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Regime change? Inside Reza Pahlavi’s faltering bid to lead Iran | Reuters Interviews — Transcript

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0:00Raise up Pauly. Welcome. Thank you for
0:02speaking to Reuters today in Paris. Over
0:05the past four months, we have
0:06interviewed more than 50 people,
0:08including eight of your current and
0:10former associates for our story about
0:12you. Our audience always benefits when
0:15the subject of our reporting agrees to
0:17answer questions. So, thank you again.
0:19>> Thank you for giving me the opportunity.
0:21>> Sure. So, my first question is this. you
0:25you've been campaigning in Europe and
0:27the United States, giving speeches,
0:30raising money, and meeting with elected
0:32officials to lead a transitional
0:34government in Iran. Yet, the Trump
0:37administration does not seem to support
0:39you. So, given all this, what is your
0:41route to return to Iran and how soon do
0:44you think regime change can actually be
0:46achieved?
0:47>> This uh campaign
0:50started as a lifetime mission to
0:52liberate Iran 46 years ago.
0:55And it has never been about me. It's
0:56been about the Iranian people and their
0:58right to self-determination, which is
1:01exactly what this is all about. It is
1:03not for a foreign government to decide
1:06who or what should be the alternative
1:08for Iran. That's up to the Iranian
1:10people. I've never asked for any for any
1:13kind of endorsement from any uh leader
1:17or governments. My entire mission in
1:19life and I've said it time and again is
1:22to see to it that the people of Iran
1:24will have that chance in the future
1:26which determines what's the function of
1:29transition postreime collapse so we can
1:32have a constitutional assembly to debate
1:36whatever final secular democratic form
1:39of course needs to take place and let
1:41the people of Iran choose.
1:42>> But from where we're sitting today when
1:44do you think regime change might occur?
1:47I think we're very close to it. And the
1:49reason I say this is because first and
1:51foremost, the regime is at its weakest
1:53it's ever been since 47 years. Not to
1:56mention the fact that in terms of
1:58legitimacy, it has totally lost any
2:01remaining possible legitimacy it might
2:04have had in the sense that many
2:06governments in all these four decades
2:09have always followed the method of
2:11appeasement with the hope for behavior
2:13change and somehow contribute to
2:15legitimizing the regime.
2:17>> Let me ask you about some of your the
2:19statements you've made though. He he
2:21said in July 2024 you spoke to the
2:23National Conservatism Conference in
2:25Washington and you said quote my friends
2:28we are not seeking your intervention.
2:31Then this year in midFebruary you called
2:34on Washington to attack Iran telling
2:36Reuters that quote intervention is a way
2:39to save lives. And then once the war
2:41began you told Fox News that quote this
2:44is the gamecher we've been waiting for
2:46all this time. So what caused your view
2:49on intervention to change between 2024
2:52and 2026?
2:53>> January 8th and 9th.
2:55>> Okay.
2:57>> When you're living dealing with that
3:00level of massacre, it changes the entire
3:05uh prospect of things. Until a long time
3:09I said we don't need to have any
3:10intervention. Let the Iranian people be
3:12empowered. I've said for years,
3:15diplomacy doesn't work. War is not the
3:18solution. You you are only left with a
3:21third way, and that is empowering the
3:23people of Iran. That's something I've
3:24been saying for the at least the last 20
3:26years all over Europe and the United
3:28States. What did change was what
3:31happened on January 8th. And at that
3:34case I said look this intervention can
3:36actually help save more lives that would
3:38otherwise also so it's really a matter
3:40of trying to protect uh more lives from
3:43being lost under this regime that he's
3:45demonstrating that he has no no limit in
3:47terms of how far he's willing to go to
3:48kill his own citizenry. We interviewed a
3:50congressman who described you as
3:52articulate, humble, and presidential.
3:55But as I'm sure you're aware, you also
3:57have your critics. And I don't want to
3:59make you feel uncomfortable, but you
4:01know, some people point out that you've
4:02never had a salary job, that you lack
4:05critical leadership skills. [music]
4:08Scott Anderson, author of King of Kings:
4:10The Iranian Revolution, said that you
4:13live in a kind of royalist bubble. And
4:15quote, "Everything I've always heard
4:17about him from people in the Iranian
4:19diaspora [music] is that he's kind of a
4:20lightweight. Your main credential seems
4:23to be heredity. You're the son of the
4:24last Sha. So what what is your response
4:26to this? I'm sure you've heard some of
4:28this [music] before. You you haven't set
4:30foot in Iran in 48 years. Your father
4:32went into exile after a popular uprising
4:35against his autocratic rule. What
4:38qualifications do you believe you have
4:40to lead a transitional government in
4:42Iran?
4:43>> Well, if if an attorney decides to take
4:45a case pro bono, does this mean that he
4:48doesn't have a job?
4:50I've been doing this voluntarily for
4:53free for four decades, right?
4:55>> As my sacrifice for the sake of my
4:58country, I could have easily decided
5:00back in Cairo when my father passed
5:02away, you know what to hell with it. I
5:04can pursue like many others a life,
5:08business, other things. Not that they
5:11didn't have connections, not that they
5:13didn't have people, but I decided to
5:15stay in it for the sake of my country
5:20that I think in terms of civilization,
5:22in terms of culture, in terms of what
5:24they can offer the world deserve much
5:28better than this regime and this
5:31government. So, it's been a personal
5:33sacrifice of for a lifetime.
5:36As far as track record, I think that's
5:38part of the reason today's youth in Iran
5:41that have followed me for these 46 years
5:44and have seen what I've said, what I've
5:46done, judge me by my own action. Has
5:49nothing to do with the past. Yes, I
5:51happen to have the path name. And by the
5:53way, that's a positive. That's what
5:55people are chanting on the streets. Now,
5:57people are entitled to their opinion.
5:59Some people may not like my face. Some
6:01people may think that I should be doing
6:02this and that. I'm only honest with my
6:05own thoughts and principle and trying to
6:06be the best I can with what I can and I
6:09try to bring as many elements that I
6:11believe can be supportive in getting the
6:13job done across the board. That is what
6:16I've been spending all my time doing by
6:18interacting with members of our
6:20community, with the diaspora, with
6:22people inside Iran and of course the
6:24foreign component of it. Friends of
6:26Iran, those who believe that Iran does
6:29not deserve to live in the dark ages as
6:32we have and remember an Iran that was
6:35prosperous, that was flourishing, uh
6:38their contribution to arts, to music, to
6:40science, you name it. And I think this
6:43is exactly why people are going on the
6:45streets today sacrificing their lives
6:48for a better future. You never can have
6:50100% of everybody's support. There's
6:52always going to be some exception, but I
6:54think for the most part, I'm enjoying uh
6:57a lot of support across the board,
6:58inside and outside of Iran.
7:00>> I want to talk a little bit about your
7:01framework that you released last year
7:03about a transition government. Um, it
7:05calls for a referendum, I think, within
7:086 months, that that could result in a
7:10parliamentary monarchy or republic. Are
7:13you ruling out becoming the monarch if
7:15if that's what the Iranian people want?
7:18>> Well, I'm telling you, I'm not running
7:19for office. That that has never been my
7:21preoccupation. And, you know, it also
7:23depends on on on at the end what it is
7:25that best serves the country's purpose.
7:27At this point, I'm not focused about
7:29post referendum. My only focus right now
7:33should be and is how do we get to that
7:35final point? One of my roles is to unite
7:38people.
7:41I cannot unite people by representing an
7:44an alternative in terms of the final
7:47product as opposed to the process
7:50because that's always divisive.
7:52>> That's why I'm telling you don't look at
7:54me as the candidate running for office.
7:56look at me as somebody who's provide you
7:58an avenue to that future irrespective of
8:01what your final vote will be.
8:02>> Okay. Well, I want to get to the issue
8:04of unifying the the opposition soon. Um,
8:08but I want to first focus on what you
8:10your activities like, you know, in in
8:12recent months. Uh, I've spoken to some
8:14of your financial backers who are part
8:17of a group that have donated more than
8:18$3 million to your to you um and I guess
8:22your campaign and they say they've grown
8:26disillusioned with you for for the
8:28following reasons. That you didn't
8:30immediately strongly criticize President
8:32Trump's social media post that quote we
8:34are blasting Iran into oblivion or as
8:38they say back to the stone ages. I know
8:40you later did an answer to journalist
8:42questions, but you didn't like
8:43immediately post something about it that
8:46you haven't forcefully condemned some of
8:47the more radical supporters violence
8:50against and the harassment of other
8:52Iranian dissident and and they believe
8:55that you haven't tried hard enough to
8:56unify Iran's deeply divided opposition.
9:00They also say that they raised these
9:02with with you face well not face to face
9:04in private calls calls with you but to
9:07their frustration you you haven't taken
9:09their advice. So what what is your
9:12response to that? Well let me first
9:14start with the I guess you would call
9:16them benefactors. I'm not going to
9:19change the mission based on the
9:21benefactor's expectation that I pay you
9:24but you have to do X Y and Z. That's not
9:26the way it works.
9:27>> Well there were two things. One is that
9:29you haven't tried hard enough to unify
9:30Iran's deeply divided opposition and
9:33that they've raised these issues with
9:36you and and and that you and that you've
9:38haven't taken their advice.
9:39>> Well, I think that for the last at least
9:42two years I've been extremely active in
9:46broadening the tent so to speak. In
9:48fact, I don't think I haven't had such a
9:51broad array of diverse representative of
9:54the Iranian opposition gathered under
9:56one roof from all walks of life,
9:59ideologies.
10:00In fact, I've reached out to people who
10:03were at the time my father's worst
10:06enemies. Today, they are fully on board
10:09working with me. I'm talking about
10:10former Marxists people who used to be
10:12member of the Tudday party, the Fedal
10:15organization, former MEK members. I
10:19don't know how far more can you stretch
10:21the tent, including those people to
10:23prove that in fact there is much more
10:26unity than ever. Certainly inside Iran,
10:29there's there's never going to be a
10:31perfect uh coalition. But I think that
10:35I've extended this stand pretty large
10:36and I don't know how how much uh the
10:39people who make such statement have
10:40actually followed are aware of the
10:43meetings I've had and the gatherings
10:44that I've had but I can assure you this
10:46has been u my efforts uh all the time in
10:50the space of a few months earlier this
10:51year selfidentified supporters of yours
10:55um beat up a Kurdish reporter in London
10:58hospitalizing him uh and intimidated
11:00restaurant owners in London and Vienna
11:02demanding they display Iran's pre
11:05pre-revolution lion and sun flag. Uh at
11:08a meeting of the Iran Freedom Conference
11:10in London, some attendees were advised
11:12to leave via the basement because of
11:14fears of violence. Uh when one attendee
11:17left on foot anyway, he was batted upon.
11:19There were other instances at CPAC in
11:21Texas in March where one opposition
11:24activist was told by one of your
11:25supporters they would run her over in a
11:28truck if she didn't chant uh Javit Sha.
11:31Police in the Hague are investigating
11:32claims your supporters were have
11:34harassed and threatened dissolence
11:36there. We want to show you just a quick,
11:38this is very quick, but the Kurdish
11:41journalist who who was hospitalized.
11:53>> We're not standing around, are we? Come
11:55on, let's walk.
11:57>> Yeah. What is your response to it? I
12:00believe in pluralism. I believe in
12:02tolerance. I believe in civility, in
12:06debate, in argument, in comportment,
12:09respect and no hostility of any kind or
12:13no brutality of any kind. That goes for
12:16everyone.
12:18Anybody who claims to be my supporter
12:20has to understand that these are the
12:23guidelines. And anyone who would violate
12:25this guidelines a I don't consider a
12:28supporter and I'll be the first to
12:30condemn that behavior and if their
12:33behavior is criminal that they will face
12:35the full penalty of the law in any
12:37country in which s violation has
12:38occurred. Let me be very clear about
12:41that. And finally, I would also say that
12:44don't forget that the regime has also a
12:47lot of plants, a lot of a provocator, as
12:50the French will say, agitators
12:52masquerading as supporters of this or
12:54that group to create in fact this kind
12:58of conflicts.
12:59>> You know, these aren't isolated
13:00incidents. You know, there's a pattern
13:02of behavior amongst your supporters and
13:04it's it's violent.
13:06>> As I said, I condemn it. I distance
13:09myself from that. I don't justify it. I
13:12don't condone it. And in fact, I ask for
13:13whatever authority it is to uh face have
13:16them face um uh the crime they've
13:19committed. You cannot just go and start
13:22uh brutalizing people. It's it's well
13:25beyond just the ethics and the moral
13:27conduct of it. But it's also it has
13:29implications. We have to be respectful.
13:32How could we possibly guarantee the
13:34Iranian people in the future that be
13:36protected under the law and they'll be
13:38justice if they that they they conduct
13:40themselves in this way and they want to
13:42be advocates uh of of of a future based
13:45on violence and retribution? Of course
13:47not. I want to ask you um something I'm
13:50hoping you'll address and this is a
13:52criticism that's also again from some of
13:54your financial backers that you haven't
13:57tamped down on some of the harsh
13:58rhetoric of some of your closest
14:00adviserss. So one example in January say
14:04Gasam Minad he posted this on X you're
14:08either with Prince Raza Pality or with
14:11the Islamic Republic if you're weakening
14:13the field commander for any reason
14:15whatsoever you're an agent of the enemy.
14:17Also, and I know that I apologize
14:20because I know this is going to be a bit
14:21awkward, but your wife Yasmin has also
14:24drawn criticism for some of her remarks
14:27and social media posts about other
14:29Iranian dissonance. She reposted on
14:31Instagram an image of an Iranian
14:33protester holding a sign reading, "Death
14:35to the three corrupts, Mullers,
14:37Leftisters, and Mua Muja." I'm sure
14:40you've seen this. Um, and she repeated
14:43the slogan in in her own caption. So I
14:49realized it's some
14:50>> Well, first of all, what what I know
14:52about this one in particular is this was
14:54a picture generated from inside Iran.
14:57She's during the woman life freedom
14:59movement.
15:00>> She took it as a spontaneous uh act
15:03there. When we realized what it was said
15:06in that, she immediately took it down.
15:08>> Right. And she said later to clarify
15:10that of course I'm not advocating
15:12violence or death to this or that. So
15:14she said that on the record. So it would
15:16be unfair to say that she she never took
15:19a position on that. As far as every
15:21single statement made by my team, we are
15:24uh certainly uh establishing a much
15:27stricter protocol uh now in terms of uh
15:31uh to what extent
15:33uh people who are closely associated
15:35with me have to be able to censor
15:38themselves which is very unfair to begin
15:40with because it's a violation of free
15:43speech but at the same time you can no
15:45longer act independently. You have to be
15:47much more careful about what been said
15:49or not. And you know, understand one
15:52thing. I know Sasamad and others on my
15:55team. Some of them have lived the
15:57toughest possible ordeal to get to where
15:59they are today. They've been in jail in
16:01Iran. They've been tortured by the very
16:04same regime that are fighting for today.
16:07And so, you have to understand that a
16:09lot of it could be uh humanly
16:11understandable in terms of pent up
16:13frustration, what have you. I'm not
16:15saying that they should not curb some of
16:18their statements and I've already talked
16:19to them about that. Hopefully that will
16:21be corrected. But you have to understand
16:23the sentiments out there. People in Iran
16:26are on the edge of revenge almost are
16:30vengeful.
16:31>> I want to ask you um about the recent
16:33murder of Masud Masjudi um who by the
16:37way was a supporter of yours up up until
16:39a certain point. He was he was a member
16:41of Forest Guard. Um and he he was an
16:44academic who lived near Vancouver and he
16:48became a critic of yours as I assume
16:50you're aware and he sued you in in 2024
16:53with in two separate cases [music] and
16:56he alleged that you had directed cyber
16:58attacks on pro-democracy Iranian
17:01activists. [music] And let me preface
17:03this by saying that there's no evidence
17:04at all that you had anything to do with
17:06his his murder. That's not why I'm
17:09bringing this up. Um, [music] the
17:11Canadian prosecutors have charged two of
17:13your supporters with with murdering him.
17:16Um, what I'd like to ask you first is
17:19whether you knew Mr. Mus Judy or not.
17:22>> I don't recall at all uh any meetings or
17:26discussions. I mean, you know, thousands
17:28of people over the years have been
17:29participating in Zoom calls or what have
17:32you. He may have been in the mix.
17:34Honestly, I don't recall. But that's not
17:36the point. The point is this is tragic
17:38what has happened and whoever was
17:40responsible for this murder ought to be
17:42uh facing a court of law and be uh uh
17:46judge for for the crime they've
17:47committed. Just two things on the Mass
17:49Judy case. So when you said when you
17:52signed two sworn affidavit, you said I I
17:55do not I do not know the plaintiff
17:58Massud Masjudy. And we you know we found
18:00a he posted on YouTube an audio Zoom
18:04call he had with you in 2021. It's 18
18:07minutes long of him speaking to you.
18:09>> It's possible. As I said at the time I
18:11said I did not recall because it's not
18:13like I have one Zoom call every 5 years.
18:15>> Okay.
18:15>> I have a Zoom call maybe twice a week
18:17with thousands of people in the mix. So
18:20honestly remembering who was there and
18:22said something is not there. Sometimes
18:24people come in there not even with their
18:25own name. So my honest answer was at the
18:28time and I I still say the same thing. I
18:30really do not recall having had any
18:32specific conversation with this
18:33individual.
18:34>> So I want to ask you about your
18:35relationship with the IRGC because this
18:37is brought up in the mass Judy case as
18:39well.
18:39>> Relationship that's a big word. Now you
18:42you said in an interview in 2018 on Iran
18:45International that you've had dialogues
18:47with them and Bas um and then you've
18:51also more recently asked you know some
18:52of them to defect um what exactly is
18:56your position on the IRGC
18:58>> right after the green movement and
19:01closer to the timeline where the women
19:06life freedom movement kicked in
19:09uh I began receiving some
19:12you know DMs in my social media by
19:16elements that say you know I'm a basi in
19:18Mashhatad or I'm a member of the IRGC in
19:23such and such country we hate this
19:25regime we're not with them we're looking
19:27for an opportunity to to break away blah
19:30blah blah it was really a casual and
19:32when I said to the media that I'm in
19:35touch with elements like that it was in
19:37that context it's not that I in fact
19:39talking to the RGC see uh command not at
19:42all but there were elements of the
19:44passage of the sepa of course the
19:47military as well that would communicate
19:49with me um you know discreetly and
19:52obviously as a sign that you know what
19:54you know this is what the deal is one of
19:57these days there could be elements that
20:00are part of the military or the
20:02paramilitary force or the civilian
20:04bureaucracy of this very regime
20:07that may want to peel way and are not
20:12criminally responsible to have blood on
20:14their hands. Let's be clear on that. You
20:18know, when when you have to do your
20:19military service, you have the option to
20:20serve in the military or SEO. This is
20:22what many of the youth had to go
20:24through. Does that make them criminals?
20:27Not necessarily. And to detach the bulk
20:32of them from the top corrupt leadership
20:33that are directly implicated with those
20:36atrocities and that violence and that
20:37repression, you have to be able to
20:39detach the same thing. When you look at
20:41the second world war and at the end of
20:43the second world war, you had the
20:44Nuremberg trials, right? You put on
20:47prosecuted the top leaders of the Third
20:50Reich, but I don't think that it was
20:53meant to go after every single soldier
20:54that served in the German army in the
20:57same sense. And especially when you look
20:59further at what happened in Iraq after
21:04debathification
21:05and part of the reason why regime change
21:09has gotten a bad name in the west. Why
21:12was it? Because it was so poorly
21:15implemented and executed in Afghanistan
21:18and particularly in Iraq where the
21:21Republican guards were sent home. Half
21:23of them ended up becoming ISIS fighters.
21:25M
21:26>> I didn't want that to be repeated in the
21:27case of Iran
21:28>> in Iran.
21:29>> So let me let me let me complete this
21:31and uh to to to to give you the
21:33evolution of thinking
21:36and I said okay so we need to make sure
21:38that there's always an exit strategy
21:42available against dressing for those who
21:44are not responsible for murder or
21:46criminal behavior. That should be even
21:48even the transitional justice I think
21:50that's part of the thing we're going to
21:51look at. But then sepa started acting
21:55far more violently. SEPA started to
21:58become an actual instrument and an
22:00obstacle not only in against their own
22:03citizenry. The proxy wars extending all
22:06the way to the western hemisphere at
22:08which point and for at least the last 10
22:10years I've been one of the first
22:13advocate of prescribing the IOGC as a
22:15terrorist organization for two reasons.
22:17number one is in fact their behavior is
22:20nothing short of being terror at home
22:23and abroad and as a means of our
22:26approach to my five-point plan of action
22:29that includes maximum pressure on the
22:31regime. One of them is putting more
22:34pressure on the regime by procribing the
22:37RGC, which is the key element that holds
22:39this regime in place. And I've asked
22:41that and I've campaigned for it for the
22:43past few years in Europe in particular.
22:45But even in recent months when I was in
22:47Britain and I've asked the same question
22:48from former
22:50British prime ministers, why is it that
22:54your government has not prescribed the
22:56IRGC? And they give their answer. But
22:59I've been a very strong advocate for
23:00putting IGC on the list.
23:03Why? Because I thought that this is now
23:05a moment where they are no longer uh
23:10they're an actual impediment and
23:12obstacle to our liberation. And for that
23:14reason they have to be categorized as an
23:16element that is a menace not just to our
23:18own citizenry but are now an actual
23:20threat to uh foreign um um civilians,
23:26British citizens, German citizens,
23:28Swedish citizens, journalists, members
23:30of the LGBT community, the Jewish
23:33community, so on and so forth. So to be
23:35clear, you think there are elements
23:36within the IRGC that can be
23:38rehabilitated.
23:39>> If you've been directly responsible for
23:42calling for people to be massacred and
23:44murdered, that's an unforgivable crime.
23:47What the penalty is, that's not for me
23:49to decide. That's for uh the future
23:52judicial system and whatever is the law
23:54of the land at the time. What is the
23:56punishment for that kind of behavior?
23:59But at the same time, what I'm saying is
24:01that there are various degrees of
24:04culpability.
24:06>> There have been reports, they're kind of
24:08anonymous, that you've received funding
24:09from Israel and Saudi Arabia. Is that
24:12true?
24:13>> Absolutely false. I have not been a
24:15recipient of any governmental or public
24:18fund on the outside. Every dime that
24:22comes to my campaign comes from private
24:24donations of supporters. Hopefully,
24:26we'll have more benefactors that give us
24:28bigger checks.
24:29>> Unless there's something else that we
24:31haven't brought up that you'd like to
24:33address. I have absolute confidence that
24:35once we are liberated,
24:37all of these
24:39areas of of darkness or negativity will
24:42will completely uh disappear. I have
24:45faith in that. If I didn't, I wouldn't
24:47bother with this, honestly. So, maybe
24:48we're not made for it. Maybe we don't
24:50deserve any better. maybe you know as
24:53one of the saying goes you judge uh
24:55people by the governments they have but
24:57in this case it's an exception Iran was
24:59occupied by a regime that from day one
25:03wage war against us as a nation and and
25:06this is not us and so that's why I think
25:09that the a regime that celebrates
25:12martyrdom and calls for violence is not
25:14representative of Iranians that are
25:17peaceful and and want that and and that
25:20defines exact exactly our campaign, how
25:23we differ from the people currently
25:25occupying our country and whether I'm
25:28around or not, whether I get to Iran one
25:31day or not.
25:34Look at the forest
25:37and the 92 million strong nation that
25:39waits to be part of a free world and
25:41they deserve to be there and that's what
25:43I'm fighting for.
25:44>> Raali, thanks so much again for speaking
25:47with Reuters today.
25:48>> Thank you both.
25:51>> [music]

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