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Richard Helms (Full) Watergate Hearings Testimony — Transcript

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0:04[Music]
0:12now since you spent so much time as
0:15director of CIA the agency what
0:21recommendations can you make to this
0:23committee concerning new legislation to
0:26help prevent the misuse of the Central
0:29Intelligence Agency for political or
0:31other purposes other than the assigned
0:33purposes delineated in the act
0:35well senator Montoya I don't know how I
0:38legislates these matters I've never
0:41understood how morality and the proper
0:44conduct and the decency can be
0:46legislated about the in Washington over
0:52the years there have been many occasions
0:55when various people have tried to
0:57manipulate some organization or another
1:00in an improper way this is not new to us
1:04we read about in the papers constantly
1:06but how you legislate about this I swear
1:08to you sir I don't know in the Senate of
1:14the United States a resolution to
1:16establish a Select Committee of the
1:18Senate to conduct an investigation and
1:20study of the extent if any to which
1:22illegal improper or unethical activities
1:25were engaged in by any persons acting
1:28individually or in combination with
1:30others in the presidential election of
1:321972 or any campaign canvass or other
1:35activity related to it from Washington
1:38NPAC brings you gavel-to-gavel
1:40videotaped coverage of today's hearings
1:42by the Senate Select Committee and
1:44presidential campaign activities here is
1:47impact senior correspondent Robert
1:49MacNeil good evening the Watergate
1:52committee heard today from two former
1:54senior officials of the Central
1:56Intelligence Agency about how it helped
1:58Watergate burglary Howard hunt at the
2:00request of the White House the request a
2:03year before the Watergate break-in came
2:05from John Ehrlichman when hunt was
2:07working for the White House plumbers
2:08group former CIA director Richard Helms
2:11vehemently denied today
2:13that the agency had any part in the
2:15Watergate and said he was puzzled why it
2:17was so difficult to get that message
2:19across to acting FBI director gray just
2:22after the Watergate break-in but Helms
2:24did disclose today that one of the
2:27Watergate burglars Eugenio Martinez was
2:29on the CIA payroll at the time of
2:32Watergate and was hastily dropped Helms
2:34former deputy Robert Cushman
2:36now the general commanding the Marine
2:38Corps described supplying hunt with
2:40equipment and cues including a disguise
2:42and false papers in the summer of 1971
2:45for a secret White House project after
2:48being us by John Ehrlichman for health
2:50Cushman also recounted his troubles
2:52earlier this winter when Ehrlichman said
2:54he couldn't remember ever making such a
2:56request Cushman today confirmed that he
2:59did outside the hearings convicted
3:01Watergate conspirator James McCord today
3:04charged that the FBI followed special
3:06procedures in the Watergate
3:07investigation that slowed down the probe
3:10McCord says in a newspaper article that
3:12the FBI was required to clear all
3:14important leads with the Justice
3:16Department before following them up if
3:18this hadn't been the case says McCourt
3:20and if agents had searched his home and
3:21car soon after his arrest they would
3:24come they would have come up with
3:25$18,000 and hundred dollar bills and
3:27enough other clues to have broken the
3:29case wide open
3:30alright some of the side lights that
3:33come out of these hearings are as
3:34interesting as revelations of major
3:36developments today such a topic was what
3:38spies talk about and casual conversation
3:41impacts Peter Kerr reports that it is
3:43nothing cryptic have you ever wondered
3:46what real spies talk about well here's
3:48part of a conversation tape recorded
3:50July 22nd 1971 when ace White House
3:54sleuth a Howard hunt went down to the
3:56CIA to meet deputy director Robert H
3:58Cushman for the first time hunt I've
4:01been charged with quite a highly
4:03sensitive mission by the White House to
4:04visit and elicit information from an
4:06individual whose ideology we aren't
4:09entirely sure of they asked me to come
4:11over here and see if he could get me two
4:12things
4:13flash documentation and some degree of
4:16physical disguise general Cushman I
4:19don't see why not and a little bit later
4:21in the Congress
4:22Hut if you pardon my saying so you seem
4:25to have lost a little weight
4:26general Cushman yes I've taken some off
4:29I sort of go up and down when I go down
4:32it's because I go on the wagon and don't
4:33eat very much at all and that is hell to
4:35pay when you're being entertained and
4:37going to embassies and dinners but it's
4:39the only way I can lose weight is to be
4:40miserable really miserable then a little
4:44later in the conversation between hunt
4:46and general Cushman hunt says if I'm
4:50going to put on a physical disguise it's
4:51going to stick I wouldn't want to be
4:53seen walking out of here I'm sure
4:55they've got safe facilities downtown
4:56Cushman the police I used to meet people
4:59with an office building right near the
5:01Press Club there used to be a nightclub
5:03on the second floor and we used to meet
5:04people up there
5:05I had a gal who thought it was just lots
5:07of fun to be in this business she used
5:10to have me meeting people out on the dam
5:11park benches and all this stuff and I'd
5:14give her hell if necessary
5:15end of conversation now the transcript
5:18of this which was recorded by general
5:20Cushman incidentally also had the
5:22embarrassing revelation that the meeting
5:24with hunt was set up by John Ehrlichman
5:26of the White House staff a fact that
5:28Cushman really couldn't seem to recall
5:30during a series of flip-flop memos and
5:32testimony earlier this year all right
5:36tomorrow Peter reports the major witness
5:38will be former acting FBI director al
5:40Patrick gray who will start things off
5:42with a 40 page statement that's very
5:44critical of the White House
5:46presumably he will also be asked about
5:48the new McCord charges at the close of
5:51tonight's broadcast we'll have an
5:52interview with Dick Cavett who's just
5:54completed a program with four committee
5:56members to help you watch the
5:58intervening hours here is impacts
6:00nightly viewing guide in our number one
6:03former CIA director Helms says he felt
6:06obliged by law to help with a
6:07psychological profile on Daniel Ellsberg
6:10he suggests that law dealing with
6:12government leaks be changed Elm says
6:14that when John Dean put out feelers
6:16about using CIA funds he issued orders
6:19to general Walters that he do absolutely
6:21nothing to hurt the CIA's reputation in
6:24our number two Helms admits that one
6:26Watergate burglar Martinez was getting a
6:29CI a monthly retainer to keep an eye on
6:31escapees from Cuba
6:33Helms also says he bought when Howard
6:35hunt issued a request for the use of a
6:37CIA secretary located in Paris in the
6:40third hour Helms describes his
6:42resistance to John Dean's inquiries
6:44about using the CIA to pay bail money
6:46and salaries for Watergate defendants
6:48asked why he didn't probe the
6:50involvement of former CIA employees in
6:52Watergate Helms says his office turned
6:54everything it learned over to the FBI in
6:57the fourth hour the former deputy
6:59director of the CIA general Robert
7:01Cushman details Howard hunts request for
7:03false identification papers for gordon
7:05Liddy also in that hour he says he
7:08complained to John Ehrlichman about
7:09Hunt's request in Ehrlichman said he
7:11would restrain hunt in the fifth hour
7:13Cushman testifies that Howard hunt
7:15wanted a camera in a tobacco pouch for
7:18use on a new assignment and in that hour
7:20Cushman admits that the profile of
7:22Daniel Ellsberg was the only one done on
7:24an American that he can recall in his
7:26three years at the CIA now to Senator
7:29Ervin his gavel and today's proceedings
7:57committee will come to order
7:59I am constrained to make some remarks
8:05concerning a member of this committee
8:08senator Danny in no way of Hawaii
8:14senator Inouye is often an American made
8:21it born American of Japanese ancestry I
8:25don't know a fine American he showed his
8:33devotion to our country by fighting on
8:37this flag not only for the livers of our
8:41country but for the liberties of the
8:42free world
8:43in the Second World War he suffered of
8:48severe wounds which necessitated the
8:54amputation of his right arm he was
8:58decorated with the Distinguished Service
9:00Cross for extraordinary heroism in
9:04action with an armed enemy of the United
9:07States and I and he's proved himself in
9:13that a lot of days as one of the most
9:17dedicated Americans this country has
9:19ever known and I feel that the events of
9:24yesterday make it appropriate for me to
9:27make these remarks concerning a member
9:31of this committee who has proved himself
9:33was one of the most gallant of all
9:36Americans in the history of this
9:38Republic mr. chairman senator Baker was
9:43chairman may I say that I've known Danny
9:45Inouye since I've been in the Senate and
9:47there's no man I think is more loyal and
9:50dedicated to his country I don't know of
9:53anyone on this committee who's made a
9:54greater contribution to its efforts than
9:58senator no way I have a great affection
10:01for him as well as a great admiration
10:03for him
10:05we are in a tension filled atmosphere
10:10and it's unfortunate that things of this
10:12sort of curve I think a mark Center
10:16knows greatness is that I'm sure it will
10:19not affect his other consideration of
10:23the matters that are brought to our
10:24attention I'm sorry that the events of
10:28the last several days have occurred open
10:33think that it would not affect the
10:35objectivity and the efficiency and the
10:38effectiveness of this committee and I
10:41commend you mr. chairman for bringing
10:44that matter to the attention of the
10:47official record and I believe now it's
10:50behind us and we can get on with the
10:52business at hand thank you sir
10:55no further comments the council will
10:58call the first witness
11:00former director hounds
11:07you swear that the evidence you shall
11:10give to the Senate Select Committee on
11:12presidential campaign activity shall be
11:14the truth the whole truth and nothing
11:15but the truth so help you God I do you
11:20might state your full name and present
11:23address for the purposes of the record
11:27my name is Richard Helms and I'm
11:31presently ambassador to Iran resident in
11:35Tehran
13:03I should have addressed you as
13:06ambassador Helms and mr. chairman the
13:10ambassador Helms will be questioned
13:13initially by mr. dated dorsen assistant
13:15chief counsel pastor Helms how long have
13:26you held your present position I've been
13:29in Tehran since the middle of March of
13:32this year and prior to that were you the
13:36director of the Central Intelligence
13:37Agency yes I was the director of Central
13:40Intelligence was my title how long were
13:47you a director approximately six and a
13:49half years I believe the I was sworn in
13:52on June the 30th 1966 and I left office
13:56when mr. Schlesinger became director on
14:00the 2nd of February 1973 how long did
14:05you how long have you been a were you
14:08with the Central Intelligence Agency
14:10from the day at stores opened in 1947
14:14did you learn ambassador Helms in July
14:18of 1971 that E Howard hunt had been made
14:23a consultant to the White House I was
14:27informed of this and you recall how you
14:30were informed not specifically any
14:32longer I just I remember being told that
14:35he had gone to work for the White House
14:37but precisely under what circumstances I
14:39was told and on what specific date I do
14:41not recall did you have a conversation
14:44with general Cushman concerning Howard
14:47hunt in the summer of 1971 yes I recall
14:51that the general Cushman informed me
14:54that he had authorized giving the Howard
14:58hunt a tape recorder and a camera and I
15:04asked for what purpose and he said he
15:06wanted to conduct a one-time interview
15:08and that he'd been properly
15:10by the White House and that they were
15:12that he was working at their behest what
15:15how long have you known Howard hunt oh
15:20I've known him over the years when he
15:21worked for the agency and you recall
15:24approximately how long he worked for the
15:25agency
15:26or he must have worked for almost oh
15:28somewhere over 15 years anyway and what
15:32was general Cushman's position at that
15:34time in July of 71 that's correct
15:38he was the Deputy Director of Central
15:40Intelligence to your knowledge was the
15:45tape recorder and the camera given to
15:49mr. hunt I was informed that it was and
15:51my preoccupation at the time was to find
15:53out whether this was these were normal
15:56pieces of equipment and by normal I mean
15:59simply available in any store in
16:00downtown Washington who carried this
16:02kind of equipment or whether there was
16:04something tricky about him and I was
16:05assured they're perfectly routine and
16:07straightforward pieces of equipment I
16:09might say parenthetically that were in
16:12the last couple of days and talking with
16:15some of the gentlemen a special
16:17prosecutor Cox's office but some
16:19memorandum there about a clandestine
16:21camera having been given to our time I
16:24frankly sir don't know what a
16:25clandestine camera is the camera takes
16:27pictures or it doesn't that's all of
16:29those well could you describe the camera
16:32a little bit more ambassador I've never
16:34seen it do you know whether it was a
16:36camera that was concealed in some way
16:37I've been told it was put in a tobacco
16:40pouch carried in a tobacco pouch will
16:46you advised of any further requests by
16:48mr. hunter for assistance subsequent to
16:51this conversation of which I've just
16:54been speaking I learned I believe in a
16:57memorandum that mr. hunt had asked to
17:00have a secretary who was stationed with
17:04the CIA in Paris brought back from Paris
17:08and assigned to him in the White House
17:10he also wanted this to be done secretly
17:13and he didn't want anybody
17:15know about it that to me was
17:17unacceptable I saw no reason for this it
17:21seemed to me that the agency was being
17:23used it was being asked to have somebody
17:25brought back from parents and the signs
17:27of a man doing unidentified chores at
17:31the White House so I got a hold of
17:33general Cushman and told him that I
17:35thought this was totally unacceptable I
17:37wouldn't stand for it
17:40I don't recall whether it was then or a
17:42few days later but at some point the
17:46various additional requests which Hunt
17:48was making of the agency seemed to be
17:50totally unacceptable and I asked general
17:52Cushman to call mr. Ehrlichman and tell
17:55him that we just weren't going to do
17:56this anymore
18:00mr. ambassador Helms I'm advised there's
18:03some trouble hearing you to the rear of
18:04the room perhaps if you could bring the
18:06microphone a little bit closer to you
18:07this would be the story of my life and
18:10Senate committees I don't know whether I
18:12don't raise my voice high enough for
18:13what but or maybe I'm not speaking into
18:15the microphone now you've indicated that
18:21in your conversation with general
18:22Cushman that you indicated to mr.
18:26general Cushman that John Ehrlichman
18:30should be called why was it that John
18:33Ehrlichman was to be called because it
18:34was my distinct impression that he was
18:36the one who had arranged with general
18:37Cushman to have hunt get these pieces of
18:40equipment
18:47ambassador Helms won for the first time
18:50did you learn of the burglary of dr.
18:53Lewis Fielding's office that is dr.
18:56Daniel Ellsberg's psychiatrists office
18:59I forget which weekend in May it was I
19:02think the second weekend of May this
19:04year 1973 I was in Shiraz and I picked
19:09up on Sunday an english-language
19:11newspaper and saw on the front page of
19:16it that had been a burglary of an office
19:18of a psychiatrist in California and the
19:22burglary had been done is said in the
19:24newspaper story with the assistance of
19:26CIA equipment that was the first time
19:28I'd ever heard of dr. feeling and a
19:30burglary or the fact that dr. Ellsberg
19:32had a psychiatrist I do know Bureau
19:38knowledge whether any equipment was used
19:40in the burglary that was the property of
19:42the CIA I've been assured by members of
19:47the agency and this assurance was given
19:49me when I was back here in May
19:51testifying before four other
19:52congressional committees that the
19:56equipment that was given to hunt was not
19:59used in the burglary of dr. Ellsberg's
20:01office that actually mr. hunt was
20:03physically not at the office he was
20:06staked out of dr. ELLs at the dr.
20:08Fielding's residence and that since he
20:12wasn't given any burglary equipment by
20:14the agency I've always wondered how it
20:16was that he used that equipment in the
20:20break-in so this is one of the things
20:23that seems to have been perpetuated is
20:25one of the myths around here that he
20:26somehow got burglary equipment from the
20:28agency which helped him break into
20:29places and I'm not aware of any burglary
20:32equipment he ever got from the agency
20:35ambassador Helms during the summer of
20:381971 did you learn of a request by a
20:42member of the White House staff for the
20:45Central Intelligence Agency to do a
20:48psychological or psychiatric profile of
20:50dr. Ellsberg yes I was familiar with
20:53request some time before this mr. David
20:58Young who was one of the assistants at
21:02the White House had originally been on
21:04dr. Kissinger staff informed me that he
21:08was being transferred to mr. Ehrlichman
21:09staff in other words he was going to
21:11work for mr. Ehrlichman and that he'd
21:13been given some duties in connection
21:16with general security procedures in the
21:18government classification of documents
21:21investigation of leaks and such of other
21:24such matters subsequent to that he
21:28called me and said that he wanted to get
21:30into these things he wanted to find out
21:32how the agency and the intelligence
21:34community handled a classification of
21:36documents and other security procedures
21:39I said I thought under the circumstances
21:41the best thing for me to do would be to
21:43put him in touch with the agency's
21:45director of security a gentleman named
21:47Howard Osborne who would then be able to
21:50talk with him and be as responsive to
21:53his requests as the agency could be it
21:57was apparently to mr. Osborn that mr.
22:00Young originally made the request for a
22:02profile on dr. Ellsberg mr. Osborne and
22:06brought this request to me sued me
22:10ambassador could you briefly summarize
22:12at the present time what this profile is
22:16there had been well I guess I'm sort of
22:24searching for a word here but in any
22:26event over a period of some years the
22:29agency had developed a technique for
22:33putting together a lot of information
22:35about a foreigner maybe a foreign
22:37statesman or a fire
22:38dignitary and then attempting to analyze
22:42what sort of a human being he was these
22:46things were called variously I think
22:48psychological profile is as good a title
22:51as any psychological study the idea was
22:54to give insights and to what motivated
22:56some of these individuals why they did
22:59things the way they did and so forth
23:02David Young knew that the agency before
23:06wrote papers such as this because he had
23:09seen them when he was on dr. Kissinger
23:10staff so he then said that he wanted the
23:17agency to do this and I remonstrated
23:19with him I said we have nothing we know
23:21nothing about dr. Ellsberg I've never
23:23laid eyes on him in my life we have no
23:25records on him we know nothing about him
23:27and I think this is an imposition to ask
23:29us to do this he pled with me he said
23:33that this was very important that the
23:35White House was very much interested in
23:38getting this material sorted out but mr.
23:41Ehrlichman regardless of highest
23:43priority so to dr. Kissinger that we
23:47should help that we were the only ones
23:49they knew in town who did things of this
23:50kind and that practice of doing them and
23:53that please would we do so I want to say
23:59here that the agency has a charge under
24:03the statute of or the National Security
24:06Act of 1947 which makes the director
24:10responsible for the protection of
24:13intelligence sources and methods from
24:15unauthorized disclosure that's written
24:17into the law and this is a charge has
24:20been on the director since 1947 and it's
24:23been a very difficult charge because
24:25finding out how leaks occur and how the
24:27enemy gets privileged information things
24:29of that kind is very difficult to do
24:31without having an investigative staff
24:33and the agency never has had
24:35negative staff for this these purposes
24:37and therefore this business about leaks
24:40and investigations thereof has been a
24:43very difficult if not impossible charge
24:45to carry out and when I was testifying
24:48before the Senate Foreign Relations
24:49Committee back in May in response to a
24:53question from Senator Hubert Humphrey I
24:55suggested that this language in the law
24:57either be taken out or amended in such a
24:59way that it was a fair charge on the
25:01director rather than what I thought was
25:03an unfair charge but it was that charge
25:05which gave him the leverage to rather
25:09oblige me to go along with an effort to
25:11make this profile did the staff of the
25:15Central Intelligence Agency they're apt
25:18to prepare such a profile yes they did
25:20and was it forwarded to mr. young I
25:24understand that it was forwarded to mr.
25:26young that it was found to be
25:27unsatisfactory that mr. Young
25:30remonstrated with the people who had
25:31written it about the fact that it was
25:33unsatisfactory I believe it was I've
25:35learned since that it was pointed out to
25:37them that more material was going to
25:40have to be provided otherwise they
25:42couldn't do any better than they've done
25:43already mr. Young said all right I will
25:46try and get you some more material which
25:48I believe he did so that the second
25:51profile was written and was the second
25:54profile or delivered to mr. young also I
25:56believe in other words this is the
25:58second version I think that's better
26:00English and did you have a conversation
26:02with mr. Young in connection with the
26:05delivery of the second profile to him
26:07yes as a matter of fact I did call him
26:10and I told him that the psychologists
26:13and psychiatrists who worked on this
26:15were very disturbed about the whole
26:16exercise they didn't feel that the
26:19material they've been given was adequate
26:20that they were being put in an unfair
26:22position that they didn't want their
26:24professional reputations put on the line
26:27as a result of this kind of an exercise
26:29and that if he was insisting on having
26:32this then I want his understanding and
26:34his undertaking but he would not
26:35identify it with the agency and put
26:38these fellows in jeopardy
26:42put these fellows professional
26:44reputation in jeopardy which is a during
26:48the period that the two profiles were
26:51prepared which I believe was took us
26:53into early November of 1971 what was
27:00your understanding as to the identity of
27:02the persons over at the White House who
27:04were involved in requesting and the
27:07profile and providing information to the
27:10agency for the profile I never heard of
27:15anybody being connected with this
27:17exercise except mr. David Young and when
27:20I returned here in May of this year 1973
27:23I was informed at the agency that during
27:27this period that this psychologists have
27:30been consulting with David Young at the
27:32White House that Howard could have been
27:33present on one occasion anyway and that
27:36he had specifically asked them not to
27:38inform me that he had been present they
27:40certainly did not inform me so I was
27:42totally unaware of his identification
27:44with this exercise many for him whatever
27:45and the first time you heard about his
27:48participation was in May of 1973 that is
27:51correct to the best of your knowledge
27:54Lasseter Hellmann's was any of the
27:56material that was used in the
27:59preparation of the psychological profile
28:03derived from the office of the
28:04psychiatrist of dr. Daniel Ellsberg or
28:07from any other illegal or improper
28:09source I have never heard that alleged
28:15bastard Holmes had liked now to direct
28:17our attention to June of 1972 and ask
28:21you when for the first time did you hear
28:23of the break-in of the Democratic
28:27National Committee headquarters at the
28:28Watergate it's my impression that I
28:31heard about it read about it the
28:33newspapers or heard it on the radio but
28:36[Music]
28:42this is not an elapse of memory this is
28:44just one of those things that this far
28:47this far back it's hard to know just
28:49exactly who might have told me or how I
28:51might have heard it certainly it was big
28:54news from the moment it happened and
28:56during the days immediately following
28:58the break-in were there conversations at
29:00the CIA concerning the break end as in
29:04the first place
29:06sometime on that weekend I received a
29:08telephone call from mr. Howard Osman the
29:11director of security to inform me that
29:14of the names of the individuals who had
29:17participated in the break-in and also to
29:20say that mr. hunt in some fashion was
29:23connected with it
29:25mr. Osmonds call to me was a perfectly
29:27routine matter that there was a a charge
29:33on him as director of security to inform
29:35me whenever anybody in the agency got in
29:37any kind of trouble with their present
29:39employees or past employees in other
29:41words right now so that I didn't have to
29:45catch up with these events like suicides
29:47and house break-ins and rapes and the
29:49various things that happened to the
29:51employees of any organization in the
29:52city like Washington so this is a
29:54perfectly routine thing and when he
29:56heard about these xci people who had
29:58abroad involved in this burglary he
30:00called me up and notified me about it on
30:03Monday when I came to the office that
30:07been no mention in the papers of mr.
30:09hunt so I got a hold of mr. Hoffman and
30:11said how come you told me that mr. hunt
30:12was involved with this and he said well
30:15there were some papers found in the
30:16hotel rule or one of the
30:18rumors Hunt's name on it and it looks as
30:20though he was somewhere in the area when
30:22they break in took place so I said all
30:24right and then from then on obviously
30:28there were various conversations in the
30:30agency as we went to work on various
30:32requests from the FBI for information
30:34about the people in their background and
30:36so forth and it formerly been employed
30:38by the agency am I correct that James
30:40McCord also was a former employee of the
30:42agency was and when did mr. McCord and
30:45Mr Hunt leave the employ of the agency
30:48they they left it at different times in
30:521970 they were both retired as I recall
30:56it now directing your attention to June
31:0322nd 1972 which was the day before your
31:09meeting with mr. Ehrlichman mr. Haldeman
31:12and general Walters at the White House
31:13did you have a conversation with Patrick
31:16gray on that afternoon namely the
31:18afternoon of June 22nd I believe that
31:21the committee is in possession of a
31:22memorandum which says that our
31:24memorandum or a note from mr. gray that
31:26says I had this conversation I have no
31:28reason to question that at all I was
31:30talking back and forth mr. gray at
31:32various times in connection with this
31:35Watergate break-in so I have no reason
31:38to doubt that there was one on the 22nd
31:40of June in these conversations did you
31:42discuss the possibility of CIA
31:45involvement in the break-in I assured
31:47was degre that the CIA had no
31:49involvement in the break-in no
31:51involvement whatever and it was my
31:54preoccupation consistently from then to
31:56this time to make this point and to be
31:59sure that everybody understands that it
32:01doesn't seem to get across very well for
32:03some reason but the agency had nothing
32:05to do with a Watergate break-in I hope
32:08all the newspaper men in the room hear
32:10me clearly
32:11now ambassador Helms I'd like to move
32:16that into the June 23rd 1972 and ask you
32:20if you recall attending the meeting with
32:23mr. Ehrlichman mr. Haldeman and general
32:27Walters I do recall it
32:29where was that meeting held that meeting
32:31was held in mr. Ehrlich goons office on
32:33the second floor of the East Wing West
32:38Wing of the White House do you recall
32:40the time of that meeting the meeting was
32:42had been originally scheduled for twelve
32:43o'clock it was changed to one o'clock
32:45and it took place shortly after 1:00
32:47o'clock could you please describe to us
32:51in substance what happens at that
32:53meeting general Walters and I arrived
32:57first and waited for a few minutes and
33:02mr. Haldeman and mr. Ehrlichman came
33:05into the room as best I can recall what
33:10was said and mr. Holabird did most of
33:13the talking so and whatever mr.
33:17Ehrlichman contributed in the course of
33:18this was either but not as had heard a
33:20smile or to agree with what mr. Haldeman
33:22said I just simply want to introduce it
33:25this way because then it's a little bit
33:26easier for me to describe mr. Haldeman
33:30said that the was a lot of flack about
33:34the Watergate burglary that the
33:37opposition was capitalizing on it that
33:42it was going to it was apparently
33:45causing some sort of unidentified
33:47trouble and he wanted to know whether
33:51the agency had anything to do with it I
33:53assured him that the agency had nothing
33:55to do with it
33:57he then said that the five men who had
34:01been found in the Democratic National
34:02Committee headquarters have been
34:04arrested that seemed to be adequate
34:07under the circumstances that the FBI was
34:10investigating what this was all about
34:13and that they unidentified were
34:20concerned about some FBI investigations
34:23in Mexico he also at that time made some
34:28what to me was an incoherent reference
34:31to an investigation of Mexico or
34:34investigation running into the Bay of
34:36Pigs I don't know what the reference was
34:39alleged to be but in any event I assured
34:42him that I have no interest in the Bay
34:44of Pigs that many years later that
34:45everything in connection without it been
34:47dealt with or liquidated as far as I was
34:49aware and I didn't care what they ran
34:52into in connection with that at some
34:58juncture in this conversation mr. hollom
35:01and then said that something the effect
35:03has been decided that the general
35:05Walters will go and talk to acting
35:07director grey of the FBI and indicate to
35:12him that these operations or these
35:14investigations of the FBI might run into
35:16CIA operations in Mexico and that it was
35:20desirable that the this not happened and
35:24that the investigation therefore should
35:26be either tapered off or reduced or
35:29something but there was no language
35:32saying stopped as far as I recall at
35:37this point the references to Mexico were
35:42quite unclear to me I had to recognize
35:46that if the White House the president
35:49mr. Haldeman somebody in high authority
35:51and information about something in
35:54Mexico which I did not have information
35:56about which is quite possible the White
35:58House constantly as the information
35:59which others don't have but it would be
36:01a prudent thing for me to find out if
36:03there was any possibility that some CIA
36:05operation was being was going to be
36:08affected and therefore I wanted the
36:11necessary time to do this I say this an
36:14explanation of the fact that it seems
36:16that since I had consistently pointed
36:21out that no CIA operations have been
36:24violated by any investigation up to then
36:26that
36:27had nothing to do with the Watergate
36:28burglary the fact of the matter was that
36:31if an investigation continued to go on
36:34it might run into something we were
36:35doing in Mexico I mean this possibility
36:37always have to exist nobody knows
36:39everything about everything so at this
36:44point I think it was repeated a second
36:50time that General Walters was to go and
36:52see acting director gray with this
36:54charge it was then indicated that acting
36:58director gray would probably be
36:59expecting the call that he was looking
37:01for some kind of guidance in this matter
37:02and that this should take place as soon
37:07as possible
37:07I believe mr. Ehrlichman at that point
37:09made his sole contribution to the
37:11conversation which was that he should
37:14get down and see gray is just as fast as
37:16he could we left this meeting mr.
37:21general waters and I and went downstairs
37:23to the automobile and I spoke to general
37:27Walters along the following lines I said
37:30when you go to see Acting Director gray
37:31I think you should confine yourself to
37:33reminding him that the agency and the
37:35FBI have a delimitation agreement it's
37:38been an understanding for many years
37:40that if the agency runs and any FBI
37:43agents or operations and the FBI should
37:46be immediately notified and if the FBI
37:47runs and 2/8 any agency agents or
37:50operation it shall be immediately
37:52notified I wasn't too sure whether
37:56acting director gray was familiar with
37:58this because he had not been acting
38:00director of the FBI for very long
38:02I wanted general waters to understand
38:04about this because he's been with the
38:06agency I think only about six weeks at
38:08that time and had been having briefings
38:09and I wasn't sure whether this had ever
38:11come to his attention in other words I
38:13was asking him to make a legitimate
38:14request of the Acting Director of the
38:17FBI that if they ran at any CIA
38:19operations in Mexico or anyplace else
38:22they were to notify us immediately
38:23and I thought general waters should
38:25restrict his conversation with acting
38:27degre to that point precisely whether he
38:31did or not well you will have an
38:33opportunity to ask him and to your
38:37knowledge did general Walters have a
38:38meeting with Patrick right yes he had
38:41one very shortly after this meeting in
38:44the White House because he reported to
38:46me later in the day about his meeting
38:48with gray that he'd been to see him that
38:51the general purport of what they had
38:54discussed and then for the first time I
38:57learned that acting director gray had
39:00told general Walters at this meeting
39:02about some money having been sent to
39:03Mexico I was unaware of any morning
39:07having been sent there at the time and
39:09even that explanation didn't say what
39:11the money was for but also floating
39:14around in this at the time was the name
39:17of a Mexican lawyer that we've been
39:19asked to check out by the FBI to find
39:21out if it was that if this man was in
39:23any way connected with the CIA
39:25his name was Oh Gary I believe and we
39:28have been running traces which is a word
39:31of art of going through the records to
39:33find out and checking with our people in
39:34Mexico to see if they knew him and so
39:36forth and I was some days subsequent
39:39that we got the information back that he
39:41was indeed a liar in Mexico but we'd
39:43never had any connection with him and I
39:44so notified the FBI now on Monday June
39:5126 did general Walters receive a
39:54telephone call from John Dean general
39:58Walters told me that he had been called
40:00by a man he did not know in the white
40:03house named John Dean and that Dean had
40:08asked to see him and when Walter said
40:12well I what do you want to see me about
40:14and so forth I believe Dean referred to
40:17the matters on which we had talked with
40:19Haldeman and Ehrlichman on the previous
40:21Friday
40:22in any event Dean said to general
40:25Walters if you want to verify my
40:28bonafide 'yes and who I am and
40:31i authority to talk with you please call
40:33John Ehrlichman so by the time Walters
40:36talked to me he said he had talked to
40:38Dean had verified by Congress telephone
40:41conversation with Ehrlichman that it was
40:43alright to talk to Dean and that he was
40:45going down to see him now when General
40:49Walters came back from seeing mr. Dean
40:53did he talk to you about the meeting he
40:55reported the meeting to me and told me
40:57that Dean had raised with him this
40:59question of the Watergate burglary that
41:03there was a lot there were a lot of
41:05problems in connection with problems
41:07unidentified was there any way in which
41:10the agency could help them so on it was
41:17quite clear that some kind of feelers
41:19were being put out to see a if there was
41:21any agency involvement or B whether the
41:24agency was prepared to assist in some
41:26way which is not at all identified it
41:30was at this meeting with General Walters
41:32when he was reporting this to me that I
41:35told him that I wanted him to be
41:37absolutely certain that he permitted
41:42nothing to happen using the agency's
41:45name facilities or anything else in
41:47connection with this business I said I
41:50didn't care whether he wanted to be a
41:51scapegoat I didn't care what he was
41:53prepared to quit on the issue I didn't
41:55care anything about that I simply wanted
41:57him to do absolutely nothing because I
42:00told him point-blank that even though he
42:03was a military officer and even though
42:04he was a presidential appointee that if
42:07he did something wrong it would was
42:08perched the name of the agency no matter
42:10whether he took the blame or not and I
42:11was simply not going to have it and I
42:13wanted him to be abundantly clear on
42:15this and any conversation yet with mr.
42:17Dean or with anybody else and as he
42:19reported to me on the subsequent two
42:21conversations with mr. Dean I know he
42:24reaffirmed this but I said now you hang
42:27in there you're doing fine but don't you
42:29yield an inch you've alluded to the two
42:33meetings that general Walters had with
42:37John Dean on the 27th and 20
42:40a did general Walters notify you before
42:42each meeting and briefed you as to what
42:45occurred after each meeting generals
42:47were very good about this is the best I
42:49recall it he told me each time that he
42:51was going down there and when the
42:53meeting was over he came back and
42:54reported what had taken place at it and
42:56could you briefly summarize first
42:58ambassador what general Walters told you
43:01with respect to the meeting of the 27th
43:04and the meeting of the 28th it is my
43:07recollection that it was at the meeting
43:09of the 27th which was Tuesday I believe
43:12that the issue first came up of whether
43:15or not the CIA out of its covert funds
43:18was prepared to provide bail money for
43:21the defendants in the Watergate burglary
43:26not only did this issue come up but I
43:29also believe that the additional point
43:31was made would it be possible for the
43:34CIA to pay the salaries of these
43:37individuals while they served their jail
43:40sentences general Walters and I have
43:47told you about the conversation I had
43:49with general warrants today before about
43:51how he was to guide himself in this
43:52matter
43:54pointed out to mr. Deane that the agency
43:57couldn't possibly do anything like that
43:59but he had no authority to do it on his
44:02own that his authorities derived from me
44:04and that he knew what my position was
44:06and in addition he said he couldn't
44:10couldn't conceivably imagine that a
44:12thing like that would remain secret
44:14forever
44:14and last but not least under the ground
44:19rules which we operate with the Congress
44:21salutes the agency operates with the
44:24Congress of the United States and the
44:25exceptional expenditure of this kind
44:27would have to be identified to the
44:28chairman of the Senate Appropriations
44:30Committee and the chairman of the House
44:32Appropriations Committee during the is
44:37obviously cooled mr. Deane's order and
44:41it was so reported to you yes during the
44:45week of the 26th did you receive a
44:47telephone call from Patrick of gray with
44:50respect to setting up a meeting
44:52between representatives of the two
44:54agencies yes I do recall a conversation
44:57to set up a meeting because I was
44:59anxious to have one with him there were
45:00a lot of crises we were running there
45:02were in the involvement of these former
45:04CIA people that we've been passing to
45:06the FBI there was trying to be a lot of
45:08leaks out of the FBI for the first time
45:11that I could remember on matters of this
45:13kind of leaks of ongoing operational
45:15material and I wanted to get together
45:18with him and some of his people to see
45:19if we couldn't get some of these things
45:22not straightened out so much it's get to
45:25walking along and in harmony so we
45:30agreed to have the meeting the next day
45:32the next morning which I believe was the
45:3528th if I'm I may be mistaken it's all
45:38in the record I'm sure he called back
45:40and said that he was so busy that he
45:42couldn't make the meeting it wasn't
45:43possible for him to hold it and he would
45:45probably have to put it off until the
45:46following week I told him I was sorry
45:49about that because I was planning to
45:51leave the end of the week in which we're
45:53speaking to go to Australia and that I
45:55wasn't going to be there the following
45:56week and he had a meeting he was going
45:58to have to be with General Orders now I
46:01asked him about the second two meetings
46:07on the 27th and 28th between general
46:11Walters and mr. Dean did a summary that
46:13you give gave us applied to the two
46:15meetings together or was that solely
46:18with respect to the meeting of the 27th
46:20I am NOT able any longer mr. Council to
46:24sort out precisely what out of my own
46:27memory what occurred at each of these
46:29meetings I have two very clear
46:32recollections one was that it was the
46:33second meeting that the question of the
46:35bail money came up because I don't
46:37recall that at all in connection with my
46:39longer conversation with general waters
46:42and for the first meeting as far as the
46:44third meeting was concerned by a
46:46distinct impression of that was that
46:48this was just more feelers and that it
46:50was relatively short because mr. Deane
46:52was getting nowhere was general
46:55just one or two questions more mr.
46:57ambassador you were familiar were you
47:01not with the fact that general Walters
47:03was preparing memoranda of these
47:05meetings yes because after the issue
47:09came up with possible bail or paying the
47:13salaries of the fellows who had broken
47:16in this struck me that we were getting
47:19into an area here which was very
47:21questionable indeed and that therefore
47:24these various meetings ought to be a
47:26matter of record in case this ever came
47:28up in any future time so it was at that
47:30point that in a conversation as I recall
47:33it general Walters either general Walsh
47:35or I are both of us agreed that this
47:37oughta be or these things ought to be
47:38reduced to writing in the record ought
47:40to be kept am i correct then that you
47:45did go to Australia around the 1st of
47:47July of 1972 yes I did and that Patrick
47:50gray did not schedule the meeting
47:52between reschedule the meeting between
47:54the two of you before you left I never
47:56met with him mr. chairman I have no
48:00further questions at this time
48:02in a moment Fred Thompson wants to
48:05compare today's testimony with some
48:07earlier statements made by mr. Helms
48:09public televisions coverage of the
48:11Senate hearings will continue after a
48:13pause for station identification are
48:15abridged coverage of these hearings is
48:17provided as a public service by the
48:19member stations of PBS the Public
48:22Broadcasting Service from Washington
48:28impact continues its coverage of
48:30hearings by the Senate Select Committee
48:32on presidential campaign activities here
48:35again correspondent Robert MacNeil as we
48:38go back to the hearings minority counsel
48:39Fred Thompson is about to question
48:41Richard Helms
49:04this town's as my friends down here
49:09maybe we can do this and that at the
49:11same time still let me turn this I can
49:16face you and be and very good as I
49:20understand it you had a conversation
49:21with Patrick gray on June the 22nd when
49:26you advised him that the CIA was not
49:28involved in the break-in was your
49:31conversation limited to CIA involvement
49:34in the break-in or did you go into
49:36whether or not the investigation might
49:40undercover other CIA operations possibly
49:43I don't recall ever discussing with mr.
49:46gray this question of its uncovering
49:47other CIA operations strictly the
49:49break-in discussion that we had no
49:52involvement and I believe that as part
49:53of this conversation there was this
49:55business about the Mexican lawyer that I
49:57don't recall whether he was specifically
49:59mentioned the Mexican part was mentioned
50:01at that time but mr. gray had on his
50:03mind in some way the idea that there was
50:06some CIA involvement that they were
50:07running into and I was attempting to
50:09reassure him that this was not the case
50:11as best I knew it
50:12CIA involvement in the Watergate
50:13break-in itself or in some way connected
50:16with it honestly did he state the source
50:18of his concern he never did did he
50:22indicate whether or not it was due to
50:24the bureau's own investigation or
50:27whether or not someone else had told him
50:28that I'm outside the bureau I was unable
50:30to tell I simply was surprised that this
50:33kept coming up all right so the next day
50:36you had the conversation with mr.
50:39Walters and mr. Haldeman mr. Ehrlichman
50:42as I understand I'd like to go over
50:44briefly what you stated was discussed in
50:47that conversation I believe you stated
50:49that mr. Haldeman indicated that the
50:53Watergate was being capitalized on that
50:58filed man had been arrested and that
51:01seemed adequate and that sort of thing
51:03well obviously the Watergate
51:05investigation was was the the reason for
51:09the meeting was it not
51:10as to what the investigation might
51:12disclose that was the basis for the
51:14meeting but I can only assume in
51:16hindsight that it wasn't to Thompson
51:18because at the time nobody had
51:20identified to us why we were being
51:21called to the White House there was we
51:23arrived and waited to hear what the
51:24subject of the meeting was when they
51:28stated their concern about possible
51:33Mexican involvement or Mexican and vomer
51:35with the CIA of course they were talking
51:37about the Watergate investigation
51:38turning up other involvement were they
51:41not I assumed this is what they were
51:43talking about yes but as I mentioned a
51:44moment ago and I do want to underline
51:46this I was totally unfamiliar at that
51:49time with what the-- what mexico had to
51:51do with anything
51:54but you had talked to Pat gray the day
51:57before I believe you stated that you
52:00thought that he might have mentioned a
52:02Mexican longer at that time yes sir but
52:05and when the Mexican lawyers name was
52:08mentioned there was never any
52:09implication as to why they were even
52:11asking about him so this was not very
52:14revealing what I'm concerned about is
52:18just the extent to which the Watergate
52:21situation was was actually discussed
52:24because of course I think it'd be fair
52:26to say that some appearances from what
52:28has been reported and some of the
52:30testimony and this forum and others is
52:33that the Watergate investigation was the
52:35reason for the concern and that could
52:37have been a legitimate concern it could
52:38have been a a possible cover-up of the
52:41Watergate investigation itself into the
52:43Watergate matter and this is the area
52:46I'd like to address myself to event and
52:48I'd like to refer to your testimony
52:51before the Committee on Armed Services
52:54Thursday May 17 1973 now I had a little
53:00bit of difficult to getting this myself
53:01last night and this morning I've just
53:03received it and if you like in the
53:06course of my discussion of it to
53:08forrester recess with the permission of
53:10the chairman the committee
53:11where you can can have a copy of it or
53:14copy of certain pages I feel like we can
53:16do that but it's alright with you I'll
53:17go ahead and proceed right now and read
53:19certain portions of that and ask you a
53:21few questions based on them I know the
53:28transcript from which mr. Thompson is
53:30about to read is nominally classified as
53:33secret I take it that there is no
53:37objection on the part of the committee
53:38or any claim on the part of the
53:41committee that it does not have the
53:43authority to permit counsel go ahead and
53:45read that document as it relates to the
53:47mandate for inquiry I understand in the
53:53resolution also from the statement made
53:57as I understand it to the staff
53:59attorneys by the White House attorneys
54:02that they left a question of how does
54:07this kind of determination of the
54:10committee mr. chairman I entirely agree
54:12with you I simply wanted to make sure
54:13that the record reflected effect that is
54:16the committee position that not was
54:18Manning the nominal secret
54:19classification that by reason of our
54:21inherent authority by reason of
54:24communications to us from the chairman
54:32of the committees which took this of the
54:35same committees we took this evidence
54:37also said that as far as they handed
54:39their power they'd consent to the use of
54:41it Thank You mr. towns were mr. Walters
54:50and yourself being a question at the
54:53same time on this occasion were you in
54:55the same room to get that occasion
54:57general waters was sitting on my
54:59and general Cushman was sitting on my
55:01left and we were in the room together
55:03the whole time
55:06let me read if I might and you prefer me
55:10to read other portions that you might
55:12remember go back a little further than I
55:13will but there's a general preliminary
55:19section here and what you stated was not
55:21a very long conversation and he'd
55:25mentioned the Bay of Pigs
55:26as ambassador hams well you could first
55:31of all mr. woolsley let's go back to the
55:32meeting itself for a moment when mr.
55:35Holloman said that it had been decided
55:36that the general should call on mr. gray
55:38did he say are intimated in any way who
55:41had decided to own that course of action
55:44ambassador Helms well you can make an
55:46intimation I'd rather not drawing
55:48information if the Chairman will leave
55:49me of that it was mr. Harlan mr.
55:51elderman two most senior officials with
55:53white house next to president self
55:55giving this instruction I really feel
55:57like now as I did then that it would
55:59have been presumptuous to oppress them
56:00any harder as how they had come up with
56:04this or they'd got an idea who was
56:05behind it mr. woolsley you said mr.
56:09Holloman winch in the Bay of Pigs did he
56:11mention Watergate case itself in the
56:14course of the conversation
56:15ambassador Helms no mr. woolsley he did
56:19not
56:21ambassador Helms no Senator Symington
56:24general Walters you confirm that do you
56:27general Walters yes sir he didn't
56:30mention the water key senator Symington
56:34I heard you volunteer volunteering and
56:37as long as you did I thought it should
56:40be on the record mr. woolsley maybe this
56:43is something that we should get cleared
56:44up but the committee was given a copy of
56:47general Walters affidavit general
56:50Walters he did in the introduction when
56:53he said this case had stirred up a lot
56:55of thing and the opposition is
56:57attempting to exploit it
56:59that was the reference I testified to
57:03previously I believe as we came in he
57:05said the Watergate has stirred up a lot
57:06of things
57:07opposition's attempting to exploit its
57:09general Walters talking and it has been
57:12decided that you will go that was the
57:15inevitable lead-in to the whole
57:17reference Senator Jackson decided that
57:21you would go general office mr. gray and
57:23tell him if he pursues the Mexican part
57:26of the financing of this business will
57:28uncover CIA assets or scheme for moving
57:32money mr. woolsley I should perhaps read
57:35into the record here a few sentences
57:36from general Walters affidavit quote as
57:39I recall it mr. Haldeman said the
57:41Watergate instance was causing trouble
57:43and being exploited by the opposition it
57:47had been decided that the White House
57:49that I would go to the acting FBI
57:51director Dre and tell him now that the
57:54five suspects were arrested further
57:56inquiries into the Mexican aspect of the
57:58matter might jeopardize on the CIA's
57:59activities in this area was there any
58:03discussion in the meeting at all of
58:05Watergate ambassador hams not to the
58:08best of my recollection and I frankly
58:11was hard put at the time to understand
58:13what Mexico was involved with this was
58:17only a week after the break-in I didn't
58:19know why Mexico was being mentioned
58:20never occurred to me that it had
58:23anything to do with the Watergate
58:25burglary Senator Simon general Walter do
58:28you agree with that general longest to
58:29me the whole question was connected by
58:31virtue of the beginning of the thing
58:33when he said Watergate could be opened
58:36as a preliminary as a leading as to why
58:38he wanted me to go
58:39it was obviously a lead end of this but
58:42he didn't go into any discussion of the
58:43Watergate other than what I said in the
58:48beginning and then you go to other
58:52matters mr. that let me see if I've
58:56summarized this correctly the question
58:58was put directly to you first as one
59:01hunter was in the Watergate discussion
59:02and you said there was not I was the way
59:06I recalled it mr. Thompson at the time
59:08since then I've seen general waters
59:11memorandum for
59:11record I've talked with him about this
59:13and we went over again what had occurred
59:15and I frankly at that point had
59:17forgotten this lead into the
59:19conversation after all I'd been away for
59:22some time I've been involved with other
59:23things and if my memory was less than
59:26perfect at that time it was less than
59:27perfect
59:28there was no I had no intention of
59:30jiggery-pokery or anything else in
1:00:03general yes he didn't mention the water
1:00:06view and then mr. Wallace said this is
1:00:09something we should clear up and he
1:00:11refers to general Walters affidavit at
1:00:13that time which he had previously
1:00:14submitted in which he mentioned these
1:00:16these things mr Thomson what I'm
1:00:18referring to and what I saw subsequently
1:00:20was a memorandum for the record which I
1:00:22believe is in the custody of the
1:00:24committee which was written several days
1:00:27after this 23 June espresso memorandum
1:00:31dated June 28 1970 I think that's
1:00:33correct and it was that memorandum which
1:00:35I subsequently saw which I had not seen
1:00:38at the time that I was testifying
1:00:40I talked to general Walters about it I
1:00:42had no reason to at that point to
1:00:44question general Walters memorandum he
1:00:47has an excellent ability to recall as
1:00:50you will probably are aware he's an
1:00:52excellent linguist and anybody that can
1:00:55speak five or six languages with the
1:00:57ability that he can and certainly has
1:00:59the mental equipment to recall something
1:01:02for five days after the event took place
1:01:05and I've obviously talked to him about
1:01:09this and I had clearly forgotten that
1:01:12introductory aspect of the sounds are
1:01:14you are you basing your testimony now
1:01:16your own memory or upon mr. Walters
1:01:20memory I mean you've accounted your
1:01:25faith in his memory which I'm sure is
1:01:27probably well-placed but I would think
1:01:33that this would be a rather significant
1:01:35matter if Haldeman and Ehrlichman has
1:01:37been widely reported from the basis of
1:01:40this memorandum when she just referred
1:01:41to I suppose
1:01:43came in and says five people have been
1:01:45arrested and that ought to be enough and
1:01:47that's the lead-in to just as to how the
1:01:49CIA or the FBI she conductance
1:01:52investigation and the basis of CIA
1:01:54contact with FBI would think that this
1:01:56was something that that that you would
1:02:00remember so I'm really trying to
1:02:02determine whether your testimony is
1:02:04based upon your own independent
1:02:06recollection or just after having read
1:02:09this memorandum and your faith in
1:02:11general Walters recollections well
1:02:13that's the combination of the two mr.
1:02:15Thompson because when he jogged my
1:02:16memory and we went back over the meeting
1:02:18together then I did recall these other
1:02:21remarks having been made well I charge a
1:02:23memory here and the testimony before the
1:02:27committee also after remember the
1:02:32committee of naming raised
1:02:33of affidavit of the memorandum general
1:02:36walters said this that he did in the
1:02:39introduction when he said referring to
1:02:41the watergate mentioning to the
1:02:42watergate he did in the introduction
1:02:45when he said this case has stirred up a
1:02:47lot of things and the opposition is
1:02:50attempting to exploit it
1:02:51I believe Europe testimony here today
1:02:53was attempting to capitalize on that was
1:02:57the reference that testified to
1:02:59previously I believe I assume he's
1:03:01referring to his affidavit or a
1:03:02memorandum I believe as we came in he
1:03:06said the Watergate has stirred up a lot
1:03:07of things but opposition is attempting
1:03:09to exploit it it had been decided that
1:03:12you will go that was inevitable lead-in
1:03:15mister mr. Walker mr. woolsley I should
1:03:20perhaps reading the record a few
1:03:21sentences of general Walters affidavit
1:03:23and then at that time they read into the
1:03:25record a few sentences of General Motors
1:03:27affidavit which you just referred to
1:03:29which is decided by the White House I
1:03:40should go to acting director FBI agree
1:03:42and at five suspects were arrested
1:03:44further inquires and the Mexican aspect
1:03:47of the matter might jeopardize don't see
1:03:49any activities and another question is
1:03:51goodbye
1:03:53was there any discussion in the meeting
1:03:55all of Watergate ambassador Helms not to
1:03:58the best of my recollection all I didn't
1:04:00recall it at that time but when I went
1:04:03over this with general Walters and we
1:04:04tried to piece this meeting together
1:04:06then that I did recall if these matters
1:04:10had been alluded to did it occur to you
1:04:13or has it affected you that consciously
1:04:16or subconsciously the fact that it could
1:04:18be very least to some extent
1:04:21embarrassing for general Walters if you
1:04:25testified contrary to to him did you
1:04:27discuss that possibility with him when
1:04:29you went over these matters no because I
1:04:31saw him just a moment before we actually
1:04:33went into the room of course it was
1:04:37after you got into the room before you
1:04:38realized that you had any it was
1:04:41unfinished in your testimony was it not
1:04:43that's right and you were in the room
1:04:45before you first realized what this
1:04:48memorandum said were you not in the
1:04:52memorandum in fact as a matter of fact
1:04:55that memorandum was not on the table at
1:04:57that time as I recall it there was an
1:04:59affidavit that I believe that those
1:05:01memoranda were submitted subsequently
1:05:03the committee I may be wrong the and and
1:05:08comparing your testimony today with what
1:05:10his memorandum says a couple of things
1:05:13do strike me his memorandum dated June
1:05:1728 says that June twenty thirty thirteen
1:05:23hundred on request I called the director
1:05:25Helms on John Eric when Robert Haldeman
1:05:29in Devlin's office in the White House
1:05:30Haldeman said that the bugging affair at
1:05:32the Democratic National Committee
1:05:33headquarters of Watergate apartments had
1:05:35made a lot of noise and that the
1:05:37Democrats are trying to maximize on it
1:05:40then down here he says since
1:05:46since five suspects have been arrested
1:05:48this should be sufficient let me ask you
1:05:50a few other things about this memorandum
1:05:52while while we're on it mr. towns he
1:05:58states in here also that Holloman said
1:06:04the whole affair was getting
1:06:05embarrassing and it was the president's
1:06:06wish that Walters call Andre and
1:06:10suggested him that since five suspects
1:06:12have been arrested this should be
1:06:13sufficient it was not advantageous to
1:06:16have the inquiry pushed comma
1:06:18especially in Mexico do you call the
1:06:21president's name being mentioned no I'd
1:06:23still don't agree with the general
1:06:25Walters about that I don't recall it
1:06:27having been put that way
1:06:33director Hamm said again reading from
1:06:36the Walters memorandum yet talked agree
1:06:39on the previous day may plain to him the
1:06:42agency was not behind the matter and it
1:06:44was not connected with it none of the
1:06:46suspects none of the suspects was
1:06:49working for it nor had worked for the
1:06:53agency in the last two years yet told
1:06:56ray that none of the investigators was
1:07:00touching any covert projects of the
1:07:03agency current or ongoing did you tell
1:07:07mr. gray that it was touching none of
1:07:10the covert projects of the agency or did
1:07:12you have any basis for saying that at
1:07:14that time I was unaware of any covert
1:07:16projects of the agency that had been
1:07:18touched on up to that time did you did
1:07:21you tell ray that if you recall or did
1:07:23you just simply tell him the CIA was not
1:07:25involved in the Watergate breaking I
1:07:27told him what CIA was not involved in
1:07:28the Watergate break-in I do not recall
1:07:31whether I told him that it did not thus
1:07:33far run and then he CIA covert projects
1:07:37did you tell him that none of the
1:07:39suspects was working for the CIA nor had
1:07:42worked for these and last
1:07:44yes then at least one of the suspects
1:07:50had worked for the FBI previous to
1:07:54afford CIA freeze for the last two years
1:07:56is that who was that well I'm asking you
1:08:00you said none of them had worked with
1:08:02the CIA within the last two years I
1:08:04assumed that before that one at least
1:08:05one of them had well mr. McCord had been
1:08:08an employee of the CIA for some 20 years
1:08:10before he retired Mr Hunt had worked
1:08:13there at least 15 maybe more and a
1:08:16couple of the Cubans had at one time had
1:08:18the contractual relationship with the
1:08:21agency you know which two Cubans
1:08:25do you mind giving me the names I'm not
1:08:28a computer and I would be Barker perhaps
1:08:33mr. Barker Barker I think had a
1:08:35relationship back in the early 60s I
1:08:37think it Sturgess another individual I
1:08:41think he at one time it had some
1:08:43connection of Artie Martinez had been on
1:08:46a sort of a retainer to report on
1:08:50individuals who came in from Cuba as to
1:08:54whether they'd be worth interrogating or
1:08:56interviewing or not in Florida and he'd
1:08:58been on that retainer of about $100 a
1:09:01month on the understanding that he would
1:09:05report him from time to time when he had
1:09:07something to report when I found out
1:09:09that he was still on the and I had this
1:09:13connection with the agency at the time
1:09:15of this break-in he was cut off was it
1:09:20cut off right after we had discovered
1:09:23that he was involved in the break-in
1:09:26you mean Martinez was on retainer by the
1:09:29CIA at the time of the break-in that's
1:09:33right but in Florida for the purposes
1:09:38I've identified
1:09:41beg your pardon in Florida I didn't
1:09:44understand that last statement mr.
1:09:48Martinez was resident in Florida as far
1:09:53as the agency knew because he lived in
1:09:57Florida and because he was a Cuban exile
1:09:59he was kept on a loose arrangement
1:10:02whereby he would report to the agency
1:10:05from time to time Cubans who got out of
1:10:08Cuba
1:10:09either legally or illegally whom he
1:10:11thought might have some information that
1:10:13would be useful to the United States
1:10:14government and then he would report in
1:10:16and give the name of this individual
1:10:19when was he taken off retainer by the
1:10:23CIA he went on when it was ascertained
1:10:26that he was involved in the break-in he
1:10:29was taken off right then when was it
1:10:31ascertained that he was involved in the
1:10:32break-in well I assume and then when his
1:10:35name was given to us by the FBI which
1:10:40was the Imagine within 24 hours or 48
1:10:43hours or 72 hours after the break is how
1:10:46was this done did you do the CIA
1:10:49communicate when mr. Martinez was there
1:10:52any paperwork involved
1:10:53I don't recall the precise details of
1:10:56the way it was done there are many
1:10:57people in the agency you can tell you it
1:10:59may even be in your records already the
1:11:01agency has been most cooperative in
1:11:02turning over lots of written material
1:11:05about these various matters and I
1:11:07imagine it's in there someplace I just
1:11:08don't remember well it seems to me mr.
1:11:13Helms that there might well have been
1:11:15concerned as to the role of the FBI or
1:11:18the CIA by all parties involved at this
1:11:23particular time
1:11:24right after the break-in in June of 72
1:11:26if in fact one of the persons who had
1:11:29broken in was at that time on a retainer
1:11:31by the CA did you know at the time of
1:11:35your conversation with mr. Halden mr.
1:11:37Arrington on the 23rd that mr. Martinez
1:11:40was in fact on retainer
1:11:41I don't recall I imagine I may have but
1:11:45that doesn't mean that the CIA was
1:11:46involved in the burglary no sir no sir I
1:11:49mean I don't think you ought to put
1:11:50words in my mouth
1:11:51I didn't think I was the issue seems to
1:11:55be whether or not there was a legitimate
1:11:57concern with regard to either at that
1:12:01time whether the CIA was involved in the
1:12:03burglary or whether or not other covert
1:12:07CIA activities might be exposed or
1:12:09whether or not Haldeman and Ehrlichman
1:12:11quite frankly were using this as an
1:12:13excuse to cover up the Watergate
1:12:15investigation which which also quite
1:12:18frankly has been widely in plaid to say
1:12:22the least now that's what I'm trying to
1:12:24get at now you've already mentioned the
1:12:27fact that you talked to Patrick gray and
1:12:29there was some talk besides the people
1:12:32involved in the Watergate break-in
1:12:34McCord was a former CIA agent hunt was a
1:12:37former CIA agent Martinez was on
1:12:41retainer at the time of the break-in
1:12:42Sturgess form a contact form employee of
1:12:47the CIA you know also in Mexico as I
1:12:50understand there was some talk about an
1:12:52attorney down there as being a CIA
1:12:54contact I suppose would be the correct
1:12:57way to put that would it not that was
1:13:00what we were asked if we had any
1:13:01connection with him you talk to mr. gray
1:13:05I believe on June 27 about a mr. Gary
1:13:09old and they did you know the FBI had
1:13:12asked us if this Mexican lawyer had any
1:13:14connection with the agency we conducted
1:13:17an investigation to ascertain whether or
1:13:20not he had
1:13:21and I reported to mr. gray maybe we had
1:13:23no connection with the agency we knew
1:13:25nothing about it but what I'm trying to
1:13:29get at is the 27th
1:13:31four days after this meeting there was
1:13:34still some discussion mr. four there are
1:13:36knives there was a problem with mr. of
1:13:39gear Hill as if my notes are correct mr.
1:13:43gray called you about this matter at
1:13:4411:30 a.m. and you could not or did not
1:13:51respond immediately and you returned mr.
1:13:53gray is called at 3:40 that afternoon
1:13:55and said that to see how he did not in
1:13:58fact have any interest in mr. Garre oh
1:14:00is that mr. recollection but I want to
1:14:03point out mr. Thompson cases any
1:14:05question in your mind that from the
1:14:07whenever we were initially asked about
1:14:10this Mexican lawyer it would have taken
1:14:12a few days to ascertain this to be sure
1:14:15about it we have two check files and
1:14:18records and we'd have to check with
1:14:19people in Mexico and this is not
1:14:21something that would happen from one
1:14:23minute to the next but I don't recall
1:14:25when the first inquiry was made to us
1:14:27about a man in Doeg area I just simply
1:14:30know from the record since I've
1:14:31consulted the record on this point that
1:14:34I did report this back to mr. gray that
1:14:37we had no connection with him the agency
1:14:39had no connection with him on the 27th
1:14:41of June I believe you have documents
1:14:43there in my own handwriting attesting to
1:14:45this what mr. towns just showed in order
1:14:52that we're as clear as we can be on this
1:14:54I would like to ask you one more time
1:14:57whether to the best of your independent
1:15:02recollection the Talman did say that
1:15:06opposition was capitalizing on the
1:15:09Watergate and fireman had been arrested
1:15:11and that was adequate I can't vouch for
1:15:14those exact words but as I reconstructed
1:15:17this meeting with general Walters and
1:15:19went over with there was some sort of
1:15:21our lead in our reference at the
1:15:22beginning of the Congress
1:15:23to this burglary and it was after you're
1:15:27sitting there in the same room with
1:15:29general Walters and hearing his
1:15:32testimony that it did in fact occur and
1:15:35it was after your reading his memorandum
1:15:37where he stated that it did in fact
1:15:39occur before you first mentioned
1:15:42yourself that you recall that it did in
1:15:44fact occur that is that correct that's
1:15:47relatively yeah I'm sure that's good
1:15:49enough anyway sentiment are you just
1:16:02have two questions I'm chairman thank
1:16:04you did you know James McCord personally
1:16:13yes sentiment I how long had you known
1:16:16him well it's hard to tell you when I
1:16:20might have first met him but I saw him
1:16:23from time to time during let's say the
1:16:26time that I was director of the agency
1:16:27during those six and a half years I
1:16:30recall is having a bit of my office on
1:16:32two or three occasions on various
1:16:34matters what kind of a man was he he had
1:16:37a good reputation and what was his
1:16:40reputation for veracity I have never had
1:16:47any cause to question mr. mccords
1:16:49reputation for veracity you say that his
1:16:53reputation as a human being as a man as
1:16:55an employee was very good yes it was he
1:16:58left with a a good record behind him and
1:17:01what can you say about Mr Hunt did you
1:17:04know him yes I did know it what was his
1:17:06reputation
1:17:08well mr. hunt was at us well he had a
1:17:17a good reputation there were some
1:17:19questions at various times during his
1:17:22employment about how well he had carried
1:17:24out certain assignments but there was
1:17:25nothing but Millian about this was just
1:17:27a question of his effectiveness mr. hunt
1:17:31was a bit of a romantic he used to write
1:17:33books in his spare time and I think
1:17:38there was a tendency sometimes him to
1:17:40get a little bit carried away with some
1:17:42of the things he was involved in but
1:17:44he'd never done anything illegal or
1:17:45nefarious or anybody was aware of and
1:17:48when he left the agency he left a record
1:17:50a decent record behind him how would you
1:17:52say about his reputation for veracity
1:18:01well I've said sir that he was romantic
1:18:04I think that I just don't have any way
1:18:09of being able to answer that I would
1:18:11have assumed that in the matters of
1:18:13importance he would tell the truth now
1:18:16since you spent so much time as director
1:18:19of CIA the agency what recommendations
1:18:24can you make to this committee
1:18:26concerning new legislation to help
1:18:29prevent the misuse of the Central
1:18:32Intelligence Agency for political or
1:18:34other purposes other than the assigned
1:18:36purposes delineate it in the act we send
1:18:40them on time I don't know how one
1:18:41legislates these matters I've never
1:18:45understood how morality and the proper
1:18:47conduct and decency can be legislated
1:18:50about the in Washington over the years
1:18:56there have been many occasions when
1:18:59various people have tried to manipulate
1:19:01some organization or another in an
1:19:03improper way this is not new to us we
1:19:07read about it in the papers constantly
1:19:09but how you legislate about this I swear
1:19:11to you sir I don't know well would you
1:19:14say that your experience with respect to
1:19:17this episode there was an attempt by
1:19:21some people to manipulate the agency and
1:19:24its facilities there was no question
1:19:26that the seemed to be an effort to use
1:19:27it in quotes quote use it unquote
1:19:31Thank You mr. chairman
1:19:49the time from January at the 20th 1969
1:19:55at the spring of 72 January the 20th
1:19:581969 yes I just went trying to fix this
1:20:01right from well basically from 69 for
1:20:03the beginning of 16 inauguration day on
1:20:06to the spring of 1972 were there
1:20:10occasions when you were contacted by
1:20:12either the Attorney General John
1:20:13Mitchell or the Deputy Attorney General
1:20:15Robert mardian well I used to see mr.
1:20:19Mitchell quite frequently because mr.
1:20:21Mitchell had duties giving him by the
1:20:25president that had nothing whatever to
1:20:29do with the conduct of the affairs of
1:20:31the Department of Justice and so I saw
1:20:33him with some regularity in meetings in
1:20:36his office on a variety of matters
1:20:40having to do with the affairs of the
1:20:42agency and with our various operations
1:20:46were there any times when in these
1:20:51contacts with either mr. Mitchell I
1:20:53don't recall your having said whether or
1:20:56not you'd ever met mr. Marty and not I
1:20:57did meet him I bet he one day mr.
1:20:59Mitchell's office as a matter of fact
1:21:01were there any contacts that you had
1:21:06with either Messrs Marty and or Mitchell
1:21:09where you were asked to bring the CIA
1:21:12into investigations of a domestic nature
1:21:15I don't recall any such meetings I know
1:21:22that the time that I mentioned that I
1:21:26met mr. Moore
1:21:27in mr. Mitchell's office it's my
1:21:29recollection that the reason he was
1:21:31there was that he'd been put in charge
1:21:32of an internal security operation or the
1:21:35division of the Justice Department and
1:21:37that he was going to get together a
1:21:39group of individuals in the various
1:21:41intelligence organizations to sit with
1:21:43him in an effort to make up some reports
1:21:48and analyses and so forth about domestic
1:21:52unrest and things of that kind but it
1:21:55was always made very clear by me and I
1:21:57never was challenged by mr. Mitchell
1:21:59that anything that we contributed to
1:22:02these meetings had to be as a result of
1:22:04our work overseas of material we
1:22:07developed there which might have some
1:22:09bearing on things in the United States
1:22:12as for example the Fetty and the
1:22:15terrorists we've been working on them
1:22:18we've been working on certain people
1:22:20involved in drug smuggling and a variety
1:22:26of things but at no time in other words
1:22:33or there wasn't any sort of a pattern of
1:22:37requests of trying to bring the CIA into
1:22:41matters that you would consider properly
1:22:42outside the scope of the CIA I'm not
1:22:45questioning your reaction at all I don't
1:22:48recall them senator wicker
1:23:00do you recall discussing with the
1:23:04committee staff that you were being
1:23:06pushed to enter the domestic
1:23:07investigation area this committee staff
1:23:11yes well at various times questions have
1:23:17come up and well I remember one time
1:23:20there was a discussion and with some of
1:23:24these the president's foreign
1:23:26intelligence advisory board about
1:23:28domestic operations and so forth and
1:23:30they didn't think they were going
1:23:31satisfactorily and could the agency make
1:23:33a contribution to this and I pointed out
1:23:36to them very quickly it could not there
1:23:37was no way but this was a matter that
1:23:40kept coming up in the context of feelers
1:23:43how can we do a better job isn't there
1:23:45somebody else that can take on some of
1:23:47these things if the FBI isn't doing them
1:23:49as well as they should
1:23:50are there no other facilities but it was
1:23:52in that context it was not a direct
1:23:54pressure on me go do it did you ever
1:24:01consider resigning your position as
1:24:04director of the CIA because of these
1:24:05types of feelers or indications no
1:24:10senator Wiker I don't mean to be
1:24:12immodest but I felt that I understood
1:24:16about these matters and these D
1:24:17limitations and I thought I could take
1:24:19care of the agency better if I stayed
1:24:21where I was I've gathered from your
1:24:25statement that you have a great pride in
1:24:27the agency I do sir and the only point
1:24:32that I'm trying to bring out it let me
1:24:34just relate to you to your last answer
1:24:36did you have any concern that if you
1:24:40left the agency as its director that it
1:24:45might get into these other types of
1:24:47areas well I don't know that my thinking
1:24:50ever went quite that far but because I
1:24:53had no
1:24:54to suppose that my successor would be a
1:24:57a man of inadequate caliber but you felt
1:25:01that but I've been around a long time
1:25:03and I thought I understood pretty well
1:25:05what we were supposed to do and where
1:25:06we're not supposed to do and if there
1:25:08are any sins the agency is committed
1:25:10they're on my shoulders I'm not pawning
1:25:12them off on anybody else
1:25:14I knew the ground rules I have know the
1:25:17laws and all the rest of it and I did
1:25:19the best I could to keep the agency free
1:25:21and clear and sailing straight and I
1:25:25gather you felt you felt that you
1:25:27yourself felt that it would do just that
1:25:31as long as you were excuse the
1:25:34expression at the helm in your in your
1:25:43meeting with mr. Holloman was direct and
1:25:48general Walters and was general Cushman
1:25:53there at that meeting also the 23rd the
1:25:55meeting of the toilet yes sir as I
1:25:56recall it we were asked to come together
1:25:58by Senator Symington and general Cushman
1:26:03was sitting on my left in general
1:26:04Walters was sitting on my right and we
1:26:07were sitting right together at the table
1:26:09why wouldn't such a request as mr.
1:26:15Haldeman was making and be made to you
1:26:17you were the director of the CIA and the
1:26:21request that was being made was having
1:26:24to do with the Acting Director of the
1:26:26FBI so why not talk to you did you were
1:26:31you being talked around here I I'd like
1:26:33to get just that what I was being talked
1:26:35to ran and this I don't know exactly in
1:26:40what form this came up but I was assured
1:26:43that it has been decided the general
1:26:45waters was to do that
1:26:46and obviously I wondered at the time as
1:26:49to why did you express any you'd make
1:26:54any comment at the time saying that he
1:26:58shouldn't do it that I should do it no
1:27:00that you know turning mr. Hallman was
1:27:04tall if you've got anything to say to my
1:27:06agency would you please say it to me
1:27:07rather than those are my subordinates
1:27:10well I did not pronounce right now we
1:27:12were sitting right there together the
1:27:13four of us and it was being made so
1:27:16clear that this was the way it was going
1:27:17to be done and had to be done there they
1:27:19wanted that then that way
1:27:29I have no further questions at this time
1:27:30is chairman
1:27:35Senta in no way thank you very much mr.
1:27:39chairman mr. chairman mr. vice chairman
1:27:41before proceeding I'd like to thank both
1:27:43of you for your very generous remarks
1:27:45this morning if I may I'd like to take
1:27:48the liberty of thanking you in Hawaiian
1:27:50we would say Mahalo and aloha which
1:27:52means thank you very much and I love you
1:27:55both mr. ambassador
1:28:01you've indicated that as director of the
1:28:04CIA you have the statutory
1:28:07responsibility for quote the protection
1:28:10of intelligence sources and methods come
1:28:13on from unauthorized disclosure said
1:28:15Renu he is the rest of the things yes
1:28:17sir
1:28:18now during the period from June of 71
1:28:20until your new assignment in Iran did
1:28:25you have occasion to report on matters
1:28:27falling under that category to the
1:28:30President of the United States no sir I
1:28:33did not report any matters of that kind
1:28:35directly because in the United States we
1:28:39had a subcommittee of the United States
1:28:44intelligence board charged with security
1:28:47this involved the system of clearances
1:28:51and how the community would work
1:28:53together in classifying documents and
1:28:55matters of this kind when there were
1:28:58leaks which seemed to be unauthorized
1:29:00particularly of material that was in
1:29:03intelligence channels the matter was
1:29:06referred to this use of security
1:29:08subcommittee to see if any information
1:29:11could be ascertained as to what agency
1:29:13of government had leaked the information
1:29:15or what individual and what agency of
1:29:17government had given this information
1:29:19out these investigations usually aborted
1:29:23efforts were made through the security
1:29:25officers of the other agencies to find
1:29:26out who might have done these things but
1:29:28I don't remember any of them coming to
1:29:30any successful conclusion
1:29:31we had no investigative staff for this
1:29:34we had no rights to investigate in the
1:29:37State Department for example
1:29:38the Department of Defense we simply
1:29:41counted on their people to contribute to
1:29:43this effort but we had very poor results
1:29:47and one of the reasons that I've felt
1:29:50burdened by this charge and the statute
1:29:53over the years is that it gave me a
1:29:55responsibility which I had no devices
1:29:57for carrying out were these discussions
1:30:00ever held in the Oval Office or the
1:30:03Cabinet Room or the president's
1:30:05executive office building
1:30:07we're not the discussions on matters
1:30:10having to do with the use of
1:30:12subcommittee I'm sure that at various
1:30:14times and those in the four years and
1:30:17since January in the 20th 1969 there
1:30:22were discussions about leaks I remember
1:30:24one early in the administration which
1:30:26took place in the Oval Office there were
1:30:28several cabinet members there and I
1:30:30remember I was there myself were you
1:30:34aware that these conversations may have
1:30:36been taped I was not mr. Butterfield has
1:30:40testified that these conversations were
1:30:44being taped
1:30:45do you think as director of the CIA that
1:30:48is just - no responsibility to get all
1:30:51of these tapes there would be my
1:30:54statutory responsibility directors today
1:30:58in order not to compromise the CIA
1:31:03frankly sir wouldn't have occurred to me
1:31:05and I didn't know that there any tapes
1:31:08in existence while I was director and
1:31:10since then I really hadn't thought about
1:31:11it if you knew that these were being
1:31:15taped do you think it would be the
1:31:18statutory responsibility under the
1:31:20National Security Act for the director
1:31:22of the CIA to call upon the White House
1:31:26to receive those tapes well sir others
1:31:30that otherwise it might compromise the
1:31:32sources and methods of the CIA I
1:31:37wouldn't have thought so so during NUI
1:31:40because it's that we were supposed to
1:31:42protect them against unauthorized
1:31:43disclosure and
1:31:45Russians with the president and is the
1:31:47duly you cleared the cabinet ministers
1:31:49would not constitute unauthorized
1:31:51disclosure a few days ago we have
1:31:53testimony indicating that three of these
1:31:57tapes were placed into the hands of a
1:31:59private citizen kept away from the
1:32:02official custodian for 48 hours
1:32:06would you consider that proper I would
1:32:10not consider that proper I thank you
1:32:13very much sir seventh attorney mr.
1:32:23ambassador what will Hunts areas of of
1:32:26work at the CIA so de gurney he was with
1:32:33the agency for many years and had a
1:32:36variety of assignments you might pull
1:32:38that Michael I'm sorry I didn't move it
1:32:40over I had a variety of assignments and
1:32:44I honestly think it would be putting my
1:32:46memory to too much of a test to remember
1:32:48what they all were I remember there was
1:32:49one that he had some assignment in
1:32:51connection with the operations leading
1:32:53up to the so-called Bay of Pigs but this
1:32:56is readily available in the agency you
1:32:58could get his personnel record and then
1:33:00it would be accurate well I'm not
1:33:02interested in a detailed account I
1:33:04wanted of his areas were in the sort of
1:33:07work that he was doing on June 17th it
1:33:15would be hard for me to recall I don't
1:33:17but I I just don't remember
1:33:24how often does the CIA help out former
1:33:29employees and the new loan of equipment
1:33:32as in the case of mr. hunt well I can
1:33:37only say senator journey that this was
1:33:39an extraordinary exception and it was
1:33:42done because we had been asked to do it
1:33:44by the White House has it ever been done
1:33:46before do you know it not to my
1:33:49knowledge
1:33:52well has it do you think it has been
1:33:55done before without your knowledge this
1:33:58is always possible senator gurney it's a
1:34:00large organization I would hope not but
1:34:02I can't say that I've never been done no
1:34:04of course at least no other CIA person
1:34:08has said to you that yes we did this on
1:34:11some other occasion was so and so I
1:34:13don't recall that having been said to me
1:34:16since this was such an unusual request
1:34:19why did the CIA go ahead and cooperate
1:34:23with Condon
1:34:24well general Cushman had already
1:34:26authorized this as I understood at the
1:34:29time on the basis of mr. Ehrlichman
1:34:31having asked that the agency help at
1:34:35that time as I recall it he was simple
1:34:40Cushman was simply told that this was
1:34:41for him to conduct an interview we had
1:34:44no way of knowing was an interview in
1:34:46the United States or an interview
1:34:47overseas had already been done by the
1:34:49time I learned about it and the what
1:34:55what was your reaction when Cushman told
1:34:58you well I was not pleased about it
1:35:01because I didn't quite understand why it
1:35:03was that he couldn't have acquired these
1:35:05things someplace else
1:35:06well I must say that same thought occurs
1:35:09to me if these were routine items of
1:35:15apparatus the White House certainly
1:35:17would have resources enough to get those
1:35:20themselves I would have thought so
1:35:23senator gurney I have learned
1:35:25I learned when I came back here in May
1:35:28that the rest of other things given to
1:35:31him such as a voice change or something
1:35:33and I believe a week has become almost
1:35:36legendary in this whole matter but I
1:35:38don't recall anything about the wig at
1:35:39the time but I don't question that it
1:35:41was done did general Cushman ever ask
1:35:44him now mr. hunt what do you want these
1:35:46things for what are you gonna use them
1:35:47for what general Cushman told me as I
1:35:51recall it was that he was this for a
1:35:53one-time interview the general Cushman
1:35:55can certainly attest to these things for
1:35:56himself but he didn't tell anything to
1:35:58you and at that time I think it's only
1:36:02fair to remember that nobody had ever
1:36:04suggested that anybody was going to do
1:36:06anything illegal or improper I
1:36:08understand but it's such an unusual
1:36:10inquest I'm really surprised that no one
1:36:13had a little more curiosity about what
1:36:16was going to be done well it was a very
1:36:19high-level White House official asking
1:36:21for this help and we tried to help when
1:36:23it didn't seem to was going to do
1:36:26anybody any great harm I guess probably
1:36:33your answer would be the same to mr.
1:36:36Young's request about the profile as
1:36:38I've genuine regrets about being
1:36:40pressured into that on Monday morning
1:36:43there are a lot of football games they
1:36:45played again might have been done played
1:36:47differently and I'm you know I'm not
1:36:49proud of that one
1:36:55there were of course these conversations
1:36:58with Haldeman and Ehrlichman which you
1:37:03have described and mr. Wallas I guess
1:37:05had others that he reported to you Bob
1:37:07and then the conversations with mr. gray
1:37:11and then of course the conversations
1:37:15with mr. Dean when he was pressing for
1:37:18things like bail money and and salaries
1:37:21while people might be in prison did it
1:37:25ever occur to anybody to go to the
1:37:27president United States about this time
1:37:29and advised him of these very unusual
1:37:31things that were going on in the White
1:37:33House well sir my preoccupation at that
1:37:37time and all through these months was to
1:37:41keep the agency at a distance from this
1:37:43whole problem and when I saw I've
1:37:46realized that these feelers were being
1:37:49made there was never a proposal made it
1:37:51was never said that will you do this it
1:37:53was a suppository but you know it would
1:37:56it be possible is this something that
1:37:57could happen and so forth and since we
1:38:00had stood firm it seemed to me that that
1:38:02was adequate under the circumstances
1:38:05well I certainly command you for that
1:38:08and you you did do the right thing and
1:38:11keeping the agency out of it
1:38:19in the phone call with with mr. gray
1:38:22which you had did you sink in this phone
1:38:32conversation that he was trying to
1:38:34involve the CIA in anyway I didn't have
1:38:39that sensation senator gertie the
1:38:41sensation I had was I couldn't quite
1:38:42understand why it was that he kept
1:38:45thinking that the CIA was somehow
1:38:47involved now what what generated this on
1:38:50his part I don't know to this day quite
1:38:52honestly but it seems strange that he
1:38:54should get well we seem to be running
1:38:56into some CIA involvement and I couldn't
1:38:58understand what he was talking about or
1:39:00how he knew this because I couldn't see
1:39:02any involvement I couldn't find any
1:39:04involvement and what motivated this I
1:39:08don't know and I honestly don't know
1:39:10even now one one final question mr.
1:39:17Thompson went over this with you but I'm
1:39:21asking another question that of course
1:39:24is this business of whether Haldeman and
1:39:27Ehrlichman were making their requests or
1:39:29mr. Dean for that matter at the request
1:39:34of the president United States and I
1:39:36don't want to go over that testimony
1:39:38again I've heard it but let me ask you
1:39:40this in in all of these transactions
1:39:44between you and these people and Walters
1:39:46and these people that were lady reported
1:39:50to you did you get any idea at all that
1:39:53President Nixon was involved and any
1:39:55cover-up here and wanting to use the CIA
1:39:58in the cover-up President Nixon was not
1:40:01put forward by any of these people in
1:40:04their discussions they were conducting
1:40:05them on their own as far as I was aware
1:40:07now what implicit in this was the fact
1:40:10that I was talking to the president's
1:40:11chief of staff at what conversations
1:40:14he'd rather had with the president he
1:40:16never said and but he was such a senior
1:40:20official that I had to assume that this
1:40:23was something that the
1:40:25they want it done Thank You mr.
1:40:30ambassador that's all senator talmadge
1:40:35mr. ambassador you've had long
1:40:38distinguished career both as a member of
1:40:43the CIA for many years its director for
1:40:47more than six years and now as a
1:40:50distinguished ambassador representing
1:40:52the government of the United States
1:40:54would you tell us why you left is
1:40:57director the Central Intelligence Agency
1:41:01I had a conversation with the president
1:41:05after the election I believe it was on
1:41:07November the 20th at Camp David and we
1:41:13had we talked about the my future and he
1:41:21indicated that he wanted to make a
1:41:23change
1:41:24and this was in the context of making a
1:41:28lot of changes in the administration I
1:41:31was at that time pushing 60 and about to
1:41:34come to what we had in the agency as the
1:41:37regular retirement age this is not a
1:41:39statutory thing but I had a policy in
1:41:41the agency that when officials got to be
1:41:4460 that they retired and this therefore
1:41:47seemed a good time to do this that is
1:41:56why I left did not leave on your own
1:41:58initiative then I did not submit my
1:42:01resignation in the form of obviously the
1:42:05president always has your resignation
1:42:06you do serve at the pleasure of the
1:42:08president for the time being that's what
1:42:10the Commission says
1:42:14this was a mutually arrived at
1:42:16arrangement you didn't have any
1:42:18impression that you have been pushed out
1:42:21well it wasn't put to me that way anyway
1:42:24when the president makes the suggestion
1:42:27you don't have to determine whether
1:42:28you've been pushed shove the lid would
1:42:34that be would that be an affirmative
1:42:36answer thank you sir did the White House
1:42:41contact you for reference when they
1:42:43implored mr. hunt no sir you think that
1:42:47was strange to employ an ex
1:42:49representative of the CIA without
1:42:52checking on his credentials with the
1:42:54director of that agency I did senator in
1:42:57fact I went to some trouble at the time
1:42:59to see if anybody else in the agency had
1:43:01been checked with other than me and I
1:43:03always had they gone to the personnel
1:43:04officer had they gone to the Security
1:43:06office and I established that the no
1:43:08contact made with the agency anywhere of
1:43:11understand no contact whatever now what
1:43:15was your reaction when mr. young came to
1:43:18you in the summer of 1971 and informed
1:43:24you that the president's assistant mr.
1:43:27Ehrlichman had assigned him to lead a
1:43:30White House investigation of security
1:43:33leaks were you surprised that that was
1:43:36being handled outside the FBI
1:43:43I suppose that I was senator talmadge
1:43:47but there had been so much talk about
1:43:49leaks and so much concern about them in
1:43:54this particular era that I suppose that
1:43:56what would have been normal surprise was
1:43:58somewhat dulled by this fact that maybe
1:44:02they weren't getting very far and
1:44:04establishing how these leaks had
1:44:05occurred this was a somewhat of an extra
1:44:07effort to get into this I must say I
1:44:11want to say to you now that I never
1:44:12dreamed that this was going to lead to a
1:44:15kind of an activist role I thought this
1:44:18was pulling the material together and
1:44:20doing those things which for years had
1:44:23been done of the government this is not
1:44:25the first president who's been concerned
1:44:27about leaks that's been a kind of an
1:44:29endemic and chronic concern in the White
1:44:33House ever since I can remember
1:44:34didn't J Edgar Hoover have a reputation
1:44:37for running a pretty tight ship he did
1:44:40and an efficient organization yes sir
1:44:42and anything related into domestic
1:44:45activity the FBI normally handled they
1:44:48did insist and you insisted on handling
1:44:51the foreign activity yes sir
1:44:53and you had a perfectly valid agreement
1:44:56between the two of you as to who would
1:44:58encroach on what activities are not
1:45:01encroach on them did you not we did
1:45:04senator it worked very well
1:45:05yes sir you're thinking a nice new
1:45:07language yes sir now when they requested
1:45:11a view that you do this psychological
1:45:16profile how could such a profile be made
1:45:22if such psychiatric records were not
1:45:25obtained well sir there's a there's a
1:45:29question of terminology senator talmadge
1:45:32about this the psychological profiles
1:45:37which the agency have been doing on
1:45:39foreign individuals
1:45:42we're not based on psychiatric records
1:45:45they were based on general intelligence
1:45:47and from a
1:45:47and from this information and from
1:45:50interviews and things of that kind all
1:45:52this material was put together and an
1:45:54effort was made to draw a profile of
1:45:57this man as to what kind of a human
1:46:00being he was but there was never
1:46:01implicit in this ever that you had to
1:46:03have psychiatric material in order to do
1:46:07it in other words you didn't have put
1:46:08him on the couch no sir
1:46:10and then of the never were put on the
1:46:13couch
1:46:14I believe you testified that the only
1:46:16involvement the CIA had in this entire
1:46:19operation was to provide a tape recorder
1:46:24and a camera to mr. young no sir that
1:46:28was to mr. hunter mr. hunter and that
1:46:31was done at a request from mr.
1:46:34Ehrlichman is my recollection of how
1:46:36that happened was and general Cushman I
1:46:39believe will be here shortly and will
1:46:41you know can clarify this specifically
1:46:44it was my impression that mr. hunt came
1:46:47to see general Cushman and asked him for
1:46:50these things having been sponsored by
1:46:52mr. Ehrlichman is it your understanding
1:46:55over the years that when an assistant to
1:46:59the President of the United States or
1:47:02the chief of staff of the President of
1:47:05the United States or the counsel for the
1:47:08President or security adviser for the
1:47:11president requests informations or
1:47:14materials or equipment from the CIA this
1:47:18request is from the president well this
1:47:21is implicit in answer and presidents
1:47:24have tended in recent years to operate
1:47:26through these principal assistants
1:47:27because they can't be on the telephone
1:47:29all the time themselves and one gets
1:47:32used to this course of dealing that's
1:47:38right thank you very much mr. ambassador
1:47:41I have no further questions mr. chairman
1:47:43Thank You senator towns in a moment
1:47:45senator Baker will question ambassador
1:47:47Helms about James mccords duties at CIA
1:47:50public television coverage of the Senate
1:47:52Watergate hearings will continue after
1:47:54this pause for station identification
1:47:56unabridged coverage of these hearings is
1:47:59provided as a public service by the
1:48:01stations of PBS the Public Broadcasting
1:48:04Service impact continues its coverage of
1:48:14hearings by the Senate Select Committee
1:48:15on presidential campaign activities here
1:48:18again correspondent Jim Lehrer as we go
1:48:22back to the questioning the former
1:48:23director of the Central Intelligence
1:48:24Agency Richard Helms is still on the
1:48:27stain sounds Baker mr. chairman thank
1:48:34you very much miss James when did you
1:48:38first come to know mr. McCord mr. McCord
1:48:43yes sir
1:48:44senator Baker I don't recall exactly
1:48:47when I first met mr. McCord
1:48:49maybe you indicated that you knew him
1:48:51some 20 years if I indicated that and I
1:48:57didn't think that I did I simply was
1:49:01making a statement to the effect that we
1:49:04had worked in this agency the same
1:49:06agency over this period of 20 years but
1:49:09exactly when he came into my sights when
1:49:13our first shook hands with him I
1:49:14honestly don't remember it well I
1:49:15misunderstood you but I guess your
1:49:17testimony then was that you knew of his
1:49:20employment by the CIA for about 20 years
1:49:23yes sir and I had seen him on various
1:49:28occasions during the period that I was
1:49:30director there was a project which came
1:49:32to my attention from time to time in
1:49:34which he was involved and I think he may
1:49:35have been in my office three or four
1:49:37times during that period did you know
1:49:39the nature of his assignment
1:49:41responsibilities within the agency
1:49:43yes I did could you tell us what they
1:49:45were they were in the Security office
1:49:47and they had largely to do
1:49:50the physical security of our properties
1:49:53and plants and things of that kind there
1:49:56was one time when he had an assignment
1:49:58dealing with a defector and I believe
1:50:03that he was the man who was taking care
1:50:05of this defector and doing some
1:50:06interrogation of it this mr. McCoy
1:50:09generally regarded as a good employee
1:50:10and effective employee of the agency
1:50:13he was we're part of his
1:50:15responsibilities to search for and
1:50:18monitor the possibility of the
1:50:19installation of wiretap equipment in
1:50:23u.s. installations by others I can't
1:50:26recall whether he was in the counter
1:50:28surveillance part of the security
1:50:30officer not I'm sorry but this could be
1:50:32easily ascertained as it do you know
1:50:35whether or not a part of his functions
1:50:37were to monitor the current
1:50:39state-of-the-art electronic surveillance
1:50:42equipment and to make recommendations on
1:50:45its usefulness to the agency I don't
1:50:47remember if the document to that effect
1:50:49I have no reason to question it do you
1:50:52know in general whether or not mr.
1:50:54McCord was proficient and knowledgeable
1:50:57of the general field of electronic
1:50:59surveillance I think he must have known
1:51:02about it I can only make a comment here
1:51:06and I'm not desirous of making anybody
1:51:08laugh but it's quite clear that those
1:51:10fellows who entered the Democratic
1:51:12National Committee didn't know anything
1:51:13about the active way of going in the
1:51:16buildings and getting out without
1:51:17getting caught you sort of adopt the you
1:51:20lasso what's there on that I wouldn't
1:51:21have gone in there with no arm I'm not
1:51:25familiar with that statement but all
1:51:29right is it fair to say and I don't mean
1:51:31to put words in your mouth that you're
1:51:33implying at least or maybe saying that
1:51:36the McCord operation was not in keeping
1:51:39with modern
1:51:40and efficient standards of electronic
1:51:43surveillance as you know amateurish in
1:51:45the extreme how do you how do you square
1:51:50that with the idea that McCord had been
1:51:52with the agency for twenty years and
1:51:54that he was regarded as an effective
1:51:56employee well senator Baker I don't know
1:52:00whether these are proper matters for me
1:52:03to discuss in this forum but I'd like to
1:52:05point something out to you that breaking
1:52:10and entering and not getting caught is a
1:52:14very difficult activity and for it to be
1:52:19done properly one has to have trained
1:52:21individuals who do nothing else and who
1:52:24are used to doing this frequently and
1:52:26are trained right up to the minute and
1:52:29how to do it was McCord in that category
1:52:31obviously not Wow
1:52:33obviously
1:52:36obviously obviously the result would not
1:52:38bear that out but you see what I'm
1:52:40searching for whether or not he was in
1:52:43fact proficient notwithstanding that his
1:52:45performance was not perfect that was not
1:52:47his function in the agency as I ever
1:52:49recall it it was to do this kind of
1:52:51thing when did mr. McCord leave the
1:52:53employee of the CIA in 1970 I forgotten
1:52:57what month he retired perfectly
1:52:58legitimately it was a normal ordinary
1:53:01retirement from the CIA yes sir at his
1:53:04request as far as I know what about mr.
1:53:08hunt I believe your testimony is that he
1:53:10worked for the agency for 15 years
1:53:13approximately did you know more I just
1:53:14don't remember exactly how many years is
1:53:17like any way for a significant length of
1:53:19time I did knowing this how well did you
1:53:21know I knew him relatively well because
1:53:24he and I over many years worked in the
1:53:27same general section of the agency what
1:53:29was his responsibility of the agency
1:53:31well as I replied to Senator gurney he
1:53:35had a variety of assignments and I would
1:53:37plead with you to simply ask the agency
1:53:40to give you the employment record
1:53:41because I don't recall it I do this
1:53:44already had an assignment in connection
1:53:46with the operations leading up to the
1:53:47Bay of Pigs I do recall that can you
1:53:50describe for us what sort of activity he
1:53:52had in the Bay of Pigs operation I think
1:53:55you had to do with certain aspects of
1:53:57the propaganda in connection with the
1:53:59propaganda against the Cuban government
1:54:02this was a CIA operation yes and this
1:54:05would have been in early 60s obviously
1:54:09was Mr Hunt familiar with electronic
1:54:12surveillance some surreptitious entry I
1:54:15honestly don't know mr. hunt I believe
1:54:18was on the payroll in some capacity with
1:54:22the CIA was he an employee or a
1:54:25contractor he was an employee I believe
1:54:29you indicated the staff employee is what
1:54:31we call them and that continued through
1:54:33shortly after June 17 1972 no he he
1:54:38retired and what
1:54:40to work in Washington for somebody else
1:54:43and he retired sometime in 1970 mr. hunt
1:54:47was not 62 or 65 did he retire on
1:54:52disability
1:54:53no sir he retired because he was anxious
1:54:56to make more money that he can make in
1:54:58the government he had had some financial
1:55:00problems due to the fact that a daughter
1:55:02had been in a bad accident and had
1:55:04developed some illnesses I believe
1:55:07physical as well as psychiatric but he
1:55:10went up a lot of doctors bills they had
1:55:12a suit in connection with this accident
1:55:14and I believe he was looking for an
1:55:15opportunity to make more money than he
1:55:17could with the government there's mr.
1:55:21liddy ever employed with the CIA no sir
1:55:24or have any connection with it well
1:55:27about having any connection with I found
1:55:29is very dangerous I have to watch myself
1:55:31about this I was never aware of any
1:55:33connection that he had with the agents
1:55:34did anyone ever inquire of you whether
1:55:36Liddy had any relationship to the CIA
1:55:39well I've been asked this at various
1:55:42times and I've given the same answer
1:55:44that I have to you yes I'm not really
1:55:47trying to establish so much that he did
1:55:49or did not have a relationship as I am
1:55:51trying to establish whether or not an
1:55:53inquiry is made particularly on the
1:55:58White House staff or someone connected
1:56:01with the investigation of the Watergate
1:56:03subsequent to June 17 I was never aware
1:56:06of any inquiry all right what about mrs.
1:56:08Hahn
1:56:17somewhere in the dimness of my
1:56:19recollection I could we consult the
1:56:23actual employment records it seems to me
1:56:25that mrs. hunt was at one time employed
1:56:29by the agency before she married him or
1:56:31something I'm not sure about that
1:56:33they've been published speculation with
1:56:36the effect that mrs. hunt was very
1:56:39closely involved the CIA and possibly
1:56:42the superior of her husband mr. hunt
1:56:44could you give me any insight into the
1:56:45last not true okay wasn't she employed
1:56:50in some embassy here in Washington in
1:56:52recent years a notion I think that may
1:56:54be mutually exclusive miss chalice well
1:56:57it is I want to make that clear it is
1:57:01perfectly clear perfectly there
1:57:06but you have some dim recollection that
1:57:09mrs. hunt may at one time have been
1:57:11employed with CI but you come into us
1:57:13the check of the CIA record I would
1:57:14appreciate if you would do that's
1:57:16chairman eyes that that be done by state
1:57:20what about mr. Barker I believe you
1:57:22testified that he had some relationship
1:57:24to the CIA but that was a contractual
1:57:26relationship and I believe was in the
1:57:28early 60s during the time when there was
1:57:30a great deal of activity in Florida over
1:57:32Cuban operations I believe he was
1:57:35terminated in the middle 60s and I don't
1:57:38believe there was any relationship with
1:57:41him after that time did you know mr.
1:57:43Barker no mr. Sturgis no I don't know
1:57:46him was he employed at one time with the
1:57:49CIA in your files senator Baker there's
1:57:55the testimony which is classified that I
1:57:59gave on February the 7th before the
1:58:01Senate Foreign Relations Committee in
1:58:02which I discussed all these gentlemen
1:58:04and I was much better up to speed about
1:58:06their relationships at that time than I
1:58:09am now and if you would mind consulting
1:58:11that record I would accept mr. chairman
1:58:14in that respect I would propose
1:58:16something that the testimony of this
1:58:21witness and others before the Committee
1:58:24on Foreign Relations taken on May 17
1:58:281973 March 6 1973 and the Committee on
1:58:33Appropriations on May 16 1973 February
1:58:467th 1973 be incorporated in the files
1:58:50and records of the committee with leave
1:58:53the committee to decide what portions of
1:58:55that transcript may be excerpted for
1:58:58inclusion in the record as appropriate
1:59:00if there's no objection that
1:59:02we'll be done mr. Martinez worked for
1:59:05the CIA and I believe he's the one who
1:59:07was taken off the payroll shortly after
1:59:10June 17th 1972 did you know mr. Martinez
1:59:13knows is he the only one who was taken
1:59:16off the payroll after June 17 there were
1:59:18none others on it well I guess the
1:59:20answer is yes yes thank you and mr.
1:59:24Martinez was receiving $100 a month
1:59:27that's my recollection but that's in the
1:59:29February 2nd test I won't burden the
1:59:31record further with inquiry in that
1:59:33respect according to my understanding of
1:59:36the summary of the staff interviews with
1:59:39you mr. Helms these things appear and
1:59:42I'll go through them if you don't mind
1:59:44and stop as you may request or you may
1:59:47comment on them after I finish on July
1:59:497th 1971 general Cushman received a call
1:59:54from Ehrlichman advising that punch a
1:59:57former CIA employee had been added to
2:00:01the Security office at the White House
2:00:04this information was passed on by
2:00:07Cushman to you on the only I interrupt
2:00:12only to say that I had never heard that
2:00:15he'd been added to the security officer
2:00:17the White House I just heard that he'd
2:00:18been employed by the White House I don't
2:00:20know where they have a security office
2:00:21yes but in any event someone thought to
2:00:24notify the agency that a former employee
2:00:28of the CIA had been added to the White
2:00:30House staff yes so it was clear that
2:00:32someone at the White House knew that
2:00:34this man was a former CIA agent yes I
2:00:37can only assume that and on July 22nd
2:00:44according to our information and this I
2:00:46understand to be based on a summary of
2:00:48your interview with the staff on July
2:00:5122nd Hunt visited general Cushman and
2:00:55requested the agency the CIA to furnish
2:00:58him with identification documents and
2:01:00alias and physical disguises are you
2:01:04aware of that yes I am because I've seen
2:01:07a document
2:01:08meeting and they were supplied yes yes
2:01:12was there any protest the supplying of
2:01:15this material to mr. hunter well as I
2:01:20testified earlier when I was informed of
2:01:23this somewhat later the some of the
2:01:26items you mentioned I don't recall
2:01:28having been told that he'd been given
2:01:30and it was the tape recorder in the
2:01:34camera that I recall having been told
2:01:35about and that's what sticks in my
2:01:37memory have you later learned on good
2:01:40authority particularly from agency
2:01:43authority that hunt requested and
2:01:46received bogus identification documents
2:01:49an alias and a physical disguise yes
2:01:53that was a voice changer wasn't it the
2:01:55the wig I was coming to that then on
2:01:58several occasions hunt met with CIA
2:02:01people and received further alias
2:02:04documentation specifically the name of
2:02:07Edward Joseph Warren disguised material
2:02:10which I believe may have included away a
2:02:12speech alteration device which some of
2:02:15us would devoutly wish for a recorder in
2:02:20a typewriter case and a camera and a
2:02:22tobacco pouch I have learned that that
2:02:24was what he was given and all of those
2:02:26things were requested upon't op the CIA
2:02:29and CIA supplied them and this post date
2:02:33at the time when you were notified this
2:02:35former CIA agent was going to work for
2:02:37the White House did as mr. Liddy present
2:02:44do you did you know or have you since
2:02:46learned on more than one of these
2:02:48meetings and received similar disguises
2:02:51and alias documentation especially in
2:02:53the name of George F Leonard at mr.
2:02:55hunts request senator Baker I've never
2:02:58met
2:02:58Olivia I don't know miss did you receive
2:03:00this information so I was given this
2:03:02information in May of this year by CIA
2:03:06people is is it not true that at the
2:03:10time that this material was given to mr.
2:03:14Liddy it was given to him under an alias
2:03:16I believe under the name of George F
2:03:19Leonard well that may be but I
2:03:20understand the name of George S leonard
2:03:23together what the alias documentation
2:03:25was supplied by CIA August I'm sorry my
2:03:31only point was that at the time he was
2:03:34not identified I believe to the CIA
2:03:36people as mr. Liddy was he I'm not sure
2:03:39I didn't think he was he may or may not
2:03:41have been but my notes indicate here
2:03:43that mr. Liddy at the request of mr.
2:03:46hunt was supplied with an alias to wit
2:03:49George F Leonard an alias documentation
2:03:52to verify that identity by the CIA this
2:03:57post date at the time when the White
2:03:59House had served notice on CIA and a
2:04:02former agent mr. hunt was coming in on
2:04:06August 24th mr. hunt delivered to the
2:04:09CIA a film which he had taken for
2:04:11developing and it was in fact developed
2:04:15for the CIA that's what I or have you
2:04:17since learned that I've been told that
2:04:19that would that occurred and the see I
2:04:20delivered prints from those negatives to
2:04:23mr. Wright and kept file copies of the
2:04:29prints and negatives and the CIA records
2:04:31I was I don't know about these events
2:04:37from firsthand have you what I may have
2:04:40been informed may not be accurate I had
2:04:43thought that when the film was developed
2:04:45the film the develop film was returned
2:04:47plus the films themselves that the only
2:04:49thing the agency retained was some sort
2:04:51of a Xerox of the of the photographs but
2:04:55as the negative is not still in the
2:04:58possession
2:04:58of the agency I believe rent but prints
2:05:00were of Xeroxes all right Xerox prints I
2:05:04say this Senator Baker only in the
2:05:08interests of precision because
2:05:10photographs that have been xeroxed are
2:05:12not as clear as the original prints I
2:05:15agree with you they certainly are not
2:05:17but one of those photographs we learn
2:05:20from another part of the record was a
2:05:22picture I believe of mr. liddy
2:05:24standing in front of the decimated vials
2:05:29of dr. Ellsberg psychiatrist which was a
2:05:32rather graphic form of identification
2:05:34I'm unaware but you are aware that some
2:05:39form of photographic record probably a
2:05:42Xerox copy of the photographs of the
2:05:45Ellsberg break-in were retained in the
2:05:47CIA file this and the CIA received the
2:05:50film from Hunt and developed that's
2:05:53correct but may I say that at that time
2:05:55nobody knew what these films represented
2:05:57I've been told that since - surely it
2:06:00would arouse some modest amount of
2:06:03curiosity to see that and I won't pursue
2:06:06that any further because that's not the
2:06:08point I'm reaching for but on August 26
2:06:11you were advised of increasing demands
2:06:13made by Mr Hunt he had already made
2:06:16several which had been exceeded to the
2:06:18ones I've just described increasing
2:06:21demands from CIA for technical and other
2:06:24assistance including that to be supplied
2:06:27with a personal secretary then located
2:06:30in Paris did you have personal knowledge
2:06:33of that I did and it was at that time
2:06:35that I spoke to general Cushman as I
2:06:37said attack that was that effect the
2:06:40straw that broke the camel's back yes
2:06:42sir you put it very well and you
2:06:44declined to go any further and my
2:06:46information based on the staff interview
2:06:48with you mr. ambassador indicates that
2:06:51you were apprised of these facts by
2:06:53Cushman and that you told Cushman that
2:06:56hunt had now gone too far and that
2:07:00Cushman should tell Ehrlichman that
2:07:02other persist assistance would be
2:07:04afforded to hot yes sir
2:07:06Fishman did apprise her like when on
2:07:09August 27th and on August 30th Cushman
2:07:12sent you a memorandum on which you wrote
2:07:15the words good are the word good yes
2:07:18would you please read what the general
2:07:21Cushman wrote to me on which I wrote the
2:07:23word good I think that makes yes sir I
2:07:26don't have that in the summary staff
2:07:28gave me but I have now been handed as
2:07:30what appears to be a Xerox copy of a
2:07:33memorandum entitled at the top official
2:07:36routing slip item six as Howard hunt and
2:07:42under remarks with the date 27 August
2:07:451971 in the left hand margin quote I
2:07:48called John Ehrlichman Friday and
2:07:50explained why we could not meet these
2:07:52requests I indicated Hunt was becoming a
2:07:56pain in the neck John said he would
2:07:59restrain on with the in and below that
2:08:04is the initial see I take it which was
2:08:07this man is the word good with the
2:08:10initial mr. chairman this does not
2:08:22appear to be in the record if it is not
2:08:23might I ask that it be included now as
2:08:26an exhibit to the witness to be marked
2:08:28appropriate exhibit in committed to the
2:08:30record as such mr. Helms isn't it clear
2:08:35from all of this that the CIA at
2:08:40whatever level and you to some extent
2:08:42we're aware of the fact that mr. hunt at
2:08:46least was deeply involved in White House
2:08:51activity with CIA support and that she
2:08:54blew the whistle after a great number of
2:08:56things had already occurred Senator
2:08:59Baker if we go to July and August of
2:09:031971 I certainly was totally unaware of
2:09:09any illegal activity
2:09:11and the improper activity or anything
2:09:14that would have raised a question about
2:09:16the type of thing that mr. hunt was
2:09:19involved in I assure you there hadn't
2:09:23been any intimation whatever that there
2:09:26was any question of a burglary there was
2:09:27any question of stealing anything there
2:09:29was any question if it's having
2:09:30committed any illegal or improper acts I
2:09:34don't doubt that mr. Chan I take your
2:09:37testimony the same way I do the
2:09:38testimony of every other witness I start
2:09:41with the good-faith assumption that you
2:09:44swear the truth I have no reason to
2:09:47doubt that unless other in contradictory
2:09:50evidence is made to appear but I don't
2:09:53suggest that I'm trying to lead you into
2:09:55a contradiction I'm rather trying to
2:09:57establish a relationship on which the
2:10:02White House or the CIA would base its
2:10:04perception of the fear that CIA might
2:10:08have been involved in these things now
2:10:10let's see how that goes we've got hunt
2:10:12we've got McCord
2:10:14we've got Barker we've got Sturgis we've
2:10:18got Martinez we've got two sets of
2:10:20forged identity documents we've got a
2:10:23voice alternating device we got away
2:10:25we've got a camera a tobacco pouch we've
2:10:28got the processing service for that
2:10:30we've got the certain knowledge that all
2:10:32these things were discussed between
2:10:34White House staff and CIA staff and I
2:10:37wonder if that doesn't lead us to the
2:10:39idea that when these people are caught
2:10:40that somebody would certainly say well
2:10:43what was the CIA involvement well
2:10:47Senator Baker I have the greatest
2:10:48respect for you and if you would that
2:10:50those were the thought processes that
2:10:52have gone through your mind I have no
2:10:54reason to argue with him I simply a
2:10:56moment ago was not trying to make a
2:10:58self-serving statement I was simply
2:10:59trying to indicate that there's been a
2:11:02tendency it seems to me in the recent
2:11:04times to have everything run in real
2:11:08time as though all of these things were
2:11:10known and it happen
2:11:11and that therefore one should have had
2:11:13the good sense to know this thing or
2:11:15that thing at a certain period of time
2:11:17and I simply was trying to point out
2:11:19that this was not the case
2:11:21well I'm accepting that at face value
2:11:23and by the same token I hope mr.
2:11:25ambassador you don't think that these
2:11:27questions are accusatory certainly not
2:11:30of you maybe not even of CIA probably
2:11:33not even a CA but I'm trying to
2:11:35establish a set of facts on which
2:11:39perceptions might or might not be based
2:11:42particularly whether or not an inquiry
2:11:44should be made after the arrest and the
2:11:46attendant publicity about whether or not
2:11:49the people involved were in fact CIA
2:11:51involved I'm not saying they were I'm
2:11:53trying to establish the validity of an
2:11:55inquiry in that respect and I have not
2:11:58made up my mind on that point I'm going
2:11:59to weigh that very carefully as I'm
2:12:01gonna weigh all the other evidence and
2:12:03it's going to be February 28 before I
2:12:05state a conclusion but your
2:12:07identification of these components is
2:12:09very helpfully and I am grateful for it
2:12:12mr. chairman I'll conclude I'm sure my
2:12:14time is over but I can't include without
2:12:17saying that I think mr. helm said at
2:12:20great personal sacrifice has agreed to
2:12:23appear before this committee and other
2:12:24committees that his information has been
2:12:28most helpful that his testimony has been
2:12:30forthright I believe and forthcoming it
2:12:34may be that at a future time will
2:12:36require further information from mr.
2:12:38Helms but I hope not
2:12:39he has a very important post to return
2:12:42to Thank You senator Baker he is not the
2:12:52director of the CIA appointed by the
2:12:56President subject to confirmation the
2:12:58Senate yes mr. chairman does the same
2:13:01thing apply to the deputy director yes
2:13:03mr. chairman now in as much as all these
2:13:08materials were furnished to mr. hunt in
2:13:12July August the 1971 at the request of
2:13:18mr. John Ehrlichman is it not reasonable
2:13:22to
2:13:23that the White House knew that the mr.
2:13:26hunt was engaged in uncover work at is
2:13:28mr. Eric menu that mr. hunt was engaged
2:13:31in undercover work mr. chairman I can
2:13:40only assume that if mr. Ehrlichman asked
2:13:43mr. Huntley helped I'd realized that in
2:13:47this life assumptions are very dangerous
2:13:49one would it assumed that he'd asked for
2:13:51this help for some reason and he must
2:13:53have known what the reason was or at
2:13:54least I would have assumed that he would
2:13:56have known what the reason is but I
2:13:57can't prove it and I don't know and I
2:13:59didn't know myself at the time well then
2:14:01you do know that mr. Ehrlichman
2:14:03requested that mr. Ehrlichman was so
2:14:06very important to aid in the White House
2:14:10and he requested this aid for mr. hunt
2:14:14and also you know that the CIA put an
2:14:18end to the when the CIA put an end to
2:14:21given no help to mr. hunt that mr.
2:14:24Ehrlichman was notified that mr. hunted
2:14:26become home a pain in the neck so didn't
2:14:32that strike you when you learned of
2:14:34these things didn't strike you as
2:14:35strange that the White House of what
2:14:38engaged in undercover work on its own
2:14:40initiative rather than resort to the use
2:14:43of the FBI who you know senator Ervin at
2:14:48that time there was no intimation that
2:14:51this was even undercover work what I
2:14:54understood Mr Hunt had told general
2:14:56Cushman was that he wanted to conduct an
2:14:58interview and there was no intimation
2:15:02that this was undercover work I'm not
2:15:04here as a weak that was so you didn't
2:15:08think that the wig was the thought to
2:15:09improve the the appearance of the theme
2:15:12of the false accuser mr.
2:15:15I assume in retrospect because I didn't
2:15:21remember about the wig at the time mr.
2:15:23chairman as I've testified but I have a
2:15:25zoomed retrospect that mr. hunt wanted
2:15:28to conduct this interview disguising
2:15:31himself as someone else yeah but that we
2:15:35didn't know that at the time well when
2:15:37my man undertakes to disguise himself as
2:15:39someone else he's engaged in under the
2:15:41cover work isn't it well we get we run
2:15:44into a definitional problem
2:15:45well not you that you didn't think that
2:15:48you got applied for this voice
2:15:50alteration device and all of this thing
2:15:52are different though a part in the choir
2:15:55did you mr. chairman my problem here is
2:16:02that at the time that this was going on
2:16:06I do not recall having been told that he
2:16:10had been given a week in a voice
2:16:11operation device I found that out in May
2:16:14of this year so that this business of
2:16:16the however one interprets undercover
2:16:19work or however one defines it no
2:16:21intimation was given to me at that time
2:16:23that hunt was involved in undercover
2:16:24work well we we've had some discussion
2:16:27around some observations some discussion
2:16:30that a lot of that most of us human
2:16:33beings are sort of like lightning bugs
2:16:35we carry illumination behind and see
2:16:37barely in retrospect and I do in
2:16:39prospect but in retrospect don't you
2:16:43think it would be reasonable to infer
2:16:44that Mr Hunt was engaged in something
2:16:47that might be called detective work if
2:16:49not undercover work yes in retrospect
2:16:51sir
2:16:52so our activity certainly now the same
2:16:59thing I believe that you that mr. Liddy
2:17:01was punished some material under an
2:17:07alias they're not on his own name during
2:17:11the same period of time I believe that's
2:17:14true yes
2:17:19now in a bleep but you stated that when
2:17:23you you learned of the break-in at the
2:17:25Watergate I leave you out of the country
2:17:27anyway I was here they were help yes sir
2:17:30I thought you said something about
2:17:32readings in a foreign you know an
2:17:34American no sir foreign language
2:17:36newspaper no mr. chairman the question
2:17:38that I was asked which I read about was
2:17:41the break-in of dr. Fielding's office oh
2:17:43yes that's right I beg your pardon I
2:17:45remember now and it just shows that even
2:17:49not the chairman of this committee is
2:17:51not done it doesn't have my infallible
2:17:55memory of something he's heard just now
2:17:59after the break-in when was the first
2:18:02tough time have to break in you had any
2:18:04contact but then they bought it from the
2:18:05White House it was that that June 23rd
2:18:11me 23rd you and our general Walters were
2:18:14requested by the White House to to come
2:18:18to the White House well you know yes sir
2:18:21we were asked to come to mr. Ehrlichman
2:18:22and you had a a conversation with mr.
2:18:26Haldeman and mr. Ehrlichman that correct
2:18:29and they expressed a concern about the
2:18:35possibility that if the FBI continued
2:18:37certain investigations in Mexico that it
2:18:40might to an affair with some of the
2:18:42activities of the CIA yes sir yeah did
2:18:46dimension exactly what activities the
2:18:49FBI had in Mexico no sir they did not
2:18:52was there anything said about Mexican
2:18:54checks mr. chairman
2:19:04it is my recollection and I can suddenly
2:19:08say my honest recollection that the
2:19:11first time I heard about any money or a
2:19:13check going to Mexico was later on the
2:19:20day of the 23rd when General Warner's
2:19:23reported to me about his conversation
2:19:25with acting director Gray in the
2:19:28afternoon earlier in the afternoon I
2:19:30believe it that happened about an hour
2:19:32and a half after we'd been with mr.
2:19:34Ollivander mr. Ehrlichman and mr. gray
2:19:36had mentioned the general waters as I
2:19:38recall it that there was something about
2:19:41a check for something over $80,000 that
2:19:44has showed up in Mexico but this was the
2:19:47first I'd heard that was all--no
2:19:49after you log your visit to the White
2:19:51House but on the same day of your visit
2:19:53that's right I don't recall mr. Haldeman
2:19:55or mr. Ehrlichman missing anything about
2:19:57money
2:19:58well what specific matters gave them the
2:20:05White House concern about the
2:20:07possibility that FBI investigations
2:20:12might someway collide with the set up of
2:20:15the CIA no explanation was given mr.
2:20:17chairman and as I testified earlier this
2:20:20morning it was not possible for me to
2:20:24know everything that we were doing in
2:20:26Mexico or what the FBI might be running
2:20:28into and I simply thought it was prudent
2:20:30to do some checking before I got
2:20:32assertive about this now all the
2:20:36director the CIA or the Acting Director
2:20:39CIA is also a presidential appointee
2:20:43isn't it the director and the deputy
2:20:48director of Central Intelligence are by
2:20:51statute presidential appointees and
2:20:53subject to the advice and consent of the
2:20:55Senate and the same thing that's
2:20:58recently been have
2:20:59with respect to the director of the FBI
2:21:01isn't as I believe it has I think that
2:21:05he now is subject to Conville anyway
2:21:06after you had view after um general
2:21:09Walters had visited the White House and
2:21:13had a conversation with mr. Haldeman and
2:21:20mr. Ehrlichman in which they expressed
2:21:23concern about the possibility of FBI
2:21:27investigations in Mexico colliding with
2:21:32the Paula studied the act work of the of
2:21:38the agents of the CIA general Walters
2:21:41did receive a communication and from mr.
2:21:46gray the Acting Director of the FBI
2:21:49concerning these Mexican checks
2:21:51I believe that acting director gray
2:21:53spoke to him in their meeting about this
2:21:56I don't remember a communication I mean
2:21:58a written communication you know the
2:22:00director of the effort I mean mr. gray
2:22:02say the thing about especially any
2:22:04concern as to whether the FBI operations
2:22:08might impede them all the CIA in some
2:22:12manner in pursuing an investigation
2:22:15about these eight or nine thousand
2:22:17dollars in checks Mexicans yes mr.
2:22:19chairman I honestly don't remember but I
2:22:22believe that the general Walters who had
2:22:23the conversation who I believe will
2:22:25testify here might be able to clarify
2:22:27this for you because he was the one who
2:22:29after all that was with him now in
2:22:32addition to then then you are general
2:22:35Walters heads to several of our meetings
2:22:38all the phone calls with mr. Gregg about
2:22:41this Malecha my recollection is that
2:22:46during this period I did I personally
2:22:48did not see acting director gray I
2:22:52talked to him on the telephone it was
2:22:54only general Walters who visited with
2:22:56him and talked with him did you talk to
2:22:58mr. gray about the Mexican checks I
2:23:01never talked to about Mexican checks I
2:23:03talked to mr. gray on the phone about
2:23:05this Mexican lawyer Oh Gary Hill was
2:23:08something
2:23:09that's right but he but to you general
2:23:12waffles did report to you that in his
2:23:15meetings with mr. gray that mr. gray
2:23:17talked about the Mexican sheiks
2:23:19yes sir he did but and as I recall this
2:23:23now it was a sum of in excess of $80,000
2:23:27on the check but nobody ever explained
2:23:30to me at that time what this money was
2:23:32for or how it got there or anything
2:23:34about its purpose then after that time
2:23:45it took to make it perfectly clear to
2:23:51mr. gray that they could that FBI's
2:23:54investigation into the matters relating
2:23:59to these Mexican checks would not
2:24:00interfere with the CIA well sir what we
2:24:04made the clear to mr. gray was that if
2:24:07by any chance they ran into any of our
2:24:09operations they were to abide by our
2:24:11longtime understanding to notify us and
2:24:15that ended them out as far as the CIA
2:24:17and the Mexican section started mr. then
2:24:20a short time after that the mr. Deane
2:24:30contacted CIA owned on two successive
2:24:33days three 6s research yesterday's and
2:24:38the CIA assumed that he was representing
2:24:42the White House didn't well you see mr.
2:24:45chairman when he mr. Dean called general
2:24:48waters general Wallace was not
2:24:50acquainted with mr. Dean and since I
2:24:55think that they somehow in the
2:24:56conversation general waters intimated
2:24:59that why should he come down and talk to
2:25:00mr. Dean mr. Dean said you get a hold of
2:25:02mr. Ehrlichman and he will attest to the
2:25:04fact that I'm authorized to talk to you
2:25:06and general waters told me he had
2:25:08reached mr. Ehrlichman and
2:25:10Ehrlichman had so stated yes in these
2:25:14conversations just an interesting time
2:25:16I'll lump them together the first
2:25:19approach that mr. Dean made was that he
2:25:21requested that the CIA paid the defense
2:25:26of costume know the sport of these five
2:25:29men that the ten men had been called in
2:25:31the Watergate mr. chairman may I with
2:25:34great deference correct your State yes'm
2:25:37these were feelers to find out if there
2:25:40was some way that the CI might do
2:25:42according to general waters reports to
2:25:44me he was never requested to do anything
2:25:46yes well mr. Dean made inquiry of
2:25:52general Walters as to whether or not
2:25:55there was any way in which the CIA could
2:26:00Bailey's cause I think that's probably a
2:26:03goodness and then all the succeeding day
2:26:05while he made them after that he was
2:26:07advised by general Walters that CIA that
2:26:10would be beyond the authority of the CIA
2:26:13and that he knew that you wouldn't count
2:26:16on us then mr. Dean returned and asked
2:26:21if they could range if CIA could arrange
2:26:23bail for the persons that rested in the
2:26:26Watergate I had distinct a recollection
2:26:29and why they're stuck so firmly in my
2:26:31mind I'm not entirely sure it was on the
2:26:34second day that this question of bail
2:26:36and salaries was raised in other words
2:26:38there were three sessions Monday Tuesday
2:26:39and Wednesday and it was at a Tuesday
2:26:41session that these matters came up now
2:26:44you stated that you did the best you
2:26:48could and you did succeed and not
2:26:50stopping any further advances to the CIA
2:26:56in this respect and I presume that in so
2:26:58doing you were acting under the statute
2:27:00and pursuant to the statute which says
2:27:03that the CIA is has no law enforcement
2:27:08powers of a domestic nature and has no
2:27:12in regard to internal security but not
2:27:14only that was to chairman but a trust is
2:27:18put in the director of the central
2:27:20intelligence about the money that's
2:27:23given to him by Congress and there are
2:27:25certain understandings with the
2:27:26appropriate appropriations committees of
2:27:28Congress about what this money should be
2:27:29spent for and how it shall be handled
2:27:31and I was very clear in my mind about
2:27:33those and there was nothing about this
2:27:35request that we could have accommodated
2:27:37within those guidelines and that was
2:27:39made very clear mr. Dean I believe it
2:27:41was now there's been some examination
2:27:46indicating that perhaps you and general
2:27:49Walters had some discrepancy there was
2:27:52some discrepancy of a slight nature in
2:27:57the testimony you gave before believe
2:27:59some to sámi to this training and that
2:28:01as this understanding was all hanging
2:28:04out there in the committee I mean this
2:28:05is just the problem of human
2:28:07recollections and I realized that
2:28:09through these hearings I was told by
2:28:11some gentleman this morning that people
2:28:13seem to have a good forgettery when they
2:28:15get gas chair I don't have to pretend to
2:28:19be any better any worse than anyone else
2:28:21and my memory is fallible from time to
2:28:24time but I'm doing my very best at all
2:28:27of these hearings to tell you what I
2:28:30remembered at the time but and as far as
2:28:33the small disagreement and in general
2:28:34Wars and I were concerned that what we
2:28:36talked it over and analyzed the
2:28:38conversation and reconstructed it I had
2:28:40to admit I'd four guys this is not
2:28:43what's best not as in any indicator
2:28:46meeting any criticism all because I just
2:28:49illustrated myself for this morning that
2:28:51my memory is quite fallible and also
2:28:55there's some other good men's members
2:28:57and I strike myself I was a good man
2:28:59but there's members of other people have
2:29:02been a fallible and the Gospels of
2:29:09Matthew Mark Luke and John tell us that
2:29:13when the Pontius Pilate the Roman
2:29:15governor ordered the crucifixion of
2:29:19Christ that he wrote
2:29:22a title and had it placed on put on the
2:29:25cross and people who have an opportunity
2:29:29to know file things to just right and I
2:29:32think this more apt to be accurate then
2:29:37just what we're here and it's rather
2:29:40significant that these the writers of
2:29:43these four Gospels disagree this is
2:29:45exactly what this title it was put on
2:29:49the cross said the 37th of verse of the
2:29:5527th chapter Matthew says that the type
2:29:57of think that the writing which was put
2:30:00on the cross read as follows this is
2:30:03Jesus the King of the Jews the 26th
2:30:09verse of the fifteenth chapter Saint
2:30:11Mark has a different version it says the
2:30:15King of the Jews the 38th verse of the
2:30:2023rd chapter Saint Luke a still a
2:30:22different version of what was on this
2:30:25title and it says the title was this is
2:30:30the King of the Jews
2:30:31and then the Gospel the 19th verse of
2:30:36the nineteenth chapter Saint John has a
2:30:38fourth person of the same words the same
2:30:42title forever Jesus of Nazareth the King
2:30:47of the Jews and so I say that though if
2:30:51those four good men could have different
2:30:55versions of the same words it's quite
2:30:59understandable file you and I and other
2:31:02human beings have sawed off a label
2:31:04memories about things sometimes there's
2:31:07another thing I've noticed about the
2:31:09human mind and that is this that's
2:31:12sometimes sometimes when something
2:31:14occurs at first we have a recollection
2:31:19that certain things were said and our
2:31:24memory does not tell us that certain
2:31:25other things were said but when we hear
2:31:29the testimony of other people or
2:31:31sometimes look at the document that our
2:31:32memories become refreshed
2:31:34and the things that were hidden
2:31:36somewhere in an unconscious part of our
2:31:39mind but they'll come fresh to our
2:31:42memories again and so long I just want
2:31:46to say these things because I don't
2:31:48think a tribute to much importance to
2:31:50the fact that human beings don't recall
2:31:52all conversations and all you've all
2:31:55written words exactly alike and I just
2:31:58like to say this of mr. Helms for a
2:32:01moment the observation of the work you
2:32:07did is a direct to the CIA and from the
2:32:09context I had with you I think you did a
2:32:11a magnificent job in that capacity Thank
2:32:14You mr. chairman thank you very much
2:32:31chairman mr. ambassador in response to
2:32:34the Chairman's question
2:32:36you use the word which intrigues me
2:32:38feelers I presume feel is coming from
2:32:42the White House when did you realize
2:32:45that the White House was feeling you out
2:32:47about possibility of using your agency
2:32:51as a cover-up for why the Watergate
2:32:55burglars
2:33:02when I used to senator inouye the word
2:33:04feelers I was describing what I
2:33:08understood was the way mr. Dean put
2:33:12conducted a conversation with general
2:33:14waters which had to do with whether
2:33:19there was a possibility that the agency
2:33:22could provide covert funds to provide
2:33:25bail for the men who had broken into the
2:33:28Watergate and also whether or not when
2:33:34they were convicted and sent to jail the
2:33:36agency would pay their salaries while
2:33:38they were in jail now according to
2:33:42general Warner's report to me this was
2:33:44not a request of him by mr. Dean it was
2:33:48sort of postulating what could be done
2:33:50under the circumstances and this is why
2:33:53I thought maybe a descriptive word as
2:33:55any would be feelers oh don't you
2:33:59consider that the suggestions being made
2:34:01of the possibilities constituted a very
2:34:06serious departure from the statutorily
2:34:08prescribed functions of your agency it
2:34:11would have been if we had in any way
2:34:13become involved in this that being the
2:34:16case did you feel that that you should
2:34:22have advised the two senior members of
2:34:25the House and the Senate the chairman of
2:34:27the Appropriations Committee of the
2:34:28House and the Senate
2:34:30well said no way I didn't and I don't
2:34:35recall having thought that that was an
2:34:37obligation I had at the time I thought
2:34:39that my job was to keep the agency clear
2:34:41of all this and as long as I succeeded
2:34:43in keeping it clear but that was my job
2:34:45and my business and further that these
2:34:51conversations were held in such a
2:34:54fashion that there was if I understood
2:34:57general Walters report to me accurately
2:35:00to make the assertion that we'd been
2:35:02asked to do this would have been denied
2:35:04that this was a possibility that was
2:35:06being discussed but I don't want to lean
2:35:08heavily on that
2:35:10I want to lean heavily on the fact that
2:35:12I was trying to keep the agency clean
2:35:13and that I didn't as long as I kept it
2:35:17clean I felt I was doing my job
2:35:19but whatever was being suggested in your
2:35:22mind was improper the improper thing
2:35:26would have been if we'd done it did you
2:35:29advise your successor mr. Schlesinger
2:35:31are these feelers I don't recall our
2:35:39disgustingness now as a matter of fact I
2:35:42had the conversations I was mr.
2:35:45Schlesinger when he came into the agency
2:35:47had to do almost entirely with
2:35:50operational matters and liaison our
2:35:51relationships and things of that kind I
2:35:53didn't get into these matters as I
2:35:54recall them thank you
2:36:15mr. Helms I'd like to Pastor Helms I'd
2:36:18like to if I can go back to the meeting
2:36:22of the 23rd and I'm now using the
2:36:26transcript of the hearing specifically
2:36:29that portion of transcript which relates
2:36:31to mr. Collins recollections of that
2:36:33meeting you're now quoting from mr.
2:36:36Haldeman that's right that's right I
2:36:38think this is a good opportunity to try
2:36:40and not so much sell the question as to
2:36:43whether or not Watergate was discussed
2:36:45because to be candid there was no
2:36:48question that it was and so far as mr.
2:36:50Holloman was concerned and but rather
2:36:54what was said I think that's that's
2:36:56what's important I think everybody
2:36:58concedes the fact that Watergate was
2:37:00discussed at this meeting regardless as
2:37:02I say just look if you're a recollection
2:37:04of those hearings no be disputes that
2:37:06either your later recollection or and
2:37:08mr. Hall Evans testimony buddy before
2:37:11the committee Solomon said so without
2:37:15commenting on either the accuracy of mr.
2:37:17Walters recollection or your recitation
2:37:19of it and he's talking to mr. - because
2:37:24he's given number of different
2:37:25statements and depositions in this thing
2:37:27that make a rather complex but the
2:37:28meeting one of the purpose of the
2:37:30meeting is assigned to me by the
2:37:31President on the morning of the 23rd
2:37:33when he told me to have to have me and
2:37:36Ehrlichman meet with director Helms and
2:37:38deputy director or Walters in addition
2:37:42to ascertaining whether there was any
2:37:44CIA involvement I put that as point
2:37:47number one whether there was any CIA
2:37:50concern about earlier activities of
2:37:53people who had been arrested at the
2:37:54Watergate I put that as point number two
2:37:57and three was to tell us CIA directors
2:38:01at the FBI had expressed concern that as
2:38:06to whether there was CIA involvement or
2:38:08any impingement now he elaborates that
2:38:13he elaborates on this in the following
2:38:16statements mr. Helms told me at the
2:38:20meeting that there was had no CIA
2:38:24involvement in the Watergate operation
2:38:26and he had so informed director
2:38:28gray so I learned that at that meeting I
2:38:30didn't know it prior to the meeting
2:38:33now and here's what I'd like to to
2:38:37question you on as to what your
2:38:38recollection is we get into what he
2:38:39considered to be the main point mr.
2:38:42Haldeman because and there seems to be a
2:38:45very difficult point to get across but
2:38:48because there were other items of
2:38:50concern the matter the question raised
2:38:53was not solely the question of whether
2:38:55the CIA had been involved in the
2:38:56Watergate break-in but also whether the
2:39:00investigation of the Watergate break-in
2:39:02which was to be thorough and total could
2:39:05possibly impinge upon the activities
2:39:08totally unrelated to Watergate and
2:39:11related to national security
2:39:14or to covert CIA operations the
2:39:17activities of some of the individuals
2:39:19who had also been involved in the
2:39:21Watergate and had been arrested at the
2:39:22Watergate let me just read that last
2:39:25portion but also whether the
2:39:27investigation of the Watergate break-in
2:39:29which is to be thorough in total could
2:39:30possibly impinge upon the activities
2:39:32totally unrelated to Watergate and
2:39:34related to national security or to
2:39:36covert CIA operations now is that
2:39:42thien's is that the instruction that you
2:39:46recall or is that the subject matter
2:39:48that you recall being related from mr.
2:39:52Haldeman to general Walters or is it of
2:39:55a different nature and if so well I
2:39:57recall being asked if there was any CIA
2:40:00involvement right and I answered
2:40:02negatively correct I recall as I said
2:40:07earlier this morning that mr. Hollin
2:40:09made some reference to the Bay of Pigs I
2:40:11referred to it as an incoherent
2:40:13reference because it was frankly in my
2:40:16recollection I don't know exactly what
2:40:18he point he had in mind but I reacted to
2:40:24that question very firmly
2:40:27now the Bay of Pigs is the rubric for a
2:40:31very unhappy event in the life of the
2:40:33CIA it's been a dead cat that's been
2:40:36thrown at us
2:40:37over the years ever since and therefore
2:40:41it's one to which I'm likely to react
2:40:44and react rather quickly for the simple
2:40:48reason that the Bay of Pigs was long
2:40:50since over the problems arising from
2:40:53what had been liquidated I was well
2:40:55aware of this and I didn't care what any
2:40:57investigation had to do with the Bay of
2:40:59Pigs he could have gotten into anybody
2:41:00involved with it or without it or above
2:41:02it or below it I didn't care and I was
2:41:05trying to make this clear to mr.
2:41:06Haldeman on that occasion the fact that
2:41:09some of these people that broke into the
2:41:11Watergate had at one time and had
2:41:13relationships with the agency including
2:41:15Martinez who had had them up and told
2:41:17just a few days before didn't make any
2:41:21difference to me I mean there was
2:41:23nothing that anybody was going to find
2:41:24out about investigating them it was
2:41:26going to bother us as far as I was aware
2:41:29we then get down to the question of what
2:41:33an FBI investigation in Mexico might
2:41:35turn out and as I explained earlier I
2:41:38did not have in my head all of our
2:41:40operations and makes it criminal but
2:41:42what was more important I didn't know
2:41:44where the FBI was investigating in
2:41:47Mexico I didn't know who they were
2:41:49following I didn't know what they were
2:41:51up to
2:41:51so I regarded as prudent to inform
2:41:55myself a bit about these things
2:41:57before I came down flatly and said let
2:42:00the FBI go ahead investigate in Mexico
2:42:02they'll never run across our operations
2:42:04because this might not have been the
2:42:06case do I answer your question sir all
2:42:10right so that that's what what then did
2:42:16mr. Haldeman to the best of your
2:42:18recollection tell general Walters the
2:42:21thrust of what I understood mr. Haldeman
2:42:25to say to general waters was that he
2:42:27wanted him to speak to acting director
2:42:29Gray to restrain whatever investigation
2:42:36the FBI was conducting in Mexico because
2:42:39it might run into certain CIA operations
2:42:41down there and I've just explained to
2:42:43you why it was that I could not save on
2:42:46the spur of the moment
2:42:47it couldn't possibly happen so mr.
2:42:55sender Wiker I'd also like to mention
2:42:57here if you don't mind but something I
2:42:59said a moment earlier that often the
2:43:02White House gets information about
2:43:04things that other people in the
2:43:07government are not privy to the
2:43:08President and other people in the White
2:43:09House have a great many sources of
2:43:11information and I didn't know what they
2:43:13had on their mind about CIA operations
2:43:15in Mexico at that point or might have
2:43:18had on their mind now immediately upon
2:43:22leaving this meeting with general
2:43:25Walters did you have any discussion with
2:43:28general Walters relative to the
2:43:30discussion which had taken place with
2:43:32mr. Haldeman and mr. Lee as I testified
2:43:34earlier I told general Walters that I
2:43:37thought when he saw mr. gray that he
2:43:40should point out to mr. gray that
2:43:42there's a delimitation agreement between
2:43:43the FBI and the CIA we're in if FBI
2:43:47investigations run into CIA matters the
2:43:50word there to be reported to the CIA and
2:43:52if CIA operations from the FBI matters
2:43:55they were to be reported to the FBI and
2:43:57I thought that this was all the whole
2:43:59distance he had to go in his
2:44:00conversation with mr. gray it was a
2:44:02legitimate request it was made because I
2:44:06didn't know whether mr. gray was
2:44:07familiar with this he hadn't been acting
2:44:09director for very long I wasn't even
2:44:11sure general waters was familiar with it
2:44:13because he had only been in the agency
2:44:14about six weeks or so so I wanted to be
2:44:17sure that these two relatively new
2:44:19people were not talking about what I
2:44:21thought were we're talking about what I
2:44:24thought were important and legitimate
2:44:25things would it be proper to say that
2:44:30you were comfortable with general
2:44:33Walters going to Pat gray with what you
2:44:37indicated to him outside of the meeting
2:44:40and that you were uneasy if he had gone
2:44:42to general gray with what had been
2:44:44transmitted by mr. Haldeman I accept
2:44:46that
2:44:49then one last question
2:44:58when I asked you in the first round of
2:45:01questioning as to whether not you felt
2:45:03you were being talked around during that
2:45:05meeting of the 23rd and and and as
2:45:10you've testified to I've gathered this
2:45:13pride that you have in the independence
2:45:15of the CIA the belief that you have in
2:45:21the in the trust that is imposed upon
2:45:23the director by the Congress and I
2:45:27gather you you you certainly don't
2:45:28hesitate to express those feelings to
2:45:30this committee and I gather you don't
2:45:31hesitate to express them or you didn't
2:45:34hesitate to express them to anybody else
2:45:36so while you were director of the CIA
2:45:40now do you feel that this might have
2:45:42been one of the reasons why you were
2:45:44talked around at this meeting of the
2:45:4623rd well certainly that occurred to me
2:45:51I had mixed emotions about this any
2:45:57sensible person I think would have
2:45:59wondered why I was not asked to do this
2:46:03various interpretations I suppose could
2:46:06have been thought up but the fact of the
2:46:11way it was handled is in himself an
2:46:15unusual event and general waters I think
2:46:21and he could speak for himself about
2:46:22this thought that maybe they were asking
2:46:24him to do it because he was an army
2:46:25officer and used to taking orders but
2:46:28I've been in the government a long time
2:46:29and used to taking orders too so that I
2:46:33think one was forced a bit to the
2:46:35conclusion that for some reason they
2:46:36thought he might carry out the
2:46:38instructions more precisely and more
2:46:40fully than I might have I just don't
2:46:43know
2:46:43I've never been told thank you very much
2:46:49[Music]
2:46:52I'm soon very much time as I understood
2:46:55your testimony mr. ambassador hunt was
2:46:59supplied with certain equipment I don't
2:47:02recall what you said he was supplied
2:47:04with but that it was not used in the
2:47:07Ellsberg burglary well Senator Baker
2:47:10this is the point I was trying to make
2:47:14that you read out to me a moment ago the
2:47:17equipment that he was given and I submit
2:47:20to you as a highly intelligent human
2:47:23being could you break into a building
2:47:25with that equipment I don't know but
2:47:26what I'm reaching for is if it wasn't
2:47:29use prevent what was it used for I don't
2:47:31know to this day did you give us any
2:47:37idea with it were there other operations
2:47:39and that required this this rather
2:47:41elaborate and exotic spice at you know
2:47:49the spice set was if you put it together
2:47:52I think it's consistent with what the
2:47:55Chairman was saying that this would be
2:47:57the kind of thing you would want if you
2:47:59were going to conduct an individual an
2:48:01interview with an individual whom you
2:48:04didn't want to recognize you for who you
2:48:06were in other words under an assumed
2:48:08name for whatever purposes you have any
2:48:10idea we've heard testimony I believe
2:48:17from other witnesses that it's the
2:48:18practice of the CIA and the event that
2:48:21one of their agents gets into trouble
2:48:23that the agency takes care of their
2:48:26family and
2:48:28sort of thing is that in fact a policy
2:48:30of the CIA well for example it is now
2:48:34public knowledge that mr. Downey and mr.
2:48:38Fecteau were working for the CIA when
2:48:40they were captured arrested convicted
2:48:41and put in jail in China and during the
2:48:44period that they were in jail their
2:48:45salaries were paid just as though
2:48:47they've been on our own when they came
2:48:49out they had a quite tidy piece of money
2:48:51to take care of them for whatever period
2:48:54of time they wanted to use it for it and
2:48:55we supported the families of one of them
2:48:57during that period is the answer yes yes
2:49:05do I understand the thrust of your
2:49:08testimony to be that the things I listed
2:49:11earlier about the wigs about the camera
2:49:14and about the voice altering device
2:49:16about the psychological profile possibly
2:49:19at a number of other things were all
2:49:21done by the CIA but that you learned of
2:49:23all or most of them much much later oh I
2:49:26was involved in the psychological
2:49:28profile I don't want to duck that one
2:49:29are i authorized it's being made okay
2:49:32what about the others but do I
2:49:33understand that you learned that these
2:49:34things much like somewhat later because
2:49:43you see if you find my answer equivocal
2:49:45let me explain it my recollection was
2:49:47that I heard about the tape recorder in
2:49:50the camera within the timeframe of July
2:49:53August 1971
2:49:55it's the wig and the other things that I
2:49:56did not remember having been told about
2:49:58at that time which I learned about
2:50:00considerably later and to this day you
2:50:02don't know what those things were used
2:50:04for no sir you know senator Baker I want
2:50:07to explain something the committee I've
2:50:08been away in these recent months so I've
2:50:10not had access to the newspapers here of
2:50:13the full testimony before this committee
2:50:15this may have been explained many times
2:50:16in Congress and I may have missed it so
2:50:19that I'm not I just don't know why
2:50:21didn't you when you found out about
2:50:23these things launch an inquiry into
2:50:29but quite frankly as of the time that
2:50:35this was all going on you realize that
2:50:38at the time of the Watergate burglary
2:50:40there was no evidence that had ever come
2:50:42to my attention that this equipment had
2:50:44been used for any illegal or improper
2:50:46act yeah but you knew it was outstanding
2:50:49at the moment you found out this stuff
2:50:51had been issued of the support supplied
2:50:53by CIA did you do anything to
2:50:55investigate what it was used for no sir
2:50:57why didn't you frankly it didn't occur
2:51:02to me you knew a day after this happened
2:51:06that two or three four of your former
2:51:09FBI CIA agents and one of them still on
2:51:12the payroll was involved did you launch
2:51:14yourself an investigation to see what
2:51:16was going on about the Watergate
2:51:18burglary certainly certainly what you do
2:51:21we checked on all these people their
2:51:24relationships with our people their
2:51:26relationships with the agency we went
2:51:28through all of that and turned all that
2:51:29material over there go talk to these
2:51:31people you pick up the phone and say
2:51:33what the world's going on no sir we
2:51:35never talked to any of them as far as
2:51:36I'm aware after all they were in jail at
2:51:40that time Wow
2:51:41that's right they were I won't pursue
2:51:49this mr. chairman it strikes me though
2:51:51that there were there was there were
2:51:55great indications maybe hindsight's the
2:51:57only way we can look at this they're
2:51:59great indications of a deep cross
2:52:03identification with at least CIA
2:52:04personnel CIA material a past history of
2:52:09relationships with CIA that you didn't
2:52:12know about it except for the
2:52:14psychological profile and I can't help
2:52:17him saying but the similarity between
2:52:19that contention and I do not doubt it by
2:52:23US Director CIA is remarkably similar to
2:52:26the contention with the president that
2:52:27he didn't know all about
2:52:34well now let's halt a minute
2:52:43when we looked into these various
2:52:45relationships of these individuals with
2:52:48the agency we turned over to the FBI
2:52:53everything that we were able to
2:52:54establish about this now therefore I
2:53:00assume that what you're saying is that
2:53:05somehow I should have gotten to these
2:53:09fellows who were in jail and asked them
2:53:13each one of them what he'd been up to
2:53:15well it didn't seem to me that that was
2:53:17my function sir law enforcement
2:53:20authorities the FBI was conducting an
2:53:22investigation there were the proper
2:53:24authorities to do this and quite frankly
2:53:26I if I think I had intruded into this
2:53:28matter at that time would have been an
2:53:30improper actor that's almost precisely
2:53:31what mr. Ehrlichman and mr. Haldeman
2:53:33tell us that may be sick but you had
2:53:38people in the CIA that you later learned
2:53:40had supplied these wigs and
2:53:43voice-altering devices and cameras and
2:53:45processing equipment and aliases and
2:53:47forged documents did you go to the
2:53:50people inside the CIA and find out how
2:53:52come they did it and for what purpose
2:53:54you say it was not for the Ellsberg
2:53:56thing I'm consumed by curiosity what
2:53:58else was going on what was it eautiful
2:54:00but Senator Baker all of this is in your
2:54:02record all of these memoranda all of the
2:54:05inquiry of these various individuals in
2:54:07the CIA you have it there
2:54:09I'm stacks you know part of that record
2:54:12tells me what those things were used for
2:54:14if we exclude the Ellsberg situation I
2:54:17don't know what they were useful what
2:54:19I'm saying is why don't you know why
2:54:21didn't you find out because I thought
2:54:25frankly that when these individuals have
2:54:27been arrested that that was the FBI's
2:54:29job and so did the White House wasn't it
2:54:33the FBI's job well maybe it was but I've
2:54:38used the analogy once or twice and I
2:54:40feel a little ill at ease using it if I
2:54:43had someone on mice
2:54:44who was caught red-handed robbing a
2:54:46jewelry store or let alone the
2:54:48Democratic National Committee
2:54:49headquarters and I read about it in the
2:54:51newspaper then or later I have a hunch
2:54:54that I would have jumped up and down and
2:54:55screamed until I found out what happened
2:54:58I have no reason to question that you
2:55:06might have said but I have no reason to
2:55:08question that you might have to and
2:55:10that's why I'm asking why you didn't
2:55:11because I have a great admiration for
2:55:14you mr. towns I think you are an
2:55:15extraordinary citizen I think you've
2:55:17done extraordinary service for your
2:55:19country you know I'd like to be worthy
2:55:24of your comments senator Baker and I
2:55:26trust that I am but at the time that
2:55:30these men were arrested it did not seem
2:55:34to me that it was a proper thing for me
2:55:36to get into that affair as to why they
2:55:38had been arrested or their past it just
2:55:40didn't seem like a big event at the time
2:55:42oh it was it was a big event but it did
2:55:44not seem to me that it was a proper job
2:55:46for me to undertake to investigate how
2:55:48they had gotten there or why they'd been
2:55:50arrested all right lest I be
2:55:51misunderstood in this Jim say mr.
2:55:54ambassador I now continue to have and
2:55:58nothing I've asked you by way of testing
2:56:00the situation by your evidence should
2:56:04imply anything to the contrary I
2:56:05continue to have an enormous respect and
2:56:08admiration for you for what you've done
2:56:09and what you will do and I appreciate
2:56:12your testimony thank you one question
2:56:16couldn't you couldn't you reason you
2:56:18know did you draw the conclusion that if
2:56:21you don't undertake them to investigate
2:56:23the burglarizing of the Watergate that
2:56:26that would have been inconsistent with
2:56:27the prohibition of the hack on which you
2:56:29operate that you have the CIA has no
2:56:32function in respect to internal security
2:56:39I'm talking about investigating his own
2:56:42staff within his own organization and
2:56:44that's
2:56:44we doesn't violate any domestic security
2:56:48program but didn't you testify that you
2:56:51did investigate it inside of the
2:56:53Cheyenne turned over the information FBI
2:56:55and yes sir and also you have it in the
2:56:57records of this committee On June 17
2:57:111972 was Mr Hunt a member of the CIA the
2:57:19part of the CIA no he was not with mr.
2:57:21Liddy a part of the CIA
2:57:22no mr. Barker part of the CIA no senator
2:57:25was mr. McCord a part of the CIA no sir
2:57:28was mr. Martinez a part of the CIA
2:57:32mr. Martinez was getting a retainer of
2:57:35$100 a month on a fiduciary relationship
2:57:39he was not a staff employee of the CEO
2:57:41which which operation was down in
2:57:43Florida insofar as screening those
2:57:45persons coming over from Cuba and
2:57:47ascertaining as to whether or not they
2:57:49should be would be half of intelligence
2:57:52value yes sir mr. Sturges was he a
2:57:55member of the CIA no sir not at that
2:57:57time mr. Gonzales is he a member the CIA
2:57:59no sir mr. Baldwin is he a member the
2:58:03CIA no sir
2:58:06debarker was he a member the CIA no sir
2:58:11so America the only member of the CIA in
2:58:14all of these matters on June 17th 1972
2:58:19was mr. Martinez who was on a hundred
2:58:23dollar retainer down in Florida relative
2:58:25to the screening of Cuban exiles
2:58:27that's correct
2:58:34and you did you turn over the records of
2:58:37these men to the FBI yes sir when as
2:58:42soon as well I don't know the precise
2:58:45dates but the FBI started inquiring of
2:58:49the agency about the backgrounds of
2:58:51these men as soon as the men have been
2:58:53arrested and we started providing the
2:58:55information from that day
2:59:13I can't if I understand the analogy and
2:59:18I'm not sure that I do but perhaps your
2:59:22ideas then that because there was
2:59:24visible former CIA employees and not
2:59:27present CIA employees that that some way
2:59:31would relieve you of responsibility you
2:59:34might otherwise have
2:59:35is that a fair yes I think so I think
2:59:38mr. Thompson that I should make it clear
2:59:41because I was asked at another hearing
2:59:43one time when an individual resigns or
2:59:48retires from the CIA that's the end of
2:59:50his identification with the agency as
2:59:53far as we're concerned certainly under
2:59:54American laws one has no way of keeping
2:59:58a string on people like this so when
3:00:00they walk out the door they turn in
3:00:02their badge and their employment where
3:00:04the agency is finished unless some sort
3:00:06of a contractual or fiduciary
3:00:08relationship is established with it this
3:00:10was not the case with these others
3:00:12except for Martinez I can see that and
3:00:16as long as we're talking about analogy
3:00:17I'm not reaching any conclusion but just
3:00:19really thinking aloud for the same token
3:00:23there were no present White House
3:00:25employees involved in the break-in even
3:00:27they were also former employees so if we
3:00:31have an analogy I imagine analysis still
3:00:33holds up thank you
3:00:43you'll be back at 2 o'clock
3:00:46we are recessed two o'clock the counter
3:00:54the committee broke for lunch just as
3:00:56the questioning started to reveal
3:00:58differences between some committee
3:01:00members public televisions coverage of
3:01:02the Senate hearings will continue after
3:01:04we paused for station identification
3:01:06unabridged coverage of these hearings is
3:01:09provided as a public service by the
3:01:10member stations of PBS the Public
3:01:13Broadcasting Service impact continues
3:01:21its coverage of hearings but a Senate
3:01:23Select Committee on presidential
3:01:25campaign activities here again
3:01:27correspondent Robert MacNeil as we pick
3:01:30up the testimony again assistant chief
3:01:32counsel David Dawson is questioning
3:01:34Richard Helms the committee will come to
3:01:39order
3:01:39and counsel Thank You mr. chairman the
3:01:54normal contact from the White House to
3:01:58the CIA dr. Kissinger was there much
3:02:03contact between mr. Ehrlichman or mr.
3:02:06Haldeman and the CIA there was some of
3:02:09course not nearly as much there was more
3:02:11with mr. Ehrlichman and there was with
3:02:12mr. Haldeman can you give some give us
3:02:15some idea the number of contacts between
3:02:18mr. Ehrlichman and the CIA during the
3:02:20time you were director but that would be
3:02:22difficult to mr. Council because I don't
3:02:27know any way to come up with a statistic
3:02:29I suppose that I've had a dozen or so
3:02:33contacts within myself over
3:02:36three or four years and where many of
3:02:38these requests for information or
3:02:39requests that the CIA do something
3:02:41whether were a variety of things there
3:02:43were meetings I attended that mr.
3:02:45Ehrlichman called I recall one
3:02:49particular activity when the White House
3:02:53was redoing the method of classification
3:02:55of documents and devising some new
3:02:58procedures for declassifying documents
3:03:01there were some meetings in order to
3:03:03rewrite these regulations and I remember
3:03:05attending at least one the may have been
3:03:06to now in connection with the request in
3:03:11July of 1971 for the CIA to furnish
3:03:14supports for mr. hunt
3:03:17as your understanding is it not that mr.
3:03:20Ehrlichman contacted General Cushman is
3:03:22that correct
3:03:22that was my distinct impression and in
3:03:25June of 1972 when you were at the
3:03:30meeting in mr. ehrlichman's office am i
3:03:33correct that it was miss general Walters
3:03:35who was asked to go to Patrick gray by
3:03:38mr. Ehrlichman he was asked by mr.
3:03:40Haldeman
3:03:40Sooni by mr. Haldeman yes did you make
3:03:43any connection then or subsequently
3:03:45concerning the fact that the two
3:03:48deputies who were asked to participate
3:03:50in the fashion described were both
3:03:52military men well I didn't know whether
3:03:56it had to do with the fact they're a
3:03:57military
3:03:58there are particular appointees of this
3:04:01administration or Jax just exactly when
3:04:03they're old friends and therefore seem
3:04:05to be easier to deal with am i ray don't
3:04:06know which of these considerations loom
3:04:08the largest now were you aware prior to
3:04:16the May 22nd 1972 announcement by the
3:04:20president of the organization known as
3:04:23the plumbers or the fact that there was
3:04:25such an organization in the White House
3:04:27you mean the May 22 1973 excuse me 73
3:04:31I've never heard of a plumbers unit were
3:04:35you familiar with an investigative unit
3:04:36in the White House I didn't know there
3:04:38was any unit in the White House that was
3:04:40actively carrying out if you like
3:04:43burglaries or activist activities of
3:04:45this kind now with respect to the
3:04:50material supply to Howard hunt you
3:04:55referred to the wig as a fairly famous
3:04:58item was the wig that was applied to mr.
3:05:03hunt by the CIA the same wig allegedly
3:05:07worn by hunt the red wig when he saw
3:05:11Dida beard I've been told in recent
3:05:14times that the wig provided by the
3:05:17agency was a brunette wig it was a dark
3:05:21hair anyway and that so the agency
3:05:25technicians rather resented the fact
3:05:27that the red wig had been tied into the
3:05:29CIA because it was such a lousy fit
3:05:41mr. Helms ambassador Helms are you
3:05:43familiar with the memorandum which there
3:05:47was a covering routing slip from general
3:05:50Cushman to you with the date August 23
3:05:531971 on it yes seriously this is indeed
3:05:59the memorandum as you showed me that's
3:06:00correct and I just like to have you
3:06:07identify it
3:06:07please cameras
3:06:14[Applause]
3:06:19yes I am familiar with a memorandum soon
3:06:24because I like the Ambassador and hold
3:06:26it for another minute and is that
3:06:27memorandum the memorandum in chief if I
3:06:32if I may use that expression deal with
3:06:33the request of mr. hunt for the
3:06:36Secretary to which you referred earlier
3:06:41yes and there's a portion of the routing
3:06:45slip is that a portion of that in your
3:06:47handwriting yes there is and could you
3:06:50read the routing slip to us please
3:06:52including the portion which I understand
3:06:54is in general Cushman's handwriting and
3:06:56the portion that is in your handwriting
3:06:57the part that is in general Cushman's
3:07:00handwriting appears first it says FYI
3:07:03and guidance on how to handle and then
3:07:08general Cushman's initial appears I note
3:07:11back to him says if Hunt renews the
3:07:14request please let me know and I'll
3:07:17speak to Ehrlichman about it or rather
3:07:20they speak too early but at once these
3:07:22Xeroxes are not famously good mr.
3:07:26chairman with the committee's permission
3:07:28I would like to have that received in
3:07:29evidence without objection it will be
3:07:33marked appropriate as an exhibit
3:07:36received in evidence as such
3:07:43bastard Helms this morning you were
3:07:47shown or it was read to you the
3:07:51memorandum dated August 31 1971 I would
3:07:56like to show you a copy of that at this
3:07:58point and to refresh your recollection
3:08:04this is the one that deals well with
3:08:07states I called John Ehrlichman Friday
3:08:09and explain why we could not meet these
3:08:11requests I indicated Hunt was becoming a
3:08:14pain in the neck John said he would
3:08:16restrain hunt it's signed by general
3:08:19Cushman and you wrote good is that
3:08:20correct yes sir I direct your attention
3:08:22to the last typewritten page of that
3:08:25memorandum and I read you number three I
3:08:29told mr. and the name is blanked out at
3:08:31request of the CIA that mr. hunts latest
3:08:35requests drew us even further into the
3:08:37sensitive area of domestic operations
3:08:39against Americans and that all such
3:08:41requests should be referred to general
3:08:43Cushman's office meanwhile these
3:08:45requests should not be met and there's a
3:08:48signature initials D DCI which
3:08:51represents a position in the CIA what
3:08:55does that paragraph mean I don't know
3:08:58what this gentleman had reference to it
3:09:00is signed by the executive assistant to
3:09:03the Deputy Director and what he was
3:09:05referring to there I have no idea
3:09:06I heard of no specific Americans being
3:09:09involved
3:09:10that time do you have any knowledge of
3:09:12domestic operations against Americans no
3:09:15sir I don't know what he had in mind
3:09:24in your conversations with Sumi mr.
3:09:28chairman this I believe has been
3:09:29received in evidence and copies were
3:09:31supplied this morning of both and each
3:09:37senator had exceed the copy this morning
3:09:40do you know what general Cushman was
3:09:43told concerning mr. hunts operations
3:09:46I don't specifically mr. Council all I
3:09:51recall was what I said this morning that
3:09:53when hunt came to him and asked for this
3:09:56assistance he said it was for a one-time
3:09:59interview and do you know whether the
3:10:04camera that was given to mr. hunt was
3:10:09returned to the CIA prior to September
3:10:153rd 1971 which has been given as the
3:10:18date of the burglary I don't know I have
3:10:20heard it said that the camera was not
3:10:24returned but that's really hearsay I'm
3:10:27not sure that that was accurate
3:10:28information but it was somehow my
3:10:30impression that he did not return this
3:10:32equipment question the records of the
3:10:34CIA I believe the camera was returned
3:10:37but the recorder was not was it but you
3:10:41have this in the record stone that is
3:10:43what I think it should be in the records
3:10:44of the committee because I don't think
3:10:45this show should depend on my memory
3:10:47it's a relevant fact and I would like to
3:10:49identify myself with what the record
3:10:52shows very good is ambassador now
3:10:54earlier you were asked by Senator
3:10:56Talmadge whether you were asked by the
3:10:59White House concerning mr. hunt in terms
3:11:03of supplying a reference and you
3:11:05indicated that you were not so consulted
3:11:08what reference would you have given you
3:11:09pass
3:11:11well that's a terribly difficult
3:11:12question
3:11:13asked me in July our August of 1973
3:11:18after all the evidence that's been
3:11:20brought forward I think that what would
3:11:28have been in my mind at the time was to
3:11:31wonder why they wanted him and what his
3:11:35talents were that they wanted to avail
3:11:36themselves of and I think my answer
3:11:38would have been largely dependent on
3:11:40what they told me am I correct that in
3:11:42the last year's of mr. hunts service
3:11:45with the CIA he was given a somewhat
3:11:47different assignment than he had before
3:11:51yes I believe that in his recent years
3:11:54there he was stationed in Washington for
3:11:56one thing and but precisely what his
3:11:58duties were at the time I don't know but
3:11:59they were not particularly operational
3:12:01but as I explained this morning he was
3:12:03having some family difficulties and so
3:12:05forth and he was trying to work these
3:12:08out as well as do his job and so on so
3:12:11that I can only assume that we were
3:12:17taking these human factors into
3:12:19consideration and had assigned him at a
3:12:22place where he can commentate himself
3:12:24did a question arise at a later time as
3:12:28to whether in fact mr. Ehrlichman had
3:12:31communicated to the CIA with respect to
3:12:33Mr Hunt
3:12:35yes and not terribly long ago it seems
3:12:40to me that it was at the end of last
3:12:44year that and I would like to say mr.
3:12:51chairman that I believe that there is in
3:12:53your record paper which will give the
3:12:58precise dates and details about these
3:13:00things but my recollection is that
3:13:03sometime in
3:13:05November I guess it was November or
3:13:07December of 1972 mr. William Coley and
3:13:11mr. John Warner of the agency visited
3:13:16mr. Henry Peterson at the Justice
3:13:19Department and I believe mr. Peterson
3:13:21had mr. Earl Silbert with him and
3:13:23perhaps two or three other people I'm
3:13:24not sure who all the individuals were
3:13:26and during this meeting they were going
3:13:30over some material having to do with
3:13:31Howard hunt and the question came up
3:13:34about who had got who had arranged for
3:13:36Howard hunt to get assistance from the
3:13:38agency and mr. Colby identified the
3:13:42individual in the White House's mr.
3:13:43Ehrlichman as best I recall it some days
3:13:48go by and one day I got a call from mr.
3:13:50Dean who said that he had understood
3:13:54that it had been stated to mr. Peterson
3:13:57that mr. Ehrlichman was the man who had
3:13:59sponsored mr. hunt and that mr.
3:14:04Ehrlichman didn't remember this and I
3:14:07could there be some confusion my
3:14:10recollection of the conversation was
3:14:11that I said I general Cushman was the
3:14:14one who had dealt with this matter and
3:14:16that I thought they could get the
3:14:18information from him mr. Dean then said
3:14:21he thought there ought to be a meeting
3:14:23to discuss this and I said fine but be
3:14:25sure that you have general Cushman at
3:14:27the meeting then subsequent to that
3:14:30telephone call a meeting was called in
3:14:32mr. ehrlichman's office about this
3:14:36matter I went to this meeting with mr.
3:14:39Colby since mr. Colby had had the
3:14:41conversation with mr. Petersen and we
3:14:44found in mr. Lincoln's office mr.
3:14:46Ehrlichman mr. Dean and there were the
3:14:47two of us the general Cushman was not
3:14:49there mr. Colby was asked to explain
3:14:54when he had had to say and he did so mr.
3:14:58Ehrlichman as I recall it said that he
3:15:00didn't remember these conversations or
3:15:02this Congress
3:15:03with the general Cushman the median net
3:15:07ended up in a rather unsatisfactory
3:15:08manner because the only person that
3:15:11could have been helpful and this was
3:15:12general and at the very end mr.
3:15:15Ehrlichman said well why don't you have
3:15:17general Cushman call me he asked mr.
3:15:21Colby to do this and I verified - mr.
3:15:23Colby that was to call general Cushman
3:15:26and let him know now also if memory
3:15:29serves when I got that first telephone
3:15:32call from mr. Dean I believe I
3:15:34instructed mr. Colby to tell general
3:15:36Cushman this meeting might be coming up
3:15:38so that he would be prepared for it was
3:15:42there any reason given why mr. why
3:15:44general Cushman was not at the meeting
3:15:45there was no reason given that I recall
3:15:47and general Cushman to be the person
3:15:51most familiar with the question on how
3:15:53namely who called he was really the only
3:15:55one that could verify it now during the
3:15:59recess we did look at one or more
3:16:02records and discover that the first
3:16:05transmission from the CIA to the FBI
3:16:07occurred on June 20th 1973 would that be
3:16:11consistent with your recollection 1972
3:16:13sir if it was it was in 72 this would
3:16:16have been it does and it corresponds to
3:16:19my recollection is mentioned in this
3:16:21morning's testimony when I said that as
3:16:23soon as the FBI started asking his
3:16:24questions about these people we began
3:16:26replying so that would track very well
3:16:30with respect to general Walters
3:16:33memoranda on the subject of how they
3:16:37represent your recollection as well as
3:16:40general Walters recollection could you
3:16:43please stay to us again what contact you
3:16:46had in terms of reading them or speaking
3:16:49to general Walters before he wrote them
3:16:55well when general walters and i decided
3:17:00that there should be a memorandum for
3:17:02the record of these various meetings and
3:17:04conversations if i recall it he wrote
3:17:08several on the same day
3:17:10in other words EU was catching up he
3:17:14wrote the meeting of the 23rd and i
3:17:15think he wrote his meeting with Abdeen
3:17:18with on the 26th and on the 27th and
3:17:22there may be another memorandum it
3:17:24certainly is all of your record there
3:17:26but in any event he was writing them all
3:17:28to catch up and then i began to believe
3:17:30after that he began to write member and
3:17:33for the record assumes he'd had a
3:17:34meeting so this wasn't necessary any
3:17:36longer i don't recall how carefully I
3:17:39read these various memoranda because
3:17:41he'd reported to me the contents of
3:17:43these meeting orally each time and I
3:17:45didn't feel at that juncture as I recall
3:17:47it constrained to read through every
3:17:49line to be sure that this was exactly
3:17:51what he told me in other words I was not
3:17:52distrustful his record but you did
3:17:55peruse them to the extent of making sure
3:17:57that they were generally accurate is
3:17:59that correct I think so yes and before
3:18:01general Walters wrote each memorandum he
3:18:03had already articulated to you almost
3:18:07immediately after the meeting the
3:18:09circumstances of what occurred at each
3:18:11meetings act now there was some question
3:18:14this morning as to whether or not the
3:18:19president's name was invoked during the
3:18:21June 23rd 1972 meeting and I believe
3:18:26it's your best recollection that it was
3:18:28not is that correct yes that's correct
3:18:31general Wallace as I recall the language
3:18:33is Mara and said something about it is
3:18:35the president's wish I did not recall
3:18:37that language having been used when for
3:18:40the first time did you take note of your
3:18:43difference with the general Walter's
3:18:47memorandum I believe we discussed that
3:18:49even at the time as to just exactly how
3:18:52this had been put so that was one
3:18:54instance in where you saw fit to I'm
3:18:56afraid there is a disagreement even now
3:18:58between this is two I just
3:19:01this was worded but in in other words
3:19:02you did discuss possible disagreements
3:19:04in the subject matter of the memoranda
3:19:06even and I think he felt at the time
3:19:08that since this was just a memorandum to
3:19:10jog his memory and so forth that there
3:19:12was no reason to put down that we had a
3:19:13difference or to re-edit the language to
3:19:15read ich tape the memorandum it's very
3:19:18interesting mr. council a lot of
3:19:20memoranda funded known then what one
3:19:22knows now would have been compiled more
3:19:24carefully the language would have been
3:19:26more judicious that would have been a
3:19:27lot of things happened that didn't
3:19:29happen well well thank you for the
3:19:30memoranda that we do have mr. ambassador
3:19:35now one question that I think is quite
3:19:37important I believe you testified that
3:19:41you were asked whether there was during
3:19:43the same June 23rd meeting as to whether
3:19:46there was any involvement by the CIA in
3:19:50the Watergate is that correct were you
3:19:55so asked that yes I believe I was mister
3:19:57counsel and you replied no yes
3:20:00now before mr. Haldeman turned to
3:20:04general Walters and told him to go and
3:20:06speak to Patrick ray was any question
3:20:10directed at you or general Walters as to
3:20:14whether further investigation by the CIA
3:20:18might uncover assets or operations of
3:20:21the CIA in further investigation of the
3:20:23FBI the FBI might uncover assets or
3:20:27operations of the CIA in Mexico I don't
3:20:31recall that this point was ever put to
3:20:35either of us in the form of a question
3:20:37it was my recollection and is my
3:20:40recollection that general Walters was
3:20:42asked to go and speak to mr. gray about
3:20:45this because there was the possibility
3:20:47that it might run into CIA operations I
3:20:49was not asked whether it
3:20:51wouldn't did you comment one way the
3:20:54other at that meeting as to whether you
3:20:56whether you thought it might uncover
3:20:58such operations was there any discussion
3:21:00of that subject I'm sorry mister counsel
3:21:03I don't recall on me at any time did the
3:21:10CIA announced that it was conducting an
3:21:13investigation into the Watergate
3:21:16announced that it was conduct yes no
3:21:19you're in a public announced yet
3:21:21was there any decision made within the
3:21:23CIA that there would be an investigation
3:21:26of the Watergate or is the opposite true
3:21:29I'm talking about any CIA discussions as
3:21:32to whether there would be an independent
3:21:33investigation by the CIA and I'm not
3:21:35trying to be picky when we talk about
3:21:36Watergate now we're talking about the
3:21:38burglary right I'm talking about the
3:21:39burglar yes there was no public
3:21:42announcement we simply did as I
3:21:43indicated this morning and that is
3:21:45checked with the various people that
3:21:46have had to do with the burglary check
3:21:49on their records check with others that
3:21:51have had dealings with him to be sure
3:21:52what their status was and all the rest
3:21:55of it and am I correct that there were a
3:21:56number of quite numerous amount of
3:22:00communications between the CIA and the
3:22:03FBI in the Justice Department
3:22:06many and to your knowledge was any
3:22:09relevant information withheld from the
3:22:12CIA for by the CIA to the FBI the
3:22:15Justice Department information that you
3:22:17were aware of while the events were
3:22:23taking place in June July or August in
3:22:261972 sir I don't believe so does the
3:22:31record show that the the
3:22:33I'm not suggesting that at all I'm mr.
3:22:35ambassador I'm just asking for your
3:22:36knowledge I have no knowledge of the
3:22:38contrary well I I don't either so but I
3:22:41just wanted to be sure that my
3:22:43recollection tracked with the facts
3:22:51senator Baker mr. Chairman I have no
3:22:53further questions Thank You mr. Thompson
3:23:00mr. ambassador
3:23:02did General Walters indicates you to
3:23:05indicate to you between the time of June
3:23:08the 23rd and June the 28th that he was
3:23:12in any way concerned about the propriety
3:23:14of the request or order that mr. Hall
3:23:18would have given him
3:23:24I don't know whether we you ever
3:23:28mentioned the propriety of it I think
3:23:30that in fact I'm sure that we discussed
3:23:34why the request was being made we'd been
3:23:37asked to do it what was behind it we
3:23:40didn't have the information to put
3:23:41together at that time and I'm sure as
3:23:44associates would we were you know
3:23:46expressing wonderment to each other's to
3:23:48what was what this was all about do you
3:23:52know why for example he waited until
3:23:56June the 28:28 to prepare this
3:24:02memorandum which we've been referring to
3:24:04where he sets all these things away 25
3:24:07days in order to do that mr. Thompson I
3:24:10don't know and but he will certainly be
3:24:13able to testify to that but didn't
3:24:14discuss this but as I indicated this
3:24:17morning I don't remember any more which
3:24:20one of us was the one that decided or
3:24:23whether we just agreed in the
3:24:24conversation together after the request
3:24:27from Dean for the agency to provide bail
3:24:30or salaries for the breakers in or in
3:24:34breakers or whatever they are that at
3:24:36that time it seemed desirable to put
3:24:39some of this on the record because this
3:24:41was getting a bit far afield and into a
3:24:43rather strange area we thought and that
3:24:45these various meetings that ought to be
3:24:47caught up and I think that's the reason
3:24:50that on the same day he did the several
3:24:52at the same time in between the time of
3:24:54your conversational 23rd at the time he
3:24:57prepared this memorandum Dean had
3:25:00contacted him three times had he not in
3:25:0326 27 28 days Monday Tuesday Wednesday
3:25:06anyway I believe that's right yeah so
3:25:08would you could you say about that time
3:25:10then that he had become he had become
3:25:14concerned about the matter and was
3:25:17covering his tracks so to speak well you
3:25:19see mr. Thompson I I wish you'd help me
3:25:26with the point here
3:25:27it is my recollection contrary to what
3:25:30those memoranda show that it was on
3:25:32Tuesday the second meeting with mr. Dean
3:25:35that mr. Dean made mentioned bail and
3:25:37salaries whereas general waters
3:25:40memorandum indicates that that comes on
3:25:42the Monday and because my recollection
3:25:45is that it came on the Tuesday that it
3:25:47was after that that I said we agreed
3:25:49that he should write these memoranda and
3:25:51therefore he wrote the first to them on
3:25:53the very next day I don't know whether
3:25:59his memory not over is there may be some
3:26:03difference between the memorandum and an
3:26:05interview my understanding was frankly
3:26:07but on the 26th Dean had asked him if
3:26:10there was any way that the FB the CIA
3:26:13could possibly be involved and whether
3:26:16or not the CIA could could have been
3:26:18involved without law of his knowledge
3:26:19and then the following day on the 27th
3:26:23mentioning the witnesses involved and
3:26:26whether or not salary could be paid them
3:26:29and bail money could be raised and on
3:26:32the 28th just as more general discussion
3:26:34as to whether or not mr. general Boggs
3:26:36had any any ideas as as to how the
3:26:39matter could be his memory may
3:26:41straighten that out and how I don't know
3:26:44but the reason that I cling to my
3:26:49recollection in this particular case is
3:26:51that the question of bail and salaries
3:26:53hit me rather hard I've made an
3:26:57impression on me and it was that which I
3:26:59believe motivated us to say you better
3:27:01start getting this in the record and I
3:27:03think that happened on the Tuesday which
3:27:05I believe is the 27th and therefore he
3:27:07would have been writing these memorandum
3:27:08there and I know it's difficult to
3:27:12conclude what another man was thinking
3:27:14I assume you were talking to him from
3:27:16time to time might we conclude then that
3:27:18it was not so much the 23rd meeting the
3:27:21in and of itself but the subsequent
3:27:23contact with Dean that inspired him to
3:27:27put the matter in writing yes I think
3:27:29that's right is the combination of this
3:27:31thank you sir I have a question are
3:27:34there other questions of the witness if
3:27:37there are no other questions mr.
3:27:39Chalmers on behalf of the committee may
3:27:40I thank you for your appearance you
3:27:43reiterate we have some appreciation of
3:27:45the inconvenience that it may have
3:27:46caused you we are grateful for your
3:27:49testimony and wish you good luck Thank
3:27:53You mr. chair and I thank the committee
3:27:54for its consideration thank you sir when
3:27:56counsel called the next witness please
3:28:00general question the next witness is
3:28:07Marine Corps commandant Robert Cushman
3:28:09who was deputy director of the CIA in
3:28:111971 when the agency provided assistance
3:28:14to e Howard hunt fisherman is 58 years
3:28:17old and a graduate of the Naval Academy
3:28:19he was an aide to then Vice President
3:28:21Nixon from 1957 to 1961 here in the Navy
3:28:25Cross the Legion of Merit and the Bronze
3:28:27Star during World War two
3:28:28President Nixon named him to hit the
3:28:30Marine Corps last year

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