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Remembering the Holocaust: Anne Frank’s step-sister Eva Schloss — Transcript

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0:13Hello.
0:14My name is Jonah Albert and I'm a
0:16cultural event producer at the British
0:18Library. And I would like to welcome you
0:20to this special event to mark Holocaust
0:22Memorial Day.
0:24It is our pleasure to have Eva Schloss
0:27in conversation with Tim Robertson this
0:30evening.
0:32We would like to extend a warm welcome
0:33to those of you joining us from the
0:35Living Knowledge Network, a network of
0:37libraries across the country. But before
0:40we start, some housekeeping. Above me,
0:43you will see three tabs. You can use one
0:45of them to buy Eva's book,
0:49the other to donate to the British
0:51Library. The British Library is a
0:53charity.
0:54And the third to send us feedback,
0:57particularly on our virtual events.
1:00Below the video,
1:02you can see a form that will enable you
1:04to send questions which Eva will answer
1:07towards the end of the event.
1:09The event is being speech-to-text
1:11captioned. You can turn this on by
1:14clicking on the tab below the video.
1:19Please welcome Tim Robertson, who has
1:21been the chief executive of the Anne
1:23Frank Trust UK since 2018.
1:27His previous roles included director of
1:29the Royal Society of Literature and
1:31chief executive of Koestler Trust for
1:34arts in prison. He's also been a
1:36children's social worker in the London
1:38Borough of Camden. Ladies and gentlemen,
1:41please welcome Tim Robertson.
1:44Jonah, thank you very much indeed for
1:46that welcome. Um everybody watching,
1:49it's going to be my great honor this
1:51evening to introduce you to Eva Schloss.
1:54Um as Jonah said, I uh I'm the chief
1:56executive at the Anne Frank Trust UK. Uh
2:00and it's a real personal pleasure for me
2:02to be at the British Library again. I
2:03live just across the street on Judd
2:05Street, and I've had a long connection
2:06with the with the library in my previous
2:08role at the Royal Society of Literature,
2:11uh we set up an event partnership with
2:13the library, which is still flourishing.
2:14It's a great pleasure to be here.
2:17Um uh
2:18and the library also has some connection
2:20with Anne Frank. You may know that in
2:22the forecourt there is a tree planted in
2:25Anne Frank's memory, and there are no
2:27fewer than two statues of Anne Frank
2:30inside the library. Pray God for the day
2:32when we can all actually get into the
2:34building again. Uh both of them uh one
2:36in near the education center, one
2:38downstairs, both of them bronze statues
2:40of Anne Frank.
2:42Uh now, Anne Frank was
2:44uh and her family were Jewish refugees
2:48from Nazi Germany. And they fled in the
2:51mid-1930s to Holland, uh and only to
2:55find that Holland was invaded by the
2:58Nazis in 1940. And a couple of years
3:01after that, when anti-Semitism had
3:03completely taken over the society around
3:07them, they were forced into hiding. And
3:10they hid for with four other Jewish
3:13people, so uh um Anne and her parents
3:16and her sister. Uh for nearly two uh for
3:19over two years,
3:21uh the time in when Anne Frank was aged
3:2313 to 15, during which time she wrote a
3:26diary about her experiences.
3:30But the Franks were betrayed and
3:33deported by the Nazis to concentration
3:36camps, and all of them died apart from
3:40uh Anne's father, Otto.
3:43And they were among the 6 million Jewish
3:46people who were murdered by the Nazis in
3:49the Holocaust,
3:51uh along with millions of people others
3:54whom Nazis deemed to be unacceptable
3:58human beings.
4:00And the worst of those death camps where
4:04the the Nazis sent people was Auschwitz
4:07which was liberated by the Soviet Army
4:09on the 27th of January 1945
4:14and the 27th of January is the date that
4:16we mark as Holocaust Memorial Day
4:19which is actually in a couple of days
4:21time and in fact this year
4:23the the the the national event Holocaust
4:26Memorial Day run by the Holocaust
4:27Memorial Day Trust is open to all of us.
4:29You can go online to see that event if
4:32you want to and Holocaust Memorial Day
4:34Trust have asked for all of us to light
4:38a candle in our windows at 8:00 on
4:41Thursday evening to remember those who
4:43perished in the Holocaust and subsequent
4:46genocides.
4:48Anne Frank though after the war her
4:51diary was discovered and published and
4:53it's begun on in three ways to become
4:55quite astonishing culturally,
4:57politically and educationally.
4:59Culturally the most astonishing world
5:01phenomenon 36 million copies sold one of
5:04the most beloved books in the world
5:06radio programs, TV programs, films and
5:08astonishing array of different cultural
5:11manifestations. Politically an
5:13inspiration to JF Kennedy to Barack
5:15Obama to Nelson Mandela to Vaclav Havel
5:18to all kinds of liberal and liberating
5:22thinkers and leaders.
5:24And educationally and there are Anne
5:28Frank educational organizations all
5:30around the world and at the Anne Frank
5:31Trust UK we are the one that's the
5:33British branch and we take Anne Frank's
5:37story into schools across Britain and
5:40use that as a means to educate about all
5:45forms of prejudice and discrimination.
5:47We have workshops on anti-Semitism,
5:49homophobia, Islamophobia, sexism and and
5:52so on and now Anne Frank Young
5:54Ambassadors become amazing spokespeople
5:56for a fairer and more equal world.
5:59But they're always grounded in that
6:03knowledge of the Holocaust. Uh and we
6:07were founded by a survivor of the
6:10Holocaust, by Eva Schloss.
6:13And Eva's story, as you will hear this
6:16evening, intersects in various ways with
6:18Anne Frank's and is different in some
6:21other ways. Uh and um
6:24you uh Eva will is going to talk for
6:27about 40 minutes to tell her story.
6:30And uh she will then answer some
6:33questions, which you have on your
6:35screen, the details of how to submit
6:37your questions to us. Uh and if you want
6:40to know more about Eva, you'll see also
6:43that you can buy her book. She's written
6:44three books, actually, but uh the the
6:47the latest and uh and the the fullest of
6:49telling her story is called After
6:51Auschwitz.
6:53Uh and so it's my very great pleasure,
6:56as always, to welcome the co-founder and
6:59honorary president of the Anne Frank
7:01Trust UK, Eva Schloss. Eva.
7:05Where will you begin your story? I would
7:08imagine in your childhood
7:11in Vienna in the 1930s.
7:15Um well, good evening, everybody. Um
7:18it's an honor for me to be speaking in
7:20the British Library.
7:22And um yes, I have a big story,
7:25unfortunately rather sad. Um I actually
7:30usually start, like you say, in in
7:33Vienna, but as this is a different kind
7:36of talk because we remember the
7:39liberation of Auschwitz. And I am one of
7:43the very very few if at all anymore
7:46people who were there and have survived
7:50till this day. Um and so I really would
7:54like to start with sort of the end of
7:57this terrible part of my life.
8:01But it was the quite the end because you
8:02will hear in my story.
8:05Um it was February um um
8:10It was Sorry, it was January 1945.
8:14The camp Auschwitz had been partly
8:17evacuated already. Many many days Nazis
8:22took uh empty barracks in the men camp
8:25and the women's camp. I was actually in
8:27Birkenau. If you have ever been to those
8:30complexes of camps, so there were many
8:33many camp. So there Auschwitz main camp
8:36the big one, then was Birkenau which was
8:41um
8:42very very big but it was different. It
8:44was constructed just 1940 for more
8:49prisoners and it was very basic just
8:52wooden barracks with um
8:55barracks no furniture and no toilets and
8:58no water in it and um very very
9:01primitive quite different from Auschwitz
9:04which was proper brick buildings with um
9:08single bunks and as well washrooms and
9:12uh tables and cupboards where people
9:15could be their belongings.
9:17So um
9:19we realized it was winter. It was very
9:22very cold. The snow was perhaps a meter
9:26high
9:27and uh very often we walked without
9:29shoes. I had terrible frostbite on my
9:32feet I could hardly walk. I was at at
9:35time in a barrack together with my
9:37mother.
9:39Later I will tell you that wasn't always
9:41the case.
9:43And um
9:44we didn't know what was going on.
9:46Sometimes we were called to work,
9:48sometimes we were stayed in the
9:50barracks. It was chaos.
9:52And then one night the Nazis called out
9:55again. We were in the barrack trying to
9:57sleep and said, "Everybody out. We are
10:00going to leave the camp. We are going to
10:04march."
10:06And um
10:07so everybody got out of the barrack. My
10:09mother was very very weak. We stood in
10:12the cold, shivering, hardly with any
10:15clothes on. And then there was an air
10:18raid.
10:19The Russians obviously were near and
10:21were investigating this area.
10:24So um
10:26they said, "We are not marching. We
10:28can't walk marching in air raid." Back.
10:31And this was the whole night in and out,
10:33in and out.
10:35Um after about five, six attempt like
10:38this, my mother said, "I just can't get
10:41out anymore. We'll just stay. We take a
10:44chance on it."
10:46And I said, "Okay." I was as well
10:47exhausted. And we fell asleep, deep
10:51sleep.
10:52And in the morning we woke up
10:55and it was very very quiet.
10:58We went to look at outside. The camp was
11:01practically empty.
11:03There were about three, four barracks
11:05where there was still some people. And
11:08that was it.
11:10So the gates were open. We could have
11:13gone, but where are we going?
11:16The
11:17the population outside was not welcoming
11:20to us. We knew that.
11:22So there were some Polish
11:24prisoners who did go, but most people
11:27stayed.
11:29We were 10 days still on our own.
11:32And many, many people died.
11:35I was one of the few people with a
11:38Polish woman who had still the strength
11:41to take those dead bodies out and we
11:44just had to heap them up outside in the
11:47snow. We couldn't do anything else with
11:49them.
11:51And then one day again we were looking
11:53around see if we can find some bits of
11:55food on the ground and there stood a
11:58enormous creature
12:01um at the gate
12:02and it was the first Russian soldier
12:05coming to investigate. He came into the
12:09camp. He had no idea what he was going
12:11to find. Um again some Polish people
12:14could speak to him. He explained he was
12:17just a scout but the army will follow.
12:20He's going back to tell the army that
12:22there are no Nazis here anymore so that
12:24it is safe for them to advance. And this
12:27is what happened. Within the next day
12:30suddenly the Russians came with their
12:33field kitchen, with tanks, with horses
12:37and um stayed the night, put the field
12:40kitchen up and fed us.
12:42You can't imagine what this meant for
12:44us. We haven't had food um for many
12:48months even, just bits of peas, a bit of
12:51bread um but now hot, wonderful cabbage
12:54soup.
12:56And we And they gave us as much as we
12:58wanted and we ate and ate and ate. Um
13:02the soldiers were singing. It was you
13:05know, it was wonderful. We said, "Well,
13:06now it's the end. We will go probably
13:09home soon and everything will be good."
13:12But of course it wasn't at all like
13:13that.
13:14Um in the morning the Russians were
13:17gone.
13:19Um I sat the whole night on a bucket. My
13:22stomach food went just straight through
13:24me because I just couldn't digest it.
13:27And in the morning again, many people
13:30had died from overeating.
13:33So, we stayed again for a few days, and
13:36then I said to my mother, "Well, we
13:38can't stay like this. We'll all die.
13:41And I'm going to go to Auschwitz to the
13:43main camp to try to find my father and
13:46brother."
13:48So, there was a French girl. He said,
13:50"I'll come with you." So, we did.
13:53And it was about 3 mi. We went in the in
13:57the dark because there was still
13:59fighting around. We heard
14:01bullets flying around and shooting and
14:03all that.
14:04So, we went eventually we arrived in
14:07Auschwitz, and the Russians had made a
14:09headquarters there. So, it was more
14:11civilized with proper barracks like I
14:14told you.
14:15And um
14:16I asked permission if I can look in the
14:18barrack to try to find my father and
14:21brother. So, we were again um many
14:25barracks where we saw a few people
14:26sitting outside, standing, walking. They
14:30didn't know what to do, where to go.
14:32And um I looked all over the place, and
14:35then I saw a man standing there
14:38um very pale, very old, looking lost.
14:43And I went to him, and I said,
14:47"You look familiar to me."
14:49He said, "Yes, I'm Otto Frank, Anne's
14:52father. And you, I think you're Eva
14:54Geiringer, Anne's friend." I said, "Yes,
14:57yes."
14:58"Have you seen my girls? Have you seen
15:01my wife?"
15:02"No, I never saw them. Have you seen
15:04Heinz and my father?" because we knew
15:07them. He said, "Yes, they were here, but
15:10a few weeks ago they left with the Nazis
15:14when they were evacuating the camp."
15:17So, good news.
15:20Um
15:21the war can't last
15:23They'll be all right. So, I went back
15:25and fetched my mother and so we had to
15:28stay a few weeks in Auschwitz and then
15:31the Russians decided they wouldn't leave
15:33us there. They would take us eastward
15:36safe.
15:38And that is what happened. We traveled
15:41for 4 months with the Russians till May.
15:45Can you imagine? Still in cattle trucks
15:48the same. As it there the doors were
15:51left open a little bit. There was a
15:53stove there.
15:54Um, they gave us food. There were no
15:57toilets. So, when the train stopped we
16:00could go out and relieve ourselves.
16:05We went through different villages. We
16:08saw unbelievable devastation wherever we
16:11went. Um, the Germans had ruined
16:14everything. We went partly through
16:16Russia, sent to Romania and eventually
16:20in May
16:21So, from February till May we traveled
16:24this way
16:26and um, we ended up in Odessa.
16:29Um, we still had all these clothes which
16:32we had left Auschwitz with and the
16:34Russians gave us they gave us Russian
16:38uniforms. Um, I was very proud of this.
16:41Um, this was actually photographed after
16:45when we got back. But, um, this is what
16:49that is what it was. Very solid, very
16:51well made because a woman's uniform
16:54because there were a lot of women in the
16:56Russian army at the time.
16:59So, anyway, um,
17:01this is 27th of January that's how it
17:04started and it was not the end of the
17:07world and it was not the end of the war
17:10either.
17:12So, and then of course a long journey
17:14till eventually we got back to Amsterdam
17:17in June.
17:20And there we were very lucky. We were
17:22able to get into our apartment.
17:25But I just want to tell you something.
17:28Otto Frank was one of the survivors.
17:31And if he wouldn't have been survived
17:34like me at the time,
17:36the diary would never have been
17:38published.
17:40So, you know, this was really a
17:43wonderful for Otto to be surviving and
17:46be able to get the diary. And what he
17:49did with it was really another miracle.
17:52Well, I hope we'll have time to come to
17:54this
17:55towards the end of my story. So, I go
17:58back now to the beginning, Vienna,
18:01where um I was born in 1929
18:05in a very young, wonderful family. I had
18:09an older brother. We had grandparents,
18:12aunt, uncle, cousins. Um our family has
18:15been in Austria
18:17for generations.
18:19Um it was a beautiful country. And as
18:22well, um
18:24it used to be the one of the I think it
18:27was the most powerful empire in Europe
18:30for many, many, many years.
18:33The Austrian empire. But after the First
18:35World War, they lost most of those
18:39power, and Austria became a very, very
18:41small,
18:43simple country, quite poor.
18:46But nevertheless, the Kaiser invited
18:49from at invited from all this big
18:51empire, um artists, doctors, musicians,
18:55poets, painters. So, it was a very, very
18:59cultured, wonderful country. And
19:02beautiful with mountains and lakes.
19:04So, my father and me, we were the
19:06daredevils. We were always going in the
19:09mountain, doing dangerous excursions. My
19:12brother and my mother were anxiously
19:15waiting for that
19:17little restaurant in the neighborhood.
19:19Um, this is one of the pictures that we
19:23have few pictures of my father because
19:25my father usually took the pictures.
19:28But in this case, probably my brother
19:30took it.
19:31Um,
19:33so we were very, very happy. But all
19:36this changed in um March 1938.
19:41I just turned um
19:439 years old.
19:45Hans was 12 years old when without
19:48permission, without announcing, the
19:51Nazis marched into Austria and occupied
19:53the country.
19:55And we were amazed and shocked because
19:59even our friends stood in the street
20:02waving flag sticking up swastika flags
20:05and with a heil Hitler's salute.
20:07My first experience of anti-Semitism
20:11after school, I went um to my best
20:15friend who was a Catholic girl.
20:17And um when the mother saw me, she said,
20:21"We never want to see you here again."
20:23And she slammed the door in my face.
20:26I went home crying. I said to my mother,
20:30"We didn't have a quarrel. What is the
20:32matter?" My mother said, "Well, for
20:34Jewish people, life is going to be very
20:37hard and very difficult."
20:40My brother came home from school, 12
20:42years old. His clothes were torn. His
20:46face was covered in blood.
20:48And when my parents asked, "Hans, what
20:51happened to you?"
20:52He said, "My friends did that. And the
20:55teachers
20:57watched it happening." Can you imagine?
21:01So my father, who had inherited a shoe
21:05factory from his father,
21:07and had connections with Holland because
21:10there was a big shoe industry in the
21:11south of Holland.
21:14Immediately left. That was still
21:17possible.
21:18But of course, to our whole family
21:21couldn't really leave. He said, "I will
21:23try to find accommodation and then
21:25hopefully you can all follow."
21:28But by that time, that was 1938,
21:31already many countries had taken in
21:34refugees from Germany.
21:36But so in '38, it was very difficult,
21:40practically impossible, unless you were
21:43a very famous person. England, America
21:46accepted famous people, but ordinary
21:49people they just didn't give any visas
21:52to those people.
21:54So, we couldn't go.
21:57So, um eventually we heard we could go
22:00illegally to Belgium.
22:02So, that's what we did and we ended up
22:05in Brussels in 1939.
22:08My father still lived in South Holland
22:11and so he came to visit us weekends.
22:15And um
22:16but in the meantime Hitler went into
22:19Czechoslovakia and Poland and the war
22:22started, 1940.
22:24And my father tried desperate to get a
22:27visa for us to come to the Netherlands.
22:30Eventually, in February 1940, during the
22:35war, we got a visa for 3 months to visit
22:39my father in Holland.
22:42And we moved to a big square um
22:45I have no idea if I have a photo of
22:47this, but it is well known because other
22:50refugees lived there and one of them was
22:53a Frank family.
22:55And we were both 11 years old at the
22:57time and if you live in apartment, there
23:00were no gardens to play, so all the
23:03children played in the street.
23:06So one day a little girl came to me,
23:09introduced herself.
23:11Her name was Anne Frank.
23:14And she took me right away up to her
23:17apartment because she couldn't speak
23:18German anymore as she was 4 years old
23:21when she came to Holland and she
23:23introduced me to her dad
23:26who could speak German to me. And I
23:29right away
23:31liked him. He was a a man
23:34mind that's the time an elderly
23:36gentleman because my father was
23:39just 40 and Otto was already in the 50s.
23:43But very very kind. He spoke German Mimi
23:46said anytime you want to come and have a
23:49conversation with me, just tell Anne and
23:52we'll be friends.
23:53So that was all very nice. We settled
23:57down. When I told Anne I had an older
23:59brother
24:00she said, "Oh, where can I come and meet
24:02him?" Because already was 11, she really
24:06liked boys.
24:08So nothing came of this actually.
24:11But anyway, we were very happy in
24:13Amsterdam. My brother, he got had a
24:15guitar in this furnished apartment was a
24:19piano. He right away started to
24:22play again and life seemed good again
24:26and the Dutch were very welcoming. We
24:29enjoyed life. That is on the steps where
24:32we went into the apartment in the
24:34Merwedeplein.
24:35And
24:36yeah, we we were happy but very short
24:40because in May the Germans invaded
24:43Holland as well.
24:45I won't go too much into that. It was a
24:47short war, 5 days and the Dutch
24:50capitulated
24:52and we tried still to escape but there
24:54was no chance and we were occupied.
24:57Occupation, the first year was not too
25:00bad, but the second year in 1941,
25:03it became already very, very bad for
25:06Jewish people.
25:08We had to wear the yellow star. We had
25:11many restrictions.
25:13Um
25:14we had to give in the bicycle. We were
25:16not allowed to have a radio. We had to
25:18be in at 8:00, and people started to
25:22disappear.
25:23So, it was very scary.
25:25Then we had to leave our school and go
25:28into Jewish schools, which by itself,
25:31nothing wrong with that.
25:33But again, the Nazis wanted to kill the
25:35young people first, so they went into
25:38the schools with trucks
25:40and told the children to go on the
25:42truck,
25:44and the parents waited in the afternoon
25:47for the children to come home, and they
25:49didn't turn up.
25:51So, they went to the police.
25:54No answer.
25:55And
25:56the children were never, ever seen
25:58again.
26:00Only after the war, we heard that they
26:03were sent to Mauthausen, a terrible
26:05Austrian death camp,
26:07and just thrown down from the cliffs.
26:11The Dutch have a big, beautiful monument
26:13there for all those hundreds of
26:17young Dutch people and also well refugee
26:20children who perished there.
26:23Quite early in the war, really.
26:27And um so, life went on, and then um in
26:311942,
26:33about 10,000 youngsters between the age
26:36of 16 and 20 and 20, 25, 26 got the
26:42call-up notice to be deported to
26:44Germany.
26:45That was for Hans Schott said and Margot
26:48Annes' older sister.
26:51And that was the time when both parents
26:54and many, many other parents decided we
26:57would go into hiding.
26:59So, my father called us together and
27:02said, "Hans, you're not going.
27:05I found some wonderful Dutch people who
27:08are willing to keep us staying with them
27:11as long as the war lasts and to keep us
27:14safe.
27:15But, you know, the apartments are quite
27:17small.
27:19I I couldn't I would find uh
27:22people who were going to take in four
27:24people. So, we have to split up.
27:27And um I will go with mother and um
27:31um Hans will go with my baby, my father
27:34said. And I started to cry. I didn't
27:37want to be separated.
27:39And my father explained,
27:42"If we are in two different places,
27:45the chance that two of us will survive
27:49is bigger."
27:51survive.
27:54That was the first time that I realized
27:57it might be a matter of life and death.
28:00And that is pretty scary.
28:03Well, Hans, being so
28:06gentle and so sensitive,
28:09he was
28:10very afraid of dying and he asked Poppy,
28:15"Um
28:16I'm afraid of dying. What will happen
28:18when we die?"
28:20And my father said, "Well, this is what
28:22happens. We all have to die.
28:25But um
28:27you know,
28:28if you have children, you will live on
28:30in your children."
28:32And then Hans said, "But what if I die
28:35before I have any children?"
28:37And my father thought for a moment
28:40and he said,
28:41"Well, whatever you've done in your
28:44life, even a short life,
28:47somebody will remember because we all in
28:50a um
28:51link in a big chain which goes from
28:54generation to generation and nothing get
28:57lost. So, you won't be forgotten.
29:01Well, that is what we had to accept.
29:04And me, too, of course.
29:07And um so, then we went into hiding. We
29:10were 2 years in hiding with different
29:12people. I won't tell you too much about
29:15it because time is running out. There's
29:17so much to tell. And um after 2 years,
29:21we were betrayed
29:23by a Dutch nurse who was a double agent.
29:26She pretended she worked for the
29:28resistance, but she was really working
29:30for the Nazis.
29:32It was in um
29:3411th of May, 1944,
29:37my 11th my 15th birthday.
29:40And um we were taken away.
29:43Um so, we were to different places. It's
29:46a complicated story. They can't go into
29:48details, but anyway, we were both
29:51betrayed and sent to Westerbork and put
29:54on transport. So, of course, they never
29:57told you what is going to happen to you.
29:59So, we had no idea where we were going.
30:02It could have been a work camp, could
30:05have been a death camp, could have been
30:07in Poland, in Germany. We had no idea.
30:11Um you know, of course, it were cattle
30:13trucks, terrible transportation, about
30:1680 people, um two buckets, one for
30:20toilets, one for clean water.
30:22Um once a day, we got chunks of bread
30:25thrown in like you would feed wild
30:28animals.
30:29So, terrible.
30:31But, it was probably the last
30:33conversation I had with Heinz. He told
30:36me, because in hiding, he started to
30:39paint
30:41and write poetry. He said before the
30:44escaped from this woman who black was
30:47that's a long story black made him um he
30:50hid the
30:51paintings under the floorboard with a
30:53note on it this belongs to Hans Kalinger
30:56and after the war I'm going to pick it
30:58up again.
31:00And then he said, "Eva, if I don't make
31:03it, please
31:05go and pick the paintings up because
31:07they are really very very nice. You will
31:09be amazed what I've created."
31:13So and then we arrived in Auschwitz
31:16first selection
31:18men and women to different sides so this
31:21is when we had to say goodbye.
31:24Which you can imagine was a very very
31:26emotional thing.
31:28And then the women um
31:30standing rows of five and Mengele came
31:34looked you over in a fraction of a
31:36second he decided life or death right or
31:40left.
31:41Eva, could you just explain Mengele?
31:43Just explain who he was, would you?
31:46Mengele was officially uh
31:50medical doctor
31:52and um
31:53he was supposed to look after the ill
31:56people because was he wasn't so was in
31:59Birkenau a big barrack which was the
32:02hospital
32:03and he people if they were ill because
32:06within days people got typhus dysentery
32:11because the water which we got was
32:13unclean.
32:15So you can imagine in the fields and as
32:18I said in our barracks
32:20um there was no washing facilities so
32:22forget about washing. We were full of
32:25lice but first of course the people who
32:28were
32:29still not going to be killed went into a
32:32huge huge barracks. The next thing was
32:35undressed completely naked. We were
32:38shaved, we were tattooed.
32:40Um we had to register what job we had,
32:43what
32:44old we were, from which country we came,
32:47all kind of thing. They took many, many,
32:49many hours and we stood there naked,
32:53shivering so it was hot.
32:55And um
32:57not knowing what's going to happen to
32:59us. And while this happened, they told
33:02us with lots of pleasure the people who
33:05had been selected, all the people and of
33:08course all the children, they were about
33:11I think 46 children in our transport and
33:16that was researched later and only six
33:19of those survived.
33:21And I was one of the six.
33:24So um they told us the family that
33:28you've been separated from went for a
33:31shower and then they started to laugh
33:33and pushing it so hard.
33:35Um
33:36but of course it wasn't a shower.
33:39They were gassed.
33:41Can you imagine a mother who had been
33:44just separated from her child how she
33:46felt?
33:48So people started to cry and to scream
33:50and it was awful. And then eventually we
33:53were let out still naked and we marched
33:57to a heap of a mountain of clothes and
34:00we got one garment. Could have been a
34:02winter coat or a dress or no underwear,
34:06nothing. And the next heap were shoes,
34:08two shoes,
34:09a boot and a slipper, whatever.
34:12And that was all our belonging.
34:15We worked from morning to night. We got
34:18only in the morning a little bit of
34:21liquid, in the evening a chunk of bread.
34:25We were full of lice.
34:27Um
34:29we worked very, very hard. People
34:32collapsed. Where we were, 10 sleeping in
34:35a bunk on the on wood. There was
34:38nothing, no blanket, no straw, no
34:40pillow, nothing.
34:42And um
34:44very often um
34:46you wanted to keep your bread for the
34:48next day, so you put it under your head
34:50to sleep on.
34:52And very often in the morning the people
34:54slept next to you had eaten it away from
34:57under you.
34:59So, very often we woke up and the person
35:03next to you
35:04was had died in the night.
35:08So, the condition were unbearable. Many,
35:11many, many people died all the time. And
35:14then it became kind of autumn, very,
35:17very cold. And um once a week we had a
35:21shower and we were deloused because we
35:24were full of lice.
35:25And um
35:27when we came out
35:29um Mengele stood there, still naked, and
35:33we had to parade in front of him. And he
35:37decided who was still able to work or
35:40who wasn't. And I passed, my mother
35:43followed.
35:44And he she was like any mother, she had
35:48very often shared her little bit of
35:50bread with me.
35:52And she was very thin, didn't look too
35:55good. And he with 40 other Dutch women
35:59from our transport
36:01was selected to be killed.
36:04So, these women marched out naked and
36:09I thought I will never ever see my
36:11mother again.
36:14So, this was for me the worst moment in
36:16the camp.
36:18Um it became winter. I had um snow was
36:22high. I had very often lost my shoes. I
36:26had frostbite my feet, could hardly walk
36:29anymore.
36:30And then I must admit I was on the point
36:33of giving up. I said, "My mother is not
36:36alive, I have no idea if my father and
36:38Hans is alive. What on earth should I do
36:41alone if I should survive?" I was
36:43desperate. And I was starving and ill
36:47and and many people from the Dutch
36:49transport had already That was already
36:52the time when the Germans had started to
36:54evacuate the camp.
36:57So, and I sat at my work and I was
37:00called out by a couple.
37:03And I thought, "Well, now they want to
37:04kill me." And I go out and there stood
37:08my father.
37:09Unbelievable.
37:11Never happened to anybody that a man
37:13came in to ask for a family member. He
37:17came with his SS boss.
37:19My father was a big charmer, you know,
37:22he was
37:23um he obviously he told me he works in a
37:26timber factory and he's done very well,
37:30so he was respected by the Nazis. So,
37:33obviously he got this privilege to
37:36to but how they could find me where they
37:38were they had actually a amazing
37:41administration. But still, but of course
37:45it was wonderful. But the next question
37:48of my father was, "Where is Mutti?"
37:52And I burst into tears and I told him
37:55she had been selected to his guest.
37:59Well, this strong man who never gave in
38:02to anything
38:03started tears were rolling down his down
38:06his eyes.
38:07And he said,
38:10Well, first he was speechless but then
38:12he said,
38:13"The war will soon be over. Oh, what
38:15Hans is okay. Please, please hold on.
38:18We'll be together still."
38:21And then I never saw him anymore.
38:25And then another miracle happened
38:28because this is what I have to point
38:30out. There were many, many miracles.
38:32Otherwise I wouldn't sit here.
38:35Um
38:37So obviously I told you the Germans
38:39started to leave already. There was not
38:41no organization very often. There was no
38:43work.
38:45And um so I walked around not knowing
38:47see if I find a bit of food perhaps on
38:49the ground.
38:51And um I saw some Dutch people from our
38:54transport coming from another part of
38:56the camp.
38:57And they said to me they've seen my
38:59mother.
39:00Of course I didn't believe it.
39:02But it was true.
39:04And that is of course a long story. My
39:06mother actually write it herself in my
39:09first book Eva's story.
39:12She was saved
39:13and brought back to the living. And um
39:17she was still alive.
39:19And so eventually I was able to
39:22go to the same barrack where she was
39:25because I said there was not much
39:27supervision anymore. And so that is I go
39:30back now to the beginning of
39:32um
39:3327th of January. That's what happened
39:35then when the Russians came.
39:38And um as I say Otto was with us. And
39:41then we were in Odessa. Then eventually
39:45we
39:46celebrated the end of the war
39:498th of May.
39:50And then what now? We're in the middle
39:52of Russia in Odessa.
39:55How do we get back?
39:56But it was all organized. Um there was a
40:00New Zealand troop transport ship came
40:03and it brought us back to Marseille and
40:06then up to Holland and eventually in
40:08June we got back to Amsterdam again.
40:14And
40:15what now?
40:16We didn't know where to go.
40:18And they didn't look after us. It just
40:21dropped us there and that was it. The
40:23first time after so long, we had to look
40:25after ourselves. So, my mother said,
40:28"Well, let's just go in the tram and
40:30let's go to um friends who was a mixed
40:34marriage. Perhaps they're still there."
40:37The husband was a Jew and his wife was
40:40Christian. Perhaps they're still there.
40:42So, we took a tram, nobody bothered, we
40:45didn't pay there, nothing of course, and
40:48went to this address. And yes, they were
40:51still there, the Rosenbaums.
40:54And he let us in
40:56and um welcomed us and said, "Where is
40:58Hans and Eric?" Um they were best
41:01friends of us. And they said, "Well,
41:03we're waiting for their return."
41:05But eventually, we decided we will look
41:08if perhaps we can go back into our
41:10apartment because it was not our
41:13apartment, it was furnished, belonging
41:15to a person.
41:17And this woman let us back in again.
41:19That was very exceptional because Otto,
41:22when he came back, other people had
41:24lived in his apartment. All the
41:26furniture was sent to Germany, all the
41:29things which was there to help the
41:31cities who had been bombed. And um
41:35and then Otto came to us one day and he
41:39told us the terrible news that his whole
41:42family had perished.
41:45After he left, I lay sat on my mother's
41:48lap and we cried and I said to my
41:51mother, "How can this poor man carry on
41:53with his life? He has nothing to live
41:56for."
41:57And a few days later, he came again with
42:00a little brown parcel under his arm.
42:03And you can guess what it was. It was
42:06Anna's diary.
42:08And he opened it very carefully and he
42:10said,
42:12"Can I read a few sentences in Yiddish?"
42:15But he always burst into tears. It was
42:17too emotional.
42:19Well, you know what happens then. He
42:21published it and it became eventually,
42:24not immediately, when it was published
42:26in America in 1952,
42:29it became a best seller and from then on
42:32it just grew and grew and grew.
42:35And we got as well the notice that
42:39Heinz and my father on the death march
42:42perished. Um my father in March and
42:47Heinz on the 16th of No, 26th of April.
42:52Just 10 days before the Americans came
42:55to liberate that camp.
42:57That was something I just couldn't cope
43:00with.
43:01I became full of hatred. I became
43:03depressed and I wanted to I won't listen
43:07to that. I wanted to commit suicide.
43:11I was so desperate. So, I had survived
43:15because I thought life will go
43:16eventually back to ordinary life. But I
43:19realized that will never ever happen. I
43:22found it very, very difficult to make a
43:25life again.
43:26And Otto came to us very often
43:29and he who had lost everything had no
43:32hatred. He had long discussion together.
43:36I told him how I hate everybody and he
43:39spoke to me. He didn't hate, not even
43:41the Germans. He expressed everything to
43:43me.
43:44Um and he became very helpful for my
43:48mother. My mother became very helpful to
43:50him. They became friends. He looked
43:53after me. He was a good sort of
43:57replacement father for the time being.
44:00Um he always told me stories about Anne
44:03and um
44:05eventually when I finished school, um
44:07Otto and my mother decided I should
44:09become a photographer.
44:12And um Otto got me a job in London.
44:16And um
44:17I went to London for 1 year
44:20to become an apprentice.
44:22And in London I met a young man and in
44:25the boarding house who had come to
44:27London to study economic from Israel.
44:31And you know we were very poor, we
44:33didn't have money and didn't know
44:35England, we didn't know anybody in
44:37England. And so we went for long walks
44:40and after 6 months he said to me, "Eva,
44:43I've fallen in love with you. Will you
44:45marry me? And when I finish my studies
44:49we can go to Israel and start a new
44:51life."
44:53And I said to him, "No, thank you."
44:56He was a little bit shocked, but um I
44:58said, "Well, I have a widowed mother in
45:00Amsterdam and you know we were very
45:03close. I could not imagine I would just
45:06go off and leave her." And then Otto,
45:09who kept an eye on me, came to visit me
45:12one day and I told him I met this young
45:16man, I quite like him, and he asked me
45:18to marry him, but of course I'm not
45:20because I go back to Amsterdam to Mutti.
45:24And then he got a bit embarrassed and he
45:26said, "You know,
45:28we have fallen in love as well and once
45:31you get settled we'd like to get
45:33married."
45:34So I went back to this young man and
45:37said, "You can marry me now." Which we
45:40did. We went then we went to Amsterdam
45:43in 19, uh
45:4452 and got married. And Otto and my
45:48mother got married a year later in 1953.
45:53And I must say I've never seen a happier
45:56couple than those two.
45:58They really loved each other and helped
46:01each other to get through this difficult
46:05period of their life. But then when we
46:07got three little girls, they became the
46:10best grandparents you can imagine. So we
46:14had together family.
46:16So um this is my story in a very very
46:19small nutshell.
46:21Um I wrote three books. The promise is a
46:24book which um I don't think you will see
46:27it, but I think you probably all the
46:29books are in the in the British Library.
46:32The promise is a story about Heinz.
46:35And recently I have decided um you know
46:39Anne everybody knows about Anne, but to
46:42make Heinz as well a known person that
46:45people remembered who he was because
46:48that was my father promised him. I'm
46:51making with an American filmmaker and
46:53animation film.
46:55Which we're working on now and I hope it
46:58will be finished at the end of this
47:00year.
47:01So thank you very much. Um
47:05please read the books if you want to
47:07know more about it because there's a lot
47:09lot more.
47:10And um
47:12I'm now 91 years old and I spent from
47:15from 19
47:16end of 1980 I spent my life going around
47:20many many countries to talk about the
47:23atrocities that happened and that people
47:27learn from it that it will not happen
47:29again.
47:31So there's a lot more to be done for
47:33everybody and the Anne Frank Trust is
47:35one of those organization who try to
47:38change the world for a better world.
47:41Thank you very very much. I can't see
47:43you, but I'm sure you have listened to
47:46my story and hopefully you're seeing
47:49seeing some of the paintings of my
47:51brother.
47:54Eva, I've listened to your story I don't
47:56know how many times now and every time
47:59I'm
48:00moved and hear new things and
48:03I really the thanks are from all of us
48:07to to you.
48:09Eva, we do have some questions coming
48:11through from the audience. If that's
48:13right, we have about 10 or 15 minutes
48:15for those questions. The first one I'm
48:17going to take is from Sarah and she says
48:21thank you for sharing your story and
48:24have you ever returned to the camp?
48:28Um yes and had the intention never ever
48:32to go near anything like that.
48:35But in 1995
48:37when
48:38Auschwitz was for the first first time
48:41open to the Western power, there was a
48:43big memorial service there and the Dutch
48:47television asked me to go there
48:50with my husband. I could go and
48:53make a program and they first said no
48:56way and they said well, we thought so
48:58but um think about it before again and I
49:01was discussing it with my father and my
49:04mother and I said perhaps I can let go
49:08once I go and see it and there was one
49:10attraction. They said there some of the
49:14soldiers who had liberated your camp are
49:17going to be there.
49:18So and you could go and say a thank you
49:21to them and this is really what I wanted
49:24to do and so I did go. But it was
49:27horrible. My husband as soon as he set
49:30foot there burst into tears and the
49:33whole film made sure that he was crying.
49:36And
49:37it was for me it was hard but I thought
49:41at least I could
49:43try to forget about it from now on. I've
49:45seen it and
49:48that's it. I had to have to let go.
49:53Thank you, Eva.
49:55Eva, the next question is from Leon,
49:58who's aged six, and Leon asks, "Do you
50:03remember the song that the soldier sang
50:06to you in that field kitchen?"
50:11I
50:12I saw
50:12Was there Is there a Was there a song?
50:14Is that right? When they
50:17Was there a song in the field kitchen
50:19when you were at Auschwitz?
50:22I don't remember you mentioning it, but
50:24I thought that's why I asked you in case
50:25I missed it.
50:25there might have been, no, I don't
50:27remember anything like that, I'm afraid.
50:30No.
50:32Do you remember perhaps that you you
50:34described the food. Do you remember
50:36other, as it were, moments of hope, joy
50:40just after that liberation?
50:43Um well, there was no music at that
50:46time. Food. Oh, food.
50:50If I remember food.
50:52Or or other things. What What started to
50:54bring you some joy after
50:56a song a song.
50:57Well, the Russians gave us cabbage soup,
50:59so that I do remember very very clearly.
51:03Yeah. And in Auschwitz, no, there wasn't
51:06there wasn't really much anything which
51:11No, I don't remember really any food
51:14besides the cabbage soup.
51:17And I know I found once when we went
51:19Auschwitz, I found on the ground a liver
51:22sausage,
51:23a whole liver sausage, which probably
51:25the Russians had lost or I don't know,
51:28and I took it, and I wanted to eat
51:30nearly the whole, and my mother said,
51:32"Don't don't don't. You'll get You'll
51:34get ill of it." But I ate too much, and
51:37I was pretty ill.
51:41Thank you, Eva. Um Eva, I have a
51:43question from Jane, also thanks you for
51:46sharing your story. Did you go to find
51:49your brother Heinz's paintings and how
51:52did it feel when you found them? What
51:54made you go and look for them?
51:56Yes. Yes, of course. Of course we did go
51:59there and it was a very very emotional
52:02moment to go in this house
52:06and where they'd been betrayed and um
52:09but we knew exactly where they were um
52:12and people didn't want There was a
52:14different people living there and they
52:16didn't want to let us in first and they
52:18said just us again our house but
52:21eventually they let us in.
52:23And um I knew exactly where it was in
52:26the loft. There was a the planks and I
52:30could see a little space and I opened
52:33this and we found 30 paintings and a
52:36whole heap of poe- poems as well. And I
52:40looked at everyone and the favorite of
52:43it was um Heinz sitting at his desk with
52:46his back facing the the audience.
52:49Well done.
52:50He's a lot of paintings on the screen
52:52now, Eva.
52:53Yes, a lot of books around him um
52:57a globe on top and on the side is a
53:00calendar with 11 on it which is the day
53:04of my birthday. So when he painted this
53:06lovely painting he was thinking of me.
53:09That made me of course and my mother
53:12burst into tears.
53:14Yes, the paintings are safe and a few
53:17years ago I I donated them to the
53:20Resistance Museum in Amsterdam where
53:24they made a big exhibition and a display
53:27of them and so many many people go and
53:31see it so
53:33to see what Heinz has created.
53:35And here's the on the screen now is the
53:37painting of the belfry and the bell and
53:39looking out over a beautiful flat Dutch
53:41countryside it looks like.
53:43And what is so nice, you might not see
53:45it if it's so small. There's a little
53:48bird sitting on the windowsill, and he
53:51wrote a beautiful poem,
53:53um,
53:54"Little bird, where are you going? I
53:56wish I could follow you." And it goes
53:59on, you know, how he's wishing to be out
54:02in freedom. And, um, yeah, so beautiful
54:05poems as well.
54:09And then the painting of a woman, um,
54:12Eva, who is the who's the woman in the
54:13painting?
54:14That is my mother.
54:15And the hands was of course not a
54:18painter. Never had never had done
54:20anything with oil oil painting. So, my
54:23father, to encourage him, started to
54:25paint as well.
54:27He had never painted either. And this is
54:29a portrait of his wife, my mother.
54:32And it is really a very very good
54:34likeness, beautiful.
54:37And I have a copy. The original is of
54:39course in the resisted museum, and I
54:42have a copy in my living room.
54:46And then there's one of the final
54:48pictures of our
54:49Yes, this is a beautiful picture, and it
54:52is very amazing. That is, um,
54:56the uncle, um, my mother's sister and
54:59her husband and her little son, um,
55:02were able to come to England to
55:04Lancashire, to Darwen, tiny little town.
55:08And
55:09they lived there with my grandparents.
55:12And when my grandmother was still alive,
55:15of course, when she saw the paintings,
55:17and she said, "But this is the room
55:19where I slept with my grandson."
55:23And I I had never been there, never knew
55:25anything about this, and it was exactly
55:28the room.
55:29Amazing.
55:31Completely.
55:34Eva, I have
55:35There were 30 30 artworks, like 30
55:38paintings.
55:42Um Eva, I have uh
55:45a question
55:47from Susanna.
55:50Uh she says, "I cannot imagine how
55:53anyone could live in such terrible
55:55surroundings and be able to deal with it
55:58in Auschwitz.
56:00How do you think it has defined your
56:03life?"
56:06Um well, that's a difficult question.
56:08Like I said, when I came back, I was
56:12very depressed.
56:14And um
56:15afterwards, when I got married, what I
56:18wanted was a big, big, big urge to start
56:23a family.
56:24And unfortunately,
56:27it didn't work.
56:29And that is, I must tell you, um in the
56:32camp, nobody had a period.
56:35Um because in the liquid, we got
56:37bromide, which means that our female
56:41functions didn't work. So, I couldn't
56:44conceive.
56:45So, I was desperate, but eventually, I
56:48had treatment and I got pregnant, and my
56:52first daughter was born.
56:54And that was for me a big change in my
56:57attitude. It was in 1956.
57:00In my attitude, in my
57:03um hope, and um and yeah, this helped me
57:08a lot to get over this terrible
57:10experience.
57:12And 2 years later, I got my second
57:14daughter, and 4 years later, our third
57:16daughter.
57:17And like I said, we were a family again,
57:20and this really helped me to get over
57:23this terrible experience.
57:27We got Yes, we have a question from
57:29Neve, who says, um
57:31uh how incredible it is that Otto did
57:33not express hate and
57:36how did you deal with the anger towards
57:39the evil of what happened? And it seems
57:41that ultimately that's your question, is
57:42it? It was about your family.
57:45What?
57:46How did you deal with the the hatred?
57:49How did you
57:49Which hatred?
57:51Um
57:52How did you get through it?
57:53you know,
57:54after I had for 40 years I had
57:57nightmares till I started in 19 86. So,
58:01after 40 years was the first time I
58:04spoke openly about what has happened.
58:06Actually, in an Anne Frank exhibition,
58:09which is the first one who came to
58:11England and I was allowed to speak
58:14there.
58:15And it was difficult for me. I must say
58:17very, very difficult, but it helped me.
58:21I could let go.
58:23So, I lived it all
58:2640 years after this, but you know, so 40
58:29years were were really difficult. I
58:32tried to live a normal life, but I was
58:34very shy. I had all kind of nervous
58:37illnesses.
58:38Um
58:39It It's you know, if you go through
58:42something like this as a young person,
58:44um you can't just get over it. But
58:48as I say, the last 40 years of my life,
58:52I
58:52I
58:53when I did good work, I realized um
58:56after I came back, people said never
58:58again Auschwitz, but of course, in the
59:01'80s it started again. The wars,
59:04persecutions,
59:06prejudice, and so I decided after I
59:09spoke up, I am going to try to teach
59:12people
59:13um
59:14that we have to change our attitudes.
59:17And this is what I've done for as well
59:19for 40 years now. I know I'm stuck at
59:22the moment, but I hope that eventually I
59:24can carry on.
59:26And it is unfortunately still necessary,
59:29like Selena Frank's work. Personally, I
59:32do as well very much individual work to
59:36try to change people's attitudes.
59:39And Eva, you've been you've been locked
59:42down in your your flat in North London,
59:44haven't you? But you've had both your
59:45vaccinations now, aren't you? So, we're
59:47very glad to know that you're you're
59:49safe.
59:50But I have the vaccination, but there
59:52are also people have not yet, so we feel
59:55still
59:56We're still a bit stuck with this.
59:57We've We've got a way to go. And we've
1:00:00had
1:00:00And I have hope. You know, you must
1:00:02never give up hope in any situation.
1:00:05There's always an end to every
1:00:07situation.
1:00:10Thank you, Eva. Can I say to everybody
1:00:13watching? We've got lots of questions,
1:00:14and I'm so sorry we haven't managed to
1:00:16get to all of them. I do have one last
1:00:18question, if I may, Eva, from the
1:00:20audience, which is from Benedikte.
1:00:23Uh and they ask,
1:00:25"What would you advise us to do to
1:00:28prevent hatred, bullying, and
1:00:31discrimination? What would you advise
1:00:34the world to do to stop hatred and
1:00:36bullying and discrimination?"
1:00:39Well,
1:00:40the advice is not to feel this way. You
1:00:42know, I mean, we are all human beings.
1:00:45My husband always used to say, and I
1:00:47think that he's so right, we are just
1:00:49one race, the human race. It doesn't
1:00:52matter if you are um yellow or pink or
1:00:56black. Um we are all people. We all have
1:01:00the same mechanicals. Our bodies are all
1:01:03the same. We do the same work. We have
1:01:06the same birth. We have everything the
1:01:08same. And um and the same with religion.
1:01:11Religion is there to help people make a
1:01:15better life, to become better people.
1:01:17And people hate different religions. And
1:01:20we all want the same. All people,
1:01:23the Jewish people, the Muslims, the
1:01:25Christians,
1:01:27the Hindus, the Buddhists, there are so
1:01:29many kind of ways you can
1:01:32have a God, but it's all for the the
1:01:35better of people. It's
1:01:37People hate each other if they're
1:01:39different. This we have to learn. We
1:01:41have to learn to accept each other for
1:01:44human beings, which we are.
1:01:49Eva, I can't think of more wonderful
1:01:50words to end on than that we're all
1:01:52human beings. Um friends, visitors,
1:01:55guests at home, can I just say to you
1:01:58that some of Eva's story, some of the
1:02:03facts about the Holocaust are deeply
1:02:05disturbing. You may find yourself
1:02:08dwelling on this in the next day or two.
1:02:10If you do, just talk. Talk to somebody.
1:02:13Do be in touch with a friend, a member
1:02:15of your family. Um just make sure that
1:02:18you tell somebody else. I heard Eva
1:02:21Schloss speaking the other night, and
1:02:22this is what I heard. Just so you you
1:02:25share it. Uh don't don't let those
1:02:27things dwell
1:02:28uh in in you too
1:02:30grimly. We need to both remember the
1:02:33seriousness of this and remember that
1:02:36extraordinary
1:02:39uh humanity that you embody, Eva,
1:02:42um so remarkably. Thank you as ever for
1:02:45telling your story so beautifully, so
1:02:50frankly to all of us.
1:02:52Uh really, you are quite remarkable
1:02:54human being. Thank you very, very much
1:02:57indeed.
1:02:59As as soon as I can, I come to your
1:03:01schools. Just ask me. I'll be there.
1:03:06Or do get in touch with us at the Anne
1:03:08Frank Trust. We will We will always make
1:03:10that introduction if if if we can.
1:03:13Thank you very much for joining us this
1:03:15evening, and a special thank you to our
1:03:17guest Ava and also to Tim. Do remember
1:03:22to click on the tabs above in order to
1:03:25provide us with some feedback and also
1:03:27to buy Ava's Ava's book.
1:03:31To find out more about the events that
1:03:34we're running, do have a look on our
1:03:36what's on pages. Thank you very much
1:03:38those of you who joined us from the
1:03:40Living Knowledge Network. Thank you and
1:03:42good night.

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