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Revolut vale quase 2x Nubank. Por que aposta tanto no Brasil? — Transcript

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0:00Pix in Brazil is certainly the most
0:02used payment method in day-to-day life.
0:04It doesn't generate revenue; it's just
0:06a facilitator. I sold in two weeks what
0:08I had projected to do in three months
0:10with credit cards. Winning in Brazil
0:12means proving a highly relevant
0:14business case. I think that in this
0:16future, it will be a fight for consent.
0:18The Brazilian financial market has
0:20produced a phenomenon over the last 10
0:22years. It transformed banks into
0:24technology companies. Nubank has become
0:27one of the largest banks in Latin
0:28America. Inter stopped being just a
0:31digital bank to build an ecosystem. Pix
0:34changed the logic of payments. And
0:37while all this was happening, a fintech
0:39was growing far from the Brazilian
0:41spotlight. Revolut was born in London
0:44to solve a simple problem: spending and
0:46moving money around the world without
0:48the constraints of traditional banks.
0:51Today it is worth about 115 billion
0:53dollars, has tens of millions of
0:55customers, and is already worth almost
0:58double Nubank. Present in more than 130
1:01regions, what did it see in the
1:02Brazilian market that made it put the
1:04country on its global priority list?
1:07Another Money M begins now, discovering
1:09what is behind the great minds of the
1:11market. To answer this and many other
1:18questions, we are now speaking with
1:20Glauber Mota, CEO of Revolut Brazil.
1:23Thank you, Glauber, for participating
1:25and explaining a little more about the
1:27company to those who follow Money Times
1:28.
1:29It is a pleasure to be here with you
1:30today.
1:31And Carol Lab, our editor-in-chief here
1:32at Money Times. Carol, here once again.
1:35Welcome.
1:36Thank you for the invitation.
1:38Let's go then. Glauber, I wanted to
1:40start. Sure, first of all, I would like
1:43you to explain a little more what
1:44Revolut is for those who don't know it.
1:48Revolut likes to present itself as a
1:50truly global bank, already present in
1:52more than 40 countries with the
1:54ambition to reach 100, to solve the
1:56financial lives of individuals and
1:58companies and everything they need in
2:00banking, and sometimes even beyond.
2:05Today, we have a complete solution that
2:07for a long time was called a super app,
2:10but we like to see it as a financial
2:12facilitator in fact, where people can
2:15solve their day-to-day things, when
2:17traveling, access to credit,
2:19investments, diversification abroad,
2:21even hotel booking solutions,
2:23exchanging points for airline miles on
2:26any airline in the world, and
2:29experiences that were previously
2:31exclusive to those who had access to
2:34premium credit cards can now also be
2:36accessed by those who choose any of our
2:38benefit plans. So, I think it's a
2:41combination of things that could still
2:44be called a super-app, but we like to
2:46be a truly global bank.
2:48That's cool. And Revolut grew a lot in
2:51developed markets. I'd like you to talk
2:53a bit now about, you’ve been in
2:55Brazil for 3 years, right? A little bit
2:57more.
2:57The product has been launched for a
2:59little over 3 years. That's right.
3:00What led you there? What is your bet,
3:03right? Is Brazil a growth bet or is it
3:06a strategy, let's say, for the
3:08company's future?
3:10There are two ways to look at Brazil in
3:12the context of Revolut Global. First,
3:14to reach 100 countries, Brazil has to
3:16be included, as it’s one of the
3:17world's largest economies, with an
3:19audience interested in new technologies
3:21and that likes to test new things. So,
3:24first, it's a great laboratory for two
3:26reasons: the customers 'appetite and
3:28because Brazil created a payment
3:29infrastructure that is now a benchmark
3:31worldwide. Uh-huh.
3:34Our instant payments, the way we
3:35approached Open Finance which is
3:37constantly evolving, this teaches and
3:40brings benefits to the rest of Revolut
3:42Global. But from an individual market
3:45opportunity point of view, Brazil is
3:47also recognized as one of the most
3:48competitive markets in the world. Other
3:51big digital-native houses were born
3:54here, and large incumbents have also
3:56modernized to compete better. So, like
4:00it or not, winning in Brazil means
4:02proving a very relevant business case.
4:05And for Revolut, which wants to be
4:06present in so many countries and be a
4:08world reference, Brazil couldn't be
4:09left out.
4:10Perfect. And is the Brazilian operation
4:13already profitable, has it reached
4:15break-even? I wanted you to talk a bit
4:17about the operation.
4:18Some numbers are not public yet, but I
4:20can say the following. Revolut's
4:22operating model, by definition, reaches
4:26break-even faster. I will try to
4:28explain this in different ways.
4:30We have two companies in Brazil: a
4:32technology company and a financial
4:34institution regulated by the Central
4:35Bank. Together, they have approximately
4:39250 people, most of whom are in this
4:41technology company, which today
4:43develops for Brazil, but also exports
4:46talent to other units around the world.
4:49So, by itself and by definition, since
4:51you have to have service contracts with
4:52these entities, this company is
4:54profitable by definition; it is born at
4:56break-even. The service and transaction
5:00product obviously has a curve to become
5:02profitable, but this other technology
5:04base helps sustain the business model.
5:07And since our strategy involves a bit
5:10less balance sheet risk at the start,
5:12being more transactional, it also
5:14begins with a more controlled margin.
5:18So the business is very focused on
5:20being sustainable from the short term,
5:22focusing on unit economics, until it
5:24reaches a relevant scale to stand on
5:26its own two feet. So I think it's fair
5:29to say that Revolut pays for itself
5:31faster than the average startup.
5:34And what is the number you look at and
5:36think? If we reach this, let's say,
5:40Brazil has become a truly relevant
5:43business in the company's global system
5:45.
5:46I love that question, because whenever
5:48people try to make analogies, they try
5:50to compare it with the Brazilian market
5:51and its peers here.
5:53Uh-huh.
5:53And you have to respect the differences
5:55in business models as well. Today,
5:58comparable competitors are often
6:00operating in credit for small and
6:02medium-sized businesses, or in credit
6:04for individuals who are at the
6:06beginning of their financial journey
6:08and perhaps don't have the opportunity
6:11to work with investments yet, and are
6:13very focused on short-term credit needs
6:15. On the other hand, there is also the
6:19super high-income profile, which is
6:21already accustomed to more bespoke
6:23service, an officer to meet their needs
6:26. I would say that by excluding this
6:29base of the pyramid and the top of the
6:31pyramid for now, I already serve this
6:33segment of the Brazilian population
6:35well that likes high-quality service,
6:37is concerned about price, but also
6:39wants to enjoy benefits that were only
6:41accessible to the ultra-wealthy and now
6:43they can have with us.
6:45Uh-huh. So, in that sense, we are a
6:47slightly different player than the
6:49others, even though the media likes to
6:52compare us directly with the famous
6:54names in the local market.
6:58Taking advantage of the fact that you
6:59brought up this topic, Revolut recently
7:01reached a valuation of 115 billion
7:03dollars, and of course people took the
7:04opportunity to compare it, as it's
7:06practically double that of Nubank.
7:09Uh-huh.
7:09By the way, what do you think when this
7:11comparison is made between Nubank and
7:13Revolut? With Nubank? You must be tired
7:16of this comparison already.
7:18In practice, it’s like this: there is
7:20no doubt that Nubank is a success story
7:22here in the region. Of its many, many
7:25millions of customers, the vast
7:26majority are in Brazil, and for a long
7:28time it was treated as a benchmark even
7:31for the incumbents that went to do the
7:33same. I actually benefited from the
7:37work Nubank did, because back then,
7:39customers weren't used to trusting
7:41digital accounts from so-called
7:43fintechs, were less accustomed to
7:45handling everything through an app, and
7:48still needed human contact at a branch;
7:50in a way, this education happened
7:52largely to Nubank's own credit. And we
7:57arrived with that barrier already
7:58overcome, bringing and importing
8:00technology that has similarities and
8:02differences, but which took advantage
8:04of that path, that half-way distance
8:06already covered. So we already arrive
8:07in a different competitive environment.
8:09Second, people really like to compare,
8:11but we have business models that have
8:13relevant differences as well. They
8:16generally start in Brazil, established
8:18themselves here to later expand to a
8:21few other locations. So today,
8:24demonstrating this appetite, we chose
8:26to create a methodology that would
8:28allow for immediate growth in a much
8:30larger footprint across many, many
8:32countries, and then deepen our presence
8:34in each one of them, while still being
8:37profitable and, let's say, promising
8:39enough to justify a valuation of this
8:41magnitude. You have to remember that we
8:43don't even do credit yet, right? If you
8:45look at the part of Revolut's balance
8:46sheet that handles credit compared to
8:48the deposit level, it's still very
8:49little compared to the leverage of any
8:51other institution, including Nubank
8:53itself. It means we have a much greater
8:56potential to be unlocked for the future
8:58. And assuming that, in my opinion, we
9:01are just scratching the surface in each
9:03of the countries where we operate,
9:05imagine when we grow, right? And as for
9:07your question, what size should we
9:09become? Is there an optimal point
9:12between the size that, perhaps, Nubank
9:14itself is today and what other market
9:16participants are? Where you focus more
9:19on quality and less on quantity? I
9:22don't have a fixed number, but my real
9:24competitor, I would say, is even
9:26Revolut itself in the various other
9:28countries. Today we have over 75
9:31million customers. We have been growing
9:33by more than 1 million customers per
9:35month, consistently for a long time now
9:37. It is very fast indeed. And if you
9:41divide that among all the countries
9:43where we operate, in fact, you have a
9:45relatively small group of millions of
9:47customers in each of these locations.
9:50So it is not very difficult. to imagine
9:52that Brazil, with the size it has, is a
9:55good candidate to become a top three or
9:57top five for Revolut in the coming
9:59years. And that is my personal ambition
10:01, it is not a company goal, it is much
10:03more what I would like to do with our
10:05project here in Brazil.
10:07Uh-huh. Perfect. So, in what areas do
10:11you believe Revolut is better than
10:13Nubank today? Well, that's a very
10:15direct question comparing us to a
10:17relevant competitor. I don't really
10:19like making those kinds of direct
10:21comparisons, especially given Revolut's
10:23business model. It’s very
10:25product-oriented; we call it "
10:27product-driven," right? In my previous
10:31experience, I always looked at market
10:33segmentation, what competitors were
10:36doing, and how I could do it better.
10:39But at Revolut, I had to relearn how to
10:41think, because the team there is very
10:43focused from the inside out, not the
10:46outside in. It’s about looking at
10:49what product I can develop that makes a
10:51tangible difference in benefit for my
10:52end customer. And then, as a result,
10:55they choose me. So, we look at that
10:57very little. Of course, we follow the
10:59market, but we pay very little
11:00attention to exactly what the
11:01competition is doing. And instead of
11:04setting a metric like "I have to
11:06outperform this specific competitor,"
11:07it's: how can I, internally, build the
11:09best product possible to reach as many
11:11people as possible?
11:14Right? And who would you say is your
11:17main competitor in Brazil? The media
11:19talks a lot about Nubank, and about the
11:21incumbents that have modernized
11:23themselves,
11:24but in practice, I think it depends on
11:26the vertical you want to compare. I
11:28usually joke that in Brazil, it's much
11:30easier to explain it like this. If you
11:33take the digital approach that Nubank
11:35took, the international investment
11:37opportunities that Avenue provided
11:39before being acquired by Itaú.
11:42Uh-huh. The more accessible and
11:44user-friendly exchange work that Wise
11:47did, the access to new digital assets
11:49like the crypto products that other
11:52brokerages and specialized firms have
11:54offered. If you mix all of that
11:56together and spread it across the globe
11:58, that’s what Revolut is doing. So,
12:00it really depends on the business area
12:02you want to compare. I would say we are
12:05a digital-native player
12:06that is bringing customers access to
12:09opportunities they didn't have before.
12:12And to make this tangible for you,
12:14until recently, only a few had access
12:16to the coolest, most premium VIP
12:18airport lounges or relevant point
12:21accumulation to exchange with the best
12:23airlines in the world. Only those with
12:26a very special card had that access?
12:27For example, Bradesco has the Amex
12:29Centurion, the most coveted card, but
12:31it's very inaccessible because it's by
12:34invitation only and has a very high
12:36annual fee of over 20,000 reais. It is
12:39excellent, there's no doubt. But why
12:41not make that much more accessible now?
12:44Our Ultra card has a points system that
12:46is equal to or even slightly better,
12:48given the wide range of airline
12:49partners we have. And customers don’t
12:54need an invite-only credit profile to
12:55be able to participate in this. They
12:57have the option to do this at a much
12:59lower cost by choosing one of our
13:01benefit plans. To give you an example.
13:03So, in this regard, I’m competing
13:05with those premium cards. In foreign
13:07exchange, I’m competing with the
13:09cheaper currency exchange services and
13:10managed to position myself cheaper than
13:12all of them. As for payments. That’s
13:16where I’m competing with most
13:17incumbents and local Brazilian digital
13:19banks that offer Pix, pay bills, and
13:20handle people's daily needs. But I want
13:24to do all of these at once, delivering
13:26value to the customer and fighting to
13:28be recognized as the best solution for
13:30each one.
13:32It seems to me that when we talk about
13:34fintechs, I think the first name that
13:36really comes to mind is Nubank. I think
13:39that's why there's that comparison, but
13:42from what you said, we can notice
13:43similarities in each type of financial
13:46institution. With that in mind, how do
13:50you want to be recognized here in
13:52Brazil?
13:54As the best financial services solution
13:57for individuals and businesses. The
14:00analogy I like best isn't even with the
14:02financial system, but with Amazon or
14:03Mercado Livre, how they are also
14:05comparable.
14:08When those players started, they were
14:10specialized in a few key areas, and for
14:12convenience and cost-benefit analysis,
14:14we ended up getting used to them. And
14:18today, very few people research things;
14:20they go straight to those marketplaces
14:23and get it done there. I want Revolut
14:25to be known as a solution where the
14:27customer doesn't need to overthink.
14:29They know that there they will find the
14:31best, the best price, best benefit, the
14:33best combination of factors that serves
14:35them. And if, by any chance, their
14:37situation changes and they don't want
14:39that anymore, I’ll have a shelf of
14:40other offers they can adapt to. They
14:43have everything from the free service
14:44to the Ultra service. And even Ultra,
14:47which is our most premium service,
14:49remains very affordable. And the
14:52customer can recover that subscription
14:54cost through the benefits they receive
14:56—more than 12 subscriptions, which is
14:59equivalent to 400 BRL per month—a
15:01possible benefit for the customer, by
15:03exchanging currency without a spread
15:05and without IOF, being able to get
15:07their annual fee waived if they use the
15:09card or any other item from the
15:11benefits package we offer, precisely
15:13because they gain the confidence that
15:15they don't need to choose much at
15:17Revolut: they will find the best
15:19solution.
15:21I don't have, let's put it this way, a
15:22search for a specific customer for
15:23Revolut. As I said, the company is very
15:26product-focused, so I want to build a
15:28product that serves the largest number
15:29of people possible.
15:31We started in Brazil three years ago
15:33with a product very focused on a global
15:35account and have been expanding into
15:37credit cards, everyday payments, and a
15:39series of other things.
15:40Uh-huh.
15:41So, naturally, we started with an
15:43audience that traveled more, that
15:45wanted to diversify abroad, then came
15:47the audience that wanted to invest
15:49abroad, and now we are entering
15:50people's day-to-day lives. Naturally,
15:53our customer base is approaching the
15:55population distribution in Brazil.
15:58Uh-huh. Perfect. You mentioned it; I
16:00wanted to bring up a point here more
16:01about operations, really. You said that
16:04Revolut hasn't really entered the
16:05credit market yet, let's say. How do
16:09you see the current moment in Brazil,
16:11considering our benchmark interest rate
16:14here that shouldn't drop, we're looking
16:17at, let's say, 14%; how are you dealing
16:19with this difficulty? Okay? When we say
16:24we haven't entered credit, we have to
16:26put it in relative terms, because we
16:28have a very large volume of deposits
16:30globally compared to the balance sheet
16:32risk we have in credit, which is
16:33relatively small. When you compare it
16:36to any peer, we have a lot of room to
16:38grow. In Brazil, specifically, we
16:41already have an active credit card
16:43operation and we aim to open other
16:44lines of credit.
16:45Uh-huh. And this market you describe,
16:47which is indeed one of high interest
16:49rates, high real interest, and
16:51challenging, that is Brazil as it has
16:52always been.
16:53Uh-huh.
16:54So we don't really get to choose
16:55whether we like it or not. We have to
16:57learn to work in this environment and
16:59generate solutions that allow the
17:01customer to have this product in the
17:02most accessible and cheapest way
17:04possible. That is where I leverage my
17:07competitive advantages of gaining scale
17:09, being able to do more with less, and
17:11eventually enabling customers to have
17:13access to credit at a more controlled
17:14cost. But the challenges will be the
17:17same ones the entire market faces. It
17:20is a moment where the economy is going
17:22through significant macroeconomic
17:23challenges. It is an election year. So,
17:26obviously, there is a lot being
17:28discussed right now about potential
17:29changes to economic plans, and we have
17:31to be prepared for all of them, for all
17:33of these scenarios. I cannot take sides
17:36or adapt myself to a bet on scenario A
17:39or scenario B. I have to be prepared to
17:41navigate whichever one it is and bring
17:43the best solution to the customer
17:45regardless.
17:46And are there plans to seek a banking
17:48license here in Brazil?
17:50The direct answer is yes. Now, that
17:53depends a lot on several factors, some
17:55of which depend simply on the company,
17:57while others also depend on the
17:58regulatory framework of each country.
18:01Why do I say it is easy to answer yes?
18:04Because it is already public and
18:05well-known that Revolut wants to be a
18:07bank in every country it operates in,
18:08and always with the highest degree of
18:10compliance in its respective countries.
18:12But if the question is whether you need
18:14to be a bank right now? The answer is I
18:17don't need to yet. Why? Nubank itself,
18:20as you just highlighted, grew to the
18:22size it is, and I think it becomes a
18:23bank this year because it bought
18:25another operation due to changes in
18:27legislation to be able to use the name,
18:29etc. But I would even say that in the
18:31operation itself, in its core operation
18:33, it will continue to operate with the
18:35licenses it already had. Revolut is
18:38already a financial institution
18:40regulated by the Central Bank, it
18:42already goes through the entire
18:44compliance and regulatory reporting
18:46framework, but the license model,
18:48despite being in our ambition, will
18:50follow the maturity of our growth in
18:52scale in Brazil and, obviously, the
18:55timing and movements that the Central
18:57Bank itself allows for us to make this
18:59move.
19:00Cool. What is the big, the next big
19:04product you plan to bring to the
19:06Brazilian public?
19:09In the retail market, we have evolved
19:11very well over these last three years,
19:13right? The global account product has
19:15consolidated itself and become the
19:16market benchmark, because today I can
19:18offer cheaper and more accessible
19:20exchange, literally for free, because
19:22people have a set amount of exchange
19:24they can do without a spread, without
19:26paying IOF. In Brazilian daily payment
19:30products, in credit cards, in point
19:31accumulation, there are several niches
19:33that we have managed to serve very well
19:35. So, it's now also recognized as one
19:37of the best credit cards on the market.
19:40So, I’d say now it’s about
19:42continuing to evolve our retail
19:43products, which opens up space to start
19:45working on products for businesses. So,
19:49I’m working hard right now so that in
19:51the coming months, or next year, we can
19:53bring Revolut’s business banking
19:55product to the table. And this is so
19:58relevant that today, about 25%of
20:00Revolut’s revenue already comes from
20:03the Revolut Business unit. And here
20:05we’re talking about a bank for cash
20:07management, to bring the same exchange
20:09solutions we offer to individuals, but
20:11now for companies. And this is still a
20:13relatively underserved market in Brazil
20:15, because large companies are very well
20:17served by the big banks. Small and
20:19medium-sized ones today struggle just
20:21to open an account, let alone handle
20:23foreign exchange for their business.
20:25So for everyone who imports, exports,
20:27or has business abroad,
20:28it will be a great potential area that
20:30we’d like to work on well. And then
20:34come all the business banking solutions
20:36, like corporate cards, reimbursement
20:38processes, and automated policy
20:40approvals, using advanced technology,
20:42including AI, to recognize receipts and
20:45make the approval process more
20:47convenient, easy, and cheap to use. So
20:50I have a value proposition for
20:52businesses that's currently in the oven
20:54. I hope to be able to bring you this
20:56news soon.
20:57Oh, nice. And has Brazil served, or
21:00could it serve, as a laboratory for
21:02products that will later be taken to
21:03other countries?
21:06Yes, without a doubt. Brazil is much
21:07more advanced in terms of payment
21:09infrastructure than other countries.
21:12There are good examples and bad
21:13examples of this. What are the good
21:15examples?
21:1524/7 payments, the process for
21:18disputing incorrect payments, the
21:20so-called Pix dispute mechanism (MED).
21:23There’s a series of innovations. The
21:26very effect of Open Finance and the
21:28capacity for predictive analysis and
21:30credit scoring, a series of things that
21:32, despite still evolving, promise to be
21:34a major competitive differentiator for
21:36Brazil. Every foreign traveler who
21:39comes here goes crazy being able to pay
21:41with Pix. So, exporting this a little
21:43bit so they can use something similar
21:45in their own countries, or being able
21:47to be in Brazil paying with Pix, or
21:49even paying with Pix abroad when
21:50Brazilians travel. Without a doubt. I
21:53think it’s on the radar of everyone
21:55who is serious in the payments space.
21:57We would like to do that as well. So
22:00yes, there is, and it’s—it’s—
22:01it’s a lot to work on, but I—I
22:03would say I have to focus some efforts.
22:06Today, the major competitive advantages
22:09will be in bringing access to the best
22:12of what's out there to Brazilians. So,
22:15investments abroad, cheaper exchange
22:17rates, and making what was once
22:18inaccessible to Brazilians locally
22:20become accessible, such as, for example
22:22, credit offerings and the benefits we
22:24provide.
22:25Uh-huh. Do you have plans to make
22:28acquisitions around here, or is that
22:29out of the question? It’s never off
22:31the table, but it’s also not my main
22:33goal; we don’t aim to grow through
22:35acquisitions. Evolute isn't considered
22:37a firm that went around acquiring a lot
22:39of things globally. We have very few M&
22:42A cases; it happened in Argentina, when
22:44we bought a bank—it is currently in
22:47the regulatory approval process. And
22:50one of the lessons learned is that the
22:52change-of-control process is sometimes
22:54as long and complex as applying for an
22:55organic license. So, in each location
22:59we enter, we evaluate the pros and cons
23:01of the organic model versus the
23:03acquisition model. The organic model
23:06has generally won and been the primary
23:08choice, but I wouldn't say I rule out
23:10the opportunity for smart hiring, for
23:13example, to bring in and accelerate
23:15time to market for things that might be
23:17different from the rest of the world.
23:20Credit is one of them.
23:21Uh-huh. Right? Brazil—doing credit in
23:23Brazil is a bit more complex, it has
23:25more nuances than doing credit in other
23:27parts of the world, precisely because
23:29there is a higher real interest rate, a
23:31different level of default, and
23:32interest rates are considered some of
23:34the highest in the world. So this
23:37combination of factors creates a
23:39different level of complexity, but they
23:42also bring a very relevant profit pool
23:45opportunity. Can I add a question here,
23:49Carol, just about credit and this point
23:51you mentioned about increasing credit
23:53for small and medium-sized enterprises?
23:57And I think a question naturally arises
23:59here, right, since we are seeing so
24:01much judicial recovery, with companies
24:02having quite a lot of difficulty
24:04precisely due to higher interest rates.
24:08How do you intend, shall we say, to
24:09weigh this in the balance, right? If,
24:13at the same time, there is this
24:15difficulty for companies to survive,
24:17especially when we talk about the real
24:19economy, when we talk about it,
24:21everything—at least it’s a point, I
24:23speak to anyone on the street, "Oh,
24:25everything is so expensive," right? And
24:28we feel this in our daily lives with
24:30large companies themselves having this
24:32difficulty.
24:33Uh-huh.
24:35What is your, uh, assessment and how do
24:37you intend, um, let's say, to solve
24:39this problem? I think the market
24:42condition is what it is. I can't, I
24:46have little influence, I make my
24:47individual contribution, obviously, but
24:49I have little influence over the market
24:51situation. Uh-huh.
24:53So this is valid, it's the, it's the,
24:54it's the playing field for everyone.
24:57But what I can do, and that is one of
24:59Revolut's competitive advantages, is
25:01that it's a digital native, very good
25:04at data analysis, very, very good at
25:06doing more with fewer resources,
25:08leveraging technology to get things
25:10done. And where does the big question
25:12about credit lie? It's risk analysis,
25:16analysis, the predictive ability to
25:19understand repayment capacity and how
25:22challenging it may or may not be for a
25:25given market participant. How to get
25:29the credit size just right, and the
25:31conditions that make this credit work.
25:34And here we will have to, we are just
25:36starting, so I don't have ready results
25:38to show, but our bet is that Revolut's
25:41success in doing this very well in
25:43several different markets will help me
25:45take all this know-how. Nowadays with
25:48artificial intelligence, the great
25:50driver of analysis is precisely the
25:52training and the data you make your LLM
25:54work with. So, I believe we have a
25:59competitive advantage in building
26:00models and having a predictive
26:02capability that allows me to better
26:04measure risk, analyze a much larger
26:06volume of data than a few years ago and
26:08, perhaps, be a bit more assertive in
26:09granting credit, without ever
26:11underestimating how difficult and
26:13challenging this is, especially in a
26:15market like ours, which goes through so
26:17much economic volatility.
26:19Right? Well, uh, and I wanted to talk a
26:21bit about an IPO. Revolut has already
26:23stated that it is a natural path, right
26:25? But that it doesn't depend on it to
26:27grow. Uh, if this were to happen, what
26:30would be the role of Brazil?
26:33We have a very relevant growth story
26:35within the venture capital model. When
26:38I started talking to Revolut back in
26:402021, the company's valuation was
26:42around 5 billion dollars. In 2020, I
26:47started there in 2021, in 2022, in that
26:53same '21, mid-21, they already secured
26:55a round of 33 billion, and that was the
26:57last round that had, uh, at least the
27:00numbers I have in mind, that actually
27:02had primary participation. Everything
27:05that followed that, the company was
27:07already profitable. We had relevant
27:10rounds that pushed the valuation up to
27:1245, 24, 75 in 2025 and now 115 in 2026.
27:20Uh-huh.
27:20They were all secondary. So,
27:23demonstrating even further that the
27:25company's core didn't need external
27:27money to maintain its growth pace. But
27:30our founder has already spoken publicly
27:32that an IPO path is natural, even for
27:34market confidence, to show transparency
27:36, have proper governance, and obviously
27:38to expand into other businesses,
27:40perhaps with a much more significant
27:42credit portfolio. And this period is
27:46not determined as to when it would
27:48happen. It's just known to be a path of
27:50natural evolution. He even mentioned, I
27:53think 2028 as the best bet, but that's
27:54not set in stone, is it? It will depend
27:57on market conditions, especially since
27:59it's a somewhat relevant IPO. Brazil,
28:02in this context, which is your question
28:04, I would say is very important because
28:06, first, major global benchmarks are
28:08here. You mentioned Nubank itself, and
28:10they are undoubtedly someone to be
28:11recognized. Brazil is a large country
28:14globally, right? The 10th, 12th, 13th
28:17economy in the world, but with an
28:18audience that tests digital products
28:20much more. So, by being a very
28:23competitive market, having a good
28:25positioning in Brazil certainly tells a
28:26very good story for the composition of
28:28this IPO, but Brazil doesn't come alone
28:30. So, there are other expansion markets
28:35where we already have growth plans that
28:37should make up this, let's say,
28:39diversified ecosystem of geographic
28:41opportunities, products, and expertise,
28:44to actually make an IPO worth so many
28:46billions of dollars. That's true. Would
28:50the IPO be in London?
28:52I don't think so, that's not defined
28:54yet.
28:55London is our home, so it's natural
28:56that something might eventually happen
28:58there. I've heard speculations, and
29:00it's always the center of speculation
29:01because, you know, nothing is defined.
29:04An eventual dual listing between the
29:06United States and the UK. But in my
29:09humble opinion, I believe that leaving
29:11the United States out for an event of
29:13this size is unlikely. If I had to bet,
29:16I would bet on a dual listing between
29:18the United States and the UK. I wanted
29:21to ask some quicker questions now. We
29:25have here, you know, some—I always
29:27select a final part here to be a bit
29:29more, shall we say, a real ping-pong
29:31session here,
29:33is that okay?
29:34How do you see—we talked a lot about
29:36Brazil and the world here, but I've
29:38brought up some points. Is Brazil an
29:40opportunity for Revolut or the biggest
29:43test in Revolut’s history? It's an
29:47opportunity, despite also being a test,
29:49because the market is already quite
29:52heated with digital players, but on the
29:55other hand, there's great mobility
29:57between different apps and solutions.
30:01The average Brazilian has 6.3 different
30:04apps to get things done, which gives us
30:06the opportunity to be tested. And
30:09that's all I want, because generally
30:11those who test us like it, recommend it
30:13, and stay. And then they stay and
30:16recommend it. And that's how Revolut
30:18has grown and scaled exponentially all
30:19over the world. So, all I want is to be
30:22the third, fourth, or second app,
30:24because once people test it, they tend
30:26to stay and tend to recommend it.
30:29Taking advantage of what you mentioned
30:32about recommendations, is your
30:34marketing primarily based on that? How
30:37do you work on it a bit more? It could
30:40still be, it still is.
30:41It's still mainly in expansion markets.
30:44What we call an expansion market is
30:46when you don't have a consolidated,
30:48relevant market share yet, or when the
30:50organic growth rate is still higher
30:52relative to the inorganic growth rate.
30:54In Europe, we are already the most used
30:57financial app in over 30 countries. So
30:59it's natural that organic growth has
31:02cooled down, and you see much more
31:05Revolut advertising. We're present in
31:08airports, sometimes even out-of-home
31:10media, a series of things. We currently
31:12sponsor a Formula 1 team, and the
31:14team's name includes RB Revolut. This
31:17is part of a branding and maturity
31:19process in countries where you are
31:21already more consolidated. In expansion
31:25countries, there's very little money
31:26put into that kind of thing, because
31:28organic growth is still higher and
31:30growth levers are still much more about
31:32referrals and satisfied customers
31:33referring others. Although, in Brazil,
31:37I personally think it's very important
31:39to position yourself from a brand
31:41perspective and reach a broader range
31:43of segments faster, but that has much
31:45more to do with the competitive market
31:47here than with the company's strategy.
31:50By policy, the company invests very
31:52little in advertising in these
31:54expansion countries.
31:55All right. What would be the biggest
31:57surprise for those who think Revolut is
31:59...? It's just when we talk about it
32:01here, or when you talk about the
32:03difference, right, of being considered,
32:05let's say, an international account or,
32:07you know, being better known for
32:09foreign exchange. Wait, hold on, let me
32:12redo this. Back it up. And what would
32:16be the biggest surprise for those who
32:18think Revolut is...just, let's say, an
32:21international account or a bank, since
32:23you mentioned, you know, comparing it
32:25to an Amazon, where you can access any
32:27product within Revolut.
32:30I will answer with tangible and
32:31practical facts, right? Uh, my own
32:35mistakes. As a product-driven company,
32:39I aimed at one thing and hit something
32:42completely different. At the beginning
32:45of this year, we launched several new
32:47features, including cheaper exchange
32:48rates. And I thought that would be our
32:51flagship. Why? Because our brand was
32:53already known as a global account
32:55solution. It came with a new credit
32:59card called Ultra, which had a
33:02fantastic benefits package, worth 400
33:04reais a month, including access to gyms
33:07via ClassPass, access to workspaces
33:10around the world at WeWork, language
33:13included, and Lovable, which is that
33:15app for vibe coding and making apps and
33:18websites in the cheapest way. I said: "
33:22This doesn't exist in Brazil, it's
33:23going to be wonderful." And a points
33:25program here that has three points per
33:27dollar, the market standard. I thought
33:31all of that would be a huge success,
33:33and suddenly I sold in two weeks what I
33:35had forecast for three months of cards.
33:38Boom. Why? Because this points program,
33:42which was a bit off my radar as a major
33:44competitive differentiator, was
33:46perceived by those who love miles as
33:49the best miles program available in
33:51Brazil. Because our point wasn't just
33:54any regular point out there. The three
33:58doesn't mean anything, because when the
34:00customer went to exchange them for
34:02airline miles, they would pay another
34:04conversion rate—three to one, two to
34:07one, 1.5 to one, etc. And ours is one
34:09to one with many international airlines
34:11. So I learned that the equivalent of
34:14our three points is 10.5 points for the
34:17customer. And so I became popular and
34:20famous among everyone who loved miles
34:22in Brazil. And organically, we started
34:24to grow enormously because that was
34:26what pleased the customer. So, to your
34:28question:
34:29It's product-driven. And sometimes,
34:31even without aiming at something, we
34:32hit the mark because everyone is
34:34working. The entity there, the team
34:36group that was doing the miles,
34:37certainly thought of this big
34:39competitive advantage. It was just a
34:41little off my radar when I looked at
34:42the whole picture. And in the end, it
34:44was a great success.
34:46And do you think this, right, miles
34:48program is still underutilized in
34:50Brazil? I think Brazil is the opposite.
34:52Brazil is one of the most active in
34:54this type of thing in the world. Eh,
34:57these credit card benefits
34:59traditionally, which in our case are
35:01also on debit, is the most competitive
35:04market too. Just to give you some
35:06benchmarks, placing your brand at an
35:08airport, for example, in Brazil costs
35:10four times more than the average in
35:12Europe. I was, I was very impressed
35:14when I discovered this huge difference,
35:17because people here invest much more in
35:19this type of thing. This is valid, uh,
35:22as a reference for airport lounges,
35:24this is valid as a reference for, uh,
35:26miles usage. There are people who
35:28actually treat this as a profession,
35:29they stay there monitoring, knowing the
35:31best promotion, how to do it, how to
35:32fly business class cheaper. And so it
35:35turned out that our product fit very
35:36well into this type of thing. And
35:39because it is very competitive, uh,
35:40Visa and Mastercard themselves, which
35:42are brands and are in every bank, the
35:44place in the world where they invest
35:46the most in airport lounges is
35:47precisely Brazil, São Paulo, Guarulhos
35:49. In other words, Brazil is a benchmark
35:52for this type of thing, which
35:54corroborates that story of it being a
35:55more competitive market indeed.
35:58So much so that, right, I think just
36:00commenting here about the lounges,
36:01right, that we see there are also
36:03lounges, but then there are even more
36:04exclusive ones. I don't know if this is
36:07common in other countries, but here new
36:09categories keep emerging precisely for
36:11this matter of exclusivity indeed.
36:13Exactly. We just announced that we will
36:14also have an airport lounge,
36:16oh. But with a detail, we start from
36:19Revolut itself, a recent announcement,
36:21first hand here for you guys,
36:23but we will start in Europe. Why? If I
36:26were to fight with everyone here for an
36:27airport lounge, I would just be one
36:28more.
36:29In Europe, few people do it, so I will
36:31have my own lounges there for everyone
36:33who travels from here to there to have
36:35their exclusive lounge to enjoy the
36:36good ones. And in Brazil, it remains
36:38100. No, I have my partnerships and in
36:41my app, just in Guarulhos, the customer
36:43can choose between seven different
36:44lounges. So he gets there and says: "
36:46Look, that one is full, I'll go to the
36:48other one. I like this one better, so
36:49I'll choose it." And I don't need, at
36:51least for now, to have a proprietary
36:54VIP lounge in Brazil, but I will
36:55provide access to all of them. Actually
36:58, in practice, our Ultra customer has
37:00unlimited VIP lounge access worldwide.
37:03And is there any financial product? I
37:06wanted to do a, you know, a "hit or
37:07miss", let's say, all or nothing, right
37:09? I wanted to understand a bit if there
37:12is a financial product in your
37:13assessment that is overrated. Overrated
37:16.
37:16Overrated.
37:17That's a great question. No one has
37:19ever asked me that. Uh, I wouldn't say
37:23overrated, but there are products that,
37:25due to their volume, draw a lot of
37:27attention, but in business terms, they
37:30are just a structural part of the
37:32business; they don't drive results. Pix
37:35itself is a great example of this. Pix
37:37in Brazil is certainly the most used
37:39payment method for daily life.
37:41It generates no revenue; it's just an
37:43enabler.
37:44Uh, for the market, the customer, and
37:46that's fine, it's part of the business
37:47model here. And in other countries, it
37:49doesn't work that way. Uh-huh.
37:51Uh, so I would say it's excellent for
37:53the customer in their daily life, as it
37:55should be, but from a business
37:57perspective, it's just part of the
37:58infrastructure to build customer
38:00relationships and enable other things.
38:03So, just as it is excellent, it has a
38:05point of concern from a business
38:06standpoint.
38:08And the underrated one?
38:11There, I would say it's international
38:13investments, because there's a barrier
38:16of financial education, without a doubt
38:18, there's a barrier to access, and
38:20today Brazil, however developed its
38:22market may be, is very small relative
38:24to global markets, especially the
38:26United States. So, the opportunity is
38:30now in people's hands to get to know,
38:32to study, to learn, and with a few
38:34clicks and at a lower cost, be able to
38:36access more developed markets and gain
38:38exposure to them and to asset
38:40appreciation and investment
38:42opportunities, diversifying outside the
38:44country. This is still growing in
38:47Brazil.
38:48And what do you think the financial
38:49product of the future will be like?
38:51Then we have to talk about new
38:53technologies. And I wouldn't say it
38:56will be recognized as a financial
38:57product; it will be recognized simply
38:59as a solution to the problems I needed
39:01to solve with artificial intelligence.
39:05Phase number one was introducing
39:07copilots to help people gain
39:08productivity. Phase number two,
39:11creating agents that could operate
39:13frameworks on their own. I think the
39:16future of this is to place this agent
39:18process with this orchestration process
39:21to solve people's problems in a way
39:23that they don't even realize it
39:26happened. This is much less reactive
39:28and more proactive. When a person uses
39:30a financial app today, it's because
39:32they had an issue they needed to
39:33resolve. They go there and choose what
39:35they have to do. Now with these
39:37predictive models, you can, through
39:39context, understand what this person
39:41might need, already arrive with a
39:43proposition and ask them: "I noticed
39:45you need this, do you want to accept or
39:47decline?" And then with one click, they
39:49guarantee the solution to their problem
39:51. For example, on a trip, I'm talking,
39:54I'm researching a trip, and if they
39:56allow me access to that information, I
39:58can offer it. Well, given that you're
40:00thinking about this, maybe you can
40:02exchange your points for this airline
40:04ticket here, take out this insurance to
40:06make your life easier, and eventually
40:08book the hotel right here. And you
40:11don't even need to worry about where
40:12that money is coming from, because with
40:14Open Finance I can know what the best
40:15solution would be for you. Whether it's
40:18taking money from that investment,
40:19taking it from the remaining balance,
40:21or using the balance in your account
40:22before that other bill that's coming up
40:24in the future, which was scheduled,
40:25because then you use the money
40:27currently in cash and wait to withdraw
40:28the investment only when you would pay
40:30that other one. Anyway, this proactive
40:33context on how to solve things for the
40:35customer. Today everyone fights for the
40:38customer's attention, for screen time.
40:41I think in this future you asked about,
40:43it will be a fight for consent, for the
40:46permission to execute this for the
40:48customer using these technology agents.
40:51It's a bit of futurism, but I think
40:53that's the direction the financial
40:55market should move in.
40:57From what I can understand, let's say,
41:00one agent for each user would be a very
41:02personalized thing where you could do
41:04everything. When you're talking there,
41:08we go back to that question of a super
41:09app, of really being able to do
41:11everything through it.
41:13Personalized, personalized, undoubtedly
41:16very tailor-made. Your specific need,
41:18not necessarily one agent, it can
41:20actually be an army of agents that are
41:23orchestrated, each with its specialty,
41:25each trained for a specific purpose,
41:27each with specific permission, because,
41:29after all, we are talking about
41:31people's money. So, it's not like there
41:34are degrees of freedom that cannot be
41:36exceeded. It is one thing to make a
41:38recommendation, and another to be
41:39permitted to make one. And something
41:42even more complex is having the
41:43permission to execute an automated
41:45financial transaction. So there are
41:48many layers that still need to be
41:49worked on, but I think we're heading in
41:51that direction.
41:52Wow, let's see what that future will
41:54look like. Really quite interesting,
41:56right, Carol?
41:57Right. I'm curious to experience it.
41:59I'm excited. Working hard to make it
42:01happen. From here, right, we talked so
42:04much about the company and a bit about
42:06your vision, what you foresee, for
42:08example, 10 years from now, since we're
42:09talking so much about futurism. But
42:12what do you see for Revolut and, of
42:14course, for the global banking
42:16financial system? In 10 years, Revolut
42:20has already reached its goal, had a
42:22significant IPO, is present in over 100
42:24countries, has managed to become part
42:26of customers' daily lives, and is
42:28probably already working in that model
42:31I just described: much more
42:32contextualized in people's daily lives,
42:34much less by specific demand. And in
42:38the market, I think today evolution and
42:40competition have evolved at a
42:41completely different speed. So, most
42:43likely we will be doing this alone by
42:45the time we reach that moment.
42:48That's true, Glauber, thanks a lot for
42:50participating here. I hope you can come
42:52back other times and, of course,
42:54definitely to talk to us about the IPO.
42:56It was
42:56a pleasure.
42:58Thank you, Carol. Once again,
42:59thank you for the invitation. Thank you
43:01, Glauber.
43:01The pleasure is mine.
43:02And thank you to you who followed our
43:04Mandem Mais. I would also like to ask
43:07for your like and your comment. Tell us
43:09, right? We talked so much here about
43:11the financial system here in Brazil,
43:13abroad, and much more than that. I
43:15think projecting from here on out, from
43:17here on out. Tell us how you see this
43:20financial system. Kisses and see you in
43:23the next episode.

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