Rep. Waxman Questions Big Tobacco. — Transcript

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1. 0:00well I want you to know that uh I and
2. 0:03all my colleagues on this subcommittee
3. 0:05appreciate your being
4. 0:07here your participation in the
5. 0:10subcommittee's ongoing investigation
6. 0:12into tobacco is essential this is not
7. 0:15going to be however an easy day we have
8. 0:17a lot of substantive issues that we want
9. 0:19to go
10. 0:20into when we um hear about scientific
11. 0:24disputes we have to listen to One expert
12. 0:27versus
13. 0:28another but let me tell you there's some
14. 0:30things that we know about from our own
15. 0:32personal
16. 0:33experience I was a smoker and I know how
17. 0:36addicted I was to smoking I know how
18. 0:39hard it was to quit each and every time
19. 0:42I did try to quit and I had to do it a
20. 0:44number of times before I was successful
21. 0:47so from my own personal experience and
22. 0:49from people I've known and talked to
23. 0:51your Universal comment that cigarette
24. 0:54smoking is not addictive just doesn't
25. 0:57ring
26. 0:57true now Mr Johnson I want to start with
27. 1:01your testimony you and your colleagues
28. 1:03seem to have almost a fanatical
29. 1:05insistence your products the same as all
30. 1:07these other
31. 1:09products uh this morning in your written
32. 1:12statement and your oral statement you
33. 1:14compared cigarettes to coffee tea sweets
34. 1:17sugar warm milk cheese chocolate and
35. 1:20Twinkies that's quite a list I'm struck
36. 1:23but what I think is a calculated attempt
37. 1:27to trivialize the devastating Health imp
38. 1:29impacts of your product you and I both
39. 1:33know that Twinkies don't kill a single
40. 1:37American a year they may not add to a
41. 1:40healthy diet but they don't kill the
42. 1:42difference between cigarettes and
43. 1:43twinkies and the other products you
44. 1:45mentioned is death I'm sure you're aware
45. 1:48that the Surgeon General and the
46. 1:50American Medical Association estimate
47. 1:52that cigarettes kill over 400,000
48. 1:55smokers every year putting aside your uh
49. 2:00assertion that people accept this risk
50. 2:02willingly do you agree with this
51. 2:05estimate do I agree with the estimate of
52. 2:07435,000 people I've heard from this
53. 2:11committee this morning three or four
54. 2:13different uh three or four different
55. 2:15numbers my understanding of how that
56. 2:17number is if you don't agree with the
57. 2:19number then give us your number how many
58. 2:20smokers die each year from smoking cig I
59. 2:23will I will explain no I want your
60. 2:25answer we have a limited time I do not
61. 2:27know how many it's you disagree with the
62. 2:31surgeon general's opinion it is a
63. 2:33computer generated number that makes Mr
64. 2:35Johnson I'm going to have to ask you to
65. 2:37respond to my questions do you or do you
66. 2:40not agree with the surgeon general's
67. 2:41estimate of over 400,000 smokers dying I
68. 2:44do not agree
69. 2:46okay do you know how many die each year
70. 2:49I do not know how can you as a chief
71. 2:51executive officer of a company
72. 2:53manufacturing a product that's been
73. 2:56accused of killing so many people not
74. 2:58know this information how is
75. 3:02it I'm telling you that number is
76. 3:05generated by a computer and it makes two
77. 3:08important assumptions the first that
78. 3:10virtually everyone who smokes and dies
79. 3:13dies because they smoked unless they got
80. 3:16run over by a bus and second that model
81. 3:19allows people to die one 2 3 four times
82. 3:24I don't know how that can happen but
83. 3:26that's what that model does well I'm
84. 3:28struck by the overwhelming scient ific
85. 3:30agreement on the dangers of smoking the
86. 3:32US Public Health Service the Surgeon
87. 3:34General the Food and Drug Administration
88. 3:36the World Health Organization the
89. 3:38National Cancer Institute the American
90. 3:40Medical Association I guess all these
91. 3:42groups you would call the uh uh anti-
92. 3:45tobacco uh industry but they all say
93. 3:48it's hazardous the experts also agree
94. 3:50that smoking causes heart disease do you
95. 3:53agree that smoking causes heart disease
96. 3:55it may okay they agree that smoking
97. 3:59causes lung cancer do you agree it may
98. 4:02do you know whether it does I do not
99. 4:04know why not because all of that is uh
100. 4:08proprietary sta statistically generated
101. 4:12data it is
102. 4:15epidemiological as opposed to empirical
103. 4:17there have been no laboratory studies
104. 4:20which have been able to confirm any
105. 4:23statistic our colleague John Bryant said
106. 4:25in his opening statement his grandfather
107. 4:27who smoked all of his life died of lung
108. 4:29cancer do you you think that lung cancer
109. 4:30was caused by uh smoking I don't know Mr
110. 4:33chairman okay the medical experts agree
111. 4:35that smoking causes empyema do you
112. 4:38agree EMP it may they agree that smoking
113. 4:42causes bladder cancer stroke and low
114. 4:45birth weight do you agree it
115. 4:48may Mr Tish I want to move to you for a
116. 4:52moment in a deposition last year you
117. 4:55were asked whether cigarette smoking
118. 4:57causes cancer your answer was was quote
119. 5:00I don't believe so do you stand by that
120. 5:02answer today I do
121. 5:05sir do you understand how isolated you
122. 5:09are in that belief from the entire
123. 5:12scientific
124. 5:13Community I do
125. 5:16sir you're the head of a manufacturer of
126. 5:20a product that's been accused by the
127. 5:22overwhelming scientific
128. 5:24Community uh to um cause cancer you
129. 5:29don't know do you have an interest in
130. 5:31finding out I do sir yes and
131. 5:36um what have you done to pursue that
132. 5:38interest well we we have looked at the
133. 5:41data and the data uh that we have been
134. 5:43able to see is all been statistical data
135. 5:47that has not convinced me that uh uh
136. 5:50smoking causes
137. 5:54death um Mr Campbell you were also
138. 5:57deposed and you said quote to my my
139. 5:59knowledge it has not been proven that
140. 6:01cigarette smoking causes cancer this is
141. 6:04a rather passive and puzzling approach
142. 6:07especially in light of the
143. 6:09consensus not uh uh by some but all of
144. 6:14the scientific Community will you ever
145. 6:16be convinced and what evidence are you
146. 6:18waiting for and let's have the
147. 6:20microphone passed
148. 6:24over yes I may be convinced uh we don't
149. 6:27know what causes cancer in general right
150. 6:29now so uh I I think that we may find out
151. 6:32what causes cancer and we may find out
152. 6:35some relationship which has yet to be
153. 6:38proven well you know I must say this is
154. 6:40rather a a passive approach don't you
155. 6:44feel you have an obligation the same
156. 6:46obligation that every other consumer
157. 6:48company has to determine whether you're
158. 6:50causing harm and to take steps to
159. 6:53minimize that harm you're not meeting
160. 6:55that responsibility and it's clear your
161. 6:57views on the health impacts of
162. 6:59cigarettes
163. 7:00are out of step with an overwhelming
164. 7:01scientific evidence if all the medical
165. 7:04people who don't work for you say it
166. 7:06causes
167. 7:07cancer what more do you need to
168. 7:11understand that that's the case and to
169. 7:12accept it and then try to work
170. 7:14constructively to try to see if we can
171. 7:17avoid that terrible tragedy to so many
172. 7:20people is there a question sir that's a
173. 7:22question I I I'm sorry it was too long
174. 7:24for me to well I
175. 7:27think I think that um
176. 7:30the point I'm making is that all of you
177. 7:31have some responsibility not simply to
178. 7:33say you don't know even when the
179. 7:36overwhelming weight of scientific
180. 7:38evidence is against you I think you have
181. 7:40an obligation to know in my view at the
182. 7:43center of the entire debate over tobacco
183. 7:46is nicotine this ingredient in tobacco
184. 7:48has an enormous impact on humans at our
185. 7:52last hearing Mr Spears told the
186. 7:54subcommittee that nicotine is an
187. 7:56important flavor in contrast Dr k said
188. 8:00the taste of nicotine is actually bitter
189. 8:02and can be replicated through the
190. 8:04addition of Pepper Dr Kesler also told
191. 8:07the subcommittee that he was unaware of
192. 8:10any purpose for the inclusion of
193. 8:12nicotine in a tobacco product except for
194. 8:14its addictive effect yet Mr Spears
195. 8:17insisted to the subcommittee that
196. 8:19nicotine was a flavor I want to insert
197. 8:22in the record at this point a document
198. 8:24titled tobacco flavoring for smoking
199. 8:27products the document was published by
200. 8:29the RJ Reynolds tobacco company in
201. 8:331972 the document lists hundreds of
202. 8:35potential flavorings for tobacco and
203. 8:38rates them for smoke taste and smoke
204. 8:40Aroma but neither nicotine nor nicotine
205. 8:44sulfate is listed as an additive am I
206. 8:47missing something um Mr Johnson this was
207. 8:50RJ Reynolds why wasn't nicotine listed
208. 8:54as a tobacco
209. 8:55flavoring
210. 8:57uh or do you just I would I would want
211. 9:00to uh see the docu but document but I
212. 9:03think I can give you the general uh
213. 9:05answer to that um nicotine is is the
214. 9:09natural component of tobacco leaf and
215. 9:12therefore would not be an added
216. 9:15ingredient uh nicotine sulfate as
217. 9:17everyone here has testified is required
218. 9:21by the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and
219. 9:24Firearms in minuscule quantities that
220. 9:27was a it's not a flavor because it was
221. 9:29added that was a
222. 9:31document as I recall it uh that
223. 9:36addresses flavors and
224. 9:40Aromas so you submit then that it's not
225. 9:43listed as a flavor in your document
226. 9:46company's document because it's a
227. 9:47natural ingredient in the tobacco I
228. 9:50would have to look at that document
229. 9:52understand what its purpose and intent
230. 9:54is I'm trying to give you a generalized
231. 9:56answer to a to a publication 22 years
232. 10:01old okay well we're going to move on and
233. 10:03we'll get back to some of these issues
234. 10:05Mr blle