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RELATIONSHIP EXPERT: Anxious People Are Addicted to Unavailable Partners (& How to Fix it!) — Transcript

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0:00Hey everyone, welcome back to On
0:01Purpose. Today, my guest is Thais
0:04Gibson, the founder of the Personal
0:06Development School and the creator of
0:08the new attachment theory, integrated
0:11attachment theory. Being a leading
0:13expert in the space, she helps people
0:15understand their relationship patterns,
0:17heal core wounds, and build secure,
0:19lasting love. In Thais's book, The New
0:22Attachment Theory, Heal Every
0:24Relationship by Rewiring Your Brain and
0:26Nervous System, she shares practical
0:28tools to change the patterns that shape
0:31how we connect. Thais Gibson, welcome to
0:33On Purpose.
0:34>> Thank you so much for having me. You're
0:35lovely and I'm just I'm really excited
0:37to chat with you.
0:38>> I'm so grateful to have you here, Thais.
0:39I feel like
0:40the world got addicted to attachment
0:42styles
0:43and got fascinated with the language.
0:46And I think what so often happens is we
0:48find language to support how we feel,
0:50how we think,
0:52but then you're encouraging us with the
0:54new attachment theory to actually
0:56encourage us to heal, to transform, to
0:59grow. And I feel this is a conversation
1:01that every single person needs to hear
1:03because whether it's their love life,
1:05whether it's their workplace, whether
1:07it's their personal image of who they
1:09are, this conversation will make a
1:11difference in their life. Could you
1:12start by telling me, if someone listens
1:14to our conversation today, what will
1:16change for them? I think the biggest
1:18thing and to your point, like I love
1:20that everybody I've been studying this
1:21work for a long time and in this field
1:23for a long time and when attachment
1:24styles started becoming more mainstream,
1:25I was so excited. And [snorts] then over
1:27time, I started thinking like, wait,
1:30it's almost becoming to the point where
1:31people are just identifying with it
1:32almost as a label going, oh, I just am
1:34this attachment style, rather than being
1:37in a position of going, wait, I have to
1:38heal this. Like, let me understand this.
1:41This temporary label gives me context
1:43into the things within me that may need
1:45a little bit more love or healing or
1:47support, but the actual work is being
1:50able to say, okay, here are my patterns,
1:51where do they come from, and then
1:52actually rewiring them at the
1:54subconscious level, and that's what I
1:55definitely hope the the key takeaway is
1:57for today. If someone has no idea what
1:59attachment styles are and this is their
2:00first time even hearing that term, how
2:02would you break it down for them and
2:03define it for them? Yeah, so the first
2:05thing is everybody has an attachment
2:06style and there are four of them. And
2:08this is one of the biggest studied
2:10bodies of work originally and it
2:12originally came from John Bowlby and
2:14Mary Ainsworth at Cambridge University
2:16and they said, "Hey, there are four
2:17attachment styles." The first one is the
2:19securely attached style. So they
2:20represent about 50% of the population
2:22data shows us. I always have a hard time
2:24with that. I'm like, wait, it seems like
2:26it may not be quite so high, but
2:28basically they have securely attached
2:30individuals are people who grew up in
2:32childhood with what we call a lot of
2:33approach-oriented behaviors from their
2:35parents.
2:36And it sounds like such a small thing,
2:37but it goes such a long way. So
2:39approach-oriented behaviors really means
2:40that when a child is young, if they cry
2:43or they get distressed, the parent is
2:45attuned. They're very present and they
2:47notice it and they approach the child to
2:49be like, "What's wrong?" and they
2:50attempt to soothe them and make the
2:52child feel better. And what that
2:53conditions a child to believe at a very
2:55young age is my emotions are worthy of
2:56being seen and heard. It's safe to rely
2:58on other people. I can trust that people
3:00are going to be there for me and also I
3:02can communicate and almost most
3:04importantly, I am worthy of love as I
3:06am. On my good days, on my bad days, in
3:09my good moments and in my hard moments.
3:11And so there's a lot of really healthy
3:13conditioning that that child adopts and
3:15so of course that's the type of
3:16patterning they bring into their
3:17relationships as adults. And what's
3:19really interesting to me is that
3:20securely attached people, they report
3:22not just having the longest lasting
3:23relationships, but they report the most
3:25satisfaction in their relationships and
3:26that's a very meaningful thing. And I'm
3:28just a big believer in relationships. I
3:30love people. I care about people and I I
3:32really think that relationships
3:33determine the quality of our life in so
3:35many ways and so that's very meaningful
3:37in terms of, you know, the the stats on
3:39that. And then we have three insecure
3:41attachment styles. This makes up the
3:42other 50% or so of the population. I
3:44can't believe 50% of people are secure.
3:46That's that's huge. That's what I think
3:48all the time.
3:49>> all my girlfriends are struggling to
3:50find that that kind of person. Like all
3:52my friends who are dating uh all my
3:54friends who are dating are definitely
3:56struggling to find that 50%.
3:57>> I always think that myself. And and to
3:59be honest, first of all, it's
4:01conditioning and we'll get into a lot of
4:02this, I'm sure, but but conditioning
4:03changes. So, somebody could be secure at
4:04a young age when a lot of these
4:05experiments were originally done, and
4:07then they can go through relationship
4:08struggles and become insecure later. And
4:10secondly, I'm always like, "Oh, maybe
4:12it's my sample size of people." You
4:13know, cuz I always see people who are
4:14insecurely attached become secure. So,
4:15I'm going, "Okay, maybe that's why." But
4:17securely attached people often end up in
4:18relationships pretty early with other
4:20securely attached people. And we can get
4:22into why that happens at a subconscious
4:23level cuz you usually pair up with
4:25people of a specific attachment style
4:27for specific reasons. Um but to your
4:29point, I wonder the same thing. I'm
4:30like, "Come on, that's that I don't
4:31know." [laughter] Yeah. But the other
4:3350% of the insecure attachment style.
4:35>> Exactly. So, then we have three, and I
4:37like to think of the other three as
4:38being along a continuum in a way. So,
4:40one end of the continuum you have the
4:41anxious attachment style. Anxiously
4:43attached individuals, they grow up with
4:45either real or perceived abandonment.
4:48Real abandonment is the obvious. You
4:49know, a parent passes away at a young
4:51age, God forbid, or a parent is, you
4:53know, they leave at a young age for a
4:55child. And all of a sudden that child
4:56grows up feeling like, "Oh my gosh, am I
4:57going to be left or abandoned again?"
4:59Perceived abandonment is really
5:00interesting because the neuroscience of
5:02trauma tells us that small T trauma
5:05repeatedly enough over time has a quite
5:07similar impact to a singular big T
5:09trauma. So, perceived abandonment
5:11consistently in a child's upbringing
5:13causes them to have real real
5:15abandonment wounds as an adult, similar
5:16to if there was a real abandonment that
5:18took place. And perceived abandonment is
5:20things like, you have very loving
5:21parents, but they're really busy.
5:23They're always working, they're always
5:24traveling for work. And so, children
5:25grow up in this environment going,
5:27"Okay, love is here, and then love is
5:29taken away. And love is here, and it's
5:30taken away." And that inconsistency
5:32there
5:33causes this child to really brace and
5:35deeply fear love being taken away. And
5:38so, as adults, these individuals, they
5:40adapt in their life to be like, "Let me
5:42really be charming and charismatic and
5:43well-liked, so I I people over." And
5:46they end up having superpowers in that
5:47way and in many forms, but also
5:50anxiously attached adults, they people
5:52please so much to the point where they
5:53can burn themselves out or they people
5:55please to the point of self-silencing.
5:57And their big wounds, so so we took this
6:00original body of attachment theory and
6:02they you know, it said here your four
6:04attachment styles, good luck.
6:05>> [laughter]
6:06>> And it was sort of like, wait, but you
6:07can recondition pretty much anything.
6:09Like you can rewire these things and I
6:10originally started in this work for that
6:12reason.
6:13Um and so what we found is that anxious
6:15attachment styles, they have big core
6:17wounds specifically around the fear of
6:19abandonment, the fear of being alone,
6:21excluded, disliked, rejected, not good
6:24enough. These are like these huge wounds
6:26and triggers in their relationships. And
6:28they need very specific things in
6:29relationships. They need more
6:30validation, approval. They really like
6:33certainty. If somebody cancels plans
6:35with them, they really want to know,
6:36okay, you're canceling plans, but tell
6:38me when I'm going to see you next and
6:39then they can sort of rest and feel
6:40comfortable and safe. Um and so they end
6:43up in situations where they sometimes
6:44struggle with their boundaries growing
6:45up. They often end up in situations as
6:47well where because they're so busy
6:50making sure that everybody else is good,
6:52they kind of forget about themselves and
6:53they put themselves on the back burner.
6:54So anxious attachment styles as adults,
6:57they often also are very much invested
6:59in and attracted to emotionally
7:00unavailable people. And that becomes
7:02really problematic in different ways.
7:04>> part? Yeah. Yeah, so
7:07they become attracted to emotionally
7:08unavailable people because and and I
7:10guess maybe I'll give a little bit more
7:12of a backstory to this. Um
7:14you know, for me, I originally got into
7:16this work because I uh you know, had a a
7:19turbulent childhood and actually got
7:21addicted to painkillers after a knee
7:22surgery at 15.
7:24And I you know, really struggled with
7:26about a six-year daily use of opioids
7:28and tried inpatient rehab and outpatient
7:31rehab and all had all of these these
7:32things come up. And what was really
7:34interesting is
7:36I felt like life was really hard and I
7:37felt like relationships were really hard
7:38at that point. And I tried a lot of
7:41things that weren't really working, and
7:42I was in school for psychology.
7:45And like maybe on the outside my life
7:46looked like, "You're doing well. You're
7:48You're okay." But on the inside I was
7:49like, "I'm a mess." Like I was really
7:50hurting. And I was in a psych class and
7:53I was seriously thinking like I think I
7:54need to leave school. Like I don't think
7:55I can take this, handle this. And
7:57somebody said to me in a class,
7:59they were like it wasn't even the
8:00professor, it was a student, and he
8:02said, "Oh, your conscious mind can't
8:03outwill or overpower your subconscious
8:05mind."
8:06And for me, that was like so powerful
8:09because I was sitting there going, "Oh,
8:11so you're telling me that like all the
8:14times I say I'm going to get clean, I'm
8:15going to change my life, I'm going to,
8:17you know, stop all these these really
8:18painful things that I'm doing, I'm going
8:19to delete people's numbers from my
8:20phone, I'm going to change, and then I
8:22don't, it's not that I'm weak or
8:25powerless or not capable, it's that like
8:27this is actually what's going on. It's
8:29my subconscious mind." So I originally
8:31started this work by getting sober and
8:34then being obsessed with learning about
8:35the subconscious mind and the ego and
8:37how all this works from sort of this
8:39like spiritual perspective to how do we
8:40sort of transcend those patterns and
8:41those conditions.
8:43So I was originally working for the
8:44first few years of my practice not with
8:46attachment styles, but actually with
8:47people in their core wounds. So like
8:49what are these big triggers that we
8:51carry from our past into our present?
8:54And and, you know, how is it showing up
8:56in our life? And so what was really
8:58interesting about that is I was working
8:59with people on rewiring their triggers,
9:01learning their own needs and how to meet
9:02them in healthy ways, learning to
9:04regulate their nervous system, learning
9:06to communicate and set boundaries.
9:08And then I came to attachment styles
9:10actually because I met my now husband,
9:12and we both had a lot of little things
9:13we hadn't worked out in relationships
9:15yet. And I started revisiting attachment
9:17theory which I'd learned at a very high
9:18level in university.
9:20And I was like, "Wait. Like first of
9:23all, if I know somebody's attachment
9:25style, I now know exactly what their
9:27core wounds are going to be, exactly
9:29what their needs are going to be,
9:30exactly what these emotional patterns
9:31are going to be in relationships and
9:32what their nervous system's going to be
9:34functioning like, and I know what types
9:36of boundary issues they're going to have
9:38and how they tend to communicate in
9:39relationships. And it was so interesting
9:41just like original attachment theory
9:42didn't cover any of that. It was more
9:43about like temperament and sort of some
9:44of your behaviors.
9:46And so I was like, "Oh my gosh, tell me
9:47somebody's attachment style and I can
9:49help them rewire all these different
9:50patterns and themes." And so what was
9:52really exciting to me is like attachment
9:54styles became mainstream, but then it
9:56was like, "Okay, here's your attachment
9:57style." And that's when people start to
9:59identify instead of like, "Hey, let me
10:00do that that underlying work." So So
10:02going back to I detour there, but but
10:05going back to this, that's the anxious
10:07attachment style in a nutshell. It's
10:08like those are their themes and their
10:09patterns. They fear like the
10:10abandonment, feeling not good enough,
10:13feeling excluded, disliked, rejected.
10:15Those are those big triggers that
10:16they're bringing from their past because
10:18their subconscious mind was imprinted
10:19with that. And then we always project
10:22that into the present. And I often give
10:23people this analogy of like a bear in
10:25the woods. If you go into the woods
10:27tomorrow and you see a bear
10:29and you run from it and you're safe,
10:31thank goodness, but then the very next
10:33day you go back into the woods, well,
10:35what does your mind do? You're like
10:37bracing for the bear. You're like, "The
10:38bear is coming." The trees blow in the
10:39wind and you're like, "Oh my god, the
10:40bear." And so what's really interesting
10:42is that we all do that, right? We all
10:45have, "Oh, I felt abandoned as a child.
10:46Okay, I project that as an adult. Oh, I
10:48felt not good enough as a child. That's
10:49what I bring into my relationships as an
10:51adult." And that's honestly what our
10:52relationship baggage is. And those are
10:54all things that interfere the most in
10:55our relationships, but those are
10:56solvable problems. So that's sort of the
10:58anxious attachment style. And do you
10:59want me to go into the other two? Yes,
11:01please. Yeah, absolutely.
11:02>> Okay, so we have our secure, we have our
11:03anxious. At the other end of the
11:05continuum is our dismissive avoidant. So
11:07the dismissive avoidant attachment
11:08style,
11:09they grow up with their overarching
11:11theme being childhood emotional neglect.
11:14And [snorts]
11:14sometimes you hear that and you kind of
11:16imagine that, "Okay, this person is
11:18going through their childhood and you
11:20know, they have this really intense
11:22dynamic where they're alone at 3 years
11:24old and they're trying to find food."
11:25Like of course it can be these really
11:27extreme scenarios, but most often
11:29childhood emotional neglect is very much
11:31that you have these kids who
11:33food's on the table. There's structure
11:35and order. They're at school on time,
11:36but their parents are not emotionally
11:37available and not attuned. And it's
11:39usually not the inconsistency like one's
11:41attuned and one's not. It's usually both
11:43are not really attuned and they're much
11:44more uninvolved. And because children
11:47are literally wired for attunement, they
11:49are wired for connection. We need as
11:50children to feel safe and to feel seen
11:52and to feel special. Children come into
11:54this environment and they're like,
11:56"Okay, well, I guess this part of me
11:57that needs this is is defective and
11:59wrong." And so what they end up doing to
12:01adapt to an environment like that is
12:02repressing their attachment needs and
12:04minimizing their need for emotional
12:06connection. And so they feel better and
12:08like they have a sense of control when
12:10they're able to do that. But then as
12:12adults, that really causes disruption to
12:14their relationships because they've
12:16learned, "Okay, this part of me, my
12:17emotional vulnerable self, is defective
12:20or shameful. If I express it too much,
12:22I'll be weak." These are their big
12:24triggers. They end up feeling very
12:25afraid of relying on other people and
12:27being helpless or trapped in a situation
12:29or engulfed. And they very much a lot of
12:32shame from childhood because as a child
12:35if you yearn for connection and it keeps
12:37getting rejected and nobody's paying
12:39attention, well, then of course as an
12:40adult you're like, "Oh, deep down if
12:42people really see me, they're going to
12:43reject me like that, too, and I must be
12:44shameful. Like something deep down must
12:46be defective or broken within me." And
12:48so it's so interesting cuz they're very
12:49stoic. Dismissal ones are very stoic.
12:51You often don't see it, but that tends
12:53to be what they bring into their
12:55relationships. Those are their biggest
12:56core triggers and fears from this like
12:57new attachment theory perspective. And
12:59so then we have these adults who go into
13:01their relationships and they're the
13:03types of individuals as adults who are
13:04like, "Oh, they're they're great at the
13:06beginning when everything's easy and
13:07light." And then after you date them for
13:09four, five, six months when things get a
13:11little more real and serious, they jet
13:14or they pull away or they retreat. And
13:16then they end up in situations where,
13:18you know, even if they make it through
13:19that that period of time and keep dating
13:22somebody and keep investing, they really
13:24retreat emotionally and they shut down.
13:26And so [snorts] then you have these
13:27individuals as adults who are like,
13:29"Okay, you know, I I feel like I'm
13:32trying to connect with you and my
13:33partner's not really available or
13:34present." And they really cope by trying
13:36to always minimize their attachment
13:38needs and create space. And so they
13:39become quite distant in relationships.
13:41And then the very last one is the
13:43fearful avoidant attachment style.
13:45Um fearful avoidants are basically
13:46characterized by more big T trauma
13:49growing up, so more emotional chaos. You
13:51know, it can be anything from like
13:52having a parent with narcissistic
13:53personality disorder to having a parent
13:55who was an alcoholic or parents in
13:56active addiction or really intense
13:58divorce growing up. You have more
14:00extreme kind of scenarios that the
14:01children are exposed to.
14:03But their wiring is such that while an
14:06anxious attachment style is like they
14:08always want more closeness and to win
14:10people over. And dismissive avoidants
14:12always want more space and to keep
14:13distance. Fearful avoidants will learn
14:15that love is both a really good thing
14:17and a really hard thing. Interesting. So
14:19they grow up essentially going, "Well,
14:21love is a good thing because let's say
14:23for example that mom is an alcoholic.
14:25Well, maybe one day mom comes home and
14:27she's had a few drinks but she's in a
14:28good mood and she's loving and she
14:30embraces you and you're like, "Oh, love
14:31is safe. Love is good. I want more of
14:32this." And then other days maybe mom's
14:34an alcoholic
14:35and she's drinking more heavily and now
14:37she's angry drunk and she's cruel and
14:38she's mean and she's unpredictable.
14:40And a child is like, "Well, love is a
14:42really good thing but it can also really
14:43hurt me. It will be really harsh and
14:45critical and cruel sometimes to me." And
14:47so they end up having very competing
14:49associations about the same thing.
14:50They're like, "Love is both really good
14:52and really bad." And then as adults what
14:54ends up happening is they're the very
14:56hot and cold partner. A lot of their
14:58core wounds from their childhood, their
14:59version of the bear in the woods, is
15:01they fear abandonment because they feel
15:03that abandonment when that love isn't
15:04there. They fear being trapped and
15:06helpless if they rely on people cuz
15:08they've had times where they rely on
15:09somebody who's really unpredictable and
15:10scary. And they have a huge core wound
15:12around feeling betrayed. That's the
15:13biggest wound we found from
15:15the new attachment theory perspective is
15:17like always waiting for the other shoe
15:19to drop. Always waiting to to be on high
15:21alert. Like, is somebody going to hurt
15:22me? And what happens to fearful avoidant
15:25is they get into relationships and love
15:27feels like a very bittersweet
15:28experience. And I'll speak for myself
15:30cuz I was a fearful avoidant, and I
15:33remember before doing a lot of deep
15:34inner work, in my early serious
15:36relationships when I was much younger,
15:38feeling like I would fall in love and
15:40feeling like I loved the feeling of
15:42being in love and connecting and really
15:43wanted that depth and and connection,
15:46but it was also very bittersweet because
15:48the more I loved, the more I was like,
15:51"Well, you're for sure going to hurt me
15:52that much more. Like, this is going to
15:53be a really bad ending." And there was
15:54this sort of belief that everything was
15:56going to inevitably be really bad and
15:58really painful. So, love feels so good,
16:00but it also feels like a threat and it's
16:01scary. And it causes you in a
16:03relationship to be like, "Come get
16:04close. Come get close." Somebody gets
16:05close, you're like, "Get back.
16:07I changed my mind." And so, you see this
16:09and you see it like clockwork. I've seen
16:11this with tons of thousands of clients
16:12I've worked with the same themes, the
16:14same patterns. And I remember having one
16:15woman and she said to me,
16:17"I could tell by the way my mom got home
16:20from work. I'd be upstairs in my room
16:21and I could tell the way my mom closed
16:23the door on her way in if I should close
16:25my door quickly or not." And it's like
16:27fearful avoidants learn to be very
16:28hypervigilant. They learn to read
16:30between the lines. They read like every
16:32little micro-expression and body
16:34language and change in a tone of voice
16:35cuz that's how they've learned to
16:37attach. So, anxious people are like,
16:39"Let me Let me get close to you." And
16:40people pleasers, dismissive avoidants
16:41are like, "Let me keep space." Fearful
16:43avoidants are like, "Let me notice every
16:45little thing about you so I can predict
16:47your future and I can know how to
16:49respond." And it gives them that
16:50superpower in a way, but often then when
16:52you have these wounds and then you jump
16:53to conclusions like, "Oh, something
16:55changed. Something's off. You're going
16:56to abandon or betray me or you're trying
16:58to control me." And you sort of jump to
17:00those conclusions, it makes for a really
17:01turbulent set of relationships and
17:03lifestyle. I think what you just
17:05explained,
17:06I think everyone listening's like,
17:08"That's who I am.
17:10That's who I've dated. That's who my
17:12parents are." Right? Like, when you
17:14break it down that way,
17:16I feel it gives people so much clarity
17:19to actually recognize all the mistakes
17:20they're repeating, all the things
17:22they're carrying,
17:24why we walk into relationships where we
17:27can sense something doesn't quite make
17:29sense, or why we get attracted to
17:31familiar patterns that we saw in our
17:33parents.
17:34It feels like this can help people
17:37actually give them a map
17:39of how to make sense of their emotions
17:41and even the people they meet.
17:44What would you encourage someone to do
17:45differently if someone's listening right
17:47now and they're dating?
17:49How can they use what you've just shared
17:52to date differently? Yeah, so really
17:54good question. So you touched on
17:55something earlier and I sidetracked and
17:57forgot to come back to, but it's
17:58actually this. It's that we You were
18:00like, "What causes that sort of
18:01attraction piece?" And this plays right
18:02into this, which is we are attracted to
18:05people. So your conscious mind is
18:07responsible for 3 to 5% of all of your
18:09beliefs, your thoughts, your emotions,
18:10your actions. Your subconscious and
18:12unconscious collectively are 95 to 97%.
18:15And so what's really interesting is
18:16consciously, our conscious mind is our
18:18logical, analytical mind, and our
18:19subconscious is our habituated self, our
18:21programming, our conditioning. And our
18:24conscious mind will say, "I want the
18:26emotionally available partner. I want
18:28the person who's ready to be in a
18:29relation-" We'll say all the things in
18:30the world, but secure people feel that
18:33consciously and subconsciously.
18:35Insecure people don't. Insecurely
18:37attached people don't really have that
18:37same experience. So for example,
18:40our subconscious mind
18:42equates familiarity to safety and thus
18:45survival, and ultimately we're survival
18:46wired. And so what ends up happening is
18:48people who are, let's say, anxiously
18:50attached, for example, they'll often say
18:52consciously that they want the
18:53emotionally available partner, but they
18:55will feel most attracted to and be most
18:57likely to invest in, because your
18:59subconscious mind runs the show, people
19:01who are most familiar.
19:03What is most familiar to each of us is
19:05actually
19:07the way we treat ourselves.
19:09And so if you look at the anxious
19:10person, how does the anxious person
19:12treat themselves? Well, because they're
19:13so externally focused on everybody
19:14else's feelings and needs, they often
19:15dismiss and avoid their own feelings,
19:18their needs, their boundaries. And so,
19:20what happens as a result of that is they
19:22are very much often attracted to people
19:24who will mirror that back to them. And
19:26even if you flip that around to the
19:27dismissive avoidant, dismissive
19:28avoidants end up in situations where
19:30they're like preoccupied with their own
19:32time to themselves. They're going, "Do I
19:34have enough time to myself to regulate?
19:35Do I have enough space?" And so, what's
19:37really interesting is consciously
19:38they'll say, "Oh, I want somebody who
19:40gets my freedom and and respects it."
19:42But subconsciously they'll often go and
19:43and fasten people who are very
19:45preoccupied with them. And so, that's
19:47why you often pair up with people of
19:48different attachment styles. And that's
19:49often why you see secure people be with
19:51secure people. And so, when it comes to
19:53dating, the most important thing, and I
19:54will say this forever, and nobody likes
19:56to hear it, but that's the truth, is
19:58that the most important thing you're
19:59ever going to do is learn to have a
20:01secure relationship with yourself first.
20:02And that's going to be through rewiring
20:04these insecure patterns, and I'm sure we
20:06can get into all the ways how, but but
20:08rewiring those insecure patterns because
20:10you can say that you want the healthiest
20:12relationship, you can have your
20:13checklist, you can know your needs, you
20:15can try to ask all the right questions
20:16on the dates and go to the right places
20:17and find the right people, but
20:18ultimately, you often will find that
20:21you're in relationships with people who
20:22might have all those things on the
20:23checklist, and you're like,
20:25"I just don't feel attracted to them."
20:26Oh, this person and I've heard this all
20:28the time. I actually used to do this
20:29when I was much younger before doing the
20:30work. I had people where I'd date them
20:32or start to get to know them, and they
20:33were very secure, and I would be like,
20:35"This is kind of boring. Like, what
20:37>> [laughter]
20:38>> That's crazy.
20:38>> Where's Where's the roller coaster? Cuz
20:40that's what was most familiar. And this
20:42is a a conversation I've had with
20:43thousands of people at this point. We
20:45are not going to be attracted to the
20:46right people according to our conscious
20:48mind's evaluation of it until we do that
20:51inner work first to heal, to become
20:52secure to self, and then that's who
20:54we'll be attracted to and want to invest
20:55in with other people. That makes so much
20:57sense. It's why making the list of
21:00everything you want in your ideal person
21:01doesn't just make sense because that's
21:03your conscious mind. Or this idea of,
21:05"Oh, if you vision them and dream them
21:07and vision board them, doesn't make
21:09sense because that's your conscious mind
21:11and while everything meanwhile
21:13everything's happening in your
21:14subconscious mind, which isn't ready,
21:16isn't prepared, is rejecting someone
21:18that's actually good for you as boring
21:21and accepting someone who's terrible for
21:23you because it's familiar. And so the
21:25chaos and the ups and downs and so that
21:28may it now makes sense listening to that
21:29why we're attracted to the people that
21:34make us feel insecure or people that are
21:37not emotionally available because we've
21:40had that before, so we know what
21:42behaviors to play into which is I'll be
21:44hypervigilant if I'm a fearful avoidant,
21:46I'll be super distant if I'm one of you
21:49know, it's it's fascinating to me that
21:52yeah, just listening to that just makes
21:53it make sense.
21:55And as you said, the advice you just
21:57gave is becoming secure in your
21:58relationship with yourself,
22:00you're not just saying hey, you have to
22:01love yourself first or you have to
22:02you're saying to actually you can
22:04actually technically
22:06develop a subconscious relationship with
22:09yourself that is based on security and
22:12safety. Yes. So earlier when I was
22:14saying there was the original attachment
22:16theory was like these are the attachment
22:17styles but kind of just talked about
22:18their temperaments and some of the
22:19themes in their childhood and how they'd
22:20behave.
22:22I had already been doing this work with
22:23like the core wounds and the needs and
22:24the nervous system frameworks with
22:26people and and help people communicate
22:28and how they behave and I was
22:29specifically in the body of work for the
22:31first few years I was working with
22:32people just helping people like rewire
22:34their painful patterns. And a lot of it
22:35was from their childhood conditioning,
22:37but I hadn't ever put it into the theme
22:39of like attachment styles. And then when
22:42I you know, met my husband and we we
22:44started getting more serious and I was
22:45like ooh, I still have a little like
22:47relationship work to do. I did a lot of
22:48work to be really peaceful within
22:49myself, but realized I had a little
22:51relationship work to do with him and
22:53kind of felt like he also had some work
22:54to do with me. And I I revisited more
22:57about learning about relationships and
22:59the first thing I went back to was like
23:00oh, attachment styles and I was like oh
23:01my goodness, once I know somebody's
23:03attachment style, every attachment style
23:04has these core wounds and these patterns
23:06with their needs and these patterns with
23:07their nervous system communication
23:09behaviors. And so,
23:11what we end up creating is this whole
23:13body of work that's you can actually
23:15rewire each of those things at the
23:17subconscious level because your
23:18subconscious mind is literally driving
23:19your life. And so, it's like all of the
23:21conditioning that we've picked up from
23:23past experiences in our own personal
23:24warehouse, how do we start to
23:26recondition? And we really boil it into
23:27those five pillars.
23:29So, the first pillar. And this is like I
23:31love that you said it's not just about
23:32self-love cuz sometimes, I don't know,
23:35sometimes you hear stuff and people say,
23:36just forgive people, and you're like,
23:37that would be nice if I felt like that.
23:39How do I emotionally arrive there? And
23:40how do I actually feel that deeply? And
23:42so, a lot of the work is how do we
23:43actually get to our subconscious mind
23:44because that's how things unfold this
23:46way. And same with self-love, it's a
23:47subconscious process cuz if you didn't
23:49get love mirrored to you in healthy ways
23:52growing up, you're going to mirror that
23:53back in the relationship to yourself as
23:55an adult, and then you're going to be
23:56attracted to to unhealthy forms of love
23:58as an adult with other people. So, so,
24:00first pillar of really healing is to
24:02learn to rewire your core wounds. And
24:04[snorts] we can go through an actual
24:06exercise here. So, so, first um step,
24:09there's three steps to doing this.
24:11Let's just say for ease's sake that the
24:12core wound is not good enough, and we
24:13talked about each of them for the
24:14different attachment styles earlier. So,
24:15people can kind of hold that core wound
24:17in their mind that stood out to them,
24:18and you ideally want to work on one at a
24:20time. So, not good enough, what is the
24:22opposite? I am good enough. That part's
24:24really easy.
24:25>> [snorts]
24:25>> The second piece when it comes actually
24:26rewiring these things is I'm not a big
24:29believer in affirmations.
24:31>> [snorts]
24:31>> The reason being that affirmations are
24:32of the conscious mind.
24:34Your conscious mind speaks language,
24:36okay? Your subconscious mind does not
24:38speak language. It doesn't really
24:39understand language much at all.
24:42>> What does a subconscious mind speak?
24:44>> It speaks in emotions and images.
24:46>> [snorts]
24:46>> So, if I say to you, okay, whatever you
24:48do, Jay, do not think of a pink
24:49elephant. Like, you probably flashed an
24:52image of a pink elephant, even though
24:53you you heard do not, your conscious
24:56mind heard do not, and then after you
24:57flash the image and you're like, "Oh, I
24:58shouldn't have thought of the that
24:59elephant." And that's going to our
25:00subconscious also reacts a little bit
25:02more quickly than our conscious mind in
25:03many ways. So, so we have to actually
25:05use our conscious mind to rewire our
25:07subconscious mind, because we can do
25:08that. But, we actually our conscious
25:10mind cannot out will or overpower our
25:12subconscious mind. It can only rewire
25:14it. Part of why you hear people be like,
25:16"Oh, I said I was going to quit eating
25:17chocolate for my New Year's resolution."
25:18and then they go back to eating
25:19chocolate 3 days later cuz unless things
25:21are built into your subconscious, we
25:22really have a hard time changing
25:23behaviors. So, first step, I am not good
25:25enough the opposite of your core wound.
25:27I'll be abandoned, I'm worthy of
25:29connection. I'll be unloved, I'm
25:30lovable, right? So, we we pick the
25:32opposite. Step two
25:34is we need a repetition
25:36of emotions and imagery, because
25:38repetition fires and wires neural
25:40pathways. Emotions and images do it at
25:42the subconscious level.
25:43So, you're like, "How do we find
25:44emotions and images?" Well,
25:46interestingly, every memory we ever have
25:49is a container of emotions and imagery.
25:52>> Yeah, absolutely. So, if you say, "Okay,
25:53what was your favorite childhood
25:54memory?" and you were playing at the
25:55beach or the ocean, and you see the red
25:58bucket, and you see the the waves, and
26:00your family's faces, like you see the
26:01images. And we've all seen when people
26:03have an exciting experience or a happy
26:06memory, they smile or they laugh or
26:08their body language changes. And so,
26:10what we do is we're going to come up
26:11with 10 memories to support the new idea
26:14that we're trying to drive to the
26:15subconscious mind. So, for example, I am
26:17good enough 10 times I actually felt
26:19good enough. And they do not have to be
26:22big. It can be things like, "I was a
26:23good friend last week. I had a hard
26:25conversation with my spouse 2 weeks
26:26ago." Whatever it is. They can be small
26:28things, but we need to just elicit a
26:30little bit of emotion, that imagery of
26:32the memory, and we need 10 of them. Step
26:35three, we record ourselves saying it out
26:37loud. So, ideally, we write them down,
26:38we record ourselves saying it into our
26:40phone. And then our subconscious mind
26:42actually sponges up a lot of information
26:44more effectively when we are in a
26:46suggestible state, meaning our brain is
26:48producing more alpha brain waves. And
26:50so, what we get people to do is to sit
26:51down, they they record themselves saying
26:53this out loud, it takes two minutes to
26:55listen back, and your brain produces a
26:58lot more alpha brain waves after a good
26:59meditation, the first hour that you wake
27:01up before drinking coffee, the last hour
27:03before you go to sleep, after intense
27:05exercise, breath work, these types of
27:07things, you're in more alpha brain wave
27:09mode when your mind is more relaxed,
27:10more still, and then what we're doing is
27:12we're listening back to those things
27:14during that time those
27:15>> In your own voice.
27:16>> In your own voice, exactly. Saying it
27:18out loud, you're listening back, and
27:19you're very much focusing on the images
27:22and the emotion as you feel back in that
27:24suggestible state. And neuro science
27:26research tells us if we are in a
27:28suggestible state, doing that for 21
27:30days builds new neural networks that are
27:33very strong, that they're highly likely
27:35to stick.
27:36And [snorts] what's really interesting
27:37is we we surveyed people who did this.
27:39We're like, okay, let like let's
27:40actually track how people are doing
27:41this. People said they stuck to it every
27:43day for 21 days. We had like tens of It
27:44was 60,000 people who we did the survey
27:46on. People said they did not miss a day
27:48for 21 days reported a 99.7%
27:51score in actually re-wiring the wound.
27:53So, it's highly effective. It's very
27:56simple, and it's something like anybody
27:58can do right now. And if you really
27:59look, like those wounds, those are the
28:02things that wreak havoc on people's
28:03lives and relationships.
28:04>> Yeah.
28:04>> Those are the really painful things that
28:05Those are our relationship baggage that
28:07we're really carrying, and those are why
28:08we keep choosing the wrong scenarios
28:10over and over again, or that that same
28:11unavailable partner. So, really simple
28:13starter tool for re-wiring that's the
28:15one I like to share to begin with. Um
28:17and it's something people can just do at
28:18home from listening. Yeah. And this is
28:20something you help people do in your
28:21school, right? Like this Yeah. So, this
28:23is the transition that you're helping
28:25people build these skills and abilities.
28:27>> Exactly. So, we really focus on we do
28:29these 90-day programs that help people
28:31go through these five pillars and
28:32re-wire each of these pillars at the
28:33subconscious level. That's just the
28:35first pillar of core wounds. And I'm
28:36happy to go through like each of the
28:37pillars and share about them, but um
28:39that's a really good exercise we start
28:40people off with cuz it's highly
28:41effective, it's super simple. There's
28:43other cool tools that you can use as
28:44well, but that a really good one to
28:45start. As people went through our
28:47programs, people reported a 200%
28:50increase in relationship satisfaction,
28:52feeling more connected, more happy, more
28:54fulfilled, 50% less conflict because
28:56people were more regulated and have all
28:58these triggers coming up. And obviously,
29:00like less fighting as a result, feeling
29:02more connected from that perspective.
29:03And then people who are out of a
29:05relationship doing this work on
29:06themselves and just, you know, preparing
29:07to go into dating, reported 300% more um
29:11confidence in their dating life because
29:13they felt like they knew what they
29:13wanted, but also they weren't always
29:15triggered going into dating and
29:16panicking and having all these things
29:18come up, which is really important if
29:19you're going into relationships that
29:21way. Yeah, and I and I assume that
29:23unless you've done this work, even what
29:25you want may not be right or good for
29:27you even consciously or subconsciously,
29:30right? To be honest, like I don't like
29:32to fearmonger people from saying it, but
29:35I've just seen a lot of people over the
29:36years who they, you know, you build a
29:38relationship from insecure attachment
29:40first, and you go in and you're in this
29:42power struggle stage of your
29:43relationship, and you're fighting and
29:44you're going back and forth, and it's
29:45really difficult.
29:47And then people end up sometimes doing
29:49the healing work and being like, "My
29:50partner's not willing to do any work
29:52with me or communicate differently or do
29:54anything, and like maybe I'm in the
29:55wrong relationship." So, there is a risk
29:57if you're not with the right person
29:59um to do that. Now, sometimes people do
30:00the work in relationships, and that's
30:01beautiful, and it's a really powerful,
30:03potent place to be doing the work.
30:05But I always tell people too, like if
30:06that's the case, each person in a
30:08relationship is 100% responsible for
30:10their 50% of the relationship. So, it
30:13can't be one person doing all the
30:14emotional load for for both people. And
30:17work looks different for different
30:18people. It's not always both people
30:19sitting down doing the reprogramming and
30:21and doing the work in in that way, but
30:23one person has to be willing to
30:25practice hashing out conflict, learning,
30:26you know, if one person's following our
30:28communication frameworks, the other
30:29person has to be willing to like listen
30:30and jump in and and move through
30:32conflict that way because otherwise we
30:34don't really get resolution. Yeah.
30:36What's the second If you could summarize
30:37for us the second to the fifth so that
30:39we have a process of what it looks like
30:42to build that relationship with our self
30:44because as you're saying that's the most
30:46important starting point. And I'm
30:48thinking for all of our audience before
30:49we get into
30:50certain relationship dynamics, it might
30:52be useful for them to have a
30:54step-by-step process.
30:55>> Yeah, so the first wound the first
30:57pillar is rewiring your core wounds.
30:59That gives people so much relief and
31:01honestly just as somebody who's done a
31:02lot of this work on myself first, I was
31:03my own first guinea pig, you know, 14,
31:0515 years ago before really getting into
31:07working with people, the biggest change
31:09I noticed is that I used to always be in
31:12this like internal emotional drama. Like
31:14this person is going to abandon me, this
31:16person is going to Can I really trust?
31:18Is this person trying to control me?
31:19Like all of these My mind was so busy.
31:23And when I really did a lot of this
31:25rewiring out of all those painful
31:26patterns, it felt like I had I had so
31:28much space back in my mind. Like I had
31:30space to think of how I wanted to design
31:32my life and create things and just like
31:34room to be present in things and that
31:36was just such a beautiful piece. So
31:38that's pillar number one. Pillar number
31:40two
31:41is people have to learn their own needs
31:44and how to meet them in the relationship
31:46to themselves. We'll get into how to
31:48communicate them after but but in the
31:50relationship to self first and the
31:51reason for this is it reminds me of one
31:54of my favorite quotes from Gabor Maté
31:55and he says, "Trauma are the things that
31:58happened that shouldn't have happened."
32:00That's the obvious like the the abuse,
32:02things like that in childhood. But
32:04trauma's also the things that happened
32:06or that sorry, that didn't happen that
32:08should have happened. And that's the
32:10neglect, you know, or that's that maybe
32:12you didn't feel safe as as a child or
32:13seen or protected or you didn't feel
32:16like your parents were present enough
32:17with you growing up. So that's also
32:19trauma because in a perfect world we
32:20actually would have had our needs met in
32:22a healthy and consistent way where we
32:24felt like we could really rely on
32:25people. And so that's our second pillar
32:27is I get people to go in
32:29and audit what are your biggest unmet
32:31needs from childhood? And [snorts]
32:32you'll see people for some people it's
32:33like I didn't feel like my parents were
32:34present enough with me or I didn't feel
32:36protected or I didn't feel like I had
32:38that ability to really learn from a
32:40parent, or be deeply seen, or known, or
32:43attuned to. I mean, there's there's a
32:44lot of needs in there, but we we give a
32:46big list of needs, and it's okay if
32:47these are your deepest unmet needs.
32:49What's really interesting is we
32:51internalize all of that conditioning.
32:52>> Yes. And so, whatever we didn't get met,
32:54we're often not meeting in the
32:55relationship to self. If somebody wasn't
32:57present enough with you growing up,
32:59that's actually a huge part of healing
33:00is, okay, well, I'm probably not very
33:02present with myself. Or if people said,
33:04I really need validation, I didn't feel
33:05validated growing up,
33:07um unfortunately, usually you're playing
33:09out that programming, and you're the one
33:11struggling to validate yourself the
33:12most, and you're sort of validating
33:13everybody else before you. And so,
33:15what's really beautiful is it's deeply
33:17healing for people to go in, audit where
33:19they're missing these deep needs, and
33:21then for 21 days, through that
33:23repetition and emotion to really fire
33:25and wire those neural networks, we get
33:27people to go through "Care my deepest
33:28unmet needs" and actual actions and
33:31practices to meet them within
33:32relationship to self. And once we do it
33:34for 21 days very repeatedly, and it
33:36elicits this emotional impact, and when
33:37doing it physiologically, so we have
33:39that like imagery that we're reaching
33:41our subconscious mind, we that becomes
33:43our new baseline. It becomes our new set
33:44point, and we just become good at doing
33:45those things. And as an example,
33:48as somebody who did all this work on
33:49myself first 14 years ago, 15 years ago,
33:52>> [snorts]
33:52>> um one of the biggest things I really
33:53wanted was emotional depth. Like I
33:56always cared about that with other
33:58people, and liking to go deep into
33:59things, and I realized, oh my gosh, I'm
34:01trying to and we always do this. We try
34:03to resource from other people the most,
34:05the things we struggle to self-source.
34:07Yes. Yeah, well said. Yeah, we try to
34:09resource the most from other people the
34:11things that we struggle to self-source
34:12the most within self. And so, what ends
34:14up taking place is that we also put all
34:16that pressure on those our
34:17relationships. You know, anxious
34:19attachment styles, for example, they
34:20really struggle to self-soothe, so
34:21they're like, "My partner always needs
34:23to be available to soothe me." Or
34:24fearful avoidants end up being like, "I
34:26don't know if I can trust people. I feel
34:27like they're going to betray me." So,
34:28that person better always to 100%
34:30congruent. They better never tell a
34:32white lie nothing or I can't or you
34:34know, I might have to leave the
34:34relationship or dismissive avoidance.
34:36They end up in situations where they're
34:38going, "Okay, well, I don't you know, I
34:39don't know that that people understand
34:42me."
34:42>> [snorts]
34:42>> And you know, I really need them to
34:44understand me without me having to
34:45communicate because they really struggle
34:47to communicate vulnerably. So, we all
34:49accidentally pressure our external
34:50relationships because we don't know how
34:52to self-source. And so, self-sourcing is
34:53obviously profoundly healing for our
34:55relationships in life. Um but also, it's
34:58profoundly healing in the relationship
35:00to self-first. Where does self-sourcing
35:02come from when you've never had it and
35:04never felt it? Like I think people
35:06struggle to like where do you find it
35:08because
35:09I'll often talk to my friends about this
35:10idea of self-validation.
35:13And I'll talk about how
35:15self-validation is the most powerful
35:17form of validation I've ever given
35:19myself more than any form of external
35:22validation. But often, something they
35:24come up against is like, "Where do you
35:26even find that? Where do you discover
35:27that?" Because if no one's ever
35:29validated you, if you've never
35:31experienced it, where does it appear
35:34from? Okay, so really beautiful
35:35question. So,
35:36there's the analogy I give to people all
35:38the time for this.
35:39It's not the prettiest analogy, but it's
35:41the cold-hard truth.
35:43If you remember the first time you ever
35:44started to drive a car, I remember the
35:46first time I tried to drive a car. I was
35:47so excited to drive a car.
35:49And then I got on the highway and I was
35:50like, "Oh my god,
35:52keep the wheel turn you know, keep
35:53between the lines and look in your
35:54rearview mirror and your side mirrors
35:56and put your signal and oh my like I
35:57just felt like, "Oh my gosh, it's very
35:58mechanical to learn to drive a car."
36:01And then you do it for a while and then
36:02you end up in a situation where you're
36:04you know, a year later or in a pretty
36:06short time later, you know, 30 days
36:07later you're listening to a podcast
36:09while you're driving or listening to
36:10your favorite radio station or putting
36:11on music or talking on the phone to your
36:13friend, whatever it may be.
36:15And it's because what we're actually
36:17doing is doing something that at first
36:18feels mechanical. We're giving to
36:20ourselves what we didn't get and over
36:22time through repetition and emotion, it
36:24actually seeps into our subconscious
36:25mind and that's when it feels normal and
36:27natural. Right. So, what we get people
36:28to do is we actually have a a list of
36:31every major need um that people reported
36:33over collecting all this data, and then
36:34we have people that we have like three
36:35or four hey, you can do these three or
36:37four things that are usually the
36:38healthiest, most direct ways of getting
36:40those needs met, and then we get them to
36:41actively practice it across that 21
36:43days. So, for example, self-validation
36:45is usually things like it can be as
36:46small as just writing out three of your
36:48wins each day, and just taking the time
36:50to really pause and be like, "Hey, I did
36:51this today. I'm proud of these things
36:52that I did, big or small." It can be
36:53like, "I made it to work early." but
36:56just having that ability to start
36:58training your subconscious mind to
36:59practice recognizing those things in
37:01your life. And of course, there's a
37:02slightly different one for for each
37:03need, but when people start giving those
37:05needs to themselves, this sounds very
37:07cliché, but I really believe that if we
37:10had attachment wounds growing up,
37:12healing really happens when we become
37:14our own parents. And instead of trying
37:16to externalize our parents should have
37:17done it for us or perfectly like our
37:19parents are human beings, too. And so,
37:21when we give to ourselves what we felt
37:22like we couldn't access through them,
37:23and we do it through that repetition,
37:25that's that second big pillar.
37:27Understood. Got it. Very clear. Yeah,
37:28no, I'm glad that you clarified that
37:31piece about validation, and and I assume
37:32what I'm hearing from you is it is
37:34practice.
37:36It is
37:37going to feel a bit awkward and
37:38uncomfortable,
37:40but there isn't another magic pill there
37:42or any piece of advice that solves it.
37:44It's like we're going to have to build
37:46that muscle 100%.
37:48>> over time of learning to validate
37:49ourselves, which we just haven't
37:51developed. What
37:51>> Exactly. Oh, and just the last thing is
37:53you can look in the seven areas of life
37:54for for it. If some people are just
37:55really stuck, they sit at the sheet and
37:56they're like, "Okay, three wins, I have
37:58no idea." You can look through career,
38:00financial, mental, emotional, spiritual,
38:03physical, relationships. You can even
38:04break relationships down into friends,
38:06family, romantic. And sometimes that
38:08helps, like those prompts can get the
38:09wheels turning. And it starts as
38:11something that you're sitting there
38:12doing, but it becomes something that
38:14usually by day seven or so, people are
38:16like, "Oh, yeah, this is this. Oh, it's
38:18three." Like that took me 2 seconds. Oh,
38:19and and then what's really beautiful is
38:21we have this mechanism in our brain
38:22called the reticular activating system,
38:24and it's our filtering system of
38:25information. People always talk about
38:27this in the personal Oh, if you you
38:29know, see a car and you're trying to buy
38:30a white Jeep, you're going to see a
38:31white Jeep everywhere. It is. It's your
38:32filtering system in that way, but it
38:34also filters information according to
38:36what we already believe.
38:38Um and so, you know, if your core
38:40beliefs are working against you, then
38:41that that becomes problematic. But, if
38:43you rewire them in pillar one, that
38:44helps a lot. Um but also, it it it
38:46according to the information you're
38:47really giving and taking in repeatedly,
38:50you start noticing more and more. It
38:51sort of opens up that filtering system
38:53to notice those things. So, what's
38:54really beautiful is when people start
38:55doing that work, they often end up in a
38:57situation where they're going,
38:59"Oh, yeah. I did have this one." Oh, and
39:01they notice it in real time throughout
39:02the day, and they feel it. And so, it
39:04really gives that ability to start
39:05noticing that in a more natural way
39:07across time. Absolutely. And step three?
39:10So, the third pillar is nervous system
39:12work. So, we always hear things like
39:15people are in sympathetic mode, you
39:17know, fight, flight, freeze, or fawn
39:18mode, or parasympathetic mode. It's
39:20actually particularly to attachment
39:22styles because all three insecure
39:24attachment styles spend far too much
39:26time in fight or flight. Interesting.
39:29>> Yes. And it's because if you grow up in
39:31an environment where you don't feel
39:32fully safe because your needs are not
39:34not met consistently enough, and if you
39:35have more bears in the woods, aka core
39:37wounds or triggers, then you spend more
39:39time on high alert in various ways. So,
39:41anxious attachment styles are very on
39:42alert about when people are going to
39:43abandon them. Dismissive-avoidants are
39:45very much on high alert about are they
39:46going to feel rejected and seem like
39:47they're defective or shamed, and they do
39:49they need to create space and not take,
39:51you know, not be a burden to anybody.
39:53And fearful-avoidants [snorts] are are
39:54hypervigilant about everything.
39:56About all of the above. And so, um you
39:58know, what ends up happening is your
39:59nervous system's in overdrive. And a big
40:02part of healing is learning to get back
40:04into your body. I've actually found
40:06deeply that each of the three insecure
40:08attachment styles struggles at the
40:09beginning to identify their emotions in
40:10real time, which is a form of
40:12dissociation. Like, people often think
40:14of dissociation as being this really
40:15traumatic, catatonic thing, but it's
40:17not. People can spend a lot of time in
40:19mild dissociation. So, we do a couple of
40:22things. We we take people through a
40:24process of retraining their nervous
40:25systems to do things like completion
40:27cycle work and and a lot of that sort of
40:29polyvagal theory work to to actually
40:31practice getting into parasympathetic
40:33nervous system over time so it becomes
40:35your new baseline. But we also one of my
40:38favorite practices and I was saying this
40:40to you before we recorded it is
40:42when I started really diving deep into a
40:44lot of this work I did
40:4613 different certifications and
40:47everything from like CBT cognitive
40:49behavioral therapy to neuro linguistic
40:50programming and hypnosis and just all
40:52this stuff, but I was actually like
40:53really rooted in a lot of studying all
40:56different religions. Like I was really
40:58obsessed with spirituality and on sort
40:59of a spiritual journey and I've always
41:01loved where those two things intersect.
41:04And I remember actually reading years
41:06ago one of Eckhart Tolle's books and it
41:08was all about the pain body. And at the
41:10time I was reading these case studies on
41:12these individuals and they go into the
41:15researchers were taking individuals and
41:16putting them in fMRI scanners and they
41:19were getting them in these fMRI scanners
41:21to
41:22recall triggering experiences where they
41:24felt upset. And then they were watching
41:27their brain activity and what they found
41:29is that participants brain activity when
41:31they would feel triggered would drain
41:33out of the neocortex regions like the
41:35prefrontal cortex region of the brain
41:37and into the reptilian brain. And all
41:39this activity would come there and we've
41:41all seen people in their trigger. They
41:42become kind of the like reptilian
41:44animalistic version of themselves. And
41:46so all of a sudden people would be
41:47sitting there in [snorts] this sort of
41:49panicked state and what they would find
41:53is that people would start being
41:54dysregulated. Like they would be in
41:56sympathetic nervous system fight or
41:57flight. They would see their heart rate
41:58increase. Their their
42:00you know, hair on the back of their neck
42:01often stand up.
42:03And then what they had participants do
42:06is they had them
42:08practice just witnessing their emotions
42:10in their body
42:11and labeling the sensations, which is a
42:13form of somatic processing. And they had
42:16them say, "Okay, you know, in this
42:17experience, instead of being so stuck in
42:18the story in their mind, they had them
42:20go, 'Oh, I feel, you know, anger, and
42:23anger feels like heat across my chest
42:25and down my arms, or I feel anxiety, and
42:27that feels like butterflies in my
42:29stomach, and a ball in my throat, and a
42:30clenching in my jaw.'" And when they
42:32actually had people go through this,
42:34they found that all this brain activity
42:36came back online in the the neocortex
42:39regions of the brain. And it was so
42:40interesting cuz Eckhart Tolle has this
42:41thing, "Oh, the pain body, witness your
42:42emotion," or you know, being a witness
42:44in consciousness, consciousness. And
42:46it's so beautiful to see people practice
42:48that because in real time when they are
42:50triggered, before they're doing a lot of
42:52wound re-wiring and meeting their needs,
42:54a really powerful practice is to do that
42:56form of somatic processing work, which
42:58is, yes, do things to train your nervous
43:00system through breath work or meditation
43:02daily. All of those things are amazing,
43:03but in those moments throughout the day
43:05where you feel those emotions arise,
43:07practicing witnessing the sensations,
43:09being with the sensations, noticing what
43:11those sensations feel like in your body,
43:12it actually takes the emotional charge
43:14down quite strongly, and it gives people
43:16the opportunity to feel re-regulated and
43:18back to more of their conscious mind
43:20self again. And so, you know, we get
43:22people to practice that on a regular
43:23basis, and it's powerful for emotional
43:25regulation, but my favorite part of it
43:27is that it gives you the gift of
43:30self-attunement. Because rather than
43:32being in a position where, "Oh, we feel
43:34emotion, let's like hide it through
43:36scrolling on social media, or turning on
43:37the TV, or drinking a beer, or whatever
43:39it might be,"
43:40it's actually the practice of learning
43:42in hard moments to come back and return
43:45to being fully present within oneself.
43:47Yes, absolutely. I mean, just listening
43:49to you say that, it's almost like we're
43:51getting to a place not only of
43:53self-security or self-soothing, it's
43:56self-regulation.
43:58And we're gaining the ability to not
43:59expect our partner to regulate our
44:01emotions, regulate our nervous system,
44:03which is contagious, and And are going
44:05to,
44:06you know, blend and bond in energy, but
44:09I feel so many of us our nervous system
44:10is completely dependent on everyone else
44:13around us, and therefore we can feel
44:15really good when we're with someone,
44:16feel really bad when we're with someone
44:17else, and we have no control anymore.
44:20So, Tiyese, tell us about pillar four.
44:22So, pillar four is what you actually
44:24said this a moment ago, and I thought
44:25this was You were like on the money. You
44:26knew it was coming. So, you mentioned um
44:29regulation, so people are regulating
44:30through other people.
44:32And what I actually found over and over
44:34again for people is that people can't
44:36coregulate very effectively in
44:37relationships if they have no ability to
44:39self self-regulate on their own, because
44:40it goes back to that kind of concept
44:42where they overpressure the person to
44:43kind of do it for them. And that may
44:45work in specific cases for periods of
44:47time, like oh, you have a friend there
44:48and they really help you and they make
44:49you feel better,
44:51but like let's take an anxious
44:52attachment style, somebody who's very
44:53anxiously attached, for example.
44:55They would usually end up in these
44:56themes or patterns over time where they
44:58would always be relying on their friends
44:59to do that, and then eventually their
45:00friends say, "Well, they always come to
45:02me for stuff, but then they don't change
45:04their patterns or behaviors." And then
45:05the friend starts kind of drifting back
45:07or pulling away or not being as present,
45:09and then the anxious person gets
45:11frustrated or stressed, and then the the
45:13other friend is becoming more resentful,
45:15and it just What may work in the short
45:17term isn't really working in the long
45:18term unless we learn to to
45:20self-regulate. So, in those five
45:23pillars, the first three are all about
45:25self. They're all about how do I heal my
45:26own internal conditioning, rewire the
45:28wounds, meet my own needs, regulate my
45:30own nervous system. The next two are
45:32actually about regulating with. So, with
45:34people together. So, the next two
45:35pillars are about communication and
45:37boundaries.
45:39So, what we do for the communication
45:40pillar number four is now that we know
45:42our needs, we can go communicate about
45:44them. And what often happens is people
45:45go through life
45:47and they they don't even know what they
45:48need in a relationship.
45:50>> And then we're left saying things like,
45:51"Oh, you hurt me when you did this." And
45:53I've seen this all the time with
45:54communication. Even if people are so
45:56well-meaning when they say, "Hey," even
45:58if they're trying to be vulnerable and
45:59they're saying, "Hey, you hurt me last
46:01week when XYZ [snorts] happened," The
46:03other partner is like, "Okay, I don't
46:05want to hurt you, but I don't know how
46:07to solve for it."
46:08>> Yes. Yes.
46:08>> And unless we're actually empowered to
46:10know what we need, then we can't say
46:12those things properly. So, the
46:13communication pillar is about us taking
46:16our learning and understanding of self
46:17now. We know our triggers, we know our
46:19needs, now we are equipped to do the
46:21work with other people. And so, what I
46:23get people to do, and it depends like we
46:24have a couple of frameworks, but one is
46:26whenever we are in a conflict, like if
46:28that's ever coming up for us, people
46:30feel very resolved in conflicts when
46:32they do basically three things. Both
46:34parties have to communicate what came up
46:36for them in the conflict, and then
46:38validate each other's emotions, step
46:40one. Okay, so validate each other's
46:41emotions. Step two, then we have to say
46:42what we actually need. And step three,
46:45we have to paint a picture of what that
46:46looks like.
46:47>> Yes. Because I ran far too many times
46:49into situations with couples who I
46:50remember working with with a couple once
46:52years ago, and and it was a husband and
46:53wife, and they they had this
46:55conversation. The wife said, "I I need
46:57to feel more supported in this
46:58relationship." And I was like a year
47:00into working with with couples, and they
47:03seemed to have a really constructive
47:04conversation about it. And they laughed,
47:06and they came back the next week, and
47:08literally before they sat on the couch,
47:10like they didn't even finish sitting
47:11down, and and the wife said, "My husband
47:14didn't even support me this week. We
47:15talked about it, and he didn't even
47:16try." And the husband like looked
47:18shocked, and he was like, "What do you
47:20mean? I took out the trash, I did the
47:22dishes, I tried to help out around the
47:23house." And she was like, "Oh, but
47:25support for me is somebody actually like
47:28giving me encouragement and words of
47:29affirmation, and telling me like they
47:31love me, they appreciate me, noticing my
47:33hard work. That's support." And so, we
47:35have to paint the picture of what the
47:36need looks like, so so it's clear. So,
47:38for example, let's say two people are in
47:39a conflict,
47:41and let's say it's an anxious and a
47:42dismissive-avoidant, and the anxious
47:43person is saying, "Hey, like you're not
47:45calling me enough."
47:46Often, what happens when people try to
47:49communicate is they do what we call
47:50negative framing. So, you know, and I
47:52always say to people, behind every
47:53criticism is just a need. Yeah.
47:55>> And we say, "You don't care about me.
47:57You didn't call me enough. You didn't
47:58make an effort." And all that people
48:01hear when that happens is that you're
48:02criticizing them.
48:03>> Yeah. And all people are going to do is
48:04shut down because as a child when you
48:06were criticized, what happened?
48:07>> Yeah. You then got punished. So, now
48:08you're bracing for punishment, not
48:10trying to figure out and decipher what
48:11somebody's needs are.
48:11>> So right. So, we would get people to
48:13say, "Okay, let's reframe you know,
48:16behind that actual experience, what is
48:18the need? Convert your criticism into a
48:20need." And it's like, "Okay, well, if
48:21you said you didn't call me enough,
48:22obviously the need is for more
48:23consistency in in calling or
48:25communication." Good, paint the picture.
48:27What does that actually look like? "Oh,
48:28that looks like a call every evening for
48:3015 minutes before bed." Or once a week,
48:32whatever it is, we got to get really
48:33specific cuz otherwise it gets lost in
48:35translation like 90% of the time.
48:37>> Yeah. So, what we do is we get people to
48:38say, "Hey, this is what came up for me."
48:40So, for example, "Hey, I felt a little
48:41bit hurt this week because I didn't hear
48:44from you as much as I hoped to. And can
48:47we do a call every evening before bed
48:48for 15 minutes?" And when they're able
48:50to say that, now we actually have
48:51constructive communication. And then we
48:53flip it back around because if there was
48:55a conflict, usually there's two sides.
48:57And then maybe the person on the other
48:59side if it originally wasn't done well,
49:00they say, "Oh." Like if somebody was a
49:01little bit critical, they might say,
49:03"Okay, I hear your need. [snorts] I can
49:04see why you felt like that." So, they
49:05validate the person's feelings. And then
49:07they turn around and they get to say,
49:09"Okay, and you know, for me, I'm a
49:11little sensitive if communication is
49:12harsh or a little critical. And not that
49:14that example was harsh, but oftentimes
49:16that's how it starts. And so, they might
49:17say, you know, can you just be a little
49:19bit more mindful with your delivery next
49:20time? And then I'll be more mindful in
49:22terms of communicating and calling more
49:23consistently. I think we can make that
49:25work." And that's how we really resolve.
49:26So, each person expresses their feeling
49:28and gets it validated, shares their
49:30need, paints a picture for what it looks
49:32like. And it's something you can
49:33actually train yourself to do naturally.
49:36And we get people to get into the the
49:38mindset of going feeling need, feeling
49:39need. Like just know your feelings and
49:41needs and have it top of mind. And if
49:42each person feels like they're able to
49:43communicate it that way, that's where we
49:45get real resolution. And then that's
49:46where we get actual breakthroughs. And I
49:48truly believe that doing the work
49:50together in a relationship to become
49:52secure, you have to become good at
49:54having those conversations. I feel like
49:56a lot of people struggle
49:58to do that for two reasons. One is
50:01when they're saying their need, their
50:03need is based on their attachment style.
50:06And if it's one of the anxious
50:07attachment styles, often their need
50:10can feel like a burden to the other
50:11person because it's such a intense
50:14demand. Where the other person just
50:16goes, and so we're So, a lot of people
50:19know that their need is intense.
50:21Therefore, they won't verbalize it
50:23because they actually think it will push
50:24the other person away.
50:26So, if they don't say it, it brews up,
50:29and then one day it pops up and you
50:30break up anyway.
50:32Or they say it, it's a burden to the
50:34other person, and the other person goes,
50:36"Well, I can't do that." And then they
50:38walk away.
50:39So, how do we know our need is valid or
50:43is realistic?
50:45And
50:46how do we know if the if our partner is
50:48even should be capable of doing that
50:50need? Because I think a lot of people
50:52will be like, "Well, my need is
50:54every day I need someone to tell me I'm
50:56beautiful and amazing." Or "Every day I
50:58need You know, and it's like, well,
51:00maybe someone else doesn't have the
51:01capacity to do that.
51:03>> Okay, so I love this question, and this
51:04is why we do 90-day frameworks for
51:06people and the first 30 days are
51:07re-wiring your core wounds first. Mhm.
51:09Because then you don't have these things
51:11that are causing a lot of that negative
51:12internal dialogue that will then
51:13over-pressure you to source from
51:15somebody else. So, if if somebody feels
51:16not good enough, they're going to be
51:17like, "You better tell me I'm good
51:18enough all day every day."
51:19>> Yeah. But if we learn to do the
51:20re-wiring first is pillar number one.
51:23>> And then pillar number two is that we
51:24learn to self-source because now we're
51:25filling our cup halfway. And what's
51:27really powerful, as soon as we start
51:28self-sourcing, we we ingrain that in
51:30that first 30 days, well, now all of a
51:32sudden, there's not this crazy amount of
51:33pressure, and now it's really clear to
51:35say, "This is what I So, by the time you
51:37get to this stage,
51:38>> Exactly.
51:39>> is actually already more reasonable and
51:41thoughtful. Exactly.
51:43>> is if you jump to this stage too quick,
51:45Yes. you could end up asking for
51:47something you should be self-sourcing
51:49for.
51:49>> Exactly. And and That makes a lot of
51:51sense. Yeah, and that's where it's
51:52really important. I love that you asked
51:54that because what ends up happening far
51:56too often and and this is a really crazy
51:57part of this is because our subconscious
51:59mind wants to maintain its comfort zone
52:01because it equates familiarity to safety
52:02and survival. So frequently,
52:05people think that they want somebody to
52:07to give them their need and that's the
52:09solution. And let's take like typical
52:11examples. Say somebody has their
52:12anxiously attached, they believe they're
52:13not good enough. So now just by that,
52:15they they have more negative internal
52:16dialogue. They're criticizing
52:17themselves, sort of magnifying their
52:19mistakes, minimizing their their wins in
52:21their own natural set point of their
52:22conditioning. Then they are often not
52:25meeting their own need to feel, you
52:26know, good enough or validated or
52:28reassured. So now [snorts] they have
52:29what we what I call like a hole in your
52:31bucket. Like you're going to go and
52:33because the subconscious mind will only
52:35receive well what's familiar because it
52:38equates it to safety, then you go and
52:40you say, "Oh, hey, tell me I'm good
52:41enough. Tell me all these things." But
52:42then it's like there's a hole in the
52:44bucket. It feels really good when that
52:45that water is going into the bucket. You
52:46get that initial hit of dopamine. Oh my
52:48god, my partner said I'm good enough.
52:50And then it just leaks right out. And
52:52then that's why you see anxious
52:53attachment styles needing so much of
52:55that because they first struggle with
52:57those two pillars so profoundly. And
52:59that's where we get, you know, confused
53:00in relationships because then we're
53:02like, "You you need to do this. You need
53:03to do that."
53:04>> Yeah. And then when it becomes
53:05unreasonable because it's coming from
53:06lack and imbalance first, then it puts
53:08too much pressure on relationships and
53:09becomes problematic.
53:10>> That that completely makes sense now and
53:12and I
53:13and I'm thinking about a lot of people
53:14that I know who
53:16sadly feel a lot of shame and guilt for
53:18their needs from their attachment style.
53:21But without doing this work in this
53:23order as the pillars are being
53:25developed, you'll never actually request
53:28something in a healthy way
53:30that natural and your schedule push
53:32someone away because it probably will
53:34because it's coming from an anxious
53:36attachment style.
53:37>> Yeah, 100%.
53:38>> Tay, please tell us about pillar five.
53:40Okay, so the last pillar is healthy
53:42boundaries.
53:43>> [snorts]
53:43>> So, healthy boundaries when people hear
53:45them,
53:46I think some people think especially
53:47more anxious attachment styles think
53:48that boundaries mean a separation. But
53:51truly every boundary is a joining
53:53because a boundary is an authentic
53:55expression of your true yeses and your
53:57no's, which is an authentic expression
53:58of you as a whole human being. And so,
54:01you know, when we look at boundaries per
54:02attachment style, there's unique
54:03patterns. This is when I was like,
54:05"Whoa, you use your attachment style
54:06[laughter] that you have these things
54:07with boundaries." Anxious attachment
54:08styles are kind of boundary-less. Like
54:10if they're really anxiously attached,
54:11they struggle with boundaries all
54:12together. And so, they're going to end
54:14up people-pleasing into oblivion. They
54:16get scared to set boundaries cuz they
54:18believe that boundaries are going to get
54:19them abandoned or disliked or rejected.
54:21Part of also why we do the core wound
54:22work first in that order. Um and so,
54:25they end up just struggling with
54:26boundaries at all.
54:27>> [snorts]
54:27>> Dismissive avoidants, they set too
54:29strong of boundaries. They're scared to
54:30make compromises because they equate
54:32that to vulnerability. And so, they end
54:34up keeping distance and saying, you
54:35know, they're the types that instead of
54:36saying, "Hey, I've had a long week. It's
54:38Friday. I'm tired. Instead of going out,
54:40can we just stay in and watch a movie?"
54:41Instead of setting a small boundaries
54:43and requesting those needs within that
54:44framework, they'll instead go,
54:47"Canceling. Not coming over. Sorry, I'm
54:48not going to be there." And it's because
54:50they have these huge boundaries cuz they
54:51don't know how to coregulate and
54:52communicate in that way. And so, then we
54:55have fearful avoidants and fearful
54:56avoidants are very interesting with
54:57their boundaries. I I call it the the
54:59fearful avoidant boundary cycle where
55:00they
55:01are boundary-less at first cuz they
55:03start to people-please usually.
55:05Then they get frustrated because they're
55:06very generous. They tend to overgive and
55:08kind of under-receive. So, they they set
55:10you know, no boundaries. They're super
55:12generous. And then they're you know,
55:13they eventually are like, "Oh, I feel
55:15taken advantage of." And then they get
55:16really triggered cuz they've got a lot
55:17of big core wounds. And then they get
55:18angry and they set boundaries from anger
55:20or frustration. And they say things
55:21harshly or critically. And sometimes
55:23they're a little bit, you know, too
55:24harsh or critical. And then they feel
55:26terribly guilty about it and they go
55:27back to having no boundaries. So,
55:28they're like,
55:29>> Yes. no boundaries, get frustrated,
55:31express anger, feel guilty, go back to
55:33no boundaries. And they kind of just go
55:34around in a loop. Um and so, what we get
55:36people to do is first and it actually
55:39has to be done in order and and
55:41I'll speak from personal examples, but
55:42this is what I would see replicated with
55:44like thousands of people. When I was
55:45first doing boundary work, I knew I had
55:48to do boundary work. I was like I really
55:49struggle with boundaries. So I read all
55:51these boundary books and I I learned
55:53about boundaries and I read, you know,
55:54publications on boundaries and all these
55:56things
55:57and yet
55:58I would get into situations and I would
56:00be sitting in a situation being like, I
56:02know this is where I should set the
56:03boundary, but I would clam up and I
56:05wouldn't do it.
56:06Because
56:07I didn't realize that I still had core
56:10wounds around my boundaries. So
56:12consciously I'm like set a boundary and
56:14too many people intellectualize
56:15boundaries as this concept, but you're
56:17not actually going to do it in real time
56:19until you first read cuz if your
56:20conscious mind says set the boundary,
56:21your subconscious mind says, no, I'm
56:23going to be unsafe and as a child I had
56:25some kind of heavy-handed punishments at
56:26times for setting a boundary or saying
56:28no. So my my subconscious mind says
56:30boundaries equals unsafety rather than
56:32safety and a healthy dynamic, that's
56:34what your your brain would think. And so
56:36then I would in real time clam up, not
56:37say it and then be like walk away going,
56:39why didn't I set the boundary? So what
56:41we get people to do is step one
56:43know your boundaries. We get people to
56:44audit their boundaries in the seven
56:45areas of life, go through career, where
56:46are you lacking boundaries, financial
56:48area of life, etc. through the seven
56:49areas. Then we get people to say, okay,
56:52if I set a boundary, what am I afraid
56:53will happen or what do I make it mean?
56:55It's a good way to surface some of your
56:56subconscious stuff that may be there.
56:58Oh, if I set a boundary then I'm going
56:59to be abandoned. If I set a boundary,
57:00people are going to reject me or think
57:02that I'm a burden, you know, you can
57:03really see what comes up. And then we
57:05get people to rewire using some rewiring
57:07techniques that fear of setting
57:09boundaries and then practice doing
57:10exposure work, which means you don't go
57:12set your your first boundary with your
57:14boss who you think has narcissistic
57:15personality disorder cuz your brain's
57:17not going to take that very well. We set
57:19boundaries with, you know, small
57:20boundaries with trusted people like ask
57:22a co-worker you love, hey, can you bring
57:24back my stapler when you borrow it? Like
57:25the small things first so your brain we
57:28try to set one boundary a day a day so
57:29your brain gets the repetition and
57:31emotion of seeing that incrementalism
57:33work and you've rewired the core fear
57:35that was stopping you from setting
57:36boundaries in real time. And what I
57:38found in my own life and what I've seen
57:39with thousands of people is that unless
57:41you're actually doing boundary work at
57:42the subconscious level, you can know it,
57:44you can intellectualize it, but it's not
57:46actually going to change things. That
57:47makes so much sense. Is in your program,
57:50because you have so many daily
57:52tasks, Yeah. how how are people
57:55interacting with you, your team or or
57:57with these tasks on a daily basis? How
57:59does it work?
58:00>> Yeah, so what we do is we get people to
58:01go through 90 days, they do like one
58:03pillar at a time and we get them to
58:05start with the reprogramming pillar. Um,
58:07we actually have, you know, a people
58:09come in, they take their actual program.
58:11It's a course for each pillar, so they
58:13can go through, take the course and then
58:14we have two events per day. So, I'm in
58:17there three days a week with our
58:17students. We have colleagues in there so
58:20that they actually have two events every
58:21day, just at different time zones,
58:23things like that, so people can get in
58:24there. We have um, events that help
58:26people actually practice the tools and
58:28model out, especially for communication
58:29and boundary setting, like they actually
58:31get to practice it. They get feedback,
58:33it's relayed back to them and then we
58:34teach classes about the tools in more
58:36depth, you ask questions in the chat,
58:38then we have live questions at the end,
58:39so people can really get in there and
58:40like
58:41form those skills across time as they go
58:43through each of those pillars. Yeah,
58:45it's a real commitment. People are
58:47People are really doing the work.
58:49Absolutely and we set it up so that it's
58:52really only like two to three minutes a
58:53day that people need. They don't have to
58:55come into those events to get the
58:56results, but they have the support there
58:58if they need it. And what's really
58:59beautiful, too, is that people end up
59:01making all these friends and they're
59:02like people make friends from all sorts
59:03of parts of the world and they can stay
59:04after the events and chat with each
59:05other in the breakout rooms, but we set
59:07it up so that we try to keep it as
59:09simple as possible. Here's your course,
59:11the course is only like two hours long
59:13or so, they can go, they can take the
59:15course, get the follow-up support, but
59:16the course will have, hey, here's your
59:18daily exercise for the next 21 days,
59:20then you finish that one, okay, here's
59:22your next daily pillar for 21 days and
59:24it takes, you know, the very small
59:25exercises.
59:26>> brilliant. It's so well structured. It
59:28Thank you so Just Just hearing about it
59:29makes it feel so It feels like such a
59:32seamless process because you're getting
59:33to exclusively focus on one thing at a
59:35time as opposed to like a million habits
59:37that we're all trying to develop.
59:39>> Exactly. Uh Thais, we wanted to ask you
59:41about real-life scenarios.
59:43>> Okay, love it.
59:43>> Because we feel that, you know, when you
59:46look at all of these attachment styles,
59:47really the way we experience them is in
59:51a relationship or when we start dating.
59:53So,
59:54here are some real-life scenarios. One
59:56partner is anxious and the other is
59:58avoidant. The anxious partner clings,
1:00:01the avoidant pulls away. How do they
1:00:03break that cycle instead of repeating
1:00:05it? Okay, so really good question. So,
1:00:07first thing is we do do that work. Like
1:00:09the actual way is not going to be to
1:00:11will yourself through it, which
1:00:12unfortunately sadly so many people are
1:00:14like, "Oh, we're just going to try to
1:00:15you know, self-silence and not say what
1:00:17we need." And then it comes out in a
1:00:18negative way. So, first thing is you do
1:00:20the rewiring work. Then we actually
1:00:22start to What if they don't want to do
1:00:23that work, though? Okay, great question.
1:00:24So, here's what we do in that case. So,
1:00:26this is actually I would see this in
1:00:27terms of working with couples,
1:00:29um where somebody's like, "I'm not going
1:00:30to be doing the self-work. We're not
1:00:32really going to be moving from that
1:00:33perspective." Well, people tend to think
1:00:36that because people have different
1:00:37needs, that different needs mean
1:00:39mutually exclusive needs, okay? Which is
1:00:41not the case. So, people think like
1:00:43typical scenario, anxious attachment
1:00:45style in exactly that scenario you said,
1:00:47"What do they want? They What's their
1:00:47need?" More time together. What's the
1:00:49dismissive avoidant's need? More space,
1:00:51more freedom, more autonomy. So, what we
1:00:53do in that case is just because somebody
1:00:55wants more time and somebody wants more
1:00:56space,
1:00:57doesn't mean that that that can't work.
1:01:00What we get people to do is talk it out
1:01:01from that feeling need framework enough
1:01:03where you have pockets of time to meet
1:01:05both each other's needs. So,
1:01:07you'll probably see this,
1:01:08but whenever we we have a a trigger, we
1:01:11always think of the worst-case scenario,
1:01:12right? We jump to the worst-case
1:01:13conclusion. So, dismissive avoidants,
1:01:15when somebody's like, "Well, I want more
1:01:16time," they're like, "You're going to
1:01:18take over my life." Like they think you
1:01:20Oh, you want like 7 hours every evening
1:01:21together. Like
1:01:22>> Yeah. Or or they're thinking, "Well, I
1:01:23just gave you time this weekend. Like we
1:01:25were just hanging out. Like that How
1:01:27much more can I give you?"
1:01:28>> Exactly. And then, when dismissive
1:01:30avoidants say, "I need more space or
1:01:32time to myself," anxious attachment
1:01:33styles are like, "You're leaving me.
1:01:34You're abandoning me."
1:01:35>> Yeah, and it's because of me. It's like
1:01:36you want to get away from me.
1:01:38>> 100% and instead it's because they they
1:01:40struggle to coregulate. So, what we get
1:01:42people to do is the feeling need
1:01:43framework. They each say what they feel.
1:01:45Hey, this will comes up for me. Then
1:01:47it's a beautiful opportunity to say, "I
1:01:48need space because that's how I
1:01:49recharge. I need time because that's
1:01:52when I feel connected." So, now they
1:01:53actually understand what's going on. And
1:01:55then, okay, what do we need? Paint the
1:01:57picture. And when people paint the
1:01:59picture, they realize it's actually very
1:02:00reasonable from both ends. Usually, an
1:02:03anxious attachment style will say,
1:02:04"Okay, you know, what can I actually do
1:02:06as a baseline in terms of how much time
1:02:07I need together? I think two nights a
1:02:09week would be, you know, acceptable for
1:02:11me. And then maybe a 15-minute phone
1:02:13call a couple other nights a week. I
1:02:14could do that. And if I know that we're
1:02:15going to do that and commit to that, I
1:02:17can feel good about that." And then
1:02:19dismissive avoidants, they're not going,
1:02:21"Oh, you want to spend every night with
1:02:22me all day every day. You know, you want
1:02:23to take up my whole life." They're like,
1:02:24"Oh, two evenings a week? And then I can
1:02:26do my own thing on Sunday afternoon. I
1:02:28can do my own thing on Monday, Tuesday
1:02:29evenings. And I have, you know, all this
1:02:30other time to see friends, whatever it
1:02:32might be."
1:02:33Okay, that's actually feasible. So, what
1:02:34I find is even if people don't want to
1:02:36do the work, if they can communicate
1:02:37very clearly and specifically use that
1:02:39ingredient of painting a picture for
1:02:41what that looks like, we resolve a lot
1:02:43of those projected fears that cause
1:02:45those miscommunications to begin with
1:02:47and now things can really work together.
1:02:49Do you think it's possible
1:02:51to be in a relationship with someone
1:02:53who's not willing to have these
1:02:54conversations? It's a great question.
1:02:57I'll be really honest.
1:02:59Um what I believe is that you know, a
1:03:02lot and I'll say this a lot. One person
1:03:03can lead the way, okay? So, so I see a
1:03:06lot of time one person starts doing the
1:03:07work, they learn to communicate, they
1:03:08become really good at it. And the other
1:03:10person, like once they see their partner
1:03:12communicating so healthily and they're
1:03:13regulated and they're not so triggered
1:03:15from their wounds and they're so clear
1:03:16about their needs, the vast majority of
1:03:18time it gives the other person
1:03:19permission to do the same and they
1:03:21follow their lead. But, I will say in in
1:03:23roughly 10% of cases, somebody's in a
1:03:25position where they're like, "I'm not
1:03:26doing any of this stuff. I don't want to
1:03:28communicate. I don't want to have these
1:03:29conversations about your your needs. I'm
1:03:32I'm sorry. I'm I'm not going to do that
1:03:33at all." It's usually from their own
1:03:34woundedness that their unwillingness is
1:03:36there. But, I say to people like, "Hey,
1:03:38if that's the case." I tell people set a
1:03:40deadline. Try your living heart out. Do
1:03:43everything you can and the deadlines are
1:03:44going to be 90 days. It might be 6
1:03:46months if you're in a longer-term
1:03:48relationship or if you're in a marriage
1:03:49with children, it might be a year or a
1:03:50year and a half. Do everything you can
1:03:53as that one person in that period of
1:03:54time to show up the best that you can.
1:03:57You know, without your wounds, know your
1:03:59needs, regulate your nervous system,
1:04:00communicate beautifully, set healthy
1:04:02boundaries.
1:04:03If it doesn't work and the person's
1:04:04literally unwilling at the end of that
1:04:06period of time,
1:04:07your only choice if you want to be in a
1:04:09healthy relationship is probably to walk
1:04:10away. And that's because you're going to
1:04:12if you're not happy in that situation,
1:04:14you can't not have one person doing the
1:04:16emotional labor for for both people. And
1:04:18then usually what happens is you're
1:04:20positioned for a win-win because you
1:04:22have healed so much and you're going to
1:04:23be in a place where you feel stable and
1:04:25emotionally well enough to walk away
1:04:26from something that may actually not be
1:04:27a fit for you.
1:04:29And and so you're okay and you also
1:04:31know, I can walk away guilt and regret
1:04:33free. I tried everything. Or, your best
1:04:35case scenario is 90% of the time the
1:04:37other person jumps on board and the
1:04:38relationship evolves because you led the
1:04:39way. Yeah. How do How does attachment
1:04:42theory explain love bombing?
1:04:44Great question.
1:04:45So, love bombing I think of as as
1:04:48existing along a continuum. Love bombing
1:04:50in extreme cases is usually because of
1:04:52narcissistic personality disorder and
1:04:54that's somebody love bombing with the
1:04:56premeditated intention to win you over
1:04:58as a means of control.
1:05:00Um, but what actually happens in if we
1:05:02look way further down the continuum,
1:05:04love bombing can be more from a a place
1:05:07usually we're going to see anxious or
1:05:08fearful avoidants do love bombing and
1:05:09it's because and much lesser degree and
1:05:12their relationship to it is not because
1:05:14let me win you over so that then you're
1:05:16addicted to me and I can control you.
1:05:17It's from a place of that they usually
1:05:19because of having so many core wounds
1:05:21and people-pleasing behaviors as their
1:05:23adaptation to those core wounds, they
1:05:25have people on a pedestal. And so,
1:05:27you're going to love-bomb somebody that
1:05:28you admire and you look up to and you
1:05:30want to win over and people-please. And
1:05:32so, that's often what will happen is you
1:05:33get a lot more of those compliments and
1:05:35trying to win somebody over and charm
1:05:37them and all those things because of
1:05:38their own insecurity compared to how
1:05:41high they see other people that they're
1:05:42in relationships with. If someone comes
1:05:44on quite strongly to you,
1:05:46sometimes it can be quite infatuating
1:05:48because you're like, "Wow, I finally
1:05:49found someone
1:05:50>> Yeah. who likes me, who loves me, who
1:05:53But I've noticed as people are getting
1:05:55wiser, and I'm sure as they do the work,
1:05:58they're like, "Well, that's a bit
1:05:59strong. It's too early. Like, that that
1:06:01feels unnatural for you to have such
1:06:03intense feelings. We just met 2 weeks
1:06:05ago."
1:06:06What would you do in that scenario where
1:06:09you kind of see positives in this
1:06:10person, but their feelings are too
1:06:12strong and you don't want to get
1:06:13love-bombed, and but you still want to
1:06:15continue seeing them. How would you
1:06:17navigate that?
1:06:18>> That's a beautiful question. So, a
1:06:19couple of things.
1:06:21Um the first answer is that in that
1:06:23early stage, you can have that
1:06:24conversation. You can say to somebody,
1:06:26"Hey, I really like I really like
1:06:27spending time with you. I'm super
1:06:28interested in you and getting to know
1:06:30you, and I feel like we're moving a
1:06:32little bit quickly. Here's the pace I
1:06:33like to go at. I want to manage your
1:06:34expectations." And that forces somebody
1:06:36to kind of check in with themselves and
1:06:38be able to do that work. I also tell
1:06:39people all the time, if you're if you're
1:06:41concerned a little bit, you think
1:06:43somebody's amazing, they're very
1:06:44charming, they're very charismatic, and
1:06:46you're concerned a little bit that their
1:06:47love-bombing and their charisma
1:06:50could be a sign of a narcissist instead
1:06:52of just an insecure attachment style
1:06:53because they're vastly different, then
1:06:55one of the best ways to just vet them is
1:06:57to set a boundary with them because
1:06:58narcissists do not like your boundary,
1:07:00whereas insecure attachment styles
1:07:01they'll like really honor your boundary.
1:07:03They'll usually be like, "Oh, I'm so
1:07:04sorry." And they're they'll be
1:07:05accountable and apologize and
1:07:06acknowledge. And so, that's a really
1:07:08good way to separate out the two.
1:07:10Interesting. That's a Yeah, because I
1:07:11find that that's what I feel so many of
1:07:13my friends are struggling with where
1:07:15it's like they do set a boundary, the
1:07:17person won't respect the boundary,
1:07:20and but there's still so many good
1:07:21things about them. Is that dangerous to
1:07:24keep Do you have to tread carefully? How
1:07:26do you
1:07:26>> It's a great question and from that
1:07:27particular scenario, if somebody's not
1:07:29respecting your boundary early on,
1:07:30that's a big red flag. You know, if
1:07:31somebody doesn't know how to honor
1:07:33boundaries, then I would say in those
1:07:34types of cases that's a vetting
1:07:36situation. Like vetting in a
1:07:37relationship before we start dating
1:07:39should be for the first 3-4 months of a
1:07:41relationship. You should be asking the
1:07:43hard questions, having those early
1:07:44conversations, talking about your needs.
1:07:46I always say to people when you're when
1:07:48you're going into dating,
1:07:50know your needs and know your
1:07:51non-negotiables. And then go in and ask
1:07:53one or two really meaningful questions a
1:07:55date. You don't want the dating
1:07:57situation to be like a job interview.
1:07:58Yeah, yeah.
1:07:59>> Here is my 17 needs. Are you going to
1:08:00meet them? You know, it needs to be
1:08:01something where like each day you say,
1:08:03you know, for example, I know for me,
1:08:05you know, I've been in a marriage for
1:08:06with my husband for 11 years and and but
1:08:08if I were dating again, I would one of
1:08:10my non-negotiables early on would be you
1:08:13need to be able to hash things out. Like
1:08:14we got to talk through things because
1:08:15it's so important to prevent any kind of
1:08:17resentment in relationship. So I might,
1:08:19you know, have the first date, see if
1:08:21there's a connection, chemistry, have
1:08:22fun and then by the second date, that
1:08:25might be a question I bring up pretty
1:08:26early. Hey, like how do you handle
1:08:27conflict? And then that way I can see if
1:08:29they say, oh, I would never, you know, I
1:08:31don't like to talk about things. I don't
1:08:32go there. I don't like conflict. I don't
1:08:33believe in like having conflict. I would
1:08:35be like, whoa, red flag. And so then we
1:08:38vet and and what we want to do is if if
1:08:40we see those things and we're not sure,
1:08:42red flags if you're interested in
1:08:44somebody otherwise, people think red
1:08:45flags you should bolt. No, red flags you
1:08:47should go to words and figure out
1:08:48because sometimes somebody might
1:08:50accidentally disrespect a boundary that
1:08:52you've set. Hey, I want to move slower,
1:08:54but sometimes that red flag is well, you
1:08:56weren't clear enough of what slower
1:08:58means to you. You didn't paint the
1:08:59picture. So that should be a
1:09:00conversation you move towards to really
1:09:02get to the bottom of like kind of a
1:09:03detective like hey
1:09:05I mentioned last week wanting to move
1:09:06slower. I felt like we still moved at a
1:09:08really quick pace this week. For me
1:09:10moving slower looks like seeing each
1:09:12other a little bit less, you know,
1:09:14spending a little more time getting to
1:09:15know each other before traveling
1:09:17together, whatever it might be. And then
1:09:19we really get to the bottom of it and
1:09:20that's part of the vetting that should
1:09:22be taking place in that early stage. And
1:09:23then if we see red flags and we see oh
1:09:25no no that's just a red flag. They're
1:09:26going to keep going without those
1:09:27boundaries. Now we know the answer and
1:09:29now we're really clear. Yeah,
1:09:30absolutely. All right, another another
1:09:33scenario here. I love these with you.
1:09:34These are great. Uh
1:09:36A secure partner feels steady, but the
1:09:38anxious partner keeps searching for
1:09:40signs something is wrong.
1:09:43How can they help without becoming the
1:09:44emotional regulator?
1:09:46Yeah, really good question. So this
1:09:48happens fairly frequently. Um but what's
1:09:50very interesting about this is that I
1:09:53have yet to see it be any kind of
1:09:56frequent occurrence with somebody who's
1:09:57deeply anxious and deeply secure stay in
1:10:01a long-term relationship together
1:10:03because their subconscious comfort zones
1:10:05are going to reject each other. Securely
1:10:06attached people, there's too much
1:10:08emotional burden over time and that
1:10:10person's not self-regulating at all or
1:10:11the needle's not moving. They usually do
1:10:13eventually because they're really good
1:10:15at being mindful of their own
1:10:16boundaries, they will pull away from
1:10:18that person or move in a different
1:10:19direction. Attachment styles are always
1:10:21a continuum. If somebody's a little bit
1:10:22anxious, we'll see some movement there,
1:10:23right? But if somebody Sometimes you
1:10:25hear things like oh just date a secure
1:10:26person. It doesn't usually work out that
1:10:27way. Just like, you know, people who are
1:10:29deeply insecure often are like where's
1:10:31the spice? Where's the excitement? Is it
1:10:33this is the stability seems boring or
1:10:34they they I can reject the secure person
1:10:36as well. So you know, the the that
1:10:39really brings back to the work of like
1:10:40you got to do the work in in healing
1:10:41yourself first if you really want that
1:10:43to happen, but if that were to be the
1:10:45case where you have somebody who's a
1:10:46little less anxious and then somebody
1:10:48who's really secure, then you're going
1:10:50to [snorts] have the secure person say,
1:10:51"Hey, I need you to be able to make sure
1:10:54that you're self-soothing sometimes." Or
1:10:55I need you in in maybe less clinical
1:10:57terms, they might say something like,
1:10:58"Hey, you know, I'm going to be here for
1:11:00you, and I'm going to do my best to be
1:11:01here for you, and there's going to be
1:11:03sometimes where I'm swamped late at
1:11:04work, I'm going through my own human
1:11:06things, and I need you to see me, too,
1:11:08and I need you to practice being okay
1:11:09and on your own." And and so, they'll
1:11:11set those boundaries, they'll
1:11:12communicate their needs, and in doing
1:11:14that, it actually provides this
1:11:15beautiful opportunity
1:11:17for somebody to be like, "Oh, maybe I
1:11:19should practice that. Maybe I should
1:11:20sort of train myself to do that." And
1:11:21that's often where we can see those good
1:11:22outcomes. Yeah, I know, it's it's
1:11:24interesting you say that because
1:11:26I couldn't agree more that one person is
1:11:30usually rises to be the fixer in the
1:11:32beginning because they feel valuable
1:11:34through it as well. And then afterwards,
1:11:36they start to feel less and less
1:11:37valuable because their fixing doesn't
1:11:39work. And they feel like all of their
1:11:42efforts are in vain because
1:11:44naturally, that person still needs to
1:11:46learn self-regulation.
1:11:47And you end up pushing them, right? It's
1:11:49Yeah.
1:11:49>> 100% and okay, so there is so there is
1:11:51this um thing we we created that we that
1:11:53I talk about sometimes, and it's the the
1:11:54six stages of relationship. It's based
1:11:56off of off of some of Dr. Susan
1:11:58Johnson's work, and there's the dating
1:11:59stage, which is usually the first like,
1:12:01you know, 0 to 6 months, you're dating,
1:12:03you're vetting. Then there's the
1:12:04honeymoon stage, which usually lasts for
1:12:06another year to year and a half,
1:12:07rose-colored glasses stage.
1:12:07>> That's a long time, yeah. Yeah, and then
1:12:09we and then we enter into the power
1:12:10struggle stage. And to your exact point,
1:12:13and I kind of laugh at this with
1:12:14endearment, but it's not fun when you're
1:12:16going through it. Then people after the
1:12:17power struggle, there's the the rhythm
1:12:19stage, you get into your rhythm, then
1:12:21you get into the commitment stage,
1:12:22long-term, and then the bliss stage,
1:12:23like you things are really good
1:12:24long-term. Highly likely to break up in
1:12:26that stage. But what's so interesting is
1:12:29that in the dating stage of
1:12:30relationships, usually we are very
1:12:32attracted to people who express our
1:12:33repressed traits. So, the thing that
1:12:35we'll invest in longest term are people
1:12:37who mirror back to us how we treat
1:12:38ourselves. But one of the other things
1:12:40that does drive attraction early on,
1:12:42psychologically, um is somebody who
1:12:44expresses your repressed traits, okay?
1:12:46So, it's that opposites attract. So,
1:12:48let's say, for example, that um you're
1:12:50somebody who struggles with boundaries.
1:12:51If you meet somebody really assertive,
1:12:53you're going to be like, "Wow, like ooh,
1:12:54let me get close to them." Or if you're
1:12:56somebody
1:12:56>> not a bad thing. Not a bad thing. Or if
1:12:59you're somebody who's very um type A,
1:13:01organized, intense,
1:13:02when somebody's really easygoing, you're
1:13:03going to be like, "Oh, wow, like look at
1:13:05them." And and so we're very drawn
1:13:07because the mind likes to attach. And
1:13:09when we attach to something, we have an
1:13:10allostatic or homeostatic impulse at the
1:13:12subconscious level. So when we attach,
1:13:14we feel more whole through that person.
1:13:16But what's so crazy is over time, we are
1:13:19still going to invest in the most people
1:13:20who mirror our subconscious comfort
1:13:22zone. So in the early stages, we're
1:13:23often attracted, and then in the power
1:13:25struggle stage, it's the very thing that
1:13:26has one of the greatest likelihoods of
1:13:28driving the relationship apart, and it
1:13:29looks like this.
1:13:30They were so assertive, I loved that
1:13:32early on, and now in the power struggle
1:13:33stage, you're like, "They never
1:13:34compromise."
1:13:35>> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, [laughter]
1:13:36yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
1:13:36yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
1:13:36yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
1:13:36yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
1:13:37yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
1:13:37yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:13:37>> or early on, you're like, "Oh my god, I
1:13:39love that they go with the flow, they're
1:13:40so flexible and easygoing." And then
1:13:41you're like, "Hello, like we have plans,
1:13:43get here on time." And you're really
1:13:44stressed. And it happens like clockwork
1:13:46in every relationship. And the what I
1:13:49believe to be both the psychological and
1:13:51even spiritual lesson is to integrate
1:13:53those traits collectively. And so
1:13:56>> Explain that to me. Yeah, so for
1:13:57example, let's say let's pretend it's me
1:13:59and my husband, and actually we were
1:14:00kind of like this. I met my husband when
1:14:02I still had a little boundary work to
1:14:03do, and he was so good at setting
1:14:05boundaries, just like so direct, so
1:14:07straight up, so to the point. And I
1:14:09remember really admiring it. And then
1:14:10sure enough, I knew we got in the power
1:14:12struggle stage, it started to I was
1:14:13like, "Hello, like" And so I went to him
1:14:15and I said, "Hey." And I knew this
1:14:16already, I was equipped, thank goodness.
1:14:18And I knew that like I was going to
1:14:20start feeling frustrated unless I took
1:14:22on some of the trait of assertiveness
1:14:24better. And if he took on some of my
1:14:26flexibility a little bit more.
1:14:28>> Yes, yes. So I went to him, I had the
1:14:29conversation, I said, "Hey, I need you
1:14:31to make compromises with me sometimes,
1:14:33and this is really important to me. And
1:14:35it's going to be important for you to be
1:14:36more flexible and more mindful of me at
1:14:38times as well." And I gave some examples
1:14:39and sort of painted a picture.
1:14:41And what was really beautiful about that
1:14:43is I knew I had to communicate my needs
1:14:45more consistently and say my boundaries
1:14:46and do it better in real time. And I did
1:14:48and it was profoundly healing for me and
1:14:50helped me in so many relationships going
1:14:51forward, especially in things like work.
1:14:53And for him, he became so much more
1:14:56flexible and I saw it really strengthen
1:14:58his relationships with his friends, his
1:14:59family members. Like it was really
1:15:01beautiful to see him evolve in that way.
1:15:03And that's everybody. That's if you're
1:15:05the the type A person, you got to learn
1:15:06that easy-goingness sometimes and
1:15:08surrender. If you're the easy-going
1:15:09person, having some discipline is really
1:15:11valuable. So, I really believe that
1:15:12relationships are not just here for
1:15:15love, although that's a beautiful thing.
1:15:16They're also here for growth. And a lot
1:15:18of it's that we're attracted to people
1:15:19that way because that's our subconscious
1:15:21mind calling us to take on some of those
1:15:23things internally and that's how we
1:15:24become more whole together in that power
1:15:27struggle stage. And now instead of
1:15:28having these two different people that
1:15:30are attracted, we're now two whole
1:15:32people collectively and that strengthens
1:15:34us individually and collectively
1:15:36long-term.
1:15:36>> I couldn't agree more. I I if whenever
1:15:38people ask me and Radi, it's our 10-year
1:15:40wedding anniversary this year.
1:15:41Congratulations.
1:15:42>> And and when I think about what's
1:15:44worked, because there've been tough
1:15:46conversations, there's been growth,
1:15:47there's been
1:15:48both of us taking responsibility and
1:15:50accountability.
1:15:51And I'm like the best thing that's
1:15:53happened is the best parts of us have
1:15:55rubbed off onto the other person.
1:15:58And the worst parts haven't.
1:16:00Oh, I And like that is the only thing I
1:16:02can come down to. It's like
1:16:03So, me and Radi similarly, Radi's
1:16:05spontaneous, I'm super hyper-focused.
1:16:09And I've become more spontaneous and
1:16:10more casual in our relationship with our
1:16:13timing and things like that. And she's
1:16:16become more organized in her work and
1:16:17focused and driven in her her
1:16:19profession. And then Radi's super
1:16:21healthy and you know, really health
1:16:23conscious and exercise diet, everything.
1:16:25That's really rubbed off on me. And so
1:16:27she's taught me that and I'm like,
1:16:28that's what's worked. And it's but you
1:16:30both got to have the humility
1:16:33to be able to learn from the other
1:16:34person. And I think you have to have the
1:16:37humility to not want to teach the other
1:16:38person. So, I don't think in what you
1:16:41said and the way you're talking about
1:16:42conversations, I never went up to Radha
1:16:44and said, "I think you need to be more
1:16:45organized." And she never came up to me
1:16:47and goes, "I think you need to be more
1:16:49healthy." Like, if it's almost like the
1:16:51humility to not teach and the humility
1:16:54to learn.
1:16:55And that's fascinating because most of
1:16:56us think, "Oh yeah, I wish my partner
1:16:58was a bit more like me and I'm going to
1:16:59go tell them how they can be like me."
1:17:00And it's like, "Well, no, no, no, it's
1:17:02you live the quality so well that it
1:17:06becomes attractive." Like, I know Radha
1:17:08like really values getting to the gym,
1:17:10really values eating well. She sees how
1:17:12alert it makes her. When you see that
1:17:14change in someone, you feel inspired
1:17:16that I want to do it, too. And so, it's
1:17:18so fascinating how
1:17:20Yeah, I'd say successful relationships
1:17:23are when
1:17:24the good things you both have rub off on
1:17:26each other and the bad things don't. And
1:17:28that simple principle
1:17:31allows you to have the humility to learn
1:17:33from your partner
1:17:34and not have the ego to want to teach
1:17:36them. And those two things seem to make
1:17:38sense. I thought that was so beautiful
1:17:40the way you said that. It actually
1:17:41really touched my heart. You said the
1:17:42the best things rubbed off on one
1:17:44another, but the harder things didn't.
1:17:46And like, I just think that's such a
1:17:47beautiful example of a truly healthy,
1:17:49harmonious relationship. And And that's
1:17:51that's that
1:17:52for people who are like, "How do I have
1:17:54the humility? How do I communicate?"
1:17:55That's that feelings need framework.
1:17:57When you communicate, "Hey, I I need
1:17:59this. Hey, I need a little flexibility
1:18:00sometimes for me." Or "Hey, I need you
1:18:02to sometimes be mindful of me." When you
1:18:03say it with like this this humbleness,
1:18:06you come to the table of like, "I care
1:18:07about you and sometimes I need to lean
1:18:09on you in this way." Vice versa. That is
1:18:11a big part of what what opens those
1:18:13dialogues and those conversations to be
1:18:14more mindful. And then of course, like
1:18:16you said, when somebody's living in
1:18:17their best version of themselves, they
1:18:19step into that truth and that's
1:18:20inspiring to be around. 100%.
1:18:22>> Okay, one more scenario before we do a
1:18:25couple of segments. So, this one is one
1:18:28partner is ready to commit, the other
1:18:30becomes uncertain as things deepen. How
1:18:33do you tell fear from a real mismatch?
1:18:35Beautiful question. So, I always find
1:18:38it's going to boil back down to these
1:18:39same types of themes and pillars. So,
1:18:41first thing is you have to have a real
1:18:44conversation. Like, if
1:18:46we sort of have these trajectories that
1:18:47relationships follow that I've found,
1:18:49which is that if you don't do anything
1:18:52really direct, if you don't have a
1:18:54really vulnerable conversation, instead
1:18:56what happens is one person's like, "Oh,
1:18:58they don't want to commit." They make it
1:18:59mean things about themselves, especially
1:19:01if they have a lot of core wounds.
1:19:02They're like, "Oh, am I not good enough?
1:19:03Am I unlovable? Am I unworthy?" And then
1:19:05they they project those onto situations.
1:19:07Or, the person keeps dragging their feet
1:19:09and the other person self-silences, and
1:19:11they just feel resentful in the
1:19:12relationship, then that comes out in
1:19:14different ways, and it's more arguments
1:19:15or disagreements. So, the only actual
1:19:18reasonable solution is to truly hash it
1:19:20out. And so, we go and we say, "Hey, you
1:19:23know, here's what I'm looking for. I'm
1:19:24looking for a commitment. Here's why.
1:19:27And here's like what, you know, paint
1:19:29that picture. What does that time frame
1:19:30look like? And be really honest and
1:19:32transparent." And then the other person
1:19:34has to say what's holding them back. And
1:19:35oftentimes what I found, cuz I've done a
1:19:37lot of these specific conversations with
1:19:39people in relationships, and usually
1:19:41what's actually happening
1:19:43is that that conversation will be the
1:19:45catalyst for some deeply unresolved
1:19:47needs in relationships. More often than
1:19:50not, the person who's dragging their
1:19:51feet in commitment the most is deeply
1:19:54directly running in parallel to the
1:19:56person who's also not communicating
1:19:57their needs in relationships. And so,
1:20:00they're afraid to commit, and a lot of
1:20:02times people's commitment fears are yes,
1:20:03coming from core wounds of being trapped
1:20:05or helpless or powerless in in that
1:20:07pillar, but a lot more of the time
1:20:09commitment fears are rooted in somebody
1:20:10not knowing how to communicate their
1:20:13needs. So, they're more scared to get
1:20:15trapped because they're like, "Well,
1:20:16what if I commit to this and then I
1:20:17don't feel fully fulfilled or have my
1:20:19needs met?" But, once they learn to
1:20:20communicate their needs, a lot of those
1:20:22conversations usually end up being
1:20:23things like,
1:20:25"Hey, yeah, I guess like one of the
1:20:27reasons I'm afraid to commit is I'm
1:20:28scared that I'm going to lose, you know,
1:20:30my time with my friends sometimes, and I
1:20:32need to be able to have that in in the
1:20:33long term and go off and hang out with
1:20:35the boys sometimes or go have a girls
1:20:37weekend or whatever it might be. And
1:20:39then the person's like, "Oh, I can honor
1:20:41that. I can make that a part of our
1:20:42marriage. I can, you know." And it's
1:20:43this catalyst to a huge breakthrough. Or
1:20:45sometimes it's things like,
1:20:47"Hey, I guess what's holding me back is
1:20:48sometimes I feel like I get criticized
1:20:51more than I feel good about and it makes
1:20:53me want to pull away and I'm not sure if
1:20:55I see that being, you know, something
1:20:57I'm really happy in long term." And then
1:20:58the person hears that and they're able
1:21:00to say, "Oh my gosh, it's time for me to
1:21:02clean up the way I communicate." And
1:21:03then there's this breakthrough and they
1:21:04both feel safer. So, I would love to
1:21:06tell people, "Hey, there's some
1:21:08manipulative easy fix where you tell
1:21:09them this thing and you say I'll do if
1:21:11you don't, you know, commit I'll leave"
1:21:12and give an ultimatum, you're selling
1:21:15yourself short and the relationship
1:21:17short by not saying, "Hey, this is what
1:21:19I'm really looking for. Here's why. Tell
1:21:21me what's coming up for you. I want to
1:21:23understand." And when we do that and
1:21:24have that same humility to really go
1:21:26there with an open heart and open mind,
1:21:28usually there's big breakthroughs. Yeah.
1:21:30What happens when we've talked a lot
1:21:31about dating, we've talked about being
1:21:33in a relationship.
1:21:34What happens when you set your boundary,
1:21:37you've done some of the self-work, maybe
1:21:38they have too,
1:21:39and then they decide to leave you?
1:21:41Beautiful question. And someone breaks
1:21:43up with you and you've done the work,
1:21:45you've been trying to figure it out, but
1:21:47the subconscious and the conditioning
1:21:48was so strong that it was overriding
1:21:50everything and for both of you it's just
1:21:51too difficult. That person breaks up
1:21:53with you. How does an anxious attachment
1:21:55style and an avoidant attachment style,
1:21:58how can they correctly deal with a
1:22:00breakup? Ah, I love this question, too.
1:22:02Okay.
1:22:02>> Yeah.
1:22:03So, one of my favorite topics is is
1:22:05actually um
1:22:06grief.
1:22:07And a breakup is grief. And when we
1:22:10actually look at grief,
1:22:12I think grief is one of the most
1:22:13misunderstood things in our society
1:22:16because we think time heals all wounds
1:22:19or we think these things and honestly
1:22:20it's just not the case. Wounds can last
1:22:22for a very long time.
1:22:24Um but when we go through a breakup,
1:22:26it's grief because what happens when we
1:22:28get into a relationship is the mind
1:22:30attaches to another person. And when we
1:22:32attach to another person deeply, that's
1:22:35when our attachment behaviors exhibit
1:22:36themselves the most. But when we attach,
1:22:38what we're actually attaching to is very
1:22:40much the non-physical.
1:22:42So this is kind of a morbid example, but
1:22:44if somebody passes away,
1:22:46it's not their physical body that you
1:22:48miss. If their physical body was around
1:22:50in your house or something, like you're
1:22:52not going to be like, "Oh, I feel
1:22:53better." It's all the non-physical So
1:22:56true. that we miss. And so we have to
1:22:57then ask the question, "Well, what is
1:22:58the non-physical?" Well, it really boils
1:23:01down to a couple of really major things.
1:23:03Number one, the need somebody met in
1:23:05your life that we were used to them
1:23:07meeting. Maybe that person made you feel
1:23:08seen or heard or loved or validated. And
1:23:10maybe they weren't even doing a good job
1:23:12cuz it led to the breakup. But if they
1:23:13met your need a three out of 10, and you
1:23:15were meeting your need one out of 10 to
1:23:17feel validated, you're going to keep
1:23:18going back for those breadcrumbs cuz
1:23:19you're starving. So the first part is
1:23:22that grief is the detachment. We were
1:23:24used to having these needs met in our
1:23:25life. Suddenly, the person's gone. They
1:23:27took our needs with them. And there's a
1:23:29void left behind, and that void is a big
1:23:31part of what we experience as grief,
1:23:32step one. Number two, grief, and this is
1:23:36a very sacred thing, I believe, but
1:23:38grief is also
1:23:40who we became around that person, the
1:23:42part of ourselves that we got to
1:23:43express. And I had times back in my
1:23:45practice, when I was running my my
1:23:46client practice before our our online
1:23:48programs, where I'd work with people on
1:23:49loss, and I remember one time I worked
1:23:51with somebody on the loss of a child,
1:23:53and it was a very tragic situation, and
1:23:56her really, you know, big breakthrough
1:23:59that led her to really start healing, is
1:24:01she realized what she was grieving the
1:24:03most years later. When she came to me,
1:24:04she'd been grieving for years and wasn't
1:24:06really getting anywhere. She realized
1:24:07that what she missed the most was that
1:24:09she felt like she was a nurturer, and a
1:24:11protector, and a caretaker, and a
1:24:13contributor. And these really beautiful,
1:24:15sacred expressions of herself, that she,
1:24:18because she was going through that grief
1:24:20and then hadn't had another child again,
1:24:21she didn't feel like she had anywhere to
1:24:23express that or become that. And so, you
1:24:25know, what she ultimately did is then
1:24:27started this beautiful charity that
1:24:28helped kids in a similar situation. And
1:24:30and that deeply healed her heart. And
1:24:32and so, grief is also when we lose
1:24:34somebody, we lose the aspects of
1:24:36ourselves that we got to express in
1:24:37their company. And so, you know, those
1:24:39are two big pillars of grief. And then
1:24:41third is we have all these stories. We
1:24:42say it was all my fault. I'm not good
1:24:44enough. You know, the backs of the core
1:24:45wound. So, that's a big part of rewiring
1:24:46it. But what I actually get people to do
1:24:48is they go through a breakup. And
1:24:50usually when people go through a breakup
1:24:51like that, it's because they tried to
1:24:53start doing the work when they already
1:24:55had too many resentments and they were
1:24:57already, you know, half checked out. But
1:24:58if you go through that breakup, one of
1:25:00the fastest ways to truly heal grief
1:25:02from a breakup is to write out what were
1:25:04all of those needs this person met.
1:25:06I now have to start meeting those needs
1:25:07in myself. And I have to start sell or I
1:25:09have to start resourcing them in healthy
1:25:11ways with healthy people in my life. And
1:25:13as we do, we fill up that void that was
1:25:15left behind from that person and it
1:25:17heals our heart. It heals us deeply. And
1:25:18part of why people say time heals all
1:25:20heals all wounds is because human beings
1:25:23are naturally adaptable and in time,
1:25:26they start to learn to resource their
1:25:27needs in other ways. It's not time doing
1:25:29that. It's our natural adaptiveness
1:25:30that's doing that for us. But we can
1:25:32fast track that process by being more
1:25:33conscious and intentional about it. The
1:25:35secondary part of it is is who were you?
1:25:38Who were who who did you become when you
1:25:40had this loss? And a lot of times it's
1:25:43these beautiful things. Like I was a
1:25:45protector. I was a caretaker. I was a
1:25:46contributor. And when we look at who we
1:25:48became and we weren't to keep expressing
1:25:50those aspects of self, that is deeply
1:25:52healing for us as well. And that's a
1:25:54really good way to kickstart moving
1:25:56through the breakup much more quickly.
1:25:57Do you ever truly get over someone?
1:26:00I very much believe that you do. And I
1:26:02think that there is times where, you
1:26:04know, people when we look at grief, too,
1:26:07which is really interesting is
1:26:09one of the ways that it's actually
1:26:11another step that we we
1:26:13have for how to heal grief. It's funny
1:26:14cuz I actually forgot about this one. Is
1:26:16sometimes when
1:26:18we feel like we lost somebody, there's
1:26:20this old saying that
1:26:21there's no such thing as gain or loss,
1:26:23it's only ever changing forms.
1:26:25And when I think of
1:26:27in more extreme forms of grief, even
1:26:28like the the lot like a death of
1:26:30somebody,
1:26:31often times, yes, they're not here in
1:26:33the physical form, but they're here and
1:26:35you know, we can meet those needs and we
1:26:36can become that expression of ourselves,
1:26:38but a lot of times
1:26:39they're still within you
1:26:42in their conditioning that they
1:26:43imprinted or impressed upon you. In
1:26:45other words, you know, if it's a loss of
1:26:47a parent, you know, sometimes it gets
1:26:49people to sit down around losses like
1:26:51that and they say, "Okay, what was your
1:26:52father?" "Oh, my father was a protector.
1:26:55He was strong. He was assertive. He
1:26:57thought five steps ahead." Where did you
1:27:00become that? And what's really beautiful
1:27:02is when people sit down and they do
1:27:03that, they a lot of times you hear
1:27:04people say things like, "Oh my god, my
1:27:06father is like here as a part of me."
1:27:08And so I think that we can truly move
1:27:10through a point where we get over the
1:27:11grief in terms of the suffering.
1:27:14And there's this whole thing that grief
1:27:15is love with nowhere to go.
1:27:17And I think that when we don't know
1:27:19where to put the love cuz we don't know
1:27:20how to express that part of ourselves or
1:27:22we don't know how to get the needs met
1:27:23or we don't recognize that that person
1:27:26they're with us in all of these
1:27:27non-physical ways, then it feels like
1:27:29it's very hard to get over somebody. But
1:27:30I think when we start to actually move
1:27:32through those steps in terms of how we
1:27:34process grief, we kind of feel this
1:27:36connection to somebody in our heart and
1:27:37we get over the deep mourning, the deep
1:27:39grieving. And sometimes we'll miss the
1:27:41person still or sometimes we'll feel
1:27:42that care for people we love so deeply,
1:27:44but it doesn't have to be this painful
1:27:46relationship that we have to that
1:27:48person. Yeah. Should you feel 100% sure
1:27:51about your partner?
1:27:53Ooh, great question. These are good
1:27:54questions.
1:27:55I love [laughter and clears throat]
1:27:56these. Okay, so the answer is I would
1:27:58say 100% it's a little bit of a fallacy.
1:28:02I would say that we should feel highly
1:28:03certain,
1:28:04but it's almost like when people say,
1:28:06and I hear this all the time, "Are you
1:28:08100% ready to have kids?" You're like,
1:28:09"Nobody's ever 100% ready for anything."
1:28:11"Are you 100% ready to take that new
1:28:13job, to move across the country, to
1:28:15You're never going to feel 100% ready,
1:28:17but there should be a high enough degree
1:28:19of certainty where you feel like, "Hey,
1:28:21this is me following my heart or taking
1:28:23that leap of faith." And that bridge in
1:28:25that leap of faith shouldn't feel like
1:28:26the bridge is like something you can't
1:28:27surmount or jump over. It should feel
1:28:29like, "Okay, I'm going to take that
1:28:30small leap of faith." And there's a
1:28:31smaller gap there. Mhm. That's a good
1:28:33answer. Yeah, it's I agree with you. I
1:28:35don't think there's 100% surety. If
1:28:38anything, that surety gets stronger the
1:28:40more time you spend with someone. And I
1:28:42think that's partly the challenge that a
1:28:44lot of these things are only tried and
1:28:46tested and proven over time because
1:28:48there is no substitute for time in a
1:28:50relationship because people change,
1:28:52people grow, people evolve, you change,
1:28:54you grow, you evolve.
1:28:56And
1:28:57it's really
1:28:59crazy to think when you say on your
1:29:00wedding day like you know, till death do
1:29:03us apart. The idea that
1:29:05you don't really even know what life's
1:29:07going to look like. And so there is a
1:29:10big
1:29:11risk in that commitment because you
1:29:14don't even know the version of the
1:29:16person that you're going to have to be
1:29:17with in like 5, 10, 15, 20 years. That
1:29:20used to be my biggest fear in
1:29:21relationships. And
1:29:24this is something that really is true,
1:29:26like runs deep to my heart. I always
1:29:28used to be like, "How can you ever know
1:29:30that you you trust them now, you love
1:29:32them now? How can you know you won't
1:29:33change your mind or they won't change
1:29:34their mind?" And it was always this big
1:29:36fear. And earlier I mentioned those
1:29:37cycles of relationships, dating,
1:29:39honeymoon, power struggle stage, then we
1:29:41have the the rhythm stage, commitment
1:29:43bliss stage. And what I actually found
1:29:45over and over again, and I experienced
1:29:46this so deeply first hand, and this is
1:29:48actually something I want people so
1:29:49deeply to know and understand because I
1:29:52know there's going to be a lot of people
1:29:52like me who who really struggled at
1:29:55points in relationships early on. And
1:29:57I had only ever done relationships in
1:29:59dating, honeymoon, power struggle,
1:30:01breakup. Date again, dating, honeymoon,
1:30:03power struggle, breakup. So you think
1:30:05that relationships are just infatuation
1:30:07or pain. Yeah. And what I learned
1:30:09exactly to your point is that real love
1:30:12is built in the power struggle stage the
1:30:15most because we drop the mask, we're not
1:30:17in our best behavior, and you learn to
1:30:18work through things. And the power
1:30:19struggle is this this opportunity. It's
1:30:23this crisis, but it's also this
1:30:24opportunity
1:30:25to start saying, "Hey, this is what's
1:30:27come up for me. This is what I need in
1:30:29these situations. This is what I'm
1:30:30feeling. Hey, this is sensitive for me.
1:30:32That's a pain point for me. Can you be
1:30:34more mindful?" And I believe that we
1:30:36really move the needle from more
1:30:38conditionally based love to more
1:30:39unconditionally based love through
1:30:42having those deeper conversations,
1:30:43through doing that work. And then we
1:30:45deepen it's almost like in the early
1:30:46stages you have this really pretty
1:30:47sapling, like this really nice little
1:30:49tree, but a windstorm can take it out
1:30:51cuz it's so fragile. But when we have
1:30:53those meaningful conversations again and
1:30:55again and we build and we grow, and then
1:30:57all of a sudden you know your partner's,
1:30:59you know, biggest pain points and you're
1:31:00mindful of them. And you know when
1:31:02somebody else hit them and you're there
1:31:03to to to show up for them and caretake
1:31:05for them and be sensitive to them in
1:31:06that. And they're that for you, too. Now
1:31:09you deepen roots in love in such a
1:31:10different way where those ideas of like,
1:31:13"Oh, what if somebody else came along
1:31:14and what if we all changed our mind?"
1:31:15You know, that it's such a silly thing.
1:31:18And I could never conceive of that at
1:31:21one point in my life because I had so
1:31:22many wounds around relationships and so
1:31:24many fears. And it's only through that
1:31:26beauty of like having those
1:31:28conversations and doing the work and
1:31:29deepening that connection in such a real
1:31:31way that then like some silly frivolous
1:31:33thing that oh, something attractive
1:31:35would come along and you could change
1:31:36your mind. Like it seems so almost like,
1:31:38you know, like like silly. Like you can
1:31:40laugh at it after a while. But that's
1:31:42because I think the real work isn't that
1:31:44you're going to be 100% sure. It's that
1:31:46you build that 100 or close to 100%
1:31:48certainty through all of those
1:31:50meaningful conversations that you're
1:31:51building over time. And I really believe
1:31:53love isn't just given. I think love is
1:31:55really grown. And I think that's part of
1:31:57what allows us to to foster that with
1:31:58people. I agree with you. That was a I
1:32:00was having this conversation with
1:32:01someone that life would be
1:32:04in one what you just explained, life
1:32:06would be somewhat more
1:32:08entertaining if you went from
1:32:10dating to honeymoon and then broke at
1:32:13the power struggle and just kept doing
1:32:14that circle again because you'd keep
1:32:16getting this honeymoon period.
1:32:18But the honeymoon period requires no
1:32:19growth.
1:32:20And the growth over time is what allows
1:32:24you to realize the value of any
1:32:25relationship. And in when I wrote my
1:32:29second book, eight rules of love,
1:32:31it was all based on the Eastern
1:32:32teachings, which is every stage of life
1:32:35is called an ashram and an ashram
1:32:38by definition is a place of growth. And
1:32:41so being on your own is an ashram and
1:32:43then being with a partner is an ashram.
1:32:46And the ashram is a place of growth, a
1:32:48place of evolution. And so I think our
1:32:51views of love have been so warped by
1:32:53just
1:32:54happiness or pleasure
1:32:57that you forget that the greatest joy a
1:32:59human can feel is
1:33:01the challenge. And ultimately you're
1:33:02choosing someone that you like to be
1:33:03challenged by, that likes to be
1:33:05challenged by you, and where the
1:33:07challenge becomes enjoyable and joyful
1:33:10as opposed to the challenge being
1:33:11exhausting and tiring and painful.
1:33:14Absolutely.
1:33:15>> Right? It's a that's at least what's
1:33:17resonated with me. That's so beautiful.
1:33:19I love that. I love that idea too that
1:33:21like the relationship is the ashram and
1:33:22sort of like we were talking about like
1:33:24really that one of my favorite quotes
1:33:25that reminds me of this is from Rumi and
1:33:27Rumi says, "If I am irritated by every
1:33:29rub, but how will I ever be polished?"
1:33:32And it's this idea that like everything
1:33:33I think we so we're so quick to jump to
1:33:35the conclusion that the hard things or
1:33:36the painful things are things that oh no
1:33:39like this shouldn't be happening. Why is
1:33:40this happening to me? But I actually
1:33:42believe that and this is actually uh
1:33:44again, I went through a lot of this work
1:33:46on myself first, but I remember being so
1:33:49scared to see people in pain. I couldn't
1:33:50handle it. I was a little codependent
1:33:52and somebody would be in pain and I
1:33:53wanted to like fix it for them right
1:33:54now.
1:33:54>> Yeah. And when I really started to
1:33:57reflect, I did this exercise once and I
1:33:59went and looked at the hardest times in
1:34:00my life. I wrote them all on paper, like
1:34:02the big ones, the really hard ones
1:34:03individually.
1:34:04And I I went through and I looked at,
1:34:07okay, what did this give me? What was
1:34:09the hidden gift? And how did this serve
1:34:11me? How did this grow me? What did I
1:34:12learn? And oh my goodness, by the end of
1:34:15that, I was like tears of like relief
1:34:17and gratitude because I noticed that in
1:34:19every really hard time,
1:34:21there was this like invaluable lesson
1:34:23that I learned and I really believe that
1:34:25God puts on our path for a reason. And I
1:34:27was able to go, oh my gosh, like there
1:34:29was a time where
1:34:30I was going through and trying to get
1:34:31sober and I
1:34:33tried to reach out to people and I
1:34:34really didn't get the support that I
1:34:36needed at that time and also cuz I was
1:34:38difficult at that time of my life, too.
1:34:39I understand why.
1:34:41And it was so painful for me at the time
1:34:43and I thought like, I'll never get over
1:34:45it and it was so healing for me to
1:34:46realize like, because I didn't go
1:34:48looking outside of myself for something
1:34:50in those moments,
1:34:52that brought me into relationship to
1:34:53myself, into relationship to God. I felt
1:34:55like I really found a relationship to
1:34:57God in those moments and through those
1:34:58times and it was like, how could you
1:35:01ever want something other than that?
1:35:02Like, how could like, thank God that I
1:35:04went through that and it was like this
1:35:05really big relief and so, I think
1:35:07sometimes we we're so quick to think
1:35:08pain shouldn't be happening, bad things
1:35:10shouldn't be happening, things in
1:35:11relationships should just be easy all
1:35:12the time, but it's like sometimes pain
1:35:14is the greatest teacher and actually
1:35:15presents to us, if we are willing to
1:35:17look and find those things, the greatest
1:35:19gifts in in what's going to grow us in
1:35:21that next season of our lives. Well
1:35:22said. Uh, Tiyes, we want to play this
1:35:25game with you called this or that,
1:35:27relationship edition. So, we're going to
1:35:29ask you this or that and then you
1:35:30choose. So, Tiyes, slow things down to
1:35:34match their pace, even if you want more,
1:35:37or move on to honor your timeline, even
1:35:40if it means losing them.
1:35:41>> [laughter]
1:35:42>> I'm scared all my answers are going to
1:35:43be like, communicate and find the middle
1:35:45ground, but I would say for sure, be
1:35:48honest, be up front, tell somebody what
1:35:50your timeline is, stand in your truth,
1:35:52be really authentic. And if somebody is
1:35:54unwilling to move and meet you partway,
1:35:57then you have to honor yourself and and
1:35:58keep it moving. And I often found
1:36:01I know these are probably supposed to be
1:36:02quick questions, and um but I I have
1:36:04often found that people um who are
1:36:07anxious think, "Oh, I'll just slow down
1:36:09to win them over." Doesn't work like
1:36:10that. Never works like that. What you do
1:36:12is you honor your truth, you speak your
1:36:13needs, you stand in it, and you let that
1:36:15person either grow and move towards or
1:36:17you don't. And usually if you're in a
1:36:18people-pleasing it's a self-betrayal,
1:36:21and then that feeds back into the
1:36:22subconscious comfort zone. It just never
1:36:23works that way. Absolutely. Okay, cool.
1:36:25Uh next one. Stay with someone who feels
1:36:28safe but doesn't excite you, or choose
1:36:31someone who excites you but keeps you on
1:36:33edge. I would say stay with the person
1:36:35who feels safe cuz there are more green
1:36:36flags, but then build things that create
1:36:38mutual excitement into your
1:36:39relationship. So, it's actually one of
1:36:41the um ways it's a rite of passage to
1:36:43get out of the rhythm stage and into the
1:36:45future stages of relationship is if you
1:36:47feel like there's a sense of safety but
1:36:48not enough excitement, then you have to
1:36:51build novelty into the relationship,
1:36:52spontaneity, things that make you feel
1:36:54that sense of chemistry and connection.
1:36:55So, safety is really healthy and good,
1:36:58but then build those things in that keep
1:36:59that that spark alive. It's easier to
1:37:02add excitement to a safe relationship
1:37:05than it is to build safety in an
1:37:07exciting relationship.
1:37:09Beautifully said.
1:37:10>> Right? Like and it's like we we think
1:37:12that, "Oh, if something's exciting, oh,
1:37:14I can make this feel more safe. I can
1:37:16make this feel more secure." But that's
1:37:17a much harder thing to develop from that
1:37:20foundation than the other way around.
1:37:22>> 100%. And like caveat being that you
1:37:24have to actually feel attracted to the
1:37:26person. You have to like the person.
1:37:28I can see some people being like, "Oh,
1:37:29so I should stay with the person I'm not
1:37:31interested in? No way." But like the
1:37:32reality is exactly what you said. And
1:37:34sometimes the constantly on edge is for
1:37:36really painful reasons, especially if
1:37:38the other person's not going to be
1:37:39willing to do the work with you. Yeah.
1:37:41Okay, next one. Build stability slowly
1:37:43with someone dependable, or follow
1:37:46instant chemistry and risk the
1:37:48uncertainty. Oof.
1:37:50Build You know what? I'd actually almost
1:37:52go in reverse on that one. I would say
1:37:54follow the chemistry as long as you're
1:37:56going to do the work on it. Chemistry
1:37:58tells us a lot about ourselves. Those
1:38:00times you get those really exciting like
1:38:02connections and that like oh my gosh,
1:38:04that is always we have a limerence or
1:38:06intense infatuation for three reasons.
1:38:09Number one, somebody's expressing your
1:38:10repressed traits like we talked about.
1:38:11Do that integration work. Number two,
1:38:13somebody's meeting your deeply unmet
1:38:15needs from childhood. That'll be the
1:38:17spark early and then it'll be the thing
1:38:18that pressures the relationship later.
1:38:20Um because you're trying to just source
1:38:21from them. So do that work to really
1:38:23build those. It's it's sort of this key
1:38:25that unlocks all this awareness into
1:38:26yourself. And then the third thing is
1:38:28how somebody's, you know, treating you.
1:38:29If it's how you treat yourself, we got
1:38:30to work that out. So I would say follow
1:38:32the the excitement but vet that
1:38:35somebody's going to do the work with you
1:38:36non-negotiably. Yes. Getting closure
1:38:39from yourself or closure from your ex
1:38:42after a breakup.
1:38:43>> From self.
1:38:45>> [laughter]
1:38:45>> The real one through because what you're
1:38:48looking for is needs from that person
1:38:49who often can't supply them anyways and
1:38:52closure wouldn't When people break down
1:38:53closure, closure, they're actually
1:38:55looking for certainty, okay?
1:38:57Best way to get certainty is to question
1:38:59all of your stories that you're telling
1:39:00after the breakup. So people want the
1:39:01certainty of their ex saying, "Oh, it
1:39:03wasn't all your fault. It was this and
1:39:05this and it was me." They want to hear
1:39:06all those details. You know what you're
1:39:07going to do is you're going to sit down
1:39:08and write all your stories on paper. It
1:39:10was all my fault. I wasn't good enough.
1:39:12I'm unlovable. You're going to put all
1:39:13those things and you're going to sit
1:39:14there and question them. And you're
1:39:16going to say, "Really, I wasn't good
1:39:17enough? How was I good enough? How did I
1:39:18show up? I'm not lovable. How am I
1:39:20lovable?" And you're going to honor
1:39:21those things and that's those things
1:39:23we're trying to get from your ex your
1:39:24neck that your ex is never going to give
1:39:25them to you the way that you need, but
1:39:26you can give them to yourself in that
1:39:27way and that's healing and it's growth.
1:39:30And you have a sense of control over it
1:39:31and I hope you will.
1:39:32>> [laughter]
1:39:33>> Stace, it's been incredible talking to
1:39:35you today. I feel like I've learned so
1:39:37much. I truly believe you've given me
1:39:40the book, the podcast, and the program
1:39:42to recommend to all of my friends that
1:39:45are struggling in love and dating and
1:39:46relationships right now because
1:39:48I don't think I've heard a a stronger
1:39:51foundational way
1:39:53that people can actually engage and
1:39:54interact with each other.
1:39:56The framework carries so much gravitas,
1:39:58but the the way you've built the program
1:40:00to be so simple and specific feels so
1:40:04practical and tactical and easy to do
1:40:06for people. It's It's It's truly
1:40:08remarkable. Congratulations. Like it's
1:40:10It's really fulfilling
1:40:12that I have something to give to people
1:40:14that I I, you know, that I want to help.
1:40:16Uh we end every On Purpose episode with
1:40:18a final five. These questions have to be
1:40:20answered in one sentence maximum. So, Ty
1:40:23Gibson, these are your final five. The
1:40:25first question is, "What is the best
1:40:27love advice you've ever heard or
1:40:28received?" To learn to be compassionate
1:40:31towards yourself and gentle towards
1:40:32yourself.
1:40:33Second question, "What is the worst love
1:40:35advice you've ever heard or received?"
1:40:37>> To try to change other people if they're
1:40:39not willing to do the work. Can you ever
1:40:41change someone? No. People can choose to
1:40:43change themselves, but you can only show
1:40:46up and lead by example, and that's how
1:40:48somebody else responds. Question number
1:40:50three, I had a couple here actually that
1:40:51I really wanted to get to.
1:40:53So, question number three,
1:40:56"What does the spark really mean in
1:40:58dating?"
1:41:00>> [laughter]
1:41:01>> The spark really means that somebody is
1:41:04the expression of your repressed traits,
1:41:07meeting your deeply unmet needs, or
1:41:08mirroring back to you how you treat
1:41:09yourself. When people have extreme
1:41:11sparks, it's always that. Mhm. Good
1:41:13answer. Question number four,
1:41:15"How do people unintentionally push away
1:41:18the love they want most?" Because people
1:41:21end up trying to make somebody the
1:41:24person who's going to fill it all for
1:41:26them, complete them, do it all for them,
1:41:28when really we're supposed to do half
1:41:30that job for ourselves, too. Otherwise,
1:41:32we can't receive it properly from
1:41:33anybody, and we too put too much
1:41:34pressure. And fifth and final question
1:41:36we ask this to every guest who's ever
1:41:37been on the show, if you could create
1:41:39one law that everyone in the world had
1:41:41to follow, what would it be? It would be
1:41:44for people to learn about their own
1:41:46subconscious conditioning and how to
1:41:48rewire it because unless we deal with
1:41:51things at the subconscious level, we'll
1:41:53always set intentions or say we're going
1:41:54to do things and then we'll often feel
1:41:56so defeated. It was a big part of what I
1:41:57went through trying to get sober
1:41:59originally, like what the heck is going
1:42:01on and I just I think that's the key
1:42:02that unlocks so much for people in a
1:42:03deep way.
1:42:05The book is called The New Attachment
1:42:06Theory: Heal Every Relationship by
1:42:09Rewiring Your Brain and Nervous System.
1:42:11Taye Gibson, if anyone wants to learn
1:42:13more about you, follow you, connect with
1:42:15your work, commit to the program, where
1:42:17should they go so that they don't miss
1:42:19out on doing this work? So they can go
1:42:21to personaldevelopmentschool.com.
1:42:23We have these really in-depth reports
1:42:24people can get on their attachment style
1:42:26and take our free quiz and it goes over
1:42:28all of your pillars and your whole
1:42:29profile and then I am also all of our
1:42:31programs are through there and I'm also
1:42:33on YouTube which is Taye Gibson -
1:42:35personaldevelopmentschool or at the
1:42:37personal developments school on
1:42:39Instagram and I just want to say thank
1:42:41you so much for having me. You're a
1:42:42phenomenal host. I just honestly felt so
1:42:45connected to to you and chatting and and
1:42:47thank you for for bringing all this out
1:42:49of me and and letting me share. No, I I
1:42:52said this to you earlier. Thank you for
1:42:53being a a resource that I can direct uh
1:42:55people to who I I really feel this is
1:42:58such a foundational thing for the having
1:42:59a successful life like relationships,
1:43:02dating, work, it's everything. So Taye,
1:43:04thank you so much.
1:43:05>> Thank you so much. Thank you.
1:43:07>> uh and I'm excited to have you back on
1:43:08soon. Thank you.
1:43:09>> Thank you. If you enjoyed this
1:43:11conversation, you'll love my episode
1:43:13with the world's leading relationship
1:43:15therapist Esther Perel, where we talk
1:43:18about why your ego is ruining your
1:43:21relationships and how to date more
1:43:23effectively.
1:43:24>> I think we need to differentiate. Are
1:43:25you looking for chemistry for a love
1:43:27story or are you looking for chemistry
1:43:29for a life story?

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