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Revenge of The Red Pill - Cassie Jaye | Maiden Mother Matriarch 78 — Transcript

by Maiden Mother Matriarch with Louise Perry · 8,070 words · 1,125 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00hello and welcome to made mother
0:01matriarch with me Lise Perry my guest
0:03today is Cassie J documentary filmmaker
0:05best known for her 2016 documentary The
0:09Red Pill which was enormously
0:10controversial at the time because Cassie
0:13started off making this film from a
0:15feminist perspective and then over the
0:17course of it she ended up being um
0:20somewhat persuaded by the men's rights
0:21activist position and uh that didn't go
0:24down well with a lot of critics we spoke
0:26about how she now feels eight years on
0:29the points on which she agrees disagrees
0:32with Ben right's activism the points on
0:34which I disagree and disagree with the
0:36mras um and we also spoke about uh
0:38motherhood and feminist attitudes
0:40towards motherhood because Cassie is now
0:42a stay-at home mom and uh mom of
0:45two that was mostly in the extended
0:48version of the episode which is
0:49available at Louise perry. subs.com
0:52where you can also as always find the
0:54bonus episodes I do fortnit Le with my
0:56husband theback catalog of extended
0:59episodes and also the M chat Community
1:01enjoy many of you will know that
1:03Christianity is a subject of Fascination
1:05for me and the role of Christianity in
1:07shaping the modern world is a theme I
1:10return to again and again on the podcast
1:12my view is that we really can't
1:14understand the world or ourselves
1:15without getting to grips with it which
1:17is why I'm very glad to point you
1:19towards a new online course called 321
1:22it's an introduction to Christianity
1:24that's imaginative thoughtful engaging
1:26it assumes absolutely no prior knowledge
1:28it's presented by the wonderful Glenn
1:30scrier who has been a guest on the mm
1:32podcast previously and I've also been a
1:34guest on his show Glenn presents eight
1:37video Leed sessions which are based
1:38around some beautiful animated stories
1:40that illustrate the Christian message
1:42you can check it out for free at 321c
1:44course.com
1:46just enter your email choose a password
1:49and you're in there's no spam there's no
1:51fees just visit 321 course.com
1:55slmm and now on to the show
2:02[Music]
2:07Cassie can we start by talking about the
2:08red pill so it's quite a long time ago
2:10now um but it made a very big splash at
2:14the time and I remember the Big Splash
2:16eight years
2:17ago could you tell us a little bit tell
2:20us about the documentary about the
2:21responses and then what I really want to
2:23learn about is what how you feel about
2:24it now is on yeah the response to the
2:27red pill was um
2:30it was heated I
2:33think reflecting on it I can see these
2:37obvious pendulum swings like when uh the
2:40film at first there was uh no interest
2:43in the film when I was trying to get
2:46funding to complete it because I had
2:48already worked on it for about two years
2:51maybe more and I had run down funding
2:54and I really wanted to make it but I I
2:55just couldn't do the rest of it uh on my
2:58own and so when I I started to contact
3:01sources from uh who funded my previous
3:04films which were largely about women's
3:06rights and LGBT issues and just
3:09different um gender issues uh they
3:12really didn't want to touch the red pill
3:15they didn't want to see a film made like
3:16the red pill um so you know I was kind
3:19of just getting radio silence and um I
3:23was also kind of at a point where like
3:25well if it's not completed um I'll
3:27actually just start a family and move on
3:29with my life and I had already put a lot
3:31of time and effort and Blood Sweat and
3:33Tears into it and I I was I was pretty
3:36uh exhausted from the fight of just
3:38trying to complete it from a very
3:40apathetic uh audience yeah of people who
3:44could actually help me complete it so
3:45was it was a um last Stitch effort and
3:49uh and then I had had this Kickstarter
3:51Campaign which now is probably kind of a
3:52relic but it's you know a crowdfunding
3:55campaign to um make a project happen and
3:59we got so so much support from that
4:01Kickstarter campaign that was really
4:04even at the time it was really
4:05groundbreaking for Kickstarter I
4:06remember they they were contacting me
4:08saying wow we've never seen a
4:09documentary that's had so much support
4:12and traction and been talked about so
4:14much in the media and so with the surge
4:17of support to help finish the film then
4:22came this surge of critique and uh let's
4:26actually attack what what this filmmaker
4:28claims to be trying to do and so then
4:31that's when I I started getting a lot of
4:33um negative uh
4:36press and um and then again that just
4:39kind of inspired more support because
4:42you know people love to be contrarians
4:44and so if they see you know an article
4:45attacking one thing they want to make
4:47the argument of why well maybe you
4:48shouldn't be attacking that thing and
4:49here's why so now that I look back on it
4:53so many years later I I see the pendulum
4:55swings of the first few years of its
4:59release uh because it was really kind of
5:01a I would say a
5:032-year um press uh press tour of the
5:08film I was traveling to the UK and
5:10Canada and Australia and uh there were
5:13colleges that were Banning the film and
5:16uh mainstream news people were
5:19critiquing the film who admittedly had
5:22never seen the film but disagreed with
5:24it on principle so it was just a
5:26constant uh pingpong match of this is
5:29why we hate the film this is why we love
5:31the film this is why we support it being
5:32out there this is why it should never be
5:33out there it was intense and
5:38I I think I got to a point where I just
5:41let it all be chatter in my head um
5:44actually was trying to drown it out with
5:46white noise or something because I had
5:48no control over what other people would
5:50say about it or think about it no matter
5:51how many times I tried to um correct
5:55falsehoods that were spread about the
5:56film or about me uh the amount of just
5:59outright lies that were spread about me
6:02um you know things that were actually
6:04really easy to uh check and verify about
6:09me like whether or not I was a feminist
6:11to begin with that was something that a
6:13lot of critics wanted to argue was
6:15whether or not I was a feminist to begin
6:16with and if I really had this kind of
6:18red pill journey and and changed my mind
6:20and and I get that like from an
6:23Outsiders point of view it is it kind of
6:25sounds like this
6:27Fantastical uh scripted you know Heroes
6:31Journey sort of thing that um that it's
6:33almost like well that's just too perfect
6:35to be true because that's just the crazy
6:37thing that she would go she would start
6:39at one end and then go on this you know
6:41enlightening journey and then become
6:43something else in the end and just for
6:46clarity I am not a men's rights activist
6:49I am not an activist I'm a documentary
6:51filmmaker or at least was now I'm a
6:53state home mom um but I yeah I've never
6:59claimed to be an activist never claimed
7:01to be a men's rights activist for sure
7:03and um but I was a feminist for for
7:07about strongly a decade before making
7:10the red pill and I started the red pill
7:12in 2013 so now it's been quite almost
7:14decade later or over but uh yeah so it's
7:19it was it was a a stressful time but I'm
7:22I'm glad it's out in the world and
7:24honestly I feel like I have to be kind
7:27of detached from whatever
7:32symbolism it's become in
7:35culture
7:37um I just to protect myself in my own
7:40sanity I just have to let it be and also
7:43my my online image or what people think
7:45of me I just have to let it be online
7:48and not go Googling myself or I mean
7:51that's why I don't
7:53um why I don't really participate in
7:55Twitter I I don't go on Facebook anymore
7:57I don't I'm very kind of removed from
7:59all social media and um but I I still do
8:04really love the film I made and stand
8:07behind um its Integrity when I made it
8:11um I as any creative I I think there's
8:16places I could have done a little bit
8:18differently to make it a little bit
8:19better or more effective or covered some
8:22topics that were really important to
8:23cover that weren't in there but um but
8:25overall I know that um my heart was in
8:29the right place when I made it it was
8:30the truth of my journey it was the the
8:32meat of the interviews I gathered while
8:35I was filming it was some really
8:38important aha moments I learned that I
8:40wanted to relay to the average person
8:43who would never go on a journey like
8:44this but I wanted them to at least
8:46consider that for a moment while
8:47watching the film and um so I I am proud
8:50of the film and and uh it's kind of a
8:53little time stamp in history too because
8:56it it happened right well I I relas
8:59released the film in theaters right
9:00before Trump was elected and then and
9:04then shortly after me too came around
9:06and then that was it it was first Cosby
9:08and then um Harvey Weinstein and so it
9:12was quite a um a heated time in history
9:16I'll say that that I've had multiple
9:18listeners request um that I speak to you
9:21for the podcast because they like the
9:23film so much so you know eight years on
9:25is still you still have um you still
9:28have fans um I'm interested in learning
9:31more about the timeline right so I mean
9:33I know enough about film making to know
9:35that it uh not everything is filmed in
9:37sequence and it takes a long time so the
9:40story of the documentary is that you go
9:43from being a feminist to to to not being
9:45and I think your last words are
9:47something like I no longer describe
9:48myself as a feminist apologies as well
9:50to listeners my toddler is having a
9:51tantrum in the background but I I'm I'm
9:53I'm not responsible for him so this
9:56is I'm not being NE your father
10:00um uh so yeah so that's your sign of
10:03Journey Across the the course of the
10:06film narrative how did that map onto
10:09your experience of writing of actually
10:11making the film like basically how
10:13quickly were you
10:14persuaded by your interviewees not
10:17quickly
10:19um I you know I tried to get through or
10:22get across in the film with my video
10:25diaries that it was a struggle to
10:28understand what they're saying and and
10:29to kind of let my um preconceived
10:33notions down as well as just my my anger
10:37about uh gender politics and and really
10:40feeling like women's issues weren't
10:41being addressed when men's rights
10:42activists were talking about what they
10:44were experiencing and um I really
10:48struggled and and for people who don't
10:52know this uh the video diaries were not
10:54meant to be included in the film at
10:56first um I was making video back when I
10:59was a teenager um just as a way to like
11:02bounce ideas off in my head and and feel
11:04like I was talking to someone while
11:06having the um the safety of actually not
11:09having someone hear all of my inner
11:11thoughts um but I I was using the video
11:16diaries during production to kind of
11:19track what what were my Hang-Ups with
11:22what they were saying what what was my
11:23knee-jerk reaction so I could understand
11:25who what my audience would think after
11:28hearing these comments by Mr ra um so it
11:31was just kind of a a way to better
11:34inform my editing choices and how to
11:36tell this story um but yeah it was it I
11:42think the first person who
11:44really kind of made a little crack in in
11:46my hard feminist shell was uh Aaron
11:50pizzy uh who is um the woman who started
11:53the first women's shelter in London in
11:57in the world but it was in London and um
12:00and so she spoke in the film about uh
12:03seeing the need
12:04for male victims to have Refuge but
12:07being denied and and also how uh it was
12:10a
12:11um there was a bit of reciprocity in um
12:16not all but many uh violent households
12:20um of of you know women who are also had
12:25uh you know poor coping skills um or or
12:28way of communicating or um or just
12:32judgment on how to pick a partner and
12:34many many things but um but there were
12:37you know violent women who are also
12:38finding themselves married to Violent
12:39Men I think why she really spoke to me
12:43in our interview
12:46um was because she didn't she knew all
12:50the women's issues and she would
12:51acknowledge those and validate those
12:54right as I would ask her about well what
12:55about this some women's issue what about
12:58this and
12:59and she was always very validating of
13:01that um like yes that is an issue and
13:03and we are so glad that we have these
13:05organizations that are working towards
13:07these things but let's talk about the
13:09the ignored half the the downtrod and
13:12the the underdog that's really doesn't
13:14have the funding doesn't have the
13:15compassion even uh in in modern
13:19mainstream media dialogue yeah so maybe
13:22just talking to a woman and Elder woman
13:24who's really seen a lot of life it it
13:26helped me see okay it doesn't have to be
13:28an either or it can be and plus this um
13:32which I don't know if the red pill just
13:35to be my own critic um I don't know if
13:37the red
13:39pill you know did that enough but it's
13:42kind of the thing that's it's hour and a
13:44half long film you you only have so much
13:46time I it's the only film it's I think
13:49still to dat about the men's Rights
13:52Movement about their ideology or
13:54philosophy so you know to to even give
13:57half of an hour and a half long film
14:00time towards women's issues when that's
14:02all the you know gender political
14:04documentaries you could get out there
14:06are really about women's issues or LGBT
14:08issues um you know it it kind of felt
14:10like a real disservice to give so much
14:14more air time to women's issues and
14:16rights when there's already so much of
14:18that out there so so the red pill is not
14:19meant to be a um this is the whole big
14:22picture you don't need to watch any
14:24other gender film this will tell you it
14:25all it's not meant to be that it's meant
14:27to be a in addition to everything else
14:30you're hearing about uh gender rights
14:33here's another perspective and you know
14:36again I'm not a men rights activist so I
14:38was really just um you know I started
14:41out as a
14:42feminist planned on exposing them as
14:46misogynists as as violent
14:49uh people who are keeping women down and
14:53encouraging rape culture and all these
14:54things and um and it just wasn't the
14:57truth of what I investigated did you
15:00predict the backlash that you ended up
15:03getting did you know that that that
15:06portraying this um change of mind on
15:08your part would um make some FS Furious
15:11if I really had to put myself back to
15:13when the the film was released in
15:16theaters uh that was
15:182016 I was actually expecting it to just
15:21be a
15:22sleeper uh people not really pay
15:24attention to it it's boring why are we
15:26going to talk about men who are upset
15:28with being a man uh you know it's just
15:32not cool it's not in it's not in Vogue
15:35right now you know there are so much
15:37about um women's rights I mean even to
15:39the point of uh film organ film funding
15:44organizations seeking out and wanting
15:47films about women's stories and you know
15:49there being nothing virtually nothing
15:51that I could fit this film into a
15:53category of uh here's a organization
15:57that would support this there was just
15:59and probably even still now I don't
16:00think there's that kind of um you
16:04know yeah uh what would you call it like
16:07motivation there's just not
16:09motivation um to have films like this
16:11made
16:13so yeah I thought it was going to be
16:15sleeper I thought it would just kind of
16:17disappear and into nothing and and but I
16:20was glad that I finished it because it
16:22was in my head it was in my heart I I
16:24really wanted to see it through and I'm
16:27glad I did so I I kind of had a piece
16:29about releasing it like well I I did my
16:31best I don't think it's going to go
16:32anywhere um but I I do think the anger
16:37like the very visceral anger that came
16:39out of um the mainstream media that were
16:42reporting on the film
16:45um that's what got the you know the ball
16:49rolling and then and I guess that's why
16:51they say any press is good press because
16:53that's it's like a lot of the really bad
16:56press we got early on that weren't
16:58necessarily attacking the film it was
17:00attacking the idea behind the film it
17:03wasn't actually the filmm itself um that
17:08was what made people want to then watch
17:09it um to have a debate and I love that
17:12that's why I went into documentary film
17:14making to begin with was I just wanted
17:16to share a different perspective not
17:18necessarily preach any me message of my
17:21own but but let it be a conversation
17:23starter and you know one of my favorite
17:26things I do with um the people I love in
17:28my life is we just have really deep
17:30philosophical conversations about
17:32anything but we like to play Devil's
17:35Advocate and um and I think the red pill
17:38is like a perfect piece to start with
17:40too like critique it please critique it
17:43that's what I want people to do with it
17:44so I watched the whole thing um
17:46yesterday and I I um I paid careful
17:50attention to my own emotional responses
17:52right so most um most listeners will
17:55know but um you may not know I used to
17:57working R crisis I like I have a
17:59background as being a very
18:01um like really walking the walk kind of
18:04feminist right and I now take a very
18:07heterodox View and all sorts of things
18:09and I I thought other in general though
18:12I find I don't find men rights men's
18:14rights activist specifically especially
18:16persuasive I mean we'll get into the
18:18some of the specifics maybe I thought
18:20maybe I would find it would make me
18:22angry or something like that you know
18:24not not the fact of the film or anything
18:25but just their sort of listening to
18:27their arguments it didn't make me feel
18:30angry and I think that the I think the
18:31film is balanced and I think it does a
18:33good job and you hear from like people
18:34eron py very interesting to hear from
18:36you know I think it's a good film The
18:38the men's rights activist arguments they
18:42kind of um they gave me the ick that was
18:45the that was the that was the physical
18:46response I had from it and I spoke
18:48actually to a male friend this morning
18:49about this because he he's also seen the
18:51film we were talking about this and he
18:53said they also kind of gave him the ick
18:55but in the same way and I was
18:59I think what's going on there and I want
19:01to ask you in a second you know how you
19:02feel about some of these positions now a
19:04years on is I think that it's really
19:08hard for men to um What men's rise
19:12activism kind of does is like flip the
19:14script on feminism it says you know okay
19:16if you if you care about gender equality
19:18and treating men and women equally um
19:21here is all here are all the ways where
19:22we fall short on that and here are all
19:24the ways in which men are disadvantaged
19:25and so on and like in the statistics and
19:27stuff they're not wrong um mostly I kind
19:29of disagree with domestic violence stuff
19:30but in general they're not wrong um it's
19:32more like it doesn't work men inhabiting
19:36men sort of qua men inhabiting the role
19:39of victimized
19:41class doesn't work on people I think I
19:44think that there's a psychological
19:46response where both men and women
19:47generally respond to
19:49this with the ick I think it's just I
19:53don't know how you feel about that I
19:54think it's I think that's a big part of
19:56the reason why people don't like men's
19:57rights activism because that idea of men
20:00it's basically
20:01emasculating inhabiting that role the
20:04first time I heard that was actually
20:06from Men's rights activists interesting
20:08interesting where they said this is not
20:12you know this is not a position where
20:13you're going to be getting women
20:15interested in dating you or uh you know
20:18family members interested in you know
20:20supporting you or railing with you on
20:22the streets
20:24um and yeah they self- admittedly said
20:28like this is this uh you know there's
20:30something Primal in us that we want
20:33strong men we don't want men to complain
20:36we we want men to be our protectors we
20:39want them to be your provider and if
20:41they're having to sacrifice even in in
20:44um in sacrifice of their own health uh
20:47to support their family to support their
20:49Community um you know look at all these
20:51occupations that are dangerous you don't
20:53want your police officer complaining
20:55about uh you know really anything if if
20:58they're there on a house call and ready
21:00to protect you they um you know they do
21:03have to bottle up their emotions look at
21:04soldiers in the Army from making the red
21:07pill I do see that the way gender roles
21:11have split off I do now believe is um
21:16fundamentally uh grounded in just the
21:20way the cards fell biologically it's
21:24women bearing children breastfeeding you
21:26know the postpartum toll takes on your
21:29body all these things and and then that
21:30we do need to protect and and you know
21:34there could be all this uh debate about
21:35well Wars have always been started by
21:37men yes but usually Wars are to gain
21:39resources and resources were to provide
21:41for families and to make things easier
21:43for their loved ones so it's been a lot
21:46of um history in the making to lead to
21:49these gender roles that uh now we're
21:51trying you know the last many decades
21:53we're trying to deconstruct well how
21:55much is um nature versus nurture of
21:57these roles
21:59um but yes going back to what you said
22:02men's rights activists uh were the first
22:05to admit to me that um this is
22:08emasculating for us to be in this
22:10position I would also add that activists
22:13in general you're getting the most
22:15extreme of an ideology you know if
22:18you're going to talk to you know the
22:21feminist activist that really it's like
22:23their their lifelong Pursuit um you're
22:26getting a very specific type of
22:29Personality um and also so much so
22:33something I I've really become
22:35passionate about since making all my
22:37films has um been been digging into
22:40trauma because when it when it comes
22:42to gender politics and the activists
22:46that come out in support of these issues
22:49it almost always I've seen starts with a
22:52personal trauma in their life there I
22:55have met some activists who did not have
22:58a person trauma that led them to be an
22:59activist for instance Mark angelucci who
23:02was in the red pill and was men's rights
23:05lawyer he he came to the men's rights
23:07movement because his his best friend was
23:09being abused in a domestic violence
23:11situation and so he he wanted to use his
23:14um you know lock background to help men
23:16like his best friend but but for the
23:19vast majority of activists they are
23:21coming from such a um a really deep
23:26emotional wound that happened in their
23:28past that led them to be the activist
23:30they are now and um and also to be an
23:33activist you have to be passionate and
23:36and so you
23:37know also I gosh I remember I think it
23:40was Gloria steum said something like we
23:42have to keep women angry um and you know
23:46that I think that's with a lot of
23:49activist movements it's like
23:52anger is the driving force for that
23:55movement and you have to keep them angry
23:57because that's the emotion that gets
24:00that's the squeaky wheel that that gets
24:02the the funding so um yeah so I
24:07understand the the feeling of dick I
24:09think you know you just gotta it's good
24:12to recognize that feeling and I I think
24:14that Menor activists can not all of them
24:17I mean you know some are less um uh
24:20self-aware but but I do think a lot of
24:23them know that it's you know it's not
24:25popular to be in that kind of position I
24:27think that just adds to my compassion
24:29for them though is that as women we are
24:32really encouraged to share our feelings
24:35and and um it's almost a way to bond
24:39with other women it's also a way to
24:42gain sympathy or
24:46even services from men um I think
24:50there's even a a science behind like
24:53tears garnering sympathy and and like
24:56the actual substance so so yeah there
24:59women really kind of have that to our
25:02advantage that that we're able to um
25:04share our emotions and have people
25:06respond with wanting to help and men
25:08don't really have that
25:10same privilege the inconsistency there I
25:13think is absolutely true I'm sure you've
25:15heard of the women a wonderful bias
25:16cognitive bias where people will in in
25:19sort of uh lab tests will choose to
25:23favor women will choose to save women's
25:25lives we will will um be biased towards
25:27women
25:28um all else being equal when it comes to
25:31things like protection and that's
25:32particularly clear I mean I think one of
25:34the most um persuasive bits of um the
25:36red pill is the bit about bah Haram the
25:38fact that there was such a big
25:40International response to um the girls
25:43being kidnapped by bah Haram and really
25:46no response to the boys being murdered
25:50which of I mean in like
25:52traditional I mean not even traditional
25:55it's obviously contemporary in in in in
25:58in human conflicts that is the classic
26:00pattern where the men are murdered and
26:02the women are taken as sex slaves and um
26:05and yet in that case um the sympathy was
26:09exclusively for the women I think that's
26:11true the women a wonderful bias is true
26:13and once you see it you sort of you see
26:15it everywhere the bits where I think the
26:17men's rights activists have a um make a
26:19good point they are right basically they
26:22are completely right in that there is a
26:25very stupid version of feminism which is
26:27really quite popular so the version of
26:30feminism that says that like women are
26:32disadvantaged always and everywhere that
26:34the cause of this is this kind of vague
26:37I don't know patriarchy like Society
26:40this almost this kind of dark matter
26:41that you can't see you can't touch but
26:43it's there and it's and it's making
26:45women's lives worse in lots of ways um
26:48and that uh this this is clearly not
26:52true always and everywhere and things
26:54like yes the fact that men die more in
26:55workplace accidents than women do that
26:57women do the men do more dangerous and
26:59difficult jobs than women do you know
27:01all of that stuff is um true I guess
27:04where I
27:06diverge is
27:08on the idea that this is like
27:12a that it's all about school settling it
27:16seems as if in some ways men's right
27:18activism ends up just being the mirror
27:20of the stupid kind of
27:23feminism where it's just like top it's
27:25just like a a tally of no no here's the
27:27way in which your sex sucks and my sex
27:29is great you know like in it in its
27:31worst iteration um whereas I guess my
27:34position now over time is more that men
27:36and you know as you were saying that
27:38this stuff is all Downstream of biology
27:40and it's been honed over over over
27:42Millennia and that men and women have
27:45complimentary
27:47roles um and that we need each other and
27:51that sometimes you know sometimes
27:54sometimes our our natural differences
27:56are in ttention with one another and
27:57sometimes not but yeah I wonder how you
28:00feel about men's I eight years on you
28:02know how do you how how's your view
28:04evolved I hear that I think uh that was
28:07probably the what I said in many of my
28:11video diaries while making the red pill
28:12was I I feel like what they're
28:16critiquing feminism over aren't they
28:18just doing the same thing and and
28:20reversing the the sex um
28:25I you know when I would bring up that
28:27argument to them uh they would say yes
28:30well we're just trying to be the the
28:32counter position to add balance to the
28:35conversation and and where I I kind of
28:38landed you know even now so many years
28:41later I you know I'd rather like to walk
28:45my life being the balance rather than
28:48trying to be the counterbalance to
28:49something um you know just to live your
28:53life like like the world that you want
28:54to live in isn't that some good quote
28:57like what is that quote I can't remember
29:00but like yeah just be be the person or
29:03you want to see in the world or
29:04something like that anyways
29:06um I think a lot
29:10of gender tension even when it comes to
29:13something well it's not as simple but
29:15something as simple as um marriages not
29:19simple but uh I think a lot of gender
29:22tension comes down to a really um
29:27self-de practice that we a lot of us
29:30engage in and I definitely engage in
29:32which
29:32is
29:34comparison
29:36comparing this is what I'm going through
29:38and this is so hard and you don't have
29:40to deal with this um I think so much of
29:44uh gender or relationship
29:47conflicts come from that um as well as
29:51just kind of a
29:54a
29:56well a victimhood mentality
29:58that you can walk through the world with
30:00uh that well I'm experiencing that
30:02because or this hard thing because of my
30:04age or because of the way I look or
30:06because of my um lack of Education or
30:10how much money I have or my skin color
30:12or my hair color or whatever I think
30:14there's another quote that's something
30:16like comparison is the root of all and
30:18happiness and I don't know if that's
30:20true but it feels true when you start
30:22doing tit fortat about um housework and
30:26child care with your husband uh it's
30:29never going to be equal you cannot I
30:32mean first of all there's uh subjective
30:35um differences of opinion about the
30:39value of of one job over the other well
30:41what is the value of doing laundry over
30:43taking out the trash and there's no way
30:44you could ever make it mathematically
30:46equal that you're both contributing to
30:48to the care of these children
30:51um and but it's such an
30:56easy thing for our culture to latch on
31:01to as an example of here's how men have
31:04it easier here's how women are held down
31:08and
31:10um I mean I think there was a
31:12documentary came out semi- recently
31:15called fair play about um about how
31:19women take up the the majority of child
31:22care and and home care and you know I'm
31:25a stay-at home mom and I absolutely
31:28know the feeling of like no one
31:32understands how hard it is to go through
31:34what you're going through I mean from
31:35the sleep deprivation to you know your
31:37body is not yours especially postpartum
31:40whether you had a C-section or vaginal
31:41delivery you are you know recovering
31:45from a a major physical event while
31:47having to care for this new human in the
31:49world that cannot do anything for
31:51themselves and you're giving every last
31:53ounce of your energy and and for much of
31:55it no one else can do it if you're nurse
31:58or breastfeeding um it's there's just no
32:02way to compare that to what guys are
32:04going through
32:06so I I think that's a large part of why
32:09the the tension between feminism and
32:11men's rights activists or people in
32:13different colored pills along the way
32:15purple pill black pill whatever else
32:18um I think it's just it's never going to
32:21be an Apples to
32:23Apples and you know I would rather see
32:25people
32:26who attempt to understand or hear out an
32:31alternate perspective and and because
32:33it's not like we live in this vacuum
32:35that there are no men in your life there
32:38may be no men's rights activists in your
32:40life but you have men in your life that
32:42may feel the way that men's rights
32:45activists are trying to speak up for and
32:49perhaps if you listen to their
32:50perspective you could have more sympathy
32:52or compassion for the men in your life
32:54and and they would never have to you
32:56know then go go through through that
32:58process of trying to unpack their
32:59emotions and relay it to you and
33:01potentially risk having you less
33:03attracted to them because now they're
33:05coming off whiny or
33:07whatever whatever kind of negative
33:09opinion you would have about them
33:10sharing their emotions I I just do think
33:12it's it's great
33:15to hear from all different perspective
33:18perspectives and and not be a keeping
33:21score chart but just let's try to
33:24understand each other because we all
33:25have different life experiences um not
33:28even groups but just
33:29individuals um and uh you know it has
33:34made me more um understanding of the men
33:38in my life and what they go through what
33:40they've sacrificed
33:43um that you
33:46know yeah and and I also hear I hear it
33:50and I understand it that I also think
33:52women or I I think men do need to try to
33:57understand what for instance a mom is
33:59going through a St oh Mom you know that
34:02I think that's a large part of the
34:04second way feminism and and the um
34:08frustration over you know women's role
34:11being um relegated to just being a a
34:15child caretaker um bearing children and
34:19wanting to feel more and and have
34:22respect and I mean there's a lot T back
34:25there but
34:26um but you know we just want to be seen
34:29for our struggles um without having to
34:33also be The Whistleblower about it all
34:35the time just be seeing like hey I kept
34:37the kids alive when you got home isn't
34:39that amazing you don't have to know
34:40everything I did while you were gone but
34:42isn't it amazing they're still alive um
34:45yeah we're all going through so
34:47much hardship in in different seasons
34:50not all the time but in different
34:51seasons of our lives and um I yeah when
34:55we start compar comparing
34:58it's really dangerous and and it's not
35:01good for your own health I mean
35:03ultimately it's not good for your own
35:04health so you should just try not to do
35:06that um it's also not good for others
35:08but uh it yeah it can lead to a lot of
35:13resentment and anger and I think the
35:15activist
35:17movements are um founded on that I think
35:20it's hard to be an outlier is one of the
35:22things that um it's one of the things I
35:24thought about in the in the section of
35:25the film on the family courts I think
35:28both um mainstream feminism and men's
35:32rights
35:33activism both seem to believe in a kind
35:36of
35:37like I don't know Sinister power whether
35:40that be the opposing side or or Society
35:43sort of with a capital s or or something
35:46which is generating this unfairness of
35:47the Sexes whereas I think that the
35:49reason for instance that the family
35:50court system is is set up as it is where
35:52it tends to um favor mothers um as um
35:57given primary custody is because you
36:00know vast majority of cases women are
36:01primary caregivers and children will be
36:04better off with their mothers the
36:05problem is that isn't always true right
36:08and there are often very painful cases
36:11where actually mothers are given custody
36:13when they are completely unfit for it
36:15and fathers who are very loving and
36:16attentive are denied access to their
36:18children and like you know the courts
36:20get it wrong and uh I I you know I don't
36:23doubt the Court's going wrong sometimes
36:26but I I I guess
36:29um I guess I would say as someone who um
36:32isn't really invested in equality you
36:33know I I don't actually think it should
36:35be 50-50 in the courts I think it's I
36:38mean I don't I think I also think
36:39divorce in general is bad and that
36:40children leave both their mothers and
36:41their fathers in their lives but you
36:42know if you're having if you have to
36:44abortion primary custody of one parent
36:46or the other I think it will end up
36:47being the mother more often um
36:53and I think the painful the kind of
36:56tragic out outome of having these gender
37:01roles doesn't just apply to gender apply
37:03to other things as well of course but
37:04having these gender roles that have kind
37:06of
37:07um have evolved over the years in this
37:11fashion for biological reasons and also
37:13for sort of functional social
37:15reasons the downside of that is
37:18sometimes sometimes that they're
37:20completely wrong sometimes people will
37:21be outliers will be an will be anomalous
37:24will be um gender non-conforming and one
37:27fashion or another and that's when they
37:29really
37:30hate the gender roles right and we we're
37:33obviously very aware of the feminist
37:35examples of this you know the woman who
37:36doesn't want to be a mother who wants to
37:38be the career girl who wants to you know
37:40who really really Rebels against um her
37:43gender role her traditional gender role
37:45and of course second way feminism
37:47valorizes those women and sees them as
37:49heroic we don't tend to see well in some
37:52situations we see men rebelling against
37:54their gender roles as positive but we're
37:56less likely to more more likely to see
37:58them as being to get the ick as we've
38:00discussed um um but I guess my yeah I
38:05mean I guess my conclusion is and and
38:06it's a conservative one is that this is
38:09a tragic reality of having Society you
38:13know like Society has to a portion roles
38:18and when it comes to mothers and fathers
38:20you know I can't really think of them
38:23more mothers and fathers different we
38:25need to have ideals of both and that
38:27will
38:28sometimes mean that the ideals don't M
38:30map onto reality to everyone does that
38:31make
38:35sense yeah
38:39um I actually love and I I disagree with
38:42someone really
38:45respect it's so nice no I I I don't um I
38:48also don't feel the need to like
38:49convince you of any other way um I do
38:53support 5050 custody and divorce for the
38:56parents um
38:59I I also you
39:02know on principle I love the idea of
39:05just you marry the person for life and
39:07you stay with them and you stick through
39:08it um but I definitely
39:13see scenarios that really divorce is the
39:16healthiest thing for everyone including
39:18the children yeah I think there are a
39:19small number of cases with that's true
39:21yeah I agree maybe that was all I
39:22disagreed with that on you um yeah do
39:26you so I mean what because what one
39:29feminist View and it's also a view that
39:31is shared by some men's right activist
39:33is that gender roles per se are bad
39:36right that there's it's wrong to treat
39:39it's wrong that we have disperate
39:40outcomes between the sexes in any given
39:42field it's it's we should be seeing
39:44absolute equality everywhere you know
39:46there are the differences between the
39:48Sexes are so trivial that we shouldn't
39:50be seeing we shouldn't have gender roles
39:52people should just kind of choose their
39:54own adventure um I don't I don't agree
39:59with that I also don't agree with it I
40:00think
40:02um you know the political correctness
40:05that we're very well aware of
40:08um limits a lot of conversations
40:12about
40:14um so for
40:17instance after I had my first son who's
40:19now three I have a second Son who's
40:21seven months old um you know it really
40:26gave me a way a new way to look at how
40:31as a pregnant woman and then a mother to
40:34young children I cannot
40:37perform in work like I could before I
40:40had children or even before I was
40:42pregnant um and that's you know a way
40:46that uh you know it's not politically
40:48correct to say that and why is it not
40:49politically correct because um we as a
40:53society or really the feminist ideology
40:56is concerned that if you say that and
40:58people agree then you could be
41:00discriminated against in the job that um
41:03that employers could worry that oh maybe
41:05you'll get pregnant or you're this age
41:07maybe you'll want to have children soon
41:08or um and it's a tricky thing I even
41:11hesitate talking about it because I
41:12don't want to um I also don't want to
41:15put out that assumption that you
41:17couldn't hire a woman who has young
41:19children or who make it pregnant soon um
41:23but you know before I had children I I
41:26what I had two employees and you know
41:30very minimal uh budget to be able to
41:34afford them and if one of them went on
41:38maternity leave and I have to pay for
41:41them to be gone for a certain amount of
41:43time and also replace them with a new
41:44person my business could just not
41:46operate like that you know luckily i'
41:48never been faced with that um dilemma
41:51but but it is a real concern and uh but
41:56yeah we we worry that women would be
41:59less likely to be hired or wouldn't be
42:00taken as seriously if if they have young
42:02children at home men are all I mean
42:04husbands and fathers are definitely
42:06impacted as well from the sleep
42:07deprivation of having young children at
42:09home but and different things um but it
42:12really uh you know part of why I see
42:16that we have developed these gender
42:19roles it's been out of efficiency and
42:23optimizing results based on what has to
42:26be done you know the child has to be
42:29attended to every waking minute and when
42:32they're sleeping as well um but we also
42:35have to earn an income so it's it's a
42:38divide and conquer mentality of okay if
42:40you focus on your job and I focus on the
42:42children we can actually accomplish more
42:44than if we're both you know exhausted to
42:47the Bone and trying to work full-time at
42:51the same time but really giving not even
42:52half of our energy but less than that to
42:54the job and um
42:58you know but of course there's
42:59consequences my you know I'm a
43:00stay-at-home mom my um value when I
43:03choose to enter the workforce again will
43:05be reduced because I haven't been
43:06working for x amount of years um my
43:09resume does not look as padded as the
43:11the person who didn't leave the
43:12workforce so there's definitely a
43:14trade-off
43:16um but I I do think when so I have a
43:20wonderful network of moms where I live
43:22um I'm talking like hundreds um we have
43:26a great
43:27um Community a mom club that you sign up
43:31for and and then you have all these
43:32events and get to know them and WhatsApp
43:35Chad and slack chat and all this so we
43:37get to know each other really well but
43:38what I love um seeing privately and not
43:42talk to them about it but what I love
43:43seeing is how you know these women who
43:45are very self-professed feminists on
43:48social media and or just in their Walk
43:50of Life will also admit in these private
43:52chats that I don't want to go back to
43:54work I don't want to miss my child's um
43:57you know starting to babble or getting
44:00like any kind of stage of development I
44:03mean especially for first time paent I
44:05think every Milestone is so exciting
44:07seeing I mean it's like really seeing
44:09the magic of Life unfold in front of
44:11your eyes and to miss out on that I mean
44:14I think moms really feel feel the pain
44:17of missing out on those moments um I
44:21think men do too but maybe maybe there
44:25is a difference um I think biologically
44:29so you know a lot of my feminist mom
44:32friends did not want to go back to work
44:35when their baby was three four months
44:37old even six months old and they were
44:39really struggling with that but they
44:40were struggling with that because of the
44:43expectation from society that you should
44:47go back to work you were always career-
44:48driven before you had your child just
44:50because you had a child you shouldn't
44:51ignore your previous identity you should
44:54still be an independent um woman who has
44:57your own interests and hobbies outside
44:58of your children and I think yes if if
45:01that makes you happy happy do it you
45:03know if these Hobbies or these self-care
45:06times where your job makes you happy and
45:08makes you a better mom do it but don't
45:11feel like you have to do it because
45:13feminism or Society is telling you that
45:16this is what strong independent women do
45:17it's you go back to work when your child
45:19is four months
45:21um you know they feel guilty because of
45:25the culture we're in now not because um
45:29you know their kid is telling them to go
45:31to work you or their even their husband
45:33is telling them to go to work most
45:35likely that's not the case the episode
45:37is not over there is another maybe 30
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45:52all that important stuff the extended
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46:39[Music]

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