Respect with Nicole Avant | A Bit of Optimism with Simon Sinek: Episode 31 — Transcript

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1. 0:00[Music]
2. 0:06respect
3. 0:07is something more than aretha franklin
4. 0:09sang about
5. 0:11it's something we're all demanding these
6. 0:13days
7. 0:14but can we ever feel respected until we
8. 0:17can learn
9. 0:18to respect others i sat down with
10. 0:21documentary filmmaker
11. 0:23former u.s ambassador to the bahamas and
12. 0:25philanthropist
13. 0:26nicole avant to discuss the importance
14. 0:30of showing respect this
15. 0:33is a bit of optimism
16. 0:36[Music]
17. 0:39it really is such a pleasure to meet you
18. 0:41i've heard so many wonderful things
19. 0:43about you from some of our mutual
20. 0:44friends
21. 0:45i know i've heard the same and it's it's
22. 0:47about time that we've met
23. 0:48i know i know and i think it's funny
24. 0:50that we're meeting for the first time
25. 0:52like this like on a on a podcast
26. 0:55of course very okay wrong i i won most
27. 0:59talkative in the eighth grade for a
28. 1:01reason
29. 1:02is that a good idea to tell kids what
30. 1:04they're the most of
31. 1:05when they're young like is that it from
32. 1:07now on from the eighth grade that's your
33. 1:08identity you're the most talkative kid
34. 1:10i know it's not very good it's funny my
35. 1:13dad was not happy he said oh that means
36. 1:15you're talking too much in class that
37. 1:16means you're doing this and he took it
38. 1:18very in the negative and my teacher said
39. 1:20no we
40. 1:21we gave it to her because she can
41. 1:23converse with anyone
42. 1:24she converses with the athlete she
43. 1:26converses with the nerds
44. 1:28she talks to the science nerd so in that
45. 1:30way i thought oh i like that i'll take
46. 1:32that
47. 1:32so technically most conversant yes and
48. 1:35it actually gave me
49. 1:36uh when my teacher said that it gave me
50. 1:39a sense of
51. 1:40oh right i can't talk to anybody which
52. 1:42which then gave me a responsibility of
53. 1:45trying to find the common good in people
54. 1:47so it actually turned out to be a good
55. 1:48thing
56. 1:50you know i was very similar i wasn't
57. 1:51sort of in a clique
58. 1:53i was friends i guess if you really had
59. 1:55to force me into one i was probably in
60. 1:57the nerds but i was friends with
61. 1:58everybody i mean my friends in the
62. 1:59theater crowd and i had friends who were
63. 2:00jobs
64. 2:01and that sort of ability to go between
65. 2:05tribes has served me for my entire life
66. 2:08me too
67. 2:09and that's a really beautiful way to put
68. 2:10it which is because we are tribal as
69. 2:12humans
70. 2:13and to be able to navigate through each
71. 2:16tribe
72. 2:17and learn something about someone in
73. 2:19each tribe
74. 2:21helps you break down barriers i think i
75. 2:24mean it served me
76. 2:25for that purpose in my life and how i
77. 2:27moved forward in my life
78. 2:29i always thought oh i understand that
79. 2:30person yeah well i know what that
80. 2:32person's feeling only because
81. 2:34i had played in their sandbox for lack
82. 2:37of a better term of i just went to their
83. 2:39sandbox for a minute and understood
84. 2:41kind of how they behave and what they
85. 2:43think and what they believe and even if
86. 2:45it wasn't really aligned with me or i
87. 2:46didn't have a lot in common
88. 2:48at least i could say oh i've been there
89. 2:51this is interesting
90. 2:52i think that the solutions we find to
91. 2:54the challenges we have when we're kids
92. 2:56become our strengths as adults 100
93. 3:00one of the reason clicks and tribes
94. 3:01exist is they give
95. 3:04those in the tribe a sense of belonging
96. 3:06and psychological safety
97. 3:08um and and it helps give us an identity
98. 3:11right it helps us define who we are
99. 3:13and so what's your identity if you're
100. 3:16not if you're a member of no tribe
101. 3:18because you can understand them and be
102. 3:20with them but you're not really
103. 3:21love them and then you go to the next
104. 3:23one and you can understand with them so
105. 3:24for your ability to go between the
106. 3:26tribes and understand yes it served you
107. 3:28well
108. 3:29and it served you in your career and
109. 3:30your life but then the raises the
110. 3:33interesting question
111. 3:34where do you belong i always knew one
112. 3:36thing that wherever i go
113. 3:38you know because i try to tell my kids
114. 3:39this wherever you go there you are so
115. 3:41you need to
116. 3:42at least like yourself and i remember
117. 3:45thinking for some reason i knew at a
118. 3:47very young age
119. 3:48my purpose was to heal through
120. 3:50inspiration i don't know where i
121. 3:52got that from i don't know if it was me
122. 3:54moving in and out of different
123. 3:56pods or groups of tribes or something
124. 3:59like that i think i created my identity
125. 4:01out of being able to move around so much
126. 4:05and really realizing i can be a
127. 4:07connector of people and that's really
128. 4:09all i saw growing up people always ask
129. 4:11me which what's your
130. 4:12what's my purpose how do i find my
131. 4:13purpose i think everybody's purpose
132. 4:16is to search before we're operating at
133. 4:18our best yes
134. 4:20exactly if we're operating that's the
135. 4:22only deal
136. 4:23i think what's happening with a lot of
137. 4:25younger generations is that they've been
138. 4:28not given the opportunity to develop a
139. 4:30muscle
140. 4:32of resilience and you've got to go
141. 4:34through ups and downs and highs and lows
142. 4:35and you have to
143. 4:36figure out things and start over again
144. 4:38start stop start
145. 4:39stop and learn and when you cuddle
146. 4:43people too much any human being
147. 4:45i'm not judging anybody thank god i mean
148. 4:47i thank my mom now
149. 4:48every day for making me do things that i
150. 4:51was not
151. 4:52comfortable doing making me finish
152. 4:54things that i didn't like you know i
153. 4:56didn't like the violin after five times
154. 4:58my mom said well you've got six more
155. 4:59weeks
156. 5:00and then you don't have to do it again
157. 5:02but you have to finish i couldn't quit
158. 5:04my lessons until i just finished it's a
159. 5:06muscle that i've developed
160. 5:08over time that thank god that has
161. 5:11allowed me to
162. 5:13really look at the reality and give me
163. 5:15perspective
164. 5:16on things you talk about sort of the
165. 5:18over cuddled and much has been written
166. 5:20about this and uh you know
167. 5:21you and i are not the first to talk
168. 5:23about this for sure this generation
169. 5:25of young people who experienced
170. 5:28september 11th
171. 5:29and then went on to have kids and there
172. 5:31was this real
173. 5:32fear for our children for a new parent
174. 5:35uh
175. 5:35in that generation and the theory is you
176. 5:38know became
177. 5:38unbelievably overprotective and is there
178. 5:41an entire generation of kids now growing
179. 5:43up
180. 5:44without the grit necessary to really
181. 5:46thrive
182. 5:47in life and we see we see higher rates
183. 5:49of anxiety and depression
184. 5:51in a younger generation i mean you hear
185. 5:53these stories you know it's one thing
186. 5:54for a parent to call up and say why
187. 5:55didn't my kid get an a
188. 5:56at school we hear these stories of like
189. 5:5825 and 26 year olds of their parents
190. 6:00calling up and saying why didn't my kid
191. 6:01get a promotion
192. 6:03yes and like at some point when do we
193. 6:05let go and allow somebody to scrape
194. 6:07their knees
195. 6:07i was born in 1968 i am the first person
196. 6:11in my lineage in america
197. 6:12that was born with all my rights so it's
198. 6:15a long time
199. 6:16of people not having any right and my
200. 6:19father was born into segregation
201. 6:21born into jim crow had everything
202. 6:24against him
203. 6:25and saw the most atrocious things and
204. 6:28dealt with
205. 6:29um atrocities that no one should
206. 6:31experience i'm just talking about his
207. 6:32experience
208. 6:33this has happened around the world
209. 6:34obviously through centuries
210. 6:36but for me i think what's helped me is
211. 6:39i was so proud of my history whether it
212. 6:42was people in my family
213. 6:44or whether it was people that i read
214. 6:45about whether you know i always
215. 6:47mentioned ruby bridges or ernest green
216. 6:49who was part of the little rock nine
217. 6:50i'm trying to say my parents really gave
218. 6:53me all that
219. 6:54not to scare me and they didn't really
220. 6:56cuddle me but it reminded me
221. 6:58life can be both things it is great and
222. 7:01it is beautiful
223. 7:02and it can be tough and it can be mean
224. 7:04and you do have to scrape your knees and
225. 7:05people
226. 7:06aren't always going to like you and
227. 7:08people aren't going to treat you with
228. 7:09respect
229. 7:10and if you want to be great at something
230. 7:12you have to keep practicing
231. 7:14and someone's always going to out do you
232. 7:16someone's going to practice more
233. 7:18and so i think that by not allowing
234. 7:21a human being regardless of their child
235. 7:23when a human
236. 7:25fall or scrape their knee or be offended
237. 7:29or have something rude said to them it's
238. 7:31very detrimental to the human
239. 7:33soul to not have a tool
240. 7:36to respond your dad is the
241. 7:39personification
242. 7:40of grit yes i mean he came as you said
243. 7:43he came with
244. 7:44everything against him including the law
245. 7:47and then
246. 7:48rose up to be one of the most powerful
247. 7:50music executives in the business at a
248. 7:51time
249. 7:52when there were i mean he was he was the
250. 7:54first of many things he did there were
251. 7:56no
252. 7:57black music executives i mean he he was
253. 7:59it
254. 8:00yes with an eighth grade education which
255. 8:02is astonishing
256. 8:03and was able to give you a life that was
257. 8:05very different than the life he had
258. 8:08very different so you could have been
259. 8:10cuddled
260. 8:11oh yes i could have been cuddled and i
261. 8:13mean yes did i have nice things of
262. 8:15course
263. 8:16but always had a strong work ethic
264. 8:18because i always had to work and i've
265. 8:20done every type of job
266. 8:21like everybody else and i've gotten
267. 8:23fired from a few things i didn't know
268. 8:24what the hell i was doing but i but i
269. 8:26tried and i worked at it
270. 8:27yeah and i for my father it was you know
271. 8:31figure it out that's what my dad would
272. 8:32always say to me
273. 8:33you're wanting this easy path where it's
274. 8:35all smooth
275. 8:36and some roads are paved with rocks or
276. 8:40some roads are paved with pebbles and
277. 8:42some roads are paved with sand
278. 8:44you don't know when i was writing
279. 8:46leaders eat last
280. 8:47i was doing research into parenting and
281. 8:50you know the question is like how do we
282. 8:51become ourselves you know what role do
283. 8:53our parents play
284. 8:54yeah and the research was pretty clear
285. 8:57that
286. 8:57our parents actually are not solely
287. 8:59responsible for who we become you know
288. 9:01our friends and our teachers and our
289. 9:02experiences
290. 9:03they mold us into who we are you know
291. 9:04two parents doing the same thing and a
292. 9:05brother and a sister
293. 9:06turn out completely differently but the
294. 9:09one thing that every child
295. 9:11learns from their parents across
296. 9:12cultures is how to treat yourself and
297. 9:14how to treat others
298. 9:15100 every child gets that from your
299. 9:18parents
300. 9:18100 my friends would laugh at me we'd go
301. 9:21to clubs when we were in college and i
302. 9:23would always clean off the basin
303. 9:25at a club like the worst bathrooms you
304. 9:27could possibly find
305. 9:28and i'd clean my hands and then here i
306. 9:30was pulling down more
307. 9:32uh paper towels and cleaning down the
308. 9:35basin
309. 9:35and my father's looking at what are you
310. 9:37doing and i said well you have to leave
311. 9:39it clean for the next person
312. 9:41and they were looking at yeah but we're
313. 9:42in a club like no one cares someone's
314. 9:44going to vomit
315. 9:45but it doesn't matter but it was a habit
316. 9:47of
317. 9:48look out for the next person you know
318. 9:50holding the door open for somebody i
319. 9:51mean i remember my father
320. 9:53yelling at me over and i was so hurt by
321. 9:56it and i didn't do it on purpose but i
322. 9:58wasn't paying attention and i
323. 9:59i let the door slam on somebody coming
324. 10:02behind us in a restaurant
325. 10:04and you would have thought that i
326. 10:06created the most heinous act but
327. 10:07to my father it was pay attention
328. 10:10there's somebody
329. 10:11coming behind you there is a fellow
330. 10:13human being behind you
331. 10:15pay attention but this goes right back
332. 10:16to the where we started
333. 10:18in high school which is the ability to
334. 10:20go between
335. 10:22groups and be considerate of the fact
336. 10:24that there are different people who look
337. 10:25different and sound different
338. 10:27um and see people for who they are but
339. 10:29it raises the question
340. 10:31again which tribe do you
341. 10:34find safety yeah if you're the one
342. 10:37always thinking about other people
343. 10:39where can you just go
344. 10:42and somebody says it's okay you're
345. 10:44you're one of us we're we got you
346. 10:46like where where is that place for you
347. 10:48where is that place for you
348. 10:50so i definitely am a misfit and
349. 10:53i do well where the misfits go
350. 10:56so i love new york because new york is
351. 10:59the the
352. 11:00island of los toys the island of misfit
353. 11:02toys
354. 11:03you know it's like and i have a test
355. 11:05it's really funny when somebody first
356. 11:07moves to new york you know wherever
357. 11:08they're from
358. 11:09and they're all starry-eyed and like i
359. 11:11made it to new york i have i can ask
360. 11:13them
361. 11:13one question and 100 i'll find out if
362. 11:15they're going to survive or not
363. 11:17and the question is wherever you grew up
364. 11:19you know boise or chicago like wherever
365. 11:21you're from
366. 11:22were you the black sheep you know were
367. 11:24you the ones that people like didn't
368. 11:25really understand
369. 11:26or and they and they would look at me
370. 11:28like no i fit in fine i'm like you're
371. 11:30not gonna last
372. 11:31you're right right but if they go like
373. 11:33you know
374. 11:34yeah i never really fit in where i grew
375. 11:36up you know i grew up in
376. 11:37whatever place and i never felt like i
377. 11:40belonged i always felt like an outsider
378. 11:41i'm like you'll do just fine here
379. 11:44and that's sort of a funny thing so i
380. 11:45love hanging out with artists
381. 11:47they're some of my favorite people you
382. 11:49know and and i love subcultures
383. 11:52um and i find all these little
384. 11:53subcultures where you know a group of
385. 11:55people i like comic-con
386. 11:57you know that that sort of nerdy crew
387. 11:58all the people who are like
388. 12:00laughed at and made fun of because they
389. 12:01like to dress up as superman
390. 12:03not for halloween
391. 12:07and and all of a sudden you're amongst
392. 12:10all the same
393. 12:11weirdo misfits who've been made fun of
394. 12:13their whole life so i'm
395. 12:14good with the other misfits interesting
396. 12:18uh now that you say that i'm i love
397. 12:20living in new york by the way
398. 12:21it was the best time of my life and i
399. 12:24actually talked to
400. 12:25one of my best friends susannah the
401. 12:26other day and i said i was 24
402. 12:29and i felt like i could i was on top of
403. 12:31the world i felt that i was the smartest
404. 12:34at 24. and she said because you had an
405. 12:37unshakable
406. 12:38faith that everything was going to work
407. 12:40out i said i did she goes
408. 12:42unshakable you were in new york like
409. 12:44doesn't matter whatever happens this and
410. 12:45that but it's funny you
411. 12:46you ask that question now that i think
412. 12:48about it it's always with artists
413. 12:50yeah and mostly musicians because that's
414. 12:53my tribe of people that i understand the
415. 12:55most because
416. 12:57we could speak in silence you know i
417. 12:58grew up around musicians
418. 13:00i studied musicians i can sit with them
419. 13:04all day long i understand and even if we
420. 13:08don't say anything
421. 13:09i could sit there for hours and i feel
422. 13:11very safe and i
423. 13:12can let my guard down because musicians
424. 13:15i think and beautiful songwriters are
425. 13:17the most vulnerable
426. 13:18and i learned about life and i still
427. 13:20learn about life more through
428. 13:22music than anything else because there
429. 13:25are beautiful stories that allow my
430. 13:27imagination to see the person
431. 13:30they're talking about to feel the pain
432. 13:33that they're talking about to feel the
433. 13:35heartbreak to feel the joy
434. 13:37to feel the confusion and then what
435. 13:40musicians have always given me is a
436. 13:41sense of not being alone that's that
437. 13:43tribalism
438. 13:44yeah that made me feel oh someone does
439. 13:47know what i'm
440. 13:48feeling i don't want to call it
441. 13:49tribalism because tribalism has
442. 13:51pejorative
443. 13:51connotations that's that's the feeling
444. 13:54of being
445. 13:55in a tribe of finding finding your tribe
446. 13:57yeah yes
447. 13:58so it begs the question then how can
448. 14:00others
449. 14:01find their tribe because a lot of us you
450. 14:04know
451. 14:04sort of go through life feeling
452. 14:06uncomfortable or like we don't belong or
453. 14:07like we don't fit
454. 14:09and that's what every human being wants
455. 14:10it's a basic human
456. 14:12instinct we want to feel like we belong
457. 14:13we want to belong and we want to be seen
458. 14:16we want to be seen and we i mean
459. 14:18basically we want to be respected
460. 14:19seen heard and understood yeah i think
461. 14:22respect is the highest form of love
462. 14:24so everyone's like love your neighbor
463. 14:25it's really for me it's just
464. 14:27give somebody just their basic right of
465. 14:30respect
466. 14:31doesn't mean they're always going to
467. 14:32behave in the same way doesn't mean you
468. 14:34have to like people
469. 14:35doesn't mean any of that but at least
470. 14:37show up with
471. 14:38respect try to and we all fall from that
472. 14:41from time to time but the beauty is
473. 14:44if you have that baseline so to speak
474. 14:48even when you're off and you miss the
475. 14:50mark you'll know it
476. 14:51your spirit will tell you that wasn't
477. 14:53cool you were just so disrespectful
478. 14:55or so rude or uncut and you come right
479. 14:58back and then you're able to start over
480. 15:00because you're able to check your own
481. 15:01spirit this is very interesting i i want
482. 15:03to underscore this
483. 15:04when we are disrespectful we know it and
484. 15:07it immediately went to sort of an
485. 15:08extreme example
486. 15:09that i just learned very recently i i
487. 15:12was talking to dia khan the
488. 15:14documentarian
489. 15:15who made a remarkable documentary called
490. 15:18white right
491. 15:19she is a muslim woman who was trolled by
492. 15:22white supremacists
493. 15:23to the point where the police told her
494. 15:25stay away from open windows it got
495. 15:26really dangerous
496. 15:28wow and what she decided to do was move
497. 15:29to the united states
498. 15:31and spend time trying to get to know
499. 15:33white supremacists and giving the
500. 15:34giving them a safe space to feel heard
501. 15:36which is kind of a remarkable thing
502. 15:38and and she made this documentary where
503. 15:41she she shows it
504. 15:42but the story that's not in the
505. 15:44documentary that i just learned recently
506. 15:46was a number of the white supremacists
507. 15:49through getting to know dia dropped out
508. 15:51of the movement because
509. 15:52they started to trust her and view her
510. 15:54as a friend and one of them dropped out
511. 15:56of the movement after they saw her
512. 15:57documentary
513. 15:59and he called her up and said i'm i'm
514. 16:02leaving
515. 16:02the movement because i saw the movie and
516. 16:06that's not me
517. 16:08and she said did i unfairly represent
518. 16:10you
519. 16:11like did i depict you as you not are is
520. 16:13that what you say that's not me
521. 16:14he says no no you your documentary is
522. 16:17fine
523. 16:18he said i'm looking at myself the way
524. 16:20i'm speaking the way i'm acting that's
525. 16:22not me
526. 16:23that's not who i am so he was shown this
527. 16:26mirror
528. 16:27where he was displaying a lack of
529. 16:29respect where he viewed himself as a
530. 16:31highly respectful and he couldn't
531. 16:32reconcile that
532. 16:33and so the only recourse he could find
533. 16:35was to leave the movement but i find
534. 16:36that so interesting and so
535. 16:38again it's such an interesting point you
536. 16:40make which is we
537. 16:41know like we know when we're when we're
538. 16:44frustrated and short-tempered and we're
539. 16:46rude to the customer service agent on
540. 16:47the other side of the phone
541. 16:49yes we we know yes
542. 16:52some of us have the wherewithal to
543. 16:53apologize in the moment and sometimes we
544. 16:55hang up
545. 16:55and try and pretend that it they should
546. 16:58have done this for me and i'm the
547. 17:00you know but we know we know i think
548. 17:02that's such a fascinating
549. 17:04thing that that that people know when
550. 17:06they're being disrespectful
551. 17:07and you have to we have to be able to
552. 17:09get to the point to self-correct
553. 17:11so how do we do that nicole how do we do
554. 17:13that we live in a world
555. 17:14where the the conversation is how are
556. 17:16you treating me but the conversation is
557. 17:18not
558. 17:19how am i treating others exactly and i
559. 17:21think the focus
560. 17:22you know it's self-idolatry it's
561. 17:23ridiculous everyone's focused on the
562. 17:25self as opposed to looking outward
563. 17:28and we all belong to this one world
564. 17:30there's only one where are we going
565. 17:32anyway everyone's trying to get rid of
566. 17:33everybody where are you going
567. 17:35really where the hell are you going
568. 17:37where do you want everyone to go there's
569. 17:38one world
570. 17:39and i live by the golden rule right at
571. 17:42least that's my intention
572. 17:43right but you are going to err and you
573. 17:46will
574. 17:46you may not do it on purpose but you'll
575. 17:49lose your patience
576. 17:50you'll be short and you'll you're going
577. 17:52to have to reconcile with yourself and
578. 17:54at least
579. 17:55admit to yourself you know what that
580. 17:57wasn't cool
581. 17:59when i was thinking about what i want to
582. 18:00talk to you about you know i wanted to
583. 18:01talk to you about
584. 18:02how you find your tribe i wanted to talk
585. 18:04to you about identity and belonging
586. 18:05because your your story is such an
587. 18:07unusual one and your experiences i
588. 18:09i think very unique and
589. 18:12the more we talk the more i'm learning
590. 18:14what your perspective is
591. 18:16it's magical actually which is i'm
592. 18:18trying to get you to sort of talk about
593. 18:19identity and where you come from and
594. 18:21what your tribe is and what i'm hearing
595. 18:22is that you see yourself as a member of
596. 18:24the tribe called human being
597. 18:25yes and you express concern at this new
598. 18:30exaggerated it's not new but it's
599. 18:32definitely exaggerated in our time
600. 18:33us and them right and wrong and it leads
601. 18:37to this
602. 18:37terrible self-righteousness and this is
603. 18:39what i think the
604. 18:40the sides miss which is both sides think
605. 18:44they are
606. 18:44right the self-righteousness is
607. 18:47the problem i heard somebody say it's
608. 18:49really great he said
609. 18:50um he has to remind himself sometimes he
610. 18:52says i look at the mirror and i say to
611. 18:54myself
612. 18:54there is a throne there's somebody on it
613. 18:57and it's not
614. 18:58you you know and i i look at that
615. 19:02and i think we're all attacking each
616. 19:04other because everyone to your point
617. 19:06thinks that
618. 19:07they're right and their belief is the
619. 19:10only belief
620. 19:10their way is the only way and what that
621. 19:13says to other people is
622. 19:15your opinion doesn't matter your
623. 19:17feelings don't matter
624. 19:18you don't matter respecting you doesn't
625. 19:21matter
626. 19:22um honoring your soul doesn't matter
627. 19:25and those are all lies we've seen
628. 19:27throughout the beginning of time
629. 19:29that societies do well when
630. 19:32they're and that's what i think the
631. 19:34beauty of america is with all of its
632. 19:36faults and everything else the reason
633. 19:37we're
634. 19:38still the the beacon to everybody is at
635. 19:40least self-correct
636. 19:41at least you turn around and you make
637. 19:44things right and it takes a lot and i
638. 19:46think
639. 19:46this generation doesn't realize things
640. 19:49take
641. 19:50time oh that's that's that thing that
642. 19:52your friend said about you which is you
643. 19:54know you have this undying belief that
644. 19:55everything will work out and this
645. 19:56you just glow with optimism but i want
646. 19:59to know what the first step
647. 20:00is i agree with you i think it can and
648. 20:03will work out but
649. 20:04when a group of people storm the capital
650. 20:08and believe that they are right the next
651. 20:10day the self-righteousness
652. 20:11or somebody who uh spits on
653. 20:14a racist you know at a rally
654. 20:18the self-righteousness in that too that
655. 20:20i feel that i i did right
656. 20:22you know i i yelled at that person and
657. 20:25and and i go home and feel good about
658. 20:26myself
659. 20:27but it did very little to anything i'll
660. 20:29even go so far as to say nothing
661. 20:31to move the needle solve the problem or
662. 20:33bring humanity back together
663. 20:35yeah because it's never okay again going
664. 20:38back to that basic golden rule it's
665. 20:40never okay
666. 20:41ever to disrespect another soul
667. 20:45on purpose yeah we do it all the time
668. 20:47but not on purpose to hurt someone
669. 20:49physically
670. 20:50emotionally spiritually is
671. 20:53never okay so nicole avant what's the
672. 20:57first step
673. 20:58i think the first step is you have to
674. 21:00see the other person as
675. 21:02yourself how how do you do it i i
676. 21:04honestly look at everybody like this is
677. 21:06a human being who has the basic human
678. 21:08rights the same exact human rights
679. 21:10and the same 24 hours every day that i
680. 21:12do we are the same
681. 21:14we belong to the same tribe we belong to
682. 21:16the same race which is called the human
683. 21:18race that's where i start because we
684. 21:21live in a world right now where we're
685. 21:22starting to see each other as lesser
686. 21:24i know that that one group of people is
687. 21:26undeserving of dot dot dot
688. 21:28right and it's not true and it is a lie
689. 21:31you have to stand on truth we're all
690. 21:33stay everyone's standing on quicksand
691. 21:35you have to stand on concrete it is not
692. 21:39true though would you everyone says i i
693. 21:42was i was right i could spit in that
694. 21:43person's face i could spit in that cop's
695. 21:45face i could spit in that racist face
696. 21:47really is it okay if they spit in your
697. 21:49face
698. 21:49i don't think so but really but let me
699. 21:52play devil's advocate right
700. 21:53yes but they've been oppressing me for
701. 21:55years that it doesn't matter what
702. 21:58they've been doing because an eye for an
703. 22:00eye lose everyone blind
704. 22:01we all know that too again the idea of
705. 22:04being so self-righteous
706. 22:06to say well they hurt me so i can hurt
707. 22:09them
708. 22:09well they did this so i can do this no
709. 22:11you've just become that person so what's
710. 22:13the difference
711. 22:14you're the same yeah now you've become
712. 22:17them
713. 22:18and i think your example was great that
714. 22:20man who dropped out of the white
715. 22:21supremacist group
716. 22:22he didn't want to identify as that
717. 22:25person
718. 22:26i think for me what do i want to
719. 22:28identify as what type of human being
720. 22:31do i want to be to my fellow man
721. 22:34i i asked dia how she got the courage to
722. 22:37go
723. 22:38spend time with white supremacists and
724. 22:39give them a safe space to speak
725. 22:41you know to empty their bucket as she
726. 22:43calls it and
727. 22:45she said leading up to that moment it
728. 22:46was all about them
729. 22:48trying to convert them and convince them
730. 22:49and put them down you know and she went
731. 22:51to the rallies and yelled at people
732. 22:53and had that sense of self-righteousness
733. 22:55and she realized that she was
734. 22:56accomplishing nothing
735. 22:57except making herself feel better about
736. 22:59herself right and
737. 23:02she she said it was it was nothing about
738. 23:04them it became about her
739. 23:05which is she didn't go to see them to
740. 23:07convert them or change them or convince
741. 23:09them they were wrong
742. 23:10she went to see them because she it's
743. 23:12the kind of person she wanted to be
744. 23:14she realized that she wanted to be the
745. 23:17person who was capable of listening
746. 23:19and holding space and not trying to
747. 23:21convince them that they needed to be the
748. 23:22kind of people
749. 23:23to listen and hold space right i think
750. 23:25i've learned in my life and i'm sure you
751. 23:27have the more i listen
752. 23:29and i just let people go even if i
753. 23:31disagree with them completely
754. 23:33all right just let me hear you out just
755. 23:36you know
756. 23:36my dad was very good at that let me just
757. 23:38hear it out
758. 23:40and you might get one kernel of
759. 23:42something but the more and more
760. 23:44people start to become more and more
761. 23:45vulnerable
762. 23:47and and then a solution
763. 23:51usually comes out without you having to
764. 23:53do anything the person
765. 23:55changes on their own to your point this
766. 23:57man what's so interesting
767. 23:59what you're pointing to is that what we
768. 24:02are doing
769. 24:03is curating our own echo chambers where
770. 24:06we're making our own cnns and our own
771. 24:08fox news
772. 24:10where we are literally excluding people
773. 24:12from our friend group
774. 24:14who disagree with us or
775. 24:17don't share our exact point of view so
776. 24:20the only people we're surrounding
777. 24:21ourselves with are people reinforce
778. 24:23sometimes our worst tendencies and
779. 24:27and the question is how do you be
780. 24:28friends with someone that you could like
781. 24:30i have one friend in particular that i'm
782. 24:31thinking of
783. 24:32who she and i are on opposite sides of
784. 24:34the political spectrum
785. 24:36and we have very different opinions of
786. 24:38how the world works and should work
787. 24:40and i remember once we were walking
788. 24:43somewhere and we were
789. 24:44one of us brought something up and
790. 24:47she started to explain some of her
791. 24:49points of view
792. 24:51and i think i actually said the word i
793. 24:54definitely thought it but i think i
794. 24:56actually said how can you be so stupid
795. 24:59and she stopped and she didn't attack me
796. 25:02for my argument she attacked me for
797. 25:04calling her stupid
798. 25:05and i realized i just called my friend
799. 25:08stupid and completely
800. 25:10dismissed any opinion or point of view
801. 25:13she has
802. 25:14and i i took the first step to
803. 25:16destroying a friendship
804. 25:18because i loved her and she was good to
805. 25:19me and kind
806. 25:21you know and we realized that we could
807. 25:24piss each other off when we didn't
808. 25:25listen to each other and so i
809. 25:26learned from that friendship instead of
810. 25:28dismissing and walking away from the
811. 25:30friendship
812. 25:31i had to learn to
813. 25:34ask her questions with curiosity as to
814. 25:37how
815. 25:38she came to her point of view and why
816. 25:39that point of view matters to her
817. 25:41with genuine desire to understand and
818. 25:44what i learned was though we still
819. 25:46disagree on many things
820. 25:48we're always able to find a kernel
821. 25:51that we can agree on exactly and find
822. 25:54common ground
823. 25:55when we find that kernel we become very
824. 25:57interested in the other person's point
825. 25:58of view
826. 25:59to teach us not to convert the other
827. 26:01because if you think about it
828. 26:03when we surround ourselves with only
829. 26:04those who agree with us we create our
830. 26:06own echo chambers
831. 26:07right and that goes for almost
832. 26:09everything we follow the people we agree
833. 26:10with we watch the shows we agree with we
834. 26:11listen to podcasts we agree with right
835. 26:14and if that person says one thing we
836. 26:16disagree with
837. 26:17we unfollow right like i've actually had
838. 26:20it happen where i posted something on
839. 26:22instagram
840. 26:22and somebody wrote in the comments i've
841. 26:24loved your work for years i've read all
842. 26:26your books but i completely disagree
843. 26:28with this
844. 26:28i'm unfollowing you yeah when we
845. 26:31surround ourselves only with people who
846. 26:32agree with us we become
847. 26:34so sensitive to anything that is
848. 26:36dissonant
849. 26:38right where when we learn the skill
850. 26:42to include accept respect i love your
851. 26:45your your word respect what we actually
852. 26:48do
853. 26:48is we become better friends my dad now
854. 26:52if i go to his house if i go to my
855. 26:53parents house
856. 26:54he's flipping channels you know i gotta
857. 26:56watch cnn then i gotta watch fox and i
858. 26:57have to watch what everyone's saying
859. 26:59you have to listen and he will and he
860. 27:02gave me that which is you gotta listen
861. 27:04to what everyone's saying
862. 27:05you want to be able to say hmm i didn't
863. 27:07think about it that way
864. 27:09i never thought about that oh i
865. 27:11understand that you know
866. 27:12try and listen even if it's polar
867. 27:14opposite you know i think that was again
868. 27:16going back to the civil rights movement
869. 27:18and exactly what dr king did you know i
870. 27:19always say he was one of the best
871. 27:20strategists
872. 27:22i have ever ever been inspired by
873. 27:25he this whole idea of everyone thinks oh
874. 27:26non-violence oh which is love everybody
875. 27:28this was strategic
876. 27:30thought out process and
877. 27:34sending people to meet gandhi in india
878. 27:36so that they knew
879. 27:37bring this back we need that teaching
880. 27:39here this is going to be the ark this
881. 27:41non-violent movement that gandhi started
882. 27:44we can
883. 27:44now take that and bring it to black
884. 27:47americans here
885. 27:49and use that that was the driving force
886. 27:52do we think that dr king agreed with
887. 27:54everybody he tried to make deals with
888. 27:55all the time
889. 27:56obviously not do you think that him and
890. 27:58lbj just stopped there all the time and
891. 28:00oh yeah sure
892. 28:01no and yet they're there they're next to
893. 28:04each other it's back and forth and up
894. 28:06and down and around and about and you
895. 28:08know what but the results
896. 28:09we got it and to underscore the movement
897. 28:12the movement was bigger than the people
898. 28:15and the movements take
899. 28:16time movements take time
900. 28:20every single founding member of the
901. 28:22women's suffrage movement
902. 28:24had died before the first woman voted
903. 28:27i tell everybody i stand
904. 28:30on very brave strong courageous
905. 28:34shoulders now i'm sitting here on this
906. 28:37podcast with you
907. 28:38because there were people that
908. 28:41didn't quit because they knew that they
909. 28:43were planting seeds
910. 28:44and that one day something would sprout
911. 28:47and they will have
912. 28:48all these things that they are fighting
913. 28:51for and that sprout is me
914. 28:53and that's why i don't take my life for
915. 28:55granted i'm one step removed
916. 28:58from people that literally didn't have
917. 29:00any
918. 29:01rights at all and it takes time
919. 29:05my grandmother her mother her mother her
920. 29:08mother goes
921. 29:08all the way back and beatings and
922. 29:11lynchings
923. 29:12imagine living a life like this of not
924. 29:14looking up she said oh some days
925. 29:16i just walked home from work you know
926. 29:18which was god knows how many miles
927. 29:20because i didn't want to look up because
928. 29:22i didn't want to see
929. 29:24anybody that i knew hanging from a tree
930. 29:27and i thought what but
931. 29:30that was her reality at that time
932. 29:33and she never gave up she went to try
933. 29:36and vote
934. 29:37god knows how many times turned away
935. 29:39each time
936. 29:40laughed at each time spit on each time
937. 29:45and now for me that's why i look at
938. 29:47people like you have no right not to get
939. 29:49up and vote are you kidding me
940. 29:50it doesn't matter if you believe in this
941. 29:52get up and go and
942. 29:54vote for the simple
943. 29:57reason of just somebody actually
944. 29:59literally died for you to have this
945. 30:01right
946. 30:02and freedom is not free and freedom
947. 30:05takes time and laws take time
948. 30:08and work work it's like it's like any
949. 30:10relationship right you talk to the best
950. 30:12marriages
951. 30:13and you say what's your secret they say
952. 30:14it's it's a lot of work
953. 30:16it's a lot of work and all of this stuff
954. 30:18that we're talking about called humanity
955. 30:20and society and freedom all of these
956. 30:22things are not
957. 30:23prizes to be won they're relationships
958. 30:26to be managed
959. 30:27they all require huge amounts of work
960. 30:29all the time
961. 30:30you said the perfect point which is our
962. 30:32whole reason of being on this earth is
963. 30:33about human relationships
964. 30:35everyone has a relationship with each
965. 30:38other
966. 30:38and it's imperfect and messy
967. 30:41and human because life is messy and life
968. 30:44is beautiful it's always an
969. 30:46end you know and and and there's good
970. 30:48there's bad there's ugly there's
971. 30:50happiness there's sadness
972. 30:52it's all together but
973. 30:56that's what it is and there are
974. 30:58mountains and there are valleys and i'm
975. 31:00telling you the only time that my
976. 31:02character has ever been tested as yours
977. 31:04or anybody else's it's not on top of the
978. 31:06mountain
979. 31:06for christ's sake it's always in the
980. 31:08valley it's always in the weeds
981. 31:10and in the weeds is where you grow and
982. 31:12in the weeds is where you learn and in
983. 31:13the weeds is where you get hurt
984. 31:15and in the weeds is where you hurt
985. 31:17somebody and you learn or hopefully
986. 31:19and you grow and then when you get to
987. 31:21the mountaintop then that's the time to
988. 31:23pull people up
989. 31:24and that's the time to turn around and
990. 31:26look who else is climbing up the
991. 31:28mountain
992. 31:28and try to bring them along and i think
993. 31:30it's the human
994. 31:32process of life here's what i've learned
995. 31:34from you today
996. 31:35which is to think about human society
997. 31:38like recycling
998. 31:40which is you know when you take
999. 31:41something and you put it in the garbage
1000. 31:42and we literally say
1001. 31:43i'm going to throw this away where
1002. 31:45exactly is
1003. 31:46away it's like blowing the leaves from
1004. 31:49your yard onto your neighbor's yard
1005. 31:51look i've gotten rid of the leaves right
1006. 31:53and that's what we do with garbage i
1007. 31:55move it from here
1008. 31:56to there but it's still on the planet it
1009. 31:59hasn't gone anywhere
1010. 32:00right right we've just removed it from
1011. 32:03my site
1012. 32:04is basically where we remove this
1013. 32:05garbage from my site is actually more
1014. 32:06accurate
1015. 32:07right and this is the same with people
1016. 32:10you and you said it which is where
1017. 32:13exactly do you want them to go we want
1018. 32:15to get rid of all of these people
1019. 32:16where exactly are they going to go yeah
1020. 32:19you know which is it's all on the planet
1021. 32:21yeah the thing we have to do is learn to
1022. 32:23be with each other learn to take care of
1023. 32:25each other learn to use
1024. 32:27the talents and skills that each other
1025. 32:28have and it's not all pretty
1026. 32:30and it's not about changing them and
1027. 32:33converting
1028. 32:34them it's about who do we want to be
1029. 32:37what kind of person do
1030. 32:38i want to be and we're all so busy
1031. 32:41trying to
1032. 32:42hold on to our tribe and compare the
1033. 32:45value of
1034. 32:46my tribe to the value of your tribe and
1035. 32:48my tribe is more valuable than you're a
1036. 32:50tribe
1037. 32:51and to your point we're all a member of
1038. 32:53one tribe called the human race and we
1039. 32:56better take care of our tribe
1040. 32:57because otherwise we all live otherwise
1041. 33:00we all lose
1042. 33:01nicole i am proud to be in your tribe
1043. 33:03with you thank you i'm so happy to be in
1044. 33:05your tribe thank you so much
1045. 33:07so great if you enjoyed this podcast and
1046. 33:12you'd like to hear more
1047. 33:13please subscribe wherever you like to
1048. 33:14listen to podcasts
1049. 33:16until then take care of yourself take
1050. 33:19care of each other
1051. 33:25you