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Respected Air Force Colonel Linked to Two Murders | Full Interrogation of Russell Williams (Subs) — Transcript

by The Interrogator Files · 18,329 words · 2,983 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00Colonel Russell Williams, once a
0:02decorated commander in the Royal
0:03Canadian Air Force, was brought in for
0:05questioning in early 2010 after a string
0:08of home invasions, sexual assaults, and
0:10two murders. 27-year-old Jessica Lloyd
0:13and 37-year-old Corporal Marie France
0:16Camo. Both brutally killed under
0:18circumstances that had shaken their
0:20communities in Ontario. At first,
0:22investigators only had tire tracks and a
0:24peculiar bootprint to go on. But when
0:26those prints were matched to Williams
0:28vehicle and militaryissued boots, he was
0:31quietly summoned for an interview with
0:32Detective Jim Smith of the Ontario
0:34Provincial Police. Williams arrived in
0:37plain clothes, cooperative and composed,
0:40an image far from the one investigators
0:42suspected was hiding beneath the
0:43surface. What began as a calm, routine
0:46questioning quickly shifted. This is the
0:48interrogation of Colonel Russell
0:50Williams. All right, you just have a
0:53seat here, Russell.
0:56I was speaking with whatever night that
0:58was was Russ as well. Oh, yeah. They
1:00took took every number I had. Yeah. Now,
1:03they were doing some pretty thorough
1:04interviews that night. So, yeah,
1:06absolutely. I was glad to see it. I'm
1:08just going to move your gloves here.
1:09That's a little microphone just to make
1:10sure there's nice and clear. Um, as you
1:12can see here, everything in this room is
1:13videotaped and audio taped. Check.
1:16Uh, you ever been interviewed by the
1:18police in a in a room like this before?
1:20I have never been interviewed like this.
1:21Oh, no. Okay. No. Let's get this out of
1:24here.
1:28I guess closest
1:30to interview by NIS for top secret
1:33clearance. Oh, yeah. All right. Well,
1:36again, Russell, I appreciate you coming
1:37in an investigation like this. I mean,
1:39I'm sure you can appreciate it's been
1:40big news uh especially down uh
1:42Belleville Way. Um and you know,
1:45obviously our approach to cases like
1:47this is that uh uh we don't give up on
1:49somebody being alive until we get
1:52evidence that they're not. So, um,
1:54because of that, we're treating, uh,
1:55Jessica's case as an e situation,
1:58obviously. Um, so we're we're fast
2:01forwarding things that we might normally
2:02take our time with. Um, and that's why
2:05we're here on a Sunday afternoon. So,
2:07uh, again, I appreciate it. Um, we're
2:10going to do a pretty thorough interview
2:12today, okay? Um, and the reason for that
2:14is because, uh, the last thing we want
2:16is to be calling people back again and
2:18again and again, okay? Um, so what we're
2:20going to do is we're going to go over a
2:21number of things and uh I'm going to
2:22explain what all those are to you. Okay.
2:25Um,
2:26I'm a big coffee guy. I don't know if
2:28you're a a coffee guy or I didn't want
2:30to drink in front of you. So, no, I
2:31appreciate that. All right. Go ahead. I
2:33could uh definitely Are they black?
2:35Yeah, they're just black with uh with
2:37sugar.
2:39Um, probably a little bit. Sorry. What?
2:43Sorry. Gum. Just piece of gum. Well,
2:45there's napkins there if you want to
2:46toss it over. I appreciate that.
2:49All right. And again, um, like I said,
2:50this interview is going to be very
2:51thorough. Um, but again, uh, I have a
2:54simple rule when I talk to people. It's,
2:56uh, I'm sure you're the same way. I
2:58treat everybody with respect. I don't
2:59want to ask you to do the same for me.
3:01Um, so what we're going to do is we're
3:02going to start off by, uh, going
3:04through, um, what your rights are, okay?
3:06Just like everybody else. Okay? Um, have
3:09you ever been read your rights before?
3:11I'm sure you've seen on TV a whole bunch
3:12of times, but that's usually the
3:13American version. So, I'll go over with
3:15you briefly, okay? Um, basically in
3:17Canada, uh, as you know, I'm sure, is,
3:19uh, we all have, uh, our rights
3:21guaranteed under the Charter of Rights
3:22and Freedoms. Okay. Now, uh, Russell,
3:25just to avoid any confusion, because
3:26people do get confused when they're
3:28talked to by the police, is that, uh,
3:30um, you're obviously not under arrest
3:31here today. Okay. Anytime you feel, uh,
3:34you want to leave here, you feel free to
3:35do so. The door is not locked. Theresa
3:36will walk you down to the lobby anytime
3:38you want. Okay?
3:39Um, if there's anything that comes up in
3:42our interview today, Russell, that uh
3:43that you feel you want to talk uh to a
3:46lawyer about, um, you just, uh, you just
3:48let me know. Okay. And the reason for
3:50that is I want to explain to you exactly
3:52what's going on here. Okay. Um,
3:55Jessica uh Lloyd is um is one of four
3:59cases that we're currently
4:01investigating. Okay. Um, and essentially
4:03what's happened is over the past uh
4:06about four or five months Yeah.
4:08Um, there have been four occurrences,
4:12like I said, that we're looking into.
4:13Uh, two of those occurrences occurred in
4:15September of 2009. Um, and very briefly,
4:18they were up in the the Tweet area. Uh,
4:21they involved somebody entering two
4:23different women's houses, um, in the
4:25evening hours and, uh, committing sexual
4:28acts. Okay. Uh, in November of 2009,
4:33young lady by the name of Marie France
4:36Ko.
4:37Yeah. Yep. Was found uh murdered in her
4:40home in Brighton. Yeah. And u we believe
4:42that there was a sexual component to
4:44that crime as well. And um then most
4:47recently we have Jessica Lloyd's
4:49disappearance. Okay. So essentially when
4:51you're looking at those kind of crimes,
4:53we're looking at a number of different
4:54uh potential criminal charges. All
4:56right. Um, we're looking at issues uh
4:58all the way from the most serious one,
5:00which is first-degree murder, uh,
5:02kidnapping, uh, sexual assault, um,
5:04break and enter with intent to commit
5:06sexual assault, um, forcible
5:08confinement. Okay? And, uh, so what I
5:11want to make sure you understand, and
5:12this is what we've been doing with
5:13everybody we've been talking to, is that
5:15clearly when we find out who's
5:16responsible for one or all of those
5:18crimes, uh, they could be charged with
5:20one or all of those offenses. Okay?
5:22Whether it's you or whether it's anybody
5:23else, right? Absolutely. And that's why
5:25it's important that we uh make sure that
5:27people understand what they have to do
5:28and what they don't have to do when
5:29they're talking to us. Okay. So, as I
5:32said before, any point today uh you feel
5:34the need you want to speak to a lawyer,
5:36uh you let me know and uh we can take
5:37you to a room where you can do that in
5:39private. Okay. Okay. Um do you have your
5:42own lawyer?
5:43I have a realy lawyer, but I don't have
5:46a lawyer. All right. Um, if at any point
5:48you want to make that call and you don't
5:50know who to call, uh, we have a phone
5:52list of lawyers that are available to
5:54give you advice free of charge right
5:55over the phone. Okay. So, again, if at
5:57any point today you want to take
5:58advantage of that, you just let me know.
6:00Sure. Um, is there any reason you want
6:01to call a lawyer now? No. Okay. Um,
6:04couple other fairly simple and
6:06straightforward uh, things that you
6:08probably understand, but again, we go
6:09over them to make sure everybody's clear
6:11is that uh, you don't have to speak to
6:13me today. Okay. And the reason for that
6:15is because the law considers me to be
6:17what we refer to as a person in
6:19authority. Okay? Probably similar to
6:20what you may be considered to be on the
6:22base. Um, and because of that, I can be
6:25compelled to appear before any judge in
6:26the country basically to account for
6:28what takes place here today between you
6:30and I. Okay? And that's the reason why
6:32everything's recorded because there
6:34can't be any more accurate record than
6:36that, right? So, no. Understood. Um, and
6:38the other thing I want to make sure you
6:40understand is that uh, you know, you
6:41mentioned a second ago about Miss Como.
6:44um being one of your work associates. Um
6:47so I don't know what's happened since
6:49November um on the military side of
6:51things. Um but what we want to make
6:53people clear on is that uh if you have
6:56been spoken to by any person in
6:57authority or any police officer about
6:58any of those cases um I don't want what
7:01they may have said to you to uh um make
7:04you feel influenced or compelled to say
7:06anything to me today. Okay? Whatever you
7:08might have felt influenced or compelled
7:09to say to them earlier, you don't have
7:10to repeat it to me and you don't have to
7:12say anything further. Okay? But
7:13obviously what you do say you know for
7:15the third time is being recorded right.
7:17So um understood these first two attacks
7:20happened uh not that far from my place
7:22in two well the second one did. Yeah. We
7:24didn't even know the first one had
7:26happened but uh I understand that was
7:28reasonably close as well but the second
7:29one was uh was very close. Yeah. So
7:32certainly at the time your PP did a uh
7:35a door to door within uh within a couple
7:38of days probably the same night. So I
7:40spoke with a couple guys then. Okay. Um,
7:42yeah, and I'm I'm aware of that from
7:44looking at the different cases and
7:46essentially, uh, Russell, in a nutshell,
7:48that's what we wanted to, uh, to talk to
7:49you about. Okay. U, those four cases are
7:52of concern to us. And, um, you know,
7:55you've kind of almost hit the nail on
7:57the head about some of our issues that
7:59kind of, uh, make us want to talk to to
8:01Russell Williams. Okay. Um, because
8:03essentially, uh, there was a a a
8:06connection um, between you and uh, and
8:09all four of those cases. Would you
8:12agree? Geographically, I guess I drive
8:15past. Yes. I would have to say there was
8:17a a connection. Yeah. Yeah. And that's
8:19that's why um I'll be quite frank with
8:22you. That's why uh things kind of um uh
8:25evolved when uh the officers talked to
8:27you on Thursday night. Okay. Uh we kind
8:29of went from there because uh when I
8:31think you discussed with them the fact
8:32that you were a
8:33uh a colonel at the base, I was in
8:37uniform at the time. So yeah. So pretty
8:39obvious, right? Um, so essentially, uh,
8:41then the connection with Miss Ko, um,
8:44was made, um, and I believe you're, uh,
8:48a door or two down from one of those
8:51two, uh, incidents, uh, in three doors
8:54down. Yeah. Yeah. Very close.
8:55Absolutely. Yeah. Exactly. So, uh, those
8:58are some of the issues we wanted to
8:59discuss with you. Okay. Um, so, just
9:02getting back to, uh, these four
9:04incidents that we're talking about. Um
9:06maybe you could just give me a little
9:07bit of history as to uh your arrival in
9:11the uh in the base in Trenton. When did
9:13you start working there?
9:16Friday on the day I was
9:26um Friday on the day I was at home most
9:29of the time. Most of the day I had a
9:30sort of a stomach flu. Okay. In Ottawa
9:33or Tweed? In Tweed. In Tweed. Okay.
9:35Yeah. Uh, so we backtrack then
9:41so all day Friday you're at home. Yeah.
9:44And then what time do you leave to go to
9:47the base to sleep there on the Friday
9:48night?
9:53Um, not sure. Probably just, you know,
9:56went in for just before bed.
9:58Uh, they're probably left tweeted
10:00between eight and nine or so. Okay. Um,
10:03and you get to the base and spend the
10:05evening there and get up for the 5:30.
10:07Yeah. Okay. That's right. So, we
10:09backtrack from there. Um, you when did
10:12you arrive at your home uh at the
10:15cottage? Can I don't want to get
10:17confused between your home in Ottawa and
10:18the home. So, no, I had been in Tweed
10:21all week. Yeah. Uh, the week prior now.
10:27Um, yeah, I think that's the case.
10:31was in tweet all week, flu Saturday,
10:34headed to Ottawa Saturday night. Okay.
10:37So, um if you didn't have the stomach
10:40flu on the Friday, what was your
10:42schedule that day? Really? Okay.
10:47Um what would have been my schedule?
10:49Just a standard schedule in the office.
10:51Okay. So,
10:53uh office brief in the morning, couple
10:55of
10:57uh a couple of meetings. I can't
10:59remember what the specifics were going
11:01to be. Okay. So, um, Thursday night you
11:05slept at Tweed or you Yep. All right.
11:08And what did you Thursday during the
11:10day? Thursday during the day I was at
11:12the base
11:14again.
11:17Um, I think it was a fairly standard
11:19day. I can't recall exactly, but
11:23uh, yeah. No, I was not flying, so I was
11:26at the base. So I would have gone in
11:27early in the morning back in the evening
11:29again. Okay. Do you remember what time
11:30you left the base at night?
11:39I don't remember anything peculiar. So I
11:41would say
11:44uh I don't know probably 7 to nine
11:46somewhere in that range. Okay. That's
11:48when you you left left the base. Yeah.
11:50And what it was that's a 45minute
11:52transit. So 45 minutes home. Okay. Okay.
11:54Now, I'm not not going to walk you
11:56through November, but I'm going to take
11:57you to a date that's probably pretty
11:58fresh in your mind. Uh uh the day that
12:01uh that Marie Fron's com um do you
12:04remember how you found out? I do. Yeah,
12:05I was sent an email. Um
12:10well, as soon as the uh the off staff in
12:12the base learned that you told me, okay,
12:16so I got an email. I can't remember if
12:18it was late at night, early in the
12:19morning. It was a certain I saw it uh I
12:22want to say first thing in the morning
12:23because I had just come back from
12:24Ottawa. I was in Ottawa for um
12:30um a set of meetings on one of the days.
12:33I can't remember what what day of the
12:34week we're talking about, but uh
12:37yeah. No, I mean obviously one of your
12:40people gets killed, it gets your
12:41attention. So absolutely. I very much
12:43remember that coming in. And how did you
12:46know Marie France Coleman? I'd only met
12:48her once.
12:50Um, she was on a crew uh I was on just
12:53after I got to the base. Okay. So, uh I
12:56can't even remember. I think it was a
12:58one-day trip. Uh I did a number of trips
13:00uh in Canada transporting
13:03um our um you know troops sort of first
13:06leg out of Edmonton. Uh you know, we
13:10tend to hopcotch them across uh until
13:12they get into theater. So anyway, I I
13:15can't remember which trip it was, but uh
13:16we did a number of them out to Edmonton
13:18just to to pick up the troops, bring
13:19them to Trenton, and then uh put a fresh
13:22crew on, and because we'd fly out and
13:24back in the same day, so pushing the
13:26edge of that, and uh fresh crew on,
13:28they'd continue on after a couple hour
13:30delay. Okay. Do you know uh roughly when
13:33that happened? That we were on the same
13:35crew. The time you met or the one time
13:37there? Yeah, it was soon after I got to
13:39the base. So, uh, I I don't remember
13:42exactly, but I would say in the first
13:44couple of months, so August, September.
13:47Okay. Um, now you got that email
13:50notifying you that something had
13:51happened. Uh, do you have uh any kind of
13:53a a clear recollection as to how your
13:56schedule was going that week?
14:00Well, I can't remember what again what
14:03day that uh the message came in. Just a
14:05second.
14:13Um, no. I can't remember what day of the
14:16week, but I
14:17um I just think there was a whole bunch
14:20of activity spun up as a result,
14:25obviously. I can't remember the day of
14:27the week.
14:33Um, I'm just trying to think through the
14:35news reports I read.
14:40I'm sorry, I can't remember what day
14:41that was, but
14:46uh what I what we learned after the fact
14:48was that the um the MPs had learned
14:55uh of her death, I think quite a bit
14:58after her body had been discovered.
15:00Okay.
15:04So, I think what happened? I'm
15:13sorry. Okay. So, I think if I remember
15:16correctly, the MPs
15:18learned late that evening. Can't
15:21remember when obviously her body was
15:23discovered. It was probably in the news
15:24reports, but uh so they learned and then
15:27they passed it to offs that immed so
15:29they immediately passed it to me. Okay.
15:31The MPs work for the wing operations
15:33officer. So they go, you know, through
15:34their chain of command and then as soon
15:36as the uh the duty watch officer had
15:38that information, she advised me. Okay.
15:41Um so again, that that particular week
15:44some others. Right. Right. I'm sure it
15:46spread like wildfire. Um so that
15:49particular week, uh do you have any
15:52recollection? Well, for instance, when
15:54you got the email, uh yeah. Do you
15:56remember where you were? I was at home
15:58in Tweet. Okay. Yeah. Um, do you
16:00remember if that was a week that you
16:02were um reasonably stable in Treton or
16:05had you flown? No, I had been in Ottawa.
16:07I had been in Ottawa earlier in the week
16:10uh for some meetings over in uh in
16:12Gatnau for one of the um actually for
16:15the C7 acquisition. I was project
16:18director when I was here in for that. So
16:20just some followup stuff for that. Okay.
16:22So, I had been here
16:27um at some point in that week. Again, I
16:30can't remember how the days all fell
16:32together, but
16:34um I seem to remember that I got this
16:37word shortly after having come back from
16:40Ottawa. Seems to me it was the same
16:42week. So, if we were to uh to, you know,
16:45do a similar uh investigation in your
16:48background, is there is there anything
16:49you can think of that anybody may have
16:51misinterpreted or anything uh in your
16:53history that somebody might say Russell
16:56Williams uh absolutely did this? No.
16:59Okay. Be very boring. What's that? It'll
17:02be very boring. All right. Because
17:05essentially, that's what I'm looking at
17:06is it uh
17:09um you seem like a very intelligent
17:11person. I think you can see how um a
17:14surprise like that would um certainly
17:17some alarm bells in our investigation,
17:19right? Okay.
17:20Um so the next thing we need to cover
17:23off is uh well, I'll just ask you this
17:26straight out. Uh given the types of
17:27crimes we're investigating, uh do you
17:29get much chance to uh to watch
17:32television shows, CSI, things like that?
17:34I do watch uh I prefer Law and Order,
17:37but I do watch CSI occasionally. Yes.
17:39Okay. So you have an idea of obviously
17:41the forensic capabilities, things like
17:42that are out there.
17:44What would you be willing to give me
17:46today to help me um move past you in
17:49this investigation?
17:52What uh what do you need? Well, um would
17:56you be willing to supply things like
17:58fingerprints, blood samples, things like
17:59that? Yeah. Okay. Um footwear
18:02impressions. Yeah. Okay. All right. Um I
18:05think that's what we're going to we're
18:06going to ask you to do. All right. Now,
18:08we have a process we have to go through
18:10to do that. Okay. Um, and for the blood
18:12sample, uh, I don't take the blood
18:14sample. We have specially trained
18:15officers that are trained to do that.
18:16Okay. Uh, I'm going to step out and make
18:18sure they're still available.
18:21Can I assume you're going to be
18:22discreet? It's possible. Yeah. Cuz
18:27uh, you know, this would have a very
18:30significant impact on the base if they
18:32thought you thought I did this. Well,
18:35uh, bottom line, Russell, that's one of
18:36the reasons we're here on a Sunday
18:38afternoon. Um, uh, the, uh, the military
18:41certainly be of great assistance for to
18:43us, especially in relation to Miss
18:44Cuomo's investigation. So, uh, that's
18:47certainly one of the things that went
18:48into our decision to to give you a call
18:49at home today and see if we could deal
18:50with this today. Okay. So, okay.
18:58Um, because it's tough to undo the rumor
19:00mill once it gets started.
19:07I appreciate that. Okay.
19:09Now that you've had some time to I I
19:11know we've been throwing a lot of things
19:12at you here, but now you've had some
19:13time to to think about things. Um is
19:16there anything uh that you're concerned
19:18about uh that buckle swab matching in
19:22any of those four residences? Um is
19:25there I guess let me explain you what
19:28I'm getting done here, Russell. Okay.
19:29Um, this is a significant investigation
19:32as you can as you can well imagine. Um,
19:35that uh that DNA is going to be uh
19:38significant in our investigation both uh
19:41you know quite possibly to help you
19:42quite possibly to help us. Understood. I
19:44don't know yet. I don't know what the
19:45result is yet.
19:47Um, and I'll go back to the example I
19:49gave you because it's a very similar uh
19:51issue I think. Um, and you talked about
19:54the idea of discretion here. Okay. uh
19:57you talked about the idea that uh um you
20:01know I think hopefully you appreciate
20:03the fact of how we approached you here.
20:05Y um and essentially uh we have no
20:08issues with that. Okay. Um we we talked
20:11recently about you know the whole idea
20:13of any unusual sex acts in your history.
20:15Um but another thing can often happen in
20:18cases like this is that people um become
20:21concerned about uh um things like
20:24extrammarital affairs. uh indiscretions
20:27along those lines.
20:30Um, is there any contact that you may
20:33have had with any of those four women um
20:36that you may not want your wife to be
20:39aware of? Anything like that that we
20:41should know about to try and uh explain
20:44why if if your DNA is found, it would
20:47help us understand why it may be there.
20:48Absolutely not. Okay.
20:51Can you think of any reason
20:54um why we would find your DNA in any of
20:56those residences? Let's let's focus on
20:58well for instance uh house I believe let
21:00me just check the name there. Make sure
21:01I've got the right address. Talking
21:03about the house that was just uh a
21:05couple of doors down from you there in
21:06uh in Tweed. Couple of doors down was
21:10Lori. I don't know her last name. I
21:11don't know. Masakotti. I don't even know
21:13what her last name is. But,
21:16uh, there's a the woman down the road,
21:20three doors down, her name is Lori. I
21:22don't know her last name. All right. Let
21:23me just make sure we're on the same page
21:29here. Okay. Uh, my understanding is she
21:32lived at 76 Coy Cove. Yeah. So, she
21:34would be the one the second one uh the
21:37second incident on your on your road
21:39there. A couple of doors down. Ever been
21:40in her house?
21:44No, we met her once I think the first
21:49summer. Um, we were there before. Okay.
21:53And that's what I'm getting at. I I
21:56again, this is a credibility issue,
21:57right? Because I don't want to come and
21:59see you two weeks from now and say, you
22:02know, Russ Yeah. our CSI people in that
22:04house. And, uh, are you familiar with
22:06how C uh, DNA works?
22:10I think broadly yes. Um, one of the
22:13challenges we have in 2010 with DNA is
22:16it's become so um precise that um I
22:21guess the best way to explain it is I
22:22can think back 15 years ago when I
22:24started in uh in violent crime
22:27investigation. Yeah. Um for us to get a
22:29DNA match, the sample we had to find was
22:33um you know probably would have filled
22:35half of one of these cups. you know,
22:37because they destroy so much of the the
22:38sample in in the testing. Um,
22:42essentially DNA has become more and more
22:44precise to the point where when you and
22:47I walked in this room earlier today, uh,
22:49we could have sat down, talked for 30
22:51seconds, walked out, CSI officer could
22:54have come in 3 4 days from now. Yeah.
22:57Did some swabs here and he would have
22:59found your DNA and my DNA and probably a
23:01lot of other people's DNA. Sure. Um, a
23:04little bit gross to think about, but
23:05essentially, uh, you know, as we talk,
23:08um, we, you know, a little bit of
23:10aspirate comes out of our mouth that,
23:12uh, that contains our DNA. Our blood or
23:14our skin cells contain our DNA. And
23:16that's what I'm getting at. If you were
23:17ever in Lor's residence, quite possibly,
23:20quite innocently, your DNA could be uh,
23:23in that residence. Has there ever been a
23:24time you've been in there? No. Okay.
23:27Um, what about the other lady down the
23:30road on uh I hadn't even heard that
23:32name, so no, I don't I don't actually
23:34know who that was. Okay. Have you ever v
23:37visited uh Marie France Como at her
23:40residence? No. Okay. All right. Um, so
23:43you're quite positive there would be no
23:44reason why your DNA would be any of
23:45those three locations. Okay. Um, did you
23:49know Jessica Lloyd even in passing for
23:51any reason? No, I didn't hear hear name
23:54till it was on the news. Okay. And the
23:57reason I'm asking that uh is because um
24:01I know you were asked that question on
24:02Thursday night and sometimes what we
24:05find and again this is one of those
24:07situations that can sometimes cause us
24:08to get into a lengthy investigation is
24:10somebody that maybe doesn't deserve it.
24:12U but what what can happen sometimes is
24:14they you know somebody gets stopped by
24:16the police like you did and they uh they
24:19get asked that question and people when
24:21they're stopped by the police they can
24:23be nervous. Okay. Um, so they blurt out
24:25an answer and then they start driving
24:27away and they go, "Well, why' I do
24:28that?" Because the problem is is that
24:30once they uh get asked again, then they
24:33feel compelled to maintain that
24:36answer for fear that if they change
24:38their answer, somebody could find it.
24:40You understand what I'm saying? I do.
24:41Okay. So, I want to make sure that's not
24:42happening here. I don't care what you
24:43said to the officers on Thursday night
24:45and last week. Um, if there's any uh
24:48communication or contact between you and
24:50Jessica Lloyd, you've seen her picture,
24:52right? Around town. Yeah.
24:54ever seen her before? I don't. No, I
24:57would say I have not. Okay. All right.
25:00All right. And you mentioned something
25:01about uh doing some renovations at your
25:04uh at your property in Tweed there. Um I
25:07think you said something earlier about
25:08tearing up carpet. Correct me if I'm
25:09wrong, but Oh, yeah. Okay. When did all
25:11that happen? In 2004 or five. Okay. Any
25:15recent uh renovations? No. Okay. All
25:18right.
25:26Just want to make sure I'm covering all
25:27the bases here.
25:32Um, okay. What kind of tires do you have
25:35on your Pathfinder?
25:39I think um I think
25:41they're Toyo. Okay. Do you know the
25:44brand name or sorry the
25:47um I don't sorry the make is Toyo. Yeah.
25:51I don't know the model. Okay.
25:56See read this off to you. See if it
25:58rings a
26:04bell. Ever heard of uh does Toyo Open
26:08Country HTS?
26:10Make any sense? Okay. When did you have
26:12those tires put on your Pathfinder?
26:16Well, it's the second version we've had
26:17of them. So,
26:21uh I think it might have been this past
26:23fall. They replaced other ones we'd had
26:26on the same
26:28Okay. Well, Toyo, I can't say that they
26:30were the same exactly the same model,
26:32but uh our dealership here in Ottawa
26:34says they're very popular for the
26:36Pathfinders. Okay. And they were good.
26:38They lasted a long time. All right.
26:42Um, I've had some I think you were
26:45talking about the the whole idea of the
26:47MPs uh helping us with our
26:49investigation, stuff like this. You have
26:51the same system as we do at our
26:52headquarters with the swipe cards. Um,
26:55one of the things uh one of our
26:57investigators did is they made a call
26:58while I was talking to you there. Um,
27:00because we were trying to work through
27:01that week of the uh the 23rd of
27:03November. Okay. 23rd being the Monday,
27:06uh, 24th being the Tuesday. Okay. Um
27:09what what they've what they've told us
27:11is that um and I want to make sure I get
27:13this right is that uh on the 23rd uh
27:18your swipe card was being used at the
27:19base. Okay. Okay. Uh on Tuesday 24th
27:23there was no use of your swipe card.
27:25Okay. And then on the uh the following
27:27days uh the Wednesday, Thursday, Friday
27:29um there was what appeared to be average
27:31activity of your swipe card in the base.
27:33Does that make sense to you? It does.
27:35That that says that I was in Ottawa on
27:37the Tuesday. Okay. Do you remember where
27:40in Ottawa you were? Yeah, I was in
27:42Gatnau with uh as I said meeting about
27:45the uh C17. Okay. Um now again I want to
27:50be fair to you here. We're going back
27:51two months. Um are you sure that would
27:53have been the uh the day you were in
27:55Ottawa?
27:57Well, only because I wasn't at the base.
28:00Okay. So, I I can't remember honestly
28:03that that's the day I had the meeting in
28:04Ottawa, but uh if I wasn't at the base,
28:07it was because I was here. Okay. Now, if
28:10that is the day you had the meeting in
28:11Ottawa, um do you remember being at the
28:13base on the Monday uh the 23rd and
28:16swiping your card in and out, do you
28:18remember what you would have done that
28:19evening to to to get to Ottawa for that
28:21meeting? Like, would it be uh
28:25I drove to Ottawa in the morning of the
28:27day of my meeting. So if it was the
28:28Tuesday then I would have left uh Tweed.
28:31It was a very foggy morning. Okay. Uh
28:34that morning and I drove in that
28:36morning. Okay. So I would not have been
28:38at the base uh the day I was in because
28:42the meeting started at 8:30 or
28:44something. Okay. So you leave the base,
28:46you would have went home to to your
28:48residence in Tweed. Yep. And then you
28:51left Tweed in the morning and drove up
28:52to your meeting in Ottawa. Yeah. Okay.
28:54Um, you leave the the meeting in Ottawa
28:57is a daytime meeting, evening meeting or
28:59do you remember? Uh, yeah, it was a a
29:01daytime meeting. Finished, I don't know,
29:03mid-afternoon or so. Okay. We had lunch
29:05and then uh finished. I think uh my wife
29:08and I had dinner cuz she was here for
29:10work and then I headed back. Okay. Um,
29:13well, that's these are the kind of
29:15things I'm trying to draw out here.
29:16That's helpful to us. Um, do you
29:18remember where you had dinner?
29:21Uh well, I don't remember exactly the
29:23restaurant, but it was in Westboro
29:24because that's where our house was being
29:25built at the time. So, we had dinner,
29:28you know, in a restaurant that we would
29:31expect to be able to frequent uh once
29:32the house is finished. Okay. Remember
29:35how you paid? Uh, one of us would have
29:38paid by Mastercard. Yeah. Okay. Are you
29:40sure about that or Pretty sure that's
29:43normally how we uh Okay. We pay for
29:45meals. All right. Can't remember if it
29:47was me or my wife that paid, but one of
29:48us. Okay. And do you remember which
29:50restaurant it was again? No. Okay. All
29:52right. And you see where I'm getting at,
29:54right? I mean, that can be very helpful
29:56for us because we can track uh that
29:59issue, right? We can we can put somebody
30:01paying for a meal at a at a location. I
30:03was meeting with uh you know, 15 people
30:06or so that day. So, Okay. What time did
30:08the meeting end?
30:12I would say between 3 and 4. Okay. And
30:15um are you sure that that's the same day
30:17you went out with your wife?
30:22Wow. I think so. Yeah, cuz she was here
30:25and
30:27uh I I think that was the day we went to
30:30this restaurant in Westboro. Yes. Okay.
30:33Um you finished dinner and do you
30:36remember what you did that evening? I
30:38would have driven back to Tweed. Okay.
30:40And you would have now again I I know
30:43we're talking two months ago here, but
30:45do you remember specifically having
30:46dinner and then driving back to Tweed or
30:48uh do you remember are you just guessing
30:51here?
30:54No, I'm not really guessing. I mean, I I
30:56believe that this night at this
30:58restaurant was following the meetings in
31:00Ottawa
31:02and I, you know, kissed my wife goodbye
31:04and headed back to Tweet to go to work
31:07the next day. Okay.
31:09Um, all right. The uh the tires that you
31:14have on your truck, right? The reason I
31:15asked you about that is there is there
31:18any time I mean you recall uh where you
31:21were stopped um by the officers there?
31:24Yes. Okay. Did they explain to you what
31:25the significance of That was her house.
31:27That was her house. Okay. So, you
31:28remember that location? Yep. Do you
31:30remember what the crossroad was or I
31:33don't think there was a crossroad. It's
31:34sort of just uh on the south end of 37.
31:37Okay.
31:38um when you get stopped at that
31:40location, has there been a time in the
31:43recent uh one or two weeks that uh your
31:46vehicle has uh left that road for any
31:50reason whatsoever? Have you driven into
31:51a field with your vehicle at all? Um for
31:54any reason you can think of? No. Okay.
31:57Um because I want you to rack your brain
31:59here. This is important. So, is there
32:00anything you can remember doing that uh
32:03you know would have caused you to to
32:06drive off the road? No. At that section
32:08of roadway? No, that's my early uh
32:10that's the early part of the highway and
32:12um just head north. It's about 30
32:15minutes from there to
32:16uh probably 20 from there to my house.
32:19Okay. Um, would it surprise you to know
32:23that uh when the CSI officers were uh
32:26looking around her property uh that they
32:29identified um a set of tire tracks uh to
32:33the north of her property um looks as if
32:36the vehicle left the road and uh drove
32:39along the north tree line of of Jessica
32:42Lloyd's property. Okay. Okay. Um they
32:44took uh they examined those tire tracks
32:49and uh they have contacts in the tire
32:52business. Obviously tire tracks are a
32:54major source of uh evidence for us.
32:56Sure. Um shortly after um this
33:00investigation started, they identified
33:02those tires as the same uh tires on your
33:05Pathfinder. Really? Yeah.
33:08Okay. Okay. One of the other uh one of
33:11the other things that they do to try and
33:13identify the type of vehicle that may
33:14have left those tires well is they do
33:16two things. They they talk to witnesses.
33:18Okay. Um there was a uh a female police
33:22officer that actually drove by that
33:23location uh that evening and recall
33:26seeing an SUV type vehicle in the field
33:29to the north of Jessica Lloyd's house uh
33:32consistent with a a Pathfinder. Okay.
33:34Could maybe be consistent with other
33:35things but consistent with a Pathfinder.
33:37Um, and they uh what they also do to try
33:40and identify the type of the vehicle is
33:43they look at uh what they call the
33:45wheelbase width. Okay? Because different
33:47vehicles, different makes, models have
33:48wheelbase width. So they can take those
33:50two sets of tire tracks, measure the
33:52distance between them. Okay? And
33:54determine what the uh the width is.
33:56Sure. And then they can enter that into
33:58a vehicle database and it will spit out
34:00the types of vehicles. Okay.
34:02um your Pathfinder's wheelbase width is
34:06very very close to the width of the uh
34:08of the tires uh that were left in that
34:11field. Okay.
34:13Um do you have any recollection at all
34:16of being off that road? I was not off
34:18the road. No. Okay. All
34:21right. Russell,
34:24um is there anything you can think of?
34:27Let's go talk about Marie France Como
34:29for a minute. Okay. Mhm. Is there any
34:31reason at all you can think of
34:35that during our investigation, obviously
34:38we're searching uh computers, uh things
34:41like Blackberries, right? Electronic
34:43devices, uh looking through houses for
34:46things that are in handwriting, written
34:48notes, diaries, things like that. Um,
34:51now I'm not at liberty to tell you what
34:52the content was, but is there any reason
34:54at all you can think of why Marie France
34:57Como would have specifically referenced
35:00you in some of her uh some of her
35:02writings?
35:05Not at all. No.
35:07No. Absolutely not. Okay. Is there
35:10anything that she ever said to you that
35:12led you to believe that there might be
35:13something uh more than a passing
35:15interest with her towards you? Not at
35:18all. No. We spent, you know, one flight
35:21together talking, I'd go back
35:23occasionally and talk.
35:26No, I if that's the case, that's that's
35:29very surprising. Okay. All right. Um,
35:33you have any questions for me right now?
35:34No. Okay. I'm just going to step out and
35:36see how things are going. Okay. I mean,
35:38it is a Sunday, but there's probably 60
35:3970 people working on this file, so
35:41there's a lot of things happening. Sure.
35:42Uh, so let me go out and see what's
35:44happening, and then I'll uh I'll come
35:45back in and we'll hopefully continue.
35:47Okay. I told you when I came in here uh
35:50that I'm going to treat you with respect
35:52and I've asked you to do the same for
35:53me.
35:55Um we talked about the whole idea of how
35:57we've uh approached you here. Okay. Uh
36:01the trying to be as discreet as
36:03possible. Okay. But the problem is
36:06Russell is every time I walk out of this
36:08room there's another issue that comes
36:10up. Okay. And it's not issues that point
36:12away from you. It's issues that point at
36:14you. Okay. And I want I want you to see
36:16what I mean. All
36:20right. This is the footwear
36:25impression of the person who
36:28approached the rear of Jessica Lloyd's
36:31house. Mhm. On the evening of the 28th
36:34and 29th of January. Okay. All right.
36:38Now, I want you to keep in mind that
36:39this is slightly smaller. Okay. In
36:41scale. Okay. Okay. All right. That's not
36:44to scale. That's the footwear is
36:45actually bigger. Okay, if you look here
36:47on the ruler, you'll see that uh 1 in is
36:50just slightly smaller than actual inch.
36:52Okay, but this is the way it prints off
36:54on the computer.
36:57I'm going to move this over so you can
36:58see what I mean. All right, cuz
37:00essentially when you're dealing with
37:01footwware impressions, um we have a
37:03gentleman on the OP who's uh basically
37:05worldrenowned. His name is John Norman.
37:08M and essentially with footwear
37:10impressions uh you're in a situation
37:12where you're you're pretty much in the
37:14area of of fingerprints. Okay. And
37:17essentially what we're talking about
37:19here is especially when you start adding
37:21in other pieces of of uh information
37:23that uh support uh an investigative
37:26position. Okay.
37:31This is a photocopy of the boot that uh
37:35you took off your foot. Yeah. just a
37:37little while ago. Okay. Now, I'm not an
37:41expert in footwear impressions, so I
37:42rely on the
37:43experts. Footwear impressions are very
37:46much like uh like fingerprint
37:48comparisons. Okay, you take a look at
37:50this print. And again, this is one
37:52print. This person walked through.
37:54There's several different prints to
37:56compare. So, we're going to get features
37:57off of one print to compare, features
37:59off of another print to compare. Y these
38:02are identical.
38:08Okay. Your vehicle drove up the side of
38:11Jessica Lloyd's
38:13house. Your boots walked to the back of
38:17Jessica Lloyd's house on the evening of
38:19the 28th and 29th of
38:21January. Okay. You want
38:24discretion. We need to have some
38:27honesty. Okay. Because this is this is
38:29getting out of control really fast,
38:32Russell. Okay. really really
38:49fast. This is getting beyond my
38:54control. All right. I came in here a few
38:57hours
38:58ago and I called you the way I called
39:00you today because I wanted to give you
39:01the benefit of doubt. Mhm. But you and I
39:04both
39:04know you were at Jessica Lloyd's house,
39:08and I need to know why.
39:16[Music]
39:40I don't know what to say. That's Well,
39:43you need to explain it because this is
39:45the other problem we're having, Russell.
39:47Okay. Again, these decisions are made by
39:49me.
39:51Right now, there's a search warrant
39:52being executed at your residence in
39:54Ottawa. Okay. So, your wife now knows
39:57what's going
39:59on. The search was being executed that
40:01day. Your residence in Toled and your
40:04vehicle's been seized.
40:06Okay. You and I both know they're going
40:08to find evidence that links you to
40:12these
40:14situations. Okay. You and I both know
40:16that the unknown offender mailed
40:21May on Marie France Cuomo's body is
40:25going to be matched to you quite
40:27possibly before the evening's
40:29over. Okay. This is a major
40:32investigation. The Center of Forensic
40:33Sciences on call 24 hours a day helping
40:35us with this. Mhm.
40:39Your opportunity to take some control
40:41here and to have some explanation that
40:45anybody is going to
40:47believe
40:49is quickly expiring.
40:55Okay, we're applying the investigators
40:58now applying for a warrant to search
41:00your
41:03office. Right. These aren't decisions
41:05that we can say yes or no to. This is a
41:07practical steps in an investigation like
41:12this. And Russell
41:34Russell Mhm. listen to me for a second,
41:37okay? When that evidence comes in, when
41:40that DNA match, when that phone rings
41:42and somebody knocks on this door,
41:46your credibility is gone, okay? Because
41:49this is how credibility works. All
41:50right? And I know you're an intelligent
41:52person and you probably don't need to
41:53hear this explanation, but I also know
41:55your mind's racing right now. Okay?
41:57Because I've sat across a lot of people
41:59in your position over the years. Okay.
42:01The bottom line is is that as soon as we
42:04get that that piece of evidence that
42:06solidifies it, DNA. Okay. As soon as the
42:11expert in footwear impressions, the
42:13expert in tire impressions calls and
42:16says, "Yes, I've examined those and
42:18they're a match." Mhm.
42:22It's all over. Because as soon as that
42:25happens, where's your credibility?
42:28Where's your believability? you're just
42:29another uh and again don't take this
42:34wrong okay but you can see if you step
42:36outside this room in your mind and
42:38imagine how people are going to view you
42:41okay if the truth comes out after the
42:45clear evidence is presented to you when
42:48you finally go okay I'm screwed now
42:53what are we going to
43:04Russell, you know there's only one
43:06option. What do you What do you What
43:08other option is there? What's the
43:10option?
43:12Well, I don't think you want the cold
43:14blooded psychopath
43:19option. I might be
43:22wrong. Okay, because don't get me wrong,
43:25I've met guys who actually kind of
43:27enjoyed the notoriety, got off on
43:30it, got off on having that
43:33label, Bernardo being one of them. I
43:36don't see that in you. If I saw that in
43:38you, I wouldn't be back in here talking
43:39to you, quite
43:47frankly. But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you
43:49got me fooled. I don't know.
43:57this is
44:00over. And it can have
44:03a a bad
44:05ending where Jessica's parents
44:09continue to wonder where her daughter's
44:17lying. And I don't know. I mean,
44:19obviously there's a huge search still
44:22underway, and it'll
44:24continue. It'll continue until her
44:26body's
44:30found. That might even happen tonight
44:32for all I
44:36know. Once that
44:39happens, then I don't know what other
44:41cards you would have to play.
44:51What are we going to do?
45:26rest. What are we going to
45:34do? Call me Russ, please. Okay.
45:40What are we going to do, Russ?
46:07Is Jessica somewhere we can find her
46:11easily? Like, is this something where I
46:13can make a call and tell somebody to go
46:14to a location and they're going to find
46:15her, or is this something where we have
46:17to go and and
46:20uh take a walk?
46:46Which direction are we heading in here?
47:32Russ,
47:34maybe maybe this would help. Can you
47:36tell me what the issue is you're
47:38struggling with?
48:04What's the issue you're struggling with?
49:10It's hard to believe this is that.
49:16Why is that?
49:40Why is it hard to
50:01believe? It's just hard to believe.
50:09Whose decision was it, and we're going
50:13to find out the answer to this anyway,
50:15but whose decision was it to issue the
50:18uh the directive to the base personnel
50:21that nobody had to speak to the police
50:22and to seek legal counsel before they
50:24were
50:28questioned? My I don't think that was my
50:31understanding that direction came from
50:33somebody that reports to you.
50:36What do you think they're going to say,
50:38Russ? No. What do you think they're
50:40going to say? All right. And and let's
50:42let's step back for a second here. Okay.
50:46I really don't think it benefits you or
50:48makes you look any better to start
50:49debating the little issues. But that is
50:51news to me. Okay. I have a legal officer
50:54that reports to me. Yeah. Who may have
50:56given that direction. Okay. But that's
50:58the first time I've heard. That's true.
51:00That's the first time I've heard that.
51:01All right. And that may be the case, but
51:04how does it
51:07look,
51:09right? We're not even dealing with
51:11something that's really even evidence
51:13cuz it's not needed. I mean, when you
51:14have you have DNA and all this other
51:16stuff, that's not even What was the
51:18direction? I don't recall, but it was
51:20something along the lines of of uh
51:22telling the people on the base that they
51:24didn't uh they weren't required legally
51:27to speak with police and they should
51:28seek legal counsel before they decided
51:30to speak. But well, if that was if that
51:32was actually said, it would not have
51:33been to the base at large. It it may
51:36have been to the individual, the uh the
51:38boyfriend who was the suspect. Okay. My
51:41understanding it went out to all
51:42personnel. No, maybe maybe. No, only
51:44under your command. I don't know. Okay,
51:46that's fine. I didn't never see it.
51:48That's fine. Now, let's get back to the
51:49issue. What's that? So, you talk about
51:51perception. My only two immediate
51:54concerns from a perception perspective
51:57are what my wife must be going through
51:59right now. Yeah.
52:02And the impact this is going to have on
52:04the Canadian forces. Where do we go?
52:24Russ, is there anything you want from
52:27me? Is there anything you want me to
52:30explain? Is there something missing that
52:32you're struggling with that I can shed
52:35some light on for
52:42you? I'm struggling with how upset my
52:45wife is right now. Russ, what are you
52:49looking for?
52:59I'm concerned that they're tearing apart
53:01my wife's brand new house. So am
53:05I. But if nobody tells
53:08them what's there and what's not, they
53:11don't have any choice.
53:15Computers will be brought to Microsoft
53:17in California. They'll be they'll be
53:19picked apart. You can't erase things
53:22from
53:24computers. It doesn't happen. I'm sure
53:26you've seen that. I'm sure that's pretty
53:28common knowledge these days. It just
53:29doesn't happen. There's they sell
53:32programs that uh to try and help people
53:35clean their computers of stuff. And our
53:38guys are pulling that stuff out all the
53:39time. The FBI is pulling that stuff out
53:41all the time.
53:51This
53:52investigation will end up costing no
53:54less than $10
53:57million.
54:01Easy. And they will say no to
54:05nothing. Any
54:07request this major case manager makes on
54:10this case, they've already been told
54:13it's approved. Don't even bother asking.
54:47So, what am I doing,
54:50Russ? I put my best foot forward here
54:52for you,
54:59bud. I really have. I don't I don't know
55:02what else to do to to m make you
55:04understand the impact of what's
55:05happening
55:24here. Do we talk?
55:29I want to
55:32um minimize the impact on my wife. So do
55:35I.
55:40So how do we do that?
55:43Well, we start by telling the truth.
56:14Okay.
56:16Okay. So, where is she?
56:40got a map.
56:43Um, is she close to where she lives?
56:45I've got maps of that general
56:52area. Which town is she near? Why don't
56:54we start there?
57:01I'm not sure if you give me a map of
57:03U that covers Caligar down to the
57:09highway and over to
57:12Tweed and stuff. I'll show you. Let me
57:15see what I got here. I might have
57:18something. Is she inside? Outside.
57:48It's probably the biggest area I have
57:49there for us.
57:52Yeah, you need more. You need a real
57:53map. So, where am I going on the on here
57:56to get to her?
57:59In this block here. Okay. So, you're
58:02pointing to a detailed map of that area
58:05and I'll show you where she is. Okay. Is
58:07she close to a road? Yep. All right.
58:12Um, is it something where is she is she
58:15buried or is she somewhere where if you
58:17walked there you would you would fairly
58:18easily see her? Did see her. Okay. So,
58:21she's south of seven,
58:24uh, east of Tweed, west of 41. Mhm. And,
58:28uh, what's this road here?
58:31Not sure. Neither am I.
58:34Okay, I'll be right back. Okay. Do you
58:36want any water or anything?
58:39Sure. Okay, I'll be right
58:44back. How long's she been there for?
58:47[Applause]
58:52A little over a week.
58:54Was it fairly quick from the
58:56time she left?
58:59Friday night.
59:01Friday night. Yep. So, where was she
59:03between Thursday night and Friday night?
59:06In tweet with you. Yep.
59:10How long was she alive for?
59:17almost 24 hours. Not quite.
59:21Okay,
59:23Russ. You're doing the right thing here.
59:28Okay. Well, again, my interest is in uh
59:33making my my wife's life a little easier
59:36and her family as well. But
59:40we share that interest. But there's no
59:41uh your time in Ottawa is wasted really.
59:45I'll tell you where the memory cards
59:47are. Where are they? They're in the
59:50house there. But
59:52in Ottawa. Yeah. Whereabouts?
59:57Um some in the camera bag, which they
59:59would have found in my office. Mhm. And
1:00:02in the when you walk into the office on
1:00:04the left side there's a um
1:00:09uh desk drawers set of drawers like a
1:00:13filing cabinet wooden
1:00:16IKEA in one of the top two drawers and
1:00:19there's a plastic divider. Yeah.
1:00:23And there's
1:00:24uh inside there there are two memory
1:00:27cards. Okay. which are blank, but I'm
1:00:30sure they can be re.
1:00:32And whose images are on those cards?
1:00:35Uh, well, I've erased them, but I expect
1:00:40uh you'll be able to draw images of uh
1:00:43Jessica and I.
1:00:46What about Marie?
1:00:55There may be images on there as well.
1:00:58Okay. And the two women from September?
1:01:01Yep. Okay. Do you have those images
1:01:05stored anywhere else?
1:01:11Yeah, there are um two hard drives in
1:01:14the house in
1:01:16Ottawa. I can draw you a little picture
1:01:18if you like.
1:01:21Sure. Do you want to do that now while
1:01:22I'm getting them out? Okay.
1:01:30You want anything to eat or
1:01:35anything? With you? Okay.
1:01:55But I do want to talk to you
1:01:59again. That's the plan.
1:02:07Okay. I'll be right back.
1:02:24Can you make it up
1:02:32there? Can you make it out? Sorry.
1:02:43somebody running around looking for an
1:02:44actual map. But uh I did the same thing
1:02:47with uh the Google maps. We just have to
1:02:50glue them up a little bit
1:02:52more.
1:02:58Um this is the this is the biggest of
1:03:01the
1:03:04area. This might have better parameters
1:03:06for you. There's tweet
1:03:08[Applause]
1:03:218.7 km from this
1:03:26intersection. And what road is that
1:03:29carry? South of can't read that
1:03:33word. Uh east Hungerford. Does that make
1:03:37sense?
1:03:38Oh, there it is. There. Okay. How far
1:03:41off the road is she? 40 ft. She bar is
1:03:45she covered with anything.
1:03:48She wrapped up. She's on the surface.
1:03:52Just a gray something or there covered.
1:03:58Okay. Barry, the obvious question I'm
1:04:00going to have for you
1:04:03is when they go there, and they'll be
1:04:06there shortly, they're going to find
1:04:08her. Oh, yeah. Okay. I'll be right back.
1:04:14You want to say something? Just that the
1:04:17this place, my wife, it's been a dream
1:04:20for better part of a year. So, I'm keen
1:04:23to get them what they need and so they
1:04:25can leave right alone. Okay. Oh, we're
1:04:27going to do our best to keep that as low
1:04:28key as possible. Okay. What do you want
1:04:31to talk about?
1:04:35Guess it's uh pretty wide open now.
1:04:38Yeah. What do you want to know? Well, do
1:04:40you want to work forwards or backwards?
1:04:45Doesn't matter. Why don't we start with
1:04:48Jessica? Okay.
1:04:51How does that start for you?
1:04:57Um, I saw her in her house on her
1:05:03treadmill, Wednesday night, I
1:05:07guess. Then I noticed she wasn't
1:05:11um there
1:05:14Thursday. So, I got into the house, look
1:05:22around, then
1:05:24um and then
1:05:27left. Notice she'd come
1:05:31home. So, I went back
1:05:36in through the uh back patio
1:05:40door while she was sleeping.
1:05:57Okay, so I woke her
1:06:11up. Didn't um
1:06:14didn't hit her. She only hit her
1:06:16once Friday
1:06:34night. Okay.
1:06:43Well, so I raped her in uh in her
1:06:49house and then I took her to the car and
1:06:52took her to
1:07:05tweet. And um
1:07:11spent the day in
1:07:18tweet and then I hit her uh as we were
1:07:22walking. She thought we were
1:07:28leaving. Hit her on the back of the
1:07:30head.
1:07:44Okay. Anything in particular?
1:07:48Well, um, what did the hit on the back
1:07:50of the head do?
1:07:56Well, I was surprised it, uh, her her
1:08:00skull gave way.
1:08:03She was there and immediately
1:08:06unconscious and I strangled her.
1:08:10Okay.
1:08:11What did you hit her with?
1:08:14Flashlight.
1:08:16Okay. In the house or outside the house?
1:08:18In the house.
1:08:23Yeah. They'll find signs of that.
1:08:28Where in the house did this
1:08:29happen? in the main portion just in
1:08:32front of the fireplace.
1:08:34What do you mean the fine signs of it?
1:08:36Oh, there's quite a bit of blood. I
1:08:37hadn't expected I'd expected to knock
1:08:40her
1:08:43out, but obviously generated a lot of
1:08:46blood.
1:08:48What did she bleed onto? The floor. It's
1:08:51just tile floor. Okay. Did you clean it
1:08:55up or did you I I wiped it
1:08:58up. I know it'll be easily spotted.
1:09:02Well, it makes you think that like if I
1:09:05walked in that house right now, but I
1:09:07see it. You wouldn't see it. Not at all.
1:09:08But uh yeah.
1:09:11All right. Science. We'll uh we'll show
1:09:13it, I'm sure. Okay. Um so, when that
1:09:18happened, was she did she have clothes
1:09:19on or was she naked? She was dressed.
1:09:22Okay. So, when we find her, is she going
1:09:24to have those clothes on, too? Yeah.
1:09:28All right.
1:09:31Um,
1:09:33okay. Marie France, uh,
1:09:43Como. There was an open window in the
1:09:46basement of her uh, her house when she
1:09:49was away.
1:09:51I went in there a couple of nights
1:09:54before she came
1:09:56home, looked
1:10:01around. I went back in there late at
1:10:04night when she was at
1:10:06home. Was on the phone in her
1:10:14bedroom. She actually discovered me in
1:10:17the basement.
1:10:21She was trying to get her cat to come
1:10:22upstairs and the cat was in the basement
1:10:25seen me and was fixated on me in the
1:10:27corner. She couldn't get the cat up. So,
1:10:31uh, she came downstairs to try and get
1:10:34the cat
1:10:35and I'm not sure why she uh came over to
1:10:39me. I guess the cat was staring at me
1:10:41and she was wondering why the cat was
1:10:42staring
1:10:46at. Lights were on.
1:10:56So when she spotted me,
1:10:59I had the same
1:11:02flashlight. I subdued
1:11:07her, tied her up upstairs.
1:11:19and
1:11:20uh strangled
1:11:24her later in the
1:11:30morning. Well, suffocated
1:11:35her. some
1:11:43tape left her there.
1:11:52How did you subdue her? And when you say
1:11:53subdued her in the basement, what did
1:11:54you do?
1:11:56Well, I had the same
1:11:58flashlight and
1:12:01um you
1:12:05know, she she saw me right away. So, I
1:12:08was just uh I hit her a couple of times
1:12:11and around her head, try and knock her
1:12:15out. Didn't, but um she was bleeding a
1:12:19little bit.
1:12:25eventually
1:12:27um after a struggle subdued her.
1:12:35Okay. Any blood from from that struggle?
1:12:38Oh, yeah. No, not not a whole bunch, but
1:12:42uh flashlight did break her skin a
1:12:46couple of times.
1:12:48Okay. What area of the basement did that
1:12:51take place in?
1:12:54I was hiding behind the furnace, so she
1:12:57spotted me right there. Okay. Did she
1:13:00recognize you? No, I had uh stuff on my
1:13:04face.
1:13:13Okay.
1:13:16Um so you go upstairs and you said uh
1:13:19she
1:13:20suffocated. Well, I suffocated her. I
1:13:23put tape on her I put tape on her
1:13:27mouth and then I put tape on her nose
1:13:32and held it there so she couldn't
1:13:39breathe.
1:13:41Okay. Um, what kind of tape was it? 13.
1:13:48What happened to it?
1:13:53Uh well, I took it with me and
1:14:02uh can't can't remember what actually I
1:14:05did with that tape, but uh probably
1:14:08threw it in the garbage.
1:14:11Did you use tape for any other
1:14:17purposes? No.
1:14:21Okay. Um, did she ever recognize you
1:14:25through this whole episode?
1:14:27What did you say you had on your face?
1:14:32Uh, just a a cover for my head. Just a,
1:14:35you know, a
1:14:38sports pullover type like just a little
1:14:41cap kind of thing. Okay. Just
1:14:45a, you
1:14:47know, wer or something.
1:14:51and they
1:14:54um just a headband over my nose and
1:14:57mouth. So covered most everything but my
1:15:00eyes. Okay.
1:15:05Um now this flashlight, where is that
1:15:08now? In tweet. In the house. Yep. What
1:15:12kind of flashlight is it? It's a red uh
1:15:173D. I'm not
1:15:19sure what brand it is, but it's a metal.
1:15:22You know, I want these
1:15:24aluminum. It's like a big
1:15:30u remember what
1:15:32brand aircraft
1:15:34aluminum flashlights already. Anyway,
1:15:37it's a big bigger one of those.
1:15:40Um, did you take anything out of uh
1:15:43Marie Francis's house or Jessica Lloyd's
1:15:46house?
1:15:47Uh yeah, some of their underwear.
1:15:52Okay, that's all. And where is that?
1:16:03Um it's in some
1:16:07boxes in the basement here in Ottawa in
1:16:10that Rick
1:16:11room. So we just moved in. So there
1:16:14boxes everywhere. So, on the same side
1:16:16as the furnace
1:16:17room, sort of in the back against the
1:16:19wall. Okay. What do the other boxes look
1:16:22like?
1:16:26Um, I think one's a scanner. The box for
1:16:30my scanner. Mhm.
1:16:34They're they're all right next to each
1:16:36other. So, if I look through the boxes
1:16:40there, how much underwear is in those
1:16:42boxes?
1:16:50Um, probably 60 pieces or so total. All
1:16:54women's.
1:16:55Yeah. 60 pieces of theirs.
1:17:00Of who's of Jessica's and
1:17:04uh France.
1:17:09So, you took 60 pieces from between the
1:17:11two of them. Yeah.
1:17:13Okay. Think so.
1:17:15All right. Um, and they're in like when
1:17:18you talk about a scanner, is it a
1:17:20computer scanner box? My computer
1:17:21scanner is up in the office and it's box
1:17:23is down in the basement. So, okay. It's
1:17:25inside that box. Is any of the underwear
1:17:28in those boxes belong to anyone other
1:17:30than Marie Fron or uh or Jessica?
1:17:39Um, yep. There's some from each of the
1:17:42other two women.
1:17:45Okay. Uh why don't we talk about those
1:17:47two women? Um so the first one happened
1:17:50on the 16th and I don't know why I can't
1:17:54recall their names but
1:17:57uh the lady that was
1:17:59uh live closer to you. No. Or it was
1:18:03closer to me. Okay.
1:18:09So, the first uh the first
1:18:13one, I had just spotted
1:18:16her from our boat.
1:18:21Actually, I got into the house while she
1:18:24was uh asleep. Noticed that she was
1:18:32alone and
1:18:34u just hit her with my hand while she
1:18:37was sleeping.
1:18:43subdued
1:18:46her mostly just my weight on top of
1:18:56her.
1:18:57Um, had her take off her
1:19:01pajamas, took some
1:19:04pictures, took some of her underwear,
1:19:06and left.
1:19:12And the other woman,
1:19:15same kind of deal. Went through the back
1:19:17of the
1:19:21house. She was sleeping in her um not in
1:19:24her bedroom, but her, you know, front of
1:19:27the
1:19:28TV. Very much the same
1:19:32story.
1:19:36Anything different about that story? I
1:19:38mean, pretty much same story and exactly
1:19:40the same story or two different things,
1:19:42right? Yeah. No. Uh, not much different
1:19:44at all. Um, I did have the flashlight
1:19:49that time. I hit her with a
1:19:51flashlight and thinking it would knock
1:19:53her
1:19:53out.
1:19:55Didn't.
1:19:57So, subdued her with my weight.
1:20:02Off her closed, took some pictures and
1:20:12left. Why do you think these things
1:20:14happen?
1:20:30Have you spent much time thinking about
1:20:32that? About why? Yeah.
1:20:36Yeah.
1:20:41But I don't have the
1:20:47answers, man. I'm pretty sure the
1:20:49answers don't matter.
1:20:52Well, let me let me ask you this. Did
1:20:53you like or dislike these women?
1:20:58I didn't know any of them.
1:21:00Okay.
1:21:02I had met Marie France that one time in
1:21:06that in our airplane. Okay. No, I guess
1:21:10I I guess I'm when you're going through
1:21:12these things.
1:21:15Um, are you Well, let me let's talk
1:21:18about Jessica because she was there with
1:21:19you for the whole day, right?
1:21:22What kind of feelings were you
1:21:23experiencing while you were with her
1:21:25that
1:21:40day? Oh, she's a very nice girl.
1:21:54Can you tell me why you killed her?
1:21:56Russ, do you know why you killed her?
1:21:59Well, I think I killed her because I
1:22:00knew that
1:22:11uh her story would be recognized.
1:22:19her story would be recognized. How do
1:22:21you mean?
1:22:23Well, because she knew I was taking
1:22:24pictures.
1:22:27Mhm.
1:22:34So because of the uh
1:22:39two stories in
1:22:44tweed that would have been
1:22:49fairly been quite
1:22:54obvious. So if you didn't take pictures,
1:22:57what would you have done with her?
1:23:02I don't know. I mean, she's at your
1:23:05house,
1:23:07right?
1:23:09Um well, let me ask you this. Is it
1:23:13uh two lived, right, and two died?
1:23:18What's what was the difference in your
1:23:20mind between
1:23:22Well, the
1:23:24um the attention the first two got
1:23:31um was very much f focused
1:23:35on
1:23:36obviously or for obvious reasons uh
1:23:39pictures I
1:23:45took. So anybody else telling stories
1:23:48about pictures, right, would have
1:23:52been a fairly straight
1:23:58line. Okay. But when when this thing
1:24:01happened with Marie
1:24:03France, it was was did you believe that
1:24:07you were already a suspect for what
1:24:10happened in Tweet? No.
1:24:14So what what were you concerned about?
1:24:20Well, because
1:24:27um I was pretty sure that
1:24:31uh you know she was serving military,
1:24:34right? Mhm.
1:24:37It would have been
1:24:38uh it would have been difficult
1:24:41for investigators to
1:24:44ignore that
1:24:47connection.
1:24:50Okay, makes sense.
1:24:56Um let's go back to Jessica then. Okay.
1:25:00Um, you see her on the Wednesday night.
1:25:04Okay. On a treadmill. Mhm. How do you
1:25:07see her? She was in the basement, window
1:25:10wide open on a treadmill. So, I drove
1:25:14by.
1:25:18Okay. Did Did you stop to look at the
1:25:20house or how how does that catch your
1:25:23eye as you drive by?
1:25:26Well, I was looking to see who was who
1:25:28is
1:25:30where don't know that area very well.
1:25:33So, I was just keeping my eyes open.
1:25:39Okay. So, you spot her on the Wednesday?
1:25:42Yeah. Um, do you just keep on going or
1:25:44did you stop and take a closer look that
1:25:47night or anything? No, I kept
1:25:50Okay. And you went back on the Thursday
1:25:53night, right? Yep.
1:25:57So, you go back on the Thursday night
1:26:00and you went you went into the house
1:26:02before she came
1:26:07home. Yeah, she was
1:26:10out.
1:26:12Okay. Those
1:26:18um Yeah, she was out. Got in through the
1:26:22kitchen window.
1:26:23It's unlocked. Everything else was
1:26:25locked.
1:26:30Okay. So, you're in there doing what?
1:26:35Looking around. Looking around to see
1:26:36who lived in the house.
1:26:40It was just her. Okay.
1:26:44And then what do you do?
1:26:53Well, I left the
1:26:56house and
1:27:05uh and she came
1:27:08home. I had been out of the house very
1:27:12long, so I watched for a little bit to
1:27:15see if she was alone.
1:27:19She
1:27:29was I went in and she went back to
1:27:32sleep. Actually went to sleep.
1:27:37Okay. So, you go in, she's sleeping, and
1:27:41what do you do?
1:27:46Well, I I snuck up to the side of her
1:27:52bed, expecting to
1:27:57uh try to knock her
1:28:01out. She woke
1:28:06up, but she did. As I
1:28:10said, I didn't hit her. What did you
1:28:14say?
1:28:17lie down on your tummy.
1:28:20Okay. She did. I tied her up.
1:28:24What'd you tie her up with? Some rope by
1:28:27the front.
1:28:31So, she's on her stomach. How are you
1:28:32tying her up? Just ting her hands behind
1:28:35her back.
1:28:37Okay. She got clothes on at that point.
1:28:40Mhm. What kind of clothes?
1:28:44sweats,
1:28:47right? Tie your hands behind her back
1:28:49and then then what happens?
1:28:52I took her clothes off.
1:29:08Okay. And then what happened?
1:29:13I raped her.
1:29:18A rape could mean a lot of different
1:29:20things. What kind of sexual act took
1:29:22place?
1:29:30Vaginal and oral.
1:29:34Okay.
1:29:36Oral. Who was performing the oral sex?
1:29:42Um,
1:29:45no. Me on her and her on me.
1:29:49Okay. Any uh any condoms used or
1:29:53anything like that? No.
1:29:56No. So, and again, correct me if I'm
1:29:59wrong, vaginal intercourse,
1:30:03uh, her performing oral sex on you and
1:30:05you performing oral sex on her. Mhm. Do
1:30:08you remember what order those things
1:30:09occurred in?
1:30:12Yeah, I
1:30:14uh started with the oral
1:30:21sex then I raped
1:30:24her and then later on I made
1:30:27her for moral sex on me.
1:30:32Okay. Anything any kind of conversation
1:30:35happening when this is going on?
1:30:40Yeah, a little bit. What was being said?
1:30:47I threatened her before she
1:30:51uh before I had
1:30:55her perform oral sex.
1:30:59What did you say?
1:31:01Well, I put a zip tie around her
1:31:05neck. I said
1:31:08uh that I would pull it if I didn't like
1:31:11what she would do.
1:31:16Okay. So, she did what you told her to
1:31:18do. Mhm. Any issues there?
1:31:22Any reason to pull it? No.
1:31:27So, do you remember if you ejaculated at
1:31:30that point or at any point? Um, not at
1:31:33that point, but later on.
1:31:36Okay. So, the oral sex finishes and then
1:31:40what happens next?
1:31:47Well, I continued
1:31:52to rape her and I had her put on some of
1:31:56her
1:31:58underwear, took some pictures, lots of
1:32:03pictures, and then
1:32:05uh got her
1:32:08dressed, walk back to the trip.
1:32:11Okay. At what point did you decide that
1:32:14she was going to leave with you?
1:32:23I'm not sure that wasn't
1:32:25um necessarily always the
1:32:31plan, but at some point uh I was there
1:32:40for
1:32:42three three hours. Three and a bit
1:32:55Okay. Um, do you remember the
1:32:57conversation about leaving? Was there
1:32:59any she say anything about that
1:33:02or what was she saying to you? She was
1:33:10um certainly
1:33:14cooperative. Okay.
1:33:23A cooperative can mean a number of
1:33:25different things. Was she excited about
1:33:27leaving with you? I don't want to be
1:33:28sarcastic, but um No, no, she just
1:33:31didn't put up too much of a fuss. Did
1:33:33she try and negotiate with you at all or
1:33:39What did she say? Well, I told her that
1:33:41I would
1:33:42uh let her go later on.
1:33:49Okay. So, when you take her out of your
1:33:52house, is she is she still bound or Yep.
1:33:56How how was that done? Just uh hands
1:33:59behind her back. Okay. What about her
1:34:02feet? Anything there?
1:34:04No, she was walking freely.
1:34:07Okay. Barefoot or? No, no, she had those
1:34:10brown suede shoes on that had been
1:34:13reported.
1:34:17Okay. So, where does she sit in your
1:34:19truck when you get to the truck?
1:34:22Front seat, passenger side.
1:34:25Okay. And where do you go?
1:34:29Straight to Tweet.
1:34:31Straight to your house in Tweet or
1:34:33straight to just the town? Straight to
1:34:34the house. No stops anywhere? No. Okay.
1:34:37What time do you remember what time you
1:34:39arrived there?
1:34:45I don't exactly, but I'd say between
1:34:474:30 and 5:30.
1:34:52Okay. All
1:34:55right. When you were uh when you were
1:34:57first there before she came home, do you
1:35:00remember did anybody come to the door at
1:35:02all when you were in the house? No.
1:35:08No. I think somebody had come home.
1:35:09somebody to come to the house just
1:35:11before she did cuz I thought it was her
1:35:13but then they left. I was outside at the
1:35:16time. Did you see who that person was or
1:35:19what kind of vehicle they were in or
1:35:20anything?
1:35:21Saw the lights. They assumed it was her
1:35:23and then all of a sudden they left. So I
1:35:26don't know what happened. Okay. Um where
1:35:29were you when that first vehicle pulled
1:35:32up? In the back. Back here.
1:35:35Okay. So you didn't have a view of the
1:35:37vehicle. You could just tell like there
1:35:39was a vehicle there. Is that fair? Okay.
1:35:43So, you get home about 4:35 you say?
1:35:48Okay. And then what happens?
1:35:55Uh well, she um she had to go to the
1:36:01bathroom and
1:36:04u quick shower,
1:36:08washer. Then we went into my
1:36:15bedroom
1:36:17and to sleep a little bit. She was tied
1:36:21up.
1:36:25How was she tied up at that point? The
1:36:31underd tape over her eyes from the
1:36:34beginning. So that's what she did.
1:36:40Okay. When they find her, is that tape
1:36:42going to be there or was it ever
1:36:44removed?
1:36:46No, I removed it. Okay. What kind of
1:36:49tape? Tape.
1:36:51All
1:36:54right. The duct tape that you used,
1:36:57where's where's that
1:36:59roll? Uh, it's all gone. It
1:37:03um I used it to I used the rest of it to
1:37:07bind
1:37:08her bind her body.
1:37:14So, by all gone, is it is it with the
1:37:16body now? Okay.
1:37:20So you said who went to sleep when you
1:37:22came home? You had a sh or she had a
1:37:24shower. Well, we both got in. I washed
1:37:27her off after she'd been to the
1:37:28bathroom. We both went to
1:37:31sleep, but she was tied up and I tied
1:37:34the
1:37:35rope, you know, so I could fall asleep a
1:37:38little
1:37:39bit. She could move without waking me
1:37:42up. Okay. I'm trying to picture how that
1:37:45would be. So the rope's tied to what on
1:37:47her? It's tied to her hands. behind her
1:37:50back. Okay. And it and then the rope
1:37:54just wrapped around me a couple of
1:37:55times, so there was no slack. Okay. Do
1:37:59you remember how long you slept for?
1:38:02Not long. Maybe a couple hours.
1:38:04Do you know if she slept?
1:38:08I don't know.
1:38:10Okay. So, you wake up and and it wasn't
1:38:13We were up and down, up and down. So, it
1:38:16wasn't two hours straight. It was two
1:38:18hours in bed,
1:38:19but it wasn't much sleep. Just lying
1:38:23there probably.
1:38:26So, you you get up from that and what
1:38:29happens next?
1:38:36Um, she had a
1:38:39seizure actually.
1:38:46She felt it coming on and
1:38:50um cuz she'd had some
1:38:56before lasted
1:39:00uh quite a while. Got her
1:39:05dressed into the uh family room and
1:39:15Anyway, she
1:39:18uh she recovered. She got
1:39:22uh there was obviously
1:39:27stress, but
1:39:32uh yeah,
1:39:35probably went on for about 15
1:39:38minutes of it.
1:39:47So, how do you know she had them before?
1:39:51She told me. Did she tell you why she
1:39:53gets them? Well, she suggested it was
1:39:56stress.
1:39:58Yeah. So, she felt
1:40:00herself start to tense up
1:40:03and said she thought she was going to
1:40:05have a seizure.
1:40:13Yeah. Sorry. She was she
1:40:17was convulsions. That's what she was.
1:40:21Okay.
1:40:24So, she was recovered from that. Yeah.
1:40:26She um I stayed with her and talked her
1:40:29through it
1:40:31and make sure
1:40:35she bite her tongue.
1:40:43Okay. And then what
1:40:46happened? Well, then we had a little lie
1:40:48down right there cuz she was obviously
1:40:54exhausted. Put a cover over her
1:40:57and went to
1:41:03sleep. Wait for an hour or so.
1:41:07And I had told
1:41:09her earlier that before I let her go, I
1:41:12wanted to take some pictures of her in
1:41:15her
1:41:17underwear and
1:41:23uh have sex with
1:41:33her. So after she'd had u a rest for an
1:41:37hour or
1:41:40so, I had her put
1:41:47on a number of different outfits she
1:41:50had. I'm sorry. Put on a number, you
1:41:54know,
1:41:56pairs, panties, bra that she had. Okay.
1:42:00Taken from the house.
1:42:05So, she put those on and I took
1:42:07pictures. Okay.
1:42:13Are you in any of these pictures?
1:42:16Yep.
1:42:21What What kind of im What kind of images
1:42:23are you in?
1:42:35Um, while I'm with her,
1:42:38there's on the hard drives. You'll see
1:42:40there's video as
1:42:42well. So, there was video of the
1:42:51um almost four hours, I guess.
1:42:56of what?
1:43:03Well, of
1:43:10uh initially at her place of me raping
1:43:14[Music]
1:43:17her and then
1:43:22uh yeah, so I was running the
1:43:25video and then taking still pictures. So
1:43:28the video pretty much covers everything.
1:43:32Did you use video? at other places
1:43:36at M Frances as well. Okay. And is that
1:43:41video on the hard drives? Yeah.
1:43:44Same type of
1:43:45uh activity. Yeah.
1:43:49Although I didn't have her put on any
1:43:51stuff.
1:43:53Okay.
1:43:56So Jessica poses for these pictures and
1:43:59there's videos and um and then what
1:44:08happens then? Um I got her dressed cuz
1:44:12she thought she was
1:44:16leaving a bite to
1:44:18eat fruit.
1:44:23And then as we were walking out, I
1:44:25struck her on the back of the head.
1:44:31Okay. When did you decide to do that?
1:44:51Well, I was uh pretty sure that I wasn't
1:44:54going to let her leave, but
1:45:01u the idea of striking her on the head
1:45:05was developed in the afternoon.
1:45:13And what was that strike supposed to
1:45:14accomplish in your mind? What was the
1:45:16intent of of doing that?
1:45:19Well, I thought I would be able to knock
1:45:21her out and then I was I was going to
1:45:23strangle her.
1:45:27Okay. So, when you actually do strike
1:45:29her, what what's the result?
1:45:34Her skull gave way a little
1:45:37bit. Felt like There was a lot of blood.
1:45:40So I think that's what
1:45:43happened. She was immediately
1:45:56unconscious. And then I um strangled
1:46:00her.
1:46:03How'd you strangle her?
1:46:06Uh the same
1:46:08rope. Just put her on her neck.
1:46:11Okay. Well, she was uh
1:46:18unconscious. Now, what happened to the
1:46:20zip tie that was around her neck
1:46:26earlier? I took it off. Uh
1:46:35around then, I guess.
1:46:41Did you take it off before you put the
1:46:42rope around her neck or or after? Or do
1:46:44you remember? After she was dead.
1:46:48Oh, okay. So, the zip tie was around her
1:46:50neck while you used the rope. Mhm. Okay.
1:46:53Did you leave the rope around her
1:46:54neck? No. Okay.
1:46:58And how did you know she was dead?
1:47:08She
1:47:12um well her body stopped
1:47:19moving. Okay.
1:47:23So what did you do after that?
1:47:27I uh I bound her up.
1:47:33There's field
1:47:44position and uh cleaned up the floor.
1:48:02No, you say you bound her up. Is that
1:48:04Are you referring to the duct tape that
1:48:05you talked about earlier? Yeah. Okay.
1:48:08So, then what did you
1:48:13do? I um put her in the
1:48:18garage. It was very
1:48:24cold. And then I went into the base.
1:48:29Okay.
1:48:33Why'd you go to the base? Pardon me?
1:48:35Why'd you go to the base? Cuz I was
1:48:39flying early the next morning. Okay. So,
1:48:42what time did you leave to go to the
1:48:43base?
1:48:46I told you about between 9 and 10 or so
1:48:50on the Friday night. Yep.
1:48:53Okay. So you fly and
1:48:58then I drove home to
1:49:02Ottawa. So which night would you?
1:49:06Saturday night. So you land uh
1:49:10and what time are you landing? 600 6:30.
1:49:14Okay. Saturday night. Did you go by the
1:49:16house in Tweet on your way to Ottawa or?
1:49:18No.
1:49:20Um so you drove straight home to Ottawa?
1:49:24What time did you get there at? Do you
1:49:26remember? Okay. Sometime before
1:49:28midnight. I can't quite remember, but uh
1:49:30I think I went in the office first did
1:49:32some
1:49:36work. So I think I get home a lot just
1:49:42before I think. Not sure.
1:49:46I I slept for a little bit at the Tim
1:49:49Hortons in
1:49:50Brockville. So it might be later. I
1:49:52honestly can't remember when I get out
1:49:54of it. Okay. Yeah.
1:49:57Midnightish Saturday. Mhm.
1:50:13So, you get home, you're in Ottawa. What
1:50:16do you do? Go to bed or Yeah. Stay up.
1:50:19Okay.
1:50:21So then what do you do the next day?
1:50:27Well, my wife and I did some stuff. I
1:50:29can't remember what
1:50:31uh what was going on that
1:50:36day putting together the new
1:50:41house and I headed back to tweet that
1:50:44night. Mhm.
1:50:48Sorry. Sorry.
1:50:52Um, no I did. I had uh I had Monday
1:50:57off. That's right. I had Monday off and
1:50:59then I was visiting uh one of the units
1:51:01in Ottawa on Tuesday. So I didn't head
1:51:05back to Tweet till Tuesday
1:51:07night.
1:51:13Okay. So you get back to Tweet and what
1:51:17happens next?
1:51:20I uh took Jessica's body to that spot.
1:51:25Okay. That happened on Tuesday
1:51:27night. Just this past Tuesday,
1:51:30obviously. Okay. Do you remember what
1:51:32time that was?
1:51:35It's pretty late. It was um
1:51:37midnightish. I'd say between midnight
1:51:40and
1:51:401 on
1:51:42uh Wednesday morning.
1:51:46Okay.
1:51:49Um, what made you decide to to measure
1:51:52that
1:51:53distance that 7 km?
1:51:57That's just the way I am.
1:52:00Numbers have to know the numbers.
1:52:04Okay. And um, how did you leave her?
1:52:11I just left her technically behind a u a
1:52:14fairly large rock.
1:52:18Is that duct tape still on her?
1:52:23And what else is on her?
1:52:26A couple of towels wrapped around her
1:52:28head and uh the top and pants. She was
1:52:32wearing jeans.
1:52:36Okay. Did you ever go back
1:52:39there?
1:52:41No. Right.
1:52:47Um, what other type of cleaning and
1:52:50things like that did you do? Anything
1:52:51else to kind of cover your tracks you
1:52:53can think of?
1:52:56I vacuumed the house and I uh wiped the
1:52:59the floor. Wash the floor.
1:53:04Okay. What about your truck? Did you do
1:53:06anything with that?
1:53:08Just
1:53:10the wash today because it was a mess
1:53:13and
1:53:15vacuum.
1:53:25Okay.
1:53:29Um, so Marie
1:53:32Fron, when did uh when did it first
1:53:35occur to you to go to her house?
1:53:45Uh probably in
1:53:49October, October, November, not quite
1:53:51sure, but somewhere in that time frame.
1:53:59And do you you remember why you that you
1:54:02thought to
1:54:04um to do
1:54:11that? Uh
1:54:14well, you know, she had said she lived
1:54:18alone when the one time I met her. Mhm.
1:54:38Um, just trying to understand why her
1:54:42versus, you know, the dozens of other
1:54:43women you probably come across on a
1:54:45daily basis.
1:54:52I don't know.
1:55:01Yeah. Yeah. I went up there when she
1:55:04wasn't home just to see where she lived.
1:55:06And
1:55:10when did you do that?
1:55:13A couple of nights before.
1:55:17How'd you know her address?
1:55:22This is a nominal role for the basement.
1:55:24Okay.
1:55:27So, when you go out there a couple of
1:55:29nights before, do you remember what
1:55:30night that was when you were there first
1:55:32time?
1:55:36I don't uh but I it was within two or
1:55:40three nights, I think.
1:55:42Okay. Well, no more than four anyway.
1:55:45Something about that. And did you
1:55:48actually go into her house on that
1:55:49occasion or did you uh Okay. So, what
1:55:52happened that night? How'd you How'd you
1:55:53get into her house? This window on the
1:55:55side of the
1:55:56basement, side window. Okay.
1:56:01Just a backst step of it. How did you
1:56:03get to our house that that first night
1:56:05you went there?
1:56:07I drove. What did you drive?
1:56:13Uh, I think I drove my
1:56:15truck. What kind of finder?
1:56:18Do you remember where you parked it?
1:56:22Yep. I parked it.
1:56:25Um bit of a division in
1:56:27the residential areas there. I parked it
1:56:30on another
1:56:32side 6 700 meters away. Okay. So, not on
1:56:36her street on a different street.
1:56:38Remember what street you parked on? No,
1:56:40but it's actually might be the same
1:56:41street, but there's an interruption in
1:56:43the street where there's a construction
1:56:45zone.
1:56:46So, there's a pathway in between. So, I
1:56:49think it's probably the same street.
1:56:52Okay. So, you uh you go to her house and
1:56:56when you went there that night, did you
1:56:58know that she was away?
1:57:03Uh I'm not sure if I knew entirely, but
1:57:05I I I think I thought she was away.
1:57:10Okay. Is that based on her schedule or
1:57:13or how would how would you know? Uh,
1:57:16well, my Yeah, cuz I fly with a
1:57:18squadron. I have access to the schedule
1:57:20and
1:57:22Okay. It's a slightly different schedule
1:57:23she has, but that's probably how I am.
1:57:27You don't know for sure.
1:57:31I think that's probably how I am. Okay.
1:57:35So, you go to her house
1:57:37and what do you do that night? The first
1:57:40night.
1:57:42I looked around and
1:57:47uh make sure that she was living there
1:57:51alone.
1:57:56And I'm sorry. Did you say I can't
1:57:58remember if you said how did you get in?
1:58:00Same same way. It's about side basement
1:58:04window. Side basement window. Okay. Do
1:58:06you remember what kind of window it is?
1:58:07Like what made it uh Well, I just
1:58:09noticed it was I don't know. the
1:58:11flashlight. I can see that it was not
1:58:13locked. It had been opened
1:58:15slightly. So, I removed the screen so
1:58:17that it open went in.
1:58:21Okay. So, you go in and uh you're in her
1:58:24house figuring out she lives alone and
1:58:27uh do you do anything that night?
1:58:33Yeah, I was playing with her
1:58:37uh underwear.
1:58:43You mean playing with her
1:58:48underwear? Wearing it.
1:58:52Okay. Doing anything else?
1:59:00No, I didn't touch her stuff.
1:59:08What do you mean you didn't touch her
1:59:09stuff? I mean, you touched her
1:59:10underwear, but Yeah. Yeah. Nothing else.
1:59:14Did you take any of the underwear with
1:59:16you that night?
1:59:18Yeah, a few pieces.
1:59:21Where did you find the underwear when
1:59:22you went in?
1:59:26Drawer.
1:59:29Was it clean? Was it used for clean?
1:59:33Yeah.
1:59:36Um, anything else you can remember doing
1:59:38that evening that you
1:59:41No.
1:59:43All
1:59:45right. So,
1:59:48um, after that first visit, did you
1:59:50return again before meeting up with her?
1:59:53No.
1:59:57Okay. So, which day did you go to her
2:00:00house when she was there?
2:00:07Well, the night before I went to Ottawa,
2:00:09so I think that was Monday night.
2:00:15Right. Um, so let's walk through that.
2:00:18But what time do you think you got
2:00:19there?
2:00:22About 11 or so. Probably 10:30 11. Okay.
2:00:32Yeah. So, she was on the phone in her
2:00:36room. I could hear that uh from the
2:00:41backyard. I got in through the uh side
2:00:44window.
2:00:46The same basement window. Mhm.
2:00:50How could you hear from the backyard?
2:00:51What was uh Just hear her on the
2:00:55phone from beside beside the house.
2:00:59Could hear through the walls that she
2:01:00was on the phone. Okay. Any idea who she
2:01:03was talking to or what she was talking
2:01:05about? No. Didn't hear that well.
2:01:08Okay. So, you go in through the basement
2:01:10window.
2:01:11And what are you wearing when this is
2:01:21happening? Sweatshirt
2:01:25and jockers, I
2:01:27guess. and the uh two pieces on my head.
2:01:33Okay. And where are those two pieces
2:01:36now? Pieces that you wore on the head.
2:01:42Uh they're probably in my bag in my
2:01:45luggage bag and Edison in the bedroom.
2:01:50What's your luggage bag look like? It's
2:01:53a
2:01:55blue duffel bag type thing.
2:01:58It's right beside the bed.
2:02:01Is it the only blue duffel bag in your
2:02:02bedroom? Mhm. Um, and these pieces, what
2:02:06do they look like again?
2:02:08It's a blue headband.
2:02:11Okay. Standard blue, you know, winter
2:02:15headband and
2:02:18black skull cap type thing. Any insignas
2:02:23or anything on them? Yeah, there are,
2:02:25but I don't know what they are. The blue
2:02:27headband has something
2:02:32stitched a name of some sort stitched on
2:02:35it. And the uh skull cap has some sort
2:02:39of emblem on white emblem on the black.
2:02:41Don't know what it is. Are they like
2:02:43sports emblems or company emblems or
2:02:47It's the manufacturers's.
2:02:51Okay. Anything else in that blue uh
2:02:54duffel bag?
2:02:57I think so.
2:02:59Is it full of of of things other than
2:03:01just just my clothes?
2:03:04Okay.
2:03:07Um, so you go in uh you remember what
2:03:10you had on your
2:03:13feet in the house there when you went to
2:03:17Marie France's house?
2:03:20Probably running
2:03:22shoes. There wasn't snow on the ground.
2:03:27So, you go in and you're in the
2:03:30basement and uh whereabouts in the
2:03:32basement are
2:03:37um by the furnace.
2:03:40Okay. And what are you doing? Like what
2:03:42what uh what's your what's your sort of
2:03:43plan at that point? I was waiting for
2:03:46her to go to bed.
2:03:48Okay. And how long did that take? Well,
2:03:52she did. Okay. And then she came down
2:03:54looking for the cat.
2:03:57All
2:03:59right. And uh what happens
2:04:02next? As I described, I subdued her gave
2:04:07her a flashlight.
2:04:17essentially wrestled her to the ground
2:04:19and tied her up.
2:04:25What did you use to tie her up?
2:04:28Same rope. Green
2:04:29rope. It's in tweed.
2:04:33Is it just green or like uh How long is
2:04:36this piece of rope?
2:04:39It's probably
2:04:40um 20 feet.
2:04:44It's It's a boat boat rope. It's got
2:04:46some red specks in it, I think.
2:04:50Okay. Is there lots of ropes in Tweet or
2:04:53is this probably the only rope?
2:04:57No, this uh there are two two lengths.
2:05:03Two lengths of the same green rope. And
2:05:06were they both used?
2:05:09Uh, well, I I only ever had one with me,
2:05:12so I don't know if I used the same piece
2:05:14both times or not, but only two lengths
2:05:17of rope. Okay. So, you tie her tie her
2:05:21up. How did you tie her up when you
2:05:23after you subdue?
2:05:25Okay. And what is she wearing at that
2:05:28point? She wasn't wearing anything to
2:05:30start with.
2:05:32So, when she came down to the basement,
2:05:34she had no clothes on. She had some sort
2:05:36of a shaw over her shoulder.
2:05:38Okay. She immediately dropped when she
2:05:41saw me.
2:05:43Did she say anything when she saw you?
2:05:47She did.
2:05:49She called out, "You bastard."
2:05:55Okay. And then what happened?
2:06:00Then I subdued her as I described by
2:06:03hitting her with that red flashlight.
2:06:06Okay. Although they were more
2:06:10glancing glancing blows cut her skin but
2:06:14weren't doing much else. Okay. She fell
2:06:17over and then I
2:06:19said she tripped. Okay. How did you tie
2:06:24her at that point? Like I know you used
2:06:26the rope, but what were what did you tie
2:06:28her up up like? Just told her to put her
2:06:31pulled her hands behind her back and
2:06:32just tied her wrists together. Okay.
2:06:37And then then what happened after that?
2:06:40Then I took her
2:06:47upstairs. Did she go upstairs under her
2:06:49own power or did you carry her? No, she
2:06:52passed out um on the stairs
2:06:57and then I carried her up.
2:07:02Why do you think she passed out?
2:07:05I expect
2:07:07uh from the heads to her head.
2:07:13So you carried up to where? To her
2:07:16bedroom. Put her on the bed.
2:07:19Okay. And then what happened?
2:07:32Uh well, As I described, I think
2:07:35I on the bed, I raped
2:07:39her over a period of
2:07:43time. Okay. And again, just to be
2:07:45specific, what what sex acts took place?
2:07:49Just vaginal.
2:07:52Your penis and her vagina? Yeah. Any
2:07:55condom use? No. Did you ejaculate? No.
2:08:01Did you ejaculate at any point with her?
2:08:03No.
2:08:06Okay.
2:08:09Um, just before I forget, you I think I
2:08:12asked
2:08:13you don't mean to bounce around on you
2:08:15here, Russ, but with Jessica, I asked
2:08:18you about ejaculation. You said you
2:08:19didn't at that point. When did you
2:08:21ejaculate with Jessica?
2:08:25um the second time or third time that I
2:08:29had
2:08:30her foral sex.
2:08:34And was that at her residence or yours?
2:08:37Hers. Okay. Any other times that you
2:08:40ejaculated with her?
2:08:44Okay.
2:08:46Um when you ejaculated with Jessica, did
2:08:49you use anything to clean up or
2:08:53No.
2:08:57What happened to the ejaculate?
2:09:01She swallowed it.
2:09:05Um, so getting back to Marie Fron. It's
2:09:08just straight vaginal sex. No condom, no
2:09:11ejaculation. Is that right? Yeah. Okay.
2:09:16Um, how long does that go
2:09:18for? Like how long were you engaged in
2:09:21that activity?
2:09:27Uh
2:09:30well, Hour and a half, two hours.
2:09:35Okay. And then what happens next?
2:09:42Well, as I described, I suffocated her
2:09:44using um duct tape.
2:09:51Why did you decide to to do that?
2:10:02Well, again, because of the
2:10:05pictures as I described to you, it would
2:10:08have it was going to be a pretty
2:10:10straight line back to tweak.
2:10:16Okay. But why why why did you decide to
2:10:18use that method versus something
2:10:32else? I had
2:10:36uh thought about strangling her earlier.
2:10:45That's on the video.
2:10:48What is
2:10:52my
2:10:55Well, it was a short short-lived attempt
2:10:58cuz she struggled quite a
2:11:02bit. Then
2:11:05I decided that I needed to suffocate
2:11:08her.
2:11:12So there was a shortlived attempt at
2:11:15strangler. And what's on the video? The
2:11:17suffocation or the
2:11:19strangling? Well, just me putting my
2:11:21hand on her
2:11:28throat and then her
2:11:32responding surprise very aggressively.
2:11:37Okay.
2:11:39any videos of the uh the suffocation
2:11:42part or pictures of that?
2:11:47Um, now you you mentioned that you
2:11:48brought the rope with you. Where did the
2:11:50duct tape come from? I brought it.
2:11:53Okay. And what did you do with it
2:11:55afterwards?
2:11:59I think it
2:12:01uh it stayed in tweet.
2:12:05What color of duct tape are we talking
2:12:07about? I know it comes in a variety of
2:12:08colors, but gray
2:12:11gray.
2:12:14Um, so before
2:12:17uh the suffocation, um, obviously, how
2:12:20long do you think you were with
2:12:22her from the point Well, how long do you
2:12:25think you were in that house from the
2:12:26point you went in that window to the
2:12:28point you left?
2:12:32Probably
2:12:34um, 4 hours.
2:12:37Okay. So, correct me if I'm wrong. Did
2:12:40you say you were got there at 11:00 or
2:12:44around 11? I think that's right.
2:12:48Okay. So, you left around 3:00 in the
2:12:51morning.
2:12:55Well, I was in the basement for quite a
2:12:57while before she came down. I She wasn't
2:13:01going to bed, so I was probably in the
2:13:03basement for 30, 40 minutes. Okay.
2:13:08So, by the
2:13:11time she saw me, it was probably closer
2:13:14to midnight.
2:13:17All right.
2:13:19Um, but I didn't have a watch on, so I'm
2:13:22not sure.
2:13:26Any gloves?
2:13:36I don't think so.
2:13:38Did you wear gloves with Jessica?
2:13:42Uh, only to get in the
2:13:44house. It's a very cold night.
2:13:49And what about the two women in uh in
2:13:51Tweed
2:13:55So while you're with Marie
2:13:58Frrawn, what kind of conversations are
2:14:00taking place? Anything in she said to
2:14:03you stick out in your mind? No, I taped
2:14:05her
2:14:06mouth. There's no conversation.
2:14:09Okay. When did you tape her mouth?
2:14:14As soon as I got her up to the bedroom.
2:14:16Why did you decide to do that?
2:14:18Because she was
2:14:24uh you know quite aggressive.
2:14:29In what way? I was confident she was uh
2:14:32would have screamed given the chance.
2:14:39What way? But she did initially. Did
2:14:41she? Okay. In the basement.
2:14:44So, in what way was she aggressive?
2:14:46Well, just in, you know, when she
2:14:50discovered me, she was very
2:14:52vocal, screamed quite a
2:14:56bit until I subdued her, so I expected
2:14:59she would scream again given the chance.
2:15:03Okay.
2:15:05Do you remember how you left her
2:15:07residence?
2:15:12Back door.
2:15:14patio door.
2:15:17Okay. Did you take anything with her
2:15:20that night?
2:15:22Some of her underwear.
2:15:25Anything else?
2:15:29All
2:15:29right. Um, did you do anything else to
2:15:33try and uh cover your tracks with me
2:15:36France?
2:15:46Um, well, I had turned off my Blackberry
2:15:49before I left
2:15:52Trenton. Other than that, no.
2:15:59Do you remember trying to destroy any
2:16:00kind of evidence there or anything you
2:16:02thought may have uh produced evidence or
2:16:05anything? Oh, I took her sheets off the
2:16:07bed and ran them through the laundry.
2:16:11Okay.
2:16:14Like the laundry where at in her house.
2:16:17Okay. Did you run them completely
2:16:18through? Did you wait for it to finish
2:16:20or? No, I just put them in and put a
2:16:23whole bunch of bleach in and let it go.
2:16:27Okay. So, the night you went to her
2:16:29house and got there at 11:00, you came
2:16:31from
2:16:33where? Like you said you left Trenton
2:16:36you turned off your
2:16:41Blackberry. Did you talking about the
2:16:43base or you talking about uh where did
2:16:45you leave to go to her house? Well no I
2:16:47just turned off my Blackberry before I
2:16:49left the Trenton
2:16:51area. Um I would have left from the base
2:16:54after work.
2:16:57All right. When did you turn when did
2:16:59you uh what time do you think you turned
2:17:01your Blackberry off?
2:17:06Well, it's only a half hour drive to
2:17:08Brighton,
2:17:12so probably in the 9 9:30 range. Okay.
2:17:17Do you remember what
2:17:19uh what time you would have turned it
2:17:21back on?
2:17:23When I was back on the 401 heading to
2:17:25Ottawa the next morning.
2:17:27What time would that have been?
2:17:29So, 6 plus or - 30 minutes.
2:17:33Okay. So, you leave her house 3ish?
2:17:37No, I think it was later than that. So,
2:17:39the 4 hours obviously
2:17:42was I think
2:17:45uh I think I went in about
2:17:4711:00. Was in the basement for quite a
2:17:50while. Probably left her house closer to
2:17:534 4:30 somewhere in there.
2:17:58Okay. And where do you go?
2:18:02Uh, I drove to Ottawa. Straight to
2:18:06Ottawa. Yeah. Did you go by your house
2:18:08and tweet or anything or did you just go
2:18:10straight? No. What route you took?
2:18:15Uh, yeah. 41. But from her place,
2:18:21uh, I think I went straight north on,
2:18:24uh, whatever the road is that goes
2:18:26straight through Brighton up to the 41.
2:18:27Hit the 41 and headed east.
2:18:31Okay.
2:18:33And so you're going to what's the
2:18:36meeting you're having that day in
2:18:38Ottawa? Remind me. It's a meeting on the
2:18:40C17 acquisition project. Okay. And who
2:18:43ran that meeting?
2:18:45The project manager, Miss uh Sue Hail.
2:18:50Okay.
2:18:52Is that the only meeting around that
2:18:53time period you would have went to on
2:18:54that issue was Sue Hail?
2:18:57There wasn't like a weekly meeting or
2:18:59anything like that. Okay. No, this is
2:19:01sort of a quarterly.
2:19:03All right.
2:19:04[Music]
2:19:06Um, so the night you went the night this
2:19:10happened, um, where did you park uh that
2:19:15night? As I said, across the gravel
2:19:18little roadway, probably it's probably
2:19:20the same road. Okay. Similar location to
2:19:23the first night.
2:19:25Yep. Okay.
2:19:27All right. Same same vehicle.
2:19:33Yeah. Truck.
2:19:36Okay. All right.
2:19:40Um Okay. Let's talk about uh the Well,
2:19:44seeing as we're going backwards in time
2:19:46here, why don't we talk about the second
2:19:47incident in Tweed
2:19:52um with Lori Masakotti.
2:19:56one. That's a a 76 Cozy Cove.
2:20:05How did you uh decide on her?
2:20:10I knew she lived
2:20:12alone. That's it. How did you know that?
2:20:19She lived three doors down and
2:20:23uh didn't know her but I knew she was
2:20:27pretty lone. She had boyfriend
2:20:29and hadn't seemed to be hadn't been
2:20:39around, you
2:20:41know, looked in the window and she was
2:20:44alone. Okay. So, she she had a
2:20:47boyfriend, but he wasn't too frequent.
2:20:50Okay. Well, he was she told me that they
2:20:52were fighting, so that's why he had been
2:20:56Okay. So,
2:21:02um did you look in her house before the
2:21:05night that this this incident happened
2:21:07or when did you do that? I had been
2:21:10in within a
2:21:13week, probably a couple of nights
2:21:15earlier.
2:21:17What did you do that night?
2:21:21I
2:21:24um I looked around to see if there are
2:21:27any permanent signs of her boyfriend. I
2:21:33guess took
2:21:36uh one or two pieces of
2:21:43underwear.
2:21:46So,
2:21:48okay. So, the night you go there, um
2:21:52when the incident happens, uh do you
2:21:54remember what time that was?
2:21:57It was pretty late. Um, I probably got
2:22:00into the house around midnight. She was
2:22:02asleep on the couch. Although I didn't
2:22:04know that, but I knew she was in there.
2:22:08And how'd you get in? Sorry. Uh, window
2:22:11in the back of the
2:22:13house. Was it a
2:22:15little sun room?
2:22:18Was it just something you had to slide
2:22:20or or how did you remove the screen and
2:22:23uh slide it up? Okay.
2:22:29So, I got into the house and
2:22:32uh she was asleep in front of the TV.
2:22:41Wearing anything on your face that
2:22:42night? Yep. Same things. Okay. The
2:22:46headband and the uh the cap.
2:22:49Okay.
2:22:51Um what kind of clothes did you have on?
2:22:56to start sweatshirt or pants.
2:23:01Right. So, she's asleep on the couch.
2:23:04You're in there and then what happens?
2:23:09We have been through this. I know. I
2:23:11struck her with the flashlight thinking
2:23:14it would knock her out. It didn't. We
2:23:16struggled. I subdued
2:23:18her, took some pictures, left. It's
2:23:22probably in the house
2:23:24about 2 and a half
2:23:29hours. That's a pretty short description
2:23:31for two and a half
2:23:34hours.
2:23:37Well, we talked.
2:23:44I told her I wasn't going to hurt her.
2:23:53I um I told her that there were other
2:23:57guys in the house robbing
2:24:00her. My job was just to control
2:24:12her. What did she say to
2:24:16that? She was scared.
2:24:22worried she was going to be seriously
2:24:24hurt.
2:24:27Did she say that or did you just assume
2:24:29that? No, no, she said that she
2:24:36was she was worried she was going to be
2:24:38killed. I said, "I'm not going to kill
2:24:43him." What did you do with
2:24:45uh You said you took pictures of her.
2:24:47Um, clothed, unclothed.
2:24:50Uh, both. Clothed Ashley and
2:24:54then unclothed.
2:25:00Are you in any of those pictures?
2:25:03I don't think so. You just took them of
2:25:06her.
2:25:07What kind of camera are you using, by
2:25:09the way? It's uh
2:25:13It's a digital uh sign.
2:25:16You just have the one camera. Yeah.
2:25:20And the video camera also. They're two
2:25:23separate. Yeah. Some cameras take take
2:25:26video, right? Um and where is the camera
2:25:29and the and the video camera
2:25:35tweed?
2:25:38Is it the only camera and video camera
2:25:40in that house?
2:25:42Yep.
2:25:44Okay. All right.
2:25:47Um, did you take pictures of her? And
2:25:50how do you end up
2:25:52leaving? Like you
2:25:54uh I just told her to
2:25:59uh I don't count or wait
2:26:03for number of minutes before
2:26:06uh before she called the police.
2:26:10Okay.
2:26:12And did you leave immediately or did you
2:26:13stay there for a while? I thought see
2:26:15what she was going to do or I left.
2:26:18Um, and where do you go? Home. Straight
2:26:22home.
2:26:24Did
2:26:25you Did you wait to see if the police
2:26:28showed up or anything or?
2:26:31No. I mean, it's So, what did you do
2:26:34when you got home? Couple hundred feet.
2:26:37I went to
2:26:39sleep.
2:26:40Okay. And what did you do the next day?
2:26:45wanted to work normal
2:26:47time. Okay. Couple hours
2:26:54later. All right.
2:26:58Um, do you remember how uh her clothing
2:27:02was
2:27:07removed? Uh, well, cuz her hands were
2:27:10tied behind her back, I think I cut off
2:27:11her top.
2:27:13and then pulled off her bottom. What did
2:27:16you use to cut her top?
2:27:23Um, I can't remember if it was a knife
2:27:25or like a folding X-Acto knife or
2:27:29Leatherman or one of the
2:27:32two. Are these items that are in your
2:27:34house in Tweet? Yep. Okay. Was there
2:27:39ever any other time you used a a knife
2:27:41to cut off clothing or anything else? Do
2:27:44you remember?
2:27:46I cut off Jessica's uh top with a knife.
2:27:50So her hands were tied behind her
2:27:53back. That's all. Okay. Where's that
2:27:56knife? Which knife did you use sometime?
2:27:58That was a Leatherman. That was Leather.
2:28:00Tweed. Is it the only Leatherman in in
2:28:03Tweet? Mhm. Okay.
2:28:07Um, so on the 16th of September,
2:28:11uh, when you went in that night, was
2:28:13that the first time you've been in her
2:28:14house? Yep.
2:28:17And why
2:28:19her just cuz I had seen her?
2:28:21And she was
2:28:25cute. That's
2:28:26it. Okay.
2:28:29So there was no um you didn't go into
2:28:33her house before that that night? No.
2:28:36All
2:28:37right. Um so you go in and how'd you get
2:28:41into her house?
2:28:45Side
2:28:46window. The
2:28:48uh was not
2:28:51locked. Cut the screen. Slid the window.
2:28:54Curled in.
2:28:56Okay.
2:28:58And uh what you're wearing?
2:29:02Same. Switch your dark pants.
2:29:05And the same hat
2:29:07and
2:29:09Okay.
2:29:12Uh and where do you find
2:29:14uh in bed? Sleep.
2:29:17Okay. And what do you
2:29:21do? Stood over her for a while and I u
2:29:24hit her on the left side of her head.
2:29:27just my
2:29:30hand. Just woke her up. you
2:29:38struggled, you know, just lay on
2:29:45her
2:29:47and very much like I described a little
2:29:50bit
2:29:51ago, took off
2:29:54her pulled her top
2:29:56down and took off her
2:29:59pants, took some pictures, left
2:30:03Do you remember her saying anything to
2:30:04you?
2:30:06Yes. What did she say to you?
2:30:09All kinds of things.
2:30:13Um, you know, she had
2:30:16a a young baby just uh next door, the
2:30:21other room, eight months or
2:30:24so. She's obviously concerned about the
2:30:28baby, concerned for herself. I assured
2:30:31her I was not going to hurt
2:30:34her
2:30:46physically. Um, any underwear taken from
2:30:50or Lori? Yep, both. And where would they
2:30:54be located?
2:30:56In Tweed.
2:31:03And why are they in Tweed as opposed to
2:31:05uh um Marie Frrawns and Jessica's
2:31:19underwear? Do you remember how much of
2:31:21their underwear you
2:31:23took?
2:31:31Um, not very much from
2:31:33Lori. Did they know that you took their
2:31:36underwear? I don't
2:31:38know. You didn't discuss it with them or
2:31:42anything?
2:31:45Um, so where and tweed would their
2:31:47underwear be?
2:31:57Um
2:32:04in the
2:32:06um it's a laundry room area.
2:32:10Okay. Just between the house and the
2:32:13garage, right?
2:32:22So, where in that laundry area would
2:32:24they be kept? There's a cupboard uh up
2:32:28top. They're in the duffel bag. What's
2:32:31the duffel bag look like? It's a green
2:32:34army duffel bag. Are they all in the
2:32:37same duffel bag? Is there anything else
2:32:39in that duffel bag?
2:32:43Just
2:32:45under. Okay.
2:32:54Um, when these when these pictures uh
2:32:59are looked at, um, you talked about
2:33:01being in Marie Fron's underwear on the
2:33:03first night you went in. Did you take
2:33:05photographs of that? Yep. What about
2:33:07anybody else's underwear?
2:33:10Yep. Photos of you in their underwear?
2:33:14Mhm. And where were those photos
2:33:21taken?
2:33:25Um, well, sometimes
2:33:34in in Maddie Fence's case in her house.
2:33:40The others in my house
2:33:44in tweet. Mhm.
2:33:46So, is this a matter you would take the
2:33:48underwear, go back and and then at some
2:33:51point put the underwear on and take
2:33:52pictures?
2:33:54What about Jessica's underwear?
2:34:01Uh,
2:34:02she's only her.
2:34:06So, you don't have pictures of you and
2:34:07her? No. Okay.
2:34:10All right.
2:34:14Um,
2:34:17okay. Well, I guess uh I just have a a
2:34:21couple of questions for you. I mean, I'm
2:34:23sure there's going to be more questions,
2:34:24but I guess what's on my mind right now,
2:34:26Russ, is um what made you decide to to
2:34:30tell me this tonight?
2:34:39mostly um to make my wife's life easier.
2:34:48Is what you told me tonight the truth?
2:34:52Yeah.
2:34:59How do you feel about what you've done?
2:35:01Like what
2:35:17disappointed.
2:35:22Let me ask you this. if
2:35:25um if this didn't come to the point it's
2:35:28at right
2:35:29now, if whatever reason you didn't end
2:35:31up on our on our radar, so to speak, uh
2:35:35do you think it would have happened
2:35:36again?
2:35:44I was hoping not, but I can't answer the
2:35:47question.
2:35:51Okay.
2:35:52Um, not too much here, Russ. Just a few
2:35:55details that I wanted to cover
2:35:58off and specifically dealing with Marie
2:36:01France.
2:36:03Um, in the basement of her house, uh,
2:36:07there's a hole in the uh,
2:36:10drywall. Do you recall how that
2:36:12happened?
2:36:14Whereabouts? Uh, I don't know
2:36:16specifically, but it's downstairs.
2:36:20I don't remember that. Okay.
2:36:23Do you remember doing anything with her
2:36:24in the basement uh where you may have
2:36:26used some clothing or something to uh to
2:36:29secure her?
2:36:31Yeah, I tied her up against one of the
2:36:33uh poles in the basement
2:36:38initially. I went outside and put the
2:36:41screen back on and secured the window.
2:36:45Okay. While she was tied to the pole.
2:36:47Yep. And what was your thinking behind
2:36:49doing that at that point?
2:36:52Just to cover up how I'd come in. Okay.
2:36:58Um, now by the time she's tied to that
2:37:00pole, is that in the very initial few
2:37:02minutes kind of thing of the
2:37:03confrontation or that was shortly after
2:37:06I subdued her and tied her, I guess.
2:37:08Okay. Does she have the duct tape on her
2:37:10mouth yet?
2:37:16I think probably okay pictures will show
2:37:19it.
2:37:21All right. Now, in the upstairs bathroom
2:37:24by her bedroom, there's
2:37:26uh looks like something's occurred in
2:37:28there. Do you remember that? Yep. What
2:37:31happened there? She had passed out on
2:37:34the bed. I had gone to look out the
2:37:36front window, see if anybody was coming.
2:37:40and
2:37:42uh she got up and closed the bedroom
2:37:45door and raced into the bathroom trying
2:37:47to uh get somebody's attention,
2:37:52but her mouth was taped and her hands
2:37:53were tied. Okay. What did you do as a
2:37:58result of that? Well, I just got in
2:38:01and subdued her again and got got her
2:38:04back into the
2:38:05bedroom. Didn't do anything. just regain
2:38:10control over. Okay. If I remember
2:38:12correctly, there's a bit there's a bit
2:38:14of blood in there. Do you know where
2:38:14that blood would have how that that
2:38:16would have occurred? All the blood was
2:38:18from the initial hits as I was trying to
2:38:22subdue her. Okay. Her skin breaking with
2:38:26the blows to her head. Okay. Do you
2:38:29recall blood being in the bathroom? No,
2:38:31actually. I didn't have a light on
2:38:33there,
2:38:33but it doesn't surprise me. Okay.
2:38:38Um, there's a pair of underwear and some
2:38:40socks on the floor of that bathroom that
2:38:43belong to her. Do you remember how they
2:38:46got there? Do you remember seeing it?
2:38:47See that?
2:38:49Okay. What do you recall doing to her
2:38:51breasts? It's pretty clear that there
2:38:53was some something happened to her
2:38:56breasts. Do you remember what that might
2:38:58have been? No, I I certainly touched her
2:39:01breasts. I didn't do anything to hurt
2:39:04them. I remember that. No. Okay.
2:39:08All right.
2:39:11Um, well, Russell, now when I suffocated
2:39:14her, she was on
2:39:16her her her front, so may have been
2:39:21something there, but what do you mean?
2:39:25Well, she was lying on the floor in the
2:39:26bedroom as I suffocated her and
2:39:28obviously struggled. May have been in
2:39:30the air that something happened, but I
2:39:32didn't do anything specifically to her
2:39:34breasts. Okay. So, when you suffocator,
2:39:37that's when you have the duct tape over
2:39:38mouth and nose and that's on the floor.
2:39:40Yeah. And um then what happens after
2:39:43that?
2:39:46Well, she died and I
2:39:50um and took the duct tape off her head
2:39:53and put her on the bed and covered her
2:39:56up with duvet.
2:39:59Okay. And what was your thinking behind
2:40:01doing that?
2:40:13Um, as you might expect here, Russ, uh,
2:40:17certainly, uh, even now, one of the
2:40:20Ottawa investigators mentioned to me
2:40:22that, um, there's a number of incidents
2:40:24that, uh, that have gone unsolved over
2:40:26the years.
2:40:30Can I, uh, I was gonna get into that.
2:40:32Can I go to the washroom quickly? Yeah,
2:40:34I can get somebody to take you to the
2:40:35washroom. Okay. Following the
2:40:36interrogation, Colonel Russell Williams
2:40:38led investigators to key evidence,
2:40:40including hidden caches of stolen
2:40:42lingerie, photographs, and the location
2:40:44where he had discarded the body of
2:40:46Jessica Lloyd. His full confession
2:40:48unraveled a double life that stunned the
2:40:50nation, a respected military commander
2:40:53who had secretly committed dozens of
2:40:55break-ins, sexual assaults, and two
2:40:57murders. Williams was arrested and
2:40:59charged with multiple offenses,
2:41:01including first-degree murder, sexual
2:41:04assault, and forcible confinement. In
2:41:06October 2010, he pleaded guilty to all
2:41:0988 charges against him. The court
2:41:11sentenced him to two life terms with no
2:41:13chance of parole for 25 years. He was
2:41:16stripped of his rank, his military
2:41:18awards were revoked, and his uniform was
2:41:20burned. Today, he remains incarcerated
2:41:22at Port Cardier Institution. If you
2:41:24found this video informative, please
2:41:26consider leaving a like and subscribing
2:41:28to the channel as it really helps
2:41:29support our work and allows us to
2:41:31continue covering important stories like
2:41:33this one. Thank you.

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