No, no.
1:54:00No, then she ate mine, right? [laughter]
1:54:02And then I'm stuck not cuz I feel like
1:54:05I'm forced to eat this thing that I
1:54:06don't like. You you know,
1:54:08>> [laughter]
1:54:08>> and then so
1:54:09it's all very well. That's the yin and
1:54:11yang. Yeah, the yin and yang. When I
1:54:12think of marriage Mhm.
1:54:14I feel like it has worked so well Mhm.
1:54:19in a certain way it's a great way to
1:54:21ensure
1:54:23against
1:54:25loneliness and always have attention and
1:54:28validation, the concept of family.
1:54:31Because
1:54:32you don't get the peaks and the troughs.
1:54:33You but you get a little bit every day.
1:54:37I'm trying to think um
1:54:40I mean, I I think
1:54:42I mean, I I
1:54:43without question
1:54:46could not function
1:54:48if we weren't married, right? And in
1:54:50terms of profes- professionally
1:54:51function, not just personally.
1:54:54Cuz I
1:54:55I can't imagine
1:54:57doing all the things that I've had to do
1:54:58on my own.
1:55:00So and it's your point loneliness, not
1:55:02just in a social companionship
1:55:05perspective.
1:55:07Which I actually I mean, that's that's
1:55:08nice, but I there's much deeper than
1:55:10that. It's like having this You know,
1:55:12people talk about life partner, whatever
1:55:13the word you want to use. It's It's
1:55:15called soulmate. So there there's this
1:55:17partnership, but I'm not even trying to
1:55:19get to that bit of the I think I should
1:55:21almost more practical. I think that
1:55:23there is that and that is obviously
1:55:25wonderful.
1:55:26But the slightly more practical aspect
1:55:29of it is is
1:55:31someone who you can
1:55:34share these very difficult things with
1:55:37and who can support you you need it.
1:55:40Or not support. I think it's it's brings
1:55:42out the best in you. Yeah, I you know,
1:55:44and sees you in a way that not everyone
1:55:45sees you.
1:55:45>> And where the sum
1:55:47is greater than
1:55:49the parts, right?
1:55:51So certainly for I
1:55:54That is particularly acute
1:55:56I think for everybody, but you know, if
1:55:59you're in one of these very
1:56:00high-pressure situations.
1:56:03You know, you you can't do that on your
1:56:05own. Well, I certainly could not have
1:56:06done it on on my own. He's not your
1:56:09therapist. Yeah, he's
1:56:11Maybe these days he could be your
1:56:11therapist, but that's not the same. For
1:56:13me it's a bit like that.
1:56:15>> [laughter]
1:56:16>> Probably a bit tricky if you're prime
1:56:17minister.
1:56:18But but but I'll tell you the counter to
1:56:20that, right?
1:56:22So we have
1:56:26together faced
1:56:28ups and downs um
1:56:31whilst staying true to who we are, etc.
1:56:34But like one of the criticisms I've
1:56:36faced as well
1:56:39Don't
1:56:40What's your identity, right? Because as
1:56:43you rightly said, you know, you're your
1:56:44father's daughter or you're your
1:56:45husband's wife.
1:56:48And so
1:56:50um
1:56:52It's It's got me thinking, you know,
1:56:54what's identity about? How do you define
1:56:57yourself?
1:57:00And is it
1:57:03is it based on
1:57:06where you live, what language you speak,
1:57:08what you eat?
1:57:13But we're saying you're different,
1:57:14right?
1:57:15Um
1:57:18And you know, I've lately I've been
1:57:19getting a lot of pushback on my accent,
1:57:22right?
1:57:23You grow up in Bangalore
1:57:30Do you understand any of that? I don't.
1:57:32>> [laughter]
1:57:38[laughter]
1:57:42>> Just like being at home.
1:57:44>> [laughter]
1:57:44>> Um anyway,
1:57:46um
1:57:47I'll come back to that accent thing in a
1:57:49second, actually. Um but but I've Does
1:57:52Nikhil speak more like your mom or dad?
1:57:54I would assume more like my dad. Yeah.
1:57:57My South Canada, right? Yeah. Cuz my
1:57:58dad, yeah.
1:58:00Um
1:58:02So what's Where do you get your identity
1:58:04from?
1:58:08So So for me, my identity comes
1:58:15from genuinely
1:58:18having impact. And I'll unpack that. So
1:58:21it's
1:58:22how can I give to the communities in
1:58:24which I live?
1:58:26How can I
1:58:28stay true to my values?
1:58:30How can I
1:58:32honor my heritage?
1:58:36And so
1:58:38whatever
1:58:39we do professionally
1:58:42um even how we raise our children, I'm
1:58:44constantly thinking I'm
1:58:47probably less worried than most about
1:58:49some of the more
1:58:51I'm not going to use the word
1:58:52superficial, some of the more tangible
1:58:54concepts of identity like what food we
1:58:57eat or what language we speak or um How
1:59:01you dress. Or how you dress, how I
1:59:03sound.
1:59:05Um, but but
1:59:09staying
1:59:10true to your values, staying true
1:59:14to to what matters most to you.
1:59:17Um
1:59:19You know, that's how I've defined Oh,
1:59:20thank you. That's how I've defined my
1:59:22identity versus
1:59:26versus it being
1:59:30trying to match someone else's or trying
1:59:32to meet societal expectations of what
1:59:34identity should be, right? And so like
1:59:37with my accent, for example.
1:59:40Actually, let's take a step back. In you
1:59:42know, I remember Rishi and I came to
1:59:43India for the G20.
1:59:46And it was incredibly emotional for me,
1:59:48Nikhil, because I was coming
1:59:52to
1:59:53to the place
1:59:55where I was raised.
1:59:59I was coming to the place that defined
2:00:01my heritage, of which I'm very proud of.
2:00:04I was coming
2:00:07to a place that was my former home.
2:00:10But
2:00:11in a way representing a different
2:00:15home, right? So,
2:00:18how do you handle that? And that's that
2:00:21really got me thinking about, well, in a
2:00:23scenario like this
2:00:26who are you? Are you British or are you
2:00:29Indian?
2:00:30Are you neither? Are you both?
2:00:33And it reminds me of what I think PM
2:00:36Modi said, I think in 2015.
2:00:40Uh
2:00:41maybe when he was in the UK for that
2:00:43Wembley Wembley
2:00:46uh event.
2:00:48And he said, you know, the Indians who
2:00:50are living in the UK are all part of the
2:00:52living bridge, the Indian diaspora.
2:00:56Um
2:00:57and and they connect Britain to India
2:01:01and vice versa. And so I'm but one of
2:01:04the people living on this bridge, you
2:01:06know, the bridge that
2:01:08you know, when you think of a bridge, it
2:01:09connects two places.
2:01:11It doesn't belong just to one place or
2:01:12the other.
2:01:14So for me, my when I think deeply about
2:01:16who I am
2:01:18in in in the context of of current day,
2:01:21I am part of that living bridge. I feel
2:01:25incredibly at home in India. I am
2:01:28incredibly emotional about
2:01:31my um I use the word emotional because
2:01:33I'm
2:01:34it moves me. My my heritage, I'm
2:01:36incredibly proud of my heritage, my um
2:01:40how I was raised.
2:01:42Um
2:01:44but I have also had these incredibly
2:01:46meaningful experiences in the UK. That's
2:01:49where we're raising our family.
2:01:52And I am deeply committed to that
2:01:54community as well. So the things that
2:01:56I'm engaging in now
2:01:59and I'm doing them in areas that mean
2:02:00things to me. So in arts, culture
2:02:04history, entrepreneurship
2:02:06um creativity
2:02:09uh these are areas that speak to me and
2:02:12I'm constantly looking at how can I
2:02:14honor
2:02:16both these places
2:02:18and play a small role in bringing them
2:02:19together.
2:02:21So so long-winded way is
2:02:24um
2:02:25I'm very much a Bangalore girl with a
2:02:27British accent.
2:02:29>> [laughter]
2:02:29>> You're not as big an RCB fan as me.
2:02:31There we go. True. Jayanagar girl.
2:02:33Jayanagar girl, yes, yes, yes. We
2:02:37probably went to many of the same
2:02:38restaurants cuz we're the age. Yeah.
2:02:41Well, I still think you're quite a bit
2:02:43younger, but you know.
2:02:44>> No, 39 45.
2:02:45>> but it's like when you hit 40, yeah,
2:02:48yeah. 18 MTR.
2:02:50MTR is not in Jayanagar. MTR is more
2:02:53near Basavanagudi, I think. Okay, fine.
2:02:55Yeah.
2:02:56>> [laughter]
2:02:56>> Jayanagar used to have
2:02:58>> Which ones do you think you might enjoy
2:02:59another?
2:03:01I would say
2:03:02>> a place called Dosa Camp. Yes, in fourth
2:03:05block.
2:03:05>> I remember the day it opened. They put
2:03:07everything in the dosa from mushrooms to
2:03:10baby corn to whatever you can think of.
2:03:12>> Yeah. Yeah. That ice cream place was
2:03:15presumably not there when you were
2:03:16growing up. The Corner House? Corner
2:03:17House. Oh, it was there? Oh, right.
2:03:18Yeah, we go there. Yes. I used to eat I
2:03:21kept going back. They had a thing called
2:03:22Death by Chocolate.
2:03:23>> Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They still have
2:03:25it. My kids had it two days ago. Yeah.
2:03:28Adigas was there back then? Adigas was
2:03:30there I can't remember where exactly it
2:03:32was.
2:03:34And then there was some I think the
2:03:35first time I came your dad thought I
2:03:37should have this Indo-Chinese food.
2:03:40Yeah, I mean that's all yeah.
2:03:42You guys live near that park, right?
2:03:44Near the ground. Yeah, not park, ground.
2:03:46Yeah, ground. I used to go there to play
2:03:48cricket.
2:03:48>> Yeah. Yeah.
2:03:50I I have
2:03:52played cricket there. Yeah.
2:03:53>> On my first trip. Less now,
2:03:56but I used to come.
2:03:58Can you get by in India without security
2:04:00and stuff like that? It you know, I it
2:04:03is the most
2:04:05incredible thing when I'm here because
2:04:09people are so kind, they are so
2:04:11welcoming, they're so supportive.
2:04:14Uh and it is a humbling every time. Um
2:04:18so I I do as best job I can as trying to
2:04:20talk to as many people as possible and
2:04:23and say thank you to them and chat with
2:04:24them. Um so it's a it's a wonderful and
2:04:27overwhelming experience every time.
2:04:29>> Well, you make us look very good, I
2:04:30hope. Like
2:04:31you keep winning and doing better in
2:04:33different things.
2:04:34>> is good. And then we we love I was going
2:04:37to say great work, good week at the
2:04:38summit.
2:04:39We have I probably now now that I'm a
2:04:41bit freer
2:04:43it's nice cuz we can be here more often.
2:04:45And we're I've been in India
2:04:47almost every few months for the past
2:04:50year or but you know, it's been really
2:04:51lovely. And we've been home. We've taken
2:04:54the kids on different places. They saw
2:04:55Taj Mahal last year for the first time.
2:04:58I've done lots of work things here. We
2:05:00And then we were And then the cricket,
2:05:01you know, I've
2:05:02I've seen
2:05:03I've been in Bombay for cricket with
2:05:05your dad. We went to the IPL final. So
2:05:08it's been great. We did Jaipur Literary
2:05:10Festival last year. So it's now we're
2:05:11getting a chance to
2:05:13enjoy a bit more of all these things.
2:05:15I'm going to ask you another selfish
2:05:16question.
2:05:17I think a big motive I have I'm using
2:05:21myself as a placeholder, but I think a
2:05:23lot more young people need to
2:05:25participate in politics.
2:05:27I think you're like testament to that.
2:05:29I think it's a great thing in society
2:05:31and more needs to happen.
2:05:34When you become a politician and you see
2:05:36these really big problems
2:05:39uh I'll I'll be a little specific
2:05:42to your to the to the to England and you
2:05:44know, that use case, but say fixing the
2:05:47NHS, reducing debt, reducing inflation.
2:05:51For somebody sitting on the outside
2:05:54a young guy who wants to be in politics
2:05:57when you go in and try to fix these
2:05:59problems
2:06:01how hard is it?
2:06:03Is it possible Is it Is it that one
2:06:06person can actually change stuff?
2:06:10I've I've lots of thoughts. So I think
2:06:12if you
2:06:13if you want to do it,
2:06:15you need to have resilience.
2:06:17You need to have patience and you need
2:06:20to be driven by service rather than
2:06:22ambition.
2:06:23You need resilience because it is
2:06:25unforgiving, right? It In this day and
2:06:27age with social media
2:06:29like you need to have thick skin. We've
2:06:31talked all about how, you know, you cope
2:06:33with failure, but just coping with the
2:06:34day-to-day criticism, you you have to be
2:06:37able to to deal with that.
2:06:39Um and and partly the best way to to
2:06:41deal with it, by the way, is is not to
2:06:43engage with a lot of it cuz we're all
2:06:44human, right? You can have the thickest
2:06:45skin in the world, we're all human.
2:06:47Um
2:06:48but you do need that resilience.
2:06:50You need patience cuz I'll come to this
2:06:52in a second, things take longer than
2:06:55you would think. Uh certainly longer
2:06:57than the private sector. Um and
2:07:00and look, all politicians, if we're
2:07:02being honest, are motivated by both
2:07:05ambition
2:07:06and duty or public service. I think
2:07:08every politician being honest, there's
2:07:10there's both, Personal ambition. I I
2:07:13think yeah yes, personal ambition,
2:07:14right? I think I think if they're being
2:07:16honest, I certainly am. Most politicians
2:07:17are they're motivated by both.
2:07:21You just need to know
2:07:23where you will sit on that scale.
2:07:26And if you are overly weighted towards
2:07:28personal ambition,
2:07:30I think you will not be successful.
2:07:31People will see through it and it won't
2:07:33you won't
2:07:35have that impact.
2:07:36>> You won't be able to do the things that
2:07:37are necessary to succeed. So I think
2:07:39those are the three preconditions for
2:07:42for getting involved. Then I'll
2:07:45I'll answer your answer your other
2:07:46question about
2:07:48you know, can young people do it or what
2:07:50how do they think about change? I
2:07:53you know, there's there's some things
2:07:54that I think some, not all, but some
2:07:56young people misunderstand
2:07:59about how to bring about change.
2:08:01And I think
2:08:02one is this is kind of almost cinematic
2:08:05notion that change happens in a moment.
2:08:08Yeah. It's a speech. You have to
2:08:10remember we have grown up on movies
2:08:12which one guy becomes the prime minister
2:08:15for a day and fixes the country. That's
2:08:17it.
2:08:18Great story.
2:08:19>> [laughter]
2:08:21>> And change is less about a moment and a
2:08:24move it's more about a movement, right?
2:08:26It it it takes time. Uh and the other
2:08:29thing is
2:08:31you know, voice matters, but
2:08:35change comes about through
2:08:36participation. And again, there's this
2:08:38romantic notion that change comes about
2:08:41because you're the outsider, the rebel,
2:08:44the disruptor.
2:08:45Actually, the change happens more
2:08:47because people become part of the
2:08:49process. They become part of the
2:08:51institutions. They change from the
2:08:54inside through a period of time and and
2:08:57hard work. And that's what I try and get
2:09:00across to young people is you know
2:09:02that's for the most part how substantive
2:09:04change happens. It happens when you
2:09:06decide to come inside and be part of the
2:09:08process and take the time to bring it
2:09:11about.
2:09:13The kind of romantic cinematic notion
2:09:15that it can happen from the outside
2:09:17being the disruptor with one speech or
2:09:19amazing protest you know that it works
2:09:21in the movies. I think it's less about
2:09:23real life which is why young people
2:09:25should
2:09:26if they do want to change things for the
2:09:27better do it through through government
2:09:30and come into public service and come in
2:09:33come into politics to to bring it about.
2:09:36>> and then do what? And then and then
2:09:38>> Convince other politicians? Sorry?
2:09:40Convince other politicians?
2:09:41>> I think let me give you
2:09:45an example I use
2:09:48because people say oh you can only have
2:09:49change if you become prime minister and
2:09:51not everyone gets to become prime
2:09:52minister and I say that's not true.
2:09:54And the example I give
2:09:56young people who are thinking about
2:09:57becoming an MP is of a
2:10:00guy called William Wilberforce. Mhm. And
2:10:02he was an MP in Yorkshire same as me and
2:10:05my predecessor as a member of parliament
2:10:08wrote a beautiful biography about him.
2:10:10Now William Wilberforce was
2:10:12someone who essentially abolished the
2:10:14slave trade Mhm. in the UK and then
2:10:17internationally and then helped abolish
2:10:19slavery.
2:10:20He was never a cabinet member let alone
2:10:23prime minister or chancellor. He made a
2:10:24decision to do it only as a backbencher
2:10:27MP because he believed that would give
2:10:29him the freedom and the moral authority
2:10:31and the time to focus on this one thing.
2:10:34He also had patience.
2:10:36From the first time he entered
2:10:37parliament and made a speech about it
2:10:40it took 20 years for him to get a bill
2:10:43[clears throat] passed in parliament to
2:10:44abolish the slave trade and then another
2:10:4720 odd years to have parliament declare
2:10:49that slavery itself was illegal. And
2:10:51then he died 3 days after that right so
2:10:54his career on this issue spanned 40
2:10:57years of which the big meaningful the
2:10:59first meaningful thing happened after
2:11:0120. And during that period he had all
2:11:03the things that we've been talking about
2:11:04he had to cope with failure. Parliament
2:11:06voted more than 10 times no no no
2:11:09[laughter] no no. Um But like we
2:11:12discussed earlier
2:11:14if everybody
2:11:16has to have the incentive of personal
2:11:19ambition being met how do I incentivize
2:11:22a young guy
2:11:23who will only find that personal
2:11:25ambition need being met if he sits in a
2:11:27position of power?
2:11:29If he sits in a position of power.
2:11:32Oh, well.
2:11:34Well, but then this goes back to what we
2:11:36were saying before there are lots of
2:11:37different ways to make a difference
2:11:39right in life. There are lots of
2:11:40different ways to have impact. But if
2:11:42you want to have impact on that scale
2:11:44the best way to do it is through
2:11:47government or or through the political
2:11:49process. And that's what I'm saying but
2:11:51even though you I'm saying you need to
2:11:53do it through that we don't need to but
2:11:55the best way to do it is through the
2:11:56political process it doesn't mean you
2:11:57have to be
2:11:59the prime minister Yeah. or in the
2:12:00cabinet. What I'd say is there are
2:12:02hundreds of members of parliament.
2:12:04Right? That is a different bar to
2:12:06becoming the prime minister but this
2:12:08individual William Wilberforce as one of
2:12:10600 odd member or however many it was in
2:12:13those days hundreds of members of
2:12:14parliament was able to bring about this
2:12:17very significant change and and he
2:12:19didn't do it on his own either. He would
2:12:20touches on what we were saying before.
2:12:22He built a movement around him other
2:12:24people played their part and now he was
2:12:26the the the person at the front. Um but
2:12:29I think it's a really instructive story
2:12:31for young people to read and I was
2:12:33inspired by it because I didn't know I
2:12:34was going to end up in cabinet or being
2:12:36prime minister but it was you know as
2:12:38long as as well as what actually this
2:12:39dad said to me it was a great story of
2:12:42how one person can you say can one
2:12:43person do that? It takes more than one
2:12:45person of course there's a team but it
2:12:47you know this was one person who made it
2:12:48his mission to do it. And it goes back
2:12:50to what you said earlier Nikhil about
2:12:53different motivations being
2:12:54complimentary and actually I was talking
2:12:55about this and I
2:12:57he had a moral view that slavery was
2:13:00wrong.
2:13:01And that's what motivated him and he was
2:13:03a person of faith and
2:13:06but he was smart. Mhm. Right? And he
2:13:09recognized that wasn't the best way to
2:13:11persuade everyone.
2:13:13And actually he came up with an economic
2:13:16case
2:13:17as to why slavery was wrong and he came
2:13:19up with a patriotic security case why
2:13:21the slave trade was wrong because
2:13:22Britain was in a war with France and he
2:13:24was saying well people are giving slaves
2:13:26to French they'll be able to
2:13:28come and beat Britain so we should ban
2:13:30the trade and he was clever that way
2:13:31right? So for him it was a moral mission
2:13:34but ultimately he knew some people would
2:13:35be motivated by different things so he
2:13:37was able to bring all of that to bear.
2:13:39Um
2:13:40and ultimately as I said have the
2:13:41patience have the resilience the
2:13:44storytelling that we talked about
2:13:47but based actually oddly as well he was
2:13:49great
2:13:51orator
2:13:52uh
2:13:52you know you and I talking about
2:13:53learning from that but there was another
2:13:55guy called Thomas Clarkson who did all
2:13:57the hard work of documenting Mhm. what
2:14:00was happening
2:14:02in these
2:14:03camps in the slave plantations on the
2:14:05boats where people were being traded all
2:14:06of which was awful and just
2:14:07painstakingly documented all this detail
2:14:10and hard work which ultimately then
2:14:12became part of these these stories. So I
2:14:14think it's a really powerful way to
2:14:16illustrate how change comes about how
2:14:18politics is the best way parliamentary
2:14:21processes are the best way to bring
2:14:22about massive change but also
2:14:24illustrating that you don't need to be
2:14:25the prime minister or in the cabinet to
2:14:27to do it. But
2:14:29totally agree but I think maybe Nikhil
2:14:32what you're getting at is
2:14:36what kind of people should go into
2:14:37politics?
2:14:38>> Yeah. Who who should get into politics?
2:14:40>> No, I'm thinking for our audience like
2:14:41the people we are speaking to are young
2:14:44Indian wannabe entrepreneurs. If I have
2:14:47to convince one of them to become a
2:14:49politician
2:14:51I need the I need to meet their need for
2:14:53validation and their personal ambition
2:14:56need both. I'm trying to put something
2:14:58in each box. In the validation and
2:14:59ambition box. But I
2:15:03So first of all I don't think they need
2:15:04to give up being an entrepreneur. Mhm.
2:15:06Right? What we talked about before I
2:15:08think people are
2:15:11more effective
2:15:14as politicians or in government having
2:15:16brought that experience into parliament
2:15:19>> Mhm.
2:15:20with them or into government with them.
2:15:22So for the people listening you know I I
2:15:24would say
2:15:26go build your business.
2:15:29You you're going to learn an
2:15:30extraordinary amount doing
2:15:31>> thinking how to trigger them to enter
2:15:33politics today.
2:15:35After they build the business or right
2:15:36now? Right now.
2:15:39Well
2:15:41do they need to? Yeah.
2:15:43>> Why do they need to do it today?
2:15:45I this is the thing. I mean
2:15:47sure some people might want to. I'm my
2:15:49personal bias is for people to do
2:15:52something else first. Yeah. And I don't
2:15:54think and this goes back to what we were
2:15:55saying before there's you know rush rush
2:15:57rush. Yeah.
2:15:59Build your business. Why? Because it
2:16:01will give you that validation that you
2:16:02want. And skills and
2:16:04>> And set of practical skills and
2:16:06financial security and independence and
2:16:09my word what an incredible platform that
2:16:11is
2:16:12to then
2:16:14enter politics where you have so much
2:16:16more
2:16:18understanding and self-awareness of who
2:16:20you are. Mhm. You've already got that
2:16:22validation which means you will enter
2:16:24the political arena with so much more
2:16:26personal self-confidence. Mhm. The
2:16:28resilience of having had the ups and
2:16:29downs of building a business and doing
2:16:31something and then using that experience
2:16:33to benefit the country. But that that
2:16:34motivation has to be one where you are
2:16:37getting into it because you want to make
2:16:40your country a better place.
2:16:42>> Yeah. But that has to be at the core of
2:16:44it right? And you that's okay to be
2:16:46ambitious about it. That is true for
2:16:47many many young people I know.
2:16:48>> Yeah.
2:16:49But what I'm trying to also see is for a
2:16:51country where the average age is 28.
2:16:54>> Yes. We need more people who are 28 in
2:16:56parliament.
2:16:58I look I I can see I look I can see
2:17:00that. I can see that overall I can my
2:17:03point about as an individual I think
2:17:05you're better off But but having the
2:17:08experience. I can see if everyone does
2:17:10that and then nobody is in parliament
2:17:11young age. I can I can see that. But
2:17:14maybe Rishi it it comes back to that
2:17:16passion thing
2:17:17which you were saying so eloquently
2:17:19about William Wilberforce right?
2:17:22So I don't know the history so pardon me
2:17:24but he He entered He entered parliament
2:17:26at 28. Right. So he
2:17:29Thank you. Thank you Rishi.
2:17:31He
2:17:32had this deep-seated
2:17:36passion for abolishing slavery. That
2:17:39mattered more to him than anything else.
2:17:42And in a country
2:17:44as large as India where you said the
2:17:46average
2:17:48age 28
2:17:50I am sure there are young people
2:17:53or 28-year-olds
2:17:56who there are at least some 28-year-olds
2:17:59who will have these moral missions.
2:18:03They will be. Yeah. But they don't need
2:18:05to this again what we were saying
2:18:07before.
2:18:07>> Yeah. They don't need to just have some
2:18:10moral or social mission. It's a great
2:18:12mission if someone is listening to you
2:18:16but cares passionately about
2:18:17entrepreneurship.
2:18:19Right? Then
2:18:21you know that's not a social necessarily
2:18:23a kind of social outcome but
2:18:27it going into parliament
2:18:29to make sure that India is a fantastic
2:18:32country for entrepreneurs
2:18:34>> [clears throat]
2:18:34>> to encourage all the people listening to
2:18:36you to grow their businesses
2:18:39But but [clears throat] they're
2:18:40passionate about entrepreneurship and
2:18:42and they recognize that entrepreneurship
2:18:43is important to India succeeding
2:18:46go into parliament and be the champion
2:18:48for that. Right? Be the a for small
2:18:50business for example.
2:18:51>> know,
2:18:51>> does it mean to make India the I mean
2:18:54India is already very vibrant
2:18:55entrepreneurial ecosystem, but we can
2:18:57all get better. But that can be your
2:18:58passion. It doesn't have to be I it's
2:19:00fine. There will be some people who have
2:19:01a more social classic No, no, I agree. I
2:19:04mean we are also leaning into who we
2:19:06are, right? Like cuz you're you're
2:19:08[laughter]
2:19:08I'm I'm being think you know, for lots
2:19:09of people who are entrepreneurial minded
2:19:12or technology minded, those things can
2:19:14be put to incredible positive good for
2:19:16India. So you can be excited and
2:19:19passionate about those areas and think
2:19:21actually well, I'm going to use politics
2:19:22as the vehicle to make sure
2:19:25India
2:19:27and Indians prosper when it comes to
2:19:30technology, when it comes to
2:19:31entrepreneurship, right? That can be
2:19:32your mission and passion to do.
2:19:34>> comes
2:19:36from
2:19:37I mean you'll speak better than me, but
2:19:38you know, if you can get some kind of
2:19:40law passed, right? That makes it easier
2:19:43for small businesses to be incorporated.
2:19:45That makes it easier for us
2:19:47for
2:19:49not to get into controversial topics,
2:19:50but social media to be regulated.
2:19:52Whatever it is, right?
2:19:53>> When you do one thing, when you
2:19:54contribute to changing one clause and
2:19:56one law that's passing parliament that
2:19:58will unlock something special for
2:19:59entrepreneurs or technologists, for the
2:20:01rest of your life you will have done
2:20:03that for 1.4 billion people, right?
2:20:05>> [laughter]
2:20:05>> It's a it's a pretty big I mean you talk
2:20:08about validate where people want
2:20:09validation. I you know, sure, it's great
2:20:12to have a company and a unicorn IPO.
2:20:15That is great.
2:20:17Changing a law that is going to impact
2:20:191.4 billion people and how your country
2:20:21progresses. You think about the
2:20:22compounding benefit of that? Like that
2:20:24is you know, sure it doesn't all that
2:20:25value doesn't accrue to you personally.
2:20:27The monetary value doesn't. But the
2:20:30right, that's where you have to be
2:20:31motivated the societal value
2:20:34is not in the unicorn billionaire
2:20:36hundred million here. It's in the
2:20:39hundreds and hundreds of billions. Um
2:20:41please all the all the
2:20:42millions and millions. So I I
2:20:45you know, I'm excited to be 28 and going
2:20:46to politics now. [laughter]
2:20:48There are some, you know,
2:20:50You know the guy in our constituency
2:20:53South Bangalore is quite young. Who is
2:20:55he? Yes, his name is
2:20:56>> Tejasvi. Tejasvi, yes. Friend of mine,
2:20:58he's a young chap. The the other the
2:21:01other reason that people should think
2:21:02about it is
2:21:07not withstanding everything I said
2:21:08before about experience and everything
2:21:09else.
2:21:11It's it's differentiating, right? If you
2:21:13are one of very few young people,
2:21:16you are
2:21:18differentiated in part. Public adoration
2:21:19is a
2:21:21big point of validation.
2:21:23Which does come with being a politician.
2:21:25But but can I I think that I say that
2:21:26that is a
2:21:27It's different in different countries.
2:21:29>> That's a tricky path. Yeah, that is in
2:21:30different countries. May maybe more so
2:21:32here. Um thank you. You're welcome. Uh
2:21:37You know, cuz in in lots of places in
2:21:39the west it's quite unforgiving.
2:21:41All right. The day-to-day experience of
2:21:44most
2:21:45politicians is hard, right? Because of
2:21:46things like social media and the
2:21:48criticism and
2:21:50things like that. It's very it can be
2:21:51very rewarding and fulfilling, of course
2:21:52it can be. But for you know,
2:21:55it's not every day is
2:21:57you know, like a
2:21:59all sunshine and rainbows. Um
2:22:01it comes back to what I wrote about in
2:22:03my Stanford Business School essay. And
2:22:05in fact, I did write about this is the
2:22:07solution is education.
2:22:09So here's what I mean.
2:22:15You know, when
2:22:17you think of a society and how it
2:22:18progresses, there there
2:22:21many different ways, but you want to
2:22:23make sure that you
2:22:25the society that you live in
2:22:27the
2:22:28the government of the land of the nation
2:22:31provides
2:22:33sufficient
2:22:35security so that the basic needs are
2:22:37met, right? Now, I know
2:22:41that that isn't always easy, but that's
2:22:43sort of the focus.
2:22:45And then you think well, okay, then how
2:22:46can we progress as a society?
2:22:49And to me the answer is education
2:22:51because education in my mind is one of
2:22:54the things that allows
2:22:57equality of opportunity to emerge.
2:23:00Um In a way has that been solved for
2:23:02because education has gotten
2:23:04democratized with internet and AI and
2:23:06all of that. Like I never went to
2:23:07college.
2:23:08>> Yeah. I can choose to pick a book I like
2:23:10to read and read it. Yeah, but that's
2:23:12because you're fundamentally curious.
2:23:15Mhm. So I define education more broadly,
2:23:18right?
2:23:18>> but because Paul's right. And I was
2:23:20talking about it
2:23:21the summit.
2:23:23It's one of the to me
2:23:25one of the incredible things that AI can
2:23:27do.
2:23:28It isn't just about raising the ceiling.
2:23:30It can lift the floor for humanity. And
2:23:33the most obvious ways it can do that are
2:23:35democratizing access to health care and
2:23:37education.
2:23:38All right. Where you've got
2:23:40now it is possible that
2:23:43before too long every single child
2:23:47will be able to have the best possible
2:23:49teacher
2:23:50>> That's the job of
2:23:52philanthropy
2:23:53of government
2:23:55of
2:23:57of uh
2:23:58organi- different organizations
2:24:01to to enable those outcomes, right? So
2:24:04yes, any child
2:24:07who lives in a certain society should
2:24:09have access to
2:24:10what I think is a broad sense of
2:24:13education. Of course, that's letters and
2:24:14numbers, but it's also curiosity. It's
2:24:16problem thinking skills. Because when
2:24:19you are when you have that in your
2:24:21toolkit,
2:24:24that's when you you you
2:24:27you create entrepreneurs. You create
2:24:30um innovation. You create uh wealth in
2:24:34so many different ways. And and then
2:24:37the tax is kind of the next step, but I
2:24:40think how do we first create that
2:24:41equality of opportunity so that more
2:24:43people are able to create that wealth in
2:24:45the first place. But even with education
2:24:49barring the risk capital, if
2:24:52asset prices continue to inflate at the
2:24:54pace that they are, it'll be very hard
2:24:56for the inequality to come down. I met
2:24:58this interesting guy, Michael Milken.
2:25:01He spent a lot of money and time coming
2:25:02up with this plan where he wants to give
2:25:05every child who's born a certain amount
2:25:08of
2:25:08>> Exactly. So that's what I was just going
2:25:09to say. equity in the beginning. Troy I
2:25:11mean like this is your whole life,
2:25:13right? Um
2:25:15But trying to give more people
2:25:18a stake
2:25:20in the system, a financial stake is a
2:25:22good thing. I think even the US is
2:25:23considering this.
2:25:24>> The US is going down this road.
2:25:25>> doing something around that? Uh Michael
2:25:27Dell has helped part fund some of it.
2:25:29Bec- And it's partly what some of the
2:25:30work that motivates our charity in the
2:25:32UK that we've set up, the Richmond
2:25:34project, which is around numeracy. It's
2:25:35cuz if
2:25:37if people have better, stronger number
2:25:39skills,
2:25:41then they can be more financially
2:25:42literate. And
2:25:44which is the research from Stanford
2:25:45actually tells us
2:25:47some of these foundational skills you
2:25:49need to understand are inflation and
2:25:51compounding.
2:25:52They are two fundamental things that
2:25:54lots of people do not understand. And if
2:25:57they don't, that inequality will widen.
2:25:58Cuz if you understand those things,
2:26:00you're smarter about
2:26:01>> then you you recognize that inflation
2:26:03erodes the purchasing power. And comp-
2:26:05If you understand the power of compound
2:26:07interest or compounding in general,
2:26:10right? And you understand that when
2:26:11you're young,
2:26:12right? Those two things. And of course,
2:26:14to Dr. Paul's point, you need to have
2:26:16had a good education to have a decent
2:26:18job, but you need to then think with
2:26:20your I need to save, right? There is an
2:26:23element of saving. This is how I should
2:26:24save. This is why I need to save. That
2:26:26compounds over time. Like that's what we
2:26:28need to do more of. Other than otherwise
2:26:30that gap will keep growing. Maybe I
2:26:32should take education back and say
2:26:33learning.
2:26:35Being curious. Being
2:26:37How do you teach someone to be curious
2:26:38though? Yeah.
2:26:40That's I mean I have to think about
2:26:41that.
2:26:43We uh
2:26:44Yeah. Milken Michael Milken had this
2:26:46interesting thought that if you start
2:26:48somebody off with say I don't know, a
2:26:50thousand dollars in a S&P index fund
2:26:52like an ETF,
2:26:54psychologically
2:26:56them knowing that they have something
2:26:58something to lose
2:27:00psychologically changes behavior
2:27:02significantly more than the cost of the
2:27:05thousand dollars.
2:27:07I I I I think there's probably something
2:27:08to that. And that's our way of
2:27:10contributing to that is is through
2:27:13giving people the
2:27:14the financial literacy the confidence
2:27:16they need with
2:27:17our literacy with numbers.
2:27:18>> numbers and therefore financial literacy
2:27:20so they know what to do with it, right?
2:27:22And and even if not everyone is going to
2:27:23be able to be given the thousand
2:27:24dollars, right? So either you need the
2:27:25people who are able to save to recognize
2:27:28they should save, how to save, that it's
2:27:30worth their while saving. Um so I I'm uh
2:27:34I'm a I'm a big believer in that. I your
2:27:36point is interesting on curiosity cuz we
2:27:38um
2:27:39we talk about that uh
2:27:41a lot. Um
2:27:43and I I actually think
2:27:47they're slightly different things.
2:27:49Because actually there's very big on
2:27:51just being curious for the sake of being
2:27:52curious and trying to instill that in
2:27:54the kids.
2:27:54>> Learning for the sake of
2:27:55>> learning. I'm I'm a little bit more
2:27:58learn for a purpose, a bit practical
2:28:00applied, but I
2:28:02I've come to realize that
2:28:05I think one of the
2:28:08you know, one of the most
2:28:10kind of compounding
2:28:12skills that you can develop is exactly
2:28:16this. It's I do we call it learnability,
2:28:18which is a little bit different from
2:28:19your curiosity, but they're linked. And
2:28:21and I just think about my own career,
2:28:23you know, it's diverse finance,
2:28:25government, technology policy. Like the
2:28:28the the compounding skill
2:28:30is being able to learn new things. And I
2:28:32think that is only going to be more
2:28:34relevant in this new world. So if I like
2:28:35when I talk to young people now and I
2:28:37say like just
2:28:39learn how to learn.
2:28:41That [laughter] that
2:28:41>> to me is education, you know? So it's
2:28:43not about a degree. It's not
2:28:44>> about a fixed exactly. It's not about a
2:28:46fixed point thing. Maybe the solution
2:28:48lies in what you said earlier. You
2:28:50brought up Greek philosophy. Yeah.
2:28:53Maybe AI will solve this problem as well
2:28:55because in times of abundance, we go
2:28:58back to like the Greeks did in their
2:29:00time philosophy and anthropology.
2:29:02It was an entire profession to sit and
2:29:04think about life. And that's to me is
2:29:07what makes us more human. Yeah. Maybe AI
2:29:10and productivity gains and abundance
2:29:12will get us to that point where
2:29:13everybody has more than enough. Yeah. So
2:29:16then we can sit and think about that.
2:29:17Yeah. Yeah.
2:29:19It's what was said in that
2:29:22when you and Elon had that conversation.
2:29:25Yeah. It's a very utopian way of
2:29:27It's a very utopian way of the world.
2:29:29And [clears throat] and until we get to
2:29:30that point Sure. I I think people's
2:29:33careers will keep changing. So this
2:29:35ability to
2:29:37keep learning new things I think is a
2:29:40underestimated very powerful
2:29:43quality to have. How do you see AI in
2:29:46your lives? What do you use it for? Oh.
2:29:49Like the biggest use case.
2:29:52Biggest use case I mean for me is
2:29:55research, right?
2:29:56Thinking about
2:29:58research and things.
2:29:59>> likely Claude cuz you're consulting with
2:30:01that thing. So I
2:30:03the Claude is what I use the most
2:30:05and Have you given Claude all the
2:30:08connectors access and allowed it to
2:30:10>> to do that now. So I'm start I haven't
2:30:12yet. I've got this course that I'm about
2:30:14to do uh to
2:30:16start using it for I want to start using
2:30:19it with Excel. I've given it a lot of
2:30:20access and now I'm worried cuz I don't
2:30:22even go to my email inbox anymore cuz
2:30:24I've given it access to my all my emails
2:30:27and chat and all of that. So I ask it
2:30:30are there any important emails that I
2:30:32missed today? And it saves me the time
2:30:34to scroll through it.
2:30:35>> through it. Yeah. That's scary.
2:30:37It knows every word of every email.
2:30:40So what I'm I'm about we're just
2:30:42developing in the office is we to so it
2:30:43has access to well actually and and
2:30:46co-pilot. So we've just got co-pilot as
2:30:48well. So
2:30:50cuz I want co-pilot to be able to you
2:30:52know share in our office SharePoint uh
2:30:55OneDrive what yeah OneDrive um
2:30:58to be able to cuz it needs to know what
2:31:01we've done and what we've got so that it
2:31:03can build on it, right? So that that for
2:31:06us is quite important. So just getting
2:31:07that co-pilot integration where it can
2:31:09go into the folder and I can say like
2:31:11here all these things do X.
2:31:14Um that that is what we're doing next.
2:31:16I've never learned how to code. So on my
2:31:19But now you don't need to. No, what I
2:31:20now is what I need to learn how to vibe
2:31:22code, right? So I've got a video course
2:31:25that I'm about to start. Can I tell you
2:31:27from somebody who went through it
2:31:28recently? I don't know anything about
2:31:30coding or programming.
2:31:32I hired this guy recently who spends an
2:31:35hour or two with me every day. Yeah.
2:31:38And we were having these conversations
2:31:40and we started with Claude bot. Yeah. Uh
2:31:44So this is a little bit
2:31:45uh now it's called open Claude but
2:31:49This is a little I don't know scary
2:31:51because you kind of like host it on a
2:31:53tiny On this Mac Mini, right?
2:31:55>> Yeah. And you give it access to
2:31:56everything. Yeah, that. But the thing I
2:31:58realized about prompting
2:32:02is even on even when you use Claude code
2:32:04for the first time
2:32:06like how specific you are while you
2:32:09prompt is a skill set in itself which I
2:32:12don't have.
2:32:13So somebody said it really well. I was
2:32:15watching the interview of the guy who
2:32:18built Claude bot or open Claude now.
2:32:21He said it's like playing the piano. You
2:32:22can't expect somebody to sit in front of
2:32:24the piano and prompt for the very first
2:32:27time
2:32:27or give up when you try to play for the
2:32:29very first time and not try again.
2:32:32You need like a few lessons.
2:32:34>> Yeah.
2:32:34But it's not too many. I've done like
2:32:36maybe a month of lessons. That's about
2:32:38it.
2:32:41It feels like there is that point where
2:32:44you cross that line where you start to
2:32:46feel more comfortable with it, but I
2:32:48don't think it's week one. I think it's
2:32:50week three.
2:32:50>> Yeah. No, I think it would take some
2:32:52time. It'll go to week one soon. Yeah.
2:32:54Well, that would be good. But I that to
2:32:56me seems
2:32:58like an important new skill to develop.
2:33:00Yeah. Right? Now it is perfectly
2:33:03plausible that I should be able to
2:33:04create software that will do certain
2:33:07so many things that I do
2:33:09and I'm starting to figure out but I
2:33:10need someone to help me understand how
2:33:13do I think about all the things I do,
2:33:15which ones will lend themselves to being
2:33:17Yeah.
2:33:18basically dealt with and then learn how
2:33:20to get build the thing to do it.
2:33:23So that is my next thing to do. But the
2:33:26thing I should
2:33:27I mean you you do your thing as well but
2:33:29I I I'm we go back to education.
2:33:33That is the thing that I find it
2:33:34incredibly helpful.
2:33:36>> Transformative. It's transformative to
2:33:38be able to teach our kids. I'm not a
2:33:40good She's an excellent teacher.
2:33:43I'm not a good teacher. It's one
2:33:45one thing to know something. It's a
2:33:47different thing to be able to explain it
2:33:48and teach others.
2:33:50And but this is what I always thought
2:33:52with schooling and college. I didn't go.
2:33:54So I I mean it's natural that I take
2:33:56this perspective.
2:33:58But when you don't go to a formal
2:34:00institution, you can pick what books you
2:34:02want to read. Yeah.
2:34:04Yeah. Like structure takes that away and
2:34:07I feel like
2:34:09in many ways it's a disadvantage.
2:34:12Which is which is a disadvantage?
2:34:13>> Like going to a structured institution
2:34:15and being told what to read and how to
2:34:16read.
2:34:17>> depends on the personality I think a
2:34:19little bit but it's but now I think
2:34:21we're getting How self-motivated
2:34:23>> Not I wasn't even talking about
2:34:24motivation as much as like even between
2:34:26us you like more structure I like less
2:34:28structure.
2:34:28>> Yeah. Yeah, you respond better to
2:34:30>> So so I respond better
2:34:32when I don't have as many guardrails,
2:34:35right? But if the entire education
2:34:37system is evolving to be a place where
2:34:40you come in, you interact with peers but
2:34:43actually it's self-directed learning
2:34:45guided by AI.
2:34:47Yeah.
2:34:49Then
2:34:50there's a different way to learn and and
2:34:52it probably
2:34:54would have suited you and me better that
2:34:56way.
2:34:57But helping our kids with learning is as
2:34:59I feel like I
2:35:01that's what I did the other week and
2:35:03when you were away and and Oh yes. Yeah.
2:35:06And I but I've done that increasingly
2:35:07where
2:35:08I I haven't either got they had physics
2:35:11I don't have physics test couple of
2:35:12weeks ago. I haven't done any physics
2:35:14since I was 16
2:35:16and I I didn't know off top of my head
2:35:19what she was doing but I popped the
2:35:21paper into Claude. It comes back with a
2:35:24question-by-question
2:35:25explanatory guide so I can then help her
2:35:31and then created a revision booklet at
2:35:33the end that I could then use the next
2:35:35day to help her prep for the test.
2:35:37I if that wasn't there, it would have
2:35:39been a right pain to
2:35:41try and do. So I and I saw that and then
2:35:43I see them in
2:35:45we see our kids we've encouraged them to
2:35:47use it but we've tried to say to them
2:35:49and supervise it. We say look it's not
2:35:51it's going to help you think. It can't
2:35:53do the thinking for you. It can explain
2:35:55things to you so you learn but you need
2:35:59to have done the thinking. Like so
2:36:02especially when they're young So like
2:36:03one discipline I have is I never use AI
2:36:06to write. Yeah. No.
2:36:08And it's old-fashioned. I get it. Pen
2:36:10and paper? No, meaning Type. I type.
2:36:13Yeah. Yeah. But I just I just can't do
2:36:15that. I just can't do it. And what do
2:36:17you write about now?
2:36:18Whatever I'm writing about, you know, I
2:36:21currently I'm involved in
2:36:24um
2:36:26arts and culture and doing some
2:36:28storytelling around
2:36:30uh um cultural institutions in the UK.
2:36:34I'm
2:36:36doing some work around
2:36:38um
2:36:40fashion entrepreneurship
2:36:42and business
2:36:44um
2:36:45I use
2:36:46I use Google for research. Yeah. But
2:36:48I'll tell you where I use I'm starting
2:36:50to think with AI. But I don't use Claude
2:36:52or anyone else to help me write though,
2:36:55right? Like the thesis of any argument I
2:36:57write myself.
2:36:59Um even the speeches etc. I write them
2:37:01all out. Um but what I've been
2:37:04fascinated is
2:37:10again as someone who's on the outside
2:37:11can AI be creative?
2:37:14And what then is even creativity, right?
2:37:17Uh for a long time in the early days of
2:37:19this whole
2:37:21evolution of AI
2:37:23uh people would say well AI
2:37:25can
2:37:26code faster than you solve mathematical
2:37:29problems etc. but it can't be creative.
2:37:33And so I'm I've been amazed how I can
2:37:37have
2:37:39philosophical discussions
2:37:43with Claude
2:37:45and it will come up with the most
2:37:47creative thoughtful answers. I mean
2:37:51amazing. What is creative in your view?
2:37:53Is it contrarian behavior that's
2:37:55creative? No, putting multiple thoughts
2:37:57together, right?
2:37:59Putting not just giving me a
2:38:01list of facts or kind of obvious
2:38:05answers.
2:38:06But pulling connecting the dots. Right.
2:38:09Pulling
2:38:11not facts but also
2:38:14even emotion.
2:38:17I would in a way in the new world
2:38:20define creativity by contrarian behavior
2:38:24more so than yesterday because
2:38:26a lot of these models are
2:38:29trained on data which
2:38:32always projects a certain path.
2:38:34Mm. Yes, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
2:38:37Yeah. Mm.
2:38:40Cuz they're trained on a stock of
2:38:42>> Yeah. knowledge and information. Yeah.
2:38:44So, yeah, this is the I guess the how
2:38:46will they be able to come up with
2:38:47something new? Yeah.
2:38:48You used to manage money before
2:38:50politics.
2:38:51>> Yes. Yeah. I used to be an investor.
2:38:53As a fund manager,
2:38:56I'm I'm guessing you researched a whole
2:38:58bunch of industries and stocks.
2:39:00>> Yeah.
2:39:01After becoming a politician,
2:39:04did you realize there's a information
2:39:06arbitrage that is still at play that
2:39:08makes one fund manager better than
2:39:10another?
2:39:12What did you believe as a fund manager
2:39:13that you became a politician and got
2:39:16access to everything and you were like,
2:39:17"This is stupid."
2:39:18Uh
2:39:19I You know, I didn't um
2:39:24I didn't ever think about it like that.
2:39:27The similarity I found between politics
2:39:29and fund management was
2:39:31this concept of the noise of the market.
2:39:33So, the investing I did was always
2:39:35fundamental long-term investing like
2:39:37Warren Buffett.
2:39:40And he has this a whole mantra about
2:39:43ignoring the short-term noise of the
2:39:45market and quarterly earnings and stuff
2:39:46like that.
2:39:47>> very well in the last
2:39:49decade, I would like to say.
2:39:51I haven't seen the numbers for a while,
2:39:52but over his career it's a pretty
2:39:54incredible track record.
2:39:55>> he did well when information arbitrage
2:39:58was more at play when I I saw that
2:40:01article. I saw someone had done that
2:40:02analysis. I haven't gone into it in
2:40:04detail. I mean, I always found him his
2:40:06letters, his approach to investing I'm a
2:40:08total devotee of the cycle of I've been
2:40:10to um
2:40:12you know, Omaha for the
2:40:14for the shareholder meeting etc. and um
2:40:20Uh
2:40:20so, I
2:40:23But the similarity was there is that you
2:40:24have the politics has got lots of the
2:40:25day-to-day noise,
2:40:27media, social media, this, that, and the
2:40:30other. And I always tried to helpful
2:40:32reminder from your investing days to
2:40:33focus on the long-term fundamentals of
2:40:36what of what you're doing. I found that
2:40:37quite a helpful analogy. On the
2:40:39information arbitrage, I didn't I you
2:40:41know, I don't know if that's
2:40:44You know, I didn't necessarily see that.
2:40:46I mean, I you know,
2:40:47it wasn't as if Clearly, if you're
2:40:50involved in making decisions in
2:40:52government, you have access to
2:40:53information, which is why you
2:40:56clearly
2:40:57should not be trading, right? I mean,
2:40:59that that should be illegal and is
2:41:01illegal.
2:41:02Um
2:41:03But beyond beyond that, I'm not sure.
2:41:05I saw because largely what's happening
2:41:07in the political process is
2:41:10>> [snorts]
2:41:10>> it's commented on, it's in the news,
2:41:12there's a million people talking about
2:41:14it. So, it's perfectly possible for
2:41:18people to
2:41:19figure out the dynamics of a policy as
2:41:22it's going through Parliament or
2:41:23something like that.
2:41:26That that was my general sense of it.
2:41:28Um but it it
2:41:30the other thing um
2:41:33from uh
2:41:35I
2:41:36the investing side of it is I mean, this
2:41:38thing about long run and short run.
2:41:41And I thought that was
2:41:43because it you know, you're trying cuz I
2:41:45what gave us or my I hope my type of
2:41:47investing an advantage was that focus on
2:41:49the long term, right? So, you could and
2:41:51if you had capital that allowed you to
2:41:52take a long-term view,
2:41:54you you know, you could ignore the
2:41:56short-term volatility of things
2:41:59confident that over time the
2:42:00fundamentals and the valuation would
2:42:02would align.
2:42:04I That was interesting cuz it it
2:42:07You saw what happened in the financial
2:42:08crisis and it I I I look at it and
2:42:10obviously you try and do the right thing
2:42:12in the long term, but really the short
2:42:13term
2:42:14Someone put it to me well. They said
2:42:15that you know, the long term is really
2:42:17just a succession of short terms that
2:42:19you either survived or were not kicked
2:42:22out of.
2:42:24Um And and actually I realized over time
2:42:26there isn't at least in politics, maybe
2:42:28it's more broadly in business, there's
2:42:30there's less of a kind of conflict
2:42:32between the short term and the long
2:42:33term. They're really just They all fit
2:42:36into a what kind of a nested time frame.
2:42:39And I think as long as your short-term
2:42:40actions
2:42:41need to be consistent with your
2:42:43long-term direction is is what you want.
2:42:46It's not that that you can't do things
2:42:47in the short term.
2:42:49It's just that your you know, your
2:42:50weekly rhythm has to align with your
2:42:52one-year plan, which aligns with your
2:42:54three-year strategy, with your five-year
2:42:56vision. Those things have to be
2:42:58consistent
2:42:59and have a consistency in and a
2:43:01connection to them. The problem is when
2:43:03you have this tension between short term
2:43:04and long term is when the the short-term
2:43:07goal or short-term thing you're doing is
2:43:08is misaligned with the long-term
2:43:10direction, but it's wrong to ignore the
2:43:12short term. And I the other analogy is
2:43:16You need to do the minimum to survive in
2:43:18the short term so that you can be around
2:43:20to benefit in the long term. So, in the
2:43:22financial sense, if you don't have the
2:43:24liquidity in the short term, then you
2:43:26might be right in the long term, but
2:43:28you'll be out of business, right? And
2:43:30so, you it's a in that financial sense,
2:43:32right? If you're leveraged or you don't
2:43:34have capital that is secure. And in
2:43:36politics,
2:43:37you you need to you know, I said you
2:43:39need to do enough in the short term
2:43:42to earn the right to be there over time.
2:43:45So, you can't just kind of head in the
2:43:47sand say, "Look, this will work out in 5
2:43:49years. Come and see me then."
2:43:51You you need to be delivering enough
2:43:53things in the short term that are
2:43:54consistent with the long-run goal to
2:43:57kind of allow you to survive to make
2:43:58that long-run argument. So, I think in
2:44:00both cases,
2:44:02you have to recognize the the kind of
2:44:04connection between the short term and
2:44:05the long term. You can't exclude the
2:44:07short term and and just say I'm focused
2:44:09on the long term.
2:44:09>> You like chocolate? Yes. Okay.
2:44:12>> [laughter]
2:44:12>> I mean,
2:44:13I told you you can always count on Rishi
2:44:16to eat.
2:44:17I'm very full, but I will always make a
2:44:19bit of space for some chocolate.
2:44:22Will you ask Hariom chocolate for him?
2:44:25Okay, last part of today. I'm going to
2:44:27ask you both one question to finish it
2:44:29off. I don't know what the time is. What
2:44:31is the time?
2:44:33How are we doing?
2:44:34Oh gosh, 10:00. Oh wow.
2:44:36>> well.
2:44:38>> [laughter]
2:44:38>> It's been a few hours.
2:44:39>> Yes.
2:44:43Okay. Last part of today, one question
2:44:45to both of you. To Rishi,
2:44:48if you had to
2:44:50today after knowing
2:44:53Okay, let me preface this question by
2:44:54saying we spoke about you coming into
2:44:57the position of Prime Minister.
2:44:59How was it to lose that position?
2:45:02What did you learn from it? Same
2:45:04question for both or not? Yeah, okay.
2:45:07What's your question for her?
2:45:10>> [laughter]
2:45:13>> Okay, let me do Akshata first and we'll
2:45:15come back to Yeah, no. Yeah, yeah, fine.
2:45:17Okay.
2:45:19Somebody said in the end, civilizations
2:45:22perish
2:45:24because they listened
2:45:26to the politicians
2:45:28a lot more than they listened to their
2:45:29poets.
2:45:31Okay. Shall I go? You have time.
2:45:33>> [laughter]
2:45:34>> So, are you saying do I agree or
2:45:35disagree with this?
2:45:37Shall I Do you want me to go? I I don't
2:45:39I don't mind. Go. Go. Go.
2:45:44So, we've talked about failure a couple
2:45:47of times through this.
2:45:50You know, if
2:45:51failure in that way
2:45:54is very hard. Yeah. Right? When you lose
2:45:58an election,
2:46:00I mean, it's I I you know, it's hard
2:46:03because it is public. I mean, it's
2:46:05extremely public.
2:46:08It comes at the end of a very grueling,
2:46:10intense period of a campaign, which is
2:46:14pretty unforgiving.
2:46:16And
2:46:18because it's public, you're failing in
2:46:19front of your friends and your family.
2:46:24And
2:46:25and you have a lot of responsibility for
2:46:27the other members of your party, who as
2:46:29a result of that loss are no longer MPs.
2:46:32So, their livelihoods, their job, the
2:46:34thing that gives them purpose is gone.
2:46:37And in in many cases, that is not to do
2:46:39with the personal job that they have
2:46:41done.
2:46:42Thank you. You want dinner, chocolate
2:46:43dinner?
2:46:45Don't have that. That's just like a
2:46:46protein thing which is
2:46:48pretending to be healthy. That's your
2:46:50breakfast. Really chocolate.
2:46:51>> [laughter]
2:46:53>> Um
2:46:55You know, so it is you know, it is hard
2:46:57and
2:46:59it's you know, I'd be lying if I didn't
2:47:02say it wasn't hard. Um
2:47:05And it takes some time to
2:47:07uh
2:47:08you know, it takes some time to to
2:47:10recover from.
2:47:12But then,
2:47:14you know, what what you you know, for
2:47:16me,
2:47:17you know, what got me through that
2:47:19period including that bit
2:47:21was just remembering why I did it.
2:47:24I'm and
2:47:26you know, that weekend when we talked
2:47:29about it just before I became Prime
2:47:31Minister,
2:47:33that situation
2:47:36was very tough. Inflation was at a
2:47:3810-year high.
2:47:40Um
2:47:41the
2:47:42the my party was 36 points behind in in
2:47:46the polls. There'd just been this
2:47:48leadership
2:47:50thing.
2:47:52And
2:47:54I if you were just motivated by ambition
2:47:58and about winning and losing and
2:47:59position,
2:48:00then you would never have taken the job
2:48:02in the first place.
2:48:03I I I did the job because I felt at that
2:48:07moment it was my duty.
2:48:09Because I was better placed
2:48:12to or I was well placed to make a
2:48:15difference in the country at a difficult
2:48:16time.
2:48:17And that's what we talked about that
2:48:19weekend. That's why I did it knowing
2:48:21that it was going to be very tough.
2:48:24And when that finality of the tough
2:48:26moment came, it wasn't that it was any
2:48:28you know, I Any easier in that job.
2:48:30>> any easier, but you know, with with the
2:48:32time you're able to remember why you did
2:48:35it. And
2:48:37>> you did it. And how you did
2:48:38>> and to be able to look at yourself in
2:48:40the mirror and say, "Look, I I you know,
2:48:41that was my dharma, and that was my job,
2:48:43that was my duty to do this, to do it to
2:48:46the best of my ability,
2:48:47and to focus on that." And as the Gita
2:48:49says, you
2:48:51you know, you don't enjoy the fruits and
2:48:52the outcomes, you focus on doing your
2:48:55duty. And that is what ultimately gave
2:48:58me the strength to go through it, and
2:49:00the strength to cope with the the
2:49:02failure after it. Um
2:49:05And then in the fullness of time, we
2:49:07talked about this as well.
2:49:08Uh it's important to draw the right
2:49:11stories from one's failure if you are
2:49:14going to grow from them. Cuz life is
2:49:16full of ups and downs in all walks of
2:49:18life. And you you've got to use the
2:49:21failures and the setbacks to grow.
2:49:23So
2:49:24and actually this helped me with this
2:49:25over time is is is looking back on that
2:49:28overall period and making sure that
2:49:31I'm able to take away
2:49:33the things that I need to learn from it,
2:49:35and not
2:49:36the whole thing, treat it as if I was
2:49:38some victim, and just be filled with
2:49:41self-pity. Cuz if that's how you feel,
2:49:43you won't
2:49:45take any good lessons from it, and you
2:49:47won't grow as a an individual.
2:49:49Um so that to me is how I got through
2:49:52it, how it felt,
2:49:53which was not easy for all those
2:49:55reasons.
2:49:57How I dealt with it, and then hopefully
2:50:00how you can turn it into something that
2:50:02actually
2:50:03helps you in life rather than than holds
2:50:05you back.
2:50:06Is it easy to go going back to be a
2:50:09corporate after all of this?
2:50:12Uh well, well, I'm still I'm still in
2:50:14Parliament, and so that is my my anchor,
2:50:18my foundation. It's where I get my
2:50:19fulfillment from week in, week out. It's
2:50:22actually it's enjoyable, you know, it's
2:50:24enjoyable being in Parliament and not
2:50:26being
2:50:27you know, the person at the dispatch box
2:50:28having to deal with the problem.
2:50:29Sometimes it's actually nice better to
2:50:31ask the question. I'm enjoying that um
2:50:33as well.
2:50:34Uh and In the future, is that what you
2:50:36will pursue, politics?
2:50:37>> Yeah,
2:50:38you know, as we talked about earlier,
2:50:40right? The the future, who knows which
2:50:41direction it's going to take us.
2:50:43>> Near future, yes? I mean, the near
2:50:44future, that's where I am. Yeah, I'm I'm
2:50:46I'm in Parliament and staying in
2:50:47Parliament, and
2:50:49you know, I've got as we said, hopefully
2:50:51another 20 years ahead of me,
2:50:53uh and so we'll we'll and for the first
2:50:55time in a long time, I don't have an
2:50:57immediate Yeah. thing that I'm gunning
2:50:59for. So we'll see where the future goes.
2:51:01But this goes back to the adaptability
2:51:03point we talked about. My own career is
2:51:05one where I've gone from finance and
2:51:08investing to politics and government.
2:51:10Now I'm spending more time in
2:51:11technology. I
2:51:13This ability to adapt, to learn, to
2:51:16grow, that that is the
2:51:18the key trait, right? And I don't know
2:51:20what the next chapter is going to be. It
2:51:22could be back to one of these, it could
2:51:23be something completely different, who
2:51:24knows.
2:51:25Um but you've just got to be able to
2:51:27keep learning and adapting. And it's not
2:51:31just learning about new things, but
2:51:32learning from your failures so that you
2:51:33can hopefully succeed to higher heights
2:51:36in on the next thing you do. Being
2:51:39curious about your failures.
2:51:40>> [laughter]
2:51:41>> Well, you know, that's the point is you
2:51:42I think it's important that the story
2:51:43that you tell yourself about why things
2:51:45didn't work is really important. And
2:51:47it's easy not to be curious enough about
2:51:49it, and to assume it
2:51:51yeah, as I said, you were the victim of
2:51:52circumstance, or you can you know, as I
2:51:54said,
2:51:55you have to be more balanced.
2:51:58>> Yeah, you have to allow the
2:51:59>> You can't say it's all my fault, but
2:52:00equally you can't say it's all someone
2:52:01else's fault, right?
2:52:03>> Otherwise you cannot engage again. Yeah,
2:52:05the middle path, yeah. You have to
2:52:08you have to do that. So that is how I've
2:52:10um
2:52:10Thank you. Well done. Before we go to
2:52:12Akshata Right. Okay.
2:52:14>> There's a brand called Subko, which
2:52:16this particular coffee bean is from
2:52:18Kerala, but there's a bunch from
2:52:20Karnataka, which I will send you.
2:52:22They make
2:52:23>> Just tell me the name, I will I will
2:52:25They make really good chocolates. So and
2:52:26they this is coffee bean, is it? Yeah,
2:52:29no, cacao. Cacao beans. Yeah, okay, got
2:52:31That one has walnut in it. That's
2:52:33walnut. And this is really dark. If you
2:52:35like dark chocolate.
2:52:36>> dark chocolate. Both lovely.
2:52:39Um
2:52:40So your question
2:52:42Poets, politicians, we listen more to
2:52:44our politicians than our poets, and it's
2:52:47a problem. Yeah, yeah. So
2:52:51uh prior to Rishi doing
2:52:54his um
2:52:57job at number 10,
2:52:59I would have probably said poets,
2:53:02because this is how I used to how I have
2:53:04defined poets in the past.
2:53:05>> Mhm. Idealists,
2:53:08emotional, emotionally driven
2:53:11um people who can move with words. Words
2:53:15are very important to me. You know, it's
2:53:16part of
2:53:18I
2:53:19I would say it's it's how I've grown up
2:53:21through reading and writing and being
2:53:22moved by words and storytelling.
2:53:24>> Indeed, they break the Stanford business
2:53:26school class into poets and quants.
2:53:29Really? I was a quant. Actually, I was a
2:53:31poet.
2:53:32>> [laughter]
2:53:32>> Yes.
2:53:33Um so I would have said poets.
2:53:36I'm not saying today I won't say poets.
2:53:38The answer's more nuanced today.
2:53:46It also depends on how you define a
2:53:47politician, right? You know, you you can
2:53:49take one definition as
2:53:51sort of people who say one thing, do
2:53:53something else, people who are
2:53:56inherently obsessed with power.
2:53:59Um
2:54:00Sadly, in some cases,
2:54:02there's corruption involved. There's all
2:54:04these
2:54:05negative connotations.
2:54:08But I
2:54:11I think and I know I'm married to Rishi,
2:54:14and um
2:54:15I'm biased. Of course I I
2:54:18agree with that, but I think there are
2:54:20people like you, Rish, who can do it
2:54:22with a great deal of integrity, and who
2:54:24can bring about that impact
2:54:26um
2:54:28at scale,
2:54:30and do it with integrity. And I think
2:54:32those people need those people are
2:54:35needed in the political world. And I I'm
2:54:39optimistic that we will
2:54:42find, and there already are, and there
2:54:45will be more people like that who will
2:54:47approach
2:54:48politics as their purpose, who will be
2:54:51driven by
2:54:53passion
2:54:54for impact,
2:54:56um and who will get their validation
2:55:01because they can change people's lives
2:55:03for the better, right? So So I think
2:55:05today I would say both poets and
2:55:07politicians.
2:55:08>> [laughter]
2:55:09>> That is a good encapsulation of our
2:55:11journey, cuz we've gone if you ask me,
2:55:14we it's what we learn from each other,
2:55:15right? And
2:55:17And actually we spoke about in the
2:55:18Stanford speech, it
2:55:21you know, when we first met, Akshata was
2:55:22very passionate about making a
2:55:24difference and saving the world.
2:55:26>> Incredibly idealistic.
2:55:27>> The And and I think one of the things
2:55:29that you got
2:55:31from from me was actually understanding
2:55:33that's all very well, having the
2:55:35idealism. How do you channel that into
2:55:38outcome? And actually it's through as we
2:55:40were talking, how do you bring about
2:55:41change? The political process in
2:55:43government is
2:55:45it's not the only way, but it's the way
2:55:46to do it at the biggest scale.
2:55:48Um And if you'd asked me, funnily
2:55:50enough,
2:55:52I have probably moved in the other
2:55:54direction [laughter] over time. All the
2:55:55things we've been talking about, when we
2:55:57were talking about, you know, what
2:55:58classes you should take at Stanford, and
2:56:00how I've changed my approach over time.
2:56:02I'd like I think I I need to become more
2:56:05poetic,
2:56:06>> [laughter]
2:56:06>> um probably. And it's the lesson I
2:56:09I uh
2:56:11I think if I if I the thing that I don't
2:56:13do enough of, Mhm. which I wish I did,
2:56:16and I wish I did over time, is is not
2:56:19reading poetry, but reading fiction.
2:56:22So I'm someone who just People like me,
2:56:24I think in general, but I read just
2:56:26non-fiction. Almost thing I'm always
2:56:27reading for a purpose, you know, it's um
2:56:29how do I get better at X? How do I learn
2:56:31more about Y? What can I take from this
2:56:34experience that I Storytelling for
2:56:35dummies.
2:56:37>> [laughter]
2:56:37>> Right. And And And if I try if I could
2:56:40have forced myself to read, I said, not
2:56:43not poetry, probably, but more fiction,
2:56:45cuz I think
2:56:47actually
2:56:50if you spend most of your life doing
2:56:52what I do, which is reading for purpose,
2:56:54but what's the actionable takeaway from
2:56:56what I'm reading,
2:56:58you know about what to do and how to do
2:57:00it.
2:57:01You're probably less good at
2:57:02understanding the why. Mhm. And as
2:57:05Akshata was talking about before, you're
2:57:06less good at understanding people. And
2:57:09what fiction gives you, it's not the
2:57:11actionable takeaway, but it's a much
2:57:13better understanding of of people, of
2:57:16humanity, of
2:57:18emotions.
2:57:19And of purpose. And of purpose. As And I
2:57:22And that's I as it's not poetry, but
2:57:25if I could have made myself read more
2:57:27fiction over time, that would have been
2:57:28a
2:57:29a good a good thing. And if I may say,
2:57:32this is the first time I've ever
2:57:34interviewed a couple. Oh, wow. Okay.
2:57:37>> couple that
2:57:38>> Oh, you're very sweet. No, that's very
2:57:39kind of you. I We've never done an
2:57:41interview this long, ever.
2:57:43>> Yeah. And together. Well, definitely not
2:57:44together, cuz
2:57:45>> Evil eye and all that. I saw you
2:57:46>> Didn't feel like an interview though,
2:57:47right? No, not an interview. I said it
2:57:49was a conversation.
2:57:50>> But but more than a conversation, it
2:57:51kind of a rumination.
2:57:53>> Yeah. Yeah. [clears throat] And so Yeah,
2:57:55we've never done We've never done
2:57:56anything like that.
2:57:56>> We've We've actually like I'm really
2:58:00intrigued by this
2:58:01point that we all came arrived at
2:58:03through that question around, how do you
2:58:05get a 28-year-old Mhm.
2:58:08who is to get into politics
2:58:11when they're also, rightly, looking for
2:58:14both
2:58:15purpose and validation. Yeah.
2:58:18And I was I think
2:58:20as you said so beautifully, that if you
2:58:22can
2:58:23s-
2:58:24get someone of that age to engage with
2:58:29just one policy that can impact
2:58:32so many people at such a young age. Like
2:58:34what is more motivating than that,
2:58:36right?
2:58:38I can tell And I learned that Rishi
2:58:39likes poetry, so next birthday gift
2:58:41taken [laughter] care of. I said I said
2:58:42fiction or let's not go too far. Like
2:58:44one step at a time. But thank you guys
2:58:47for doing this. This was so much fun.
2:58:49This has been awesome. Thanks and great
2:58:50food as well.
2:58:52I'm amazed that we we we kept eating
2:58:54[music] and talking.
2:58:55>> Yeah. Try this one as well. This one is
2:58:56the dark one. Okay. Next time you're
2:58:59both in Bangalore
2:59:00Yeah, let's do something. Yeah, we'll be
2:59:02there. We'll be there next time.
2:59:03>> time we're in Bombay we'd love to come
2:59:04into Founder. Yeah, 100%. We'll talk
2:59:07about that separately. I know that
2:59:08sounds super exciting. Super exciting.
2:59:11>> three-month course which is beginning
2:59:13next month. So I'd love for you guys to
2:59:15come take a couple of lectures if you
2:59:16guys have time.
2:59:18And if you only need
2:59:21They're all really bright kids and
2:59:22strangely enough so many of them are
2:59:25from Stanford and Yale and Wharton. A
2:59:27lot of them have given up college and
2:59:29come back for this. All right. Oh, okay.
2:59:31So there's still a They're enrolled
2:59:33still.
2:59:35I'm So they're taking a cultural off or
2:59:36something.
2:59:39It's so exciting.
2:59:41And and you know what? [music] I have
2:59:42always fought for the consumer sector
2:59:44because fundamentally I think you and I
2:59:46I think I'm motivated by the same things
2:59:47[music] within the business space which
2:59:49is consumer behavior,
2:59:51right? Why how do people behave? Why do
2:59:54they behave the way they do? Thereby
2:59:55what kind of actions [music] do they
2:59:57take? What are the market market
2:59:59dynamics that influence these actions?
3:00:02Um and I've [music] always said
3:00:05yes, you know, unlike
3:00:08B2B [music] companies, unlike SaaS
3:00:11companies, unlike potentially companies
3:00:13in the AI
3:00:15deep tech space
3:00:17you don't see [music] outcomes quickly.
3:00:18You don't uh
3:00:21get those same kinds of financial
3:00:22validation quickly. But actually
3:00:26if you stick at it, some [music] of
3:00:27these companies dramatically change
3:00:29people's lives for the better. Yeah.
3:00:31Um
3:00:32>> [music]
3:00:32>> and and
3:00:33I think it's fascinating. How how often
3:00:35are you going to plan on doing it, do
3:00:36you think? Is it once a year or
3:00:38>> once a year. Yeah, you know, it'd be
3:00:39tough to do more than once a year. Cuz
3:00:41it is quite intense, right? 20 companies
3:00:43that get created. So once a year is good
3:00:45enough. Yeah, and it's a it's [music]
3:00:46quite three months
3:00:47and that's kind of one cohort.
3:00:49And you have one person leading it and
3:00:51then you have guest lectures coming
3:00:52[music] in or Uh there's a bunch of
3:00:54people leading it. Have you heard of
3:00:55this
3:00:56man called Kishore Biyani?
3:00:58>> Yes. Yeah, so he's [music] leading it.
3:01:00You know, Ronnie Screwvala.
3:01:02>> Yes, I know of him. Yeah. Yeah, they're
3:01:04they're all living there. Like I came
3:01:05back early today to do this, but they're
3:01:07all still there. Yeah, yeah. Having a
3:01:09good time.
3:01:10>> [laughter]
3:01:10>> I don't know about good time. Last night
3:01:12was
3:01:143:00 a.m. and they needed to really make
3:01:16a decision on some candidates. So they
3:01:18were like these young kids being woken
3:01:20up at 2:00 a.m.
3:01:22It's really like pushing them beyond
3:01:25the normal. But I'm sure in time they
3:01:28will appreciate that. [music] In time.
3:01:30>> [laughter]
3:01:31>> When they're
3:01:32when they're listing,
3:01:33ringing the bell, and you know, it will
3:01:35all have been worth while.
3:01:36>> I mean for a separate conversation,
3:01:37Nikhil, but one of the things I'm
3:01:40thinking about is cuz I'm a trustee of
3:01:43[music] the V&A Museum in London in
3:01:45London.
3:01:46And
3:01:48the V&A is
3:01:49their um
3:01:51focus is on creativity. [music] They're
3:01:53called the Museum of Creativity.
3:01:55And so what we're thinking is how do we
3:01:59how can museums
3:02:01>> [music]
3:02:02>> add value to the creative economy?
3:02:06Not just [music] come in and see some
3:02:08old things and marvel, but how can
3:02:11museums
3:02:12add active [music] value and work with
3:02:15the creative economy?
3:02:17Um
3:02:18So it'd be fascinating to have a
3:02:19conversation
3:02:20>> [music]
3:02:21>> around that at some point.

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