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Revisiting '100 things a planner should know', with Charles Wigley | The WARC Podcast — Transcript

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0:02[music]
0:08Hello and welcome to the war podcast. My
0:10name is David Tilman and today we are
0:12talking about the world of strategy and
0:14some top tips for the next generation of
0:17strategists from a seasoned pro. We have
0:20with us today Charles Wiggley. Now, I
0:22first met Charles when he was chairman
0:24at BBH Asia based in Singapore and that
0:27followed a career in agency side
0:30planning and strategy that took him from
0:32London to Hong Kong to Australia before
0:3420 years in Singapore. Now, he even
0:37acted as jury president for our very own
0:40Walk Prize for Asian Strategy back in
0:42the day. Now, a few years ago when he
0:45left BBH, Charles wrote a post called
0:48100 Things a Planner Should Know. Now,
0:50that became a bit of a viral hit. We
0:52featured it on Walk and it's one of
0:54those things that has kept resurfacing
0:56ever since as a kind of field manual for
0:59for young strategists. He's now turned
1:02that post into a really beautiful little
1:04book. So, we thought we should get him
1:05on the pod to talk about some of that
1:07advice, how he applied it in his own
1:09career, and what it means in the current
1:12industry climate. We'll bring Charles on
1:15in a moment, but first, a word from our
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1:42today.
1:45>> Uh Charles, welcome to the war podcast.
1:47Thank you, David.
1:48>> I gave your sort of career background up
1:51front there, but what are you what are
1:52you actually up to now because it's been
1:54five years now since you since you left
1:56BBH.
1:57>> That's right. I mean um essentially
2:00consulting so doing projects with
2:02clients mainly direct to clients as
2:05opposed to agencies working on core
2:07brand strategy a lot of work around kind
2:09of core brand stories actually the
2:12fundamentals of how a business pitches
2:14itself and then bringing in other
2:16partners create agencies media agencies
2:19etc uh to execute off that. What are
2:21some of the things you would might have
2:23worked on over the years that you're
2:25particularly proud of just so people get
2:26a sense of the the kind of thing you've
2:28worked on?
2:29>> Okay. Um that's that's interesting.
2:31Going back to Australia, we came up with
2:33James Squire's beer. I was working at a
2:35little agency there called Principles uh
2:38and working with Lion Nathan Brewery as
2:40was and they wanted a new premium brew
2:43and um wonderful story. James Squire was
2:45the original convict brewer of Sydney.
2:48We latched on to his story and we
2:49produced everything from the packaging
2:51through to the ads and the packaging was
2:53his story. So every six-pack he bought
2:56had another aspect of his slightly
2:59slightly embroidered story of the
3:00origins. It's now I think it's now the
3:02the biggest craft beer in Australia
3:04which is kind of nice. It was quite
3:06successful. Foolishly we did it on a fee
3:08so we got absolutely no recompense for
3:11the scale of the brand now. But I mean
3:12that's the common industry problem.
3:14Well, I'm sure we can talk about that
3:15[laughter] as we go through the podcast,
3:17but okay, I mentioned the post in the in
3:19the background that 100 things a planner
3:21should know. Uh, now you wrote that I
3:23think it was back in 2020. Just just
3:26describe uh what the motivation for
3:29writing that was and and why you felt
3:31that was the time and you know that that
3:34was the advice you needed to give.
3:36>> Well, I think the brutal truth is David,
3:37I was bullied into writing it. It was
3:40the middle of COVID and I was I was
3:41leaving BBH. I knew I was leaving but we
3:43couldn't go anywhere. So I was still in
3:44Singapore and I [snorts] was still
3:46officially working at BBH and um I was
3:49actually spending quite a lot of the
3:50time going for gentle walks and having
3:51ginonics and stuff which which was
3:53spotted in the end because every week I
3:55ran a new business call and in the end
3:57all my partners from around the region
3:59kind of went what are you what are you
4:00up to? Could you leave us with
4:01something? And I kind of went what do I
4:03leave you with? I've left you with
4:04endless pitch documents, endless
4:06training documents. You don't need no
4:07just write something. Um, so I got
4:10slightly cornered and one of the guys on
4:12the call, lovely chuck called Sid went,
4:13"Look, I've seen something by an
4:15architect called 100 things every young
4:17architect should know. I think you
4:18should do something similar." So I got
4:20cornered into it and I thought, "Oh god,
4:22I'm going to have to do this now." Um,
4:24and I sat down and started writing. Then
4:26I found all of a sudden I had loads to
4:28say and you know, I think it took a day
4:31and a half, two days to write the whole
4:33thing. It just blowed straight out.
4:34>> You got to hundred without, you know,
4:36>> any bother at all. I had to stop myself.
4:38ranting any further. So it just came
4:40very quickly and another day editing it
4:43down etc. So that's that's the the truth
4:45about the origins and then we put it out
4:47you guys picked it up various m campaign
4:50a day but all these magazines kind of
4:51picked it up and it and it went quite
4:53viral at the time.
4:54>> Yeah. And as I said at the start you
4:56know it's still referenced I still see
4:58people people sort of uh uh bringing it
5:00up. Um, you know, just in case anyone
5:03hasn't read it, and we'll come on to the
5:04book in a moment, but the book is is
5:06based off of those that list. It's not a
5:09sort of long form thing, is it? It's
5:11it's sort of each one is like a little
5:14saying or almost like a little idiom or
5:17something, a little thing to remember.
5:19Rather than it being a sort of a hundred
5:21sort of, you know, chapters, it's a
5:23hundred little sayings.
5:25>> That's correct. Yeah. I mean it is sort
5:27of 100 kind of principles and thoughts
5:29as opposed to spelling it all out and
5:31kind of leaving the audience a bit to
5:32complete it. And each one actually is
5:34illustrated by the kind of wonderful
5:35Martin Golton who's done very funny.
5:38>> So this is cartoons that go with it.
5:40>> So this is this has taken that original
5:43post uh and then actually created a
5:45really lovely book and I should mention
5:47the title. The title is Chaz's 100
5:50things a planner should know.
5:52>> Um and yes, it's illustrated. So, so
5:55just just talk talk through that.
5:57>> It's an unserious serious book. It's an
5:59unserious planners book. It's sort of a
6:00toilet book, isn't it? You could put
6:02[laughter] put it by the side. It's a
6:03planner's toilet book. You're going to
6:04put it on any ad persons, but you pick
6:06it up and you leave through it. Do
6:07>> you know what it is? It is the perfect
6:09stocking filler for any uh any um young
6:13>> to every head of planning out there that
6:14how can your department live without
6:16this at Christmas? I mean, it's it's the
6:18price of a beer in a central London pub.
6:20>> Yeah. [laughter] But it's not even
6:23accounts will let this through.
6:24>> And I love that's fine.
6:25>> I love it. The cover is even designed as
6:27a creative brief. It's uh it is. And
6:30that was Paul Belelford, the designer,
6:31who actually Martin did the
6:33illustrations. And Paul um who's quite a
6:35well-known designer. He he actually put
6:37the book together. He said, "I've got
6:38this idea for the front cover. It's a
6:40brief. It's a knowing joke." And we kind
6:42of let's go with that then.
6:43>> So we'll we'll put a link to the to the
6:46the book in the show notes, but where
6:47can people get it? Just
6:48>> It's on Amazon. Okay, great. So, um,
6:51clearly podcast is a a very bad medium
6:55for trying to explain any of the
6:56illustrations. So, we're not going to do
6:58that. No,
6:58>> what we are going to do, I've I've
7:00picked out a few of the pieces of advice
7:03that stood out to me. And what I'd just
7:05like to do is sort of get you to expand
7:08on them a little bit and talk about how
7:10we can sort of think about these things
7:12in the current climate cuz, you know,
7:15it's it's a tough time out there for for
7:17non strategy teams. um strategy is going
7:20through a bit of a period of change as
7:23as AI comes in as the shape of the
7:25industry changes. So um I'd love to sort
7:28of get your thoughts uh both where that
7:32sort of saying comes from but also how
7:33we might apply it in the in the current
7:35climate. I'm going to start with piece
7:37of advice number one because this is
7:40this is one that is very simple sentence
7:42but it there's a lot that hangs off of
7:44it which is your definition of the
7:48problem is likely to be more important
7:50than your definition of the answer. So
7:53what do you mean what do you mean by
7:54that? Just tell us what talking about.
7:57>> Um it's something I learned the hard way
7:59over the years actually. I mean it's
8:00it's the old kind of Einstein cliche.
8:03You had an hour to save the world. what
8:05would you do? Well, I'd spend 55 minutes
8:07thinking about what the issue is.
8:09>> So, I absolutely nailed the problem
8:12before I came up with a solution because
8:14I think if you have a great problem
8:15definition,
8:17then it's easier to answer it in the
8:19right way. And too often it's skipped
8:21past or well the brief and the client
8:23said the issue is this, you know, really
8:25find out what the issue is. Um, I think
8:28there's a bigger kind of kind of process
8:31or organizational issue lurking in here
8:33as well. I think too often planners feel
8:36they have to come up with some kind of
8:37fat comply. Here is the brief and it's
8:39going to reveal like a rabbit out of a
8:41hat.
8:42>> Uh nine times out of 10 it then gets
8:44argued about and people don't like it
8:46because they haven't seen it before and
8:48the creative team gets shitty etc etc
8:50because they haven't been taken through
8:51the thinking. But actually it's probably
8:53not the best way to work and I
8:55increasingly think of planners and this
8:56is the way I operate it as kind of
8:59orchestrators of the team. So your job
9:01at the planner is not just to nail it
9:03yourself to absolutely be the hero. I
9:05mean you can try if you're a genius and
9:07you're an egotist but it's kind of
9:09better and it's more useful for you as a
9:11planner to really understand the issue,
9:14the objective, the brand and what the
9:16problem is you're trying to tackle and
9:18then come up with different
9:19possibilities for solutions and then
9:22discuss that with the team that actually
9:23going to work on it. And you'll find all
9:25of a sudden people come to that in a
9:27completely different mindset because
9:29they're going all right okay there's two
9:30or three start points let's chat about
9:32those in the same session you can chat
9:34about other options to solve it
9:36everybody feels that they've contributed
9:38which is important psychologically and
9:41quite often you go right that's the way
9:42forward and then people can leave that
9:44meeting knowing I've got to solve that
9:46and I think the other issue is when
9:48planners write you know the classic
9:50propositionalbased brief the answer
9:52almost inevitably has to be an ad
9:55>> because the proposition says what do you
9:57want to say and you have to kind of then
10:00say it and so the obvious form is an ad
10:02versus going we're solving this problem
10:04how can we solve it what are the
10:05different ways is it something you do in
10:07store is it a charitable event is it a
10:10stunt is it whatever so the answer is
10:13not necessarily the obvious so it kind
10:16of helps in both in both ways really
10:18>> and is there a sort of obvious example
10:21uh from your own experience where where
10:24by defining the problem you've got to a
10:27a better solution than you would have
10:30done if you'd just
10:31>> Yeah, it's a good question which I
10:32should have thought about more D.
10:33[laughter]
10:34I mean I think there's loads of kind of
10:35simple examples. I used to work on
10:36Levvis's jeans for years. And I remember
10:39once we had a discussion where in Japan
10:42they're about to
10:44start to take the female audience and
10:47501 jeans, the classic seriously and
10:50actually recut them
10:52perfectly for the female form and
10:54specifically the Japanese female form
10:56which obviously is like different from
10:57the western female form. And the
11:01plannings planners in our Japan office
11:03did lots of really interesting kind of
11:04ethnographic work about the psychology
11:06of Japanese women etc. and about how uh
11:09Japanese women become far more
11:10independent far bolder. So all this
11:12stuff was really interesting and the
11:14brief we ended up with I remember
11:15sitting in a room with the creative
11:16teams and it was all about I can't
11:18remember exactly but something about you
11:19know J the new Japanese woman is bold
11:22and adventurous all of that
11:23>> and I remember one of the creatives I
11:25think it was the creative director I
11:26think it was Steve just went yeah but
11:28but but chance I know they've written
11:29this I I totally get it it's true but
11:32these tunes have just been recut for
11:33women and Japanese people don't know
11:35that and Japanese women don't know that
11:37and actually we go that's the right
11:40answer that's the obvious answer but
11:41sometimes the obvious this is a good one
11:43because you're assuming knowledge.
11:45Japanese women weren't going to buy
11:46501's in in Japan cuz they said these
11:49people don't provide product for me. So
11:51actually the answer was right that's the
11:54fundamental issue. They don't believe
11:56that it's worth walking into the shop in
11:58the first place. Just go out there and
12:00the line was literally recut for women.
12:03But it was superb art direction. It was
12:05fantas kind of multi-awwardwinning can
12:07stuff. It was just it was a huge
12:08campaign. Yeah, again we're we're um
12:11we're not videoing this so I can't show
12:13you this but they're absolutely
12:14beautiful but it nailed it and it struck
12:16me then which was some it's exactly that
12:19point we and I was in charge of the
12:21planning team I hadn't analyzed the
12:23problem well enough we hadn't taken a
12:25step back and gone right what what
12:26really is the issue the real issue was
12:29women weren't going into the stores
12:30because they had this barrier that we
12:32don't believe you supply products for me
12:34>> so I think that's a very simple kind of
12:37learning example of that from kind of 35
12:39years ago. But again, just being really
12:42really clear on what the the problem
12:44was. And the problem might not be what's
12:46in the brief.
12:47>> No, exactly. And the brief was full of
12:49fascinating facts about Japan, Japanese
12:52women, what style they're into, who were
12:54their influences,
12:56all of this stuff. It's all great stuff,
12:58but actually it c it didn't tackle the
13:00fundamental issue, which a discussion
13:03got to. We ended up I sort of ended up
13:05doing briefs which were the problem and
13:07then four or five solutions options
13:10around the outside for every brief. Um
13:13we used to call them the fried egg brief
13:16because it's just an interesting way of
13:17>> the problem is the yolk.
13:18>> The problem is the yolk and then you
13:20populate around the outside. I mean I
13:22think it's fascinating the way agency
13:24teams demand creative people come up
13:27with you know you go into a review
13:28there's always you know three teams and
13:30lots of options on the wall but agency
13:33teams are also kind of hesitant for
13:35strategy departments to go right we
13:38could tackle this in a number of ways
13:39let's discuss it so it's like hang on if
13:42you want one from one group surely you
13:43should want some options from the other
13:46group as well also it helps with clients
13:48because you can go back at that stage
13:50and go look we've thought more about
13:51this what's the real it's this and these
13:55are solutions possible ones we prefer
13:57these two is it okay for us to explore
13:59those so you narrow down a little bit
14:01more with the client group so again they
14:03feel on board and they feel they can buy
14:05something braver out of that and I guess
14:08one of the observations of the the
14:11modern advertising landscape is that um
14:14a lot of the work has become more
14:15executional the briefs have become more
14:17executional that sort of the options for
14:20strategists to to get involved upstream
14:24a harder. Is this still something that a
14:27a strategist in an agency could spend
14:30time really thinking about or is is the
14:32the sort of modern uh communication
14:36style much more, you know, quick
14:38turnaround, very executional.
14:40>> I think they've got to kind of do it to
14:42do their jobs really.
14:44>> I don't think it's any more complicated
14:45than that. I mean, I think one of the
14:47other points you highlighted was, you
14:48know, about getting out there. Well,
14:50let's let's get on let's get on to that
14:51one because that's the second one. So
14:53>> So uh number 13 in the book is to
14:57understand people you need to see the
14:59world through their eyes. That means
15:01empathizing with them. That's your job.
15:04>> Indeed it is.
15:05>> Tell us more.
15:06>> Empathy kind of an important thing. I
15:08mean I it's a bit of a bug bear of mob
15:10not anymore because I'm not in the
15:11agency world so I I don't see this every
15:14day. Um, but I think planners have sort
15:17of become chained to their desks
15:19churning out PowerPoint documents. That
15:20seems to be the modus operandi. Who will
15:22write the document? It could be any
15:24document. It's always the planner. And
15:25you kind of go, hang on a second. Is it
15:28impossible for anybody else to do this
15:30for a start, but secondly, that's not
15:32ultimately the planner's job. The
15:34planner has to and planners, you know,
15:35the origin of it with JWT and BMP in the
15:38UK was the consumers becoming more
15:40diverse. We've got to get out there and
15:42understand them. society isn't quite as
15:44cohesive, isn't quite as obviously
15:46generational. We don't quite know what's
15:48going on anymore. Um, so the real role
15:52of the planner has to be to understand
15:54the audience in addition obviously to
15:56understanding the problem. But the
15:58primary role is you've got to get out
15:59there. You've got to be in the market
16:02talking to people. And I think that's
16:03all but disappeared in a lot of
16:05agencies.
16:06>> We have uh a recent uh future strategy
16:10report. I mean it just it just really
16:12shows the the the how rare it is for
16:16sort of qual research uh inerson
16:18research to to take place. It it's it's
16:21become the sort of exception rather than
16:23the rule.
16:24>> Yeah. And and when it is done it's
16:27always then oh we'll hire a research
16:29company to do it.
16:30>> Yeah. as opposed to some of the most
16:33useful planning I've ever done was
16:35actually just personally going out and
16:37talking to people because that is the
16:38way you understand where their heads are
16:40at, how they actually see the world
16:42versus how you see the world. I think
16:45there's also a really there's a really
16:48dangerous kind of cocktail in the UK
16:50agency world, which is everybody now has
16:52a degree or two degrees and they're
16:54thoroughly middle class and liberal.
16:55[laughter] It's a real issue.
16:58>> Yes, I I can see that. Yeah. Uh, I don't
17:01know.
17:01>> I only have one degree, by the way.
17:02That's
17:03>> We'll forgive you for [laughter] that
17:04one degree. When I started in the late
17:0780s, the agency world was a real mix.
17:10And I I'm not talking kind of diversity
17:13in the sense everybody talks about it
17:14now, but it was it was kind of a mix of
17:16Oxbridge and the working class kind of
17:19very different people. People that had
17:21left school at 16, worked there on other
17:23things or gone to art school, come
17:25through that and then Oxbridge types and
17:28the other. it was a mix of people and
17:30you got you've got different
17:32conversations but I think there is a
17:34danger now that there is a sort of
17:36bubble that's emerged of the same kind
17:39of people uh and I don't think that's
17:42helpful. There's um have you heard of a
17:44research agency called Meet the 85%.
17:47>> Yes. Yes. Mark Hatfield.
17:49>> Yeah. I don't [clears throat] know him
17:49personally. I know his wife. She used to
17:51work at BBH. But I think his point and
17:54what he's doing, I mean, I think his
17:56website says proudly based in Northland,
17:59which kind of is is a marker from the
18:01first line of the website.
18:02>> Um, and it's all about ethnography and
18:05being in field and doing that and going,
18:07"Hang on a sec. You you've got to
18:09understand
18:10>> where these things are coming from." And
18:13and actually I again I'm gonna back to
18:16the future strategy report here but the
18:18um we feature Mark in that and I think
18:22one of the points he makes is that now
18:25more than ever at a time when everyone's
18:27got access to the same large language
18:31models churning out built on the same
18:33sorts of data. Um actually this is a
18:36competitive advantage like having that
18:39he calls it guardians of reality I think
18:41and and actually having that sort of
18:43connection to the end to the end
18:45customer is is it's not just part of the
18:49job it gives a strategist a sort of uh
18:53an advantage.
18:54>> Yeah. No, absolutely. And I think if you
18:57end up working abroad, it's an even
18:59bigger issue because national cultures
19:02and ethnographic cultures are very
19:04different from each other.
19:05>> Yeah. Just I mean just because people
19:07dress the same. I think it's one of the
19:08points I'm making doesn't mean to say
19:10they think the same. So, you know,
19:11there's that kind of global youth
19:13culture and everybody's connected. Yeah.
19:15Yeah. Sure. People quite often do look
19:17remarkably. They're buying the same
19:18streetear brands. It doesn't mean in any
19:20way they think the same way about their
19:23lives, their parents, their job proper,
19:25none of it. You you worked in Asia for
19:27for a long time. So is there a sort of
19:29was there a sort of moment when you you
19:31had that sort of realization or or
19:33something where when you prodded under
19:36the hood of something, you found very
19:38different um thought processes or
19:41assumptions.
19:42>> Yeah, definitely. Um, I mean I think I
19:44was when I first moved to Asia was Hong
19:48Kong and I was like about 5 6 years in
19:50and I was the only planner in an agency
19:52in in Hong Kong which was was Bates
19:54Bakerspigov Bates. Remember them?
19:56[laughter]
19:57It really is ancient.
19:58>> This is ancient. Yes.
19:59>> Ancient [clears throat]
20:00kind of archaeology of the business. And
20:03I was the only planner and I kind of
20:04ended up doing all the pictures and
20:05everything and I was I was tremendously
20:06arrogant. I was a fool. Uh although we
20:09did some fantastic work, I don't think I
20:11took the time to really
20:14dig down into the culture of how people
20:17see the world there properly, how
20:19Cantonese people see. I then went to
20:20Australia, which is essentially a kind
20:22of Irish, English, Americanized version
20:24of UK culture, and then came back to
20:27Singapore and that's where I started
20:28getting more involved. You know, you're
20:30older, you're a bit less arrogant, and
20:31you kind of go, I really need to
20:33understand what's going on here. And you
20:36start reading a lot more. So I always
20:37advise people again going read things
20:38like you know G Hofstead's study of yeah
20:41>> the world in terms of the data on how
20:43different cultures
20:45>> uh see themselves in relation. So
20:47individuality
20:49versus collectivism which sounds again
20:51slightly cliche but the truth is our
20:54notion of the world being highly
20:56individuated is a minority view. you go
20:59to Asia. No, no, no, no, no. I see
21:02myself far more in connection with the
21:03people around me and their views are far
21:05more important to me. Um, which I think
21:09is fascinating. So, you know, stuff like
21:11in the in in a lot of Asian markets, uh,
21:15people's inroups are smaller, friendship
21:17groups are smaller, but they're far
21:19deeper.
21:20>> Yeah.
21:20>> Whereas Westerners like you and I will
21:22have very broad friendship groups, but
21:25they're far shallower. And so all these
21:27things you start to pick up and learn.
21:29Um the importance of public display and
21:32public status and actually ironically as
21:34a as a product of that that things
21:37themselves aren't important. It's what
21:39they say about you. So you know people
21:41in in America and the UK give their cars
21:43nicknames. We've got a Volkswagen called
21:45Dearree or something like that. A
21:47beetle. [laughter] Would get anybody in
21:48China calling their car Dearree.
21:50Margaret. No. It's a car. And it's a
21:54car. Now hopefully it's got a good badge
21:55because that projects a a degree of an
21:58image of success. Now that sounds a bit
22:00blunt and obviously as
22:03markets develop it gets far more
22:05nuanced.
22:06>> So all of a sudden no you might be you
22:09know slightly subtler about it but
22:10you're still playing that kind of game.
22:13So um yeah there's all kinds of
22:14fascinating stuff and how people read
22:18communications is different as well.
22:20>> Well we're on culture. So let's jump to
22:22number 33 which is culture tends to
22:26layer rather than replace. I thought
22:28this was a very sort of
22:30>> cryptic one. So so tell tell me what you
22:34well maybe understand it but you tell
22:37tell me what you meant by it.
22:38>> Um well I remember in the 80s and the
22:41'9s there was a lot about it there was a
22:42real kind of cultural fear you know the
22:44McDonald'sization of the world.
22:46>> Yes.
22:47>> You remember that?
22:47>> Yes. Yes. Now, the truth is that
22:49McDonald's has gone everywhere and it's
22:51done tremendously well everywhere. But
22:54actually, if you look at what they serve
22:55in different places, all tweaked around
22:57the world because food is such a
22:59fundamentally culturally dependent thing
23:02that they're successful in Singapore
23:04with a different menu. Now, it still has
23:06some of the classics in there, but they
23:07tune the sauces, they tune the specials,
23:09the breakfast is different, and you get
23:11that in every market and around the
23:12world. So, the original kind of meme, as
23:15it were, about, you know, McDonald's is
23:17taking over the world. this is western
23:18empir it's just not true because it's
23:20not commercially viable. Um, but I think
23:23people go, you know, if if let's say you
23:27are that young Hong Konger and you're
23:30increasing or the young Singapore
23:32Chinese, you're increasingly exposed to
23:34a lot of influences from, let's say, the
23:36US or Europe, but a lot of influences
23:39South Korea and Japan and you pick up
23:41all of these things. They don't replace
23:43your core identity, but they will start
23:46to layer
23:47>> layer on top.
23:48>> Yeah. And I think man when he was doing
23:49his illustration did I told him the
23:51story of my barber here who's who's uh
23:55he's a Muslim guy big beard Arsenal fan
23:58uh really into certain things uh does
24:01Turkish haircuts I mean it's just these
24:04layers
24:05>> of cultural influence he's of I think
24:08Pakistani origin he's doing Turkish
24:10haircuts
24:12>> he's very London you know it's it's a
24:15milange so people shouldn't be black and
24:17quite about what happens. So essentially
24:20westernization hasn't happened and the
24:22global political situation suggests
24:24quite strongly that it's something
24:25Americans never get. Yeah. Because their
24:28economy is so huge and so powerful
24:31they assume [music] the world is them.
24:37[music]
24:40>> Right? Let's uh let's move on to the
24:42next the next piece of advice. Uh so
24:44this is number 15.
24:46You will be drawn into the black hole of
24:49conformity without even knowing it.
24:51Start projects with a competitive
24:53review. So tell me about the black hole
24:55of conformity. Well, it's very easy.
24:57We've all worked on stuff. You got to
24:59crack this. This is great. It's all
25:00about this. You know, I think this is
25:02the key theme. I think we should be
25:03working around this area. And then a
25:06couple of days later, you see somebody
25:08else in the same category is doing
25:09exactly the same thing. Um it it's very
25:13easy to end up thinking you've got to
25:15something fresh and not. So always start
25:18by just looking at the category, looking
25:21at what's going on. I mean clearly the
25:23car brands in the world have completely
25:24forgotten about this obvious point to
25:26the point where you know they're kind of
25:29um urban SUVs. All the ads now from all
25:32the brands look exactly the same. And I
25:33think they have the same casting of kind
25:35of good-looking early30s women. The same
25:38group of people are acting in them. It's
25:40I mean it's deep fast almost.
25:42>> Um
25:43>> they're all they're all filmed on the
25:44same roads at the same hour of the
25:47>> somewhere around here. It's like
25:48Victoria, isn't it? It's sort of but
25:50sort of blanked out to make it look a
25:51little bit slicker. So, you know, it
25:53could be anywhere in the world. There's
25:55no there's nothing there's no reference
25:56point for you to hang on to. Um so, it's
25:59a very simple point. Just start by
26:01looking at what other people are doing
26:02to understand that uh and to see how you
26:05can either be different from it at a
26:07fundamental level. You may not be able
26:09to,
26:10>> but if you can't be that, at least be
26:11distinctive,
26:12>> right, in your approach.
26:14>> And I I think that that point about this
26:16thing that that's a really key point
26:18here, isn't it? And and I think it's
26:20something that um again coming back to
26:23future strategy report, we're seeing a
26:25lot of sort of current strategists
26:29really feel like strategy has to push in
26:33a distinctive direction. It can't it's
26:35not just down to the sort of creative to
26:39invent distinctiveness. It's it's it's
26:42about having a sort of distinct
26:44direction, a sort of clear vision of the
26:46future that that a brand can sort of
26:48work towards. And um how do you bust out
26:52of that conformity is something that
26:54strategy strategy really needs to be the
26:56sort of first step in that direction.
26:58Yeah, I mean it always helps if you're
27:00working upstream with clients because
27:02the truth is that if a company boss
27:05knows the direction they're going
27:07>> quite often that is quite a unique point
27:09of view on the world and if you can
27:10latch on to that and then drive that
27:13through that's enormously helpful.
27:16>> Um it's harder the lower kind of the
27:18more downstream you are.
27:20>> Yes, of course. Of course.
27:21>> I mean even on that sort of creative
27:23side there's a we we mentioned the the
27:26car ads. Uh I think I think it was Adam
27:28Morgan and uh Eat Big Fish called called
27:30it the the Meisto Walts where creatively
27:35brands in a category cuz they're always
27:37looking at each other tend to sort of
27:41circle around the same set of ideas or
27:43the same set of creative uh thinking so
27:46that everything ends up looking the
27:48same. Which is why when a challenger
27:50comes in with perhaps a sort of founders
27:52viewpoint or a different uh uh almost
27:55like a different starting point, it does
27:56seem to bust the cap uh the category
27:58open creatively because they haven't
28:01spent you know 10 years just watching uh
28:04the meisto dance. Jim Carroll called uh
28:07called it the wind tunnel effect because
28:09you remember that point where cars all
28:10started looking the same.
28:12>> Yes. Yes.
28:12>> It was because their process all of a
28:14sudden they got wind tunnels. to every
28:16major manufacturer and also all cars
28:18started to blend into the same thing.
28:20All the edges got [laughter]
28:22>> you went from, you know, 70s, early 80s
28:24cars which would looked very, you could
28:26always tell a brand at a distance
28:28without seeing a logo because it was a
28:29shape thing. And then all of a sudden,
28:31>> no, you can't you can't you couldn't you
28:33can't. And that feeds into the sort of
28:37uh age of average, which is Alex Morl's
28:40uh uh some great visual stuff I've seen
28:43on online about
28:44>> exactly how the same looks the same. And
28:48there's somebody's done some stuff,
28:49you're right, with logos showing how and
28:51luxury brands, they've all converted
28:53luxury brand
28:54>> to the same.
28:54>> Yeah. What started in tech has suddenly
28:56become this much much bigger thing.
28:58>> Have you ever heard of ice cream van
29:00theory?
29:01>> No. No. Totally.
29:02>> I don't know if this is true, but a
29:03writer friend of mine came. So imagine a
29:05park. It's perfectly symmetrical for the
29:08sake of this discussion. It's got four
29:09entrances. It's a sunny day. So your
29:11local ice cream, bam, you're selling ice
29:14cream. You go, "Right, I'm out." So you
29:15go and you're you go to the park. The
29:19park's criss-crossed by roads and quite
29:21symmetrical. Where do you park? You're
29:23the first van there.
29:25>> Oh. At which which would you park at an
29:27entrance? You park in the middle. Where
29:29do you park this? I'm asking you. Oh,
29:31you're asking me?
29:32>> Yes. It's an interactive session.
29:34>> My uh [laughter] my deep experience of
29:37parking ice cream vans. Uh, I I for the
29:41sake of argument, I'll park in the
29:42middle cuz that's probably closest to
29:44everybody in the park.
29:46>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, in truth, if the
29:48park's symmetrical and it's relatively
29:50flat, you can park anywhere cuz if you
29:52want an ice cream, you have to come to
29:53that one van.
29:54>> Yes.
29:54>> So, you can actually say you can be
29:56anywhere. If you're more ice cream vans
29:59go, right, it's big day for sales.
30:01They're coming out. You're the second
30:02van. Where do you park?
30:04>> As far away from the first one as
30:06possible, I guess. No, you parked right
30:08next to it.
30:09>> Right. Cuz everyone's already going,
30:10"Yeah." Okay. Okay. Oh, yes.
30:12>> Yes.
30:13>> Your third van. Where'd you park?
30:15>> Well, probably next to the other two.
30:18Park right next to each other. No.
30:20>> No. [laughter]
30:21>> So, you walked into that. I I knocked it
30:23out.
30:24>> So, uh, so I think what we've learned
30:26here is, uh, I should never go into the
30:28ice cream retail business.
30:29>> But you park away from the other two
30:32because all of a sudden, assuming all
30:34ice creams are roughly the same. If you
30:35go, I'll go to that corner. I will own
30:37everybody closest to me. Those two can
30:39own that bit. And all of a sudden,
30:40you'll find those other two ice cream
30:42fans will split up so that all of a
30:44sudden they'll start differentiating
30:45geographically. So, they each try and
30:48own a third of the park. So, I'll go
30:49down that lane, he goes up there, she
30:51goes down there.
30:52>> Uh, and that's what happens. You get in
30:53markets duopies,
30:55>> get a lot of duopolies in Australia,
30:57airlines, chickens, would you believe,
31:00um, bread and then a third challenger
31:02player comes and that's when you get
31:04differentiation.
31:05>> Interesting. because it forces the two
31:07main players to think slightly
31:08differently
31:09>> and the challenger can be very obviously
31:11different. So I think it kind of holds
31:13water as a theory. It's
31:14>> quite interesting. It's really
31:15interesting. Yes. Well, okay, I'll go
31:17and brush up on my ice cream
31:19distribution. Um
31:21>> right, let's move on to uh to the next
31:23one. So uh I I thought this was a really
31:25interesting one and very very relevant
31:27at the moment. Advertising in its
31:30current forms may well be a declining
31:32force, but brands and creativity won't
31:35be. Know where your future lies.
31:38>> Discuss.
31:39>> Yeah. Well, I mean, you mentioned it at
31:40the start, didn't you? The industry is
31:41under a fair amount of pressure. I think
31:44especially Well, let's have if you
31:45actually look at the numbers,
31:46advertising spend goes up hugely
31:48globally every year.
31:49>> Oh, yeah. I mean, I mean, massively.
31:51>> This is the sort of paradox of the
31:52industry is that there has never been
31:54more money spent on advertising. And in
31:57to some degree, advertising has busted
32:00its um uh its relationship with GDP
32:03growth. It's actually been growing
32:04faster than GDP growth um for a whole
32:06host of reasons that will be an entirely
32:08different podcast. But the gains, the
32:12additional money going into the uh into
32:15advertising are not being captured by
32:19what has been known as the advertising
32:21industry.
32:22>> Yeah, precisely that. I mean you can see
32:24I mean that that as you say absolutely
32:26is the paradox uh because more and more
32:28of it is going straight to the platforms
32:30more and more of it is going to be
32:31utterly mechanized. Uh so you're ending
32:34up in a world where the pure brand
32:36portion of it and the agencies that like
32:38to deal with that it's getting smaller
32:41and smaller and smaller and harder and
32:43harder. Now if you're a client you've
32:45now got a lot more levers. When I
32:47started in the business, actually the
32:48truth is above line advertising was the
32:51biggest impact on your business you
32:52could do as a marketer.
32:54>> It really was big. But now there's
32:56multiple levers and the relative effect
32:59of that is less. So they've started
33:01allocating money on many other things.
33:03So I think as a planner you've just
33:05simply be cognizant of the fact that
33:07brands aren't going anywhere because as
33:09humans we need uh social markers, we
33:12need simplifiers for our choice.
33:15the mechanisms by which they are built
33:18are changing. Uh and I think that's just
33:21the point that is at the heart of that.
33:24So get to understand other areas of
33:27brand building. Get to understand
33:29design. Get to understand how the
33:31world's going in terms of automation.
33:33All these things you need to know about
33:36and kind of embrace. And from a
33:39strategist point of view,
33:42uh I keep plugging the walk future
33:44strategy report. This is top of mind at
33:46the moment because we've we've just been
33:48looking at this. Is there is there an
33:50argument that if you're a young
33:52strategist, you should be trying to
33:54expose yourself to lots of different
33:57flavors of strategy. And what I mean by
34:00that is should you try and spend time uh
34:03looking at comm strategy or upstream
34:07brand strategy or strategy in a PR
34:10agency or does it does it help to to get
34:13that breadth of
34:13>> I think mediacom strategy is a different
34:15specialism at at heart it's heavily
34:17related but that's that's a lifetime of
34:20work to learn about that certainly go
34:21upstream
34:23>> because if you start to understand the
34:25fundamentals of how you build and
34:27position a brand you are in a a stronger
34:29place in terms of that. I would also,
34:33you know, I talked about design. I'd
34:34start to learn a lot about influencer
34:36marketing.
34:37>> It's gone through a boom. It'll go
34:38through a bit of a bust, but it'll carry
34:40on. And the role of PR in building
34:42brands. So, in your 20s, focus on all
34:45the different levers. And that might
34:47include a sort of stint on the client
34:49side, I guess, because
34:50>> absolutely because then you'll see the
34:51the actual complexity of marketing and
34:55the different elements of it and the
34:56fact that communications and advertising
34:58is actually just one portion of it
35:00compared to, you know, distribution and
35:02pricing, product design, all of those
35:04aspects of things which people in
35:06advertising don't really think about.
35:08Yeah.
35:08>> Or and and it's not really their job to
35:10think about it either. So I think a
35:12client side stint
35:13>> probably is really useful. It will also
35:16help you when you go back into the
35:17advertising business
35:20to navigate client companies. Uh I mean
35:23I've never been on the client side on a
35:25full-time basis. So I don't have that
35:28skill but I think it would be a very
35:29useful skill to know how marketing
35:31departments operate and how they then
35:33relate to senior management within a big
35:35business.
35:36>> But I Yeah. So it's it's a challenging
35:39time. I think one of the things I was
35:40going to ask you about this actually
35:42dude.
35:42>> Yeah.
35:43>> Don't worry it's not about ice cream.
35:44[laughter]
35:45I've already failed that one.
35:47>> You you guys have all the data. I mean,
35:48it's fabulous report. You've done the
35:50the what is it? The multiplier effect
35:51report.
35:52>> Yes. Yes.
35:53>> Uh IPA, Lawrence Green, and that team
35:55there. They have all the data on despite
35:58what we've just been talking about, the
36:00continued importance of long-term
36:01thinking for brands.
36:02>> Yeah.
36:03>> Repetition, focus, uh and actually the
36:06continued power of brand advertising at
36:09home. And we're constantly,
36:12well, you guys are constantly promoting
36:14that. Lots of us on LinkedIn are
36:16constantly promoting that. Do you think
36:18it's been listened to by business?
36:19>> I think it's been listened to by
36:23uh marketing teams.
36:24>> Yeah.
36:25>> So, it's it's funny actually. You're
36:27you've caught us right in the middle of
36:29of creating the next round of the
36:31multiplier effect,
36:32>> right? Okay.
36:33>> Um and uh spoiler alert, uh we're
36:37calling it like the multiplier playbook.
36:38And the the issue uh we've seen having
36:43produced the multiplier effect and and
36:45toured it and and all the rest is um a
36:48huge buy in from client side marketers.
36:50Huge interest. The issue is for me or
36:54one of the major issues is the
36:56relationship between marketers and the
36:58rest of the organization and how we sort
37:02of frame brand building and I I I use
37:06the term brand building rather than
37:07brand advertising. So I agree with you.
37:09I I think if we only see brand building
37:12as an advertising uh exercise um we've
37:16already lost the battle. But how we
37:19frame brand building in a way that makes
37:22sense for a modern datari datadriven
37:26data oriented business and the word
37:30brand itself may be part of the problem.
37:33We we all think in our industry and in
37:35this room that brand is this incredibly
37:37powerful force and I think there is a
37:40lot of
37:41>> uh data to back that up that it is still
37:43a really powerful force. But ironically
37:46the brand of brand is is quite poor um
37:49outside of the marketing department. So
37:52I think there is a real sort of tension
37:54between marketers and the rest of the
37:56business. And the the point of the
37:58follow-up to the multiplier effect is
38:00how do we help CMOs and senior marketers
38:03with that part of the equation rather
38:06than just trying to give them more data
38:09that that shows what lots of people have
38:11now shown that there is there's
38:13something here and we need to be
38:15investing in the right way. It it's
38:17actually further up the chain that the
38:19real the real blockers are, I think.
38:21>> Yeah, that's great. I mean, I think
38:22you're absolutely right. I think that's
38:23really interesting. I think that's where
38:24the disconnect is.
38:32All right. Okay. Uh, I've got one more.
38:34I've got one more that I want to I want
38:36to sort of touch on. Uh, well, it's
38:38actually two of them together, but uh,
38:40but I think they work quite nicely as a
38:42pair. So, the first one is number 64. If
38:44the brands you work on don't stand for
38:46something, they'll stand for nothing.
38:48And nothing is neither memorable or
38:50motivating.
38:52And I've paired that with number 82,
38:54which is as much as you know what the
38:55brand is for, know what it stands
38:57against.
38:59I just want to explore this idea of
39:01standing for and against something and
39:03what what you mean by that because I I
39:05guess it would be easy to sort of segue
39:09from there into a sort of purpose
39:11discussion, but I suspect you mean
39:13something quite different uh or or or
39:16more nuanced maybe. Well, I think the
39:18whole purpose debate is interesting and
39:20I think the error people and it kind of
39:22relates to this. The error people have I
39:25heard Mark Ritson inveying against it.
39:27The error I think he and many others
39:29made it is conflating purpose with
39:30goodness.
39:32>> Why the word purpose that it's what your
39:35role in society is to do. Talk to Mara
39:37cigarettes, they would have had a
39:38purpose.
39:39>> You know what I mean? But it won't have
39:40been good or charity.
39:42>> No, definitely [laughter] not. No. But
39:44so I think there is an important
39:46distinction there and the industry
39:49partially because some of the things we
39:50talked about earlier in terms of the
39:53kind of nature of the liberal bubble
39:55almost apologetic for what it does
39:57immediately went down the it's got to be
39:59about goodness actually no it doesn't
40:02what I think is enormously helpful for
40:04brands is to define what they're here to
40:06do and what they are as I said fighting
40:09for and fighting against in fact that
40:11was came from a model a friend in China
40:13gave and he had this it's a wonderful
40:15model. It say it's a coat of arms and on
40:17the left you write what are you fighting
40:19for and the right hand side what what
40:21are you fighting against and the bottom
40:23bit of the code of arms is what's your
40:25weapon what are your weapons that you're
40:27in this fight and all it does it helps
40:30uh teams and brand owners go what are we
40:33actually here to do I mean what's walk
40:36fighting for
40:37>> fighting for better marketing more
40:39effective marketing
40:40>> what's it fighting against
40:42>> crap marketing
40:43>> okay we can tease a bit more out of
40:45[laughter] But you see what I mean?
40:46Immediately you go, "That's what we're
40:48doing." And if you don't do that, you
40:51end up with, you know, urban SUV ads.
40:54>> Yes.
40:55>> It's as simple as that. You've got to
40:57know what you're here to do. That can be
41:00completely frivolous.
41:02You know, better tasting biscuits and
41:04ones that don't taste a car. I don't
41:05know. Whatever it is, it can be utterly
41:08frivolous. But be very clear about that.
41:10And if you have enemies, great.
41:12Theoretical enemies because again, it
41:14just gives you definition. And people
41:17like I mean there's a reason football
41:18managers go into changing rooms and tell
41:21us they all bloody hate us. They're all
41:23against us. The media is scam, you know.
41:25It's why Ferguson spent a lifetime doing
41:27that at Manu and they were the best team
41:29in the world at the time.
41:30>> The sense of underdog. He managed to
41:33make them feel like underdog so they
41:34fought harder.
41:36>> It's just basic psychology. So know what
41:38you're there to do. Um have a sense of
41:41purpose, have a sense of mission.
41:43Otherwise, you're just wandering around.
41:45There's no emotion involved in it. And
41:47from a strategy strategy point, where
41:50did where should that come from? Because
41:52from a you would think that should be
41:55built into
41:57uh you know a brand's DNA but is it the
42:00role of the strategist in the agency to
42:02help surface that or to understand that
42:04or to bring that into the brief where
42:07where does uh where does the strategist
42:10come into that that
42:11>> um I think the mistake and some clients
42:14make it as well they ask a consultant or
42:15agency to tell them who to be
42:18>> what are we what's our point of
42:21differentiation what's our mission It's
42:22completely wrong. I I think the
42:24strategist's role and the agency team's
42:27role working closely with marketers is
42:29to tease out from the organization who
42:31they really are, what they are really
42:34about, what their ambitions really are.
42:37Again, we're talking about going a bit
42:38upstream on that. Most of my work is in
42:40this area now.
42:42>> Um, so I realize it is difficult if
42:44you're on an agency team,
42:45>> but that's where it comes. You can't
42:47apply something, you know, kind of layer
42:49on top of an organization. An
42:50organization is like an organism. It has
42:52its own character. You part of the job
42:55is to understand what that is and then
42:58shine the best light you can possibly on
43:00it. Simple as that. Tease out the truth
43:03of what's already there. Shear away all
43:05the excess stuff and PowerPoint
43:07documents and corporate waffle and go
43:09actually you're about that. And the best
43:10way to do that time and again is to work
43:13with senior marketers and their
43:15management team beyond marketing. M
43:17>> you want to know how human resources are
43:20operating. You want to know what the CEO
43:22thinks.
43:24That's where you need to be to really
43:26get to grips with what they're about as
43:28a as an organization.
43:30>> Fantastic. Well, I think that's a
43:32perfect place to leave it. Charles,
43:34thank you so much for for coming in. Uh
43:36the book, as a reminder, is Chaz's 100
43:39things a planner should know by Charles
43:41Wiggley. Um I'd say perfect stocking
43:44filler for the strategist in your life.
43:46>> Ideal. I don't think planners can live
43:47without it, David. Frankly,
43:51if you like what you heard, please do
43:53follow us on your favorite podcasting
43:55platform. And if you really liked it,
43:57please do leave us a review. Until next
43:59time, thanks for listening.
44:04[music]

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